i will get FA-LAMED for this but i think Robin SHOULD be in film 3!

[bdsproductions]

he should be Dick Grayson threw most of the movie his parents killed by The Joker during his rampage in Batman 2 (off-screen but referenced) he becomes Robin in the last thirty minutes.

[Anjow1060]

is this spider-freddie again?

[The Fallen]

:down No Robin thank you...

[bdsproductions]

i mean a dark,older (17 year old),brooding,batman-ish Robin with a dark Red Suit with Black where yellow usually is.

[Ronny Shade]

I would like to see Dick appear in the end of 3. age 13 or 14. Not robin yet.

[bdsproductions]

me,i won't no films in this continuety after 3 keep it a trilogy.

[Stringer]

No Robin in the trilogy after that maybe.

[Katsuro]

is this spider-freddie again?

No. Spelling is too good, and Freddie wants Robin in film 2, he'd never suggest saving it for film 3. Also, this guy admits most people dont want Robin, and also meets other people's criticism with a response other than childish name calling. This guy aint freddie.

And I too would like to see Robin come it an some point, i'm just not sure when. If they only do 3 films, i'd prefer they leave him out. 3 solo, early career batfilms, with no real loose ends at the end. If they plan on continuing though, introducing Dick Grayson in the third film would be a good idea. Set up his revenge storyline (stick to classic Tony Zucco murdering the Graysons at the circus storyline) and have Bruce train him up until the end of the third film. Then when the second starts, he's all trained and ready to don the costume.

[Ronny Shade]

Let me just point out that ever since the 1980s there;s never NOT been a Batman film in the works. Batman is popular. He's popular in books, he's popular on backbacks and trapper keepers, and he's popular on celluloid. It'd be foolish of WB to not be making Batman films, especially if they're doing well. Given the exposure of Begins will help Begins 2 do probably even better in the box office, we can safely say that these films are doing well. I believe this franchise will continue on past three film with or without Nolan. Probably even with or without Bale. That said, I want Robin in 4 or 5.

[Logan Howlett]

Ok leme go through MY idea for Dick in Begins one more time.

I think that either in 2 or 3, Dick grason should be presented as somewhere around 18 or 19. He could be a young man raised by a family of circus preformers. He's been trained all of his life as acircus trapeize artist/gymnist. However, Dick does not want to go into the family buisness, he wants to pursue some other course of life, be it music, or art, or something that every teenager wants to be. Hes rebelious and headstrong, and constantly in fights over petty things, like namecalling or a dirty look. But after finding out that his father has some sort of sevier illness and wants Dick to take over the family buisness when he passes, Dick reluctantly gives in. (or perhaps forget that small part and move directly into this) Late one night Dick's family are slain while preparing for their next act in thier tralier, Dick was not with them because he blew them and the preformance off for a date with a girl. After this Dick turns inward, he is now filled with anger, and guilt. Guilt because he believes he should have been there, maybe he could have stoped it, or maybe he feels that HE should have died in their place. Now he has cosen to focus this anger to kill those responsible for his families death. He trains himself harder and faster than he ever did as a child or teenager. He mixes his gymnastic routines with what he knows of fighting, essentialy creating his own unique style. Now he dons a black (maybe black and red) biker jacket, and a black or red mask (almost resembeling Jason Todd's look when he returned), a pair of regualr (or spandex for movement) bluejeans, and black steel toed boots. He begins making his way through the criminal underworld executing his own brand of justice, and trying to find his parents murderers. At this time the local new starts doing stories on him and title him "The Robin" for his agility and grace reported by witnesses. About this time Bruce would catch wind of this and make an effort to find this guy. Perhaps Bruce does, they square off and Dick either is a good match for him, or is MUCH more than Bats expected and Dick hands his ass to him. The next time around Batman is now more prepared and returns an asskicking to him HARD! He tells Dick that he knows who he is, and why he is doing what he is doing, then offers him the oportunity to come with him, to train with him and in time find his parents killer together. For Bruce it would almost feel like getting the retrebution he never could since Joe Chill was murdered. At first Dick declines, but after realizing that A. His life in a crappy old trailer SUX! B. That He could do alot with Bruces money and C. The more training he can get the better. Now Dick is fitted with another survival suit from Wayne Enterprises such as the one Bruce made the Batsuit out of, makes a black mask to cover the basic eye (and possibly forehead area) and asks Dick what he wants as his symbol, explains why he chose the bat as his own, and also explains that the name ROBIN isn't very threatening. Dick chooses to make the name NIGHTWING and design his own symbol (resembeling more of the current Nightwing look were the symbol is not technicaly a bird) Now Dick is very threatening looking, perhaps has about shoulder length hair as many teenagers do, and it plays well with the costume, and help to conceal his facial features. About this time he and Bruce figure out who killed his parents (be it joker, two face, crime lord, etc.) and he is now faced with the choice of killing him. Batman does his best to guid him, maybe he kills him maybe he doesn't, but in the end he is even more ****ed up than before. Maybe at this time NIGHTWING decides to go his own way, fight for himself for a bit, or maybe he stays, I'm still not sure, but either way THIS idea, IMO, is very realistic and takes away all of the comic campyness of the past and completly avoids the Shumaker version of Robin as played by Chris O' Donnel.

Well, there it is, hope ya like it! :)

[L0ngsh0t]

Dick Grayson, maybe

Robin, no

[L0ngsh0t]

Let me just point out that ever since the 1980s there;s never NOT been a Batman film in the works. Batman is popular. He's popular in books, he's popular on backbacks and trapper keepers, and he's popular on celluloid. It'd be foolish of WB to not be making Batman films, especially if they're doing well. Given the exposure of Begins will help Begins 2 do probably even better in the box office, we can safely say that these films are doing well. I believe this franchise will continue on past three film with or without Nolan. Probably even with or without Bale. That said, I want Robin in 4 or 5.


i only have my laziness to blame for double posting..

but i think this is the absolute way to go for robin Shade...mad ups

[GoldGoblin]

No Robin in the trilogy

^Exactly.:up: :up:

[The Kid]

Dick for begins 3.

[El Payaso]

he should be Dick Grayson threw most of the movie his parents killed by The Joker during his rampage in Batman 2 (off-screen but referenced) he becomes Robin in the last thirty minutes.

No flame.

you're just wrong.

[chosen1]

I would like to see Dick appear in the end of 3. age 13 or 14. Not robin yet.

good man!

[raybia]

I would like to see Dick appear in the end of 3. age 13 or 14. Not robin yet.


I think it would be wrong to show even a little Dick, let alone a mature Dick in the next two sequels.

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

Stuff Robin back in a cage..

no Robin in this version of Batmans universe.

[Johnny Drama]

Ummm....

[Johnny Drama]

I think it would be wrong to show even a little Dick, let alone a mature Dick.


Bwahahahahahaha! :eek: Oh my god that is the funniest thing anyone has ever accidentally said on the hype!

[The Joker]

Bwahahahahahaha! :eek: Oh my god that is the funniest thing anyone has ever accidentally said on the hype!

not accidental...you cant start a thread about robin like here without comments about dick...but hey, everyone loves dick, even me...

but I wouldnt want dick in the movie, at least not as early as 3...save dick for 4 or 5, and then we can have a giant dick-fest :o

[raybia]

Bwahahahahahaha! :eek: Oh my god that is the funniest thing anyone has ever accidentally said on the hype!


Thanks!:up: :)

Here something even funnier!


YOU MIGHT BE FROM JERSEY IF...



* You don't understand why there aren't more 24-hour diners elsewhere in the country.

* You know what a Wawa is, and know the location of at least 15 of them.

* You think a mountain is that big freakin' hill in Atlantic Highlands.

* You know Asbury Park is no longer the mecca of East Coast resort towns.

* Even though there's a new Wal-Mart in your town, you still go to the Englishtown Auction for cheap stuff.

* You can name all the flavors of salt water taffy.

* Your car is covered with yellow-green dust in April and May.

* You buy Shop-Rite brand food at Shop-Rite.

* You can smell and know when it's low tide.

* The Jets/Giants game has started fights at your school and/or local bar.

* There are no self serve gas stations and you like it that freakin' way... "yous gotta problem wit dat?"

* You've had sex on the beach, and I'm not talking about the beverage.

* You know how to successfully handle a traffic circle.

* You know what skeeball is and you can get three 50's in a row.

* You think the Olive Garden is crap and should have never opened any restaurants in New Jersey.

* You've run out of money on the Parkway.

* You're Italian.

* You know where to get the best bagels and pizza.

* Donald Trump is mentioned at least daily in your local paper.

* You say "water" weird. (Wooder, Cawfee, Dowg, wadever).

* Even your school made good Italian subs.

* You've lived through hurricanes, nor'easters and fires, but have never seen a tornado, earthquake, tsunami or volcano.

* You can't believe MTV went to Seaside Heights.

* You know that ACME is an actual store, not just a Warner Bros.creation.

* You only go to New York City for day trips.

* You know what a "jug handle" is.

* You have mandatory recycling. Enforced by law.

* You've eaten a pork roll and cheese on a hard roll...and like it.

* You go to at least one parade at the boardwalk each year.

* You've pondered, "Maybe basketball would be more popular in New Jersey if the Nets didn't blow,"

* You can go bowling at 1:30 A.M. (with automatic scoring)!

* In high school, you worked at a Friendly's.

* Route 18 doesn't freak you out at night.

* Because your town was founded before 1776, all the restaurants, taverns and shops have "ye," "olde," and "colonial" in their names.

* You don't have to go to Red Lobster to get fresh seafood.

* You once said, "It smells like New York in here."

* You've waited for the damn drawbridge for more than 20 damn minutes.

* At least three people in your family still love Bruce Springsteen.

* There's a fruit and vegetable stand down the road.

* "Anyone who makes bad pizza can go to hell" is your attitude.

* You always use a minimum of 10 variations of the word "damn" while driving.

* You don't take any **** from anybody. Especially from someone from New York, because you live here for christ's sake and just who the hell do they think they are anyway? Invading our damn beaches and bars, they're just here for the damn summer and they think they own the damn place and....

* You've gone to the race track with twenty different daily double bets from twenty different people.

* You've spent St Patrick's day in Belmar.

* You know that there are bakeries which are not part of a supermarket, but actual individual stores.

* You've ordered a "hard roll with butter" for breakfast.

* One time, a sea gull **** on your head.

* You've eaten at a Windmill, drunk off your ass, at 3am at least a dozen times.

* You know what a "benny" is and can pick one out at the beach.

* You've planned a local trip around ensuring you pass at least one Dunkin' Donuts.

* You're an aggressive driver.

* At least 5 people in your immediate family have asthma.

* Your drinking water should not be used for drinking.

* Your town has more water restrictions than people living in "dry" states i.e. Arizona, and Nevada.

* Potholes are as common as mosquitoes.

* You believe pigeons carry hand guns.

[kytrigger]

I won't flame you for your idea even if I don't agree with it. Although I do want to flame you for putting "FA-LAMED" in the title but won't. Chalk it up to laziness and a bad hangover.

[batmaluco]

Stuff Robin back in a cage..

no Robin in this version of Batmans universe.


:up:

[Lone Wolf]

We've been through this about a dozen times, this one doesn't make a difference. Nolan has confirmed both him and the studio are NOT interested in bringing him in the sequel, but he never said for future films. Nolan also mentioned that at the time his franchise takes place, Dick is still a little child.

[Johnny Drama]

Thanks!:up: :)

Here something even funnier!


YOU MIGHT BE FROM JERSEY IF...



* You don't understand why there aren't more 24-hour diners elsewhere in the country.

* You know what a Wawa is, and know the location of at least 15 of them.

* You think a mountain is that big freakin' hill in Atlantic Highlands.

* You know Asbury Park is no longer the mecca of East Coast resort towns.

* Even though there's a new Wal-Mart in your town, you still go to the Englishtown Auction for cheap stuff.

* You can name all the flavors of salt water taffy.

* Your car is covered with yellow-green dust in April and May.

* You buy Shop-Rite brand food at Shop-Rite.

* You can smell and know when it's low tide.

* The Jets/Giants game has started fights at your school and/or local bar.

* There are no self serve gas stations and you like it that freakin' way... "yous gotta problem wit dat?"

* You've had sex on the beach, and I'm not talking about the beverage.

* You know how to successfully handle a traffic circle.

* You know what skeeball is and you can get three 50's in a row.

* You think the Olive Garden is crap and should have never opened any restaurants in New Jersey.

* You've run out of money on the Parkway.

* You're Italian.

* You know where to get the best bagels and pizza.

* Donald Trump is mentioned at least daily in your local paper.

* You say "water" weird. (Wooder, Cawfee, Dowg, wadever).

* Even your school made good Italian subs.

* You've lived through hurricanes, nor'easters and fires, but have never seen a tornado, earthquake, tsunami or volcano.

* You can't believe MTV went to Seaside Heights.

* You know that ACME is an actual store, not just a Warner Bros.creation.

* You only go to New York City for day trips.

* You know what a "jug handle" is.

* You have mandatory recycling. Enforced by law.

* You've eaten a pork roll and cheese on a hard roll...and like it.

* You go to at least one parade at the boardwalk each year.

* You've pondered, "Maybe basketball would be more popular in New Jersey if the Nets didn't blow,"

* You can go bowling at 1:30 A.M. (with automatic scoring)!

* In high school, you worked at a Friendly's.

* Route 18 doesn't freak you out at night.

* Because your town was founded before 1776, all the restaurants, taverns and shops have "ye," "olde," and "colonial" in their names.

* You don't have to go to Red Lobster to get fresh seafood.

* You once said, "It smells like New York in here."

* You've waited for the damn drawbridge for more than 20 damn minutes.

* At least three people in your family still love Bruce Springsteen.

* There's a fruit and vegetable stand down the road.

* "Anyone who makes bad pizza can go to hell" is your attitude.

* You always use a minimum of 10 variations of the word "damn" while driving.

* You don't take any **** from anybody. Especially from someone from New York, because you live here for christ's sake and just who the hell do they think they are anyway? Invading our damn beaches and bars, they're just here for the damn summer and they think they own the damn place and....

* You've gone to the race track with twenty different daily double bets from twenty different people.

* You've spent St Patrick's day in Belmar.

* You know that there are bakeries which are not part of a supermarket, but actual individual stores.

* You've ordered a "hard roll with butter" for breakfast.

* One time, a sea gull **** on your head.

* You've eaten at a Windmill, drunk off your ass, at 3am at least a dozen times.

* You know what a "benny" is and can pick one out at the beach.

* You've planned a local trip around ensuring you pass at least one Dunkin' Donuts.

* You're an aggressive driver.

* At least 5 people in your immediate family have asthma.

* Your drinking water should not be used for drinking.

* Your town has more water restrictions than people living in "dry" states i.e. Arizona, and Nevada.

* Potholes are as common as mosquitoes.

* You believe pigeons carry hand guns.



Hahahahahaha! :up:

[raybia]

Hahahahahaha! :up:


:) :up:

[raybia]

We've been through this about a dozen times, this one doesn't make a difference. Nolan has confirmed both him and the studio are NOT interested in bringing him in the sequel, but he never said for future films. Nolan also mentioned that at the time his franchise takes place, Dick is still a little child.


I'll bet money that Dick Grayson is in the mix for future Batman films, but I'm also positive that Nolan's Batman Trilogy, (I love the sound of that!) will not include him, as well it should not.

[Two-Face]

Stuff Robin back in a cage..

no Robin in this version of Batmans universe.

Yes I agree:up:

[Lone Wolf]

I'll bet money that Dick Grayson is in the mix for future Batman fans, but I'm also positive that Nolan's Batman Trilogy, (I love the sound of that!) will not include him, as well it should not.

Agreed.

[raybia]

Agreed.


I meant, "Future Batman Films."

[Lone Wolf]

I meant, "Future Batman Films."

Either way, he should not appear what so ever.

[batmaluco]

As with everything, the answer lies somewhere in the details...
Right!

