Power Levels

[The Question]

Now, I'm fairly certain most people here are familiar with what power levels for the major DC heroes I prefer (I've certainly *****ed about it enough). But this is not about me. My question is, what power levels do you prefer? How strong do you like your Superman? How fast do you like your Flash? For the Justice League big seven, what's your prefered power levels?

[Doc Destruction]

Flash should be fastest.

Superman should be strongest, followed by WW.

I DON'T like MM having strength as close as those two, he has much cooler various other powers. I would like him at half their strength, maybe less.

GL's ring should be able to hold any of them, with a possible excpetion of Superman, but that fight would have to knock GL out and exhaust Supes.

Any tactical problems should immediately be pointed to Batman, and he should ever be the "smartest" of the bunch.

[TheCorpulent1]

Superman
- Strongest and toughest of the bunch
- 3/4ths as fast as the Flash
- Heat vision can cut through/melt anything up to titanium
- Telescopic/microscopic vision good enough to see molecular structures
- Hearing good enough to hear everything around the world if he concentrates
- No goddamn cold breath

Wonder Woman
- Almost as strong as Superman
- Same speed as Superman
- Tough skin just shy of being bulletproof (otherwise her bracelets would be redundant)
- Literally unbreakable lasso
- Almost as good a fighter as Batman

Batman
- Normal human
- Best fighter of the bunch with only about half a dozen other people in the world better than he is
- Smartest of the bunch
- Lots of gadgets but nothing too crazy (i.e. no one-hit incapacitators for anyone other than normal people)

Flash
- Easily the fastest of the bunch, able to reach light speed easily and superluminal speeds if he pushes himself
- Able to steal and lend speed but only on whole bodies (no speeding up a person's left leg but not the right so they trip or anything that specific)
- Able to vibrate himself intangible, invisible, or through some other dimensions, no time travel without tech assistance

Green Lantern
- Normal human, physically
- Able to conjure up literally anything from the ring that he has a basic understanding of (the ring takes care of specifics)
- Able to phase through objects
- Able to fly at superluminal speeds, but reflexes remain at normal human level

Martian Manhunter
- Same strength level as Wonder Woman
- Almost as fast as Wonder Woman and Superman
- Able to shapeshift and elongate but not shrink or grow much
- Telepathy able to touch every mind on the planet simultaneously with some strain
- Martian Vision as powerful as Superman's heat vision

Aquaman
- About 3/4ths as strong as Superman, just under the Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman
- Same durability as Wonder Woman
- Speed and reflexes 10 to 15 times faster than a normal human's
- Able to breathe underwater
- Stronger telepathy than J'onn on marine life (still tied to the Clear), telepathy about 1/4th as strong as J'onn's on everything else
- Waterbearer hand
----- Cancels out all magic with varying degrees of difficulty depending on how powerful the magic is (magic from Tempest would be instantaneous, magic from the Spectre would take much longer)
----- Heals any injury short of death in varying amounts of time depending on the extent of the injury
----- Boosts telepathy to aforementioned levels
----- Provides visions of the future sporadically
----- Shapeshifts and alters density
----- Keeps him hydrated out of water, so his abilities stay at optimum levels no matter how long he's out of water

I probably forgot stuff, but whatever.

[Lackey]

Rucka's Wonder Woman
Loeb and Kelly's Superman
Johns's Flash
Kelly's Martian Manhunter
Winick's GL
Brubaker's Batman



(all in all, I'd say Joe Kelly had a very good handle on all their power levels when he was the writer of JLA)

[TheCorpulent1]

Except for that miscalculation with the Flash's speed in that country's evacuation... ;)

[Assassin]

you make it sound like DBZ..power levels..:p

[Lackey]

Except for that miscalculation with the Flash's speed in that country's evacuation... ;)


that's why I put Johns's Flash instead of Kelly's

[TheCorpulent1]

I'd have gone with Waid's, myself. Wally did more impressive stuff under Waid than he did under Johns, in my opinion.

[The Leaguer]

I like it when they have ridiculously high power levels.

Also, I want Batman to have laser eyes.

[Lackey]

I'd have gone with Waid's, myself. Wally did more impressive stuff under Waid than he did under Johns, in my opinion.

well, I wasn't going for which writer did the most impressive stuff with the character necessarily (or else I'd have gone with Morrison's Batman), just which writer protrayed the best where their power levels/abilities should be.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, that's what I meant, too. I thought Waid handled Wally the best. Not as out there as Morrison/Millar's, not as underpowered as Johns'.

[hippie_hunter]

I like it when they have ridiculously high power levels.

Also, I want Batman to have laser eyes.

http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/20050131a.gif

[The Batman]

Superman

*Strongest hero bar none

*Hell, All Star level powerful, except remove the invulnerability to kryptonite and the added powers.

*Not as fast as Flash

Batman

*Peak Human strength

*Best Tactician in the DCU

*Best Detective in the DCU

*One of the top five fighters

*Overall, one of, if not the smartest DCU hero.

