Joe Chill Arrested?

[ChrisBaleBatman]

SPOILERS AHEAD




All right, so I just picked up and read the new Infinite Crisis #6......and I noticed that at the end, what appears to have happened is that some of the Earths got meshed and became one. Atleast, the box panel saying NEW EARTH seems to point to that.

Anyways, in the third to final page, where the Earth seems to be exploding to Kingdom Come. There's a few crystals flying around...and in a few on the left side, there are images of what appears to be a young boy crying in the arms of guy in a suit. There's a newspaper headline saying JOE CHILL ARRESTED WAYNE MURDER.

My question is.....do you think they should put this into continuity? Maybe even falling in with Batman Begins...? What you guys think?

[Castle]

It would fit nicely into what is happening with Batman right now. Its not a huge effect because he still would be the same batman, but it is a plot point to explore with some interest. I say go for it

[Mee]

I've always liked the idea that Bats doesn't know who did it and is constantly searching. But having him know is fine too.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, I'm still not sure if it is continuity......those images at the end of Infinite Crisis #6 suggests it might be.

And, since OYL is still in it's early stages.....and *52 has yet to hit, it could be a part of continuity......

Personally, I prefer Bruce to know who killed his parents. However, Chill needs to be dead at the hands of another, that way vengeance isn't even an actual option for Bruce. Even in today's Batman, with all his morals (I mean, maybe even higher morals than BB Batman) he STILL killed Chill when he got the chance in BATMAN/SUPERMAN......and he probably would any chance he get. Chill is where it all begins and ends for Batman,.......so having Batman look beyond his own personal pain and vengeance might be moral methodical and more psychological.

[theMan-Bat]

Joe Chill arrested and reformed, he and Bruce become the odd couple, lol.

NO, they shouldn't put this into continuity.

[Flame on!]

No, this is were Begins failed for me (the same applies to the Punisher too). Batman should never find his parents killer.

[theMan-Bat]

No, this is were Begins failed for me (the same applies to the Punisher too). Batman should never find his parents killer.

Exactly!

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Why not, though?

As for the Punisher.....nah, I think it's BEST for him to keep motoring after vengeance. Just become Punishment......seeking faceless criminals in the night is too wasted on me.

[Fledermaus]

Did it name Batmans parents murderer in Superman/Batman?

[ChrisBaleBatman]

No.

Basically, what happened was that both Supes and Bats had gone through some crazy time travel stuff......they ended up having to watch they're origins on earth happen. Superman had to watch his spaceship land in the cornfield, and watch his parents fnd him.........and Batman had to watch his parents get killed.....again.

So...what do you think he did? He jumped down, took the gun out of the mugger's hand and shot him dead. Breaking up the whole time continuim thingy.....or something. Bottomline, he killed the dude when he got the chance.

[theMan-Bat]

Why not, though?

Because it takes away much of the tragedy of Batman and the mystery, if the man who murdered his parents is caught and simply arrested. It's all resolved. When the case is unsolved it keeps Batman haunted. It's much stronger for the killer to be unknown and uncaught to this day. It opens the killer up into a symbol, allows us to see him the way Bruce's subconscious has always perceived him, as Crime personified. Keeping Waynes' killer from Batman indefinitely adds a lot to his anguish, which is a big part of what makes Batman so interesting. Not knowing the killer adds to the Batman mythos, suggesting that he sees his parents' unknown killer in every criminal's face. Denny O'Neil, as editor, made the killer unknown post-crisis in Zero Hour. Batman not knowing is a nod to the original origin by the creators Bill Finger and Bob Kane in 1939 where the killer is unknown, 8 years before the Joe Chill story in 1948 by Whitney Ellsworth and Lew Schwartz. Chill was a lameass. In Zero Hour / Zero Month 1994, Batman, through a time anomoly, learned that Chill did not kill his parents (Detective #678 (1994)).

[Fledermaus]

No.

