Why the hate on Nightwing.

[SouLeSS]

I've just finished reading the whole series (got 1-114 + all the oneshots and minis in the mail the other week, then picked up 115-119 at the local shop Wednesday and hadnt really started reading it or anything till just this weekend) and I gotta ask. Why does everyone seem to hate on Nightwing so much?

[WildChild]

Who hates Nightwing!?

[CConn]

Few hate Nightwing. Many hate the way Devin Grayson and now Bruce Jones are handling the book and character.

[Doomed_hero]

I love Nightwing myself, havent heard to much hate.

[jaydawg]

Everyone loves Nightwing. Everyone hates any writer that touches the book who isnt Chuck Dixon.

[MaskedManJRK]

Everyone loves Nightwing. Everyone hates any writer that touches the book who isnt Chuck Dixon.

That about sums it up.

Where's your avatar from, by the way?

[Harlekin]

Everyone loves Nightwing. Everyone hates any writer that touches the book who isnt Chuck Dixon.
Jay nailed it. Devin Grayson started out okay, but quickly ****ed the whole series up with her little Mary Sue Tarantula. I haven't read the new Bruce Jones issues yet, but from what I've heard, they are pretty much just as meh.

[Sentry2005]

I liked the second issue much more than the first, but I still think i'm dropping it come the end of this opening arc. If I want my Nightwing fix i'll pick up Outsiders.

[Darthphere]

So I ask what was the point of Dick proposing to Babs again?

[The_Mystery]

No the character, just the current creators.

[jaydawg]

That about sums it up.

Where's your avatar from, by the way?
Arrested Development. And seriously, why did he propose to Babs if they were just gonna screw that up? That really pissed me off. :down

[Darthphere]

Arrested Development. And seriously, why did he propose to Babs if they were just gonna screw that up? That really pissed me off. :down


Yup. It was such a great moment. I thought wow OYL Nightwing is going to be with Babs and along with Batman and Gordon back its going to be like the good days on batman. I guess Bruce Jones thought otherwise.

[Nightwing]

Arrested Development. And seriously, why did he propose to Babs if they were just gonna screw that up? That really pissed me off. :down

Exactly. I mean they left the last issue of Nightwing before OYL with a decent ending, and now we have no idea as to what happend to it. I hated the fact how Dick was sleeping with another woman who so many thought was Barbara when the preview was shown, but then turned out to be a completly different person who he had just met the night before. And now in the latest issue, it shows Jason introducing himself toward her at the end. I also dislike the fact of Dick looking like he's the imposter Nightwing while Jason has the look we all knew since Dick changed his costume years ago, I've dropped the book for now. Hopefully it'll pick up again, I don't hate the character in general just the way he's being written.

[roach]

I started reading since OYL and im impressed

[ToddIsDead]

I'm going to finish out the arc and then probably drop it.

[TheCorpulent1]

I've already dropped Nightwing. The first OYL issue was bad, but I couldn't even make it through the second. It was like reading about a completely different character. At least Devin Grayson characterized Dick like Dick, even if she made him just about the last guy you'd want on your side in a fight.

[Darthphere]

I've already dropped Nightwing. The first OYL issue was bad, but I couldn't even make it through the second. It was like reading about a completely different character. At least Devin Grayson characterized Dick like Dick, even if she made him just about the last guy you'd want on your side in a fight.


Damn you Bruce Jones.

[TheCorpulent1]

It's like he didn't bother messing around this time. He started straight off with Nightwing's counterpart to his Absorbing Man arc in the Hulk. ;)

[Darthphere]

It's like he didn't bother messing around this time. He started straight off with Nightwing's counterpart to his Absorbing Man arc in the Hulk. ;)


It just pissed me off, especially with the whole Babs thing. I wanna read Dick as Nightwing, not Dick being well a dick.

[ToddIsDead]

For the record, the main reason that I'm still reading it is for the prospect of Dick beating the pulp out of Jason.

[TheCorpulent1]

It just pissed me off, especially with the whole Babs thing. I wanna read Dick as Nightwing, not Dick being well a dick.
That Babs thing really was in bad taste. They jerked us around with the Dick/Babs relationship once already. Why do it a second time when practically everything in the comics screams that they're made for each other?