;)













:p

[Johnny Drama]

"Batman Forever was The Greaatist Batmn MovIe of al tiMe and you Are all too Stupid 2 see thAt Robin is the coolest charakter ever!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just thought Spiderfreddie should be here in spirit ;P

[StorminNorman]

Personally I think they could pull a Dark Victory and include Dick Grayson as a minor character in movie 3 and have him pull a Robin at the very end of the third movie - have the final scene be Batman swearing in Robin. Of course I dont think the series is hurt leaving Robin out (nor having Robin).

People say that Robin can't work on screen, the truth is that Robin as a character can be both very very good, and horribly, horribly tremendously bad. Sadly we have always seen the latter version of Robin translated onto the big screen so people asume he can not work.

[bdsproductions]

alright guys,give me a link to this spiderfreddies post history,i MUST read his lame-ass posts!.

[Katsuro]

alright guys,give me a link to this spiderfreddies post history,i MUST read his lame-ass posts!.

that's hard to do. He's literally had countless different usernames over the years. The most recent I saw him as was "RobinLuvsBabs" or something. Dont worry though, he'll be back. He always comes back. Just remember, he spells bad, loves Robin, and hates Nolan, so if you see those three things in a post, it's him.

[Johnny Drama]

that's hard to do. He's literally had countless different usernames over the years. The most recent I saw him as was "RobinLuvsBabs" or something. Dont worry though, he'll be back. He always comes back. Just remember, he spells bad, loves Robin, and hates Nolan, so if you see those three things in a post, it's him.

He is also a fan of the tasteless insults...

[molp]

i read goyer said that this is the year 1 one trilogy and robin dosent coem into the batman world till at least year 2

that works for me

[batmaluco]

Countless different usernames over the years, don't you, Spiderfreddie?
Sure it works for you. :) :up:

[Spider - Man]

Either way, he should not appear what so ever.

Ditto!

[Robin91939]

he should be Dick Grayson threw most of the movie his parents killed by The Joker during his rampage in Batman 2 (off-screen but referenced) he becomes Robin in the last thirty minutes.
Horrible Idea....and I am a Robin advocate.

He should be in the 3rd film (atleast Dick Grayson should be) but not like that...not like that at all.

He needs to be done perfectly if he is going to get a chance in the film series...that is, well, not.

-R

[molp]

Horrible Idea....and I am a Robin advocate.

He should be in the 3rd film (atleast Dick Grayson should be) but not like that...not like that at all.

He needs to be done perfectly if he is going to get a chance in the film series...that is, well, not.

-R


so true if he does come into the 3rd one it should be at the very very end kind of setting up the second trillogy

[bdsproductions]

hmmm....i am starting to reconsider ALOT,perhaps,i am torn between solo Batman and Batman and a ultra-dark pretty damn unfaithful Robin...cannot decide.Robin would proably take up too much screentime....

[Katsuro]

hmmm....i am starting to reconsider ALOT,perhaps,i am torn between solo Batman and Batman and a ultra-dark pretty damn unfaithful Robin...cannot decide.Robin would proably take up too much screentime....

I wouldn't say the Robin we want is entirely unfaithful. He's just different to the Robin most casual fans are presented with. The way people percieve Robin today is the way people perieved Batman before 1989. All it takes is some exposure to the more serious portrayals of the character to change peoples minds. You should see Robin in the comics now, he's pretty badass.

[bdsproductions]

hmmm,i'll check it out.i meant in personality more brooding and dark VERY like Batman.

[trustyside-kick]

Here is what I would like. Have Dick Grayson appear as a young boy (8 or 9 or however old he is in the comics when he is introduced) towards the end of the 3rd film. Show his parents' death and at the very end of the film have Bruce adopt him.

You guys may wonder why I say 8 or 9 for his age...here is why:

- I like to stick to as close to the comics as possible and even if they change how his parents die at least get his age right. It is somewhat special/symbolic/or whatever you want to call it because he is supposed to be the same as as Bruce was when his parents were killed.

- It would be at the end of the 3rd film so you would not have to worry about him becoming Robin yet and wearing the suit.

- I think Batman Forever made a huge mistake with making Robin so much older when first meeting Bruce. Obviously Bruce did not become the father figure and he did not listen to him. Yes even if Dick is younger they might get to a rough start but not with him being some huge rebel like in Batman Forever.

[StorminNorman]

IMO Dick Grayson should be 15-16. He should be a very angry dark teenager looking to take revenge on his parents killer. He is found by Batman who sees the darkness driving him and vowes to make a difference in his life. He trains him inorder to protect him, he becomes Robin.

[JLBats]

Ok, you clearly have no idea how to structure a movie since you apparently wish to randomly tack on a Robin subplot to the last act of the Joker movie having it mostly tangential rather than part of the main plot.

[trustyside-kick]

Ok, you clearly have no idea how to structure a movie since you apparently wish to randomly tack on a Robin subplot to the last act of the Joker movie having it mostly tangential rather than part of the main plot.

Who are you saying this to? Me? Or StorminNorman.

[ShadowBoxing]

he should be Dick Grayson threw most of the movie his parents killed by The Joker during his rampage in Batman 2 (off-screen but referenced) he becomes Robin in the last thirty minutes.I absolutely agree actually. Whether or not others agree, Robin IMO is a inseperable part of the Batman franchise...for me he has to be involved, and since he is a year 3 character thats where I would place him.

[trustyside-kick]

I was not disagreeing him being in the 3rd film I was disagreeing his age they suggested.

[Ronny Shade]

An old robin will not work. A robin too soon will not work.

[DAVIDYR1]

I dig the idea of a Robin sooner or later, just make it work. The coincidental thing is that little kid in Begins that says "It's you, isn't it?" has a red tee shirt with green sleeves. Coincidence? I doubt it, as it wasnt a coincidence to hear a baby crying at Gordons house when Bats came to talk to him and said 'Storms coming'.

I like the idea of a young Robin. My favorite Robin is from the Dark Knight Returns. She didnt Shiv...:)

David

[Atomic Crusader]

Blow torch in hand, now stand still....

[bdsproductions]

IMO Dick Grayson should be 15-16. He should be a very angry dark teenager looking to take revenge on his parents killer. He is found by Batman who sees the darkness driving him and vowes to make a difference in his life. He trains him inorder to protect him, he becomes Robin.

EXACTLY!.

[trustyside-kick]

Too old. Not like you will see him fight. They are signed to do 3 movies and if anything should bring him in middle but more towards end of the 3rd movie. I doubt there will be any movies past the third one cause who wants to play the same character for like 9+ years. And it would not be the same if Nolan did not continue to direct past the third one just like it would not be the same if Bale was not Batman anymore for his films.

I was just posting something like this in another thread and I will quote myself.

I can care less about when he puts on the Robin suit but should be like around 14-15...but I care about when he is introduced because there is a symoblic thing with it since he was the same age as Bruce when his parents were murdered. As well as the things he went through at that young age after it.

[El Payaso]

An old robin will not work. A robin too soon will not work.

A Robin will not work.

[trustyside-kick]

^Tough crowd. :(

[The Last Meatbag]

Id like to see Bruce asking a date out with tickets to the Flying Graysons at the end of the third

[The Kid]

batman's so lonely. He needs his robin, guys.

[trustyside-kick]

Id like to see Bruce asking a date out with tickets to the Flying Graysons at the end of the third

That is a good idea. That is probably one of the best things for them to do if they never bring Robin into the third movie.

[El Payaso]

batman's so lonely. He needs his robin, guys.

He needs therapy.

[Weapon M]

There is no reason why there should be a Robin in the foreseeable future. There is none. I mean.. Damn.

I would love to name one writer that did a good writing on Robin and took Robin away from the campy premiere he had in the comic books and tried to impliment him into the original Batman theme, and had him fit in.. Not awkwardly either.

[Weapon M]

Please name one.

[AnimeJune]

batman's so lonely. He needs his robin, guys.It always seems to me that the point of Robin was just to tone down the darkness of Batman's character by making him some sort of weird father figure to Dick. Batman would get all dark and brooding, and there would be Robin going all "gee-golly, Batman, do I have to brush my teeth after every meal?"

So no, I don't think Robin should be in the films - or not right away. I suppose at the end, MAYBE, to show that Batman's starting to heal enough to let a youngster into his life, but otherwise. Robin was there to dilute Batman's insanity....and to provide Homer Simpson with song lyrics.

"Baby on board, something something, Burt Ward!"

[Lone Wolf]

batman's so lonely. He needs his robin, guys.

Robin is the light to his darkness, yes that's true. But in this case, the sequel is probably taking place a few months after the events in Begins. Which means Bruce will still be establishing his presence as Batman to the people of Gotham, bringing in Robin like that would be to soon. It would work in a third film where he's shown at a young age as Dick Grayson, then, if a fourth film is possible they can show how he's aged a bit during the training he went under to don the mask.

[DAVIDYR1]

A relationship like Ras and Bruce had in the mountains training is how I'd see a Robin with Batman. No need for camp..no need for gay themes..I'm also fine with them leaving Batman totally alone too. I'm certainly not interested in seeing Batgirl or anything to that nature on screen again but some desire from Bats point of view to help heal a tourtured sole of a child who's also suffered as he has makes for cool continuity.
I dunno...I think it could work. Does he have to be introduced...hell no.

David

[AnimeJune]

A relationship like Ras and Bruce had in the mountains training is how I'd see a Robin with Batman. No need for camp..no need for gay themes..I'm also fine with them leaving Batman totally alone too. I'm certainly not interested in seeing Batgirl or anything to that nature on screen again but some desire from Bats point of view to help heal a tourtured sole of a child who's also suffered as he has makes for cool continuity.
I dunno...I think it could work. Does he have to be introduced...hell no.

DavidAgreed! No Batgirl! No Batgirl! Batman Forever was still entertaining (if campy), but there was no excuse for Batman & Robin. None at all.

[bdsproductions]

your right no fricken Batgirl and i actaualyl now think no Robin would be for the best and sense were geting that thats quite good.Robin i could still see working Batigrl,hell no.

[Katsuro]

There is no reason why there should be a Robin in the foreseeable future. There is none. I mean.. Damn.

I would love to name one writer that did a good writing on Robin and took Robin away from the campy premiere he had in the comic books and tried to impliment him into the original Batman theme, and had him fit in.. Not awkwardly either.

Whoever is currently writing Batman and Detective Comics, for one. Tim Drake has been awesome in these recent issues.

[Weapon M]

Whoever is currently writing Batman and Detective Comics, for one. Tim Drake has been awesome in these recent issues.


I would love to check them out.. Cause if there is a writer on the planet that is not just squeezing in Robin cause he's already there.. Like Marrying a girl despite her annooyyyingggggg sister, I am going to check it out..

I never 'got' Robin.. I mean you know, I think Robin should be actually apart of the process of batman salvaging himself before his darkness destroys him. Apart of the long road back to Peace and Salvation...

I dont think introducing him even in Part 3 would be good. I just dont like Robin, cause I want Batman to stay dark. Batman cant even get along with Superman, you think he'd get along with an annoying lil boy? Who's always outmatched by the badguys?

It's just a matter of time before we see Robin though, I would expect him in Part 3.. But I don't think we need it.. We saw Batman Forever.

[batmaluco]

batman's so lonely. He needs his robin, guys.
Batman needs some women. :up:

[Weapon M]

yep women

[StorminNorman]

A Robin will not work.
Well written any character can work - hell, with the proper story the Joker could become Batman's lover.

[StorminNorman]

Skip Batgirl - go straight to the Orical. You can continue the Babs/Grayson tension there - just dont have Babs actually working on the streets, make her the eyes and ears for the Batman from the start.

[AnimeJune]

Batman needs some women. :up:Batman needs some parents, is what he needs. Dude's a poor little rich boy sitting in his basement playing with his toys and crying about why life's unfair. Enough with the emo, Batman! Go out and save lives!

[Keyser Sushi]

Batman needs some parents, is what he needs. Dude's a poor little rich boy sitting in his basement playing with his toys and crying about why life's unfair. Enough with the emo, Batman! Go out and save lives!

Batman is not emo. Batman by way of Tim Burton is emo. But Batman is not emo.

Don't ever say that again.

[AnimeJune]

Batman is not emo. Batman by way of Tim Burton is emo. But Batman is not emo.

Don't ever say that again.I was unclear, sorry. I mean Batman with Robin is emo. You know, that whole soppy "connecting-over-loss" crap. "Gee, you saw your parents killed in front of you? So did I!" "Let's share in our pain!" :down

Batman needs solitude (and yes, the occasional woman, he's got needs), so that he can be the dark borderline insane "hero" we all know and love.

[The Kid]

Batman needs some women. :up:

of the feline type perhaps???:)

[Keyser Sushi]

I was unclear, sorry. I mean Batman with Robin is emo. You know, that whole soppy "connecting-over-loss" crap. "Gee, you saw your parents killed in front of you? So did I!" "Let's share in our pain!" :down

Batman needs solitude (and yes, the occasional woman, he's got needs), so that he can be the dark borderline insane "hero" we all know and love.

I see you've never read a Batman comic before.

[Logan Howlett]

Ok leme go through MY idea for Dick in Begins one more time.

I think that either in 2 or 3, Dick grason should be presented as somewhere around 18 or 19. He could be a young man raised by a family of circus preformers. He's been trained all of his life as acircus trapeize artist/gymnist. However, Dick does not want to go into the family buisness, he wants to pursue some other course of life, be it music, or art, or something that every teenager wants to be. Hes rebelious and headstrong, and constantly in fights over petty things, like namecalling or a dirty look. But after finding out that his father has some sort of sevier illness and wants Dick to take over the family buisness when he passes, Dick reluctantly gives in. (or perhaps forget that small part and move directly into this) Late one night Dick's family are slain while preparing for their next act in thier tralier, Dick was not with them because he blew them and the preformance off for a date with a girl. After this Dick turns inward, he is now filled with anger, and guilt. Guilt because he believes he should have been there, maybe he could have stoped it, or maybe he feels that HE should have died in their place. Now he has cosen to focus this anger to kill those responsible for his families death. He trains himself harder and faster than he ever did as a child or teenager. He mixes his gymnastic routines with what he knows of fighting, essentialy creating his own unique style. Now he dons a black (maybe black and red) biker jacket, and a black or red mask (almost resembeling Jason Todd's look when he returned), a pair of regualr (or spandex for movement) bluejeans, and black steel toed boots. He begins making his way through the criminal underworld executing his own brand of justice, and trying to find his parents murderers. At this time the local new starts doing stories on him and title him "The Robin" for his agility and grace reported by witnesses. About this time Bruce would catch wind of this and make an effort to find this guy. Perhaps Bruce does, they square off and Dick either is a good match for him, or is MUCH more than Bats expected and Dick hands his ass to him. The next time around Batman is now more prepared and returns an asskicking to him HARD! He tells Dick that he knows who he is, and why he is doing what he is doing, then offers him the oportunity to come with him, to train with him and in time find his parents killer together. For Bruce it would almost feel like getting the retrebution he never could since Joe Chill was murdered. At first Dick declines, but after realizing that A. His life in a crappy old trailer SUX! B. That He could do alot with Bruces money and C. The more training he can get the better. Now Dick is fitted with another survival suit from Wayne Enterprises such as the one Bruce made the Batsuit out of, makes a black mask to cover the basic eye (and possibly forehead area) and asks Dick what he wants as his symbol, explains why he chose the bat as his own, and also explains that the name ROBIN isn't very threatening. Dick chooses to make the name NIGHTWING and design his own symbol (resembeling more of the current Nightwing look were the symbol is not technicaly a bird) Now Dick is very threatening looking, perhaps has about shoulder length hair as many teenagers do, and it plays well with the costume, and help to conceal his facial features. About this time he and Bruce figure out who killed his parents (be it joker, two face, crime lord, etc.) and he is now faced with the choice of killing him. Batman does his best to guid him, maybe he kills him maybe he doesn't, but in the end he is even more ****ed up than before. Maybe at this time NIGHTWING decides to go his own way, fight for himself for a bit, or maybe he stays, I'm still not sure, but either way THIS idea, IMO, is very realistic and takes away all of the comic campyness of the past and completly avoids the Shumaker version of Robin as played by Chris O' Donnel.