Wonder Woman

*Strongest woman in the DCU, tied with Captain Marvel for second strongest in the DCU

*Second to Batman in tactics and fighting

The Flash

*Fastest Man in the DCU. Can vibrate through walls, steal anyone's speed

Green Lantern

*Green Lantern ring is one of the most dangerous weapons in the universe

*Hal Jordan and Alan Scott are the only GL's who could possibly take Superman in a fight.

*If a GL is skilled enough, they can create kryptonite.

[Lackey]

Yeah, that's what I meant, too. I thought Waid handled Wally the best. Not as out there as Morrison/Millar's, not as underpowered as Johns'.


what can I say? I like my Flash's underpowered and my homosexuals flaming :(

[TheCorpulent1]

Big Winick fan too, huh?

[The Leaguer]

What? Winick doesn't underpower heroes.

[The Batman]

Top Five Martial Artists

1.Richard Dragon
2.Batman/Lady Shiva
3.Batgirl
4.Bronze Tiger
5.Connor Hawke

Strongest DCU heroes

1.Superman
2.Wonder Woman/Captain Marvel
3.Martian Manhunter
4.Lobo
5.Power Girl

[The Leaguer]

Top Five Martial Artists

1.Richard Dragon
2.Batman/Lady Shiva
3.Batgirl
4.Bronze Tiger
5.Connor Hawke
F*** that. Cassie 4 life!

[The Batman]

Geniuses

*Science Field: Atom, Lex Luthor, and Mr. Terrific

*Technology Field: Steel and Mr.Terrific

*Tactical Field: Batman

*Detective Field: Batman

*Overall: Batman or Mr.Terrific

[The Batman]

F*** that. Cassie 4 life!

You could always make your own list.....

[TheCorpulent1]

The top five (unpowered) martial artists for me would be:

1. Cassandra Cain/Lady Shiva
2. Bronze Tiger
3. Richard Dragon (the new one)/Conner Hawke
4. Batman
5. Black Canary (now that she's training so much)

[The Leaguer]

You could always make your own list.....
I would much rather correct other people's.

[hippie_hunter]

Top Five Martial Artists

1.Richard Dragon
2.Batman/Lady Shiva
3.Batgirl
4.Bronze Tiger
5.Connor Hawke


1. Batgirl (Cassandra Cain)/Jade Canary (Lady Shiva)
2. Bronze Tiger
3. Richard Dragon
4. Green Arrow (Connor Hawke)
5. Batman (Bruce Wayne)

Strongest DCU heroes

1.Superman
2.Wonder Woman/Captain Marvel
3.Martian Manhunter
4.Lobo
5.Power Girl

1. Zatanna/Superman (Clark Kent)
2. the Martian Manhunter (J'onn J'onzz)
3. Power Girl (Karen Starr)
4. Lobo
5. Firestorm (Jason Rusch)

[The Batman]

For a better idea of my prefered power levels:

All Star Superman
Morrison's Batman
Rucka's Wonder Woman
John's Flash
Pre Crisis Hal Jordan
JLU Martian Manhunter
Water Hand Aquaman

[Varient]

Except for that miscalculation with the Flash's speed in that country's evacuation... ;)
I liked that feat!

[The Batman]

I would much rather correct other people's.

Oh, ok...

[hippie_hunter]

Superman

*Strongest hero bar none

*Hell, All Star level powerful, except remove the invulnerability to kryptonite and the added powers.

*Not as fast as Flash

Batman

*Peak Human strength

*Best Tactician in the DCU

No Deathstroke is the DC Universe's best tactician

*Best Detective in the DCU

*One of the top five fighters

*Overall, one of, if not the smartest DCU hero.

Wonder Woman

*Strongest woman in the DCU, tied with Captain Marvel for second strongest in the DCU

No, the Martian Manhunter is the second strongest in the DC Universe after Superman.

*Second to Batman in tactics and fighting

The Flash

*Fastest Man in the DCU. Can vibrate through walls, steal anyone's speed

Green Lantern

*Green Lantern ring is one of the most dangerous weapons in the universe

*Hal Jordan and Alan Scott are the only GL's who could possibly take Superman in a fight.

Kyle Rayner is the most powerful Green Lantern considering that he has returned to being Ion.

*If a GL is skilled enough, they can create kryptonite.

Thats just dumb, kryptonite radiation but not the actual element.


Fixed :D

[hippie_hunter]

Geniuses

*Science Field: Atom, Lex Luthor, and Mr. Terrific

*Technology Field: Steel and Mr.Terrific

*Tactical Field: Batman

*Detective Field: Batman

*Overall: Batman or Mr.Terrific

Batman is definetly in there with the science and technology field. He has invented a lot of crap and is good in science.

[The Batman]

I consider kyle in a category all his own...IMO, Ion is the next step after a GL....

[The Batman]

Batman is definetly in there with the science and technology field. He has invented a lot of crap and is good in science.

I only listed who might be the absolute best in that field.

[Varient]

hmmmn. The only true bone is Wally west,..............and the silly idea that batman is a better fighter than WW.

