SPIDER-MAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Herr Logan]

Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More
From
SPIDER-MAN



This thread is a spin-off of the original ‘Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6248395#post6248395)’ from the Misc. Comics Films forum. That thread was open to the discussion of all superhero properties, and I have branched out into several property-specific ones so we can better keep track of people’s posts and have more linear and organized discussions about each superhero property.

Listed below are several posts links from the original Haven that pertain to the subject of this particular thread. It is not a complete list, and anyone who wants to link or re-post something they thought was interesting is welcome to do so.
I recommend reading these posts before posting your own ideas, but it’s not a requirement.
I ask that while people can respectfully point it out, they not act harshly when a user makes a new post that contains material that is similar to what has already been posted in either the original Haven or this particular thread.

This thread, like its predecessor, is dedicated to the brainstorming and discussion of ideas pertaining to how faithful and optimally entertaining superhero movie adaptations could have, or still could, be made. This is also a place for analyzing what has come before and how that could be a basis for ideal film adaptations of the various superhero properties we know and love, more closely based on the source material. The topic of this thread is Spider-Man.

I think certain movies already made could be taken as a basis for fully faithful adaptations, as in a large portion of a particular movie could be left mostly the way it is with specific alterations to what held that movie back from being better. Even some of the obvious changes to the various mythos could be used to enhance the story or execution of an adaptation that could still be considered faithful by discriminating, analytical and demanding fans. If there hasn’t been a movie made of the superhero(es) discussed in this thread, then ignore the last two sentences.
I want to discuss the theoretical possibilities present in both the original source material and the existing adaptations, and how those could be put into new productions that completely nail both the "spirit" and the essential details of these mythologies. Plots, script, character traits, costumes, even casting decisions are open for discussion. This is ultimately for the purpose of creative discussions for their own sake, although I would be delighted if it inspired high-quality, faithful fan scripts beings written (Dragon has written some excellent Spider-Man screenplays, for example).

All other non-comics media are valid topics as well (live action and animated TV series, video games, etc.). Again, it's fine to use ideas from existing products (casting, plot elements, dialogue, props/effects, etc.) as a basis or part of an idea for a "new" product if the new product would be significantly more faithful, even though it would be implausible for a rebooted franchise (a la "Batman Begins") to include these same elements in reality; reality is mostly irrelevant here.
It is unlikely that these ideas will lead to a better movie being made; not unless one of the thread participants ends up being a big-time producer or someone important in the business reads this thread. This is for us, the fans. We spend a good deal of time on the Hype, and it really doesn't accomplish much in terms of tangible results anyway. That's okay, since the point of this forum, presumably, is for the purpose of imparting information, critiquing superhero products, and discussing ideas. This is for people who are intelligent, imaginative, and passionate and have ideas to share conforming to the stated topic.


Ground Rules:
If you believe that the movie adaptations already made are perfect or good enough and do not need revision or analysis, then you have nothing to contribute to this thread, so be on your way and don’t intrude where you have nothing to offer. Do not waste our time with conformist platitudes. Do not come in here and defend film decisions that are considered flaws by contributing posters, unless you have another aspect in mind that does need changing and post an equal or greater portion of text discussing a criticism or suggesting an idea for an existing or hypothetical product that is very faithful to the source material.
We’re here to talk amongst ourselves, and anyone who disagrees with the spirit of this thread is in no way obligated to read any of the content herein or reply. Any of the behavior I described above that occurs here is trolling, pure and simple. This thread isn’t about argument and hostility. The only personal criticism that should occur is that which is directed toward the producers (meaning anyone involved in the production in any way) of preexisting superhero products, and even that should be kept reasonably limited, since everyone who truly belongs in this thread is assumed to have some level of disagreement with said producers, sometimes to the point of resentment. We need not spend excessive time on blaming them for their failings, but don’t hold back your true feelings on those screw-ups either. Disagreement between rule-abiding posters is fine. Just keep it civil and within the guidelines. Or else.


Nobody is allowed to use terms like “fanboy,” “nerd,” “purist,” “hater,” or anything like that in a derogatory manner toward other posters or comic fans in general in this thread. The word "whining" and the like-- unless used with regard to a character in a movie, comic book or TV show (ex. “Spider-Man was quite the whiner...”)—is forbidden, as is “nitpicking,” and anything else intended to bully anyone into complacency and acceptance of existing products. The phrase “impossible standards” and anything to the effect of “movies and comics are different mediums, so there have to be changes,” “the general audience will not accept the same things comics fans will,” and “people want to see realism,” if not accompanied by a massive amount of faithful and potentially marketable ideas meant to compensate or work around these alleged “facts,” are also strictly forbidden.
It is okay to suggest minor deviations from the source material for this topic, as long as the majority of the ideas you put forth—or are simply replying to and agree with—are consistent with the source material and/or significantly more faithful than previous existing adaptations.
Please do not include concepts based on Marvel's Ultimate Universe that differ greatly from the real Marvel Universe (616). I realize this is largely subjective, so I'll have to shoulder the terrible burden of deciding what is "faithful enough;" I'll try not to be capricious about it.**That last rule was added on 6/03/06, so contributors who began sharing concepts that are overall strongly based on the Ultimate Universe prior to that may continue to further develop them (example: The Question proposed a movie for 'The Ultimates' on 6/02/06, so that, as a movie or a multi-film franchise, gets a free pass forevermore). Other posters should not start posting that type of material, or rather they should be aware that I will address it and judge the content acceptable or unacceptable. Thanks for bearing with me.

Do not belittle classic superhero or villain costumes. Do not use the word "panties" to describe those shorts that some heroes wear over their tights. It's fine to describe a costume as "tights" as long as they actually are and you aren't belittling anything. It's not okay to use the word "Spandex" to describe a costume from the comics that is not actually made of it, unless you're suggesting that Spandex, Lycra, etc. be used in the production of the movie, or maybe suggesting Neoprene or something else over it. Using the term "gay" in any derogatory sense whatsoever in this thread will result in an immediate report to a moderator, without warning, whether or not you've read this.
Again, it’s okay to disagree with a person’s criticism of a movie if you have another one to share, but do not post remarks about an existing or real-life upcoming film if you have no significant complaints about any of the productions being discussed.

I hope the guidelines are clear. Everyone is welcome to contribute or comment, as long as they follow the rules and don’t make any criticisms that are not relevant to the thread. You either belong here or you don’t, and that choice is up to you , so have respect enough to let the environment herein reflect the title of this thread.
Anyone who violates the rules or causes trouble will be promptly reported.

Thank you for your cooperation.


It is recommended, but not strictly required, that you supply a unique title at the beginning of each new post, especially when it isn’t a reply to another’s post. This will help in identifying the topic of each new post at a glance and finding specific posts with the Hype’s search engine. You can resend older posts in the appropriate thread and add titles to them.
Examples:

“Hunter Rider’s Iron Man concept #1”
“Herr Logan’s ‘Batman: Dark Knight Detective’ video game,”
“Everyman’s Captain America movie series concept #1”
“Zev’s Daredevil TV Show concept”
“Logan & Zaphod’s Batman movie series concept.”

Welcome to the Safe Haven. Enjoy!


Here are a few posts from the original thread (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6248395#post6248395)to check out. Make sure to check the quoted portions, as several of these posts are two-for-one deals (which is why so many of mine are here, because I almost always reply to people’s posts and frequently use quotes from other posts). Also, most of these links lead to single post pages, but if you open those pages and click on the thread title link in the upper right corner, it will take you to that post in the full thread, where you can see what came before and afterward. If I’ve confused you and you need help navigating the links, just ask.



Spider-Man Haven Posts
(check next post)


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

--George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"

[Herr Logan]

Spider-Man Haven Posts from the original Safe Haven thread (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189562)

http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6249572&postcount=8
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6249949&postcount=9
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6250396&postcount=11
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6251757&postcount=14
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6255136&postcount=21
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6256350&postcount=24
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6256630&postcount=25
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6259394&postcount=28
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6259703&postcount=30
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6260372&postcount=33
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6260547&postcount=38
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6261755&postcount=42
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6265579&postcount=51
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6265992&postcount=54
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6266303&postcount=55
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6266584&postcount=57
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6275979&postcount=69
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6279804&postcount=73
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6280304&postcount=74
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6285732&postcount=78
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6290444&postcount=89
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6293670&postcount=94
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6294091&postcount=95
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6296216&postcount=98
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6303635&postcount=103
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6310216&postcount=119
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6332905&postcount=153
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6334072&postcount=155
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6336086&postcount=160
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6336898&postcount=161
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6338763&postcount=167
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6372159&postcount=209
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6372486&postcount=210
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6372681&postcount=212
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6378580&postcount=220
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6382900&postcount=223
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6394065&postcount=225
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6423324&postcount=230
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6781368&postcount=312
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6804798&postcount=338
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6822809&postcount=351
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6822813&postcount=352
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6877910&postcount=410
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6879149&postcount=415
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6879194&postcount=416
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...00#post7726800
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...67#post7771667
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...84#post7797384
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...44#post7901144
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...17#post7904217
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...34#post7910034
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...42#post7910942
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...41#post7918341
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...14#post7918714
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8271923&postcount=974
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8288807&postcount=994
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8305968&postcount=1012





In case anyone wants a good argument to use against people who automatically and thoughtlessly shoot down the idea of using a more faithful superhero costume than filmmakers are likely to use, read this post (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8943722&postcount=6).

It's more or less air-tight, except for the fact that value judgements on these kinds of things are completely subjective. However, If an anti-source material studio apologist states a value judgement as if it has concrete value, then my argument is completely air-tight.

I'm proud of it because it's probably the first time I put that concept together in cogent words that didn't go on for pages and pages of sprawling, tangential text. I guess the secret to relatively succinct and logical posts for me is to be pissed off and succumbing to the effects of Tylenol PM. Weird...

:wolverine

[Abaddon]

Rough outline for Spider-man movie:

Origin story.
Pete goes to high school with Harry,Flash,and Liz.
Gets bitten by spider
Learns of his powers,lets it get to his head
Exploits his abilities for money.
Ben dies,he learns responsibility lesson.
Becomes a hero
Meets Gwen Stacy in college.
Norman makes a brief cameo
Captain Stacy is introduced
Meets Doc Ock.
Doc Ock has his accident.Begins to set some plan into motion which endangers the lives of many.
Parallel established between Doc Ock letting his hubris get to him,and Pete learning responsibility.
Gwen tries to get close to Peter.Pete's still reluctant because of his secret.
Doc Ock fights Spidey.Captain Stacy dies.
Spidey's villainized.
Pete wants to reveal his feelings to Gwen but she voices her hatred of Spidey.
Spidey defeats Doc Ock and saves a bunch of people.
Movie ends on a high note somehow,with Spidey saving somebody or something.

Bada-Bing Bada-Boom.:cool:

[Herr Logan]

Rough outline for Spider-man movie:

Origin story.
Pete goes to high school with Harry,Flash,and Liz.
Gets bitten by spider
Learns of his powers,lets it get to his head
Exploits his abilities for money.
Ben dies,he learns responsibility lesson.
Becomes a hero
Meets Gwen Stacy in college.
Norman makes a brief cameo
Captain Stacy is introduced
Meets Doc Ock.
Doc Ock has his accident.Begins to set some plan into motion which endangers the lives of many.
Parallel established between Doc Ock letting his hubris get to him,and Pete learning responsibility.
Gwen tries to get close to Peter.Pete's still reluctant because of his secret.
Doc Ock fights Spidey.Captain Stacy dies.
Spidey's villainized.
Pete wants to reveal his feelings to Gwen but she voices her hatred of Spidey.
Spidey defeats Doc Ock and saves a bunch of people.
Movie ends on a high note somehow,with Spidey saving somebody or something.

Bada-Bing Bada-Boom.:cool:

Nice outline. :up:

It gets into the really tragic stuff right off in the first movie (Cap. Stacy's death on top of Uncle Ben's). A bold move.

Thanks for posting, Abaddon, but I must point out that you've changed your signature quote twice in as many days. Do you even have standards anymore??

:wolverine

[Abaddon]

Nah,I'm just fickle.

[Herr Logan]

Would you have sequels to this movie? If so, how many do you think you'd want?

:wolverine

[Abaddon]

2,to make a trilogy.And maybe some other films later down the line.

[Herr Logan]

2,to make a trilogy.And maybe some other films later down the line.

I'm assuming the Green Goblin would be the main villain for the second film. Who'd be the main villain of the third?

Also, would you have just one villain per movie or several, and in what capacity?


:wolverine

[Abaddon]

I'm assuming the Green Goblin would be the main villain for the second film. Who'd be the main villain of the third?

Also, would you have just one villain per movie or several, and in what capacity?


:wolverine


I was actually thinking of having GG for the third film.the second would introduce MJ and the villain would either be Chameleon,Kraven,or someone else I havent considered.:confused:


There would definitely be some villain cameos for the second and third stringers.I don't really like the idea of multiple villains in a movie(that brought up some horrible flashbacks to the early Bat-franchise),but thats not to say that it could never be pulled off well.

[Herr Logan]

I was actually thinking of having GG for the third film.the second would introduce MJ and the villain would either be Chameleon,Kraven,or someone else I havent considered.:confused:


There would definitely be some villain cameos for the second and third stringers.I don't really like the idea of multiple villains in a movie(that brought up some horrible flashbacks to the early Bat-franchise),but thats not to say that it could never be pulled off well.

Kraven and the Chameleon could easily go in the same movie.

I know mutiple villains in one movie could be pulled off well, if competent filmmakers truly wanted it.

:wolverine

[Abaddon]

Alright,quick treatment for the sequel-


Peter becomes frustrated and a bit disillusioned with the idea of being a hero.Gwen Stacy,still angry for her fathers death has publically denounced Spider-Man as a dangerous vigilante.It's clear her grief has clouded her judgment.In spite of her hatred of Spider-man she still wants to be with Peter,and can't understand why he spurns her advances.Aside from this he's having trouble in school,and is fired as a TA by Dr. Connors.He runs into Flash and Liz from High School,and they have an exchange,with a slightly matured Flash showing no remorse for having bullied Peter in the past.This scene would also establish his admiration for Spider-Man.Aunt May,being unaware of Peter's feelings for Gwen,decides to set up a date for him,which Peter is too busy for,since he's got other things on his mind....


Chameleon appears as a spy/assasin(havent decided how to clear that up) sent to take out some foreign diplomat/s.His first attempt fails however,when Spidey show up on the scene(The diplomat is only injured).He gets into a heated battle,and after a a hard up exposes his true appearance,to Spideys surprise.Chameleon manages to escape,however,when Peter goes into his street clothes he finds his Spider-sense going beserk at a subway station.He figures it's coming from a man in a business suit and follows after him to make sure he doesn't do anything crazy.The man goes into the tunnel and by this time Peter has realized something is up,and quickly changes back into Spider-Man.He calls the man out and Cham makes a break for it,coming out from beneath the streets.Spidey catches up and they have it out in an alley.Then I thought up this exchange just now:
Spider-Man: Who are you?
Chameleon: Who am I? *mimics Spider-Man's appearance*
Spider-Man: Oh great,an existential villain.:rolleyes:

Or maybe it just sounds good in my head.:o

But anyway,they go at it,and it ends with Chameleon going into the street and disappearing among the onlookers.Peter meanwhile decides to try and figure out why the diplomat was targeted,and he's given some insight by a few of the staff at The Bugle.Chameleon realizing he can't allow Spider-man to be a burden contracts his old associate Kraven(who've I altered a bit so that he's seen taking the serum several times during the film.The dosage depens on the size of the quarry).

More later...

[Herr Logan]

Alright,quick treatment for the sequel-


Peter becomes frustrated and a bit disillusioned with the idea of being a hero.Gwen Stacy,still angry for her fathers death has publically denounced Spider-Man as a dangerous vigilante.It's clear her grief has clouded her judgment.In spite of her hatred of Spider-man she still wants to be with Peter,and can't understand why he spurns her advances.Aside from this he's having trouble in school,and is fired as a TA by Dr. Connors.He runs into Flash and Liz from High School,and they have an exchange,with a slightly matured Flash showing no remorse for having bullied Peter in the past.This scene would also establish his admiration for Spider-Man.Aunt May,being unaware of Peter's feelings for Gwen,decides to set up a date for him,which Peter is too busy for,since he's got other things on his mind....


