About Kingdom Come

[El Bastardo]

Okay, DC peoples. I need a bit of help from any of you familiar with the book the thread's title.

I'm taking a course titled The Graphic Novel this semester. The agreement was for the class to choose, through vote, a fourth book, and for we students to make suggestions. Because we're studying comics as a medium, and had not yet looked at a superhero book, and because the superhero genre accounts for about 90% of the medium, I suggested a superhero book. After speaking at length with my comic store owner, he said I should probably suggest Kingdom Come, due to its standing alone and out of continuity as an Elseworlds title (the people in my class, for the most part, have no superhero experience), its price, and said that it was some of Mark Waid's finest writing. I figured, okay. I read Waid in Top Cow's Hunter-Killer.

I pitched the idea, the class voted, and Kingdom Come won.

Of course, the people who hadn't voted for the book don't like it. More accurately, they probably don't let themselves like it. "They're superheroes... I mean... how can you even take it seriously? I can't read this." <-- Sample line from class discussion, hurrah.

Here's my problem: most of the class seems so happy to point out a few lines of dialogue here or there, comment on how corny, campy, melodramatic, etc. they are, and from there move to condemn all of the writing in the book as corny, campy, and melodramatic. And, you know, hey, certainly some of the dialogue is, but not all of it. Or that it's simplistic and doesn't match the plot. I don't know if they were expecting some human crime drama, or a book modeled after Seinfeld, or something... but, c'mon. They're superheroes, it's a superhero book - the text is going to be more fantastic than realistic. Apparently only I get that.

So, I ask any and all of you for help and suggestions in defending the book in class (or at least to make me feel better, and not like a loser for liking it @_@), for I am pretty much at a loss.

[Elijya]

You shoulda gone with Marvels, IMO. It woulda worked much better on a skeptical crowd, since it's superheroes viewed from a human perspective

If you wanna make the case for it, just use the mythology analogy. Superhero Comics are the modern day descendents of Hercules, Achilles, St. George, Beowolf, Paul Bunyon, etc.. DC characters, in particular, are Iconic, they stand for a greater ideal. Marvel characters are the ones you relate to, DC characters are the ones you look up to.

Superheroes are a metaphor for all that can be good inside us. Most fiction, particularly science fiction, uses extreme metaphor to put our own lives into perspective. In this case, the extended metaphor is men who can fly and lift buildings. But they still have to stand for something.

[Elijya]

Out of curiosity, what other books are you reading? Some Eisner and Spiegelman, I trust?

[Elijya]

Pose a question to the class: If you had super powers, let's say Superman's set, what you do with them, really? Get rich? Live a life of luxury? Work for the government and the military? Help humanity? Conquer humanity? What would you really do if you had them? Now consider that, and consider what you see Superman doing. Sacrificing day after day, never stopping, never giving up hope and faith in humanity, never making the easy but wrong decisions instead of the hard but right ones (you also shoulda considered Superman: Peace on Earth). Why does he do it? Why would you do/not do it if you had the same abilities?

Saying "I can't relate to people with superpowers" is rubish, because they're all still human. Behind their masks and powers, they face the same decisions you would have to face if you had their powers. They're not different where it counts

[LibrarianThorne]

Okay, DC peoples. I need a bit of help from any of you familiar with the book the thread's title.

I'm taking a course titled The Graphic Novel this semester. The agreement was for the class to choose, through vote, a fourth book, and for we students to make suggestions. Because we're studying comics as a medium, and had not yet looked at a superhero book, and because the superhero genre accounts for about 90% of the medium, I suggested a superhero book. After speaking at length with my comic store owner, he said I should probably suggest Kingdom Come, due to its standing alone and out of continuity as an Elseworlds title (the people in my class, for the most part, have no superhero experience), its price, and said that it was some of Mark Waid's finest writing. I figured, okay. I read Waid in Top Cow's Hunter-Killer.

I pitched the idea, the class voted, and Kingdom Come won.

