what innovative changes can you do to reinvegorate the spiderman mythos?

[GoldenAgeHero]

please do not list giving him a baby or bringing back ben reilly. i stories, taht has to deal with his persona.

[Darthphere]

Stop being Tony's *****. Make him the working man's hero again. Bring him back to his roots. First would be get off New Avengers and move out of Avengers Tower. Become someone we can relate to again. SHow more of his teaching side. Damn, show him struggling with both of his lives. Mostly, no more emo SPider-Man.

[Zoken]

Well I mentioned under the "OYL" thread that Peter, not Spider-Man but Peter, be invited/abducted by a "Think-Tank" headed by Doc Ock, the Mad Thinker, Dr. Doom, and Mr. Sinister. they would tell him that his test show the potenial for true genius intellect, and that they wish him to join them in creating a world without "Moronic, judgmental, false Champion" (They want to get rid of super-heroes). Peter prepares to say yes, just to spy on them, but then Dr. Doom instructs Otto to tell Peter the extremely interesting information they liberated from Osborne Industries. a memo regarding "Subject M.G.P" saying that "She is currently three years old and reading on a third grade level. the X-Gene has been detected, and they are proceeding with Mr. Osborne's instructions." Peter quickly realizes that "M.G.P." could very well be "May Gwendolyn Parker". Peter is given shown the possiblity that his daughter may be alive.

This generates more and more problems as Peter can't risk telling any of the Avengers about this, or even MJ, as These people mention that they have been watching him for some time. They don't yet realize he's Spider-Man, though Doom is dropping frightening hints that he may know. They also talk about other members such as Wilbur Day and Herman Shultz, but they are mentioned to be "Lower eschelon members." Otto seems to wish Peter to be there as an ally and a confidant. Even Otto realizes that he is in a room with snakes. He wants one person to trust.

[Darthphere]

Well I mentioned under the "OYL" thread that Peter, not Spider-Man but Peter, be invited/abducted by a "Think-Tank" headed by Doc Ock, the Mad Thinker, Dr. Doom, and Mr. Sinister. they would tell him that his test show the potenial for true genius intellect, and that they wish him to join them in creating a world without "Moronic, judgmental, false Champion" (They want to get rid of super-heroes). Peter prepares to say yes, just to spy on them, but then Dr. Doom instructs Otto to tell Peter the extremely interesting information they liberated from Osborne Industries. a memo regarding "Subject M.G.P" saying that "She is currently three years old and reading on a third grade level. the X-Gene has been detected, and they are proceeding with Mr. Osborne's instructions." Peter quickly realizes that "M.G.P." could very well be "May Gwendolyn Parker". Peter is given shown the possiblity that his daughter may be alive.

This generates more and more problems as Peter can't risk telling any of the Avengers about this, or even MJ, as These people mention that they have been watching him for some time. They don't yet realize he's Spider-Man, though Doom is dropping frightening hints that he may know. They also talk about other members such as Wilbur Day and Herman Shultz, but they are mentioned to be "Lower eschelon members." Otto seems to wish Peter to be there as an ally and a confidant. Even Otto realizes that he is in a room with snakes. He wants one person to trust.


Sounds like its complicating things instead of simplifying.

[Zoken]

I don't want to simplify it. Peter's appeal to me has always been that he can barely handle his life, and he's gotten pretty comfortable these days, so I want to throw a monkey wrench in there. also, the "Baby May" promises that the Think Tank throws out to lure Peter in, never really solidify. infact they might have just made the whole thing up to get Peter in on this. this allows Baby May's status to remain unconfirmed, and still string Peter along.

[roach]

Nothing. The problem with the books now is that they are trying to be too innovative and in the process are messing with what makes Spiderman great. The only changes I'd make is to make his foes more of a threat and less of a joke. I like the idea that he is a subsitute teacher and would keep that and his marriage. Other than that I would move forward. Also I think I'd end his obsession with Gwen. He's married to this hot chick and still thinks about his old girlfriend...I think not.

[GoldenAgeHero]

Nothing. The problem with the books now is that they are trying to be too innovative and in the process are messing with what makes Spiderman great. The only changes I'd make is to make his foes more of a threat and less of a joke. I like the idea that he is a subsitute teacher and would keep that and his marriage. Other than that I would move forward. Also I think I'd end his obsession with Gwen. He's married to this hot chick and still thinks about his old girlfriend...I think not.

more like ****ty story telling to me.

[Darthphere]

Nothing. The problem with the books now is that they are trying to be too innovative and in the process are messing with what makes Spiderman great. The only changes I'd make is to make his foes more of a threat and less of a joke. I like the idea that he is a subsitute teacher and would keep that and his marriage. Other than that I would move forward. Also I think I'd end his obsession with Gwen. He's married to this hot chick and still thinks about his old girlfriend...I think not.


Yeah the Gwen thing is old. In Marvel time what almost 10 years has passed? It gets to the point where it seems a mourning period will last 20 years in the MU.

[roach]

so on my run Peter wont pine for Gwen or wont hang out at the bridge that she fell from

[GoldenAgeHero]

so on my run Peter wont pine for Gwen or wont hang out at the bridge that she fell from

well it makes perfect since to me that he wont go near the bridge, hell when my sister died, my mom had to move out the house it reminded her too muc of my sister. you have no idea how many night i woke up to my mom crying. so i feel for pete with the whole bridge.