Well, there it is, hope ya like it! :)


No one let me know what they thought of my idea.......:confused:

[Keyser Sushi]

No one let me know what they thought of my idea.......:confused:

Ever heard of paragraphs? Normally they are three to four sentences long and are used to divide a bit of writing into separate thoughts.

[Logan Howlett]

I was in a rush when I wrote this, hence the lack of paragraphing. Why, do you need me to???????

[AnimeJune]

I see you've never read a Batman comic before.Nope, never have. Well wait - I might have gotten one out of the library by accident, oh wait, that was an issue of "The Huntress". But she was the daughter of Batman, wasn't she? Heh.

[Keyser Sushi]

I was in a rush when I wrote this, hence the lack of paragraphing. Why, do you need me to???????

Not unless you want me to read it. :D

[Logan Howlett]

Ok, hope this is easier to read :)





I think that either in 2 or 3, Dick grason should be presented as somewhere around 18 or 19. He could be a young man raised by a family of circus preformers. He's been trained all of his life as acircus trapeize artist/gymnist. However, Dick does not want to go into the family buisness, he wants to pursue some other course of life, be it music, or art, or something that every teenager wants to be. Hes rebelious and headstrong, and constantly in fights over petty things, like namecalling or a dirty look. But after finding out that his father has some sort of sevier illness and wants Dick to take over the family buisness when he passes, Dick reluctantly gives in. (or perhaps forget that small part and move directly into this)

Late one night Dick's family are slain while preparing for their next act in thier tralier, Dick was not with them because he blew them and the preformance off for a date with a girl. After this Dick turns inward, he is now filled with anger, and guilt. Guilt because he believes he should have been there, maybe he could have stoped it, or maybe he feels that HE should have died in their place. Now he has cosen to focus this anger to kill those responsible for his families death.

He trains himself harder and faster than he ever did as a child or teenager. He mixes his gymnastic routines with what he knows of fighting, essentialy creating his own unique style. Now he dons a black (maybe black and red) biker jacket, and a black or red mask (almost resembeling Jason Todd's look when he returned), a pair of regualr (or spandex for movement) bluejeans, and black steel toed boots. He begins making his way through the criminal underworld executing his own brand of justice, and trying to find his parents murderers. At this time the local new starts doing stories on him and title him "The Robin" for his agility and grace reported by witnesses.

About this time Bruce would catch wind of this and make an effort to find this guy. Perhaps Bruce does, they square off and Dick either is a good match for him, or is MUCH more than Bats expected and Dick hands his ass to him. The next time around Batman is now more prepared and returns an asskicking to him HARD! He tells Dick that he knows who he is, and why he is doing what he is doing, then offers him the oportunity to come with him, to train with him and in time find his parents killer together. For Bruce it would almost feel like getting the retrebution he never could since Joe Chill was murdered. At first Dick declines, but after realizing that A. His life in a crappy old trailer SUX! B. That He could do alot with Bruces money and C. The more training he can get the better.

Now Dick is fitted with another survival suit from Wayne Enterprises such as the one Bruce made the Batsuit out of, makes a black mask to cover the basic eye (and possibly forehead area) and asks Dick what he wants as his symbol, explains why he chose the bat as his own, and also explains that the name ROBIN isn't very threatening. Dick chooses to make the name NIGHTWING and design his own symbol (resembeling more of the current Nightwing look were the symbol is not technicaly a bird) Now Dick is very threatening looking, perhaps has about shoulder length hair as many teenagers do, and it plays well with the costume, and help to conceal his facial features.

About this time he and Bruce figure out who killed his parents (be it joker, two face, crime lord, etc.) and he is now faced with the choice of killing him. Batman does his best to guid him, maybe he kills him maybe he doesn't, but in the end he is even more ****ed up than before. Maybe at this time NIGHTWING decides to go his own way, fight for himself for a bit, or maybe he stays, I'm still not sure, but either way THIS idea, IMO, is very realistic and takes away all of the comic campyness of the past and completly avoids the Shumaker version of Robin as played by Chris O' Donnel.

Well, there it is, hope ya like it!

[AnimeJune]

Ok, hope this is easier to read :)





I think that either in 2 or 3, Dick grason should be presented as somewhere around 18 or 19. He could be a young man raised by a family of circus preformers. He's been trained all of his life as acircus trapeize artist/gymnist. However, Dick does not want to go into the family buisness, he wants to pursue some other course of life, be it music, or art, or something that every teenager wants to be. Hes rebelious and headstrong, and constantly in fights over petty things, like namecalling or a dirty look. But after finding out that his father has some sort of sevier illness and wants Dick to take over the family buisness when he passes, Dick reluctantly gives in. (or perhaps forget that small part and move directly into this)

Late one night Dick's family are slain while preparing for their next act in thier tralier, Dick was not with them because he blew them and the preformance off for a date with a girl. After this Dick turns inward, he is now filled with anger, and guilt. Guilt because he believes he should have been there, maybe he could have stoped it, or maybe he feels that HE should have died in their place. Now he has cosen to focus this anger to kill those responsible for his families death.

He trains himself harder and faster than he ever did as a child or teenager. He mixes his gymnastic routines with what he knows of fighting, essentialy creating his own unique style. Now he dons a black (maybe black and red) biker jacket, and a black or red mask (almost resembeling Jason Todd's look when he returned), a pair of regualr (or spandex for movement) bluejeans, and black steel toed boots. He begins making his way through the criminal underworld executing his own brand of justice, and trying to find his parents murderers. At this time the local new starts doing stories on him and title him "The Robin" for his agility and grace reported by witnesses.

About this time Bruce would catch wind of this and make an effort to find this guy. Perhaps Bruce does, they square off and Dick either is a good match for him, or is MUCH more than Bats expected and Dick hands his ass to him. The next time around Batman is now more prepared and returns an asskicking to him HARD! He tells Dick that he knows who he is, and why he is doing what he is doing, then offers him the oportunity to come with him, to train with him and in time find his parents killer together. For Bruce it would almost feel like getting the retrebution he never could since Joe Chill was murdered. At first Dick declines, but after realizing that A. His life in a crappy old trailer SUX! B. That He could do alot with Bruces money and C. The more training he can get the better.

Now Dick is fitted with another survival suit from Wayne Enterprises such as the one Bruce made the Batsuit out of, makes a black mask to cover the basic eye (and possibly forehead area) and asks Dick what he wants as his symbol, explains why he chose the bat as his own, and also explains that the name ROBIN isn't very threatening. Dick chooses to make the name NIGHTWING and design his own symbol (resembeling more of the current Nightwing look were the symbol is not technicaly a bird) Now Dick is very threatening looking, perhaps has about shoulder length hair as many teenagers do, and it plays well with the costume, and help to conceal his facial features.

About this time he and Bruce figure out who killed his parents (be it joker, two face, crime lord, etc.) and he is now faced with the choice of killing him. Batman does his best to guid him, maybe he kills him maybe he doesn't, but in the end he is even more ****ed up than before. Maybe at this time NIGHTWING decides to go his own way, fight for himself for a bit, or maybe he stays, I'm still not sure, but either way THIS idea, IMO, is very realistic and takes away all of the comic campyness of the past and completly avoids the Shumaker version of Robin as played by Chris O' Donnel.

Well, there it is, hope ya like it!Ow, my ADD is kicking in. Is there a Coles Notes version of this? Is it so hard to summarize?

[Logan Howlett]

Yes.....yes it is......my brain....to many ideas....to many thoughts......not convert well.......overload.....

[Keyser Sushi]

Okay, to be honest, I didn't get very far, because I disagree strongly with the first paragraph. Dick needs to be a child when his parents are slain. That's what happened to Bruce, and the point is that he and Dick are the same. A child orphaned by a killer will be significantly more damaged by the event than an adult. Also, an adult would not want to be Batman's sidekick, and could not be adopted. Also, if they were both adults, the "gay" thing would immediately be raised.

[Keyser Sushi]

Ow, my ADD is kicking in. Is there a Coles Notes version of this? Is it so hard to summarize?

I have ADD too, but I can read a long post. Summarization is not a good thing, and people who read Coles Notes or Cliffs Notes are simply not interested in knowing anything.

If you're not gonna read his post, at least have a real reason other than, "oh, that was too long."

Otherwise you and I are not going to get along very well. I make longer posts than his as a matter of course.

[AnimeJune]

I have ADD too, but I can read a long post. Summarization is not a good thing, and people who read Coles Notes or Cliffs Notes are simply not interested in knowing anything.

If you're not gonna read his post, at least have a real reason other than, "oh, that was too long."

Otherwise you and I are not going to get along very well. I make longer posts than his as a matter of course.Fair enough - but I really quit reading it for a similar reason to you - I stopped caring. I don't care for fanfiction, and I don't like to read short stories on messageboards.

[Logan Howlett]

I dono, I just don't find a grown man allowing a child to fight crime very........realistic. I just don't see that happening in the Begins version. I just think my idea fits more with what Nolan would do, and how BB was played out. Makes it feel more real to me. An enraged teenager is much easier to see fighting crime.

Also, the Gay thing will ALWAYS come up, just if he's a child they'll call him Michel Jackson. Bruce lived and trained with nothing but men for years while he was away, does THAT make him gay, no, and thats why he would invite Dick, for training. To make sure he has all of the same advantages, and Gotham gets another hero instead of just a vigilanty.

[Keyser Sushi]

Fair enough - but I really quit reading it for a similar reason to you - I stopped caring. I don't care for fanfiction, and I don't like to read short stories on messageboards.

Better to just say so, then.

But I'll tell you, this is a messageboard, it's designed for sharing ideas. If you don't want to read people's ideas... why are you here?

[AnimeJune]

Better to just say so, then.

But I'll tell you, this is a messageboard, it's designed for sharing ideas. If you don't want to read people's ideas... why are you here?I'm fine with ideas - just not giant, long paragraphs of them. I realize I'm sounding like a bit of a bubblehead here, but I have a harder time reading stuff on screen then I do in print. I'll try harder, but if the story is one that I don't care for - i.e. Robin as a badass. Batman's the ultimate bad-ass, so Robin as a rebel is just going to look weak next to Bats. I'd imagine Robin as slightly more naive and optimistic to counteract Batman's determined pessimism.

[Keyser Sushi]

I dono, I just don't find a grown man allowing a child to fight crime very........realistic. I just don't see that happening in the Begins version. I just think my idea fits more with what Nolan would do, and how BB was played out. Makes it feel more real to me. An enraged teenager is much easier to see fighting crime.

Also, the Gay thing will ALWAYS come up, just if he's a child they'll call him Michel Jackson. Bruce lived and trained with nothing but men for years while he was away, does THAT make him gay, no, and thats why he would invite Dick, for training. To make sure he has all of the same advantages, and Gotham gets another hero instead of just a vigilanty.

Okay, I'm gonna post something here that I call "Robin 101." It's about as long as your post up there. If need be, I'll read yours in exchange for you reading mine. Hopefully you'll understand where I'm coming from after you've read it:


Robin should be between 13 to 14 years old. He should be a very intense, angry kid. Anybody who thinks a 13 year old boy can't carry off rage doesn't remember what it's like to be a 13 year old boy, and probably has led a very comfortable life.

A 13 year old orphan would be VERY pissed off pretty much of the time. I think that's important. A younger kid will be more dramatically affected by his parents' death (as Bruce was) and would begin his training at the age that Bruce did (in the comics). The difference is that Robin has a Batman to train under.

For people who say that Batman would never endanger a child, you miss the obvious question: suppose the kid was going to go out and try to avenge his parents regardless of what Bruce did? If Bruce couldn't stop Dick from trying to avenge his parents, then the obvious way to ensure Dick's safety is to make sure he's got the training to pull it off. Focus his rage and his guilt into something constructive, as Bruce did.

Suppose, just for a second, that Dick Grayson, teenage acrobat, is orphaned by a killer. Suppose, further, that the circus life is all Dick has ever known. He has friends there, and it's rough life, it involves a lot of travel and a lot of hard work, and he has never had a real home outside of a train car or a truck or bus or whatever they use these days. His family are acrobats. He has already been putting his life on the line every day for as long as he has been physically able to perform on the trapeze.

When his parents are gone, his usefulness to the circus is gone as well. His friends care for him and maybe he tags along with them for a while but he has no real job in the circus any longer.

Now I need you to consider. Dick is not a legal resident of ANY city. He lives on the road. He is a carnie, basically a drifter, and he is a teenager.

Allow me to remind you what it is like to be a teenage boy. You are moody. You are, sometimes, a git, and for no reason other than you woke up feeling that way that day. It's a hormonal thing. It happens.

Furthermore, in case you have never experienced the death of a loved one, let me explain to you that it is usually accompanied by a bit of anger and helplessness. And because Dick was present when it happened, he is also going to feel some survivor's guilt.

Now then. As we have established, Dick is a carnie. Therefore, he is used to having to solve his own problems. He's angry at the guy who killed his parents? No problem, the solution is to go kill the guy. He feels helpless for the first time in his life? The solution is to go do something proactive, like, let's say, hunt down his parents' killer. He feels survivor's guilt? Risking his life to avenge his parents deaths would seem to address this concern as well. Dick is going to go out into the night and try to find his parents' murderer. And he isn't going to need Batman's help to do it.

Hell, at this point he doesn't even KNOW Batman.

Now, there is no social services person coming for Dick, because he is not a legal resident of anyplace. There is nobody looking to adopt this kid. And then Bruce Wayne shows up and offers to give him a home. I think Dick is going to resist this, but he's not an adult and the people at the Circus are going to think that Bruce can give Dick a more normal life than they can.

Dick just wants to avenge his parents' deaths. And Bruce... Bruce wants to protect Dick. Bruce wants to save him. Not to make him into his sidekick. Batman works alone. Bruce wants to PROTECT THE KID.

But he can't stop Dick from trying to find his parents' murderer. He just can't. It would be a full-time job and Bruce already ha a full-time job wearing a cape. He wants to protect the innocent and among them is Dick, but he can't protect Dick AND protect everybody else at the same time. And Dick doesn't want protection. Dick is not helpless, and he is not content to stay home or go to school or do any of those things.

Bruce knows the anger that drives Dick. He wants to take that anger away from Dick, but he can't, and Dick is actually SAFER if he is where Batman can keep an eye on him; Dick is SAFER if he has been taught Keysi Fighting Method; Dick is SAFER if he has body armor and tools. Because make no mistake about it: Dick is GOING TO SEEK VENGEANCE regardless of whether Bruce helps him or not. Bruce's guidance could be the difference between a dead child and a living one. (Bruce's guidance being the force that keeps him alive, of course).

So, it IS helping him. Because without Bruce's training, Dick is going to get himself killed. And there's NOT A DAMN THING ANYBODY CAN DO ABOUT THAT.

Dick never HAD a normal life. He had a happy life with the circus, but it sure as hell wasn't NORMAL. That's kind of the point, isn't it? Dick never had a normal life. He didn't grow up in suburbia playing stickball with Billy and Tim. He grew up shoveling elephant dung and listening to drunken old clowns telling dirty jokes. He grew up with bearded ladies and triple-breasted whores, he grew up a sort of star in his own little world, learning the family trade and learning to do it right so that he would not die attempting it.

If Robin chose to be a warrior, Batman can't make him take back that choice. And the world needs heroes. A properly trained soldier is always preferable, and less a danger to himself, than one who has no idea what he is doing.

[Keyser Sushi]

I'm fine with ideas - just not giant, long paragraphs of them. I realize I'm sounding like a bit of a bubblehead here, but I have a harder time reading stuff on screen then I do in print. I'll try harder, but if the story is one that I don't care for - i.e. Robin as a badass. Batman's the ultimate bad-ass, so Robin as a rebel is just going to look weak next to Bats. I'd imagine Robin as slightly more naive and optimistic to counteract Batman's determined pessimism.

That's fair.

[Ronny Shade]

No one let me know what they thought of my idea.......:confused:

Dick Grayson will NEVER hand Batman's ass to him.

[El Payaso]

Robin is the light to his darkness, yes that's true.

I can't believe how gay that sounds.

Well written any character can work - hell, with the proper story the Joker could become Batman's lover.
http://www.collectortimes.com/2005_10/carrieDKR.jpg

^I know, but I doubt they'll choose the best here.

