John Ottman on Superman Returns score

[Afropik]

hey guys

here's a link to hear what John Ottman has to say about scoring Superman Returns

take a listen

http://www.soundtrack.net/podcast/

[SolidSnakeMGS]

Great find! I'm listening and I'm liking! Lois theme included, new Lex theme, Superman's isolation theme, etc...

And yes, THE KRYTPON THEME IS THERE!!

[green]

Nice...thanks Afropik.

[Fatboy Roberts]

very nice catch.

Main Title
Love Theme
Krypton Theme

all returning. I hope the Krypton theme is a little more prominent than he's saying it is, but yeah, I'm sure this should be pretty reassuring for a LOT of people.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

OST comes out June 27th with soundtrack.net having an exclusive 'first listen' late May to early June.

[Fatboy Roberts]

meaning the whole thing will probably leak around the end of the month. :)

[SolidSnakeMGS]

meaning the whole thing will probably leak around the end of the month. :)

Yup, that's what I was thinking. I know the ROTS score was leaked well over a month before it's release.

[Showtime]

Very very good news. I am a happy camper.

[Zor-El]

this is a really cool find. Everything JO said sounds good...

especially the part about the opening credits being shorter than the original ;)

[Superman4ever]

Awesome...:D Awesome!

Dude...I'm a happy man.

John Ottman saying that any other theme is sacrilegious...Priceless! We get a Lex theme, and a Superman Personal theme...this sounds awesome!

[Agnarr]

Excellent news. I hope it lives up to our expectations. But with the williams theme included, that's 50% successful score already. :)

[SolidSnakeMGS]

I'm wondering what that "personal" theme is about. Hopefully a variation of the slow and melodically somber theme at the end of Superman II when Lois and Clark are at the Planet right before the 'kiss'.

[Fatboy Roberts]

I know the ROTS score was leaked well over a month before it's release.

Yeah, that was fun ;) I remember writing the first full review of that thing on the web. Good times. Until the score fanboys found it. I had NO idea I didn't know THAT much about John Williams. It was sorta embarrasing.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

Yeah, that was fun ;) I remember writing the first full review of that thing on the web. Good times. Until the score fanboys found it. I had NO idea I didn't know THAT much about John Williams. It was sorta embarrasing.

I wrote one as well on my blog, dated April 10th of last year. A few SW sites listed it.

[Fatboy Roberts]

ahh..the good times. :)

That movie has also aged pretty well. I mean, it's only a year out, but it REALLY feels Star Wars to me. To the point where it's almost neck and neck with the original, for me. It's no Empire, but it's definitely what Jedi should have been. at least in terms of feeling.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

ahh..the good times. :)

That movie has also aged pretty well. I mean, it's only a year out, but it REALLY feels Star Wars to me. To the point where it's almost neck and neck with the original, for me. It's no Empire, but it's definitely what Jedi should have been. at least in terms of feeling.

Very much so agreed. I watched part of it the other night and will finish it tomorrow night. I've seen the movie 6 or 7 times, and I never get tired of it like I do with the other prequels. It has so many great moments that easily outnumber the few 'typical bad prequel entry' moments, if that makes any sense. Everything about it is sooo much much improved over the previous two. It's like it's a totally different film crew. It's like how 'Ran' was to 'Kagemusha'.

It's a shame Lucas didn't start the prequels off on that foot instead of ending it that way.

[Fatboy Roberts]

I'll agree with you on Attack of the Clones, but Phantom Menace has definitely grown on me. I don't watch it all that much, but when I do--for all it's goofy, corny missteps and REALLY bad pacing near the middle, it does feel like a Star Wars movie. Not a particularly GREAT Star Wars movie, but it really is it's own beast there. Pretty unique.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

I still think AOTC is a slightly better, more entertaining film, but in hindsight, PM has a much more substantial, Star Wars-esque feel and story. It's an all-around better story at that. AOTC is just filler and almost unnecessary, but it has a few more 'better' parts for me, and Ewan really sinks into the role well. When he scolds Anakin for losing his lightsaber, and says the line about not losing it, that "it's your life", that was so Alec Guinness.

[Zor-El]

hey hey... go to the MF.com boards for this....this is superman, people ;)

[Fatboy Roberts]

If I want retardation unfettered and a psychotic shut-in monitoring my emails, I'll go to mf.com, yeah. Star Wars discussion? Not so much anymore. Well, not so much since about 40 of us up and left the place

but that's neither here nor there.

The thing I find coolest about this news is that Ottman surprised himself with the score. He had his preconception of what he was going to do and it turned out the movie dictated something different, and it sounds like it's going to fit in VERY well with Williams' score.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

I like how he said he started subconsciously straying back to the Williams-esque style that he was deliberately trying to avoid. It shows the power of the work in that regard.

It surprises me because I imagined this guy having a big head about it, like he didn't want to stoop to merely "covering" pre-existing material like the Williams theme. I guess if I was in his place, I'd want to spend my time making new material that I will be known and hopefully respected for, not because of someone else's work. Nice to see that isn't the case.

I really dug how respectful Ottman is towards the genius that is Williams. He also seems genuinely concerned with people's attitude and feeling towards one of the most famous motifs in cinema history, and he realizes the dangers of changing or omitting it.

[Fatboy Roberts]

That's what was refreshing. All the talk previous to this was "Ottman is sorta sneering at all the slavish fanboyism" and of course, I knew that was colored a little by angry slavish fanboyism itself, but I did think he was going to try as hard as he could to not marginalize himself. And he did. It just turned out that reinventing the wheel is stupid. he can work on the transmission a little, funk out the chassis, and he realized that. I think, though, that him being co-editor of the film itself REALLY helped out with that. It's not like he saw some storyboards, went off in his own world, and then was delivered a rough cut for spotting sessions. He was CUTTING the rough cut. Changes the way you percieve the flick, and changes the choices you thought you were going to make, I'd imagine.

[Zor-El]

If I want retardation unfettered and a psychotic shut-in monitoring my emails, I'll go to mf.com, yeah. Star Wars discussion? Not so much anymore. Well, not so much since about 40 of us up and left the place

but that's neither here nor there.

The thing I find coolest about this news is that Ottman surprised himself with the score. He had his preconception of what he was going to do and it turned out the movie dictated something different, and it sounds like it's going to fit in VERY well with Williams' score.
haha fair enough...i actually haven't been there since like...last summer...ish, but i did recognize your name lol
as for Ottman's preconception being different than the final result, i agree with you there and the fact that he sounds pleased with what hes accomplished is also a comforting thing...

[Fatboy Roberts]

True indeed.

By the way, your sig has always made me chuckle every time I see it.

At least we know the opening isn't going to be as long as the original movies. And I'm sorta hoping we get that Krypton theme REALLY quickly. As time has gone by, I've enjoyed THAT more than the actual Main Title march.

[Gaurav Sharma]

It is wonderful that they will retain the Krypton and the love theme in addition to the main theme, which of course we already knew. The work by John Williams in Superman is immortal and a piece of history, it was impossible to see how something so dominantly associated with Superman could be tinkered with too much and Ottoman's acceptance is simply a manifestation of this.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

I didn't know if this deserved it's own thread or not, but here is a blurb about why Williams actually passed on scoring SR.

The latest issue of Spanish film magazine Fotogramas fetures an exclusive article o*n Superman Returns, which cites Brandon Routh's resemblance to Christopher Reeve as o*ne of the reasons why John Williams isn't in charge of the score. "I could never have dealt with this score. He [Brandon] reminded me too much of Chris", admits the Maestro.

[Naite22]

hey guys

here's a link to hear what John Ottman has to say about scoring Superman Returns

take a listen

http://www.soundtrack.net/podcast/
AFROPIK, best find in ages!!!:up:
I LOVE what I'm hearing, so this is just great!!

[romeogbs19]

This is AWESOME news! I'm glad to hear the Love theme is staying in the score. I was actually somewhat disappointed when JO said a while back that the Love theme would no longer work -- but I was a little confused at the time because he referenced the 'pop' version (which was horrible even then). Sounds like he wasn't a fan of that iteration, but does love the theme overall. :-)

[dark_b]

i hope that he will update this themes fro mwilliams. because if it is the same than f... you ottman.i am afraid that i will not like this music. they changed metropolis and the suit. you can also change the music.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

i hope that he will update this themes fro mwilliams. because if it is the same than f... you ottman.i am afraid that i will not like this music. they changed metropolis and the suit. you can also change the music.

Uh, they already said it would be the same! And I -- like many others -- are GLAD that the music is the same. It should be. Ottman could never exceed Williams, so why try? Plus it's obvious if they're using the first two Reeve Superman movies as a starting point that the music should be carried over. It's the right thing to do and one of the best decisions the production has made.

