Everyone here is PRO-Muslim and ANTI-Every other religion

[sinewave]

Well to my knowledge,Scientology is based on principles derived from analytical psychology.I almost got into that crap.

wait, so scientology is based on analytical psychology but they believe psychology is a psuedo-science? that's pretty hypocritical, right?

[jaguarr]

then maybe we should.

I wholeheartedly agree. If we can convince the rest of society of that, then we'll really have accompilshed something. I don't have very high hopes of that, though.

jag

[jaguarr]

Its not that hard.

The definetion of a Religion was posted for Scientology, so I posted the definition of a Cult for Scientology.

I'd say that was appropriate, Mentok.

jag

[PhotoJones]

Its not that hard.

The definetion of a Religion was posted for Scientology, so I posted the definition of a Cult for Scientology.

i don't understand why. cult or no cult, scientology is still a religion. if people believe it, it's a religion.

now, as far as it being a cult, sure. it probably is. it probably uses the same techniques of conversion and brain-washing that every religion uses, whether it's christianity, judaism or islam. they can all be considered cults if you want to think in those terms.

[Mentok]

i don't understand why. cult or no cult, scientology is still a religion. if people believe it, it's a religion.

now, as far as it being a cult, sure. it probably is. it probably uses the same techniques of conversion and brain-washing that every religion uses, whether it's christianity, judaism or islam. they can all be considered cults if you want to think in those terms.

A definition of religion was posted to support Scientology. I posted a definition of a cult because it also fits.

Im not trying to start anything, frankly Scientology dosent deserve the effort.

[Spider-Bite]

what is scientology?

[jaguarr]

what is scientology?

It's a cult. :)

jag

[Spider-Bite]

It's a cult. :)

jag

I meant what do they believe?

[jaguarr]

I meant what do they believe?

That an alien ruler named Xenu...oh, hell, just Google it or check out Wikipedia for it. the sci-fi author L. Ron Hubbard invented it as a goof and a way to make money. It's popular with a lot of celebrities.

jag

[PhotoJones]

It's a cult. :)

jag

i hate you. :)

[jaguarr]

i hate you. :)

LOL! I'll admit that answer was just for you. :D

jag

[PhotoJones]

LOL! I'll admit that answer was just for you. :D

jag

it made me laugh. :up:




turd.

[Super_Ludacris]

Your a Scientoligist?

[ShadowBoxing]

I meant what do they believe?Its based on a book called Dianetics. The fundamental theory is that during birth we all possesses (I'm doing this from memory) a prememory. A memory of our past, as I understand Alien soul, life. Within that we have two sides of our brain, a rational and reactive...the reactive side (which would include things like anger, greed, lust, addiction) happens when a traumatic event of stimuli causes us to relive this prememory. The reliving of it is so sudden and jolting that we go into a reactive state. The purpose of scientology is to make the subject revisit and come to terms with this prememory, and from that transcend to some higher existence.

L Ron Hubard, the creator who labelled as a psuedo-scientist, challenged contemporary psychology to put his method of reliving (the n-gram) rememory to the test. He purposed a psyche-off, they never took up his offer.

[Superman4ever]

sometimes people probably feel more threatened by Christianity because there are sucha big majority. at the same time we put higher stnadards on 'Christains because most of them in today's world are educated and they don't live hungry, starving, and oppressed in the desert. Now in rescent History Christianity has appeared less dangerous than Islam.

My personal opinion? Religion can be used like a gun. It can protect your family or feed a starving person. Or it can be used to kill people. Everybody picks and chooses which parts of the religion they follow and don't follow. Religion is merely used to justify bad acts so people can do them and not admit they are wrong. But being a member of a religion does not obligate you or force you into being a christain bigget or a muslim bigget or terrorist or conservative.

As a whole? I think Christains have acheived a lot more social progress than Muslims, but that's as far as it goes. Neither religion is better than the other. I don't know much about the values set forth by Muhhamed, the founder of Islam, but I approve of the Liberal direction for religion set forth by Jesus.

You're getting a lot (a LOT) of your facts screwed up here buddy. If you indicated during the 'Industrial period' I might have agreed, but you stating "as a whole" and that is completely false. Many, if not most, of the social progress that Christians made was a direct influence from Muslims. Prior to the crusades Europeans knew nothing of chivalry, which is an Arab/ Muslim code of conduct.

http://steppenreiter.de/royal_chivalry.htm

The European renaissance was due only to the Islamic renaissance in which Europeans were taught by Arab scholars and books. Mathematics, Astronomy, Biology, Medicine, Literature, etc. were all catalyzed by Muslims. Europeans didn't even know how to make paper before the Muslims. The hospitals that you see today, all over the world, where sick patients are quarantined from one another to prevent infection; where doctors wash their hands and surgical equipment is sterilized/ or cleaned before a procedure are Muslim innovations.

I could go on, and I wish I could, but I've got finals galore, however, for the moment your post has a lot on inaccurate facts that you are basing on misconceived opinion.

Here's a good source that gives you a broad idea of the rich history and influence Muslims have had...http://www.middleeastnews.com/intoarab101.html

Here's an excerpt from the Education section:

The Prophet Muhammad said "it is the duty of every Muslim man and woman to seek education," and under his influence, the Arabs were encouraged to pursue knowledge for its own sake....In the eleventh and twelfth centuries, as Arab influence spread to Spain, Sicily and the rest of Europe, Europeans became increasingly aware of Arab advancements in many fields, especially education and science. Books were translated from Arabic into Latin and, later, to vernacular language. European schools which had long limited learning to the "seven liberal arts" began to expand their curricula.
For some five hundred years, Arab learning and scholarship played a major role in the development of education in the West. The Arabs brought with them well-developed techniques in translation and research and opened new vistas in areas of medicine, the physical sciences and mathematics. Application of empiricism in all fields of study was rapidly incorporated into the learning system of those who became familiar with Arab methodology.
Long before the popularization of the phrase "transfer of technology," a term used to describe advanced expertise which developed nations offer to Third World countries; the Arabs shared their accumulated knowledge and institutions with the rest of the world.

[GarudA]

Well actually no, here is a thread you can read that debunks most of the so called Muslim inventions.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18360&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[InsaneMembrane]

What does it matter if they were muslims or christians? Unless their discoveries were found in the Qur'an or the Bible, these people's religions had nothing to do with their discoveries.

[GarudA]

What does it matter if they were muslims or christians? Unless their discoveries were found in the Qur'an or the Bible, these people's religions had nothing to do with their discoveries.

Most of the claims that people make that they found science from the Qu'ran is nothing more then stolen ideas/work. Alot of them are from the ancient Greeks which was pre-Qu'ran.

http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/avijit/Quran_miracle.htm

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/avijitroy/science_mirackes.htm

[raybia]

What does it matter if they were muslims or christians? Unless their discoveries were found in the Qur'an or the Bible, these people's religions had nothing to do with their discoveries.


Its an example and an acknowlegment of the contributions that a particular group of people made to the world.

The achievements of every group should be made known to society as a whole so that we can have an appreciation towards each other, rather than looking at a particular group as worthless with no meaningful history.

[jaguarr]

Its an example and an acknowlegment of the contributions that a particular group of people made to the world.

The achievements of every group should be made known to society as a whole so that we can have an appreciation towards each other, rather than looking at a particular group as worthless with no meaningful history.

If raybia had typed this tomorrow then he would be wrong, but since he did so today I can only say that he's absolutely correct. :up:

jag

[Superman4ever]

You mean?

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article350594.ece

http://www.1001inventions.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=main.viewSection&intSectionID=309

Thank you for proving my point! Actually the forum contains many people who actually agree that these inventions/ innovations ARE Islamic. You have the usual suspects on that site that will deny everything and give you un-provable and unaccredited facts. While EVERYthing on the Islamic Inventors site pertains to at least 1 historical document that can actually be seen, read and studied.