Basically, what happened was that both Supes and Bats had gone through some crazy time travel stuff......they ended up having to watch they're origins on earth happen. Superman had to watch his spaceship land in the cornfield, and watch his parents fnd him.........and Batman had to watch his parents get killed.....again.

So...what do you think he did? He jumped down, took the gun out of the mugger's hand and shot him dead. Breaking up the whole time continuim thingy.....or something. Bottomline, he killed the dude when he got the chance.

But the Batman that killed his parents murderer wasn't "our" Batman. That Batman had been raised as Supermans brother and was already a murderer and a dictator. I have to really wonder if "our" Batman would kill his parents murderer. He hasn't killed anyone elses murderer.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Because it takes away much of the tragedy of Batman and the mystery, if the man who murdered his parents is caught and simply arrested. It's all resolved. When the case is unsolved it keeps Batman haunted. It's much stronger for the killer to be unknown and uncaught to this day. It opens the killer up into a symbol, allows us to see him the way Bruce's subconscious has always perceived him, as Crime personified. Keeping Waynes' killer from Batman indefinitely adds a lot to his anguish, which is a big part of what makes Batman so interesting. Not knowing the killer adds to the Batman mythos, suggesting that he sees his parents' unknown killer in every criminal's face. Denny O'Neil, as editor, made the killer unknown post-crisis in Zero Hour. Batman not knowing is a nod to the original origin by the creators Bill Finger and Bob Kane in 1939 where the killer is unknown, 8 years before the Joe Chill story in 1948 by Whitney Ellsworth and Lew Schwartz. Chill was a lameass. In Zero Hour / Zero Month 1994, Batman, through a time anomoly, learned that Chill did not kill his parents (Detective #678 (1994)).

I dunno about that.....I think it actually gives even more tragedy that his parent's killer is found, but Bruce can never actually get his vengeance.

For me, I think it makes Bruce's journey more psychological. Vengeance isn't an option.......so, where's he going to go now? Justice.

I just think it's too personal, him knowing that the killer is out there somewhere.....and the chance of him finding him.

Two rules of thought though, but I could defintely see why one would favor the unknown.

But the Batman that killed his parents murderer wasn't "our" Batman. That Batman had been raised as Supermans brother and was already a murderer and a dictator. I have to really wonder if "our" Batman would kill his parents murderer. He hasn't killed anyone elses murderer

C'mon........he would. The guy destroyed his life.....he's the cause for everything going the way it has for Bruce. I think he would most definetly lose it, and kill the dude. I think everyone has the capacity to kill, even Bruce. The thing is of how deep a cord it strikes.....and getting vengeance on the guy who killed his mom and dad.....yeah. I think he would.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

So....I haven't got my IC#7 yet.......but I've heard it's official. That the origin has been changed to Batman Begins-like.

True?

[super85]

seems like it, I believe DC head honco Dan DiDio confirmed it at Newsarama.com, check out the latest and final "Crisis Counseling" article at that site.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

All right...I'll check it out.

[ArmsHeldOut]

All right...I'll check it out.

Here's a direct Alex Luthor quote taken from Infinite Crisis 7.

"This isn't Earth-One, Superboy. It never really was. And now this "unified world", this new Earth, has been altered again."

"There are changes within its history. Wonder Woman helped found the Justice League of America once again. Batman still fights for Gotham, even though his parents' killer was caught. There are recorded rumors of Superman's activities before his appearance in Metropolis. And that's just the beginning."

There ya have it. Joe Chill has been restored as the killer of the Waynes in current continuity. Did the success of Batman Begins have anything to do with this? I'd put money on it.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Yeah, I think the reasoning bechind what happened in Batman Begins had to do something with it. Especially with the fact that DC COMICS worked closely with David Goyer and Christopher Nolan....they might have gotten chummy with the idea.

Also, it sounds like the origin of the JL seems to be more like the JLU.

And......it sounds like Smallville may have been allowed into the mix as well. Maybe giving some room for a career in superhero-ism pre-Superman for Clark.