Batman is not emo. Batman by way of Tim Burton is emo. But Batman is not emo.

Don't ever say that again.

Tim Burton's Batman is the only one who beds the girl. Schumacher's semigay and Nolan's too girly about Rachel. Let her to slap him twice and SHE had to kiss Bruce at the end.

So don't you ever say that again.

[El Payaso]

Okay, to be honest, I didn't get very far, because I disagree strongly with the first paragraph. Dick needs to be a child when his parents are slain. That's what happened to Bruce, and the point is that he and Dick are the same. A child orphaned by a killer will be significantly more damaged by the event than an adult. Also, an adult would not want to be Batman's sidekick, and could not be adopted. Also, if they were both adults, the "gay" thing would immediately be raised.

Paedophile; they don't need to be adults for the "gay" thing.

And how many prphan kids are there, why the fixation on Dick? (dunno if the pun is intended)

[trustyside-kick]

Fixation is on Dick because people want to stay as close to the comics as they can. People one to see the first robin first.

[El Payaso]

People?

Like the magazine?

Or there's a national poll about this? Link?

[trustyside-kick]

People?

Like the magazine?

Or there's a national poll about this? Link?

No, just from what I have seen. Also from what people have told me and what I prefer as well. Not just people in these forums but outside that I know as well. Meh.

[El Payaso]

People that YOU know...

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH...

Tell them 'Hi' from the SHH.

[trustyside-kick]

I said not only people from in the forums but also out of...so I said I have seen a lot of people in these forums aiming at the same thing as well. Maybe I should have rephrased what I said in my first reply about this "fixation on Dick" that you mentioned.

[El Payaso]

You should see how many people here don't want a Robin for a starter.

[trustyside-kick]

You should see how many people here don't want a Robin for a starter.

I know a lot of people do not. But also a lot of people do as long as done certain ways.

[El Payaso]

That's why we need more than 'the people I know in my life' opinions.

[trustyside-kick]

When I was replying and saying " I know a lot of people do not. But also a lot of people do as long as done certain ways." I was referring to the people in the forums.

Just out of curiousity...what are you reasons for not wanting Robin in?

The only I can think of is that technically I do not believe the movies are like 1 year apart from eachother. And Batman should be alone for some time before Robin is brought in. But we will see in the sequel how far apart it is from the first and same with the third in the future.

[El Payaso]

There's plenty of Robin threads where poeple have posted reasons.

[trustyside-kick]

There's plenty of Robin threads where poeple have posted reasons.

I said I was curious about your reasons. Not other people's. I said mine above for when it comes to the Nolan films. What about you? Cause you seem to be so against Robin being in the 2nd or 3rd film.

[El Payaso]

I have posted my reason where i told you.

[trustyside-kick]

I have posted my reason where i told you.

:confused:

In this thread? :eek:

Lemme look around then.

[trustyside-kick]

Looked around...don't see you telling reasons for the hate on Robin being introduced into the Nolan films.

[StorminNorman]

I can't believe how gay that sounds.


http://www.collectortimes.com/2005_10/carrieDKR.jpg

^I know, but I doubt they'll choose the best here.


Are you saying that Kelly was the best Robin? I actually found that to be one of the biggest weaknesses of DKR.

[StorminNorman]

Paedophile; they don't need to be adults for the "gay" thing.

And how many prphan kids are there, why the fixation on Dick? (dunno if the pun is intended)
How many orphan kids out there watched their parents die and are now vowing to find and punish their murder no matter what. The fact that Dick is simply an orphan is not what makes the character work in this situation, but the fact that he is so similiar to Bruce Wayne.

[El Payaso]

How many orphan kids out there watched their parents die and are now vowing to find and punish their murder no matter what.

Being raised by a single playboy millionaire? None.

Maybe in Michael Jackson's mansion.

The fact that Dick is simply an orphan is not what makes the character work in this situation, but the fact that he is so similiar to Bruce Wayne.

In fact I've never seen the character actually working so i don't know.

[trustyside-kick]

How many orphan kids out there watched their parents die and are now vowing to find and punish their murder no matter what. The fact that Dick is simply an orphan is not what makes the character work in this situation, but the fact that he is so similiar to Bruce Wayne.

That an also same age when it happened to Bruce.

[StorminNorman]

In fact I've never seen the character actually working so i don't know.

Thats because on screen the character has not been presented the way I am suggesting, however in other forms of media the character has worked very well. In Dark Victory it seems very reasonable for Batman to take in Dick and train him, a situation like that would work on film.

[El Payaso]

To corrupt a child and involve him in a wacko personal fight against crime? Reasonable?

[trustyside-kick]

Thats because on screen the character has not been presented the way I am suggesting, however in other forms of media the character has worked very well. In Dark Victory it seems very reasonable for Batman to take in Dick and train him, a situation like that would work on film.

Was cool how Dick helped him solve one of the Hang Man puzzle things. Plus the end of DV with him was pretty cool too.

[trustyside-kick]

To corrupt a child and involve him in a wacko personal fight against crime? Reasonable?

Dick wanted to do that though.

[AnimeJune]

Dick wanted to do that though.True - but teenagers always want to do stupid, crazy things when they're angry. Batman, by encouraging it, is not being very responsible.

[El Payaso]

Dick wanted to do that though.
Yes and if he wants to do crack then I give him some?

[trustyside-kick]

True - but teenagers always want to do stupid, crazy things when they're angry. Batman, by encouraging it, is not being very responsible.

He was 8 not a teenager when he decided that.

[AnimeJune]

He was 8 not a teenager when he decided that.And being eight instead of 18 makes him smarter HOW?

[trustyside-kick]

Yes and if he wants to do crack then I give him some?

Only on Tuesday nights between the hours of 9:45pm and 10:05pm. :up:

Lol jk.

[trustyside-kick]

And being eight instead of 18 makes him smarter HOW?

I never said it was. I was just saying that he was 8 cause you mentioned teenager wanted to do stupid things. :P

[StorminNorman]

To corrupt a child and involve him in a wacko personal fight against crime? Reasonable?

No, however if the child is already (what you say is) "corrupted", already dedicated to fight injustice then it would be more tha nresonable to take him in and train him. Atleast with guidence and training Bruce can make sure he knows what he is doing and can watch out for him.

[StorminNorman]

True - but teenagers always want to do stupid, crazy things when they're angry. Batman, by encouraging it, is not being very responsible.

Batman would have little choice, (in my version of a "Nolan Robin") Dick Grayson would already vow to avenge his parents, with or without Bruce's help.

[batmaluco]

of the feline type perhaps???:)
Precisely!

[tw9876z]

I actually highly suspect he will be in number 3. Why? dent becomes two-face, we probably will have a long halloween scenerio going on in the movie and the sequel comic had robin. I suspect taht in number 3 batman will need something to be part of the movie, with two face probably doing what he does in TLH throwing in dick grayson will give batman more screen time, he needs a reason in the films, i wouldnt be surprised if catwoman appeared in the second to be a consistent love interest throughout the films, but with dent going bad batman would want redemption and robin would be part of that. I think robin will be the climax of the series ending there, and if it goes on I would like to see robin get killed. This series needs continuity, unlike the old. Also this series wants batman to have emotional dealings with whats happening, not just new villians appearing. This series will try to do continuity properly and the team working on it seems to care which gives me faith in the future films

[El Payaso]

No, however if the child is already (what you say is) "corrupted", already dedicated to fight injustice then it would be more tha nresonable to take him in and train him. Atleast with guidence and training Bruce can make sure he knows what he is doing and can watch out for him.



So if a 14 y.o. girl is totally determined to be prostitute, i should train her because she's doing it anyway? At least with guidance she will choose the right clients and with training she could succeed as a satisfying whore??

[Keyser Sushi]

Tim Burton's Batman is the only one who beds the girl. Schumacher's semigay and Nolan's too girly about Rachel. Let her to slap him twice and SHE had to kiss Bruce at the end.

So don't you ever say that again.

You don't think Bruce bagged those two supermodels he was dating in BB? If he didn't do the deed, don't you think that would go against the image he's trying to project?

He didn't do Rachel because he cared about her and he knew he couldn't commit. Call that girly if you want. I call it honest.


True - but teenagers always want to do stupid, crazy things when they're angry. Batman, by encouraging it, is not being very responsible.


You didn't read that thing I posted. Suppose for a moment that Batman doesn't help Dick avenge the Flying Graysons. How's he going to keep Dick from trying to do it on his own?

Yes and if he wants to do crack then I give him some?

Of course not, but you can't lock him in his room and keep him under constant surveillance 24x7x365. How do you keep a kid from doing crack? You teach him the truth about drugs. And you don't shy away from talking to him about it, you don't stunt his social life. You teach him the difference between right and wrong. TEACH.


So if a 14 y.o. girl is totally detrermined to be prostitute, i should train her because she's doing it anyway? At least with guidance she will choose the right clients and with training she could succeed as a whore??


Well, how exactly do you propose to stop her from being a whore? You gonna chain her up in her room? What are going to do to stop her? In my opinion a girl who wants to sell her body for money is already damaged. I don't think you can fix her. Life is not a Julia Roberts movie.

For that matter, she's better off turning tricks with a "respectable" escort service than she is standing on a street corner and giving her money to a pimp who beats the everloving crap out of her on a semi-regular basis, isn't she?

[StorminNorman]

So if a 14 y.o. girl is totally determined to be prostitute, i should train her because she's doing it anyway? At least with guidance she will choose the right clients and with training she could succeed as a satisfying whore??

There is a slight difference there, however if you yourself were a master hooker and you saw a piece of yourself in this girl and think she can be a great hooker than I assume yes, you would train her - give her guidance, etc. You are asking what a sane (or reasonably sane) person would do, I do not think Bruce Wayne exactly qualifies.

[trustyside-kick]

So if a 14 y.o. girl is totally determined to be prostitute, i should train her because she's doing it anyway? At least with guidance she will choose the right clients and with training she could succeed as a satisfying whore??

Your examples are way too exaggerated.

[El Payaso]

You don't think Bruce bagged those two supermodels he was dating in BB? If he didn't do the deed, don't you think that would go against the image he's trying to project?

No, the image doesn't imply to do the deed. Thats' why Bruce Wayne is supposed to drink ginger ale as champagne and not actual champagne in the comics.

In BB Wayne is not even interested in learning polo, so it's not strange he used those models just to project an image.

When Rachel saw him with the models he went all girly and shy about it. That's probably not emo but it's on the way.

In best cases we don't know about Bale's Bruce but we do about Keats' Bruce.

He didn't do Rachel because he cared about her and he knew he couldn't commit. Call that girly if you want. I call it honest.

Girly... and very Dawson's Creek.

For that matter it was you calling Burton's Batman an emo and that versioon was even more far than being one that this... honest Bruce Wayne.

You didn't read that thing I posted. Suppose for a moment that Batman doesn't help Dick avenge the Flying Graysons. How's he going to keep Dick from trying to do it on his own?

If Dick's is underage, the answer is quite simple: Orphanage.

It is clear that Bruce has no time for raising/teaching a kid.

Of course not, but you can't lock him in his room and keep him under constant surveillance 24x7x365. How do you keep a kid from doing crack? You teach him the truth about drugs. And you don't shy away from talking to him about it, you don't stunt his social life. You teach him the difference between right and wrong. TEACH.

Again, the kid's orphan, the kid goes to an orphanage. That's how society keeps kids away from drugs and streets. I don't see judges giving them to playboys as the great solution.

Being Bruce Wayne a billionaire, he can pay for special attention for Dick and not training him to risk his life and envision life as a training for revenge.

For what we know about comic books and Batman history, Bruce Wayne only TEACHES how to become a young Batman, even when the kid has no legal age to decide about his own life. Which make this so ilegal and shady. Bruce Wayne doesn't teach Dick how to have a normal life and not doomed and eternally tied to revenge like his own.

Well, how exactly do you propose to stop her from being a whore? You gonna chain her up in her room? What are going to do to stop her?

Orphanage. Third time.

And if I was Bruce Wayne, paying a special care for her until she's mature enough. After that, if she still thinks prostitution ios the way, well, she knows. I can try to talk to her though, but no more.

For that matter, she's better off turning tricks with a "respectable" escort service than she is standing on a street corner and giving her money to a pimp who beats the everloving crap out of her on a semi-regular basis, isn't she?

Even if that would be better (as in less bad), if I encourage her in some way to sell her body, then I'm corrupting her. The way Bruce does with Dick. And btw, morally it is not better to be an expensive whore than a cheap whore.

Taking advantage of a person who has no maturity enough to make a resposible decision in order to train him/her for an ilegal activity (being a whore or Batman) is corruption, ilegal, immoral and reprehensible. And training some underage kid for such purposes is taking advantage no matter if the kid allow it or not because since he/she is underage has no legal or ethical stature to decide for Him/herself.

[El Payaso]

There is a slight difference there, however if you yourself were a master hooker and you saw a piece of yourself in this girl and think she can be a great hooker than I assume yes, you would train her - give her guidance, etc. You are asking what a sane (or reasonably sane) person would do, I do not think Bruce Wayne exactly qualifies.

Bruce Wayne a reasonable person? To think that you can fix society up by dressing as a bat in the middle of a city that cannot be more corrupted?

If I was a master hooker and I'd do that to an underage it is ilegal and immoral no matter what.

[El Payaso]

Your examples are way too exaggerated.

Are as exaggerated as training a 12 y.o. kid to fight crime with no guns and in a multicolor suit.

[trustyside-kick]

Who cares about the system in real life with the orphanages and crap. Robin exists period. DC created him, his origin, everything. Accept that.

[trustyside-kick]

Are as exaggerated as training a 12 y.o. kid to fight crime with no guns and in a multicolor suit.

I knew you were going to hit me back with that exact phrase. It is a freaking comic man. Fiction...stop acting like it has to be so damn realistic.

[StorminNorman]

Bruce Wayne a reasonable person? To think that you can fix society up by dressing as a bat in the middle of a city that cannot be more corrupted?

If I was a master hooker and I'd do that to an underage it is ilegal and immoral no matter what.

I believe that was the point I was trying to make - you are looking at this from a resonable person's POV, Bruce would not be.

In reality it would be - but morality changes from person to person - a master hooker probably would not see her act as immoral (and in this example would not think it was immoral) so that is not a reasonalbe argument.

[El Payaso]

Who cares about the system in real life with the orphanages and crap. Robin exists period. DC created him, his origin, everything. Accept that.

Superhero movies are mostly campy and crappy. Should I accept that if Batman movies are crap?

I knew you were going to hit me back with that exact phrase. It is a freaking comic man. Fiction...stop acting like it has to be so damn realistic.

Ask that to Nolan. He's doing this as realistic as he can.

I believe that was the point I was trying to make - you are looking at this from a resonable person's POV, Bruce would not be.


Even so, it would be reasonable to carry a gun or to act with some extent of corruption to fight crime at Gotham City. But Bruce Wayne makes a decision of not killing and respect laws. Under that POV, raising Robin as a vigilante would be against what Bruce wants Batman to represents.

And this kind of kid corruption would be ilegal no matter what. Batman with a 12 y.o. kid would force the Police Department to arrest him under several charges.

In reality it would be - but morality changes from person to person - a master hooker probably would not see her act as immoral (and in this example would not think it was immoral) so that is not a reasonalbe argument.

No, but it is for a guy like Bruce who acts under law.

[trustyside-kick]

Gah just because Nolan said he wants to make it realistic does not mean you gotta take it that far. I have said this a million times along with others. People are taking this realism thing too far.

[StorminNorman]

Even so, it would be reasonable to carry a gun or to act with some extent of corruption to fight crime at Gotham City. But Bruce Wayne makes a decision of not killing and respect laws. Under that POV, raising Robin as a vigilante would be against what Bruce wants Batman to represents.

Bruce Wayne respects the laws? LOL

And this kind of kid corruption would be ilegal no matter what. Batman with a 12 y.o. kid would force the Police Department to arrest him under several charges.

No, but it is for a guy like Bruce who acts under law.

I am not talking about a 12 y.o. kid, but a 16 y.o. kid. Also I dont see how the police would ever see these two in action, except for very rare occurences.

