Batman's fighting style

[Chris Wallace]

Bear with me on this; it'll make sense when I'm done. I was reading Dark Lord-The Rise of Darth Vader, & it talked about how he had to adapt a new fighting style to accomodate the weight & stiffness of his artificial limbs. It got me to thinking, would Batman have to similarly abandon the flashier moves because of the weight & bulk of his costume & equipment?:batman:

[Qoèlet]

If Batman needed to physically act in accordance with physics and logic, he would do a lot of things differently. And, yes, wearing a tonne of equipment would somewhat limit his movement, so he would probably want to discard certain techniques. If Batman was really practical, however, he wouldn't be doing flashy kicks and the like to begin with because they are by definition risky, and not particularly high percentage attacks. Simple and efficient is effective. Also, he'd probably keep his chin down while he's fighting, but comic book artists (and martial arts movie choreographers, as often as not) draw and show off flashy things because they're pretty and that's what people want to see, whether or not it's realistic or effective in real practice.

[Chris Wallace]

I Considered The Practicality Factor, But Moreso I Was Thinking That Moving Like Liu Kang Would Be Hurtful To His Image. To Maintain The Whole "Creature Of The Night" Persona, He'd Wanna Get In, Hit 'em & Get Out Before They Know What He Did.

[Tin_Man]

Bear with me on this; it'll make sense when I'm done. I was reading Dark Lord-The Rise of Darth Vader, & it talked about how he had to adapt a new fighting style to accomodate the weight & stiffness of his artificial limbs. It got me to thinking, would Batman have to similarly abandon the flashier moves because of the weight & bulk of his costume & equipment?:batman:


You have to take into account that Batman has designed his suit to be aerodynamic, with maximum flexibility. Lightweight metals, lightweight armor, etc so he wouldnt need to adapt his style much. Darth Vader's armor is much heavier, much bulkier, than Batman's own suit.
Then again, I don't really see why Vader would need to change his fighting style to accomodate; all four of his limbs were almost all robotic, which would naturally be stronger and faster than his ordinary limbs. But that's going off-topic.

[The Question]

Way I see it, Batman's fighting style should be military hand to hand combat training. It's perfect for what he does. The take downs are quick, effective, and usually end with the other guy down for the count. Of course, throw in some knowlege of pressure points and judo throws, but I'm fairly certain that the more advanced military techniques encompass those.

[Tin_Man]

Batman has studied and is well-versed in 127 major forms of hand-to-hand combat. He's unpredictable, which makes him a great fighter.

[trustyside-kick]

Way I see it, Batman's fighting style should be military hand to hand combat training. It's perfect for what he does. The take downs are quick, effective, and usually end with the other guy down for the count. Of course, throw in some knowlege of pressure points and judo throws, but I'm fairly certain that the more advanced military techniques encompass those.

Ya if anything Judo should be a huge part to his fighting style. I understand the whole military style as well. And to go back in time about that one thread of yours The Question I understand why it bothered you that he knows 127 different styles...kind of ridiculous and does not need them all..at least not to master...to counter a crapload of different styles maybe though.

[Qoèlet]

Way I see it, Batman's fighting style should be military hand to hand combat training. It's perfect for what he does. The take downs are quick, effective, and usually end with the other guy down for the count. Of course, throw in some knowlege of pressure points and judo throws, but I'm fairly certain that the more advanced military techniques encompass those.
I'm pretty sure that they don't cover Batman's magical "tap you and you pass out" move, but no matter.
Your essential point, that Batman ought to be sticking to basic, efficient attacks and defences, seems to be right on. After all, it's fundamentals that the top competitors in any form of combative sport are going to win with. Wrestlers are going to win gold medals with doubles or high crotch take-downs, just as Yoshida won his gold medal in Judo with the same throw he wins all his matches with (Uchimada? Anyway, it's that throw from the double overhooks), and boxers like Ali and Lewis were dominant champions due to their stiff, accurate jabs... in other words, all these fighters dominate with the throws, takedowns, strikes etc. that they were learning on the first day they showed up in the gym, not with one of a hundred other fancy techniques they have an encyclopedic knowledge of. So what's the point of Batman's training 100+ styles? It's needless and ridiculous.

Once again, however, Batman reflects comic book artists' impressions of how a great martial artist should fight, gleaned from Kung Fu movies and other crap. Not a realistic view of how fights are going to go.

[Tin_Man]

So what's the point of Batman's training 100+ styles? It's needless and ridiculous.




The point is to be prepared; look at virtually every crisis that Batman has faced, and in nearly every single one, he is prepared. He trained in 100+ styles so he can recognize and counter anyone who would use one or more of those styles against him. That's Batman; he prepares himself for virtually any possibility, be it intellectual or physical. He's not going to use every single move on one thug, nor is he going to use a fancy flip-a-roo; the thug is going to throw an ungainly, untrained punch, and Batman will counter with something better, but simple. Now, if he faced down a martial artist, he would use the fancy moves to counter his opponent's attacks. The point is that by learning 100+ styles of combat, he is able to face and beat virtually anyone who raises a fist against him.

[trustyside-kick]

So what's the point of Batman's training 100+ styles? It's needless and ridiculous.

I know it seems needless and ridiculous but the main thing I can think of is that if you know certain styles you also know how to counter them. I think if anything that is the most important reason for anyone to know more than a few styles.

[Chris Wallace]

Good Point.

[Chris Wallace]

You have to take into account that Batman has designed his suit to be aerodynamic, with maximum flexibility. Lightweight metals, lightweight armor, etc so he wouldnt need to adapt his style much. Darth Vader's armor is much heavier, much bulkier, than Batman's own suit.
Then again, I don't really see why Vader would need to change his fighting style to accomodate; all four of his limbs were almost all robotic, which would naturally be stronger and faster than his ordinary limbs. But that's going off-topic.
ACCORDING TO THE BOOK, HIS ARTIFICIAL LIMBS-ESPECIALLY THOSE CRAFTED BY THE MED-DROIDS & NOT BY HIS OWN HAND, LACK THE AGILITY & COORDINATION THAT HE HAD AS A JEDI; AMONG OTHER THINGS, HE COULD NO LONGER EXECUTE THOSE FLYING LEAPS, NOR WOULD HE EVER BE ABLE TO SUMMON LIGHTNING LIKE HIS MASTER & PREDECESSOR.

[trustyside-kick]

Whoa...were those caps by mistake? :O

[Infinity9999x]

The point is to be prepared; look at virtually every crisis that Batman has faced, and in nearly every single one, he is prepared. He trained in 100+ styles so he can recognize and counter anyone who would use one or more of those styles against him. That's Batman; he prepares himself for virtually any possibility, be it intellectual or physical. He's not going to use every single move on one thug, nor is he going to use a fancy flip-a-roo; the thug is going to throw an ungainly, untrained punch, and Batman will counter with something better, but simple. Now, if he faced down a martial artist, he would use the fancy moves to counter his opponent's attacks. The point is that by learning 100+ styles of combat, he is able to face and beat virtually anyone who raises a fist against him.

See the problem with the 100+ thing is simply this: Batman is supposed to be a normal man, a normal man will NEVER EVER be able to learn 100+ different martial arts styles. It takes at least a year (with lots of training) to become good in one style, many years to become better then average, and a Lifetime to master. And this is all for ONE style. It's simply impossible for a normal man to know that many techniques.

[Tin_Man]

ACCORDING TO THE BOOK, HIS ARTIFICIAL LIMBS-ESPECIALLY THOSE CRAFTED BY THE MED-DROIDS & NOT BY HIS OWN HAND, LACK THE AGILITY & COORDINATION THAT HE HAD AS A JEDI; AMONG OTHER THINGS, HE COULD NO LONGER EXECUTE THOSE FLYING LEAPS, NOR WOULD HE EVER BE ABLE TO SUMMON LIGHTNING LIKE HIS MASTER & PREDECESSOR.

Yes, which is silly, in my opinion. General Grievous had cybernetic parts, and he danced around like a chimpanzee on an acid trip. The whole "Vader is slow because he is part-cyborg" thing is there to explain the lack of flipping around in the Original Trilogy; I guarantee you, that if the PT was made first and the OT was made in the modern era, Vader would be flipping around as easily as full organics.


See the problem with the 100+ thing is simply this: Batman is supposed to be a normal man, a normal man will NEVER EVER be able to learn 100+ different martial arts styles. It takes at least a year (with lots of training) to become good in one style, many years to become better then average, and a Lifetime to master. And this is all for ONE style. It's simply impossible for a normal man to know that many techniques

Actually, Batman is not supposed to be a normal man; he is supposed to be the peak of physical perfection for a human. Also, if he was meant to be a normal man, he'd be an everyday joe-shmo, not a multi-billionaire who dresses up at night to punch criminals in the face. Batman is the best that a human can become, and is meant to be illustrated as such. He devoted his life to methods which will aid him in fighting crime.
Also, Batman is about 30; at least, in his early thirties. His parents were killed when he was 8. At 14, he began to journey the Earth, learning new skills and fighting techniques.
When he came back to Gotham with these newfound skills, he was deadly, but he was by no means a master; he became a master via experience. And if you want to get technical, it is simply impossible for a man to fire grappling hooks and swing about a crime-ridden city. It is simply impossible for a man to fight crime all of his life via vigilante methods, and fight supervillains such as the venom-induced Bane or the supposedly-immortal Mr Freeze. But it's a comic; things are meant to be exaggerated. Supervillains are given these gimmicks and powers, and superheroes are given the means to combat them.

[Qoèlet]

The point is that by learning 100+ styles of combat, he is able to face and beat virtually anyone who raises a fist against him.
*Groan*
In Batman's fictional world, where there are secret special techniques limited to one martial art, which only have one workable defence restricted to students of that one art, that makes sense.
The thing is that, in reality, if you take strikers from a dozen different martial arts, the kicks and punches etc. that they throw in combat are going to be almost entirely identical. We only have two arms and two legs and seriously there are only so many ways to throw a punch or a kick. There might be slight differences, but the someone who practices Muay Thai is going to be able to respond to pretty much everything that someone who practices Karate or Taekwondo throws at him. Now, while he himself might not be throwing a spinning back kick, the idea is not alien to him and he should be able to defend against it: bottom line, he doesn't need to know how to do it to sidestep it (and for the record, the majority of the time I've seen that spinning back kick in practice, the opponent's best defence isn't to respond with something flashy, but to sidestep and throw a right cross... which any striking martial artist will know).

More from my direct experience, I can tell you that the vast majority of throws in Judo and Jiu-Jitsu are easily found in freestyle wrestling, and a good wrestler will already know how to respond to everything Judo or Jiu-Jitsu practitioners will use to take him down (I'm a slightly above mediocre wrestler here, no formal Judo or Jiu-Jitsu training, and nothing a couple Jiu-Jitsu and Judo instructors have done to me in sparring or in my presence have surprised me or seemed alien to me). Likewise, someone with good Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is perfectly capable of responding to what any wrestler, Sambo, Judo, catch-as-catch-can, Aikido, or any other martial art practitioner is going to do on the ground. It's just useless to do even five different martial arts for grappling and takedowns, because when it comes right down to it they all amount to basically the same thing.
If Batman were to have studied 3 or 4 different styles, that makes some logical sense: you don't find good punching in Jiu-Jitsu, or good grappling in kickboxing. But 100 is useless because the amount of overlap is ridiculous and any sensible person wouldn't waste so much time and effort relearning the same things under different names.

[Chris Wallace]

Tin Man May Be Right About His Vader Argument.

[The Question]

Ya if anything Judo should be a huge part to his fighting style. I understand the whole military style as well. And to go back in time about that one thread of yours The Question I understand why it bothered you that he knows 127 different styles...kind of ridiculous and does not need them all..at least not to master...to counter a crapload of different styles maybe though.


Thing is, you don't have to know an established style in order to counter it. You have to be able to read and individual person's style. Because, whenever someone learns to fight, they alter the style they've learned slightly to fit them. So really, the best way to counter someone is not to know a **** load of moves, but to have alot of practical experiance and to be able to read people well.


I'm pretty sure that they don't cover Batman's magical "tap you and you pass out" move, but no matter.

Actually, I'm fairly certain that special forces soldiers are trained to learn pressure points.

Your essential point, that Batman ought to be sticking to basic, efficient attacks and defences, seems to be right on. After all, it's fundamentals that the top competitors in any form of combative sport are going to win with. Wrestlers are going to win gold medals with doubles or high crotch take-downs, just as Yoshida won his gold medal in Judo with the same throw he wins all his matches with (Uchimada? Anyway, it's that throw from the double overhooks), and boxers like Ali and Lewis were dominant champions due to their stiff, accurate jabs... in other words, all these fighters dominate with the throws, takedowns, strikes etc. that they were learning on the first day they showed up in the gym, not with one of a hundred other fancy techniques they have an encyclopedic knowledge of. So what's the point of Batman's training 100+ styles? It's needless and ridiculous.

It's basically to make him look cool.

Once again, however, Batman reflects comic book artists' impressions of how a great martial artist should fight, gleaned from Kung Fu movies and other crap. Not a realistic view of how fights are going to go.

Of course. Bruce Lee, arguably one of the best fighters of the 20th century, always said that you should cultivate your own style from instinct and experiance. And carry weapons if you can.

[Chris Wallace]

The First Part Of Your Post Is Very Insightful. As For The Second, I Wasn't In Recon, Special Forces Or Even Infantry & We Still Learned Pressure Points. It's A Part Of Military Basic Training. I imagine the special ops guys would know even more.

[The Question]

See? Military teaches pressure points. All Batman would have needed to do was hire someone with alot of military combat experiance, and learn how to fight from him. Now, I'm with the understanding that military hand to hand combat training is designed to be learned very quickly. Am I correct?

[Chris Wallace]

Boot Camp Is 3 Months In The Marines; Other Branches Are Less.

[The Question]

Cool. So, way I see it, Bruce would have, logically, found an old special forces guy, and trained with him for several months to a year.

[Odin's Lapdog]

Bear with me on this; it'll make sense when I'm done. I was reading Dark Lord-The Rise of Darth Vader, & it talked about how he had to adapt a new fighting style to accomodate the weight & stiffness of his artificial limbs. It got me to thinking, would Batman have to similarly abandon the flashier moves because of the weight & bulk of his costume & equipment?:batman:
or perhaps his costume would be augmented in order to allow for the extra agility needed to travel across rooftops and swing around.

the fighting style he woudl use woudl depend on his foe, the number he's up against and the level of fighting skill they are at.

in a comic world, his techniques would look no different to daredevil, spidey, cap etc...


oh and i believe a true martial arts expert would need to be trained in no more than five varied arts of combat to the highest level in order to fully be able to deal with anything the world throws at him. (these are five unarmed techniques, i'm not sure about how many weapon based ones would be required but probably all of them).

100+ seems bizzare.

all in all, it'd be easier to change the costume than to change fighting style but all martial artists have to deal with restriction of clothing in a real fighting situation, normal clothes are in no way are free as a gi so if you were caught in a situation that would lead to a tussle, you'd have to think of what you're going to do unless you want to rip your trousers wide open :o

[Chris Wallace]

Valid Points, But I Didn't Say "change"; I Said "adapt".

[Odin's Lapdog]

same difference, i'm not necessarily talking about changing martial arts style, rather a techniques within a discipline.

[Qoèlet]

As For The Second, I Wasn't In Recon, Special Forces Or Even Infantry & We Still Learned Pressure Points. It's A Part Of Military Basic Training. I imagine the special ops guys would know even more.
From what I know, one of the key words in "pressure point" is "Pressure", so tapping someone in a point does nothing. Additionally, while I never said the military does not use pressure points, I seriously doubt, unless you can provide some factual information to the contrary, there is a pressure point that allows a slight push from the index figure to render a person unconscious for several minutes. Pressure points can be used to immobilize a person, allowing you to put him to the ground and restrain him, or forcing him to break his grip, and be useful in many situations.... but a touch-KO? Not buying it.

[Chris Wallace]

I Never Said There Was.

[Qoèlet]

I Never Said There Was.
Good enough, I was simply clarifying my own statement.

[Chris Wallace]

I Must Admit, I Didn't Expect The Type Of Well Thought-out Responses I've Gotten On This Thread. So Many Bat-fans Are So Protective Of Their Beloved Dark Knight That Anything I Say Is Taken As A Criticism & Then All Hell Breaks Loose.