Of course, the people who hadn't voted for the book don't like it. More accurately, they probably don't let themselves like it. "They're superheroes... I mean... how can you even take it seriously? I can't read this." <-- Sample line from class discussion, hurrah.

Here's my problem: most of the class seems so happy to point out a few lines of dialogue here or there, comment on how corny, campy, melodramatic, etc. they are, and from there move to condemn all of the writing in the book as corny, campy, and melodramatic. And, you know, hey, certainly some of the dialogue is, but not all of it. Or that it's simplistic and doesn't match the plot. I don't know if they were expecting some human crime drama, or a book modeled after Seinfeld, or something... but, c'mon. They're superheroes, it's a superhero book - the text is going to be more fantastic than realistic. Apparently only I get that.

So, I ask any and all of you for help and suggestions in defending the book in class (or at least to make me feel better, and not like a loser for liking it @_@), for I am pretty much at a loss.

There are better superhero stories than Kingdom Come, for people new to the medium. For a skeptical crowd, I'd have thrown Watchmen at them. People see Watchmen as much more mature, and it really is a book that says "Think superheroes are campy and melodramatic? Think again!"

As to your class, bring up myths. Something like, "I bet many scholars at the time thought the Odyssey was campy, fantastic, and unrealistic. What about those trials of Hercules, huh? Battle of Troy? And hey, Alexander the Great is SO unrealistic. I mean, conquering the world? What's up with that?"

Lex Luthor is Alexander the Great. Superman is Hercules. Batman is Odysseus. Martian Manhunter is Jason of Argo (a reference to the JLA being the Argonauts).

Superheroes are our myths and legends. Just as we still know and talk about Hercules, so will our descendants and future people talk about Superman, the 20th century's greatest myth.

If you really want to spark debate, give them something unexpected. Critique the Odyssey as a superhero work. It's so fantastic and unbelievable, that's what it is, right? You can't hop on a boat and fight giants and go to hell, can you? So of course it's a superhero story.

Because, and this is pretty much the point of the superhero, that one man's myth is another man's superhero. You might need to switch around a lion pelt for a red cape with an 'S' on the back, though.

Edit: My room mate (an English major and comic nerd about on par with me) said that if you want them to respect the work, you have to get them to like it. Ask them what's bad about the plot, or the characters, and if they like the plot or the characters then really you can go from there.

[ToddIsDead]

I wouldn't have picked Kingdom Come, eventhough it's probably my favorite book, but I think it's better for people to atleast know a bit about the characters before they go into this huge epic that is mostly about various character conflicts.

But remember, Kingdom Com is very biblical, and it's roots are deeply grounded in ancient mythology. Use some of that.

P.S. They all suck. Kingdom come rocks.

Kingdom Come > The majority of your class :p

[Binker]

What school/college are you taking? And how can I join that school/college to take that course?

[ToddIsDead]

I'd like to know too.

[Elijya]

a number of colleges and universities offer courses centering on Graphic Novels

[ToddIsDead]

I didn't know that. I'm only a Sophmore in High School, so I haven't looked into many colleges.

[Elijya]

I know 100 Bullets has been taught in classes about crime literature alongside works by Mamet, Chandler, and Hammett

[Elijya]

If you want to go to a school JUST BECAUSE they have courses for comics, learn to draw and apply at the Joe Kubert School

[ToddIsDead]

I had actually looked into the Joe Kubert school. I've been trying to tighten my art up for a while. But I might look into film school too.

[Binker]

I....'am.....really.....screwed.

My dreams are all gone...I now I can't get it back.

[Motown Marvel]

if they're getting pissed about a few pieces of dialogue and ignoring the story as a whole because of it...then they're just being ignorant, prejudiced, and stubborn...and you should tell them that. hell, citizen kane and casablanca are phenominal films, but i can certainly point out dialogue that leaves something to be desired.

[Lackey]

But remember, Kingdom Com is very biblical, and it's roots are deeply grounded in ancient mythology. Use some of that.