[Darthphere]

That Babs thing really was in bad taste. They jerked us around with the Dick/Babs relationship once already. Why do it a second time when practically everything in the comics screams that they're made for each other?


Because Bruce Jones is a sadist.

[ToddIsDead]

Because Bruce Jones is a sadist.
LOL :up:

[Lackey]

I've already dropped Nightwing. The first OYL issue was bad, but I couldn't even make it through the second. It was like reading about a completely different character. At least Devin Grayson characterized Dick like Dick, even if she made him just about the last guy you'd want on your side in a fight.


I thought it was a different character... what happened to the whole Jason Todd as Nightwing thing? (I'm not buying Nightwing)

[ToddIsDead]

Both Dick and Jason are Nightwing.

[Darthphere]

I thought it was a different character... what happened to the whole Jason Todd as Nightwing thing? (I'm not buying Nightwing)


Jason Todd is Nightwing, but so is Dick. Jason seems to be impersonating him and killing criminals and wacky stuff. And Dick is sleeping with women he doesnt know.

[TheCorpulent1]

I thought it was a different character... what happened to the whole Jason Todd as Nightwing thing? (I'm not buying Nightwing)
Jason Todd is playing at being Nightwing, first to take over for Dick since Dick was out of costume (along with Tim and Bruce, on their sabbatical) for the 52 year, and now apparently just to piss Dick off. Dick has just returned as Nightwing as well, though. So there are two Nightwings.

What I was talking about was Dick's characterization as Dick. Even out of the costume, he reads nothing like the Dick I've come to know from his Titans, Batman, and Nightwing appearances to date.

[ToddIsDead]

Bruce Jones, cybernetic model T-101. Sent from the future to kill Dick Grayson's character.

[Lackey]

Thanks for the explanation :up:


I knew there were two Nightwings, but I had originally thought that Nightwing's title would only be dealing with Jason Todd while Dick was off roaming around other countries with the Outsiders.



Edit: Also, how is Jason Todd to have taken his place during 52 when in Outsiders Nightwing said that people were supposed to believe that they all were dead? Or that happens somewhere within 52 and doesn't include the entire year.

[Darthphere]

Thanks for the explanation :up:


I knew there were two Nightwings, but I had originally thought that Nightwing's title would only be dealing with Jason Todd while Dick was off roaming around other countries with the Outsiders.


Yeah, I dont even want to know how they explain having Dick in Africa and New York at the same time.

[TheCorpulent1]

Edit: Also, how is Jason Todd to have taken his place during 52 when in Outsiders Nightwing said that people were supposed to believe that they all were dead? Or that happens somewhere within 52 and doesn't include the entire year.
I think I explained it badly earlier. Jason just recently took up the Nightwing identity because Dick had been MIA for the 52 year. Coincidentally, Dick came to New York after his sabbatical with Bruce and Tim and started acting as Nightwing again shortly after Jason's first night out as Nightwing. Now they're basically fighting over Nightwing's reputation, since Jason's killing people in Dick's costume.

Also, I remember thinking that the specific wording in the Outsiders comic made it arguable whether Nightwing himself was counted among the Outsiders who were considered dead. I could be wrong about that, though. Outsiders could just make no sense. Lord knows Winick has been confusing the hell out of me in several other areas with that book since the OYL jump. :o

[Nightwing]

Well, looks like there may be a third person adopting the identity of Nightwing.

[Darthphere]

Well, looks like there may be a third person adopting the identity of Nightwing.


A female Nightwing.....but this isnt really new.

[Darthphere]

Nightwing got a sex change.

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/July06/Batman/NightwingCv122.jpg

[Binker]

I wonder who that is.

Could it be that girl from #118?

[TheCorpulent1]

Seriously, it's like Jones couldn't figure out what to write for Nightwing, so he decided to just toss everyone he could think of into a Nightwing suit. :(

[Nightwing]

Nightwing got a sex change.

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/July06/Batman/NightwingCv122.jpg

That could be the woman Dick slept with in #118, Cheyenne. She was shown to have some sort of metahuman power in the issue, close to what looks like this female Nightwing has on this cover.