[The Question]

From what I know, one of the key words in "pressure point" is "Pressure", so tapping someone in a point does nothing. Additionally, while I never said the military does not use pressure points, I seriously doubt, unless you can provide some factual information to the contrary, there is a pressure point that allows a slight push from the index figure to render a person unconscious for several minutes. Pressure points can be used to immobilize a person, allowing you to put him to the ground and restrain him, or forcing him to break his grip, and be useful in many situations.... but a touch-KO? Not buying it.


Well, who says he's lightly touching them? For all we know, he may be applying alot of pressure. And there are nerve clusters that, if the right amount of pressure is applied to them, causes someone to be paralyzed or to pass out.

[Odin's Lapdog]

well considering batman's a smart individual that deals with ancient techniques of most martial arts, i wouldn't be surprised if he used misdirection and hynotic guestures to aid in his combat.


there is a british magician named derren brown that can knock someone over just by blowing at them just by telling them he would.

now judging on batmans presence being fairly hypnotic and that you're taken back by his presence, if he hit you and you thought you were going down, if he used this hypnotic suggestions, no matter how lightly he touched you, you bet your ass you'd go down.

[The Question]

Hypnosis doesn't work like that. You can't just look at someone and they're hypnotised. First off, hypnosis requires you to talk to the other person for a lengthy amount of time. There's no such thing as "hypnotic gestures." Batman's the quiet type, and in a fight, no one's going to sit down to have a chat. Second, hypnosis doesn't work on someone who isn't willing to be hypnotised. That's just how the brain works. Hypnosis cannot be used in combat practically.

[Odin's Lapdog]

there is no such thing as "hypnotic gestures." .
Dude, there quite clearly is, derren brown has been doing his thing on tv for years, there quite clearly is.

feel free not to believe me for there is no way i can convince you on this medium.

[The Question]

No, there isn't. Body language is a factor, but hypnosis comes in large part through talking. A hypnotist has to play the right mental cues, make the subject feel comfortable, that sort of stuff. Either way, hypnosis cannot be used in hand to hand combat. Doesn't work.

[Chris Wallace]

That Sounded Like A Bit Of A Stretch.

[Tin_Man]

Dude, there quite clearly is, derren brown has been doing his thing on tv for years, there quite clearly is.

feel free not to believe me for there is no way i can convince you on this medium.


Television and live combat are two different things entirely.

[Odin's Lapdog]

No, there isn't. Body language is a factor, but hypnosis comes in large part through talking. A hypnotist has to play the right mental cues, make the subject feel comfortable, that sort of stuff. Either way, hypnosis cannot be used in hand to hand combat. Doesn't work.
I personally feel that when really old martial artists are practicing some of their techniques that they don't often pass down and demonstrate great feats of strength and control, a form of control is gained over over their openent.

I've seen a martial artist attempt to try and strike a kung fu ancient master and he physically couldn't do it, the presence of the master (who couldn't use vocal cues since they didn't speak the same language), sent a message through some means to his brain to stop him going through with it (described as the sensation you get when someone is trying to force your hand onto something hot and you are struggling back against it). IN the end he actually had to back well away from the master.


it was described as some sort of chi manipulation but i feel it comes down to intimidation and possible non-vocal suggestions that trigger some hypnotic state. It may not be a deep trance, it may not be for long, but it's for long enough to get what needs to be done finished and sorted.

again, i'm not expecting this to be in the inventory of all martial artists out there but honestly, if someone has practically studied them all to the nth degree, the art of misdirection and intimidation through suggestion of a hypnotic state would definitely be something they would pick up.


i mean to a very very small extent, if i told you something was going to hurt, you'd probably feel more pain occuring than if i didn't say anything at all, the anticipation of new pain can magnify the actual sensation.

now magnify that ten times by being caught by a well feared vigilante where his legends are well known, the vocal cues don't even need to be that direct cause you've heard all the rumours about him and you're also in shock, one blow and you'd be down like a light.


I'd just like to say the original point isn't mine, i'm just formulating a rational example based on what i've seen to see how i feel it could be perceivable in a real life situation if these characters existed.

[The Question]

That's not hypnosis. Not in the slightest. That's just being very intimidating. Some people aren't going to feel very confident fighting a master because, well, he's a master.

[Odin's Lapdog]

it wasn't just intimidation. It was his special technique....

he was physically unable to approach this guy, not just physically unwilling

[The Question]

Then maybe he's got some freaky mind powers. You can't use hypnosis in hand to hand combat. Hypnosis just does not work that way.

[Chris Wallace]

You'd Be Surprised How Narrow The Gap Is Between Unwilling & Unable; It's Like "Spider-Man 2". When His Mind Din't Want To Do Something His Body Lost The Ability.

[saint sinner x]

Batman is consider probably the best martial artist alive. You don't believe me go to www.dccomics.com then go to secret files and then click on batman, is in a pdf.format so you'll need adobe acrobat reader. Now someone in here said it takes a lifetime to master 127 styles of the martial arts, I'm going to have to disagree with that person. You can become a master as little as 25years for all martial arts if all you do is of course you only breathe and live in training the arts i'm talking about you wake up at sunrise you train for 14hours a day 24/7. I've been training traditional shao-lin kung-fu for about 7years now and i'm only 19years old i train 3times a week but i'm the equivilant of a 1st kyo black belt in shotokan karate. and as for shotokan karate it will take the average person to reach 1st kyo black belt like about 10to 12years of training. What i'm trying to say is it all depends on you on how good you are and how much you want it. I'm sure if any of you guys see your loved ones drowning or about to get hurt you would try to do something about a.s.a.p. right? Anyways, special forces trains in CQC which is "close quarter combat" which it involves pressure points attacks, joints manupilation,counters,parrying,low kicks for sweeping,disarms,grappling,and submissions. Special forces are trained to kill not to fight in terms of unarmed combat. Batman has mastered this style but he barely uses it this is why he has mastered leapord blow which is the equivilant of the shao-lin death touch. One touch and your dead, Batman is like the comic book version of bruce lee the world's greatest fighter the only difference is that batman is smarter and more tactical than bruce lee and yes i know what your thinking and i acknowledge that batman is fictional and bruce lee is real then again i was just comparing fiction with non-fiction which is virtualy impossible to do.

[Chris Wallace]

But Batman's Also The Most Non-conventional Martial Artist. The Only Time He Employs Anything Remotely Resembling A Traditional Martial Arts Stance Or Technique Is When He's Up Against Someone W/real Training.

[Tin_Man]

Which is exactly why he learned martial arts; so he would be prepared to fight those who have themselves mastered it. Anyone who knows anything about Batman is that he is prepared to handle virtually any situation.

[The Question]

Having conventional and stylized training doesn't give you any more of an edge over someone who's also had conventional and stylized training. All you need to be a good fighter ids endurance, reflexes, knowing how to take a hit, and knowing how to read people. That can be cultivated from formal training, but it really comes from practical experiance. Most of the best fighters in the world got that way not from sparring or meditating underneath a waterfall for 20 days, but from getting into alot of brawls and learning from them.

[Chris Wallace]

Yes, But At The Same Time, You Can't Fight 8 Brainless Thugs Without Some Type Of Skill.

[The Question]

Batman is consider probably the best martial artist alive. You don't believe me go to www.dccomics.com (http://www.dccomics.com) then go to secret files and then click on batman, is in a pdf.format so you'll need adobe acrobat reader. Now someone in here said it takes a lifetime to master 127 styles of the martial arts, I'm going to have to disagree with that person. You can become a master as little as 25years for all martial arts if all you do is of course you only breathe and live in training the arts i'm talking about you wake up at sunrise you train for 14hours a day 24/7. I've been training traditional shao-lin kung-fu for about 7years now and i'm only 19years old i train 3times a week but i'm the equivilant of a 1st kyo black belt in shotokan karate. and as for shotokan karate it will take the average person to reach 1st kyo black belt like about 10to 12years of training. What i'm trying to say is it all depends on you on how good you are and how much you want it. I'm sure if any of you guys see your loved ones drowning or about to get hurt you would try to do something about a.s.a.p. right? Anyways, special forces trains in CQC which is "close quarter combat" which it involves pressure points attacks, joints manupilation,counters,parrying,low kicks for sweeping,disarms,grappling,and submissions. Special forces are trained to kill not to fight in terms of unarmed combat. Batman has mastered this style but he barely uses it this is why he has mastered leapord blow which is the equivilant of the shao-lin death touch. One touch and your dead, Batman is like the comic book version of bruce lee the world's greatest fighter the only difference is that batman is smarter and more tactical than bruce lee and yes i know what your thinking and i acknowledge that batman is fictional and bruce lee is real then again i was just comparing fiction with non-fiction which is virtualy impossible to do.


Okay, here's the deal: It is impossible to master 127 different fighting styles. It's also completely impractical and useless. Military hand to hand combat training would work best for someone like Batman.


Yes, But At The Same Time, You Can't Fight 8 Brainless Thugs Without Some Type Of Skill.


Skill can be cultivated from experiance and not formal training. Now, of course, knowing some moves beforehand helps you not die, and should be encouraged. All I'm saying is, training in a dojo under some asian guy isn't necesairily going to make you a better fighter than a guy who simply learned several military hand to hand combat techniques and then just got alot of experiance from fighting alot. In fact, you'd probably be a worse fighter if you went the former rout. Formalized martial arts, as we have them today, aren't good for street fights. They have rules. regulations. They're like a port. Not actual combat.

[Chris Wallace]

For A Guy Who Calls Himself The Question, You Sure Have A Lot Of Answers. :)

[The Question]

Oh, I haven't heard that one before. :rolleyes:


And I just happen to read alot. And have common sense. Most martial arts as they are now are a sport, not real combat. All the rules and etiquite holds back a fighter and puts mental handycaps on them. It's great for excercise, but not for actual fighting. Best way to become a good fighter is to learn some good moves, then spar with a friend. And not going easy. Wear pads for the first few times, and go all out. Eventually, wear less and less padding to learn to deal with the pain.

[saint sinner x]

Okay, here's the deal: It is impossible to master 127 different fighting styles. It's also completely impractical and useless. Military hand to hand combat training would work best for someone like Batman.


First of all it's not impossible to master 127fighting styles if you have the drive and if all you do is train,train and train. Impractical and useless? Hell no it's not and deep down you know it's not. Some styles are better than others some have weaknessess that are easy to exploit and some has weaknessess that are hard to exploit. I can see as for you it would be impossible to master it because you probably would take martial arts as a source for getting fit and i highly doubt you are fit. Military hand to hand combat would not work best for batman because if you put someone who is skilled in muy thai agaisnt someone who is skilled in CQC my money is on the muy thai fighter. And batman doesn't kill he only kills when neccesary he's not punisher don't get me wrong their both bad ass but punisher kills for kicks and batman well he doesn't. Batman could easily take down captain america, captain america is only skilled in judo and boxing as for batman he has mastered all 127fighting styles if you can't handle it then deal with it and get over it.

[The Question]

First of all it's not impossible to master 127fighting styles if you have the drive and if all you do is train,train and train.

Yes. It is. No matter how hard you train, it would take several decades to get even remotely close.

Impractical and useless? Hell no it's not and deep down you know it's not.

No, it really is.

Some styles are better than others some have weaknessess that are easy to exploit and some has weaknessess that are hard to exploit.

Yeah. But mastering 127 different fighting styles is a ****ing retarded way of getting around that. When it comes down to it, you really should take the essential manuevers and skills and put them together into your own personal style that fits you. That's how a good fighter fights. A combination of the judo throws and grappling techniques you're comfortable with. That combined with military hand to hand combat training, which basically teaches you how to be a good fighter along with the moves, and you'd be fine.

I can see as for you it would be impossible to master it because you probably would take martial arts as a source for getting fit and i highly doubt you are fit.

That's a rather unfair assumption to make. Now, I don't have the body of an olympic level athlete, but I'm in decent shape, and I'm regularly active.

Military hand to hand combat would not work best for batman because if you put someone who is skilled in muy thai agaisnt someone who is skilled in CQC my money is on the muy thai fighter.

Why? Muy thai isn't necessairily better than CQC. Now, if it's one of those muy thai fighters who's been training since he or she is three, then of course the CQC guy's going to loose. Nothing to do with muy thai being better. It's just that those specific muy thai fighters are ****ing machines. Most of them are trained to completely ignore pain from a very young age. A level of fighting prowess that Batman would never be able to achive, mind you. You'd have to train from very early childhood to get to that level. Batman started in his teens. Wouldn't work.

And batman doesn't kill he only kills when neccesary he's not punisher don't get me wrong their both bad ass but punisher kills for kicks and batman well he doesn't.

So? What does killing have to do with it. CQC doesn't necessairily mean he's going to kill the other guy. If he's trying not to, he could easily go without killing.

Batman could easily take down captain america, captain america is only skilled in judo and boxing as for batman he has mastered all 127fighting styles if you can't handle it then deal with it and get over it.

How many styles you know has nothing to do with how good you are. It just has everything to do with how little a life you have. Being a good fighter has to do with how well you use the skills you have in combat scenarios. You can learn all the moves you want, but unless you can use them well you'd still get your ass kicked. And, you forget that Cap is a low level superhuman. He's faster, stronger, more agile, and has far greater endurance than Batman or what Batman could ever hope to have. Cap's been known to run five miles in a little over a minute and bench over 1000 pounds while carrying on a casual conversation. And, his sensory input and reflexes are much faster than humanly possible. He literally sees faster. That combined with his years of battle experiance, he is an incredibly formidable oponent. He'd most likely beat Batman.

[TheGrayGhost]

Yes. It is. No matter how hard you train, it would take several decades to get even remotely close.

As much as I wouldn't like to get into another debate, I'm simply baffled when people argue that certain things aren't possible in fiction. Even if there is some semblance of our "reality" in the Batman mythos, it still exists in a realm where acheiving the impossible is common and often times actually ordinary. You being an intelligent poster and devoted comic fan probably should know this better than anyone.

I don't think what is humanly possible in our world should be the measure of what is possible in the comics/cartoons. That said, the official DC Archives and The Ultimate Guide to The Dark Knight both list Batman as having mastered all 127 major styles of combat and, among other things, being one of the leading martial artists in the world. Whether you believe this is accurate or not is solely up to you, but there's no denying the fact that it's official from the DC Comics end. However, this doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong; the abilities of all heroes fluctuate to suit a given story.

And, you forget that Cap is a low level superhuman. He's faster, stronger, more agile, and has far greater endurance than Batman or what Batman could ever hope to have. Cap's been known to run five miles in a little over a minute and bench over 1000 pounds while carrying on a casual conversation. And, his sensory input and reflexes are much faster than humanly possible. He literally sees faster. That combined with his years of battle experiance, he is an incredibly formidable oponent. He'd most likely beat Batman.

You've probably heard it a million times, but it is widely understood that Batman has pushed his mind and body to the pinnacles of human perfection; he's essentially the ultimate warrior. I've always understood that as lower-level superhuman capacity akin to Achilles of the Greek myth (one of the possible reasons why Wonder Woman is attracted to Batman in JL/JLU.) Interestingly enough, this has been backed up by quite a few sources, most from the cartoons. In any case, "pinnacles of human perfection" is the constant in most of his descriptions, a bold testament to the abilites of The Dark Knight. Whether or not this means Batman is as powerful as Captain America is certainly contestable, but I'm confident that Batman's arguably superior thinking and intellect and access to billions of dollars of weaponry is enough to make the battle fair for both characters, maybe even tip the scales in favor of Batman.

But in fiction, each character has an equal shot at winning; it all depends on the popularity of the character and the decisions of the writer.

[The Question]

As much as I wouldn't like to get into another debate, I'm simply baffled when people argue that certain things aren't possible in fiction. Even if there is some semblance of our "reality" in the Batman mythos, it still exists in a realm where acheiving the impossible is common and often times actually ordinary. You being an intelligent poster and devoted comic fan probably should know this better than anyone.

Yes. But if you have a character doing what is impossible, you have a super human character. Are you saying that Batman is super human?

I don't think what is humanly possible in our world should be the measure of what is possible in the comics/cartoons.

It should be when it's a human character who's not supposed to have super powers of any kind.

You've probably heard it a million times, but it is widely understood that Batman has pushed his mind and body to the pinnacles of human perfection; he's essentially the ultimate warrior. I've always understood that as lower-level superhuman capacity akin to Achilles of the Greek myth (one of the possible reasons why Wonder Woman is attracted to Batman in JL/JLU.)

So, you're telling me that Batman, a character who's entire apeal is that he's a normal human with training, ahs atained super human abilities through his training? Bull****. Absolute bull****. Batman may be perfect for a human, but Cap is super human. He dwarfs Batman in all regards.