GaurdA your little game is getting a little silly at this point and it's rather pathetic. You left Islam! Great for you, may you live a peaceful, rich and blessed life as an agnostic, atheist, whatever you are, but you are spreading nothing but lies that have been proven FALSE time and time again, by not one but dozens and dozens of scholars and Islamic historian (Muslims and non-Muslims). You and your buddies at faith freedom base all of your rhetoric on misconceptions and blatant lies. You guys drag a fragment of a sentence out of its literal and historic contexts and claim it proves that the Prophet and Islam are violent. It's an unending cycle of deception and lies on that web-site created by atheist who claims every religion is wrong and that there is no G-d, and when given evidence that disproves their pathetic lies they simply deny it no matter how many sources are given.

You pathetic, grow up and move on!

[raybia]

Well actually no, here is a thread you can read that debunks most of the so called Muslim inventions.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18360&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

There are also threads that debunks the Jewish holocaust, so that fact on its own merit means nothing.

Both Eastern and Western Scholars in academia have long ago acknowledged the accomplishments of Muslims and the Arabs to the age of Enlightenment and to society.

Those who want to deny it as well as historical events like the holocaust are free to believe what they want. :up: :)

[Superman4ever]

There are also threads that debunks the Jewish holocaust, so that fact on its own merit means nothing.

Both Eastern and Western Scholars in academia have long ago acknowledged the accomplishments of Muslims and the Arabs to the age of Enlightenment and to society.

Those who want to deny it as well as historical events like the holocaust are free to believe what they want. :up: :)

Yup! :up:

[Spider-Bite]

You're getting a lot (a LOT) of your facts screwed up here buddy. If you indicated during the 'Industrial period' I might have agreed, but you stating "as a whole" and that is completely false. Many, if not most, of the social progress that Christians made was a direct influence from Muslims. Prior to the crusades Europeans knew nothing of chivalry, which is an Arab/ Muslim code of conduct.

http://steppenreiter.de/royal_chivalry.htm

The European renaissance was due only to the Islamic renaissance in which Europeans were taught by Arab scholars and books. Mathematics, Astronomy, Biology, Medicine, Literature, etc. were all catalyzed by Muslims. Europeans didn't even know how to make paper before the Muslims. The hospitals that you see today, all over the world, where sick patients are quarantined from one another to prevent infection; where doctors wash their hands and surgical equipment is sterilized/ or cleaned before a procedure are Muslim innovations.

I could go on, and I wish I could, but I've got finals galore, however, for the moment your post has a lot on inaccurate facts that you are basing on misconceived opinion.

Here's a good source that gives you a broad idea of the rich history and influence Muslims have had...http://www.middleeastnews.com/intoarab101.html

Here's an excerpt from the Education section:

The Prophet Muhammad said "it is the duty of every Muslim man and woman to seek education," and under his influence, the Arabs were encouraged to pursue knowledge for its own sake....In the eleventh and twelfth centuries, as Arab influence spread to Spain, Sicily and the rest of Europe, Europeans became increasingly aware of Arab advancements in many fields, especially education and science. Books were translated from Arabic into Latin and, later, to vernacular language. European schools which had long limited learning to the "seven liberal arts" began to expand their curricula.
For some five hundred years, Arab learning and scholarship played a major role in the development of education in the West. The Arabs brought with them well-developed techniques in translation and research and opened new vistas in areas of medicine, the physical sciences and mathematics. Application of empiricism in all fields of study was rapidly incorporated into the learning system of those who became familiar with Arab methodology.
Long before the popularization of the phrase "transfer of technology," a term used to describe advanced expertise which developed nations offer to Third World countries; the Arabs shared their accumulated knowledge and institutions with the rest of the world.

In today's world most Christains live in places where information and opinions and viewpoints are shared freely. This leads to "social progess." MOst Muslims today live in the middle east full of oppression, controlled flow of information, controlled opinions, and hunger and poverty. That is the reason for some of the differences between the two cultures. Here in American I have met many, many atheists. How many do you think you will meet in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia or most of the middle east? Not that many. There is a difference between social progress and technological progress.

The middle east is simply a couple centuries behind the rest of the world. But that does not merit judging Islam, because we can't expect the whole planet to progress nsync with with each other. Even in America Christinaity causes social and political problems. The problems just aren't as severe as most of the problems in the Middle East.

I do know that Jesus was against the death penalty, preached peace, preached acceptance and tolerance, forgiveness, second chances, and not judging.
I know that Muhhamed married a 9 year old girl and consumated his marriage.
I can not get over that.
and for the record I am an atheist who shares many beliefs about vurtues and values with Buddhists.

[raybia]

If raybia had typed this tomorrow then he would be wrong, but since he did so today I can only say that he's absolutely correct. :up:

jag

Whew! :O


Hey, since I'm right today, does that mean I'm the coolest poster on the Hype as is my belief? ;)

[jaguarr]

Whew! :O


Hey, since I'm right today, does that mean I'm the coolest poster on the Hype as is my belief? ;)

Why don't you start a poll and find out? :D

jag

[raybia]

Why don't you start a poll and find out? :D

jag


Uh, maybe later!:O

[jaguarr]

Uh, maybe later!:O

I could start one for you if you're too busy.

jag

[raybia]

I could start one for you if you're too busy.

jag


You are too kind Sir, but nah, I don't want to trouble you. I'll get around to it...later. ;)

[jaguarr]

You are too kind Sir, but nah, I don't want to trouble you. I'll get around to it...later. ;)

No, really, it's absolutely no trouble. I'll go get it started for you.

jag

[raybia]

No, really, it's absolutely no trouble. I'll go get it started for you.

jag


Ok, I concede. I know I'm not the coolest poster on the Hype.

But probably in the top 10. Top 20?, 30? Definitely in the Top 500!:up:

[jaguarr]

Ok, I concede. I know I'm not the coolest poster on the Hype.

But probably in the top 10. Top 20?, 30? Definitely in the Top 500!:up:

I agree with you! :D

jag

[raybia]

I agree with you! :D

jag


Uh, thanks. :( I think.

[jaguarr]

Uh, thanks. :( I think.

You're in the top 100 without a doubt. Today, anyway. :)

jag

[GarudA]

You mean?

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article350594.ece

http://www.1001inventions.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=main.viewSection&intSectionID=309

Thank you for proving my point! Actually the forum contains many people who actually agree that these inventions/ innovations ARE Islamic. You have the usual suspects on that site that will deny everything and give you un-provable and unaccredited facts. While EVERYthing on the Islamic Inventors site pertains to at least 1 historical document that can actually be seen, read and studied.

GaurdA your little game is getting a little silly at this point and it's rather pathetic. You left Islam! Great for you, may you live a peaceful, rich and blessed life as an agnostic, atheist, whatever you are, but you are spreading nothing but lies that have been proven FALSE time and time again, by not one but dozens and dozens of scholars and Islamic historian (Muslims and non-Muslims). You and your buddies at faith freedom base all of your rhetoric on misconceptions and blatant lies. You guys drag a fragment of a sentence out of its literal and historic contexts and claim it proves that the Prophet and Islam are violent. It's an unending cycle of deception and lies on that web-site created by atheist who claims every religion is wrong and that there is no G-d, and when given evidence that disproves their pathetic lies they simply deny it no matter how many sources are given.

You pathetic, grow up and move on!

You really should have paid attention to the thread for your creditable source.

Oh don't get so upset, your making me want to cry out loud. I am touched that you have remembered me. We at Faithfreedom have missed you, you really should drop by somtime and say high we were geting worried.

Actually I really don't post anything at Faithfreedom. I ocasianly read posts.