All I know is, there's going to be a lot of re-telling going on. Even though Chill has been allowed back into continuity, and we know he was caught while Bruce was still a kid, but the question would remain is how much did that effect Bruce's journey? How closely related is his origin NOW to Batman Begins?

[David Ford, RPD]

No, this is were Begins failed for me (the same applies to the Punisher too). Batman should never find his parents killer.

Why, though? He's the world's greatest detective, and he can't even figure out who killed his own parents? Let us be honest--Zero Hour made the choice just to amke Batman more "mysterious".

[Bathead]

I always liked the original idea where Batman finally finds Joe Chill, confronts him and removes his mask to reveal himself to Chill as Bruce Wayne, saying "You killed my parents, and now I'm going to bring you to justice." Chill freaks, runs away to find help from his fellow crooks, tells them how he basically was responsible for creating their worst enemy and how Batman is now after him, the crooks reacting in fear and anger, gun him down only to realize after it's too late that they never bothered to find out Batman's secret ID. So, even though Bats finds his parents' killer, he never gets to bring him in to pay for his crime. Classic.

[javi1024]

Here's a direct Alex Luthor quote taken from Infinite Crisis 7.

"This isn't Earth-One, Superboy. It never really was. And now this "unified world", this new Earth, has been altered again."

"There are changes within its history. Wonder Woman helped found the Justice League of America once again. Batman still fights for Gotham, even though his parents' killer was caught. There are recorded rumors of Superman's activities before his appearance in Metropolis. And that's just the beginning."

There ya have it. Joe Chill has been restored as the killer of the Waynes in current continuity. Did the success of Batman Begins have anything to do with this? I'd put money on it.
well i guess now if my friends ask me who killed Bruce Wayne's parents i can say "watch Batman Begins"

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Why, though? He's the world's greatest detective, and he can't even figure out who killed his own parents? Let us be honest--Zero Hour made the choice just to amke Batman more "mysterious".

Well, supposedly Gotham City PD didn't do a good job of taking care of evidence and so on......which is kinda a cop out. I think your right, making Bruce's parents killer unknown might had just been a move to make him darker.....more at war. Angrier, all that.

I always liked the original idea where Batman finally finds Joe Chill, confronts him and removes his mask to reveal himself to Chill as Bruce Wayne, saying "You killed my parents, and now I'm going to bring you to justice." Chill freaks, runs away to find help from his fellow crooks, tells them how he basically was responsible for creating their worst enemy and how Batman is now after him, the crooks reacting in fear and anger, gun him down only to realize after it's too late that they never bothered to find out Batman's secret ID. So, even though Bats finds his parents' killer, he never gets to bring him in to pay for his crime. Classic.


Yeah, that's the original way it went down, right?

I know that Chill was caught when Bruce was a kid, like Batman Begins, so that's worth mentioning. It's different this time around, compared to when Chill was never caught.

well i guess now if my friends ask me who killed Bruce Wayne's parents i can say "watch Batman Begins"


Yup.

Pretty cool to see the comics follow the movies, for once. I can't wait to see how different Batman's origin will be changed compared to PRE-Infinite Crisis.

[The Batman]

Best.Retcon.EVER

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Totally.

[ArmsHeldOut]

Pretty cool to see the comics follow the movies, for once. I can't wait to see how different Batman's origin will be changed compared to PRE-Infinite Crisis.

Yep. They're definitely up to something.

Plans for Smallville's Chloe to appear in the comics are in the works, as well.

I hope we get to see a few more flashbacks to Wayne's youth in the sequel to Begins.

[nite-owl]

Best.Retcon.EVER

Defitnley:up:

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Yup.

Now....haw many people think that Batman Begins had a lot to do with this one?

[theMan-Bat]

Of course the new movie version has everything to do with this.:o

So now the real question is how much of Batman's real comics history has been thrown out of official continuity for the new movie version Post-Infinity Crisis?

