Green Lantern question...

[Chris Wallace]

Is it possible for the ring to make Kryptonite? Not just a green rock, but actual Kryptonite?

[The Question]

No. The ring can't simulate substances. Only shapes.

[Chris Wallace]

That answers that.

[wiegeabo]

Although, can't the ring mimic different forms of energy. If so, it could duplicate the radiation emitted by Kryptonite.

[Red]

Yeah I'm with wieg, I thought the the rings could produce Kryptonite radiation, like energy beams.

[Silverstein]

How complicated can it get? Because if you can make shapes then technically you could make parts to build something like a hyper death cannon or something.

Like the parts to a pistol and the bullet, altogether, he could make a lantern-fueled handgun.

[TheCorpulent1]

The Lantern has to understand the thing they're creating to some extent. I think the rings will handle really technical details, but if the Lantern has no idea what Kryptonite's properties or physical composition are, I doubt he'd be able to make one. If the Lantern understands what kind of radiation the Kryptonite emits, though, I agree with wieg, they could probably just make a rock shape and have it emit that same form of radiation. Not quite Kryptonite, but close enough to get the job done.

[TheFalcon]

I think the ring only can make shapes and is only limited by it's users so it can build anything. I don't think it has to replicate all the small parts of a "hyper death cannon". The GL could make it look like anything he wanted as long as he "imagined" it having the same effect.

I remember Kyle mentioning in Winicks run that John Stewart always made green constructions with every small detail inside because he was an architect and basically built it from the ground up in his mind. Kyles on the other hand where "empty" inside, but they still worked fine.

[That-Guy]

I think this is kind of a gray area. Because at the beginning of Emerald Twilight, Hal resurrects Coast City to the point where he can actually have conversations with dead people. Now, this may have just been a creation of his own delusions given his psychotic state at the time... or perhaps these were lifelike constructs that were created by the Parallax demon... but at the beginning of the arc, it states simply that the GL ring can do anything if the user wanted it badly enough. If that is true, then it wouldn't matter if the user actually knew the type of radiation kryptonite emits or not. I doubt Hal actually knew how to bring souls back from the great beyond... he just did it.

Did Lex Luthor ever get ahold of a GL ring? Because that would surely be interesting.

[kiuju2k]

Hasn't kyle made kryptonite before in an older jla book? Superman went rogue for a bit? Damn who was that.

[Red]

Hasn't kyle made kryptonite before in an older jla book? Superman went rogue for a bit? Damn who was that.

I pretty sure a Lantern has used Kryptonite from a ring before, was it Kyle or Hal?

[kiuju2k]

It was kyle... i have the book somewhere I remember reading it and being surprised that him of all lanterns made kryptonite. I know he did... why am I doubting myself?

[Elijya]

In agreement with what's been said so far: the ring can make shapes that are simple, and complex if the user understands the mechanism he wishes to create. It has repeatedly been shown doing things beyond the simple creation of physical objects, though. For one thing, it obviously generates light. It has also emmited other things. The blind Green Lantern (or should I say the F-Sharp Bell) from the world of darkness used it to create soundwaves. The ring can analyze, communicate, and translate. I'm certain it's within its abilities to emit different frequencies which would mean different frequencies of radiation. A user with the proper knowledge could emit kryptonite radiation

[Silverstein]

Was it ever explained why the light is only green and not in color?

[Elijya]

kind of. Green is the color of willpower, which is what powers the rings

you should read Green Lantern: Rebirth

[Chris Wallace]

I thought the answer would be simpler than this.

[GL1]

The Ring can do anything. Any limits are the result of the users lack of willpower or lack of imagination. Not only can a user who understands kryptonite radiation recreate those waves, not only can a lantern who knows the molecular makeup of kryptonite recreate the mineral, but anyone with a ring who WANTS Kryptonite bad enough can spontaneously make it appear. I'm sure Lex Luthor could do it... other than that he actually understands how kryptonite works...

[The Question]

I'm pretty sure that's not how the ring works. I doubt it can literally do anything.

[Lackey]

I think the GL's have been depowered since Hal has come back and the GL Corps has reformed. When it was Kyle by himself, he was quite powerful and capable of feats GLs now wouldn't be able to do.

[Elijya]

I'm pretty sure that's not how the ring works. I doubt it can literally do anything.
Correct, it's got tons of limitations. For one, it can't produce any color except green.

[Odin's Lapdog]

if it has created one rock of any kind before in it's past, then it could also create kyptonite. Again a little know how may be needed but still, a steel bar with varying chemical weighting of the composition is a highly complex thing, not everyone has the intimate detail in constructing it.

what i think actually happens is that the ring takes thoughts from your memory and makes a construct that looks like steel, act and feels like steel but isn't actually steel but the believer believes it to be what he asked for.

hence someone who knows what and how kyptonite should work should in theory be able to create it (especially since all rocks and living things emit radiation of one kind or another so the radiation factor should be a constant whether it's capable of producing specific types or not at all and in this case it seems that it can).

i'm not sure how it works though but isn't the effectiveness of the ring also require the recipitent to also believe. say superman wouldn't be affected by the ring if he truelly believes it's not kryptonite (i.e. it becomes a battles of wills)


there's a lot i don't get about the rings, like how more rings mean more power when it's based on willpower unless it gives the impression of bearing more power to the user hence actually increasing their will used.

[The Question]

If it's not actually Kryptonite, then it's not going to hurt Superman (or anyone, for that matter) the way Kryptonite would, weather they think it's Kryptonite or not.

[ToddIsDead]

In agreement with what's been said so far: the ring can make shapes that are simple, and complex if the user understands the mechanism he wishes to create. It has repeatedly been shown doing things beyond the simple creation of physical objects, though. For one thing, it obviously generates light. It has also emmited other things. The blind Green Lantern (or should I say the F-Sharp Bell) from the world of darkness used it to create soundwaves. The ring can analyze, communicate, and translate. I'm certain it's within its abilities to emit different frequencies which would mean different frequencies of radiation. A user with the proper knowledge could emit kryptonite radiation
I really liked that story. Moore rocks.

[Spectre722]

its possible that somebody with enough knowledge of molecular composition and with enough finite control over the ring could make subatomic hard-light replications of the electron and proton formations.

[The Question]

No, they couldn't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but photons aren't smaller than atoms. Nor do they contain any of the materials that make up atoms.

[Spectre722]

protons, not photons. electons and protons are the subatomic particles that make up atoms.

[The Question]

I know. And photons are the particals that make up light. I highly doubt a photon is smaller than an atom, or that it has any of the properties of subatomic particles.

[wiegeabo]

Photons aren't really particles, they're waves. Except when they're particles, which happens when they're not acting like waves.

:confused:

[TheCorpulent1]

I think the GL's have been depowered since Hal has come back and the GL Corps has reformed. When it was Kyle by himself, he was quite powerful and capable of feats GLs now wouldn't be able to do.
I've gotten that feeling, too.
Correct, it's got tons of limitations. For one, it can't produce any color except green.
Not so. Kyle's made constructs and other things of various colors. He subconsciously created other heroes in full color when he was slowly absorbing the ambient energy Parallax had left behind after reigniting the sun--which is the same energy the rings run on--and pretty much all of the Lanterns create their costumes with the rings, and those usually include green, black, and white.

[The Question]

Photons aren't really particles, they're waves. Except when they're particles, which happens when they're not acting like waves.

:confused:


Light is a wave. And it's made up of particles. Think of it like an ocean wave. Water is made up of countless molocules. Countless tiny little particles that we can't see. But, the come together, and they make water. And water makes waves.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm pretty sure wieg is right. Quantum mechanics dictates that light is anomalous and a single photon can (and does) act as both a particle and a wave.

[The Question]

I always thought that a photon was a particle, but all together as light, they act as a wave.

[batnkevlar]

Well, they have particle properties, such as in this one experiment where they fire a beam at this gold piece and it scatter's through it...

[TheCorpulent1]

Light behaves like a particle and a wave, even at its most basic quantifiable unit, as far as I recall. Granted, I'm no expert in quantum theory.

[wiegeabo]

A single photon acts as both a wave and particle. It's one of the mysteries of quantum mechanics we haven' figured out.

[Anubis]

I can't believe you guys were actually paying attention in science class. I was too busy begging the smart kids to let me copy off them during tests.