By the way I have no game. My claims that Islam is violent and false is proven by the Qu'ran. I've read the Qu'ran in english and my mother tongue Turkish and have both times came up with the same conclusion. It will just be futile if I just start to quotes and provide links to back my claim.

[Superman4ever]

In today's world most Christains live in places where information and opinions and viewpoints are shared freely. This leads to "social progess." MOst Muslims today live in the middle east full of oppression, controlled flow of information, controlled opinions, and hunger and poverty. That is the reason for some of the differences between the two cultures. Here in American I have met many, many atheists. How many do you think you will meet in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia or most of the middle east? Not that many. There is a difference between social progress and technological progress.

The middle east is simply a couple centuries behind the rest of the world. But that does not merit judging Islam, because we can't expect the whole planet to progress nsync with with each other. Even in America Christinaity causes social and political problems. The problems just aren't as severe as most of the problems in the Middle East.

I do know that Jesus was against the death penalty, preached peace, preached acceptance and tolerance, forgiveness, second chances, and not judging.
I know that Muhhamed married a 9 year old girl and consumated his marriage.
I can not get over that.
and for the record I am an atheist who shares many beliefs about vurtues and values with Buddhists.

That's a sleazy attempt at proving your point.

Firstly, Iraq prior to the 2nd gulf war was as secular as they get. Women in high leg skirts were not uncommon. So that little fact was actually wrong. Secondly, corrupt dictators are not really known for their fairness and equality. All the governments that you listed, save for Iran (which is debatable), were forced upon the people and were actually put in power by western powers. Actually, who supported the Aytollahs against the Shah of Iran in the 70's? Hint: U.S...of...?

About Muhammad and Aiesha, many sources put her at the ages between 15 and 18 of her marriage, and this site gives the proof.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=375

Moreover, most other sources state 12-14, and an even smaller minority state that she was nine based on a loosely translated sentence that Aiesha made herself. If, for arguments sake she was 9 the marriage was totally acceptable at that time, all over the WORLD, and even his enemies that wanted to kill him, and the Islamic faith more than anything did not resist or protest the marriage. Aiesia’s parents were the ones who married her to the Prophet, and that no Muslim or even pagan objected to the marriage because it was widely practiced. Also, had the prophet refused there would have been a very real chance that the Islam would have fallen apart because it would have lead to a strife within the community.

Also, People used to have very short life-spans in Arabia and throughout the rest of the world. They used to live between 40 to 60 years maximum. So it was only normal and natural for girls to be married off at ages 9 or 10 or similar. You are condemning a man that lived 1400 years ago by today’s standards, removing all historical contexts. http://answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm

[raybia]

My claims that Islam is violent and false is proven by the Qu'ran.

What you claim to be violent, I can claim Islam promotes self-defense and make my case with the Qur'an. If you want to call Islam to task for that, I can make a case for all of mankind whether religion is involved or not. The Muslims of Prophet Mohammed's time was declared war on by the Meccans. It they had not fought back, they would have been utterly destroyed.

Is War violent? You bet it is. Islam does preach not passiveness. Every creature on Earth practices self-defense so no need for Islam to apologize for avocating it.

However, you are not able to prove anything...except to yourself and those who are already hostile towards the religion.


I've read the Qu'ran in english and my mother tongue Turkish and have both times came up with the same conclusion.

The Qu'ran in the direct word of G-d revealed to Mohammed in Classical Arabic.

So unless you know and comprehend Quranic Arabic, you haven't read the Qur'an, you have only read someone's English and Turkish interpretation of it. BIG DIFFERENCE.



It will just be futile if I just start to quotes and provide links to back my claim.

Go ahead and start quoting some person's interpretation of the Qur'an taken out of context. It won't be the first time that Hype poster's have done this and we will be happy to refute your claims.

[Superman4ever]

Go ahead and start quoting some person's interpretation of the Qur'an taken out of context. It won't be the first time that Hype poster's have done this and we will be happy to refute your claims.

Actually more than happy! ;)

[Spider-Bite]

That's a sleazy attempt at proving your point.

Firstly, Iraq prior to the 2nd gulf war was as secular as they get. Women in high leg skirts were not uncommon. So that little fact was actually wrong. Secondly, corrupt dictators are not really known for their fairness and equality. All the governments that you listed, save for Iran (which is debatable), were forced upon the people and were actually put in power by western powers. Actually, who supported the Aytollahs against the Shah of Iran in the 70's? Hint: U.S...of...?

About Muhammad and Aiesha, many sources put her at the ages between 15 and 18 of her marriage, and this site gives the proof.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=375

Moreover, most other sources state 12-14, and an even smaller minority state that she was nine based on a loosely translated sentence that Aiesha made herself. If, for arguments sake she was 9 the marriage was totally acceptable at that time, all over the WORLD, and even his enemies that wanted to kill him, and the Islamic faith more than anything did not resist or protest the marriage. Aiesia’s parents were the ones who married her to the Prophet, and that no Muslim or even pagan objected to the marriage because it was widely practiced. Also, had the prophet refused there would have been a very real chance that the Islam would have fallen apart because it would have lead to a strife within the community.

Also, People used to have very short life-spans in Arabia and throughout the rest of the world. They used to live between 40 to 60 years maximum. So it was only normal and natural for girls to be married off at ages 9 or 10 or similar. You are condemning a man that lived 1400 years ago by today’s standards, removing all historical contexts. http://answering-christianity.com/aisha.htm

9 YEARS OLD! That is abuse. That is child molestation. How could a grown man even be physically attracted to a child? pregnancy in the rare case that it would be possible would most likely be lethal to a kid that age. NOt to mention how come the girl has to be young? why not an older women with a younger male?
Christains used to oppress women, and muslims still do. Thus my centuries behind argument.
and social progress isn't completely decided by how religous a person is. I have debated conservative atheists many times. most atheists are liberal but a small number are conservative.

In TODYA'S world christains are presently socially advanced over muslims. That might not always be the case, but it is for right now. To say differently would be very ignorant. Hell most muslims in the world probably don't even know what Homo Erectus is. They probably would think it's some kind of gay erection or something.

[musclesforsupes]

muslim have caught the fever!

[Superman4ever]

9 YEARS OLD! That is abuse. That is child molestation. How could a grown man even be physically attracted to a child? pregnancy in the rare case that it would be possible would most likely be lethal to a kid that age. NOt to mention how come the girl has to be young? Christains used to oppress women, and muslims still do. Thus my centuries behind argument.

:rolleyes:
Non-Muslim counry:
http://answering-christianity.com/thaigal.jpg

Christian wedding:
http://answering-christianity.com/gypsy_girl.htm

It's happening today in non-Muslim countries. You don't even hear about these types of marriages in the Muslim world, and the fact is that you are using manipulated facts. If you looked at the first site I gave you most estimates age her at at LEAST 15 when she married the prophet. You have 12 year old girls here in the states getting pregnant and birth to children.


why not an older women with a younger male?

Muhammad 1st wife, his great love, was 15 years his senior actually. She proposed to him... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khadijah_bint_Khuwaylid

Do you know anything or is this just a case of slander and demonization on your part?

You haven't stated any facts just misconstrued opinions.

[Spider-Bite]

there is a 25% age differnece between 12 and 9 and it's still wrong either way.

[Spider-Bite]

I don't think you even know what my opinion is. My opinion is that right now on average Christains are more accepting and tolerant of diverse cultures and lifestyles and creeds than Muslims are. my opinion is not that all muslims are bad people nor that all christains are bad people.

You want a fact? In Afghanistan a man was almost killed for being a Christain. Terrorists flew airplanes into buildings under the belief that they would be rewarded with 72 virgin sex slaves in heaven!

another fact? a friend of mine who grew up in the middle east now lives in Ameirca. He hates all forms of religion, and thinks they are dangrous to the survival of the human race. He knows for a fact in the middle east many people prey every day for the end of the world.

