The REAL reason why Batman Begins is so well regarded

[myway]

Keep in mind everybody; Yes, this thread is the antithesis of the pre-existing and similarly named thread, but it's all in good fun and love of Batman. I liked Batman Begins but I'm definitely in the Burton camp and I think that the REAL reason why BB is so well regarded is that some people are so impressed by the inclusion of minute details from the comics that they're willing to completely overlook the fact that movie was lacking in the mystery and excitement necessary (imo) to really due Batman justice. I'm glad they're taking the franchise in a serious direction, but they have some major catching up to do in terms of entertainment value. Horribly conceived (and executed) action sequences, coupled with stilted dialogue and cornball lines left me wanting more, to say the least, hehe.

[Bathead]

No, that's not it at all. It's because it's a hundred times better than Burton's efforts (as good as those were.) You are completely wrong.

[kooguy911]

i dis-aggree "myway".

The movie has terrific acting and mind blowing stunts. OK, maybe im exagerating by the mind blowing part lol, nobodys mind has been blown up yet. That would be dangerous. But nonetheless, the film is great. I just think that so many people enjoy the film that some people like you jump to conclusions thinking its not too good to be true. When airplanes first started flying, nobody could believe what they saw and therefore denied that it was possible at all. Perhaps your not willing to accept the fact that the film is under rated and that you enjoy burton's style of non realism more.

Tell me dear sir, how do you define Batman?

Theres many ways to define this character, and this film is just one of them. You must learn to except what was released, knowing that many people see the character differently in their own vision.

Judging by my experience in trying to explain this kind of information to people, you have 3 options to do after reading this accurate description of your in-accurate post. You can:

A - Post a blur of words of maddness only because you know you were wrong and cannot accept what my opinion states.

B - Completley ignore my discription, as if nobody even saw it.

C - Say that you did not mean to make anybody mad, even though nowhere in my post did i mention being mad.

I hope you realise that there is no choice to completley aggree with me. That choice is in a seperate list of choices for the other posters. This is behind the reasoning that in fact you will defend you in-accurate truth even after you know the non-truth to that. There is a possiblity you may do this, but the pecent of that happening based on my personal experience is 4.9%.

Make your decision mr. "myself". We are all waiting for you to decide upon that.

Meanwhile, that long paragraph if you mind to read, is exactly why his statement in the beggining of this topic is completley wrong.

[zer00]

Why can't people just accept that a good majority of people thought BB was...great and....better than B89.

It boggles my mind. It's not like it's hurting you.

[TheGrayGhost]

Keep in mind everybody; Yes, this thread is the antithesis of the pre-existing and similarly named thread, but it's all in good fun and love of Batman. I liked Batman Begins but I'm definitely in the Burton camp and I think that the REAL reason why BB is so well regarded is that some people are so impressed by the inclusion of minute details from the comics that they're willing to completely overlook the fact that movie was lacking in the mystery and excitement necessary (imo) to really due Batman justice. I'm glad they're taking the franchise in a serious direction, but they have some major catching up to do in terms of entertainment value. Horribly conceived (and executed) action sequences, coupled with stilted dialogue and cornball lines left me wanting more, to say the least, hehe.

Aside from The Man who Falls, I haven't read a single comic in my life. I know a lot about them from what I read on these boards, but I actually haven't read them. I'm more into the DCAU. Regardless, I think the film's inclusion of elements of the Batman stories only enhance the story-telling, not define it. They aren't the "REAL reson why Batman Begins is so well regarded." Because, if they were, how do explain the millions of other viewers (most of whom aren't comic followers) who enjoyed the film? And what about most of the critics?

As for entertainment value, I guess you just have different tastes than I do.

EDIT: Oh, and I don't think you are in any position to tell us that BB had "horribly conceived and exected action sequences," especially when you take into consideration the action sequences in B89 and BR.

Just to clarify, I've always disliked the Burton movies. The man hasn't made a genuinely good film in a very long time.

[The Chairman]

Can't people accept that both Begins and Burton's films are great movies? Both present very different interprtations of the character, and both work well within the mythos. Batman can be interpreted numerous different ways. Burton's films, TAS, Begins and even Schumacher's films are all valid interpretations (even if Schumacher's films are garbage in its purest form).

