when was it published that Steve R. was'nt the first captain america?

[GoldenAgeHero]

do you guys know what year this was published in? and and is there any TBP where i can read up on this? how would you rate it?

[GoldenAgeHero]

anyone?

[TheCorpulent1]

The Truth mini-series. I'm pretty sure there's a TPB, since it won awards and critical acclaim and stuff. Be prepared, though; the art is not what you'd expect.

[rigel7soldiers]

Technically, the first Cap was the colonial one, who also hapened to be named Steven Rogers. Is 1602 even sort of in continuity? If so, then he was the first Captain America, in a way, in 1602.

[TheCorpulent1]

Where was it printed that there was a colonial Captain America? :confused:

1602 was in continuity, but the timeline was erased and set back to the normal timeline. So in the current timeline, there never was a 1602 Cap.

[Anubis]

Probally around 2001 or so.

[rigel7soldiers]

Where was it printed that there was a colonial Captain America? :confused:

1602 was in continuity, but the timeline was erased and set back to the normal timeline. So in the current timeline, there never was a 1602 Cap.

Iin the Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty mini. I read that comic, but thet only thig I remember about it at this point is the fact of colonial Cap.

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh, I never read that one. I may have to hunt it down now.

[GoldenAgeHero]

why in the world would marvel put 1602 in contunuity? wouldnt that mess up the entire future timeline.

whats up with the art in the book corp? it sucks doesnt it?

[rigel7soldiers]

I wouldn't say that it sucks, it just doesn't sync up with the Cover art all that well.

[Anubis]

I wouldn't say it sucks, it just doesn't fit the storyline. It does, however, fit the time in which it takes place. A bit too sunny looking for the disturbing s**t thats going down in it.

[TheCorpulent1]

It's by Kyle Baker. He's not what I would've first thought of for the book's subject matter, but his art turned out to fit pretty well, in my opinion. Judge for yourself whether it's good or not:

#1 preview:
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/90125056166.1.GIF
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/90125056166.1.P1.GIF
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/90125056166.1.P2.GIF
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/90125056166.1.P3.GIF

#2 preview:
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/90125056166.2.GIF
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/90125056166.2.P1.GIF
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/90125056166.2.P2.GIF
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/pages/90125056166.2.P3.GIF

[WOLVERINE25TH]

I didn't care fer th' art at all. I could respect th' story, but I thought it kinda tainted Cap's character a bit.

[TheCorpulent1]

Why? Cap had absolutely nothing to do with it and he felt awful about it when he found out.

[GoldenAgeHero]

wow looking at the preveiw pages, looks like a kid drew them.

[ampersand]

The art in truth is great. I love the way it captures the time.

[rigel7soldiers]

wow looking at the preveiw pages, looks like a kid drew them.

I like Kyle Baker. Didn't he win an Eisner for Plastic Man?

[Anubis]

Now that I look back on it, it does have a certain symbolism going on. This old school, rather cartoony looking art kinda shows that things weren't all that nice and decent back then. That even though people might have seen things in a better light when looking back on it, there was still some seriously horrible things going on at the time.

As far as the story goes, I thought it was good. Reminded me of that movie Miss Evers boys which dealt with the Tuskegee experiment in which the government gave a bunch of black men syphilis just to see what would happen. I read it at the Library, but I think it's one of those books you should own. Defiantly gonna pick that up one of these days.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

'Cause Cap's been able to avoid th' taint of this country's ****ty history no matter how many decades he's been around or what's happened. Now, suddenly, his legacy has this stench on it. Realistic, I suppose, but just didn't sit right with me.

Cap should be above th' **** that plagues this nation. A symbol of what this country SHOULD be, instead of th' crap we get.

[Anubis]

'Cause Cap's been able to avoid th' taint of this country's ****ty history no matter how many decades he's been around or what's happened. Now, suddenly, his legacy has this stench on it. Realistic, I suppose, but just didn't sit right with me.

Cap should be above th' **** that plagues this nation. A symbol of what this country SHOULD be, instead of th' crap we get.

And Cap is, but that doesn't mean that the people that were in charge of the super soldier program weren't amoral A-holes that would test out the stuff on colored soldiers before giving it to a blond haired blue-eyed kid. Doesn't take away from Cap. He wasn't like, "I ain't taking that stuff until you test it on somebody else." Because Cap wouldn't do that. Which is why he was so pissed when he found out what they did. Cap's still Cap. The story just shows further proof that everything wasn't as clean and wholesome as some people would like to remember it.

