New Chapter One comment from Byrne

[Gregatron]

At his forum, John Byrne recently stated that Chapter One was originally slated by be something of an off-to-the-side, "Heroes Reborn"-esque take on Spider-Man, a jumping on point designed to familiarize new readers with the character. He also says that it wasn't until after the fanboy backlash began that Marvel stupidly began insisting that Chapter One was now the new "official" backstory for Spider-Man, a position they then reversed (with Byrne taking the blame for the whole mess, as many thought he was "trying to change Spidey's history").

Interesting. Thoughts?

[Effect]

Can you post exactly what he said? Or was that it?

[Rez]

...It was a waste of truffula trees, I don't care who points the fingers where.

[Gregatron]

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11684&PN=2&totPosts=21

Byrne:

"The mandate was simple -- everything would be drawn to a close, we'd "pause" briefly, and then the books would begin again (with less of them, this time). It had been realized that Spider-Man need a "jumping on" point -- the idea that every issue should be a jumping on point having been long lost -- and that's what the relaunch was supposed to be.

(Incidentally, CHAPTER ONE was not originally intended to be a part of this process. As presented to me, CO was meant to be a kind of "Heroes Reborn" take on Spider-Man, set off to one side, to provide potential new readers with a way of getting caught up on Spider-Lore, while at the same time sprucing it up a bit, to make it seem more modern and cohesive. It was only after negative reaction started to come in -- via mail and the 'net, not via sales! -- that Marvel took the rather odd position of insisting CO was now the "official" backstory on Spider-Man. A position they would subsequently reverse, as the final shift to the fully fanboy-dominated ^^***** kicked in.)"

[stillanerd]

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11684&PN=2&totPosts=21

Byrne:

"The mandate was simple -- everything would be drawn to a close, we'd "pause" briefly, and then the books would begin again (with less of them, this time). It had been realized that Spider-Man need a "jumping on" point -- the idea that every issue should be a jumping on point having been long lost -- and that's what the relaunch was supposed to be.

(Incidentally, CHAPTER ONE was not originally intended to be a part of this process. As presented to me, CO was meant to be a kind of "Heroes Reborn" take on Spider-Man, set off to one side, to provide potential new readers with a way of getting caught up on Spider-Lore, while at the same time sprucing it up a bit, to make it seem more modern and cohesive. It was only after negative reaction started to come in -- via mail and the 'net, not via sales! -- that Marvel took the rather odd position of insisting CO was now the "official" backstory on Spider-Man. A position they would subsequently reverse, as the final shift to the fully fanboy-dominated ^^***** kicked in.)"

You know, it does sound like Byrne's doing a little bit of a CYA, but it's certainly a justifiable explanation. Interestingly enough, if Chapter One was supposed to be a "Heroes Reborn" type scenario for Spider-Man, I'm surprised they didn't try something like that when the actual Heroes Reborn took place. After all, there were technically TWO Spider-Man running around, so it's possible that one of them could've ended up in the pocket universe along with the Avengers, Fantastic Four, Doom, and the part of the Hulk.

Anyway, the problem with Chapter One was because A. it made some unnecessary elaborations--such as the Burglar thinking Spidey was casing his own house or Peter being caught in the same explosion as Doc Ock and THEN being bitten by a radioactive spider, etc.--that really didn't do expand what Stan Lee/Steve Ditko had set up, and B. the context in which it came out. Remember, it came on the heals of the Gathering of Five, which was a lously way to temporaily "halt" the Spider-Man books. Plus people still didn't get the bad taste of the clone saga out of their mouths, and the reboot (especially how the 616 books attempted to force them to conform to Chapter One and MJ's supposed death) certainly didn't help. It was a classic case of bad timing. Ironically, Bendis pretty much did a "Heroes Reborn" type setup for Spidey in his Ultimate Spider-Man series and is praised to the hilt, while Byrne is vilified trying to do the same thing with Chapter One.

[Gregatron]

You know, it does sound like Byrne's doing a little bit of a CYA, but it's certainly a justifiable explanation. Interestingly enough, if Chapter One was supposed to be a "Heroes Reborn" type scenario for Spider-Man, I'm surprised they didn't try something like that when the actual Heroes Reborn took place. After all, there were technically TWO Spider-Man running around, so it's possible that one of them could've ended up in the pocket universe along with the Avengers, Fantastic Four, Doom, and the part of the Hulk.