[TheGrayGhost]

Can't people accept that both Begins and Burton's films are great movies? Both present very different interprtations of the character, and both work well within the mythos. Batman can be interpreted numerous different ways. Burton's films, TAS, Begins and even Schumacher's films are all valid interpretations (even if Schumacher's films are garbage in its purest form).

I can accept that both are interpretations of the character (whether or not they are "valid" is in the eye of the beholder), but I just happen to think that the BB interpretation is superior and more in line with what I envision to be Batman (the DCAU.) And I cannot accept that "Burton's films are great movies" either. Because in my opinion, they aren't. But I don't make threads about it.

[warren_sparta27]

Begins>Burton>>>dog poop>>Schumacher

[El Payaso]

Even when I could contradict many of the points here exposed... you had it coming 'myway'. Yours is just an assumption. I love Burtons movies, even so, I liked Begins for its own cinematographic merits.

[millennium movies]

Myway , i totally agree. Still best version for me remains BTAS! B89 is close second.

[The Kid]

(Disclaimer: Don't read this if you have an almost religious devotion to batman begins.)

Begins' biggest defenders are proabably residing at this board so you knew posting your thoughts about the flm would be challenged and crushed with passion, didn't you? I'm sure you did. Brave of you, but foolish...

Anyway to throw my body on the flames, I think it's so well regarded for the simple fact that it's not batman and robin or batman forever. It took liberties with the source and i think it wasn't all that great except for the acting by some great performers, but it's made out to be the best superhero movie ever with everybody ignoring it's flaws every time while taking out a highlighter on the burton movies to mark every single misstep to glorify begins. I hate when people around here do that. It's a given that a batman movie made now would have to be better than the previous ones if it was to do well. So why act like it's such a lucky pot of gold that the movie wasn't miserable crap? (THEY HAD TO SCREW IT UP TWICE TO GET IT BEFORE MAKING AN ACTUALLY GOOD ONE) Wow...I don't know what's up with that, but I give begins an average rating. It didn't send me to heaven the way the hulk did, or sm2 or even the first serioius batman film did but it was good.

I just don't get the huge religious praise being poured on it by some is all. I don't get it. It confuses me too which does hurt a little. I'm grateful it wasn't shoomakers movie, and was actually quite good and full of seriousness mostly, but that shouldn't be its greatest strength. The next one should be completely awesome without needing comparision to older flicks to boost it up. Yeah, believe it.

I was around here when begins came out and left and right everyone was shooting cream into each others mouths over this movie that I thought was decent batman, but nothing too spectacular... And before you throw fruit at me, let me say I liked katie holmes in the movie back then while everyone said she was crap. So I just don't know what is making my brain work so different than the rest of the internet... whatever.

[The Bruce]

I was pro-Burton until I sat down and saw 89 again...It made me go from a casual comic fan to diehard as a kid - But seeing it know made me feel dirty inside :(

BB is amazing and way more true to Batman - even his campy version.

[El Payaso]

I was pro-Burton until I sat down and saw 89 again...It made me go from a casual comic fan to diehard as a kid - But seeing it know made me feel dirty inside :(

Go to a good shrink.

[Katsuro]

I was pro-Burton until I sat down and saw 89 again...It made me go from a casual comic fan to diehard as a kid - But seeing it know made me feel dirty inside :(

BB is amazing and way more true to Batman - even his campy version.

Yeah, B89 just doens't seem to have aged well. I mean... music by Prince?!? wtf?

[millennium movies]

(Disclaimer: Don't read this if you have an almost religious devotion to batman begins.)

Begins' biggest defenders are proabably residing at this board so you knew posting your thoughts about the flm would be challenged and crushed with passion, didn't you? I'm sure you did. Brave of you, but foolish...

Anyway to throw my body on the flames, I think it's so well regarded for the simple fact that it's not batman and robin or batman forever. It took liberties with the source and i think it wasn't all that great except for the acting by some great performers, but it's made out to be the best superhero movie ever with everybody ignoring it's flaws every time while taking out a highlighter on the burton movies to mark every single misstep to glorify begins. I hate when people around here do that. It's a given that a batman movie made now would have to be better than the previous ones if it was to do well. So why act like it's such a lucky pot of gold that the movie wasn't miserable crap? (THEY HAD TO SCREW IT UP TWICE TO GET IT BEFORE MAKING AN ACTUALLY GOOD ONE) Wow...I don't know what's up with that, but I give begins an average rating. It didn't send me to heaven the way the hulk did, or sm2 or even the first serioius batman film did but it was good.