[dark_b]

Uh, they already said it would be the same! And I -- like many others -- are GLAD that the music is the same. It should be. Ottman could never exceed Williams, so why try? Plus it's obvious if they're using the first two Reeve Superman movies as a starting point that the music should be carried over. It's the right thing to do and one of the best decisions the production has made.i know listened to the whole podcast. i changed my mind. i like what is ottman doing. i think it will eb great

i want to hear the lex theme. i want it to be like the vader theeme

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

This sounds excelent..

he is basicly updating the original score..and the themes are going to be in there more than we think.

[Junfan]

Good listen. Sounds like he did the right thing.

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

Well it sounds like in the end he had no choice..because he could write around the score so easily.

not to mention Singer wants the score to be used.

:up:

[dark_b]

i hope that in the soundtrack he will give as musch of hes new music in there. because we already have the williams soundtrack.

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

And that williams score is what makes it superman..to me anyway..that theme nails the heroic center that is the man of steel.

[dark_b]

new superman personal theme
http://www.kal-el.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_ndvd0091wj.jpg

krypton theme
http://www.kal-el.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_ndvd0072ng.jpg

superman march
http://www.kal-el.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_SD-2658.jpg

love theme
http://www.kal-el.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_CL_01.jpg

new lex theme
http://www.kal-el.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_fallenhero-statue.jpg


i already now can hear this incredible music.

singer,ottman :up: :up:

[The Sage]

i hope that he will update this themes fro mwilliams. because if it is the same than f... you ottman.i am afraid that i will not like this music. they changed metropolis and the suit. you can also change the music.

You really need to calm the heck down.

[dark_b]

You really need to calm the heck down.iwrote that before the podcast. now that i listened the podcast i am calm :):up:

[musclesforsupes]

Can you read my mind Part II is on there lol

[batman44]

Sounds good. I hope the Lex theme is very menacing and hopefully an Otis like theme will be no where in sight.

[Van Petrol]

Sounds good. :up:

[Showtime]

Track 8: Read My Mind

[Captain Kirk]

Krypton theme, check.:up:
Superman march, check.:supes:
Love theme, check.:up:
New Lex theme, check :eek:
Superman iso theme, check :cool:

Man, I am just as hyped about the release of the soundtrack as I am about the film. Now to load all the themes on to my 360 and its game time!

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

Beam you up scotty..

welcome to the hype.

[green]

Track 8: Read My Mind


Ugghh, dont go there.

[Captain Kirk]

:up: Thanks for the welcome, Robo. Ever need phaser bombardment of a specific target let me know, the Enterprise is standing by!

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

:up: Thanks for the welcome, Robo. Ever need phaser bombardment of a specific target let me know, the Enterprise is standing by!


well i think that breaks a few prime directives.. but i will keep that in mind.

:up:

[Showtime]

Ugghh, dont go there.

I had to do it.

[Captain Kirk]

Hey, what about the all-important disco version of the love theme! Maybe its not too late to replace Richard with John Travolta. Superman would have to get down like its Saturday night to get Lois back!:p

[musclesforsupes]

Captain Kirk NCC-1701-A was the bomb!

[Captain Kirk]

:D NCC-1701 No bloody 'A' 'B' 'C' 'D' or 'E' ,and definately no NX-01.

[musclesforsupes]

LOL A Rules plus Kirk Needs to be brought to life again and not in a stupid JJ Abrahams Prequel idea

[Cinemaman]

Good read.

[Nightwing1977]

Great read!! It nice to hear Ottman doesn't have a big ego & that they will keep some of Williams's music while also adding Ottman's own score. I can't wait to hear the music in theater soon!! :)

[explode7]

So whats the purpose of John Ottman when he is just using someone else's song?

[SolidSnakeMGS]

^ John Williams wouldn't sign on because he was reminded too much of Chris in Brandon, according to his own words.

You might as well ask why Donner isn't directing, Hackman isn't Luthor, and OTIS isn't in this.

[explode7]

Yeah but why waste money to hire someone when they could just take the good ole JW theme and use it.

[Fatboy Roberts]

because you can't score a whole movie with just Williams' theme.

You think before you post, right?

[Showtime]

^You know the answer to that.

[explode7]

Yes fatbuoy you know the answer to that.

[IKnowSomeJudo]

Glad to hear all those great tracks are returning, but I'm also glad to hear Ottman's putting his own spin on them rather than doing note-for-note renditions. Can't wait for his version of the Krypton theme...

[Catman]

I didn't know if this deserved it's own thread or not, but here is a blurb about why Williams actually passed on scoring SR.

The latest issue of Spanish film magazine Fotogramas fetures an exclusive article o*n Superman Returns, which cites Brandon Routh's resemblance to Christopher Reeve as o*ne of the reasons why John Williams isn't in charge of the score. "I could never have dealt with this score. He [Brandon] reminded me too much of Chris", admits the Maestro.

Why is everyone ignoring this? It's interesting info.

[IKnowSomeJudo]

Oh, I'm not ignoring, I just don't know what to say to that, really. Wow, I guess they must have been close friends or something.

[dark_b]

i think it was made up. why would he said something like that?

[lujho]

I hope the Smallville theme is still being used (as in John Williams' theme for Smallville in the film - nothing to do with the TV show). That was the one theme that Ottman didn't mention, and it'd really be silly not to use it in the Smallville scenes. It's just a little theme, but it's a nice one.

[Catman]

i think it was made up. why would he said something like that?

He is an emotional guy. He may get sad thinking of Chris.

[Captain Kirk]

I hope the Smallville theme is still being used (as in John Williams' theme for Smallville in the film - nothing to do with the TV show). That was the one theme that Ottman didn't mention, and it'd really be silly not to use it in the Smallville scenes. It's just a little theme, but it's a nice one.
:o I was wondering about it myself. It is so 'Norman Rockwellish' ,and I think that it would be a mistake not to include it. I trust Ottman more after hearing the podcast; so I think we have nothing to worry about!:up:

[Asr]

I hope the Smallville theme is still being used (as in John Williams' theme for Smallville in the film - nothing to do with the TV show). That was the one theme that Ottman didn't mention, and it'd really be silly not to use it in the Smallville scenes. It's just a little theme, but it's a nice one.

Can you imagine if the movie opened onto a cornfield and started blaring "SOMEBODY SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVE MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" :D

[SuperDaniel]

God no!

[Metropolis_Man]

Can you imagine if the movie opened onto a cornfield and started blaring "SOMEBODY SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAVE MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" :D

I don't wanna imagine that. Haha

[Backdrifter]

^ John Williams wouldn't sign on because he was reminded too much of Chris in Brandon, according to his own words.

You might as well ask why Donner isn't directing, Hackman isn't Luthor, and OTIS isn't in this.

I doubt he said that. Where did you read that?

[SuperDaniel]

Although i`d prefer that Williams was the composer of this movie, i`m fine with Ottman. His Usual Suspects theme is amazing. Im sure he will do the score justice and i`m glad he won`t write the theme note by note, but will add his own spin to it. Thats good since this movie isn`t Superman the movie.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

I doubt he said that. Where did you read that?

It's from a magazine. I posted about it many pages back actually with the name of the magazine. I'll try to find it.

[Backdrifter]

Don't worry. I am sure Ottman will concoct some hackney Williams'esque theme and turn the movie into melodramatic filth.

[Metropolis_Man]

Although i`d prefer that Williams was the composer of this movie, i`m fine with Ottman. His Usual Suspects theme is amazing. Im sure he will do the score justice and i`m glad he won`t write the theme note by note, but will add his own spin to it. Thats good since this movie isn`t Superman the movie.

I think Ottman will do good. His take on it will no doubt be classic but new at the same time. You gotta have that classic Superman theme, and I don't think John is going to hender the soundtrack in anyway, this is Superman, probably one of his biggest projects yet.

[Mentok]

So more than just the Superman theme will be used? Sweet :up:

[Metropolis_Man]

So more than just the Superman theme will be used? Sweet :up:

maybe.....if the stars align correctly

[Kroc1138]

Good Find. This still dissappoints me however.

I'm still not convinced that he really has the talent to adapt Williams. (his previous works show that) Plus some of his comments bug Me. Lex Luthor didn't have a theme??? Williams titled it as "March of the Villains" It was a general theme showcasing Luthor an his cronies.

Second, I still fail to see how Film scores are or get dated?? Even the really old scores.

To me this is just more bad news on the Scoring aspect of this movie.

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

The only thing this tells me is that they were waiting for the new music to put in the trailer.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

To me this is just more bad news on the Scoring aspect of this movie.

Nope, in fact, it was much better news for me. I liked Ottman's obvious enthusiam and respect for Williams's work, and his consideration in adapting it.

My fear was that we'd hear only a hint of the Superman theme. Now we learn we're getting not one, not two but three or more themes from the Williams score. And also that he's expounding upon the theme to create a more 'emotional' motiff for Superman.