Anyway, the problem with Chapter One was because A. it made some unnecessary elaborations--such as the Burglar thinking Spidey was casing his own house or Peter being caught in the same explosion as Doc Ock and THEN being bitten by a radioactive spider, etc.--that really didn't do expand what Stan Lee/Steve Ditko had set up, and B. the context in which it came out. Remember, it came on the heals of the Gathering of Five, which was a lously way to temporaily "halt" the Spider-Man books. Plus people still didn't get the bad taste of the clone saga out of their mouths, and the reboot (especially how the 616 books attempted to force them to conform to Chapter One and MJ's supposed death) certainly didn't help. It was a classic case of bad timing. Ironically, Bendis pretty much did a "Heroes Reborn" type setup for Spidey in his Ultimate Spider-Man series and is praised to the hilt, while Byrne is vilified trying to do the same thing with Chapter One.


I think Chapter One works as a retelling of the original stories with a few twists, and that it's nowhere NEAR as bad as people claim. The series itself doesn't give the impression that it's trying to supplant the Lee-Ditko stories when one reads it. The impression it gave me was an attempt to respect and retain the tone of the classic stories, but to put a new twist on them.

And I think the only reason Byrne was vilified and Bendis praised is because the herd mentality is that Byrne is "bad" and Bendis is "God".

The astounding thing is that Bendis' version took many, MANY more liberties with the original material than Byrne's, and yet Byrne is the one who always gets attacked for "making a bunch of stupid changes".

I actually prefer Chapter One to Bendis' Ultimate version of the origin (which took SEVEN issues as opposed to Byrne's ONE).

Chapter One is much closer to the characters and situations of the original stories than Ultimate's. Byrne's Peter Parker felt like Peter Parker, for the most part, as opposed to Bendis' "hip", "retooled" brooder.

[stillanerd]

I think Chapter One works as a retelling of the original stories with a few twists, and that it's nowhere NEAR as bad as people claim. The series itself doesn't give the impression that it's trying to supplant the Lee-Ditko stories when one reads it. The impression it gave me was an attempt to respect and retain the tone of the classic stories, but to put a new twist on them.

And I think the only reason Byrne was vilified and Bendis praised is because the herd mentality is that Byrne is "bad" and Bendis is "God".

The astounding thing is that Bendis' version took many, MANY more liberties with the original material than Byrne's, and yet Byrne is the one who always gets attacked for "making a bunch of stupid changes".

I actually prefer Chapter One to Bendis' Ultimate version of the origin (which took SEVEN issues as opposed to Byrne's ONE).

Chapter One is much closer to the characters and situations of the original stories than Ultimate's. Byrne's Peter Parker felt like Peter Parker, for the most part, as opposed to Bendis' "hip", "retooled" brooder.

Oh, I understand your position. Peter Parker in Ultimate Spider-Man is, in no way shape or form, the same character as he is in 616, and in some ways he's a watered down version of the character in the same vein as the Sam Raimi movies. And yes, one of my big gripes with "Power and Responsibility" was that its "decompression" with repeated silent panels, scenes which really didn't add to the overall story, and that, towards the end, it tried to cram way too much in.

Byrne, of course, was working with the original Spider-Man as Stan Lee and Steve Ditko envisioned him but instead of what he did with Superman: Man of Steel, his tweakings of the origin didn't really simplfy anything. Granted, the first Spider-Man story was only 15 pages, but it got the point across and Stan Lee and Peter David once wrote a prose reimaging version of the origin that connected Spider-Man and Doctor Octopus, but the way Byrne did it made it come across as even more convulted that the original origin. The gaps Byrne tried to fill in didn't really equal the sum of its parts and could have been much better, especially if he tossed that reasoning as to why the Burglar showed up as Parker's house.

Still, given the editoral management at the time, Byrne certainly can't get all the blame. Most of that dishonor belongs to Bob Harras.

[Gregatron]

Byrne's reasoning was to try and make things more consistent from the beginning, eliminate the number of radioactive accidents in the Marvel Universe, and explain why the Burglar chose to rob a single home all the way out in Queens.

That's still a few steps above Goblin-Hulk and hippie-Ben.