[raybia]

You want a fact? In Afghanistan a man was almost killed for being a Christain. Terrorists flew airplanes into buildings under the belief that they would be rewarded with 72 virgin sex slaves in heaven!

Here is another fact. You will NOT FIND ANYTHING IN THE QURAN THAT SUPPOPTS THIS AND IN FACT YOU WILL FIND THAT THE QURAN SPEAKS OUT AGAINST FORCING A RELIGION ON A PERSON AND SUICIDE AND MURDERING OF INNOCENTS.



What Afghanistan was going to do is wrong and UnIslamic. Consequently, this is the form of Government in Afghanistan that the U.S. helped to establish.

[Superman4ever]

there is a 25% age differnece between 12 and 9 and it's still wrong either way.

Today it's wrong by your standards, but back then (1500 years ago) it was OK, the NORM and 100% legal and accepted. Secondly, 15-17 years old was the most likely age so quit it with the hate-rhetoric.

And let's put things in perspective shall we: http://answering-christianity.com/age3.htm

Also US law dictates that childeren 14 years or older can marry with their parents consent. http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/Table_Marriage.htm

Bat Mitzvah (12-13 years old) were used by agricultural societies to marry off thier childern. There's a reason for this because back then people DIDN'T live the extended lives we live today. http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/cycle/bar_mitzvah.htm

The average death of a person in France in the 1700's was 30-40 years old. Therefore, to have children people married really young. In the US between 1900 and 2000, life expectancy in the United States increased from 51 to 80 for females and from 48 to 74 for males.

http://www.prb.org/AmeristatTemplate.cfm?Section=Mortality1&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=7911

[jaguarr]

My opinion is that right now on average Christains are more accepting and tolerant of diverse cultures and lifestyles and creeds than Muslims are.

Really? I don't see that at all. I see just as many holier-than-thou A-Holes on the Christian side as I do on the Islamic side running their mouths off and saying things that go against the very grain of what they're supposed to believe in. Extremists on both sides have made things much worse than they really should be and neither has any more space to point fingers than the other. They both share responsibility there. The key word in all of that is "extremists", though, who don't really represent the true core of those religions. I can't help but think you may be basing much of your perspective off of what you might know about Islamic extremists, rather than your average, everyday Muslim.

jag

[Spider-Bite]

What Afghanistan was going to do is wrong and UnIslamic. Consequently, this is the form of Government in Afghanistan that the U.S. helped to establish.

the majority of Afghanistan citizens supported it.

According to the Old Testament and the QURAN anybody who believes in false Gods or prophets or blasphemes shall be put to death. In Iraq the people want a constitution that says no law shall contradict Islamic law.

Jesus said accept and tolerate diverse cultures and lifestyles. But our religous right wing church goers still support a constitutional ammendmant to ban gay marraige. Many very rescently in American's history suppported throwing gays in prison. Texas was doing this as rescent as two years ago.
In the middle east? Most gays would be executed.

I did not say Christianity is a better religion than Islam. The religions are what the followers make it, thus the whole problem with religion. people twist and turn it to justify whatever they want to do. which is why almost every religion on earth only hurts our progress.

My whole point is that today christains, not christianity, are socially more advanced and more politically correct and Liberal than most muslims, not Islam.

[Phaser]

Actually more than happy! ;)

And ever prepared. :marv:

[Phaser]

9 YEARS OLD! That is abuse. That is child molestation. How could a grown man even be physically attracted to a child? pregnancy in the rare case that it would be possible would most likely be lethal to a kid that age. NOt to mention how come the girl has to be young?

I've made an extensive post regarding the Prophet's marriage to Ayesha in another thread:

You can read about Aisha's marriage to the Prophet in more detail here. (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544940)

For all you lazy bums, here are a few quotes for you:


-As for the Prophet’s condition before this marriage, it clearly explained what we’ve said that it was a purely sublime aim and purpose that motivated him to marry `Aisha. That’s why the marriage was not consummated until sometime after the emigration to Madinah, when she had reached maturity.

-It should be noted that in the hot regions, it’s normal for a girl to attain maturity at a very early age. Thus the case is totally different from that which does exist in the cold regions where a girl does not attain puberty before 21 [Physicians maintain that the age of puberty in the hot regions normally ranges from 9 to 16]. At all rates, it should be stressed that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, on marrying `Aisha, never aimed at fulfilling a lust or satisfying a desire; rather, his aim was to strengthen his relation with the most beloved Companion of his.

-...the fact that `Aisha, before the Prophet proposed to her, was being pursued by Jubair ibn Mut`am, indicates that she was mature enough for marriage, according to the prevailing tradition at that time...

-`Aisha was not the first case, for many girls married at her same age to men who were at their fathers’ age. Hala, the cousin of Amina bint Wahb was married to Abdul-Muttalib on the same day his son `Abdullah married Aminah bint Wahb who was at Hala’s same age. Also, the Companion `Umar ibn Al-Khattab married the daughter of Ali ibn Abi Talib, may Allah honor his face, while he was at her grandpa’s age.

And if I might add:

The age of Aisha at marriage is an extremely contentious issue. On the one hand, there are several hadiths which are said to have been narrated by Aisha herself, which claim that she was six or seven years old when betrothed and nine when the marriage was consummated. On the other hand, calculations based on information found in an early Muslim chronicler, Ibn Ishaq, indicate that Aisha was at least fourteen to sixteen years old, thus past the age of puberty. Other hadiths suggest that Aisha may have been nineteen or twenty years old when she married.

Evidence that Aisha was nine when the marriage was consummated

These traditions are from the hadith collections of Bukhari (d. 870) and Muslim b. al-Hajjaj (d. 875). These two collections are in general regarded as the most authentic by Sunni Muslims.

* Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: 'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

* Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Narrated 'Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

* Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

* Sahih Bukhari 8:151, Narrated 'Aisha: "I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet , and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

* Sahih Bukhari vol. 5, Book 58, Number 234 Narrated 'Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage).

Evidence that Aisha was much older than nine

* According to Ibn Hisham's recension of Ibn Ishaq's (d. 768) biography of Prophet Muhammad, the Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, Aisha accepted Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab. If true, then Aisha accepted Islam during the first few years of Islam. She could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she got married.

* Tabari reports that when Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Ethiopia (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am - with whose son Aisha was engaged at that time - and asked him to take Aisha as his son's wife. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam. If Aisha was only six years old at the time of her betrothal to Muhammad, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Ethiopia. Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, p. 38.

* Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre Islamic period. If Aisha was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH. Tarikh al-umam wa al-mamloo'k, Al-Tabari, Vol. 4, p. 50.

* According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was 35 years old. Muhammad migrated to Medina when he was 52, making Aisha 14 years old in 1 AH. Tamyeez al-Sahaabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalaniy, Vol. 4, p. 377.

* According to Abd ar Rahman ibn Abi Zannad, Aisha was 10 years younger than her sister Asma. (Siyar a´lâm an-nubalâ', adh-Dhahabî, Vol. 2, p. 289, Mu'assat ar-Risâla, Beirut, 1992). That is also confirmed by Ibn Kathir (al-Bidâya wa-n-nihâya, Ibn Kathîr, Bd. 8, S. 371, Dâr al-Fikr al-´Arabî, al-Dschîza, 1933). Virtually all other historical reports also agree in this matter. Ibn Kathir also reports that Asma was present when her son died in 73 AH and she herself died 5 days thereafter (other reports differ slightly, giving between 5 and 100 days between the deaths of the two). At the time of her death she was 100 years old (al-Bidâya wa-n-nihâya, Ibn Kathîr, Vol. 8, p. 372, Dâr al-Fikr al-´Arabî, al-Dschîza, 1933). This is also confirmed by Ibn Hadschar al-´Asqalânî who reports that she died in 73 or 74 AH at the age of 100 years. (Taqrîb at-tahdhîb, Ibn Hadschar al-´Asqalânî, p. 654, Bâb fi-n-nisâ', harfu l-alif, Lucknow). But this means, of course, that Asma was 27 or 28 years old at 1 AH and the 10 years youger Aisha already 17 or 18, so when Muhammad and Aisha started to live together she was already 19 or 20.

