So JMS and Joey Q know they screwed up...

[Doc Destruction]

Now that I have your attention, read this month's Wizard. Interestingly enough, they BOTH know that Spidey is off track. Welllllll DUH!

Things of note:

1) They want to return him to Stan Lee's version (MERCIFUL GOD)
2) Norman nailing Gwen was Joey Q's call - "The fans will love it!" BZZZZZZZZZZT!
3) Joey Q hates MJ and Peter's marriage. STILL. Okaaaay, so your idea of good change then is to have Gwen nail Norman? The marriage is a beautiful thing when written well. Too bad you have no skills to do so.
4) They KNOW now that the Other was a big piece of crap.
5) They plan to move him back toward everyman status, which means you can probably kiss his Avenger's membership goodbye.

Interesting, yet it took them 5 freaking years to figure it out. Way to go, guys.

And to those of you on these boards who just sat back and blatently called me, Shin and a number of other posters whiners...

*AHEM*

WE TOLD YOU SO.

[Doc Destruction]

Ah crimney this has been brought up in another post! Ah, but I feel much better now.

If a mod wants to tuck this into the other thread, please do so.

[The Joker]

1) They want to return him to Stan Lee's version (MERCIFUL GOD)

I'm not sure what to make of this.They want to go BACK and make him the insecure Peter Parker of the 60's??

2) Norman nailing Gwen was Joey Q's call - "The fans will love it!" BZZZZZZZZZZT!

No wonder he was the only one of the Marvel staff who publically said he liked that story.

3) Joey Q hates MJ and Peter's marriage. STILL. Okaaaay, so your idea of good change then is to have Gwen nail Norman? The marriage is a beautiful thing when written well. Too bad you have no skills to do so

He's going to break them up I bet,going by that comment he made about his and JMS' collaboration next year.

4) They KNOW now that the Other was a big piece of crap.

LOL! And I remember the praise page Joe Q did at the end of the Other arc,thanking the readers and the Marvel team for making the Other so great and successful.

5) They plan to move him back toward everyman status, which means you can probably kiss his Avenger's membership goodbye.

Good.

Interesting, yet it took them 5 freaking years to figure it out. Way to go, guys.

Have they learned the error of their ways though?? We'll see.....

[Joker]

I think I'm still the only person who doesnt give a crap that Gwen was a ****...

[The_Dark_Knight]

WOO HOO!! Finaly, I can start reading Amazing again! The Other was gay as hell. Thank God they know they f**ked up.

[roach]

I wouldnt start cheering just yet

[Trevor Goodchild]

I think I'm still the only person who doesnt give a crap that Gwen was a ****...
Well, you know, 'first love' goes a long long way...

[shinlyle]

So....the idiots who don't know thing one about Spidey were wrong, and the geeks who've read Spidey since they could conjugate a verb were right...?

Well....imagine that.

I don't want to be immature when saying this, so I'll keep it brief:

Suck it, Joe Q.
Suck it, JMS.

Not saying what "it" is.....just saying what's on my mind.

[spahn]

it doesn't bother me that spidey is with the avengers. what bothers me is that he has such a miniscule role and they make him out to be a total idiot as well.

[MaxCarnage]

The only good news that comes out of this, maybe, is that if they plan on "fixing" the marriage in 2007, that means that MJ is not going to die/leave Peter during the Civil War.

Though it makes me wonder if May is going to die. Does that mean alternate-Ben is going take over in that capacity?

EDIT: I hate Spider-Man being in the Avengers. Hate it.

[KingOfDreams]

5) They plan to move him back toward everyman status, which means you can probably kiss his Avenger's membership goodbye.


This I'm okay with. Ending his marriage to Mary Jane I am not okay with. Seriously, you can't keep him a man-child his entire life. I hate regression. But I do like sticking to the core of the character.

[KingOfDreams]

Though it makes me wonder if May is going to die. Does that mean alternate-Ben is going take over in that capacity?

Don't scare me like that.

[shinlyle]

Wait a second....this isn't the annual "April Fool's" Edition of Wizard, is it? If it is, then there is a good chance they are yanking our chains.

Please....someone check on this before I pop open the champagne....

[roach]

nope not the April edition

[shinlyle]

nope not the April edition

Phew....thanks, man.

If Wizard had done this as an April Fool's gag, they were going to be put back on my hit list.

[Doc Destruction]

And I notice NONE of the "You just hate change" freaks are posting. I figured.

[roach]

You just hate the chan....I cant even say it

[stillanerd]

And I notice NONE of the "You just hate change" freaks are posting. I figured.

Even more telling is that some of the usual crop who bow at the altar of Joe Q on other message boards are taken aback by this, even at comicboards (although there are some who are saying "wait and see" once again.)

[shinlyle]

And I notice NONE of the "You just hate change" freaks are posting. I figured.

That's because they are useless, mindless cowards.

[Parker756]

Thats trucking refarted!

Ok they know the screwed up....GREAT! Marvel should realize how much these two suck for the spider-man franchise and GET THEM THE HELL AWAY BEFORE THEY SCREW IT UP EVEN MORE!!!!!

[shinlyle]

Thats trucking refarted!

Ok they know the screwed up....GREAT! Marvel should realize how much these two suck for the spider-man franchise and GET THEM THE HELL AWAY BEFORE THEY SCREW IT UP EVEN MORE!!!!!

You and I....we're going to get along just fine! :up:

Nice post.

[gildea]

1) They want to return him to Stan Lee's version (MERCIFUL GOD)
2) Norman nailing Gwen was Joey Q's call - "The fans will love it!" BZZZZZZZZZZT!
3) Joey Q hates MJ and Peter's marriage. STILL. Okaaaay, so your idea of good change then is to have Gwen nail Norman? The marriage is a beautiful thing when written well. Too bad you have no skills to do so.
4) They KNOW now that the Other was a big piece of crap.
5) They plan to move him back toward everyman status, which means you can probably kiss his Avenger's membership goodbye.




what did they specifically say about gwen and the other?

all in all sounds quite good (though i do like him in the avengers)

[TheWhiteSpider]

Now that I have your attention, read this month's Wizard. Interestingly enough, they BOTH know that Spidey is off track.

6 + 6 + 06. The signs are all around you.

[Popo 85]

That's almost great news. But, though I've never really cared for MJ as a supporting cast member like I have May, I'd hate to see them drop her to make Spidey more "relatable." He's 30 now. Deal with it. Instead of making great stories as they were originally intended, make great stories about the character of now. Drop the totem, drop the Other, drop the Avengers and drop the new powers, but don't drop what was legitimatly build up upon for 40 years. That's just disrespectful to the core audience and to the character himself, and all the creators that had contributed before hand.

[Themanofbat]

You can see the writing on the walls...

With both Gwen & Harry in Spidey 3, you know they're coming back. :mad: :(

With Dunst saying she won't do more Spidey films beyond the third one, something tells me they'll get rid of her somehow in the movie, which could spell her demise in the books.

The one thing that would really bother me if they decide to "kill" her (again), they've really lost out on what was once the BEST supporting cast in comics. Other than Aunt May, everybody else is either dead or in limbo. And once they get rid of MJ, there will be nothing left of the past to build on (other than all the ressurection crap that will be pure nonsense in my opinion).

:(

[KingOfDreams]

You can see the writing on the walls...

With both Gwen & Harry in Spidey 3, you know they're coming back. :mad: :(

With Dunst saying she won't do more Spidey films beyond the third one, something tells me they'll get rid of her somehow in the movie, which could spell her demise in the books.


Yeah. It pisses me off how the comics sometimes tend to ride on the coattails of the movies. Morrison's New X-Men is a prime example of this.

[deemar325]

I just blew an O-ring!!

Lord you answered my prayers!

Now get to work on that plane engine falling on Joey Q and JMS.

[Marc]

These people are ingrained liars, i wouldn't trust one iota of the words they spew. Even if they were to renounce the evil that they had done, it doesn't forgive them, they should be near a spidey title. JMS should be fired, and Joe Q sent back to the post room.

1) They want to return him to Stan Lee's version (MERCIFUL GOD)

Not married, with another woman and not knowing his arse from his elbow? Well, a third of the way there already. As mentioned, its seems obvious the path they want to take considering the movie and recent comments made. The groundwork is being put in in terms of marketing.

2) Norman nailing Gwen was Joey Q's call - "The fans will love it!" BZZZZZZZZZZT!

Which is a ****ing lie! JMS has more power than most writers, I can promise you that, or he wouldn't of done what he has done nor even taken Spidey on board in the first place. HE has control, passing the buck is cowardly and pathetic. JMS WROTE it, if he didn't want to then he could have refused and he would have done. He likes to brag about how incorruptable he is, how he faces down the suits in TV world every five seconds, to say he bent over and said 'spank me big boy' all of a sudden is sheer crap. JMS needs to find his balls and stop hiding, or just piss off for good.

3) Joey Q hates MJ and Peter's marriage. STILL. Okaaaay, so your idea of good change then is to have Gwen nail Norman? The marriage is a beautiful thing when written well. Too bad you have no skills to do so.

Well this is well known already, metnioning it again is both a red herring in the sense it distracts from the actual problems (namely him) and obvious groundwork previously mentioned. I'd suggest he hung himself, but unless he can get spidey to lend him his web shooters, no rope could hold his weight. He admits in his column that any situation or character can be written well yet on the other hand says MJ cannot. Why does this world stand for idiots like this, the genetic pool would be grateful for a culling of the retards.

4) They KNOW now that the Other was a big piece of crap.

What did they say specifically? Any quotes? Because their ego shouldn't allow them to admit they were wrong, especially not with PAD running around telling everyone how wrong they are. The other was bad, but sins past, avengers and the totem crap are still great I guess.

5) They plan to move him back toward everyman status, which means you can probably kiss his Avenger's membership goodbye.

Hopefully, damage done though. I won't be happy until there is a retcon, JMS is fired and branded a ****, with Joke Q sent to the pits of hell.

Interesting, yet it took them 5 freaking years to figure it out. Way to go, guys.

And to those of you on these boards who just sat back and blatently called me, Shin and a number of other posters whiners...

*AHEM*

WE TOLD YOU SO.

They didn't figure out anything, they are never wrong. This is just some tactic to allow yet more bull****.

And yes indeed, we did tell them. Even now people are telling us to wait and see, as if seeing a tiger running at you full pelt requires you to wait and see if it is hostile. Haven't seen SIAT in a bit, in hiding? Frankly though, I don't much care about being legitimized... I just want the 'badness' gone.

[UK_Stu]

Now that I have your attention, read this month's Wizard. Interestingly enough, they BOTH know that Spidey is off track. Welllllll DUH!

Things of note:

1) They want to return him to Stan Lee's version (MERCIFUL GOD)
2) Norman nailing Gwen was Joey Q's call - "The fans will love it!" BZZZZZZZZZZT!
3) Joey Q hates MJ and Peter's marriage. STILL. Okaaaay, so your idea of good change then is to have Gwen nail Norman? The marriage is a beautiful thing when written well. Too bad you have no skills to do so.
4) They KNOW now that the Other was a big piece of crap.
5) They plan to move him back toward everyman status, which means you can probably kiss his Avenger's membership goodbye.

Interesting, yet it took them 5 freaking years to figure it out. Way to go, guys.

And to those of you on these boards who just sat back and blatently called me, Shin and a number of other posters whiners...

*AHEM*

WE TOLD YOU SO.


What concerns me, is how and when they'll sort this out. Its all fine and good maybe admitting you made some mistakes, but can we trust the guys who gave us Sins past, sins remembered and the other to not make things worse?

There will be have to be some serious retcons to explain away some of what has happened recently - I wouldn't be suprised to see Parker wake up, find himself in a hospital bed, surrounded by Gwen, Harry, Flash and MJ - "I've just had the strangest dream"

I would also say the writing is definitely on the wall for MJ, especially the way the movies are going

[Dangerous]

Thats trucking refarted!

Ok they know the screwed up....GREAT! Marvel should realize how much these two suck for the spider-man franchise and GET THEM THE HELL AWAY BEFORE THEY SCREW IT UP EVEN MORE!!!!!

Preach brother!

If this is true, what JMS and Joe Q say in the new wizard, then I will be very happy that they can finally admit that they suck s-h1t at making SM comics.
Also I do not want to see JMS write anymore of them, kick his sorry ass off, and someone assassinate that fat turd of an editor.
The SM comics need new blood, a new life-force.

If I were EIC, Spider-man would be immediately restored to his former glory starting w/ all the damaging events of ASM#508 onwards being retconned over a series of arcs that would last say, 6 months and basically undo SP and the Other. Then I would put stable teams of amazing creators on each of the three titles who were all hot on continuity. I’d then put the proper ASM logo back on ASM, and give all 3 titles letters pages.

[Dangerous]

Anyway, I won't be buying ASM again until JMS is off or they retcon #508 onwards.

[dan1]

Preach brother!

If this is true, what JMS and Joe Q say in the new wizard, then I will be very happy that they can finally admit that they suck s-h1t at making SM comics.
Also I do not want to see JMS write anymore of them, kick his sorry ass off, and someone assassinate that fat turd of an editor.
The SM comics need new blood, a new life-force.

If I were EIC, Spider-man would be immediately restored to his former glory starting w/ all the damaging events of ASM#508 onwards being retconned over a series of arcs that would last say, 6 months and basically undo SP and the Other. Then I would put stable teams of amazing creators on each of the three titles who were all hot on continuity. I’d then put the proper ASM logo back on ASM, and give all 3 titles letters pages.

Rock On!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jeffers]

Anyway, I won't be buying ASM again until JMS is off or they retcon #508 onwards.

Right with you on that one. Spider-Man won't be fixed until Axel Alonzo, who doesn't know a thing about the character, is sent packing, followed by JMS. I can't say anything about the other writers because I haven't read anything since Jenkins (who knew Spidey!) left. I tried Friendly Neighborhood, but couldn't get into it. And If I can't enjoy a Spidey book written by Peter David, something is seriously wrong with the character.

And go back to Stan Lee's original concept. Once again, isn't that what Ultimate is for?

There's nothing wrong with Peter Parker as a young, married man. He just needs writers who can tell good stories about Spider-Man and not bend the character to fit their "visions."

If they want to return Peter Parker to his everyman status, then they have to start telling everyman stories again and not CHANGE EVERYTHING YOU'VE EVER KNOWN ABOUT SPIDER-MAN! every eight months.

They had a model for this with Paul Jenkins, and they drove him away. Idiots.

[Eye Doc]

I read that interview in Wizard yesterday. It made me laugh a bit.

1)Joe Q seems to be infatuated with attracting a mythical 9yr. old reading audience that doesn't exist.

2)Joe and JMS both complain about the lack of a supporting cast, but JMS hasn't tried to use them in his nearly 5 yr run on the book. The only two people who play a prominent role in the book are MJ and May. From what I've read, JMS gets a lot of creative control. Why didn't he use Betty, Jonah, Liz, Robbie, Randy, etc. Why didn't he try to create someone new for him to interact with? He had no problem adding OTHER NEW CONCEPTS (pun intended). Peter's works at a school. We don't know ANY of his co-workers.

3) They want the book to be like the Stan Lee era. Who ultimately signed off on the mystical totem crap, Sins Past, and the other? Their intials are JQ and JMS! Those stories took Peter much farther away from his core concept than his marriage to MJ.

I don't have a lot of faith in these guys. The books aren't working b/c of their creative decisions. I just don't see them making things right. This reminds me of the post clone era. Three of the writers who wrote Peter out of the series in favor of the clone (Tom DeFalco, Howard Mackie, and JM Dematteis) were the guys who stuck around to relaunch the character when the Clone Saga ended. In my opinion, the line should've been overhauled with new writers.

This recent interview basically says, "we know the books aren't good right now. We made some bad decisions. If we can get rid of MJ we'll make it right".

I can't help but be very cynical.

Eye Doc

[wolvie2020]

Right with you on that one. Spider-Man won't be fixed until Axel Alonzo, who doesn't know a thing about the character, is sent packing, followed by JMS. I can't say anything about the other writers because I haven't read anything since Jenkins (who knew Spidey!) left. I tried Friendly Neighborhood, but couldn't get into it. And If I can't enjoy a Spidey book written by Peter David, something is seriously wrong with the character.

And go back to Stan Lee's original concept. Once again, isn't that what Ultimate is for?

There's nothing wrong with Peter Parker as a young, married man. He just needs writers who can tell good stories about Spider-Man and not bend the character to fit their "visions."

If they want to return Peter Parker to his everyman status, then they have to start telling everyman stories again and not CHANGE EVERYTHING YOU'VE EVER KNOWN ABOUT SPIDER-MAN! every eight months.

They had a model for this with Paul Jenkins, and they drove him away. Idiots.

Exactly.

You know what gets me the most? How fickle some fanman/fanwomen can be. Jenkins had a groundbreaking run, which paved the way for JMS. Until he got really sick, worked from bed/hospital, and his writing quality decreased.

Fans 4got how he started, and started insulting him from right and left, and hailed JMS a god, while he started his 'totem' stuff. People proudly stated, it's just a new direction, that doesn't change Spidey, and Jenkins should go to hell. Naturally, he now had to leave.

Now look at the mess Spidey's in. NO ONE can disagree with the fact that if Marvel stuck to Jenkins ideas, and direction, that Spidey comics right now would be MUCH more like great Spider-Man stories. Not saying that he should've been writing ASM, but whoever was tackling ASM, should've been told to take a note from him

Human, passionate, moralistic, heart wrenching, comedic, action packed super hero comics. That's what Spidey comics should be

[Herr Logan]

That's because they are useless, mindless cowards.

I need to buy this guy a drink. I really do. :)

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

These people are ingrained liars, i wouldn't trust one iota of the words they spew. Even if they were to renounce the evil that they had done, it doesn't forgive them, they should be near a spidey title. JMS should be fired, and Joe Q sent back to the post room.



Not married, with another woman and not knowing his arse from his elbow? Well, a third of the way there already. As mentioned, its seems obvious the path they want to take considering the movie and recent comments made. The groundwork is being put in in terms of marketing.



Which is a ****ing lie! JMS has more power than most writers, I can promise you that, or he wouldn't of done what he has done nor even taken Spidey on board in the first place. HE has control, passing the buck is cowardly and pathetic. JMS WROTE it, if he didn't want to then he could have refused and he would have done. He likes to brag about how incorruptable he is, how he faces down the suits in TV world every five seconds, to say he bent over and said 'spank me big boy' all of a sudden is sheer crap. JMS needs to find his balls and stop hiding, or just piss off for good.



Well this is well known already, metnioning it again is both a red herring in the sense it distracts from the actual problems (namely him) and obvious groundwork previously mentioned. I'd suggest he hung himself, but unless he can get spidey to lend him his web shooters, no rope could hold his weight. He admits in his column that any situation or character can be written well yet on the other hand says MJ cannot. Why does this world stand for idiots like this, the genetic pool would be grateful for a culling of the retards.



What did they say specifically? Any quotes? Because their ego shouldn't allow them to admit they were wrong, especially not with PAD running around telling everyone how wrong they are. The other was bad, but sins past, avengers and the totem crap are still great I guess.



Hopefully, damage done though. I won't be happy until there is a retcon, JMS is fired and branded a ****, with Joke Q sent to the pits of hell.



They didn't figure out anything, they are never wrong. This is just some tactic to allow yet more bull****.

And yes indeed, we did tell them. Even now people are telling us to wait and see, as if seeing a tiger running at you full pelt requires you to wait and see if it is hostile. Haven't seen SIAT in a bit, in hiding? Frankly though, I don't much care about being legitimized... I just want the 'badness' gone.

This guy, too. :)

:wolverine

[KingOfDreams]

I would also say the writing is definitely on the wall for MJ, especially the way the movies are going

I know I've said this before but that shouldn't matter. But apparently it does.

[wolvie2020]

I read that interview in Wizard yesterday. It made me laugh a bit.

1)Joe Q seems to be infatuated with attracting a mythical 9yr. old reading audience that doesn't exist.

2)Joe and JMS both complain about the lack of a supporting cast, but JMS hasn't tried to use them in his nearly 5 yr run on the book. The only two people who play a prominent role in the book are MJ and May. From what I've read, JMS gets a lot of creative control. Why didn't he use Betty, Jonah, Liz, Robbie, Randy, etc. Why didn't he try to create someone new for him to interact with? He had no problem adding OTHER NEW CONCEPTS (pun intended). Peter's works at a school. We don't know ANY of his co-workers.

3) They want the book to be like the Stan Lee era. Who ultimately signed off on the mystical totem crap, Sins Past, and the other? Their intials are JQ and JMS! Those stories took Peter much farther away from his core concept than his marriage to MJ.

I don't have a lot of faith in these guys. The books aren't working b/c of their creative decisions. I just don't see them making things right. This reminds me of the post clone era. Three of the writers who wrote Peter out of the series in favor of the clone (Tom DeFalco, Howard Mackie, and JM Dematteis) were the guys who stuck around to relaunch the character when the Clone Saga ended. In my opinion, the line should've been overhauled with new writers.