[stillanerd]

Yes, Hippie-Ben and especially Hulk-Goblin were really unnecessary (why oh why Jemas and Bendis didn't make the Green Goblin be intelligent initially I cannot for the life of me understand). However, while I compliment Byrne for trying to reduce the number of radioactive accidents, it just came off badly executed. And if you wanted to know what the motivation of the Burglar was for robbing a house in Queens, he could've always tied in and streamlined Marv Wolfman's explanation in Amazing Spider-Man #200, or he could've had Ben killed outside his home similar to the carjacking version we got in the films.

[rnewbz]

IS CHAP. 1 in continuity?

[Gregatron]

Yes, Hippie-Ben and especially Hulk-Goblin were really unnecessary (why oh why Jemas and Bendis didn't make the Green Goblin be intelligent initially I cannot for the life of me understand). However, while I compliment Byrne for trying to reduce the number of radioactive accidents, it just came off badly executed. And if you wanted to know what the motivation of the Burglar was for robbing a house in Queens, he could've always tied in and streamlined Marv Wolfman's explanation in Amazing Spider-Man #200, or he could've had Ben killed outside his home similar to the carjacking version we got in the films.


Bryne felt that Wolfman's explanation was overly complex and didn't help the situation.

The problem really began when it was established that Spider-Man's world was based in New York, and that he lived in Queens.

[Gregatron]

IS CHAP. 1 in continuity?


Not currently.

But then, it's a major step above what IS in continuity right now.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Actually, I hated Chapter One fer th' simple reason that th' stories sucked complete ass. And they only got worse as it went.

I liked Ultimate Spidey 'cause it started off great and was really, truly fresh. And then Bendis began to suck and become repetitive.

[Gregatron]

A coat of brightly-colored paint added to a corpse is not exactly "fresh".

[Punisher RULES]

It still pains me to see Pete's "new" origin in a double page splash of Kevin Smith's Daredevil run.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Actually, lemme rephrase:

Chapter One's changes; unecessary. Ultimate's felt updated at least and was a tad more realistic.

Also, Electro's costume in CO? C'mon.

[Themanofbat]

Actually, lemme rephrase:

Chapter One's changes; unecessary. Ultimate's felt updated at least and was a tad more realistic.

Also, Electro's costume in CO? C'mon.

As opposed to his "costume" in the Ultimate U.... PULease :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

There was no need to "update" Spidey, and if you think a Spidey comic is realistic, then you need to be placed in a rubber room..

... bub.

:)

[Rez]

I really enjoy the long drawn out writings of Ultimate. I know it can be tedious as a month to month wait, and hard on the wallet, but the quality of the story is greatly improved. I loved being pissed that Uncle Ben was killed, not just saying, "Oh, Look. His... uncle? Yeah, his uncle is dead." I think reading them back to back is just great. Basically, the more Ultimate you read in one sitting, the better it is.
As for the Hulk Goblins, Sure it's different, but I really did the way that the Ultimate Universe has tied together in that way, with the Super Soldier formula and all.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Well, it made a helluva lot more sense than th' coincidence that Doc Ock an' Spidey came about th' same ways and Sandman was Norman's cousin 'cause they have th' same hairstyle.

Jerk.

[Themanofbat]

Well, it made a helluva lot more sense than th' coincidence that Doc Ock an' Spidey came about th' same ways and Sandman was Norman's cousin 'cause they have th' same hairstyle.

Jerk.

Yes... I am a jerk, all because I think that Ultimate Spider-Man is required reading for retarded children.

Sue me. :rolleyes:

And for the record, the idea of linking Spidey's origin with Doc Ock's goes further than Byrne's telling of it in Chapter One. Stan Lee himself mentions it years before CO, and it's been in a few Spidey novels as well.

Bub. :)

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Oh no, I agree with ya on Ultimate.

Yer a jerk fer other reasons. Figger it out.

[Themanofbat]

Oh no, I agree with ya on Ultimate.

Yer a jerk fer other reasons. Figger it out.

:) :) :)

[deemar325]

You know, it does sound like Byrne's doing a little bit of a CYA, but it's certainly a justifiable explanation. Interestingly enough, if Chapter One was supposed to be a "Heroes Reborn" type scenario for Spider-Man, I'm surprised they didn't try something like that when the actual Heroes Reborn took place. After all, there were technically TWO Spider-Man running around, so it's possible that one of them could've ended up in the pocket universe along with the Avengers, Fantastic Four, Doom, and the part of the Hulk.