[jaydawg]

You know whats really stupid? Nightwing was the one title that really needed help. In fact, of all the titles, this one would have easily benefited the most from the OYL jump. And all the DC staff members know this. So what do they do? Make things look up with Babs and Dick finally getting back together and effectively **** on it by making some dumbass story where JT steals his ID and Dick becomes an out of character douchebag. So while they decided to fix Batman, they also decided to run Grayson further into the ground. Brilliant guys. Brilliant.

[Nightwing]

You know whats really stupid? Nightwing was the one title that really needed help. In fact, of all the titles, this one would have easily benefited the most from the OYL jump. And all the DC staff members know this. So what do they do? Make things look up with Babs and Dick finally getting back together and effectively **** on it by making some dumbass story where JT steals his ID and Dick becomes an out of character douchebag. So while they decided to fix Batman, they also decided to run Grayson further into the ground. Brilliant guys. Brilliant.

Close to what I said.

Exactly. I mean they left the last issue of Nightwing before OYL with a decent ending, and now we have no idea as to what happend to it. I hated the fact how Dick was sleeping with another woman who so many thought was Barbara when the preview was shown, but then turned out to be a completly different person who he had just met the night before. And now in the latest issue, it shows Jason introducing himself toward her at the end. I also dislike the fact of Dick looking like he's the imposter Nightwing while Jason has the look we all knew since Dick changed his costume years ago, I've dropped the book for now. Hopefully it'll pick up again, I don't hate the character in general just the way he's being written.

[Darthphere]

You know whats really stupid? Nightwing was the one title that really needed help. In fact, of all the titles, this one would have easily benefited the most from the OYL jump. And all the DC staff members know this. So what do they do? Make things look up with Babs and Dick finally getting back together and effectively **** on it by making some dumbass story where JT steals his ID and Dick becomes an out of character douchebag. So while they decided to fix Batman, they also decided to run Grayson further into the ground. Brilliant guys. Brilliant.


Cant agree more. Nightwing to even people who dont read comics is a cool character. His costume is great. But they always seem to hype him up and fail miserably when it comes to delivering.

[trustyside-kick]

I do not read the Nightwing comics either like some said...but my brother told me about this whole thing with Jason taking Nightwing's rep and trashing it by killing villains and what not to piss him off....have they battled yet? Like did Dick approach him pissed and have a brawl? Dick would wipe the floor with Jason. :P

[Shawkur]

I cant figure out why DC even signed Bruce Jones to an exclusive, most people seemed to have hated his Hulk run and his Scarecrow: Year One story sucked.

[trustyside-kick]

I cant figure out why DC even signed Bruce Jones to an exclusive, most people seemed to have hated his Hulk run and his Scarecrow: Year One story sucked.

Wow. I did not know they did a Scarecrow: Year One comic story. They aren't going to continue that will they? I don't see why they would make a Scarecrow series...but I bet that was a one time thing.

[Assassin]

So I ask what was the point of Dick proposing to Babs again?

so twyilight can get all geeked up and faint ?

[Miss Webb]

Its like they don't know what to DO with Dick right now.

He's simply L-O-O-S-E.


What's with the sexual rampage? He trying to overcompensate for something, hmm????

I thot he and Babs were okay, not as special as some folk believe. Maybe its time to introduce someone completely new.

[Speedball]

is there a female nightwing?
cause the Nightwing on the July issue has boobs.
maybe Jason has a sex change?(LOL)

[jaydawg]

Its like they don't know what to DO with Dick right now.

He's simply L-O-O-S-E.


What's with the sexual rampage? He trying to overcompensate for something, hmm????

I thot he and Babs were okay, not as special as some folk believe. Maybe its time to introduce someone completely new.
**** that ****! Babs brought stability into Dick's life. If theres something that man needs now, its her. Shes his rock.:(

[twylight]

so twyilight can get all geeked up and faint ?

Low blow...low blow.

