Battle for Bludhaven discussion thread

[GoldenAgeHero]

well two issues have come out so far. just read the second issue and it was pretty darn good. no details on who are the atomic knights nor who they work for, but so far they were looking for captain atom, who in an experiment controlled by father time whos been supplying the government with thierown meta humans. espsoing regular people to atom's radiation level's. heh lookslike dc is taking notes from marvel. also the teen titans makes a guest appearance in this title and yes wondergirl returns to the team, also theyre planing an to visit firebrand in next issue.

what did everyone think of the issue so far?

[hippie_hunter]

I always wanted a government sponsored team. Big named superheroes that have had connections with the government.

Captain Atom, Hal Jordan, Atom Smasher, Vixen, Arsenal, Kate Spencer, and Major Force.

[GoldenAgeHero]

I always wanted a government sponsored team. Big named superheroes that have had connections with the government.

Captain Atom, Hal Jordan, Atom Smasher, Vixen, Arsenal, Kate Spencer, and Major Force.

we do have checkmate, but you seemto hate the book, but you like superherosponsored teamswith connections with the government. checkmate gives you that.

[TheCorpulent1]

I liked #1 and loved #2. The Atomic Knights were badass, Father Time is setting up to be a pretty good antagonist (though not quite a villain, if I understand the story right), and I'm curious to see what the dissidents outside the wall and the Titans will do. The ending really made #2 for me, though. I can't wait to see where that goes. :)

[hippie_hunter]

we do have checkmate, but you seemto hate the book, but you like superherosponsored teamswith connections with the government. checkmate gives you that.

I haven't said that I hate Checkmate, I unfortunately haven't read it yet. It's just isn't original at all. Also the current Checkmate is a UN organization. I was thinking of a US sponsored team, with heroes that have had a past with the US government by working for the military, Sucide Squad, US controlled Checkmate, etc.

[TheCorpulent1]

You're complaining about originality in comic books? Please. Everything in comics rips something else off to some extent.

[hippie_hunter]

You're complaining about originality in comic books? Please. Everything in comics rips something else off to some extent.
There's a difference between ripping off something, and completely coping something.

[TheCorpulent1]

What has Battle for Bludhaven completely copied? The only thing I can think of that's close is No Man's Land, but the only real similarity between them is the destroyed city.

[cerealkiller182]

^^^^I think they are talking about Checkmate.

I really like this story. I like it when heroes are outlaws, it makes them more interesting. I really hope Firebrand and Monolith will stick around after Battle for Bludhaven.

[yenaled]

The ending for #2 made my DAY.

Also I really like Firebrand, seems like a good character with some personality.

[TheCorpulent1]

He's a little too old-school hippy for me. Waxing political every two minutes is annoying. Not even Green Arrow does it anymore.

But yes, that ending was badASS! The only thing that could've made it better is his other costume.

[yenaled]

True... that will remain as his special alt. universe costume.

[TheCorpulent1]

Alas... :(

[cerealkiller182]

Is Father Time and Uncle Sam the same person?

[yenaled]

Nope.

[TheCorpulent1]

Father Time seems to be Uncle Sam's polar opposite, actually. He's like the shadowy underbelly to Uncle Sam's bright and shining public face of America.

[cerealkiller182]

^^^^^Yeah, i just mentioned cause that was my first reaction to him and Father Time seems to be on the cover of Uncle Sam and the Freedom Fighters with a blurb that says not the Uncle Sam and Freedom Fighters you remember.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, they do look really similar. Didn't Uncle Sam die in IC, though?

[yenaled]

You can't kill an idea... or the spirit of a country :D

Uncle Sam isn't on the Freedom Fighters cover, that's still Father Time.

Uncle Sam doesn't have a tash.

http://www.youwillbejudged.com/SAM.jpg

That's Sam, Justin Gray has been showing it around.

Father Time and Sam seem connected somhow... like Corp says Polar Opposities however.

[The Question]

I always thought that Uncle Sam should be the Spectre's opposite number. You know, Sam reflects all the good in humanity, and The Spectre reflects the bad. Sam's about redemption and the triumph of the human spirit. The Spectre's about vengance and pointing out humanity's flaws.

[TheCorpulent1]

That seems really, really ethnocentric. If he were going to be the Spectre's opposite, I'd want them to change his identity to not be the American recruitment icon.

[The Question]

I suppose. But, were I writing it, I wouldn't have him be all about America. Simply the human spirit in general. The ideas that the flag (and almost all flags) represents. He would have had many names over the centuries, and Uncle Sam is just the one he goes by now.

[TheCorpulent1]

Associating him closely with an American icon still makes it ethnocentric, though. The Spectre's associated with the G-man Himself, who is in turn associated in some form with the three most major religions still in practice. Then his polar opposite would be... an American pro-military symbol? Why? :confused:

[The Question]

Because he isn't, by his very nature, and American pro-military symbol. That's simply what he goes by these days. Something he picked up in the U.S.'s darker days that just stuck. Were I writing it, he'd basically represent the human spirit as a whole. Think of it like Dream from Sandman. Over time, he acumilates many many names. Uncle Sam is just the one he goes by most often. I mean, just because Dream is called Morphius alot doesn't mean he owes special aleigence to the Greek Pantheon. Just the name he's most often refered to with. But, that's just how I'd write it.