Exactly what was I gonna point out... the most obvious metaphor of Kingdom Come, the return of the messiah to save the world. :up:

[ToddIsDead]

Exactly :up:

[gregtestagent]

Kingdome Come is for fans who are little more than "familiar" with most or all of the characters. It was great for me because I have been following most of these characters and I already knew what they were about and how they would act. Peeps who don't know about Flash or Captian Marvel, wouldn't know how to relate and adapt to them. Besides, there are few, if any, main characters in the story, and people hate that in a story.

[ToddIsDead]

Like Elijya said, Marvels might have been a better book. You wouldn't neccessarily need to know who all of the characters are. Even something like Batman Year One or Arkham Asylum would be good. If you really wanted to knock them out, Watchmen.

[twylight]

What college are you going to?

[drastic_quench]

Aw, man. Kingdom Come was a bad choice for the uninitiated. It's hardly a book with stand-alone continuity because it's one big game of "Whose that guy?".

Watchmen would've been cool because you don't know who any of these people are. The Charlton references aren't necessary to the story.

DKR - You tell 'em: Bruce is Bats, Gordon's the Comish, Dick was the Robin you all think of when you hear Robin. Jason's the dead one. Alfred's the butler. Harvery's Two Face. Joker's Joker. You're good to go.

Even more so than Marvles, Astro-City: Life in the Big City would have been an inspired choice.

[El Bastardo]

Egads. So many responses. Thanks, guys. =D <3

As for the college: Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts. Local to where I go, so it's cheap for me... I'm just trying to make the best of what I'm stuck with. >_<

And yes, the students are, for the most part, prejudiced, ignorant, and idiots. For the most part, the ones that are whining are the ones who didn't vote for it, in favor of "literature" like Maus (which they've read before in another class with the same professor) or Stuck Rubber Baby. Because certainly superhero comics cannot be counted as "literature." :rolleyes:

And... I dunno about Kingdom Come being such an awful choice for a title. I've barely read any DC, and have only a passing familiarity with characters... and, really, the three characters at the helm of Kingdom Come are Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman, then with Luthor and Captain Marvel. The readers don't really have to know every bit of information about every character, or even the major characters, to read the book. I know I haven't. =/ And there is a little section of bonus materials in the back that details the major characters, so... *shrugs*

That said, my comic guy said this is probably one of his favorite and top 10 trades. And it also stands alone, which was a big plus. I don't think I've noticed any references to detailed past events that stand outside of the book, and as for character interactions, well, I'd say it's fairly easy to pick out the enmity between Superman and Batman, for instance.

I don't think the choice of text is so much a problem as is the unwillingness displayed on the part of my dearest classmates. And yes, Kingdom Come > the majority of my classmates. :D

And Elijya - our other three texts were Peter Kuper's graphic novel adaptation of Franz Kafka's short story "The Metamorphosis," Mr. Punch by Gaiman and McKean, and In the Shadow of No Towers by Spiegelman.

All that aside... Thanks a TON, guys, for the idea to use mythological references. I had seriously not considered it, although I had thought of something like it. Instead, I used Shakespeare. Yeah, I'm an English major.
I made the loose comparison of Kingdom Come to Hamlet (or, really, any of Shakespeare's works). They're both written works - the reader opens to the first page and rides the story to its ending point. Do comic readers (or those with any familiarity with DC heroes) get a little more out of Kingdom Come than the uninitiated? Yes, they do. Then again, someone who knows European History gets a little more out of Shakespeare's plays. Does lacking either background destroy the ability to read, absorb, and understand the text in question? No.

Said reasoning was, of course, lost on the louts. Big surprise?

I shall certainly try with the mythology idea - but the cynic in me thinks they'll say myths and legends are silly and stupid too.

Thanks again, guys. Feel free to keep posting anymore comments or questions, or send a PM my way.

[batnkevlar]

Kingdom Come is a good one, and even Ultimates Volume One, I mean, they'll oogle at the art... but for literature, Kingdom Come and Marvels are good choices...