[TheCorpulent1]

As far as GLs go, I'd have them be like dis right nyah:

1. Alan Scott
2. Hal Jordan/Kyle Rayner (as a GL, naturally, not Ion)
3. Kilowog
4. John Stewart
5. Guy Gardner

[hippie_hunter]

hmmmn. The only true bone is Wally west,..............and the silly idea that batman is a better fighter than WW.

Wonder Woman is a better warrior than Batman, just like Hawkman, but Batman is the better martial artist and strategist.

[RockSP]

I've never collected Wonder Woman's solo book so...hasn't she been a warrior(ess) for centuries? If so, how can Batman be better than her? One of the silliest moments from Kelly's run IMO was the sparring session between Bats and Wondy. How the #$% could Bats ever hope to keep up with her (unless she was just "playing" with him)?

[Lackey]

Wonder Woman is a better warrior than Batman, just like Hawkman, but Batman is the better martial artist and strategist.


I disagree.

[TheCorpulent1]

I think Batman would be a better fighter than Wonder Woman because it's all he has. He can't just throw someone into orbit if he can't outfight them, so he works harder to make sure he can outfight almost anyone. Plus, Wonder Woman hasn't trained in the same martial arts Batman has. Studying Greek forms of fighting for centuries doesn't automatically make her better than Batman if the forms Batman knows are just more effective. A master of judo could probably throw a master of Greek wrestling around pretty easily, for example.

That said, Wonder Woman should still be the second-best fighter on the League. Her fighting skills should be enough to make up for whatever strength differential there is between her and Supes, so that a fight between the two of them would basically be an even match. That's my take on it, anyway.

[Lackey]

I think Batman would be a better fighter than Wonder Woman because it's all he has. He can't just throw someone into orbit if he can't outfight them, so he works harder to make sure he can outfight almost anyone. Plus, Wonder Woman hasn't trained in the same martial arts Batman has. Studying Greek forms of fighting for centuries doesn't automatically make her better than Batman if the forms Batman knows are just more effective. A master of judo could probably throw a master of Greek wrestling around pretty easily, for example.

That said, Wonder Woman should still be the second-best fighter on the League. Her fighting skills should be enough to make up for whatever strength differential there is between her and Supes, so that a fight between the two of them would basically be an even match. That's my take on it, anyway.

I'd agree with you if Batman was the best fighter in the DCU (similarly to Flash being the fastest), but he's not...so it's not all he has because he doesn't even have that.

Also, it's not like all she knows is ancient combat...although that is a plus on her side, Amazons practice forms of ancient hand-to-hand combat that are completely lost to the outside world. She is proficient in many forms of modern hand-to-hand combat including extra-terrestrial forms. She has trained since she was a small child and has proven the best amongst an entire race of warriors. Other heroes including Batman have taken upon themselves to train with her.

[Vanguard07]

You know what always kinda bugged me in terms of Power levels? Orion's strength.
He supposedly had the strength of Darkseid and has fought Darkseid in hand to hand and beaten him but he's listed as being weaker than superman and roughly equal to Wonder Woman.
Maybe you guys disagree but to me that just plain doesnt seem right. He should be stronger than Superman.

[Anubis]

I was just about to comment on Orion. He should be far stronger than Superman. Expecially without the Mother Box to keep him in line. And Darkseid should be at Pre Crisis levels again.

[Arkady Rossovich]

Strength

Top three in order is..Superman,Wonder Woman and Captian Marvel.Power Girl distant 4th.

Speed

Hard choice,The Flash should be the fastest.Superman barely comes in 2nd.

[TheCorpulent1]

You know what always kinda bugged me in terms of Power levels? Orion's strength.
He supposedly had the strength of Darkseid and has fought Darkseid in hand to hand and beaten him but he's listed as being weaker than superman and roughly equal to Wonder Woman.
Maybe you guys disagree but to me that just plain doesnt seem right. He should be stronger than Superman.
I agree completely. He also shouldn't be an idiot, like he was when he and Barda joined the JLA in preparation for Mageddon's attack. When the JLA fought General Eiling, the new Shaggy Man, Orion got tossed aside like a little girl. His dog managed to hold Eiling off longer than he did. :o

[batnkevlar]

Superman should be significantly slower than Flash...

No way Connor Hawke should be better at fighting than Batman...

Uh, Mr. Terrific and Batman should be two of the smartest (overall) guys in the world, but Batman in more tactical, and Terrific on more science...

[Spike_x1]

The technologically smartest human on the DCU's earth should be Emil Hamilton. Before being screwed into Ruin, Hamilton came up with some of the most brilliant machines ever, putting Steel and Batman's gizmos to shame.

All in his crappy apartment/lab. :eek:

And I agree with the above posters about Orion too.

[Kenda Man]

What power level should Black Adam be in? Would he be considered equal to Captain Marvel's strength even though he gets his powers from other deities? I forget what issue it was, but it was in the past months in Action Comics, where Superman fought Black Adam briefly. I thought that was great and I really think Captain Marvel should be as close to superman's power level as possible, with the exception of heat vision and the few other abilities superman has.