This recent interview basically says, "we know the books aren't good right now. We made some bad decisions. If we can get rid of MJ we'll make it right".

I can't help but be very cynical.

Eye Doc

Again, completely right. What I don't get is, if they KNOW that they KEEP getting it wrong, for FIVE YEARS, why the HELL do they given THEMSELVES the job to FIX THIS S**T!!!!????

Couldn't they be SMART for a change, and hand that job over to someone else?? (hint, hint, Loeb/Campbell, hint, hint???)

Marvel have STACKS of great writers that PEOPLE LOVE!!!??? Why can't we just have someone GREAT taking a shot at a story like this??? Or someone who LOVES Spidey???/

One thing that would be real cool, if they gave the specs, they could get aspiring writers/Spidey fans to give it a shot at the plot for a story like this, far the fans, by the fans! Lol

[shinlyle]

I need to buy this guy a drink. I really do. :)

:wolverine

Likewise, man!

Captain Morgan's Spiced Rum is my brand of choice, by the way.

[Herr Logan]

Likewise, man!

Captain Morgan's Spiced Rum is my brand of choice, by the way.

I'll try to keep that in mind. :up:

Mine's Cherry Coke. :o

:wolverine

[shinlyle]

Exactly.

You know what gets me the most? How fickle some fanman/fanwomen can be. Jenkins had a groundbreaking run, which paved the way for JMS. Until he got really sick, worked from bed/hospital, and his writing quality decreased.

Fans 4got how he started, and started insulting him from right and left, and hailed JMS a god, while he started his 'totem' stuff. People proudly stated, it's just a new direction, that doesn't change Spidey, and Jenkins should go to hell. Naturally, he now had to leave.

Now look at the mess Spidey's in. NO ONE can disagree with the fact that if Marvel stuck to Jenkins ideas, and direction, that Spidey comics right now would be MUCH more like great Spider-Man stories. Not saying that he should've been writing ASM, but whoever was tackling ASM, should've been told to take a note from him

Human, passionate, moralistic, heart wrenching, comedic, action packed super hero comics. That's what Spidey comics should be

Agreed. Jenkins's writing fell victim to the TPB police, and we all know it. The Dissassembled crapola was forced upon him, and from the point where the "Queen" was introduced, the book went completely downhill. It turned back up with the Poker issue, Mindworm, and the Finale, which was absolutely wonderful, but, with "Sins Remembered" thrown in there for good measure (of which Jenkins had NOTHING to do with) , Spectacular Spider-Man fell upon the sword that should have been JMS's.

I remember Jenkins's stuff on PPSM....man! Those were some great stories. The one with the Vulture, the one with the Human Torch, and most of the others from that series....no arcs....no convoluted stories....he even brought into the fold a *gasp* supporting cast!!

I will always loook fondly upon Jenkins's Spider-Man stuff.

[shinlyle]

I'll try to keep that in mind. :up:

Mine's Cherry Coke. :o

:wolverine

As far as soft drinks go, mine is Coca-Cola Classic.:up:

[wolvie2020]

As far as soft drinks go, mine is Coca-Cola Classic.:up:


But you have to give cherry coke props for not being scared of being different, and just rollin' wit it.

I have no respect for 'new' Coke. That ***** just be bitin' yo! :mad:

Ironically, I'm a through and through Pepsi man myself:up:

[Gregatron]

Maybe Roger Stern can be lured back if he's allowed to "fix" Spidey.

It's not a stretch to say that he may very well come in second to Lee and Ditko.

[gildea]

Out of curiosity how do we fix spidey?

Do we ignore or do we retacon?

For example i would like to retacon sins past to save gwens character but i don't like the idea of spending 3 issues fixing that dark dark time.

suggestions?

[Doc Destruction]

No drink love for the Doc. Le sigh.

[Gregatron]

Out of curiosity how do we fix spidey?

Do we ignore or do we retacon?

For example i would like to retacon sins past to save gwens character but i don't like the idea of spending 3 issues fixing that dark dark time.

suggestions?



All that's needed to begin with is a change in tone, theme, and creative ways of disproving recent events. There shouldn't be issues solely dedicated to "fixing" the character.

That would be a start.

[Doc Destruction]

Out of curiosity how do we fix spidey?

Do we ignore or do we retacon?

For example i would like to retacon sins past to save gwens character but i don't like the idea of spending 3 issues fixing that dark dark time.

suggestions?

Yes, give JMS' run the Baby May treatment and move along.

[Upset Spideyfan]

No, I want a nice nasty retcon to smear right across JMS' face.

Anyway, I'm calling BS on this. Both these guys' lack the skill and focus to move in a productive and creative venue for more than a couple of weeks, if that long. Not to mention that their next big story will "Tear your heart out", shows me they have learned nothing from their last "smash hit".

[Hoban]

Exactly.

You know what gets me the most? How fickle some fanman/fanwomen can be. Jenkins had a groundbreaking run, which paved the way for JMS. Until he got really sick, worked from bed/hospital, and his writing quality decreased.

Fans 4got how he started, and started insulting him from right and left, and hailed JMS a god, while he started his 'totem' stuff. People proudly stated, it's just a new direction, that doesn't change Spidey, and Jenkins should go to hell. Naturally, he now had to leave.

Now look at the mess Spidey's in. NO ONE can disagree with the fact that if Marvel stuck to Jenkins ideas, and direction, that Spidey comics right now would be MUCH more like great Spider-Man stories. Not saying that he should've been writing ASM, but whoever was tackling ASM, should've been told to take a note from him

Human, passionate, moralistic, heart wrenching, comedic, action packed super hero comics. That's what Spidey comics should be
This post brought a smile to my face. Jenkins is my all time favorite writer. Back when I started reading comics(back in 2001) I was picking up strictly Spider-Man comics at my local grocery store. I rememberfinnishing reading A PP:SM comic and loving it(it was Jenkins' Fusion arc) and for the first time, I checked to see who wrote it, (because prior to that point I was just picking up anything that said Spider-Man on the cover) I remember seeing Jenkins' name. From that point on, no matter what comic I read, Jenkins has been my favorite writer.

I had no idea that he got sick, though. Or that fan reaction was the reason he left the title. That's kinda dissapointing.:(


I've got an off topic question, whatever happened to Jenkins' comic he was doing with Humberto Ramos about the Vatican? Did I miss it? What was it called?

[Upset Spideyfan]

I miss Fusion.... Am I the only one? :(

[Gregatron]

I miss Fusion.... Am I the only one? :(


Fusion is a step-up from F-listers like Morlun. At least Fusion is a science-based villain...

[Hoban]

I miss Fusion.... Am I the only one? :(
I do as well. But there's really nohing that can be done with spider-man, because he knows that all those things he can do aren't real, and what isn't real can't hurt him.(at least that's what I gathered from the ending of the arc, but I haven't read it in a while.)


...that, and I've heard him reffered to as a second rate Mysterio.:o

[Captivated]

I read that interview in Wizard yesterday. It made me laugh a bit.

1)Joe Q seems to be infatuated with attracting a mythical 9yr. old reading audience that doesn't exist.

2)Joe and JMS both complain about the lack of a supporting cast, but JMS hasn't tried to use them in his nearly 5 yr run on the book. The only two people who play a prominent role in the book are MJ and May. From what I've read, JMS gets a lot of creative control. Why didn't he use Betty, Jonah, Liz, Robbie, Randy, etc. Why didn't he try to create someone new for him to interact with? He had no problem adding OTHER NEW CONCEPTS (pun intended). Peter's works at a school. We don't know ANY of his co-workers.

3) They want the book to be like the Stan Lee era. Who ultimately signed off on the mystical totem crap, Sins Past, and the other? Their intials are JQ and JMS! Those stories took Peter much farther away from his core concept than his marriage to MJ...

...This recent interview basically says, "we know the books aren't good right now. We made some bad decisions. If we can get rid of MJ we'll make it right".

I can't help but be very cynical.

Eye Doc
Boy, I wish I had time to make all the comments I want to on this subject (pesky job)...

I agree. The pre-teens I know are more interested in computer games than comics... and I wouldn't even let them read stories like Sins Past and the Other anyway. The only CONSISTANTLY enjoyable element of JMS' run has been the way he writes Aunt May and MJ. I love the marriage.

If they screw up that up by 1) making MJ suddenly act like a stupid jerk (like they did with Peter pre Clone Saga) or 2) try to create a "love triangle" with Gwen (Peter/MJ should NOT be confused at all about their feelings at this point) or 3) insert some convoluted reason they have to part, or 4) kill MJ... I will not only stop spending my hard earn money on anything Marvel (and in two short years I've already spent hundreds), I will do everything I can to fill their lives with the ridicule and censure they deserve. :mad:

I just don't get the leap of logic they have expressed... fans are complaining about a lack of supporting cast, disrespect to continuity, too much mystic mumbo jumbo, and dumbing Peter down... and wonders of wonders, the "powers that be" have figured out that something might be "off." But how the HELL did they translate all those compaints into "the problem is the marriage"??!! Not even the people who could take or leave the marriage think it's THE PROBLEM with Spidey. Poll have REPEATEDLY shown a vast majority support it... Really make me wonder about their thought processes... I mean, where ARE their heads? Just how FAR up their... No. I'm a lady. I'll think it, but not say it.

[rscal]

Which is a ****ing lie! JMS has more power than most writers, I can promise you that, or he wouldn't of done what he has done nor even taken Spidey on board in the first place. HE has control, passing the buck is cowardly and pathetic. JMS WROTE it, if he didn't want to then he could have refused and he would have done. He likes to brag about how incorruptable he is, how he faces down the suits in TV world every five seconds, to say he bent over and said 'spank me big boy' all of a sudden is sheer crap. JMS needs to find his balls and stop hiding, or just piss off for good.



actually I have heard that JMS wanted the kids to be pete's to begin with. and sorry if the boss wants it changed he could always change it before it goes to print Joe Q could just write that part in. the many drawbacks of writing liscensed characters that you don't own you don't have the final say.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

That's very true. That's why JMS left The Real Ghostbusters.

[rscal]

Fusion is a step-up from F-listers like Morlun. At least Fusion is a science-based villain...

actually i didn't mind morlun the first time but his resurrection was dumb ( no explanations) to be just a vehicle for peter to evolve (something that didn't need to happen and his new powers are lame anyway) had very lil to do with the story line. Morlun just become morbius from the cartoon series the second time. silly. JMS should a stop after that 9 11 issue which was good except for that damn villian page. Like JMS dialogue just can't stand his story ideas.

[rscal]

That's very true. That's why JMS left The Real Ghostbusters.

Did he leave "murder she wrote" too? or was that cancelled before he quit or was let go?

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Dunno, didn't know he was on there.

[rscal]

I agree. The pre-teens I know are more interested in computer games than comics... and I wouldn't even let them read stories like Sins Past and the Other anyway. The only CONSISTANTLY enjoyable element of JMS' run has been the way he writes Aunt May and MJ. I love the marriage.

If they screw up that up by 1) making MJ suddenly act like a stupid jerk (like they did with Peter pre Clone Saga) or 2) try to create a "love triangle" with Gwen (Peter/MJ should NOT be confused at all about their feelings at this point) or 3) insert some convoluted reason they have to part, or 4) kill MJ... I will not only stop spending my hard earn money on anything Marvel (and in two short years I've already spent hundreds), I will do everything I can to fill their lives with the ridicule and censure they deserve. :mad:

I just don't get the leap of logic they have expressed... fans are complaining about a lack of supporting cast, disrespect to continuity, too much mystic mumbo jumbo, and dumbing Peter down... and wonders of wonders, the "powers that be" have figured out that something might be "off." But how the HELL did they translate all those compaints into "the problem is the marriage"??!! Not even the people who could take or leave the marriage think it's THE PROBLEM with Spidey. Poll have REPEATEDLY shown a vast majority support it... Really make me wonder about their thought processes... I mean, where ARE their heads? Just how FAR up their... No. I'm a lady. I'll think it, but not say it.[/QUOTE]


Thats because Joey Q has no idea about spider-man he prbbly only knows that character from the electric company, no MJ or supporting cast in that version of spidey.

[3dman27]

Thats trucking refarted!

Ok they know the screwed up....GREAT! Marvel should realize how much these two suck for the spider-man franchise and GET THEM THE HELL AWAY BEFORE THEY SCREW IT UP EVEN MORE!!!!!
amen to that

[deemar325]

^ Ditto like a heart attack!

[SpideyInATree]

And yes indeed, we did tell them. Even now people are telling us to wait and see, as if seeing a tiger running at you full pelt requires you to wait and see if it is hostile. Haven't seen SIAT in a bit, in hiding? Frankly though, I don't much care about being legitimized... I just want the 'badness' gone.

Why is my name being brought up? Because I don't share the same common opinion on these boards?

I enjoyed the Ezekiel character and the totem aspect. The Book of Ezekiel was an excellent Spidey story arc, in my opinion.

Sins Past wasn't good. Good story for what it was about but just a horrible idea. I've said this like a million times on these boards.

The Skin Deep arc was mediocre. Charlie Wiederman just reminded me of a really deeply disturbed nerdy Molten Man.

The New Avengers arc was top notch. JMS wrote a better New Avengers than Bendis did. I enjoyed this arc heavily, especially where Pete tossed Wolverine through UNBREAKABLE GLASS!!! :eek:

The Other was rather horribly put together. Hudlin's portion of The Other was tough to get through. David's and JMS' were all right. It was a pretty dull story for something that spawned so many new and interesting things to Spidey. I've gone on the record, many times, saying this on these boards as well.

I like the new costume. And I'm enjoying the Road to Civil War.

So, you told me so? Told me so about what? That Peter is going to go public with his identity in Civil War. Mary Jane is probably going to die. JMS and Quesada sound like they are going to retcon all the bad stuff, like Sins Past.

So...I mean...what are you telling me so about? I know JMS and Quesada didn't do too great of a job with Spidey the past few years. There were duds. And there were aspects that I really enjoyed. I'm sorry that I don't just blindly hate everything that those guys did like the general population here does.

[Marc]

No drink love for the Doc. Le sigh.

Well if we can get rid of the hacks, I think we should have a party. Drinks for everybody! :D

Logan - As above, beers all round. :)

Upset spidey - I'm with you on the retcon, I want a purposely bad issue dedicated solely to destroying everything JMS has done to spidey. With ridiculous BS reasoning comparable to JMS's; explaining it all away. With ironic comments about how it feels to have someone come along and take a piss on your work.

rscal - Except JMS has creative control, its why he isn't working for DC as they wouldn't allow him to do what he wants. Besides, Joe Q is a retard... how hard is it to make him do what JMS wants. A shiney object, a doughnut and you could get him to commit murder.

[b0bb33z3r]

****ING JOE Q!! WHAT A FAT ****ING BASTARD!!!! **** HIM!!! ARRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!


I can't even begin to tell you how mad I am.

[b0bb33z3r]

So let me get this straight... kill Gwen, kill Mary Jane... his two love of loves dead... this is going to allow this broken man to be the swinging single again!? God forbid they let the character GROW, and not make him the 70 year old single fart with no love, no companionship, nothing in his empty life, sitting in the club still sporting his polyester threads and getting laughed at by everyone in the room.

[Herr Logan]

No drink love for the Doc. Le sigh.

What's yer poison, Doc? The thread-maker deserves some drink love. :up:

:wolverine

[Doc Destruction]

Whoo! Scotch neat or Gin and juice. I'm pretty tanked right now, so I could use another!

[gildea]

.....gin?

[Flonk]

That's because they are useless, mindless cowards.

Or it could be because the abuse you guys pour on people who have different opinions makes them not want to post. What's the point of trying to have a discussion, if you are trying to make a point and instead of debating you are called a mindless follower and a looser.

[Flonk]

Exactly.

You know what gets me the most? How fickle some fanman/fanwomen can be. Jenkins had a groundbreaking run, which paved the way for JMS. Until he got really sick, worked from bed/hospital, and his writing quality decreased.

Fans 4got how he started, and started insulting him from right and left, and hailed JMS a god, while he started his 'totem' stuff. People proudly stated, it's just a new direction, that doesn't change Spidey, and Jenkins should go to hell. Naturally, he now had to leave.

Now look at the mess Spidey's in. NO ONE can disagree with the fact that if Marvel stuck to Jenkins ideas, and direction, that Spidey comics right now would be MUCH more like great Spider-Man stories. Not saying that he should've been writing ASM, but whoever was tackling ASM, should've been told to take a note from him

Human, passionate, moralistic, heart wrenching, comedic, action packed super hero comics. That's what Spidey comics should be

Jenkin's run on Peter Parker was fantastic.

[Herr Logan]

Or it could be because the abuse you guys pour on people who have different opinions makes them not want to post. What's the point of trying to have a discussion, if you are trying to make a point and instead of debating you are called a mindless follower and a looser.

As if there hasn't been even more hostily to the tune of "haters" and "whiners" and so forth directed at us critics in the last two years.

Hmm... there's a lesson in there somewhere, but the hostility... it's so damn seductive and... fun!

:wolverine

[Gregatron]

I'm tired of all this.

I'm tired of all these immature fanboys and writers talking down to the medium.

I'm tired of all the winks to the audience in today's stories that say "We all know how dumb this material is! Let's make it kewl, instead!".


Regardless of how simplistic and/or corny one sees old stories (from the Golden and Silver Ages, in particular), the stories weren't used as tool to mock the characters or the medium. The creators banged this stuff out for a living, and treated the material as what it was, without condescending or "inside jokes" or pandering to whiny fanboys.


Back in the day, fans LIKED the material and the characters. Today's "fans" and "professionals" like to read sexual innuendo into a shot of the Sandman punching Spider-Man in the back--

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229304

--because that kind of grade-school humor represents the overall maturity level of today's fans.

I don't see mocking the characters and the material as any kind of love or respect. Just what kind of "fan" relentlessly mocks that which they profess to "like"?


Why is it that back when comics were aimed at younger people (and written as all-ages friendly), the material had so much more dignity and class?

UGH.

[Flonk]

Back in the day, fans LIKED the material and the characters. Today's "fans" and "professionals" like to read sexual innuendo into a shot of the Sandman punching Spider-Man in the back--

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229304

--because that kind of grade-school humor represents the overall maturity level of today's fans.


Wow. You really need to lighten up.

[Herr Logan]

Wow. You really need to lighten up.

Lighten up, dumb down... it's all the same in this case.

:wolverine

[Themanofbat]

Wow. You really need to lighten up.

But he has a point... especially with this line.

Why is it that back when comics were aimed at younger people (and written as all-ages friendly), the material had so much more dignity and class?

Anyone care to take a stab... because I can't answer that question... at least, not at the moment, because I'm focusing too much on work.

:(

[TheWhiteSpider]

I'm tired of all this.

Why is it that back when comics were aimed at younger people (and written as all-ages friendly), the material had so much more dignity and class?

UGH.

My friend, I think the real question is: "Why isn't it that way today and why does it look less and less likely that it'll ever be that way again?" Unfortunately, we know most of those questions' answers, and they aren't pretty.

[Herr Logan]

How messed up is it when you find yourself wishing for the "old days" when comics were what they should be, when you weren't even alive at the time?

I'm 24 and I find myself reminiscing about the Silver Age. Thank God for the Essential volumes. Second-hand nostalgia as discount prices.

:wolverine

[onceasaint]

My friend, I think the real question is: "Why isn't it that way today and why does it look less and less likely that it'll ever be that way again?" Unfortunately, we know most of those questions' answers, and they aren't pretty.

Every era of comics has its differences. This most recent era has been full of grim and grit. Shock value stories are what sold consistently. People like Cable were shoved down our throats (look at Alex Ross's design for Magog in Kingdom Come, making fun of characters like Cable). People seem tired of this. People also are quick to make fun of the campy stories written back in the day. There's got to be some balance, and a strong sense of care for characters. That's nearly impossible today, because there's always someone else writing the character after a time. There would have to be a lot of solid and dedicated writers, who arent afraid to look to the fans for suggestions. They also have to be able to look to the material to make sure what fans demand isnt straying from it too much.

I really do hope a lot of these comics find what they've been lacking lately.

[onceasaint]

How messed up is it when you find yourself wishing for the "old days" when comics were what they should be, when you weren't even alive at the time?

I'm 24 and I find myself reminiscing about the Silver Age. Thank God for the Essential volumes. Second-hand nostalgia as discount prices.

:wolverine

Amen to that one.

I feel the same way and I'm two years younger.

[Themanofbat]

How messed up is it when you find yourself wishing for the "old days" when comics were what they should be, when you weren't even alive at the time?

I'm 24 and I find myself reminiscing about the Silver Age. Thank God for the Essential volumes. Second-hand nostalgia as discount prices.

:wolverine

Well, I'll be 39 in the fall, and I'm very happy to have been reading comics in the 70's and thanks in part to Marvel Tales, I was able to get a good fix on "early" Spider-Man issues.