[BrianWilly]

I'm pretty sure that the ring can make Kryptonite if the GL concentrated his will enough.

That's the most basic definition and purpose of the power ring: it can do anything you want it to do. If it doesn't, then it's a failure on the part of the person wielding the ring, not the ring itself. Every single Earth-based Lantern has been able to get the ring to do things besides just make constructs, including teleportation and matter manipulation. Kyle and John have used it to teleport. Kyle has claimed that he could split atoms with the ring if he needed to. Hal Jordan has used it before to change people's memories and conduct mindwipes.

The ring can create green fire, or green ice, because the Lantern in question understands what fire is and what ice is; fire is hot, ice is cold. Fire burns, ice freezes. The will of the wielder gives directions to the ring which takes care of technical details. I assume that the only reason no one makes Kryptonite all the time is because no one really understands what Kryptonite is. They know that it hurts Kryptonians and that it has radiation and...that's about it. Without any further clues, their willpower has to cover a lot of unknown elements, which presumably makes it harder. In an intense duress situation like, say, fighting Superman, you're probably not going to be able to do it.

[Lackey]

and a photon is nothing more than a packet of energy...it has no mass like an electron or photon does.

Conceivably, a GL could create a single light-constructed atom.

[TheCorpulent1]

I can't believe you guys were actually paying attention in science class. I was too busy begging the smart kids to let me copy off them during tests.
You are responsible for the downfall of the American education system. :(

[batnkevlar]

I'm pretty sure that the ring can make Kryptonite if the GL concentrated his will enough.

That's the most basic definition and purpose of the power ring: it can do anything you want it to do. If it doesn't, then it's a failure on the part of the person wielding the ring, not the ring itself. Every single Earth-based Lantern has been able to get the ring to do things besides just make constructs, including teleportation and matter manipulation. Kyle and John have used it to teleport. Kyle has claimed that he could split atoms with the ring if he needed to. Hal Jordan has used it before to change people's memories and conduct mindwipes.

The ring can create green fire, or green ice, because the Lantern in question understands what fire is and what ice is; fire is hot, ice is cold. Fire burns, ice freezes. The will of the wielder gives directions to the ring which takes care of technical details. I assume that the only reason no one makes Kryptonite all the time is because no one really understands what Kryptonite is. They know that it hurts Kryptonians and that it has radiation and...that's about it. Without any further clues, their willpower has to cover a lot of unknown elements, which presumably makes it harder. In an intense duress situation like, say, fighting Superman, you're probably not going to be able to do it.

Nice explanation, i was thinking along those lines, you summed it up well...

[Lackey]

During the Joker's Last Laugh thing, Kyle was infected and Batman told Superman something like they had to stop him before he turned everyone's blood to gasoline. Just thought I'd throw that in :confused:

[Antitang]

That's the most basic definition and purpose of the power ring: it can do anything you want it to do.

I am not too sure if I agree with that... that would mean that the ring is far more powerfull then superman or even darkseid.

[Anubis]

You are responsible for the downfall of the American education system. :(

Well of course I am. Now shut up and give me the answers nerd Before I shatter your pelvis!

[Varient]

Is it possible for the ring to make Kryptonite? Not just a green rock, but actual Kryptonite?
radiation not material.

No,.. I'm not sure why canon allows it to replicate energy but not matter.

[The Question]

I'm pretty sure that the ring can make Kryptonite if the GL concentrated his will enough.

That's the most basic definition and purpose of the power ring: it can do anything you want it to do. If it doesn't, then it's a failure on the part of the person wielding the ring, not the ring itself. Every single Earth-based Lantern has been able to get the ring to do things besides just make constructs, including teleportation and matter manipulation. Kyle and John have used it to teleport. Kyle has claimed that he could split atoms with the ring if he needed to. Hal Jordan has used it before to change people's memories and conduct mindwipes.

The ring can create green fire, or green ice, because the Lantern in question understands what fire is and what ice is; fire is hot, ice is cold. Fire burns, ice freezes. The will of the wielder gives directions to the ring which takes care of technical details. I assume that the only reason no one makes Kryptonite all the time is because no one really understands what Kryptonite is. They know that it hurts Kryptonians and that it has radiation and...that's about it. Without any further clues, their willpower has to cover a lot of unknown elements, which presumably makes it harder. In an intense duress situation like, say, fighting Superman, you're probably not going to be able to do it.



I've never thought that that's how the ring works. I always thought that it was alot more complex than "wanting it enough." If you wanted to make a construct, I thought that you had to visualize exactly what you wanted in the right amount of detail, and maintain that visualization. Otherwise, it would just come out a green blob. And I've never seen the ring able to synthasize actual elements.

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't think it's that simple. "Wanting something badly enough" only seems to work for strengthening constructs and pulling the occasional galaxy-saving move out of a GL's ass. I doubt a GL could just wish himself into a god or anything like that.

Alan Scott's Starheart, on the other hand, can do some weird stuff. I guess it's because of its magical nature. Even the Starheart seems to have limits, though.
I am not too sure if I agree with that... that would mean that the ring is far more powerfull then superman or even darkseid.
The ring's not called "the most powerful weapon in the universe" for nothing. In the hands of the right person, it can be incredibly powerful. It's so dependent on the wearer's mental state, however, that its power varies a lot. I could conceivably see a GL taking on Darkseid (especially the current version), but the fact that Darkseid is universally feared might prevent the Lantern from summoning enough willpower to fight him effectively.

[Antitang]

I don't think it's that simple. "Wanting something badly enough" only seems to work for strengthening constructs and pulling the occasional galaxy-saving move out of a GL's ass. I doubt a GL could just wish himself into a god or anything like that.

Alan Scott's Starheart, on the other hand, can do some weird stuff. I guess it's because of its magical nature. Even the Starheart seems to have limits, though.

The ring's not called "the most powerful weapon in the universe" for nothing. In the hands of the right person, it can be incredibly powerful. It's so dependent on the wearer's mental state, however, that its power varies a lot. I could conceivably see a GL taking on Darkseid (especially the current version), but the fact that Darkseid is universally feared might prevent the Lantern from summoning enough willpower to fight him effectively.

yeah I know its quite powerful I just meant that "anything" is far fetched just like you said about wishing himself to be a god. I still dont picture the GL Corps on the same level as Darkseid and Superman. Seems like any GL would run out of will power (if like you said he could even summon it in the first place) thus making him an ordinary man. but eh kinda turning into one of the horrible "Vs." threads.

[TheCorpulent1]

Darkseid I can understand, but Superman? I'd be surprised if pretty much any experienced GL couldn't hand Superman his ass on a silver platter.

[Lackey]

Darkseid I can understand, but Superman? I'd be surprised if pretty much any experienced GL couldn't hand Superman his ass on a silver platter.


it depends on the situation... the "faster than thought" thing might come into play.

[Destructo-Man]

I've always thought that basically, if you believe it, you can make it/do it. Laterns have always been told, or told others it all comes down to knowing that the ring can do whatever the hell you want it to do as long as you have to belief and willpower to back it up. That's why Hal was so good. He seemed to have a near religious belief in that ring, the Corps, and what they could do.

Imagine you're going about your day and bamf!, Ganthet appeared before you, gave you a ring and said "Do what you must!" You know damned well what they ring is capable of, having read about GL's for years. Your personal belief in the ring may be even more powerful than the Lanterns we've been reading about for years. You'd probably be able to do things most of those Lanterns wouldn't believe, based on the fact that you've seen THEM doing crazy nonsense for years.

Or not, I dunno.

[boywondernerdDC]

The Lantern has to understand the thing they're creating to some extent. I think the rings will handle really technical details, but if the Lantern has no idea what Kryptonite's properties or physical composition are, I doubt he'd be able to make one. If the Lantern understands what kind of radiation the Kryptonite emits, though, I agree with wieg, they could probably just make a rock shape and have it emit that same form of radiation. Not quite Kryptonite, but close enough to get the job done.

i agree


by the way i love the batman robin sig good issue

[TheCorpulent1]

Heh, funny that I just changed it.

[celldog]

I pretty sure a Lantern has used Kryptonite from a ring before, was it Kyle or Hal?


It was Hal....pre-crisis.