Interestingly enough, this has been backed up by quite a few sources, most from the cartoons. In any case, "pinnacles of human perfection" is the constant in most of his descriptions, a bold testament to the abilites of The Dark Knight.

Not the same as Cap. Cap is the pinacle of perfection (and possible beyond it) in all areas. That is impossible to acheive through training.

Whether or not this means Batman is as powerful as Captain America is certainly contestable, but I'm confident that Batman's arguably superior thinking and intellect and access to billions of dollars of weaponry is enough to make the battle fair for both characters, maybe even tip the scales in favor of Batman.

Why is Batman suddenly smarter than Cap. I've always thought that Cap is supposed to be a genius in terms of tactical thinkng.

But in fiction, each character has an equal shot at winning; it all depends on the popularity of the character and the decisions of the writer.

Popularity should not be a factor. It is, but that only cheapens the story and the characters.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, I think the way it's been explained through Batman Begins has been that Bruce learned several different styles......and just developed his own out of usage of these various styles.

I think trying to imply Bats has full and great use of over 127 styles of martial arts is kinda crazy. Saying he is familar with over 127 is better, but he cannot be formidable in all those styles. Him developing his own style out of training in these various styles is the way to go.

Remember, Bruce is a genuis. His mind is on an epic scale in terms of knowledge he can take in and just how smart he is, and it's the biggest part of what makes him tick. And physically, he's as good as it gets without being superhuman. His tactical knowledge, not just HOW to fight but the attacks and WHEN's of it also count.

Popularity, sadly, does count for something.......it does have an effect on writers.

[TheGrayGhost]

Yes. But if you have a character doing what is impossible, you have a super human character. Are you saying that Batman is super human?

He does the impossible all of the time. He's still human, but he's the perfect human. If that implies superhuman, than yes. But I don't look it at that way at all; I just classify his incredible, incredibile "perfect human" abilities as near or just at "lower-level superhuman." But he's still human and like Achilles, Batman is capable of such awesome feats that go above and beyond the normal capabilities of a human.

It should be when it's a human character who's not supposed to have super powers of any kind.

Batman may be human, but the things he has done even without any type of superhuman implication is beyond human capacity.



So, you're telling me that Batman, a character who's entire apeal is that he's a normal human with training, ahs atained super human abilities through his training? Bull****. Absolute bull****. Batman may be perfect for a human, but Cap is super human. He dwarfs Batman in all regards.


No, I'm not telling you that.

And CA is "superhuman?" I thought he was, like Batman, at the peak of perfect human. Strange.


Not the same as Cap. Cap is the pinacle of perfection (and possible beyond it) in all areas. That is impossible to acheive through training.


EDIT: Are you talking about human perfection? If so, it is clear that Batman also reached such a height (as evidenced by the DC Archives and in the various feats he has accomplished in stories.) And whether or not that can be accomplished through training is irrelevant because he exists in a realm where it is possible. It also helps that Batman is gifted with superior genetics. But just for argument's sake, one can also say that reaching such a height with some type of serum is impossible. Which is why possibilities and impossibilities should be thrown out of the discussion.

In any case, I'm always skeptical about the superheroes who attain their powers by some artificial mechanism (i.e. radioactive spider, gamma rays, supersoldier serum, etc.)

[Qoèlet]

And CA is "superhuman?" I thought he was slightly above the perfect human. Strange.
Being above the perfect human, even if only slightly, is the very definition of "superhuman" (I was under the impression that Captain America had simply attained physical perfection as a human, which Batman was also defined as possessing, but not matter).

Now, there was a whole CQC vs. Muay Thai debate up the page... I would say that's probably a bit pointless. From what I gather from conversations with my friends in the infantry, at least some of what soldiers learn for hand-to-hand is very similar to Muay Thai. I've seen my pal demonstrate a double collar tie ("Thai Clinch" as it's popularly called), among other things. The main difference would tend to be that the military trains to integrate weapons and the like into the mix, as well as bits and pieces from other martial arts... the point is to form a system that works in the situations you need to use it. Obviously a boxer isn't learning how to use a combat knife in combat, because he wants to box, not shank someone. Likewise, a soldier's not going to practice pure boxing or muay thai, because they have rules to minimize injury and they are by definition limited in their scope (and besides, he probably has a weapon on him or around him in combat, so fists are the last resort). Of course, Batman's developed something different that doesn't even exist in the real world. He's mixing the things the Thai Boxer does with a few of the things the soldier does, mixed with some things from Judoka.... but then he isn't going to be using military training for guns and knives because, guess what, he doesn't use them.. what he is throwing in, however, is wild rope swinging acrobatics, quick drawn batarangs, and a mess of other gagets mr. CQC has never heard of.

So yeah, what Batman does is probably a lot like military CQC.... except entirely different.

[TheGrayGhost]

Being above the perfect human, even if only slightly, is the very definition of "superhuman" ).

You are correct. I'll edit what I said.

(I was under the impression that Captain America had simply attained physical perfection as a human, which Batman was also defined as possessing, but not matter)

That is what I meant to say at first. You mean to tell me that this is not the case? What have they been doing to Captain America recently?

[Qoèlet]

That is what I meant to say at first. You mean to tell me that this is not the case? What have they been doing to Captain America recently?
I never read Marvel comics, to be honest. I just assumed you were right about your [mis]statement, and was expressing my own confusion.

[Tin_Man]

"There are 127 major styles of combat. While abroad, Bruce learned them all, from Aikido to Yaw-Yan. His knowledge of so many varied disciplines has made Bruce an unconventional and unpredictable opponent, quite capable of countering a Savate kick with a Caporeira dodge, then kayoing with a paw-knuckle strike!"
-Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight


He has learned the styles, not mastered, which makes a bit more sense in light of the posts here. But he never just sat in a dojo to learn; no, Batman learned by doing. He's a hands-on person when it comes to training; he is no fool.

On the subject of Batman vs Captain America, I'd have to go with Batman. Experience is in Batman's favor, to be honest. He's been studying since he was 14; along with his unconventional fighting style, he has been schooled by the ninja Kirigi in stealth and the ways of the shadow warrior. Add to this his experience at fighting super-powered criminal types; Cap would be no different. Super strength? Technique beats strength any day. Super speed? Proper timing renders this useless. Batman has fought people like Cap several times over (Ra's Al Guhl, anyone?), but Cap has never faced anyone quite like Batman.
Cap may be a tactical genius, but I very much doubt that he attended courses at Cambridge, the Sorbonne, and other European universities.
Also, let's take into account weaponry. Cap uses a shield. Batman uses so much more, from micro-serrated cutting edge Batarangs to gas pellets and aerosol sprays. Then there's the protection that the suit provides.
Cap is an excellent fighter, no doubt, as is Batman. But Batman has the edge; if nothing else, he cheats. Either way, it is something that I think we'd all enjoy seeing.

[saint sinner x]

On the subject of Batman vs Captain America, I'd have to go with Batman. Experience is in Batman's favor, to be honest. He's been studying since he was 14; along with his unconventional fighting style, he has been schooled by the ninja Kirigi in stealth and the ways of the shadow warrior. Add to this his experience at fighting super-powered criminal types; Cap would be no different. Super strength? Technique beats strength any day. Super speed? Proper timing renders this useless. Batman has fought people like Cap several times over (Ra's Al Guhl, anyone?), but Cap has never faced anyone quite like Batman.
Cap may be a tactical genius, but I very much doubt that he attended courses at Cambridge, the Sorbonne, and other European universities.
Also, let's take into account weaponry. Cap uses a shield. Batman uses so much more, from micro-serrated cutting edge Batarangs to gas pellets and aerosol sprays. Then there's the protection that the suit provides.
Cap is an excellent fighter, no doubt, as is Batman. But Batman has the edge; if nothing else, he cheats. Either way, it is something that I think we'd all enjoy seeing.

Exaclty, I don't think captain america comes close to beating batman i mean seriously speaking even if they just put them in a cage my money is on bruce wayne. He's just more skilled more experienced and way more of a dirty fighter and more bad ass you have to put characteristic into account. Captain america is a boy scout and bruce wayne is not. Batman could easily use psionic-blasters to make captain american not hear a danm thing then batman walks behind him very stealthy and BAM! he uses a pressure point attack. The batman is known for throwing a batarang at 100mph plus batman has alot more of long distance range than captain america does if captain america would throw his shield at batman the batman would easily dodge it he would throw an explosive powder captain america would probably wouldn't be able to see batman and BOOM batman would take him out. Now if they would fight in a cage the fight would probably go like this bruce wayne would wait until cap't attacks bruce would grap his arm break it kick him in his neck then punches cap't in the solar plex then he would sweep cap't and he would probaly jump over him skillfully then he would take him out with a pressure point attack. Batman was able to handle punisher and in my opinion punisher is more skillful then captain america in terms of fighting and defeating it's enemies. Just check out batman taking out a whole squad of commandos single handedly, captain america is not going to be a challenge for batman.

http://img109.imagevenue.com/initial/loc50/5d4_batops1.jpg

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:batman:

[The Question]

He does the impossible all of the time. He's still human, but he's the perfect human.

There's a difference between doing the improbable and doing the impossible. I have no problem with Batman doing the improbable. But once he starts doing things that are humanly impossible, then he has entered the realm of suoer humanity. That completely ruins teh apeal of the character.

If that implies superhuman, than yes. But I don't look it at that way at all; I just classify his incredible, incredibile "perfect human" abilities as near or just at "lower-level superhuman." But he's still human and like Achilles, Batman is capable of such awesome feats that go above and beyond the normal capabilities of a human.

That's bull****. If you have a character doing superhuman things, then say he is a superhuman. If he's not supposed to be superhuman, don't have im do superhuman things. It's really that simple. You can't train to become superhuman. And saying Batman did is just a lazy way of writing him. And remember, Achilles was a superhuman. He was a demi god who was nigh indestructible.

Batman may be human, but the things he has done even without any type of superhuman implication is beyond human capacity.

Which is bull**** writing. Like I've said, I have no problem with Batman pulling off things that are unlikely. But for him, a supposedly normal human being, to do things that are humanly impossible, is bad writing.


No, I'm not telling you that.

Sounded like it.

And CA is "superhuman?" I thought he was, like Batman, at the peak of perfect human. Strange.

First off, slightly above peak is superhuman. Second, Cap is slightly above peak in all areas. That is impossible to atain through training.

EDIT: Are you talking about human perfection? If so, it is clear that Batman also reached such a height (as evidenced by the DC Archives and in the various feats he has accomplished in stories.) And whether or not that can be accomplished through training is irrelevant because he exists in a realm where it is possible. It also helps that Batman is gifted with superior genetics. But just for argument's sake, one can also say that reaching such a height with some type of serum is impossible. Which is why possibilities and impossibilities should be thrown out of the discussion.

No, they shouldn't. Cap reached his level through the super soldier serum. It basically gave him super powers. Batman had no serum. For him to reach that level of physical prowess, which is superhuman, and still remain under the classification of a nromal human being with training is crappy writing.

In any case, I'm always skeptical about the superheroes who attain their powers by some artificial mechanism (i.e. radioactive spider, gamma rays, supersoldier serum, etc.)

Why?

Now, there was a whole CQC vs. Muay Thai debate up the page... I would say that's probably a bit pointless. From what I gather from conversations with my friends in the infantry, at least some of what soldiers learn for hand-to-hand is very similar to Muay Thai. I've seen my pal demonstrate a double collar tie ("Thai Clinch" as it's popularly called), among other things. The main difference would tend to be that the military trains to integrate weapons and the like into the mix, as well as bits and pieces from other martial arts... the point is to form a system that works in the situations you need to use it. Obviously a boxer isn't learning how to use a combat knife in combat, because he wants to box, not shank someone. Likewise, a soldier's not going to practice pure boxing or muay thai, because they have rules to minimize injury and they are by definition limited in their scope (and besides, he probably has a weapon on him or around him in combat, so fists are the last resort). Of course, Batman's developed something different that doesn't even exist in the real world. He's mixing the things the Thai Boxer does with a few of the things the soldier does, mixed with some things from Judoka.... but then he isn't going to be using military training for guns and knives because, guess what, he doesn't use them.. what he is throwing in, however, is wild rope swinging acrobatics, quick drawn batarangs, and a mess of other gagets mr. CQC has never heard of.

Very good points all around. All I'm saying is, CQC, or a variation of it, would work best for Batman. The weapons stuff would be different. But I'd think the hand to hand would be relatively the same. In terms of weapons, Batman generally uses flashbangs, tasers, and batarangs in combat. Flashbangs and tasers, CQC guys know all about. Special forces guys often carry flashbangs with them. The batarangs are a weapon of Bruce's invention. They're basically bat shaped shurikens with the return aspect of a boomerang. Of course, those would be used differently. But then, he's not generally using them in hand to hand combat. He tends to use them to take enemies out from afar.

On the subject of Batman vs Captain America, I'd have to go with Batman. Experience is in Batman's favor, to be honest. He's been studying since he was 14;

That's not experience. That's training. And alot of those years were spent learning to be a detective and a forensic scientist. Forgeting all of the bull**** of him learning 127 different fighting styles in 11 years, not all of that was spent on training. Cap is just as skilled a fighter, with war time experience. That's a whole different beast that beating up muggers.

along with his unconventional fighting style, he has been schooled by the ninja Kirigi in stealth and the ways of the shadow warrior.

Cap's quite stealthy aswell. He was a special agent for the military, remember? Alot of his missions were stealth related.

Add to this his experience at fighting super-powered criminal types; Cap would be no different.

Yes, he would. The only super types Batman has really beat either had an easily exploitable weakness or were really stupid. Or the story was poorly written. Cap is highly inteligent. Probably Batman's intelectual equal.

Super strength? Technique beats strength any day.

Not always. If someone is enormiously stronger than you and isn't retarded, you're probably going to lose. And Cap is a highly skilled hand to hand combatant in his own right.

Super speed? Proper timing renders this useless.

Not always. If the guy is fast enough, he'ss still out do you. And, like I Said, Cap is a highly skilled fighter even without his powers.

Batman has fought people like Cap several times over (Ra's Al Guhl, anyone?),

Ra's isn't like Cap at all. Ra's doesn't have any powers. Bane is much more comperable to Cap than Ra's. And even then, Bane hase proved to be a very close match for Batman.

but Cap has never faced anyone quite like Batman.

Yes, he has. The Red Skull, Batroc the Leaper, Crossbones, all are probably in Batman's league. And Cap has fought people who are superior to Batman. Taskmaster, the Armadillo, legions of Hydra Agents, the Super Adaptiod, Baron Blood, the list goes on.

Cap may be a tactical genius, but I very much doubt that he attended courses at Cambridge, the Sorbonne, and other European universities.

And why would atending preppy colleges better prepare you for a fight?

Also, let's take into account weaponry. Cap uses a shield.

And indestructible sheild. The thing has survived nuclear blasts and blows from Norse God Kings. Plus, he's also been known to carry knives, handguns, and grenades into combat situations.

Batman uses so much more, from micro-serrated cutting edge Batarangs to gas pellets and aerosol sprays. Then there's the protection that the suit provides.

Cap's suit is also highly protected. One time, Baron Blood (a nazi vampire) tried to bite him. Nearly broke his teath on Cap's protective suit.

Cap is an excellent fighter, no doubt, as is Batman. But Batman has the edge; if nothing else, he cheats.

So does Cap. Cap may seem like a good old fasioned boy scout. And in many respects, he is. But he doesn't fight stupid. He'll take ballshots, he'll break your arm, and if he feels the need he'll probably kill you.

Either way, it is something that I think we'd all enjoy seeing.

There, we can agree.

Exaclty, I don't think captain america comes close to beating batman i mean seriously speaking even if they just put them in a cage my money is on bruce wayne. He's just more skilled more experienced and way more of a dirty fighter and more bad ass you have to put characteristic into account.

How is he more skilled and has more experience? From what I understand, Cap has a few years of actual combat time on Bruce. And, a few of them were in war time. Alot more stressful than beating up muggers.

Captain america is a boy scout and bruce wayne is not.

So? Doesn't mean he's a wuss. Captain America kills people. Bruce Wayne doesn't. Cap doesn't like to kill, but he has many a time and will again if he's left without options.

Batman could easily use psionic-blasters to make captain american not hear a danm thing then batman walks behind him very stealthy and BAM! he uses a pressure point attack.

Cap was doing stuff like that in WWII without the aid of sonic weapons.

The batman is known for throwing a batarang at 100mph plus batman has alot more of long distance range than captain america does if captain america would throw his shield at batman the batman would easily dodge it he would throw an explosive powder captain america would probably wouldn't be able to see batman and BOOM batman would take him out.