I know that stories are currently written to be in nice little 6 issue arcs so that they can be packaged into TPB's. Nice little begining, action in the middle, and an end where the staus quo remains the same... <yawn>

Give me the days where action occured, and sub-plots developped (be it single panel, or one page sub-plots). And when the current action ended, sub-plots became the foreffront of the action, and yet even more sub-plots developped. Sometimes, there were longer sub-plots the ended after many issues had passed. But the point was that despite constant Spidey action, there were reasons (aka the sub-plots) that kept me coming back for the next issue. Thus the never-ending soap opera that was the Amazing Spider-Man kept this kid running back to the store every 28 days.

Why comics can't be written THAT way these days, beyond the dollar value of the TPB market, is beyond me.

:(

[Niobe]

So JMS and Joey Q know they screwed up...

...and so do we. So why the hell wont they just admit it?

So Peters marriage is what destroyed the comics? Im at a loss for words...

[stillanerd]

Just so you know, all of our reactions to the Wizard Interview with Joe Quesada and JMS made to Fandom Wank here (http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/) and here (http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/933185.html#cutid1 )Celebrate, panic, or complain how you see fit.

[Herr Logan]

Just so you know, all of our reactions to the Wizard Interview with Joe Quesada and JMS made to Fandom Wank (http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/) Celebrate, panic, or complain how you see fit.

You and Greg got some spotlight! :up:

They called you "whiners." How adorable is that? I think I'll change my opinion, since I wouldn't ever want to be a considered a "whiner" by whoever the hell runs that site or posted on it, or however this Wank thing works.

:wolverine

[TheWhiteSpider]

Just so you know, all of our reactions to the Wizard Interview with Joe Quesada and JMS made to Fandom Wank here (http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/) and here (http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/933185.html#cutid1)Celebrate, panic, or complain how you see fit.

Wow. An online forum for people who.. monitor online forums. For "wankiness." And feature the results in article format.. For discussion. Still, you better give me back that bottle of Excedrin I loaned you.

[stillanerd]

You and Greg got some spotlight! :up:

They called you "whiners." How adorable is that? I think I'll change my opinion, since I wouldn't ever want to be a considered a "whiner" by whoever the hell runs that site or posted on it, or however this Wank thing works.

:wolverine

Hey, I'm stoked that I made the "highlights" list for TWO seperate message boards! :D And for the record, just in case you guys at Fandom Wank don't realize, ]this post (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8579514&postcount=51) was pure sarcasm, not "whining" on my part. :)

Wow. An online forum for people who.. monitor online forums. For "wankiness." And feature the results in article format.. For discussion. Still, you better give me back that bottle of Excedrin I loaned you.

*Tosses the bottle back* Better go easy on them, WS. Then not only will you be considered a "drugie" as well as a "whiner." :D

[dan1]

Well, I'll be 39 in the fall, and I'm very happy to have been reading comics in the 70's and thanks in part to Marvel Tales, I was able to get a good fix on "early" Spider-Man issues.

I know that stories are currently written to be in nice little 6 issue arcs so that they can be packaged into TPB's. Nice little begining, action in the middle, and an end where the staus quo remains the same... <yawn>

Give me the days where action occured, and sub-plots developped (be it single panel, or one page sub-plots). And when the current action ended, sub-plots became the foreffront of the action, and yet even more sub-plots developped. Sometimes, there were longer sub-plots the ended after many issues had passed. But the point was that despite constant Spidey action, there were reasons (aka the sub-plots) that kept me coming back for the next issue. Thus the never-ending soap opera that was the Amazing Spider-Man kept this kid running back to the store every 28 days.

Why comics can't be written THAT way these days, beyond the dollar value of the TPB market, is beyond me.

:(

Right, the point being that it wasn't so formulaic and therefore so much more enjoyable, simply for the spontaneity.

Joe Quesada had a business plan and speech that got a standing 'O' from the suits a couple of years ago, that said 'Marvel will focus on Trade Paper Backs,' but why that means the trade paperback has to have a beginning, middle and end is ludicrous.

You can smoosh 6 issues into a tpb that are all one-shots and it would still be just as worth it to the Trade Paper back consumers, who just want an easier way to read and organize and stay up to date with their hero.

[Herr Logan]

Right, the point being that it wasn't so formulaic and therefore so much more enjoyable, simply for the spontaneity.

Joe Quesada had a business plan and speech that got a standing 'O' from the suits a couple of years ago, that said 'Marvel will focus on Trade Paper Backs,' but why that means the trade paperback has to have a beginning, middle and end is ludicrous.

You can smoosh 6 issues into a tpb that are all one-shots and it would still be just as worth it to the Trade Paper back consumers, who just want an easier way to read and organize and stay up to date with their hero.

Spider-Man comics in the early days definitely usually had a more or less predictable formula to them (especially when new villains were introduced).
It's not that a formula is bad in and of itself, but it's that the current formula is a bad one. I like the formula from the early days. It worked well and didn't come off like an obvious attempt to cheat the fans.

Also, the fact that Stan Lee filled every page with lots of words that were not merely repetitive filler (it was often something said previously in another issue, but it wasn't that over-and-over, stuttering, mindless bull***** that Bendis can't live without) makes a real difference. That's another thing Joey Q should come out and say Stan "spoiled" the fans with. God forbid you have a real writer doing several books at once instead of a an overgrown teenager who rarely ever writes in a character's "voice" instead of his own.

:wolverine

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

Hey! I made it as well! Obviously Shinlyle made it... so we're "whiners"... according to some "whiners" checking forums for "whiners", and whine about our "Whining"...

[dan1]

Spider-Man comics in the early days definitely usually had a more or less predictable formula to them (especially when new villains were introduced).
It's not that a formula is bad in and of itself, but it's that the current formula is a bad one. I like the formula from the early days. It worked well and didn't come off like an obvious attempt to cheat the fans.

Also, the fact that Stan Lee filled every page with lots of words that were not merely repetitive filler (it was often something said previously in another issue, but it wasn't that over-and-over, stuttering, mindless bull***** that Bendis can't live without) makes a real difference. That's another thing Joey Q should come out and say Stan "spoiled" the fans with. God forbid you have a real writer doing several books at once instead of a an overgrown teenager who rarely ever writes in a character's "voice" instead of his own.

:wolverine

True, a formula then as well, but like you said, a better one. One that had plots, sub plots and sub sub plots, that ended in different intervals and a weaving web that eventually connected them to Peter Parker.

Bendis is completely over-rated, I agree. As long as you are respecting the character theme, history, continuity timeline, and you have some form of originality, I would rather have more dialogue than less, even if it's thought bubbles when the mask is on.

Thought bubbles were huge in my book.

[shinlyle]

Or it could be because the abuse you guys pour on people who have different opinions makes them not want to post. What's the point of trying to have a discussion, if you are trying to make a point and instead of debating you are called a mindless follower and a looser.

Or, it could be because they have no case. What they have is an opinion, one that they can't back up as being "correct", because the facts simply aren't there.

They come on here and start up ten "What du yu think about da Iron sPidy soot" threads, and then they run off. That's about the limit of their effectiveness, and their lack of contribution to threads where the creators admit that the ideas beign discussed are flops, well, that pretty much states that they are infact, worthless, mindless, cowards.

If you have an opinion and a well-tuned mind, angry, bitter fanboys like us shouldn't ward you off from this thread.

If you are too frightened to post here, that's your own issue. It's not like we can physically harm you. Get over yourselves.

[Doc Destruction]

Omg they linked this post lol. I'm such a whiner!

[WOLVERINE25TH]

I'm just glad someone else nailed Greg.

[Herr Logan]

Omg they linked this post lol. I'm such a whiner!

Damn right, you're a whiner! Just like everyone who deviates from the teeming, mindless masses of conformist drones. Why, I dare say that the U.S. was built on the foundations of whining!

:wolverine

[Cullen]

"Think as I think," said a man,
"Or you are abominably wicked;
You are a toad."

And after I had thought of it,
I said, "I will, then, be a toad"
Stephen Crane
The Black Rider and Other Lines

One of my favorite quotes. I try to keep it in mind during arguing points (such as with the Sins Past fans), but more often than not I fail.

I read the comments over at "Wank" and the cliche "If you don't like it, don't read it" popped up, along with "Read Ultimate instead." Both posters no doubt think themselves wise and above it all and I wish hope the illusion lasts longer for them than it did for me. But you want to talk about a worthless site.

Makes me miss "Fanboy Rampage" all the more... Now THAT was a site.

[Gregatron]

True, a formula then as well, but like you said, a better one. One that had plots, sub plots and sub sub plots, that ended in different intervals and a weaving web that eventually connected them to Peter Parker.

Bendis is completely over-rated, I agree. As long as you are respecting the character theme, history, continuity timeline, and you have some form of originality, I would rather have more dialogue than less, even if it's thought bubbles when the mask is on.

Thought bubbles were huge in my book.


Spider-Man was the first to really make extensive use of (and popularize) thought balloons in comics.

Now, all we have are pseudo-Frank Miller-esque first-person narrative caption boxes:

"I hit him hard. He hits me harder. I stab him with my stingers. He spits at me, then falls and dies. Sometimes a superhero's life is full of hard decisions. But it's easier when you have a hot wife at home to ****."

[Gregatron]

I'm just glad someone else nailed Greg.


...what?

[ScottishFogg]

it's always refreshing when leadership can admit to their mistakes.

but for the record, i liked "Sins Past." i can understand why some people, or a lot of people, didn't like it, but it was good, classic human drama.

i haven't read "The Other" yet, though, so i'll refrain from commenting on it.

[shinlyle]

it's always refreshing when leadership can admit to their mistakes.

but for the record, i liked "Sins Past." i can understand why some people, or a lot of people, didn't like it, but it was good, classic human drama.

i haven't read "The Other" yet, though, so i'll refrain from commenting on it.

Nothing much to know. In fact, read Zev's thread "Five Minute Spider-Man: The Other" thread. It sums it up rather nicely.

[Gregatron]

...what?


Oh. I see. A bunch of idiots who have nothing better to do than to pick apart the discussions of others.


Bring 'em on.

You're doing something wrong in this world if you don't have enemies and critics.

[Gregatron]

How messed up is it when you find yourself wishing for the "old days" when comics were what they should be, when you weren't even alive at the time?

I'm 24 and I find myself reminiscing about the Silver Age. Thank God for the Essential volumes. Second-hand nostalgia as discount prices.

:wolverine


One of the great tragedies of my fiction-loving-life is that I wasn't alive during the heyday of the Marvel Age of the 60s.

What I wouldn't give...

[Gregatron]

Every era of comics has its differences. This most recent era has been full of grim and grit. Shock value stories are what sold consistently. People like Cable were shoved down our throats (look at Alex Ross's design for Magog in Kingdom Come, making fun of characters like Cable). People seem tired of this. People also are quick to make fun of the campy stories written back in the day. There's got to be some balance, and a strong sense of care for characters. That's nearly impossible today, because there's always someone else writing the character after a time. There would have to be a lot of solid and dedicated writers, who arent afraid to look to the fans for suggestions. They also have to be able to look to the material to make sure what fans demand isnt straying from it too much.

I really do hope a lot of these comics find what they've been lacking lately.


The stories of yesteryear were not campy. In other words, the writers did not wink to the audience and say, "Look how dumb this is!" the way they do today.

[Gregatron]

Spider-Man comics in the early days definitely usually had a more or less predictable formula to them (especially when new villains were introduced).
It's not that a formula is bad in and of itself, but it's that the current formula is a bad one. I like the formula from the early days. It worked well and didn't come off like an obvious attempt to cheat the fans.

Also, the fact that Stan Lee filled every page with lots of words that were not merely repetitive filler (it was often something said previously in another issue, but it wasn't that over-and-over, stuttering, mindless bull***** that Bendis can't live without) makes a real difference. That's another thing Joey Q should come out and say Stan "spoiled" the fans with. God forbid you have a real writer doing several books at once instead of a an overgrown teenager who rarely ever writes in a character's "voice" instead of his own.

:wolverine


You've touched on something important here.

The classic Marvel character all had their own "voices". Spider-Man's, in particular, was very well-defined.

Today's creators mainly write stories as though it's "Me, but with superpowers". They give no thought as to how such well-established characters would behave in a given situation, or what they would say.

[Norman Osborn]

You've touched on something important here.

The classic Marvel character all had their own "voices". Spider-Man's, in particular, was very well-defined.

Today's creators mainly write stories as though it's "Me, but with superpowers". They give no thought as to how such well-established characters would behave in a given situation, or what they would say.

You need go no farther back than right after the "Other" nonsense...

.....Peter being examined in front of a room full of scientists with his mask off. Sure there were many who defended the scene by questioning how any of those present would know who Pete was from a hole in the wall.....but this defence misses the point all together....

.....it's simply something the character would never do....hell Pete wore a damn grocery bag over his head on the oft chance someone would recognize him swinging home across the rooftops!

[Cullen]

Good. Classic. Oh dear God, why don't they think of the children?

[Cullen]

I'm 24Well that explains a lot right there. Heh heh heh. :p:D

For the record, despite claiming I had a pet dinosaur as a child, I'm early thirties. I only feel old

and gray

and useless.

I lived during the glory days of the eighties, where comics were really overwritten and damn proud of it. Good stuff. Fun stuff. Classic stuff.

[Herr Logan]

Spider-Man was the first to really make extensive use of (and popularize) thought balloons in comics.

Now, all we have are pseudo-Frank Miller-esque first-person narrative caption boxes:

"I hit him hard. He hits me harder. I stab him with my stingers. He spits at me, then falls and dies. Sometimes a superhero's life is full of hard decisions. But it's easier when you have a hot wife at home to ****."

Heh!! :D

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

The stories of yesteryear were not campy. In other words, the writers did not wink to the audience and say, "Look how dumb this is!" the way they do today.

They did wink to the audience quite a bit, which is one of the things I found enjoyable. They did not, however, wink to say how dumb the stories were.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Well that explains a lot right there. Heh heh heh. :p:D

For the record, despite claiming I had a pet dinosaur as a child, I'm early thirties. I only feel old

and gray

and useless.

I lived during the glory days of the eighties, where comics were really overwritten and damn proud of it. Good stuff. Fun stuff. Classic stuff.

You already knew how old I was, old man. Now eat your extra-mashed apple sauce. There ya go... don't make a mess, now!

:wolverine

[Cullen]

You already knew how old I was, old man. Now eat your extra-mashed apple sauce. There ya go... don't make a mess, now!

:wolverineDamn it! You're right.

[ShadowBoxing]

God damnit...they broke up Scott and Jean and now this...leave one marriage untainted...MU is starting to look like Hollywood.

[Cullen]

God damnit...they broke up Scott and Jean and now this...leave one marriage untainted...MU is starting to look like Hollywood.Um, Sue and Reed's marriage is untainted. Isn't it?

[ShadowBoxing]

Um, Sue and Reed's marriage is untainted. Isn't it?We have one...I guess until they kill one of them (supposedly) right...or did that turn out to be a hoax.

...also I should mention its been revealed that Sue went skinny dipping with Black Panther...I guess we know what she likes.

[shinlyle]

Um, Sue and Reed's marriage is untainted. Isn't it?

Well....they're supposed to be split apart during the Civil War, from what I've heard. Nothing permanent, but seeing as how Reed sides with the Pro-registration side, and Sue is anti-registration, there are bound to be some irreconcilable differences there.

Hey, Marvel, why do you HATE marriage so much?

I must be a mutant since I love my wife and am happily married.

At least, I was a mutant until that "House of M" thing...:mad:

[Cullen]

All my illusions have now been shattered.

Thanks!:up::)

[shinlyle]

All my illusions have now been shattered.

Thanks!:up::)

Sorry, man. My illusions were shattered after I watched Spider-Man eat a guy's head. :(

[Cullen]

Sorry, man. My illusions were shattered after I watched Spider-Man eat a guy's head. :(All of my illusions about Spider-man died at "Sins Past". Marvel, however, still had one or two phantoms to be dispelled by the light...

[LarryLegend]

Well....they're supposed to be split apart during the Civil War, from what I've heard. Nothing permanent, but seeing as how Reed sides with the Pro-registration side, and Sue is anti-registration, there are bound to be some irreconcilable differences there.

Hey, Marvel, why do you HATE marriage so much?

I must be a mutant since I love my wife and am happily married.

At least, I was a mutant until that "House of M" thing...:mad:

Maybe they don't have successful marriages. :(

[shinlyle]

Maybe they don't have successful marriages. :(

I guess not! I always wanted to draw comics for Marvel, but now, I think I'd better go to DC. Marriage seems to be appreciated over there.

[LarryLegend]

I guess not! I always wanted to draw comics for Marvel, but now, I think I'd better go to DC. Marriage seems to be appreciated over there.

Say it ain't so Shinlyle. :eek:

[WOLVERINE25TH]

I always wanted to write fer Marvel...but not if this' th' **** I'll be writin' when I get there.

[shinlyle]

Say it ain't so Shinlyle. :eek:

Nah....I'm too much of an optimist (suprise, I know). I think one man can really make a difference....and I'm determined to be that one man.

Unless my own comic takes off, at which point, who needs 'em!! :D

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Someone's been watchin' Knight Rider again.

[shinlyle]

Someone's been watchin' Knight Rider again.

What are you talkin' about? My life is a journey....a journey into the shadowy life of a man....who does not exist....:o

[Cullen]

I always wanted to write fer Marvel...but not if this' th' **** I'll be writin' when I get there.You said it

[Gregatron]

They did wink to the audience quite a bit, which is one of the things I found enjoyable. They did not, however, wink to say how dumb the stories were.

:wolverine


Yes, that's what I was referring to. There were winks, but they were fun winks that didn't disparage the material. The material, characters, and fans (even the lunatic fringe which has now become the majority) were always treated with respect and dignity.

[Gregatron]

God damnit...they broke up Scott and Jean and now this...leave one marriage untainted...MU is starting to look like Hollywood.


Important safety tip:

Reed and Sue were a couple from the very start.

Scott and Jean became attracted to each other early on.


Spider-Man, however, had a slew of girlfriends. The only person who was close to being "the one" was Gwen Stacy. Regardless, Spidey was in-and-out of relationships for 25 years until he suddenly married Mary Jane (who retroactively became "the one").

Those other relationships (Reed/Sue, Scott/Jean) are core elements of their respective books that were there early on.

Spider-Man's is not.

Or, at least, it didn't used to be.

[stillanerd]

Well....they're supposed to be split apart during the Civil War, from what I've heard. Nothing permanent, but seeing as how Reed sides with the Pro-registration side, and Sue is anti-registration, there are bound to be some irreconcilable differences there.

Hey, Marvel, why do you HATE marriage so much?

I must be a mutant since I love my wife and am happily married.

At least, I was a mutant until that "House of M" thing...:mad:

Hey, Shin, let's be fair here. Marvel doesn't hate ALL marriages. I mean, look at how they're promoting the upcoming wedding of Black Panther and Storm. Joe Q is comparing it to the wedding of Prince Charles and Princess Diana (and we all know how THAT marriage turned out, don't we kids?)

Marvel does like marriage...just certain marriages. If two comic book characters who were created in entirely seperate comic books, each one with their own template and milieu, then not only can they have--no, MUST HAVE--a successful romance, they are also marraigable material--and woe to anyone who criticizes them for how it's nothing more than a sales stunt and that such relationships NEVER LAST in comic books. However, comic book characters, who were created exclusively for a particular title, and who are involved in romantic pairing and relationships, like Spider-Man and Mary Jane, and Reed and Sue--THOSE marriages are BAD and NEED to be--no, MUST BE--dismantled in the eyes of Joe Q.

The Quesadese definition of marriage: the coming together of two people for the sole purpose of generating profit for me--Joe Quesada. :D

[Gregatron]

My rule of thumb:

Reed and Sue are the one rock-solid married couple at Marvel (with the occasional argument), and they are the cornerstone of the MU's couples; everyone else's relationships are always in flux somehow (be it fights, break-ups, tragedies, etc.).

[ragingdemon155]

My rule of thumb:

Reed and Sue are the one rock-solid married couple at Marvel (with the occasional argument), and they are the cornerstone of the MU's couples; everyone else's relationships are always in flux somehow (be it fights, break-ups, tragedies, etc.).

And that's what I don't understand.

Why is Joey Q so scared of "marriage" yet the idea of stingers, Spider-man flying, Spider-man shedding his skin and being reborn, gwen sleeping with Norman and having his babies all sound "amazing and groundbreaking" to him?

[shinlyle]

Hey, Shin, let's be fair here. Marvel doesn't hate ALL marriages. I mean, look at how they're promote the upcoming wedding of Black Panther and Storm. Joe Q is comparing it to the wedding of Prince Charles and Princess Diana (and we all know how THAT marriage turned out, don't we kids?)

Marvel does like marriage. If two comic book characters who were created in entirely seperate comic books, each one with their own template and milieu, then not only can they have--no, MUST HAVE--a successful romance, but are also marraigable material--and woe to anyone who criticizes them for how it's nothing more than a sales stunt and that such relationships NEVER LAST in comic books. However, comic book characters, who were created exclusively for a particular title, and who are involved in romantic pairing and relationships, like Spider-Man and Mary Jane, and Reed and Sue--THOSE marriages are BAD and NEED to be--no, MUST BE--dismantled in the eyes of Joe Q.