[The Question]

Way I see it, bring back baby May. Make him a dad. That's progression for ya'. And retcon out Aunt May's return from the dead. Her death was a great moment in Spider-Man history.

[deemar325]

I'd finally prove that the whole totem mess was Anasi the Spider God messing with Peter this whole time with Morlun and all the JMS crap. The kicker being that Anasi was Ezekiel and that he was the actual spider that bite Peter all those years ago.

Ezekiel apologizes to Peter and explains why he was screwing with his life, Ezekiel has been watching Peter since the beginning and thought Peter wasn't being careful or responsible with his powers (Gwen's death, Green Goblin's manipulations of him etc...) so Ezekiel/Anasi just wanted to give Pete a wake-up call.

So Anasi undoes all the (JMS crap! weird powers and stingers.) He let's Peter know that the 'Sins Past' crap was fake. Norman set the whole thing up, when MJ disappeared and was pregnant, actually she wasn't and Norman made her believe the 'Sins Past' garbage.


Peter is now happy and relieved and decides to stay an Avenger, but he tells Tony to f-ck off.

Dan Slott takes over writing Spider-man and JMS goes away forever.

[GoldenAgeHero]

I'd finally prove that the whole totem mess was Anasi the Spider God messing with Peter this whole time with Morlun and all the JMS crap. The kicker being that Anasi was Ezekiel and that he was the actual spider that bite Peter all those years ago.

Ezekiel apologizes to Peter and explains why he was screwing with his life, Ezekiel has been watching Peter since the beginning and thought Peter wasn't being careful or responsible with his powers (Gwen's death, Green Goblin's manipulations of him etc...) so Ezekiel/Anasi just wanted to give Pete a wake-up call.

So Anasi undoes all the (JMS crap! weird powers and stingers.) He let's Peter know that the 'Sins Past' crap was fake. Norman set the whole thing up, when MJ disappeared and was pregnant, actually she wasn't and Norman made her believe the 'Sins Past' garbage.


Peter is now happy and relieved and decides to stay an Avenger, but he tells Tony to f-ck off.

Dan Slott takes over writing Spider-man and JMS goes away forever.


finally someone who thinks jms as a douchebag. he's good with supreme powers, but he should never tocuh the MU characters again.

[deemar325]

^ Thanks, I just think it's time for someone else to take on Spidey who's not a egotistical tv writer.

[Darthphere]

finally someone who thinks jms as a douchebag. he's good with supreme powers, but he should never tocuh the MU characters again.


His FF is pretty good, and when hes not doing this totem garbage his Spider-Man is top notch, oh and the Gwen Stacy stuff too. I dont nkow what the hell he was smoking and what every editor involved with the Spider-Man titles was thinking. Its like having a mini where Aunt May and Uncle Ben go to the beach and have lots of sex and a pregnancy scare......:(

[deemar325]

Way I see it, bring back baby May. Make him a dad. That's progression for ya'. And retcon out Aunt May's return from the dead. Her death was a great moment in Spider-Man history.


I'm not to keen on that idea, I don't want to age Peter to much. Keep him young, having a kid screws up continuity.

[The Question]

I really liked the totem stuff. I don't get the distain for it.

[The Question]

I'm not to keen on that idea, I do want to age Peter to much. Keep him young, having a kid screws up continuity.


How does it screw continuity? It screws up continuity to keep him the prepetual fresh from college newlywed.

[Darthphere]

I really liked the totem stuff. I don't get the distain for it.


It goes against almost 50 years of continuity? It be the same as saying Superman being a genetic experiment done by Jor-El.

[deemar325]

Nothing. The problem with the books now is that they are trying to be too innovative and in the process are messing with what makes Spiderman great. The only changes I'd make is to make his foes more of a threat and less of a joke. I like the idea that he is a subsitute teacher and would keep that and his marriage. Other than that I would move forward. Also I think I'd end his obsession with Gwen. He's married to this hot chick and still thinks about his old girlfriend...I think not.

:up: Agree.

[The Question]

It goes against almost 50 years of continuity? It be the same as saying Superman being a genetic experiment done by Jor-El.


Except, it doesn't change anything. Everything he did as Spider-Man still happened. All it does is reveal something new apbout his origin. How does that go against almost 50 years of continuity?

[deemar325]

How does it screw continuity? It screws up continuity to keep him the prepetual fresh from college newlywed.

I think kids is just a drag in a comic, it sets his timeline in stone somewhat and as the kid ages so does Peter. Not to mention all the crap some writer might toss in with de-aging the kid or forgetting it's a infant or toddler or whatever.

It's a hassel.

[Darthphere]

Except, it doesn't change anything. Everything he did as Spider-Man still happened. All it does is reveal something new apbout his origin. How does that go against almost 50 years of continuity?


Because there is nothing mystical about being bit by a radioactive spider.

[The Question]

I think kids is just a drag in a comic, it sets his timeline in stone somewhat and as the kid ages so does Peter. Not to mention all the crap some writer might toss in with de-aging the kid or forgetting it's a infant or toddler or whatever.

It's a hassel.

It can be dificult, yes. All that requires is that the writers actually try to craft a good story. It'd take some talant.

Because there is nothing mystical about being bit by a radioactive spider.

So? How does that ruin anything?

[Darthphere]

It can be dificult, yes. All that requires is that the writers actually try to craft a good story. It'd take some talant.



So? How does that ruin anything?


Its not part and shouldnt be part of his origin. Peter is just some kid wo was at the wrong place at the wrong time who had to deal with these "gifts" by adding the mystical part, it kind of cheapens the everyman portion of Peter Parker's origin as Spider-Man.