And I didn't 'faint', I swooned. :o

[Assassin]

:p

i told u it wouldnt last

[twylight]

is there a female nightwing?
cause the Nightwing on the July issue has boobs.
maybe Jason has a sex change?(LOL)

'Nightwing' was a hero from Krypton, Superman told Dick about this hero and so Dick took on the name of this ancient Kryptonian Hero. Now, the 'Nightwing' to which you are refering to is either A) Power Girl or B) Supergirl. Both of which are in the solicits for being in this comic.

Since 'Nightwing' was originally a hero from Krypton, it's not suprising that an actual Kryptonian might take up the name, male or female.

[Harlekin]

'Nightwing' was a hero from Krypton, Superman told Dick about this hero and so Dick took on the name of this ancient Kryptonian Hero. Now, the 'Nightwing' to which you are refering to is either A) Power Girl or B) Supergirl. Both of which are in the solicits for being in this comic.

Since 'Nightwing' was originally a hero from Krypton, it's not suprising that an actual Kryptonian might take up the name, male or female.
Nah, Speedie is referring to the July Nightwing cover.

[hippie_hunter]

Yeah, I dont even want to know how they explain having Dick in Africa and New York at the same time.

I like to think that DC will ignore Nightwing and basically have all of Dick's adventures with the Outsiders.

[Darthphere]

I like to think that DC will ignore Nightwing and basically have all of Dick's adventures with the Outsiders.



I think its for the better.:(

[twylight]

Nah, Speedie is referring to the July Nightwing cover.


So I did a whole long lecture for nothing? :(

And 'sides..the July cover is that red-head chick..check the hands with energy. :)

Mystery solved....

Nightwing got a sex change.

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/July06/Batman/NightwingCv122.jpg


And apparently some powers too. :o

[LinternaVerde]

in fact, I hate Jason Todd.

I hope they kill him again, as soon as posible.

Kill him very fast, without hesitations

[Nightwing 007]

So far I am with most in hating the new series. Hopefullyt we find out what happens in the 52 series.

My guess? I think that,after what I've read so far with OYL,that Nightwing ends up being the Supernova character that has been mentioned. Probably an after effect of the radiation poisoning by Chemo & the vaccine that he was given afterwards.

We shall see...

Anyways,I LOVE the character.But even I'm getting my patience tested.Hopefully Jones does something right,& fast.

[GoldenAgeHero]

i dont think nightwing is supernova. first, nightwing city is bludhaven, not metropolis. so if there was any city dick would be protecting it would be bludhaven(look at the way he was talking about it in his previus issue, he loves the city). second, i dont think dick woud even design a costume like that. it doesnt even fits his persona.

[TheCorpulent1]

Low blow...low blow.

And I didn't 'faint', I swooned. :o
That's just a romantic euphemism for "faint."

[twylight]

That's just a romantic euphemism for "faint."

Take your educated cerebrum someplace else.

[El Bastardo]

I'm jumping onboard this thread a bit late, but then... I haven't, as a rule, come to the DC Comics forum much.

I think I might just be the one person to say he likes the new Nightwing issues, at least from the posts I skimmed over. Please don't stone me. I don't wish to be pummeled by big freakin' rocks.

Something to consider, you who are complaining that Dick isn't acting like Dick: It's One Year Later, to use DC's own term. It takes years to build a person into who they are, and days for them to crumble. Things could have happened during the one year sabbatical (to steal an earlier poster's term) that have changed things. What if Dick and Barbara -did- make plans to get married, and it fell through? I think there was a page in the first Nightwing: OYL issue that made me think he had called and was either talking to or leaving a message for Babs. Remember, we definitely do not know what happened to Nightwing during that one year... and if Batman made him go around the world with him, as we can assume, then is it any surprise that the marriage didn't happen/fell through?

And if that's the case, then it's not Jones's fault. It's Grayson's for setting it up in that last issue. And for the record, I thought the placing of that last thing, in her last issue on the book, was a fairly low point and bad move.

I think Jones's writing is fresh. It's not Dixon, no, but it's better than Grayson, and it's FRESH. Todd's a nasty, impersonating, generally bad dude, and it's really kind of neat that he's messing around now with the first Robin.