[BrianWilly]

I've never thought that that's how the ring works. I always thought that it was alot more complex than "wanting it enough." If you wanted to make a construct, I thought that you had to visualize exactly what you wanted in the right amount of detail, and maintain that visualization. Otherwise, it would just come out a green blob. And I've never seen the ring able to synthasize actual elements.Well obviously it's not as simple as "If I want it badly enough it'll happen." If you wanted a create a potion that will cure cancer, no amount of willpower is going to automatically make it if you don't know exactly how to cure cancer, or even what cancer actually is.

When Wonder Woman was dying from Neron's tomfoolery, Kyle went to her bedside and tried to make a machine that would cure her. But without knowing why she was dying and how precisely to stop that, he didn't know where to focus all that power.

But we see the ring synthesize certain elements all the time. For example, oxygen. How does the ring create breathable oxygen in space? How does it create fire-breathing dragons and sleeping gas and bug-spray? It's done all of those things and more, in the past. Certainly we can't assume that Guy Gardner knows the chemical properties of oxygen and bug-spray. There has to be some element of the power ring that takes care of the technicalities, or else no one would ever be able to make anything. There has to be certain properties that appear in these "green blobs" that the Lantern unconsciously generates or the ring automatically produces. In Rann-Thanagar War, Kilowog and Kyle terraformed an entire planet in under a day; no amount of green blobs is going to be able to do that without producing certain elements.

[TheCorpulent1]

The rings wouldn't necessarily have to generate oxygen themselves to keep the Lanterns alive in space. They could extract the oxygen from the carbon dioxide the GL exhales and create a self-replenishing air supply like that. It'd run out eventually, though.

[BrianWilly]

In that same vein, though, it's not like every GL in the universe is taught how to extract oxygen from carbon dioxide. If that's how it works, then it has to be an unconscious process that doesn't require much focus or even much knowledge from the ring-bearer. They think of it happening, and it happens.

[TheCorpulent1]

The rings have artificial intelligences that include protocols for keeping the wearer alive automatically. They'll create shields to protect the GL from lethal injury, feed them oxygen when their surroundings don't have any, etc. Kyle's didn't initially, but when the Corps came back it had an AI and talked to him like all the other rings, so presumably it got upgraded somehow and started working like the other GLs' rings.

[BrianWilly]

Right. And I think that goes along with what I said in my original post, that the ring is completely capable of doing these things. It is completely within the capacity of the ring to be the greatest weapon in the universe.

Anything that it doesn't do, therefore, is a "flaw" on the part of the wielder, not the ring. The ring is perfectly equipped to produce Kryptonite constructs, but the ring-bearer in question might not be. Kyle and Hal don't know enough about Kryptonite to be able to produce it; I mean, Kryptonite isn't exactly an easy element to produce, Lex Luthor must have been trying for years and he hasn't been able to do it.

But suppose, as a hypothesis, that there's an alien species somewhere out there that survives on Kryptonite, or something close enough to it. If one of them had a power ring, they would know more than enough to be able to produce Kryptonite constructs up and down the street. On the other hand, suppose that this supposed alien species doesn't have the substance "tin foil," or anything remotely resembling tin foil, within a bajillion light years of their planet. They wouldn't be able to use a power ring to create tin foil constructs. You might even bring them some tin foil and put it right in front of their, ah, bulbously skinny eyes, and it would still be too alien and complicated for them to produce.

Would you say then that the power ring can't produce tin foil? No, you'd say that the specific alien Green Lantern couldn't produce tin foil. I think that's the sort of logic we'd use in any circumstance regarding when a Green Lantern "couldn't" do something with his/her/its ring.

[The Question]

Well obviously it's not as simple as "If I want it badly enough it'll happen." If you wanted a create a potion that will cure cancer, no amount of willpower is going to automatically make it if you don't know exactly how to cure cancer, or even what cancer actually is.

When Wonder Woman was dying from Neron's tomfoolery, Kyle went to her bedside and tried to make a machine that would cure her. But without knowing why she was dying and how precisely to stop that, he didn't know where to focus all that power.

But we see the ring synthesize certain elements all the time. For example, oxygen. How does the ring create breathable oxygen in space? How does it create fire-breathing dragons and sleeping gas and bug-spray? It's done all of those things and more, in the past. Certainly we can't assume that Guy Gardner knows the chemical properties of oxygen and bug-spray. There has to be some element of the power ring that takes care of the technicalities, or else no one would ever be able to make anything. There has to be certain properties that appear in these "green blobs" that the Lantern unconsciously generates or the ring automatically produces. In Rann-Thanagar War, Kilowog and Kyle terraformed an entire planet in under a day; no amount of green blobs is going to be able to do that without producing certain elements.


Well, for the fire and bug spray:


1) It's not complicated to make fire. Fire isn't an element. You just have to heat something up enough and it'll ignite.

2) It may not have been bug spray, but simply a construct that looked like bug spray, and because it was probably cloging up the bug's internal workings, had the same effect.


You have a point about the terraforming them. But then, what exactly was on that planet to begin with? If it's got an atmosphere with alot of carbon dioxide, then all you would need to make the air breathable would be to plant alot of plants. With their rings, I'd think they could do that in a day.

[The Question]

Right. And I think that goes along with what I said in my original post, that the ring is completely capable of doing these things. It is completely within the capacity of the ring to be the greatest weapon in the universe.

Anything that it doesn't do, therefore, is a "flaw" on the part of the wielder, not the ring. The ring is perfectly equipped to produce Kryptonite constructs, but the ring-bearer in question might not be.

That's not necessairily true. That's just you assuming. It could be that the ring is programed to do the oxygen then, but isn't prograned for anything else. I mean, extracting an element that's already present in your body, while highly complex, is far less complex than making an element apear out of thin air. And, it's quite possible that all a GL goes is gather up an air supply from his or her homeworld large enough to sustain them until they reach their destination. I mean, the ring can store all that energy, I would assume it could store air.

But suppose, as a hypothesis, that there's an alien species somewhere out there that survives on Kryptonite, or something close enough to it. If one of them had a power ring, they would know more than enough to be able to produce Kryptonite constructs up and down the street.

Again, not necessairily. They may simply carry Kryptonite with them when they travel, or use their rings to survive on the Kryptonite present in their bodies.

On the other hand, suppose that this supposed alien species doesn't have the substance "tin foil," or anything remotely resembling tin foil, within a bajillion light years of their planet. They wouldn't be able to use a power ring to create tin foil constructs. You might even bring them some tin foil and put it right in front of their, ah, bulbously skinny eyes, and it would still be too alien and complicated for them to produce.

Would you say then that the power ring can't produce tin foil? No, you'd say that the specific alien Green Lantern couldn't produce tin foil. I think that's the sort of logic we'd use in any circumstance regarding when a Green Lantern "couldn't" do something with his/her/its ring.

However, it's also possible that the ring simply can't produce actual tin foil.

[TheCorpulent1]

Can the rings rearrange matter? Because extracting oxygen from other molecules isn't really much more complicated than reconfiguring existing atoms into Kryptonite's atomic structure, if you think about it. It's a similar process, and with enough atoms you can make literally anything.

[The Question]

Yeah. But the process of extracting oxygen may not work on a subatomic level.

[BrianWilly]

1) It's not complicated to make fire. Fire isn't an element. You just have to heat something up enough and it'll ignite.But the ring doesn't produce fire through ignition, it simply creates green, construct fire that behaves completely like fire does. When it looks like fire, feels like fire, and acts like fire, at what point do we stop saying, "That's not real fire"?

2) It may not have been bug spray, but simply a construct that looked like bug spray, and because it was probably cloging up the bug's internal workings, had the same effect.What about the sleeping gas, then? Kyle was able to use construct sleeping gas on Alan Scott, one time.

You have a point about the terraforming them. But then, what exactly was on that planet to begin with? If it's got an atmosphere with alot of carbon dioxide, then all you would need to make the air breathable would be to plant alot of plants. With their rings, I'd think they could do that in a day.The Planet in question was Thanagar, which had been sent through its own sun. I don't think it ended up with any atmosphere at all.