Bruce Wayne is a vigilante, thus he does not live under the law.

[El Payaso]

OR you're taking this 'fantasy' concept too far.

[trustyside-kick]

No. I am all for making it realistic but there are some things that just should not be changed. There are things that should be changed but not to the extreme. You are talking about liquidating an entire character's existence for the sake of "realism for the film".

[El Payaso]

Bruce Wayne respects the laws? LOL



I am not talking about a 12 y.o. kid, but a 16 y.o. kid. Also I dont see how the police would ever see these two in action, except for very rare occurences.

Bruce Wayne is a vigilante, thus he does not live under the law.

Even so, he respects some basic moral aspects. No killing, etc.

If you can't see police worried about an underage kid, it's your imagination and enjoy it. But I don't think Batman could go away with that with no further problem.

[El Payaso]

No. I am all for making it realistic but there are some things that just should not be changed. There are things that should be changed but not to the extreme. You are talking about liquidating an entire character's existence for the sake of "realism for the film".

For a starter I'm talking about how lame the character is, realism or not.

Then there's the basic notions of realism.

[trustyside-kick]

To add to my previous post. I am not even saying have Robin in the suit and fighting. I am saying at the end of the third have his parents get killed, Bruce take him in, and begin his training. Hell if they wanted...the training they show first could be the detective stuff.

[StorminNorman]

Even so, he respects some basic moral aspects. No killing, etc.

If you can't see police worried about an underage kid, it's your imagination and enjoy it. But I don't think Batman could go away with that with no further problem.
I dont think Bruce Wayne would find this entirely immoral. Clearly he doesnt it since he has done it several times in the comic world. Also he has been shown to bend his morals - look at the chase scene in Begins.

The Police make immoral deals all the time, give a child rapist 5 years because he testifies against 4 of his buds. Let a small time thief go because he can bring in a big fish. Do you think the honest police in Gotham would give up a partner in Batman just because he has a partner (a willing partner) who is 16?

[El Payaso]

I dont think Bruce Wayne would find this entirely immoral. Clearly he doesnt it since he has done it several times in the comic world. Also he has been shown to bend his morals - look at the chase scene in Begins.

The Police make immoral deals all the time, give a child rapist 5 years because he testifies against 4 of his buds. Let a small time thief go because he can bring in a big fish. Do you think the honest police in Gotham would give up a partner in Batman just because he has a partner (a willing partner) who is 16?

Under your POV, Batman would not only become corruption but would perpetuate corruption. Exactly what he's trying to fight.

He would became a child-corruptor just because it's useful for his cause to have an assistant and supposedly, a heir for his mission.

He would perpetuate corruption by trusting the legal staments such as Police and Justice Cortus would turn a blind eye over his kid corruption activity since - after all - they do it anyway in cases like the one you describe.

That is like thinking Batman would consider a good thing to use a gun himself because he's killing criminals and not innocent people.

[StorminNorman]

Under your POV, Batman would not only become corruption but would perpetuate corruption. Exactly what he's trying to fight.

He would became a child-corruptor just because it's useful for his cause to have an assistant and supposedly, a heir for his mission.

He would perpetuate corruption by trusting the legal staments such as Police and Justice Cortus would turn a blind eye over his kid corruption activity since - after all - they do it anyway in cases like the one you describe.

That is like thinking Batman would consider a good thing to use a gun himself because he's killing criminals and not innocent people.

You are using the word corruption, Batman would not see it as so.

[El Payaso]

You are using the word corruption, Batman would not see it as so.

And some killer would see murder as an act of purification.

But it is murder.

[StorminNorman]

And some killer would see murder as an act of purification.

But it is murder.

You are losing the point completely. The reality of the matter means diddly here, it is Batman's view that matters. Batman would see nothing wrong here, simple as that.

[El Payaso]

I'm saying that it would be child corruption, not that Batman would think it's child corruption.

In terms of what people do on the line of legality, the doer's opinion counts for nothing further the legal and moral conceptions.

People of Gotham, judges and police dept. don't have to agree with him as they don't use to agree with killers and paedophioles who use brilliant euphemisms for their ilegal activities.

And if Batman don't see that as corruption then he's on his way to become another criminal element and wouldn't be better than what he fights.

I kill randomly because of money or I kill randomly in the name of God. It is murder. I am a murderer in spite I think 'the voices' were right.

[Ronny Shade]

Dick Grayson's life is already pretty damn corrupted by the time he ever even meets Bruce Wayne.

[El Payaso]

Dick Grayson's life is already pretty damn corrupted by the time he ever even meets Bruce Wayne.

So if a guy has incurable Aids it is ok (and/or legal) for me to shoot him?

[trustyside-kick]

When Bruce sees what has happened to Dick he sees himself. There are a lot of similarities they share. I loved Dark Victory and if I had my graphic novel with me I would quote some lines. Loeb wrote some parts of Bruce thinking about what he was doing that fits either approach as to why he is doing it (realism or comic/fantasy).

[Ronny Shade]

Legality has nothing to do with what batman does.

And if Robin is going to go avenge his parents regardless, its better he has training and experience on his side.

[El Payaso]

I could tell a tender story of why a guy ends killing his wife.

It is murder no matter the reasons.

Batman training a child and condemn him for a life under a mask deprived of a normal healthy lifestyle it is corruption no matter what Batman could have thought/felt when he saw Dick's parents murder.

[trustyside-kick]

El Payaso have you read Dark Victory? Did you not like everything from the Flying Graysons on with Robin? There are parts where Bruce says why he does so and so. And with that being in continuity DC has accepted Loeb's telling of the story the origin of the character and all that jazz.

[El Payaso]

Legality has nothing to do with what batman does.


Then why he doesn't kill?

And how is that Gordon acceopts to work with him if he could face the fact that Batman would act beyond what he (Gordon) defends?

And if Robin is going to go avenge his parents regardless, its better he has training and experience on his side.

Since you don't seem to read the prebvious posts, I'll repeat myself.

If a 14 y.o. girl is determined to become a whore, encouraging or training her is immoral and ilegal no matter what the underage kid thinks. And there's a reason of why society doesn't allow to underage kids to make such decisions.

[El Payaso]

El Payaso have you read Dark Victory? Did you not like everything from the Flying Graysons on with Robin? There are parts where Bruce says why he does so and so. And with that being in continuity DC has accepted Loeb's telling of the story the origin of the character and all that jazz.

DC accepting things does nothing for how the basic reality and legality work.

Now if you could post such arguments, we can discuss them

[trustyside-kick]

If a 14 y.o. girl is determined to become a whore, encouraging or training her is immoral and ilegal no matter what the underage kid thinks. And there's a reason of why society doesn't allow to underage kids to make such decisions.

That example was exaggerated but good but now when you compare that to what he said specifically that makes that one nothing.

Dick will try to get vengeance and it is safer for him to have training so he knows what he is doing instead of having no training and getting killed. There are several outcomes when it comes to fighting: death, injury, or victory. If Dick had no training he would gain the first two and not victory.

[Ronny Shade]

Reasoning by analogy only works when the analogies are relevant. Your analogies are terrible.

[trustyside-kick]

If you want to look at what my previous post is and comeback with the prostitue thing saying the possible results then let me save you the time. The most rare occasion for a girl become a prostitute is being killed somehow. Fighting? it is the most common result when it comes to fighting criminals.

[StorminNorman]

El Payso - Batman is not exactly a great guy, he stomps on peoples write to due process and uses torture at times to get what he wants. Trying to say Robin doesn't work because having a kid sidekick is morally wrong wont cut it.

[El Payaso]

Reasoning by analogy only works when the analogies are relevant. Your analogies are terrible.

Please explain why or I could go 'and your posts suck' as my only defense.

If you want to look at what my previous post is and comeback with the prostitue thing saying the possible results then let me save you the time. The most rare occasion for a girl become a prostitute is being killed somehow. Fighting? it is the most common result when it comes to fighting criminals.

We don't know what the specific results are for a girl who wants to become a prostitute. But we do know that traininn a underage girl for that is ilegal and immoral no matter what the results will be.

El Payso - Batman is not exactly a great guy, he stomps on peoples write to due process and uses torture at times to get what he wants. Trying to say Robin doesn't work because having a kid sidekick is morally wrong wont cut it.

It will cut it when Nolan spends half a movie explaining why Batman acts morally even when he's technically out of laws.

Robin would be more than just 'a method' of obtaining things. It would be corruption over the years.

That's why Gordon accepts to work with him, because he sees how Batman acts differently than a corrupter or any other kind of criminal.

[Keyser Sushi]

No, the image doesn't imply to do the deed. Thats' why Bruce Wayne is supposed to drink ginger ale as champagne and not actual champagne in the comics.

Yes, but he still has to act drunk after he's slugged an assload of ginger ale. That's an old Dean Martin trick, by the way. Apple Juice instead of whiskey. Ginger Ale instead of champaigne.

I think if Bruce dates those two models and he doesn't bop them, word is going to get around that Bruce isn't interested in doing the dirty boogie, and that might hurt his image.

In BB Wayne is not even interested in learning polo, so it's not strange he used those models just to project an image.

Yes, but they have mouths. You think they aren't gonna tell their friends, "we dated Bruce Wayne... yeah he's a total hunk, but when we tried to get him into a manage a trois, he totally shut us down. Did he lose his dick while he was missing for seven years? Is he gay?"

When Rachel saw him with the models he went all girly and shy about it. That's probably not emo but it's on the way.

Whatever.

In best cases we don't know about Bale's Bruce but we do about Keats' Bruce.

Fair enough.

Girly... and very Dawson's Creek.

I wouldn't know. Never watched it.

For that matter it was you calling Burton's Batman an emo and that versioon was even more far than being one that this... honest Bruce Wayne.

I disagree. Burton's Batman wasn't doing what he did out of a sense of social responsibility. He was doing it because he was pissed that his mommy and daddy got shot. Keaton's Batman was haunted. i.e., emo.

Bale's Batman started out for those reasons, but made a careful and pointed decision that what he was doing had to be beyond that - he wasn't just a vigilante. He was risking his life not to make himself feel better, but to protect the innocent. I.E., noble, not emo.

If Dick's is underage, the answer is quite simple: Orphanage.

And how would the orphanage prevent Dick from running away and going after the guy who clipped his parents?

It is clear that Bruce has no time for raising/teaching a kid.

Unless he's raising/teaching the kid how to be a master crime-fighter.

Again, the kid's orphan, the kid goes to an orphanage. That's how society keeps kids away from drugs and streets.

Must be nice to be that naive. You think kids who go to orphanages don't get into crime or drugs? Where are you from, anyway, Pleasantville?

I don't see judges giving them to playboys as the great solution.

I have a question for you now: what state was this TRAVELLING CARNIE a legal resident of? Where did his parents get their mail? You have to realize these guys are on the road 365 days a year. I don't think there's a social services organization that applies to gypsy children. Nobody's coming to take little Dickie Grayson to an orphanage.

Being Bruce Wayne a billionaire, he can pay for special attention for Dick and not training him to risk his life and envision life as a training for revenge.

Dick envisions life that way before he ever meets Bruce. The damage was done to Dick when he saw his parents get killed. You don't think that has an effect on a kid? You think he's just gonna forget about it?

For what we know about comic books and Batman history, Bruce Wayne only TEACHES how to become a young Batman, even when the kid has no legal age to decide about his own life. Which make this so ilegal and shady. Bruce Wayne doesn't teach Dick how to have a normal life and not doomed and eternally tied to revenge like his own.

Ahh, there's Emo Batman. :( Batman's not doomed or eternally tied to revenge. Batman made a choice to fight injustice and protect the innocent. Batman is doing a noble thing. Dick has the ability to make the same choice. While legally Dick is too young to make that choice, realistically speaking, he has a functioning brain and he makes that choice outside of what is legal or illegal.

Orphanage. Third time.

Doesn't apply to gypsies. Again.

And if I was Bruce Wayne, paying a special care for her until she's mature enough. After that, if she still thinks prostitution ios the way, well, she knows. I can try to talk to her though, but no more.

What is this "special care" you speak of that is going to keep a girl from having sex for money? Where's the switch that magically turns ho's into good girls? And talk is cheap. 99% of the time it's also useless. Witness this discussion going around and around despite the fact that I am clearly right.

Even if that would be better (as in less bad), if I encourage her in some way to sell her body, then I'm corrupting her.

The scenario you originally presented had it that she already was determined to be a whore. A 14 year old girl doesn't need any adult encouragement to become a whore, she can just go out and BE a whore. There's no classes you have to take or anything.

The way Bruce does with Dick.

No, I think the guy who killed the Flying Graysons corrupted Dick. Bruce teaches Dick the noble and efficient way to do what he wants to do, instead of getting dead.

And btw, morally it is not better to be an expensive whore than a cheap whore.

I never said it was morally better. But it is SAFER to be an expensive whore than a cheap one. A cheap whore gets beaten and gets diseases and has to deal with pimps and low-class johns. An expensive whore has a madam and works in the relative safety of a whorehouse instead of, say, a rund-down streetcorner in the middle of no-man's land.

If a person is determined to ruin their life, there's often little you can do to stop them. However, sometimes you can provide them with a less dangerous road. Which is morally better than leaving them to rot.

Taking advantage of a person who has no maturity enough to make a resposible decision in order to train him/her for an ilegal activity (being a whore or Batman) is corruption, ilegal, immoral and reprehensible. And training some underage kid for such purposes is taking advantage no matter if the kid allow it or not because since he/she is underage has no legal or ethical stature to decide for Him/herself.

The law and reality are often very different. Legally, a child is not old enough to make his or her own decisions. In reality, they usually do it anyway. That's why it's important to teach kids about right and wrong from a young age. You can't be with them every moment and they have to make decisions for themselves when they're at school or out with friends. They have to make life-changing decisions the first time somebody offers them a toke. Are you going to say a child has no legal or ethical stature to decide whether or not to take that toke? I can see that conversation:

"Here, take a hit."
"Hold on, I gotta call my Mom and find out if it's okay."

Remember that Dick is a carnie who grew up in the instrinsically unwholesome environment of a travelling circus. Remember that he worked WITHOUT A NET, on a TRAPEZE, as a CHILD. Risking his life is something he has done every day since he's been physically capable of performing. But he's been TRAINED to know what to do, so he doesn't have to be out there hanging from the trapeze going, "Mom, should I wait until the full extension to let go, or should I let go now? Will I die if I hit the floor?"

Kids may not be adults, but they aren't morons, and their lives are usually complicated. You seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that it's the other way around.

[Keyser Sushi]

We don't know what the specific results are for a girl who wants to become a prostitute. But we do know that traininn a underage girl for that is ilegal and immoral no matter what the results will be.

Yes, but you take an overly simplistic view of the world. The heaviest moral dilemmas have no clear-cut answer.

It will cut it when Nolan spends half a movie explaining why Batman acts morally even when he's technically out of laws.

That's easy, chief. There's a difference between "Legal and illegal" and "right and wrong." Laws are designed to govern right and wrong, but in reality few people are guided by law as much as they are by their personal sense of right and wrong. What Batman does is never legal, but it is almost always right.

[trustyside-kick]

I cannot believe one of the things being argued is Bruce not banging those two models. Who gives a damn?

[Ronny Shade]

Please explain why or I could go 'and your posts suck' as my only defense.

You compare "corrupting" Dick Grayson to prostituting a young girl and killing people. That's totally not the same. What good comes of prostituting a young girl? not much. Some money, a couple of guys get their rocks off. that's all. What good comes of murder? hardly any. What good comes of teaching a young angry kid with murderous rage how to to keep that rage in check and how to stop the evil that happened to him from happening to others? Lots.

[trustyside-kick]

We don't know what the specific results are for a girl who wants to become a prostitute. But we do know that traininn a underage girl for that is ilegal and immoral no matter what the results will be.

Did you read my post before that? I did not want to edit it and put what you just replied to in it cause it was after posting it and I noticed a trend of quick replies going on.

How can you say that training Dick was worse then Dick trying to avenge his parents on his on with rage and no training.

That example was exaggerated but good but now when you compare that to what he said specifically that makes that one nothing.

