Civil War In The Dcu?

[Chris Wallace]

If the governemnt introduced a "Superhuman Registration Act" in the DCU, what do you think would happen? Who'd fight it & who'd go along with it?

[Dope Nose]

it's already been done. the JSA were called before the House of Un-American Activities Committee during the 50s and ordered to reveal their identities. rather than do so they retired.

[nightstreak]

Waht is this Civil War, thing? What is going on with it?

[TheCorpulent1]

it's already been done. the JSA were called before the House of Un-American Activities Committee during the 50s and ordered to reveal their identities. rather than do so they retired.
That's about the long and the short of it, really. Also, I doubt it'd happen in DC's present-day setting since the government already has a crapload of metahumans working for them. The Battle for Bludhaven mini shows how formidable the US government's metahuman forces are.

[BrianWilly]

If trying to control and register people like Spider-Man and Daredevil is going to be a pain in the ass for SHIELD, then trying to register people like Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter is going to be right up there next to really frikkin' impossible.

The DCU public has always had a much more amiable relationship with their superheroes than the Marvel public does, and both companies readily admit and encourage this persona.

A lot of the registration act has to do with secret identities, too, and a lot of DC's superheroes don't even have secret identities. It didn't quite used to be this way but it's gotten more and moreso like this as time went on. Most people think Superman is just Superman all the time; he doesn't wear a mask, after all. Wonder Woman was, until recently, a public governmental official.

The rest of the registration act has to do with training and maintaining professional reprehensibility for costumed heroes and, as Kyle mentioned in the WW3 arc, people like the JLA are the professionals. And younger heroes are trained all the time, with supervision and chaperoning, in teams like YJ or the Titans or even from their adult mentors that they are "legacying" off of.

As flawed as I think the registration act is, I have to admit that it makes a certain kind of sense for the Marvel universe. Not so much for the DCU.

[Chris Wallace]

Waht is this Civil War, thing? What is going on with it?
Long story short, the Marvel Universe government is trying to pass a law by which all superhumans would be required to register their identities & be under government jurisdiction. So far the mutants, & guys like Spider-Man & Captain America are steadfast against it, while Iron Man & the FF (whose identites are alreay known to the government anyway) are supporting it.

[storyteller]

Well iron man may have a plan since tony isnt supposed to be the current iron man(i mean hell he just payed a merc to attack him).

Dc wont get a civil war like this(well not for a long time and massive changes). Yeah plenty of heroes already are revealed and well plenty of the masked ones who cant change face are known by the government anyhow.

[Chris Wallace]

1-The higher-ups know that Tony is Iron Man. And those who don't would find out if the bill got passed.
2-his only plan so far seems to be roll over & accept it b/c they can't do anything to stop it.
2-I'm not saying it WILL happen in the DCU; I'm simply asking "What if?"
I figure the biggest opponent would be Superman, simply because if Lex luthor can get himself elected President, than Supes can't trust that his identity would be safe w/the government.

[Dope Nose]

I figure the biggest opponent would be Superman

I'd say Batman.

[Harlekin]

I'd say both. Superman would never go along with forced registration.

[Chris Wallace]

I'd say Batman.
Why Batman? Granted he'd have a lot to lose, but why would he oppose it more strongly than Superman?

[Chris Wallace]

Oh, wait-I guess my President Luthor argument supports that, since Bats wanted to go after Lex while he was in office.

[marcofthebeast]

I think batman would have just as big of a problem as superman would, but I think batman would be capable of avoiding he probably has plans specifically made for that situation. Green Arrow would probably feel the strongest against it 'cause the man is always trying to bring him down.

[Marvin]

if it were going to be anything like marvels than Batman would be in Tonys position, and go along with it(kinda)
just considering he may have a problem with un properly trained youths or people being chosen out of the blue to have lantern and godly powers without his(nightwing/robin) or any training at all...

-notice his satllite up in the sky
-notice his contingencies

Superman just trusts people simple as that...everyone but lex, and Lex would be for it, so...

and that just like marvel has the two premiere hero comunity heads against each other

nightwing would be against batman, and so would robin(due to their friends)

and we'd essentially have us another Kingdomcome

[Harlekin]

Nah, Batman would oppose it, because in the end, he only really trusts himself, and he knows the trouble the government has caused superheroes over the years. Heck, the fact that somebody like Luthor could get the presidency would probably be one of the reasons most superheroes would oppose it.

[Lackey]

Exactly, which makes it rather odd, to me, for a man as wise and brilliant as Reed Richards to just bend over and take it.

[Chris Wallace]

Or Someone Just Shy Of His Intelligence, Like Tony.
But I Think Reed's Just Figuring That Since His Identity's Been Public Knowledge From The Get-go, He's Got Nothing To Lose & Neither Should Anyone Else.

[Chris Wallace]

So Who Could You See Going Along With It? Maybe Nobody In The Wake Of "Identity Crisis". "Justice" Is Another Reason.

[Dope Nose]

Green Arrow would probably feel the strongest against it 'cause the man is always trying to bring him down.

heh heh, yeah, that's totally Ollie.

[Marvin]

realistically speaking it's hard to see anyone in the marvel universe "going for it" but for stories (and Quesadas pockets) sake, some of the characters had to be...

Tony and Reed have no business feeling the way they feel but in the long run of things they are the ones who fit best(even if just barely) into that category in the story.

if some writer had to do the same with the DCU Batman would be in Tonys shoes!

(as forced as the who Satillite was, Batman was the character they had to use)

[Chris Wallace]

Again-the Only Excuse Tony & Reed Have Is Having Nothing To Lose. As For Batman, I Can't See Him Going Tony's Route Because He Himself Is Held In Suspicion By Authorities. And Given The Fact That His Crusade Has So Often Involved Children, He'd Want To Keep The Government As Far From His Affairs As Possible.

[Varient]

If the governemnt introduced a "Superhuman Registration Act" in the DCU, what do you think would happen? Who'd fight it & who'd go along with it?
happened decades ago in DC.

