Must be a real kick in the nuts for Bruce...

[trustyside-kick]

I found it really ironic how both Jason and Tommy are mad at Bruce for the same reason. If you read the big conversation with Tommy and Bruce in Hush Returns and then you read the big conversation at the end of Batman #650 you will notice a crapload of similiarities.

Basically they both hate Bruce for not killing the Joker. Only difference with Tommy is that he is mad at Bruce for not putting an end to all of the villains.

And they both mentioned how with his "system of morality and justice" that he is only hurting Gotham more than helping it. How about that for kicking a man when he is already down? lol.

Pretty interesting eh?

[hippie_hunter]

F**k Hush Returns. DC will just ignore it sooner or later. They've already returned the badassness of Prometheus in Birds of Prey.

[trustyside-kick]

Yea, a lot of people died in Hush Returns. That wasn't cool. :down

[LennonMcCartney]

I think that whats interesting about Jason Todd is that he was looking for vengence, even though Batman isn't about revenge. Batman is about justice. I know that Batman began his war on crime partially out of revenge and greif, but I think it is more about justice. I think that Bruce also realized this, and this is a theme that has been highlighted in Begins and in Forever. Fighting for revenge consumes a person. Batman fights crime because he wants to prevent what happened to him from happening to anyone else. While Batman does fight crime to protect the innocent, I don't think he really fights to avenge them. I think in that respect it makes sense that he would not kill the Joker, because there is no real justice in his murder. One could argue that killing the Joker would prevent the deaths of many innocent people, but this would devalue human life. The reason the Joker should be stopped is because, well, duh, he kills people. Human life is precious, yet killing the Joker shows a disregard for human life, and thus negates the value of human life. Killing the Joker, in Batman's eye's is immoral and illogical.
Batman is a very dark character, and he does walk the line between light and dark, but what seperates him from Jason Todd is that Jason has crossed over to, for a lack of a better word, the Dark Side. When Todd became selfish, and looked for revenge, he devalued human life and became evil. While it may be justified after what he has been through, Jason cannot be considered a good person. I agree that is ironic that Tommy and Jason are both similar in that they harbor anger towards Batman because of his lack of vengence, but I think its that lack of vengence that ensures that Batman is just. And yeah, its late at night and I'm rambling.

[MattMetalHead]

^Nicley stated.

[trustyside-kick]

I think that whats interesting about Jason Todd is that he was looking for vengence, even though Batman isn't about revenge. Batman is about justice. I know that Batman began his war on crime partially out of revenge and greif, but I think it is more about justice. I think that Bruce also realized this, and this is a theme that has been highlighted in Begins and in Forever. Fighting for revenge consumes a person. Batman fights crime because he wants to prevent what happened to him from happening to anyone else. While Batman does fight crime to protect the innocent, I don't think he really fights to avenge them. I think in that respect it makes sense that he would not kill the Joker, because there is no real justice in his murder. One could argue that killing the Joker would prevent the deaths of many innocent people, but this would devalue human life. The reason the Joker should be stopped is because, well, duh, he kills people. Human life is precious, yet killing the Joker shows a disregard for human life, and thus negates the value of human life. Killing the Joker, in Batman's eye's is immoral and illogical.
Batman is a very dark character, and he does walk the line between light and dark, but what seperates him from Jason Todd is that Jason has crossed over to, for a lack of a better word, the Dark Side. When Todd became selfish, and looked for revenge, he devalued human life and became evil. While it may be justified after what he has been through, Jason cannot be considered a good person. I agree that is ironic that Tommy and Jason are both similar in that they harbor anger towards Batman because of his lack of vengence, but I think its that lack of vengence that ensures that Batman is just. And yeah, its late at night and I'm rambling.

Ya, not only the vengence thing but both Elliot and Todd said that Bruce was not helping Gotham but hurting it.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I'll tell you this.....anyone that complained about Batman not "saving" Ra's at the end of Batman Begins......read the end of GOTHAM KNIGHTS, and your head will explode.

[trustyside-kick]

I'll tell you this.....anyone that complained about Batman not "saving" Ra's at the end of Batman Begins......read the end of GOTHAM KNIGHTS, and your head will explode.

:confused:

What does that have to do with the topic.

[The Joker]

the end of gotham knights was a hush arc...hell, all of gotham knights from what they labled Hush Returns till the end was just that, Hush returns...so it's very closely related

[trustyside-kick]

the end of gotham knights was a hush arc...hell, all of gotham knights from what they labled Hush Returns till the end was just that, Hush returns...so it's very closely related

I know that but he was talking about Ra's in Gotham Knights and Batman Begins...even though same comic series still off topic.

[hippie_hunter]

I know that but he was talking about Ra's in Gotham Knights and Batman Begins...even though same comic series still off topic.

He was saying that people complaining about Batman choosing to let Ra's al Ghul die in Batman Begins should read this arc of Gotham Knights where he let Hush and the Joker duke it out to the death. However, I counter his arguement with that Hush Returns sucked ass.