[deemar325]

I really liked the totem stuff. I don't get the distain for it.

It's not so much the Totem as much as it's the way it's told and what it lead to.

Plus Spidey's origin was just fine the way it is, why does it have to go deeper than that? Now it takes away the commoness/randomness of Peter as Spider-man, he's no longer a everyday kid who happened upon his powers now he's some avatar.

It takes away the 'You could've been Spidey, had you been at that science exhibit.' thing about spidey.

[deemar325]

Its not part and shouldnt be part of his origin. Peter is just some kid wo was at the wrong place at the wrong time who had to deal with these "gifts" by adding the mystical part, it kind of cheapens the everyman portion of Peter Parker's origin as Spider-Man.

Agree.

:up:

[The Question]

It's not so much the Totem as much as it's the way it's told and what it lead to.



Plus Spidey's origin was just fine the way it is, why does it have to go deeper than that? Now it takes away the commoness/randomness of Peter as Spider-man, he's no longer a everyday kid who happened upon his powers now he's some avatar.



It takes away the 'You could've been Spidey, had you been at that science exhibit.' thing about spidey.

Thing is, I never saw that as apart of his apeal. And the reason JMS dug deeper, from what I understand, is because he wanted to take Spidey in a new direction. It gets to a point where you have to take the character in a new direction to keep with the good stories.

Its not part and shouldnt be part of his origin. Peter is just some kid wo was at the wrong place at the wrong time who had to deal with these "gifts" by adding the mystical part, it kind of cheapens the everyman portion of Peter Parker's origin as Spider-Man.


How so? The reason he was chosen is because he was an everyman. He knew what it was like to be at the bottom of the barrel, so he'd assuredly always fight his way to the top. Besides, like I said, I wasn't aware that that was supposed to be apart of his apeal.

[Darthphere]

How so? The reason he was chosen is because he was an everyman. He knew what it was like to be at the bottom of the barrel, so he'd assuredly always fight his way to the top.


I dont know what else to say man. Spider-Man has always been a down to earth hero, to add this part that he has some higher calling other than being what he is just seems contrived to me. The fact that this whole part of his origin came out of thin air doesnt help the fact either. Spider-Man has always been street level, the only time he wasnt was the Captain Universe thing, but that wasnt messing with his origin.

[Darthphere]

Thing is, I never saw that as apart of his apeal. And the reason JMS dug deeper, from what I understand, is because he wanted to take Spidey in a new direction. It gets to a point where you have to take the character in a new direction to keep with the good stories.


You have to remember part of his new direction was having Gwen Stacy have pity sex with Norman Osborn and The Other. Quite frankly ill take everyman Spider-Man than New direction JMS Spider-Man.

[Zoken]

no one liked mine... damn.

[The Question]

I dont know what else to say man. Spider-Man has always been a down to earth hero, to add this part that he has some higher calling other than being what he is just seems contrived to me. The fact that this whole part of his origin came out of thin air doesnt help the fact either. Spider-Man has always been street level, the only time he wasnt was the Captain Universe thing, but that wasnt messing with his origin.


Yeah, he is street level. But, sometimes a writer feels that he has to take the character in a new direction, or otherwise he'll just be rehashing old stories. Putting Spider-Man in a new setting (magic and the like) didn't hurt anything for me. Besides, it's not like it was hist first fore into the worlds of the strange and unusual. I have two (rather good) Spider-Man graphic novels, one where he's on a vacation in Scotland and is confronted by ghosts, and the other where he is zapped into a mystical dimension by some weird little gitl. Both were quite good.

You have to remember part of his new direction was having Gwen Stacy have pity sex with Norman Osborn and The Other. Quite frankly ill take everyman Spider-Man than New direction JMS Spider-Man.

I was refering to the Totem stuff, not Sins Past. Sins Past was kind of ****ed up.

[deemar325]

no one liked mine... damn.

In due time Z.


:up: :)

[Darthphere]

Yeah, he is street level. But, sometimes a writer feels that he has to take the character in a new direction, or otherwise he'll just be rehashing old stories. Putting Spider-Man in a new setting (magic and the like) didn't hurt anything for me. Besides, it's not like it was hist first fore into the worlds of the strange and unusual. I have two (rather good) Spider-Man graphic novels, one where he's on a vacation in Scotland and is confronted by ghosts, and the other where he is zapped into a mystical dimension by some weird little gitl. Both were quite good.


And out of continuity. Small stories like that dont bother me though. Messing with an origin does. What youre pretty much is saying is JMS did this for the sake of change. It really doesnt add anything to the character and IMO actually takes away from him. Im down for changes, im not impervious to change. But changing something for the sake of being different, edgy, whatever bothers me. And thats what I feel JMS did.

[deemar325]

Well I mentioned under the "OYL" thread that Peter, not Spider-Man but Peter, be invited/abducted by a "Think-Tank" headed by Doc Ock, the Mad Thinker, Dr. Doom, and Mr. Sinister. they would tell him that his test show the potenial for true genius intellect, and that they wish him to join them in creating a world without "Moronic, judgmental, false Champion" (They want to get rid of super-heroes). Peter prepares to say yes, just to spy on them, but then Dr. Doom instructs Otto to tell Peter the extremely interesting information they liberated from Osborne Industries. a memo regarding "Subject M.G.P" saying that "She is currently three years old and reading on a third grade level. the X-Gene has been detected, and they are proceeding with Mr. Osborne's instructions." Peter quickly realizes that "M.G.P." could very well be "May Gwendolyn Parker". Peter is given shown the possiblity that his daughter may be alive.