[hippie_hunter]

if it were going to be anything like marvels than Batman would be in Tonys position, and go along with it(kinda)
just considering he may have a problem with un properly trained youths or people being chosen out of the blue to have lantern and godly powers without his(nightwing/robin) or any training at all...

-notice his satllite up in the sky
-notice his contingencies

Superman just trusts people simple as that...everyone but lex, and Lex would be for it, so...

and that just like marvel has the two premiere hero comunity heads against each other

nightwing would be against batman, and so would robin(due to their friends)

and we'd essentially have us another Kingdomcome

But Batman hates the government for abandoning Gotham City during the earthquake and creating the No Man's Land and the Luthor Administration framed him for murder.

[Chris Wallace]

happened decades ago in DC.
Elaborate. Elucidate.

[Chris Wallace]

But Batman hates the government for abandoning Gotham City during the earthquake and creating the No Man's Land and the Luthor Administration framed him for murder.
I forgot about that. Lex was behind that whole thing, with Vesper Fairchild, right?
I initially thought Harvey Dent had done it, simply b/c it happened in February 2002.

[Marvin]

that gov't and lex being in charge doesn't exist any more

besides, I don't think it would/should be an american government act...but rather a higher power act

just considering dc unlike marvel has more less than street level charcters..ie GL corps and such

but that's beside the point

[Chris Wallace]

So you're thinking, what-some sort of intergalactic council?

[Marvin]

maybe...

the issue is proper training and direction right?

[Harlekin]

Elaborate. Elucidate.
As was pointed out before by Corp: The whole JSA thing with HuAC.

Anyway, as to the point of Lex Luthor not being president right now, sure, but that doesn't stop another villain from doing what he did. The government simply can't be trusted by most heroes in the DCU, with somebody like Batman chief amongst them (they haven't only royally screwed him over with things like No Man's Land, but he's also opposed to stuff like the Suicide Squad).

[Marvin]

same could be said for the marvel universe

[Harlekin]

They've never had a supervillain get into the White House.

[Anubis]

But they did have the Red Skull as the Secretary of Defense.

[Chris Wallace]

maybe...

the issue is proper training and direction right?
The issue is control. If the act were passed, not only would the Pentagon know the names & social security numbers of all registered heroes, they could put anyone refusing to register in jail. The registered heroes would fall completely under government authoirty, & could be told who to fight, when & where
Imagine, if you will, Norman Osborn cutting a deal w/the White House. They could tell Spider-Man that under no circumstances is Osborn to be touched & he'd have to obey.
The whole point of superheroes is that they can step in where the cops can't; they're immune to political backdealing & red tape.

[BrianWilly]

I just really don't think you could make a very strong case for most of the DCU heroes to be for registration. They already receive training. A lot of them already have public identities. Most of them would be impossible to control. And the ones that wouldn't mind working for the government already work for the government anyway, in agencies such as Checkmate.

[Chris Wallace]

But they did have the Red Skull as the Secretary of Defense.
But not knowingly.

[Marvin]

so that means the if this was the mavel universe and lex was never in office then batman would be ok with it?

[BrianWilly]

No, Batman probably wouldn't go for it either way considering he's the type of superhero that the registration act is targetting most. An act that forces him to reveal his identity and only go after people that the government allows him to go after is completely and utterly against his modus operandi.

[Marvin]

that may be true...

as far as the general public is concerned superman doesn't wear a mask...

does the gov't know he has a secret id?

[Anubis]

Lex knew. Supposedly. And of course theres Max Lord, who worked for Checkmate. It's possible.

[TheCorpulent1]

A bunch of superheroes work for Checkmate now, and I'm pretty sure Alan and Fire, at least, know Superman's identity. JSA Classified showed that Alan apparently had enough pull with Checkmate to actually set ground rules and boundaries concerning his involvement, though, so it's possible he just used that pull to withhold any information about other heroes he might have.
Exactly, which makes it rather odd, to me, for a man as wise and brilliant as Reed Richards to just bend over and take it.
A man as wise and brilliant and optimistic as Reed Richards with no secret identity of his own to conceal, though. Reed's one of the few who are for the bill that I can kind of understand, actually.

[Lackey]

Optimistic, but not naive. He not a person I see as a government stooge and he should know better.

[TheCorpulent1]

True, believing that the heroes and the government could work together rather than the heroes' being forced into subservience is naive. Maybe they'll explain his reasoning down the line.

[The Batman]

Supes and Bats would probably be against it

People like Wally, Hal, and Diana MIGHT be for it.

I'd like to see something like this in the DCU, for the current heroes and not just the jsa.

[BrianWilly]

Considering the hoops that Wally jumped through to maintain his secret identity, I doubt he'd be so willing to give it up.

Diana is far too liberal:p. More seriously, I don't think she quite approves of metahumans as soldiers.

Hal...maybe. He's been on the opposite side of the fence concerning the government lately ("When I wear this ring, my allegiance is to the Corps only!"), but I can maybe see him as a stickler for order, duty, and responsibiity at heart.

[The Batman]

True, True

We know Alan, Mr Terrific, and Fire would be willing to work for the government.

Which big name superhero would be willing to work with the government?

[BrianWilly]

Depending on how much more they're going to make John Stewart into his JLU counterpart, he'd definitely be on the list.

Oracle has always tried to get Batman to be more "legitimate" and work more with the police, so maybe her.

I've never really understood how Roy Harper got involved with Checkmate in the first place -- he doesn't seem to have the right sort of mindset for it -- but he's got that history, so him as well.

[TheCorpulent1]

We know Alan, Mr Terrific, and Fire would be willing to work for the government.
Alan I'm not sure about. He's working with the government now, but he set down a bunch of ground rules and lines that Checkmate couldn't cross. It seems like a side job to me. He's still primarily a superhero unaffiliated with any governments. I think his affiliation with both the JSA and Checkmate, along with his past encounters with the government (wanting to help the US fight in WWII but not wanting to give up his secret ID on the principle of it during the Cold War), makes him seem like one of the biggest wildcards, in my opinon.

[hippie_hunter]

so that means the if this was the mavel universe and lex was never in office then batman would be ok with it?