That's not necessairily true. That's just you assuming. It could be that the ring is programed to do the oxygen then, but isn't prograned for anything else. I mean, extracting an element that's already present in your body, while highly complex, is far less complex than making an element apear out of thin air. And, it's quite possible that all a GL goes is gather up an air supply from his or her homeworld large enough to sustain them until they reach their destination. I mean, the ring can store all that energy, I would assume it could store air.Just so you know, you're answering my "assumption" with another assumption:). As far as I'm aware, the only energy that the ring stores is the energy of the central power battery. That's the fact that we know. We don't know if it actually stores oxygen in the ring itself...that's the assumption. Therefore, going by what we know, the ring either has to make oxygen from its own energy, or synthesize it from another source somehow...which, given that space is a vaccuum with no other source, is the far less likely of the two options.

Incidentally, in Rann/Thanagar War Kyle extracts oxygen for the planet from ash.

Again, not necessairily. They may simply carry Kryptonite with them when they travel, or use their rings to survive on the Kryptonite present in their bodies.That's not what I meant. I mean that this theoretical alien species would simply be so familiar with Kryptonite that they could just create it.

However, it's also possible that the ring simply can't produce actual tin foil.Why not? It produces a lot of more complicated things. Again, going by the earlier model, if it looks like tin foil and acts like tin foil and feels like tin foil and, heck, tastes like tin foil...then how is it different from actual tin foil other than the fact that it's an energy construct? Of course it's not going to be silvery or permanent (even though Ganthet said that you could produce permanent constructs, if you worked at it enough...and the original Hal Jordan memorial was actually a construct made by Kyle), but it's going to have all the properties of tin foil.

For the purposes of this conversation, I had assumed that we were talking about constructs anyway. The question isn't "Can the ring produce an actual Kryptonite?" (even though I think that it can, given the right sources), the question is "Can the ring produce a construct that behaves exactly like Kryptonite?"

Yeah. But the process of extracting oxygen may not work on a subatomic level.No, we know that the ring can manipulate matter at the subatomic level. The power ring can split atoms. I'm not science guy, but I imagine that's relatively close to what we're talking about. And again, the ring has been shown to do a lot more than just make energy constructs, including teleportation and mindwipes. Honestly, "big green blobs" is and always has been merely the tip of the iceberg.

[The Question]

But the ring doesn't produce fire through ignition, it simply creates green, construct fire that behaves completely like fire does. When it looks like fire, feels like fire, and acts like fire, at what point do we stop saying, "That's not real fire"?

If it's green, then it doesn't look like fire. It's construct fire. Most of a GL's more simple constructs behaive like the object they're in the shape of. But they're not made of the same stuff as that object.

What about the sleeping gas, then? Kyle was able to use construct sleeping gas on Alan Scott, one time.

Didn't know about that.

The Planet in question was Thanagar, which had been sent through its own sun. I don't think it ended up with any atmosphere at all.

Hmm. Fair point.

Just so you know, you're answering my "assumption" with another assumption:). As far as I'm aware, the only energy that the ring stores is the energy of the central power battery. That's the fact that we know. We don't know if it actually stores oxygen in the ring itself...that's the assumption. Therefore, going by what we know, the ring either has to make oxygen from its own energy, or synthesize it from another source somehow...which, given that space is a vaccuum with no other source, is the far less likely of the two options.

Or, they coukd store ogyxen with then when they're in space. We don't know it does, but that's no reason to rule out the possibility.

Incidentally, in Rann/Thanagar War Kyle extracts oxygen for the planet from ash.

Good point. But, oxygen molocules would be present in the ash. While that's still a very complicated process, it's not the same as creating Oxygen out of nothing.

That's not what I meant. I mean that this theoretical alien species would simply be so familiar with Kryptonite that they could just create it.

And I'm saying I don't think that the rings would be capable of that.

Why not? It produces a lot of more complicated things. Again, going by the earlier model, if it looks like tin foil and acts like tin foil and feels like tin foil and, heck, tastes like tin foil...then how is it different from actual tin foil other than the fact that it's an energy construct? Of course it's not going to be silvery or permanent (even though Ganthet said that you could produce permanent constructs, if you worked at it enough...and the original Hal Jordan memorial was actually a construct made by Kyle), but it's going to have all the properties of tin foil.

But it isn't tin foil. It's an energy construct that behaives like tin foil. And how do you know that the constructs taste anything like the objects they're supposed to be? I don't think it's ever been brought up.

For the purposes of this conversation, I had assumed that we were talking about constructs anyway. The question isn't "Can the ring produce an actual Kryptonite?" (even though I think that it can, given the right sources), the question is "Can the ring produce a construct that behaves exactly like Kryptonite?"

I doubt it. Since it's not made of the same material, it would just be a rock.

No, we know that the ring can manipulate matter at the subatomic level. The power ring can split atoms. I'm not science guy, but I imagine that's relatively close to what we're talking about.

No, it's not. Splitting an atome and rearanging the properties of an atom are two very different things. To split an atom, you need to fire a sub atomic particle beam that bombarts the atom, causing it to split. That's not the same as changing oxygen into Kryptonite.

And again, the ring has been shown to do a lot more than just make energy constructs, including teleportation and mindwipes. Honestly, "big green blobs" is and always has been merely the tip of the iceberg.

Are the windipes in continuity? Because, the only in continuity instance I can recall is when Green Lantern manipulated a knowlege enhancing device to wipe people's minds.

[BrianWilly]

Or, they coukd store ogyxen with then when they're in space. We don't know it does, but that's no reason to rule out the possibility.By your own words, that's just you assuming things. You can't counter a negative with another negative and call it evidence. By that same exact logic, I could claim that we don't know that it doesn't store oxygen, so there's no reason to rule that out. Ultimately it shows nothing one way or the other.

Good point. But, oxygen molocules would be present in the ash. While that's still a very complicated process, it's not the same as creating Oxygen out of nothing.It would be construct oxygen, not oxygen out of nothing. That was my whole point from the beginning, that it would be constructed oxygen which behaves exactly like oxygen does, which means that you could breathe it.

And I'm saying I don't think that the rings would be capable of that.Why don't you? What evidence are you offering, other than "I don't think that's the way it works"? I've given numerous examples of the ring producing effects beyond simply being big green solid blobs, so long as the Lantern in question knew enough about what they were doing.

But it isn't tin foil. It's an energy construct that behaives like tin foil. And how do you know that the constructs taste anything like the objects they're supposed to be? I don't think it's ever been brought up.Of course it's not actually tin foil. But if it behaves exactly like tin foil does, what's the practical difference? You can still use it to wrap up your food.

Similarly, if you create an energy construct that behaves exactly like Kryptonite, then what's the practical difference? Of course it's not actually Kryptonite, but if it behaves exactly like Kryptonite does then it's still going to make Superman puke all over the floor nonetheless.

And yes, the constructs do taste like the objects they're supposed to be. Cary Wren, Kyle's descendant in the future, made a construct apple that tasted like an apple. And various Lanterns have made constructs which were so detailed that they included the smell of the object.

No, it's not. Splitting an atome and rearanging the properties of an atom are two very different things. To split an atom, you need to fire a sub atomic particle beam that bombarts the atom, causing it to split. That's not the same as changing oxygen into Kryptonite.But the point remains that the rings can manipulate matter at the subatomic level.

Are the windipes in continuity? Because, the only in continuity instance I can recall is when Green Lantern manipulated a knowlege enhancing device to wipe people's minds.It is, as far as I know...
"Before he turned Major Disaster over to the police, Green Lantern's power ring scanned Disaster's mind to learn the frequencies which would cure those struck by Major Disaster's disaster energies. Green Lantern then erased the knowledge of the Flash's identity from Disaster's mind but in a bit of ironic revenge, he allowed Booker to remember the Hal Jordan identity."
http://www.glcorps.org/maj_disa.html

[The Question]

By your own words, that's just you assuming things. You can't counter a negative with another negative and call it evidence. By that same exact logic, I could claim that we don't know that it doesn't store oxygen, so there's no reason to rule that out. Ultimately it shows nothing one way or the other.

It would be construct oxygen, not oxygen out of nothing. That was my whole point from the beginning, that it would be constructed oxygen which behaves exactly like oxygen does, which means that you could breathe it.

That doesn't work. A construct rope working like a real rope is much different from a construct air molocule acting like an air molocule. It wouldn't have any of the same chemical properties, since it's not actually air.