This generates more and more problems as Peter can't risk telling any of the Avengers about this, or even MJ, as These people mention that they have been watching him for some time. They don't yet realize he's Spider-Man, though Doom is dropping frightening hints that he may know. They also talk about other members such as Wilbur Day and Herman Shultz, but they are mentioned to be "Lower eschelon members." Otto seems to wish Peter to be there as an ally and a confidant. Even Otto realizes that he is in a room with snakes. He wants one person to trust.

I'm not feeling it Z.

[The Question]

And out of continuity.

Are you sure about that?

Small stories like that dont bother me though. Messing with an origin does. What youre pretty much is saying is JMS did this for the sake of change. It really doesnt add anything to the character and IMO actually takes away from him. Im down for changes, im not impervious to change. But changing something for the sake of being different, edgy, whatever bothers me. And thats what I feel JMS did.

I didn't say he did it for the sake of being different and edgy. I think it was more along the lines of, he wanted to tell the story with the totem stuff because he thought it was a good story. And it didn't fundamentally change the character. It just said that there was something he didn't know about. And really, it did make for a pretty sweet read.

[Darthphere]

Are you sure about that?


No.:(

[deemar325]

And out of continuity. Small stories like that dont bother me though. Messing with an origin does. What youre pretty much is saying is JMS did this for the sake of change. It really doesnt add anything to the character and IMO actually takes away from him. Im down for changes, im not impervious to change. But changing something for the sake of being different, edgy, whatever bothers me. And thats what I feel JMS did.

Agree, at to the fact JMS seems to take pleasure in rubbing it in the fans faces, that he can get away with tarnishing Spidey.

Sins Past was totally uncalled for, it really spat on the legacy of Gwen and Stan Lee as a writer creator of Spidey and Gwen.

[GoldenAgeHero]

i truelly dont feel JMS changing his origins added anything to the mythos at all. it's just contrived writing. and deemar was right it really cheapened the whole appeal of peter recieving these random powers, and question, how could you not know it was part of his appeal, hell the animated series focused on that a few times and stan has pointed it out.

[The Question]

and question, how could you not know it was part of his appeal, hell the animated series focused on that a few times and stan has pointed it out.


I just never saw it. And didn't the animated series have this whole deal about how Spidey was "destined for great things"?

[deemar325]

i truelly dont feel JMS changing his origins added anything to the mythos at all. it's just contrived writing. and deemar was right it really cheapened the whole appeal of peter recieving these random powers, and question, how could you not know it was part of his appeal, hell the animated series focused on that a few times and stan has pointed it out.

:up: :)

Homey you black in the fold again.

[Darthphere]

I just never saw it. And didn't the animated series have this whole deal about how Spidey was "destined for great things"?


That was for Secret Wars if I recall correctly, it really didnt revolve around that the whole series.

[The Question]

They said it in other stuff besides the Secret Wars aswell.

[Darthphere]

They said it in other stuff besides the Secret Wars aswell.


No I mean, Madame Web was "training" him for Secret Wars. So, yeah it wasnt exclusive just to the Secret Wars arc.

[The Question]

I don't think she was just training him for Secret Wars, although that was an aspect.

[deemar325]

I just never saw it. And didn't the animated series have this whole deal about how Spidey was "destined for great things"?

I ignore the animated series.

Either way Peter is us as a superhero, that's the whole point Stan was trying to make. The unlikely hero the guy who happened upon fate and now must deal with responsibility of using his powers for self gain or helping others. What Spidey is not is Green Lantern he's not a born hero, he's not Batman a self made hero, He's not Superman a Messiah figure, he's not BlackPanther a man born into his role.

Peter is 'Question/your real name' a guy every day joe/geek/loser/shmuck who was at the wrong place at the right/wrong time.

It's easily could have been Flash Thompson who got bitten and not Peter and that's the whole point.

Peter is the realization of the 'reader' being the hero.

[Darthphere]

I don't think she was just training him for Secret Wars, although that was an aspect.


Im pretty sure that was the whole point of Madame Web, to make him a leader to fight in Secret Wars.

[GoldenAgeHero]

what was she training him for tho? i dont remember the show in great detail...i think he was preparing for the clone saga or something.

[Darthphere]

what was she training him for tho? i dont remember the show in great detail...i think he was preparing for the clone saga or something.


Im pretty sure Secret Wars ended and that transpoerted him into the Clone Saga some how. I havent seen the show in forever.

[The Question]

I ignore the animated series.

Either way Peter is us as a superhero, that's the whole point Stan was trying to make. The unlikely hero the guy who happened upon fate and now must deal with responsibility of using his powers for self gain or helping others. What Spidey is not is Green Lantern he's not a born hero, he's not Batman a self made hero, He's not Superman a Messiah figure, he's not BlackPanther a man born into his role.

Peter is 'Question/your real name' a guy every day joe/geek/loser/shmuck who was at the wrong place at the right/wrong time.

It's easily could have been Flash Thompson who got bitten and not Peter and that's the whole point.

Peter is the realization of the 'reader' being the hero.


I don't see how the totem aspect makes him any less "us as a superhero". He's still an average guy who got powers. It's just, now we know why he got the powers. To quote Dogma:

"Knowing what you now know doesn't mean you're not who you were. You are Bethany Sloan. No one can take that away from you. Not even God. All this means is a redefinition of that identity. The incorperation of this new data into who you are. Be who you've always been. Just, be this aswell. Ftom time to time."