I think I read it awhile ago on the forums someone mentioned a comparison of Superman and Captain MArvel when each first appeared and their similarities. I think its cool Superman has krypto as a pet, Captain MArvel with Hoppy the the Bunny, Superman having a family;Supergirl, powergirl, MArvel having Mary, Uncle Marvel, and Marvel Jr. Lex once having hair now bald, and Dr. Sivana being a bald. Kingdom Come also showed that Captain MArvel can go toe to toe with Superman.

I thought the Justice League Unlimited episode was a good depiction of Captain Marvel, but no way should they have made Superman wail away on Marvel and what bugged me most was that Captain Marvel bruised eye from superman. I am grateful though it showed Marvel could take superman's punch, which would make any human's head instantly explode. I will give credit where credit is due in that Superman pretty much became the mold for all other super heros, but Marvel should be up there too. Sorry for ranting about Captain Marvel and Superman.

[Anubis]

Thats okay. You make a good point. The big red Cheese should be very close to Supes in strength. Possibly a little stronger than Wonder Woman.

[CAPT. MARVEL]

Basically, I like everyone de-powered. i.e. I like Superman to be like the old Fleischer cartoons, but I also feel like he should be the strongest and greatest hero in the DCU, so everyone else would have to be de-powered as well.

[Anubis]

:down Weak sauce man.

[drastic_quench]

My thoughts on what Superman's fighting style/ability should be:

Superman fights like a big ole' country hoss. Farmboy whose never had a boxing lesson, but's tough as hell anyhow. He throws big ugly haymakers. That overhand double axe handle blow he killed Doomsday with? Yeah, just like that. He's not fluid. It's not pretty. He's not particularly flexible. He moves and fights like John Wayne with a sore back - and heat vision is his six-shooter.

Of course he gets away with the slop because he's so strong and fast. His only "training" is his years of on the job experience.

[Anubis]

Nice :up:

[Marvin]

Actually, that was excellent!

[Spike_x1]

I like Superman's power level to be what it was in the S:TAS episode "The Prometheon," where he could shift the orbit of an asteroid with great amount of effort and also managed to turn the direction that a cruise ship was pointing with a few grunts-worth of effort.

That's more along the lines of the power level he was at in the comics at the time, and it's the one that I'm most comfortable with.

[CAPT. MARVEL]

:down Weak sauce man.
lol yea its not really workable.

[Batmanx]

Power Levels:
1. Superman= 100 thousands PLUS tons...
2.WonderWoman= 100 thousands PLUS tons..
3.SuperGirl= 100 thousands tons MAX..
4.Martain ManHunter/Captain Marvel= 95 thousands tons/Remember C.M. have the strength of HERCULES & W.W. is stronger than HRECULES by far.(For those who didn't know).PLUS,,C.M. have to share his strenght w/ M.M. & C.M.Jr..So C.M. power level comes dn.
5.PowerGirl , Donna Troy , MaryMarvel , CaptainMarvel Jr.= Around tha same level near C.M..
6.WonderGirl , StarFire..

Just remember this is RAW POWER/FIST 2 FIST/SMACK DOWN...

[RockSP]

DC characters are tooooo strong, IMO. One guy liftingTHOUSANDS of tons??!!:confused: :eek: :rolleyes:

[Lackey]

DC characters are tooooo strong, IMO. One guy liftingTHOUSANDS of tons??!!:confused: :eek: :rolleyes:


the Hulk can do that

[boywondernerdDC]

yes he can

[RockSP]

Haven't kept up with the Hulk in years, but back when I did he was in the "class 100" range...

[marcofthebeast]

I would really like Captain Marvel At the same strength and speed as Superman. I can wait to see what they are doing with in the trails of shazam. He seems like he's going to be the father of the 10th age of magic.

[The Leaguer]

A lot of guys at Marvel lift thousands of tons. Why not make fun of DC heroes for having silly, brightly-colored outfits, too?

[RockSP]

A lot of guys at Marvel lift thousands of tons. Why not make fun of DC heroes for having silly, brightly-colored outfits, too?

Really? Most of the stronger ones are usually 75 to 100 tons. I know the Hulk gets stronger the madder he gets but that's not the case with most of them.

Anyway, you seem to be taking my statement a little to personal. I read comics from DC/Marvel/Image/Darkhorse/whateverotherindependentbookthatcatchesmy interest. So if you think I'm some so called "marvel zombie" you are quite mistaken.

I wasn't "making fun" of DC heroes. And even if I was...I don't think I could hurt their feelings since they, y'know...aren't real.

[The Leaguer]

How was I taking it personal? I responded to something you said with two sentences. If that makes it personal, then I guess you're taking it too personal, too, right?

[RockSP]

Well jumping to "defend" DC heroes with a snarky comment about costumes seemed to me as if you thought I was somehow "downing" DC's heroes. If I "misread" it...my bad.

Anywho it's no secret that DC's superstrong characters are for the most part waay stronger than Marvels. In my opinion thousands of tons is excessive...Marvel or DC.