Why don't you? What evidence are you offering, other than "I don't think that's the way it works"? I've given numerous examples of the ring producing effects beyond simply being big green solid blobs, so long as the Lantern in question knew enough about what they were doing.

The only thing that really supports what you're saying is the knock out gas.

Of course it's not actually tin foil. But if it behaves exactly like tin foil does, what's the practical difference? You can still use it to wrap up your food.

But it's not actually tin foilk. It has none of the chemical properties as tin foil. It may feel like tin foil and behave like tin foil, but it isn't tin foil.

Similarly, if you create an energy construct that behaves exactly like Kryptonite, then what's the practical difference? Of course it's not actually Kryptonite, but if it behaves exactly like Kryptonite does then it's still going to make Superman puke all over the floor nonetheless.

But that's different. A construct can simulate the functions of tin foil. The fact that Kryptonite is radioactive comes from it's chemical composition. Something that a construct would not be able to duplicate because it's not actually Kryptonite.

And yes, the constructs do taste like the objects they're supposed to be. Cary Wren, Kyle's descendant in the future, made a construct apple that tasted like an apple. And various Lanterns have made constructs which were so detailed that they included the smell of the object.

Okay. I didn't know that. The only instance I ever read of someone eating a construct was in the Busiek written Crime Syndicate/Justice League cross over, in which power ring ate construct popcorn and commented that it was completely flavorless.

But the point remains that the rings can manipulate matter at the subatomic level.

But it's not the same thing. Creation is a much more complicated process than distruction. Just because someone can destroy something at a certain level doesn't mean that they can create something at the same level.

It is, as far as I know...
"Before he turned Major Disaster over to the police, Green Lantern's power ring scanned Disaster's mind to learn the frequencies which would cure those struck by Major Disaster's disaster energies. Green Lantern then erased the knowledge of the Flash's identity from Disaster's mind but in a bit of ironic revenge, he allowed Booker to remember the Hal Jordan identity."
http://www.glcorps.org/maj_disa.html

Alright. I was fairly certain that alot of the ring's feats were wiped away post crisis, and the only post crisis thing I've seen of the ring mindwiping someone involved it manipukating a device that was already designed to alter mental functions.

[Lackey]

That doesn't work. A construct rope working like a real rope is much different from a construct air molocule acting like an air molocule. It wouldn't have any of the same chemical properties, since it's not actually air.

If the GL has enough knowledge of an oxygen molecule and it's chemical properties and structure, I don't see why not.


But it's not the same thing. Creation is a much more complicated process than distruction. Just because someone can destroy something at a certain level doesn't mean that they can create something at the same level.

If the ring can work at a subatomic level, then it is capable of transmutation of matter. It wouldn't need to create something out of thin air (out of nothing) it could transmute something into the desired form of matter.

[BrianWilly]

The only thing that really supports what you're saying is the knock out gas.One concrete example isn't enough? How many do you need, exactly?

What about terraforming Thanagar?

But that's different. A construct can simulate the functions of tin foil. The fact that Kryptonite is radioactive comes from it's chemical composition. Something that a construct would not be able to duplicate because it's not actually Kryptonite.Can I ask, why do you keep assuming that the ring can't duplicate chemical compositions? Has there been any evidence for this from the comics? 'Cause as far as I'm aware, anytime anyone describes the ring's capabilities in canon it's always "The ring is the most powerful weapon in the universe, it can do anything," and never "The ring is the most powerful weapon in the universe, it can do anything...except for this and this and this."

Again, what evidence are you offering, other than "I don't think that's the way it works"?

[BrianWilly]

Okay.

From Justice League Chronology (http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/jla/_chron/jlachron6.html)
Thinking him unstable, the JLA nearly kills Superman by synthesizing kryptonite with Green Lantern's ring.
-Superman: Man of Tomorrow #13 (Spr.99)

So there you go. In-canon evidence that the ring not only can synthesize Kryptonite, but that it has synthesized Kryptonite.

[The Question]

Alright. Fine. But, I must say that becaus ethe ring can split an atom does not mean it can transmute matter. They're two related yet still very different processes, transmuting matter being vastly more complex.

[Lackey]

Alright. Fine. But, I must say that becaus ethe ring can split an atom does not mean it can transmute matter. They're two related yet still very different processes, transmuting matter being vastly more complex.

it's adding more protons or taking away protons to/from the nucleus... that's all.

[The Question]

But it's different and much more complicated in aplication. The argeument is like saying "I can shoot someone in the head, so obviously I can preform brain surgury." Rearanging matter on a sub atomic level requires control and subtle precision. Otherwise, you won't get anything even remotely resembling what you want. Splitting an atom is firing a particle bean into an atom and watching it blow. Points and shoot. The only similarity between the two is the word "atom."

[Lackey]

Your analogy is completely off base

For one, you're making atom splitting sound much more simplistic than it actually is... it would require a great deal of control and precision also.

Secondly, when scientist discovered how to create nuclear fission and started experimenting with radioactive isotopes in the 1950's, they also discovered ways to transmute elements. The two processes are related.

[The Question]

Your analogy is completely off base

For one, you're making atom splitting sound much more simplistic than it actually is... it would require a great deal of control and precision also.

I'm not saying it is simplistic. I'm saying that altering matter is much more difficult.

Secondly, when scientist discovered how to create nuclear fission and started experimenting with radioactive isotopes in the 1950's, they also discovered ways to transmute elements. The two processes are related.

But they're not the same. Just because he could split an atom, does not mean he can transmute matter. Now, given that it's already been shown that he can, the point is moot. But I'm saying, that's not an arguement for saying he can transmute matter.

[Lackey]

I'm not saying it is simplistic. I'm saying that altering matter is much more difficult.

not really... in fact, altering matter is an integral part of radioactive decay and nuclear fission. In fact, I would say the opposite it true.

But they're not the same. Just because he could split an atom, does not mean he can transmute matter. Now, given that it's already been shown that he can, the point is moot. But I'm saying, that's not an arguement for saying he can transmute matter.

Given the history of "splitting an atom" in the real world... of course it is.

[PeteVenkman]

From what i've read, and if i recall correctly, the GL/ring is able to simulate the radiation given off by Kryptonite. This means that it wouldn't need to be in rock form, it could be Hal's giant fist, or one of Kyle's sketchings, as long as the ringbearer wants it to "be" Kryptonite. While it's not technically kryptonite, but its close enough give Supe's the same symptoms, and while being unable to kill superman, it can severely weaken him.

I could be wrong, but think i did read this somewhere.... rather than completely making it up in my head, lol.

[pifpaf]

explaination of the green lanter's power ring:All Green Lanterns wield a power ring that can generate a variety of effects and energy constructs, sustained purely by the ring wearer's strength of will. The greater the user's willpower, the more effective the ring. The limits of the power ring's abilities are not clearly defined and it has been referred to as "the most powerful weapon in the universe" on more than one occasion. Across the years, the ring has been shown capable of accomplishing anything within the imagination of the ring bearer.

Power rings allow the user to fly and to cover themselves and others with a protective force field, suitable for travelling through outer space. They can also generate beams and solid structures of energy that can be moved simply by thinking about doing so, enabling the user to create cages, transportation platforms, walls, and battering rams. The ring can also be used to search for energy signatures or particular objects. It can serve as a universal translator. The ring can manipulate sub-atomic particles (effectively producing new elements) and split atoms, but those powers are rarely used by Green Lanterns.

The rings of the Green Lantern Corps (GLC) appear to be semi-sentient computers, able to talk to and advise the user as to various courses of action.

Green Lantern Rings typically hold a limited charge. Alan Scott's ring and the Green Lantern Corps rings have time limits in that they must be recharged every 24 hours. Kyle Rayner's ring is limited by amount of energy it holds, but no set time limit; the energy is expended by Rayner's use of the ring, so the duration of each charge is determined by his actions.

The Green Lantern rings are often recharged by a portable power cell that looks like an old fashioned lantern that is colored green. The user typically points the ring into the lantern, and usually gives a Green Lantern oath as the password to recharge the ring.