The Quesadese definition of marriage: the coming together of two people for the sole purpose of generating profit for me--Joe Quesada. :D

Beautiful post....so true! :up:

[shinlyle]

And that's what I don't understand.

Why is Joey Q so scared of "marriage" yet the idea of stingers, Spider-man flying, Spider-man shedding his skin and being reborn, gwen sleeping with Norman and having his babies all sound "amazing and groundbreaking" to him?

Because he's so far out of touch with these characters that he only sees them as dollar signs, not loved fictional characters that have endured for many years.

[ShadowBoxing]

Hey, Shin, let's be fair here. Marvel doesn't hate ALL marriages. I mean, look at how they're promote the upcoming wedding of Black Panther and Storm. Joe Q is comparing it to the wedding of Prince Charles and Princess Diana (and we all know how THAT marriage turned out, don't we kids?)

Marvel does like marriage. If two comic book characters who were created in entirely seperate comic books, each one with their own template and milieu, then not only can they have--no, MUST HAVE--a successful romance, but are also marraigable material--and woe to anyone who criticizes them for how it's nothing more than a sales stunt and that such relationships NEVER LAST in comic books. However, comic book characters, who were created exclusively for a particular title, and who are involved in romantic pairing and relationships, like Spider-Man and Mary Jane, and Reed and Sue--THOSE marriages are BAD and NEED to be--no, MUST BE--dismantled in the eyes of Joe Q.

The Quesadese definition of marriage: the coming together of two people for the sole purpose of generating profit for me--Joe Quesada. :DScott and Jean is another great example...two characters who from the beginning were written to be with eachother...oh no, gone:mad:

[ragingdemon155]

Scott and Jean is another great example...two characters who from the beginning were written to be with eachother...oh no, gone:mad:

I too...miss Scott and Jean.:(

[Gregatron]

Something interesting to note...

The people who won't even consider giving up the marriage insist that the opponents "want to go back to the old status quo". However, the notion of a married Spider-Man does, in fact, inflict a far more inflexible status quo on the character.


Now, not to say that I would favor something like divorce, but that would fit in with the "kid who can't get a break/lovable loser" theme that Spider-Man used to have.

But really, when has Spider-Man been like that in recent times? Happily married to a model. Successful photography career, later successful teaching career. Member of the New Avengers. Living in Avengers Tower.

Today, something like a divorce would seem like a mild blip on the radar for this happy, succesful adult.

Back in the day, it would have been a crushing blow to our young, struggling student, and he would have heroically struggled through his pain and grief over it.



Even if the marriage is somehow negated, the obsessive fanboys/creators running the medium into the ground will not allow anyone to forget, heal, and move on after the rough period following the dissolution of the marriage.

Which is exactly what happened with Gwen Stacy after her death.

"Those who fail to remember history..."

[Doc Destruction]

There are sooo many cool things that could be done with their marriage it's just insanity.

Writers on the Spidey titles are either single or too damn lazy to explore any of them.

[shinlyle]

There are sooo many cool things that could be done with their marriage it's just insanity.

Writers on the Spidey titles are either single or too damn lazy to explore any of them.

Or both!:up:

[ragingdemon155]

There are sooo many cool things that could be done with their marriage it's just insanity.

Writers on the Spidey titles are either single or too damn lazy to explore any of them.

:up:

Agreed.

[Cullen]

There are sooo many cool things that could be done with their marriage it's just insanity.

Writers on the Spidey titles are either single or too damn lazy to explore any of them.Just for the record, I've never liked the Peter/M.J. thang and even I agree with you. Back in it's early days, there were moments when I found the marriage tolerable, even borderline OK. It can be that way again. Maybe even better.

This isn't what I'm hoping for, though, but I do think you're right...

[ScottishFogg]

what issue was this in? not the June issue . . .

[Herr Logan]

There are sooo many cool things that could be done with their marriage it's just insanity.

Writers on the Spidey titles are either single or too damn lazy to explore any of them.

Unfortunately, there are sooo many uncool things that could be done with their marriage as well, and they've already been getting that ball rolling.

I'm not advocating breaking up the marriage-- as I said, I never would have had him get married in the first place, but breaking them up or killing MJ will just ruin everything.
Just venting my nihilistic feelings towards those blithering hacks that currently control Spider-Man comics, is all.

:wolverine

[spideylover89]

Something interesting to note...

The people who won't even consider giving up the marriage insist that the opponents "want to go back to the old status quo". However, the notion of a married Spider-Man does, in fact, inflict a far more inflexible status quo on the character.


Now, not to say that I would favor something like divorce, but that would fit in with the "kid who can't get a break/lovable loser" theme that Spider-Man used to have.

But really, when has Spider-Man been like that in recent times? Happily married to a model. Successful photography career, later successful teaching career. Member of the New Avengers. Living in Avengers Tower.

Today, something like a divorce would seem like a mild blip on the radar for this happy, succesful adult.

Back in the day, it would have been a crushing blow to our young, struggling student, and he would have heroically struggled through his pain and grief over it.



Even if the marriage is somehow negated, the obsessive fanboys/creators running the medium into the ground will not allow anyone to forget, heal, and move on after the rough period following the dissolution of the marriage.

Which is exactly what happened with Gwen Stacy after her death.

"Those who fail to remember history..."

Now out of all the stuff you mentioned, the marriage is the least of their problems. You want Pete to remain a loser then get rid of the Avengers tower and start paying more attention to his career. pete is almost NEVER in school anymore and yet we never see him suffer any consequences for it. He can easily have an unstable job considering how little he shows up, but no it's the marriage that is wrong. :rolleyes:
Just because he's married doesn't mean he can't be a lovable loser. There are so many other aspects of life that the writers can mess with, but they don't because they are lazy.

[Gregatron]

Now out of all the stuff you mentioned, the marriage is the least of their problems. You want Pete to remain a loser then get rid of the Avengers tower and start paying more attention to his career. pete is almost NEVER in school anymore and yet we never see him suffer any consequences for it. He can easily have an unstable job considering how little he shows up, but no it's the marriage that is wrong. :rolleyes:
Just because he's married doesn't mean he can't be a lovable loser. There are so many other aspects of life that the writers can mess with, but they don't because they are lazy.


By defintion, a marriage is a loving, stable union between two adults. This is not what Spider-Man is about. Spider-Man is about the adventures of a heroic youngster named Peter Parker, NOT "the adventures of Peter and Mary Jane, a happily married couple (and maybe Aunt May) who sometimes argue".

[Arkady Rossovich]

Marvel is so full of itself it takes all this time for them to even say that what they did was nonsense...sad.

[roach]

By defintion, a marriage is a loving, stable union between two adults. This is not what Spider-Man is about. Spider-Man is about the adventures of a heroic youngster named Peter Parker, NOT "the adventures of Peter and Mary Jane, a happily married couple (and maybe Aunt May) who sometimes argue".


the character has passed you my friend....if you want to read teenage Peter stories then there are the reprints and the Ultimate stories

[Gregatron]

the character has passed you my friend....if you want to read teenage Peter stories then there are the reprints and the Ultimate stories


That's what everyone says, over and over and over.

But splintering one fantastic concept (and character) into "a different Spider-Man for every taste and every age bracket" is still a huge mistake.

[SpideyInATree]

Or, it could be because they have no case. What they have is an opinion, one that they can't back up as being "correct", because the facts simply aren't there.

They come on here and start up ten "What du yu think about da Iron sPidy soot" threads, and then they run off. That's about the limit of their effectiveness, and their lack of contribution to threads where the creators admit that the ideas beign discussed are flops, well, that pretty much states that they are infact, worthless, mindless, cowards.

If you have an opinion and a well-tuned mind, angry, bitter fanboys like us shouldn't ward you off from this thread.

If you are too frightened to post here, that's your own issue. It's not like we can physically harm you. Get over yourselves.

And isn't this what Flonk is talking about? You say what they think isn't "correct" because they don't have "facts" to back it up. Yet in the next paragraph you call posters who differ from your opinion worthless, mindless cowards.

So, these people are worthless, mindless cowards because they don't AGREE with you? Right. That makes a lot of sense. Maybe they don't want to be harrassed by strangers who think they know it all about a fictional comic book character.

Not everyone on these boards is going to write a 15 paragraph post about Spider-Man. Some people don't have the time or want to take out the time to do that. Some people just want to share their reactions with other people who read comic books. And then when they say, "I like the Iron Spidey costume" they get like 6 or 7 posters who have to drop down and make fun of them like some kind of secret fraternity of Spider-Man fans.

And when a poster does give an explanation of why they like something, or dislike something, they are still confronted with posters who have to insult someone simply because they differ on opinions. It's on both sides.

I'm no innocent here. I've had run in's with posters on here. But it has nothing to do with opinions or thoughts. It mostly has to do with the attitude that gets shown when someone posts something that the "fraternity" doesn't enjoy. Arrogance and condescending comments because posters think they know more about a fictional character than others.

Maybe instead of treating these "worthless, mindless cowards" like they're below you. Maybe you should educate them and help them.

But if you want people to explain to you why they like something maybe you should try not to insult people after they do. Because, either way, no matter how well somebody puts something some posters are just going to be upset because they don't agree with it. And insulting a poster because he/she says what he/she thinks, no matter how large or small the post is, is pretty hateful. Not everyone agrees with you. Because a small general population of a message board agrees they don't enjoy the state of Spider-Man makes you think that EVERY Spider-Man fan should feel that way?

Not everyone sees things in the same light.

I know the state of Spider-Man isn't the greatest in the world. But just because things aren't going so well doesn't mean I'm going to hate EVERY SINGLE THING THAT IS DONE IN THE SPIDER-MAN UNIVERSE. I enjoyed the totem saga. I loved the Book of Ezekiel storyline. Sins Past was a horrible idea. The Skin Deep arc was boring and a rehash of Molten Man. The New Avengers arc was fantastic. The Other was very mediocre and for all these new powers you'd think it would have had more of an impact. Hudlin's portion of it was like having a drill going into your skull. And JMS got a little overzealous with the totem aspect of the story. It should have been left alone at the end of Book of Ezekiel. And I like the new suit for what it's purpose is. To create a stronger bond between Peter and Tony. It's a plot device and the classic suit will be back in no time.

I'm not like everyone else here. I'm not going to call for JMS to be burned at the stake and I'm not going to call Joe Quesada a fat piece of crap all day long. JMS is a good writer and he's the one who got me back into the Spidey comics. Quesada, I don't agree with him most of the time, but we're stuck with him as EIC. There really isn't much we can do about that.

Because I can find enjoyment from certain stories and aspects of the stories...that must make me less of a fan? Because I'm not screaming at the top of my lungs that the "616 Spider-Man is DEAD!!" that makes me less of a fan in some posters eyes? Sounds to me like some people, even though their age says their grown up, need to grow up.

[LarryLegend]

By defintion, a marriage is a loving, stable union between two adults. This is not what Spider-Man is about. Spider-Man is about the adventures of a heroic youngster named Peter Parker, NOT "the adventures of Peter and Mary Jane, a happily married couple (and maybe Aunt May) who sometimes argue".

Greg, Peter hasn't been a youngster for quite some time. Heck he toyed with marrying Gwen and he would have been 19 or 20. Get off the Peter should be in High School kick.

[shinlyle]

And isn't this what Flonk is talking about? You say what they think isn't "correct" because they don't have "facts" to back it up. Yet in the next paragraph you call posters who differ from your opinion worthless, mindless cowards.

So, these people are worthless, mindless cowards because they don't AGREE with you? Right. That makes a lot of sense. Maybe they don't want to be harrassed by strangers who think they know it all about a fictional comic book character.

Not everyone on these boards is going to write a 15 paragraph post about Spider-Man. Some people don't have the time or want to take out the time to do that. Some people just want to share their reactions with other people who read comic books. And then when they say, "I like the Iron Spidey costume" they get like 6 or 7 posters who have to drop down and make fun of them like some kind of secret fraternity of Spider-Man fans.

And when a poster does give an explanation of why they like something, or dislike something, they are still confronted with posters who have to insult someone simply because they differ on opinions. It's on both sides.

I'm no innocent here. I've had run in's with posters on here. But it has nothing to do with opinions or thoughts. It mostly has to do with the attitude that gets shown when someone posts something that the "fraternity" doesn't enjoy. Arrogance and condescending comments because posters think they know more about a fictional character than others.

Maybe instead of treating these "worthless, mindless cowards" like they're below you. Maybe you should educate them and help them.

But if you want people to explain to you why they like something maybe you should try not to insult people after they do. Because, either way, no matter how well somebody puts something some posters are just going to be upset because they don't agree with it. And insulting a poster because he/she says what he/she thinks, no matter how large or small the post is, is pretty hateful. Not everyone agrees with you. Because a small general population of a message board agrees they don't enjoy the state of Spider-Man makes you think that EVERY Spider-Man fan should feel that way?

Not everyone sees things in the same light.

I know the state of Spider-Man isn't the greatest in the world. But just because things aren't going so well doesn't mean I'm going to hate EVERY SINGLE THING THAT IS DONE IN THE SPIDER-MAN UNIVERSE. I enjoyed the totem saga. I loved the Book of Ezekiel storyline. Sins Past was a horrible idea. The Skin Deep arc was boring and a rehash of Molten Man. The New Avengers arc was fantastic. The Other was very mediocre and for all these new powers you'd think it would have had more of an impact. Hudlin's portion of it was like having a drill going into your skull. And JMS got a little overzealous with the totem aspect of the story. It should have been left alone at the end of Book of Ezekiel. And I like the new suit for what it's purpose is. To create a stronger bond between Peter and Tony. It's a plot device and the classic suit will be back in no time.

I'm not like everyone else here. I'm not going to call for JMS to be burned at the stake and I'm not going to call Joe Quesada a fat piece of crap all day long. JMS is a good writer and he's the one who got me back into the Spidey comics. Quesada, I don't agree with him most of the time, but we're stuck with him as EIC. There really isn't much we can do about that.

Because I can find enjoyment from certain stories and aspects of the stories...that must make me less of a fan? Because I'm not screaming at the top of my lungs that the "616 Spider-Man is DEAD!!" that makes me less of a fan in some posters eyes? Sounds to me like some people, even though their age says their grown up, need to grow up.

So...if we start up topics about how Joey Q and JMS sucks and they always will, and then run and hide every time someone tries to debate with us, that'll make you happy?

Please.

There have been a dozen or so Iron Spidey threads popping up over the last week in support of a costume that roughly 70% of the posters on this board hate. Then, when the people behind the changes (in costume and character) admit that they screwed up, all their little lap-dog supporters run off and refuse to comment? What does that make them? Cowards. No way around it.

Where is Iron Spidy (the poster) nowadays? Where is Kainedamo? Where is Won'08? They all seem to appear with some asanine topic about how JMS is a Genius or the "Other" ruled or some such crap, and then they are gone. Now that the professionals have admitted that the ideas they've been spewing for months are utter crap, all the trolls have returned underground. That's what I'm saying. Did I call you by name? No. I have nothing against you, even though you have a freakin' mad-on for me. You post here regardless of whether or not anyone likes you. That is annoying, but it is also to be commended.

I'm tired of people not having the balls to stand up for what they feel. Some people are such mindless slaves to marvel, that I'm sure they'll be in here soon talking about how they don't like "The Other" anymore, simply because JMS and Joey Q said it was crap. It's going to happen. Just wait and see. People will change their tunes and start embracing whatever else they are spoon-fed. Proof that they didn't form an opinion of their own on the story, they just believed the hype and bought into it. That makes them mindless.

As for your "Joey C is EIC and there's nothing we can do about it" crap, you need to stall that s***. If you really believe tha there is nothing that you can do, then you are spineless. You want to get rid of him, then vote with your wallet! Quit buying New Avengers or Whatever book he's hyping that maybe doesn't deserve the praise. There's always something you can do! Buying books you despise and going along with things you disagree with is never the way to be, man.I don't like the direction of ASM or FNSM, so guess what? I'm dropping them. That's right. Marvel is losing 6 bucks and some change every month until I start buying those books again. Will that get Joey Q to resign and turn Marvel over to someone with more respect for the characters? No. What if everyone did that, though? What if people quit incessantly b****ing about the books they buy, and just quit buying them when they stopped liking them? Change would follow.

So, if I offended you....tough. I'm not here to be liked. I'm not aiming for you. I'm not sitting here saying "Let's hit Spideyinatree right between the eyes". I'm simply pointing out things that are true about certain posters and their behaviors. If you don't lime it, then I'm sorry.

And no, enjoying the current stories doesn't make you less of a fan. Still, you should be able to tell us why you enjoyed tham and what you thought was so great about them. If you just like the books because the writer/artist/publisher says you should, then, yeah, I'd say that makes you less of a fan. I'd say it makes you a tool. (not saying you are)

So, there. That's my rebuttle. As for educating these "worthless, mindless cowards", I can only calmly ask them why they like books and ask them their thoughts on things so many times before I begin to remember that old saying:

"You can't teach those who refuse to listen".

[SpideyInATree]

So...if we start up topics about how Joey Q and JMS sucks and they always will, and then run and hide every time someone tries to debate with us, that'll make you happy?

Please.

There have been a dozen or so Iron Spidey threads popping up over the last week in support of a costume that roughly 70% of the posters on this board hate. Then, when the people behind the changes (in costume and character) admit that they screwed up, all their little lap-dog supporters run off and refuse to comment? What does that make them? Cowards. No way around it.

Where is Iron Spidy (the poster) nowadays? Where is Kainedamo? Where is Won'08? They all seem to appear with some asanine topic about how JMS is a Genius or the "Other" ruled or some such crap, and then they are gone. Now that the professionals have admitted that the ideas they've been spewing for months are utter crap, all the trolls have returned underground. That's what I'm saying. Did I call you by name? No. I have nothing against you, even though you have a freakin' mad-on for me. You post here regardless of whether or not anyone likes you. That is annoying, but it is also to be commended.

I'm tired of people not having the balls to stand up for what they feel. Some people are such mindless slaves to marvel, that I'm sure they'll be in here soon talking about how they don't like "The Other" anymore, simply because JMS and Joey Q said it was crap. It's going to happen. Just wait and see. People will change their tunes and start embracing whatever else they are spoon-fed. Proof that they didn't form an opinion of their own on the story, they just believed the hype and bought into it. That makes them mindless.

As for your "Joey C is EIC and there's nothing we can do about it" crap, you need to stall that s***. If you really believe tha there is nothing that you can do, then you are spineless. You want to get rid of him, then vote with your wallet! Quit buying New Avengers or Whatever book he's hyping that maybe doesn't deserve the praise. There's always something you can do! Buying books you despise and going along with things you disagree with is never the way to be, man.I don't like the direction of ASM or FNSM, so guess what? I'm dropping them. That's right. Marvel is losing 6 bucks and some change every month until I start buying those books again. Will that get Joey Q to resign and turn Marvel over to someone with more respect for the characters? No. What if everyone did that, though? What if people quit incessantly b****ing about the books they buy, and just quit buying them when they stopped liking them? Change would follow.

So, if I offended you....tough. I'm not here to be liked. I'm not aiming for you. I'm not sitting here saying "Let's hit Spideyinatree right between the eyes". I'm simply pointing out things that are true about certain posters and their behaviors. If you don't lime it, then I'm sorry.

And no, enjoying the current stories doesn't make you less of a fan. Still, you should be able to tell us why you enjoyed tham and what you thought was so great about them. If you just like the books because the writer/artist/publisher says you should, then, yeah, I'd say that makes you less of a fan. I'd say it makes you a tool. (not saying you are)

So, there. That's my rebuttle. As for educating these "worthless, mindless cowards", I can only calmly ask them why they like books and ask them their thoughts on things so many times before I begin to remember that old saying:

"You can't teach those who refuse to listen".

So, you're upset because these guys make threads that you don't agree with? Now a nice debate is great. All I'm trying to say is: Is it really necessary to insult people all the time? I don't know your entire history with those other posters that you mentioned. Maybe they insulted you first.

But I'm also pointing at those posters too. Not everyone is so innocent here in these forums.

And I know you didn't point out my name. But a few other posters HAVE pointed out my name into a "group" that I'm not really a part of. No, I'm not enjoying something simply because I'm told to. I enjoy things because it's how I feel. But I'm also not going to let myself be alienated here because I'm not saying, "I'm not reading Spider-Man comics anymore until they do what I want". Maybe that's how you feel. And others feel.

But I don't. Like I said, I'm different than a lot of you guys on these forums. I don't take things so seriously. Spider-Man is a comic book character and I don't like EVERY THING that's written in every Spider-Man book. There are things that irk me and things I dislike. But just simply because I dislike a few things doesn't mean I'm going to give up on the character.

I'm a Spider-Man fan. Have been since I was 8 years old. I like reading Spider-Man, through the good times and the bad. But just because I dislike a few things doesn't mean I'm going to give up the book.

Maybe you, and other posters, want to campaign and not read the book. You guys do what you have to do. But I love Spider-Man too much to give up the book simply because I thought Reginald Hudlin's portion of The Other was a disgrace to comic books. Or because Sins Past was such a horrible, horrible idea. Just set backs and lessons that need to be learned by future creators that things in the past should be left there.