[yenaled]

I love Kyle Baker, never heard of this before so will pick it up.

[GoldenAgeHero]

Now that I look back on it, it does have a certain symbolism going on. This old school, rather cartoony looking art kinda shows that things weren't all that nice and decent back then. That even though people might have seen things in a better light when looking back on it, there was still some seriously horrible things going on at the time.

As far as the story goes, I thought it was good. Reminded me of that movie Miss Evers boys which dealt with the Tuskegee experiment in which the government gave a bunch of black men syphilis just to see what would happen. I read it at the Library, but I think it's one of those books you should own. Defiantly gonna pick that up one of these days.

thats true? if it is then damn.

[Anubis]

Yeah, that was a true story. Well, they simply withheld treatment just to see what would happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_experiment

http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/od/tuskegee/time.htm

[GoldenAgeHero]

Yeah, that was a true story. Well, they simply withheld treatment just to see what would happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_experiment

http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/od/tuskegee/time.htm

damn thats really ****ed up. now i can see the super solider program on the afican americans more realistically. i wonder what else secrets they're hiding.

[The Question]

I think it was recently revealed that the government sprayed diseases like Ebola in small amounts over towns to see what would happen to the people who caught it. 'Course, I might be wrong.

[Themanofbat]

I loved tha art in this awesome mini... it really captures the mood of the story.

Having said that, this type of art in another storyline would be terrible.

:)

[TheCorpulent1]

As someone mentioned, Baker won an Eisner for his art in Plastic Man. I think all the fuss over Plastic Man was that it recaptured the goofy, fun atmosphere of the original Plastic Man stories, though, so it's kind of similar to Truth in that sense.

Anyway, regardless of Baker's stylistic choices, his storytelling ability is excellent. Truth flowed perfectly and worked on pretty much all artistic fronts for me.

[ShadowBoxing]

Yeah, that was a true story. Well, they simply withheld treatment just to see what would happen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_experiment

http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/od/tuskegee/time.htmUnfortunately when the experiment started the country felt differently about its African American citizens I am sorry to say:(

[GNR]

I saw this at my store.Might pick it up.

[Darthphere]

This colonial Captain America wouldnt be confused with the Spirit of 76 would it?

[KALEL114]

1940s - Operation: Rebirth

In current Marvel Universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Universe) history, Steven Rogers was a scrawny American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) fine arts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_arts) student specializing in illustration in the early 1940s before America's entry into World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II). He was disturbed by the rise of the Third Reich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Reich) enough to attempt to enlist only to be rejected due to his poor constitution. By chance, a US Army officer looking for test subjects for a top secret defense research project offered Rogers an alternate way to serve his country. This project, Operation: Rebirth, consisted of developing a means to create physically superior soldiers and Rogers was deemed ideal.
Rogers agreed to volunteer for the research and after a rigorous physical and combat training and selection process, was chosen as the first human test subject for a chemical formula that was termed the Super-Soldier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersoldier) Serum, developed by the scientist Dr. Emil Erskine (who was code-named "Dr. Reinstein").
However, it was revealed years later that Rogers was not the first to be given the Super-Soldier formula. While Rogers was still being assessed, some military members of the project felt that a non-soldier was not the right candidate and secretly gave Erskine's incomplete formula to Clinton McIntyre. However, this made McIntyre violently insane, and he had to be subdued and placed in cold storage. The criminal organization AIM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Idea_Mechanics) would later revive McIntyre as the homicidal Protocide (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Protocide&action=edit). (Captain America Annual, 2000).
A beta version of the formula was given to Isaiah Bradley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_Bradley), who became the only survivor of a group of African-American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American) soldiers that "Reinstein" and the military experimented on in 1942. After the last two members of his group were killed, Bradley stole the costume meant for Rogers and wore it on a suicide mission to destroy the Nazi super-soldier effort at a German concentration camp. Bradley was captured, but eventually rescued and court martialed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_martial). He was imprisoned for 17 years in Leavenworth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Disciplinary_Barracks) until he was pardoned by President Eisenhower (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower). By the time of his release, the long-term effects of the formula turned Bradley into a hulking, sterile giant with the mentality of a 7-year-old. Rogers would not find out about Bradley until decades later (Truth: Red, White and Black, 2003). The current Patriot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_%28comics%29), a member of the Young Avengers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Avengers), has been revealed to be the grandson of Isaiah Bradley.