No because Batman hates goverment officials such as Amanda Waller, Max Lord, and politicians in general. He sees them all as corrupt asshats. And he guards his identity very well.

[hippie_hunter]

Alan I'm not sure about. He's working with the government now, but he set down a bunch of ground rules and lines that Checkmate couldn't cross. It seems like a side job to me. He's still primarily a superhero unaffiliated with any governments. I think his affiliation with both the JSA and Checkmate, along with his past encounters with the government (wanting to help the US fight in WWII but not wanting to give up his secret ID on the principle of it during the Cold War), makes him seem like one of the biggest wildcards, in my opinon.

Alan Fury's involement in Checkmate makes this confusing since he doesn't wear a uniform in Checkmate yet wouldn't give up his identity during the McCarthy era. I personally think that Rucka's version of the character would be willing for a registration act.

[TheCorpulent1]

Considering Rucka's version of the character has only ever appeared in one issue right now, I'm skeptical about it. I think there's enough in the character's past to justify his choosing either option, really.

[Chris Wallace]

Now that I think about it, couldn't Zatanna just tell Congress to "Etov on no noitartsiger"?

[TheCorpulent1]

She could, but I'm pretty sure she's trying not to influence people that way anymore after everything that happened with Dr. Light and Identity Crisis and stuff.

[Chris Wallace]

I Know; I Was Mostly Kidding.
Her Existence Alone Might Give Them Reason To Put Forth Such A Bill.
Oh-and You Forgot Catwoman.

[TheCorpulent1]

I didn't forget Catwoman, I just didn't feel like listing out everyone she mind-****ed. Hence the "and stuff."

I don't see how a bill demanding that Zatanna--who has no secret identity since her superhero name is her real name--give up her identity and roll over for the government would make her any less dangerous.

[Chris Wallace]

It wouldn't; but they'd use her as an excuse to keep a shorter leash on everybody in tights.

[Chris Wallace]

Here's a thought; if the government could tell superheroes what to do, what would stop them from, say, sending all the heroes to Iraq?

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, but then the heroes could trot out the Dr. Fates and Orions and all the other uber-powerful badasses that nothing on Earth could stand a chance in hell of stopping and point out that these guys could've demolished the world a hundred times over, but instead they've directed their efforts to stopping guys like Mageddon and Imperiex, who are even more uber-powerful, from doing just that. And they could also point the finger at Checkmate, which was rather easily infiltrated by a metahuman whom the government thought it had on a short leash, and Brother Eye. Look at all the damage they caused. Look at the damage that General Eiling or Major Force, respected military officers, have caused. And who stopped them all? The selfsame heroes that the government now wants to oppress.

[roach]

Hmmm DC's Civil War????
Heroes fighting a villain who causes a nuclear explosion and kills a bunch of people...it sounds familar......Kingdom Come anyone

[Newb]

Exactly, which makes it rather odd, to me, for a man as wise and brilliant as Reed Richards to just bend over and take it.

Ya I was surprised by this as well, I guess scince he doesn't really have a secret ID he doesn't figure it to be a big deal.

[Chris Wallace]

That's How I See It; Since Doom Only Occasionally Attacks The Baxter Building, He Figures He Doesn't Have Much To Lose & Neither Should Anyone Else.

[TheCorpulent1]

That's pretty naive. I'm sure Reed realizes he lives a very privileged lifestyle that not many other heroes share. Hell, he's friends with Spider-Man. You don't need to look any farther than Spider-Man to see how the bill could hit the less privileged heroes hard.

[Chris Wallace]

He May Know Spider-Man, But Does He Know About Gwen Stacey? Does He Know The Horror Of Coming Home & Finding A Pumpkin Bomb Where The Love Of Your Life Should Be? Does He Know About The Plot To Kidnap Aunt May? Or Why Peter Had To Move Into Avengers Tower? Or Being Duped Into Thinking You're A Clone Of Yourself? Does He Understand The Hardship Of Keeping Your Personal Life & Your Costumed Life Separate, & The Consequences Of When You Fail To Do So?

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't think it's even been explicitly stated, but I imagine Spider-Man and the Torch talk, so the FF probably knows something of Peter's troubles. If nothing else, they know how dangerous Venom is because Peter went to them for help when the symbiote was still bonded to him. I'm sure Reed can imagine how troublesome a being that powerful with full knowledge of Spider-Man's identity and loved ones could be.

It doesn't just have to be Spider-Man, though. Reed definitely knows about the troubles Daredevil's had after his secret identity got out. I'm sure there are others. Pretty much anytime a villain learns a hero's identity, badness ensues. The evidence is right there for anyone who cares to look.

[Chris Wallace]

You're Just Not Gonna Give Reed Any Slack On This, Are You? Is It Just Incomprehensible To You That Someone So Smart Could Have His Head That Far Up His Bum?

[BrianWilly]

Reed could have his head up his bum, literally:p.

Even though I thought it was pretty out-of-character for Reed to support the registration, I thought that it was far, far more ridiculous for Sue to be supporting it, too. She of all people know how much danger her family is in constantly; her son was sent to hell and ended up needing therapy because of it, for pete's sake. She constantly battles with and often regrets their decision to be public with their identities due to the simple fact that it puts her children in that much more danger. For her to look at how worried Spider-Man is that the people he loves most are going to get killed because of this act and say "It's not that big a deal" is just downright ludicrous. It is that big a deal and she's had first-hand experience with it.

And so has Reed. He's never been an "easy way out, ends justify the means" character, in fact he's always been the exact opposite...that is, until the Illuminati and Civil War started messing with him. Before, he constantlly tried to make everyone happy and is never satisfied with anything less than the best possible outcome, and he's so smart that most often than not he's been able to think up that best possible outcome. That he's the very first person to end up agreeing with Tony on this act is just very questionable. Not as questionable as Sue, but questionable all the same.

[Lackey]

I agree... and besides all that, if Marvel wanted to keep a more unbiased approach to this, then I think they shouldn't have had the two smart guys on the same team... Reed should've sided against the registration act just to even the odds.