Alan Scott's ring cannot directly affect objects made of wood, and Green Lantern Corps rings cannot directly affect objects colored yellow. Originally it was believed that the Guardians wanted the rings to have a weakness to prevent a Green Lantern from becoming all powerful, although recent events have revealed that the yellow "impurity" was in fact a yellow-energy being of pure fear, trapped in the Central Power Battery. Lanterns have typically found ways to get around these limitations by affecting objects indirectly. For example, if the Lantern is faced with a yellow gas approaching him, a fan can be created to blow it away since the fan only directly affects the normal air around it, not the gas. Kyle Rayner's ring can affect both wooden and yellow objects, but his mind has proven to be susceptible to forms of external control (such as hallucinogens, psychic attacks, and other phenomena that disrupt his thought processes). Nowadays, a holder of a Corps ring can overcome the yellow weakness by recognizing the fear behind it, and facing that fear (Green Lantern (4th series) #1, July, 2005).

In addition, the effectiveness of a wielder's power ring can be adversely affected by a weakening of resolve and will. For example during the Millennium affair, Hal Jordan fought a Manhunter who psychologically attacked him in the battle to make him doubt that the people he was protecting valued the principles he was fighting for. Jordan's resolve began to weaken and his ring lost effectiveness until he was nearly defeated. However, one of his charges then struck the Manhunter and declared that she did deeply value Jordan's principles as well. With this dramatic affirmation, Jordan's faith in his cause was restored and the ring instantly returned to full power to defeat the Manhunter.

Green Lantern Corps rings typically reserve a small portion of their power for a passive force field that "protects the wielder from mortal harm". In dire emergency, that energy reserve can be tapped, at the expense of said protection, until it too is exhausted. Kyle Rayner's reconfigured ring can "run low", but never completely loses its charge; however, it doesn't shield him from harm if he's caught off-guard.


A typical Green Lantern Corps power ring.The GLC rings do not necessarily have to be worn to be wielded in some functions. For instance, the Green Lantern, Ch'p, once faced a hostage situation where the villain demanded he take off his ring or the hostage would be harmed. Ch'p complied, but not before ordering the ring to fire a restraining beam on the villain seconds after being removed from physical contact (which was done, and the villain was captured). Rayner can will his ring to return to him if it is ever removed or lost. Although never explicitly mentioned, Hal Jordan and other Green Lanterns have also exhibited the ability to summon their rings at substantial distances. Jordan has even used sheer willpower to get ahold of his power ring and gain control of it when other people were wearing it. Precisely how this is accomplished is never made clear, though it might be that the ring's artificial intelligence recognizes the call of its rightful bearer and activates some preset protocol causing it to return to the Green Lantern who owns it. (The flight rings of the Legion of Super-Heroes work in a similar fashion, being attuned specifically to their wearer.)

GLC rings can also be used to emit simulated radiation from Green Kryptonite. This radiation is apparently just as powerful and painful to Superman and other Kryptonians as the genuine rays, but the ring wielder needs to concentrate to maintain this effect. An alien imposter who stole Jordan's ring used this ability to subdue Superman in order to kill him, only to be struck by Jordan to break his concentration to allow Superman to recover and attack.

Standard Green Lantern Corps and Alan Scott's rings can be used by anyone who wears them. Rayner's ring is keyed to his genetic pattern and is useless to anyone else, except for Hal Jordan, as shown in Green Lantern (3rd series) #99. However, this has also been subsequently changed. As of "Green Lantern: Rebirth", only people with exceptional wills can use power rings, a restriction which makes uses of the rings by average individuals improbable. Still, the requirements needed to wield a power ring have changed sporadically across the years, often creating continuity errors. In some incarnations a power ring can only be used by someone who literally has no concept of fear and is completely honest. In the Elseworlds tale "Red Son," for example, Lex Luthor is unable to use the ring found on the dead Abin Sur since he is quite obviously a dishonest figure and must give the ring to that reality's Hal Jordan, a slightly unhinged figure who nevertheless exhibits fearlessness, honesty, and an uncommon will. But in the paperback "The Road Back," Hal and Guy Gardner temporarily lose their rings to two smalltown rubes at a diner when they unwisely decide to brawl without using their powers. The hicks are able to wield the power rings with apparent ease until they are subdued by Jordan and Gardner. Sometimes a Green Lantern must literally be brave and honest to even use the ring, sometimes it's just recommended. It remains to be seen whether or not power rings will be kept out of the hands of average people in the post "Rebirth" Green Lantern series. Allowing power rings to fall into the wrong hands has been a favorite plot device in many previous Green Lantern stories.

Normally an individual will only receive a power ring upon the death of the previous wielder, and then only if they pass the criteria for membership in the Corps. Often, the search for a new wielder is consciously initiated by a current Green Lantern when he realizes death is imminent, but it has also been demonstrated that a ring can conduct such a search on its own if circumstances require it. Also, though it is frequently implied that there are a fixed and finite number of power rings in existence, many stories show power rings creating duplicates of themselves for the purpose of arming auxiliary Green Lanterns. During a particular story arc in which a pre-Parallax Hal Jordan was cast forward in time to meet Kyle Rayner, it was stated that a ring of the Green Lantern Corps had the ability to duplicate itself without limit, thus allowing the entire Corps to be reconstituted from a single ring if necessary

[TheCorpulent1]

That thing's outdated. Alan's ring can no longer be used by anyone because it's powerless now. The power of the Starheart resides within Alan himself.

[pifpaf]

is for giving idea how the ring work

[Varient]

That thing's outdated. Alan's ring can no longer be used by anyone because it's powerless now. The power of the Starheart resides within Alan himself.

BOT.

Interesting that this all has been argued before with folk argueing against assumptions on Ring limits.

Meh.

[November Rain]

Okay.

From Justice League Chronology (http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/jla/_chron/jlachron6.html)


So there you go. In-canon evidence that the ring not only can synthesize Kryptonite, but that it has synthesized Kryptonite.
pwned

[Aristotle]

That's actually not the only example of it either. There was some story where Kyle had to set down the entire League (maybe a Classified arc?) and his step against Superman was to synthesize kryptonite.

[TheCorpulent1]

BOT.

Interesting that this all has been argued before with folk argueing against assumptions on Ring limits.

Meh.
"Bot"? :confused:

[Varient]

"Bot"? :confused:

BOT = "Back On Top"
:word:

[TheCorpulent1]

Ah. I don't see what my post had to do with anything, though. I was stating a fact about Alan Scott. :confused:

[Varient]

Ah. I don't see what my post had to do with anything, though. I was stating a fact about Alan Scott. :confused:

No heat.

The debate was hot and heavy on this thread as far as ring limits too and you were the only one to come back and challenge PP on his posting the stuff on green Lantern.

consider yourself a good step-off point.

V.

[Miss Webb]

It's amazing how many people still don't know Alan is the personification of the Starheart, especially over at Bloc Forums...they still think he has a magic ring from the train wreck...:whatever:

There's probably a disconnect because Alan's not featured with any consistency.

[Silicon Surfer]

Is there any particular reason for reviving a topic dead and buried for a year and a half? Or are you just as bored as I am? :)

[BrianWilly]

Oh my Buffyness.Right. And I think that goes along with what I said in my original post, that the ring is completely capable of doing these things. It is completely within the capacity of the ring to be the greatest weapon in the universe.

Anything that it doesn't do, therefore, is a "flaw" on the part of the wielder, not the ring.Is this or is this not the same exact thing I've been reiterating for the past days? Man, I can't believe I was so darn smart even back then.

[Aristotle]

Varient, have you ever noticed that sometimes it's impossible to discern what you're saying?

[Varient]

Varient, have you ever noticed that sometimes it's impossible to discern what you're saying?

no.

I have noticed that a few of you are out of sync or don't take my words in context of what came before.

Sometimes it's like spoon feeding someone when you have to explain what was said two pages ago in the same thread.

[Stallion9979]

I seem to remember during the Sacrifice arc leading up to IC...the power of Superman trumps a Lanterns will...

when Supes goes all nuts John encases him in a green prison, Superman remarks in his head...

"I hit the construct with everything I have, the force of my punch versus the force of John's will.....I win..."

He hits the thing so hard he actually knocks John out...

So I would think that if it came down to it...Superman could take out a GL if he so wanted to and was driven enough....

But they also showed that realistically if Superman went rogue Batman aint gonna do nothing about it....if not for Wonder Woman appearing to save him Bats was going down for the count...

as well as the rest of the League later in the same arc...he wasnt trying to hurt them only get them out of his way and he did it with ease....