[BrianWilly]

Hmm...interesting question...I've never really thought about it. I guess I kinda like most people as the power level that they are now, at the present. Sometimes Batman's omnipotence gets annoying, I have to say, but it has its place too. As I've seen it, ridiculous power levels are much less of a problem in the DCU than it would be elsewhere, and even elsewhere there are ways to write it well.

I've never collected Wonder Woman's solo book so...hasn't she been a warrior(ess) for centuries? If so, how can Batman be better than her? One of the silliest moments from Kelly's run IMO was the sparring session between Bats and Wondy. How the #$% could Bats ever hope to keep up with her (unless she was just "playing" with him)?Contrary to popular belief, post-Crisis Wonder Woman -- and actually pre-Crisis, too, as far as I know -- is not hundreds of years old; she's merely as old as she looks, which is 29. She's actually younger than Batman, and has had less time than he to train.

Obviously, I agree that Batman would never, ever, ever win Wonder Woman in any physical contest because she's just too much stronger and faster than he is, but I could see him being a better martial artist than she is, or at least being her equal. Being strong isn't the same thing as being a skilled fighter. Now Wonder Woman comes from a martial culture which means she's been holding a sword pretty much right a bit after she could walk...but it's been shown that, as a child, she was actually rather flighty (literally) and would rather have been playing instead of training, especially since even as a child she was already superstrong and close to invulnerable. Compare that to Batman, who's been nigh-clinically obsessed with bettering himself physically since he was eight years old.

[Lackey]

Contrary to popular belief, post-Crisis Wonder Woman -- and actually pre-Crisis, too, as far as I know -- is not hundreds of years old;


that popular belief comes from the 70's TV show.

[Vanguard07]

Haven't kept up with the Hulk in years, but back when I did he was in the "class 100" range...

Actually I dont think there's ever been a character in Marvel who can lift a maximum of 100 tons. If you look closely you'll notice that the highest class is 100+ tons. Meaning more than 100 tons.
Basically Marvel just stops counting after 100 tons cause what the hell's the point? basically Hulk if you wanna know what people like the hulk or thor can lift the answer is gonna be "what you got?"

[Anubis]

The problem is with Marvel's class system. Like Vanguard said, they stop at 100+, which means that they lift over a hundred tons. Which is why Hulk was able to lift billions of tons. And Thor was able to lift the Midgaurd Serpent which was larger than the entire planet. They aren't the only ones. I've seen Thing lift thousands of tons, WOnderman, Iron Man. The problem is, a lot of people don't really know how much s**t weighs. I'd have to say that most of the people that fall in the 75-100 class range in Marvel are far stronger than that number appears. Thats why I perfur DC's point of view on the thing. Don't bother with a class system. Let the feats speak for how strong they are.

[Vanguard07]

Agreed. I've long ago learned to ignore the class ratings anyway. Even when the ratings arent outright wrong (ie rating Wolverine as agile as Spiderman) it's only a matter of time where the characters outdo their rankings. Spiderman's supported a 5 story building on his back once for example. I'm pretty sure most 5-story buildings weigh more than 10 tons.

[Anubis]

Right! They're up there in the freakin hundreds.

[Vanguard07]

Exactly. Which just goes to show that "official" power ratings/classes are utter crap.

[TheCorpulent1]

To be fair, the ranking system goes by how much a person can press, which means lifting straight up with the arms. Anyone can support a whole lot more weight on their back than they can lift straight up because they're using the much more powerful leg muscles to support most of the weight.

But Marvel's ranking system was shot to hell long before that example. Spider-Man's lifted subway cars over his head, which usually weigh in excess of 40 tons. The Thing should not be able to spar with the Hulk as well as he does if he's only at class 85 and the Hulk is well over class 100, for another example. Marvel's characters are as strong or as weak as they need to be in a given situation. Thor, Hercules, Gladiator, and others tend to get weakened a lot of the time while Colossus, the Thing, and other not-quite-class 100 characters get strengthened, usually for no reason.

[kiuju2k]

1. Cassandra Cain/Lady Shiva
2. Bronze Tiger
3. Richard Dragon (the new one)/Conner Hawke
4. Batman
5. Black Canary (now that she's training so much)Nightwing

Funny corp i don' t see nightwing anywhere. I'd put him above canary at least. Maybe I would put conner hawke with nightwing. Training by shiva or not nightwing.

[Anubis]

Nah, I don't think he's above Canary.

[3dman27]

The top five (unpowered) martial artists for me would be:

1. Cassandra Cain/Lady Shiva
2. Bronze Tiger
3. Richard Dragon (the new one)/Conner Hawke
4. Batman
5. Black Canary (now that she's training so much)
what about JUDOMASTER?

[The Question]

Really, I wouldn't say that there's a top five. Out of all the people in the DCU, probably a top several hundred. Maybe more. And of all the featured characters, maybe a list of 20.

[Vanguard07]

I say Karate Kid is the best fighter in DC. Except that he's not born yet in DC continuity. Or he's been retconned out of existence. I dunno. Either way the original Karate Kid would own all of their asses at once. Even if he doesnt exist.