Chameleon appears as a spy/assasin(havent decided how to clear that up) sent to take out some foreign diplomat/s.His first attempt fails however,when Spidey show up on the scene(The diplomat is only injured).He gets into a heated battle,and after a a hard up exposes his true appearance,to Spideys surprise.Chameleon manages to escape,however,when Peter goes into his street clothes he finds his Spider-sense going beserk at a subway station.He figures it's coming from a man in a business suit and follows after him to make sure he doesn't do anything crazy.The man goes into the tunnel and by this time Peter has realized something is up,and quickly changes back into Spider-Man.He calls the man out and Cham makes a break for it,coming out from beneath the streets.Spidey catches up and they have it out in an alley.Then I thought up this exchange just now:
Spider-Man: Who are you?
Chameleon: Who am I? *mimics Spider-Man's appearance*
Spider-Man: Oh great,an existential villain.:rolleyes:

Or maybe it just sounds good in my head.:o

But anyway,they go at it,and it ends with Chameleon going into the street and disappearing among the onlookers.Peter meanwhile decides to try and figure out why the diplomat was targeted,and he's given some insight by a few of the staff at The Bugle.Chameleon realizing he can't allow Spider-man to be a burden contracts his old associate Kraven(who've I altered a bit so that he's seen taking the serum several times during the film.The dosage depens on the size of the quarry).

More later...

Sounds very cool so far.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of fight would the Chameleon put up? Is he a trained combatant? Is he armed?

It would be an alteration, but I could definitely go for a Chameleon that, while not nearly able to truly beat Spider-Man in a fair fight, could take on most "normal" human opponents. It's that whole super-spy thing he's got goin' on.
I could even accept a Chameleon that had a gift for mimicking physical skills (not to the degree of the Taskmaster, but a similar kind of ability).

Also, how does he shape his form in this? Does he physically morph into a different form? Holographic image inducer? Those latex masks they use in the Mission: Impossible movies?

Thanks for posting. :up:

:wolverine

[Abaddon]

Sounds very cool so far.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of fight would the Chameleon put up? Is he a trained combatant? Is he armed?

It would be an alteration, but I could definitely go for a Chameleon that, while not nearly able to truly beat Spider-Man in a fair fight, could take on most "normal" human opponents. It's that whole super-spy thing he's got goin' on.
I could even accept a Chameleon that had a gift for mimicking physical skills (not to the degree of the Taskmaster, but a similar kind of ability).

Also, how does he shape his form in this? Does he physically morph into a different form? Holographic image inducer? Those latex masks they use in the Mission: Impossible movies?

Thanks for posting. :up:

:wolverine

Oh,Chameleon would defintely have some mean fighting skills.Of course,when he's on mission he'll most likely use some fancy weaponry,or if the situation doesn't call for it something subtler(like a scene I have planned later).


The idea I've got so far is that his skin somewhat malleable and is able to mimic hair,skin tone,etc.He does use an image inducer to change the appearance of his clothing though.I have no idea how to explain any of that.:o


I might change that around some.:confused:

[Herr Logan]

Oh,Chameleon would defintely have some mean fighting skills.Of course,when he's on mission he'll most likely use some fancy weaponry,or if the situation doesn't call for it something subtler(like a scene I have planned later).

Ah, I forgot to mention cool spy gadgets!

Also, Kraven the Hunter should be using advanced, high-tech gadgets as well, specifically suited for hunting and capturing the most dangerous prey. As much as the 2003 MTV Spider-Man series overall was crappy, they're so-called "update" of Kraven was acceptable. I'd still have him wear a real lion's pelt and various animal-skin leathers in my own movie.

The idea I've got so far is that his skin somewhat malleable and is able to mimic hair,skin tone,etc.He does use an image inducer to change the appearance of his clothing though.I have no idea how to explain any of that.:o

I might change that around some.:confused:

There's no real need for an explanation if it's a holographic image inducer, at least not past "it creates a holographic disguise that can look like anything of a comparable size and shape to the Chameleon's own body."

As for actual shapeshifting, I'd personally prefer an explanation (ex. "he underwent a radical surgery that implanted malleable, versatile, artificial, cybernetically-controlled tissues in his face and scalp"; "his head-mask constructs whatever shape, color and texture he wants and is controlled by cybernetic commands"), and I'm sure many other people would, too, but as long as it's stated that he's using holograms and/or is actually rearranging his features physically, there isn't a strict need for it.


I would have some villain cameos in my own Spider-Man franchise that may or may not have explanations for their powers. Electro is one of them, since he would not be a "plot villain" (as in he's there for the action, not to advance a central super-plot). The Shocker would probably be that way, too, although I'd have someone point out, either before or after the Shocker is defeated and handed over to the cops, that it's machines that create the shock waves, not inherent superpowers, and that his costume is protection against the feedback. Then again, the Shocker was "in the system" when he created those devices and he used them to escape, so the cops would be more likely to know the deal when he's brought back in (I'll never understand why they allowed prisoners access to a workshop in the Marvel Universe; you'd think they'd learn...). Electro, however, got his powers outside of jail and was never a convict until he used them.

Anyway, good stuff, Abaddon. :up:

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Additional Rule :
Please do not include concepts based on Marvel's Ultimate Universe that differ greatly from the real Marvel Universe (616). I realize this is largely subjective, so I'll have to shoulder the terrible burden of deciding what is "faithful enough;" I'll try not to be capricious about it.* *That last rule was added on 6/03/06, so contributors who began sharing concepts that are overall strongly based on the Ultimate Universe prior to that may continue to further develop them (example: The Question proposed a movie for 'The Ultimates' on 6/02/06, so that, as a movie or a multi-film franchise, gets a free pass forevermore). Other posters should not start posting that type of material, or rather they should be aware that I will address it and judge the content acceptable or unacceptable. Thanks for bearing with me.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Starting here (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9369156#post9369156)are some comments I and other true believers have made on the subject of a Green Goblin costume. I think some of these ideas were mentioned in the original thread and can be found in the links in the first post of this thread.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

This is the mask I would use for the Green Goblin costume in my Spider-Man movies. The link in my previous post leads to my description of the full costume, spread over a couple posts.

:wolverine


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v118/dr.dude/GGmask_1.jpg

[Abaddon]

I haven't decided whether or not I'd go with a Kraven's Last Hunt-esque ending. But most likely it won't. That stuff can be saved for an animated series based off the movies or something once the trilogy is done.

[Herr Logan]

I haven't decided whether or not I'd go with a Kraven's Last Hunt-esque ending. But most likely it won't. That stuff can be saved for an animated series based off the movies or something once the trilogy is done.

I wouldn't do Kraven's Last Hunt in a movie, either.

I'd probably have him turn himself into the police, having promised beforehand to do just that if Spider-Man defeated him during the Hunt. As sketchy as Kraven's sense of honor was in the original comics (using elaborate, high-tech traps while boasting about his "prowess"... this is something he addressed at some point while talking to Calypso), I liked that he had it. I'd have him outright say that he's not above using his expensive, state-of-the-art arsenal of weapons, gadgets and traps in addition to his artificially-enhanced physical powers to hunt prey as dangerous and powerful as Spider-Man, and that the only way to defeat him is to outsmart him, thus overcoming all of those factors in Kraven's favor. In the jungle, with an animal with less intelligence and power than Spider-Man (which is any animal in the entire Kingdom), more traditional tools, traps and techniques would be appropriate, butsince he believes Spider-Man's powers are probably either the result of being a mutant or of modern technology, he warrants using the best tools humans can offer.


Speaking of animated series, I would definitely like to create one that is very closely based on the comics, choosing the best stories and villains and starting from the beginning, basically going in order. The show could take place in the 21st century and still retain almost all of the important aspects of the mythos for all of the characters (I'd still go with radiation for most of the radiation-spawned characters, but also use genetic engineering for characters who were deliberately transformed into what they became, such as the Scorpion). One main difference would be the cultural references and slang used (again, because of the time shift), but the dialogue should remain intelligent and witty, and would not in any way be more similar to Brian Michael Bendis' uninspired dialogue than necessary. In fact, the Spider-Man from the 90's animated series wasn't far off from the real deal in his dialogue a lot of the time.

There would have to be real guns when real guns are required (like for cops and common criminals), not lasers and other energy weapons as was the case in the 90's animated series. Hell, I'd gladly allow a not-so-subtle anti-gun theme running throughout if it let me keep things as they should be.
The restraints on language and violence should be no more severe than they were on the early Spider-Man comics of the 60's. If I even included Morbius as a villain (and he would be a grown-up hematologist, not Peter Parker's classmate and romantic rival... likewise, not everybody would go to the same school or work for the same people or know each other) , he wouldn't be hungering for "plasma." He'd be hungering for blood, God dammit, and he'd take it by tearing open people's necks with his fangs, not absorbing it through those disgusting hand-sucker thingies. Was that supposed to be less disturbing than using his fangs? Also, Spider-Man would actually be allowed to punch people, which he wasn't in the 90's series.

There would be action befitting the comics Spider-Man universe, which would be more like the 90's show than the MTV CGI series, which was ridiculous in its physics mechanics, and much too "cartoony." I want animation that looks like it could have been drawn by John Romita, Gil Kane, and other classic artists (I didn't mention Steve Ditko only because his style wasn't as clean and fit for animation, not because he wasn't talented). The show could even be fully CGI, but only if they did a much better job than the MTV show.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

****spoiler Warning**** (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242468)

This is why I don't want to see pretty much anything solely taken from Ultimate comics put forth in a Marvel Safe Haven thread. Good God...


What's hilarious is the person saying it must be bull***** because the thing with Ben Reilly's sonic cannon is corny. Yeah, because Sam Raimi wouldn't-- I mean hasn't-- put anything corny into the Spider-Man movie franchise, right? They've all been completely free of corn and cheese, and furthermore are hella tight and wicked cool, ya heard??

:wolverine

[Bullseye]

I think the Green Goblin should continually wreak havoc on Spider-Man during the next sequels. Green Goblin has been a brutal character in the comics and I would to see Goblin be a main focus point in the next few films.

Norman looked to Peter as a son. It would like to see that intensify and Harry becomes involved thus bringing things full circle.

By the way, Herr Logan is one of the most brilliant posters at the Hype. Always keeping it interesting at the Hype.

[Tangled Web]

Rough outline for Spider-man movie:

Origin story.
Pete goes to high school with Harry,Flash,and Liz.
Gets bitten by spider
Learns of his powers,lets it get to his head
Exploits his abilities for money.
Ben dies,he learns responsibility lesson.
Becomes a hero
Meets Gwen Stacy in college.
Norman makes a brief cameo
Captain Stacy is introduced
Meets Doc Ock.
Doc Ock has his accident.Begins to set some plan into motion which endangers the lives of many.
Parallel established between Doc Ock letting his hubris get to him,and Pete learning responsibility.
Gwen tries to get close to Peter.Pete's still reluctant because of his secret.
Doc Ock fights Spidey.Captain Stacy dies.
Spidey's villainized.
Pete wants to reveal his feelings to Gwen but she voices her hatred of Spidey.
Spidey defeats Doc Ock and saves a bunch of people.
Movie ends on a high note somehow,with Spidey saving somebody or something.

Bada-Bing Bada-Boom.:cool:
That's how you do it! Get Kevin Smith, get Stan Lee and make this into a picture.

[Tangled Web]

Damn Abaddon and Logan, you guys have talent.

[Herr Logan]

I think the Green Goblin should continually wreak havoc on Spider-Man during the next sequels. Green Goblin has been a brutal character in the comics and I would to see Goblin be a main focus point in the next few films.

Norman looked to Peter as a son. It would like to see that intensify and Harry becomes involved thus bringing things full circle.


You mean in a new franchise done by you, or the current existing one?

By the way, Herr Logan is one of the most brilliant posters at the Hype. Always keeping it interesting at the Hype. Damn Abaddon and Logan, you guys have talent.
Aw, yer makin' me blush over here.. :O

Thank you both kindly, and Welcome to the Haven. :up:


:wolverine

[Tangled Web]

I like it here, on the SPidey sequel board I asked if Spider-Man should some day get a relaunch (Batman Begins) and I'm getting ridiculed on there. I'm also getting bombarded for criticizing Spidey's ymbiote suit and the Green Goblin II's costume.

[Abaddon]

Damn Abaddon and Logan, you guys have talent.

Thank you.:confused::O:up:

I like it here, on the SPidey sequel board I asked if Spider-Man should some day get a relaunch (Batman Begins) and I'm getting ridiculed on there. I'm also getting bombarded for criticizing Spidey's ymbiote suit and the Green Goblin II's costume.

You're safe here.:o

I actually think a relaunch would be good in about a decade. The movies are too popular now for one to be done in th next few years.

[Tangled Web]

You're safe here.:o

I actually think a relaunch would be good in about a decade. The movies are too popular now for one to be done in th next few years.
I agree, I think Stan Lee and Kevin Smith should get cracking on it now. Maybe they should use some of your ideas. :up:

[Abaddon]

ehh....I dunno about Kevin Smith.

[Tangled Web]

That man know his comics. Well, maybe he could help write and then we'd get Peter Jackson to direct.

[Abaddon]

It would definitely have to be someone who respects the comics,and has the imagination and ambition(though not too much) to pull it off.

[Tangled Web]

Definitley.

[Tangled Web]

Get some hardcore Spider-Man fans to help write it. :)

[Abaddon]

they'll be at each others throats the whole time.:p

[Herr Logan]

I like it here, on the SPidey sequel board I asked if Spider-Man should some day get a relaunch (Batman Begins) and I'm getting ridiculed on there. I'm also getting bombarded for criticizing Spidey's ymbiote suit and the Green Goblin II's costume.

Right, I saw that. Those people are cowardly, conformist drones with inadequate intelligence and individual identity issues who will not only accept whatever is thrown at them, but they actually take criticism of these movies as personal insults. It's disgusting behavior, and its overwhelming presence on the Hype is why I created the various Safe Havens. I'll stay out of threads that clearly state that only supporters of the stated topic are welcome, and mindless sheep are prohibited from coming in here. In mixed company threads, however, they still have to watch out for me.

It's been clear from the beginning that Spider-Man needed a relaunch. If they aren't willing to do it right, then they shouldn't do it at all, so I don't care when it happens. Certain things are necessary for movies to be faithful to various characters, and if they can't muster up the balls to do it right with the resources they have, then it would be a waste of money.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

ehh....I dunno about Kevin Smith.

Oh, God no... Kevin Smith is too much of an arrogant bastard to write or direct a major Marvel franchise correctly. Granted, I'm an arrogant bastard, too, but the difference is that I haven't made millions of dollars off of characters I've created, so I'm not under the delusion that I can twist the characters, themes and events and get away with it based on my own previous accomplishments.

I'd want the job of producer and overall editor for these ideal superhero franchises. I know I don't have the ability to do the writing on my own or the directing, but I know what belongs and doesn't belong in a faithful movie series, more or less. And nobody can say that I'm not willing to make some changes for the sake of a movie format, because I'm actually worried about the number of changes I've suggested for various franchises (wondering if the conformist apologists haven't somehow penetrated my subconscious or something), especially an X-Men one (since their history is more complex than many others and I want to capture a bigger range of history for them than for Spider-Man).

It would definitely have to be someone who respects the comics,and has the imagination and ambition(though not too much) to pull it off.

Damn right!

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

That man know his comics. Well, maybe he could help write and then we'd get Peter Jackson to direct.
Kevin Smith ruined his comics cred with 'Spider-Man and Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do.' I wouldn't want him anywhere near movies I'd want made (unless it was a minor cameo, thrown in for added fan appeal, which is admittedly kind of a sleazy thing to do).

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Get some hardcore Spider-Man fans to help write it. :)
they'll be at each others throats the whole time.:p
Oh Lawdy, yes, they would. :o

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

I'm going to confess something about myself, and I'm going to put it in context.

The black costume in 'Spider-Man 3.' I'm not completely against the visual design. The spider on the front needs to be a hell of a lot bigger and reach into an identical one on his back, that much is unquestionable, but I'm not completely against the basic design. That is not in any conceivable way a compliment or condoning of everything else they've completely screwed up about this move (every single other thing, basically).