[David Ford, RPD]

Of course the new movie version has everything to do with this.:o

So now the real question is how much of Batman's real comics history has been thrown out of official continuity for the new movie version Post-Infinity Crisis?

All of it, if we're lucky.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, if you think about it.....the Begins origin wouldn't really change that much of the comic origin. The biggest thing was Chill. Adding Ra's al Ghul's involvement would really ruin the comics relationship either. Infact, it could be great considering how Ra's "figured" out Bruce was Batman.

[theMan-Bat]

Adding the Begins Ra's training to the comics throws out alot of Batman's comic history. Batman #232 (1971) "The Daughter of the Demon" by Ra's creators Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams is clearly the first time Batman meets Ra's. "Who are you?" he says. Ra's figured out Bruce Wayne is Batman by a simple matter of deduction and research. He reasoned that the Batman had to be wealthy and that he needed certain kinds of equipment. Therefore, he merely had his organization investigate and found out Bruce Wayne alone bought what the Batman had to have. Batman says "Okay...That's a hole I'll plug! I'm surprised someone didn't think of it years ago." He even says to Ra's "For years I've trained myself to concentrate on the thing at hand." not, "For years you trained me".

Blind Justice (1989), written by Sam Hamm (Batman '89), shows Bruce was trained in martial arts by old asian martial arts master Chu Chin Li. French Private Investigator Ducard only trained Bruce as a detective. The detective part of Bruce's training is not even mentioned in Begins. How he trains to become the World's Greatest Detective.

[David Ford, RPD]

Adding the Begins Ra's training to the comics throws out alot of Batman's comic history. Batman #232 (1971) "The Daughter of the Demon" by Ra's creators Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams is clearly the first time Batman meets Ra's. "Who are you?" he says. Ra's figured out Bruce Wayne is Batman by a simple matter of deduction and research. He reasoned that the Batman had to be wealthy and that he needed certain kinds of equipment. Therefore, he merely had his organization investigate and found out Bruce Wayne alone bought what the Batman had to have. Batman says "Okay...That's a hole I'll plug! I'm surprised someone didn't think of it years ago." He even says to Ra's "For years I've trained myself to concentrate on the thing at hand." not, "For years you trained me".

Blind Justice (1989), written by Sam Hamm (Batman '89), shows Bruce was trained in martial arts by old asian martial arts master Chu Chin Li. French Private Investigator Ducard only trained Bruce as a detective. The detective part of Bruce's training is not even mentioned in Begins. How he trains to become the World's Greatest Detective.

The O'Niel story is out of continuity anyway, and Blind Justice could easile be retconned. I don't see what the big deal is-- a BB-style, pre-Year One type of story hasn't really been told and should be fleshed out.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

See....it could all EASILY be retconned.

The Blind Justice stuff, being trained, could be stops he made along the way to Ra's.

And the beginning between Ra's and Bruce....just erase how he figured it out. It was kinda dumb anyways, the 'ol...."I figured out you were Batman by dedcution" trick. Just add the Ra's training....and it makes MORE sense when he comes to Bruce's door like that. Obviousyl, retcon would have to be done on those things....but it's not like it's erasing it all.

[theMan-Bat]

Why change the source material, scrap decades of continuity, to fit a movie? Why betray the original material?

[MatchesMalone]

Because continuity itself is limiting and pointless. Continuity in these things is stupid. 70 years of stories by different writers with different takes and different ideas cannot be fit into the same history. And retcons like Crisis, Zero Hour, and IC are what they are: incredibly lame attempts to "wipe the board clean" and give new creators a chance to play. But they are the lamest stories themselves. Multiverse? Hypertime? Superboy punching a timewall? Seriously?

Would it hurt to make these stories like Bond? Where a loose framework exists, but stories stand on their own and creators are allowed to change, edit, adapt, or do what they feel is right as creators, in one story?

Why is continuity so damn important, anyway?