Dick will try to get vengeance and it is safer for him to have training so he knows what he is doing instead of having no training and getting killed. There are several outcomes when it comes to fighting: death, injury, or victory. If Dick had no training he would gain the first two and not victory.

[Gothams Finest]

Robin shouldn't have even been created. He sucks, Batman doesn't need him. In fact, Batman is ten times better without Robin.

[trustyside-kick]

Do not make a comment like that unless you are going to say something valid to back it up please.

[Keyser Sushi]

Robin shouldn't have even been created. He sucks, Batman doesn't need him. In fact, Batman is ten times better without Robin.

Kid, please don't pollute our very intelligent thread with your three-legged goat of a thought. Get out of here, n00b.

[Ronny Shade]

Its never been about keeping Dick Grayson safe. if Bruce wanted to keep Dick Grayson safe, he'd get him a good strict foster home to grow up in. It's the Batman who wants an ally, a protege, someone to assist him, another pair of eyes, another pair of arms, another Batman should he die one night, someone strong, who has the motivation, the anger, the drive. Dick Grayson is all these things. Someone impressionable, trustworthy, a fast learner, and who will be loyal. Dick Grayson is all these things. Someone who shares his pain, shares his motivation, reminds him of himself. Dick Grayson is all these things. That is why there is a Robin.

[El Payaso]

Yes, but he still has to act drunk after he's slugged an assload of ginger ale. That's an old Dean Martin trick, by the way. Apple Juice instead of whiskey. Ginger Ale instead of champaigne.

That's why I say the top models are just an image.

He acts drunk, he is not.

He acts womanizer, he is not.

I think if Bruce dates those two models and he doesn't bop them, word is going to get around that Bruce isn't interested in doing the dirty boogie, and that might hurt his image.

Yes, but they have mouths. You think they aren't gonna tell their friends, "we dated Bruce Wayne... yeah he's a total hunk, but when we tried to get him into a manage a trois, he totally shut us down. Did he lose his dick while he was missing for seven years? Is he gay?"

Which would be perfect to disguise his Bat-personality. Bruce is gay, he can't be Batman. Or he is impotent.

That's why he doesn't care about being an a^^hole to all of the people he knows at his birthday.

I disagree. Burton's Batman wasn't doing what he did out of a sense of social responsibility. He was doing it because he was pissed that his mommy and daddy got shot. Keaton's Batman was haunted. i.e., emo.

Bale's Batman started out for those reasons, but made a careful and pointed decision that what he was doing had to be beyond that - he wasn't just a vigilante. He was risking his life not to make himself feel better, but to protect the innocent. I.E., noble, not emo.

Noble is a contradiction for being emo?

Didn't know.

And how would the orphanage prevent Dick from running away and going after the guy who clipped his parents?

And how would Bruce Wayne prevent Dick from running away and killing the guy who clipped his parents?

Orphanage are not 100% secure. nothing in this Earth is. But Bruce isn't either. No Cort in the world thinks a bachelor womanizer is better option than orphanage.

Unless he's raising/teaching the kid how to be a master crime-fighter.


Must be nice to be that naive. You think kids who go to orphanages don't get into crime or drugs? Where are you from, anyway, Pleasantville?

And what citry do you live where people with traumas dresses as bats and raises underage orphans as a better way to reach their goals of revenge instead the regular methods?

I have a question for you now: what state was this TRAVELLING CARNIE a legal resident of? Where did his parents get their mail? You have to realize these guys are on the road 365 days a year. I don't think there's a social services organization that applies to gypsy children. Nobody's coming to take little Dickie Grayson to an orphanage.

After their parent's killing I'd say Dick would stop forcedly to wander through the country.

Dick envisions life that way before he ever meets Bruce. The damage was done to Dick when he saw his parents get killed. You don't think that has an effect on a kid? You think he's just gonna forget about it?

Please, read the thread. I'm not gonna post examples for the third time.

Ahh, there's Emo Batman. :( Batman's not doomed or eternally tied to revenge. Batman made a choice to fight injustice and protect the innocent. Batman is doing a noble thing. Dick has the ability to make the same choice. While legally Dick is too young to make that choice, realistically speaking, he has a functioning brain and he makes that choice outside of what is legal or illegal.

You answered perfectly yourself.

Doesn't apply to gypsies. Again.

Kid in an orphanage = not gypsy.

What is this "special care" you speak of that is going to keep a girl from having sex for money? Where's the switch that magically turns ho's into good girls? And talk is cheap. 99% of the time it's also useless. Witness this discussion going around and around despite the fact that I am clearly right.

I am right. You see? Saying that doesn't make you or me right.

You see any society entrusting kids under single playboys care?

The scenario you originally presented had it that she already was determined to be a whore. A 14 year old girl doesn't need any adult encouragement to become a whore, she can just go out and BE a whore. There's no classes you have to take or anything.

She need someone that prevents that.

No, I think the guy who killed the Flying Graysons corrupted Dick. Bruce teaches Dick the noble and efficient way to do what he wants to do, instead of getting dead.

Bruce takes advantage of Dick's unstable situation. 'Ok, Dick, you want revenge? you want to find your parent's murderers? Join me.' Not something you do/say to a 13 y.o. boy.

I never said it was morally better. But it is SAFER to be an expensive whore than a cheap one. A cheap whore gets beaten and gets diseases and has to deal with pimps and low-class johns. An expensive whore has a madam and works in the relative safety of a whorehouse instead of, say, a rund-down streetcorner in the middle of no-man's land.

You're saying safer = good?

If I rape a woman using a condom to protect her then it's better in some way?

If a person is determined to ruin their life, there's often little you can do to stop them. However, sometimes you can provide them with a less dangerous road. Which is morally better than leaving them to rot.

Even if it's too little to do, it must be done.

The law and reality are often very different. Legally, a child is not old enough to make his or her own decisions. In reality, they usually do it anyway.

No excuse for encouraging them.

That's why it's important to teach kids about right and wrong from a young age.

And according to Bruce using a mask and deprive yourself of a healthy life is the right thing to do. If he wants to do that himself, it's fine. If he wants to take an immature child and teach him under that ideas, then he's being immoral and corrupter, no matter how many corrupters Dick have had before Bruce.

You can't be with them every moment and they have to make decisions for themselves when they're at school or out with friends. They have to make life-changing decisions the first time somebody offers them a toke. Are you going to say a child has no legal or ethical stature to decide whether or not to take that toke? I can see that conversation:

"Here, take a hit."
"Hold on, I gotta call my Mom and find out if it's okay."

Remember that Dick is a carnie who grew up in the instrinsically unwholesome environment of a travelling circus. Remember that he worked WITHOUT A NET, on a TRAPEZE, as a CHILD. Risking his life is something he has done every day since he's been physically capable of performing. But he's been TRAINED to know what to do, so he doesn't have to be out there hanging from the trapeze going, "Mom, should I wait until the full extension to let go, or should I let go now? Will I die if I hit the floor?"

Kids may not be adults, but they aren't morons, and their lives are usually complicated. You seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that it's the other way around.

Then let Dick train himself just as Bruce did.

If he's so determined and has maturity enough, let him do the trick witjout any adult plating ideas in his mind.

[trustyside-kick]

And what citry do you live where people with traumas dresses as bats and raises underage orphans as a better way to reach their goals of revenge instead the regular methods?

How can you be a Batman fan and try to use that against him for this arguement?

[El Payaso]

What good comes of teaching a young angry kid with murderous rage how to to keep that rage in check and how to stop the evil that happened to him from happening to others? Lots.

Maybe in Comicland or Pleasantville.

That's why there are no lonely vigilantes in animal costume eveywhere.

[El Payaso]

Did you read my post before that? I did not want to edit it and put what you just replied to in it cause it was after posting it and I noticed a trend of quick replies going on.

How can you say that training Dick was worse then Dick trying to avenge his parents on his on with rage and no training.

If it was Dick's grandparents the ones killed, do you think Dick's parents would have encouraged him to find the criminals and fight crime in a disguise?

[trustyside-kick]

If it was Dick's grandparents the ones killed, do you think Dick's parents would have encouraged him to find the criminals and fight crime in a disguise?

No but you see that is totally different. When you try to comeback to use with what you seem to think as a good comeback you are only trying to change things that you think will help your view. That example is completely invalid.

I am not sure if I want to argue with you anymore. Not saying you win but your examples are just...not good/not valid/not worth my time arguing.

Come back with a good comeback not replying to this reply I made since I was not proving anything that had to do with the arguement about Robin being in the movie and then most likely I will start arguing with you about this.

[El Payaso]

Its never been about keeping Dick Grayson safe. if Bruce wanted to keep Dick Grayson safe, he'd get him a good strict foster home to grow up in. It's the Batman who wants an ally, a protege, someone to assist him, another pair of eyes, another pair of arms, another Batman should he die one night, someone strong, who has the motivation, the anger, the drive. Dick Grayson is all these things. Someone impressionable, trustworthy, a fast learner, and who will be loyal. Dick Grayson is all these things. Someone who shares his pain, shares his motivation, reminds him of himself. Dick Grayson is all these things. That is why there is a Robin.

Exactly. batman sees an ally and a herit for his cause and mission, a good learner eager to learn out of rage, so he totally ignores he's a underage kid and just focus on how good it is for himself to train the boy.

[El Payaso]

No but you see that is totally different. When you try to comeback to use with what you seem to think as a good comeback you are only trying to change things that you think will help your view. That example is completely invalid.

I am not sure if I want to argue with you anymore. Not saying you win but your examples are just...not good/not valid/not worth my time arguing.

Come back with a good comeback not replying to this reply I made since I was not proving anything that had to do with the arguement about Robin being in the movie and then most likely I will start arguing with you about this.

Any analysis is good enough for you to not answer.

[trustyside-kick]

Okay for one, I do not agree with Ronny Shade saying Batman was "looking for an ally, an heir" and all that crap. Dark Victory is the origin of Robin and why Bruce did what he did and that is the reason for it. I do not want to scan it and show...

[Digital_Ashes]

Batman: year one - origin of batman
batman: long halloween - origin of two face
batman: dark victory - origin of robin.

if they follow the comics.

he will be in number three.

[trustyside-kick]

It will not happen like that though because Goyer said that in the beginning of the third film or sometime close to the begin will be the trial and Joker will then splash the acid onto Harvey's face.

Unless they are trying to trick us again with phony information. Like how they made the phony script "Intimidation Game".

[Ronny Shade]

Okay for one, I do not agree with Ronny Shade saying Batman was "looking for an ally, an heir" and all that crap. Dark Victory is the origin of Robin and why Bruce did what he did and that is the reason for it. I do not want to scan it and show...
Its next on my list to read. Jeph Loeb usually knows what he's talking about. Maybe I'll change my mind.

[Lone Wolf]

Robin shouldn't have even been created. He sucks, Batman doesn't need him. In fact, Batman is ten times better without Robin.

Read some of the current or old comics, and I gurantee you'll take back your statemant. Don't come here posting something that irrelevant.

[Keyser Sushi]

That's why I say the top models are just an image.

He acts drunk, he is not.

He acts womanizer, he is not.

But it's not a convincing act if there isn't any play.

Which would be perfect to disguise his Bat-personality. Bruce is gay, he can't be Batman. Or he is impotent.

Being gay wouldn't preclude him being Batman. Not all gay people are poofties. The impotence argument could work, though, but honestly... why would I straight guy NOT boink those models?

That's why he doesn't care about being an a^^hole to all of the people he knows at his birthday.

I agree. I think we're just disagreeing over what extent he has to go to with the ladies in order to successfully create the image he wants. And, perhaps, over what, exactly, that image is.


Noble is a contradiction for being emo?

Didn't know.


In my experience, emo people are too absorbed with wallowing in their own manufactured misery to bother doing anything to help another person.


Orphanage are not 100% secure. nothing in this Earth is. But Bruce isn't either. No Cort in the world thinks a bachelor womanizer is better option than orphanage.


I agree, but you still haven't answered me as to how in the world Dick Grayson would wind up in an orphanage?


And what citry do you live where people with traumas dresses as bats and raises underage orphans as a better way to reach their goals of revenge instead the regular methods?


Okay, if you want to use that argument, let me ask you - since Batman's world is clearly not 100% realistic... why would Bruce not be able to adopt Dick?

After their parent's killing I'd say Dick would stop forcedly to wander through the country.

I concur. And he would probably die in a streetfight.

Please, read the thread. I'm not gonna post examples for the third time.

You're not giving any examples. You're like a politician who ways "we need to eliminate poverty" but who never says HOW to eliminate poverty, because he knows full well it can't be done, he just wants to appear righteous.

You answered perfectly yourself.

Cute. You conveniently ignored most of what I said. Remember, just because he isn't LEGALLY old enough to make the decision, doesn't mean he isn't going to do it anyway. It's not legal for Batman to go out and fight crime on his own, but he does it anyway. Murder isn't legal but a lot of people commit murders. Just because something isn't legal, doesn't mean it doesn't HAPPEN.

Kid in an orphanage = not gypsy.

Yes, and a kid whose parents are alive isn't an oprhan.

What you don't seem to get is that Dick was a gypsy before his parents got killed. He was a carnie. SOCIAL SERVICES IS NOT COMING FOR HIM. How does he get into this "orphanage" you speak of as being the magical solution for all of his problems?

I am right. You see? Saying that doesn't make you or me right.

That's true. You have to actually BE right for that statement to be true. Like me. I happen to be right, not because I say so, but because I am.

You see any society entrusting kids under single playboys care?

I don't think Bruce legally adopts Dick. Dick doesn't legally exist. He's a GYPSY.

She need someone that prevents that.

I agree. But the thing about PREVENTATIVE measures is that they have to happen BEFORE the problem. If she's already contemplating being a whore, it's too late for preventative measures to be effective.

Bruce takes advantage of Dick's unstable situation. 'Ok, Dick, you want revenge? you want to find your parent's murderers? Join me.' Not something you do/say to a 13 y.o. boy.

You might. It would depend on who you were, who the boy was, and what the specific details of the situation were.

You're saying safer = good?

No, I'm saying safer is better than less safe.

If I rape a woman using a condom to protect her then it's better in some way?

By about .0000002%, maybe. At least she won't get pregnant with a child she doesn't want. The rape is still horribly wrong, but at least she isn't going to be forced with the decision of having a baby she doesn't want, or getting an abortion, and at least she won't have any funky STD's you may be carrying. So yes, it's better by some tiny percentage. Not good by any stretch, but slightly less bad.

Even if it's too little to do, it must be done.

So if something is useless, it's still worth doing?

No excuse for encouraging them.

If you're ever a parent, you're going to raise pussies. :(

And according to Bruce using a mask and deprive yourself of a healthy life is the right thing to do. If he wants to do that himself, it's fine. If he wants to take an immature child and teach him under that ideas, then he's being immoral and corrupter, no matter how many corrupters Dick have had before Bruce.

Who says Bruce is depriving himself of a healthy life? Has it ever occurred to you that Bruce is NOT CAPABLE of living a normal life? Has it ever occurred to you that Bruce does what he does because it is the only way he can take the damage that has been done to him, and turn it to a good cause?

Then let Dick train himself just as Bruce did.


Bruce didn't train himself. He had mentors. Lots and lots of mentors.

If he's so determined and has maturity enough, let him do the trick witjout any adult plating ideas in his mind.

Bruce doesn't plant any ideas in Dick's mind.

[trustyside-kick]

Its next on my list to read. Jeph Loeb usually knows what he's talking about. Maybe I'll change my mind.

Knows what he is talking about? Damn skippy he does. His book with the Robin origin in it is in continuity. So it is the Robin origin story. And in that Bruce in his minds goes over why he is doing this; taking Robin in and training him. It is brief but it does happen.

[trustyside-kick]

Bruce takes advantage of Dick's unstable situation. 'Ok, Dick, you want revenge? you want to find your parent's murderers? Join me.' Not something you do/say to a 13 y.o. boy.

Wow have you seriously read Dark Victory?