Here's the thing-- I wouldn't have given Spider-Man raised web patterns on his regular in my ideal Spider-Man franchise. It would not have been that fancy, at all. These worthless, insecure sheep who prattle on about "realism" as a way of defending failure seem to somehow accept the idea of a broke-ass teenager making something like that by himself, and no, Peter David trying to make excuses for that in the novelization of 'Spider-Man 2,' like he often does in thos novelizations, does not justify this, at all. It's bull*****, plain and simple.
Anyway, I'd probably have the web-lines drawn on in permanent ink, or pressed on with one of those pressing things that put designs on shirts.

If this was the case, then I think it would be more acceptable for the symbiote to add raised web-patterns. It wouldn't look like a cheap repainting, because the original costume would seem much cheaper (you know, like something more likely to be cobbled together at home by a broke teenager who is not a professional tailor) and the new one would seem fancier in some ways. It would be Peter trying to make it look more like his original suit, and enjoying the fact that he didn't need to meticulously and perfectly draw every line. He loves his new suit, especially since he can make it look like anything he wants and not have to wear two outfits all the time.
I'd have the symbiote produce organic webbing, just like in the comics, and obviously Spider-Man would have been using mechanical web-shooters up to that point (because that's what the real Spider-Man has always done, despite what studio apologist cowards want to believe). He'll once again enjoy the convenience of the symbiote's abilities.
I haven't decided that I'd have the symbiote change Peter's personality to be more aggressive. That was never in the comics, but rather the Animated Series. That doesn't mean I'm opposed to it, I'm just saying I know the actual story, whereas Sam Raimi probably never even read those issues. Even without making him more "evil," there's still a good reason for Spider-Man to want to get rid of it. It makes him web-swing and fight crime in his sleep, making him wake up more tired than when he went to sleep, and this continues for days. That alone could make him more irritable and reckless. When he finds out that he's been taking excursions in his sleep since he found the black suit, and also has noticed the suit moving by itself when not on him sometimes, he gets it checked out (probably by Curt Connors, unless a faithful Fantastic Four movie had already come out, in which case it might be Reed Richards, like it was in the comics). He finds out it's a symbiotic organism that wants to bond permanently with his physiology, possibly taking over all his brain functions. That makes it necessary to remove it.

Anyway, there's my qualified confession. Again, I'm not signing off on 'Spider-Man 3' in any way.


People seem to think that in the comics the Symbiote changed Spider-Man's personality and then drove Eddie Brock insane. That's not how it happened, or not fully. Spider-Man was only sleep-deprived, and while there's a good chance that the Symbiote's emotions changed Eddie Brock when they bonded, it's just as likely, if not more, that Brock drove the Symbiote crazy with his own craziness. I would want it made clear that Brock would be unstable before he comes into contact with it. Also, he'd obviously have no love triangle whatsoever with Spider-Man, since that never happened in the comics. Well, actually, there was a love triangle, but it was between Brock, the Symbiote and Spider-Man, not any human women. The Symbiote wanted Spider-Man, settled for Brock and then eagely came back to Peter when Spider-Man told it to come back (which didn't actually work and ended up shocking both men into unconsciousness because it was truly bonded to Brock, and that's exactly why Peter asked it to come back).

I'd have Venom be the very last major villain Spider-Man fought in my ideal film franchise, and it would end with Peter and Mary Jane being married. It's not because I don't like the character of Venom, because I do to a large degree.
I don't think I have to tell anyone that Peter's romance issues would never be the driving force or most important theme of my Spider-Man series. I actually do think that Peter's marriage to Mary Jane, while clearly offering many good story opportunities, ties the writers' hands in the long run. That is not a sign of approval for whatever Joe Quesada is planning in the comics, because any fan with half a brain knows you can't get rid of Mary Jane and move on at this point. Still, I'd want to put it off until the end of my movie franchise so we don't have to deal with the ramifications. I like young Spider-Man the best (not to be confused with 'Ultimate Spider-Man,' which, while in many ways is closer to the comics than Movie!Spider-Man, is in no way the real Spider-Man).
Also, Brock would never be a professional rival for Peter, and certainly not a photographer. He never was that in the comics. He was a writer for the news, not a photojournalist, and he worked for a rival news company. I think I could have considered the possibility of Brock working for the Daily Bugle (it would save on sets and the cost of extras) if not for Sam Raimi's atrocious watering-down of the entire Venom Saga. I may keep that open as a possibility, but either way, the original target of Brock's anger will be Spider-Man only, not Peter Parker. He only hates Parker subsequently because he happens to be Spider-Man.

:wolverine

[Bullseye]

You mean in a new franchise done by you, or the current existing one?

Specificly the existing franchise. It would involve Normin/Green Goblin returning to the franchise.

My thoughts about the new costume in Spider-Man 3. In my opinion, I think they got it right with the black costume. I couldn't really see the exact replica from the comics being put on the big screen.

It also goes along the saying that not everything in the comics can be transitioned to the films.

[Herr Logan]

Specificly the existing franchise. It would involve Normin/Green Goblin returning to the franchise.

My thoughts about the new costume in Spider-Man 3. In my opinion, I think they got it right with the black costume. I couldn't really see the exact replica from the comics being put on the big screen.

It also goes along the saying that not everything in the comics can be transitioned to the films.

Be careful with saying things like that last sentence. It verges on violating the rules, as it's very similar to “movies and comics are different mediums, so there have to be changes” which is a generic, unspecific buzz-word phrase that is specifically stated as unwelcome here. The philosophy of this and all other Safe Haven threads is that most things from the comics can be translated to film, with minor alterations here and there. For example, changing Electro's look from having yellow lightning bolts on a green catsuit and a starfish mask to dark green electric lineman's overalls and a star-shaped energy signature that forms around his head (instead of a mask) when he "powers up" is a change that still respects the source material. Throwing out a costume and star-shaped image over his head altogether and just giving him a trench coat or something like that (think Ultimate Electro, which is a piss-poor attempt at revamping the concept, like most Ultimate "innovations"... the best change I can think of in 'Ultimate Spider-Man' is giving the Enforcer named Montana a whip instead of a lasso) would not be an acceptable change. Likewise, getting rid of Wolverine's costume design altogether is lazy and disrespectful, whereas changing the coloring somewhat (like changing yellow and blue to orange and black... making it all black is unacceptable, unless a character wore it originally) and giving him a mask with sleek wingtips is fine.

It's not that the phrase isn't literally true, it's that too many people accept it without considering it and apply it to too many aspects from the comics. I say this because I don't want the anti-source material vibe that rages on outside this thread to penetrate and gain momentum. The purpose here is to make things as close to the comics as possible while allowing for minor changes that make sense and do not detract from the fantastic elements what is indisputably a fantastic and colorful genre. Examples of acceptable changes from the source material that were put into existing movies is having Norman Osborn's Goblin formula and glider built for the purposes of selling to the U.S. military, and the physical design of Movie!Ock's tentacle harness (not the part about AI programming overtaking the wearer's mind, though... that part unequivocally destroys the character of Dr. Octopus, and any suggestion to that effect is expressly forbidden here). Certain changes can be vast improvements, or slight improvements, or just a neutral effect. Most changes seen in existing movies have been detrimental for the purposes of this thread. They do not count as "faithful."

I know that any filmmaker worth a damn could make the comics version of the black suit look just fine on screen. A smooth black catsuit is one of the easiest things to get right in a superhero film. I don't sorta like the basic design of the movie's black costume (with exception for the incorrect spider design, which needs to be white, large and mirrored on the back, or it simply isn't the black Spider-Man costume) because I think the original version isn't good. I sorta like it because I think it would look cool, if it was in the context that the original red and blue suit didn't have raised webbing. As it is, it's a pretty lazy change. If the raised webbing was unique to the symbiote suit, then it would be an actual creative change.



:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Go to this thread now: it's Crisis on Infinite Safe Havens! (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9568845#post9568845)

Best of luck to you all, and thanks for all your contributions and support. :cool:

:wolverine

[Zev]

I'm Taking Over (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9616735#post9616735)

[Herr Logan]

Look again and read carefully. (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243174)

:wolverine

[Tangled Web]

Some Topher fanboy had the audacity to say I should be banned for not thinking Grace is good for the role.

[Herr Logan]

Some Topher fanboy had the audacity to say I should be banned for not thinking Grace is good for the role.

That is a sign of unforgivable weakness of character. He's so devoid of a personality of his own that he would say something that extreme in defense of something that really has absolutely nothing to do with him. Pathetic. People like that shouldn't be allowed to breath the air of decent, intelligent people.

:wolverine

[Greg_Mcduck]

Here's my complex outline-ish thing for a six movie Spider-Man series. The biggest problem with adapting anything into a movie series isn't about costume designs or cosmetic details like that, those are easy to get right no matter what Sam Raimi might tell you. The hardest this is figuring out how to inter-connect it all together. You can put Mysterio in at some point, but how does the character relate to everything else? Does Spider-Man go "Let's see, Tuesdays are Kraven fighting days, and Electro is a Thursday, so I'll just squeeze in Mysterio here on Wednesday?"

No, that'd be pretty silly, so you have to ask, how does something like a Mysterio plotline effect a Harry Osborn plotline, or a JJJ plotline? And you intercut the plotlines so it's all one movie instead of three mini-movies playing at the same time.

But in a classic six-film franchise, these connections begin to mutate the standard storyline, so that by the 6th movie, you got characters in complete different places than they originally were. It makes you ponder if Spider-Man should even be a multi-movie franchise.

WITH THAT SAID:

MOVIE ONE:

The first third of the movie opens with the classic Spider-Man origin. Peter is a very geeky kid in his senior year of high school, with a sort-of crush on Liz Allen and having to deal class bully Flash Thompson. Peter lives happily with his Aunt May and Uncle Ben, though financially they're just making ends meat. Aunt May is mostly concerned for his health, where as Ben tries to fuel Peter's ambitions in science, as well as tell Peter moral-rising stories about Peter's deceased parents.

Peter attends a science exhibition dealing with, among other things, radiation. One of the lab critters, a radioactive spider, escapes and bites Peter in the hand. Dr. Otto Octavius is among the presenters, though in no way is related to the spider or Peter Parker's storyline at this point.

Soon, Peter accidentally stumbles on a number of powers (none of which are organic webshooters). Peter decides to put these things to the test, making a super cheap makeshift costume and jumping into a ring with a professional wrestler. Peter beats him easily, and now with a super huge ego boost, decides to change his career path from science to entertainment.

Making a better-looking costume and some web shooters (it helps that the wrestling organization pays in cash), Peter, as the Amazing Spider-Man, begins doing stunts on television. He's a quick hit, perticularly with Flash Thompson. Thinking of himself nothing more than a performer, he fails to stop a thief from escaping the TV station, telling the security officer that it isn't his job. On his way back home, he discovers that the house was broken into and his Uncle Ben had been killed.

Furious, Spider-Man springs into action, finding the murderer surrounded in a warehouse. Spider-Man slips in and attacks the murderer, only to discover the killer is the same thief he had let escape earlier. Now full of guilt, Spider-Man webs the thief to a lamp post and returns home.

Peter graduates high school and manages to get into Empire State University thanks to science scholorships. Meanwhile, we learn that young John Jameson is returning from a long space flight. Peter Parker, disillusioned with entertainment and not yet a crime fighter, has returned to his goals in the fields of science, and he attends the re-entry. However, something goes wrong with the shuttle and it begins to fly out of control. Peter, realizing he's the only one who can do anything, puts on his suit, "kidnaps" a jet pilot to fly him close to the shuttle, swings onto the shuttle and quick-fixes the broken part, allowing to the shuttle to land safely.

Investigation begins on what happens. Among the crowd is Capt. George Stacy, who leads the investigation, and J.J Johnson, John Jameson's father and head of the Daily Bugle newspaper. J.J and Capt. Stacy are old friends (they both regular the country club), and together they figure out that the mysterious man must have been the Amazing Spider-Man from TV. Capt. Stacy wants to figure out who the Amazing Spider-Man is, but despite John's disapproval, J.J. immediatly dubs Spider-Man a menace in the paper. As J.J. is entering his office, he finds an envelope slipped under the seal of his window. It's a list of heists planned for the next couple of weeks, signed by The Vulture.

Peter Parker begins his college classes. There, he meets Gwen Stacy and Harry Osborn. Gwen is a strong woman, and recognizes Peter's intellect, perticularly after being hit on by Flash Thompson. Peter also takes a liking to Harry, who has a similar feeble look but with a bit of an attitude. Both in need of room mates, the two get an apartment on campus, most of the money coming from Harry's side.

Not soon after do we meet Norman Osborn, head of Oscorp. It's clear that Norman, well not exactly evil, isn't a very pleasant person. Overly polite to Peter, giving backhanded comments on how someone as smart as Peter can finally put Harry, who Norman sees a slacker, in his place. Harry is continuesly upset by this because he isn't "making the standards of the Osborn name". We get subtle hints that Harry is a pill popper.

Meanwhile, in a lab not too far away, Dr. Otto Octavius works on various experiments with radioactive material (funded by Oscorp, but hardly a central project like in SM2). He manipulates the materials with four mechanical arms attached to a metal girdle around his waist. He controls the basic arm functions with his mind thanks to the arms' attachments to his spine, and the fine detail work is handled by a built-in computer. Otto is egotistical for reaching near-celebrity status in the science community, and his attitude ultimatly leads him to making a mixture mistake, creating a huge explosion. Otto is rushed to the hospital, the mech-arms grafted onto his body. The doctors fear brain damage. Otto slips into a coma.

Meanwhile, the mysterious Vulture is getting away with every crime on his list! Museum guards just don't expect an attack from above. Not to mention none of the photographers at the Daily Bugle can get a good shot of the guy. Peter Parker walks into the Daily Bugle office, looking for work. Two things happen. First, he meets Betty Brant, J.J.'s secretary, who is slightly depressed after a recent breakup. Peter offers some humor while waiting for his meeting with J.J., which lightens up her day. Second, Peter tries to get a job as a photographer, but can't get an offical position. Not giving up, Peter decides to freelance, finds out where Vulture is going to strike next, and prepares.

The Vulture pulls off a jewel heist just as he planned, but before he can get away, he has an unexpected visitor: Spider-Man. The two duel it out in a high-speed air battle, with Spider-Man taking a few quick breathers to take some pictures (I imagine one funny scene where the Vulture flies chest to the sky, Spider-Man landing on the Vulture's stomach, saying "cheese," taking a picture of the Vulture's face, and then punching him in the face). It's a tough battle, but ultimatly, Spider-Man is the victor. Vulture is handed over to the police (which includes, of course, Capt. Stacy).

Peter returns to the Daily Bugle with his pictures, getting a decent price for them. However, Peter learns that some of them are used for the J.J.'s continuing smear campaign against Spider-Man. Betty is impressed by Peter, and Peter manages to convince Betty to go out on a date with him.

At the college, Gwen learns about the date and shows a tad bit of disappointment, but isn't heart broken. Peter, Gwen and Harry do a little college mucking around and have some fun. Capt. Stacy shows up to check on his daughter, and offically meets Peter for the first time. Capt. Stacy is curious about Peter and how he got such good photographs.

Peter and Gwen go on their date. The two learn they aren't exactly a star couple, when Gwen still thinking about "this Ned guy in Paris".

Otto wakes up from his coma. Now slightly insane, He begins to think of himself at all-powerful, and quickly holds the hospital hostage, turning it into a mock lab. Peter walks Betty back to the Daily Bugle office (where she forgot something or something), where they find J.J. just getting off the phone. J.J. tells of Doc Ock taking over the hospital, and sends Peter to take pictures.

Peter dons his Spider-Man suits and dives head first into trouble. He thinks of Doc Ock as nothing but a fat guy with big toys, but soon has his butt handed to him (including the ever-popular slap in the face). Doc Ock's ego only swells with his victory over Spider-Man, but his hostages escape during the battle, and Doc Ock decides to leave to pursue his various life goals.