[TheCorpulent1]

A character can change substantially in a year, sure, but when I say reading Nightwing now is like reading about a different character entirely, I mean that literally. Dick's mannerisms and speech are all weird and don't quite fit with the Dick I know. Even at Grayson's worst, her Dick was still recognizable when compared with the Titans' Dick or the Outsiders' Dick.
Take your educated cerebrum someplace else.
Only my basil ganglia is educated. I ain't learned the rest of my brain nothin' much yet.

[The_Mystery]

I can understand people changing in a year, but everyone in the world has a consistant personality. Yeah, some things might change over time, but the basic personality doesn't change. Another thing about Jones' Nightwing issues is that he has Dick fighting like a novice, but what I can't understand is how Dick could come back from training with Bruce and Tim and be a slack as he is while Tim is fighting off entire groups of Gotham City cops.

[Anubis]

Yeah, dats f**ked up.

[Stealth_Prime]

You know with a name like Grayson, the very same as our favorite's alter ego is, you would think Devin would have the pulse of the character to help her write the Nightwing books. But man, I have to agree, it didn't pan out as well and we need Dixon back to set things straight.

[The_Mystery]

It's a sad day when Judd Winick writes Nightwing better in Outsiders than the current writer of the NIGHTWING series. Sad, so sad. :)

[Darthphere]

It's a sad day when Judd Winick writes Nightwing better in Outsiders than the current writer of the NIGHTWING series. Sad, so sad. :)


LOL! I dont know Outsiders is kicking ass for me.

[The_Mystery]

^Exactly.

[Nightwing]

LOL! I dont know Outsiders is kicking ass for me.

I'm liking Outsiders as well, just as much as Teen Titans...

[Lord Blackbolt]

I really never liked Bruce Jones' writing. Every since his ****ingly bad run on Hulk....I don't even wanna touch anything he writes. I wish he'd dissappear like Mackie and Chuck Austen.... What ever happened to those guys...LOL

[Darthphere]

I really never liked Bruce Jones' writing. Every since his ****ingly bad run on Hulk....I don't even wanna touch anything he writes. I wish he'd dissappear like Mackie and Chuck Austen.... What ever happened to those guys...LOL


Austen is writing soft core porn baseball manga....no joke.

[TheCorpulent1]

LOL! I dont know Outsiders is kicking ass for me.
Outsiders is just confusing me at the moment. Parts of it are all right, though.

[Darthphere]

Outsiders is just confusing me at the moment. Parts of it are all right, though.


What parts, how Nightwing is in Africa and NY at the same time. I blame Bruce Jones.

[hippie_hunter]

What parts, how Nightwing is in Africa and NY at the same time. I blame Bruce Jones.

Bingo, DC, please ignore Jones's arc on Nightwing.

[TheCorpulent1]

No, the parts about how Nightwing recommitted himself to taking responsibility and upholding heroic ideals pre-OYL, and now he's apparently okay with that African government slaughtering innocents when he's in a position to stop them. "Big picture" my ass, if he were really sticking to his heroic guns he'd find a way to save those villagers and get the top guy instead of reaming Thunder for doing the right thing, even at the cost of her cover. Also, it seemed an awful lot like he was just casually letting the Outsiders kill people, what with the whole throwing trucks full of people and watching them explode deal. Metamorpho as a layer of sentient chloroform, seeking out the villains' noses, couldn't have been more efficient?

[Darthphere]

No, the parts about how Nightwing recommitted himself to taking responsibility and upholding heroic ideals pre-OYL, and now he's apparently okay with that African government slaughtering innocents when he's in a position to stop them. "Big picture" my ass, if he were really sticking to his heroic guns he'd find a way to save those villagers and get the top guy instead of reaming Thunder for doing the right thing, even at the cost of her cover. Also, it seemed an awful lot like he was just casually letting the Outsiders kill people, what with the whole throwing trucks full of people and watching them explode deal. Metamorpho as a layer of sentient chloroform, seeking out the villains' noses, couldn't have been more efficient?


As far as im concerned no Outsiders killed anyone, just tortured. Either way, it makes more sense logisyically and with the team concept. You can stop and bag hundreds of drug dealers but it wont stop drug flow, you go after the cartels.