[Vartha]

Well, I remember that it being mentioned quite a few times that Steve R wasn't the 1st to be tested on, just the 1st who turned out the best. Don't recall what issues tho.
Other than any What if type storys, that is the only Captain America. The others are like Captain Liberty or something to that effect.

[Varient]

(smiling at your avatar - Props)

Captain America,... "The Truth" rubbed too many fan boys the wrong way,....

I guess I could sympathize,.. I had a similar reaction to the retcon of Gwen-****-Stacy,..... but there is a major diff between the two:

There is evidence that this was JUST how they would've done it back then,.. sorry to say if you were not white,.. a lot of stuff could happen to you and it was "okay"

No heat,.. it was a "different time" back then.

[Caliber]

(smiling at your avatar - Props)

Captain America,... "The Truth" rubbed too many fan boys the wrong way,....

I guess I could sympathize,.. I had a similar reaction to the retcon of Gwen-****-Stacy,..... but there is a major diff between the two:

There is evidence that this was JUST how they would've done it back then,.. sorry to say if you were not white,.. a lot of stuff could happen to you and it was "okay"

No heat,.. it was a "different time" back then.

It should have rubbed them wrong because it shows another side of the flag waving hero story.

[The Question]

Which the flag waving hero had nothing to do with. He didn't learn about Isiah until decades later. It doesn't ruin Cap's character at all. It does make the government look like *******s, but really, when has any government in the history of the world not been full of *******s?

[Varient]

It should have rubbed them wrong because it shows another side of the flag waving hero story.

So,... what should they do? remain in denial? claim it's a bad retcon?

I once listened to a confused young man tell me that EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED from slavery to today was exaggerated.
That ANY proof provided were "Isolated cases".
That the Civil Rights Movement wasn't required,.. that if Blacks and other Minorities had just waited another 100 years or so it would be better for them in the end.

I dare say that if I'd still been a teen,.. I'da popped him one for being stuck on stupid.

[rigel7soldiers]

This colonial Captain America wouldnt be confused with the Spirit of 76 would it?

No, I know the Spirit of 76. Real Name: William Nasland. Originally introduced as the only American member of the Freedom Fighters, a spoof of DC's Freedom Fighters, to serve as the Uncle Sam parallel. He, along with Dyno-Mite (whou would late become the second Mighty Destroyer) were the only ones to reappear after the group's encounter with the invaders; Nasland later became Captain America II (if Isaiah is 0), and a founding member of the All-Winners Squad.

I'm serious, there was a colonial captain America. I remember, he had this duel, but the gun he got wasn't loaded, so he threw it...

[TheCorpulent1]

Was there anything special about him, or was he just a tough guy who decided that he should be captain of an as-yet-nonexistant nation?

[rigel7soldiers]

He wasn't backed by the government, but he had a mask, and a tricorner hat, and I have little to no recollection of the story he was in except for the gun-throw, because Wizard made fun of him for it in like their July 2000 issue, give or take a few years. My memory is really not what it used to be, I tell you.

Found a link: http://www.geocities.com/ratmmjess/rogers.html

[SLVRSR4]

So will this same thing happen to Patriot? From the blood transfusion i haven't read every issue so correct me if i'm wrong

[TheCorpulent1]

He wasn't backed by the government, but he had a mask, and a tricorner hat, and I have little to no recollection of the story he was in except for the gun-throw, because Wizard made fun of him for it in like their July 2000 issue, give or take a few years. My memory is really not what it used to be, I tell you.

Found a link: http://www.geocities.com/ratmmjess/rogers.html
So... technically he was Captain Yankee Doodle? Ouch. :(

[rigel7soldiers]

Huh. Yeah, I guess. So.. I guess, technically, Steve Rogers was the first Captain America. Sorta.

It's weird how much that costume looks like regular Cap's, huh?

[Darthphere]

So... technically he was Captain Yankee Doodle? Ouch. :(


Nah, thats messed up.

[The Question]

So will this same thing happen to Patriot? From the blood transfusion i haven't read every issue so correct me if i'm wrong


Patriot doesn't have powers. He lied about having them and then started shooting up on super steroids cultivated from the growth hormones of superhumans to keep up with his team mates.