Also, Lex really didn't have a theme. It was more of an Otis theme, which was overly 'bouncy' and goofy.

[Fatboy Roberts]

I always, when I was younger, mistook it for the Jawa theme from Star Wars. And yes, the person it stays on most is Otis, not Lex. It's introduced with Otis, it plays loudest with Otis--usually when it's just Lex, the music is darker and less melodic.

It was called "March of the Villains" but it's "Otis' happy fun time looney tunes homage." in reality.

So more than just the Superman theme will be used?

I think maybe I missed a joke or somethin, but yeah--that was stated in the first few posts of the thread :)

[Kroc1138]

Nope, in fact, it was much better news for me. I liked Ottman's obvious enthusiam and respect for Williams's work, and his consideration in adapting it.If You know about previous post on this matter, then you would know that I've been against the notion of anybody adapting Williams' Superman Score. Mainly b/c when it was done last time it was terrible. (and ken Thorne actually has talent) But However there are some composer who I think are up to it. William Ross did a great Job adapting for Chamber of Secrets. David Arnold on the other hand has a style that very closely resembles Williams. (Listen to his Wing Coomander Overture)

Now Ottman on the other Hand I find to be Talentless to say the least. All of his scores that I have heard are either forgettable or are just downright awful. That's my feeling on the matter

My fear was that we'd hear only a hint of the Superman theme. Now we learn we're getting not one, not two but three or more themes from the Williams score. And also that he's expounding upon the theme to create a more 'emotional' motiff for Superman. To me that just shows that, a Bad adaptation of Williams" score (and Possibly inappropriate uses of certain cues) along with Ottman forgettable work.

Also, Lex really didn't have a theme. It was more of an Otis theme, which was overly 'bouncy' and goofy.It was Called March of the Villain for a reason. I actually Listened to the version that was used in the Film and the Concert arraingment and I can see aspects of it sounding a bit Lighthearted, but other aspects of it sounding dark and steathy. It fit Luthor because in the movie he kind of disarmed Superman by acting like a pushover Villain a Goofball who in the end ensnared and incapacitated Superman.

Plus Listening to the Complete score album there are tons of Moments throughtout where the theme is used in Contrast to Superman's heroic theme when he is Chasing the Rockets and Trying to Stop the Earthquake. Why the hell would Williams use "Otis's" (a secondary character's) Theme like that?? For that Matter why would a Villian Crony even have a theme and not the main villain?? Ottman is Full of it.

[Fatboy Roberts]

but other aspects of it sounding dark and steathy.

LOL, there is no part of that cue that is ever "dark and stealthy" The closest it's ever come to approaching it is Misguided Missiles.

Ottman is definitely not full of it. It's a very valid interpretation, title of the track be damned. And you're pretty good at seeing what you want to see, I'll give you that, but incorporating parts of Williams' score including the Krypton and Love themes--that doesn't automatically trigger "BAD" in flashing lights. No more so than when Patrick Doyle adapted themes for Harry Potter, or Don Davis adapted themes for Jurassic Park, along with the other examples you've listed. And none of those composers had the added benefit of knowing how the movie was unfolding because those two weren't EDITING THE MOVIE as well.

Yes, last time someone adapted a Superman Score--it was terrible. It was also monetarily hamstrung, on a rushed schedule, and it's not some evidence of immutable law.

As to how the Usual Suspects score put you to sleep, I dunno, but to each his reach ;)

[SolidSnakeMGS]

If You know about previous post on this matter, then you would know that I've been against the notion of anybody adapting Williams' Superman Score. Mainly b/c when it was done last time it was terrible. (and ken Thorne actually has talent) But However there are some composer who I think are up to it. William Ross did a great Job adapting for Chamber of Secrets. David Arnold on the other hand has a style that very closely resembles Williams. (Listen to his Wing Coomander Overture)

No, I don't keep up with your previous posts. All I did was say that it wasn't bad news for me but was in fact quite the opposite. It seems a lot of people here are of a similiar mind.

Unfortunately, Thorne had to work with a very small piece orchestra (in comparison to Williams) and what seemed like to me fewer rehearsals. The result was a terribly imbalanced score that lacked that cohension that Williams had. The instruments simply didn't come together well and it sounded more like a marching band than a full piece symphony orchestra.

Now Ottman on the other Hand I find to be Talentless to say the least. All of his scores that I have heard are either forgettable or are just downright awful. That's my feeling on the matter

The Usual Suspects is a brilliant score. More moody than thematic, but with some great kenetic moments.

To me that just shows that, a Bad adaptation of Williams" score (and Possibly inappropriate uses of certain cues) along with Ottman forgettable work.

Considering you nor I nor anyone has heard anything Ottman's done for this score I'd say that it's premature if you're saying it's a "Bad adaptation". If not, forgive me. I had trouble understanding what you just said.

It was Called March of the Villain for a reason. I actually Listened to the version that was used in the Film and the Concert arraingment and I can see aspects of it sounding a bit Lighthearted, but other aspects of it sounding dark and steathy. It fit Luthor because in the movie he kind of disarmed Superman by acting like a pushover Villain a Goofball who in the end ensnared and incapacitated Superman.

It was actually called 'March of the Villains', but it was much more prevailent when showing Otis. The first time we hear the music is when we see Otis making his way to Luthor's lair. Pretty much any other time we see Otis, we get that bouncy motiff.

When we see Luthor, we may get one of Williams's 'short-stopped' variations on the theme, whereas Williams proceeds with the theme but doesn't finish it up, instead lets the theme drift away or into another motiff. Now he does slow the tempo down or put a very deliberate, low piece sound to it for those ominous moments, but that's not as common as the upbeat variation.

Otis was campy, and the soundtrack appropriately underscored that. If you've ever seen older comedies, they used the tuba a lot because it's such an exaggerated, bulky sound. Williams is known for his old-school score homages. It's a very lighthearted, silly sound, and it fit Otis very well.

Listening to the soundtrack completely, if you think the majority of the 'March of the Villains' cues used in it are "dark and stealthy", you should go back and give it a listen, because that simply is not the case. Any fan or avid listener of Williams knows what the man can do when he truly wants to do dark. 'March of the Villains' is not dark.

Plus Listening to the Complete score album there are tons of Moments throughtout where the theme is used in Contrast to Superman's heroic theme when he is Chasing the Rockets and Trying to Stop the Earthquake. Why the hell would Williams use "Otis's" (a secondary character's) Theme like that?? For that Matter why would a Villian Crony even have a theme and not the main villain?? Ottman is Full of it.

I don't think it's Ottman that is full of it here, pal. :)

[Kroc1138]

No, I don't keep up with your previous posts. All I did was say that it wasn't bad news for me but was in fact quite the opposite. It seems a lot of people here are of a similiar mind.I figure you wouldn't have. Who does, I was just simply making my opinion known tot hose that don't know it.

Unfortunately, Thorne had to work with a very small piece orchestra (in comparison to Williams) and what seemed like to me fewer rehearsals. The result was a terribly imbalanced score that lacked that cohension that Williams had. The instruments simply didn't come together well and it sounded more like a marching band than a full piece symphony orchestra.I know all that already. I was mostly referring to The inappropriate Usage of certain themes. I was also referring to Thorne's Work on Superman 3 and Alexander Courage's Work on Superman 4. I didn't really care much of either score. (Except: In the case of Thorne his more original work. In the case of Courage I just didn't like the performances of any of the themes, I liked how Williams did come back to Compose two new Themes, but they badly Mangled by Courage's Conducting )

Seeing as how I Think Both Composers are More talented than Ottman So I'm not expecting much from Him.



The Usual Suspects is a brilliant score. More moody than thematic, but with some great kenetic moments.I Like Moody scores just as much as thematic scores, so pointing out a difference doesn't really help in the fact that I didn't like that score either. I'm just not a fan of it, It just seemed to generic of other composers that I like. Plus I just Hate his performances.



Considering you nor I nor anyone has heard anything Ottman's done for this score I'd say that it's premature if you're saying it's a "Bad adaptation". If not, forgive me. I had trouble understanding what you just said.