[GoldenAgeHero]

I don't see how the totem aspect makes him any less "us as a superhero". He's still an average guy who got powers. It's just, now we know why he got the powers. To very loosely paraphrase Dogma:

"Simply incorperate this new data into who you are. Be who you've always been. Just, also be this.....from time to time."

we already knew why he got his powers, it was an act of randomness not destiny. we didnt need know totem poles to tell tell how he got and why when it was already explained. dont fix it if it's not broken. and like i said the whole totem aspect adds nothing to his character, it was uncalled for.

[Darthphere]

I don't see how the totem aspect makes him any less "us as a superhero". He's still an average guy who got powers. It's just, now we know why he got the powers. To very loosely paraphrase Dogma:

"Simply incorperate this new data into who you are. Be who you've always been. Just, also be this.....from time to time."


Theres the thing, you just said it. There shouldnt be a reason why he got those powers.

[The Question]

we already knew why he got his powers, it was an act of randomness not destiny. we didnt need know totem poles to tell tell how he got and why when it was already explained. dont fix it if it's not broken. and like i said the whole totem aspect adds nothing to his character, it was uncalled for.

That's the how. Not the why.

Theres the thing, you just said it. There shouldnt be a reason why he got those powers.

Why not? What does that hurt? What does that take away? How does that fundamentally change who Spider-Man is?

[Darthphere]

That's the how. Not the why.



Why not? What does that hurt? What does that take away? How does that fundamentally change who Spider-Man is?


I think weve explained in detail already, the randomness of the event. The fact that nerdy Peter Parker was bitten and not someone else. I ask you. Why does there have to be a reason he was bitten?

[GoldenAgeHero]

and tell me what did this huge of event the other lead too? absolutely no where, an event that didnt even need the hype nor live up to it. jms a complete hack. his new abilities are as retarded as jms himself. oh wow he can stick things to his back...uhh yeah he's been doing that for sometime now, oh wait he can feel vibrations thru his weebing...uhh im pretty sure we didnt need an 11 part issue to tell us that....well he can see in the dark...umm im sure his spidersenses couldve guided him... well he has stingers...thats a stupid as the concept for X-23... what i found more amazing that people actually ate this garbage up.

[deemar325]

I don't see how the totem aspect makes him any less "us as a superhero". He's still an average guy who got powers. It's just, now we know why he got the powers. To very loosely paraphrase Dogma:

"Simply incorperate this new data into who you are. Be who you've always been. Just, also be this.....from time to time."

I hear ya Q! I'm still convinced that JMS totally took what was special about Spidey and destroyed it.

I'm saying what's magical or destined or supernatural about a person who happens to trip and fall on the ground and finds $100 bucks?

or

A person who saves a kid from being ran over by a car?

They all just happened to be at the right place, nothing more. Peter happened on super powers instead of $20 bucks on the street.

[The Question]

I think weve explained in detail already, the randomness of the event. The fact that nerdy Peter Parker was bitten and not someone else. I ask you. Why does there have to be a reason he was bitten?

There doesn't. But why does it have to be random. It doesn't take away from the fact that he's an everyman.

I hear ya Q! I'm still convinced that JMS totally took what was special about Spidey and destroyed it.

I'm saying what's magical or destined or supernatural about a person who happens to trip and fall on the ground and finds $100 bucks?

or

A person who saves a kid from being ran over by a car?

They all just happened to be at the right place, nothing more. Peter happened on super powers instead of $20 bucks on the street.

I see what you're saying. I just don't see why the randomness is such a huge factor. It never even crosed my mind until right now.

[Zoken]

it kinda does take away from the idea that he's an everyman. If he was destined, he was chosen. he was singled out. If it was random, it could have happened to anyone. remember, one of the biggest appeals of Spidey was that he could have been almost anyone under the mask, you or me, or anyone. to say that Peter Parker was chosen... kinda takes away from that feeling.

[The Question]

it kinda does take away from the idea that he's an everyman. If he was destined, he was chosen. he was singled out. If it was random, it could have happened to anyone. remember, one of the biggest appeals of Spidey was that he could have been almost anyone under the mask, you or me, or anyone. to say that Peter Parker was chosen... kinda takes away from that feeling.


The apeal is that he's an average guy with average problems who also has powers. And you forget, the reason he was chosen was because he was an everyman. Because he was a nerd who was pushed around.

[Anubis]

Maybe they could say that he wasn't really the chosen one. But somebody else who then gets the Spider powers with all the crap Spideys got from the Other and he becomes the new Scarlet Spider.

[deemar325]

There doesn't. But why does it have to be random. It doesn't take away from the fact that he's an everyman.



I see what you're saying. I just don't see why the randomness is such a huge factor. It never even crosed my mind until right now.

Well it's been crossing everyone elses mind for the last 40 years.

Spidey is us.

When you get past the superpowers he is the fanboy/son/father/nurse/bartender/soldier/dog-walker/snobby yuppie eating a bagel/black kid on the street corner/jewish kid studying for his bahmitzfa/40 yr old guy who just lost his job of 20yrs.

Peter is the random shmoe who won the lottery, the dork who got the balls to ask the hot chick out, the new father who got twins instead of one kid.

So when you add a freaking Totem/Spider God/pre-destined avatar stuff you put him in a catergory seperated from you, me and dumbass who lit his own fart on fire.