[Lackey]

I guess you're not reading Mark Waid's League of Super Heroes? it's really good

[Spike_x1]

Funny corp i don' t see nightwing anywhere. I'd put him above canary at least. Maybe I would put conner hawke with nightwing. Training by shiva or not nightwing.I wouldn't put Nightwing up there for martial arts. He was completely destroyed by Bane very easily a number of years ago.

If the category were gymnastics, then Nightwing would definitely by way up on the list.

[kiuju2k]

I wouldn't put Nightwing up there for martial arts. He was completely destroyed by Bane very easily a number of years ago.

If the category were gymnastics, then Nightwing would definitely by way up on the list.

Hm... Did that happen during his stint as batman would it? I can't recall that. I don't think that would be the case nowadays for that matter.

[TheCorpulent1]

I guess you're not reading Mark Waid's League of Super Heroes? it's really good
Of course he's not. Even I'm not reading Waid's League of Super Heroes, and I defy you to prove that you are, liar. :p

[Anubis]

The Douche with the teddy bear strikes again.

[TheCorpulent1]

You, sir, are the douche! :mad:
what about JUDOMASTER?
I don't even know who that is. I think I've heard the name twice in passing in my entire life. :(
Funny corp i don' t see nightwing anywhere. I'd put him above canary at least. Maybe I would put conner hawke with nightwing. Training by shiva or not nightwing.
If you think Nightwing's better than Canary, let alone up there with Connor Hawke, I'm afraid I have to laugh at you. Maybe it's because I've been reading Nightwing mostly under Devin Grayson, but I've never gotten the idea that he's an especially good fighter. Excellent acrobat and probably the most agile non-meta in the DC universe, but certainly not in there with the best fighters.

[Anubis]

You, sir, are the douche! :mad:



Yeah, well, takes one to know one. I'm new car smell.

[TheCorpulent1]

Just as long as you know you're one, too.

[Wargod]

Geniuses

*Science Field: Atom, Lex Luthor, and Mr. Terrific

*Technology Field: Steel and Mr.Terrific

*Tactical Field: Batman

*Detective Field: Batman

*Overall: Batman or Mr.Terrific

IMO Lex Luthor also is a genius in technology field.

[TheCorpulent1]

He does seem to build a lot of stuff. Although he's apparently employing the new Toyman to build stuff for him now, so I don't know. Maybe he's not as good an engineer as we think.

[Wargod]

He does seem to build a lot of stuff. Although he's apparently employing the new Toyman to build stuff for him now, so I don't know. Maybe he's not as good an engineer as we think.

In pre crisis he used to build all sort of stuffs...

[The Question]

He does seem to build a lot of stuff. Although he's apparently employing the new Toyman to build stuff for him now, so I don't know. Maybe he's not as good an engineer as we think.



Well, the new Toyman looks robotic to me. I'm guessing that Lex is using him as an asistant. You know, stuff like "Toyman, hand me the laser scalple" or "Toyman, clean out the interrogantion rooms."

[batnkevlar]

Well, the new Toyman looks robotic to me. I'm guessing that Lex is using him as an asistant. You know, stuff like "Toyman, hand me the laser scalple" or "Toyman, clean out the interrogantion rooms."

Or "Toyman, bend over. I need to find what makes you tick."

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, the new Toyman looks robotic to me. I'm guessing that Lex is using him as an asistant. You know, stuff like "Toyman, hand me the laser scalple" or "Toyman, clean out the interrogantion rooms."
It looked to me like Toyman built the apparatus that allowed Lex to pull the Kryptonite heart out of Metallo in the last issue. Clearly Lex didn't design it as a life-size replica of the Operation board. He's also using Toyman's little toy minions as fodder against the heroes.

[kiuju2k]

If you think Nightwing's better than Canary, let alone up there with Connor Hawke, I'm afraid I have to laugh at you. Maybe it's because I've been reading Nightwing mostly under Devin Grayson, but I've never gotten the idea that he's an especially good fighter. Excellent acrobat and probably the most agile non-meta in the DC universe, but certainly not in there with the best fighters.


No point in arguing with you. I always lose somehow someway. Anyway i've been reading nightwing since his solo series started and hes done alot of things i've seen that are impressive yeah ok maybe not a whole mess of martial arts.... look the..... oh nevermind.

respect nightwing!!!

[TheCorpulent1]

I do. It would help if his comic book were readable still, but Jones has dashed any hope of that. So I just remember the good times and look forward to whenever Outsiders starts making sense again. :)

[The Question]

It looked to me like Toyman built the apparatus that allowed Lex to pull the Kryptonite heart out of Metallo in the last issue. Clearly Lex didn't design it as a life-size replica of the Operation board. He's also using Toyman's little toy minions as fodder against the heroes.


Well, those could simply have been things that Lex didn't have time to do. I mean, even if you're a genius, building complex electronic devices takes a very long time. And, Lex could have designed some of these devices and Toyman added his own flair to them.