PS: The "original material" involves Batman confronting Chill and never getting revenge - just like Begins, just like the new continuity.

[theMan-Bat]

Continuity is limiting and that's why there was Elseworlds stories in the 90's, for things that can't, couldn't and shouldn't exist in the mainstream continuity because it would screw up decades of continuity and betray the original material.

Why is continuity important at all? So the original material is not betrayed because I think it's to good to betray. And so things make sense.

The killer was unknown in the original material by the creators, Bill Finger and Bob Kane, just like post-Zero Hour.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/rudeboy-/kaneBatman001-0120The20Legend20of20.jpg

Also, Joe Chill was never arrested in the original Joe Chill story.
Chill should be out of continuity because the Chill text contradicted the original material. Where as the original asserts, for example, that both Thomas and Martha Wayne died from bullet wounds, the Joe Chill text asserted that only Thomas Wayne was shot and died from a bullet wound, while Martha Wayne died from shock.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/rudeboy-/spoofjoechill-batman_047c-09.jpg
Editor Mort Weisinger told the writers what kind of stories they had to write. Mort would come up with plots by asking children what they think should happen in the next issue. Jack Schiff was the editor of the Batman books in the late 40's and 50's. Jack Schiff left Bill Finger alone. He never told him what stories he had to write. He never interfered in a negative way like Mort Weisinger. Mort edited the Superman books in the 1950s and ‘60s and worked in the same office as Jack Schiff. Mort's fiery personality completely overwhelmed Jack's more introverted personality and he told Jack what to put into Batman. Mort was also friendlier with the boss, Jack Liebowitz, which might also have influenced Jack into listening to Mort. Bill Finger had no control by the late 40's. He just wrote what he was told.

[MatchesMalone]

Your blind adherence to continuity is wretched to me. It appears to me like you have no ability to think for yourself, or formulate your own take on a character and need to be force-fed comfort stories that stick as close as possible to what has come before.

At least, that's my take on what you have claimed is your reason for needing continuity. "So it makes sense". Give me a break.

PS: All your jabbering about ole Mort and his antics, and your wonderfully anal-rententive jawing about what Martha Wayne died from and how that incredibly insignficant discrepancy destroys your faith in Mankind doesn't make any difference. The history of the character has changed so many times.

I suppose you hate the fact that Superman flies, right? Because that was not introduced by Siegel and Shuster. It was introduced in the Fleischer cartoons. And Clark Kent should work at the Daily Star and should not have Jonathan and Martha Kent as adopted parents. Siegel and Shuster had him at an orphanage.

[theMan-Bat]

Your a funny guy. You really hate continuity. Again, that's what Elseworlds was for.

Superman going from leaping to flying is a natural expansion. I love the Fleischers Superman animation and have the whole thing on DVD. The Complete Superman Collection Diamond Anniversary Edition. The name change from the Daily Star to the Daily Planet is nothing compared to Batman's mother not being murdered. The creators Siegel and Shuster created the Kents and they are in Superman #1 (1939).
http://superman.ws/tales2/twopageorigin/1.gif

[MatchesMalone]

You can't explain why you love continuity except to say, "it makes sense."

Superman going from leaping to flying is rather a big difference. Superman going from growing up in an orphanage to living on a farm with Jonathan and Martha is a GIANT leap. Neither were "in continuity" when introduced.

I would wager that more has been done for these characters from stories outside of continuity than has been done within the monthly continuity. And I would win that bet.

[theMan-Bat]

I hate continuity now Post-Infinity Crisis.

Superman's creators Jerry Seigel and Joe Shuster embellished Superman's beginnings with the Kents in Superman #1 (1939). That didn't scrap decades of continuity.

[MatchesMalone]

What is important about continuity? You haven't answered my original question. Please, give me a straight answer without posting images.

[theMan-Bat]

I already did.

Why is continuity important at all? So the original material is not betrayed because I think it's to good to betray. And so things make sense.