You get it?

[The Question]

Well it's been crossing everyone elses mind for the last 40 years.

Spidey is us.

When you get past the superpowers he is the fanboy/son/father/nurse/bartender/soldier/dog-walker/snobby yuppie eating a bagel/black kid on the street corner/jewish kid studying for his bahmitzfa/40 yr old guy who just lost his job of 20yrs.

Peter is the random shmoe who won the lottery, the dork who got the balls to ask the hot chick out, the new father who got twins instead of one kid.

So when you add a freaking Totem/Spider God/pre-destined avatar stuff you put him in a catergory seperated from you, me and dumbass who lit his own fart on fire.

You get it?


Yeah. But I don't agree with it. I don't see how it takes away from his everyman status at all. He's still an everyman. He still deals with the crap everyone does. Under that mask, he still could be anybody to the people of New York. The randomness was never a factor for me. The fact that he's just a guy dealing with regular **** is.

[deemar325]

I guess the best way to explain it is Jesus gets bitten by a radioactive God and yeah he was a carpenter and all but he's so much better than you now and you never had a chance in hell to be him.

Why cause even though Jesus was/seemed like a regular guy, he was always going to be 'God-man!'

[The Question]

But, Spider-Man was never "so much better" than everyone else. He was chosen, but because he was an average guy. Because he dealt with the **** that was high school and every day life. And really, who cares if you couldn't be him. The fact that he goes through the same **** that everyone else does, that's what made the character special in the first place.

[Zoken]

Um... two things Deemar

1: WTF?! I'm sorry but I think you should put down the crack pipe and step away...

2: It just hit me, this is one of the few times you didn't like my idea. pain... deep pain and suff.. okay I"m over it.

[deemar325]

Um... two things Deemar

1: WTF?! I'm sorry but I think you should put down the crack pipe and step away...

LOL!!

2: It just hit me, this is one of the few times you didn't like my idea. pain... deep pain and suff.. okay I"m over it.

I usually love your stuff man, can't knock'em all outta the ball park Z.

[Furthermore]

Give him new ugly iron man armor. Wait...

[Grim Goblin]

The Question, I respect you a lot and this isn't an attack on you but the thing is, until JMS came along, Peter was an everyman. Emphasis on the "every" part. Everyone has accidents for no reason at all. Not everyone gets chosen for something special. That's why he's not an everyman anymore.

Yes, he goes through the regular hassle of everyday life, but he's not like others anymore. He was chosen for something bigger. And it takes away from his character because it used to be his choice, his redemption for failing to stop the burglar. Now, it doesn't seem like it was ever his choice to make anyway.

[The Question]

Now, nothing from the Totem stuff said it wasn't his choice to make. Hell, I don't recall anything from the totem stuff saying that he was meant to become a hero. I'm fairly certain that they did say he was chosen because he was an everyman. Because he dealt with the **** of everyday life. So, he would never give up if given the chance to fight. Has nothing to do with being a hero.

[Harlekin]

Okay, Q, would you mind explaining what you think Spidey's appeal is and was?

The way I and pretty much everyone else you're discussing with see it:
- Your everyday nerd who has to deal with both his superhero and normal life.
- He could be anyone. You or me or the guy on the street corner could've been at that accident. Could've become Spider-Man. Superman was a baby rocketed to Earth. We can't be that, but we can be Spider-Man.

[gildea]

though i don't think it goes AGAINST 50 years of continuity i do think it's against the very ethos of the character.

[The Question]

Okay, Q, would you mind explaining what you think Spidey's appeal is and was?

The way I and pretty much everyone else you're discussing with see it:
- Your everyday nerd who has to deal with both his superhero and normal life.
- He could be anyone. You or me or the guy on the street corner could've been at that accident. Could've become Spider-Man. Superman was a baby rocketed to Earth. We can't be that, but we can be Spider-Man.


Well......


- Your everyday nerd who has to deal with both his superhero and normal life.


That was it for me. The randomness never even crossed my mind.

[Harlekin]

That was it for me. The randomness never even crossed my mind.
Still makes it a valid point.

[The Question]

I suppose.

[Pksoze]

The problem with the totem stuff imo was that it really goes against what Ditko & Lee wanted to accomplish. Ditko...being an objectivist is probably not happy with how his characters have been mangled.

But the most famous character he helped create was Spidey & the guy went from a science (even if its comics pseudo science) to supernatural based entity. Having read up on Ditko & how integral he was to Spidey, I have to believe he wouldn't be pleased.

I think the totem concept was best when it was first introduced as something ambigous & not concrete.

[theoneandonly]

i think we need to throw in a new villian someone like venom but like not with the symbiote but someone else and i think he needs someone new in his life

[The Question]

The problem with the totem stuff imo was that it really goes against what Ditko & Lee wanted to accomplish. Ditko...being an objectivist is probably not happy with how his characters have been mangled.

But the most famous character he helped create was Spidey & the guy went from a science (even if its comics pseudo science) to supernatural based entity. Having read up on Ditko & how integral he was to Spidey, I have to believe he wouldn't be pleased.

I think the totem concept was best when it was first introduced as something ambigous & not concrete.


I suppose. It's just, I don't see how Spidey being science based is vital for the character.

[Pksoze]

I suppose. It's just, I don't see how Spidey being science based is vital for the character.


It was important to his creator.

[The Question]

I guess.