I just don't get the huge religious praise being poured on it by some is all. I don't get it. It confuses me too which does hurt a little. I'm grateful it wasn't shoomakers movie, and was actually quite good and full of seriousness mostly, but that shouldn't be its greatest strength. The next one should be completely awesome without needing comparision to older flicks to boost it up. Yeah, believe it.

I was around here when begins came out and left and right everyone was shooting cream into each others mouths over this movie that I thought was decent batman, but nothing too spectacular... And before you throw fruit at me, let me say I liked katie holmes in the movie back then while everyone said she was crap. So I just don't know what is making my brain work so different than the rest of the internet... whatever.

Bravo! Thanks you man, i totally agree! :up: :up:

[millennium movies]

Hey, maybe in a few years time, maybe when BB2 comes out , if it happens to be very much better, people will finally see BB as it really is and stop sugarcoating it! Until then i doubt they will really give it a more investigative/deeper look. Just thinking of the fear gaz effect makes me want to laugh...

[Beelze]

"Just thinking of the fear gaz effect makes me want to laugh..."

You have a malfunctioning sense of humor!

[Hype Police]

(Disclaimer: Don't read this if you have an almost religious devotion to batman begins.)

Begins' biggest defenders are proabably residing at this board so you knew posting your thoughts about the flm would be challenged and crushed with passion, didn't you? I'm sure you did. Brave of you, but foolish...

Anyway to throw my body on the flames, I think it's so well regarded for the simple fact that it's not batman and robin or batman forever. It took liberties with the source and i think it wasn't all that great except for the acting by some great performers, but it's made out to be the best superhero movie ever with everybody ignoring it's flaws every time while taking out a highlighter on the burton movies to mark every single misstep to glorify begins. I hate when people around here do that. It's a given that a batman movie made now would have to be better than the previous ones if it was to do well. So why act like it's such a lucky pot of gold that the movie wasn't miserable crap? (THEY HAD TO SCREW IT UP TWICE TO GET IT BEFORE MAKING AN ACTUALLY GOOD ONE) Wow...I don't know what's up with that, but I give begins an average rating. It didn't send me to heaven the way the hulk did, or sm2 or even the first serioius batman film did but it was good.

I just don't get the huge religious praise being poured on it by some is all. I don't get it. It confuses me too which does hurt a little. I'm grateful it wasn't shoomakers movie, and was actually quite good and full of seriousness mostly, but that shouldn't be its greatest strength. The next one should be completely awesome without needing comparision to older flicks to boost it up. Yeah, believe it.

I was around here when begins came out and left and right everyone was shooting cream into each others mouths over this movie that I thought was decent batman, but nothing too spectacular... And before you throw fruit at me, let me say I liked katie holmes in the movie back then while everyone said she was crap. So I just don't know what is making my brain work so different than the rest of the internet... whatever.

You liked the Hulk so your opinion isn't worth anything.

[The Kid]

And the only one that is, is "Batman begins is teh best!ever why make a sequel? they'll just tarnish begins... all praise begins!11 wwooot bale dammit"

I already know. I'm ok with begins except for obvious complaints most have made about it... but how overrated it is...with reasons mostly hung up on how much of a miracle it is that this time, they got batman right even though certain things were still changed that personally i don't give a crap about, but others seem to not notice when they claim it's perfectly translated from the source. Well Im rambling again...

edit: the hulk movie really knocked me out when I saw it years ago. So whatever, I'm not even going to ask why liking it automatically disqualifies me from the opinionlympics.

Just leave it at this: I don't care what you think either.

[Two-Face]

"Overrated"?? hmm go watch the movie again little boy.

[El Payaso]

Little boys and drunk guys always tell the truth.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Overrated?

Sure.......whatever you say.......(rolling eyes..)

[millennium movies]

Then whats this i see above ^ ? Overrated? Indeed!

"Just thinking of the fear gaz effect makes me want to laugh..."

You have a malfunctioning sense of humor!

uh huh...

[LostSon88]

Batman 89' sucks. :p

(just a joke y'all, relax.)