[LibrarianThorne]

Egads. So many responses. Thanks, guys. =D <3

As for the college: Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts. Local to where I go, so it's cheap for me... I'm just trying to make the best of what I'm stuck with. >_<

And yes, the students are, for the most part, prejudiced, ignorant, and idiots. For the most part, the ones that are whining are the ones who didn't vote for it, in favor of "literature" like Maus (which they've read before in another class with the same professor) or Stuck Rubber Baby. Because certainly superhero comics cannot be counted as "literature." :rolleyes:

And... I dunno about Kingdom Come being such an awful choice for a title. I've barely read any DC, and have only a passing familiarity with characters... and, really, the three characters at the helm of Kingdom Come are Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman, then with Luthor and Captain Marvel. The readers don't really have to know every bit of information about every character, or even the major characters, to read the book. I know I haven't. =/ And there is a little section of bonus materials in the back that details the major characters, so... *shrugs*

That said, my comic guy said this is probably one of his favorite and top 10 trades. And it also stands alone, which was a big plus. I don't think I've noticed any references to detailed past events that stand outside of the book, and as for character interactions, well, I'd say it's fairly easy to pick out the enmity between Superman and Batman, for instance.

I don't think the choice of text is so much a problem as is the unwillingness displayed on the part of my dearest classmates. And yes, Kingdom Come > the majority of my classmates. :D

And Elijya - our other three texts were Peter Kuper's graphic novel adaptation of Franz Kafka's short story "The Metamorphosis," Mr. Punch by Gaiman and McKean, and In the Shadow of No Towers by Spiegelman.

All that aside... Thanks a TON, guys, for the idea to use mythological references. I had seriously not considered it, although I had thought of something like it. Instead, I used Shakespeare. Yeah, I'm an English major.
I made the loose comparison of Kingdom Come to Hamlet (or, really, any of Shakespeare's works). They're both written works - the reader opens to the first page and rides the story to its ending point. Do comic readers (or those with any familiarity with DC heroes) get a little more out of Kingdom Come than the uninitiated? Yes, they do. Then again, someone who knows European History gets a little more out of Shakespeare's plays. Does lacking either background destroy the ability to read, absorb, and understand the text in question? No.

Said reasoning was, of course, lost on the louts. Big surprise?

I shall certainly try with the mythology idea - but the cynic in me thinks they'll say myths and legends are silly and stupid too.

Thanks again, guys. Feel free to keep posting anymore comments or questions, or send a PM my way.

If they say myths and legends are silly, perhaps you could regale them with how myths and legends inspired the Nazi movement. Or the Christian faith (Samson, anyone?). Maybe ask them why it's the myths of ancient Greece, and not the overtly serious works, that have the greatest impact on the modern day world.

I'd really hope your professor would laugh at the people that sayid myths were silly and stupid, though. Any English major worth his or her salt will recognize the importance and value of a myth.

[Lackey]

Egads. So many responses. Thanks, guys. =D <3

As for the college: Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts. Local to where I go, so it's cheap for me... I'm just trying to make the best of what I'm stuck with. >_<

And yes, the students are, for the most part, prejudiced, ignorant, and idiots. For the most part, the ones that are whining are the ones who didn't vote for it, in favor of "literature" like Maus (which they've read before in another class with the same professor) or Stuck Rubber Baby. Because certainly superhero comics cannot be counted as "literature." :rolleyes:

And... I dunno about Kingdom Come being such an awful choice for a title. I've barely read any DC, and have only a passing familiarity with characters... and, really, the three characters at the helm of Kingdom Come are Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman, then with Luthor and Captain Marvel. The readers don't really have to know every bit of information about every character, or even the major characters, to read the book. I know I haven't. =/ And there is a little section of bonus materials in the back that details the major characters, so... *shrugs*

That said, my comic guy said this is probably one of his favorite and top 10 trades. And it also stands alone, which was a big plus. I don't think I've noticed any references to detailed past events that stand outside of the book, and as for character interactions, well, I'd say it's fairly easy to pick out the enmity between Superman and Batman, for instance.