But the entire point is, we're all Spider-Man fans. We're all comic book fans. You'd think that we'd really all get along fairly well. But that's not the case, unfortunately, and because one guy thinks Spider-Man's suit is awful and the other things its awesome....does it really call for each of us to be so condescending and hateful? Neither side is wrong when they state their opinions. Yet a small debate about a fictional character we all love turns into giant flame wars of he said, she said. And nobody comes out the wiser either.

[Herr Logan]

So...if we start up topics about how Joey Q and JMS sucks and they always will, and then run and hide every time someone tries to debate with us, that'll make you happy?

Please.

There have been a dozen or so Iron Spidey threads popping up over the last week in support of a costume that roughly 70% of the posters on this board hate. Then, when the people behind the changes (in costume and character) admit that they screwed up, all their little lap-dog supporters run off and refuse to comment? What does that make them? Cowards. No way around it.

Where is Iron Spidy (the poster) nowadays? Where is Kainedamo? Where is Won'08? They all seem to appear with some asanine topic about how JMS is a Genius or the "Other" ruled or some such crap, and then they are gone. Now that the professionals have admitted that the ideas they've been spewing for months are utter crap, all the trolls have returned underground. That's what I'm saying. Did I call you by name? No. I have nothing against you, even though you have a freakin' mad-on for me. You post here regardless of whether or not anyone likes you. That is annoying, but it is also to be commended.

I'm tired of people not having the balls to stand up for what they feel. Some people are such mindless slaves to marvel, that I'm sure they'll be in here soon talking about how they don't like "The Other" anymore, simply because JMS and Joey Q said it was crap. It's going to happen. Just wait and see. People will change their tunes and start embracing whatever else they are spoon-fed. Proof that they didn't form an opinion of their own on the story, they just believed the hype and bought into it. That makes them mindless.

As for your "Joey C is EIC and there's nothing we can do about it" crap, you need to stall that s***. If you really believe tha there is nothing that you can do, then you are spineless. You want to get rid of him, then vote with your wallet! Quit buying New Avengers or Whatever book he's hyping that maybe doesn't deserve the praise. There's always something you can do! Buying books you despise and going along with things you disagree with is never the way to be, man.I don't like the direction of ASM or FNSM, so guess what? I'm dropping them. That's right. Marvel is losing 6 bucks and some change every month until I start buying those books again. Will that get Joey Q to resign and turn Marvel over to someone with more respect for the characters? No. What if everyone did that, though? What if people quit incessantly b****ing about the books they buy, and just quit buying them when they stopped liking them? Change would follow.

So, if I offended you....tough. I'm not here to be liked. I'm not aiming for you. I'm not sitting here saying "Let's hit Spideyinatree right between the eyes". I'm simply pointing out things that are true about certain posters and their behaviors. If you don't lime it, then I'm sorry.

And no, enjoying the current stories doesn't make you less of a fan. Still, you should be able to tell us why you enjoyed tham and what you thought was so great about them. If you just like the books because the writer/artist/publisher says you should, then, yeah, I'd say that makes you less of a fan. I'd say it makes you a tool. (not saying you are)

So, there. That's my rebuttle. As for educating these "worthless, mindless cowards", I can only calmly ask them why they like books and ask them their thoughts on things so many times before I begin to remember that old saying:

"You can't teach those who refuse to listen".

Once more, with feeling!


Just funnin'... that had feeling a-plenty. ;)

That post is the new post of the freakin' year. :up:


:wolverine

[shinlyle]

Once more, with feeling!


Just funnin'... that had feeling a-plenty. ;)

That post is the new post of the freakin' year. :up:


:wolverine

Aw...shucks....:O

I can't take all the credit. This award actually belongs to thsoe imbeciles who speak before they think, and of course, nice folk like Spideyinatree, who, while they mean well, have absolutely no idea what I'm talkng about half the time, judging from the fact that he still thinks this is an "agree with me or go home" debate.

[SpideyInATree]

Aw...shucks....:O

I can't take all the credit. This award actually belongs to thsoe imbeciles who speak before they think, and of course, nice folk like Spideyinatree, who, while they mean well, have absolutely no idea what I'm talkng about half the time, judging from the fact that he still thinks this is an "agree with me or go home" debate.

Putting words in my mouth again, I see. I don't remember saying or implying that people have to agree with me.

However, I do know what you are talking about but it is you who fail to try and see things from my perspective.

All I want is for posters to stop insulting one another simply because one doesn't agree with the other. Most of the people who post here ARE ADULTS. And we aren't really acting like that too much. You, me, and EVERYONE ELSE included barring a few posters who are always civil and respectful.

[shinlyle]

So, you're upset because these guys make threads that you don't agree with? Now a nice debate is great. All I'm trying to say is: Is it really necessary to insult people all the time? I don't know your entire history with those other posters that you mentioned. Maybe they insulted you first.

But I'm also pointing at those posters too. Not everyone is so innocent here in these forums.

And I know you didn't point out my name. But a few other posters HAVE pointed out my name into a "group" that I'm not really a part of. No, I'm not enjoying something simply because I'm told to. I enjoy things because it's how I feel. But I'm also not going to let myself be alienated here because I'm not saying, "I'm not reading Spider-Man comics anymore until they do what I want". Maybe that's how you feel. And others feel.

But I don't. Like I said, I'm different than a lot of you guys on these forums. I don't take things so seriously. Spider-Man is a comic book character and I don't like EVERY THING that's written in every Spider-Man book. There are things that irk me and things I dislike. But just simply because I dislike a few things doesn't mean I'm going to give up on the character.

I'm a Spider-Man fan. Have been since I was 8 years old. I like reading Spider-Man, through the good times and the bad. But just because I dislike a few things doesn't mean I'm going to give up the book.

Maybe you, and other posters, want to campaign and not read the book. You guys do what you have to do. But I love Spider-Man too much to give up the book simply because I thought Reginald Hudlin's portion of The Other was a disgrace to comic books. Or because Sins Past was such a horrible, horrible idea. Just set backs and lessons that need to be learned by future creators that things in the past should be left there.

But the entire point is, we're all Spider-Man fans. We're all comic book fans. You'd think that we'd really all get along fairly well. But that's not the case, unfortunately, and because one guy thinks Spider-Man's suit is awful and the other things its awesome....does it really call for each of us to be so condescending and hateful? Neither side is wrong when they state their opinions. Yet a small debate about a fictional character we all love turns into giant flame wars of he said, she said. And nobody comes out the wiser either.

First off, I'm not upset about anyone starting a thread I don't like. I'm pissed off as hell when someone starts a new thread pimping out something everyone else hates, when they could have just responded in the post half-way down the front page. The multiple "Iron Spidey" threads are a prime example of this. I've seen only two or three threads about this suit that had anything different to say from other threads. It's annoying, and it's spamming. Plain and Simple. If I started a thread entitled: "LOL! JMS and Joey Q messed up!!" then, I would expect to be dealt with as a nuisance, especially seeing as how this thread is the exact same thread, but and it's at the top of the front page.

As for this not insulting people thing, it would be easier to be civil if other posters didn't post asanine comments that we hear every day, such as:

1) Quit complaining
2) You fear change
3) Well I liked it
4) You still buy it


These things are repeated ad nauseum and are never true. Quit complaining? It's a f***ing message board....on the internet! It's built to house the complaints and critiques of the consumer!! DEAL WITH IT!!! You fear change..? No, we can respect good change, but we HATE asanine changes that serve no purpose and make little or no progress in the story. This would include stupid costumes, stingers, Spidey as a murderer, etc. Well I liked it....? Good for you, but this isn't an argument. It isn't based on facts. It's an opinion. State some reasons why you liked it that contradict why I duslike it, or don't contribute. You still buy it...? No....alot of us don't, and that's our right.

Now, I respect you as a fellow Spidey fan, man, and if you want to keep reading the books, then that's your perogitive. Me, I've got better things I can do with my time. I could actually take a ball-peen hammer to my testacles, and I'd probably get more out of it than I get out of the current Spidey books. Maybe a Ball-peen hammer to the scrotum isn't your thing, so I'll respect your opinion and you can respect mine.

Still, if you say that I'm pounding myself in the goodie-bag because I fear change, then we're going to have to fight. :mad:

[shinlyle]

Putting words in my mouth again, I see. I don't remember saying or implying that people have to agree with me.

However, I do know what you are talking about but it is you who fail to try and see things from my perspective.

All I want is for posters to stop insulting one another simply because one doesn't agree with the other. Most of the people who post here ARE ADULTS. And we aren't really acting like that too much. You, me, and EVERYONE ELSE included barring a few posters who are always civil and respectful.

it was supposed to be a joke, man...:(

I get what you are saying, man. Yeah, it would be nice if we could all get along, but the world isn't a perfect place. We can try and be respectful and nice, but there are always going to be those few asses who make things harder than they must be, and they have to be dealt with. It's the way of things, I suppose.

I would much rather be able to come here and not have to get into a heated argument every day, but then I think about how the entire internet would collapse if you couldn't just show up and rant aimlessly about how Spider-Man isn't Spider-Man because of his hair, costume, stingers, bow-tie, etc.

It's the way of things. You don't have to like it, man. In fact, I'd hope you don't thrive on confrontation. I'm glad you don't. Me....I don't thrive on it, but I am pretty good at it.

In other words, I see your point, I'm just making sure that you can see mine.

and that comment was a joke....dammit.

[SpideyInATree]

First off, I'm not upset about anyone starting a thread I don't like. I'm pissed off as hell when someone starts a new thread pimping out something everyone else hates, when they could have just responded in the post half-way down the front page. The multiple "Iron Spidey" threads are a prime example of this. I've seen only two or three threads about this suit that had anything different to say from other threads. It's annoying, and it's spamming. Plain and Simple. If I started a thread entitled: "LOL! JMS and Joey Q messed up!!" then, I would expect to be dealt with as a nuisance, especially seeing as how this thread is the exact same thread, but and it's at the top of the front page.

As for this not insulting people thing, it would be easier to be civil if other posters didn't post asanine comments that we hear every day, such as:

1) Quit complaining
2) You fear change
3) Well I liked it
4) You still buy it


These things are repeated ad nauseum and are never true. Quit complaining? It's a f***ing message board....on the internet! It's built to house the complaints and critiques of the consumer!! DEAL WITH IT!!! You fear change..? No, we can respect good change, but we HATE asanine changes that serve no purpose and make little or no progress in the story. This would include stupid costumes, stingers, Spidey as a murderer, etc. Well I liked it....? Good for you, but this isn't an argument. It isn't based on facts. It's an opinion. State some reasons why you liked it that contradict why I duslike it, or don't contribute. You still buy it...? No....alot of us don't, and that's our right.

Now, I respect you as a fellow Spidey fan, man, and if you want to keep reading the books, then that's your perogitive. Me, I've got better things I can do with my time. I could actually take a ball-peen hammer to my testacles, and I'd probably get more out of it than I get out of the current Spidey books. Maybe a Ball-peen hammer to the scrotum isn't your thing, so I'll respect your opinion and you can respect mine.

Still, if you say that I'm pounding myself in the goodie-bag because I fear change, then we're going to have to fight. :mad:

Ok. So, you're mad at some posters because they aren't veterans of message boards and are, most likely, excited to share their comments...so they start a thread. Now whether there is the same topic on the same page or not...some people don't really understand the "rules" of a message board.

It irks a lot of people when multiple topics are made. So, instead of being angry and mad at them. Tell them there is already a topic created and give them a link. You don't want to do that? Ignore it. Heh. Would it be that tough to just move on to another thread and forget about that one? Or does it really bother you that much? Because if it does maybe you need to take a break from the boards for a while.

And I can understand anger at "Quit complaining", "Fear of change". But "Well, I Like It". Why would that make you mad? They like it. As I said earlier. Not everyone is like Herr Logan or Dread. They don't need to write a gigantic article of why they enjoyed or didn't enjoy something. I think you're being a tad petty on that. I understand maybe you'd like a further explanation but, like the multiple topics, why can't you just ignore it sometimes? If the person doesn't want to further elaborate then they don't want to. But I understand where you come from on that. It's just seems a little petty to get worked up because someone says, "Well, I liked it". Heh.

As for "You still buy it". Heh. I've used that against some posters in the All Star Batman thread to irk them. Because if you really are that disgusted with something and are still buying it....then why are you getting so mad? I mean, you're only adding more fuel to the fire yourself. If you know JMS sucks and Quesada sucks...and you hate the new suit and hate Spidey on the New Avengers...then why would you still buy it? You'd only be supporting something that you're against.

I understand that some people like to have complete runs and some people feel they just can't miss an issue no matter how bad it is. And I can understand how that can make you angry. But the statement has a lot of valid points to it, in my opinion. If all a person does is talk about how much something sucks and then they go out and BUY IT anyway...I don't feel too much sympathy for the person.

You have to understand what it's like from the other side of the fence sometimes. While you may be tired of seeing those comments. I'm tired of seeing a handful of them myself. Like the every popular:

"Whoever likes what is going on in the Spider-Man books now isn't a real Spider-Man fan"

I hate that comment.

Or "You are a sheep for liking what's going on"

It's almost like some posters here, because they think that they know everything there is to know about Spider-Man, that they are above everybody else. And if you disagree with them or think differently than them...than you're not a real fan. That you're not "in the kliq". So, they use arrogance and insults to make posters feel inferior to them...and then another poster joins in....and another....and then it's suddenly a gang attack just because somebody doesn't share the same opinion.

It goes both ways. I miss having discussions in the Spidey forums. I'm getting really fed up with the constant "I'm better than you because I said Spider-Man sucks and you said it didn't! Admit I was right and you were wrong". When, really, neither are right or wrong.

Do I want everyone to agree and be on the same page? HA! That's impossible. That's like asking the Ku Klux Klan to stop hating black people and hoping they will.

But it would be nice if, you know, posters wouldn't make people feel inferior because they are different. THAT is getting really old. Just because you know a whole lot about Spider-Man doesn't mean you are ALWAYS right.

And it would be fantastic to ignore all of these comments and these posters who do these things...but that means I'd have to ignore over half the people in these forums and I'm not going to do that.

So, I guess I either have to put up with arrogant posters who have to ruin a nice experience for people because they're upset with the way Spider-Man is being written or maybe we can all get together and help make it a better community.

Will there be fights? Yeah, I'm sure there will be. But alienating posters and making them feel unwelcome because they think differently is rather disgusting. Hard to have a discussion with someone who tells you you're not a real Spider-Man fan because you think differently.

[Herr Logan]

Aw...shucks....:O

I can't take all the credit. This award actually belongs to thsoe imbeciles who speak before they think, and of course, nice folk like Spideyinatree, who, while they mean well, have absolutely no idea what I'm talkng about half the time, judging from the fact that he still thinks this is an "agree with me or go home" debate.

Hey, I've deigned to exchange words with those disfavorable cognitive pedestrians plenty a time in the past. Isn't that credit enough? :eek:

Speaking of which, the poster you mentioned is an incredible hypocrite, both because he is dead-set on paying for books that he at some point claimed to have been disallusioned with (although I could be mistaking him for someone else), and because he chides the likes of us for our alleged (and proven) condescending attitudes toward people who disagree with us when I've seen him dish out enough arrogance to put even me to shame several times. He has repeatedly lashed out at "whiners" and dissenters who expect more from comics and movies, and seemingly only because he's annoyed by complaints. That behavior (reacting to complaints with hostility automatically) is childish and should be punished. No, seriously, I'm not just mouthing off; it really pisses me off (the display of which encourages the behavior, of course... like he said, we're none of us innocent).

I have never understood this mentality that arguing, even heatedly, in general is a bad thing. Yeah, they'll say they aren't against arguments, but anytime people actually stick to their guns and pass over the whole "well, that's you opinion, and I have my own" bull*****, they show how shallow and complacent they are. I mean, what the hell is the point of a multi-media internet forum? To simply bleat out praise and expressions of excitement? To say "I have faith in "? To impart information? As for that last one, the parent site here is an information website already. While I realize more detail can be imparted through open forums, there's also infinite potential for misinformation.
How the hell are people going to have fun if no one argues? Would any of you read or watch a story that didn't have conflict in it? Also, we use fake names (most of us), we put on a fake face (or other picture, or animation, etc.) and we talk about characters in fantasy stories, and yet when someone adopts a more aggressive persona than people are used to or would indulge in real life, that's seen as some hideous evil. What the feck are people doing here? I'm not interested in just a mindless, happy, shiny, "positive attitude" circle jerk. Hell, I created a thread that at times has been like that, but I seek other enjoyment out here on the killing fields. There are intelligent arguments to be made, and those who stand to quell that sort of discussion are counterproductive, and thus worthless. At least when they act on those abominable urges.

These people are exactly what is wrong with... all that is wrong in the world, I guess. At least that which is perpetrated or allowed by humans. Complacency and bad decision-making is why more and more people hate the United States every day, because people didn't have the intelligence and/or the balls to identify a proven global threat and instead put them in the highest seat of authority there is.
This attitude that being "negative" and criticizing things is bad or useless... it's unforgivable. It is weakness of mind and spirit. It's un-fecking-worthy of even my attention, but I have my compulsions, so I run with it.

The reason this attitude is so destructive even when voiced on the topic of superheroes is that anyone who acts like that could (not will, but more than likely could) take the same attitude toward politics, general policies and other important, real-world issues. Complaints are annoying? Well how about we all just hold hands and offer praise and stand by while authority figures and other people who are important in the world screw everything up. When I say "important people," I'm not just talking about politicians and other leaders or even just police officers and soldiers. How about the people who build airplanes? How about business executives who control how their employees (and those people's families) are able to live? You want to get in an airplane built by people who were allowed to screw up because people don't like to hear "whining" and suggestions for improvement? You want to work at a company where people don't complain about unfair corporate policies not only because they're afraid, but because complaining is just looked down upon even by the people being screwed over?

Again, I realize that discussing art like movies and comics isn't on the same level of importance, but there are plenty of people who act the same with regard comics as they do about politics. Interestingly enough, I've seen trends where the behaviors were reversed in these boards. People who were dismayed at the U.S. government and spoke on acted (and still act) like conformist sheep when it came to comics, and people who support the government took a critical approach to movies and comics. This isn't the majority, I'm just saying that I've seen that as a strong trend at times. Anyway, I'm an overall critic, of everything, and that's the only fecking way anything ever gets done in the world!!

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."[I]--George Bernard Shaw

Take that to the bank and smoke it, conformists and complacent robots of the Hype!

:wolverine

[SpideyInATree]

Hey, I've deigned to exchange words with those disfavorable cognitive pedestrians plenty a time in the past. Isn't that credit enough? :eek:

Speaking of which, the poster you mentioned is an incredible hypocrite, both because he is dead-set on paying for books that he at some point claimed to have been disallusioned with (although I could be mistaking him for someone else), and because he chides the likes of us for our alleged (and proven) condescending attitudes toward people who disagree with us when I've seen him dish out enough arrogance to put even me to shame several times. He has repeatedly lashed out at "whiners" and dissenters who expect more from comics and movies, and seemingly only because he's annoyed by complaints. That behavior (reacting to complaints with hostility automatically) is childish and should be punished. No, seriously, I'm not just mouthing off; it really pisses me off (the display of which encourages the behavior, of course... like he said, we're none of us innocent).

I have never understood this mentality that arguing, even heatedly, in general is a bad thing. Yeah, they'll say they aren't against arguments, but anytime people actually stick to their guns and pass over the whole "well, that's you opinion, and I have my own" bull*****, they show how shallow and complacent they are. I mean, what the hell is the point of a multi-media internet forum? To simply bleat out praise and expressions of excitement? To say "I have faith in "? To impart information? As for that last one, the parent site here is an information website already. While I realize more detail can be imparted through open forums, there's also infinite potential for misinformation.
How the hell are people going to have fun if no one argues? Would any of you read or watch a story that didn't have conflict in it? Also, we use fake names (most of us), we put on a fake face (or other picture, or animation, etc.) and we talk about characters in fantasy stories, and yet when someone adopts a more aggressive persona than people are used to or would indulge in real life, that's seen as some hideous evil. What the feck are people doing here? I'm not interested in just a mindless, happy, shiny, "positive attitude" circle jerk. Hell, I created a thread that at times has been like that, but I seek other enjoyment out here on the killing fields. There are intelligent arguments to be made, and those who stand to quell that sort of discussion are counterproductive, and thus worthless. At least when they act on those abominable urges.

These people are exactly what is wrong with... all that is wrong in the world, I guess. At least that which is perpetrated or allowed by humans. Complacency and bad decision-making is why more and more people hate the United States every day, because people didn't have the intelligence and/or the balls to identify a proven global threat and instead put them in the highest seat of authority there is.
This attitude that being "negative" and criticizing things is bad or useless... it's unforgivable. It is weakness of mind and spirit. It's un-fecking-worthy of even my attention, but I have my compulsions, so I run with it.