It's quite simple. What I was getting at is that I think That a Composer who I find to be Ill suited for the Job of Scoring Superhero Movies. (Much less adapt a well loved score that two other talented composers did a bad job of adapting) That's Right I didn't Like his X2 score or his F4 score either, so what do you expect me to think when a Composer that I don't Like is going to score a movie of my Favorite Superhero and butcher On of My favorite scores? It's called lowered expectations. (Btw. Ottman did another adaptation of another famous score: Halloween. I thought He did a lousy job there as well which is another reason why I have my feelings)

Oh and why can't people have bad vibes anymore. Why is it that every bad preconception/"prediction" has to be shut down. (I don't mind mine being questioned) I feel that I (and SOME) have every reason to have bad feelings about certain things. I at least draw My conclusion based on what is preseted to me and go from there. Sometimes it's less. (surprisingly enough, I'm right at least 90% of the time) :) It how I knew I would hate the Batman Begins Score b/c Hans Zimmer was on board. (not a fan of his)



It was actually called 'March of the Villains', but it was much more prevailent when showing Otis. The first time we hear the music is when we see Otis making his way to Luthor's lair. Pretty much any other time we see Otis, we get that bouncy motiff. IIRC, the only time it is used for Otis was when when He was walking to Luthor's Lair. All other time it is used to underscore Luthor's plot and in his Villainous acts which are carried out by Luthor and his Cronies. Hence the reason is called March of the Villains. Plural, thus meaning it is a general theme used to underscore all the primary acts of Villainy in the film. Since most of the major acts lead directly to Luthor it is his theme in the end since he is the mastermind. Williams does that from time to time with some of his other scores.

The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme): He uses it to underscore the Empire and all of it's evil, but he uses it for one of the Root Villains in the movie Darth Vader.

Palpatine's theme: The same can be assumed for Palpatine's Theme. It underscored the Sith in some occasions in the Prequels but it was mainly Palpatine's theme in the end.

The Force Theme (Ben's theme): Again the same as the others. Used for two different aspects in each Film, the Usage of the Force and for Obi Wan Kenobi.

When we see Luthor, we may get one of Williams's 'short-stopped' variations on the theme, whereas Williams proceeds with the theme but doesn't finish it up, instead lets the theme drift away or into another motiff. Now he does slow the tempo down or put a very deliberate, low piece sound to it for those ominous moments, but that's not as common as the upbeat variation.
Otis was campy, and the soundtrack appropriately underscored that. If you've ever seen older comedies, they used the tuba a lot because it's such an exaggerated, bulky sound. Williams is known for his old-school score homages. It's a very lighthearted, silly sound, and it fit Otis very well.My response to this is related to my post above. Just like how Williams uses one theme for more person/entity he did the same here.
For Otis he used in in a more comical context. For Luthor, on the other hand, he used in a darker more devious manner. Any fan of William would know he does this from time to time.

Listening to the soundtrack completely, if you think the majority of the 'March of the Villains' cues used in it are "dark and stealthy", you should go back and give it a listen, because that simply is not the case. Any fan or avid listener of Williams knows what the man can do when he truly wants to do dark. 'March of the Villains' is not dark.Your right. When put in it's Proper Context (when Applied to Luthor) it's certainly not very Lighthearted or comical at all. Such example: When Luthor Tosses Superman into hi Pool there is a Menacing Rendition of Luthor's Theme Playing. (sort of a "I have You where I want You" Motif) Plus there are numerous time when there are string variants of the Villain March. (I.e Luthor Killing the Cop with the Train)

I've listened to The Complete Superman Score Way too many times. What you are forgetting when you listen to the score or when watching the movie is the context of theme's usage.


I don't think it's Ottman that is full of it here, pal. :)I'm not convinced. He's still talking out of his ass in that little commentary.

[Backdrifter]

If his X2 and F4 scores are any indication...the Superman score will work against the images on screen. They should have gotten Giacchino.

[Metropolis_Man]

I'm thinking he realized the importance of this one. I wouldn't be surprised to see him borrow a few of Williams ideas in some other parts of the soundtrack.

[Backdrifter]

I hope singer rejects his score and hires Michael Giacchino stat.

[Metropolis_Man]

I hope singer rejects his score and hires Michael Giacchino stat.

Forgive my ignorance, but who is Michael Giacchino? I'm not sure I've heard of him. More than likely I've heard his work, but just didn't know it was him.

[green]

Forgive my ignorance, but who is Michael Giacchino? I'm not sure I've heard of him. More than likely I've heard his work, but just didn't know it was him.


Hey MM, here's some samples of the Mission Impossible 3 soundtrack he just did.
http://www.soundtrack.net/features/article/?id=190

[Metropolis_Man]

Hey MM, here's some samples of the Mission Impossible 3 soundtrack he just did.
http://www.soundtrack.net/features/article/?id=190

Thanks Green. I'm going to check it out now.

[green]

Thanks Green. I'm going to check it out now.


Your welcome, enjoy.:up:

[SolidSnakeMGS]

It's quite simple. What I was getting at is that I think That a Composer who I find to be Ill suited for the Job of Scoring Superhero Movies. (Much less adapt a well loved score that two other talented composers did a bad job of adapting) That's Right I didn't Like his X2 score or his F4 score either, so what do you expect me to think when a Composer that I don't Like is going to score a movie of my Favorite Superhero and butcher On of My favorite scores? It's called lowered expectations. (Btw. Ottman did another adaptation of another famous score: Halloween. I thought He did a lousy job there as well which is another reason why I have my feelings)

Well, that's fine if you're prejudging someone on previous works. We all do it. But you need to take into consideration something which you already know; Ottman is basing his score around previously existing Williams material.

You apparently love Williams and hate Ottman's original work, so this score should be looking pretty good for you since it hits this balance.

Oh and why can't people have bad vibes anymore. Why is it that every bad preconception/"prediction" has to be shut down. (I don't mind mine being questioned) I feel that I (and SOME) have every reason to have bad feelings about certain things. I at least draw My conclusion based on what is preseted to me and go from there. Sometimes it's less. (surprisingly enough, I'm right at least 90% of the time) :) It how I knew I would hate the Batman Begins Score b/c Hans Zimmer was on board. (not a fan of his)

It isn't your "vibe" I'm questioning. If you feel 'March of the Villains is dark, then I have to question your experience or perception.

IIRC, the only time it is used for Otis was when when He was walking to Luthor's Lair. All other time it is used to underscore Luthor's plot and in his Villainous acts which are carried out by Luthor and his Cronies. Hence the reason is called March of the Villains. Plural, thus meaning it is a general theme used to underscore all the primary acts of Villainy in the film. Since most of the major acts lead directly to Luthor it is his theme in the end since he is the mastermind. Williams does that from time to time with some of his other scores.

The FIRST time we see Otis, we hear the Villains theme.

The theme stops, and then starts back up shortly after when Otis is inside the tunnel going to Lex's lair, as he begins to eat.

The FIRST time we see Lex, we do NOT hear the Villains theme. We hear a small little incidental pull of strings.

The next time we hear the Villains theme is when we see Otis again after Lex and Co. have flipped the car to stop the military convoy. The theme continues as he makes his way to and climbs up the truck carrying the missle.

Next we see the Army men gathered around Ms Teschmacher who is acting as the distraction. The theme is basically atmospheric here without any real theme.

Again, we see Otis and hear the Villains theme as he inputs the code to the missile.

We see Lex again AND still NO Villains theme.

However, as Otis bounds down from the hill to regroup, we AGAIN hear the Villains theme, and it ends almost exactly as he gets into the van and we see Luthor.

The only time we hear anything close to the Villains march when Lex is onscreen is after he dumps Superman into the pool with the necklace of Kryptonite. The theme is slower, lower, and does what I call a 'Williams short-stop' where the theme doesn't finish but instead rolls into a slight downbeat flourish. He doesn't even get the complete motiff.

Now I may be missing some stuff, but I think the above is fairly accurate and complete.

The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme): He uses it to underscore the Empire and all of it's evil, but he uses it for one of the Root Villains in the movie Darth Vader.

Palpatine's theme: The same can be assumed for Palpatine's Theme. It underscored the Sith in some occasions in the Prequels but it was mainly Palpatine's theme in the end.

The Force Theme (Ben's theme): Again the same as the others. Used for two different aspects in each Film, the Usage of the Force and for Obi Wan Kenobi.

I have no argument about that, but it doesn't really relate because Williams focuses his motiff just about exclusively on Otis, as I have pointed out.

My response to this is related to my post above. Just like how Williams uses one theme for more person/entity he did the same here.
For Otis he used in in a more comical context. For Luthor, on the other hand, he used in a darker more devious manner. Any fan of William would know he does this from time to time.

My first soundtrack was Williams. I have most of his stuff. Of course I know this. But any Williams fan would also know that he sometimes deviates from his formula and likes to mix it up occasionally.

Your right. When put in it's Proper Context (when Applied to Luthor) it's certainly not very Lighthearted or comical at all. Such example: When Luthor Tosses Superman into hi Pool there is a Menacing Rendition of Luthor's Theme Playing. (sort of a "I have You where I want You" Motif) Plus there are numerous time when there are string variants of the Villain March. (I.e Luthor Killing the Cop with the Train)

When Lex kills the cop, you do not hear a Villains theme. You pretty much just hear an unrelated theme of peril that has no real part of the Villians theme in it nor is it a part of the Villains theme.

I've listened to The Complete Superman Score Way too many times. What you are forgetting when you listen to the score or when watching the movie is the context of theme's usage.