Anyway, the problem with Chapter One was because A. it made some unnecessary elaborations--such as the Burglar thinking Spidey was casing his own house or Peter being caught in the same explosion as Doc Ock and THEN being bitten by a radioactive spider, etc.--that really didn't do expand what Stan Lee/Steve Ditko had set up, and B. the context in which it came out. Remember, it came on the heals of the Gathering of Five, which was a lously way to temporaily "halt" the Spider-Man books. Plus people still didn't get the bad taste of the clone saga out of their mouths, and the reboot (especially how the 616 books attempted to force them to conform to Chapter One and MJ's supposed death) certainly didn't help. It was a classic case of bad timing. Ironically, Bendis pretty much did a "Heroes Reborn" type setup for Spidey in his Ultimate Spider-Man series and is praised to the hilt, while Byrne is vilified trying to do the same thing with Chapter One.


The difference being the writing and art sucked donkey balls on Chapter One.

Bryne plan sucks.

[Dangerous]

Thats still does not justify it sucking.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

No it does not.

[stillanerd]

[/color]
The difference being the writing and art sucked donkey balls on Chapter One.

Bryne plan sucks.

Well, yeah, there IS that. I guess you could say that Byrne writes a sucky "real" Spider-Man while Bendis writes a really good "wanna-be" Spider-Man. :)

[gildea]

as i don't see how one fictional character is more 'real' than another I've got to say usm's origin is far superior to chapter one.

[Gregatron]

Sigh.

[gildea]

yawn

[stillanerd]

as i don't see how one fictional character is more 'real' than another I've got to say usm's origin is far superior to chapter one.

What I meant was that Byrne, despite all the elaborations, still made it clear the Chapter One Spidey was the original 616 Spidey, hence my calling him "real." I will agree though that Bendis had a BETTER treatment of the origin, being that it was somewhat, but not entirely closer to Stan Lee's original origin with certain exceptions (I didn't really like the idea that EVERYBODY saw the spider bite Peter in that version though). Byrne making Peter caught in the same radioactive explosion that created Doc Ock and THEN being bitten by the radioactive spider was just too convoluted and more improbable than Stan Lee's original origin.

[Gregatron]

What I meant was that Byrne, despite all the elaborations, still made it clear the Chapter One Spidey was the original 616 Spidey, hence my calling him "real." I will agree though that Bendis had a MUCH BETTER treatment of the origin, being that it was closer to the original origin, even though the spider was a genetically-altered test subject rather than a radioactive one. (I didn't really like the idea that EVERYBODY saw the spider bite Peter in that version though). Byrne making Peter caught in the same radioactive explosion that created Doc Ock and THEN being bitten by the radioactive spider was just too convoluted and more improbable than Stan Lee's original origin.


But it was still a radioactive spider.

And Norman f***** Osborn wasn't involved from the very start.

[gildea]

What I meant was that Byrne, despite all the elaborations, still made it clear the Chapter One Spidey was the original 616 Spidey, hence my calling him "real." I will agree though that Bendis had a MUCH BETTER treatment of the origin, being that it was closer to the original origin, even though the spider was a genetically-altered test subject rather than a radioactive one. (I didn't really like the idea that EVERYBODY saw the spider bite Peter in that version though). Byrne making Peter caught in the same radioactive explosion that created Doc Ock and THEN being bitten by the radioactive spider was just too convoluted and more improbable than Stan Lee's original origin.

sorry, wasn't trying to have a go it's just my intial reaction whenever someone talks about the "real spidey"

There is the original and there is ultimate neither is inherently more valid than the other as they are both cut from the same cloth so to speak.

[Gregatron]

sorry, wasn't trying to have a go it's just my intial reaction whenever someone talks about the "real spidey"

There is the original and there is ultimate neither is inherently more valid than the other as they are both cut from the same cloth so to speak.


One is cut from the finest cloth. The other is an imitation made by a bootlegging operation.

[gildea]

One is cut from the finest cloth. The other is an imitation made by a bootlegging operation.

I agree.

[stillanerd]

But it was still a radioactive spider.

And Norman f***** Osborn wasn't involved from the very start.