[TheCorpulent1]

The growth hormones of mutants, specifically. The drug was called MGH (mutant growth hormone).
Huh. Yeah, I guess. So.. I guess, technically, Steve Rogers was the first Captain America. Sorta.

It's weird how much that costume looks like regular Cap's, huh?
Yeah, it is really similar. I suppose there's only a certain number of ways to apply an American flag to a human body, though.

[Darthphere]

Yeah, it is really similar. I suppose there's only a certain number of ways to apply an American flag to a human body, though.


LMAO!

[The Question]

The growth hormones of mutants, specifically. The drug was called MGH (mutant growth hormone).


Yeah, but the batch he was using was cultivated from Mr. Hyde's glands.

[rigel7soldiers]

Yeah, but the batch he was using was cultivated from Mr. Hyde's glands.

Doesn't Hyde need those glands for whatever he uses them for?

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, but the batch he was using was cultivated from Mr. Hyde's glands.
Then I guess that wasn't MGH after all, but rather SHGH.

[The Question]

Doesn't Hyde need those glands for whatever he uses them for?


Yeah, but it doesn't mean they can't extract the hormones from them.


Then I guess that wasn't MGH after all, but rather SHGH.


Also, the MGH from the Daredevil arc "Underboss" was cultivated from The Owl's petuitary glands. So, I don't think being born superhuman is necessairy for taking MGH from someone's hormones.

[rigel7soldiers]

Yeah, but it doesn't mean they can't extract the hormones from them.

So I can expect him to be all femme from now on?





Also, the MGH from the Daredevil arc "Underboss" was cultivated from The Owl's petuitary glands. So, I don't think being born superhuman is necessairy for taking MGH from someone's hormones.

Owlsley is a mutant, I thought... how come he can spin his head 180 degrees? What is it with Daredevil villains and MGH? When's Madcap getting in on this action?

[The Question]

So I can expect him to be all femme from now on?

No. Growth hormone and testosterone are different.

Owlsley is a mutant, I thought... how come he can spin his head 180 degrees? What is it with Daredevil villains and MGH? When's Madcap getting in on this action?


Owlsly's not a mutant. He got his powers from a combination of surgury and drug therapy.

[TheCorpulent1]

Ok, so basically we're in agreement that MGH is not really MGH, then? That's kind of annoying.

[rigel7soldiers]

Ah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owl_(comics)

wikipedia says his gliding comes from mutation.
Maybe Hyde is the exception, not the rule, though.

[The Question]

Ok, so basically we're in agreement that MGH is not really MGH, then? That's kind of annoying.



Well, I'm guessing the peramiters for it are that it's growth hormone from a mutated human who's mutation re****ed in superhuman abilities. Weather they're born with the mutation or not doesn't seem to matter.


Ah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owl_(comics)



wikipedia says his gliding comes from mutation.

Maybe Hyde is the exception, not the rule, though.



Spider-Man's powers are a mutation. Just not in the way that the X-Men are mutants (I/E: born with it). And The Owl is not a mutant in that sense. He got his powers from prolonged use of a mutanagenic drug of his invention.

[TheCorpulent1]

Still lame. The word "mutant" has had a specific connotation in the Marvel universe since the '60s.

[The Question]

I suppose. Then again, the average joe on the street in the MU considers most superhumans to be mutants. I mean, alot of people call Spider-Man a mutant. And the dealer in underboss even comented to his client "they're all mutants." Not factual in the sense of mutants being born with their mutation, but that is the opinion of the common man.

[TheCorpulent1]

Not from what I've seen. Spider-Man gets lumped in with the mutants because no one likes him. The "common man" would probably punch you if you suggested that Captain America or any other beloved superhero was a mutant.

[The Question]

Fair point. The more popular ones usually avoid that labeling. But most of the less camera friendly types would probably be considered mutants by most. And hey, some may consider them all to be mutants including Cap and the FF. I mean, not everyone hates mutants.

[TheCorpulent1]

But the FF's origin is public knowledge, isn't it? They weren't born different, they were made different by a space mission gone wrong. Granted, conspiracy theorists might just chalk that up to "the man" telling people what they want to hear. I guess we can just safely assume that whoever named MGH believed all of the superhumans were mutants.

[The Question]

Yeah. Which, by the definition of the word "mutant" as it origionally apeared in the dictionary, is technically true. Unless they're cyborgs. Or aliens. Or are on drugs that don't alter the DNA.