I don't think the choice of text is so much a problem as is the unwillingness displayed on the part of my dearest classmates. And yes, Kingdom Come > the majority of my classmates. :D

And Elijya - our other three texts were Peter Kuper's graphic novel adaptation of Franz Kafka's short story "The Metamorphosis," Mr. Punch by Gaiman and McKean, and In the Shadow of No Towers by Spiegelman.

All that aside... Thanks a TON, guys, for the idea to use mythological references. I had seriously not considered it, although I had thought of something like it. Instead, I used Shakespeare. Yeah, I'm an English major.
I made the loose comparison of Kingdom Come to Hamlet (or, really, any of Shakespeare's works). They're both written works - the reader opens to the first page and rides the story to its ending point. Do comic readers (or those with any familiarity with DC heroes) get a little more out of Kingdom Come than the uninitiated? Yes, they do. Then again, someone who knows European History gets a little more out of Shakespeare's plays. Does lacking either background destroy the ability to read, absorb, and understand the text in question? No.

Said reasoning was, of course, lost on the louts. Big surprise?

I shall certainly try with the mythology idea - but the cynic in me thinks they'll say myths and legends are silly and stupid too.

Thanks again, guys. Feel free to keep posting anymore comments or questions, or send a PM my way.



I'm curious to know what your teacher thought of the choice and if your teacher had read it before... what's your teacher's background?

[Elijya]

I shall certainly try with the mythology idea - but the cynic in me thinks they'll say myths and legends are silly and stupid too.
Then remind them that most myths and legends were stone cold fact for many of the cultures that believed in them, as real to them as Christ is to Christians or Mohammed to Muslims.

When Christ taught the masses, he used parables, tales demonstrating morality. What are superhero tales but that same concept with more complexity and a bit of fantasy sprinkled on it?

but yeah, definitely given the other reading material for the class, Watchman or Marvels would have been MUCH better choices

[El Bastardo]

I assumed they could handle reading a good book with iconic and cultural-institution superheroes. Heh.

I wanted to pitch Ultimates Volume 1, but I decided instead that I wanted to do a research/presentation on it instead. The fact that it's hardcover and $30 bucks, too, I think made it a bit less appealing than Kingdom Come. ... Why? I don't know. It's still cheaper than a majority of textbooks. I had to pay something like $60 for a used textbook not thicker than an inch, and paperback. >_<

As for the professor who's teaching the class... She has no experience with the superhero genre, and has very little familiarity with the superheroes at all. Not too big on pop culture, it seems. That said, she's learning with the rest of them (and perhaps I should have spoken to her about, in this instance, being the effective teacher, but too late and oh well), certainly and definitely looking at it with an open mind, finding it fascinating and enjoyable, and not saying "it's a superhero book, and therefore it's stupid." She's often backed up my defense of it and gone against what other students have said.

[Elijya]

I she on the net? Fel free to link her to this thread

I assume she has an interest in comics if she started this class, and primarily non-superheroes. Just in case she hasn't heard of them, she should REALLY look into these comics:


Y-The Last Man
Sandman
Fables
100 Bullets
Transmetropolitan
Blankets
Box Office Poison
Tricked
Strangers in Paradise
Road to Perdition
Black Hole
Bone
Persepolis
From Hell
Mail Order Bride
ANYTHING by Will Eisner

I'm sure she's heard of at least some of these, and she may not be interested in some (I don't know her or what she likes) but in terms of non-power fantasy (i.e. superhero) graphic novels, these're some of the best

[El Bastardo]

Were I to link her to this thread, I'd probably have to edit out the comments I made toward my classmates. Hehe.

Persepolis, yes, she knows of. Also Maus, and some other one... Palestine, I think it's called. Someone suggested we use Road to Perdition for the class, but I think it's because he owns the movie and wanted to get out of having to read the fourth book. Heh. History of Violence is another one.