[Harlekin]

Here's a thought; if the government could tell superheroes what to do, what would stop them from, say, sending all the heroes to Iraq?
They used to have the Suicide Squad for that. Bunch of villains they could send to Moscow or places similar and just pull off a few assassinations.

[Shawkur]

I know 9/11 happened in the MU and I assume the Iraq war has as well so I never understood why, with so many top metahumans as government\SHIELDS ops and mercs, there arent tons of them over there. Its hard to believe that they would all be opposed to the war or refuse to do the governments bidding.

[Harlekin]

I know 9/11 happened in the MU and I assume the Iraq war has as well so I never understood why, with so many top metahumans as government\SHIELDS ops and mercs, there arent tons of them over there. Its hard to believe that they would all be opposed to the war or refuse to do the governments bidding.
Superhero comics are still an escapist art, and therefore try not to get too mixed in with today's politics. Beyond that, most superheroes still think some wars should still be fought by humans, and not by the supers.

[Chris Wallace]

Reed could have his head up his bum, literally:p.

Even though I thought it was pretty out-of-character for Reed to support the registration, I thought that it was far, far more ridiculous for Sue to be supporting it, too. She of all people know how much danger her family is in constantly; her son was sent to hell and ended up needing therapy because of it, for pete's sake. She constantly battles with and often regrets their decision to be public with their identities due to the simple fact that it puts her children in that much more danger. For her to look at how worried Spider-Man is that the people he loves most are going to get killed because of this act and say "It's not that big a deal" is just downright ludicrous. It is that big a deal and she's had first-hand experience with it.

And so has Reed. He's never been an "easy way out, ends justify the means" character, in fact he's always been the exact opposite...that is, until the Illuminati and Civil War started messing with him. Before, he constantlly tried to make everyone happy and is never satisfied with anything less than the best possible outcome, and he's so smart that most often than not he's been able to think up that best possible outcome. That he's the very first person to end up agreeing with Tony on this act is just very questionable. Not as questionable as Sue, but questionable all the same.
Everything you said makes perfect sense. But I should've expected that opening remark.

[TheCorpulent1]

Superhero comics are still an escapist art, and therefore try not to get too mixed in with today's politics. Beyond that, most superheroes still think some wars should still be fought by humans, and not by the supers.
That's true, but do you really see someone like US Agent sitting on the sidelines? I just assume the heroes who would support the war are all occupied doing things they think are more important, though. It's not as convenient as DC's WWII Spear of Destiny explanation, but it works for me.

[Chris Wallace]

I agree... and besides all that, if Marvel wanted to keep a more unbiased approach to this, then I think they shouldn't have had the two smart guys on the same team... Reed should've sided against the registration act just to even the odds.
Agreed.

[Harlekin]

That's true, but do you really see someone like US Agent sitting on the sidelines? I just assume the heroes who would support the war are all occupied doing things they think are more important, though. It's not as convenient as DC's WWII Spear of Destiny explanation, but it works for me.
But that's the nice thing. US Agent hasn't been sitting on the side-lines, and least not the last time we saw him with the New Invaders.

[TheCorpulent1]

True, but there are loads of heroes unaccounted for at any given time. It seems unlikely that not a single one of them felt the need to intercede in Iraq. It'd actually be a good story for someone to write. I'd love to see Brubaker put Cap in the position of having to retrieve an American hero from Iraq when Cap probably doesn't agree with the war either.

[Lackey]

Lex, when he was president, had Superman go on a mission in Qurac (DC's Iraq equivalent)

It's also the place where Lois was shot being an embedded reporter.

[Harlekin]

I thought Qurac was practically destroyed. In the Deathstroke title. Oh, well, I always liked the Quraci's, with their own superteam the Jihad, of which one of my fave characters, Ravan was a member before he sold out and went over to the Suicide Squad.

True, but there are loads of heroes unaccounted for at any given time. It seems unlikely that not a single one of them felt the need to intercede in Iraq. It'd actually be a good story for someone to write. I'd love to see Brubaker put Cap in the position of having to retrieve an American hero from Iraq when Cap probably doesn't agree with the war either.
Didn't he fight terrorists in the run previous to this one?

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, but he fought terrorists when they came to America.

[ToddIsDead]

Sorry to go off topic, but awesome sig, Corp. Rescue Me rocks, and that moment was hilarious.

[TheCorpulent1]

Thanks. I just watched seasons one and two last week. Looking forward to May 30th. :up:

[roach]

I'd love to see Brubaker put Cap in the position of having to retrieve an American hero from Iraq when Cap probably doesn't agree with the war either.

Cap wouldnt voice his opinion for or against the war...if they wanted him to go in and save someone I think he'd do it. He doesnt have to like it he just has to do it.

[Chris Wallace]

He'd go because there was a life on the line, yes. Now that you mention it, he doesn't question the administration.

[roach]

He'd go because there was a life on the line, yes. Now that you mention it, he doesn't question the administration.


that is because Cap is a product of the military. Ever notice how it is only retired military that speak out against the administration?????
I was reading another post on another site that said Cap's logic was flawed. This is a law that the American people support(based on how many people in the first issue are protesting) it goes thru official channels and becomes a law. Nothing devious or outright evil about it. So why is Cap against it?????
The excuse that the Government might point them at the wrong "bad guys" just doesnt seem right coming from someone who works for the Government and is an agent of Shield. This is why CW is flawed in my eyes. We never saw the debate of the good/bad of registration. We get a few blurbs about getting paid but having to tell their secret identities but nothing really meaty before heroes start lining up to fight each other.

[boywonder13]

Superman - would be for it
Batman - would be against
Green Arrow - Against
Teen Titans - AGainst

[Chris Wallace]

that is because Cap is a product of the military. Ever notice how it is only retired military that speak out against the administration?????
I was reading another post on another site that said Cap's logic was flawed. This is a law that the American people support(based on how many people in the first issue are protesting) it goes thru official channels and becomes a law. Nothing devious or outright evil about it. So why is Cap against it?????
The excuse that the Government might point them at the wrong "bad guys" just doesnt seem right coming from someone who works for the Government and is an agent of Shield. This is why CW is flawed in my eyes. We never saw the debate of the good/bad of registration. We get a few blurbs about getting paid but having to tell their secret identities but nothing really meaty before heroes start lining up to fight each other.
Yeah, it should've been developed more. So far, w/the exception of Spider-Man, we really don't know why anyone feels the way they do.