[TheCorpulent1]

But you don't callously label junkies as acceptable casualties along the way. If the Outsiders are fighting a war, Nightwing should come right out and say it and then drop out of the hero game. Being a pupil of Batman who ostensibly follows his teachings and fighting a covert global war with traditional rules are mutually exclusive.

[Darthphere]

But you don't callously label junkies as acceptable casualties along the way. If the Outsiders are fighting a war, Nightwing should come right out and say it and then drop out of the hero game. Being a pupil of Batman who ostensibly follows his teachings and fighting a covert global war with traditional rules are mutually exclusive.


I dont think theyve killed anyone, could they be horribly injured yes, but dead no. Nightwing is being written 8 different ways though and its annoying.

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't know, it seemed an awful lot like they killed people in that impromptu fight with the soldiers. And, whether they killed anyone or not, it's indisputable that Nightwing gave the order to let those innocents be murdered. All I know is, I'm going to be keeping my eyes peeled in 52 for some explanation of why Nightwing is all over the morality map lately.

[Darthphere]

I don't know, it seemed an awful lot like they killed people in that impromptu fight with the soldiers. And, whether they killed anyone or not, it's indisputable that Nightwing gave the order to let those innocents be murdered. All I know is, I'm going to be keeping my eyes peeled in 52 for some explanation of why Nightwing is all over the morality map lately.


Yeah though, I think its the reason Arsenal is not with the Outsiders, he didnt agree with his way of doing things. Arsenal is more classic superhero.

[TheCorpulent1]

Ironic if Arsenal quit because he wouldn't recognize the need to kill in Nightwing's covert war, given that Green Arrow has murdered people while Batman never has.

[Darthphere]

Ironic if Arsenal quit because he wouldn't recognize the need to kill in Nightwing's covert war, given that Green Arrow has murdered people while Batman never has.


I really dont know, I just find it odd not to see Roy here since technically, its his team.

[TheCorpulent1]

His co-team, really. I miss him, myself. Part of the appeal of Outsiders was the Roy/Dick chemistry.

[Darthphere]

His co-team, really. I miss him, myself. Part of the appeal of Outsiders was the Roy/Dick chemistry.


Yeah, does anyone have a clue what Arsenal is doing OYL???

[Anubis]

I think he's gonna die in IC.

[Darthphere]

I think he's gonna die in IC.


Shut the **** up.:(

[Anubis]

I mean come on, he's nowhere to be seen. I mean, he's not in the Outsiders, he's not with the titans, he's not even with Checkmate (Which would have made sense.) Where the hell is he? I hate to say it, but things don't look good for Roy....:(

[Nightwing]

Yeah, does anyone have a clue what Arsenal is doing OYL???

He's shown on the cover of IC #7 fighting Man-Bat, and I can't shake of the feeling that he'll have death knocking on his door toward the end. Roy hasn't been mentioned once in Outsiders or any other OYL title, especially Green Arrow. Perhaps though, if he survives the Crisis he'll play an important part in 52 THEN we'll probably see where exactly his whereabouts are. The possibilities are endless, they could even be waiting to bring him back to join the new JLA. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Darthphere]

I mean come on, he's nowhere to be seen. I mean, he's not in the Outsiders, he's not with the titans, he's not even with Checkmate (Which would have made sense.) Where the hell is he? I hate to say it, but things don't look good for Roy....:(


Yeah and did they mention if was with the rest of the Arrow clan training on some island?

[Anubis]

Nope, just Mia and Conner.

[Nightwing]

How many of you think Roy will die?

[Superman \S/]

How many of you think Roy will die?

I do, Bats. :(

[Anubis]

I don't know. Ask me again when IC #7 comes out. :)

[TheCorpulent1]

I mean come on, he's nowhere to be seen. I mean, he's not in the Outsiders, he's not with the titans, he's not even with Checkmate (Which would have made sense.) Where the hell is he? I hate to say it, but things don't look good for Roy....:(
After the whole deal with Superboy, I'm inclined to agree. Nearly everyone got some mention post-OYL, but Roy and Conner were the two most notable absences to me. Things are looking grim in mudville...