Ummm, Cap can most definately throw his sheild at 100 MPH. Probably a bit faster. He's got strength, you know. And how the hell is Batman going to easily dodge a large metal disk moving at over 100 MPH?

Now if they would fight in a cage the fight would probably go like this bruce wayne would wait until cap't attacks bruce would grap his arm break it kick him in his neck then punches cap't in the solar plex then he would sweep cap't and he would probaly jump over him skillfully then he would take him out with a pressure point attack.

And Cap could do the same damned thing to Bruce. Cap is a highly skilled hand to hand combatant, and is Bruce's physical superior.

Batman was able to handle punisher and in my opinion punisher is more skillful then captain america in terms of fighting and defeating it's enemies.

How so? They're both military men. The Punisher was just a marine. Cap was a special agent for the defense department in WWII. He was taking guys out Sam Fisher style before Frank Catsle was even born.

Just check out batman taking out a whole squad of commandos single handedly, captain america is not going to be a challenge for batman.

Cap's taken on entire squads of soldiers before. And he's got super powers.

[Tin_Man]

That's not experience. That's training. And alot of those years were spent learning to be a detective and a forensic scientist. Forgeting all of the bull**** of him learning 127 different fighting styles in 11 years, not all of that was spent on training. Cap is just as skilled a fighter, with war time experience. That's a whole different beast that beating up muggers


Batman has hands-on training. Meaning that as he studied his martial arts, he literally had legions of members of those particular dojos trying to kill/hurt him. It wasn't a lame 13-year-old karate match; this was life or death. Therefore, his training does equal experience.
Cap fought in war. Combat in war consists mainly of guns, not hand to hand. That's not to say hand-to-hand doesn't occur, but you gain much more of it fighting ninjas than you do Nazis.
Oh, and learning all 127 major styles of combat isn't bull****. It's canon. It's fact. Accept it.


Cap's quite stealthy aswell. He was a special agent for the military, remember? Alot of his missions were stealth related.

Military stealth is inferior to that of those who have been practicing it, perfecting it, for centuries, as the Kirigi have done.



Yes, he would. The only super types Batman has really beat either had an easily exploitable weakness or were really stupid. Or the story was poorly written. Cap is highly inteligent. Probably Batman's intelectual equal.

No, Cap is not Batman's intellectual equal, and I will explain that when i address the schools.
Also, claiming that a story is poorly written is a sad cop-out; if the debate consists heavily of in-story points, stick to in-story points. Saying that Batman won because the story was poorly written is saying that you have no other way to argue the point.


Not always. If someone is enormiously stronger than you and isn't retarded, you're probably going to lose. And Cap is a highly skilled hand to hand combatant in his own right.

Agreed, there are exceptions to the rule, and Cap is indeed highly skilled. He just isn't as skilled at Batman. Stronger? Yes. Faster? Most likely. But not as skilled.


Not always. If the guy is fast enough, he'ss still out do you. And, like I Said, Cap is a highly skilled fighter even without his powers.

Again, there are exceptions to the rule. I admit that.


Ra's isn't like Cap at all. Ra's doesn't have any powers. Bane is much more comperable to Cap than Ra's. And even then, Bane hase proved to be a very close match for Batman.

I disagree; Ra's is a genius. He is the only man that can be called Batman's intellectual equal; tactics, strategy, etc. Ra's has experience that surpasses Batman and Cap combined; he is centuries old, and master of several different killing arts.
Bane is not Batman's equal. Not by a long shot. He was able to snap Batman's back only after Batman went weeks with little sleep, working relentlessly to capture the escaped inmates of Arkham.
Sure, Bane studied the strategems of military conquerors throughout history, but that hardly makes him an equal. In recent fights between the two, Batman hasn't even run out of breath.


Yes, he has. The Red Skull, Batroc the Leaper, Crossbones, all are probably in Batman's league. And Cap has fought people who are superior to Batman. Taskmaster, the Armadillo, legions of Hydra Agents, the Super Adaptiod, Baron Blood, the list goes on.

Nobody in the Marvel Universe is quite like Batman; the only person who comes close is Captain America himself.


And why would atending preppy colleges better prepare you for a fight?


My point was not about fighting itself; I was talking education in tactics and strategy. Schools such as Cambridge have an excellent curriculum regarding strategy. Batman went to not one, not two, but several of these schools.


And indestructible sheild. The thing has survived nuclear blasts and blows from Norse God Kings. Plus, he's also been known to carry knives, handguns, and grenades into combat situations

Cap has been known to carry such weapons; that doesn't mean he gets them by default when facing Batman. But let's assume for a moment that he does.
The Batsuit: "Pound for pound, body armor pales in comparison. Designed for maximum utility, the Dark Knight's costume is both fire-retardant and chemical-resistant, with triple-weave Kevlar positioned primarily around the torso's Bat-Symbol, an intentional and well-protected target."
-Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight
Guns would bounce off. Knives would be no problem, assuming they could get past Batman's counterattacks. Grenades could be a problem, but Batman carries them as well. And let's not forget that grapnels are a nice way to escape a grenades blast radius in a hurry. Of course, Batman could easily chuck one of his own as he zips to safety.


Cap's suit is also highly protected. One time, Baron Blood (a nazi vampire) tried to bite him. Nearly broke his teath on Cap's protective suit.

Which is to be expected, naturally. Of course, Batman has used his wall-penetrating grapnel as a weapon before, and seeing as it has a micro-diamond drill head, it's quite possible that it can penetrate Steve's own suit. The shield would be a different story, however.


So does Cap. Cap may seem like a good old fasioned boy scout. And in many respects, he is. But he doesn't fight stupid. He'll take ballshots, he'll break your arm, and if he feels the need he'll probably kill you.

I wasn't referring to just fighting techniques; Cap is no boy scout, as you said, and will dish out the nutshots and eyejabs. I was referring to gadgets and such;
"Batman's miniaturized chemical arsenal includes IR paint markers, foaming explosive gels, super-cooled electronic device freezers, and Ver-Sed (quick-acting kmock-out and temporary amnesiac) sprays"
"Various gas deterrents are arrayed in pouches throughout Batman's Utility Belt. Flash/Bang charges, smoke bombs, tear and regurgitant gases are deployed by breaking hardened-gelatin spheroid capsules."
-Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight
Also, there are more than just cutting batarangs (which sport edges capable of sheering metal, by the way); there is also hard-impact )Rockwell c-60 hardness edge).


Ummm, Cap can most definately throw his sheild at 100 MPH. Probably a bit faster. He's got strength, you know. And how the hell is Batman going to easily dodge a large metal disk moving at over 100 MPH?

Body language. Batman can read body language. If they are a distance from one another (which would be the case if Cap was going to throw his shield at all), Batman would be able to avoid the discus by moving before it was thrown at all. Which is why this would be a close-quarters thing; it would have to be, because Cap would be able to do the same thing when Batman wound up for a Batarange throw. Both weapons are designed for close-combat though, so that would make it all the more interesting.


There, we can agree.


Indeed. In a battle between Captain America and Batman, the real winners are us, the spectators.
I am enjoying this debate, and I hope you are as well.



Just check out batman taking out a whole squad of commandos single handedly, captain america is not going to be a challenge for batman.


Here's where I have to disagree with you. Cap is by no means a pushover; he is a tough customer. While I believe Batman would emerge the victor, it wouldn't exactly be a walk in the park; it would be a hard-fought battle, very close. Both men are skilled and driven. Both are smart. And both are very, very dangerous.

[The Question]

Batman has hands-on training. Meaning that as he studied his martial arts, he literally had legions of members of those particular dojos trying to kill/hurt him. It wasn't a lame 13-year-old karate match; this was life or death. Therefore, his training does equal experience.

I highly doubt that, as a thirteen year old, he had hundreds of ninjas atacking him at once.

Cap fought in war. Combat in war consists mainly of guns, not hand to hand. That's not to say hand-to-hand doesn't occur, but you gain much more of it fighting ninjas than you do Nazis.

Maybe. But then, soldiers are trained to fight well. And Cap's wartime experience wasn't limited to the battlefeilds. He was doing alot of special operations stuff.

Oh, and learning all 127 major styles of combat isn't bull****. It's canon. It's fact. Accept it.

It may be cannon, but it's still bull****.

Military stealth is inferior to that of those who have been practicing it, perfecting it, for centuries, as the Kirigi have done.

How can military stealth be "inferior?" Stealth is stealth. The same techniques are used by all people trying to be stealthy.

No, Cap is not Batman's intellectual equal, and I will explain that when i address the schools.

What does schooling have to do with combat?

Also, claiming that a story is poorly written is a sad cop-out; if the debate consists heavily of in-story points, stick to in-story points. Saying that Batman won because the story was poorly written is saying that you have no other way to argue the point.

No, it's saying that the story is poorly written. If Batman beats someone who all logic dictates should kick Batman's ass, it is a poorly written story. The A.M.A.Z.O. fight was poorly written. Batman taking down four white martians was poorly written if you think about it.

Agreed, there are exceptions to the rule, and Cap is indeed highly skilled. He just isn't as skilled at Batman. Stronger? Yes. Faster? Most likely. But not as skilled.

Yes, he is. Knowing a **** load of unnecessairy moves doesn't make you skilled. It means you know a **** load of unnecessairy moves. Skill is how you use those moves and how well you use them. Cap is as skilled a combatant as Batman.

I disagree; Ra's is a genius. He is the only man that can be called Batman's intellectual equal; tactics, strategy, etc. Ra's has experience that surpasses Batman and Cap combined; he is centuries old, and master of several different killing arts.

Yeah. But that doesn't make him comperable to Cap. Ra's isn't like Cap at all. He's ****ing smart, but he has no superhuman abilities.

Bane is not Batman's equal. Not by a long shot. He was able to snap Batman's back only after Batman went weeks with little sleep, working relentlessly to capture the escaped inmates of Arkham.
Sure, Bane studied the strategems of military conquerors throughout history, but that hardly makes him an equal. In recent fights between the two, Batman hasn't even run out of breath.

Bane is close to Batman's equal, I think. The problem is that DC has sort of degraded Bane into a thug who's much less inteligent than he used to be.

Nobody in the Marvel Universe is quite like Batman; the only person who comes close is Captain America himself.

No. The Red Skull is definately on Batman's level. And I'd bet that Batroc is close. Taskmaster, Baron Blood, Armadillo, and The Super Adaptoid all surpass him, I think.

My point was not about fighting itself; I was talking education in tactics and strategy. Schools such as Cambridge have an excellent curriculum regarding strategy. Batman went to not one, not two, but several of these schools.

And Cap learned stratigy from the military. I'm fairly certain the military teaches stratigy better than Cambridge.

Cap has been known to carry such weapons; that doesn't mean he gets them by default when facing Batman. But let's assume for a moment that he does.
The Batsuit: "Pound for pound, body armor pales in comparison. Designed for maximum utility, the Dark Knight's costume is both fire-retardant and chemical-resistant, with triple-weave Kevlar positioned primarily around the torso's Bat-Symbol, an intentional and well-protected target."
-Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight
Guns would bounce off.

No, they wouldn't. Bullets don't bounce off of kevlar. They get stuck in the fabric, shatter against the armor plate, and knock you flat on your ass if you're too close.

Knives would be no problem, assuming they could get past Batman's counterattacks. Grenades could be a problem, but Batman carries them as well. And let's not forget that grapnels are a nice way to escape a grenades blast radius in a hurry. Of course, Batman could easily chuck one of his own as he zips to safety.

Naturally.

Which is to be expected, naturally. Of course, Batman has used his wall-penetrating grapnel as a weapon before, and seeing as it has a micro-diamond drill head, it's quite possible that it can penetrate Steve's own suit. The shield would be a different story, however.

Yes, it would.

I wasn't referring to just fighting techniques; Cap is no boy scout, as you said, and will dish out the nutshots and eyejabs. I was referring to gadgets and such;
"Batman's miniaturized chemical arsenal includes IR paint markers, foaming explosive gels, super-cooled electronic device freezers, and Ver-Sed (quick-acting kmock-out and temporary amnesiac) sprays"
"Various gas deterrents are arrayed in pouches throughout Batman's Utility Belt. Flash/Bang charges, smoke bombs, tear and regurgitant gases are deployed by breaking hardened-gelatin spheroid capsules."
-Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight
Also, there are more than just cutting batarangs (which sport edges capable of sheering metal, by the way); there is also hard-impact )Rockwell c-60 hardness edge).

Oh, I understand that Batman has quite an arsenal. But, the batarangs wouldn't do **** againts Cap's sheild. All that Cap would really have to worry about is the gas weapons. And I'm failry certain he has a very impressive lung capacity.

Body language. Batman can read body language.

Sure he can. But not like Batgirl or Taskmaster can. I'd think that with his combat experiance, Cap can read body language just as well.

If they are a distance from one another (which would be the case if Cap was going to throw his shield at all), Batman would be able to avoid the discus by moving before it was thrown at all.

And Cap has good enough reflexes to stop throwing and change what he's aiming for. Plus, his sheild bounces like hell, so he won't usually aim for his target. He'll throw the sheild off walls and have it ricochet to his target. And, like I said, I'm fairly certain Cap can read body language aswell.

Which is why this would be a close-quarters thing; it would have to be, because Cap would be able to do the same thing when Batman wound up for a Batarange throw. Both weapons are designed for close-combat though, so that would make it all the more interesting.

And, in close quarters, Cap takes it. He's faster, stronger, has better reflexes, and he doesn't get fatigued. Plus, even without his powers, he's just as good a hand to hand combatant as Bruce.

[Tin_Man]

I highly doubt that, as a thirteen year old, he had hundreds of ninjas atacking him at once.

My apologies; I was not clear. I meant that the ninjas attacking Bruce is not like a karate match between thirteen-year-olds. He was most certainly not fighting ninjas at the age of 13, and I apologize again for the miscommunication.


Maybe. But then, soldiers are trained to fight well. And Cap's wartime experience wasn't limited to the battlefeilds. He was doing alot of special operations stuff.

While that is true, the bulk of Batman's focus in combat has been on hand-to-hand. Cap's experience has been split between the two.


It may be cannon, but it's still bull****.

That's like saying it's bull**** that Superman has all of his powers, or that Captain America was frozen. It may be unrealistic, but in fiction, it becomes reality.


How can military stealth be "inferior?" Stealth is stealth. The same techniques are used by all people trying to be stealthy.

There are different degrees of stealth. There is military stealth, which is good in its own right. Then there is Ninja stealth, which is, essentially, invisibility. No noise, no sound.


What does schooling have to do with combat?

What I meant was I will address that particular point when I elaborate on the Euro schools. Which I did.


No, it's saying that the story is poorly written. If Batman beats someone who all logic dictates should kick Batman's ass, it is a poorly written story. The A.M.A.Z.O. fight was poorly written. Batman taking down four white martians was poorly written if you think about it.

Indeed, it may have been poorly written. Nevertheless, it happened, and you cannot simply ignore it because you dislike it.


Yes, he is. Knowing a **** load of unnecessairy moves doesn't make you skilled. It means you know a **** load of unnecessairy moves. Skill is how you use those moves and how well you use them. Cap is as skilled a combatant as Batman.

Unnecessary? Batman has used these moves to defeat people ranging from thugs to immortal martial arts masters to steroid-enhanced muscle-heads. Plenty of those martial arts moves are designed to turn an opponent's strength against them, which is what Batman has done, and will continue to do.


Yeah. But that doesn't make him comperable to Cap. Ra's isn't like Cap at all. He's ****ing smart, but he has no superhuman abilities.

Well, it depends on your definition of superhuman. Ra's has lived for hundreds of years, which is above and beyond humans. Granted, it's due to an outside source (Lazarus Pit), but let's not forget that Steve's own superhuman status came about from technology (Super Soldier Serum). So technically, Ra's is superhuman.
The original point was to focus on an opponent who was well-versed in tactics and strategies; in that area, Ra's is quite comparable to Cap.


Bane is close to Batman's equal, I think. The problem is that DC has sort of degraded Bane into a thug who's much less inteligent than he used to be.

If DC had kept him above the thug-level, i would agree that he could be considered Batman's equal. But now? Bane is nothing.


No. The Red Skull is definately on Batman's level. And I'd bet that Batroc is close. Taskmaster, Baron Blood, Armadillo, and The Super Adaptoid all surpass him, I think.


I'll admit, I don't know much about the foes of Captain America. Red Skull is the one I am most familiar with, and even then, my knowledge is lacking. Care to give me a crash course in what puts him on Batman's level?