No, I'm not forgetting anything. When you say the Villains theme is for Luthor, I disagree. It's almost completely used for Otis and the campier, more comedic moments, just as I disagree when you say the theme itself is dark and stealthy. It is not, and is about 95% used in campy moments.

I'm not convinced. He's still talking out of his ass in that little commentary.

What exactly did he say to make you think that?

[SolidSnakeMGS]

Oh, and that MI:3 score, from what I heard, is nothing I haven't heard before nor anything I'm inclined to remember. Now I completely accept the whole score could be different; I'm simply basing my opinion on what I've heard which does nothing to lead me to believe Giacchino would have been any better.

There are moments in my life when I can hear the Ottman 'Usual Suspects' score in my head. Maybe something or someone triggers it, but that's the way I am when I listen to nothing but film scores mostly.

To me, music becomes memorable in that regard.

[Backdrifter]

Oh, and that MI:3 score, from what I heard, is nothing I haven't heard before nor anything I'm inclined to remember. Now I completely accept the whole score could be different; I'm simply basing my opinion on what I've heard which does nothing to lead me to believe Giacchino would have been any better.

There are moments in my life when I can hear the Ottman 'Usual Suspects' score in my head. Maybe something or someone triggers it, but that's the way I am when I listen to nothing but film scores mostly.

To me, music becomes memorable in that regard.

yeah, you are wrong. Giacchino is about 500 times more talented than Ottman. He textures his scores beautifully and knows how to make a roaring piece without going over the top with it. I firmly believe that Giacchino is the next Hollywood great and I consider myself to be pretty knowledge able when it comes to film scores...and this is outside of the John Williams/Jerry Goldsmith world. Get his scores for the Medal of honor games and The Incredibles. The man can emulate John Williams like its his ****ing job. You do not know what you are talking about. Not to mention, Steven "John Williams scores all my movies" Spieberg discovered him.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

yeah, you are wrong. Giacchino is about 500 times more talented than Ottman. Get his scores for the Medal of honor games and The Incredibles. The man can emulate John Williams like its his ****ing job. You do not know what you are talking about. Not to mention, Steven "John Williams scores all my movies" Spieberg discovered him.

Ummkay. How can MY OPINION be wrong? And besides, please quote where I even said such and such was better than such and such. You probably can't since I didn't. Read my posts next time.

Oh, and genius, Williams has been in the movie scoring business since 1958. Unless of course, a 12 year old Spielberg hired him to score one of his shorts.

[Backdrifter]

Ummkay. How can MY OPINION be wrong? And besides, please quote where I even said such and such was better than such and such. You probably can't since I didn't. Read my posts next time.

Oh, and genius, Williams has been in the movie scoring business since 1958. Unless of course, a 12 year old Spielberg hired him to score one of his shorts.

Spielberg discovered Giacchino, numbnuts. I don't care if it is your opinion or not. You are wrong. You could say that Ottamn is better than Mozart in your opinion. You'd be wrong. Giacchino and Ottman are not even comparable. I suggest that you purchase his scores for the Medal of Honor games and The Incredibles and compare them to John Ottman's body of work...Giacchino will shine through as the winner without a doubt.

[Fatboy Roberts]

Giacchino actually most resembles John Barry, not Goldsmith or Williams.

Unless of course, a 12 year old Spielberg hired him to score one of his shorts.

Snake, he was saying Spielberg discovered Giacchino. Then again, Spielberg also discovered Vin Diesel.

I love Giacchino's work in "The Incredibles" and think he'll do a decent job with Mission Impossible III. but I certainly think he sounds less like Williams and more like John Barry/Elmer Bernstein.

I don't care if it is your opinion or not. You are wrong.

Wow. Well then, everybody, Stewie Griffin just rewrote the rules on basic communication, everyone. Gather round, parse his last few posts for morsels of genius. It's not just anyone who can grab the wheel and jerk the car into oncoming traffic like that. That takes skill and wisdom beyond years and sands of time.

It's like you'd be gritting your teeth, sweating and smiling like an ecstacy freak if the chance Ottman and Giacchino could actually fistfight occured. I dunno how you're taking this so personally, but it's fascinating to watch.

[Backdrifter]

Giacchino actually most resembles John Barry, not Goldsmith or Williams.



Snake, he was saying Spielberg discovered Giacchino. Then again, Spielberg also discovered Vin Diesel.

I love Giacchino's work in "The Incredibles" and think he'll do a decent job with Mission Impossible III. but I certainly think he sounds less like Williams and more like John Barry/Elmer Bernstein.
http://buysoundtrax.com/sounds/moh-1/01_Medal%20Of%20Honor.mp3

http://buysoundtrax.com/sounds/moh-1/03_Taking%20Out%20The%20Railgun.mp3 - this one is awesome.

http://buysoundtrax.com/sounds/moh-1/13_Nordhausen.mp3 - This one in particular is very much John Williams-esque.

Medal of Honor = Emulating John Williams.

And I do acknowledge that the Incredibles and MiIII are very much in the vein of John Barry and Lalo Schfrin...and they succeed in doing so.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

Snake, he was saying Spielberg discovered Giacchino. Then again, Spielberg also discovered Vin Diesel.

Oh, whoops. Sorry then, Stewie. My mistake.

Everything else still stands though. I'm a big MOH fan and love that theme, but that doesn't necessarily means Ottman sucks and shouldn't be doing the score.

Trust me, when I heard Ottman was doing the score, I was disappointed. But after this interview and a little thinking, I am certainly giving him a chance.

[Backdrifter]

Wow. Well then, everybody, Stewie Griffin just rewrote the rules on basic communication, everyone. Gather round, parse his last few posts for morsels of genius. It's not just anyone who can grab the wheel and jerk the car into oncoming traffic like that. That takes skill and wisdom beyond years and sands of time.

It's like you'd be gritting your teeth, sweating and smiling like an ecstacy freak if the chance Ottman and Giacchino could actually fistfight occured. I dunno how you're taking this so personally, but it's fascinating to watch.

Cute, but some people may be giving their opinions...but they mistake their opinions for actual thinking.

[Backdrifter]

More Giacchino:

http://www.lalalandbb.com/MP3/SWON1.mp3

http://www.lalalandbb.com/MP3/SWON5.mp3

http://www.lalalandbb.com/MP3/SWON11.mp3

http://www.lalalandbb.com/MP3/SWON13.mp3

http://www.lalalandbb.com/MP3/SWON16.mp3

From Alias:

This are a bit Herrmann-esque.

http://buysoundtrax.com/sounds/alias_v2/02_On%20The%20Train.mp3

http://buysoundtrax.com/sounds/alias_v2/21_Hitting%20The%20Fan.mp3

[Fatboy Roberts]

Cute, but some people may be giving their opinions...but they mistake their opinions for actual thinking.

Ahhh. Messageboard elitism. Now you're speaking my language. :)

Then again--you don't HAVE to be a dick about it that hardcore, Stewie. It's not like he punched your mom in the box or something--he just thinks Ottman is a good composer, as he thinks Giacchino is as well. It wasn't an either/or situation, yunno?

[Backdrifter]

Yeah, but Ottman is not a good composer! And I will not rest until he retracts his statement!!!

[Fatboy Roberts]

What a valiant knight of teh interweb u r

[Backdrifter]

Has anybody listened to all those clips? Giacchino is incredible.

[Fatboy Roberts]

Dude, no one said he wasn't.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

Yeah, but Ottman is not a good composer! And I will not rest until he retracts his statement!!!

There is nothing to retract, psycho boy, simply because I never said he wasn't. In all of your haste to flame like some noob troll, you neglected to actually read my post to see that I made no such derogatory comments.

For your special needs, I am reposting my quote. Please read it this time.

I'm simply basing my opinion on what I've heard which does nothing to lead me to believe Giacchino would have been any better.

Maybe you even missed the part where I COMPLIMENTED his MOH score?

I apologized for my oversight in regard to taking your quote out of context. If you want to prove you're anything but the angsty 12 year old that you come off as, you'll do the same. I won't hold my breath though.

And Ottman is a good composer. And apparently the commitee that issues Saturn Awards agrees, as they gave him an award for his score. Again, you can actually have the laughable gall to tell me my opinion is wrong (which isn't the first time you've done so to someone : (http://superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8587769&postcount=36 ) , but it only reinforces the idea that you're pretty much nothing more than someone bent on petty high school insults and typical internet troll behavior. Had I the inclination to waste any more time on you, I'm sure I could dig up plenty more where that came from.

[Backdrifter]

There is nothing to retract, psycho boy, simply because I never said he wasn't. In all of your haste to flame like some noob troll, you neglected to actually read my post to see that I made no such derogatory comments.

For your special needs, I am reposting my quote. Please read it this time.



Maybe you even missed the part where I COMPLIMENTED his MOH score?