[Aristotle]

Yeah, but that's just a construct. If it was actual kryptonite, or GL-synthesized kryptonite, then I'm thinking Supes can't just punch through that.

[BrianWilly]

Varient, have you ever noticed that sometimes it's impossible to discern what you're saying?HA!:up: Believe me, people have been telling him this for ages, but he keeps treating it like it's everyone else's problem and not his.

[TheCorpulent1]

I seem to remember during the Sacrifice arc leading up to IC...the power of Superman trumps a Lanterns will...

when Supes goes all nuts John encases him in a green prison, Superman remarks in his head...

"I hit the construct with everything I have, the force of my punch versus the force of John's will.....I win..."

He hits the thing so hard he actually knocks John out...

So I would think that if it came down to it...Superman could take out a GL if he so wanted to and was driven enough....

But they also showed that realistically if Superman went rogue Batman aint gonna do nothing about it....if not for Wonder Woman appearing to save him Bats was going down for the count...

as well as the rest of the League later in the same arc...he wasnt trying to hurt them only get them out of his way and he did it with ease....
Eh, it's dependent on the story. If the story calls for a GL to defeat Superman, they'll find a way. If it calls for vice-versa, Superman'll find a way. Chalk it up to the unreliable nature of something like willpower. Maybe John is capable of holding Supes but he just underestimated his strength--supposedly, Superman always holds back around other heroes.

[Varient]

HA!:up: Believe me, people have been telling him this for ages, but he keeps treating it like it's everyone else's problem and not his.
I agree - on this board it is every one who has an issue with it and not me.

Seeing as I don't have this problem where I work,... (software company),
With what I do, (Customer service where I troubleshoot and repair software issues over the phone.)
or who I deal with, (both the computer illiterate and my fellow techs.)

I can see the problem is a lot of assuming on the part of those who have trouble understanding me.

No heat,.. I'm used to folk telling me that a word is not "a real word" here or someone here complaining that one word mispelled,... (and they give the correct spelling), makes it "impossible" for them to understand what I am saying.

In both cases we either waste time bringing up references to prove the word is real or suffering the tantrums of folk who need things couched in whatever their local dialect before they can except things as written.

Since I don't have this problem in real life - then YES the problem is the three or four of you here.

V.

[yenaled]

It would just be nice if you stopped abusing punctuation and that's all. No need to lament about it.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm still not certain why Varient feels each and every sentence needs its own line with double-spacing between them. But other than that, I have no problem understanding a good 90% of his posts and only minimal problems understanding another 9%. It's just that rare, odd post that makes up the final 1% that leaves me scratching my head, totally clueless.

[Aristotle]

Well, he's certainly no AnnoyingSilence, but he doesn't seem to think things through sometimes.

[TheCorpulent1]

lolz, all lives touched by the DTL come away bearing the scars of AS.

[Aristotle]

Does he even post anywhere else?

[TheCorpulent1]

Nope.

[Aristotle]

He's a member of the Hype solely to play DTL?

[Varient]

It would just be nice if you stopped abusing punctuation and that's all. No need to lament about it.

If it were that easy.

No, I've taken abuse when sentence structure and punctuation were correct.

We once wasted pages on the term "come correct."

Pages on the fact that they couldn't believe that the phrase was used in a sentence?


Meh.

[Aristotle]

See, there you go, were those really all deserving of paragraph status?

[TheCorpulent1]

He's a member of the Hype solely to play DTL?
Yeah. He's JewishHobbit's brother-in-law, and I guess he saw JH playing back in one of the earlier seasons and thought it seemed cool. I don't remember exactly how or when he joined. He's posted in other forums occasionally, but he sticks mostly to the DTL.

[GL1]

Since I don't have this problem in real life - then YES the problem is the three or four of you here.

Unless, of course, the situations are different in some obvious way which you have yet to realize. That would require you not being omniscient though, so... no go.

And please, don't brag on your helpdesk job. I do the same thing and it's a stepping stone at most.

As for the question: I think this whole arguement stems from a narrowing of the Green Lantern Universe. In Original Concept, the Green Lantern Ring could do ANYTHING. Period. It only needed the willpower and to be checked in every 24 hours.

I think part of this need to limit the ring (and not the ring bearer) comes from the mythos centering so heavily on individuals, especially Hal, who, due to the type of heroes the are, do not have limits, and are best when they are 'perfect' and infallible. Having 'not enough willpower' for a task is demeaning for such silver-age-styled heroes, and as such, the easy answer is to impose limits on the ring. It runs out of charge a LOT more quickly now than ever. Limiting the amount of willpower the ring can channel. These are great ways to not overpower Green Lantern whil still keeping the actual ring slinger irreproachable in every way.

If DC would just let hte GLU be bigger than Hal Jordan, we wouldn't have this problem, and we'd be able to stick to the pure concept, instead of watering it down into an elemental mastery.

[TheCorpulent1]

If it were that easy.

No, I've taken abuse when sentence structure and punctuation were correct.

We once wasted pages on the term "come correct."

Pages on the fact that they couldn't believe that the phrase was used in a sentence?


Meh.
Pff, them *****es need to come correct with some proper complaints instead of wasting time on that shiz, knowumsayin'?

[Varient]

Unless, of course, the situations are different in some obvious way which you have yet to realize. That would require you not being omniscient though, so... no go.

And please, don't brag on your helpdesk job. I do the same thing and it's a stepping stone at most.

As for the question: I think this whole arguement stems from a narrowing of the Green Lantern Universe. In Original Concept, the Green Lantern Ring could do ANYTHING. Period. It only needed the willpower and to be checked in every 24 hours.

I think part of this need to limit the ring (and not the ring bearer) comes from the mythos centering so heavily on individuals, especially Hal, who, due to the type of heroes the are, do not have limits, and are best when they are 'perfect' and infallible. Having 'not enough willpower' for a task is demeaning for such silver-age-styled heroes, and as such, the easy answer is to impose limits on the ring. It runs out of charge a LOT more quickly now than ever. Limiting the amount of willpower the ring can channel. These are great ways to not overpower Green Lantern whil still keeping the actual ring slinger irreproachable in every way.

If DC would just let hte GLU be bigger than Hal Jordan, we wouldn't have this problem, and we'd be able to stick to the pure concept, instead of watering it down into an elemental mastery.

Off topic:
Yes,.. this job is a stepping stone, closer to a rest stop - as I'm in the process of retraining toward what I really want to do - I wasn't bragging about it - I was stating that the number of people I interact easily with on a DAILY BASIS kinda trumps the opinions of a few on a messageboard who need to fuss and act clueless because I misspell a word or use an idiom they don't recognize.

On topic:
I agree - IMHO DC is putting more science into the green lantern mythos, making it make more sense by explaining more of the why and how, and placing limits on the tech.

V.

[GL1]

I agree - IMHO DC is putting more science into the green lantern mythos, making it make more sense by explaining more of the why and how, and placing limits on the tech.

V.

Wow, in what way does toning down the Green Lanterns "make more sense?" In the same way that Midichlorians make Jedi make more sense? Because that kind of making sense betrays the theme and premise, and, as such, is bad writing.

When has it ever even been established that the rings are "tech" in any traditional sense? I can see why adding this kind of pseudo-science to the GL mythos may appeal to some, but it handicaps the concept and strikes me as horridly shortsighted.

[Varient]

Wow, in what way does toning down the Green Lanterns "make more sense?" In the same way that Midichlorians make Jedi make more sense? Because that kind of making sense betrays the theme and premise, and, as such, is bad writing.

When has it ever even been established that the rings are "tech" in any traditional sense? I can see why adding this kind of pseudo-science to the GL mythos may appeal to some, but it handicaps the concept and strikes me as horridly shortsighted.

Back when Grell was drawing GL,.. He made a point to make the rings "Tech" vice mystical magical stuff on the side of order.


Back then before Grell - the stories were "just because" stories and Moralistic stories involving Hal solving a problem w/o the ring. Grell introduced A "Star Trek" feel to Green Lantern - there was a lot more "science" than what had come previously.

I don't see it as toning down so much as putting in perspective. People read comics and really don't equate the scale of whats going on with how it would appear in real life.