Begin the final act. Peter isn't doing to good. A bad first date, news that Aunt May is doing horribly in ways of money, and now the loss to Doc Ock. With Harry's dark personality starting to get to him, Peter turns to the only person around, Gwen. The two of them start to get closer, and Gwen delivers the Oscar-winning speech(tm) that starts to motivate Peter again.

Meanwhile, Doc Ock has been doing a little home invasion, stealing from various scientists and labs, planning to use science to become the world's most powerful man. Capt. Stacy manages to work out the places Doc Ock is most likely to hit, and the police lay an ambush on him in a residental area, but Doc Ock quickly climbs to the roofs and out of harm's way.

Peter Parkers learns about this, and with Gwen's words and the promise he made for Uncle Ben in mind, Spider-Man swings into action against this seemingly impossible foe.

The roof top battle begins. Doc Ock is surprised at first that Spider-Man is still alive, but quickly regains footing. The two fight, Doc Ock super confident that he does things like tie his shoe in the middle of battle. Then it happens. A section of the roof dislodges. Capt. Stacy rushes in to save a kid from getting crushed, and gets crushed himself. Spider-Man, now fighting with everything he's got, manages to tie two of Doc Ock's metal arms together with a beam, giving him enough time to slip past the other two arms and finally lay a single punch to Doc Ock's face, knocking the doctor out. Quickly tying him up with web, Spider-Man lowers Doc Ock to the waiting police.

Spider-Man approaches the dying Capt. Stacy, who reveals that he knew it was Peter behind the mask. The Capt. passes away just as Gwen arrives to the scene. Gwen begins to accuse Spider-Man for her father's death. Spider-Man flees the scene.

We go to Capt. Stacy's funeral, then to the Daily Bugle office, where J.J. types up a headline "Spider-Man: Murderer." At an airport, Gwen gets ready to leave for Europe to try and settle with herself. Peter and Harry send her off.

Peter sits on a roof top, pondering about the responsibilities that have come crashing down on him. Police sirens are heard in the distance, and despite now being a wanted man, Spider-Man swings into action.

The final scene is of Doc Ock getting strapped into a special cell in a high security prison, his arms locked into place. We see Adrian Toomes, the former Vulture, peering from his own cell. One of the prisoners walks to Doc Ock's cell door.

"Hey, freak," says the con. "You may have been some fancy-pants who gave the cops the run around out there, but in here, I'm in charge."

Doc Ock looks up and smiles.

"Oh, really?"

Movie 2 outline (if you call these outlines. More like short stories) tomorrow.

[Greg_Mcduck]

Or Doc Ock could kidnap Betty Brant for the final battle, I totally forgot about that.

[JLBats]

I'm going to take a page from the essay in Herr Logan's sig. Amazing Spider-Man #1-150 is one epic story. It is THE Spider-Man story. And what makes it even better for me is that it isn't just the Spider-Man story. The very important thing about those 150 issues is that it largely revolves around the Peter Parker-Gwen Stacy story. For me, this story has three movements, which makes it perfect for either a trilogy of movies, which is prefered, or one three act movie that would seem a little rushed.

Movie One: Peter Parker and Gwen Stacy's first encounters, mutual attractions and beginning of a romance

Movie Two: The deepening of that relationship and Gwen Stacy's subsequent death

Movie Three: Peter moving on from Gwen

What's beautiful about this is that, since Gwen's death happens in movie 2, Harry and Norman are already established and have already been developed in movie 1. The main story would be Peter and Gwen's emotional development as a couple. I would also introduce Mary Jane here, who Peter, as he did in the comics, basically writes off as a vapid party girl. The story of the Green Goblin would be a subplot, that only fully crosses paths with the main plot at the end of Act Two, when Gwen is kidnapped. In act three, we get a dead-on retelling of the death of Gwen Stacy, and that includes the moment of connection at the end between Peter and Mary Jane, opening the doors for him moving on and falling for Mary Jane in movie three. For me, the perfect villian for movie three would be either the Chameleon or Mysterio, because they can toy with Peter's real feelings regarding Gwen.

The only thing I don't particularly like about those 150 comics is the Betty Brant romance. I don't think it fits the movies. You could have it as mutual flirtation, but for me Gwen is far more interesting and worthy of exploration.

[Herr Logan]

Here's my complex outline-ish thing for a six movie Spider-Man series. The biggest problem with adapting anything into a movie series isn't about costume designs or cosmetic details like that, those are easy to get right no matter what Sam Raimi might tell you. The hardest this is figuring out how to inter-connect it all together. You can put Mysterio in at some point, but how does the character relate to everything else? Does Spider-Man go "Let's see, Tuesdays are Kraven fighting days, and Electro is a Thursday, so I'll just squeeze in Mysterio here on Wednesday?"

No, that'd be pretty silly, so you have to ask, how does something like a Mysterio plotline effect a Harry Osborn plotline, or a JJJ plotline? And you intercut the plotlines so it's all one movie instead of three mini-movies playing at the same time.

But in a classic six-film franchise, these connections begin to mutate the standard storyline, so that by the 6th movie, you got characters in complete different places than they originally were. It makes you ponder if Spider-Man should even be a multi-movie franchise.

WITH THAT SAID:

MOVIE ONE:

The first third of the movie opens with the classic Spider-Man origin. Peter is a very geeky kid in his senior year of high school, with a sort-of crush on Liz Allen and having to deal class bully Flash Thompson. Peter lives happily with his Aunt May and Uncle Ben, though financially they're just making ends meat. Aunt May is mostly concerned for his health, where as Ben tries to fuel Peter's ambitions in science, as well as tell Peter moral-rising stories about Peter's deceased parents.

Peter attends a science exhibition dealing with, among other things, radiation. One of the lab critters, a radioactive spider, escapes and bites Peter in the hand. Dr. Otto Octavius is among the presenters, though in no way is related to the spider or Peter Parker's storyline at this point.

Soon, Peter accidentally stumbles on a number of powers (none of which are organic webshooters). Peter decides to put these things to the test, making a super cheap makeshift costume and jumping into a ring with a professional wrestler. Peter beats him easily, and now with a super huge ego boost, decides to change his career path from science to entertainment.

Making a better-looking costume and some web shooters (it helps that the wrestling organization pays in cash), Peter, as the Amazing Spider-Man, begins doing stunts on television. He's a quick hit, perticularly with Flash Thompson. Thinking of himself nothing more than a performer, he fails to stop a thief from escaping the TV station, telling the security officer that it isn't his job. On his way back home, he discovers that the house was broken into and his Uncle Ben had been killed.

Furious, Spider-Man springs into action, finding the murderer surrounded in a warehouse. Spider-Man slips in and attacks the murderer, only to discover the killer is the same thief he had let escape earlier. Now full of guilt, Spider-Man webs the thief to a lamp post and returns home.

Peter graduates high school and manages to get into Empire State University thanks to science scholorships. Meanwhile, we learn that young John Jameson is returning from a long space flight. Peter Parker, disillusioned with entertainment and not yet a crime fighter, has returned to his goals in the fields of science, and he attends the re-entry. However, something goes wrong with the shuttle and it begins to fly out of control. Peter, realizing he's the only one who can do anything, puts on his suit, "kidnaps" a jet pilot to fly him close to the shuttle, swings onto the shuttle and quick-fixes the broken part, allowing to the shuttle to land safely.

Investigation begins on what happens. Among the crowd is Capt. George Stacy, who leads the investigation, and J.J Johnson, John Jameson's father and head of the Daily Bugle newspaper. J.J and Capt. Stacy are old friends (they both regular the country club), and together they figure out that the mysterious man must have been the Amazing Spider-Man from TV. Capt. Stacy wants to figure out who the Amazing Spider-Man is, but despite John's disapproval, J.J. immediatly dubs Spider-Man a menace in the paper. As J.J. is entering his office, he finds an envelope slipped under the seal of his window. It's a list of heists planned for the next couple of weeks, signed by The Vulture.

Peter Parker begins his college classes. There, he meets Gwen Stacy and Harry Osborn. Gwen is a strong woman, and recognizes Peter's intellect, perticularly after being hit on by Flash Thompson. Peter also takes a liking to Harry, who has a similar feeble look but with a bit of an attitude. Both in need of room mates, the two get an apartment on campus, most of the money coming from Harry's side.

Not soon after do we meet Norman Osborn, head of Oscorp. It's clear that Norman, well not exactly evil, isn't a very pleasant person. Overly polite to Peter, giving backhanded comments on how someone as smart as Peter can finally put Harry, who Norman sees a slacker, in his place. Harry is continuesly upset by this because he isn't "making the standards of the Osborn name". We get subtle hints that Harry is a pill popper.

Meanwhile, in a lab not too far away, Dr. Otto Octavius works on various experiments with radioactive material (funded by Oscorp, but hardly a central project like in SM2). He manipulates the materials with four mechanical arms attached to a metal girdle around his waist. He controls the basic arm functions with his mind thanks to the arms' attachments to his spine, and the fine detail work is handled by a built-in computer. Otto is egotistical for reaching near-celebrity status in the science community, and his attitude ultimatly leads him to making a mixture mistake, creating a huge explosion. Otto is rushed to the hospital, the mech-arms grafted onto his body. The doctors fear brain damage. Otto slips into a coma.

Meanwhile, the mysterious Vulture is getting away with every crime on his list! Museum guards just don't expect an attack from above. Not to mention none of the photographers at the Daily Bugle can get a good shot of the guy. Peter Parker walks into the Daily Bugle office, looking for work. Two things happen. First, he meets Betty Brant, J.J.'s secretary, who is slightly depressed after a recent breakup. Peter offers some humor while waiting for his meeting with J.J., which lightens up her day. Second, Peter tries to get a job as a photographer, but can't get an offical position. Not giving up, Peter decides to freelance, finds out where Vulture is going to strike next, and prepares.

The Vulture pulls off a jewel heist just as he planned, but before he can get away, he has an unexpected visitor: Spider-Man. The two duel it out in a high-speed air battle, with Spider-Man taking a few quick breathers to take some pictures (I imagine one funny scene where the Vulture flies chest to the sky, Spider-Man landing on the Vulture's stomach, saying "cheese," taking a picture of the Vulture's face, and then punching him in the face). It's a tough battle, but ultimatly, Spider-Man is the victor. Vulture is handed over to the police (which includes, of course, Capt. Stacy).

Peter returns to the Daily Bugle with his pictures, getting a decent price for them. However, Peter learns that some of them are used for the J.J.'s continuing smear campaign against Spider-Man. Betty is impressed by Peter, and Peter manages to convince Betty to go out on a date with him.

At the college, Gwen learns about the date and shows a tad bit of disappointment, but isn't heart broken. Peter, Gwen and Harry do a little college mucking around and have some fun. Capt. Stacy shows up to check on his daughter, and offically meets Peter for the first time. Capt. Stacy is curious about Peter and how he got such good photographs.

Peter and Gwen go on their date. The two learn they aren't exactly a star couple, when Gwen still thinking about "this Ned guy in Paris".

Otto wakes up from his coma. Now slightly insane, He begins to think of himself at all-powerful, and quickly holds the hospital hostage, turning it into a mock lab. Peter walks Betty back to the Daily Bugle office (where she forgot something or something), where they find J.J. just getting off the phone. J.J. tells of Doc Ock taking over the hospital, and sends Peter to take pictures.

Peter dons his Spider-Man suits and dives head first into trouble. He thinks of Doc Ock as nothing but a fat guy with big toys, but soon has his butt handed to him (including the ever-popular slap in the face). Doc Ock's ego only swells with his victory over Spider-Man, but his hostages escape during the battle, and Doc Ock decides to leave to pursue his various life goals.

Begin the final act. Peter isn't doing to good. A bad first date, news that Aunt May is doing horribly in ways of money, and now the loss to Doc Ock. With Harry's dark personality starting to get to him, Peter turns to the only person around, Gwen. The two of them start to get closer, and Gwen delivers the Oscar-winning speech(tm) that starts to motivate Peter again.

Meanwhile, Doc Ock has been doing a little home invasion, stealing from various scientists and labs, planning to use science to become the world's most powerful man. Capt. Stacy manages to work out the places Doc Ock is most likely to hit, and the police lay an ambush on him in a residental area, but Doc Ock quickly climbs to the roofs and out of harm's way.

Peter Parkers learns about this, and with Gwen's words and the promise he made for Uncle Ben in mind, Spider-Man swings into action against this seemingly impossible foe.

The roof top battle begins. Doc Ock is surprised at first that Spider-Man is still alive, but quickly regains footing. The two fight, Doc Ock super confident that he does things like tie his shoe in the middle of battle. Then it happens. A section of the roof dislodges. Capt. Stacy rushes in to save a kid from getting crushed, and gets crushed himself. Spider-Man, now fighting with everything he's got, manages to tie two of Doc Ock's metal arms together with a beam, giving him enough time to slip past the other two arms and finally lay a single punch to Doc Ock's face, knocking the doctor out. Quickly tying him up with web, Spider-Man lowers Doc Ock to the waiting police.

Spider-Man approaches the dying Capt. Stacy, who reveals that he knew it was Peter behind the mask. The Capt. passes away just as Gwen arrives to the scene. Gwen begins to accuse Spider-Man for her father's death. Spider-Man flees the scene.

We go to Capt. Stacy's funeral, then to the Daily Bugle office, where J.J. types up a headline "Spider-Man: Murderer." At an airport, Gwen gets ready to leave for Europe to try and settle with herself. Peter and Harry send her off.

Peter sits on a roof top, pondering about the responsibilities that have come crashing down on him. Police sirens are heard in the distance, and despite now being a wanted man, Spider-Man swings into action.

The final scene is of Doc Ock getting strapped into a special cell in a high security prison, his arms locked into place. We see Adrian Toomes, the former Vulture, peering from his own cell. One of the prisoners walks to Doc Ock's cell door.

"Hey, freak," says the con. "You may have been some fancy-pants who gave the cops the run around out there, but in here, I'm in charge."

Doc Ock looks up and smiles.

"Oh, really?"

Movie 2 outline (if you call these outlines. More like short stories) tomorrow.
Excellent! You know your Spidey, Greg_Mcduck, and how to respect the source material. :up:

Personally, I think it's a little crowded for the average viewer, but I know I could enjoy it just fine.

The one thing I have a real problem is would be killing off Captain Stacy that early on. I don't feel there's enough time for him to really get to know Peter and figure out his secret, and I don't feel that Peter and the audience would have gotten attached enough. In my own Spider-Man series (which plays out very closely to how yours does in the first movie, with the biggest exception being John Jameson's shuttle re-entry and everything having to do with Gwen and George Stacy and Norman and Harry Osborn), the entire first movie takes place during Peter's senior year of high school, then introduces Gwen, George, Norman and Harry in college in Movie 2, then brings back Doc Ock in Movie 3, where he kills off George Stacy, then the Green Goblin returns in Movie 4 to kill Gwen. While there are some problems to work out in my own story structure, I felt giving Captain Stacy two movies to get situated before dying would be a good amount of time.

Overall, that's a fantastic set-up. I know most people couldn't even stand the thought of that much stuff in just one movie, but I say, if the movie is good enough, forgo all beverages before and during viewing!

A hearty "Welcome to the Haven" to you, Greg.

Or Doc Ock could kidnap Betty Brant for the final battle, I totally forgot about that.
Yeah, that's what I had in my movie treatment, which would lead to a comics-faithful breakupt (excluding Ned Leeds' presence), since she would leave him because he refused to give up the dangerous life of a photographer who chases metahuman vigilantes and criminals for action photos, and she's had enough peril in her life and can't take anymore.


By the way, your write-ups in the Battle of the Spider-Men! (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9705305#post9705305) thread are brilliant. :up:


:wolverine

[DACrowe]

I suppose an interesting thread. I myself enjoy Raimi's films immensely and think he has made an overall quite ogod adaptation to the screen, however they are not without their flaws as films (certain visual gags sound....distracting, for example like GG saying "Oh" before getting impaled or Aunt May catching herself on an Angel statue with her umbrella) and in story (how many ****ing times is MJ gonna' get kidnapped?) but overall I enjoy them.

As for faithfulness, well that is a very subjective subject now ain't it? ;) I myself would have done it differently and probably more faithful to the overall comic book but I think some changes I would not have made benefitted Raimi's movies greatly, while others felt like a bit of a lazy decision on David Koepp's part (making MJ more homely and modest).