[Varient]

please do not list giving him a baby or bringing back ben reilly. i stories, taht has to deal with his persona.
SpiderDog.

[yenaled]

Isn't it still random that he was selected to be the totem, any of us could have been selected to be the totem as we are all like Peter Parker - the everyday man. Bearing in mind he didn't know at the time he was being selected and becoming the totem.

It's like Books of Magic, Tim was told that he would become the worlds greatest magician, but he had to choose if he wanted to be that. He eventually chooses dispite everything he has seen to become that. However you then find out at the end that he really didn't have a choice, he had to become the greatest magician - he just had to seemingly choose the path to make him a better magician in the end.

Surley this is the same as Spider-Man we have a seemingly random event that Peter is led to believe was a random event in his life. We then find out many years later that it wasn't random and he was selected but it doesn't take anything away from the events.

Any of us could still be selected and any of us could still be in a seemingly random accident - because we are all like Peter Parker.

Baring in mind, I havn't read Spider-Man since before Sins Past, so I could be wrong. But I think the idea in principle doesn't hurt Spider-Man it is just how it has been implimented and the terrible storylines it has produced.

[RAMORE]

Well I mentioned under the "OYL" thread that Peter, not Spider-Man but Peter, be invited/abducted by a "Think-Tank" headed by Doc Ock, the Mad Thinker, Dr. Doom, and Mr. Sinister. they would tell him that his test show the potenial for true genius intellect, and that they wish him to join them in creating a world without "Moronic, judgmental, false Champion" (They want to get rid of super-heroes). Peter prepares to say yes, just to spy on them, but then Dr. Doom instructs Otto to tell Peter the extremely interesting information they liberated from Osborne Industries. a memo regarding "Subject M.G.P" saying that "She is currently three years old and reading on a third grade level. the X-Gene has been detected, and they are proceeding with Mr. Osborne's instructions." Peter quickly realizes that "M.G.P." could very well be "May Gwendolyn Parker". Peter is given shown the possiblity that his daughter may be alive.

This generates more and more problems as Peter can't risk telling any of the Avengers about this, or even MJ, as These people mention that they have been watching him for some time. They don't yet realize he's Spider-Man, though Doom is dropping frightening hints that he may know. They also talk about other members such as Wilbur Day and Herman Shultz, but they are mentioned to be "Lower eschelon members." Otto seems to wish Peter to be there as an ally and a confidant. Even Otto realizes that he is in a room with snakes. He wants one person to trust.


freaking brilliant idea!!!!! i love it.

[RAMORE]

Way I see it, bring back baby May. Make him a dad. That's progression for ya'. And retcon out Aunt May's return from the dead. Her death was a great moment in Spider-Man history.


This is the smartest damn thing you ever said Q:eek:

[amazingfantasy15]

Getting back to the original question in this thread, I would take away all the "innovative changes" to reinvegorate the Spidey mythos. First, show a Peter with confidence around the Avengers, a Peter that doesn't see himself as Tony Stark's sidekick or always in awe of Captain America, Spidey's been doing his thing for almost as long as these other heroes and has fought alongside them many times, I'm sick of seeing the writers portraying him like he's in his first year of the superhero business, it's insulting to the reader and the character. Second, take away the Iron Spidey suit, all the new powers and organic webbing. Maybe keep him in the Avengers, but take the Avengers out of the Spider-man books, have him ask Tony to rebuild the home in Forest Hills and have him, MJ and May living there. Finally, have the final Green Goblin story that will somewhat retcon things back before Gobby came back. This arc should do a number of things, kill May, kill the Norman Osbourne, bring baby May back, reveal that Gwen's kids were actually just regular kids manipulated into their thinking by Norman Osbourne and give Peter the final peace of mind to finally move past Gwen and be happy with the life he has.

Basically bring back the Spidey from before the clone saga.

[RAMORE]

This is just another F'in retcon. And that's not the spidey before the clone saga Aunt may died during and it was the best death ever. Why the hell must everyone refer to the clone saga when they want to be negative about spidey. It had it's faults (all marketing driven faults) but it was a great read:mad:

[Zoken]

I am personally against Retconning. You have history, deal with it. okay, if you explain it away, or something, but making it just go away and never mentioning it again is just insulting to the reader in my opinion.

Thats why I'd want to bring back things like Kaine, and the old costumes (maybe have Spidey have some fun with the shapeshifting ablities of his new costume).

Hey Ramore, what did you specifically like about my "Think Tank" Idea? one of my regular fans didn't really go for it.

[The Question]

This is just another F'in retcon. And that's not the spidey before the clone saga Aunt may died during and it was the best death ever. Why the hell must everyone refer to the clone saga when they want to be negative about spidey. It had it's faults (all marketing driven faults) but it was a great read:mad:


Well, all a retcon is is changing things in the past retroactively. Like, bringing back Aunt May was a retcon, because they said she never actually died. That was bull, in my personal opinion. So, were I to take over, I'd have it turn out that Aunt May actually died, and the Aunt May living with them is a highly realistic clone made by Osborn. I would kill off Osborn, and have it so the clone is programed to self terminate in the event of Osborn's death.

[GoldenAgeHero]

I suppose. It's just, I don't see how Spidey being science based is vital for the character.

nor do i see him being supernaturally based is vital for his character either. everything lee explained was perfect the way it was. it diodnt need this "direction".