And Cap learned stratigy from the military. I'm fairly certain the military teaches stratigy better than Cambridge.[/quote]

No, the military of the mid-1900s taught Cap strategy. Schools like Cambridge in the modern era teach much more advanced strategy, as it is a later point in time.


No, they wouldn't. Bullets don't bounce off of kevlar. They get stuck in the fabric, shatter against the armor plate, and knock you flat on your ass if you're too close.

Triple-weave Kevlar. This isn't riot police gear; this is far more advanced and durable. Also, if Batman and Cap were close enough where a bullet would knock Batman down, guns wouldn't even be an issue. It would be 95% fists if they were that close to one another.


Oh, I understand that Batman has quite an arsenal. But, the batarangs wouldn't do **** againts Cap's sheild. All that Cap would really have to worry about is the gas weapons. And I'm failry certain he has a very impressive lung capacity.


Batman also uses Batarangs in close-range combat, not to mention the fact that he can throw the smaller-sized ones like shurkins; one crooked between each finger. I would also think that Cap would lose his shield at some point in the fight.


And Cap has good enough reflexes to stop throwing and change what he's aiming for. Plus, his sheild bounces like hell, so he won't usually aim for his target. He'll throw the sheild off walls and have it ricochet to his target. And, like I said, I'm fairly certain Cap can read body language aswell.[/quote]

Once he is without the shield, he's open for the Batarang attacks, which can disable rather quickly. It's all a question of what gets where first: the shield to Batman via ricocheting off of multiple objects, or the straight line Batarangs to Cap. Also, the shield would hardly move at 100 KPH if it ricochets off of several objects; the shield may be indestructable, but concrete isn't. Any indestructable object moving at 100 KPH at a concrete pillar will sever the pillar instead ricocheting in the desired direction.


And, in close quarters, Cap takes it. He's faster, stronger, has better reflexes, and he doesn't get fatigued. Plus, even without his powers, he's just as good a hand to hand combatant as Bruce.

That's debatable. Batman is fast himself, and can take more than a few hits. This is where body language and fighting style come in; Cap attacks first, Batman sees it coming, and counters with something that'll take the good Captain by surprise. Cap throws the punch, but Batman chucks a gass pellet in Cap's face, and takes the punch. Who's the worse off? That's one of Batman's defining attributes, especially when he fights a being more powerful than him: he'll take a hit, but it will cost the aggressor quite a bit. Look at how he handled Darkseid in the Supergirl arc; he had no chance of physically overpowering someone like Darkseid, yet he still won; Darkseid hit him, and Batman hit him with a far more effective weapon: the safety of Darkseid's planet. Batman would do something similar to Cap; hence, the gas pellet.
While one gas pellet is not enough to stop someone like Cap, one punch is hardly enough to stop Batman. This will be one hell of a fight, as I stated earlier; both will get critical shots in, and the winner will just barely walk away.

[The Question]

That's like saying it's bull**** that Superman has all of his powers, or that Captain America was frozen. It may be unrealistic, but in fiction, it becomes reality.

No, it's not like that. But I'm not going to get into that here. Different arguement.

There are different degrees of stealth. There is military stealth, which is good in its own right. Then there is Ninja stealth, which is, essentially, invisibility. No noise, no sound.

I doubt ninjas are completely soundless. And really, how do you know the military aren;t that good. Their proffesionals. They're probably usuing the same tactics the ninjas have been using for centuries.

Indeed, it may have been poorly written. Nevertheless, it happened, and you cannot simply ignore it because you dislike it.

I'm not ignoring them. I'm simply stating that they were poorly written.

Unnecessary? Batman has used these moves to defeat people ranging from thugs to immortal martial arts masters to steroid-enhanced muscle-heads. Plenty of those martial arts moves are designed to turn an opponent's strength against them, which is what Batman has done, and will continue to do.

Yes, but learning 127 different fighting styles is unnecessairy.

Well, it depends on your definition of superhuman. Ra's has lived for hundreds of years, which is above and beyond humans. Granted, it's due to an outside source (Lazarus Pit), but let's not forget that Steve's own superhuman status came about from technology (Super Soldier Serum). So technically, Ra's is superhuman.

But he;s not superhuman like Cap is.

The original point was to focus on an opponent who was well-versed in tactics and strategies; in that area, Ra's is quite comparable to Cap.

Oh. Well, there I agree.

If DC had kept him above the thug-level, i would agree that he could be considered Batman's equal. But now? Bane is nothing.

Which I, personally, have problems with. But that's another thing that has little to do with this conversation.

I'll admit, I don't know much about the foes of Captain America. Red Skull is the one I am most familiar with, and even then, my knowledge is lacking. Care to give me a crash course in what puts him on Batman's level?

The Red Skull's story:

Born on the streets of Germany, Johann Schmidt was homeless from a young age. To survive, he quickly learned to be a theif and criminal. Eventually, in his late teens, he landed a job as a bellboy in a hotel. There, he met a young politician named Adolf Hitler. Hitler, impressed by the boy's intelect and fighting skills, took him in and made him a member of his part. As Hitler gained more power, Johann gained more experience as a leg breaker. Eventually, he began receiving training from the best the German military had to offer. By the time the war started, Johann was Nazi Party's top assasin and special operative, code named: The Red Skull. While not Captain America's physical equal, The Red Skull's fighting prowess, intelect, willingness to kill innocents, and comand of many German soldiers made him a very formidable oponent for Captain America. Eventually, The Red Skull placed his mind in a clone body of Captain America, making him Cap's physical equal aswell as his intelectual equal.

No, the military of the mid-1900s taught Cap strategy. Schools like Cambridge in the modern era teach much more advanced strategy, as it is a later point in time.

How can you have more advanced tactics? Feild tactics only change with technology. Although the weapons have improved, the weapons of today are still the same kinds of weapons they had in WWII. Tanks, fighter planes, machine guns, missiles, all of that. And, hand to hand stratigy never changes. Also, the military are pros. Cambridge is just a college in Europe. While it's courses are probably quite good, I'm sure the military is much more in depth.

Triple-weave Kevlar. This isn't riot police gear; this is far more advanced and durable. Also, if Batman and Cap were close enough where a bullet would knock Batman down, guns wouldn't even be an issue. It would be 95% fists if they were that close to one another.

Very true.

Batman also uses Batarangs in close-range combat, not to mention the fact that he can throw the smaller-sized ones like shurkins; one crooked between each finger. I would also think that Cap would lose his shield at some point in the fight.

If it's close quarters? Not very likely.

Once he is without the shield, he's open for the Batarang attacks, which can disable rather quickly.

And he can dodge. Remember, Cap's faster with better reflexes than Batman.

It's all a question of what gets where first: the shield to Batman via ricocheting off of multiple objects, or the straight line Batarangs to Cap. Also, the shield would hardly move at 100 KPH if it ricochets off of several objects; the shield may be indestructable, but concrete isn't. Any indestructable object moving at 100 KPH at a concrete pillar will sever the pillar instead ricocheting in the desired direction.

Fair points. I doubt Cap would throw the sheild that hard if he was doing the ricochet thing.


That's debatable. Batman is fast himself, and can take more than a few hits. This is where body language and fighting style come in; Cap attacks first, Batman sees it coming, and counters with something that'll take the good Captain by surprise.

The thing is, Batman isn;t Batgirl or Taskmaster. He reads body language, but as well as any highly skilled fighter. I bet Cap can read body language just as well.

Cap throws the punch, but Batman chucks a gass pellet in Cap's face, and takes the punch.

'Course, Cap can always grab the pellet out of Batman's hand.

Who's the worse off? That's one of Batman's defining attributes, especially when he fights a being more powerful than him: he'll take a hit, but it will cost the aggressor quite a bit. Look at how he handled Darkseid in the Supergirl arc; he had no chance of physically overpowering someone like Darkseid, yet he still won; Darkseid hit him, and Batman hit him with a far more effective weapon: the safety of Darkseid's planet. Batman would do something similar to Cap; hence, the gas pellet.
While one gas pellet is not enough to stop someone like Cap, one punch is hardly enough to stop Batman. This will be one hell of a fight, as I stated earlier; both will get critical shots in, and the winner will just barely walk away.

I think the winner will be Cap. If the fight's close quarters, there's no contest. Cap's as good a fighter and a physical superior.

[The Flash!]

The Question.

http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/images/notworthy.gifhttp://www.sociopranos.com/forums/images/notworthy.gifhttp://www.sociopranos.com/forums/images/notworthy.gifhttp://www.sociopranos.com/forums/images/notworthy.gifhttp://www.sociopranos.com/forums/images/notworthy.gifhttp://www.sociopranos.com/forums/images/notworthy.gifhttp://www.sociopranos.com/forums/images/notworthy.gif

[TheGrayGhost]

No, it's not like that. But I'm not going to get into that here. Different arguement.

It is like that, and you are taking the easy way out by not the addressing the issue. Like I said earlier, whether or not you choose to believe Batman learned all 127 major styles of combat (or anything else about the Batman mythos for that matter) is up to you, but there's no denying that it's canon.


I'm not ignoring them. I'm simply stating that they were poorly written.


You're not ignoring them, but you are acknowledging them in a way which voids the events that happened within those given stories.

Yes, but learning 127 different fighting styles is unnecessairy.

Unnecessary or not, he did learn them.

There's a difference between doing the improbable and doing the impossible.

Yes, there is a distinction between the two.

I have no problem with Batman doing the improbable. But once he starts doing things that are humanly impossible, then he has entered the realm of suoer humanity.

His whole life is a human impossibility. He does the humanly impossible all of the time. Not the improbable, the impossible.

What you are doing is attributing our own limited capabilities to the realm of fiction. Which is illogical; Batman wouldn't be able to do any of things he does if he was held down by the measure of our own limited capabilites.

That's bull****. If you have a character doing superhuman things, then say he is a superhuman. If he's not supposed to be superhuman, don't have im do superhuman things. It's really that simple. You can't train to become superhuman. And saying Batman did is just a lazy way of writing him. And remember, Achilles was a superhuman. He was a demi god who was nigh indestructible.

I'll admit that I sound a little counter-intuitive, so I'll say this:

Coupled with superior human genes, Batman has been able to hone his body and mind to the pinnacles of human perfection. He has superior intellect, fighting prowess, reflexes, speed, endurance, stamina, etc. These attributes have been pushed to the aforementioned pinnacles of human perfection. And he continues to improve upon these skills making them greater and greater.

Accordingly, he is a human gifted with abilites comparable to those of lower-level superhumans.


That completely ruins teh apeal of the character.


Says you. I for one like the idea of a human being gifted with both the indomitable human spirit and the physical and mental abilities to uphold it. This doesn't mean he's superhuman or meta-human at all.


No, they shouldn't. Cap reached his level through the super soldier serum.


I was just abiding by your own view of the limitations of humans:

Even if you somehow managed to create a supersoldier serum, it wouldn't be able to get you past the peak of human abilities; you can't go beyond the peak of human capacity, you can only meet it. If the former were possible, it would cause all the basic laws of our world to crumble. But that's just it, it's not our world. It's fiction.

[TheGrayGhost]

The Question.

http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/images/notworthy.gifhttp://www.sociopranos.com/forums/images/notworthy.gifhttp://www.sociopranos.com/forums/images/notworthy.gifhttp://www.sociopranos.com/forums/images/notworthy.gifhttp://www.sociopranos.com/forums/images/notworthy.gifhttp://www.sociopranos.com/forums/images/notworthy.gifhttp://www.sociopranos.com/forums/images/notworthy.gif

You can't be serious. His whole argument is flawed.

[The Flash!]

You can't be serious. His whole argument is flawed.

Personally? I think it's the other way around....

[TheGrayGhost]

Personally? I think it's the other way around....

How? Tin_Man and I are only stating what is fact. The Question is denying that fact. Our arguments are stronger.

[The Question]

It is like that, and you are taking the easy way out by not the addressing the issue. Like I said earlier, whether or not you choose to believe Batman learned all 127 major styles of combat (or anything else about the Batman mythos for that matter) is up to you, but there's no denying that it's canon.

And I wasn't. I'm simply saying taht it's complete and utter bull****.

You're not ignoring them, but you are acknowledging them in a way which voids the events that happened within those given stories.

I suppose.

Unnecessary or not, he did learn them.

Never said he didn't. I just said it was bull****.

His whole life is a human impossibility. He does the humanly impossible all of the time. Not the improbable, the impossible.

Which he should not be doing if he is supposed to be nothing more than a human with training.

What you are doing is attributing our own limited capabilities to the realm of fiction. Which is illogical; Batman wouldn't be able to do any of things he does if he was held down by the measure of our own limited capabilites.

That's bull. Batman is supposed to be a human being. If you have a character do what is humanly impossible, the character ios a super human. And yet Batman is supposed to be a human being with training. Thus, he should be written that way.

I'll admit that I sound a little counter-intuitive, so I'll say this:

Coupled with superior human genes, Batman has been able to hone his body and mind to the pinnacles of human perfection. He has superior intellect, fighting prowess, reflexes, speed, endurance, stamina, etc. These attributes have been pushed to the aforementioned pinnacles of human perfection. And he continues to improve upon these skills making them greater and greater.

Accordingly, he is a human gifted with abilites comparable to those of lower-level superhumans.

Which doesn't make sense. You can't train to become a superhuman. If you want him to be a human being, write him that way. If you want him to be written as a superhuman, admit he's a superhuman. But don't write him as one and call him the other.

Says you. I for one like the idea of a human being gifted with both the indomitable human spirit and the physical and mental abilities to uphold it. This doesn't mean he's superhuman or meta-human at all.

I have nothing against that either. What I don't like is Batman being written as a superhuman. And that's how he's written. And that, my friend, is bull**** writing.

I was just abiding by your own view of the limitations of humans:

Even if you somehow managed to create a supersoldier serum, it wouldn't be able to get you past the peak of human abilities; you can't go beyond the peak of human capacity, you can only meet it. If the former were possible, it would cause all the basic laws of our world to crumble. But that's just it, it's not our world. It's fiction.

That's completely different. Cap has super powers. The serum gave him super powers. That was the very point of the serum. It's not like he trained to be super. That would be bull. Batman is supposed to be a human being. Not a meta. And yet they write him preforming superhuman feats. That is, survey says:



Lazy writing.

How? Tin_Man and I are only stating what is fact. The Question is denying that fact.

I'm not denying any facts. I'm simply stating that said facts are bull****.

[The Flash!]

How? Tin_Man and I are only stating what is fact. The Question is denying that fact. Our arguments are stronger.

The Question is great at debating these kind of things, he simply does his homework. :o Seriously, he's doing that now.



Not that I have anything against anyone that is. :)

[TheGrayGhost]

Never said he didn't. I just said it was bull****.

Fine.


That's bull. Batman is supposed to be a human being. If you have a character do what is humanly impossible, the character ios a super human. And yet Batman is supposed to be a human being with training. Thus, he should be written that way.


If he's written that way, he can't do all of the following things:

Use his grapple from roof top to roof top. The arms of humans cannot handle such tension and velocity.
Fight criminals with guns and/or avoid their bullets.
Fight superpowered foes such as Bane, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, and even Ra's Al Ghul.
Survive impossible odds against numerous opponents each night.
Jump tall heights.
Maintain a secret identity.
Use Batarangs effectively enough from distances.And the list could go on and on.

Which doesn't make sense. You can't train to become a superhuman. If you want him to be a human being, write him that way. If you want him to be written as a superhuman, admit he's a superhuman. But don't write him as one and call him the other.

No, but you can hone your mind and body to the pinnacles of human perfection. I don't you think understand how bold such a height is; shouldn't the word "perfection" explain it all? That's a powerful word. In any case, I'm not saying he can lift a car or run super fast speeds. Those types of strengths are superhuman.

I have nothing against that either. What I don't like is Batman being written as a superhuman. And that's how he's written. And that, my friend, is bull**** writing.

I don't follow comics much; I'm more of the follower of the DCAU Batman, particularly the JL/JLU Batman. That interpretation is the pillar for my argument, so I can't speak much for the comics.

That's completely different. Cap has super powers. The serum gave him super powers. That was the very point of the serum. It's not like he trained to be super. That would be bull. Batman is supposed to be a human being. Not a meta. And yet they write him preforming superhuman feats.

:confused:

I was simpy saying that even with some sort of supersoldier serum, you can only meet the peak of human capacity, not exceed it. What I was trying to do is take your own viewpoint on the limitations of humans and extend it to Captain America (because, afterall, he is human.)

I'm not denying any facts. I'm simply stating that said facts are bull****.

So you're like Stephen Colbert.