[Chris Wallace]

Superman - would be for it
Batman - would be against
Green Arrow - Against
Teen Titans - AGainst
Why?

[roach]

Superman - would be for it
Batman - would be against
Green Arrow - Against
Teen Titans - AGainst


I think Batman would be for it...but I am just basing this off his actions in Kingdom Come.
...but I dont see the DC US government being that disrespectful to the heroes. I think they'd let Superman handle the superheroes and then step in when/if he wasnt getting the job done.

[marcofthebeast]

Kingdom Come was a different situation, the world at that point was overrun by rogue "heroes". The cause of such events are the same but a lot of key factors are different and there was no registration involved just a giant prison were the heroes got to choose who went into it not the goverment. Batman was against the Superheroes completley taking matters into there own hands and I think he would feel the same way if the goverment decided the same. And as for the brother I thing, that was mainly for his own personal safety and i think he learned from that mistake.

[roach]

i suppose

[BrianWilly]

I really can't see Superman going for it either. He has his own identity and his own loved ones to protect. No one in the DCU is particularly eager to become the next Ralph Dibney. More significantly, he is always incredibly wary of how his powers are used and who his powers are used by; becoming a weapon of the American government to be used however they want to use him definitely crosses that line. Can you imagine any individual nation being allowed to order around a power that can move planets?

I find Captain America's logic ridiculously simple, to be honest: these are the men and women who have risked their lives and fought and died for the safety of Americans and the world, and the nation is now rewarding them by putting everything they love at risk? Cap represents the American ideal far more than he represents individual American laws, and this is definitely not the American ideal.

The government sends superpeople overseas to fight in their wars all the time, but these are people who have volunteered for that job, knowing the risks and expectations, signing up their time to help their military and follow those sorts of orders.

[Chris Wallace]

All Quite True. Although That Moving Planets Thing Never Made Sense To Me; In Order To Touch A Planet's Surface, He'd Have To Enter Its Atmosphere & The Force W/which He'd Have To Push Against The Ground-he'd More Likely Punch A Hole Through It, Non?

[roach]

I really can't see Superman going for it either. He has his own identity and his own loved ones to protect. No one in the DCU is particularly eager to become the next Ralph Dibney. More significantly, he is always incredibly wary of how his powers are used and who his powers are used by; becoming a weapon of the American government to be used however they want to use him definitely crosses that line. Can you imagine any individual nation being allowed to order around a power that can move planets?

I find Captain America's logic ridiculously simple, to be honest: these are the men and women who have risked their lives and fought and died for the safety of Americans and the world, and the nation is now rewarding them by putting everything they love at risk? Cap represents the American ideal far more than he represents individual American laws, and this is definitely not the American ideal.

The government sends superpeople overseas to fight in their wars all the time, but these are people who have volunteered for that job, knowing the risks and expectations, signing up their time to help their military and follow those sorts of orders.


again this is the flaw of the series as it was never fleshed out what capacity would the heroes be working in. Would they be more law enforcement or military????

[Chris Wallace]

The heroes' concern isn't tha capacity in which they'd be working; it's the fact that their identities & freedoms would be compromised.
And I'm pretty sure they'd be law enforcement. The whole "sending them to Iraq" bit was just a theory.

[roach]

The heroes' concern isn't tha capacity in which they'd be working; it's the fact that their identities & freedoms would be compromised.
And I'm pretty sure they'd be law enforcement. The whole "sending them to Iraq" bit was just a theory.


That Cap mentioned. If it was just Law Enforcement then why would he have an issue with the government pointing them at people who they deem are evil???? Cops go after criminals and arent usually told who to go after.
In all actuality(save for a few) they are breaking the law.

[Chris Wallace]

But if a cop doesn't agree with something he/she can ask to be reassigned or he/she can quit. The one thing that is clear about registration; it's for life.

[roach]

where was it stated that it was for life????

[Anubis]

Where does it state that it wasn't?

[BrianWilly]

It's pretty clear that if they want to continue being superheroes or even continue to use their superpowers in any way at all, they'd have to be employed by the government, and more specifically by SHIELD. SHIELD is much more a military organization than it is a law-enforcement organization.

[roach]

Where does it state that it wasn't?

very sneaky sis

[roach]

It's pretty clear that if they want to continue being superheroes or even continue to use their superpowers in any way at all, they'd have to be employed by the government, and more specifically by SHIELD. SHIELD is much more a military organization than it is a law-enforcement organization.


but could you see the US government registering all it's superhumans and having them go work for an organization that is loyal to the United Nations and not the US

[BrianWilly]

No, not really:O. Superhumans are nearly the most powerful weapons of mass destruction you can imagine, and I can't imagine the US being very generous with that kind of power. Which is kinda ironic of course, since SHIELD used to be an international organization but has recently become pretty USA-specific.

[TheCorpulent1]

He'd go because there was a life on the line, yes. Now that you mention it, he doesn't question the administration.
He has in the past.

[roach]

He has in the past.


but they have all been private matters...when Cap quit no one knew since he was replaced immediately. If there was a real Captain America would he publicly be critical of Operation:Iraqi Freedom

[TheCorpulent1]

Possibly. He unmasked himself on national television after killing a terrorist in his Marvel Knights series specifically to draw a distinction between himself and the symbol that Captain America is. He says something like Steve Rogers chose to kill the terrorist, not Captain America.

[roach]

Possibly. He unmasked himself on national television after killing a terrorist in his Marvel Knights series specifically to draw a distinction between himself and the symbol that Captain America is. He says something like Steve Rogers chose to kill the terrorist, not Captain America.