The reason this attitude is so destructive even when voiced on the topic of superheroes is that anyone who acts like that could (not will, but more than likely could) take the same attitude toward politics, general policies and other important, real-world issues. Complaints are annoying? Well how about we all just hold hands and offer praise and stand by while authority figures and other people who are important in the world screw everything up. When I say "important people," I'm not just talking about politicians and other leaders or even just police officers and soldiers. How about the people who build airplanes? How about business executives who control how their employees (and those people's families) are able to live? You want to get in an airplane built by people who were allowed to screw up because people don't like to hear "whining" and suggestions for improvement? You want to work at a company where people don't complain about unfair corporate policies not only because they're afraid, but because complaining is just looked down upon even by the people being screwed over?

Again, I realize that discussing art like movies and comics isn't on the same level of importance, but there are plenty of people who act the same with regard comics as they do about politics. Interestingly enough, I've seen trends where the behaviors were reversed in these boards. People who were dismayed at the U.S. government and spoke on acted (and still act) like conformist sheep when it came to comics, and people who support the government took a critical approach to movies and comics. This isn't the majority, I'm just saying that I've seen that as a strong trend at times. Anyway, I'm an overall critic, of everything, and that's the only fecking way anything ever gets done in the world!!

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."[I]--George Bernard Shaw

Take that to the bank and smoke it, conformists and complacent robots of the Hype!

:wolverine


I've admitted my shortcomings to you in the past.

I'm tired of not being able to discuss things on this board. I'm tired of the elitist attitudes toward posters who think differently. I'm merely offering a sort of truce where we can forget all the BS and just talk about Spider-Man.

That's why I'm here, to discuss my comics. And it becomes a place I don't want to be when I'm alienated because I think differently. If you guys are upset with what's going on, that's fine and dandy. But do you really have to make people feel so inferior? Are you the all knowing, all saying Spider-Man knowledge God?

None of us are.

I want to discuss Spider-Man. Do you?

[Herr Logan]

I'd also like to say that there is a difference between "opinions" and "attitudes." An opinion is something that has to be stated in words to have any validity, and is a statement and/or an argument (which is the same in certain venues).
An attitude is a preference, is something that does not have to be stated in words and is entirely subjective.

You (proverbial "you") don't ask a second doctor for a "second opinion" and expect to hear whether this doctor likes your prognosis or not. You ask him that to know what he thinks the facts are. The first doctor, or a third one, can argue the second as to that opinion. Getting it, now, people?

You can argue against arguments, and thus you can argue against opinions. You cannot argue with preferences as a valid behavior (no matter how tempting it is). I actually disagree with Shinlyle when he said, "you should be able to tell us why you enjoyed tham and what you thought was so great about them." At least as a naked statement. If you qualify that with, "if you are going to challenge someone else who had a different preference," then it's airtight. You cannot pit a preference against another preference, unless it's a might-makes-right scenario with policy or short term changes at stake (i.e. JMS can keep screwing up from here on out, because Joey Q likes his stuff, hypothetically... I know it's about sales, not Joey Q's preference... in this case). You can, however, make arguments that stem from your preferences, and therefore everyone who says "respect people's opinions" when they they're talking about statements (i.e. "The costume was perfect, don't change it," "They should keep JMS as writer for 'Amazing Spider-Man'"). Damn Goddamn right I can disrespect those kinds of statements. You didn't say you liked those things in that instance, you said "was" and "should," which are statements of fact (not actual fact, but in the form of factual statements), and thus I can justly rip into those "opinions" if I feel the urge and have an argument to make. Opinions aren't sacred. This isn't kindergarden, people. Act like grown-ups, not in terms of how friendly are "nice" you are, but in terms of putting some real thought into these issues.

Class dismissed. For now...

:wolverine

[Cullen]

Call it what you will. Argueing, debating, ******ing, whatever. It is a part of Conversation and Conversation is the only way to cause change. If you keep silent, keep your opinions to yourself, then nothing will change.

By change, though, I don't mean just getting what you want. Sometimes you just can't make the idiot see reason, or talk that friend out of seeing things the "wrong" way. However, by simple trying, you learn. You see which approaches work, which don't. You modify your approach and find ways of dealing when everyone and everything goes against you. You discover what it's like to be correct and what it's like to be wrong.

YOU change. And that's far more important than what outfit Spidey wears, or who he's married, or whether or not he grows older.

But not more important than getting "Sins Past" and "The Other" retconned into being just a bad dream.

We need standards, people. Standards.

[Herr Logan]

I've admitted my shortcomings to you in the past.

I'm tired of not being able to discuss things on this board. I'm tired of the elitist attitudes toward posters who think differently. I'm merely offering a sort of truce where we can forget all the BS and just talk about Spider-Man.
Yes, you've admitted your shortcomings, and I have as well-- if not to you (I can't remember too well) then to others, and publically so. You're still making the same mistakes, and I am too, to a degree. I'd like to retract what I said about you being a hypocrite (for the moment), because I believe that even if a person is similarly flawed, pointing out misconduct in others is still valuable if people listen to the message despite the messenger. I called you a hypocrite because I don't agree that the behavior is necessarily bad in its own right, but that the deciding substance of your own condescending arguments was invalid, which is the reason why we're at odds in the first place.

We are talking about Spider-Man, among other issues relating to Spider-Man and to the very nature of talking about Spider-Man (or whatever else in a given discussion). It gets heated when people make inferior arguments and other people call them on it. Also when people object to the hostility inherent in some of those responses, and so it goes.
The heatedness can get out of hand, but until it hits a point of pure hostility for its own sake, it provokes thought, and that's why I defend that behavior. See that quote above in the post you quoted.


That's why I'm here, to discuss my comics. And it becomes a place I don't want to be when I'm alienated because I think differently. If you guys are upset with what's going on, that's fine and dandy. But do you really have to make people feel so inferior? Are you the all knowing, all saying Spider-Man knowledge God?
But, it's fun to be arrogant and say things that may induce others to feel inferior if they can't learn and improve as a result. :(

No, seriously, that's part of the appeal of a discussion where we can consider our words before we express them to others. The whole fantasy thing, again. It's not a matter of anonymity being an excuse for bad behavior, it's an opportunity for creativity. And yes, arguing heatedly is fun, and if others would either stop saying stupid things that earn my ire or play along in their own arrogant way (and they damn well do have plenty of arrogance of their own, of that you can be sure), then we're on equal footing. I've put up with too much hostility from people who are in fact inferior to me to have too much regret over my own arrogance. Yes, I've gone overboard before, but for the most part, I play pretty damn fair. I don't talk about people's mothers, I don't make up scenarios where the other poster is still "living in his parents' basement," I don't make comments as to whether they need a girlfriend, etc. I'm above that sort of thing, and I mean that. I have the same urge to fight dirty as everyone who does fight dirty, but I keep it in check because I have standards of myself as well as others, despite my failures in living up to those standards (in other areas, not the fighting dirty thing). The same goes in real life in terms of verbal combat. I don't lower myself beyond a certain depth. What people really resent is that there's always at least some truth to what I'm saying and I'm damn good at feigning supreme arrogance (my true arrogance isn't "supreme," it's merely magnificent), and that combination induces negative feelings in others. I don't "make" anyone feel anything, unless I make physical contact. No, people don't control their emotions very well, but their psychological reactions are due to their hardwiring, not outside stimuli, and they can control their outward reactions.

No, I'm not the Spider-Man knowledge God, but I can relay much of his wisdom to the benighted masses who knoweth not the mythical glory that is classic Spider-Man.


None of us are.

I want to discuss Spider-Man. Do you?
I've discussed Spider-Man plenty, and right now I'm commenting on the nature of arguing, since you and others brought it up.


Gotta run now (and I'm on such a roll, too...), so I'll try to address anything I left out that needs to be said later). Try not to take this stuff too personally, okay? You know that part of you enjoys this, just like I do.



:wolverine

[shinlyle]

Ok. So, you're mad at some posters because they aren't veterans of message boards and are, most likely, excited to share their comments...so they start a thread. Now whether there is the same topic on the same page or not...some people don't really understand the "rules" of a message board.

It irks a lot of people when multiple topics are made. So, instead of being angry and mad at them. Tell them there is already a topic created and give them a link. You don't want to do that? Ignore it. Heh. Would it be that tough to just move on to another thread and forget about that one? Or does it really bother you that much? Because if it does maybe you need to take a break from the boards for a while.

And I can understand anger at "Quit complaining", "Fear of change". But "Well, I Like It". Why would that make you mad? They like it. As I said earlier. Not everyone is like Herr Logan or Dread. They don't need to write a gigantic article of why they enjoyed or didn't enjoy something. I think you're being a tad petty on that. I understand maybe you'd like a further explanation but, like the multiple topics, why can't you just ignore it sometimes? If the person doesn't want to further elaborate then they don't want to. But I understand where you come from on that. It's just seems a little petty to get worked up because someone says, "Well, I liked it". Heh.

As for "You still buy it". Heh. I've used that against some posters in the All Star Batman thread to irk them. Because if you really are that disgusted with something and are still buying it....then why are you getting so mad? I mean, you're only adding more fuel to the fire yourself. If you know JMS sucks and Quesada sucks...and you hate the new suit and hate Spidey on the New Avengers...then why would you still buy it? You'd only be supporting something that you're against.

I understand that some people like to have complete runs and some people feel they just can't miss an issue no matter how bad it is. And I can understand how that can make you angry. But the statement has a lot of valid points to it, in my opinion. If all a person does is talk about how much something sucks and then they go out and BUY IT anyway...I don't feel too much sympathy for the person.

You have to understand what it's like from the other side of the fence sometimes. While you may be tired of seeing those comments. I'm tired of seeing a handful of them myself. Like the every popular:

"Whoever likes what is going on in the Spider-Man books now isn't a real Spider-Man fan"

I hate that comment.

Or "You are a sheep for liking what's going on"

It's almost like some posters here, because they think that they know everything there is to know about Spider-Man, that they are above everybody else. And if you disagree with them or think differently than them...than you're not a real fan. That you're not "in the kliq". So, they use arrogance and insults to make posters feel inferior to them...and then another poster joins in....and another....and then it's suddenly a gang attack just because somebody doesn't share the same opinion.

It goes both ways. I miss having discussions in the Spidey forums. I'm getting really fed up with the constant "I'm better than you because I said Spider-Man sucks and you said it didn't! Admit I was right and you were wrong". When, really, neither are right or wrong.

Do I want everyone to agree and be on the same page? HA! That's impossible. That's like asking the Ku Klux Klan to stop hating black people and hoping they will.

But it would be nice if, you know, posters wouldn't make people feel inferior because they are different. THAT is getting really old. Just because you know a whole lot about Spider-Man doesn't mean you are ALWAYS right.

And it would be fantastic to ignore all of these comments and these posters who do these things...but that means I'd have to ignore over half the people in these forums and I'm not going to do that.

So, I guess I either have to put up with arrogant posters who have to ruin a nice experience for people because they're upset with the way Spider-Man is being written or maybe we can all get together and help make it a better community.

Will there be fights? Yeah, I'm sure there will be. But alienating posters and making them feel unwelcome because they think differently is rather disgusting. Hard to have a discussion with someone who tells you you're not a real Spider-Man fan because you think differently.

Wow...that post is FAR too long. ;)

The newbies should be sensible enough to scroll through the message boards and learn the lay of the land, so to speak. I do it before I start posting on ANY message board. Following the rules is just a common courtesy. As for the ignoring and posting links thing....that's what I usually do. Sometimes, the thread keeps going anyway, and people far less respectful than myself eat the poor newbie alive. It's nice when we can prevent that.

As for the "Well, I like it", I don't mind people saying this, but to blast somone for hating on something, and then this is the entirety of your argument...? Lame.

"You still buy it"...yeah, I use that against anyone who buys AS:B&R as well. Then again, I usually leave those folk alone. Reading that book is punishment enough.The fact that they are paying to read that book is just plain sad.

Also, discussion in the Spidey forums....are you mad?!

Seriously, though, I think that, once this Iron Spidey stuff blows over (for better or worse), and once the "Other" is retconned, maybe things can go back to some semblence of normality. Even still, I'm sure something will happen between now and then to piss people off, and we'll start all over again.

As for the "sheep" thing, yeah, it can get overused, but there are definitely some folk on here to which that rule applies. I mentioned them in an earlier post.

[Cullen]

I'd also like to say that there is a difference between "opinions" and "attitudes." An opinion is something that has to be stated in words to have any validity, and is a statement and/or an argument (which is the same in certain venues).
An attitude is a preference, is something that does not have to be stated in words and is entirely subjective.

You (proverbial "you") don't ask a second doctor for a "second opinion" and expect to hear whether this doctor likes your prognosis or not. You ask him that to know what he thinks the facts are. The first doctor, or a third one, can argue the second as to that opinion. Getting it, now, people?

You can argue against arguments, and thus you can argue against opinions. You cannot argue with preferences as a valid behavior (no matter how tempting it is). I actually disagree with Shinlyle when he said, "you should be able to tell us why you enjoyed tham and what you thought was so great about them." At least as a naked statement. If you qualify that with, "if you are going to challenge someone else who had a different preference," then it's airtight. You cannot pit a preference against another preference, unless it's a might-makes-right scenario with policy or short term changes at stake (i.e. JMS can keep screwing up from here on out, because Joey Q likes his stuff, hypothetically... I know it's about sales, not Joey Q's preference... in this case). You can, however, make arguments that stem from your preferences, and therefore everyone who says "respect people's opinions" when they they're talking about statements (i.e. "The costume was perfect, don't change it," "They should keep JMS as writer for 'Amazing Spider-Man'"). Damn Goddamn right I can disrespect those kinds of statements. You didn't say you liked those things in that instance, you said "was" and "should," which are statements of fact (not actual fact, but in the form of factual statements), and thus I can justly rip into those "opinions" if I feel the urge and have an argument to make. Opinions aren't sacred. This isn't kindergarden, people. Act like grown-ups, not in terms of how friendly are "nice" you are, but in terms of putting some real thought into these issues.

Class dismissed. For now...

:wolverineI hate saying ditto and make myself look like a mindless lackey, but I feel Herr Logan is right (even if he's a little repetitive in his use of damn.) We like what we like, that can't be argued. But just because we like it doesn't mean its good, any more than disliking something means it's bad.

There are movies out there that are absolutely terrible that I like and enjoy, such as the 1998 version of "Godzilla". I can not defend this. It's just the way it is.

I also like "Casablanca", a much older movie. This I believe is a good film, and, push comes to shove, I think I could defend it.

[shinlyle]

Call it what you will. Argueing, debating, ******ing, whatever. It is a part of Conversation and Conversation is the only way to cause change. If you keep silent, keep your opinions to yourself, then nothing will change.

By change, though, I don't mean just getting what you want. Sometimes you just can't make the idiot see reason, or talk that friend out of seeing things the "wrong" way. However, by simple trying, you learn. You see which approaches work, which don't. You modify your approach and find ways of dealing when everyone and everything goes against you. You discover what it's like to be correct and what it's like to be wrong.

YOU change. And that's far more important than what outfit Spidey wears, or who he's married, or whether or not he grows older.

But not more important than getting "Sins Past" and "The Other" retconned into being just a bad dream.

We need standards, people. Standards.

Damn....that was beautiful, man....
*begins slow clap*:up:

[dan1]

I'd also like to say that there is a difference between "opinions" and "attitudes." An opinion is something that has to be stated in words to have any validity, and is a statement and/or an argument (which is the same in certain venues).
An attitude is a preference, is something that does not have to be stated in words and is entirely subjective.

You (proverbial "you") don't ask a second doctor for a "second opinion" and expect to hear whether this doctor likes your prognosis or not. You ask him that to know what he thinks the facts are. The first doctor, or a third one, can argue the second as to that opinion. Getting it, now, people?

You can argue against arguments, and thus you can argue against opinions. You cannot argue with preferences as a valid behavior (no matter how tempting it is). I actually disagree with Shinlyle when he said, "you should be able to tell us why you enjoyed tham and what you thought was so great about them." At least as a naked statement. If you qualify that with, "if you are going to challenge someone else who had a different preference," then it's airtight. You cannot pit a preference against another preference, unless it's a might-makes-right scenario with policy or short term changes at stake (i.e. JMS can keep screwing up from here on out, because Joey Q likes his stuff, hypothetically... I know it's about sales, not Joey Q's preference... in this case). You can, however, make arguments that stem from your preferences, and therefore everyone who says "respect people's opinions" when they they're talking about statements (i.e. "The costume was perfect, don't change it," "They should keep JMS as writer for 'Amazing Spider-Man'"). Damn Goddamn right I can disrespect those kinds of statements. You didn't say you liked those things in that instance, you said "was" and "should," which are statements of fact (not actual fact, but in the form of factual statements), and thus I can justly rip into those "opinions" if I feel the urge and have an argument to make. Opinions aren't sacred. This isn't kindergarden, people. Act like grown-ups, not in terms of how friendly are "nice" you are, but in terms of putting some real thought into these issues.

Class dismissed. For now...

:wolverine


Agree with Cullen and Shin and Herr. You have to back up your statements on these forums. We've put effort into making this a place for intelligent discourse and if someone opposes someones' views, but only gives a "well don't read it then" or "well it's just good" or "JMS is Incredible," and that's the extent of their opinion, just the same like it or get out pseudo-"positive" or empty quasi-"positive" statement, then they're not going to be let off the hook.

Losing an arguement is fine by me, but I'm not going to let someone who opposes intelligent discourse "win" the arguement just because they physically posted most recently.

[Norman Osborn]

Agree with Cullen and Shin and Herr. You have to back up your statements on these forums. We've put effort into making this a place for intelligent discourse and if someone opposes someones' views, but only gives a "well don't read it then" or "well it's just good" or "JMS is Incredible," and that's the extent of their opinion, just the same like it or get out pseudo-"positive" or empty quasi-"positive" statement, then they're not going to be let off the hook.

Losing an arguement is fine by me, but I'm not going to let someone who opposes intelligent discourse "win" the arguement just because they physically posted most recently.

Well I guess here's where I take a quantum leap from the intellectual masses......I don't have to back up anything. If I discredit/disagree with someone else's opinion then yes I should respond with at least some semblance of a substantiated position that stands in opposition of the statement I've spurned..(and "just cuz" doesn't cut it)...but if someone's waiting for a long drawn out reason why I like the New Avengers....well you have two choices

1/ Verbally castrate me......trust me ..I can take it :)
2/ Actually wait till I call to question someone's negative opinion of the book..(for the record I've done that once...by PM)

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Wow...I go away for a while and all of the sudden there's SSH Flame War '06. :( Why didn't anybody warn me?

Shin, I would point out that you are the man.

Logan, you are also pretty man-like.

EDIT: Cullen is also closely resembles a "man."

Man, there are a lot of awesome "men" on the boards. I love you guys. Maybe I just missed you all. Who knows? Ignore my ramblings.

It's good to see Quesada and JMS *supposedly* admit their shortcomings in regards to the Spidey books, but I'll reserve judgement until the change actually happens.

[Doc Destruction]

You know, the entire point of this post was to illustrate to those of you who LIKED and DEFENDED the trash that has been happening in the Spidey books these days that JMS and Quesada KNOW IT SUCKS. The fact that they think MJ is the problem only takes their mental retardation to a whole new level.

You can like what you like, but when the creator admits that they made a mistake when some of us have been saying that for some time now, you may want to think about that.

Well, and get some back issues to REALLY discover what makes Spider-Man the best freaking superhero of all time.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

You can like what you like, but when the creator admits that they made a mistake when some of us have been saying that for some time now, you may want to think about that.


100% agreement. :up:

The Other started out alright, but turned into a trainwreck. :(

[Herr Logan]

Wow...I go away for a while and all of the sudden there's SSH Flame War '06. :( Why didn't anybody warn me?

Shin, I would point out that you are the man.

Logan, you are also pretty man-like.

There's no harsher criticism than faint praise. :(


EDIT: Cullen is also closely resembles a "man."

Yep. Just about.


Man, there are a lot of awesome "men" on the boards. I love you guys. Maybe I just missed you all. Who knows? Ignore my ramblings.

It's good to see Quesada and JMS *supposedly* admit their shortcomings in regards to the Spidey books, but I'll reserve judgement until the change actually happens.

I'd love you, too, but my man-pride is hurt by the phrase "man-like." Even though I presume there's a likelihood that by "man" you mean something more than simply a male human, I'd prefer another word. And I'll take a page from Cullen's book and do some hard-core sulking until I get a new word.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Call it what you will. Argueing, debating, ******ing, whatever. It is a part of Conversation and Conversation is the only way to cause change. If you keep silent, keep your opinions to yourself, then nothing will change.

By change, though, I don't mean just getting what you want. Sometimes you just can't make the idiot see reason, or talk that friend out of seeing things the "wrong" way. However, by simple trying, you learn. You see which approaches work, which don't. You modify your approach and find ways of dealing when everyone and everything goes against you. You discover what it's like to be correct and what it's like to be wrong.

YOU change. And that's far more important than what outfit Spidey wears, or who he's married, or whether or not he grows older.