In the end, all I am saying is that Batman is the model of human perfection. Perfection. And whether or not that implies superhuman is totally up to you. I don't think it does, but I think that "human perfection" is in a whole other class than just "human."

[TheGrayGhost]

The Question is great at debating these kind of things, he simply does his homework. :o Seriously, he's doing that now.

All I've seen so far is mere conjecture by his part. Which is totally fine by me.

[The Question]

If he's written that way, he can't do all of the following things:

Use his grapple from roof top to roof top. The arms of humans cannot handle such tension and velocity.

So? Does he need to? Why not just use the grappling gun to climb up buildings, help slow his descent off of roofs, and ocasionally use it to swing across large gaps.

Fight criminals with guns and/or avoid their bullets.

Sure he could. The trick isn't to dodge the bullets (which can;t be done), but to move around enough so they don't get a clear shot. A moving target wearing all black in the dark at night is going to be very difficult to hit. Besides, he could just drop a flashbang to completely obscure their vision.

Fight superpowered foes such as Bane, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, and even Ra's Al Ghul.

I could see Bane being a real problem because of his strength. But Mr. Freeze, all he'd have to do is avoid his blasts. Poison Ivy's powers don't give her any combat advantages. And Ra's doesn't have any powers, besides the fact that you can't kill him.

Survive impossible odds against numerous opponents each night.

Well, if they have him taking on large groups of thugs hand to hand, of course. But really, if there's a large croud, drop flashbangs to disorient them and use a taser weapon of some sort.

Jump tall heights.

Like I said, he could use the grappling gun to slow his descent.

Maintain a secret identity.

Why not? Smart criminals can go years, sometimes even decades without being caught. Why not a vigilante?

Use Batarangs effectively enough from distances.

Depends on what you mean by distance. 200 feet? Of course it would be impossible. But 20 to 30? I don;t see why not.

No, but you can hone your mind and body to the pinnacles of human perfection.

Of course.

I don't you think understand how bold such a height is; shouldn't the word "perfection" explain it all? That's a powerful word.

Way I see it, Batman would have a fighter's build. Very striong, but not bulky. Probably can bench 300-400 pounds max. Much more concentraiting on speed and reflexes.

In any case, I'm not saying he can lift a car or run super fast speeds. Those types of strengths are superhuman.

So is benching 725 pounds while being a world class gymnest. Just not as extreme an example of super humanity.

:confused:

I was simpy saying that even with some sort of supersoldier serum, you can only meet the peak of human capacity, not exceed it.

Yes, you can. Because it's a Super Soldier serum. Emphasis on the word super. It makes the peson who takes it super. Why would the military spend millions on a formula that can only make you what someone could become with enough training?

What I was trying to do is take your own viewpoint on the limitations of humans and extend it to Captain America (because, afterall, he is human.)

No. He's superhuman. Just a low level one.

So you're like Stephen Colbert.

Wow. I'm flattered.

In the end, all I am saying is that Batman is the model of human perfection. Perfection. And whether or not that implies superhuman is totally up to you. I don't think it does, but I think that "human perfection" is in a whole other class than just "human."

The thing is, Batman isn't written as being the pinnacle of human perfection. He is, more often than not these days, written to preform superhuman feats. They just don;t admit that said feats are superhuman.

[saint sinner x]

I really don't understand what is your problem "the question" seriously speaking i think your discriminating batman just because he's human. First of all captain america is not super human he is slightly above human perfection i'll name you some Super Humans let's start with the alphabets ok like that it'll be more easier for you to understand what is a super human:
A= Aquaman
B= Bane
C= Colossus
D= Deadpool
E= Elixir
F= Flash
G= Green lantern
H= Hawkman
I= Iceman
J= Juggernaut
L= LionHeart
M= Magneto
N= NorthStar
O= Outlaw
P= Proffesor X
Q= Quicksilver
R= Rouge
S= Superman
T= Thor (Thor Odinson)
U= Ultraman
V= Vanguard
W= Wolverine
X= X-man

Today is your lucky day but one day i am going to find out a superhuman that starts with the letter Y and Z. My point is a superhuman is someone who is human that can do the super amazing feats, Captain america doesn't do any SUPERHUMAN feats sorry bro it's the truth deal with it get over it. Your side of the arguement is very dull. Here is my analogy of what your argueing about Your pretty much saying that batman is human therefor he shouldn't be able to defeat people who are stronger and more powerful then him right? You make me laugh that's like saying The hulk can defeat everybody because he has unlimited strength. When you match up silver surfer agaisnt the hulk well sorry hulk fans the surfer wins by default he has cosmic powers and cosmic powers would pretty much beat anyone. Aoch i sounded like "the question" On that last statement remind me not to do that again. Your seeing batman as a based reality character i think you should of notice by now that batman is not meant to be real just like james bond is not meant to be real just like charlie angels is not meant to be real just like ethan hunt is not meant to be real do you get my drift? Stop relating superheros to the real world. Your basicly wishing they were real now i don't know how old are you but just by you denying the facts shows alot of signs of insecurity in you and i'm not bashing on you i'm just simply decyphering your reasons on why batman can't win agaisnt any meta-humans or super powered beings. Your logics and comments resembles a 12year old kid who still has not mature. I'm not insulting you i'm just saying re-evaluate on what your saying and go read some batman comics then you will now know who your dealing with and talking about batman is not human he is a symbol in the spiritual nature point of view. Just contemplate about it ok?

P.S. I'm starting to get under the impression that you only see black and white. Hopefully you'll see the true colors of why the batman can do what he does and is very excellent at it.

[Nightwing]

Today is your lucky day but one day i am going to find out a superhuman that starts with the letter Y.

Yuriko Oyama aka Lady Deathstrike.

[saint sinner x]

Lol thanx.

[The Question]

I really don't understand what is your problem "the question" seriously speaking i think your discriminating batman just because he's human.

I'm not descriminating against anyone. I just think it's bull to have a human character preform superhuman feats.

First of all captain america is not super human he is slightly above human perfection

That makes him superhuman either way. An he's slightly above perfection in all areas. That's absolutely impossible to atain through training. He is superhuman.

i'll name you some Super Humans let's start with the alphabets ok like that it'll be more easier for you to understand what is a super human:

A superhuman is someone who's abilities go beyond natural human ptential. Just like Captain America.

My point is a superhuman is someone who is human that can do the super amazing feats, Captain america doesn't do any SUPERHUMAN feats sorry bro it's the truth deal with it get over it.

Yes, he does. He's a world class gymnest, but at the same time he's capable of bench pressing 1100 pounds while carrying on a casual conversation. He can run a mile in a little over a minute and still not get winded. His body doesn't build up fatigue poisons, meaning he can't get tired from physical exertion. And hell, he's physically incapable of getting drunk.

Your side of the arguement is very dull. Here is my analogy of what your argueing about Your pretty much saying that batman is human therefor he shouldn't be able to defeat people who are stronger and more powerful then him right?

For the most part, yeah.

You make me laugh that's like saying The hulk can defeat everybody because he has unlimited strength.

Not really. Especially since I don;t think The Hulk can beat everyone. And I'd be unpleased if he did.

When you match up silver surfer agaisnt the hulk well sorry hulk fans the surfer wins by default he has cosmic powers and cosmic powers would pretty much beat anyone.

Basically. Yeah.

Aoch i sounded like "the question" On that last statement remind me not to do that again. Your seeing batman as a based reality character i think you should of notice by now that batman is not meant to be real just like james bond is not meant to be real just like charlie angels is not meant to be real just like ethan hunt is not meant to be real do you get my drift?

Yes.

Stop relating superheros to the real world.

Batman isn't supposed to be a superhero. He's not supposed to have any powers. And yet people write him that way.

Your basicly wishing they were real now i don't know how old are you but just by you denying the facts shows alot of signs of insecurity in you and i'm not bashing on you i'm just simply decyphering your reasons on why batman can't win agaisnt any meta-humans or super powered beings.

No, that's bashing me. My reason on why Batman shouldn't beat metas is because Batman is not a meta. He is supposed to be a human being with training. No powers of any kind whatsoever. And yet he is written to preform superhuman feats quite alot. That's not good writing.

Your logics and comments resembles a 12year old kid who still has not mature.

No, it doesn't. I'm saying that Batman, as a character with no superhuman abilities, should not preform superhuman feats. That's not an immature arguement.

I'm not insulting you

Yes, you are. Alot.

i'm just saying re-evaluate on what your saying and go read some batman comics then you will now know who your dealing with and talking about batman is not human he is a symbol in the spiritual nature point of view.

No, he's not. He represents a symbol. But Batman, the character, is a human being. A human being who represents an idea can still be killed like any other human being. It's just that when he does get killed, the idea lives on. He doesn't.

P.S. I'm starting to get under the impression that you only see black and white.

1) Not true.

2) What does that have to do with anything?

Hopefully you'll see the true colors of why the batman can do what he does and is very excellent at it.

Basically, the reason is that the DC writers want to make Batman look like the coolest mofo in the universe, so the write him as to preform superhuman feats even though he's not supposed to be superhuman at all. Oh yeah, that's great writing right there.

[Odin's Lapdog]

Then maybe he's got some freaky mind powers. You can't use hypnosis in hand to hand combat. Hypnosis just does not work that way.
well broadly speaking, wouldn't 'freaky mind powers' fit into the wide category of hypnosis?

aren't they all part of the same package, that's my point.

it seems you're definition of hypnosis is kinda just limited to making somone act like a chicken.

[Odin's Lapdog]

You'd Be Surprised How Narrow The Gap Is Between Unwilling & Unable; It's Like "Spider-Man 2". When His Mind Din't Want To Do Something His Body Lost The Ability.
but that doesn't make him unwilling just unable.

he wanted to help that girl in the burning building with his powers, but he was still unable to do so even though the will was there.

if the correlation between willingness and ability was that close in this film, then his powers would have kicked in then.

[The Question]

well broadly speaking, wouldn't 'freaky mind powers' fit into the wide category of hypnosis?

Nope. Hypnosis is a technique that can be learned. Freaky mind powers is just something someone has.

aren't they all part of the same package, that's my point.

it seems you're definition of hypnosis is kinda just limited to making somone act like a chicken.

Of course not. It's just, you can't simply look at someone and make them hypnotized. And there's no such thing as hypnotic gestures. You have to plant suggestions into their minds, and unless you're telepathic, you can;t do that by pointing at them. Hypnosis cannot be used in hand to hand combat. Besides, even if it could, you can't hypnotise someone who doesn't want to be hypnotised or doesn't think they can be hypnotised. They have to be a willing participant.

but that doesn't make him unwilling just unable.



he wanted to help that girl in the burning building with his powers, but he was still unable to do so even though the will was there.



if the correlation between willingness and ability was that close in this film, then his powers would have kicked in then.

No, he was unwilling. Not unable. It was completely psychological. It was just a sub conscious thing. He was doubtful that he wanted to continue as Spider-Man, so, sub consciously, he began holding back with his powers. It took someone close to him being threatened to snap him out of it.

[Odin's Lapdog]

this freaky mind power you keep going on about is a technique he DID aquire from his sensei, he wasn't born with it, he learnt to harness it and use it against people, it's been learnt and has taken a lifetime to master.

now taking into the account the works of this magician derren brown who does similar things for his trade as entertainment, i believe it's more than feasible.

I would ask you seriously to do some research into Derren brown if only to broaden your perspective.

and i also do have problems with your counter argument of something that i've seen and heard being described from the mouth of the actual instructor being rationalised as 'FREAKY MIND POWERS'.

you're being purposely closed minded Question, not cool.

:(

[The Question]

I'm not being closed minded. I just know that that is not how hypnosis works at all. You can't use it in combat and you can't have hypnotic gestires. You need to tell someone to do something if they're going to do it while hypnotised. Hypnosis makes someone susceptible to suggestion. You can't make a suggestion by doing a hand gesture. Unless it's sign language.

[trustyside-kick]

How did a chat about hypnosis come into a conversation about Batman's fighting style(s) again?

[Odin's Lapdog]

rationalising how person 'could' go down with one blow with the mix of technique, intimidation and a hypnotic type gesture.

no biggie.

[trustyside-kick]

But how does hypnotics go with Batman.

[The Question]

Okay, here are some articles on the subject of hypnosis:


http://www.howstuffworks.com/hypnosis.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnosis

[trustyside-kick]

Still do not understand why you are talking about hypnotics. How does it fit in with Batman? I do not recall him having powers. :eek:

[The Question]

Odin said that he thought it was possible that Batman used hypnosis to make people think his punching them would knock them out to deliver one punch knock outs. I said that hypnosis doesn't work like that (which it doesn't), and this conversation got started. Really, you could just go back and read the posts that started it.

[saint sinner x]

Alright "the question" i apologize that i insulted you i just got a little annoyed with your logics and annotations. Just know that batman is a human but with a non-human personification. it's hard to take yea i know but that's the reality of it there's no way around it he is batman that's who he is that's what he does the impossible. This is why he is consider the pennecla of human perfection because he gives the fans to believe in. Because he is human yet he does the impossible.

LIVE ON THE BAT FOREVER SHALL BE IMMORTALIZED

[The Question]

Alright "the question" i apologize that i insulted you i just got a little annoyed with your logics and annotations. Just know that batman is a human but with a non-human personification.

Just because he represents an idea doesn't mean he should be written to preform superhuman feats.

it's hard to take yea i know but that's the reality of it there's no way around it he is batman that's who he is that's what he does the impossible.

Which is bull**** writing. If you have a character who is supposed to be a human being with no superhuman abilities whatsoever, you can't write him to preform superhuman feats. It's just not good writing.

This is why he is consider the pennecla of human perfection because he gives the fans to believe in. Because he is human yet he does the impossible.

But he's not written as the pinnacle of human perfection. He's written as a superhuman. And if he's supposed to simply be a human being with training, then that is bad writing.

[trustyside-kick]

Odin said that he thought it was possible that Batman used hypnosis to make people think his punching them would knock them out to deliver one punch knock outs. I said that hypnosis doesn't work like that (which it doesn't), and this conversation got started. Really, you could just go back and read the posts that started it.

Well that is kind of ridiculous...he knocks some people out with one or few punches because he hits hard? And they cannot take a hit all the time? He is a good fighter and knows the most crucial parts of the body to strike? When you are trained in so many arts makes sense that you learn best parts of the body to attack; the most common weak points. All are good answers as to how he knocks them out fast/with some ease. Oh and I always wanted to use this one but could never find a good time for it...he's the damn Batman. :)

[The Question]

Way I see it, one punch knock outs are generally rare, but if you know where to hit, and the other guy isn't expecting it, it can happen.

[trustyside-kick]

Way I see it, one punch knock outs are generally rare, but if you know where to hit, and the other guy isn't expecting it, it can happen.

Yea exactly. Like pressure points. Man those hurt.

Also, Batman is always two-steps or more ahead of his oponent. And when it comes to the average criminal I think they would not even suspect his whereabouts until they are on the ground kissing his boots in pain.

[Qoèlet]

Way I see it, one punch knock outs are generally rare, but if you know where to hit, and the other guy isn't expecting it, it can happen.
Absolutely, even when trained fighters are fighting at the highest levels, one solid shot to the chin ends fights right away. Even short shots, "phantom punches", drop tough guys. Of course, they don't land quite as quickly as in comic books most of the time, but if you threw a random guy off the street in the ring with Floyd Mayweather Jr., he'd probably be out within 30 seconds anyway.

One bit of irony I note: although Batman was originally written as fighting based on boxing and jiu-jitsu, which he taught to Robin (back in the Finger days, before he got God's resume attached to his name). The thing is, while he's portrayed as traveling all over the world to learn these styles of combat (even including his now ridiculous list of accomplishments), in reality he would not have even needed to leave the United States, or probably even leave Gotham City, to learn all he wanted to know about fighting. Heck, he could have learned all of the throws and takedowns/takedown defence he would ever need as part of a high school wrestling team in Gotham, and boxing/kickboxing gyms, as well as schools and teachers for Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, or whatever else, are readily available in major cities (Maybe Judo/Jiu-Jitsu would be hard to come by in the 1930's... but I doubt even that would have been an issue). The only real reason to travel would have been remaining anonymous, but I doubt Bruce would have been unable to manage that within the US.
Then again, people do love the mystique of someone going to some secret mountaintop to learn.

[The Question]

Yeah. If I were writing some sort of Ultimate Batman comic, his training in it would consist of this:


1) Learning how to fight from Ted Grand. At first it's just boxing, but eventually Ted teaches him Judo throws and military hand to hand combat moves he picked up in the army.

2) Learning tracking, forensic science, and how to think like a detective from Henri Ducard.