- Dick is 8 or 9 years old. Bruce talks about how he is just about the same age when his parents were killed.
- Batman takes him in out of charity.
- Bruce does not take advantage of Dick's unstable situation. After Dick on his own goes back to the circus to try to get some answers and fights some thugs and gets beaten and Batman rescues him they talk. This is where he reveals his identity. He asks Dick if he wants to know who killed his parents and Dick says yes. He then says he cannot let him go out there again without training.

[Keyser Sushi]

Knows what he is talking about? Damn skippy he does. His book with the Robin origin in it is in continuity. So it is the Robin origin story. And in that Bruce in his minds goes over why he is doing this; taking Robin in and training him. It is brief but it does happen.

What about Year 3?

[Ronny Shade]

Knows what he is talking about? Damn skippy he does. His book with the Robin origin in it is in continuity. So it is the Robin origin story. And in that Bruce in his minds goes over why he is doing this; taking Robin in and training him. It is brief but it does happen.
Yes, but a lot of things happened in continuity that we'd all like to forget about.

[trustyside-kick]

What about Year 3?

Not in continuity. There for does not mean squat.

Yes, but a lot of things happened in continuity that we'd all like to forget about.

That is not how it works. I cannot go "Oh well...I did not like Joker shooting Barbara Gordon and paralyzing her preventing her from continuing to be Batgirl...so I will just ignore that."

[Keyser Sushi]

Not in continuity. There for does not mean squat.

Why is Year 3 not in continuity? It's Year 3! Dark Victory's just some GN with ugly artwork written by an overrated "kitchen-sink" author...?

[trustyside-kick]

Why is Year 3 not in continuity? It's Year 3! Dark Victory's just some GN with ugly artwork written by an overrated "kitchen-sink" author...?

No......Year 3 is not...just like Year 2 is not. Year Two was basically replaced with The Long Halloween and Year 3 by Dark Victory.

And Jeph Loeb is not overrated. Tim Sale's drawings are awesome; give a different feel to each character than most artists.

[El Payaso]

Wow have you seriously read Dark Victory?

- Dick is 8 or 9 years old. Bruce talks about how he is just about the same age when his parents were killed.
- Batman takes him in out of charity.
- Bruce does not take advantage of Dick's unstable situation. After Dick on his own goes back to the circus to try to get some answers and fights some thugs and gets beaten and Batman rescues him they talk. This is where he reveals his identity. He asks Dick if he wants to know who killed his parents and Dick says yes. He then says he cannot let him go out there again without training.

Corruptomondo.

How many paedophiles can tell the same story. "Officer, that 8 y.o. boy was in the charity, I saved him! And yes, he consented in coming home when I asked him if he wanna play with giant colorful toys and have a daddy again. Think about it, no one else was going to offer him that chance. I saved him!"

[trustyside-kick]

I am guessing you are one of the people not enjoying the One Year Later Batman comic since they are using Robin more often. Gives it more of a BTAS feel that is awesome.

[Ronny Shade]

Not in continuity. There for does not mean squat.
That's moronic.


That is not how it works. I cannot go "Oh well...I did not like Joker shooting Barbara Gordon and paralyzing her preventing her from continuing to be Batgirl...so I will just ignore that."
Actually, since we're creating a NEW continuity here with the films, that's EXACTLY how it works.

Futhermore, that's not what I meant at all. I was referring to the 60's era silly and colorful antics of Batman and Robin. I'm sure we'd all like to see Batman working for the police and declaring how his bat-rope works out loud as he uses it.

[AnimeJune]

You didn't read that thing I posted. Suppose for a moment that Batman doesn't help Dick avenge the Flying Graysons. How's he going to keep Dick from trying to do it on his own? An understandable quandary - but still. The reasoning that "If I can't stop him, I might as well encourage him to do it" doesn't seem right to me. Of course, to Batman's vengeful mind it would probably make all kinds of sense ("he wants to do what I want to do, why not teach him how to do it right?"), I still believe that what Batman's doing is wrong. Batman's choice for fighting crime emotionally cripples him, and I'm adverse to the idea of him encouraging that kind of self-destruction on a teen. I mean, I'm not a complete expert of the comics - did he start when he was a teen, or when he was an adult?

On the other hand, it does remind me of how some parents let their underage kids drink alcohol at home, because at least they're somewhere safe when they're doing it, so I can see your point. It doesn't mean kids underage SHOULD drink alcohol (although I'm sure lots of people on this board would contest that), but if they're going to do it anyways, might as well monitor it and teach them how to be responsible.

So by all means - it Batman didn't do it, it would probably go against his character. Doesn't mean I think it's the right thing to do. In the end, though - it actually makes Batman a more interesting character. I like ambiguous grey-area dudes.

[Ronny Shade]

An understandable quandary - but still. The reasoning that "If I can't stop him, I might as well encourage him to do it" doesn't seem right to me. Of course, to Batman's vengeful mind it would probably make all kinds of sense ("he wants to do what I want to do, why not teach him how to do it right?"), I still believe that what Batman's doing is wrong. Batman's choice for fighting crime emotionally cripples him, and I'm adverse to the idea of him encouraging that kind of self-destruction on a teen. I mean, I'm not a complete expert of the comics - did he start when he was a teen, or when he was an adult?

On the other hand, it does remind me of how some parents let their underage kids drink alcohol at home, because at least they're somewhere safe when they're doing it, so I can see your point. It doesn't mean kids underage SHOULD drink alcohol (although I'm sure lots of people on this board would contest that), but if they're going to do it anyways, might as well monitor it and teach them how to be responsible.

So by all means - it Batman didn't do it, it would probably go against his character. Doesn't mean I think it's the right thing to do. In the end, though - it actually makes Batman a more interesting character. I like ambiguous grey-area dudes.

Exactly. It only needs to make sense to Batman for it to make sense that he does it. A lot of stuff Batman does can be looked at as "morally wrong" but it makes sense to him. Batman's alwas been a little more "grey area" than most other superheroes. Is part of what make him interesting.

[trustyside-kick]

That's moronic.

No it is not...they took the story out of continuity...therefore the story has nothing to do with the characters.

[trustyside-kick]

Exactly. It only needs to make sense to Batman for it to make sense that he does it. A lot of stuff Batman does can be looked at as "morally wrong" but it makes sense to him. Batman's alwas been a little more "grey area" than most other superheroes. Is part of what make him interesting.

Yea...I remember saying that he is somewhat like an anti-hero which is what i like about him but someone was trying to tell me his is not when he is...he is not the perfect human being nor the perfect superhero...he is darker as well.

[javi1024]

Yea...I remember saying that he is somewhat like an anti-hero which is what i like about him but someone was trying to tell me his is not when he is...he is not the perfect human being nor the perfect superhero...he is darker as well.
hes not an anti-hero, especially not after Infinite Crisis. he always puts the common good and safety of others before anything else. an anti-hero is someone like Venom or maybe Jason Todd. yea they may be doing good but the wrong way and they hate their respective hero.

[trustyside-kick]

hes not an anti-hero, especially not after Infinite Crisis. he always puts the common good and safety of others before anything else. an anti-hero is someone like Venom or maybe Jason Todd. yea they may be doing good but the wrong way and they hate their respective hero.

Wow. Never thought this would occur in the forums (I don't think we have been in the same discussion in any thread so far :P). Bro, I know he does not fall that much under an anti-hero cause he does not do what your 2 examples do but I was just getting across that he is not the ideal superhero. That is why I like him so much.

[javi1024]

Its never been about keeping Dick Grayson safe. if Bruce wanted to keep Dick Grayson safe, he'd get him a good strict foster home to grow up in. It's the Batman who wants an ally, a protege, someone to assist him, another pair of eyes, another pair of arms, another Batman should he die one night, someone strong, who has the motivation, the anger, the drive. Dick Grayson is all these things. Someone impressionable, trustworthy, a fast learner, and who will be loyal. Dick Grayson is all these things. Someone who shares his pain, shares his motivation, reminds him of himself. Dick Grayson is all these things. That is why there is a Robin.
DAMN STRAIGHT!:up: :up: :up:

[LongDong]

me,i won't no films in this continuety after 3 keep it a trilogy.

speak engrish prease

[javi1024]

Wow. Never thought this would occur in the forums (I don't think we have been in the same discussion in any thread so far :P). Bro, I know he does not fall that much under an anti-hero cause he does not do what your 2 examples do but I was just getting across that he is not the ideal superhero. That is why I like him so much.
well part of the reason for One Year Later is because no one was the ideal superhero anymore. Batman couldn't trust any of his friends (even the boys), Wonder Woman killed Max Lord and almost killed Mongul, Superboy took a leave of absence, the Justice League mindwiped villains, and Superman- i think Batman put it well when he said "Let's face it Clark, the last time you inspired anyone was when you died."

but yes, i do know what you mean- he's kickass. you dont have to convince me.

[bdsproductions]

well,theres a hole in Batman a whole only Dick can fill,and i guess thats the reason for Robin

[javi1024]

you might wanna reword that, cuz sick minds will definitely take that the wrong way considering all the gay bat jokes there are:p

[bdsproductions]

what are you talking about? Batman has a whol that Dick can fill!.

[trustyside-kick]

He has got a point...I can picture now all the anti-Robin people making fun of your comment and you will curse yourself for ever typing it. :P

But to add on to what you said...I understand. I remember reading in Under the Hood or some series after it but with Jason still on the loose before OYL that there is a part with Alfred. He talks about how he noticed when Jason became the second Robin Bruce was happy again or something like that. My bro has the issue it is in where he stashes his comics..I will look to find the direct quote.

[Ronny Shade]

No it is not...they took the story out of continuity...therefore the story has nothing to do with the characters.
I disagree entirely. You're saying, for example, that The Dark Knight Returns, just because it is out of continuity contains no valid character information? Besides Year One, Long Halloween, Dark Victory are ALL out of continuity. Long Halloween came out in what? 1996? That's not exactly in continuity. The first appearance of Two Face was long before that. It's a RETELLING, not continuity.

You also seem to be missing the point of establishing a NEW continuity via cinema. They're STARTING OVER.

[Ronny Shade]

DAMN STRAIGHT!:up: :up: :up:
Thanks for your support. I think since you already agree with me, I'll take you under my wing and teach how to morally and responsibly agree with me so you don't hurt yourself. :p

[trustyside-kick]

I disagree entirely. You're saying, for example, that The Dark Knight Returns, just because it is out of continuity contains no valid character information? Besides Year One, Long Halloween, Dark Victory are ALL out of continuity. Long Halloween came out in what? 1996? That's not exactly in continuity. The first appearance of Two Face was long before that. It's a RETELLING, not continuity.

You also seem to be missing the point of establishing a NEW continuity via cinema. They're STARTING OVER.

Again you are wrong...sigh...how many times must I say this.

They took out Year Two and Three and replaced with The Long Halloween and Dark Victory. It does not matter when they were made. I am not stupid. I know what is and what is not in continuity for the most part and I know that those are.

You have not even read Dark Victory (that is what you said at least) of all stories...so how can I believe you about anything that has to do with continuity or for the most part the comics? I do not know how many comics you have read but it seems not many.

And duh I know they are starting over with the movies...but when he said that he meant it does not continue the past 4 Batman films. Get your facts straight. They are making it different and more realistic yes, but it is best to not go to the extreme with the realism and still be close to the comics. If you go through the special features CD or if you already read some of the comics they used you would know/see they used stuff from Year One, The Long Halloween, and Dark Victory.

[Ronny Shade]

Get my facts straight. Psh.

I suppose you think the films are following the comic continuity then? Because they are not.

No I have not read Dark Victory, but this "continuity" issue is not as cut and dry as you seem to think it is. There is no one exact official "Batman Continuity" If there IS than it does not include any of these Miller or Loeb novels we've been discussing. You say they "replace" the original comics, but they don't. They are a reimagination, a retelling. The OFFICIAL Batman continuity (if it exists) starts when Bob Kane published his first Detective Comic starring Batman. It gets a little mushy from there, because there is no one"authoritative source" on what "Batman officially is." Is it Bob Kane? How about DC the company? If the latter, I'm willing to bet massive amounts of money than not everybody who works at DC has the exact same ideas when it comes to Batman. Things have been told and retold, they are fluid, changing. That's how it is with most long-running comics.

[trustyside-kick]

Get my facts straight. Psh.

I suppose you think the films are following the comic continuity then? Because they are not.

Sigh...I said I was well aware of that. Can you read? Here is what I said reguarding that part.

And duh I know they are starting over with the movies...but when he said that he meant it does not continue the past 4 Batman films. Get your facts straight. They are making it different and more realistic yes, but it is best to not go to the extreme with the realism and still be close to the comics. If you go through the special features CD or if you already read some of the comics they used you would know/see they used stuff from Year One, The Long Halloween, and Dark Victory.

There is no one exact official "Batman Continuity" If there IS than it does not include any of these Miller or Loeb novels we've been discussing. You say they "replace" the original comics, but they don't.

Yes they do. The whole revamp of the whole damn series in the 80s ring a bell? Storywise that is how it goes. I was not saying TLH is where Two-Face first appeared ever in the DC Universe...or Robin in DV...I am saying storywise that is their origins because they are in continuity.

Geez...I wish I could remember who it was that in one of my first threads ever posting talked about continuity...The Question maybe? hippie_hunter? Gah...if I could remember you would see how way off you are.

Besides...why are you even brining in the movies coming out when this started out because you thought Year Three was in continuity when it isn't?

[Ronny Shade]

They are part of what you are describing as continuity, yes. But who's authority defined this continuity? Is it "official?"

You don't have to even answer that because it will just boil down to what is "official" or "authoritative" on Batman. My point is this question cannot be conclusively or unarguably proven.

[trustyside-kick]

....

In Year Two Batman finds out who could have possibly killed his parents...in ANY other story after that do you RECALL him going after the guy? NO. That is why they took Year 2 out of continuity. They did not like having Batman find out who could have killed his parents. I do not make the shots for continuity. They also had their reasons for taking out Year 3 as well. There are a crapload of side stories from other series like Gotham Knights or Shadow of the Bat that are not in continuity with Batman (hell, look at All-Star Batman & Robin). Some are but some are not. How about you go start a thread asking about continuity with certain issues like Year Two and Year Three in the comics section and see what you get. I am sure some people not paying attention to this thread will tell you the same thing. I will not be the one to make that thread cause I already know.

I am not continuing this arguement over the continuity because I am tired of saying the same thing several different posts in different ways. End of discussion.

So...one thing I have noticed is people suggesting that if they bring Robin into the films he be an old teenager. Why do some of you say that? I know StorminNorman is one of those people I am referring to.

[trustyside-kick]

He has got a point...I can picture now all the anti-Robin people making fun of your comment and you will curse yourself for ever typing it. :P

But to add on to what you said...I understand. I remember reading in Under the Hood or some series after it but with Jason still on the loose before OYL that there is a part with Alfred. He talks about how he noticed when Jason became the second Robin Bruce was happy again or something like that. My bro has the issue it is in where he stashes his comics..I will look to find the direct quote.

I am going to try to go skim through my brother's comics to try to find the part I mentioned there with Alfred right now.

[trustyside-kick]

I found the issue. It is Batman #645 on the cover says A Robin's Tale. On the inside cover says "Show me yesterday, for I can't find today".

If any of you Robin haters like El_Payaso appearently have read that issue then that is basically why Batman needs a Robin. I hope I will not have to go back and try to quote parts of it since it is so long. Lol.

P.S...Sorry for the triple post..I know...just they were at different moments and I did not want to do a lot of editting when the first one had nothing to do with the next ones.

[Keyser Sushi]

I found the issue. It is Batman #645 on the cover says A Robin's Tale. On the inside cover says "Show me yesterday, for I can't find today".

If any of you Robin haters like El_Payaso appearently have read that issue then that is basically why Batman needs a Robin. I hope I will not have to go back and try to quote parts of it since it is so long. Lol.

P.S...Sorry for the triple post..I know...just they were at different moments and I did not want to do a lot of editting when the first one had nothing to do with the next ones.