But not more important than getting "Sins Past" and "The Other" retconned into being just a bad dream.

We need standards, people. Standards.
Tell it like it is!! :up:

I hate saying ditto and make myself look like a mindless lackey,
I don't even need to say anything here, do I?

but I feel Herr Logan is right
Naturally.

(even if he's a little repetitive in his use of damn.)
Damn it, Cullen, shut your word-hole.

We like what we like, that can't be argued. But just because we like it doesn't mean its good, any more than disliking something means it's bad.

There are movies out there that are absolutely terrible that I like and enjoy, such as the 1998 version of "Godzilla". I can not defend this. It's just the way it is.

I also like "Casablanca", a much older movie. This I believe is a good film, and, push comes to shove, I think I could defend it.
Those are very good points. While I still believe "good" and "bad" are subjective to an extent in most situations (I'm not a moral relativist, don't worry), some value judgements are accepted by concensus, and individuals' preferences do not change the value judgement. You can like something that's crappily written/drawn/directed/acted/etc. and not have to defend it, but don't defend it if there's nothing defensible.

:wolverine

[Cullen]

EDIT: Cullen is also closely resembles a "man."Only closely resembles. :( Wonder what I'm missing to be a man. :eek: :):D

I know, I know. Being careful in case I wasn't a "he". It's all good. Been there myself.

of course, you don't want to look too close at my signature...

It's good to see Quesada and JMS *supposedly* admit their shortcomings in regards to the Spidey books, but I'll reserve judgement until the change actually happens.Yeah. Judging by what's being said, that's the way I'm leaning, too.

[Cullen]

"Just about"? :confused:Tell it like it is!! :up:


I don't even need to say anything here, do I?


Naturally.No need for comment here.
Damn it, Cullen, shut your word-hole.Now we both know how likely that is, now don't we? :)
Those are very good points. While I still believe "good" and "bad" are subjective to an extent in most situations (I'm not a moral relativist, don't worry), some value judgements are accepted by concensus, and individuals' preferences do not change the value judgement. You can like something that's crappily written/drawn/directed/acted/etc. and not have to defend it, but don't defend it if there's nothing defensible.

:wolverineIt depends on how you're defending it, but in the main you are correct.

...

"Just about?"

[Herr Logan]

"Just about"? :confused:No need for comment here.
Now we both know how likely that is, now don't we? :)
It depends on how you're defending it, but in the main you are correct.

...

"Just about?"

"Just about," as in "close enough." :up:



Looks like the brawlin' in this here thread died out. Damn shame, but that's the price of winning... the other side has to take their ball and go home. :(

:wolverine

[Cullen]

"Just about," as in "close enough." :up:



Looks like the brawlin' in this here thread died out. Damn shame, but that's the price of winning... the other side has to take their ball and go home. :(

:wolverine"Close enough?" What? I missed manhood some how? :eek:

What rites have I not performed? :confused: What steps have I not taken? :confused: What do you people want from me?!?!?!? :(

Sheesh.

[LarryLegend]

"Close enough?" What? I missed manhood some how? :eek:

What rites have I not performed? :confused: What steps have I not taken? :confused: What do you people want from me?!?!?!? :(

Sheesh.

You missed the ritual getting plastered and toliet papering, Joey Q's House.;)

[ScottishFogg]

so . . . what issue of Wizard was this in? i've scoured my last couple of issues and i can't find it anywhere? is my BS detector going off?

[TheVileOne]

All it sounds like to me while they admit this stuff was crap, they are going to make even more crappy decisions.

LIKE going back to the 60's

LIKE breaking up the marriage.

Why would they want to just take away all of Peter's development and growth over the decades? Don't we want Peter to grow and change and not be the same as he was all those years ago?

[Cullen]

You missed the ritual getting plastered and toliet papering, Joey Q's House.;)Nah, nah, did that.

Unless...

Unless that wasn't Joey Q's place...

[LarryLegend]

Nah, nah, did that.

Unless...

Unless that wasn't Joey Q's place...

Wait a minute, so you're the punk who tped my house~:mad:

[shinlyle]

Wow...I go away for a while and all of the sudden there's SSH Flame War '06. :( Why didn't anybody warn me?

Shin, I would point out that you are the man.

:O

Logan, you are also pretty man-like.

EDIT: Cullen is also closely resembles a "man."

Man, there are a lot of awesome "men" on the boards. I love you guys. Maybe I just missed you all. Who knows? Ignore my ramblings.

It's good to see Quesada and JMS *supposedly* admit their shortcomings in regards to the Spidey books, but I'll reserve judgement until the change actually happens.

Hey...these guys are just as much man as I...! Hell, Herr Logan may even be moreso! Hell, he comes off a lot more "Blunt" than I do...and Cullen, well Cullen has the right mixture of humor and anger....hard nott o consider him a man...

Still....we all know who our friends are, here!

Sorry....I'm just overcome with emotion right now....*sniffle*...think I'll go kill a cute animal...

[Cullen]

Wait a minute, so you're the punk who tped my house~:mad::eek: Um... Heh heh heh...

RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY RUN FASTER!

[Herr Logan]

:O



Hey...these guys are just as much man as I...! Hell, Herr Logan may even be moreso! Hell, he comes off a lot more "Blunt" than I do...and Cullen, well Cullen has the right mixture of humor and anger....hard nott o consider him a man...

Still....we all know who our friends are, here!

Sorry....I'm just overcome with emotion right now....*sniffle*...think I'll go kill a cute animal...

"Blunt?" Where do you hear such lies?! Why, I'm the master of Tact!
Its unequivocal, unchallenged, draconian, iron-fisted Master, do you hear??

*achem*

You don't need to kill a cute animal to be a man. It just helps. :up:

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

"Close enough?" What? I missed manhood some how? :eek:

What rites have I not performed? :confused: What steps have I not taken? :confused: What do you people want from me?!?!?!? :(

Sheesh.

I'm kidding, Cullen. You're a man, all right. But there are degrees, you see.

You've measured up to all those degrees-- cognizance, competence, relevance, middle age, rapid decline, antiquity-- and moved past each of them!

:wolverine

[Cullen]

I'm kidding, Cullen. You're a man, all right. But there are degrees, you see.

You've measured up to all those degrees-- cognizance, competence, relevance, middle age, rapid decline, antiquity-- and moved past each of them!

:wolverineI excel at rapid recline.

[shinlyle]

"Blunt?" Where do you hear such lies?! Why, I'm the master of Tact!
Its unequivocal, unchallenged, draconian, iron-fisted Master, do you hear??

*achem*

You don't need to kill a cute animal to be a man. It just helps. :up:

:wolverine

Heh heh....that's just because they won't let us type the f-word, though! ;)

[LarryLegend]

To get back on topic, the problem is Joey Q and JMS seem to sort of vaguely grasp the idea that they've screwed up. Problem is they don't get the why and how. Therefore any attempt to fix things will likely just **** things up even more. I mean if you're car breaks down after being worked on at a local garage would you take it back to the same people?

[LarryLegend]

:eek: Um... Heh heh heh...

RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY RUN FASTER!

Dayum punks, I'll get you.;)

[Herr Logan]

Heh heh....that's just because they won't let us type the f-word, though! ;)

F-word? You mean "fanboy?"

If I had my way, not only would that word be bleeped out by the censors, but anyone who used it as a pejorative against people who dissent against inaccurate portrayals of classic supeheroes in movies and other media would be skinned and rolled in salt.

Now don't any of you question my reasonableness ever again!

:wolverine

[Cullen]

F-word? You mean "fanboy?"

If I had my way, not only would that word be bleeped out by the censors, but anyone who used it as a pejorative against people who dissent against inaccurate portrayals of classic supeheroes in movies and other media would be skinned and rolled in salt.

Now don't any of you question my reasonableness ever again!

:wolverineAll it took was a few months on this board to make me hate the "f" term. God, the contempt behind it is... Urf.

On JMS and JQ, yeah, they're seeming pretty far gone Which is what happens when you think you can walk on water.

Well, when all you lesser folk think that... :p:up:

[shinlyle]

F-word? You mean "fanboy?"

If I had my way, not only would that word be bleeped out by the censors, but anyone who used it as a pejorative against people who dissent against inaccurate portrayals of classic supeheroes in movies and other media would be skinned and rolled in salt.

Now don't any of you question my reasonableness ever again!

:wolverine


actually....i meant the f-word that rhymes with "truck"....

As for "fanboy", that term gets under my freakin' skin!! Like anyone on these f***in' boards can call someone else a "fanboy"!!! You're on a SUPERHERO mesage board talking about SUPEHERO stuff...or at least COMIC BOOK stuff. We're all geeks, here! One person calling another person on here a "fanboy" is alot like hating on people who drive cars. You drive a car, too, so shut the hell up!!!! :mad:

I swear...it gets so bad on these boards....look at ANY debate about the comics. Some ignorant jackass who saw Spider-Man in a new costume who bought it so that they could hopefully make some money on ebay posts about how the new costume rules....and they don't even read comics. We get every jackass who doesn't even know what the hell they're talking about rambling in here about what they think is right for a character that they only saw in a f***in' movie!!!

The nest person to use the word "fanboy" in an insulting manner on these boards should just be strung the hell up by his tendons.

[Gregatron]

actually....i meant the f-word that rhymes with "truck"....

As for "fanboy", that term gets under my freakin' skin!! Like anyone on these f***in' boards can call someone else a "fanboy"!!! You're on a SUPERHERO mesage board talking about SUPEHERO stuff...or at least COMIC BOOK stuff. We're all geeks, here! One person calling another person on here a "fanboy" is alot like hating on people who drive cars. You drive a car, too, so shut the hell up!!!! :mad:

I swear...it gets so bad on these boards....look at ANY debate about the comics. Some ignorant jackass who saw Spider-Man in a new costume who bought it so that they could hopefully make some money on ebay posts about how the new costume rules....and they don't even read comics. We get every jackass who doesn't even know what the hell they're talking about rambling in here about what they think is right for a character that they only saw in a f***in' movie!!!

The nest person to use the word "fanboy" in an insulting manner on these boards should just be strung the hell up by his tendons.


Enthusiasts of comic books used to be called "readers". And they weren't organized, didn't bicker amongst themselves, and didn't work to spoil or attack stories months in advance because they just went to the newsstand every month, picked up a book, and read it.

Today, the obsessive, selfish, spiteful, ignorant, bickering trolls that have nothing in their lives except comics and now constitute the majority of the fanbase are "fanboys".

"Fan" as in "fanatic", remember?

[Cullen]

Enthusiasts of comic books used to be called "readers". And they weren't organized, didn't bicker amongst themselves, and didn't work to spoil or attack stories months in advance because they just went to the newsstand every month, picked up a book, and read it.

Today, the obsessive, selfish, spiteful, ignorant, bickering trolls that have nothing in their lives except comics and now constitute the majority of the fanbase are "fanboys".

"Fan" as in "fanatic", remember?Didn't bicker amongst themselves? Really? That's not how I remember it. Comic fandom are like sports, politics, and religion. A whole swarm of camps who think their right in every way shape and/or form, but who are right if and only if THEY AGREE WITH ME!!! CAUSE I'M DAMN PERFECT BY NATURE, SEE, AND DON'T YOU EVER FORGET IT!!! :D

All the Internet's done is intensify things and improved rumor gathering. Spoilers and trolls were always here; they've just gotten more powerful.

[Herr Logan]

actually....i meant the f-word that rhymes with "truck"....

As for "fanboy", that term gets under my freakin' skin!! Like anyone on these f***in' boards can call someone else a "fanboy"!!! You're on a SUPERHERO mesage board talking about SUPEHERO stuff...or at least COMIC BOOK stuff. We're all geeks, here! One person calling another person on here a "fanboy" is alot like hating on people who drive cars. You drive a car, too, so shut the hell up!!!! :mad:

I swear...it gets so bad on these boards....look at ANY debate about the comics. Some ignorant jackass who saw Spider-Man in a new costume who bought it so that they could hopefully make some money on ebay posts about how the new costume rules....and they don't even read comics. We get every jackass who doesn't even know what the hell they're talking about rambling in here about what they think is right for a character that they only saw in a f***in' movie!!!

The nest person to use the word "fanboy" in an insulting manner on these boards should just be strung the hell up by his tendons.

Ex-feckin'-actly! Those are most of my arguments against that term right there. :up:

The sheer ignorance and hypocrisy it takes to call another poster that... it's unforgivable. I say we skin them, string them up by their tendons, then toss salt and squirt citric juices at them. Justice must be meted out, and the hypocritical heathens must be cleansed of their folly with pain!

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

...THEY AGREE WITH ME!!! CAUSE I'M DAMN PERFECT BY NATURE, SEE, AND DON'T YOU EVER FORGET IT!!! :D


Cullen, are you mocking me?

You dare?!


:wolverine

[Dyeathrose]

The nest person to use the word "fanboy" in an insulting manner on these boards should just be strung the hell up by his tendons.

:o Well, I prefer the word fangirl, myself. ;):)

[Grim Goblin]

Enthusiasts of comic books used to be called "readers". And they weren't organized, didn't bicker amongst themselves, and didn't work to spoil or attack stories months in advance because they just went to the newsstand every month, picked up a book, and read it.

Today, the obsessive, selfish, spiteful, ignorant, bickering trolls that have nothing in their lives except comics and now constitute the majority of the fanbase are "fanboys".

"Fan" as in "fanatic", remember?

you think that this is a new and comics-specific phenomenon?
You...have...no...idea.

Everyone is a fan of something and is just as passionate and vocal about it than us comic books fanboys. How manny times did I hear someone say:

-Man, team X sucks this season.
-yeah but that's only because of coach Y/player Z.
-If they'd have coach A/player B on the team, now that would rock!
-Are you crazy? that guy sucks so much it's not even funny!

or movies:

-I went to see movie X last night.
-That movie was the worst ever!
-Really? I loved how Actor Y played his character. he really nailed it!
-yeah, the performance was ok, but what were they thinking when they hired director Z to make this film? he's a total hack!

I could go on, but basicaly the same principle applies for any medium. if you're passionate about something, you're going to talk about it. When you do, you'll find people who agree and disagree with your POV. That's the nature of the crowd. They cheer when they like something and they boo when they don't.

The only difference is that with the internet, the conversations are no longer restrained to close friends, neighbors and co-workers. Comics fanboys aren't different from any other kind of fan.

[Grim Goblin]

with that said, Gregatron I got a question for you...

Just who the **** do you think you are, coming here and lecturing us on how to be fans :mad:.

You come here and call fanboys trolls, and yet you go from thread to thread
to repeat essentialy the same thing: Fanboys are losers.

Guess what? We all have lives, we all have friends, we all have a myriad of different interests in life. So to sum up my point in two words: **** you!

Fanboys (and girls) are in every medium. they all share a passion for something and like to express it. You don't like it? leave, period.
Cancel your internet plan (or tell mom and dad to do it if you're under-age) and leave those who enjoy to discuss comic books in peace.

We don't need any holier-than-thou speeches. We don't need to stop doing what any fans of anything does. And we surely don't need to be lectured by someone who's contempt for fans of the genre has been made clear on numerous occasions.

This is how the world is. Deal with it or shut the **** up and leave.

[Shadowknight]

:o Well, I prefer the word fangirl, myself. ;):)
No no... we live in a PC world now, where we should respect the opinions of obsessive comic fans in a fair and gender-neutral way.

The correct title is "fan-PERSON" :O

[Cullen]

Cullen, are you mocking me?Nopers. Not intentionally, at any rate.

You dare?!Of course not. I would never ever ever mock you. Perish the thought.

>>Snicker<<

Actually, I thought I was poking fun at myself. Kind of. I know here I;m the most innocent of men, but elsewhere I can be... well... an a$$.

I know, I know. I can't believe either. But they tell me it's true, and Why should I doubt?

[Cullen]

No no... we live in a PC world now, where we should respect the opinions of obsessive comic fans in a fair and gender-neutral way.

The correct title is "fan-PERSON" :OI like that.:up:

[Herr Logan]

Nopers. Not intentionally, at any rate.

Of course not. I would never ever ever mock you. Perish the thought.

>>Snicker<<

Actually, I thought I was poking fun at myself. Kind of. I know here I;m the most innocent of men, but elsewhere I can be... well... an a$$.

I know, I know. I can't believe either. But they tell me it's true, and Why should I doubt?

Why, why, why haven't I yet trained you to stop speaking and return to your hole in the wall the moment you get caught misbehaving?? Is this the punishment for my laziness??

:wolverine

[Dyeathrose]

No no... we live in a PC world now, where we should respect the opinions of obsessive comic fans in a fair and gender-neutral way.

The correct title is "fan-PERSON" :O

:p Aww, but that takes away from all the life in it. However, I'm afraid I have no good replacement, so I'll take it. :up: Because when it comes to obsessiving over something, there is no gender boundaries. :)

[dan1]

To get back on topic, the problem is Joey Q and JMS seem to sort of vaguely grasp the idea that they've screwed up. Problem is they don't get the why and how. Therefore any attempt to fix things will likely just **** things up even more. I mean if you're car breaks down after being worked on at a local garage would you take it back to the same people?

Yeah..........if I was a dope who just mindlessly gives his hard earned money away to conceeded know it alls who don't know S**t about there own f**cking trade!

Been there, done that for the first 3 years of Mr. Copycats' run.

[roach]

if these two were mechanics and screwed up your car would you bring it back to them to fix it again???

[Silverstein]

Other than Aunt May, everybody else is either dead or in limbo. And once they get rid of MJ, there will be nothing left of the past to build on (other than all the ressurection crap that will be pure nonsense in my opinion).

:(

Also....A divorced 20-something male with emotional stress and probablly depression is not going to be any more relatable to people than a happily married couple.

[dan1]

if these two were mechanics and screwed up your car would you bring it back to them to fix it again???

Roach, I think Larry just asked that same question. And I just answered it. Again. No way in hell.

:-)

[Silverstein]

Wow. I was behind on that.

[shinlyle]

Ex-feckin'-actly! Those are most of my arguments against that term right there. :up:

The sheer ignorance and hypocrisy it takes to call another poster that... it's unforgivable. I say we skin them, string them up by their tendons, then toss salt and squirt citric juices at them. Justice must be meted out, and the hypocritical heathens must be cleansed of their folly with pain!

:wolverine

I'm just waiting for the next ignorant dullard to come along and say something condescending about how all of us are fanboys...just so that we can verbally dissect him in front of everyoen here.

[Doc Destruction]

Yes, heaven forbid someone show a HEALTHY marriage to oh, I dunno...INSPIRE people to have one themselves. I happen to have a healthy marriage myself, so I have no problem relating to Peter/MJ. And if I WASN'T married, and younger, and read about them together, it might make me want that myself.

This is why Quesada is a no-gettin'-laid loser.

[dan1]

Yes, heaven forbid someone show a HEALTHY marriage to oh, I dunno...INSPIRE people to have one themselves. I happen to have a healthy marriage myself, so I have no problem relating to Peter/MJ. And if I WASN'T married, and younger, and read about them together, it might make me want that myself.

This is why Quesada is a no-gettin'-laid loser.

And Doc, which I stated recently in a separate thread, you could, gosh, be young and not want anything to do with marraige, and still be happy for a married Peter. Wow, heaven forbid :rolleyes:

[WOLVERINE25TH]

But a married Spidey is a betrayl of th' character! Spidey stopped being Spidey when he went to college!

YOUNG SPIDEY FOREVER!

[Herr Logan]

Also....A divorced 20-something male with emotional stress and probablly depression is not going to be any more relatable to people than a happily married couple.

Depends on who the target audience is. :o


:(

:wolverine

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

But a married Spidey is a betrayl of th' character! Spidey stopped being Spidey when he went to college!

YOUNG SPIDEY FOREVER!
nice impersonation but it's missing the long rant and the calling us fanboys...
Besides everyone knows that the Spidey core is Amazing Fantasy... and anything beyond that is rubbish...
GWEN IS NOT A ****!!!! AS A MATTER OF FACT SHE WASN'T IN AMAZING FANTASY!!! THUS SHE DOESN'T EXIST!!!

[WOLVERINE25TH]

*Ahem*

The core of the Spider-Man character is the adventures of teenaged hero Peter Parker coming to terms with a mistake he made and repenting because of it. Ptahtic fanboys clamored for constant change and so Spidey began to age and lose the core elements of the character. They have become so dilusional that they think all the changes made to Spidey over the years are a good thing. As an iconic perpetual character, he should remain as he was created because he doesn't need to be realistic.

The only way to fix Spider-Man is to make him a teenager forever. Nothing past the first 10 issues of Spider-Man should exist because they take away from the core of the character.

But, ignorant fanboys won't hear my words.

Yet, I still try.

Because that's what Spider-Man would do.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

DId I pile th' **** on enough?

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

It's ok... I'm not going to make you write 1 zillion word essay on how much the greedy fanboys ruined spidey... yours is the cliff's notes version of "his" rants...

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Heh yeah, I pissed myself off just writin' it. God what a windbag. Love people who think memorizin' a thesaurus makes you a genius.