* Aisha has become known for having at the side of Muhammad in the battle of Badr (see for example hadiths by Muslim) as well as in the battle of Uhud (see e.g. hadiths by Bukhari). Bukhari also reports (Kitâb al-maghâzî, Bâb Ghazawat al-Khandaq wa-hiya l-Ahzâb) that the Prophet did not allow 14 year olds to participate but allowed them to join on their 15th birthday. Common sense would also forbid that the Prophet Muhammad would take children into his fighting ranks which would only be a hindrance not to mention that this would clearly be against the spirit of Islam.

* In a hadith of Bukhari, Aisha says: "I was a young girl (dschâriya) when Surah al-Qamar was revealed (Sahîh al-Bukhârî, Kitâb at-tafsîr, Bâb qaulihî Ta´âlâ "Bali-s-sâ´atu mau´iduhum wa-s-sâ´atu ad-hâ wa-amarr"). That Surah was revealed 8 years before Hijra and at that time Aisha would have been at most a baby (sabiyya) had she been only 9 years old at the age of her marriage. The word dschariya is most fitting for a 6-13 year old which would mean her age of marriage would be anywhere between 14 and 21.

* It is unanimously agreed that Aisha had reached the age of puberty at her marriage. This would be highly unlikely for a 9 year old! In addition, Aisha was already termed 'bikr', meaning virgin adult woman even when the marriage was discussed, i.e. 3 years before the actual marriage. (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 6, p. 210, Dâr Ihyâ' at-Turâth al-´Arabî, Beirut).

* Evidence that Aisha was much older comes from many sources, which thus reinforce each other. But all hadith supporting an early age at marriage and consummation can be traced to Urwa (also known as Abu Hisham) and date back to the period after he migrated to Iraq at the age of 71. There are no such hadith collected while he still resided in Medina. Ibn Abbas and others (see Tazeeb al Tazeeb) consider Urwa's hadith from Iraq to be weak; his memory is presumed to have weakened as he aged.

* Some scholars say that the hadith collectors Bukhari and Muslim applied less stringent standards to hadith relating to history than they did to hadith relating directly to prayer and family law. Hence a historical tradition included in Bukhari or Muslim cannot be presumed to be "strong".

Heh, all this quoting from previous threads has become increasingly frequent for me. Guess there would soon come a time when all I'd have to do is just quote earlier posts instead of composing lengthy posts over and over. :O

why not an older women with a younger male?

Did happen with the Prophet's first wive, Khadijah who was a widow to begin with. He was somewhere around 25 years old while she was 40. A whole 15 years difference. Another thing worthy of attention is that the Prophet's second marriage wasn't until he was nearly 50 years old.

Now try pondering on this fact - a man who has spent all his youth with a much older women now suddenly decides to marry multiple wives when he is far past his sexual prime?

Each of the Prophet's marriages after his first one were for a reason:

-Some were to strengthen the relationship with his companion in that a few would give him their daughters (Abu Bakr gave his daughter Ayesha, Umar gave his daughter Hafsa) and the Prophet would give them his daughters in marriage (Uthman was married to two of the Prophet's daughters, Ali was given the Prophet's youngest daughter, Fatima, in marriage).

-Some were to have better relations with the tribes of his wives (Juwayria, Safiyya).

-Some were to clear issues about taboo in society that were considered permissible in Islam law under certain conditions (for example, his marriage to Zaynab).

-Most were to support widows whose husbands were persecuted for their religion (Sawdah, Umm-Habiba and the rest).

It's also worth mentioning that save for Ayesha, every single one his wives was a widow.

[Spider-Bite]

Really? I don't see that at all. I see just as many holier-than-thou A-Holes on the Christian side as I do on the Islamic side running their mouths off and saying things that go against the very grain of what they're supposed to believe in. Extremists on both sides have made things much worse than they really should be and neither has any more space to point fingers than the other. They both share responsibility there. The key word in all of that is "extremists", though, who don't really represent the true core of those religions. I can't help but think you may be basing much of your perspective off of what you might know about Islamic extremists, rather than your average, everyday Muslim.

jag

the ongoing fued between muslims and christians has been going on since before any of us were born, and neither side can be blamed for starting it. The United States is definitely partly to blame for our current foreign relations problems. Decades of trying to boss the middle east around has put us in the middle of this Holy War.

If I were to walk down the streets of the middle east shouting I am an atheist, what would happen to me?

If I did that in America what would happen to me?

[Spider-Bite]

In America 45% of the people support equal marriag erights for straights and gays. I wonder what that statistic is in the middle east?

In America most schools teach their students the scientific theory with scientific evidence as to how the human race came into existence. Evolution.

I wonder how many schools in the middle east teach their students about Evolution.

[Superman4ever]

I don't think you even know what my opinion is. My opinion is that right now on average Christains are more accepting and tolerant of diverse cultures and lifestyles and creeds than Muslims are. my opinion is not that all muslims are bad people nor that all christains are bad people.

You want a fact? In Afghanistan a man was almost killed for being a Christain. Terrorists flew airplanes into buildings under the belief that they would be rewarded with 72 virgin sex slaves in heaven! <<Non are condoned by the Qur'an or Islam.

another fact? a friend of mine who grew up in the middle east now lives in Ameirca. He hates all forms of religion, and thinks they are dangrous to the survival of the human race. He knows for a fact in the middle east many people prey every day for the end of the world.

Like I said who put these people in power? Iran's Ayotollah's were supported by the US. So were the Taliban, who fought the war against the Solviets in the 70's-80's for the US. Saudi Arabia's kings are Bush's hunting buddies...or whatever they do on the weekend. This familiar?

http://accordionguy.blogware.com/Photos/2005/11/short_guide_to_iraq/bush_abdullah_holding_hands.jpg

There are bad people, it happens, and that's the way the world works. I believe we have religion to counter the horrible thing that we experience on this earth. It should give us peace, but there are some, on all sides of the fence that use it as a means of war, and gains. However, my religion teaches me that even if people turn away from G-d that he is omnipotent and merciful and oft-forgiving and loving that forgiveness is not unimaginable. People sin, but forgiveness is a trait that G-d has that is immeasurable.

[jaguarr]

the ongoing fued between muslims and christians has been going on since before any of us were born, and neither side can be blamed for starting it. The United States is definitely partly to blame for our current foreign relations problems. Decades of trying to boss the middle east around has put us in the middle of this Holy War.

If I were to walk down the streets of the middle east shouting I am an atheist, what would happen to me?

If I did that in America what would happen to me?

But none of what you just wrote reflects what you stated earlier:

My opinion is that right now on average Christains are more accepting and tolerant of diverse cultures and lifestyles and creeds than Muslims are.

In fact, your response has nothing to do with what I was commenting on, other than the fact that, if the Christians in the U.S. who have made all these decisions to boss the Middle East around for years were REALLY more accepting and tolerant of diverse cultures and lifestyles then they wouldn't have ever stuck their nose into the Middle East like they have over the decades in the first place.

jag

[Superman4ever]

In America 45% of the people support equal marriag erights for straights and gays. I wonder what that statistic is in the middle east?

In America most schools teach their students the scientific theory with scientific evidence as to how the human race came into existence. Evolution.

I wonder how many schools in the middle east teach their students about Evolution.

You have to be kidding! Iraq was teaching Darwinism/ evolution since before the 1940's. I have my dad's Bio book (50's 2nd or 3rd ed.) should I scan it for you?