But for discussion's sake my general outline for the franchise would've been a deeply more expanded version of what we got in many respects:

Spider-Man 1:
Pete is 18 in high school gets the power and the origin would've played a lot to how it did in the film (I love it being a hijacking instead of a burglary, makes more sense, but I admit I probably wouldn't have thought of that). He gets his powers on a field trip to Columbia from a radioactive spider. Yadda, yadda. However, there are two women he is attracted to. One being Gwen Stacy, the reluctant girlfriend of high school jock and bully Flash Thompson, and the girl next door that Aunt May sets Pete up with halfway through the origin, MJ (whose roll is far more over the top and senual and fun. She kinda' convinces Pete to embrace his more selfish sides helping lead to his confidence and anger of letting the thieve go).

I also would like to say organic webbing....I think it works better for the movies, not because it was in the movies but selling that an 18 year-old made them with no money is....well I just think organic webbing would save time and logic for a film. Then again I am being biased as at the same time I would like the costume (though I am not a director or costume designer so my say would be nigh) to look cool. Raised webbing or not I don't want it to be done with a magic marker. I know he reality he would but it just would be so cheesy if for 4 out of 5 films (or in the real franchise, 2 out of 3) for him to be wearing something that looks like would be in the bargain bin of costumes at Target.

The villain would be Doc Ock whose main goal would be the same but it is his ambition and cruelty that makes him wish to do it. He is ultimately a monster who wants to be recognized. Molian is pitch perfect but he is far less likeable and at the end he is tricked into helping save the city when he goes after to save his work from being destroyed. Despite MJ and Peter getting along she is flirting with Pete's only real friend Harry too and at the end he begins his courtship of Gwen Stacy. He is starting to date her, while still being on again/off again with the flirtatous (thoug she should never seem like a ***** or a slut, just a fun-loving girl) MJ.

All the while Harry's father Norman is in the background abusing Harry and obsessed with his work. He would also have been Otto's employer and drove Otto to such desperate circumstnaces that led to his accident.

Spider-Man 2: This would be Peter finally making things work and be really half a love story between him and Gwen as he finally chooses Gwen over MJ. MJ becames flaky and mean to Peter for this and dates Harry to get to Peter. At the same time, we have Norman do his experiment and gets the power he needs (again very much like in the first movie) but goes insane.

The Goblin costume for the record would be prosthetics instead of robo-mask though.

At first I would like a mirror conversation but as the story progresses the two personalities would merge. And by the third act he is no longer split but one twisted mother****er. He does offer Spider-Man a choice to join him but when it is turned down he merely figures out who Spidey is and is hurt (as he shows admiration for Peter while abusing Harry mentally) and wants revenge. He does put Aunt May in the hospital but downright injures her.

At the end the GG reveals his identity while at a formal birthday party for Harry (one that starts going bad when MJ breaks up with Harry and gets his anguish and she also gets Peter's disrespect) he subtely reveals he knows who Spidey is. The two end up duking it out before Norman can reveal it to to everyone at the Osborn Mansion and Peter is dragged along in the famous aSM #39 shot. It ends with Peter escaping and Norman says he has followed the wooman Pete loves for sometime and it is now he is going to finish what he started.

Peter runs to Aunt May in the hospital thinking he means her but Goblin doesn't show. A phone call comes for Peter and it is the line in the first movie followed by Gwen screaming (at this point Pete is all but engaged to Gwen). Peter goes to the Brooklyn Bridge and aSM #121 plays out and I rather like the brutal climax used in SM1 but much darker after Gwen's death. At the end MJ comforts Pete despite his anger and outbursts ala #122 and she takes him to Gwen's grave after having the bigger funeral for Harry's father, Norman. MJ is there for Pete (no love yet though) but he still walks away alone in a more negative ending.

Spider-Man 3:
I'm going to save time and just say that this is the Spider-Man: No More storyline (and yes more like in the movie) as he and MJ get close but because of Gwen and Spidey he pushes her away. All the while his professor has turned into a monster. Pete doesn't realize it until as Parker he finds out from Martha and Billy Conners what is going on (even after sparring with the Lizard before quitting a few times). This way his origin is done in flashback though we see Doc Conners in the first act of the movie. And he will be the first sympathetic villain really. Octavious is an obsessed fanatic if you will and Osborn was an ******* before donning the costume. Conners is truly sad as he was once a healer until Vietnam took his arm before he could begin his career and he had become cynical of man and Lizard is his dark side and view of humanity formed.

He realizes that Conners (after attacking his own family and scarring Billy to get a blood sample) is trying to cure himself but will kill himself instead. In the first he had to save the city from Ock, in the second his friends from GG and in the third though he is having to save a villain from himself. Between this and the Aunt May subplot he can't pursue the relationship he has started with a deeper and now more developed MJ. She keeps pushing him though because after the first act there is love even with Gwen gone, between them.

Spidey inevitably goes to the sewers to face the Lizard's machines and savagry. Que what I think shoud be the equivalent of ASM #367. Spider-Man tries to reason with Lizard to save him and instead Lizard buries him under a trainstation. He has to lift it (a la ASM #33) and dislocates his arm doing it. He makes a web-sling for himself in his last ditch ever to save Liz from going into the machine....but he FAILS. Conners has ruined his family though and maybe should die at the end anyway (a stray from the comics) but showing the burden of pursuing your interests and having love can do. Seeing the Conners family ruined, destroys Pete. At the end Pete breaks up whatever was starting with MJ and this time she is the one left in tears.

Spider-Man 4:

Harry Osborn goes mad and hires Sandman to kill Peter Parker. Sandman and Spidey do battle and so on. We also have Pete and MJ's relationship going sour as she moves on to get married. She ends up confronting him about their relationship but he won't make a move. Meanwhile, Sandman helps Harry unmask Peter and after knowing the truth he finds his father's lair the same way. Sandman seems like a careless thug in this one who escapes as we hurddle into the third act. Harry meanwhile goes insane and takes the formula. SM2's story with MJ finding out plays similar but much darker as it is brother vs. brother, MJ is engaged and Peter tries to talk her out of it but can't offer a good enough alternative. Harry then leaves an exploding Spider-Man in MJ's bed freaking her out and Peter finds Harry (after sparring with Harry and barely surviving at the beginning of the third act) helping Aunt May with her laundry. At the end Harry kidnaps MJ and will kill her to punish them for betraying him as friends. However in a fight in the burning Osborn Mansion (the past burns down) MJ is going to be crushed and Peter breaks his "momentous climax" which Harry has engineered to soothe the Norman spirit in his head (he acts more as if this is a movie than himself). Harry comes to his senses and sees that Peter can't hold it alone and his only friends will be crushed. Harry dies a hero saving MJ and Peter holding up a collapsing building for them to get out from under it and letting himself get buried in the rubble. The last few scenes should play similar to how they did in SM2, all though I'm not too keen about MJ leaving loverboy standing up at the alter, however JJ's line in that would be perfect.

Spider-Man 5:

Peter and MJ get engaged. Relationship problems abound. Pete gets symbiote. He is fighting Sandman still who got away from the last film. Sandman is revealed to hate his powers as they have given him cancer (again a stray) and he just wants the pain to end and he becomes a greier character in this movie. As symbiote Spidey he really can tear into Sandman but goes too far and the symbiote kills Sandman without Pete's approval. This is around the time Peter is a complete ******* to MJ and Spidey is cruel and the Bugle claims it was right all along. He gets rid of it and get Venom like his origin story but more stalking. He captures Peter Parker when his senses aren't going off and basically scares Parker ****less. Instead of standing his ground Peter runs. Venom catches him and says he would never rip Peter apart, he'll do that to MJ. He then beats a frantic Spidey to MJ and as Brock shares a cab and a tense scene of slowly ****ing with her head and scaring her before the symbikote comes out and Venom grabs her and jumps off before Spidey gets there. He just scares her to the point of near death and tells her to give Spidey a message to meet him at an old abandoned beach mill.

MJ tells Pete in horror trying to convince him to let the police handle it but Pete feels responsible for Venom and sees himself in the monster and has to take responsibility (something he hasn't done all film) for his messes and reconnects with MJ as he goes off to his "death." Big dramatic battle. Venom dies. Yeah I said it, just to close the door and a void Carnage.

Pete stands in front of Uncle Ben's grave at the end next to May's now and comments how he has so many friends buried her over the years (and enemies), he could find his place around her in the dark. And he laments his life but shows resilence and hope for the future because their lessons have made him into a good man and he will always have great power and great responsibility. He walks away but not alone this time but to MJ and then we cut as his monologue continues to his marriag eof MJ and finally....happiness.

As I said it is just really a more expanded (Gwen, Lizard, etc) version though.

As for cast I would probably make some changes but cast very similar to the real movies:

Spider-Man: Tobey Maguire

Mary Jane Watson: I dunno....this is a hard one. I don't care about hair color, dying always works but I am blanking on younger American actresses who I think have the chops to do it. Perhaps Reese Witherspoon as she was not famous back in 2001 and if they contracted her then....

Gwen Stacy: Only two filmns but she would be the primary love interest in them and I think Kirsten Dunst (who looks much better as a blonde by the way) would be just fine as her.

Green Goblin/Norman Osborn: Willem Dafoe

Doc Ock: Alfred Molina

Harry Osborn/The Green Goblin: James Franco

Dr. Conners: William H. Macy (he would be amazing and Lizard could be a CGI creation from acting like Davy Jones or Gollum or King Kong)

Sandman: Thomas Hayden Church still works fine for me.

Venom: I dunno....I think Topher Grace will be great for Sam Raimi's vision in SM3, but in all honesty I just don't think I'd cast him if I could choose. Nor would I go for the stupid cliche of getting a wrestler to play the part. Someone of average build who was over 6 feet could do it. I like the idea of Heath Ledger (even before he was the Joker), but I dunno.

Just my little what if. But as I said, though I would've done some things differently (mostly fewer cheese moments and more one liners, sassier MJ, etc.) I really am quite happy with what Raimi ihas done though.

[Herr Logan]

I also would like to say organic webbing....I think it works better for the movies, not because it was in the movies but selling that an 18 year-old made them with no money is....well I just think organic webbing would save time and logic for a film. Then again I am being biased as at the same time I would like the costume (though I am not a director or costume designer so my say would be nigh) to look cool. Raised webbing or not I don't want it to be done with a magic marker. I know he reality he would but it just would be so cheesy if for 4 out of 5 films (or in the real franchise, 2 out of 3) for him to be wearing something that looks like would be in the bargain bin of costumes at Target.

Do not ever make statements like these in any Safe Haven thread again. This argument has been made countless times in countless threads and is unequivocally in opposition to the concept of "faithfulness." You are not allowed to make the argument that Spider-Man has not possessed mechanical webshooters for the majority of his existence in various media, since that is a lie and an insult on those who know better. Therefore, mechanical webshooters must be deemed faithful, and you have written off that aspect of the mythos. That is not allowed in here, period. No discussion, no argument, just acknowledge and act accordingly.
It is a valid point to raise about the costume meshing with the web-shooters, but getting rid of the web-shooters is never the right solution if it is to be a faithful.

The only way I would even consider tolerating this (and that may never be the case anyway) is if you had devoted an even larger amount of text to truly criticizing something signficant in the Spider-Man movies (visual/audio gags don't cut it... not nearly), and I don't see that. Granted, I haven't the focus needed to carefully read your entire story layout, and I will do so as soon as I'm up to it.

Anyway, bottom line, you will minimize-- if not leave out completely-- all statements that describe long-standing elements of the source material as "cheesy," "unrealistic," and so forth. That's not a request. We have clearance to be here and be free of such offensive propaganda in this and all other Safe Haven threads.
Do not bother criticizing me or this thread simply because you don't adhere to its philosophy, as that is trolling and I haven't made any personal attacks on you yet. I apologize to everyone if this sounds unreasonable, but I've been given ample reason by several posters to be more defensive and less open to the whims of those who don't "get it." It's Zero Tolerance, kids. Love it or leave it. You say "faithful" is a subjective term? Sure is, but we're not debating it here. Read the rules again and pay close attention to the part that says "you either belong here or you don't." This is the "uncool kids" table. If that's not your kind of scene, go eat lunch with the "cool kids."

DACrowe, I honestly do appreciate the time you put into the rest of your post and will review it soon-- barring any other conflicts that come up between us in the meantime.

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

I suppose an interesting thread.
You can "suppose" less condescendingly than that. You can. I believe in you.

I myself enjoy Raimi's films immensely and think he has made an overall quite ogod adaptation to the screen, however they are not without their flaws as films (certain visual gags sound....distracting, for example like GG saying "Oh" before getting impaled or Aunt May catching herself on an Angel statue with her umbrella) and in story (how many ****ing times is MJ gonna' get kidnapped?) but overall I enjoy them.

As for faithfulness, well that is a very subjective subject now ain't it? ;)
As I said, we're not going to argue or discuss the meaning of "faithfulness." There are very, very few people I'd debate that with in here, and nobody should expect it.

I myself would have done it differently and probably more faithful to the overall comic book but I think some changes I would not have made benefitted Raimi's movies greatly, while others felt like a bit of a lazy decision on David Koepp's part (making MJ more homely and modest). But for discussion's sake my general outline for the franchise would've been a deeply more expanded version of what we got in many respects:

Spider-Man 1:
Pete is 18 in high school gets the power and the origin would've played a lot to how it did in the film (I love it being a hijacking instead of a burglary, makes more sense, but I admit I probably wouldn't have thought of that). He gets his powers on a field trip to Columbia from a radioactive spider. Yadda, yadda. However, there are two women he is attracted to. One being Gwen Stacy, the reluctant girlfriend of high school jock and bully Flash Thompson, and the girl next door that Aunt May sets Pete up with halfway through the origin, MJ (whose roll is far more over the top and senual and fun. She kinda' convinces Pete to embrace his more selfish sides helping lead to his confidence and anger of letting the thieve go).

[Inappropriate Content-- we've covered this, we need never speak of it again]

The villain would be Doc Ock whose main goal would be the same but it is his ambition and cruelty that makes him wish to do it. He is ultimately a monster who wants to be recognized. Molian is pitch perfect but he is far less likeable and at the end he is tricked into helping save the city when he goes after to save his work from being destroyed. Despite MJ and Peter getting along she is flirting with Pete's only real friend Harry too and at the end he begins his courtship of Gwen Stacy. He is starting to date her, while still being on again/off again with the flirtatous (thoug she should never seem like a ***** or a slut, just a fun-loving girl) MJ.

All the while Harry's father Norman is in the background abusing Harry and obsessed with his work. He would also have been Otto's employer and drove Otto to such desperate circumstnaces that led to his accident.

Sounds much more faithful with regard to Mary Jane's character and Doc Ock. Good work.

Spider-Man 2: This would be Peter finally making things work and be really half a love story between him and Gwen as he finally chooses Gwen over MJ. MJ becames flaky and mean to Peter for this and dates Harry to get to Peter. At the same time, we have Norman do his experiment and gets the power he needs (again very much like in the first movie) but goes insane.

The Goblin costume for the record would be prosthetics instead of robo-mask though.

At first I would like a mirror conversation but as the story progresses the two personalities would merge. And by the third act he is no longer split but one twisted mother****er. He does offer Spider-Man a choice to join him but when it is turned down he merely figures out who Spidey is and is hurt (as he shows admiration for Peter while abusing Harry mentally) and wants revenge. He does put Aunt May in the hospital but downright injures her.

At the end the GG reveals his identity while at a formal birthday party for Harry (one that starts going bad when MJ breaks up with Harry and gets his anguish and she also gets Peter's disrespect) he subtely reveals he knows who Spidey is. The two end up duking it out before Norman can reveal it to to everyone at the Osborn Mansion and Peter is dragged along in the famous aSM #39 shot. It ends with Peter escaping and Norman says he has followed the wooman Pete loves for sometime and it is now he is going to finish what he started.