[LibrarianThorne]

I assumed they could handle reading a good book with iconic and cultural-institution superheroes. Heh.

I wanted to pitch Ultimates Volume 1, but I decided instead that I wanted to do a research/presentation on it instead. The fact that it's hardcover and $30 bucks, too, I think made it a bit less appealing than Kingdom Come. ... Why? I don't know. It's still cheaper than a majority of textbooks. I had to pay something like $60 for a used textbook not thicker than an inch, and paperback. >_<

As for the professor who's teaching the class... She has no experience with the superhero genre, and has very little familiarity with the superheroes at all. Not too big on pop culture, it seems. That said, she's learning with the rest of them (and perhaps I should have spoken to her about, in this instance, being the effective teacher, but too late and oh well), certainly and definitely looking at it with an open mind, finding it fascinating and enjoyable, and not saying "it's a superhero book, and therefore it's stupid." She's often backed up my defense of it and gone against what other students have said.

Bleh to the Ultimates. I love the series, but it's no great work of the industry. If you wanted something from Marvel, I'd suggest the Squadron Supreme or Marvels.

Kingdom Come is a bit of a 'deep end' sort of work, and while it stands as my personal favorite comic, a good introductory piece it isn't. I'd almost recommend something like the Hard Travelling Heroes era of Green Lantern/Green Arrow or the Watchmen.

Alternatively, the Transmetropolitan series or Uncle Sam would have been interesting choices. I know that at my university, Transmetropolitan volume 3 and Uncle Sam are used in Polisci 101.

[Elijya]

yeah, Ultimates is the "Independence Day" of comics. Entertaining, but it ain't gonna win an Academy Award

History of Violence I thought of, but the book isn't as deep as the movie

Green Lantern/Green Arrow is a landmark saga for comics... but for the period it was written in. It's relevent to the history of the medium, but it's not gonna win anybody over in this day and age.

Uncle Sam woulda have been a good choice in general, although it's not superhero, and Transmetropolitan would be an excellent example of a cyberpunk novel in comics form, but the whole series is also ten books

[TheCorpulent1]

If you want to look at it from an artistic standpoint, since you said you're looking at comics as a medium, tell them that KC is one of the finest examples of painted graphic storytelling in existence. If they open a copy of the trade, they'll see that for themselves. Alex Ross was a perfect choice for the epic grandiosity and powerful imagery that KC's story demanded.

[Elijya]

eh, but from what he's saying, most people probably didn't think of the book as epic or grandiose

[TheCorpulent1]

Then those people don't appreciate KC at all. Hugeness of scale is a major component of it. It's the Iliad of superhero tales. If they can't see that, there's probably no helping them.

[El Bastardo]

The Ultimates would have been a choice on basis of its art in reference to McCloud's Understanding Comics, as well as its ability to stand alone and completely introduce the characters. In retrospect, it would have taken some of the complaints out of it.

But, really. I don't think the problem is so much the text as the ignorant attitudes they're displaying. Not looking at something with an open mind is, after all, a display of ignorance, and it's what they're doing.

They notice the art. Some of them complain that it's hard to look at, or that it's too busy, but they notice it. I don't think they've related it to the story yet. Some are coming along with it very nicely... if this is a book only the advanced reader should read, then I have persuaded some of the more open-minded classmates over to the dark side. :D

I'm going to hit them, either tomorrow or Tuesday, with the mythological references, see if I get anywhere.

[Elijya]

They sound like a crowd who's seen too many Woddy Allen or Orsen Welles films, and now have an appreciation for "fine cinema" and find themselves unable to find enjoyment or any value in your typical action movie

[gregtestagent]

I'm curious to know what your teacher thought of the choice and if your teacher had read it before... what's your teacher's background?
Like the Sarah Silverman avatar there Lackey:) :up: I always found her kinda hot.