Also what schools are teaching evolution here in the US, because I don't remember that on my curriculum.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32444-2005Mar13.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/11/30/MNGVNA3PE11.DTL
http://www.nsta.org/positionstatement&psid=10

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4630737

Example:

Alabama: Biology textbooks in Alabama have included a disclaimer describing evolution as a "controversial theory" since 1996. The Board of Education adopted a softer disclaimer when they revised science guidelines in 2004, describing evolution as one of several scientific theories. But on Nov.10, 2005, the board voted to continue requiring the original disclaimer language.


Who's the intolerent one here?

[Spider-Bite]

Like I said who put these people in power? Iran's Ayotollah's were supported by the US. So were the Taliban, who fought the war against the Solviets in the 70's-80's for the US. Saudi Arabia's kings are Bush's hunting buddies...or whatever they do on the weekend. This familiar?

http://accordionguy.blogware.com/Photos/2005/11/short_guide_to_iraq/bush_abdullah_holding_hands.jpg

There are bad people, it happens, and that's the way the world works. I believe we have religion to counter the horrible thing that we experience on this earth. It should give us peace, but there are some, on all sides of the fence that use it as a means of war, and gains. However, my religion teaches me that even if people turn away from G-d that he is omnipotent and merciful and oft-forgiving and loving that forgiveness is not unimaginable. People sin, but forgiveness is a trait that G-d has that is immeasurable.

Bush is a religous war extremist. I hate the man. I think he belongs in prison. The old testament of the bible is the same as the old testament in the Quran. The only difference in the religion is the post Jesus era. Jesus son of god verses jesus as a prophet and Muhhamed as a prophet. all the old testament stuff is the same in a different language.

[Spider-Bite]

You have to be kidding! Iraq was teaching Darwinism/ evolution since before the 1940's. I have my dad's Bio book (50's 2nd or 3rd ed.) should I scan it for you?

Also what schools are teaching evolution here in the US, because I don't remember that on my curriculum.

Who's the intolerent one here?

wow. thank you. I did not know that, and I am surprised and I do find it interesting.

I don't know how old you are, but the majoirty of schools do teach evolution today, but not all of them.

[Phaser]

The old testament of the bible is the same as the old testament in the Quran.

Uhhh dude, there is only one Qur'an. No Testaments, old or new.

[Superman4ever]

wow. thank you. I did not know that, and I am surprised and I do find it interesting.

I don't know how old you are, but the majoirty of schools do teach evolution today, but not all of them.

Just turned 24! And I don't remember it. I'm a soon to be Med student, and am working on a PhD in cancer biology right now, and I took nearly every science class in HS, and I didn't learn about Evolution until I took the collage level Biology (bio 130), in my Senior year of HS, at U-Mich hear in Dearborn.

[Spider-Bite]

But none of what you just wrote reflects what you stated earlier:



In fact, your response has nothing to do with what I was commenting on, other than the fact that, if the Christians in the U.S. who have made all these decisions to boss the Middle East around for years were REALLY more accepting and tolerant of diverse cultures and lifestyles then they wouldn't have ever stuck their nose into the Middle East like they have over the decades in the first place.

jag

well yes but we began bossing them around a long time ago, and it was mostly over oil. I'm not saying that for the last 2000 years Christains have been peaceful. Heck Christain Crusaders wiped out the egyptains and all the priests so that now days we have to decode hyroglyphics because there was nobody left alive to translate them.

I'm saying that today. in today's world this is how it is. In America I have never met a sinlge person who thinks women should be forced to cover their faces in public. an incredibly small minority think women should not be allowed to go to college and stuff, but they are old, and their beliefs wont carry over to the next generation. they will be dead and gone in a few years.

here is what it comes down to. America is one of the most conseravtive and religous countries in the world. Americans are the christains extremists. Not all of us. It's really about half. but look at Europe. they are mostly christain and they are very LIberal. There are 2 billion christains in the world, and the 300 million Americans are the most religous. Yet we still have an awful lot of freedom.

you wont find any gay rights activists protesting in the middle east.

[Superman4ever]

Uhhh dude, there is only one Qur'an. No Testaments, old or new.

Bingo!

I've got finals...

Peace!

[Spider-Bite]

Just turned 24! And I don't remember it. I'm a soon to be Med student, and am working on a PhD in cancer biology right now, and I took nearly every science class in HS, and I didn't learn about Evolution until I took the collage level Biology (bio 130), in my Senior year of HS, at U-Mich hear in Dearborn.

I'm 24 as well. I live in Wisconsin. I learned about it in 8th grade, then again in 12th grade gentics class. Most of what I learned about Evolution I learned on my own, because as a teenager I was obsessed with science. I do not think my school thouroughly educated our students about evolution at all. An hour a week for 3 months hardly covers billions of years of evolution.

[jaguarr]

you wont find any gay rights activists protesting in the middle east.


You sure about that? :) It's difficult for anyone who has not lived for an extended period of time in both cultures to say whether one is more tolerant than the other, IMHO.


jag

[Spider-Bite]

In America one of the most religous, conservative countries in the world there is no threat of civil war between the Christains and the Catholics and the Atheists. Heck I predict that within 50 years at least 20% of America's population will be atheist.

[InsaneMembrane]

Catholics are christians, I know that wasnt your point but it annoys me when people leave Catholics out of the christian grouping seeing how 50% of the christian population is Catholic.

[jaguarr]

In America one of the most religous, conservative countries in the world there is no threat of civil war between the Christains and the Catholics and the Atheists. Heck I predict that within 50 years at least 20% of America's population will be atheist.

No, but there's a threat of civil war between those who have money and those who don't not to mention racial tensions. What's your point?

jag

[Spider-Bite]

No, but there's a threat of civil war between those who have money and those who don't not to mention racial tensions. What's your point?

jag

There is no threat of civil war. The federal government is way too strong for that to happen as of right now. Hopefully the republican's deficits wont weaken it to the point where it is possible.

In America there is no desire for a civil war.

[jaguarr]

In America there is no desire for a civil war.

You really need to branch out and explore our country and the people that are in it more then, if you believe this. Stop making such sweeping generalizations, man. It's what's gotten you into trouble over and over in this thread.

jag

[Spider-Bite]

I don't really feel that I am in trouble. Look man the truth is that in America I don't have to worry about my fellow american's or even little children strapping bombs to their chests and blowing up busses and restaurants and stuff.

a rescent poll showed that 40% of americans don't even believe Hell exists. I have the right to vote and believe what ever I want to belive unlike most of the middle east.

Hell a WOMAN is going to win a nomination for President of the United States and about 50% of the country is going to vote for her.

[jaguarr]

I don't really feel that I am in trouble. Look man the truth is that in America I don't have to worry about my fellow american's or even little children strapping bombs to their chests and blowing up busses and restaurants and stuff.



The Oklahoma City bombing incident would suggest otherwise.

jag

[Spider-Bite]

The Oklahoma City bombing incident would suggest otherwise.

jag

no it wouldn't. I knew somebody would mention that. that is an isolated incident. When it happens in the middle east it doesn't even surprise people. It's just everyday life there. It happens every single day. Where as your example happend once oever 10 years ago.

[jaguarr]

It's still a valid incident. Besides, people in the Middle East don't have to deal with drive by shootings from gang bangers or pot farmers shooting hikers because they got too close to their crops, or any other of a number of senseless acts of violence that occur in the U.S. on a daily basis. You're hellbent on believing what you want to, so I'm certainly not going to stand in your way.

jag

[Spider-Bite]

It's still a valid incident. Besides, people in the Middle East don't have to deal with drive by shootings from gang bangers or pot farmers shooting hikers because they got too close to their crops, or any other of a number of senseless acts of violence that occur in the U.S. on a daily basis. You're hellbent on believing what you want to, so I'm certainly not going to stand in your way.

jag

I wasn't debating the crime rate. I was saying that in today's world Christains are more Liberal than Muslims. It's just the way it is today. Iraq's population is very small compared to ours. I think it's like 16 million, while ours is 300 million. I don't have to worry about drive by shootings, or pot farmers shooting me either, and I did live in some pretty bad ghettos as a kid. Gangbangers shoot other gangbangers.


fine here let's end the debate right now. Who has more atheists? America or the entire middle east? Who's got more atheists? Who's got more Buddhists? Who? Then let's throw Europe into it?