[TheCorpulent1]

You're separating your story from reality. Uncle Sam is an American pro-military symbol. If you show absolutely anyone a picture of Uncle Sam, they will say, "Oh, that's Uncle Sam, the guy in all those US recruitment posters." You're trying to subvert that in the story, which is fine, but I guarantee you that you'll never be able to separate the two concepts from each other in people's minds, and it's more than likely the existing Uncle Sam perception will win out in the end since it's been around a lot longer. I just don't see it working, personally. If I saw the comic and it marketed him as the embodiment of the American spirit, that's fine. But the human spirit? I'd think the implication that Americans somehow got the human spirit "right" to the point where the actual embodiment of it likes to wear their colors and look like one of their symbols is pretty silly and more than a little ethnocentric.

[The Question]

You're separating your story from reality.

Yeah, probably. But then, most do to some degree.

Uncle Sam is an American pro-military symbol. If you show absolutely anyone a picture of Uncle Sam, they will say, "Oh, that's Uncle Sam, the guy in all those US recruitment posters." You're trying to subvert that in the story, which is fine, but I guarantee you that you'll never be able to separate the two concepts from each other in people's minds, and it's more than likely the existing Uncle Sam perception will win out in the end since it's been around a lot longer. I just don't see it working, personally. If I saw the comic and it marketed him as the embodiment of the American spirit, that's fine. But the human spirit? I'd think the implication that Americans somehow got the human spirit "right" to the point where the actual embodiment of it likes to wear their colors and look like one of their symbols is pretty silly and more than a little ethnocentric.


It might look that way. Hell, I've considered that it'd look that way. But, in my mind at least, I've got it all worked out. Think of it this way:




What is America? Well, as of right now, it's the richest country in the world. It's also one of the largest, and the second or third most populated. It's got 50 states and 2 populated areas in it's ownership. It controls most of the North American contonent, with the exception of Mexico and Canada. It's government is a democratic republic, where the people are represented by a president, a congress, and a set of judges, all with the peower to balance one another out. It is, to put it simplisticly, a thing. A very large, very complex thing, but a thing none the less. You can touch America. You can run your fingers through the sands of the Orange County shoreline and run through the wehat feilds of Kansas. America is something that has substance. It is not an ideal. Nor does America even represent an ideal. It can't. Really, it's a large area of land with a **** load of cities. That can't represent an ideal. The people who live there, on the other hand, can. People create ideas. They can even (for better or for worse, depending on how you veiw it), create beliefes. Something a good deal more powerful than ideas, for both good or ill.

Rome did not make itself great. It's people did. Rome did not make itself fall. It's people (and those people who invaded it) did. Russia did not make itself into a country strewn with corruption and organized crime. It's people did. People, my friend, are what make a country. People are the spirit behind a country. The American spirit is the same as the Russian spirit and the Roman spirit and the Chinese spirit. It's the human spirit. Just wrapped up in a good ol' American package.

Countries are not eternal. At least, the way they are is not constant. There will come a time where there is no nation called the United States of America. This is a fact. America may be invaded. It may colapse under economic trouble. Or, it may do what most civilizations do. It will grow. It will evolve. It will meld with other coultures to make a whole new one. One hundred years ago. There was no Germany. There was Prussia, and a few dozen tiny nations that spoke the same language. Then, the Keiser came along, and brought all of these nations that shared a common culture, and created Germany. Does that mean the Prussian spirit died and the German spirit was born? Hell no. It just got a new name and a bigger living space. When America is no longer America, will the American spirit die? No. It can't. It will change. It will get a new name and a new look, but at it's core it will still be the same. Because it's just the human spirit. Uncle Sam is no different from Lady Britania or that Bear with the hat that the U.S.S.R. had. It's a symbol for the triumph of the human spirit. Just made to apease the particular humans that it's being shown to. So, while on the surface, Uncle Sam may be "that guy on the recruitment posters," what he represents is an idea. An idea that's existed long before America and will live on long after.

And that's how I'd write it. Many people may perceive it as ethnocentric, as I would expect them to. But, it wouldn't be. And with a little luck, I'd change their minds.



EDIT: If this sounds like absolute bull****, take note. I'm just a little bit ****ed up in the head.

[Harlekin]

Naw, Uncle Sam doesn't really work as the Spectre's opposite, thanks to his current story roots, which you'd have to completely change to fit with your story. I don't know who read the American Talisman story from the Ostrander Spectre run, but Uncle Sam really is the iconic embodiment of the American ideal. Or at least, was.

[The Question]

What are his current story roots. I'm not familiar with them.

[Harlekin]

What are his current story roots. I'm not familiar with them.
Back when all those guys signed the declaration of independance, an American Talisman was forged out via alchemy. There are two types of reality, the real one, and the iconic reality (which segues into the Dreaming btw). The American Talisman would be America's link into the iconic reality. An iconic America, the Spirit of America.

Of course, the talisman eventually started to shatter and spread itself, and over time, different people tapped into the shattered pieces to gain awesome power. This way the Spirit took on a human form, serving as a symbol for America. That eventually grew to become Uncle Sam. Although a new and better American Talisman would later be created, and with it a new hero, Patriot, either Uncle Sam simply survived that or Patriot eventually changed into Uncle Sam. Either way, Uncle Sam is basically the Spirit of America in human form.

[The Question]

Okay. Cool. So, that throws my idea completely out the window. Still, would make for a cool out of continuity tale.