3) Learning stealth tactics and other ninjitsu tricks from Ra's Al Ghul.

That would take him roughly six to seven yeas, a good chunk of that period still having him deciding what he wants to do with his life. He'd start when he's fourteen, and end when he's 21. It would act as a perfect cover, too. No one would suspect a 21 year old college drop out of being a highly inteligent vigilante.

[Qoèlet]

Yeah. If I were writing some sort of Ultimate Batman comic, his training in it would consist of this:


1) Learning how to fight from Ted Grand. At first it's just boxing, but eventually Ted teaches him Judo throws and military hand to hand combat moves he picked up in the army.

2) Learning tracking, forensic science, and how to think like a detective from Henri Ducard.

3) Learning stealth tactics and other ninjitsu tricks from Ra's Al Ghul.

That would take him roughly six to seven yeas, a good chunk of that period still having him deciding what he wants to do with his life. He'd start when he's fourteen, and end when he's 21. It would act as a perfect cover, too. No one would suspect a 21 year old college drop out of being a highly inteligent vigilante.
I'd agree with something much like that... although it would probably be natural for Bruce to seek out a couple different teachers rather than learning all of his hand-to-hand from one person. Obviously he's adapting a novel approach to beating the hell out of people, so he'd pick up a few odds and ends from different sources, but on the whole he could learn most of what he wants from Grand, who'd probably be a far better teacher than some nameless bearded Chinese man in the middle of nowhere.
Or, you know, someone who'll teach things like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI&search=Chi%20KO

[The Question]

I'd agree with something much like that... although it would probably be natural for Bruce to seek out a couple different teachers rather than learning all of his hand-to-hand from one person. Obviously he's adapting a novel approach to beating the hell out of people, so he'd pick up a few odds and ends from different sources, but on the whole he could learn most of what he wants from Grand, who'd probably be a far better teacher than some nameless bearded Chinese man in the middle of nowhere.

I'd say Grant because Grant was a vigilante and later a special forces operative for the military. He knows how to street fight. He knows what's most practical for that stuff. He'd teach Bruce a combination of Boxing, Judo, and CQC. It'd take him 'bout two years to become really good at. Less if he's dedicated. Then, through the course of the story, he meets with Ducard at a charity event. Realizing that, somehow, he wants to use his skills to help people, he trains with Ducard to be a detective. Eventually, while on a case, Bruce meets Ra's, who's Ducard's client at the time. Bruce, over thge next year or so, learns stealth techniques, sword fighting, and staff fighting from Ra's. That leads to later plot points I'd use.

Or, you know, someone who'll teach things like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI&search=Chi%20KO

Oh, I just saw that. It'd be cool if that stuff actually works, and hell, it may somewhere. But that particular guy's obviously a fraud.

[trustyside-kick]

Just watched that video and that is wierd. :eek:

[Qoèlet]

I'd say Grant because Grant was a vigilante and later a special forces operative for the military. He knows how to street fight. He knows what's most practical for that stuff. He'd teach Bruce a combination of Boxing, Judo, and CQC. It'd take him 'bout two years to become really good at. Less if he's dedicated. Then, through the course of the story, he meets with Ducard at a charity event. Realizing that, somehow, he wants to use his skills to help people, he trains with Ducard to be a detective. Eventually, while on a case, Bruce meets Ra's, who's Ducard's client at the time. Bruce, over thge next year or so, learns stealth techniques, sword fighting, and staff fighting from Ra's. That leads to later plot points I'd use.



Oh, I just saw that. It'd be cool if that stuff actually works, and hell, it may somewhere. But that particular guy's obviously a fraud.
Seems like a rational chain of events... far too rational for the demi-god Batman has become, but who I keep on reading anyway.
Anyway, the fact this whole "no touch knock out" thing turned out to be bunk when a skinny scientist decided he didn't believe in it (or because his tongue/toes were in the wrong position...:rolleyes: ), could tend to shed some light on the earlier example of master kung fu's mind games. It only works because students are so convinced it'll work.

[The Question]

Seems like a rational chain of events... far too rational for the demi-god Batman has become, but who I keep on reading anyway.

Pretty much. But, given the chance, that's how I'd write an Ultimate Batman story.

Anyway, the fact this whole "no touch knock out" thing turned out to be bunk when a skinny scientist decided he didn't believe in it (or because his tongue/toes were in the wrong position...:rolleyes: ), could tend to shed some light on the earlier example of master kung fu's mind games. It only works because students are so convinced it'll work.

Basically. And hell, I'm not completely against the idea that psychic/supernatural abilities may be possible. But that guy was most definately a fraud.

[trustyside-kick]

Basically. And hell, I'm not completely against the idea that psychic/supernatural abilities may be possible. But that guy was most definately a fraud.

Yea...he does not exactly have a way to prove that....and the whole bullcrap about that guy not getting knocked out because he did not believe is bullcrap.

Even if somehow Batman knew of that technique...obviously his criminals/villains would not even be aware of the technique...so how would it work on them cause they cannot believe something they are un-aware of.

[Kool-Aid]

See? Military teaches pressure points. All Batman would have needed to do was hire someone with alot of military combat experiance, and learn how to fight from him. Now, I'm with the understanding that military hand to hand combat training is designed to be learned very quickly. Am I correct?



Yeah that may have been easier, but I like the issues where he's learning from ninja and other martial arts masters. Its of the reasons I like Batman so much and other comic heros/villians who did that too. I've always thought ninjas were real cool.

[Kool-Aid]

Well, who says he's lightly touching them? For all we know, he may be applying alot of pressure. And there are nerve clusters that, if the right amount of pressure is applied to them, causes someone to be paralyzed or to pass out.


Yeah, Daredevil was talking about how he learned over time how to do that in the last issue.

[Kool-Aid]

But Batman's Also The Most Non-conventional Martial Artist. The Only Time He Employs Anything Remotely Resembling A Traditional Martial Arts Stance Or Technique Is When He's Up Against Someone W/real Training.


When Bruce Lee began his own style of fighting he used the non stance technique.

[trustyside-kick]

Kool-Aid...double posting for what you were doing is understandable...but not triple posting...you could have just editted your previous post(s) since they have been the most recent; except for my post now.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

That video.....funny ass ****!

[The Question]

Yeah that may have been easier, but I like the issues where he's learning from ninja and other martial arts masters. Its of the reasons I like Batman so much and other comic heros/villians who did that too. I've always thought ninjas were real cool.


So, basically you like the quasi mystical apeal of training with old asien guys in tibet rather than doing it practically.

[Kool-Aid]

So, basically you like the quasi mystical apeal of training with old asien guys in tibet rather than doing it practically.


Nah, more like ninja masters in Japan or Kung Fu Masters in Asia like Pi Mai(sp?) who rip out peoples eyeballs. Good stuff:up: :)

Trivia time: Did you know the Dali Lama hired a ninja master as the head of security? Here he is http://www.skhquest.com/


I read a few of his books there good.

[The Question]

Nah, more like ninja masters in Japan or Kung Fu Masters in Asia like Pi Mai(sp?) who rip out peoples eyeballs. Good stuff:up: :)

So, the quasi mystical apeal. Ninjas and Kung Fu masters in the high mountains of Asia are good. But you can find people just as skilled in the good ol' U.S. of A.

[trustyside-kick]

So, the quasi mystical apeal. Ninjas and Kung Fu masters in the high mountains of Asia are good. But you can find people just as skilled in the good ol' U.S. of A.

My cousin used to be either the best or second best Karate fighter in the US not too long ago. He has gone down in rank though I believe since he does not practice as much since he goes to Film School.

[Kool-Aid]

So, the quasi mystical apeal. Ninjas and Kung Fu masters in the high mountains of Asia are good. But you can find people just as skilled in the good ol' U.S. of A.


I know, I just like the stories where he's going on trips to Asia to learn with masters. Just like I like when Daredevil learned ninja techniques. Plus I think if he was to learn with a ninja that'd be better for the stuff he does. Unless he trains with a special agent that was in the CIA or somthing. I'm sure they can't even teach he as much as far as chi power techniques though or the kinda awarness they have, such as remote viewing ect.. Ninjitsu has been practiced and modfied for centurys they gotta know more.

[The Question]

I know, I just like the stories where he's going on trips to Asia to learn with masters. Just like I like when Daredevil learned ninja techniques.

From an old homeless guy in New York.

Plus I think if he was to learn with a ninja that'd be better for the stuff he does. Unless he trains with a special agent that was in the CIA or somthing. I'm sure they can't even teach he as much as far as chi power techniques or the kinda awarness they have, such as remote viewing ect..

Ummm, the CIA employs remote veiwers for special operations. And I'm fairly certain most ninjas don't have chi powers. In fact, I've heard of very few ninjas who have chi powers. Ninjas started out simnply as vigilantes in rural Japanese villaiges who used stealth and guerilla tactics to defend their villaiges against corrupt samurai. They weren't magical. Batman would not need to train with ninja clans in the mountains of asia to learn what he need. Hell, I'm not even sure if there are any ninja clans in the mountains of asia anymore.

Ninjitsu has been practiced and modfied for centurys they gotta know more.

No, they don't. The government may be full of self serving burocrats, but the military are pros. If ninjas have perfected stealth techniques over several centuries, the military's probably got them down aswell. And, the CIA and FBI employ and train psychics, so it's not like their unfamiliar with the "chi power" stuff either.

[DGrayson]

Daredevil may have learned a lot from stick, but not everything Matt knows about fighting is from him and stick wasn't just a homeless guy. Check stick's back story for that. And I think there are things about martial arts that the government has not covered.

[Kool-Aid]

From an old homeless guy in New York.

He was still a ninja master. Regardless.....I like what I like.



Ummm, the CIA employs remote veiwers for special operations. And I'm fairly certain most ninjas don't have chi powers. In fact, I've heard of very few ninjas who have chi powers. Ninjas started out simnply as vigilantes in rural Japanese villaiges who used stealth and guerilla tactics to defend their villaiges against corrupt samurai. They weren't magical. Batman would not need to train with ninja clans in the mountains of asia to learn what he need. Hell, I'm not even sure if there are any ninja clans in the mountains of asia anymore.

I know they do, but they are certin factions that do not all who are trained agents do it. Plus don't you think the CIA might keep tabs on there former employes and wonder what the deal is with this rich kid training with all them? Don't you see how what they did using stealth and guerilla tactics to defend their villaiges against corrupt samurai kinda goes hand and hand with what Batmans doing? Why not go learn with them? Plus I know they can'yt teach him all the spirtual techniques and what not. Weather they were or weren't magical is up foer debate. I can't comment on the extent of there magical practices cuz I don't know hoe deep it was, but they did practice magic.



No, they don't. The government may be full of self serving burocrats, but the military are pros. If ninjas have perfected stealth techniques over several centuries, the military's probably got them down aswell. And, the CIA and FBI employ and train psychics, so it's not like their unfamiliar with the "chi power" stuff either.


Well neither of us can really say. Unless your a Ninjutsu master who also works for the CIA ect.......wait are you?:eek: I seriously doubt they employ the chi techniques. When have you seen someone in the military do this crazy **** with a spear?http://yarnyeetong.com/images/kungfu_chikung2.jpg Ninjas gotta know a thing or 2. I mena the Dali Lama hired them.


If you wanna learn about ninjutsu I suggest buying this. http://shopping.discovery.com/product-56036.html

Or read this. I don't feel like going into detail of what they do. So here it is.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjutsu Plus I'm postitive they do more....because their art is kept in strict codes of secrecy.

Here's more reading for you or whoever:

http://www.onlinedojo.ca/Style%20Directory/History/Ninjutsu.htm
http://www.winjutsu.com/
http://www.kihon.com/ninpo/
http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=149
http://www.american-ninjutsu.com/classes.shtml

[The Question]

He was still a ninja master. Regardless.....I like what I like.

Fine. Whatever.

I know they do, but they are certin factions that do not all who are trained agents do it.

And not all ninjas have chi powers. In fact, very few do to my knowlege.

Plus don't you think the CIA might keep tabs on there former employes and wonder what the deal is with this rich kid training with all them?

What do you mean "all them?" He'd only need to train with one guy. ANd it wouldn't even have to be a CIA guy. Former marine or special forces guy would probably be good enough.

Don't you see how what they did using stealth and guerilla tactics to defend their villaiges against corrupt samurai kinda goes hand and hand with what Batmans doing?

So does training with former special forces types. I don't have a problem with him learning stealth from ninja types. But he wouldn't need to leave the country to do it.

Why not go learn with them? Plus I know they can'yt teach him all the spirtual techniques and what not. Weather they were or weren't magical is up foer debate. I can't comment on the extent of there magical practices cuz I don't know hoe deep it was, but they did practice magic.

No, they didn't. They just used guerilla tactics. Listen, ninjas would be fine to learn from. But they wouldn't be any better than special forces types.

Well neither of us can really say. Unless your a Ninjutsu master who also works for the CIA ect.......wait are you?:eek: I seriously doubt they employ the chi techniques.

And I doubt many ninjas employ chi techniques. The real world ain't Naruto, my friend. Most ninjas I know of don't have fancy mind powers.

When have you seen someone in the military do this crazy **** with a spear?http://yarnyeetong.com/images/kungfu_chikung2.jpg Ninjas gotta know a thing or 2. I mena the Dali Lama hired them.

Doesn't mean they're the end all be all of fighting. Special forces types would be just as good.

[DGrayson]

I think special forces are good with weapons tactics, like guns. But take the guns away and ninjas would definetly take them down.

And well off the subject a little who is better trained a Navy SEAL or a CIA agent? just if anyone know.

[The Question]

1) Special forces guys are definately trained in hand to hand. Probably as well as ninjas, if not better since ninjas don't generally have anywhere near the resources that special forces agents have.

2) SEALs take it. They're in the feild way more. And their training is ****ing intense.

[TheGrayGhost]

EDIT: Sigh. Nevermind.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

A homeless guy that is king of martial arts.....that actually sounds pretty ****in awesome.

[The Question]

Well, he wasn't the king of martial arts. But he was damned good. From what I understand, Stick was born on the streets of New York, blind. He lewarned how to cope with it and surive on the streets, and became an acomplished fighter. He eventually met up with a clan of ni jas, who helped him hone his skills. SUpposedly, he was the reincarnation of one of their greatest members. Eventually, he ended up training Daredevil.

[Chris Wallace]

From what I've read, the ninja's specialty is stealth, long-range & sneak attacks, not direct combat. Their hand-to-hand was relatively poor, contrary to what the movies would have you believe.

[The Question]

Yeah. Like I said, the origional ninjas relied heavily on guerilla warfare tactics. As for Daredevil's hand to hand, I think Daredevil's combat proficiency comes from learning the basics of boxing by watching his dad train and imitating him, and also that Stick was a profficient street fighter without the ninjitsu training and passed that to Matt.

[Andy C.]

On the subject on ninjitsu "Chi powers:"

From the information I've gleaned, one of the bigger advantages ninjas had over samurai (aside from way more practical equipment and tactics centuries ahead of its time) wasn't that they had any sort of supernatural abilities, but that they were able to convince enemies that they did. Some would wear spiked cleats on their feet and hands, which allowed them to climb sheer walls, or catch incoming sword strikes. This would give them the illusion of having superhuman strength or agility. They are also said to have colored their clothing in red dye to mask the color of blood when they were cut, giving them the illusion of being invincible.

Such clever trickery could also lead to people's imaginations getting the better of them; if ninjas were capable of scaling walls without ropes, catching swords with their bare hands, and being struck without bleeding, what else could they do? So I'd have to guess that most of the stories of ninjas having any sort of supernatural powers were either carefully crafted illusions or simple urban legend.

(Though the CIA has been known to employ remote viewers and psychics, which does potentially validate the argument. Still, there's a difference between psychics and "Chi")

Also, regarding ninja clans roaming the Asian continent, there aren't any. Ninjitsu is still being practiced by many, but the last actual ninjas died off in the late ninteenth/early twentieth century, not long after the Samurai were wiped out. They had mainly served as bodyguards for the Shogun for the last century or so of their existence (to eliminate them as a "wild card" in the clashes between feudal lords), and when Japan began to modernize, there was simply no need for them. Since then, modern special ops groups have taken many of the ninjitsu techniques and adapted them for modern warfare. Simply put, ninjas were ahead of their time way back when, but now they're obsolete.

From what I've read, the ninja's specialty is stealth, long-range & sneak attacks, not direct combat. Their hand-to-hand was relatively poor, contrary to what the movies would have you believe.