Where all the world's holy sites? Where is the Garden of Eden?

As far as I'm concerned they are the same religion anyways. One one side we got ultra conservatives, and on the other side we got conservatives and LIberals.

[Super_Ludacris]

Depends where you live in the Middle East really. UAE, Bahrain, Egypt is cool, Lebanon wasnt pretty good when I was out there really changed since the 80's, so it depends I guess.

Casually speaking

[jaguarr]

As far as I'm concerned they are the same religion anyways. One one side we got ultra conservatives, and on the other side we got conservatives and LIberals.


I really don't intend this to be a slam on you at all, because I think it's great that you're trying to understand things outside your immediate surroundings, but I don't think you know nearly as much about the Middle East and Islam as you'd like to think you do. You have a lot of preconceived notions and ideas about them that just aren't very accurate. Again, this is not meant to be a slam, even though you might take it that way.

jag

[cass]

Catholics are christians, I know that wasnt your point but it annoys me when people leave Catholics out of the christian grouping seeing how 50% of the christian population is Catholic.

I would've thought it'd be about 60-40 Catholic at least.

[Spider-Bite]

I really don't intend this to be a slam on you at all, because I think it's great that you're trying to understand things outside your immediate surroundings, but I don't think you know nearly as much about the Middle East and Islam as you'd like to think you do. You have a lot of preconceived notions and ideas about them that just aren't very accurate. Again, this is not meant to be a slam, even though you might take it that way.

jag

no I don't feel slammed at all. I think our debate would be much more heated if I was debating some guy claiming we need to kill all muslims or something like that, because as I have said and believed for a while

the reason the middle east is the way it is is because they are victims of oppression and poverty. they also have weak governements. there are many americans who would kill em all if they had the chance, and they are no different from terrorists.

the differecnes in the people aren't so much the religion they chose as it is their surrounding community they had while growing up. A muslim who grew up in a free nation with a good education and without poverty is likely to be Liberal. I have met two people from the middle east. One was an atheist and the other was a hindu. They both told me what things were like where they came from. They by no means speak for the entire middle east. But one thing is for sure. There are many problems over there.

[raybia]

the majority of Afghanistan citizens supported it.

So? What is your point? Afghanis don't represent all Muslims and are only a very small fraction. Plus its not about what Afghanis or Muslims support, its about what God commands.

Muslims worldwide don't turn to any particular Islamic country or particular religious leader for guidance, leadership, and instruction, so what Afghanistan does is not a reflection of the Qur'an, its a reflect of that particular society. A society that was constructed by the U.S. no less.

Islam doesn't have a preisthood, we are instucted by God to follow what he commands and Muslims are obligated to willfully follow those commandments.

Do you realize that many people in Religion are not only inadequately educated about the tenets of their religion and scripture but are also inadequately educated?

Do you realize that centuries of culturalism and socialization shape the way people profess their religious beliefs? That is why a Christian in the U.S. and one in South Korea can have radical differences to the extend that they are fellow Christians in name only.

Do you also realize that hypocrisy exists in all Religions? Do you also realize that hypocrisy also extends outside of religion as well?

Also most Afghanis are Economically and socially deprived and uneducated. Survival is more important for them at this point than having the correct understanding of the Quran.


According...to the QURAN anybody who believes in false Gods or prophets or blasphemes shall be put to death.

PROVE IT RIGHT NOW! Don't make this claim and not back it up.




My whole point is that today christains, not christianity, are socially more advanced and more politically correct and Liberal than most muslims, not Islam.

I understand your point, I just don't think you have done an adequate job proving it. Please backup your claim. Another sweeping indictment of Muslims!:rolleyes:

As you attempt to do this please remember that Muslims are not restricted to the Middle East but we are on every country on Earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

[jaguarr]

no I don't feel slammed at all. I think our debate would be much more heated if I was debating some guy claiming we need to kill all muslims or something like that, because as I have said and believed for a while

the reason the middle east is the way it is is because they are victims of oppression and poverty. they also have weak governements. there are many americans who would kill em all if they had the chance, and they are no different from terrorists.

the differecnes in the people aren't so much the religion they chose as it is their surrounding community they had while growing up. A muslim who grew up in a free nation with a good education and without poverty is likely to be Liberal. I have met two people from the middle east. One was an atheist and the other was a hindu. They both told me what things were like where they came from. They by no means speak for the entire middle east. But one thing is for sure. There are many problems over there.

All I'm suggesting is that you might consider learning more about the perspectives of the people that live over there or know a great deal more about the nuances of the variances in cultures in the Middle East before forumulating a concrete opinion. The fact is that many of us in the U.S. have very limited experience when it comes to other cultures and religions. In fact, many of us have limited experience when it comes to other regions within our own country. We can't possibly have a complete picture of things over there. The same would hold true for other country's views of the U.S.

jag

[The Overlord]

no I don't feel slammed at all. I think our debate would be much more heated if I was debating some guy claiming we need to kill all muslims or something like that, because as I have said and believed for a while

the reason the middle east is the way it is is because they are victims of oppression and poverty. they also have weak governements. there are many americans who would kill em all if they had the chance, and they are no different from terrorists.

the differecnes in the people aren't so much the religion they chose as it is their surrounding community they had while growing up. A muslim who grew up in a free nation with a good education and without poverty is likely to be Liberal. I have met two people from the middle east. One was an atheist and the other was a hindu. They both told me what things were like where they came from. They by no means speak for the entire middle east. But one thing is for sure. There are many problems over there.

There is poverty and opression in Latin America and they haven't become reactionaries over there.

[raybia]

All I'm suggesting is that you might consider learning more about the perspectives of the people that live over there or know a great deal more about the nuances of the variances in cultures in the Middle East before forumulating a concrete opinion. The fact is that many of us in the U.S. have very limited experience when it comes to other cultures and religions. In fact, many of us have limited experience when it comes to other regions within our own country. We can't possibly have a complete picture of things over there. The same would hold true for other country's views of the U.S.

jag


Agreed!

[raybia]

I really don't intend this to be a slam on you at all, because I think it's great that you're trying to understand things outside your immediate surroundings, but I don't think you know nearly as much about the Middle East and Islam as you'd like to think you do. You have a lot of preconceived notions and ideas about them that just aren't very accurate. Again, this is not meant to be a slam, even though you might take it that way.

jag


Good comments!

[jaguarr]

Agreed!

*checks calendar* Ahhh, I see it's your day to agree with me! :)

jag

[raybia]

Really? I don't see that at all. I see just as many holier-than-thou A-Holes on the Christian side as I do on the Islamic side running their mouths off and saying things that go against the very grain of what they're supposed to believe in. Extremists on both sides have made things much worse than they really should be and neither has any more space to point fingers than the other. They both share responsibility there. The key word in all of that is "extremists", though, who don't really represent the true core of those religions. I can't help but think you may be basing much of your perspective off of what you might know about Islamic extremists, rather than your average, everyday Muslim.

jag


Excellent! You are on a roll! I agree with you.










(Today that is;) )

[Assassin]

the majority of Afghanistan citizens supported it.

According to the Old Testament and the QURAN anybody who believes in false Gods or prophets or blasphemes shall be put to death. In Iraq the people want a constitution that says no law shall contradict Islamic law.