Fair enough. But I understood that Bendis, while not making the spider radioactive, was attempting to try and make the idea of Peter receiving his powers from a spider bite more plausible given what we know about radiation these days. And while I am really sick and tired of Osborn being a Lex Luthor wannabe, I can understand trying to tie in the origins of Spider-Man and the Green Goblin. Perhaps I would've liked for a sort of middle ground in Chapter One, in that the spider is irradiated by Doc Ock's radiation experiments (maybe a fusion one like Spider-Man 2 had) but Peter is NOT caught in the same explosion, but is still bitten by the spider after the paramedics cart Doc Ock out of the lab. Just the idea Peter was caught in the explosion THEN bitten was a little too much.

[Gregatron]

I agree.


Let me guess. The "Ultimate" version is the one you feel is cut from the finest cloth.


Sigh.

[Gregatron]

Fair enough. But I understood that Bendis, while not making the spider radioactive, was attempting to try and make the idea of Peter receiving his powers from a spider bite more plausible given what we know about radiation these days. And while I am really sick and tired of Osborn being a Lex Luthor wannabe, I can understand trying to tie in the origins of Spider-Man and the Green Goblin. Perhaps I would've liked for a sort of middle ground in Chapter One, in that the spider is irradiated by Doc Ock's radiation experiments (maybe a fusion one like Spider-Man 2 had) but Peter is NOT caught in the same explosion, but is still bitten by the spider after the paramedics cart Doc Ock out of the lab. Just the idea Peter was caught in the explosion THEN bitten was a little too much.


True.


But if it ain't radioactive, it ain't Spider-Man.


"Is he strong? Listen, bud. He's got...genetically-altered Spider-OZ blood?!?!"

[gildea]

Let me guess. The "Ultimate" version is the one you feel is cut from the finest cloth.


Sigh.

On reflection they were both cut from the finest cloth (AF#15).

Only changed things outside its remit and as such became the said dodgy bootleg version. (byrne FYI).

The other though having a looser remit made excellent use of its very fine material (ultimate FYI).


radioactivity is window dressing, byrne himself has said so more or less.

[Gregatron]

On reflection they were both cut from the finest cloth (AF#15).

Only changed things outside its remit and as such became the said dodgy bootleg version. (byrne FYI).

The other though having a looser remit made excellent use of its very fine material (ultimate FYI).


radioactivity is window dressing, byrne himself has said so more or less.


Perhaps. But the theme song ain't very catchy without it...

[gildea]

Perhaps. But the theme song ain't very catchy without it...

I have no argument.

I am undone!!!

[stillanerd]

True.


But if it ain't radioactive, it ain't Spider-Man.


"Is he strong? Listen, bud. He's got...genetically-altered Spider-OZ blood?!?!"

Yeah, that doesn't really roll off the tounge does it.

And actually, the new lyrics are:

"Is he strong, listen bud:
He's got totem-spider blood.
Flies around with glider webs.
Stings his foes so they look dead.
Hey there, that isn't Spider-Man."

[Gregatron]

"Spider-Man, Spider-Man,

Glides through the air like Superman.

Spins a web, any size,

They're organic; fanboy cries.

Look out!

Here comes the guy who used to be Spider-Man!


Is he strong?

Listen, bud.

He's got magical, Totem-powered blood.


Does he swing,

On a thread?

No! He shoots stingers at your head!

Look out!

There goes the guy who used to be Spider-Man!


In the chill of night,

At the scene of a sex crime,

Like Wolverine not done right,

He slices 'em up real fine!


Spider-Man, Spider-Man,

Unfriendly, monstrous Spider-Man!

Action and fun,

He's ingnored,

Trash and flash is his reward!


To him,

Life is a great big gang-up,

Wherever there's a maim-up,

You'll find the guy who used to be Spider-Man!"

[Symbiotica]

Actually, lemme rephrase:

Chapter One's changes; unecessary. Ultimate's felt updated at least and was a tad more realistic.

Also, Electro's costume in CO? C'mon.

Electro has a new costume in CO?! Someone please post a scan!

[WOLVERINE25TH]

http://www.spiderfan.org/cgi-bin/cover.pl?80123,spiderman_chapter_one,006.jpg

[Symbiotica]

Oh, THAT thing... I think that was a Freudian forget on my part. Brrrr, that was awful. :)