[millennium movies]

lol ^

[The Kid]

Overrated?

Sure.......whatever you say.......(rolling eyes..)

Ok, I'll change my mind right now. I say it's a perfect movie. Now what?

[El Payaso]

Wow, it worked! :D

[theMan-Bat]

:rolleyes:

[Nightwing1977]

I liked Batman Begins but I'm definitely in the Burton camp and I think that the REAL reason why BB is so well regarded is that some people are so impressed by the inclusion of minute details from the comics that they're willing to completely overlook the fact that movie was lacking in the mystery and excitement necessary (imo) to really due Batman justice.



It was more than just details from the comics. It where they finally treated Batman right this time & the story was better. And exactly how was the movie lacking the mystery & excitement? Because it wasn't the same as Burton's films? I disagree completely there on how many of us (including me) were impressed because it was true to the comic with details & such.

I'm glad they're taking the franchise in a serious direction, but they have some major catching up to do in terms of entertainment value.



That what the sequels are for. ;) I think many don't find BB have much entertainment value, is because they want too much action. BB not suppose to have a lot of action, since it the beginning of his story. Like I said eariler, the sequels should give us more than what BB did.

Horribly conceived (and executed) action sequences, coupled with stilted dialogue and cornball lines left me wanting more, to say the least, hehe.



Horrible action sequences? We seen that too many times with Burton & Schmuacher. I applause Nolan for taking the action in a different way. I wanted the action something new & I got that with BB. And you think the dialogue are stilted & the lines are cheesy? You forgot about Burton's one.

"Eat floor, high fiber."

"And where is the Batman? He's at home washing his tights!". <----Uggh! :o

"I was their number one child, but they treated me like number two."


Thing is, superhero movies is known for having lot of cheesy lines. Even the best comic book movie ever made have 'em. It common nowdays anyway, so don't act like BB have cheesy lines like it the only comic book movie to have one. :p

[Mr. Socko]

The critics love it because it's so grounded to reality.

[theMan-Bat]

Lol.

[theMan-Bat]

Yeah, B89 just doens't seem to have aged well. I mean... music by Prince?!? wtf?

LOL. Watch what you say about Prince..you might get smacked!
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f341/themanbat/bigchickpic007.jpg

[Ultimate Movie-Man]

Keep in mind everybody; Yes, this thread is the antithesis of the pre-existing and similarly named thread, but it's all in good fun and love of Batman. I liked Batman Begins but I'm definitely in the Burton camp and I think that the REAL reason why BB is so well regarded is that some people are so impressed by the inclusion of minute details from the comics that they're willing to completely overlook the fact that movie was lacking in the mystery and excitement necessary (imo) to really due Batman justice. I'm glad they're taking the franchise in a serious direction, but they have some major catching up to do in terms of entertainment value. Horribly conceived (and executed) action sequences, coupled with stilted dialogue and cornball lines left me wanting more, to say the least, hehe.

Personally I liked the realism but that's just me :o

[theMan-Bat]

Realism? Like the Tumbler roof surfing, without drooping into somebody's apartment? :o

[Ultimate Movie-Man]

Well there was some poetic justice...is that the term...dude...it's a fantasy in a made up city...but it was more real than any other batman out there.

[mano012sg]

Aside from The Man who Falls, I haven't read a single comic in my life. I know a lot about them from what I read on these boards, but I actually haven't read them. I'm more into the DCAU. Regardless, I think the film's inclusion of elements of the Batman stories only enhance the story-telling, not define it. They aren't the "REAL reson why Batman Begins is so well regarded." Because, if they were, how do explain the millions of other viewers (most of whom aren't comic followers) who enjoyed the film? And what about most of the critics?

As for entertainment value, I guess you just have different tastes than I do.

EDIT: Oh, and I don't think you are in any position to tell us that BB had "horribly conceived and exected action sequences," especially when you take into consideration the action sequences in B89 and BR.

Just to clarify, I've always disliked the Burton movies. The man hasn't made a genuinely good film in a very long time.
Burton film, my friend..., doesn't talk about batman's origins ALMOST at all. all we get are flashes and that's it. I know coz i got introduced to Batman (so was no preconceived notions) by watching that film. BAts comes in and does his thing, growls , no thats BB, tells the thief who he is and tells him to tell his men. All we expect is when batman will come out. its from the gothamites point of view...and does little justice to BAtman. the BTAS was good in that respect. adventures with troubles he faced as batman. + graphics.it had the most mystique.