Although, now that you mention Checkmate, the Black Queen's Knight died before the first issue of Checkmate was even over. Maybe Roy'll replace him, since he's powerless and thus balances Fire. He does have all that super-nifty CIA (or whatever the DC counterpart to it was called) experience, after all.

[Harlekin]

No, the parts about how Nightwing recommitted himself to taking responsibility and upholding heroic ideals pre-OYL, and now he's apparently okay with that African government slaughtering innocents when he's in a position to stop them. "Big picture" my ass, if he were really sticking to his heroic guns he'd find a way to save those villagers and get the top guy instead of reaming Thunder for doing the right thing, even at the cost of her cover. Also, it seemed an awful lot like he was just casually letting the Outsiders kill people, what with the whole throwing trucks full of people and watching them explode deal. Metamorpho as a layer of sentient chloroform, seeking out the villains' noses, couldn't have been more efficient?
Yeah, that kinda surprised me too, although it is true to the Outsiders' mission statement. Batman used to overthrow governments all the time back in the day. ;) But I'd agree that Nightwing would try and find a way to do both. It hasn't bothered me all that much yet, but I hope we get some kind of explanation.

[Darthphere]

After the whole deal with Superboy, I'm inclined to agree. Nearly everyone got some mention post-OYL, but Roy and Conner were the two most notable absences to me. Things are looking grim in mudville...

Although, now that you mention Checkmate, the Black Queen's Knight died before the first issue of Checkmate was even over. Maybe Roy'll replace him, since he's powerless and thus balances Fire. He does have all that super-nifty CIA (or whatever the DC counterpart to it was called) experience, after all.


Roy was in Checkmate before wasnt he?

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't know if he was with Checkmate specifically. I know he was a government agent at some point.

[Darthphere]

I don't know if he was with Checkmate specifically. I know he was a government agent at some point.


I remember during Archer's Quest Roy told Ollie he had to round up all his Checkmate contacts to get Thomas Blake's address or something.

[Anubis]

Yeah, Roy was a member of CHeckmate after he was a member of the DEA.

[TheCorpulent1]

I guess he either was with Checkmate or he worked very closely with them. I think I remember him working for the DEO, and I think the DEO used to have jurisdiction over Checkmate. Or I'm making **** up because I'm confused.

[Darthphere]

Yeah, Roy was a member of CHeckmate after he was a member of the DEA.


See im not crazy.....

[TheCorpulent1]

Sure you are. You're just not wrong in this one case.

[Darthphere]

Sure you are. You're just not wrong in this one case.


Its true.:(

[Stealth_Prime]

Ah trust me guys....Let em kill Roy and Conner off. You KNOW DC's just gonna bring them back more revamped and a lot more cooler then how they are now...Conner had to die, so that when they bring him back...he could have more powers rather then the tacktile-telekenises and heat vision and flight and super hearing, let him have other powers Superman doesn't have like oh.....for example the power to travel through time and dimensions...or the power to cross from one hyper time world to another at will. Kind of like teleporting but not in a regular sense but rather flying at a certain speed and vibration to reach the other reality. You know other possibilities.
And Roy was just damn annoying for me. I want him to come back with that Jason Todd, Time Drake, Dick Grayson plus Deathstroke the Terminator attitude where the job and the money are more important rather then the 'I wanna sleep with every super heroine and for that I'm cool. can anyone say Carlito wannabe???
But honestly, DC can draw him all grown up, shaved, single parent, and independent, but if they can't loose his attitude he's still going to be Speedy to everyone else.
If Batman and Green Arrow ever went head to head, I know that the fight would be worth seeing....
But if you add Nightwing vs Speedy in the ring...sorry Speedy's out faster then Mike Tyson's fastest knockout in the first round. And that bs in the outsiders where he and Roy went at it after he got shot???? PLEASE! I mean hello??? The writers are trying too hard with that scene. As if Roy could really hold his own against Nightwing.
Remember when the Titans cartoon put them up against one another? First in Titan's West and the other in the Contest? Speedy just doesn't compare with Robin...
Let's face it as of now, Roy's trying to hard to come out of Nightwing's shadow, but can't do it on his own...he really needs something serious to happen to him more 'cutting edge'

[Speedball]