Peter runs to Aunt May in the hospital thinking he means her but Goblin doesn't show. A phone call comes for Peter and it is the line in the first movie followed by Gwen screaming (at this point Pete is all but engaged to Gwen). Peter goes to the Brooklyn Bridge and aSM #121 plays out and I rather like the brutal climax used in SM1 but much darker after Gwen's death. At the end MJ comforts Pete despite his anger and outbursts ala #122 and she takes him to Gwen's grave after having the bigger funeral for Harry's father, Norman. MJ is there for Pete (no love yet though) but he still walks away alone in a more negative ending.
Still going strong with MJ's characterization and Peter's typical reactions to her often umseemly behavior. Green Goblin seems like one nasty sum'***** in this.

Questions about the Green Goblin:
Does the Goblin have a specific plan or plans for which he'd actually require or warrant taking Spider-Man on as an ally?
How does the Goblin figure out who Spider-Man really is?Additional question:
Does Captain George Stacy play any significant part in this movie?Good stuff. :up:

Spider-Man 3:
I'm going to save time and just say that this is the Spider-Man: No More storyline (and yes more like in the movie) as he and MJ get close but because of Gwen and Spidey he pushes her away. All the while his professor has turned into a monster. Pete doesn't realize it until as Parker he finds out from Martha and Billy Conners what is going on (even after sparring with the Lizard before quitting a few times). This way his origin is done in flashback though we see Doc Conners in the first act of the movie. And he will be the first sympathetic villain really. Octavious is an obsessed fanatic if you will and Osborn was an ******* before donning the costume. Conners is truly sad as he was once a healer until Vietnam took his arm before he could begin his career and he had become cynical of man and Lizard is his dark side and view of humanity formed.

He realizes that Conners (after attacking his own family and scarring Billy to get a blood sample) is trying to cure himself but will kill himself instead. In the first he had to save the city from Ock, in the second his friends from GG and in the third though he is having to save a villain from himself. Between this and the Aunt May subplot he can't pursue the relationship he has started with a deeper and now more developed MJ. She keeps pushing him though because after the first act there is love even with Gwen gone, between them.

Spidey inevitably goes to the sewers to face the Lizard's machines and savagry. Que what I think shoud be the equivalent of ASM #367. Spider-Man tries to reason with Lizard to save him and instead Lizard buries him under a trainstation. He has to lift it (a la ASM #33) and dislocates his arm doing it. He makes a web-sling for himself in his last ditch ever to save Liz from going into the machine....but he FAILS. Conners has ruined his family though and maybe should die at the end anyway (a stray from the comics) but showing the burden of pursuing your interests and having love can do. Seeing the Conners family ruined, destroys Pete. At the end Pete breaks up whatever was starting with MJ and this time she is the one left in tears.
You really do have a lot of comics knowledge. :up:

Nice set-up of the themes and plot surrounding the Lizard's part in the movie. Very nice.

Lizard questions:
How different is the Lizard persona from Connors' regular personality? Is he merely a more aggressive and unstable version of himself? Does the Lizard speak, and if so, does he address himself as a separate entity from Conners?
Does the Lizard persona have a particular goal for himself, or is he trying to turn himself normal as soon as he realizes what's happened to him?Additional questions:
What Aunt May subplot? You mentioned it offhand, but there's nothing else that addresses it.
Will Spider-Man suffer a stress-induced, psychosomatic power loss, or will he simply refrain from Spidey action when he "quits"? Spider-Man 4:

Harry Osborn goes mad and hires Sandman to kill Peter Parker. Sandman and Spidey do battle and so on. We also have Pete and MJ's relationship going sour as she moves on to get married. She ends up confronting him about their relationship but he won't make a move. Meanwhile, Sandman helps Harry unmask Peter and after knowing the truth he finds his father's lair the same way. Sandman seems like a careless thug in this one who escapes as we hurddle into the third act. Harry meanwhile goes insane and takes the formula. SM2's story with MJ finding out plays similar but much darker as it is brother vs. brother, MJ is engaged and Peter tries to talk her out of it but can't offer a good enough alternative. Harry then leaves an exploding Spider-Man in MJ's bed freaking her out and Peter finds Harry (after sparring with Harry and barely surviving at the beginning of the third act) helping Aunt May with her laundry. At the end Harry kidnaps MJ and will kill her to punish them for betraying him as friends. However in a fight in the burning Osborn Mansion (the past burns down) MJ is going to be crushed and Peter breaks his "momentous climax" which Harry has engineered to soothe the Norman spirit in his head (he acts more as if this is a movie than himself). Harry comes to his senses and sees that Peter can't hold it alone and his only friends will be crushed. Harry dies a hero saving MJ and Peter holding up a collapsing building for them to get out from under it and letting himself get buried in the rubble. The last few scenes should play similar to how they did in SM2, all though I'm not too keen about MJ leaving loverboy standing up at the alter, however JJ's line in that would be perfect.
Sounds good. I would your version of Green Goblin Jr. would have a real Goblin costume, not what we've seen is in store for our viewing displeasure come... whenever that damn movie is out.

Spider-Man 5:

Peter and MJ get engaged. Relationship problems abound. Pete gets symbiote. He is fighting Sandman still who got away from the last film. Sandman is revealed to hate his powers as they have given him cancer (again a stray) and he just wants the pain to end and he becomes a greier character in this movie. As symbiote Spidey he really can tear into Sandman but goes too far and the symbiote kills Sandman without Pete's approval. This is around the time Peter is a complete ******* to MJ and Spidey is cruel and the Bugle claims it was right all along. He gets rid of it and get Venom like his origin story but more stalking. He captures Peter Parker when his senses aren't going off and basically scares Parker ****less. Instead of standing his ground Peter runs. Venom catches him and says he would never rip Peter apart, he'll do that to MJ. He then beats a frantic Spidey to MJ and as Brock shares a cab and a tense scene of slowly ****ing with her head and scaring her before the symbikote comes out and Venom grabs her and jumps off before Spidey gets there. He just scares her to the point of near death and tells her to give Spidey a message to meet him at an old abandoned beach mill.

MJ tells Pete in horror trying to convince him to let the police handle it but Pete feels responsible for Venom and sees himself in the monster and has to take responsibility (something he hasn't done all film) for his messes and reconnects with MJ as he goes off to his "death." Big dramatic battle. Venom dies. Yeah I said it, just to close the door and a void Carnage.

Pete stands in front of Uncle Ben's grave at the end next to May's now and comments how he has so many friends buried her over the years (and enemies), he could find his place around her in the dark. And he laments his life but shows resilence and hope for the future because their lessons have made him into a good man and he will always have great power and great responsibility. He walks away but not alone this time but to MJ and then we cut as his monologue continues to his marriag eof MJ and finally....happiness.

As I said it is just really a more expanded (Gwen, Lizard, etc) version though.
I'm assuming that Venom's threatening to kill MJ was just a bluff and that he knew just how far to push her so she'd still be alive. He may be a ruthless son of a *****, but Brock hardly even kills innocents, and a young, law-abiding woman without even a gun, much less superpowers, certainly qualifies as innocent. One of the best features of Venom's personality is his twisted "moral high ground" and ultimate hypocrisy.

Questions:
How did Aunt May die?

As for cast I would probably make some changes but cast very similar to the real movies:

Spider-Man: Tobey Maguire

Mary Jane Watson: I dunno....this is a hard one. I don't care about hair color, dying always works but I am blanking on younger American actresses who I think have the chops to do it. Perhaps Reese Witherspoon as she was not famous back in 2001 and if they contracted her then....

Gwen Stacy: Only two filmns but she would be the primary love interest in them and I think Kirsten Dunst (who looks much better as a blonde by the way) would be just fine as her.

Green Goblin/Norman Osborn: Willem Dafoe

Doc Ock: Alfred Molina

Harry Osborn/The Green Goblin: James Franco

Dr. Conners: William H. Macy (he would be amazing and Lizard could be a CGI creation from acting like Davy Jones or Gollum or King Kong)

Sandman: Thomas Hayden Church still works fine for me.

Venom: I dunno....I think Topher Grace will be great for Sam Raimi's vision in SM3, but in all honesty I just don't think I'd cast him if I could choose. Nor would I go for the stupid cliche of getting a wrestler to play the part. Someone of average build who was over 6 feet could do it. I like the idea of Heath Ledger (even before he was the Joker), but I dunno.

Just my little what if. But as I said, though I would've done some things differently (mostly fewer cheese moments and more one liners, sassier MJ, etc.) I really am quite happy with what Raimi ihas done though.
I'd probably have chosen all the same cast members, except for the women (I haven't made up my mind about that) and Venom.
I wouldn't even consider casting Topher Grace as Eddie Brock, nor someone who was merely a wrestler. Eddie Brock is well over 6' tall and weighs over 300 lbs, so he has to be huge, no question, but there shouldn't be any real problem finding a competent actor who fits the physical profile. No more than there is finding any other actor for a role when the casting director isn't simply dialing up "who comes to mind."

William H. Macy sounds like a really good choice for Dr. Connors.

If Nicolas Brendan (Xander from 'Buffy') could still pull off the look of a teenager, he'd be my #1 choice, no question. He's absolutely perfect physically (when he keeps in shape) and in terms of his acting resume. But yeah, no chance of that happening. He could barely pass for a teen on 'Buffy,' much less now.



Thanks for posting, DACrowe. I enjoyed your treatments very much. On the condition that you heed what I said before, welcome to the Haven. :up:

:wolverine

[DACrowe]

Thanks. I do think for a film the [banned material] works but if you don't want it mentioned fine.

Oh and I was just pouring my thoughts out and didn't clear some things up (obviously).

Well Green Goblin's original plan is to kill everyone one-by-one who has harmed Osborn's name and he rpetty much succeeds (ticking Spider-Man off) but when Spidey stops him from assassinating JJJ and everyone in the Bugle for writing bad things about Oscorp he becomes intrigued. And when Spidey refuses to join him he decides he should destroy him for not acceptinig his wonderful gift. That is when he throws a drug bomb at Peter at the scene where Spidey declines so when Gobby follows Peter is very tired and doesn't realize his spider-sense isn't working and unmasks himself right in front of GG.

Lizard is kind of a reverse GG in some respects. He starts out as a seperate entity whose a savage monster who just wants to kill humans (though I don't want him creating Lizard men) and can speak. He has the hiss and the lisp, but he can speak, but not good english. He should speak in half-sentences. But after Peter confronts him when he is stealing equipment (for some unbeknownst purpose....plot hole? perhaps) at ESu about him having a family he shows conflict.

Then when he attacks the Conners house at the build up to the climax and takes Billy's blood he should seem more in control and speaking more coherently. And Peter figures out as he goes into the sewers that Conners has come back into play and the two are battling for the body. He tries to reason with Conners but gets a Lizard tail in his face instead.

And no, I wouldn't have him lose his powers. I liked it in SM2 and can site something similar happening in Annual Spider-Man #1, but with the different circumstances of his relationship with MJ in this oen and all, I think it would be easier to just avoid it.

The subplot I forgot to specify would be the one from SM2. I really like Peter telling Aunt May that he was responsible for Ben's death. I can't believe no writer touched that into the comics until JMS unvieled him to her recently. It would also tie into what I am going to do with her in SM5 if she gives him a cheery rising speech about heroes after he reveals what he knows.

And no Harry would not be wearing only military and snowboarding gear. He would be the Green Goblin II, though I would expect him only to wear a mask really in their first fight (as I have them fight twice) as in the second it would be more personal that it is both Pete and Harry with no masks on.

And as I forgot to mention when Peter is in his darkest and between that and not being there for MJ at a near assassination at a publicity show for a play she is doing off-Broadway (I hate soap operas) MJ and Pete temporarily broke up. Pete is living with Aunt May again and she reveals how disappointed she is in him losing his responsibility like Ben. She was so proud recently of seeing him soar through the skies she wanted to be there with him. Peter realizes she knwos and ASM #400 plays out and he takes her swinging. She is later hospitialized and dies and as Peter weeps MJ comes in and they just look at each other and she lets him cling to her and without words they are back together.

That is why after he ditches the costume for killing Sandman he hears Aunt May's words and rids himself of it. Brock would work for the Bugle to save time and his stories would be ruined by a dark Spider-Man and Peter Parker helps. He goes to church to kill himself and pray for forgivness and for God to essientially smyte Spider-Man and Peter Parker who ganged up on him when the symbiote comes to him.

And I tried to make it clear, no he was just ****ing with Pete. He just scares MJ in the cab and when he grabs her but WILL NOT actually do a single bit of physical harm. Just to get under her's and Pete's skin to weaken him. He should say I suppose before they fight that he would never hurt the innocent pretty redhead, all "THEY" want is Spider-Man's....head. And then the fight would commence.

Hope that clears it up then.

[DACrowe]

Oh and I really like Reese Withersppon as MJ now that I think aobut it. See Walk the Line and imagine red hair and get rid of the accent. Now that is not EXACTLY how I would have her play it but she has got that spunk though.

[Herr Logan]

Thanks. I do think for a film the [banned material] works but if you don't want it mentioned fine.

Oh and I was just pouring my thoughts out and didn't clear some things up (obviously).

Well Green Goblin's original plan is to kill everyone one-by-one who has harmed Osborn's name and he rpetty much succeeds (ticking Spider-Man off) but when Spidey stops him from assassinating JJJ and everyone in the Bugle for writing bad things about Oscorp he becomes intrigued. And when Spidey refuses to join him he decides he should destroy him for not acceptinig his wonderful gift. That is when he throws a drug bomb at Peter at the scene where Spidey declines so when Gobby follows Peter is very tired and doesn't realize his spider-sense isn't working and unmasks himself right in front of GG.

Lizard is kind of a reverse GG in some respects. He starts out as a seperate entity whose a savage monster who just wants to kill humans (though I don't want him creating Lizard men) and can speak. He has the hiss and the lisp, but he can speak, but not good english. He should speak in half-sentences. But after Peter confronts him when he is stealing equipment (for some unbeknownst purpose....plot hole? perhaps) at ESu about him having a family he shows conflict.

Then when he attacks the Conners house at the build up to the climax and takes Billy's blood he should seem more in control and speaking more coherently. And Peter figures out as he goes into the sewers that Conners has come back into play and the two are battling for the body. He tries to reason with Conners but gets a Lizard tail in his face instead.

And no, I wouldn't have him lose his powers. I liked it in SM2 and can site something similar happening in Annual Spider-Man #1, but with the different circumstances of his relationship with MJ in this oen and all, I think it would be easier to just avoid it.

The subplot I forgot to specify would be the one from SM2. I really like Peter telling Aunt May that he was responsible for Ben's death. I can't believe no writer touched that into the comics until JMS unvieled him to her recently. It would also tie into what I am going to do with her in SM5 if she gives him a cheery rising speech about heroes after he reveals what he knows.

And no Harry would not be wearing only military and snowboarding gear. He would be the Green Goblin II, though I would expect him only to wear a mask really in their first fight (as I have them fight twice) as in the second it would be more personal that it is both Pete and Harry with no masks on.

And as I forgot to mention when Peter is in his darkest and between that and not being there for MJ at a near assassination at a publicity show for a play she is doing off-Broadway (I hate soap operas) MJ and Pete temporarily broke up. Pete is living with Aunt May again and she reveals how disappointed she is in him losing his responsibility like Ben. She was so proud recently of seeing him soar through the skies she wanted to be there with him. Peter realizes she knwos and ASM #400 plays out and he takes her swinging. She is later hospitialized and dies and as Peter weeps MJ comes in and they just look at each other and she lets him cling to her and without words they are back together.

That is why after he ditches the costume for killing Sandman he hears Aunt May's words and rids himself of it. Brock would work for the Bugle to save time and his stories would be ruined by a dark Spider-Man and Peter Parker helps. He goes to church to kill himself and pray for forgivness and for God to essientially smyte Spider-Man and Peter Parker who ganged up on him when the symbiote comes to him.

And I tried to make it clear, no he was just ****ing with Pete. He just scares MJ in the cab and when he grabs her but WILL NOT actually do a single bit of physical harm. Just to get under her's and Pete's skin to weaken him. He should say I suppose before they fight that he would never hurt the innocent pretty redhead, all "THEY" want is Spider-Man's....head. And then the fight would commence.

Hope that clears it up then.

God damnit... I wrote a somewhat more lengthy response to this (positive feedback) and I accidentally deleted the window before my slow-ass computer fully sent the post. Feckin' machine...

Okay, the bottom line is, good stuff.