I thought he unmasked himself to say that he killed the terrorist and not America(in some sort of way to prevent someone attacking america in revenge)

[TheCorpulent1]

Exactly, Captain America is the embodiment of American ideals. He represents the whole country. He wanted people to know that Steve Rogers, the man behind the mask, made the decision to kill that terrorist, not America or anyone else.

As for whether he'd denounce the war, I still think it's possible. The hippies thought they were standing up for America's values when they protested Vietnam. The people who are against the war in Iraq believe they're being loyal to the ideals of America while the administration is trying to turn America into an imperialistic monster for the sake of money and oil. If Cap believed in something strongly enough--and it seems he believes that registration is wrong pretty strongly--I could see him speaking out to the public about it. It's not like the public won't notice already when he and the pro-registration characters start fighting in the streets and stuff.

[roach]

and if Cap does that he no longer is th embodiment of American ideals because he has taken a side. American Ideals arent republican or democrat and that is why I think Cap would try his best not to be political. I see him as being like Jack Bauer. He doesnt voice his opinion about the administration...he just does his job. If he hates the president it isnt because of his views on abortion...it's because he know the guy is a traitor(or a skrull)

[TheCorpulent1]

Some would view the war and its possible motivations as a betrayal of the ideals of America. The embodiment of America's ideals can't take a side against administrators who are betraying it? By your definition, Cap is no longer the embodiment of American ideals because he's taken a side in Civil War. It's the ethical, morally firm side, but it's a side nonetheless.

[roach]

No I was saying that he wouldnt be the Embodiment of American Ideals if he was to take sides in a political viewpoint(such as the War in Iraq). Cap taking the side and the reason behind it(to me) about Superhero Registration was very flawed.

[TheCorpulent1]

Depends on what your view of the American ideals are. Political dissent used to be highly valued in this country.

[roach]

Think of it like this.....Captain America comes out and says that he is against the War in Iraq. The democrat media machine goes into effect and Cap's words are all over the news.The next presidential primary comes around and his views are used against the Republicans. Cap has now come to represent the democrats and those who dont agree with the war.....but where does that leave the people who did agree with the war?????
This is why Cap's views on the government must not ever be public. If he supported the war would he still be representative of American Ideals????

[TheCorpulent1]

Fair point, but in that case, what makes it okay for him to dissent against the superhero registration in Civil War? Isn't he not representing American ideals because, since the bill is obviously going to pass, a majority of the people seem to be okay with demolishing some civil rights in the name of the myth of public safety that still won't come after the registration's in place?

[roach]

Does Cap represent the majority of America or all of America?????

this is a very flawed story in my mind. What should have happened is there should have been hearings in which Cap and several others would have testified in front of the Senate(just like the steroids in baseball panel).Cap or Iron Man couldnt come up with a better alternative than registration. Hell why doesnt Cap just muster all the superheroes and have them become Avengers. Then the Avengers become a superhuman branch of Homeland Security with Cap being the leader. Heroes are now policing themselves but are still answerable to the government. They are registered and trained by the best(Captain America). This allows Daredevil to continue fighting crime in Hells Kitchen....just he has serious backing now.Solo heroes can still be solo heroes and fight crime. This to me sounds a little more logical than heroes fighting each other.

[TheCorpulent1]

So who determined that all of America is against registration? It's a catch-22. By your standard, Cap could never have an opinion on anything while he's in the costume.

[roach]

So who determined that all of America is against registration? It's a catch-22. By your standard, Cap could never have an opinion on anything while he's in the costume.


No Steve Rogers can have any opinion he wants....Captain America cannot. He has to represent us all. By my standard we would never know he political leanings....wee would know that Cap votes but never know for whom he voted.

[roach]

So who determined that all of America is against registration? It's a catch-22. By your standard, Cap could never have an opinion on anything while he's in the costume.


exactly

[TheCorpulent1]

That doesn't answer anything. He's going to reveal some of his political leanings with Civil War. That's going to be a very public conflict between heroes and Cap is right at the epicenter of it. So how is he possibly going to stay true to embodying all American ideals when he's coming down on one side of the issue right there for the world to see. Beyond which, I don't think you could get a general consensus on just what the ideals of America are. "Freedom" would probably be the first thing to come to any American's mind, but everyone's gonna interpret that differently. In Civil War, those opposed view registration as an attempt to curtail the heroes' freedom; those for it see the heroes' potential for damage as a threat to civilians' freedom. Going back to the war in Iraq, people who support it view it as an attempt to free the oppressed masses of Iraq; people who oppose it view it as an imperialistic attempt to gain a foothold in an oil-rich region, motivated by greed rather than any concern for freedom.

As I see it, it's impossible for Cap to embody the ideals of America because America doesn't know what its ideals are. Cap does his best to embody what he believes are the ideals of America.

[roach]

I'll use myself as an example. I am in the US Navy. As a member of the military I am allowed to have views contrary to the administration's. However while I am in uniform my political views have to be kept to myself. Am I republican or democrat it doesnt matter because while in uniform I am just an American Sailor. I have stated my opinion politically on this website from time to time but I never discuss politics while in uniform(it's actually against the rules)

[TheCorpulent1]

But Cap's responsibilities as a superhero require him to take sides on some things. That's what's led to his problems with the government in the past, in fact. I don't think it's possible for Captain America to be entirely apolitical.

[Harlekin]

But he should be, ideally.

[Chris Wallace]

I Thought The American Ideal Was Supposed To Be About Freedom. If He Feels That Those Freedoms Are Being Compromised, What's He Supposed To Do?

[TheCorpulent1]

That was my take on it, too. But roach's argument is that if Cap feels freedom is being compromised by American politics, he should keep his trap shut and stay out of it because anything he does would show him favoring one side or the other when he should be impartial.

[Chris Wallace]

There's a difference between a symbol & a puppet.

[TheCorpulent1]

I agree.