Roy isn't going to die. he's gonna join checkmate

[Harlekin]

Ah trust me guys....Let em kill Roy and Conner off. You KNOW DC's just gonna bring them back more revamped and a lot more cooler then how they are now...Conner had to die, so that when they bring him back...he could have more powers rather then the tacktile-telekenises and heat vision and flight and super hearing, let him have other powers Superman doesn't have like oh.....for example the power to travel through time and dimensions...or the power to cross from one hyper time world to another at will. Kind of like teleporting but not in a regular sense but rather flying at a certain speed and vibration to reach the other reality. You know other possibilities.
And Roy was just damn annoying for me. I want him to come back with that Jason Todd, Time Drake, Dick Grayson plus Deathstroke the Terminator attitude where the job and the money are more important rather then the 'I wanna sleep with every super heroine and for that I'm cool. can anyone say Carlito wannabe???
But honestly, DC can draw him all grown up, shaved, single parent, and independent, but if they can't loose his attitude he's still going to be Speedy to everyone else.
If Batman and Green Arrow ever went head to head, I know that the fight would be worth seeing....
But if you add Nightwing vs Speedy in the ring...sorry Speedy's out faster then Mike Tyson's fastest knockout in the first round. And that bs in the outsiders where he and Roy went at it after he got shot???? PLEASE! I mean hello??? The writers are trying too hard with that scene. As if Roy could really hold his own against Nightwing.
Remember when the Titans cartoon put them up against one another? First in Titan's West and the other in the Contest? Speedy just doesn't compare with Robin...
Let's face it as of now, Roy's trying to hard to come out of Nightwing's shadow, but can't do it on his own...he really needs something serious to happen to him more 'cutting edge'
Actually, Roy probably has a better chance against Nightwing than Ollie would ever hope to have against Batman. Roy has actually been trained as a fighter, unlike Ollie. And I really don't want to see Roy devolved into some mercenary guy.

[Stealth_Prime]

Okay, maybe Roy as a mercenary is too much....how about an instructor for the Arrow Academy? (name can be changed) I think it would be cool that he, Mia and Lian (in a few years) could open up an academy. Since Dick wouldn't have time to do it....I think by separating Dick and Roy in this manner can give Roy more individuality, letting him have more interaction with younger students and be more of a father figure and leader-type to them and thus make him more credible to the other readers, who are deadset on fanning for Nightwing. I can see Roy's potential...but the way how the writers are treating him is a 3rd rate basement Nightwing with emphasis on the hormone factor. After all they're like the Titan's/Outsiders Odd-Couple.....Nightwing is the strict and orderly guy and Roy is the more impulsive and brash type. Two sides of the same coin, but the heavier side is still on Nightwing.
Besides, doesn't Dick have more experience as a fighter then Roy? So, given his experience, and the strictness of Batman's discipline...
Not to mention the overall experience of being Batman's partner; wouldn't that naturally strengthen Dick's fighting abilities over Roy's? I thought Roy's training mainly stemmed from target shooting. After all, Bruce learned from several master of the world, and passed his knowledge to his sidekicks...Oliver learned from the Budda's (is that right? If I'm wrong, I apoligize)
who added to Roy's skills.
I'm open to Roy winning over Dick, but thus far from the books I've read.... it just doesn't seem possible.
Someone please educate me so I can correct my opinion.

[Harlekin]

Oh, I'd give it to Nightwing in a fight most of the time, but Roy would obviously have a much better chance than Ollie would against Batman (or Nightwing, for that matter). Roy is still a government operative, trained in their ways, he has more skills than just target shooting.

[warren_sparta27]

Roy is joining Checkmate? is that just rumour or was it in checkmate #1?

[The Red Skull]

Don't know about Roy, but Connor's going to have a new mini out, apparently. Didn't Didio confirm that ages ago?

[The_Mystery]

If anyone out there believe that Roy can't beat Nightwing, you gotta sell me some of what you're smokin'.

[TheCorpulent1]

Roy is joining Checkmate? is that just rumour or was it in checkmate #1?
It's just a rumor at this point. He wasn't in #1, but the Black Queen's Knight got killed, leaving an open slot in the organization's ranks.