Two questions:

What's in it for Spider-Man if he helps the Goblin kill his enemies? Is he meant to be paid?
Does Peter earn back some good will with Aunt May before she died, or does he merely try and fail?
:wolverine

[James"007"Bond]

It would definitely have to be someone who respects the comics,and has the imagination and ambition(though not too much) to pull it off.

Any director who is actually talented in his/her field could pull off making a fantatastic spidey movie, granted, they actually have the ambition to respect and appreciate the source material and thats something Raimi lacks, the ambition to appreciate the source material in its entirety.
I know this topic I'm about to mention has been done to death, revived and been killed again but its a glaring example that showcases Raimi's unwillingness to be ambitious enough to bring spider-man alive, properly in all his glory.
The issue of web shooters. The excuse of Peter not having the funding and being so young to create such devices has my throat in a death-inducing choak hold. Had Raimi done his job properly and involved writers who were fundamentally knowledgable in spider-man could have written and characterised Parker's character realisticly and effectively, showcasing Peter's cerebral scientific mind and resourcefulness but no. What we got was a brief encounter of Peter's facination with spiders and large telescopes, something he could have easily looked up and learnt in the space of 15minutes on wikipedia.:rolleyes:

The spider-man movies are flawed and focus more on taking short cuts to please the masses so that they in turn can rob them of their hard cash, while fans who actually know what spider-man is about are left with pathetic attempts of being appeased.
What we need is a focused director who understands the sort of movie spider-man is and should be.

[James"007"Bond]

That man know his comics. Well, maybe he could help write and then we'd get Peter Jackson to direct.

If ever there was a movie based on secret wars, Jackson would definately be someone I'd consider to bring it to life but there are far more important projects that need to be dealt with to even consider a SW mvie right now. Saying that, I think the antman movie and magneto iare also unecessary right about now. Antman before captain America? Hmm, something's not right.

[Herr Logan]

Any director who is actually talented in his/her field could pull off making a fantatastic spidey movie, granted, they actually have the ambition to respect and appreciate the source material and thats something Raimi lacks, the ambition to appreciate the source material in its entirety.
I know this topic I'm about to mention has been done to death, revived and been killed again but its a glaring example that showcases Raimi's unwillingness to be ambitious enough to bring spider-man alive, properly in all his glory.
The issue of web shooters. The excuse of Peter not having the funding and being so young to create such devices has my throat in a death-inducing choak hold. Had Raimi done his job properly and involved writers who were fundamentally knowledgable in spider-man could have written and characterised Parker's character realisticly and effectively, showcasing Peter's cerebral scientific mind and resourcefulness but no. What we got was a brief encounter of Peter's facination with spiders and large telescopes, something he could have easily looked up and learnt in the space of 15minutes on wikipedia.:rolleyes:

The spider-man movies are flawed and focus more on taking short cuts to please the masses so that they in turn can rob them of their hard cash, while fans who actually know what spider-man is about are left with pathetic attempts of being appeased.
What we need is a focused director who understands the sort of movie spider-man is and should be.
Well... um... I agree. I agree wholeheartedly and completely, in fact. What I do not want is an ongoing debate about this going on in here, so I'd appreciate if we could leave this issue aside for a while. I just feel there are people who are tempted to respond with counter-arguments, and that's where the banishing begins, and I don't want to have to resort to that. In any case, Welcome to the Haven, Jide.

Anyone who even thinks of arguing this above post will be absolutely required to post their own criticism of any or all of Sam Raimi's Spider-Man movies, of equal size and equal vitriolic tone. That's in line with the rules, so there's no argument to be had about that.


You've reminded me, Jide, that I would definitely plan on putting a solid emphasis on Peter Parker's aptitude and ambitions with regard to bio-chemistry. I would have Norman Osborn offer him a lab assistant job, just like in the comics, and have him decline for the same reasons (he can't be relied upon and can't hold a job with set hours). Sam Raimi's poor imitation of Spider-Man never knew what he wanted. He basically said as much. The real Spider-Man pretty much always knew what he wanted back in the day, he just could never have it. That's the difference between an intelligent, well-written character who is frustrated and a badly-written character who is angst personified and whose only trait is "frustrated." Yeah, it's frustrating to be a useless little punk who never speaks up for himself with any conviction and can't even answer the simplest questions about himself. But that's not interesting, and it's certainly not worthy of intelligent viewers who paid good money to see a character well-known for his strong personality, razor-sharp wit and endless charm. Too bad we got barely any of that in those movies, but that's where reality lets us down and we have to take matters into our own hands, even if it's only in our imaginations and internet forums. None of what we write here will probably end up on a movie screen, but that's still a dream worth having.

I've actually gotten to the point where I imagine myself giving interviews about the upcoming films I'm producing and so forth, doling out clues and such, without being a smug or smarmy little roach like Avi Arad. Yep, that's how sad my life is, and that's how sad the state of superhero movies are. I'm gonna go have myself a quick cry for now, for the state of comics, and other, more pressing concerns.

Make Mine the REAL Marvel, dammit!

:wolverine

[James"007"Bond]

Rough outline for Spider-man movie:

Origin story.
Pete goes to high school with Harry,Flash,and Liz.
Gets bitten by spider
Learns of his powers,lets it get to his head
Exploits his abilities for money.
Ben dies,he learns responsibility lesson.
Becomes a hero
Meets Gwen Stacy in college.
Norman makes a brief cameo
Captain Stacy is introduced
Meets Doc Ock.
Doc Ock has his accident.Begins to set some plan into motion which endangers the lives of many.
Parallel established between Doc Ock letting his hubris get to him,and Pete learning responsibility.
Gwen tries to get close to Peter.Pete's still reluctant because of his secret.
Doc Ock fights Spidey.Captain Stacy dies.
Spidey's villainized.
Pete wants to reveal his feelings to Gwen but she voices her hatred of Spidey.
Spidey defeats Doc Ock and saves a bunch of people.
Movie ends on a high note somehow,with Spidey saving somebody or something.

Bada-Bing Bada-Boom.:cool:

I look at this and feel a great sense of overwhelming dismay. To anyone who understands the core of spider-man and his origins, its easy to see just how excellent spider-man 1 could have been whilst simultaneously impresing and satisfying fans and the general audience collectively.

I like that it doesn't waste time and doesn't add clutter scenes to carry things foward and most importantly allows the film to have direction taking the story foward that closely mirrors the major events that took place in the comics.
In fact its so blatantly easy to list acts to conclude a sequal.

Oh and thanks, Logan for the welcome, great thread you got here.:up: :spidey:

[Herr Logan]

Hey, I was just skimming through the first 5 pages or so and I think you have a lot of valid points and am not trying to argue or anything, but I just wanted to know herr, you called the Spider-Man costumes from the first two movies disgraceful to the comic books and I was curious if you would elaborate. I know you support the magic marker version but is there any other reason to despise those costumes so?
I really said that? About the costumes? That's weird. I don't remember, and I'm too lazy to go back and look, but I'll take your word for it.

I know I still believe the Green Goblin costume was disgraceful, simply because it's just as silly looking as a picture-perfect copy of the comics version, but it's not faithful enough. I believe a scary, "tough" looking version of the original costume could be made, and somewhere out there there's a concept art piece of the mask/helmet that proves it. Dr. Octopus' costume was arguably excellent but also "so-so," depending on whether you're just talking about the harness or if you count the fact that he should have been wearing decent clothes over it (yes, you can cut out the back of a white Armani suit and still look good).

Well, the first Movie!Spidey costume had the wrong color webbing. It's not an improvement to make it silver, it's just wrong. Wasn't a huge deal to me, personally, as I thought the costume still looked pretty damn good. The costume for 'Spider-Man 2' was excellent. Yes, I do support what you refer to as the "magic marker" model, because yes, even I do expect a reasonable amount of believability when it comes to the mundane aspects of these movies. What I mean is, you can give people any powers you want, and a genius kid can cobble together a web-shooter from scrap metal if he has to, but don't tell me that a kid with a poor-to-average ability to sew and no money can make that fancy, rubberized costume by his God damn self. The web-shooters are a hell of a lot more believable than that. Now, as the movies go on, maybe even in just the second, Spider-Man can find a way to fancy up his costume with rubber webbing, but his first real Spider-Man costume will merely have black lines. It would be said that he uses marker, but it would be professionally and impeccably done in real life. I can suspend my belief that Parker could draw the lines perfectly, and I wouldn't entertain arguments otherwise. The costume should look perfect, but it doesn't need to look over-the-top expensive to make. Simplicity is best in general, although I've got a head for details, so I'm certainly always thinking about improvements and add-ons to various things, if it's appropriate.

You mentioned you wanted the sleek look of the arms for a Movie!Spider-Man costume. I'd love that to, but I'm absolutely unwilling to leave out the real web-shooters for any reason, so either we "cheat" like they do in the comics and just pretend they're there, or we paint the devices red, or we cover it up with red cloth outside of the costume so it blends in better. He'll also have a red utility belt with extra web cartridges, his miniature camera, and a compact, ultra-bright, long-range, red LED flashlight to use as he used in the comics (to alert police to tied up criminals or to crimes in progress that he can't deal with, or to manipulate the movement of wary criminals or Flash Thompson looking for his hero).

The hero's costume should almost always look like it stepped right out of the comics page. I can make exceptions for costumes like Wolverine's original uniform, but my only change to that would be (as seen in the X-Men: Safe Haven (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232429) thread) to change the yellow to orange and blue to black, and no change at all to the brown and tan except to make the tan darker). In general, I think darker colors work better of film, but that doesn't mean you change the colors completely in most cases, it means you simply darken the tone of the colors. That's the case with the Batman costume's gray bodysuit (as seen in the Batman: Safe Haven (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232432) thread). As our friend Bathead said, "Any talented filmmaker worth his salt would be able to stick close to the source material and still make an excellent film." That includes costumes. All it takes is a tiny bit of creativity, imagination and respect for the source material.

If Spider-Man upgrades his costume in my movies and then tears it, he'll go back to the old one, temporarily maybe, since he'll keep at least one "magic marker" version as a back-up.


Wait....
...brain... burning.... world... spinning.... idea forming.... AAARRRGGHHH!

Okay, alternatively, here's how he could wear the 'Spider-Man 2' costume right from the beginning:

He shows up to the wrestling ring in a cheap, last-minute costume like in 'Spider-Man,' but is NOT there to get money to impress Mary Jane (they haven't even met, and even if they had, he's doing this for Uncle Ben and Aunt May and himself, like in the comics) does NOT get his ass kicked for even one second in the ring, does NOT use web-shooters even once (for lack of having finished building them yet), does NOT take his mask off in front of strangers for any reason even once throughout the entire film series, does NOT get cheated by the fight promoter/manager or encounter Uncle Ben's killer backstage at the fight arena, but DOES meet an agent who wants to manage his new career as a super-stunt man. As a show of good faith and massive interest in this young man, this agent has several expensive (but we downplay the actual price) custom Spider-Man costumes made for the future career of the Amazing Spider-Man (the film title). That means he has the fancy suit that looks so good but doesn't make me feel dirty by saying "I made it." No Hal Sparks in the elevator scene, dammit, when Spider-Man talks to a citizen, he's on a wall, ceiling or webline and he has a snappy comeback to all questions. I don't even have to mention that the real Spider-Man wisecracks non-stop, and therefore would in my movies. I also don't have to say that there's no argument against that. Anyway, bottom line, I figured out a way to still have the 'Spider-Man 2' costume without bull*****ting the audience about Parker's skills and resources. See? Just a little imagination and respect is all it takes. Much more worthy than the cut corners and bull***** excuses the studios keep getting away with to do mediocre or terrible jobs.

Rant time over... for now. Thanks for posting, DACrowe, and for bringing up a point that led to an idea I don't think I mentioned before. By the way, I'm going to repost this in the Spider-Man Safe Haven thread, since that's where we discuss Spider-Man now that the Safe Havens have "gone national." We can continue discussing this there. Again, thanks. :up:

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Oh and thanks, Logan for the welcome, great thread you got here.:up: :spidey:
Thanks, Jide. :up:

Feel free to check out the other Safe Haven threads, the list of which can be found in this post (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189562). Make sure you've read the rules before posting (they're the same in every thread, except for the 'Ultimate Marvel' stipulation in the Marvel ones). Don't worry, I say that to everybody out of necessity. :up:

:wolverine

[kame-sennin]

As a show of good faith and massive interest in this young man, this agent has several expensive (but we downplay the actual price) custom Spider-Man costumes made for the future career of the Amazing Spider-Man (the film title). That means he has the fancy suit that looks so good but doesn't make me feel dirty by saying "I made it."
:wolverine

Hate to bring this up, but this explanation was also used in Ultimate Spider-man. Now, whether you like the ultimate line or despise it, I think it's still a pretty good explanation.

I've actually gotten to the point where I imagine myself giving interviews about the upcoming films I'm producing and so forth, doling out clues and such, without being a smug or smarmy little roach like Avi Arad.

Lol, I've done that before.

[Herr Logan]

Hate to bring this up, but this explanation was also used in Ultimate Spider-man. Now, whether you like the ultimate line or despise it, I think it's still a pretty good explanation.

Dammit. I honestly, seriously did not remember that. It just seemed a logical possibility. It's also possible that I subconsciously remembered it. Feh, I don't know.

One big difference here is that I would only consider using that idea if the costume had rubber webbing or any other highly expensive and complex ornamental features. If he wears a smooth suit with drawn on (in the story, not necessarily behind the scenes) web patterns, then he'll make the entire thing himself, including using cut-out pieces of one-way mirror screen. Hell, he can get most of this stuff from his high school in the costume bins in the drama department.


Lol, I've done that before.

Then the weeping in shame I do is for us both. :(

;)

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

Copied from the Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More (Temporary Shelter) (http://comingsoon.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2123744#post2123744)

This one's for Ock:


Doc, I'm assuming you've read my proposals for 'The Amazing Spider-Man 2' and have seen that I'm considering having Adrian Toomes (aka the Vulture, who appeared and fought in all his glory in the first movie) sprung from the Vault by the Green Goblin. If this happens, it makes for an easier way to explain how Dr. Octopus escaped, as he could either make a break for it right then and there when the security systems were assaulted, or he could do something more complicated, messing with the mechanical restraints that bind his tentacles in some way the guards and technicians won't easily detect when the system is back in top shape and they check. Otherwise, Ock can also do it on his own somehow. I know you're in favor of Ock doing everything himself, but I wonder if you think it's a better idea to tie his situation in with that of the other villains, making a beautiful cause and effect chain of events that is actually running through each of the movies. I've found ways to connect most of the villains in the entire series (Scorpion wears a harness that's based on Dr. Octopus', for example, for his cybernetic tail) to each other in ways that don't cheapen anything. Octavius won't be working for anyone but himself once he becomes bonded to his tentacles.


Should Ock use his technical wits throughout and take advantage of a manlfunction, or should he trick a Guardsman (the guards with powered armor, designed by Tony Stark, that work at the Vault) into getting too close, use his own human reflexes to force him to break one of his restraints with his power blaster, and hold him hostage, forcing the rest to let him go? The former is more mysterious, the latter is more risky and dramatic.

Either way, we've agreed he'll be sending e-mails to high-end mercenaries under the address Master_Planner in the beginning of 'Amazing Spider-Man 3' and making phone calls scrambled by a voice modifier. To actually keep some pretense of mystery, his breakout should either happen in ASM2 or in a flashback after you find out in ASM3. What do you think, on both the issue of how he breaks out and when the breakout is shown?
Copied from the Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More (Temporary Shelter) (http://comingsoon.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2123744#post2123744)

Oh right. My bad.



It shows better intelligence for Octavius if he escapes himself, rather than by lucky chance.

So the hostage taking sounds good. Although whenever he did escape from prison in the comics he never needed to take hostages. He just smashed his way right out of there.



Have it revealed in flashback in part 3.

Therefore it is more of a surprise when he is revealed as the Master Planner. I means he's going to boast to Spider-Man about how he did it anyway. Better to show it then in flashback.

Damn right! :angry:



It would still be him doing most of the work even if he caught a lucky break, but yeah, it's fine for him to start from scratch.



That's because they often put him in a regular prison in the early days. No way that works for me in my movies.