[kiuju2k]

You started on grayson so I guess that right there would be a problem. Then again going back and reading dixon stuff won't fix the fact that they made a dead guy come back and be better then him. Damnit.

[Anubis]

Just like the heroes, the villains delegate stuff out when it comes to science. Lex is a smart man. And a good inventor, but sometimes, he needs help. Just like Batman, or Mr. Terrific, or Dr. Savana, or any other super smart dude out there. That's why you can't really pin down who is the smartest. Which is really the best way to go if you ask me. Promotes Unity.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, those could simply have been things that Lex didn't have time to do. I mean, even if you're a genius, building complex electronic devices takes a very long time. And, Lex could have designed some of these devices and Toyman added his own flair to them.
It's possible. What crazy Twilight Zone reality do you see Lex actually choosing to create a sidekick as annoying and goofy as the new Toyman to help himself, though?

[Anubis]

I don't see why people think he's a robot. He could just be a midget with a dummy mask on.

[TheCorpulent1]

He could also be an infant with a beard. What's your point?

[Anubis]

That's just crazy talk, an infant with a beard :rolleyes: ........why bother with a beard if nobody can see it? Tell me that genius? A baby with a deathstroke fetish? I think not. :o

Anyway, people keep referring to him as some sort of robot like that thing that helps out Arcade over at Marvel. (I can understand how people would connect the two.) And I'm saying that it's more likely just a new Toyman who happens to be Vertically challenged.

[The Question]

It's possible. What crazy Twilight Zone reality do you see Lex actually choosing to create a sidekick as annoying and goofy as the new Toyman to help himself, though?

What would make more sense is that Winslow Schott made the robot, and Luthor bought it to do stuff for him.

That's just crazy talk, an infant with a beard :rolleyes: ........why bother with a beard if nobody can see it? Tell me that genius? A baby with a deathstroke fetish? I think not. :o

Anyway, people keep referring to him as some sort of robot like that thing that helps out Arcade over at Marvel. (I can understand how people would connect the two.) And I'm saying that it's more likely just a new Toyman who happens to be Vertically challenged.

Well, the fact that his skin looks metalic, and he has a large metal key sticking out of his back, leads one to believe that he is an artificial life form.

[Spike_x1]

Jeeze, how many Toymen does DC need? :confused:

[TheCorpulent1]

The last one was a good guy so he doesn't count. :mad:
That's just crazy talk, an infant with a beard ........why bother with a beard if nobody can see it?
What, are you serious? One does not have a beard to show it off. One has a beard because it's the right thing to do. :o
What would make more sense is that Winslow Schott made the robot, and Luthor bought it to do stuff for him.
But Luthor could build his own robot. Why debase himself so much as to buy some secondhand robot off Schott? Luthor would spit on Schott's hunk of crap and then make a robot specifically designed to break Schott's and piss on it.

[Spike_x1]

That's not exactly Lex's specialty though. Robots of death are Schott's specialty, however. :mad:The last one was a good guy so he doesn't count. :mad:But they're using Jack Nimble in Justice, the little japanese kid in Batman/Superman, this new schmuck in Superman, and Schott is nowhere to be seen (supposedly given up crime). WTF? That's just overboard on the Toymen. I'm still wondering why the kid in B/S even adopted the alias of "Toyman." What was the point of that, from a writing perspective, I mean?

[TheCorpulent1]

Justice doesn't count for anything, since it's out of continuity.

The Batman/Superman stuff is way back relative to the current, OYL Superman issues. Maybe the new Toyman is Schott reincarnated as a little robot toy and he killed the Asian kid for taking his name.

I have no idea why the kid took the name Toyman. It probably has something to do with Jeph Loeb having really bad ideas more often than not now, though.

Finally, whether it's Lex's specialty or not, you know he thinks he can build one better than anybody else.

[War Lord]

I've never collected Wonder Woman's solo book so...hasn't she been a warrior(ess) for centuries? If so, how can Batman be better than her? One of the silliest moments from Kelly's run IMO was the sparring session between Bats and Wondy. How the #$% could Bats ever hope to keep up with her (unless she was just "playing" with him)?

A person can be a better fighter, skillwise, but still lose against somebody else because the opponent was better able to take a hit or was simply much stronger.

[War Lord]

He does seem to build a lot of stuff. Although he's apparently employing the new Toyman to build stuff for him now, so I don't know. Maybe he's not as good an engineer as we think.

Not necessarily. If you are of limited time, to do things yourself takes time from everything else, so you have to choose which things to focus on. If designing new technologies is less important than other things, it's better to hire somebody else to develop new technologies so you can focus on your priorities.