That same notion was explained more than ten years ago, in the "A Lonely Place of Dying" storyline, where Tim Drake sought out Bruce Wayne, having already deduced that Bruce was Batman. He also knew that Dick Grayson had been Robin, and that Jason Todd had also been Robin, and he knew what had happened to them -- see, Tim's a naturally gifted detective. At any rate, Tim had tracked down Nightwing (then leader of the New Teen Titans) and tried to get him to come back to Gotham to help Batman, because he felt that Batman needed a Robin. But Nightwing couldn't be Robin anymore, and he let Tim know that in no uncertain terms.

This of course all led up to Tim taking the old costume out of the case and putting it on himself in order to help Batman. Batman was getting the hell knocked out of him reguarly and Tim felt that he had sort of a death wish, that he was reckless and self-destructive without Robin.

Alfred and Dick agreed, and they ended up convincing Bruce that Tim needed to stick around.

I don't know that I subscribe to that theory; I don't think Batman needs a Robin, but I think Robin can be a good character when he's handled properly and I wouldn't mind seeing him eventually in the movies if, and only if, he's done right.


An understandable quandary - but still. The reasoning that "If I can't stop him, I might as well encourage him to do it" doesn't seem right to me. Of course, to Batman's vengeful mind it would probably make all kinds of sense ("he wants to do what I want to do, why not teach him how to do it right?"), I still believe that what Batman's doing is wrong. Batman's choice for fighting crime emotionally cripples him, and I'm adverse to the idea of him encouraging that kind of self-destruction on a teen. I mean, I'm not a complete expert of the comics - did he start when he was a teen, or when he was an adult?

I'm going to have to take some issue with this paragraph, at least. First of all, what Batman does is not about revenge. It's about serving the common good. He's not out for revenge, he's out to protect the innocent and serve justice. Not the law, but justice. He puts his own life on the line to save other lives. He is a compassionate person.

With that said, THAT's why Batman's guidance is needed. He's not corrupting Dick into seeking vengeance; he's teaching Dick that what he's doing can't be about vengeance; he needs to turn his rage and his pain into a social conscience, and instead of trying to make himself feel better, he needs to protect the innocent and help keep what happened to him from happening to other people.

In the comics, Bruce began his own training as a child. He decided when he was 9 or so that this was his life's work, protecting the innocent. He set out to learn all his skills -- criminology, deductive reasoning, fencing, martial arts, boxing, wrestling, acrobatics, gymnastics, escape artistry, etc -- in order to prepare himself for this role. It took him more than a decade. By the time he was in his 20's he was ready; he returned home to Gotham and set about things much in the manner that they are portrayed in "Begins," that is, he built his hideout in the cave, put together a costume, started up his public persona, sought out Jim Gordon as an ally because of his honesty and bravery, etc.

Batman having begun his own training as a child, would certainly have no qualms about beginning Dick's training as a child, either. And Batman is a one-stop-shopping kind of mentor. Batman can teach Dick all these things that Batman had to learn from a hundred different people all around the globe. Dick only needs one sensei, and his name is Bruce Wayne. Similarly, by the time Dick is 20 or so he realizes that he can't be a "Boy Wonder" anymore. He goes off on his own and becomes Nightwing.

On the other hand, it does remind me of how some parents let their underage kids drink alcohol at home, because at least they're somewhere safe when they're doing it, so I can see your point. It doesn't mean kids underage SHOULD drink alcohol (although I'm sure lots of people on this board would contest that), but if they're going to do it anyways, might as well monitor it and teach them how to be responsible.

So by all means - it Batman didn't do it, it would probably go against his character. Doesn't mean I think it's the right thing to do. In the end, though - it actually makes Batman a more interesting character. I like ambiguous grey-area dudes.


Well, I'm not one to quote from crappy movies, but Alfred did say something worthwhile in "Batman Forever," regarding this very issue: "Young men with a mind for revenge need little encouragement. What they need is guidance." Basically, what you said is right. On a funny side note, my Dad let me taste a sip of his beer a few times when I was a little kid, and I thought it was disgusting. Now I'm 29 and I don't drink. What my Dad did certainly didn't hurt me, did it?


No......Year 3 is not...just like Year 2 is not. Year Two was basically replaced with The Long Halloween and Year 3 by Dark Victory.

Year 2 is or is not in continuity depending upon whom you ask. Obviously it was INTENDED to be in continuity or it would not have been called "Year 2." Same deal with Year 3. Dark Victory came out after I stopped collecting. When I was collecting, Year 3 was completely within continuity.

Similarly, when I was a kid in the 70's and 80's, it was still in the continuity from when Bob Kane and Bill Finger started it in '39. Essentially, what is "in continuity" is constantly changing. So it doesn't matter if Year 3 isn't in continuity by current reckoning; it WAS ONCE. Just as before "Year One" there was "The Untold Legend of the Batman." Just because something is continuity now, doesn't negate the fact that it once was. In this discussion, every single official telling of the Robin story - whether it's from the 40's, or whether it be Year 3, or Dark Victory, B:TAS, or, hell, even Batman Forever, is relevant to this discussion.

And Jeph Loeb is not overrated. Tim Sale's drawings are awesome; give a different feel to each character than most artists.


Jeph Loeb is a decent author, nothing more. He has a tendency to wedge too many characters into his stories and tie too many things together. I realize it's done partially to create red herrings and throw us off the scent in his mystery stories - and I do like the fact that Loeb writes mysteries - but it annoys me to be reading Hush and find a great character like Ra's al Ghul used as a lamp-post. This only happens because Loeb sticks too many people into his stories.

To make things worse, now all you kids who started collecting Batman in the past ten years think Batman was CREATED by Jeph Loeb, that nobody else but Jeph Loeb matters. Jeph Loeb is, to crib a phrase from Charles Dickens, but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of Batman authors.

Tim Sale is vastly overrated as well. I understand the intention behind his artwork but he's really not that good. He draws Selina Kyle ugly, he makes Batman look like a cave man, and his art often lacks drama. He's trying to have "style" like Frank Miller or Mike Mignola, but he rips them both off wantonly and isn't fit to light either man's farts. And that's the truth.

[El Payaso]

You're free to decide but I prefer Miller's DKR over any continuity.

It is simply... better.

[trustyside-kick]

People have their opinions about artists and authors...here are some of mine. Don't feel like doing more than these cause I can care less. Everyone has their opinions about artists and writers.

I never said Loeb created Batman or anything. All I said that his TLH and DV are what is in continuity. I do not see how you could get pissed off with what he did with Ra's.

I think Year One is higly overrrated and was not even good.

The artist from Broken City sucked ass. At first I was sketchy about Sale's art but I grew into it.

[Keyser Sushi]

People have their opinions about artists and authors...here are some of mine. Don't feel like doing more than these cause I can care less. Everyone has their opinions about artists and writers.

Yes, everyone has their opinions. But that doesn't negate what is good and what is not. Pigs like rolling in feces. Doesn't mean it doesn't stink.

I never said Loeb created Batman or anything. All I said that his TLH and DV are what is in continuity. I do not see how you could get pissed off with what he did with Ra's.

I couldn't care less what's in continuity because in another couple of years it'll be something else. I care about which Batman stories are good and which ones aren't. Whether or not they're in continuity doesn't change that.

I think Year One is higly overrrated and was not even good.

Year One is overrated, but it is also good. I think it's a good story, it's just not as much about Batman as it ought to be. It's a great deal about Jim Gordon. I love Jim Gordon, but it's not called "Jim Gordon and Batman: Year One."

The artist from Broken City sucked ass. At first I was sketchy about Sale's art but I grew into it.

The artist from Broken City did suck ass, I agree. But how do you feel about Gene Colan? Ed Hannigan? Don Newton? Norm Breyfogle?

The best Batman author of all time was arguably Denny O'Neill. I love Frank Miller's style, too, though I don't always agree with the decisions he makes... I think Miller's Batman tends too far towards the anti-hero, but I love anti-heroes. So while I don't think Miller's Batman is always... Batman... I think he's fun to read.

See, this isn't a discussion board. It's an operating table. And I'm the surgeon.

[trustyside-kick]

See, this isn't a discussion board. It's an operating table. And I'm the surgeon.

Someone is a little cocky. I don't see how you made a lot of good points. But I do not feel like arguing about it because I had enough of that with Ronny Shade.


The artist from Broken City did suck ass, I agree. But how do you feel about Gene Colan? Ed Hannigan? Don Newton? Norm Breyfogle?

Gene Colan, Ed Hannigan, Don Newton, and Norm Breyfogle are all good. Their Batmans remind me a lot of Neal Adams and are all very similar.

The best Batman author of all time was arguably Denny O'Neill. I love Frank Miller's style, too, though I don't always agree with the decisions he makes... I think Miller's Batman tends too far towards the anti-hero, but I love anti-heroes. So while I don't think Miller's Batman is always... Batman... I think he's fun to read.

Ya Denny O'Neil is a great writer. As people say he made Batman not so campy or whatever word they used.

I couldn't care less what's in continuity because in another couple of years it'll be something else. I care about which Batman stories are good and which ones aren't. Whether or not they're in continuity doesn't change that.

Ya I know. I was not saying stories not in continuity are crap. Maybe when that one time I replied saying "since not in continuity doesn't mean squat" some people might have taken it the wrong way. I was just saying Year Two and Three were taken out and replaced.

[El Payaso]

See, this isn't a discussion board. It's an operating table. And I'm the surgeon.

Is Goyer assisting you with one-liners?

[trustyside-kick]

Is Goyer assisting you with one-liners?

I've seen a lot of people use the same line anyway. It has lost its meaning in trying to be witty.

Also going back to something you said before Keyser Sushi...what did you dislike about Ra's being in Hush?

[Keyser Sushi]

Is Goyer assisting you with one-liners?

I do all my own stunts. :D


I've seen a lot of people use the same line anyway. It has lost its meaning in trying to be witty.

True. But I still find it amusing. It was great when Batman said it.

Also going back to something you said before Keyser Sushi...what did you dislike about Ra's being in Hush?


Never cast your pearls before swine.

[trustyside-kick]

Never cast your pearls before swine.

:confused:

[Keyser Sushi]

:confused:

Just something a cool Jewish guy once said. He had a lot of good lines.

[trustyside-kick]

Okay well I am still wondering what you disliked about Ra's role in Hush. :eek:

[Keyser Sushi]

Okay well I am still wondering what you disliked about Ra's role in Hush. :eek:

I told you. Never cast your pearls before swine. Think about what that means, and you have your answer.

[Lone Wolf]

Okay well I am still wondering what you disliked about Ra's role in Hush. :eek:

To each his own.

[Keyser Sushi]

To each his own.

Is that in support of him or me? :D

[StorminNorman]

I loved Hush in each and every way - but my opinion doesnt matter. :(

[Lone Wolf]

Is that in support of him or me? :D

You, because you have your own opinion of not liking Ra's' role in the book.

I loved Hush in each and every way - but my opinion doesnt matter. :(

Yes it does.

[Keyser Sushi]

I liked Hush quite a bit. It's not that I didn't like seeing Ra's, it was just... a wasted appearance for such a great character. He didn't have any real reason for being there.

[trustyside-kick]

But Riddler used his Lazarus Pit to cure his cancer that was terminal. Ra's was pissed someone used one of his last remaining pits and basically without saying wanted Batman to find out who. Without Ra's pit Hush could not have happened because Riddler was the mastermind behind Hush. Therefore Ra's was clearly needed. Doesn't that make sense?

[El Payaso]

Doesn't that make sense?

Yes. No Robin.

[Keyser Sushi]

But Riddler used his Lazarus Pit to cure his cancer that was terminal. Ra's was pissed someone used one of his last remaining pits and basically without saying wanted Batman to find out who. Without Ra's pit Hush could not have happened because Riddler was the mastermind behind Hush. Therefore Ra's was clearly needed. Doesn't that make sense?

Except that Riddler suddenly had cancer, which was equally unecessary, except as a way to shoehorn Ra's al Ghul into the story.

[trustyside-kick]

Lol. Should have expected that response even though he wasn't mentioned I guess by now.

El_Payaso I got a question. Now I know you did not like Bruce taking Dick in at his age...but what about the other 2 Robins? Everything from Under the Hood series to One Year Later with Jason being the Red Hood was awesome. Without Bruce taking him in and being Robin that could not have happened.

[trustyside-kick]

Except that Riddler suddenly had cancer, which was equally unecessary, except as a way to shoehorn Ra's al Ghul into the story.

Ya but remember? Riddler solved the most important riddle of all. He found out who Batman was. Ya I know the whole cancer thing was random and out of no where but the story was still great. The whole thing with Ra's was set up very nicely I must say. If Riddler tells anyone who Batman is Batman will tell Ra's he used his pit.

[Keyser Sushi]

Ya but remember? Riddler solved the most important riddle of all. He found out who Batman was. Ya I know the whole cancer thing was random and out of no where but the story was still great. The whole thing with Ra's was set up very nicely I must say. If Riddler tells anyone who Batman is Batman will tell Ra's he used his pit.

Yeah, but the whole Hush thing was so... un-Riddler. I mean, it was a good story, I enjoyed the hell out of it, but it's not the best Batman story ever written. It's a decent read. It's just that, Jeph Loeb pulled a Jeph Loeb and used EVERYBODY for no real reason, except that he could. And being a Jim Lee fan I can't complain too much because I got to see Jim Lee's take on all of the Batman characters, which I enjoyed tremendously. But the whole time I was reading the thing I kept thinking that Loeb had used all those characters for that purpose. That was before I found out he did the same thing in every single Batman story he's ever written. :(

[trustyside-kick]

So what if he used a lot of characters? That is not a bad thing. They all served their purpose. Every character Loeb used had a role and played it. The only one that did not was Harvey Dent; because he betrayed the plan. The only person that was not part of the plan was Ra's; which I have explained in posts above already.

And the point of it being so "Un-Riddler" as you call it cause Riddler said so himself that he was going to show everyone in town cause he "used to be somebody". He told Bats that when he was being interrogated at the end.

[El Payaso]

Lol. Should have expected that response even though he wasn't mentioned I guess by now.

El_Payaso I got a question. Now I know you did not like Bruce taking Dick in at his age...but what about the other 2 Robins? Everything from Under the Hood series to One Year Later with Jason being the Red Hood was awesome. Without Bruce taking him in and being Robin that could not have happened.

I'll tell you what. Being far more weak than strong, Batman Forever was the only attempt for me to believe a Robin could happen. Yes, even when once O'Donnell has the Robin suit on he's unbearable and the Holy this Holy that are puke worthy.

First, he was clearly a 18-20 y.o. man at least. Then, Bruce help him with real guidance; trying to make him go away from the revenge path. (Oh Batman IS revenge even when he tries - and succeed, depending on the version - genuinely to turn the revenge into a nobler mission; but clearly if Bruce's parents weren't killed his 'noble' feelings would have never existed.)

After that, Dick was persistant in becoming a crime fighter. And being him almost an adult, he was free to make his own decisions. But it was after a whole movie of Bruce trying to move him away from the vigilante career. At the end, Bruce recognizes the right of a man to find his own way. And the key word is 'man', not 8 y.o. child. Bruce Wayne had mentors too, but after his 18 y.o. or so. No one came as he was 8 to encourage him in his vengeful feelings.

Coming back to my original example, if a 20 y.o. woman tries to become a whore for some reason, then be it. And since she's an adult I could give her 1 or 2 tips about the bussiness and maybe I'll give her something else... if she wants it, because she has the age to decide for herself, what the hell.

[trustyside-kick]

I asked about what you think about the other 2 Robins that Batman took in though; Jason Todd and Tim Drake.

[Keyser Sushi]

So what if he used a lot of characters? That is not a bad thing. They all served their purpose. Every character Loeb used had a role and played it. The only one that did not was Harvey Dent; because he betrayed the plan. The only person that was not part of the plan was Ra's; which I have explained in posts above already.

And the point of it being so "Un-Riddler" as you call it cause Riddler said so himself that he was going to show everyone in town cause he "used to be somebody". He told Bats that when he was being interrogated at the end.

Well, actually, it kinda is a bad thing because they didn't have anything really to do. I mean yes they all had a role to play, which is fine, but most of them just showed up for an issue or a few pages or whatever. Considering the history that these characters have it's fairly disrespectful to make them all into nothing more than cardboard cutouts. Was it fun to see them? Yes. Was it good storytelling? That's debatable.