[Harlekin]

That was my take on it, too. But roach's argument is that if Cap feels freedom is being compromised by American politics, he should keep his trap shut and stay out of it because anything he does would show him favoring one side or the other when he should be impartial.
No, that's only partially roach's view. Steve Rogers can go against the grain all he want, but ideally, Captain America is apolitical. Heck, he should just go back to the Captain for these kinds of things. :p

[Chris Wallace]

He's still being apolitical. It's not like he's running for President or endorsing a candidate. But at the same time he's standing against what he believes is just plain wrong. This isn't a political matter to him; it's a human rights issue.

[TheCorpulent1]

That's basically my argument, too. Political dissent is part of the spirit of America. Shouldn't Cap be allowed to exercise that just like any other citizen?

[Chris Wallace]

Wait-are You Saying That When The Founders Of This Country Left England, Went To War W/them Over Being Subject To Their Rule & Drafted A Declaration Of Independence, This Was An Act Of Political Dissent?

[roach]

That was my take on it, too. But roach's argument is that if Cap feels freedom is being compromised by American politics, he should keep his trap shut and stay out of it because anything he does would show him favoring one side or the other when he should be impartial.


whoa....that wasnt my view. If The Government was jacking up freedom Cap would take a stand.The example I was using was the Iraq War which is some people view as being unconstitutional and some people view as being needed.
However I'll use the example of this Superhero registration act. This law was debated in congress and passed thru official means. As I understand the act people who are superhuman must register and become deputies of Shield or give up being super heroes otherwise they are breaking the law(we wont even go into the law of vigilanteism that they are already breaking). Why would Captain America, goverment agent, soldier and agent of shield list as his reasons for going against the SRA because the government is gonna missuse superhumans?????

[Anubis]

Because he knows they well. He does see faster than everybody else you know. :)

[roach]

That's basically my argument, too. Political dissent is part of the spirit of America. Shouldn't Cap be allowed to exercise that just like any other citizen?

Yes political dissent is a part of America.I dont want anyone to think I am for mindlessness. However not every american can dissent.

My point is this.....say Cap is on a tv show and the interviewer asked what he thinks about the war in Iraq. " I think the President was doing what he felt he had to do and only time will tell if it was the wrong or right move."
Bam.....in the answer he neither says nay or yay, neither bashes the administration nor supports it.Inside he could be like"I cant wait until this little daddy's boy comes out of office." but those are remarks you should never hear come out of Cap's mouth.

[Chris Wallace]

whoa....that wasnt my view. If The Government was jacking up freedom Cap would take a stand.The example I was using was the Iraq War which is some people view as being unconstitutional and some people view as being needed.
However I'll use the example of this Superhero registration act. This law was debated in congress and passed thru official means. As I understand the act people who are superhuman must register and become deputies of Shield or give up being super heroes otherwise they are breaking the law(we wont even go into the law of vigilanteism that they are already breaking). Why would Captain America, goverment agent, soldier and agent of shield list as his reasons for going against the SRA because the government is gonna missuse superhumans?????
Secret War, for starters.

[Chris Wallace]

Yes political dissent is a part of America.I dont want anyone to think I am for mindlessness. However not every american can dissent.

My point is this.....say Cap is on a tv show and the interviewer asked what he thinks about the war in Iraq. " I think the President was doing what he felt he had to do and only time will tell if it was the wrong or right move."
Bam.....in the answer he neither says nay or yay, neither bashes the administration nor supports it.Inside he could be like"I cant wait until this little daddy's boy comes out of office." but those are remarks you should never hear come out of Cap's mouth.
But he's not doing that. He's calling into question the government's treatment of his costumed brethren.

[Chris Wallace]

Superheroes Should Not Be Afraid Of Their Governments; Governments Should Be Afraid Of Their Superheroes.

[roach]

Because he knows they well. He does see faster than everybody else you know. :)

Yet in his whole career up until that moment he had been working for the government. How many times have they had him go after the wrong person???
How many times have they tried to tell him to do something??????
Few and far between. It must not have been too bad if he is still working with them.
I am not saying that the argument he made was without merit...but coming from Cap that seemed a little far fetched.

[roach]

Secret War, for starters.


I havent read that as I am alergic to Bendis

[roach]

But he's not doing that. He's calling into question the government's treatment of his costumed brethren.


what treatment?????
The government is going to pass a law and wanted him to go after the ones who are breaking the law.

[Chris Wallace]

One That He Doesn't Agree With.

[roach]

One That He Doesn't Agree With.

so we can start ignoring laws we dont agree with

[TheCorpulent1]

That's what the founding fathers did, isn't it?
My point is this.....say Cap is on a tv show and the interviewer asked what he thinks about the war in Iraq. " I think the President was doing what he felt he had to do and only time will tell if it was the wrong or right move."
Bam.....in the answer he neither says nay or yay, neither bashes the administration nor supports it.Inside he could be like"I cant wait until this little daddy's boy comes out of office." but those are remarks you should never hear come out of Cap's mouth.
Anything can be construed as a partisan act in the current political climate of America. Even if Cap went on TV and said that, people would label him a spineless government puppet who can't express an opinion and next thing you know he's being lampooned as Captain Costa Rica or something. Or they'd construe the part about the president doing what he had to do as supporting the war, or they'd construe the latter part as implying that he thinks the war could've been a wrong move and thus dissenting against the administration. Politics are very, very messy; so messy, in fact, that there's no way to do anything without ending up on some side of an issue in people's minds. Neutrality is dead.

If Cap dissents against the war in Iraq because he feels it's betraying the American ideal of freedom by basically trampling all over the freedom of the Iraqis like an old-world imperialistic powerhouse, he'd be construed as throwing his favor in with the Democrats. If he supports the war because he feels it's an honest attempt to spread freedom and democracy in Iraq, he'd be construed as throwing his favor in with the Republicans. The only way to remain apolitical is to do and say absolutely nothing.

If Cap goes against registration because he's personally seen the government at its worst and doesn't want other heroes subjected to the kind of crap he's had to put up with, he's taking a stand on one side. If he supports registration because he feels the danger to civilians is too great for superhumans to run about unchecked, he's taking a stand on the other side. Once again, the only way to not get pigeonholed into one view or the other is to stay out of the conflict altogether.

The whole point of my argument is that the only way for Captain America to remain entirely apolitical is for him to sit on the sidelines and literally do nothing.