[Cullen]

Heh yeah, I pissed myself off just writin' it. God what a windbag. Love people who think memorizin' a thesaurus makes you a genius.Wait, what, it doesn't? What about memorizing a dictionary? Or an encyclopidea?

Have I wasted my entire life?

[roach]

Roach, I think Larry just asked that same question. And I just answered it. Again. No way in hell.

:-)


it stood being asked every five pages

[Gregatron]

Petty insults from petty people. I am a genuinely sensitive person, and these vile comments hurt. If that's your intent, congratulations.

No one has learned anything from the comics of old. Everyone belittles each other, hates each other, and has no hesitation about tearing each other to shreds. And that is the polar opposite of what Marvel and Spider-Man used to stand for.

I hate conflict. I try not to attack people and insult them personally, even if I really want to. I voice my opinions in a clear-cut, mater-of-fact fashion.

I believe in love and happiness and everyone treating each other with respect. If my own bitterness towards the direction comics has taken has led me to offend anyone here, then I am sorry.

But this place is starting to look like the the Comic Book Resources Forum, and that's not a compliment.


(Do we even have moderators here?)


In the end, my bottom-line point is that Spider-Man has been lost. The character Lee and Ditko created was so perfect, so universally appealing, that he earned his fame. And, as time went on, other writers and artists (such as Romita, Conway, Andru, Stern, Frenz, etc.) added to that legend, and did it well. Despite moving to college and "evolving", Spider-Man still looked, talked, acted, and felt like Spider-Man.

And then the proponents of growth and change took over completely, and laid on gimmick after gimmick, stunt after stunt. Now, "Spider-Man" is a stranger being battered from stunt to stunt, horror to horror. He is being controlled and read by people who only care about crude entertainment, about instant gratification. This is a major step-down from the intricately written, character-driven stories of the past.

Well, that's not necessarily true. Today's stories are character-driven. It's just that the characters are out of character.


As I've said, comics were created for a certain age bracket (all-ages acceptable, but aimed at kids), and were designed to be infinite, designed to be mythic. Where would comics be today if a writer in 1943 had decided that in order to be "realistic", Luthor would kill Superman with a chunk of Kryptonite, or that it would be neat to see Wonder Woman raped and beaten, or that Batman become a fugitive?

This genre and these characters were created with certain unspoken rules which, if obeyed, would keep them "evergreen". Unfortunately, today's creators are breaking all of the rules, at great cost to the characters and to people who are invested in them.

And that hurts. It hurts.


Anything goes, these days. There are no standards of decency. Many writers write the stories to serve them, not the characters. What they fail to understand is that they are not important. The characters are important. Being true to the characters created by Lee and Ditko and Kirby and all the rest are what's important. The writers and artists, once anomyous, uncredited people the readers never heard of (or from), have now become the stars of the books. It seems that the fans now argue more about the creators than the characters and the stories. And that's wrong.

After a while, after endless stunts and retcons and horrors and out-of-character behavior and 127 different versions of the characters, it all becomes bland and empty. The characters become hollow, the readers become jaded. There's no beauty, no mystery, no fun, no thought, no love, no passion. The characters and the fans become shells of what they once were, but they can't even hope to change things, because they're too entrenched in the routine of "*****-buy-*****-bag-board-buy-*****" to stop.


Most of the fans left today squabble among themselves endlessly, or worship every move the creators make because they don't know any better.

I'm not sure why I'm clinging to a sinking ship. Perhaps it's because I can't help but watch as these beloved characters are mangled. Because I care.

But it still hurts.

[The Joker]

Gregatron,you need to develop a thicker skin.Don't let faceless strangers on the INTERNET hurt your feelings.Do you really care what other people think about you on the net over some comic book characters??

If you see someone over stepping the line then hit the report button on their post.A moderator will respond to it and take appropriate action.

[shinlyle]

Gregatron,you need to develop a thicker skin.Don't late faceless strangers on the INTERNET hurt your feelings.Do you really care what other people think about you on the net over some comic book characters??

If you see someone over stepping the line then hit the report button on their post.A moderator will respond to it and take appropriate action.

What he said, man.

I hav eno personal probelm with you. You hat the current status of the Spider-Man books, so do I. You want him to be young forever, I don't. You've more than adequately stated your reasons, and I can see your point of view. That's enough for me. I understand alot of people on here have disagreed with you, but I've tried to stay out of it. I disagree, but that's all I can say. That, and any guy who goes to such lengths to write an essay about the defamation of Gwen Stacy's character is forever in my cool book.

[Gregatron]

Gregatron,you need to develop a thicker skin.Don't let faceless strangers on the INTERNET hurt your feelings.Do you really care what other people think about you on the net over some comic book characters??

If you see someone over stepping the line then hit the report button on their post.A moderator will respond to it and take appropriate action.


I've never had a thick skin. And I think that's why many of us read superhero comics to begin with.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Greg, here's th' thing...you had an idea and an opinion, but you started forcing it down people's throats. You presented everything as cold hard fact instead of what it was...your thoughts. Now, had you taken a different approach, people would have responded better. Yer approach to said responses have also given you a stigma. You ask fer intelligent responses, you get them, then you brush them off and basically say we don't have brain one 'cause we don't agree with you. That we somehow have been brainwashed and deluded.

Last time I checked, nobody liked Spidey's current direction save a couple people, and yet you come off like the ONLY person who gets things are amiss is you. Instead of accepting the possibility you might be MISTAKEN on a couple points, which have been pointed out to you, you continue as if WE were wrong.

[Gregatron]

What he said, man.

I hav eno personal probelm with you. You hat the current status of the Spider-Man books, so do I. You want him to be young forever, I don't. You've more than adequately stated your reasons, and I can see your point of view. That's enough for me. I understand alot of people on here have disagreed with you, but I've tried to stay out of it. I disagree, but that's all I can say. That, and any guy who goes to such lengths to write an essay about the defamation of Gwen Stacy's character is forever in my cool book.


Why can't people respectfully disagree with each other and talk about these things in depth in a calm fashion?

Do people take my comments as personal attacks because they're embarrassed by the fact that the read comics, and can't accept that comics are inherently juvenile and unrealistic?

[Gregatron]

Greg, here's th' thing...you had an idea and an opinion, but you started forcing it down people's throats. You presented everything as cold hard fact instead of what it was...your thoughts. Now, had you taken a different approach, people would have responded better. Yer approach to said responses have also given you a stigma. You ask fer intelligent responses, you get them, then you brush them off and basically say we don't have brain one 'cause we don't agree with you. That we somehow have been brainwashed and deluded.

Last time I checked, nobody liked Spidey's current direction save a couple people, and yet you come off like the ONLY person who gets things are amiss is you. Instead of accepting the possibility you might be MISTAKEN on a couple points, which have been pointed out to you, you continue as if WE were wrong.



You are free to ignore anything I say.

And, in their own eyes, everyone thinks they're right about everything. That's the problem.

Your contemptuous commentary is still inexcusable. I still object to you.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Now see, that's all well and good...except I'm obviously not the only one. I'm more vocal, sure, but that's just me 'cause I have VERY little patience.

I can also admit I'm wrong when my arguments get blown to Swiss Cheese.

[The Joker]

I've never had a thick skin. And I think that's why many of us read superhero comics to begin with.

Well I don't know about that.I've seen some real tough cookies on these forums in my time ;)

Bottom line,if anyone personally insults you,then you report them.It's against the rules here to insult others,and frankly if someone uses insults as part of a debate,then it shows how weak their arguement is if they have to insult you to make their post look better.

So don't stand for it.That's my advice to you.

[Doc Destruction]

I think what you feel, Greg is PASSION. We are all very passionate about our love for characters, that's why we collect in the first place.

Don't take it personally until someone actually slings a name at you, which is pretty much uncalled for around here, seeing as we aren't face to face or anything.

[Gregatron]

Well I don't know about that.I've seen some real tough cookies on these forums in my time ;)

Bottom line,if anyone personally insults you,then you report them.It's against the rules here to insult others,and frankly if someone uses insults as part of a debate,then it shows how weak their arguement is if they have to insult you to make their post look better.

So don't stand for it.That's my advice to you.

If you want insults, check out the last few pages.

When I speak of "fanboys", I do not necessarily refer to anyone here specifically. That's the difference.

[Gregatron]

Now see, that's all well and good...except I'm obviously not the only one. I'm more vocal, sure, but that's just me 'cause I have VERY little patience.

I can also admit I'm wrong when my arguments get blown to Swiss Cheese.


These things are subjective, to a degree.

But going back and examining the original source material to see what made it work and why is not "wrong".

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Now see, that I can agree with, but that's not how you've been saying it. Yer wording has Spidey in perpetual limbo forever and ever, which'd be even worse than unecessary changes they've done recently. Yer right, th' character has lost his core but it's not from character evolution.

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

If I offended you... I am sorry... I really liked your Gwen Defense essay, BUT Recently you've been expressing yourself in a dogmatic way regarding your views.
Also it seems as if you were shoving your views down our throats... and shoving things down throats could kill people...

I know when one is passioante about something one tends to rant, or act dogmatic, but chill out a bit dude... we're in a forum regarding a comicbook character...

But you should add a cliff's notes to your posts every now and then... Just kidding!!! or am I? LOL

Now we should smoke the peace pipe, but I'm not into smoking... lung cancer and all that crap... so can you accept my apology?

[Silverstein]

Yes. Accept the apology, and we'll all be friends and eat my favorite thing EVER....lo mein!!!

[WOLVERINE25TH]

But I prefer dumplings.

[shinlyle]

Bah! I want PIZZA! Dammit....everyone wants to change things to pasta-based foods, but everythign began as pizza!!!



kidding....I'm actually quite fond of dumplings and lo mein....;)

[Grim Goblin]

I'm man enough to admit when I get out of line, and having since cooled down, I can see I over-reacted yesterday so I apologize too Greg.

It's hard not to react when you get attacked from all sides and since comics are viewed as the bastard child of media, fanboys usually get it worse than a lot of other fans. Even the company we keep in business takes shots at the old school fans from time to time so it's easy to see why those fans can be a little loose on the draw sometimes.

With that said, I'm quitting smoking so it's only poetic that the last thing I smoke would be the peace pipe :D.

[Grim Goblin]

And now to get back on topic.

As I've said, comics were created for a certain age bracket (all-ages acceptable, but aimed at kids), and were designed to be infinite, designed to be mythic. Where would comics be today if a writer in 1943 had decided that in order to be "realistic", Luthor would kill Superman with a chunk of Kryptonite, or that it would be neat to see Wonder Woman raped and beaten, or that Batman become a fugitive?

This genre and these characters were created with certain unspoken rules which, if obeyed, would keep them "evergreen". Unfortunately, today's creators are breaking all of the rules, at great cost to the characters and to people who are invested in them.

I would have to partially disagree with you here. DC might have aimed at kids but I've seen a couple of documentaries about comics were Stan Lee himself said he wanted to write deeper stories for a more mature audience. If I remember correctly, he was thinking of quiting Timely Comics at the time because of that and his wife suggested he write the stories he wanted to write. The result was Fantastic Four #1.

That was the main difference between DC and the newly fledged Marvel back then. DC wrote simplistic stories for kids and Marvel wrote stories for teens and young adults.

Anything goes, these days. There are no standards of decency. Many writers write the stories to serve them, not the characters. What they fail to understand is that they are not important. The characters are important. Being true to the characters created by Lee and Ditko and Kirby and all the rest are what's important. The writers and artists, once anomyous, uncredited people the readers never heard of (or from), have now become the stars of the books. It seems that the fans now argue more about the creators than the characters and the stories. And that's wrong. That however, was spot on :up: .

[Gregatron]

Thank you all.

Perhaps I've been too narrowly focused lately.


But then, seeing the Superman and X-Men trailers recently have gotten me steaming.


At the end of it all, I'm just so...tired. Feeling such ennui.

Important distinction:

I'm tired of the bickering fans, the moronic "creators", the butchering of characters, the pain and the anguish, and the mocking.


But that does not mean I want to "grow up" and quit my interest in the characters.

And I don't mean to imply that I'm immature and selfish, like those I've criticized.

The fact is, I still LOVE the characters. I could read and reread books like, say Fantastic Four # 5, Incredible Hulk # 1, or Amazing Spider-Man 39-40 over and over again.

And I don't mock, I don't laugh, I don't feel an urge to "deconstruct" them. I accept the time and place that these books and characters were created in, and I embrace them, and my heart sings.

And then I see the "Iron Spider" on a cover at the local comic shop, or the Superman Returns trailer at my local theater, or Smallville on my tv, and I get that horrible feeling in my gut. The pain I feel when I see people who have no conception of who and what these characters are getting it wrong and passing it off as "high art" to new audiences who won't know any better.

I imagine kids saying how they hate that Gwen girl for betraying Spider-Man, or wondering if Batman and Dick Grayson were ever close. I hear them laughing at The Incredibles and its "funny" depiction of superheroes.


It's not that I take these books ultra-seriously. I just take offense when people (fans and pros) play fast and loose with them for their own pleasure, and insist on not taking them seriously at all.

They say every character is someone's favorite.


I simply feel that it is the responsibility of the creators (and even the fans) to uphold and defend the characters, to honor their creators, and to strive for dignity and creative integrity.


Superman must always be Superman. Topical references and fashions may change, Clark Kent may use a cell phone instead of a phone booth, but Superman must always be Superman. Devoted to truth and justice. Forever young. Forever brave. Competing against himself for Lois Lane's affections.


Batman must always be Batman. Devoted to justice. A master detective. A relentless manhunter. A shashbuckling, mysterious avenger of the night. Able to crack a smile now and then.


Spider-Man must always be Spider-Man. Forever young. The ultimate loner. Misunderstood. Forever agonizing over his decisions. Surrounded by friends and family. Forever dealing with girls, work, and life in general, while having to tend with costumed maniacs and ganglords. A hero by choice.


Is there room for interpretation? Yes. For breaking new ground? Yes.

But not at the expense of the characters.

But not to allow hotshots to "put their stamp" on someone else's work.

[Gregatron]

And now to get back on topic.



I would have to partially disagree with you here. DC might have aimed at kids but I've seen a couple of documentaries about comics were Stan Lee himself said he wanted to write deeper stories for a more mature audience. If I remember correctly, he was thinking of quiting Timely Comics at the time because of that and his wife suggested he write the stories he wanted to write. The result was Fantastic Four #1.

That was the main difference between DC and the newly fledged Marvel back then. DC wrote simplistic stories for kids and Marvel wrote stories for teens and young adults.

That however, was spot on :up: .


Stan succeeded "Marvelously" in that goal. But he never forgot the conceits of the genre, or who the primary audience was. He wrote in layers. Simple enough and action-oriented enough for kids to enjoy, but complex enough and philosophical enough for adults who were kids at heart to enjoy.


If Stan had truly written for a mature audience (and the Comics Code Authority wasn't around), then we would have seen MAX-style comics back then. And they wouldn't have been SUPERHERO comics, either.

[Spydernorbs]

Marvel really did screw up spidey these 2 past years.

[Gregatron]

The first step is admitting there's a problem without resorting to scapegoats.


Be true to the characters, and you won't lose your way.

[Gregatron]

Now see, that I can agree with, but that's not how you've been saying it. Yer wording has Spidey in perpetual limbo forever and ever, which'd be even worse than unecessary changes they've done recently. Yer right, th' character has lost his core but it's not from character evolution.


I'm sorry if I've been misconstrued.

I'll try to clear it up---


I think the most potent version/concept of Spider-Man is the original Lee-Ditko high schooler. The lonely, misunderstood high schooler who can't catch a break.

That said, the college-age stuff is nearly as good, because, in large part, only the window dressing changed. Peter got a little older and more confident, but nothing REALLY changed.


The classic example is Roger Stern's run in the 80s. He broke new ground and told interesting stories with the more confident, college-age Peter Parker, but, at the same time he was absolutely in sync with Spider-Man as a character and the tone of his world and his stories. And he did so without imposing permanent (and damaging, in my oh-so-humble opinion) changes onto the character (like the marriage or the resurrection of Norman Osborn or retconned garbage like Sins Past and The Other).

Find a writer who can do that, and maybe we can be happy.

As it stands, the characters have been abused for so long now, things have become so twisted, that we're all used to it (like a victim who falls in love with their abuser), and it might actually feel "wrong" if we're not arguing and feeling badly about Spider-Man's sorry condition every day.

If that's "evolution", then we should have stayed apes.

[Norman Osborn]

As it stands, the characters have been abused for so long now, things have become so twisted, that we're all used to it (like a victim who falls in love with their abuser), and it might actually feel "wrong" if we're not arguing and feeling badly about Spider-Man's sorry condition every day.

If that's "evolution", then we should have stayed apes.

When the problem started is certainly debateable. But I dare say you'll find a daunting task, to find more than a half a dozen readers who wouldn't agree....what we see in Spidey today is no more evolution than a duck suddenly becoming a tree....it aint evolution...it's change.....and not change for the better.

[Dyeathrose]

I've never had a thick skin. And I think that's why many of us read superhero comics to begin with.

I have to say that I'm definately one of those people. :O IRL, I'm a very sensitive person, and I did start reading comics to escape it. I think that's probably one reason why I loved Gwen when she became the girl-next-door, as even though she had her fiery moments, she was still quite soft to me, and I could honestly see a piece of myself in her. Not saying I'd ever want her to change from who she really is, but the reflection and seeing how someone else carries themselves was definately a boost of self-reassurance.

Which is why I do wish to keep the Spidey-marriage; a healthy marriage isn't going to lose anything on little kids, or adults. The relationship that MJ and Peter were developing, even when it was rushed, was more than likely going to be romantic, which I don't think is very out of character for someone like Peter, as he doesn't seem like the hip-happening-swinger that JQ seems to want him to be.

With everything that has happened to Spidey in the last couple of years, him not dying from a heart-attack is definately lucky for him. I feel that Peter, even if he was kept ageless (never going past his late-highschool to college age) would still end up seeming old, as a reflection of the events he has gone through. What's hurting him is that the staff now I don't think really know what they're dealing with, but they know what sells. For them, that's the bottom line.

[Gregatron]

When the problem started is certainly debateable. But I dare say you'll find a daunting task, to find more than a half a dozen readers who wouldn't agree....what we see in Spidey today is no more evolution than a duck suddenly becoming a tree....it aint evolution...it's change.....and not change for the better.


I think the inherent problem began when the fans took over the industry.

Before then, it didn't matter if the fans agreed on anything.

But then, over time (in the 70s, 80s, and 90s), more and more professionals coming aboard were people who grew up as obsessive fanboys. The creators of the characters, the ones who understood the characters, left or retired, and their replacements were fans.

The way it used to be (particualrly in the Golden Age), the next creative team to come aboard simply continued on doing what the creators had done, in the same style, with no interruption of rythym. Because it was a job to them. They didn't try to reinvent the wheel every month (especially not when such reinvention might cause sales to crash and keep dinner from reaching their plates).

So now the fanboys are in charge. And they can't agree on anything, and they respond to what the actual fans say on the Internet and such. They feed off each other. Chaos rules.

[Gregatron]

I have to say that I'm definately one of those people. :O IRL, I'm a very sensitive person, and I did start reading comics to escape it. I think that's probably one reason why I loved Gwen when she became the girl-next-door, as even though she had her fiery moments, she was still quite soft to me, and I could honestly see a piece of myself in her. Not saying I'd ever want her to change from who she really is, but the reflection and seeing how someone else carries themselves was definately a boost of self-reassurance.

Which is why I do wish to keep the Spidey-marriage; a healthy marriage isn't going to lose anything on little kids, or adults. The relationship that MJ and Peter were developing, even when it was rushed, was more than likely going to be romantic, which I don't think is very out of character for someone like Peter, as he doesn't seem like the hip-happening-swinger that JQ seems to want him to be.

With everything that has happened to Spidey in the last couple of years, him not dying from a heart-attack is definately lucky for him. I feel that Peter, even if he was kept ageless (never going past his late-highschool to college age) would still end up seeming old, as a reflection of the events he has gone through. What's hurting him is that the staff now I don't think really know what they're dealing with, but they know what sells. For them, that's the bottom line.



As I've said, there's nothing wrong with a healthy marriage, and I like Peter and Mary Jane as a couple.

But, setting that aside, the fact is that Spider-Man was created to be the ultimate loner, the ultimate hard-luck case.

Roger Stern once said classic Marvel died with Marvel Team-Up # 1 in 1972, when Spider-Man, the ultimate misunderstood loner, suddenly teamed up with a different hero every month. That's when it started being more about money and gimmicks than about the character. I tend to agree.

[Norman Osborn]

IBut then, over time (in the 70s, 80s, and 90s), more and more professionals coming aboard were people who grew up as obsessive fanboys. The creators of the characters, the ones who understood the characters, left or retired, and their replacements were fans.

Do you really believe JMS is a fan of Spidey? Reading Molten Man 2, Sins Past, Other, and the ever annoying Adventures of Spidey the side kick, I'm convinced he's not only "not" a fan...I sincerely doubt he picked up a Spidey book before he came aboard.