[TheCorpulent1]

They sound like a crowd who's seen too many Woddy Allen or Orsen Welles films, and now have an appreciation for "fine cinema" and find themselves unable to find enjoyment or any value in your typical action movie
Why not just call them snooty? They made a word for it, why not just use it? ;)

[El Bastardo]

They sound like a crowd who's seen too many Woddy Allen or Orsen Welles films, and now have an appreciation for "fine cinema" and find themselves unable to find enjoyment or any value in your typical action movie

They probably wouldn't know "fine cinema" if it kicked them in their rears.

Oh, something I thought of:
This one kid in the class certainly has superhero experience. However, he's the kind of reader who reads, typically, independent stuff rather than DC or Marvel, and thus believes himself better than the typical superhero reader. He, for instance, praises Watchmen and Alan Moore, but condemns Kingdom Come and Waid.
Oh, and he also said that Spider-man was a grounded-in-reality superhero who is in no way melodramatic. Kingdom Come, however, is -very- melodramatic.

Spider-Man is the melodramatic soap opera of comics. >.>

[TheCorpulent1]

Hahahahaha, that guy sounds like a great person to keep around for unintentional humor. :D

[El Bastardo]

Hahahahaha, that guy sounds like a great person to keep around for unintentional humor. :D

Or to hit with a big stick.

[Anubis]

You'll never find a more, hypocritical, and elitist group in the world than Comic book fans. We draw lines over everything. non superhero verses superhero, DC vs Marvel, Art vs Writing, Love the X-Men but hate homosexual characters, it doesn't matter. We've all done it in some form or another. It's kinda refreshing, wallowing in the hypocrisy of it all. Just a few hours ago I said people that dig Jim Lee's art over Frank Quietly's art are interested in style over substance. And yet, I write this right now. We are all a bunch of magnificent bastards aren't we?

[TheCorpulent1]

Hypocrites, yes. Bastards... that's between you, your mom, and the mailman.

[Anubis]

You know Corp, I could...burst your bubble, but I'll leave that to your mom to finally tell you exactly why you look so much like Nipsey Russell.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/AnubisGOD/the-wiz-actor-nipsey-russell-dies-a.jpg

[TheCorpulent1]

If only! :(

[MaskedManJRK]

If it were me, I would have chose Watchmen. It's a pretty good combination of powerfull heroes with human insecurities/flaws.

If your classmates could call THAT immature, then "da' nile" isn't just a river in Egypt anymore. :o

[MaskedManJRK]

As for Kingdom Come, I would also mention the biblical references in the story. Not just the Revalations / end of the world stuff that's pretty plain to see, but how most of the characters take up a biblical character in some senses.

Both Superman and Captain Marvel are Jesus figures. Superman's obvious, because he's the guy who's trying to preach peace, and Captain Marvel is because in the end he was the one in the right and he sacrificed himself because of it.

Also, while it turned out it wasn't so, for most of the story, Batman takes up a Judas archtype, with one of the "Apoclles," the super-men, betraying Superman and the other metas to the "Roman Empire," Lex Luthor and his MLF.

There are probably a lot more, but I'm not that well-read on the Bible, so I wouldn't know.

[Speedball]

did you read V for Vendetta? that would have been a good one. that, or Superman: Secret Identity.

[Speedball]

Or maybe Batman: Year one or pretty much every single Frank Miller Graphic novel ever made.

[Elijya]

Lke maybe the Dark Knight Strikes Again? yeah, I don't think so....

[GyLocke]

If you want to show them Superhero story, I would have gone with Red Son. It's something to talk about in collage I guess, since there are some real interesting things in it.
The capitalist leader Lex, only cares about himself and mad with power, while the communist leader superman cares for his people more than anything else. The first one is right for the wrong reasons, the other is wrong, but for the right reasons.
It's a very good metaphore, and it takes himself somewhat more serously.

[Pksoze]

Actually the best thing for people who are cynical about superheroes in general is miracleman by Alan Moore.

But that will never be collected it seems.