BB however, is the first film that goes into the psyche of the bat. which is what the whole thing is about. there's no mystique, true...but what kinda mystique are you expecting? if its BTAS style, relax...BB was just the beginning.

[El Payaso]

BB however, is the first film that goes into the psyche of the bat.

False. It did, but it's not the only one.

You say that because of the amount of screentime dedicated to the origin?

[batmaluco]

Even BF (which I dislike) went into the psyque of the Bat.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Ok, I'll change my mind right now. I say it's a perfect movie. Now what?

(cracks open a case of beer) Welcome, brother. Welcome.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f341/themanbat/bigchickpic007.jpg
Is that Hulk Hogan????!!!! A bodyguard back in the day, huh??




Realism? Like the Tumbler roof surfing, without drooping into somebody's apartment? :o


Actually, the Tumbler interface system provides information on which rooftops can hold the weight of the Tumbler. Not far fetched, since building plans should provide information on weight distribution and such. So, that's the explanation for that.

Even BF (which I dislike) went into the psyque of the Bat.


It actually went pretty well in there, but the deleted scenes are proof it could have been so much better. But, yeah....I think BF went into Bats' psyche probably more than any of the PRE-Begins films.

[Mr. Socko]

WTF, is that really Hulk Hogan!?!?!

[ChrisBaleBatman]

With further study.....it's can;t be. I don't think Hogan has ever let himself go that much.

[theMan-Bat]

That's not Hulk Hogan or a redneck biker, lol. That's Big Chick Huntsberry. Prince's bodyguard and friend back in the day. Famous for beating up phographers who had the audacity to take a picture of Prince, lol. "I'd smack 'em once, and they'd come right back so's I could smack 'em again! I was used to smacking people, I thought, Man, this is too easy, I'm gonna have to make some trouble! I'd hit em, down they went. I'd jump down and kick 'em about three or four times, ram there heads into the wall, four or five times." Prince was accused of sicking his bodyguard on people.

[kenellard]

Hey, maybe in a few years time, maybe when BB2 comes out , if it happens to be very much better, people will finally see BB as it really is and stop sugarcoating it! Until then i doubt they will really give it a more investigative/deeper look. Just thinking of the fear gaz effect makes me want to laugh...

oh my freaking god! I completely agree and I've said this before, it's what I call "episode 1" syndrome, people rant and rave about it because there hasn't been a decent bat-movie for over ten years, ignoring the fact that BB was really at best, pretty average. When BB2 comes out hopefully the honeymoon will be over for begins, we'll start seeing polls on here like "BB or BF?" oh, oh I can't wait....

[Mr. Socko]

That's not Hulk Hogan or a redneck biker, lol. That's Big Chick Huntsberry. Prince's bodyguard and friend back in the day. Famous for beating up phographers who had the audacity to take a picture of Prince, lol. "I'd smack 'em once, and they'd come right back so's I could smack 'em again! I was used to smacking people, I thought, Man, this is too easy, I'm gonna have to make some trouble! I'd hit em, down they went. I'd jump down and kick 'em about three or four times, ram there heads into the wall, four or five times." Prince was accused of sicking his bodyguard on people.

Lol

I knew it wasn't Hogan because he didn't have hair on his head in 89.

[Bathead]

I don't know, it seems a good number of Burton fans seem threatened by the popularity of Begins and somehow feel the need to belittle it by saying it's popular amongst "fanboys" (meant to be an insult) for all the wrong reasons, because "Doggonit, I like B '89 better, and I'm always right, so they must be wrong, let's see what reasons I can make up to support my position that Begins is not as good." Relax, Burton fans, so more people seem to like Begins more than B'89? What the hell should you care? Same goes for those Begins fans who get their panties in a bunch when someone says B '89 is a better movie. I really don't see the necessity for being so condescending.

[Mr. Socko]

I love Batman '89 just as much as Batman Begins.

[The Kid]

I love 89 more than IMO overrated begins (like how SM1 is overrated and you know it) and BTAS more than both of them.
and
Don't get me started on how much I love Adam West's Batman though. He's better than all of them }:B.