[GoldenAgeHero]

Well, all a retcon is is changing things in the past retroactively. Like, bringing back Aunt May was a retcon, because they said she never actually died. That was bull, in my personal opinion. So, were I to take over, I'd have it turn out that Aunt May actually died, and the Aunt May living with them is a highly realistic clone made by Osborn. I would kill off Osborn, and have it so the clone is programed to self terminate in the event of Osborn's death.

uhhh why does osborn have to be the cause of everything, arghhhhhhhhh!!! it should be the jackal who cloned aunt may or someone else, just not osborn.

[Varient]

........................................

[GoldenAgeHero]

I am personally against Retconning. You have history, deal with it. okay, if you explain it away, or something, but making it just go away and never mentioning it again is just insulting to the reader in my opinion.

Thats why I'd want to bring back things like Kaine, and the old costumes (maybe have Spidey have some fun with the shapeshifting ablities of his new costume).

Hey Ramore, what did you specifically like about my "Think Tank" Idea? one of my regular fans didn't really go for it.

no!! all clones shoyuld just stay dead.

[roach]

I am personally against Retconning. You have history, deal with it. okay, if you explain it away, or something, but making it just go away and never mentioning it again is just insulting to the reader in my opinion.

Thats why I'd want to bring back things like Kaine, and the old costumes (maybe have Spidey have some fun with the shapeshifting ablities of his new costume).

Hey Ramore, what did you specifically like about my "Think Tank" Idea? one of my regular fans didn't really go for it.


I agree with you on this. My job as a writer on Spiderman isnt to fix what I deem is bad in Spiderman history(which is why we have these new things added to the myth) but to tell entertaining stories. Peter will be back in the red and blue with a few of the webbing modifications that Ben made. Will Peter use his stingers..probably not....however I like the idea of the totems and I'd use that to enhance his foes. Imagine a Scorpion that is powered by the scorpion avatar......or a Vulture that is a scary threat rather than a joke.

[GoldenAgeHero]

I agree with you on this. My job as a writer on Spiderman isnt to fix what I deem is bad in Spiderman history(which is why we have these new things added to the myth) but to tell entertaining stories. Peter will be back in the red and blue with a few of the webbing modifications that Ben made. Will Peter use his stingers..probably not....however I like the idea of the totems and I'd use that to enhance his foes. Imagine a Scorpion that is powered by the scorpion avatar......or a Vulture that is a scary threat rather than a joke.

great god:rolleyes::down JMS has brainwashed you,

seriously what would be the need for a scorpion avatar?, oh hey scorpion, guess what? what? remember when jameson had you mutate into the scorpion with the help of alyster smithe? yeah? well your not going to believe this, but heh it all turned out you were destined to be scorpion ain't that a riot? so yeah i guess this avatar of yours were mind controlling jameson and the kingpin! wtf?lol you are the roxxors:down

[roach]

great god:rolleyes::down JMS has brainwashed you,

seriously what would be the need for a scorpion avatar?, oh hey scorpion, guess what? what? remember when jameson had you mutate into the scorpion with the help of alyster smithe? yeah? well your not going to believe this, but heh it all turned out you were destined to be scorpion ain't that a riot? so yeah i guess this avatar of yours were mind controlling jameson and the kingpin! wtf?lol you are the roxxors:down

oh you mean the scorpion Spidey beats with his eyes closed....:down

I am talking about getting Spidey's villains back to the point where he can barely win

and that Scorpion has been replaced by a little girl

[GoldenAgeHero]

oh you mean the scorpion Spidey beats with his eyes closed....:down

I am talking about getting Spidey's villains back to the point where he can barely win

and that Scorpion has been replaced by a little girl

it's called better wrting, not making scorpion based on a stupid avatar.


that doesnt even matter, since the scorpion havent even been in a spidey book since god knows win.

[roach]

all of Spidey's villains save for Goblin and Doc Ock are jokes...they are the guys he beats in his spare time between Goblin and Doc Ock appearances

[GoldenAgeHero]

all of Spidey's villains save for Goblin and Doc Ock are jokes...they are the guys he beats in his spare time between Goblin and Doc Ock appearances

so write them better, you dont need a a mystical avatar to make a character interesting. look at what geoff johns has done with the flash rogues without making heatwave based on a goddamn avatar.

[The Question]

nor do i see him being supernaturally based is vital for his character either. everything lee explained was perfect the way it was. it diodnt need this "direction".

Never said it was vital. But it doesn't really hurt anything either.

uhhh why does osborn have to be the cause of everything, arghhhhhhhhh!!! it should be the jackal who cloned aunt may or someone else, just not osborn.



.......because Osborn was the one holding Aunt May and supposedly faked her death in the first place. It wouldn't make any sense if he weren't behind it.

I agree with you on this. My job as a writer on Spiderman isnt to fix what I deem is bad in Spiderman history(which is why we have these new things added to the myth) but to tell entertaining stories. Peter will be back in the red and blue with a few of the webbing modifications that Ben made. Will Peter use his stingers..probably not....however I like the idea of the totems and I'd use that to enhance his foes. Imagine a Scorpion that is powered by the scorpion avatar......or a Vulture that is a scary threat rather than a joke.

Actually, it was explained that the reason all the animal based villains Spidey has fought hate Spidey more than anyone else is because, subconsciously, they realize that Spidey is the real deal, and they're just pretenders. And really, you don't need to amp their powers to make them cooler.

[deemar325]

so write them better, you dont need a a mystical avatar to make a character interesting. look at what geoff johns has done with the flash rogues without making heatwave based on a goddamn avatar.

:up: