Can anyone work out how Hypertime and Widstorm Universes fit into IC?

[Whirlysplat]

IC postulates only one Earth existed after the original Crisis. Hypertime exploded this. Lex shows only one Earth at the start of IC yet at the same time Atom is on another being shown lots of different ones.

Is it just a mess?

- Whirly

[Anubis]

Well, I have thought about this for some time now and I've come to the conclusion of the Snowflake effect as seen in Wildstorm's Planetary. You see, a snowflake contains 196,833 different Universes. The Wildstorm U is in one universe in one snowflake, while the DCU is one Universe in another. The DCU is therefore the only universe in it's snowflake, but there are still many other snowflakes. Each with 196,833 different universes in it. Which explains why Alex Luthor only sees one, yet there are still plenty of alternate universes out there. Take the ABC line that Alan Moore created. Or Y the Last Man. Or any other alternate U you've seen from DC. All I would assume fall under the Snowflake theory.

[ToddIsDead]

Well, I have thought about this for some time now and I've come to the conclusion of the Snowflake effect as seen in Wildstorm's Planetary. You see, a snowflake contains 196,833 different Universes. The Wildstorm U is in one universe in one snowflake, while the DCU is one Universe in another. The DCU is therefore the only universe in it's snowflake, but there are still many other snowflakes. Each with 196,833 different universes in it. Which explains why Alex Luthor only sees one, yet there are still plenty of alternate universes out there. Take the ABC line that Alan Moore created. Or Y the Last Man. Or any other alternate U you've seen from DC. All I would assume fall under the Snowflake theory.
Wow. That explains all of my confusion about this issue. That theory could work very well.

[Whirlysplat]

Well, I have thought about this for some time now and I've come to the conclusion of the Snowflake effect as seen in Wildstorm's Planetary. You see, a snowflake contains 196,833 different Universes. The Wildstorm U is in one universe in one snowflake, while the DCU is one Universe in another. The DCU is therefore the only universe in it's snowflake, but there are still many other snowflakes. Each with 196,833 different universes in it. Which explains why Alex Luthor only sees one, yet there are still plenty of alternate universes out there. Take the ABC line that Alan Moore created. Or Y the Last Man. Or any other alternate U you've seen from DC. All I would assume fall under the Snowflake theory.

Very good thinking. It makes excellent sense.



- Whirly

[yenaled]

Wow Anubis good theory. I'll be taking up that one to explain it myself.

This also explains while it is so easy to travel between multiple universes when they are inside one snowflake but traveling between different universes is a lot harder when they are in separate snowflakes.

[The Question]

Which is why Captain Atom can't locate his universe. It's in a completely different cluster of universes.

[ToddIsDead]

That makes me wonder even more how Cap'n Atom got to the Wildstorm U and how he gets back.

[Anubis]

Which is why Captain Atom can't locate his universe. It's in a completely different cluster of universes.


Exactly.

[Whirlysplat]

It doesn't really explain how Hypertime fits in though.

- Whirly

[Anubis]

Well, I thought they explained away Hypertime by saying it was all SBP punching the walls of reality and changing s**t.

[ToddIsDead]

Didn't they retcon all of that Hypertime stuff? I may be mistaken.

EDIT: What Anubis said couldd work too. I think that's the best way to explain that away.

[yenaled]

Hypertime doesn't need to be explained because only Grant Morrison ever understood it. It's really not a factor in the DCU - basically was a cool idea that was far too complex for the company to run with they experimented and it didn't take off.

That coupled with the fact that when it first started up both Waid and Morrison moved to Marvel, so the idea kind of took a back bench and was never used fully.

Now we can just say that any moment of Hypertime in the DCU has been retconed punched away.

[kiuju2k]

It gets on my nerves. They got rid of the multiverse right? But, wasn't batman/superman on multiple earths? How is that possible when there is only 1 earth now? I'm confused.

[Anubis]

Well, there is another theory that there can't be one single universe. That due to time travelers and crap like that, they create a multiverse in they're wake. So, getting rid of the multiverse was pointless because it would inevitably reestablish itself due to the nature of superheros or whatever.

[kiuju2k]

So kind of like the back to the future thing... branching off future timelines and such... I never saw the sense in getting rid of it. Can't they just stop making books that involve the multiverse and still have it.

[yenaled]

I like to think of Superman/Batman as imaginary stories, just like the old days.

[Anubis]

Well, they kinda already brought the multiverse back. Not very long after it was supposedly removed actually. They realized that, in the long run, it's best to keep it. Just not do so many stories involving it. But then again, I have always loved alternate reality stories. I Would hate to see them go.

[Whirlysplat]

Well, there is another theory that there can't be one single universe. That due to time travelers and crap like that, they create a multiverse in they're wake. So, getting rid of the multiverse was pointless because it would inevitably reestablish itself due to the nature of superheros or whatever.

Marvel used to use this well known quantum concept for What if my friend.

- Whirly

[Anubis]

Yeah, thats were I got it from. It's a decent theory.

Well, heres something else to think about, which is a hell of alot more complicated. Maybe all these alternate Universes we are seeing now were destroyed during the original Crisis. Let me see if I can properly explain this. I mean, when dealing with an alternate universe, you not only have the present, but a whole past and future. So, for all we know, the universes that we've seen could have simply been destroyed during the first Crisis. What point in they're universe they were in when the Monitor destroyed it is anybodies guess. And everything we've seen happened before that universe was destroyed.

Not saying that thats the way things are, but it's something to think about.

[Whirlysplat]

Yeah, thats were I got it from. It's a decent theory.

Well, heres something else to think about, which is a hell of alot more complicated. Maybe all these alternate Universes we are seeing now were destroyed during the original Crisis. Let me see if I can properly explain this. I mean, when dealing with an alternate universe, you not only have the present, but a whole past and future. So, for all we know, the universes that we've seen could have simply been destroyed during the first Crisis. What point in they're universe they were in when the Monitor destroyed it is anybodies guess. And everything we've seen happened before that universe was destroyed.

Not saying that thats the way things are, but it's something to think about.

True enough, do you think DC needs an Ultimate DC type Universe? A complete refresh, with no baggage at all.

- Whirly

[Anubis]

Meh, just another alternate universe. If it's good I'd buy it. But I don't think they necessarily "NEED" it.

[The Question]

It might be cool. I've got a bunch of ideas for something like that. Would be cool if I ever had the chance to write something like that.

[Whirlysplat]

It might be cool. I've got a bunch of ideas for something like that. Would be cool if I ever had the chance to write something like that.

Sounds good mate.

- Whirly

[ToddIsDead]

Like some people have said, time travel can create tangent universes that run parrallel to each other. Kind of like in Back to the Future or Donnie Darko. If you go into it a lot, it can get kind of confusing, but it's a pretty simple theory.

[TheCorpulent1]

Hypertime doesn't need to be explained because only Grant Morrison ever understood it. It's really not a factor in the DCU - basically was a cool idea that was far too complex for the company to run with they experimented and it didn't take off.
Mark Waid understood it and used it pretty well in his Flash run. :p

[yenaled]

Well yeah, he was also the first person to use it in the Kingdom - technically Morrison and Waid (not just Morrison) I suppose invented it. When they both left for Marvel, Hypertime was dead in the water.

I actually think I've heard that DC activly told people to move away from it, like the writer of Teen Titans at the time (can't remember the name - I think he may have been the same person who introduced Black Zero in Superboy (which I also think was the last time it was used)) and DC made people change stories to not involve Hypertime. For some reason they decided they didn't want it and without Waid and Morrison around to advocate it's use it died.

[Lackey]

I think Multiple Earths' have existed for quite awhile now. Superman/Batman acknowledged Batman Beyond and the Red Sun universes. I think that all the elseworlds that have happened in the last few years were different earths in the DCU. Infinite Crisis showed a shot of Captain Atom in the wildstorm universe so I don't think they are as separated as we think.


Like someone already mentioned the "Back to the Future" thing... I don't think of what's gone on in Superman/Batman as multiple earths in the same way it was pre-crisis. It's more alternate timelines. In Back to the Future, when Marty's own history had been messed with either by himself or by Biff with the Sports Almanac...it wasn't a alternate earth he was in, it was his own earth just with the timeline screwed up. When the the timeline was corrected, things went back to normal for the most part and the alternate timeline ceased to exist.

[TheCorpulent1]

That's what I figured was going on in Batman/Superman at first. After the last issue, it seems that there's a much more straightforward answer, though. Mxy and the (presumably Mxy-empowered) Joker are creating alternate dimensions/timelines and popping Superman and Batman into them for kicks.

[kiuju2k]

Damn corp... that makes perfect sense. Oh yeah and don't even get starte with hypertime.... Thats even worse but, not as confusing as multiverse. I can see them keeping that instead actually.

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't mind the multiverse, just so long as there aren't comics following Earth-1 and Earth-2 and Earth-212439519 Supermen and stuff. The comics should follow the main continuity characters from one Earth and that's it.

[Lackey]

what about Elseworlds :(

[TheCorpulent1]

I meant ongoings, not all of DC's comics. Sorry about that.