Jesus said accept and tolerate diverse cultures and lifestyles. But our religous right wing church goers still support a constitutional ammendmant to ban gay marraige. Many very rescently in American's history suppported throwing gays in prison. Texas was doing this as rescent as two years ago.
In the middle east? Most gays would be executed.

I did not say Christianity is a better religion than Islam. The religions are what the followers make it, thus the whole problem with religion. people twist and turn it to justify whatever they want to do. which is why almost every religion on earth only hurts our progress.

My whole point is that today christains, not christianity, are socially more advanced and more politically correct and Liberal than most muslims, not Islam.

I kinda Agree, but being born in America and having both parents from Iraq, you hear both sides of the story, I'm Chaldean, also known as Neo-babylonian, which is a small Tribe of ppl who are Catholic in Iraq. My parents were both born in Baghdad since their fathers were businessmen, and not in a small village with other chaldeans. They grew up with Jews, and muslums living next door, and they all got along. My dad was born on Dec 23, the original belif date of Christ, which in tradition he would have gotten a holy name (or Biblical) but his parents didnt give him one because they feared that he would be picked on in school. he says yes, the muslum kids would pic on the non muslum but thats only school bullys and such, but the everyday lives it was diffrent. My mom was there longer because my dad came here when he was 25 and he's 10 years older than my mom (they met and got married here) she remembers when all the jews were given a few days an were kicked out of their homes and out of the country when the Baath party was growing, (saddam was only vice president at the time) but she remembers that every one in the neighborhood was sad to see them leave, even other muslums, because they were some of the friendlyest ppl.

but every things changed since the 70's and **** happens.

also, for every one who thinks that Iraqis are killing themselfs, you;re wrong, the suicide bombers are not from iraq, they came in from syria and Iran when saddam was removed.

[InsaneMembrane]

I would've thought it'd be about 60-40 Catholic at least.

umm 1.1 billion catholics, 2.2 billion christians, so no.

[Kritish]

First of all I agree with you to certain point. Im a or was a muslim who critsize muslims and islam today, i dont post and wate my time as much as other people but i do say what true about middle east right now.

The only reason people use christianity or Jewdisim is because they're using one religion to make a point. Like someone said they are all the same/have the same roots, so if someone is bashing christianity they are in away bashing the other religions too.

I have never seen anit hindu buddist post. Those religions are probably only peaceful ones as far as i know.

Hindu's are hardly peaceful, have you heard of the untouchable clan that is raped, tortured and etc. If not look it up on wikipedia.

As for me, I hate all religious, I give equal opportunity to everyone.:)

[Spider-Bite]

I am really shocked at the level of stupidity being presented here. yeah all muslims are totally liberal and accepting of diverse cultures and lifestyles. yup. they could care less if a women learns to read, or if a person is gay, or an atheist or anything non muslim.

they would never mix politics with religion. never. they practically don't even believe in God.

How they got the way they are does not chang ethe fact that right now TODAY they are ultra conservative. you can pretend not to belive this if you want to, but that's what your doing. pretending. I'm not saying it has always been this way, and I'm not saying it always will. I'm saying that's how it is right now.

[jaguarr]

How they got the way they are does not chang ethe fact that right now TODAY they are ultra conservative. you can pretend not to belive this if you want to, but that's what your doing. pretending. I'm not saying it has always been this way, and I'm not saying it always will. I'm saying that's how it is right now.

And we've been saying that that is a sweeping generalization that doesn't apply to ALL Muslims, man. They're just as diverse as we are here in the U.S. The Muslims who have posted in this thread have attested to that.

jag

[Spider-Bite]

And we've been saying that that is a sweeping generalization that doesn't apply to ALL Muslims, man. They're just as diverse as we are here in the U.S. The Muslims who have posted in this thread have attested to that.

jag

I said the same thing. I said on overall average christains are not as conservative as muslims. I didn't say all Muslims nor all Christains.

[The Overlord]

And we've been saying that that is a sweeping generalization that doesn't apply to ALL Muslims, man. They're just as diverse as we are here in the U.S. The Muslims who have posted in this thread have attested to that.

jag

Perhaps, but it would be hard argue that an ultra conservative society doesn't exist in the ME.

[jaguarr]

Perhaps, but it would be hard argue that an ultra conservative society doesn't exist in the ME.

Oh, it does exist. I'm not saying that it doesn't at all. But the U.S. is being run by ultra-conservatives, too, for that matter. I'm just saying there's more to it than just the ultra-conservatives in ME society.

jag

[raybia]

And we've been saying that that is a sweeping generalization that doesn't apply to ALL Muslims, man. They're just as diverse as we are here in the U.S. The Muslims who have posted in this thread have attested to that.

jag

Yup!


(Man, your game is really on today!:up: )

[Spider-Bite]

Oh, it does exist. I'm not saying that it doesn't at all. But the U.S. is being run by ultra-conservatives, too, for that matter. I'm just saying there's more to it than just the ultra-conservatives in ME society.

jag

The US is one of the most conservative countries in the world. Our population is 300 million. There are two billion christains in the world, and most non US christains think the United States is too consrvative and too war like and too religous.

[Super_Ludacris]

I said the same thing. I said on overall average christains are not as conservative as muslims. I didn't say all Muslims nor all Christains.

Your statements are pretty genreal though. And even if they were true if you met muslims you would probably have a different perspective

[jaguarr]

The US is one of the most conservative countries in the world. Our population is 300 million. There are two billion christains in the world, and most non US christains think the United States is too consrvative and too war like and too religous.

I tend to agree with those that think the U.S. is too conservative, war-like and overly religious, to be honest with you. Our government and society have fixated on the wrong things for awhile, now. :down

jag

[Spider-Bite]

Your statements are pretty genreal though. And even if they were true if you met muslims you would probably have a different perspective

If I met one, I would not just assume that he or she hates all non Muslims and things like that.

[Spider-Bite]

I tend to agree with those that think the U.S. is too conservative, war-like and overly religious, to be honest with you. Our government and society have fixated on the wrong things for awhile, now. :down

jag

yes our country has. we got much bigger problems than the ones we have been worrying about.

[The Overlord]

Oh, it does exist. I'm not saying that it doesn't at all. But the U.S. is being run by ultra-conservatives, too, for that matter. I'm just saying there's more to it than just the ultra-conservatives in ME society.

jag

The US is of the most conservative of Western nations, but terms of third world countries it might as well be Holland.

[Danger Mouse]

And we've been saying that that is a sweeping generalization that doesn't apply to ALL Muslims, man. They're just as diverse as we are here in the U.S. The Muslims who have posted in this thread have attested to that.

jag
I have? :confused:

[jaguarr]

I have? :confused:

Yes. You probably don't remember because you weren't here at the time. :confused:

jag

[Danger Mouse]

Yes. You probably don't remember because you weren't here at the time. :confused:

jag
I wasn't? :confused:

[jaguarr]

I wasn't? :confused:

I accept your apology. :up:

jag

[Danger Mouse]

I accept your apology. :up:

jag
Thank you. I am so blessed and humbled today.

:confused:

[jaguarr]

Thank you. I am so blessed and humbled today.

:confused:


You so lucky! :)

jag

[Spider-Bite]

So what does everybody think of Republicans? man do they suck or what?

[Danger Mouse]

So what does everybody think of Republicans? man do they suck or what?
Lollipops?

[Wilhelm-Scream]

Haha, a Jehovah's Witness just had the misfortune of calling me tonight to "share the good news".
I politely ripped her beliefs apart just by calmly asking questions that she couldn't answer and she got frustrated and GAVE UP and said good night.

LMAO. Nice proselytizing efforts there JW's. hahaha

[Darth Elektra]

Whats the questions you ask them?

[Danger Mouse]

Whats the questions you ask them?
Read his posts in this thread and other similarly themed threads.