Read my posts, don't just look at the pictures.

[MatchesMalone]

But the original material is betrayed and refined all the time.

Do you want a pipe-smoking Bruce Wayne who's best friends with Gordon, and a Batman that carries guns and shoots people? That's what's in my original archive books here.

"So things make sense": what does that mean? Clarify, please. You mean, so things fit in with a 70-year history? If so, good luck with that jigsaw puzzle. I'd rather read an interesting story that doesn't take five pages going over useless backstory.

[theMan-Bat]

Yes, I want a pipe-smoking Bruce Wayne who's best friends with Gordon, and a Batman that carries guns and shoots people!

Yes, I mean, so things fit in with history.

[MatchesMalone]

Awesome.

[theMan-Bat]

:up:
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f341/themanbat/1bat.jpg

[MatchesMalone]

At least you're consistent. So, do you not like any Batman comics after 1949?

[theMan-Bat]

Not as much as the killer original material. The Denny O'Neil/Neal Adams stories, etc. are good but there missing Bruce Wayne's pipe and hanging out with Gordon, Batman's guns and shooting people. Batman saying:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/rudeboy-/catbatspank.jpg
Also the Batplane! I love the Batplane!
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/rudeboy-/1BATMAN001-Gun.jpg
http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/5025/1kanestrangling8lh.jpg
http://www.dccomics.com/media/covers/2711_400x600.jpg

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Because continuity itself is limiting and pointless. Continuity in these things is stupid. 70 years of stories by different writers with different takes and different ideas cannot be fit into the same history. And retcons like Crisis, Zero Hour, and IC are what they are: incredibly lame attempts to "wipe the board clean" and give new creators a chance to play. But they are the lamest stories themselves. Multiverse? Hypertime? Superboy punching a timewall? Seriously?

Well, that's comics for yah. It's part of the whole deal I guess.

Would it hurt to make these stories like Bond? Where a loose framework exists, but stories stand on their own and creators are allowed to change, edit, adapt, or do what they feel is right as creators, in one story?


That'd be near impossible to pull off.......even though most stories today take place KINDA like that, it's not easy to just kinda be loose with past stuff because they kinda matter to the fans. But....for the most part...continuity doesn't really affect everything like all the time.


Why is continuity so damn important, anyway?



Personally, I think it's because fans hold the past great stories so tightly. I guess it's not easy to erase, what some people would call, the iconic versions. But....continuity is alaways a pain really.


Also, Joe Chill was never arrested in the original Joe Chill story.
Chill should be out of continuity because the Chill text contradicted the original material. Where as the original asserts, for example, that both Thomas and Martha Wayne died from bullet wounds, the Joe Chill text asserted that only Thomas Wayne was shot and died from a bullet wound, while Martha Wayne died from shock.



lol....the shock thing would make people laugh....lol.


But the original material is betrayed and refined all the time.



Yup......it's funny how the comics can getaway with it, but if a movie tries it...it get hammered badly for the smallest little detail.


Do you want a pipe-smoking Bruce Wayne who's best friends with Gordon, and a Batman that carries guns and shoots people? That's what's in my original archive books here.



That's the thing about it, I guess. It's about re-shaping the character to fit into the times so that it's still revelant. Otherwise, your right, the character would remain the same...and well.....be outdated.

This is the thing, I would say: People want to know where they stand with these characters. Keeping the character in total mystery is unacceptable because we've gotten so into them already. The past and how they became what they are are important.....but Batman is one character where continuity has been kinda vague. For example, we know Batman's first year as Batman he teamed up with Gordon.....but we're not really sure if Selina was a hooker. Atleast, not anymore.

I do wish it was easier....and honestly, Comics in general do a horrible job of carrying and altering the continuity.

I am in favor of Chill being brought back though, makes more sense I think.

[MSUdawgs163]

I hate the name Joe Chill. I wish they had changed it.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I think it's actually kinda cool. Sounds like a real dirt bag, ya know.