[Chris Wallace]

Not At All; He's Being Asked-no, Ordered-to Enforce It. To Turn On His Friends, His Teammates, His Allies. If He Refuses, They Should Fire Him & Revoke His Clearance-as Is Their Right. Not Declare Him Public Enemy # 1. That Just Proves His Point.

[Chris Wallace]

That Was Directed At Roach, Corp-not You.

[Harlekin]

That's what the founding fathers did, isn't it?

Anything can be construed as a partisan act in the current political climate of America. Even if Cap went on TV and said that, people would label him a spineless government puppet who can't express an opinion and next thing you know he's being lampooned as Captain Costa Rica or something. Or they'd construe the part about the president doing what he had to do as supporting the war, or they'd construe the latter part as implying that he thinks the war could've been a wrong move and thus dissenting against the administration. Politics are very, very messy; so messy, in fact, that there's no way to do anything without ending up on some side of an issue in people's minds. Neutrality is dead.

If Cap dissents against the war in Iraq because he feels it's betraying the American ideal of freedom by basically trampling all over the freedom of the Iraqis like an old-world imperialistic powerhouse, he'd be construed as throwing his favor in with the Democrats. If he supports the war because he feels it's an honest attempt to spread freedom and democracy in Iraq, he'd be construed as throwing his favor in with the Republicans. The only way to remain apolitical is to do and say absolutely nothing.

If Cap goes against registration because he's personally seen the government at its worst and doesn't want other heroes subjected to the kind of crap he's had to put up with, he's taking a stand on one side. If he supports registration because he feels the danger to civilians is too great for superhumans to run about unchecked, he's taking a stand on the other side. Once again, the only way to not get pigeonholed into one view or the other is to stay out of the conflict altogether.

The whole point of my argument is that the only way for Captain America to remain entirely apolitical is for him to sit on the sidelines and literally do nothing.
Or, like I said, relinquish the mantle of Captain America, which I would honestly expect him to do in a situation like Civil War. Not just because the identity of Cap should be an apolitical one, but because it sends a clear message to the government.

[Chris Wallace]

Quite.

[roach]

That Was Directed At Roach, Corp-not You.


what was the question????

[TheCorpulent1]

Or, like I said, relinquish the mantle of Captain America, which I would honestly expect him to do in a situation like Civil War. Not just because the identity of Cap should be an apolitical one, but because it sends a clear message to the government.
By keeping the mantle of Captain America, however, he could be making a statement to the administration. Basically, "I know what it means to be true to the spirit of America better than you ever will."

[roach]

but it was a little extreme that they tried to kill him when he said he wouldnt do it

[Chris Wallace]

what was the question????
"So we can start ignoring laws we don't agree with?"

[roach]

By keeping the mantle of Captain America, however, he could be making a statement to the administration. Basically, "I know what it means to be true to the spirit of America better than you ever will."

but the administration has nothing to do with this....the people wanted this law, it got thru Congress and Senate and the gets signed by the President...who is following the will of the people. At no time did we see the Prez twirl his mustache because he was finally gonna have some people get him some more oil.

[roach]

"So we can start ignoring laws we don't agree with?"

he should have said no and they should have(actually the US Government) asked for him to resign as Cap

[Harlekin]

By keeping the mantle of Captain America, however, he could be making a statement to the administration. Basically, "I know what it means to be true to the spirit of America better than you ever will."
Eh, it's a two-faced coin in the end.

[Chris Wallace]

he should have said no and they should have(actually the US Government) asked for him to resign as Cap
Not only do I agree with that, that's pretty much what I said.

[roach]

Not only do I agree with that, that's pretty much what I said.

I am glad I thought of it then:up:
First of all they really need to decide if Shield is U.S. or U.N. because if anyone was gonna order Cap it should have been an american official

[Chris Wallace]

Aren't The Avengers U.N. Or Does That No Longer Apply Since The Original Group Disbanded?

[Harlekin]

That depends. They're affiliated with SHIELD, and we're not clear if they are UN or US. ;)

[TheCorpulent1]

SHIELD will probably end up being retconned in as a division of the US armed forces before CW's over. That's how it is in the Ultimate universe, and it's not like Bendis would bother to research anything about SHIELD in the 616 universe.
but the administration has nothing to do with this....the people wanted this law, it got thru Congress and Senate and the gets signed by the President...who is following the will of the people. At no time did we see the Prez twirl his mustache because he was finally gonna have some people get him some more oil.
The administration has everything to do with a new law, and the president doesn't always follow the will of the people. That's why the US is a republic rather than a true democracy. Cap could feel that the administration is leading the people astray by offering this law up as the ultimate answer to superhuman problems when it's obviously not.

Also, the will of the people is not as cut and dried as it would seem. The will of part of the people was to secede in the 1800s, but the government stepped in and said "no." The American Civil War is basically the government telling the people that they're wrong because they're being shortsighted; Cap's doing the same in Marvel's Civil War.

[Chris Wallace]

Did You Major In Political Science?

[Harlekin]

It'd be so creepy if I told you right now he's an English major.

Oh, wait.

[TheCorpulent1]

Did You Major In Political Science?
No, why? Am I totally off-base with my argument? I really don't know a whole hell of a lot about politics, to be honest. I'm one of those apathetic youths of the Internet age.

[roach]

The administration has everything to do with a new law, and the president doesn't always follow the will of the people. That's why the US is a republic rather than a true democracy. Cap could feel that the administration is leading the people astray by offering this law up as the ultimate answer to superhuman problems when it's obviously not.

Also, the will of the people is not as cut and dried as it would seem. The will of part of the people was to secede in the 1800s, but the government stepped in and said "no." The American Civil War is basically the government telling the people that they're wrong because they're being shortsighted; Cap's doing the same in Marvel's Civil War.


I am just going by what I see in the book

[Chris Wallace]

No, why? Am I totally off-base with my argument? I really don't know a whole hell of a lot about politics, to be honest. I'm one of those apathetic youths of the Internet age.
No, you actually seem to know what you're talking about.