I apologized for my oversight in regard to taking your quote out of context. If you want to prove you're anything but the angsty 12 year old that you come off as, you'll do the same. I won't hold my breath though.

And Ottman is a good composer. And apparently the commitee that issues Saturn Awards agrees, as they gave him an award for his score. Again, you can actually have the laughable gall to tell me my opinion is wrong (which isn't the first time you've done so to someone : (http://superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8587769&postcount=36 ) , but it only reinforces the idea that you're pretty much nothing more than someone bent on petty high school insults and typical internet troll behavior. Had I the inclination to waste any more time on you, I'm sure I could dig up plenty more where that came from.
Well I am flattered that you took the time... I apologize for being a dick... but, when people think Ottman is anything but a mediocre composer it gets me going for some reason. So, I am sorry for acting like that. But I do think your opinion is somewhat off. Giacchino has proven himself to be something special in his small body of work in MoH and The Incredibles(as well as Lost and Alias). I just find Ottman's work to be generic in a James Horner kind of way. I mean, come on, his Fantastic 4 score was laughable. I guess this whole debate is a tad on the pointless side...but some postive has come out of it; people have gotten some links to listen to Giacchino and get an early start on watching this guys career blossom. I think we will be seeing great things from him the future. It looks like he will be taking a stab at Star Trek at some point. His rendition of Shifrin's Mission: Impossible theme sounds beautiful. Again, apologies for my behaviour...bad day. :(

Btw, he was wrong in that post. It was not a matter of opinion. It was a matter of fact.

[Kroc1138]

Well, that's fine if you're prejudging someone on previous works. We all do it. But you need to take into consideration something which you already know; Ottman is basing his score around previously existing Williams material.So? Both Ken Thorne and Alexander Courage did the exact same thing. In the Case of Courage, John Williams actually came in and composed new material. (I liked the new material I just hated the conducting and performance of it) In general My Gripe with Ottman is more than Disliking his Compositions. I hate his conducting and Orchestrations. The Superman Theme and all of Williams' works could be in the movie, but that doesn't stop the fact that it will sound horrible to me.

Performance is Key.

You apparently love Williams and hate Ottman's original work, so this score should be looking pretty good for you since it hits this balance. Just to be Clear once again. None of thatMatters if John Williams (or another Competent Composer I.e. William Ross or David Arnold) isn't Scoring the movie.
I don't Like Ottman's Style
I don't Like his Conducting
I don't Like How his Pieces are performed

It's not going to matter that he is using Williams' Material. It will just sound like a bad rerecording. I'm sure that you have listened to bad rerecordings of scores that you like. That's what I'm talking about.



It isn't your "vibe" I'm questioning. If you feel 'March of the Villains is dark, then I have to question your experience or perception.I might have misspoke but at the same time I think you are missunderstanding the context. When I meant Dark I don't mean "Imperial March" Dark, I mean That it carries Villainous undertones. I would equate it to Jabba's Theme in Return of the Jedi. (IIRC, that also was mainly performed by Tuba, yet it Represented a Villain)



The FIRST time we see Otis, we hear the Villains theme.

The theme stops, and then starts back up shortly after when Otis is inside the tunnel going to Lex's lair, as he begins to eat.

The FIRST time we see Lex, we do NOT hear the Villains theme. We hear a small little incidental pull of strings.

The next time we hear the Villains theme is when we see Otis again after Lex and Co. have flipped the car to stop the military convoy. The theme continues as he makes his way to and climbs up the truck carrying the missle.

Next we see the Army men gathered around Ms Teschmacher who is acting as the distraction. The theme is basically atmospheric here without any real theme.

Again, we see Otis and hear the Villains theme as he inputs the code to the missile.

We see Lex again AND still NO Villains theme.

However, as Otis bounds down from the hill to regroup, we AGAIN hear the Villains theme, and it ends almost exactly as he gets into the van and we see Luthor.All examples that could easily be explained away. Simply speaking, Those examples are simply showcasing the acts of villainy occuring with Otis commiting most of the acts. That to me doesn't show much, and just proves the point I was making, it's a general Theme that Represents all villainous acts committed by or through the main Villain, Lex Luthor.

The only time we hear anything close to the Villains march when Lex is onscreen is after he dumps Superman into the pool with the necklace of Kryptonite. The theme is slower, lower, and does what I call a 'Williams short-stop' where the theme doesn't finish but instead rolls into a slight downbeat flourish. He doesn't even get the complete motiff. Well he doesn't really need to. The point I assume he (and Donner) wanted was to showcase it in a more ominous way to state that Lex has Superman subdued.

It doesn't really matter how Long it is used so much that it is used to Represent the Villains.

Now I may be missing some stuff, but I think the above is fairly accurate and complete. There are others But I don't totally recall either. But Throughtout after Superman escape****hor, it is used in competition with The Superman March. (A duel of themes Hero vs Villain)



I have no argument about that, but it doesn't really relate because Williams focuses his motiff just about exclusively on Otis, as I have pointed out.No he doesn't. Again as I have said again and Again, the Theme Represents the most dominant forms of Villainy in the the movie. Your list doesn't really prove anything more than that, which still makes my list and Arguments valid.



My first soundtrack was Williams. I have most of his stuff. Of course I know this. But any Williams fan would also know that he sometimes deviates from his formula and likes to mix it up occasionally. While I agree Williams Likes to mix it up from time to time, he still often uses one theme at times to represent what is occurring onscreen. That was the point I was making. For example, When Williams First introduced the Imperial March, it was showcasing a Star Destroyer onscreen dispatching Probes. It was a quieter take, but Ominous. The second time was seeing the Imperial Fleet in all it's glory: There we got a Powerful, Militaristic rendition of it since it's showing the Empire's Might. When it Represents Vader it's far more ominous and very Brooding.

I can Site The Fact that The March of the Villains was in fact used in the sequels to Represent Luthor as Proof that it is more Luthor's theme. However, That is Problematic, b/c one of the big problems with the Adaptations of the Superman scores had a tendancy of using some of the Themes from STM in the wrong context. Although, Alexander Courage however didn't really make that mistake so much and he used March of the Villains for Lex.



When Lex kills the cop, you do not hear a Villains theme. You pretty much just hear an unrelated theme of peril that has no real part of the Villians theme in it nor is it a part of the Villains theme. Wrong. You get a String Representation of the Villain March. Your probably not hearing too well b/c of the Train. But it's on the Album. (However, it might not have been used in the Film)



No, I'm not forgetting anything. When you say the Villains theme is for Luthor, I disagree.I did say that that the theme was strictly Luthor's theme. I said that it was a General theme that Represents the main threats in the movie. Since the main bad guy is Luthor, he get's top billing for it. But I never said that it was strictly his theme any more than I say that The Imperial March is Strictly Vader's Theme.

It's almost completely used for Otis and the campier, more comedic moments, just as I disagree when you say the theme itself is dark and stealthy. It is not, and is about 95% used in campy moments.Context, Context, Context!! Comedic when it it refers to Otis's Bumbling antics but more menacing when used on Luthor.
And to remind you (So you you don't keep running with the notion That I think March of the Villain is a dark theme) I don't think it's Dark in the way you think I think it is. I meant that it is a menacing Theme. It clearly sounds like a villain theme. Especially when you listen to the March of the Villains track. The String element denote a menacing element to it.



What exactly did he say to make you think that?
The "Otis" Theme Nonsense. And the Notion that Film Scores get Dated.

[explode7]

That new JO theme is perfect:up:

[SolidSnakeMGS]

There are others But I don't totally recall either. But Throughtout after Superman escape****hor, it is used in competition with The Superman March. (A duel of themes Hero vs Villain)

Nope, I watched it last night. No such competiting themes.

No he doesn't. Again as I have said again and Again, the Theme Represents the most dominant forms of Villainy in the the movie. Your list doesn't really prove anything more than that, which still makes my list and Arguments valid.

Nope again. My list shows that it is a theme MAINLY used for Otis. It is accurate.

Wrong. You get a String Representation of the Villain March. Your probably not hearing too well b/c of the Train. But it's on the Album. (However, it might not have been used in the Film)

LOL. You just contradicted yourself. I'm wrong but you might be? Come on, you're reaching here. It is NOT AT ALL played when the cop is killed. It's almost incidental music.

There is a lot of music by Williams that doesn't get used in movies. 'Luke & Leia' from the ROTJ soundtrack for example. And in Superman's case, most of the 'Love Theme' isn't used.

I did say that that the theme was strictly Luthor's theme. I said that it was a General theme that Represents the main threats in the movie. Since the main bad guy is Luthor, he get's top billing for it. But I never said that it was strictly his theme any more than I say that The Imperial March is Strictly Vader's Theme.

I don't follow you. Did you mean to say that you DIDN'T SAY it was strictly Luthor's theme?