[3dman27]

I don't even know who that is. I think I've heard the name twice in passing in my entire life. :(


there's an article about him on wikipedia.org

[3dman27]

judomaster was one of the charlton action heroes dc bought he was sgt rip jagger a ww2 soldider who after saving a partisans life was trained in judo[which would most likely be depicted as NINJITSU nowadays] he worked as a costumed hero though oddly enough his costume resembled the japanese flag
after dc bought him he was used pre crisis as a member of the all star squadron and post crisis as a member of the LAW,LIVING ASSAULT WEAPONS team

[Spike_x1]

Justice doesn't count for anything, since it's out of continuity.I know it's not in continuity, but it's still published by DC, and my original question was...Jeeze, how many Toymen does DC need? :confused::mad:

[The Question]

Finally, whether it's Lex's specialty or not, you know he thinks he can build one better than anybody else.


True. But then, it's very possible that he simply didn't have time. I mean, he seems to have been pretty busy in the year that we skipped, and building a robot like that would take months by itself, if not longer.

[drastic_quench]

Well at the end of this arc he end's up with a giant Kryptonian crystal robot.

[Bullseye]

Superman

*Strongest hero bar none

*Hell, All Star level powerful, except remove the invulnerability to kryptonite and the added powers.

*Not as fast as Flash

Batman

*Peak Human strength

*Best Tactician in the DCU

*Best Detective in the DCU

*One of the top five fighters

*Overall, one of, if not the smartest DCU hero.

Wonder Woman

*Strongest woman in the DCU, tied with Captain Marvel for second strongest in the DCU

*Second to Batman in tactics and fighting

The Flash

*Fastest Man in the DCU. Can vibrate through walls, steal anyone's speed

Green Lantern

*Green Lantern ring is one of the most dangerous weapons in the universe

*Hal Jordan and Alan Scott are the only GL's who could possibly take Superman in a fight.

*If a GL is skilled enough, they can create kryptonite.

That's just about the same way I would view their power levels.

[Zeu]

Superman:
-MoS power Levels
-Lift an aircraft carrier at his absolute best
-Supersenses to hear/see everything in Metropolis but not what´s going on in China
- mach 10 speed

Wonder Woman
- Close to Superman´s power levels but has to use the M.A. fighting skills to breach the gap

Batman (stealth, never seen in public, not even at JLA gatherings)
- Best detective in the world (forensics expert, criminal psychology, chemistry)
- Briliantr tactician
- mastered 10 fighting styles that combined into his own stealth style

MM
Swamp Thing´s level of strenght
Telepathy, intangibility, etc.

Flash
Speed Mach 50

Green Lantern
The most powerful weapon in the universe should fit its name. Its full charge can obliterate a planet. Used in combat it could contain the whole JLA but the attacks would deplete the ring in 12 hours

[Vanguard07]

I'm constantly annoyed by how much Orion's been depowered recently. Originally he was equal in physical prowess to Darkseid which would make him a hell of a lot stronger than Superman.

Now he's considered to be a third tier heavy hitter. Weaker than wonderwoman. Honestly it disgusts me.

[Silicon Surfer]

When he was originally introduced in the Silver Age Orion was far weaker than Superman. Returning him to a lower strength level is simply putting him back the way he was intended. If he's anywhere near WW level then he is still a lot stronger than he was originally.

[Arkady Rossovich]

Superman

I would actually increase Superman`s powers,in all fields.Near Pre-Crisis levels.He would basically be strong enough to move asteroids or comets.If he really tried,then he could move small planets.He would be extremly fast,almost as fast as Flash.Superman`s hearing and sight would extend over a mile,but if he really wanted to,he could hear things on other continents.Superman would also be able to fly through space,not breathe,hold his breath,how long?Give or take 6 hours..Like in Pre-Crisis cartoons and comics.

Wonder Woman

The best fighter on earth,she is a amazon fighter.Not even Batman can challange her,her golden lasso is nearly unbreakable.Only Superman can break it,due to her abilities to deflect bullets.If Superman would to fire heat vision blasts at her,she could actually reflect them with her bracelets.Her strength would be near Superman`s.

The Flash

The fastest man alive...no,the fastest being to had ever lived.Flash is even faster than Superman,and can run faster than light if he really wanted to.Being able to vibrate his molecules,nearly nothing can contain him.Instant reaction,and agility.

Batman

Perhaps the smarest man on earth,he uses this smarts to actually predict what his opponent will do next.Not peak strength,but all his abilities are slightly more than what a normal human can achive.Batman knows how to read people,therefore he can scare anyone with just a glance.

Green Lantern

Yes,the most powerful weapon in the universe,but Superman is one of the few who can break through it,if he chosed to.The Lantern ring can protect the wearer from high explosions,if Hal Jordan was to weild the ring,he could surive a nuclear blast.Any other Lantern could not do this feat.

Captian Marvel

Nearly as strong as Superman,Marvel can move asteroids,but he uses a decent amount of strength to do so.His Shazam lightning bolts are the only power that rivals the Lantern ring.

I did this already,but its fun to do it again.

[Batmanx]

The Strongest in D.C. Heroes:

1. Superman
2.Wonder Woman/Captain Marvel
3.Supergirl/Lobo/Martain ManHunter
4.Powergirl
5.Wonder Woman 2(Donna)/Aguaman/Barda/Marvel Family
6.StarFire
7. Wondergirl/Powerboy