[MaskedManJRK]

Actually the best thing for people who are cynical about superheroes in general is miracleman by Alan Moore.

But that will never be collected it seems.

Eh, from what I've read of Miracleman, I don't think it holds a candle to Watchmen.

From what I've read, Miracleman is mostly a wierdly put together script that creates an excuse to have over-the-top, disturbing violence.

Watchmen, on the other hand, is f**kin' deep, philosophying, literature.

[Pksoze]

Eh, from what I've read of Miracleman, I don't think it holds a candle to Watchmen.

From what I've read, Miracleman is mostly a wierdly put together script that creates an excuse to have over-the-top, disturbing violence.

Watchmen, on the other hand, is f**kin' deep, philosophying, literature.


Then you're wrong.

I have the entire Moore run plus Gaiman.

It imho blows Watchmen away.

[ToddIsDead]

I agree with GyLocke about Red Son. It's really good and surprisingly, pretty deep. Plus, I was flabbergasted by the ending.

[Elijya]

I would not say that any Elsewhere books would be good. In order to fully understand and appreciate them, usually a knowledge and understanding of the real character are required first

[ToddIsDead]

I don't think something like Red Son is all that bad. If you have a border line knowledge of what Superman is about, truth, justice, being the ultimate good guy, and Luthor, always wanting to kill Superman, you'd pretty much get what the book is all about. Although, you do have a good point.

[Elijya]

Yeah, base knowledge of Superman is central, obviously, but remember that book also involves Bizarro, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern(s) and more

Those elements are fun for us comic fans, but I think if they weren't there it would be more accessible to non-fans

[ToddIsDead]

I can agree with that, but I still think it's fairly accesseble to the non-fan. But you're right, some of the stuff would go over their heads or confuse them.

[Binker]

I don't know if you could use this now but here's my debate on the graphic novels you could sue for a class, even to teach on:

First off, MARVELS & KINGDOM COME are perfect. One thing they share is that the everyman is the focus of each story. Not the superheroes. While that isn't entirely true in KINGDOM COME's case, its both interesting and somewhat better to read on what someone else from the public for example sees and feels from a situation that's going on rather than watch it mostly from the heroes and villians point of view.

Finally, its THE WORLD'S GREATEST SUPER-HEROES. Now if you don't know what that is, its the name to the collection that collects the 6 dini/Ross books of SUPERMAN: PEACE ON EARTH, BATMAN: WAR ON CRIME, SHAZAM! POWER OF HOPE, WONDER WOMAN: SPIRIT OF TRUTH, JLA: SECRET ORIGINS and JLA: LIBERTY & JUSTICE. The reason this is good? Its because it shows us how much HUMAN these superheroes are. This is very good to have, suggest and show to everyone.

Its like if somebody can't picture a superhero fighting something we face, well show them this and they'll see that they can see it. To give examples on this: Superman fights world hunger but he doesn't succeed. Yet, he learns and spreads his words of wisdom to everyone else to come together to fight the problem which, in turn, is from what his father use to say when he grew up. Batman goes and examines what he would've been like if he didn't have his resources (fight crime or join it) and in the end, he saves a kid who has experience the same tragedy he had and is gonna wait for someone to do the same to him.

Those are the examples of why this is good and why you should use it.

[MaskedManJRK]

Then you're wrong.

I have the entire Moore run plus Gaiman.

It imho blows Watchmen away.

Yeah, I haven't read it all, so I can't make an accurate review. But, I find it very hard to believe it blows Watchmen away--maybe in shock value and possibly emotion, but it can't possibly be as deep and inter-connecting as Watchmen.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Is Kingdom Come in an Hardcover Edition? I was going to pick it up over at Barnes and Nobles, but wasn't sure if there was a HC.

[mathhater]

^ wait til this summer...(I think July)....the Absolute version is coming out.


And it will rock....

[TheCorpulent1]

I have the hardcover KC already, but I think I'm going to get the Absolute version.