Context, Context, Context!! Comedic when it it refers to Otis's Bumbling antics but more menacing when used on Luthor.
And to remind you (So you you don't keep running with the notion That I think March of the Villain is a dark theme) I don't think it's Dark in the way you think I think it is. I meant that it is a menacing Theme. It clearly sounds like a villain theme. Especially when you listen to the March of the Villains track. The String element denote a menacing element to it.

I actually Listened to the version that was used in the Film and the Concert arraingment and I can see aspects of it sounding a bit Lighthearted, but other aspects of it sounding dark and steathy.

It sounds dark or it is dark. Pretty similiar to me.

Again, there is only ONE TIME where it is used for Luthor, despite his MANY dark acts throughout the film. And it isn't even a complete theme.

[Kroc1138]

Nope, I watched it last night. No such competiting themes.Wrong. I don't recall which Track it is. (It's Either Chasing Rockets or Superfeats) But it is a mingling of the Superman march and The Villain March. I think you might need to watch the movie and Listen to the Album. (I assume You have the complete Score)



Nope again. My list shows that it is a theme MAINLY used for Otis. It is accurate.Accurate? Maybe. Complete? NO!



LOL. You just contradicted yourself. I'm wrong but you might be? Come on, you're reaching here. It is NOT AT ALL played when the cop is killed. It's almost incidental music.Not really. Whether or not it was used is irrelavent. The fact that It it used in the Manner I've explained, contradicts you notion that the Theme Belongs to Otis and that it is mainly used in a campy way.

There is a lot of music by Williams that doesn't get used in movies. 'Luke & Leia' from the ROTJ soundtrack for example.Things that any Film Score fan would know. As for "Luke and Leia" that was and Alternate Theme or a Prototype to what was used in the Film, namely it was titled Brother and Sister. (it is a slightly different Motif from Luke and Leia)

And in Superman's case, most of the 'Love Theme' isn't used.What are you talking about? It was used in the End title Credits because the Credits outlasted the End title March.



I don't follow you. Did you mean to say that you DIDN'T SAY it was strictly Luthor's theme?Yes, Typos do happen.





It sounds dark or it is dark. Pretty similiar to me.Mainly referring to the "March of the Villains" which was a Prototype Concert Arrangment. It showcase various motifs of the Theme, some which were gear toward Otis (the Begining half, Much of the Brass that is Tuba Based) the other Half Uses Strings and Some Brass and is menacing. That Is Probably the Term I should have used. Stringed instruments can in fact be menacing you know.

Again, there is only ONE TIME where it is used for Luthor, despite his MANY dark acts throughout the film. And it isn't even a complete theme.And once again I said that it isn't STRICTLY Luthor's Theme. It's a Villain motif. It varies from time to Time b/c we assume that Luthor shouldn't be a threat to Superman. Thus the Villain theme isn't really used in the same contrasting capacity as the Superman March. It's downplayed until Luthor takes his plan into action. I again ask you to Listen to Chasing Rockets and Superfeats. Luthor theme is in one of those. And I'll listen to again. (since I don't recall where it was)

[SolidSnakeMGS]

Wrong. I don't recall which Track it is. (It's Either Chasing Rockets or Superfeats) But it is a mingling of the Superman march and The Villain March. I think you might need to watch the movie and Listen to the Album. (I assume You have the complete Score)

So I'm wrong but ONCE AGAIN you cannot back up your claim.

Well, you can't because NEITHER tracks have this "mingling".

Accurate? Maybe. Complete? NO!

When arguing and you think someone is wrong, it's usually prudent to not only provide evidence, but to provide what you think is the right answer. My list is to the best of my knowledge complete AND accurate. I stand by it.

Not really. Whether or not it was used is irrelavent. The fact that It it used in the Manner I've explained, contradicts you notion that the Theme Belongs to Otis and that it is mainly used in a campy way.

Yeah, it IS relevant. Certainly is. You're saying there is the Villains theme being played when the cop is being killed. THERE ISN'T. There is no arguing this! It is not there!

If it's on the OST, so what?? That proves NOTHING. Hard to argue it's underscoring when Lex's kills the cop when it's only on the soundtrack, isn't it?

Things that any Film Score fan would know. As for "Luke and Leia" that was and Alternate Theme or a Prototype to what was used in the Film, namely it was titled Brother and Sister. (it is a slightly different Motif from Luke and Leia)

Ok, nothing about this was ever disputed.

What are you talking about? It was used in the End title Credits because the Credits outlasted the End title March.

That may be possible, but since I rarely watch the credits all the way through, I wouldn't know. Besides, I meant IN THE FILM itself, and you knew that. Listening to the end credits is like listening to the soundtrack; their is no visual to underscore.

Yes, Typos do happen.

Agreed.

Mainly referring to the "March of the Villains" which was a Prototype Concert Arrangment. It showcase various motifs of the Theme, some which were gear toward Otis (the Begining half, Much of the Brass that is Tuba Based) the other Half Uses Strings and Some Brass and is menacing. That Is Probably the Term I should have used. Stringed instruments can in fact be menacing you know.

No need for the condescension, bud. I'm fully aware strings can be menacing. I don't seem to have the problem of identifying the tone of a theme here.

And once again I said that it isn't STRICTLY Luthor's Theme. It's a Villain motif. It varies from time to Time b/c we assume that Luthor shouldn't be a threat to Superman. Thus the Villain theme isn't really used in the same contrasting capacity as the Superman March.

No it isn't. EXCEPT ONE TIME, it is used exclusively for Otis. We hear it for Lex whereas it becomes sort of a victory flourish. How come we do not hear this Villains theme when...well...uh....Luthor is being a villain and killing cops and Supermen? No, we hear it when Otis is being a villain.

It's downplayed until Luthor takes his plan into action.

What?? You're trying to say the theme is downplayed? LOL. It's quite the opposite. The Villains theme is OVERBEARING until the end when we hear a not even complete and slower paced theme.

I again ask you to Listen to Chasing Rockets and Superfeats. Luthor theme is in one of those. And I'll listen to again. (since I don't recall where it was)

No it isn't. Sorry, but you're wrong. It isn't there, just like it isn't there when Lex kills a cop.

[dark_b]

this is incredible
http://www.soundtrack.net/features/article/?id=192

[SolidSnakeMGS]

this is incredible
http://www.soundtrack.net/features/article/?id=192

You know, I've never really seen a candid photo where Routh isn't smilling! He seems like such a nice guy.

[Bat Attack]

edit

[Fatboy Roberts]

Nice--you guys see that the "leaving home" cue has been incorporated as well? Whoever it was asking for the "Smallville" cues from Superman the Movie just got their wish.

hell, this is a nice little bit of information, too: An entire deleted scene is going to be completed and scored for the DVD, it looks like.

[Mr. Socko]

Would have been better if Williams had done it but glad his original score is coming back.

[Agnarr]

"Two choir sessions were held at Warner Brothers. Led by Bobbi Page, the first was a mixed choir of sixty voices, and the second was an eight-member boys choir."

I like choral pieces. This makes me happy. Still have to wait and see if the score is any good, though. Woulda been nice if they could have gone w/howard or williams, or maaaybe zimmer.

the X2 sountrack wasn't THAT bad . . . just sort of bland. The opening was the best part, imho.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

Nice--you guys see that the "leaving home" cue has been incorporated as well?

I suppose when he leaves home again, we'll hear that piece again. I always loved that track, and it'll be nice to hear it again.

[Seen]

It seems like the classic intro, which was going to be used, is now dropped. Wonder why? And supposedly a major sequence too. Hmm...

[SolidSnakeMGS]

"During one of the bigger days, the original prologue and main titles were recorded. At the time, it was planned to be basically a re-creation of the original opening from the 1978 film, with the curtain opening, comic book intro, and then flying through space as the John Williams march played. (Things have changed now, and a new prologue will be recorded instead.)"

Yeah, that's kinda...disturbing. Hmmmm....

[Mr. Socko]

BOOO! The new one better be just as good.

[mcflytrap]

Well I am flattered that you took the time... I apologize for being a dick... but, when people think Ottman is anything but a mediocre composer it gets me going for some reason.

I'm the same way with music. I'm such an elitist that if someone tells me they like a particular band or artist that I think is a hack, I will go all out and will not rest until they've been crushed by my musical superiority.

There may not be a way to prove a certain opinion right or wrong, but you can damn well prove if someone's opinion is uninformed.

[Mr. Socko]

Yes, Ottman is good but a Williams, he is not.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

Yes, Ottman is good but a Williams, he is not.

Yeah, I don't think you'll find anyone to argue that.

Oh, and "musical elitists"... :down:down

[Michael Corleone]

"During one of the bigger days, the original prologue and main titles were recorded. At the time, it was planned to be basically a re-creation of the original opening from the 1978 film, with the curtain opening, comic book intro, and then flying through space as the John Williams march played. (Things have changed now, and a new prologue will be recorded instead.)"