I mean step outside and look up. Now imagine focusing your mind on surrounding the entire world in a green shell. You are trying to imagine hundreds of thousands of square miles encapsulated in a field of energy.

another example,... imagine flying to Mars right now,... cold,.. don't access an almanac to determine where in the sky it is - just take off.

How would you find it? If you find it,... will you fly directly at it or lead it a little? How would you increase or decrease your speed in space?

I feel the same way about most GL feats. There is no "magic" lost like in Star Wars by explaining more GL tech.

V.

[GL1]

Back when Grell was drawing GL,.. He made a point to make the rings "Tech" vice mystical magical stuff on the side of order.


Back then before Grell - the stories were "just because" stories and Moralistic stories involving Hal solving a problem w/o the ring. Grell introduced A "Star Trek" feel to Green Lantern - there was a lot more "science" than what had come previously.

I don't see it as toning down so much as putting in perspective. People read comics and really don't equate the scale of whats going on with how it would appear in real life.

I mean step outside and look up. Now imagine focusing your mind on surrounding the entire world in a green shell. You are trying to imagine hundreds of thousands of square miles encapsulated in a field of energy.

another example,... imagine flying to Mars right now,... cold,.. don't access an almanac to determine where in the sky it is - just take off.

How would you find it? If you find it,... will you fly directly at it or lead it a little? How would you increase or decrease your speed in space?

I feel the same way about most GL feats. There is no "magic" lost like in Star Wars by explaining more GL tech.

V.

Yes, there is. Even just defining as tech as opposed to simply being tech-like takes away the magic because, outside of the unknown point where they blend together, tech and magic are mutually exclusive.

Explaining the process of how certain feats are done is fine. Playing up the Sci-fi concepts is fine.

Limiting the rings and hamstringing the premise is not.

[TheCorpulent1]

The rings have been defined as tech for a long time, haven't they? Alan Scott is the only Green Lantern in current continuity whose powers are fueled by overtly magical means. The GLC rings are tech in the same way the Blue Beetle's scarab is tech--they're just undefined tech that's indistinguishable from magic.

[GL1]

The GLC rings are tech in the same way the Blue Beetle's scarab is tech--they're just undefined tech that's indistinguishable from magic.

Okay, I'll buy that. That sounds closer to the truth, anway.

And it also explains this feeling I have that defining the tech takes away from the magic.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, any sort of engine that converts willpower and thoughts into physical constructs or reality-bending effects is going to come off looking like magic. It's just way too far beyond anything even remotely conceivable by current, real-life technology.

[Varient]

Yes, there is. Even just defining as tech as opposed to simply being tech-like takes away the magic because, outside of the unknown point where they blend together, tech and magic are mutually exclusive.

Explaining the process of how certain feats are done is fine. Playing up the Sci-fi concepts is fine.

Limiting the rings and hamstringing the premise is not.

I guess it's relative. I don't require a schematic on the Ring with white papers giving all the specs,... but I do like the fact that they are "made" not pulled out of a blue butt as needed.

As far as I see,.. there has to be an upper limit, otherwise one guardian could do the job of all the GL's between moves in a chess game with his off duty blue friend,
Or with an planet GL, You could have an area of responsibility much much larger than what is posted because it's canon that the planet has so much willpower that it multitasks on an immense level - Encoding rings for future use, playing shrink and help-mate to mentally damaged gl's, doing hundreds of things for the corps w/o strain.

V.

[TheCorpulent1]

How do you know the Guardians aren't concerning themselves with far greater challenges to universal order while the GLs handle the more mundane challenges? Or that Mogo's space sector isn't 2 or 3 times larger than any other Lantern's? Have they specifically said that every single sector of space is exactly the same size?

[Silicon Surfer]

Each sector is 1/10 of a degree radiating out from Oa.

[TheCorpulent1]

According to...?

[Aristotle]

Silicon Surfer, dude.

[Silicon Surfer]

DC talked about that ages ago. Before the first widespread trouble with the Corp. whenever that was. Then for awhile they abandoned the concept of sectors.

[Varient]

How do you know the Guardians aren't concerning themselves with far greater challenges to universal order while the GLs handle the more mundane challenges? Or that Mogo's space sector isn't 2 or 3 times larger than any other Lantern's? Have they specifically said that every single sector of space is exactly the same size?

1. We don't know either way - but that is not an issue Because from the begining the guardians decided to get someone else to patrol the Universe. First Robots, then ringbearers.

2. No All the same size - Yes they have. More than once.

V.

[TheCorpulent1]

2 I honestly didn't know, so fair enough, I'll concede that. But for 1, what does how long they've been delegating patrolling the universe to others have to do with it? Suppose there are other things going on in the higher planes of existence that the Guardians deal with? We don't know what the hell the Guardians do with all their time or what occupies how much of their attention. It's possible they're just lazy and like having lackeys patrol the universe instead of doing it themselves, but that seems unlikely to me.

[Varient]

2 I honestly didn't know, so fair enough, I'll concede that. But for 1, what does how long they've been delegating patrolling the universe to others have to do with it? Suppose there are other things going on in the higher planes of existence that the Guardians deal with? We don't know what the hell the Guardians do with all their time or what occupies how much of their attention. It's possible they're just lazy and like having lackeys patrol the universe instead of doing it themselves, but that seems unlikely to me.


Lazy sounds good.

Lot of Hal Jordan Stories where Hal Had to save them from their lack of willingness to wield the green energy in their own defense. They alway act like they didn't want to get their hands dirty.

V.

[Varient]

2 I honestly didn't know, so fair enough, I'll concede that. But for 1, what does how long they've been delegating patrolling the universe to others have to do with it? Suppose there are other things going on in the higher planes of existence that the Guardians deal with? We don't know what the hell the Guardians do with all their time or what occupies how much of their attention. It's possible they're just lazy and like having lackeys patrol the universe instead of doing it themselves, but that seems unlikely to me.

Which reminds me:
http://forums.superherohype.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5003&stc=1&d=1199833816

I wonder what happened to these guys?

[LouFerignoDemon]

Well, any sort of engine that converts willpower and thoughts into physical constructs or reality-bending effects is going to come off looking like magic. It's just way too far beyond anything even remotely conceivable by current, real-life technology.


Especially when it goes about giving energy and matter to things that don't have energy and matter.

[Xofenroht]

I always thought the ring would be great to have, but never could get with how I saw them being used in the comics.

[GL1]

I guess it's relative. I don't require a schematic on the Ring with white papers giving all the specs,... but I do like the fact that they are "made" not pulled out of a blue butt as needed.

As far as I see,.. there has to be an upper limit, otherwise one guardian could do the job of all the GL's between moves in a chess game with his off duty blue friend,
Or with an planet GL, You could have an area of responsibility much much larger than what is posted because it's canon that the planet has so much willpower that it multitasks on an immense level - Encoding rings for future use, playing shrink and help-mate to mentally damaged gl's, doing hundreds of things for the corps w/o strain.

V.

Wow, I actually see what (I think) you mean. Odd, since you didn't actually say it and it involves a very interesting assumption.
A) If the ring has unlimited potential, then a person with infinite willpower could put on the ring and remake the universe. Notably, however, they would not have enough charge to do so... perhaps they could effect a whole sector?
B) If the ring had no upper limit, then the creators, the Guardians, would not have an upper limit either and could do everything themselves. That's the assumption, and I disagree, and think it's perfectly possible that the rings are more powerful than the Guardians just as cars are faster than humans. They don't use rings because they don't want to get their hands dirty, it seems. I personally think it would be very cool if one of the 10 new laws included an Oan Lantern for Sector 0. 3601 Lanterns. Heh.
C) Mogo could patrol multiple sectors if the ring had no upper limit? Perhaps, perhaps not. Perhaps he could patrol his whole sector from his stationary orbit, which, techinically would be necessary since he is a sector GL. Furthermore, he does this while multitasking on an immense level. Is it possible that he could do much more if not multitasking? Perhaps so... but what's the problem with that? What were you thinking by "Much much larger?" and did you have any references for this size assumption?

Every way we try to slice it, the original concept is for the willpower of the individual to determine the limit of that individual's power level. Changing that is something very new and very limiting, storywise.

In short: No, Varient, there does not have to be an upper limit. A lack of such would not create any of the discrepancies you have pointed out.