Now Begins two wiil probably be the best batman movie ever. Let's see why in the next sentence. It's just got everything set-up perfectly for it now, much like begins, without the extra need to prove itself as a viable franchise. The older movies proved what worked and what did not. The last film left audiences eager for more batman and his girlfriend's fun adventures, or atleast me. And anything that was criticized about begins like the invisible fight scenes and shakey cam etc. etc. will be rectified for Begins 2, no doubt.

Now Bathead, I feel exactly the same way about what you say but backwards: Beginners belittling 89, arguably the reason begins exists today. I understand 89 was a different from the comic. I'm not that stupid, but so many beginners in old begins threads were putting it down in completely irrelevant ways to the thread's topic, it was just cruel. But we do that to shoemaker's movies all the time, so I guess I shouldn't be so sensitive. Maybe there's one person out there who actually liked those things. I know I loved Forever as a kid, but can't stand to watch it now because of how stupid it is.

I'm just sick of the burton bashing out of no-where when I'm reading a decent thread that has nothing to do with burton's movie. am I the only one? I don'tknow.

[kenellard]

I agree, and I think it's a bad sign when someone starts talking crap about one of burton's or even one of schumacher's bat-films as an argument for how great begins is, it's a sorry state of affairs

[Bathead]

Well, as I said in my post, it goes both ways. I don't see the need for *anyone*, Burton *or* Nolan fan to be condescending and insulting to each other. I only mentioned the Burton fans first (and not exclusively, re-read my post), because the thread was started by a Burton fan who felt it necessary to bash Begins and it's fans. It wasn't.

[El Payaso]

And of course one Burton fan justify the whole bunch to be harshed.

Well, I was the first one saying the inconvenience of the thread.

[The Kid]

It's like my thing with the hulk. Some say if you like one movie, you can't like the other or you don't have any integrity because you like x and the majority thought x was poop. That's bs. I like both begins and 89 and even dig Forever if I'm nostaligic enough. Does that make me saying begins rocks, mean anything less than if someone who hates the old movies says the same thing?

edit: i removed the ranting bits.

[Mr. Socko]

I still can enjoy Batman Forever.

As for Batman & Robin, when I look at it as a campy spoof of Batman like Adam West then I can really enjoy it too. It's when people start to look at B&R like a serious Batman movie when they begin to hate it. I personally think Batman & Robin is on the same line as Adam West's Batman and is just as good in terms of being goofy.

But I still love making Shoemaker Bat-nipple jokes.

[Bathead]

And of course one Burton fan justify the whole bunch to be harshed.

Well, I was the first one saying the inconvenience of the thread.

Read my post again, I said *some* Burton fans, not The "whole bunch", and I'm not basing that on just this one person. I've seen attitudes like that from more than a few Burton fans on these very boards. And again, trying to be fair, the same from *some* Nolan fans. It's not cool for *either*.

[The Kid]

Maybe I'm too paranoid or something, but I think that whole "why do we fall" line was a gentle jab at the past bat-movies. I can't believe it took me that long to realize that... maybe it's not though.

[kenellard]

maybe you're reading into it just a little too much!

[El Payaso]

Maybe I'm too paranoid or something, but I think that whole "why do we fall" line was a gentle jab at the past bat-movies. I can't believe it took me that long to realize that... maybe it's not though.

Hahhahahaha.

[Nightwing1977]

Maybe I'm too paranoid or something, but I think that whole "why do we fall" line was a gentle jab at the past bat-movies. I can't believe it took me that long to realize that... maybe it's not though.

LOL! I don't see that. I think you're thinking too hard there. ;)

[Two-Face]

Maybe I'm too paranoid or something, but I think that whole "why do we fall" line was a gentle jab at the past bat-movies. I can't believe it took me that long to realize that... maybe it's not though.


No I don't think so...

[batmaluco]

Maybe I'm too paranoid or something, but I think that whole "why do we fall" line was a gentle jab at the past bat-movies. I can't believe it took me that long to realize that... maybe it's not though.
lol, I don't think so but it's so funny to think this way.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Actually.....yeah, it is pretty funny.

Paranoid Bat-fans.....hhmmm.......

[El Payaso]

It was the Bat-with great power comes great responsability.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Don't get the Bat angry.....you won't like him when he's angry.............