Yeah, that's kinda...disturbing. Hmmmm....

I think their talking more about the fact that the time will be off and beats will not sync up with whats on screen. Doesnt mean that they just threw it out. They may have had to just rearrange it. Or perhaps the opening is a bit different and that would require a number of changes.

[Michael Corleone]

Yeah, I don't think you'll find anyone to argue that.

Oh, and "musical elitists"... :down:down


I can tell you from experience that there is no such thing as a musical elitist. Anyone that claims to be an "elitist" needs to look at what the purpose of music is and not what is "cool" or acceptable.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

I can tell you from experience that there is no such thing as a musical elitist. Anyone that claims to be an "elitist" needs to look at what the purpose of music is and not what is "cool" or acceptable.

Your point = :up::up:

[skruloos]

I'm the same way with music. I'm such an elitist that if someone tells me they like a particular band or artist that I think is a hack, I will go all out and will not rest until they've been crushed by my musical superiority.
Wow. Too bad that it doesn't really mean anything in the real world. But hey. You have a way to compensate for all your inadequacies.


There may not be a way to prove a certain opinion right or wrong, but you can damn well prove if someone's opinion is uninformed.
And none of that has anything to do with taste and preference.

[batman44]

The music seems to be coming together nicely, can't wait to hear it.

[CGHulk]

When John Wiliams was scoring a Star wars movie, we knew the film was near completion. Wahoo!! This film is right around the corner folks!! :D

[Psion]

quote from that new article on scoring

"During one of the bigger days, the original prologue and main titles were recorded. At the time, it was planned to be basically a re-creation of the original opening from the 1978 film, with the curtain opening, comic book intro, and then flying through space as the John Williams march played. (Things have changed now, and a new prologue will be recorded instead.)"

so does that mean the opening theme is gone???? since it said a new prologue?@!?!/!?! why do I feel some what bad about this.......

[MatchesMalone]

Now that Stewie Griffin has finished informing everybody of the reality of subjective artforms, I'll chime in and say that I'll put the Usual Suspects score up against that Medal of Honor crap anyday. That MoH was so overblown it was ridiculous in the game, and reminded me of all of the worst qualities of a John Williams rip-off.

I did like his Incredibles score, but when your entire basis for praising a composer is how much he sounds like somebody else, that's automatic points off in my book.

Ottman will be cueing Williams because that score is Superman. And it's hard to mess it up, unless you turn it into a dirge or something.

[IKnowSomeJudo]

His score was not to be heard in the trailer. Too bad.

[chi-boy]

Ottman sounds like a Danny Elfman ripoff.

[Supermanila]

is that the new superman "emotional" theme that Ottman is doing in the trailer, when Superman and Lois were talking at the DP rooftop? It sounded pretty good to me...

[PSU442]

yeah, i liked that new theme.... very star trek 2-ish.

[dark_b]

bit there was no ottman score in this trailer.

[chi-boy]

you sure? sounded like his style in the foot fetish scene.

[knifeedgedave]

Could someone please list the music cues that were used in the trailer :-)

[PSU442]

i'm pretty sure that was Ottman's new theme in the trailer.... if the music wasn't ready, wouldn't they just use the old Lois theme from the original? using some unknown piece of music wouldn't make sense.... on the other hand, that may explain why it sounded like the work of James Horner to me.. perhaps it is.

[Masut]

I really wanna know if that was his theme during the Supes and Lois talk. It's my favourite part of the trailer!

[PSU442]

i guess nobody knows for sure

[David Ford, RPD]

If that non-Williams stuff in the trailer was indeed new material for the film, it bodes quite well for where Ottman is heading with the music. It's majestic and etheral, a little...supernatural, even.

[Captain Kirk]

:up: Yeah, the piece of music with a solemn Superman flying away was wonderful, and enriches the movie. I think that you can also hear it as the trailer begins. I am sooo ready for June 30th!

[M.O.Steel]

i think the lex theme and the lois theme are from ottoman...that's what he said before, lex never had a serious theme in the original movies, and the lois theme needed a little updating. So i can put money on the fact that those two that we heard in the trailer is new stuff, from ottoman.

[Kroc1138]

So I'm wrong but ONCE AGAIN you cannot back up your claim.

Well, you can't because NEITHER tracks have this "mingling".Then You are not looking Hard enough. Listen to Chasing Rockets. Starting at 1:35 You can clearly hear the Mingling of Both Themes. I'm listening to it Right now. Next Time Do your Homework.

To further Drive My point home. On the Soundtrack Album Score Commentary, the writer seems to disagree with you and Ottman on who's theme it belongs to. He states that the theme Underscores Luthor and Not Otis. While I don't necessarily think it's strictly Luthor's Theme, that to me shows that it is not Otis's theme Either.



When arguing and you think someone is wrong, it's usually prudent to not only provide evidence, but to provide what you think is the right answer. My list is to the best of my knowledge complete AND accurate. I stand by it. You're right. But since I have provided evidence (I'll see if there is more) That you list is missing other instances, then maybe you should stand down on this point.



Yeah, it IS relevant. Certainly is. You're saying there is the Villains theme being played when the cop is being killed. THERE ISN'T. There is no arguing this! It is not there!I don't know if I should take you word for it. I'll just check for myself. However I do recall it being there.

If it's on the OST, so what?? That proves NOTHING. Hard to argue it's underscoring when Lex's kills the cop when it's only on the soundtrack, isn't it?Not really. Because one can synch it up to when it would have been used.(if it was used at all, I'll have to check) Besides, that was the Composer's intent to showcase the theme in that context, to show what is happening onscreen musically. How is it irrelavent that his composition was overruled by Donner or the Producers. (who get a final say on film scoring, but you know that)






That may be possible, but since I rarely watch the credits all the way through, I wouldn't know.It's there since I have watched the entire end credits years back. (Plus it is stated in the Album Commentary that it was used for The reason I gave) The end credits also stated that Superman 2 would coming out next Year.

Besides, I meant IN THE FILM itself, and you knew that. Listening to the end credits is like listening to the soundtrack; their is no visual to underscore.When You said te Love Theme, I assumed you meant the Track "Love Theme From Superman". What Specifically where you talking about? For the most part, most if not all, of what was composed of the Love theme (save the alternate takes) was in the movie.





No need for the condescension, bud. I'm fully aware strings can be menacing. I don't seem to have the problem of identifying the tone of a theme here.If I was coming off as condescending then that wasn't my intention, and I apologize.



No it isn't. EXCEPT ONE TIME, it is used exclusively for Otis. We hear it for Lex whereas it becomes sort of a victory flourish. How come we do not hear this Villains theme when...well...uh....Luthor is being a villain and killing cops and Supermen? No, we hear it when Otis is being a villain.Seeing as how I showed that your list is incomplete (there could be more) This point is invalid and I don't really have refute it.



What?? You're trying to say the theme is downplayed? LOL. It's quite the opposite. The Villains theme is OVERBEARING until the end when we hear a not even complete and slower paced theme. No NO NO!! You misunderstand me. I meant downplayed in the context of what I was saying.

It's a Villain motif. It varies from time to Time b/c we assume that Luthor shouldn't be a threat to Superman. Thus the Villain theme isn't really used in the same contrasting capacity as the Superman March. It's downplayed until Luthor takes his plan into action.
By saying "downplayed" I meant that when Contrasted (Hero vs Villain) with the Superman march it didn't come across powerfully. Just like How when we are introduced to Luthor He doesn't really seem like a Threat To Superman. Thus the theme doesn't come across as a match for the Superman March, but it really wasn't meant to a match to begin with since we always assume that Luthor shouldn't be able to match Superman, but he does.



No it isn't. Sorry, but you're wrong. It isn't there, just like it isn't there when Lex kills a cop.I'll see for myself. Thank You!

[Kroc1138]

i think the lex theme and the lois theme are from ottoman...that's what he said before, lex never had a serious theme in the original movies, and the lois theme needed a little updating. So i can put money on the fact that those two that we heard in the trailer is new stuff, from ottoman.If it is, I really didn't Like it. It took me out of the enjoyment of the Trailer. I do know that all other music in the movie was Williams' recordings.

[Blayton]

What is the release date for the score CD

[SolidSnakeMGS]

There's an article at AICN that mentions the score in a paragraph, but it's nothing more than the writer's hesitations about the score, which I am sure many of us share.

"One of the more highly anticipated films of the year is, of course, SUPERMAN RETURNS, which will be scored by Singer faithful John Ottman, who will be editing the picture as well. The thought of Ottman using John Williams’ original 1978 Superman theme has me terrified. A legendary theme in the hands of a composer who did not compose it will have a hard time shaking off that cheesy sequel smell. I’m almost wishing that if John Williams isn’t scoring it, then leave his themes alone."

[Jlandsw]

I really wanna hear this score!