Not true. Ninjas were more adept at disguise and mimickry, more focused on "hiding in plain sight" than sneaking around in the shadows. And if they were discovered, their method of combat was made specifically to exploit the weaknesses of the Samurai's technique, through confusing movements, hidden weapons, etc. In a straight confrontation between a ninja and a samurai, the ninja would more than likely win.

I could go on a whole rant about how ineffective the samurai really were and how the romanticized view of them is based mostly off of confrontations with other samurai instead of any sort of foreign or modernized opponent, but that's another argument for another day.

[trustyside-kick]

Ok um...this is about Batman's fighting styles...you guys have gone so off topic and now talking about chi powers and crap which Batman does not possess.

[Qoèlet]

Ok um...this is about Batman's fighting styles...you guys have gone so off topic and now talking about chi powers and crap which Batman does not possess.
That would tend to be the point: doesn't have them, doesn't need them, so forget the whole BS mystic stuff... although it's pretty amusing that the Dalai freaking Lama was cited like he's an authority on combat.

[The Question]

On the subject on ninjitsu "Chi powers:"

From the information I've gleaned, one of the bigger advantages ninjas had over samurai (aside from way more practical equipment and tactics centuries ahead of its time) wasn't that they had any sort of supernatural abilities, but that they were able to convince enemies that they did. Some would wear spiked cleats on their feet and hands, which allowed them to climb sheer walls, or catch incoming sword strikes. This would give them the illusion of having superhuman strength or agility. They are also said to have colored their clothing in red dye to mask the color of blood when they were cut, giving them the illusion of being invincible.

Such clever trickery could also lead to people's imaginations getting the better of them; if ninjas were capable of scaling walls without ropes, catching swords with their bare hands, and being struck without bleeding, what else could they do? So I'd have to guess that most of the stories of ninjas having any sort of supernatural powers were either carefully crafted illusions or simple urban legend.

Very true. And that is the kind of mystique Batman would try to cultivate and could easily cultivate. The proper body armor combines with proper evasion tactics could make him seem bulletproof. Proper use of flashbangs and smoke pellets to hide his actions and stun his oponents combined with a taser could build up the reputation that he has sufficient strength to knock a man out by barely touching him. Use of a grappling gun with an electronic reel atatched to his belt used to swing across large gaps, lower himself to the ground safely, and scale buildings quickly combined with his cape gives the illusion that he can fly. Proper use of a blowgun with small enough darts makes it seem that he can cause people to pass out with the power of his mind.

(Though the CIA has been known to employ remote viewers and psychics, which does potentially validate the argument. Still, there's a difference between psychics and "Chi")

And there's a difference between being a remote veiwer (a skill that I doubt more than a handful could ever really cultivate) and using freaking chi powers as seen in Chinese action movies.

Also, regarding ninja clans roaming the Asian continent, there aren't any. Ninjitsu is still being practiced by many, but the last actual ninjas died off in the late ninteenth/early twentieth century, not long after the Samurai were wiped out. They had mainly served as bodyguards for the Shogun for the last century or so of their existence (to eliminate them as a "wild card" in the clashes between feudal lords), and when Japan began to modernize, there was simply no need for them. Since then, modern special ops groups have taken many of the ninjitsu techniques and adapted them for modern warfare. Simply put, ninjas were ahead of their time way back when, but now they're obsolete.

Very true. One could easily learn the skills of ninjitsu without ever leaving the U.S.

[Kritish]

You have to take into account that Batman has designed his suit to be aerodynamic, with maximum flexibility. Lightweight metals, lightweight armor, etc so he wouldnt need to adapt his style much. Darth Vader's armor is much heavier, much bulkier, than Batman's own suit.
Then again, I don't really see why Vader would need to change his fighting style to accomodate; all four of his limbs were almost all robotic, which would naturally be stronger and faster than his ordinary limbs. But that's going off-topic.

It would still hurt his flexibility.

[Kool-Aid]

although it's pretty amusing that the Dalai freaking Lama was cited like he's an authority on combat.

Well you read that wrong, thats okay though...

Oh and Batman has had mystical teachings and uses chi techniques.

Batman healing himself.
http://img12.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc188&image=ea5_batraining4.jpg
http://img105.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc86&image=e12_batraining5.jpg
http://img108.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc277&image=93c_batraining6.jpg


Heres a chi moves for you.
http://img5.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc299&image=d8a_batpalm.jpg
http://img20.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc145&image=da4_batshots.jpg

Heres a breif run down on his training.
http://members.tripod.com/agent0x7/dkskill1.html

[The Question]

Heres a chi moves for you.
http://img5.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc299&image=d8a_batpalm.jpg
http://img20.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc145&image=da4_batshots.jpg


How is any of that "chi" related. All that was was mentioning that he knows the "vibrating palm technique" (which I would wager doesn't actually exist), and a bunch of moves that were fancy names for elbowing someone in the chest.

[trustyside-kick]

Where are those pictures he posted from?

[Tin_Man]

It would still hurt his flexibility.


Are we talking Vader, or Batman?

If it's Vader, it really shouldnt; if anything, it should increase his flexibility. Grievous, a cyborg with a breathing problem himself, was able to flip and twirl like mad. Vader had the cybernetics and the Force; by all logic, Vader should be able to flip and twirl in a manner superior to Grievous. But there Lucas goes again, trying to make escuses for the Original Trilogy Vader's lack of mobility. The EU novel Dark Lord is trying to smooth over his idiocy... like the EU always does ("It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs" anyone?). That's a big complaint of mine with the Prequels; all flash, and very little substance, whereas the Originals didn't need fancy twirly-gigs to capture interest.

As for Batman? No. The materials that Batman uses in his suit are designed for maximum mobility, as stated in the book "Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight."

[trustyside-kick]

Never heard of that book before; Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight.

[Tin_Man]

It's an official publication by DC Comics that focuses on Batman, his weaponry/gadgets, his enemies, and friends. You can find it at Barnes & Noble; it's alot like those Ultimate Guides that Marvel puts out. They have one on Superman, as well, though I have yet to purchase it.

[Kool-Aid]

How is any of that "chi" related. All that was was mentioning that he knows the "vibrating palm technique" (which I would wager doesn't actually exist), and a bunch of moves that were fancy names for elbowing someone in the chest.


http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4079


Also: Vibrating Palm: also called Iron Palm. A method reputedly enabling one to produce a psycho-physical heat internally, which, with control, can be made to project into the palms of the hands or to any area of the body. ... Today, any practitioner who achieves "a hand like iron," as the saying goes, is credited with possessing an iron palm. This technique belongs almost exclusively to the domain of Kung-Fu. http://www.karatelaw.com/faqs.html

Also: Kung-fu expert Kah Wah Lee is reported to have rediscovered an ancient technique known as the "vibrating palm". Apparently Lee placed two pieces of half-inch-thick roofing-tiles under two boards, having sandwiched between them a cushion of tofu (soft bean-curd made into custard) about 3 inches thick. He applied his right hand to the board on top. The tiles chattered. Lee claimed that he converted his ch'i or ki into resonating vibrations by means of intense concentration. These were then transmitted through the tofu to the lower board and from there to the tiles, which were shattered by the resonance. It is said that it is possible to deliver a "delayed death-touch" to one's opponent by this means [17]. http://www.pastornet.net.au/response/articles/41.htm

Heres one of the moves that was in the other pic.
Phoenix Eye Fist
http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/images/Phoenix%20Eye%20Techs/Pheonix-eye.jpg
http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/images/Phoenix%20Eye%20Techs/Pheonix-eye1.jpg

I couldn't find the Steel mountain push to back it up. My friend said thats a real one though.
:)

[The Question]

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4079


Also: Vibrating Palm: also called Iron Palm. A method reputedly enabling one to produce a psycho-physical heat internally, which, with control, can be made to project into the palms of the hands or to any area of the body. ... Today, any practitioner who achieves "a hand like iron," as the saying goes, is credited with possessing an iron palm. This technique belongs almost exclusively to the domain of Kung-Fu. http://www.karatelaw.com/faqs.html

Also: Kung-fu expert Kah Wah Lee is reported to have rediscovered an ancient technique known as the "vibrating palm". Apparently Lee placed two pieces of half-inch-thick roofing-tiles under two boards, having sandwiched between them a cushion of tofu (soft bean-curd made into custard) about 3 inches thick. He applied his right hand to the board on top. The tiles chattered. Lee claimed that he converted his ch'i or ki into resonating vibrations by means of intense concentration. These were then transmitted through the tofu to the lower board and from there to the tiles, which were shattered by the resonance. It is said that it is possible to deliver a "delayed death-touch" to one's opponent by this means [17]. http://www.pastornet.net.au/response/articles/41.htm

Hmmm. Interesting.

Heres one of the moves that was in the other pic.
Phoenix Eye Fist
http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/images/Phoenix%20Eye%20Techs/Pheonix-eye.jpg
http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/images/Phoenix%20Eye%20Techs/Pheonix-eye1.jpg

I couldn't find the Steel mountain push to back it up. My friend said thats a real one though.
:)

You know, simply punching the guy really hard would be just as effective.

[Qoèlet]

Well you read that wrong, thats okay though...

Oh, so you didn't say "Ninjas gotta know a thing or 2. I mena the Dali Lama hired them"? Because I'm pretty sure you did. This statement implies that, because the Dalai Lama hired ninjas, that means they must be very good at their jobs. The only reason that the fact the Dalai Lama decided to employ these individuals would be relevant would be that the Dalai Lama is better qualified than those of us involved in this conversation to decide who the most effective security agents/martial artists in the world are. The only problem is that the Dalai Lama is a spiritual leader, has probably never thrown a punch in his entire life, and rightly so given his position. He doesn't know **** about combat, so it doesn't matter who he hires... it is just as relevant as stating that the Pope has a small army of Swiss Guards, and therefore Batman should probably run off to the Vatican and train with them. But of course no-one's claiming that because there's no BS mysticism attached to the Swiss, and no people like Frank Dux (and probably that joker who claims to have rediscovered the "quivering palm"), putting together charades and parlour tricks under the guise of ninjitsu and gung fu so they can profit from McDojos.

[Kool-Aid]

See? Yeah, you read it wrong.... He hired them doesn't mean he knows things about combat.....it does mean though that I'm sure they were refered by someone who knows alot....don't you think he would have someone hire the best or someone would make sure he had the best? And for the rest of your post its just your opinon.....Batman is what he is...

[Qoèlet]

See? Yeah, you read it wrong.... He hired them doesn't mean he knows things about combat.....it does mean though that I'm sure they were refered by someone who knows alot....don't you think he would have someone hire the best or someone would make sure he had the best? And for the rest of your post its just your opinon.....Batman is what he is...
Let's look at your proposed logic for deciding who to train with, then compare it to The Question's
Dalai Lama... spiritual leader who you assume to have good advisors (who you didn't bother to mention in your chain of logic beforehand: I did not read anything incorrectly).
US government and armed forces: superpower that's actually involved in, you know, fighting and killing people.
And yet you're privileging the Dalai Lama's supposed advisors' expertise, which you cannot actually establish aside from saying you assume he has good advisors.... over the expertise of military and espionage agencies of the world's greatest military power, which has actually been proven, and is being proven, time and time again in the real world. How in the hell does this display anything resembling a logical train of thought?

So, game point and match go to The Question.

Sadly, however, it is not only my opinion that people seek to profit from the nonsensical mysticism associated with east-asian martial arts. Remember Frank Dux? This man essentially showed up out of the blue, told a story about being trained by his old ninja neighbour fighting in secret tournaments and being undefeated... but of course that story couldn't be confirmed because... hey... the tournaments were "secret"... never mind the fact that there's no actual record of his supposed ninja teacher ever having existed. And people actually believed him. People still believe him, even though former students have come forward to reveal that some of his "feats" like breaking bulletproof glass and shattering two bottles in the air at once, were complete fabrications. Of course, then there's the "Chi knockout" already mentioned. Bottom line: try to find some modern day examples of real, legitimate, combat situations or sports fighting where ninja and "chi" tactics have proven successful outside of exhibitions and kung fu movies. Good luck on that.
Basically, people buy into it because of fiction and a genuine belief in the mysticism of "the orient"... it's really bigotry more than anything else.

[DGrayson]

I wanted to ask something if anyone know please answer, I always tought that the navy seals sucked in hand to hand combat, but then I found out about their mixed style. Which led me to think that Nightwing has apparently an emphasis on aikido in the comics but his style is more acrobatic so there might be some mixed martial art or a specific one for speed and aerial combat? Does anyone know about one that emphasises aerial combat or/and speed?

[Nightwing]

I wanted to ask something if anyone know please answer, I always tought that the navy seals sucked in hand to hand combat, but then I found out about their mixed style. Which led me to think that Nightwing has apparently an emphasis on aikido in the comics but his style is more acrobatic so there might be some mixed martial art or a specific one for speed and aerial combat? Does anyone know about one that emphasises aerial combat or/and speed?

Wushu.

[Nightwing92]

batman is a master of every known martial art in the world! (right?)

[nmilstein]

Let's look at your proposed logic for deciding who to train with, then compare it to The Question's
Dalai Lama... spiritual leader who you assume to have good advisors (who you didn't bother to mention in your chain of logic beforehand: I did not read anything incorrectly).
US government and armed forces: superpower that's actually involved in, you know, fighting and killing people.
And yet you're privileging the Dalai Lama's supposed advisors' expertise, which you cannot actually establish aside from saying you assume he has good advisors.... over the expertise of military and espionage agencies of the world's greatest military power, which has actually been proven, and is being proven, time and time again in the real world. How in the hell does this display anything resembling a logical train of thought?

So, game point and match go to The Question.

Sadly, however, it is not only my opinion that people seek to profit from the nonsensical mysticism associated with east-asian martial arts. Remember Frank Dux? This man essentially showed up out of the blue, told a story about being trained by his old ninja neighbour fighting in secret tournaments and being undefeated... but of course that story couldn't be confirmed because... hey... the tournaments were "secret"... never mind the fact that there's no actual record of his supposed ninja teacher ever having existed. And people actually believed him. People still believe him, even though former students have come forward to reveal that some of his "feats" like breaking bulletproof glass and shattering two bottles in the air at once, were complete fabrications. Of course, then there's the "Chi knockout" already mentioned. Bottom line: try to find some modern day examples of real, legitimate, combat situations or sports fighting where ninja and "chi" tactics have proven successful outside of exhibitions and kung fu movies. Good luck on that.
Basically, people buy into it because of fiction and a genuine belief in the mysticism of "the orient"... it's really bigotry more than anything else.

I'm afraid that:
1) I am not a qualified comic reader
2) I am not a qualified martial arts master
3) I am not a qualified health-care professional (this will be made clear later on).

However, what I can offer is an anecdotal evidence of "the mysticism of the 'orient' " (please note that it is NOT related to combat).
My brother had tendinitis in his hand. It got bad enough that he was exempt from all practical exams (please note that his violin teacher didn't care in the least when his nail tore off during a masterclass... as a result, he bled all over his violin's fingerboard for the remainder of the masterclass). He took all the tests recommended by the school doctor/physician (again, I am NOT a qualified health-care professional, and I don't remember which tests he took for those of you who ARE qualified), but there was nothing that could be done. When he came back, we went to see a .. I'm not sure what the correct word for it is in English, so I'll refer to that type of professional a "Chinese doctor" (perhaps "physician using traditional methods" would be more appropriate, but I'm digressing). The "Chinese doctor" did some chi-related treatment (it might have involved acupressure, but not acupuncture). Immediately afterwards, the swelling in my brother's hand regressed, and he could move his fingers. He gave of a bad-smelling brew, and he told my brother to dip his hand in it regularly (I forgot the schedule). My brother's hand healed properly.

A few notes:
- This is ANECDOTAL evidence. It should by no means taken as something that can occur most of the time with most "Chinese doctors".
- Given what I know of my brother, this might very well have been nothing more than the placebo effect. However, I am inclined to disbelieve this possibility, since I know how distressed my brother was when he couldn't practice.
- This does NOT mean that chi can be used in combat. In fact, it's far from it: the physician took a few moments before to concentrate, and the "treatment" took several minutes. In combat, he'd have been pummelled long before any effect could possibly take place.

My point is simply that there are phenomenon not yet explained by science, and that perhaps some of the stories concerning chi are true. I must stress that it is simply contradictory with what we currently know of science, not that it cannot ever be explained scientifically. I disbelieve men who are able to fly using their chi, or again "hit" someone far away using chi (in fact, I believe that "chi" can be explained scientifically.. perhaps something related to blood circulation).

Sorry if this seems a random post, or if I was rambling.