Remember I'd have his tentacles locked into very strong magnetic restraints in the ceiling. I want there to be some kind of negating effect for his tentacles, maybe. He can try to move them, but the force running through them from the machinery of the cell makes them go limp. Through this, they can also electrically shock Otto if they need to.
I'd have him "flex" his tentacles constantly (not just the claws), and while the guards were concerned at first, he insisted it was, if not involuntary, a nevous habit. Some people flex their extremities constantly out of habit. I know I personally do that with my feet when they're in boots, etc. It's kind of like that. Anyway, him doing this constantly has built up a kind of tolerance for the negating effect, although he lets the negation field do its job. It means that if he strained himself, he could keep it up for several seconds.

I'd have him befriend one of the Guardsmen that regularly guard his cell and bring him food. I'd have him pull a Hannibal Lecter on him, basically. The Guardsmen are completely encased in Iron Man type armor (not as advanced and strong, but it's still a strength-enhancing exoskeleton and very tough) and carry advanced weapons that can range from stunning prisoners to killing them if absolutely necessary. They are forboding, scary looking people, and you'd never think to actually become too familiar with them, right? Octavius fears no one, and is smart enough to get past that shell and make a connection to the person underneath. He is a model prisoner, and more. He is courteous, amiable, considerate, and ever so gradually shows an interest in the Guardsman's life. We'll call him Officer Mark (get it?) for now. He becomes relatively familiar with Officer Mark's character, asking after his family, etc. He even reccommends books. He even makes jokes once in a while about his convict status. What a nice, personable, normal man, that Otto Octavius. Mark starts getting too comfortable around Octavius. One day, he gets so comfortable, he actually takes his gun (which they usually lock into secure, code-locked panels in the walls before entering a cell) into the cell when collecting two books that Otto read that day. He takes him books, you see, because Otto had been such a good prisoner. He even has a poster with the Periodic Element Chart on his wall. Oh yeah, that was a good idea, right? Anyway, Mark walks in with his gun, thinking nothing of it. Sure, Otto is a big guy, but he's a Guardsman, and it'll only take a second. What's there to worry about?
All of a sudden, Otto flexes one of his upper tentacles, rippling it in and bowing it forward so the curve knocks poor Officer Mark in his armored face plate, knocking him back. Otto has the power rifle in his hands and switches it to full power, pointing it up at the devices on the ceiling that hold his tentacles and blasting several times unil one is free. He uses the other tentacle to gather up Officer Mark, wrapping around him to keep him powerless, and holds the gun at his head, knowing that another Guardsman is on his way right then. When he gets to the cell, he aims at Otto with his blaster (which can be held with one hand if you're a Guardsman) and has his other hand on the control panel for the cell. He's thinking of shocking Otto through his tentacles. Otto knows this, and is ready. He says that if he is shocked, it will force his hand to contract, pulling the trigger and blowing Mark's head off. If the other Guardsman doesn't release the other three tentacles right now, Ock will slowly crush Mark in his own armor, breaking each bone in his body, one by one. It's essentially torture. Horrified by Ock's cruelty and out of compassion for his teammate, the Guardsmen does as he's told and gets slapped around real hard for it. Ock let's Mark live. He doesn't actually kill anyone, but he uses two of the Guardsmen as both shields and cudgels to break out. Dr. Octopus is free, and he feels no remorse for what he did to get out.


The earlier part of that is hard to get across in one scene, but there are ways. It could be at Officer Mark's debriefing, or we see little snippets, distributing the flashback across the latter half of the movie. I think it's really important to show the seductive power of Dr. Octopus and the lengths to which he'll go to get what he wants. He may be impatient on the outside (i.e., out of prison) a lot of the time, especially in terms of dealing with people, but he was able to get control of himself and exercised perfect discipline while in prison. He ranted and raved a bit at first and then calmed down gradually, making the guards on staff believe it was a temporary madness and him dealing with the accident and not being a respectable scientist afterward. Doesn't mean they'll let him out, but it means they let their guard down just a bit, and that was all he needed.

I figured this take on Ock is right up your alley.




Good idea. I said earlier how I thought it should be done.

Thanks for the feedback, Ock.

[Joker]

I really like the escape plan idea. It reminds me of how he manipulated the photographer Jeffrey Haight in 'Negative Exposure'. Ock is alot like Hannibal Lecter in that respect. He's a charmer and a manipulator. And that would be a great way to show it.

Regarding a time frame. It would have to be at least 6-8 months after Ock escaped. Because he has to set up his base, recruit his mercenaries etc.

[Herr Logan]

I really like the escape plan idea. It reminds me of how he manipulated the photographer Jeffrey Haight in 'Negative Exposure'. Ock is alot like Hannibal Lecter in that respect. He's a charmer and a manipulator. And that would be a great way to show it.

Exactly. I was indeed thinking of 'Negative Exposure' when I came up with this. Also his skill at this sort of thing in general.

It's one thing to con a sweet old woman who believes the best of people (even though she constantly worries about everything else... weird how that works), but this is supposed to be a supposedly skilled and trained man who joined the most elite corrections officer unit in history. Ock still gets it done, though.

Regarding a time frame. It would have to be at least 6-8 months after Ock escaped. Because he has to set up his base, recruit his mercenaries etc.

Yeah, I was planning on having him break out somewhere during the timeframe of the second movie, basically. I sort of wanted the movies to each represent a year in Peter Parker's life. I guess it's sort of like the Harry Potter books in that way.

You know, it's probably a long-shot to have the Green Goblin's breakout of the Vulture (if I still use that, and I probably will) affect Octavius. Even though Toomes is clearly dangerous and is very strong for a man of his years (much stronger in the flight suit, though), he still probably doesn't warrant the Vault. I guess I should have him in a maximum security or super-max at most. The Vault is another level altogether, imprisoning the likes of Dr. Octopus, Unus the Untouchable, the Toad, the Ani-Men, etc. Toomes may get a residual strength boost from the flight suit, but the law doesn't necessarily have to know that.

What do you think, should there be a movie with the Sinister Six?

It would be perfect, marketing-wise, to have the Sinister Six in the 6th movie, right? In order to do that, I'd need to get Captain Stacy's death, Gwen's death, the Scorpion, the Chameleon and Kraven the Hunter out of the way beforehand.


My original concept was this (not complete):

Amazing Spider-Man
High school, senior year
Origin
Intro to Daily Bugle
Betty Brant love interest
Vulture and Dr. Octopus as villlains

Amazing Spider-Man 2
College, freshman year
Intro to Gwen, Cap. Stacy, Harry, Norman Osborn, and Mary Jane
Green Goblin as main villain, Enforcers as backup
GG finds out Spider-Man's secret and then loses memory
Peter and Gwen start dating

Amazing Spider-Man 3
College, sophomore year
Master Planner story arc, with Aunt May sick
Dr. Octopus kills Cap. Stacy by accident (but loses no sleep over it)

Amazing Spider-Man 4
College, junior year
Green Goblin recovers memory, kills Gwen

Amazing Spider-Man 5
College, senior year
Chameleon and Kraven the Hunter as villains
Peter is dating Mary Jane


Amazing Spider-Man 6
Grad school
Jameson pays scientists to create the Scorpion and Spider Slayers

Amazing Spider-Man 7
Grad school
Peter proposes to Mary Jane
Symbiote and Eddie Brock-- Venom
Peter and MJ get married. 'Nuff said.


I don't know if I could have it line up with the sixth movie, but I'd like it to.

One thing I really don't want is to have the Green Goblin kill Gwen Stacy in the same movie where he debuts as a villian. That's too much like Raimi's mediocre attempt at a Spider-Man story. I want him to lose his memory and have that suspense hanging over Peter for at least one movie. The other thing I'd really hate to do is kill Captain Stacy off before getting to know him. I also don't want to end the second movie with both Peter being terrified that Norman Osborn will regain his memory AND have Captain Stacy die and Gwen devastated.

I want Kraven and the Chamelon and the Scorpion to have their time to shine before the Sinister Six get together if they're going to be members (which would make it Dr. Octopus, Kraven, Chameleon or Mysterio, Scorpion, Electro and the Sandman). I don't think it's plausible to have the main story with the Chameleon and Kraven in the same movie as the Green Goblin kills Gwen or the Master Planner story, and I also don't know if the latter two stories should be told in the same movie.

Thoughts on keeping it spread at a good pace, but still getting the Six into Movie Six?

:wolverine

[Joker]

Exactly. I was indeed thinking of 'Negative Exposure' when I came up with this. Also his skill at this sort of thing in general.
It's one thing to con a sweet old woman who believes the best of people (even though she constantly worries about everything else... weird how that works), but this is supposed to be a supposedly skilled and trained man who joined the most elite corrections officer unit in history. Ock still gets it done, though.

Indeed. How many super villains has he manipulated and betrayed over the course of his career too. A prison guard would be easy for him.

You know, it's probably a long-shot to have the Green Goblin's breakout of the Vulture (if I still use that, and I probably will) affect Octavius. Even though Toomes is clearly dangerous and is very strong for a man of his years (much stronger in the flight suit, though), he still probably doesn't warrant the Vault. I guess I should have him in a maximum security or super-max at most. The Vault is another level altogether, imprisoning the likes of Dr. Octopus, Unus the Untouchable, the Toad, the Ani-Men, etc. Toomes may get a residual strength boost from the flight suit, but the law doesn't necessarily have to know that.

Yeah, I don't think the Vulture's ever served time in the Vault. I've seen him in Rykers, but never in the Vault. It's not like he can mentally control his Vulture suit or anything. He doesn't warrant Vault security.

Heck they shoved him in an old folks home once where he made friends with May's fiancee Nathan Lubensky.

What do you think, should there be a movie with the Sinister Six?

It would be perfect, marketing-wise, to have the Sinister Six in the 6th movie, right? In order to do that, I'd need to get Captain Stacy's death, Gwen's death, the Scorpion, the Chameleon and Kraven the Hunter out of the way beforehand.

I would LOVE to see the Six on screen. And it would be even sweeter if Octavius betrayed them after using them. Just to show that part of his personality again. That he'll use and betray anyone.


My original concept was this (not complete):

Amazing Spider-Man
High school, senior year
Origin
Intro to Daily Bugle
Betty Brant love interest
Vulture and Dr. Octopus as villlains

Amazing Spider-Man 2
College, freshman year
Intro to Gwen, Cap. Stacy, Harry, Norman Osborn, and Mary Jane
Green Goblin as main villain, Enforcers as backup
GG finds out Spider-Man's secret and then loses memory
Peter and Gwen start dating

Amazing Spider-Man 3
College, sophomore year
Master Planner story arc, with Aunt May sick
Dr. Octopus kills Cap. Stacy by accident (but loses no sleep over it)

Amazing Spider-Man 4
College, junior year
Green Goblin recovers memory, kills Gwen

Amazing Spider-Man 5
College, senior year
Chameleon and Kraven the Hunter as villains
Peter is dating Mary Jane


Amazing Spider-Man 6
Grad school
Jameson pays scientists to create the Scorpion and Spider Slayers

Amazing Spider-Man 7
Grad school
Peter proposes to Mary Jane
Symbiote and Eddie Brock-- Venom
Peter and MJ get married. 'Nuff said.

Movie 4 looks a bit iffy. The Goblin killing Gwen is fine, but I'd have another villain in there for variety. After already seeing the Goblin in movie 2, it would be a bit of a let down if he was the only villain in movie 4. We need to see some other new villain in there. Even as just a side/cameo villain.

As for movie 5, Kraven and Chameleon wouldn't offer much in the way of spectacular fight scenes. You gotta remember the public wants to see some spectacular fights.

Chameleon is useless against Spidey physically. As for Kraven, well Spidey fighting tigers and dodging spears is not exactly eye popping stuff for a superhero movie if you know what I mean.

The rest of your movies look fine. You've tied all the important events in there.

One thing I really don't want is to have the Green Goblin kill Gwen Stacy in the same movie where he debuts as a villian. That's too much like Raimi's mediocre attempt at a Spider-Man story. I want him to lose his memory and have that suspense hanging over Peter for at least one movie. The other thing I'd really hate to do is kill Captain Stacy off before getting to know him. I also don't want to end the second movie with both Peter being terrified that Norman Osborn will regain his memory AND have Captain Stacy die and Gwen devastated.

I agree.

Establish Ock and GG as villains in seperate movies, then have them involved in the Stacy family deaths, again in seperate movies. Obviously Captain Stacy dying first.

I want Kraven and the Chamelon and the Scorpion to have their time to shine before the Sinister Six get together if they're going to be members (which would make it Dr. Octopus, Kraven, Chameleon or Mysterio, Scorpion, Electro and the Sandman). I don't think it's plausible to have the main story with the Chameleon and Kraven in the same movie as the Green Goblin kills Gwen or the Master Planner story, and I also don't know if the latter two stories should be told in the same movie.

Thoughts on keeping it spread at a good pace, but still getting the Six into Movie Six?

:wolverine

Well, villains like the Sandman, Mysterio and Electro don't need huge intros. I might even introduce a couple in the Sinister Six movie. Maybe Ock hears about a Sandman going on a crime spree in New York, and tracks him down and recruits him. Same with Electro. Both are petty criminals really who use their powers to steal.

Have Ock track a few of them down, similar to how he did it in the Return of the Sinister Six.

[Herr Logan]

Indeed. How many super villains has he manipulated and betrayed over the course of his career too. A prison guard would be easy for him.

Exactly.

Yeah, I don't think the Vulture's ever served time in the Vault. I've seen him in Rykers, but never in the Vault. It's not like he can mentally control his Vulture suit or anything. He doesn't warrant Vault security.

Heck they shoved him in an old folks home once where he made friends with May's fiancee Nathan Lubensky.

I think it was pretty implausible, them putting Toomes in a regular nursing home. I mean, even if he was fragile, he's still an antisocial, sociopathic criminal, and a genius to boot. I mean, even if he didn't have the ability to make a flight harness out of a TV set, it's just bad judgement to let him near normal people.

I would LOVE to see the Six on screen. And it would be even sweeter if Octavius betrayed them after using them. Just to show that part of his personality again. That he'll use and betray anyone.

Indeed.

Movie 4 looks a bit iffy. The Goblin killing Gwen is fine, but I'd have another villain in there for variety. After already seeing the Goblin in movie 2, it would be a bi of a let down if he was the only villain in movie 4. We need to see some other new villain in there. Even as just a side/cameo villain.

I know. As I said, it's not complete. One of my biggest problems with this is filling in the space in that one. There definitely need to be other villains. I just don't know what to put there that won't overshadow the Goblin.

As for movie 5, Kraven and Chameleon wouldn't offer much in the way of spectacular fight scenes. You gotta remember the public wants to see some spectacular fights.

Kraven can offer plenty of good fighting. He'll be taking a derivative of the Goblin Formula. It's based on one of the prototype samples that were stored in the OsCorp lab that Dr. Octopus and his goons raided in ASM1. The goon who snatched it on his way out sold it, and it got around. Sergei Kravinoff got tired of taking conventional steroids and looked for something more powerful. Now that we've got superhumans running around (his new idea of prey, since he ran out of animals to hunt), there must be a way to harness that power for himself, right? So yeah, he eventually gets this stuff and it makes him superhumanly strong, fast and tough, and gives him superhuman senses. No claws or any of that Ultimate bull****. He's a match for Spider-Man, and he's got tons of hunting equipment and weaponry to use. He's one of the few villains Spider-Man has in the movie series so far who not only can but does fight him hand-to-hand (I think the Scorpion and maybe some robots are the only ones, aside from a possible Rhino cameo). The Green Goblin can fight, but he does only a little hand-to-hand fighting. He's not an expert like in the movies and video game. He stays on his glider when he can, but yeah, there'll be some hardcore punching at times. Anyway, Kraven's a badass fighter.

It's possible I'll have the the Enforcers' strength artificially enhanced for some street fighting with Spider-Man.

Chameleon is useless against Spidey physically. As for Kraven, well Spidey fighting tigers and dodging spears is not exactly eye popping stuff for a superhero movie if you know what I mean.

Grrr... it'll be more than dodging spears. There will be a lot of arrows flying at him, yes, but there's other traps and tricks in Kraven's arsenal.

Another thing is, I'm thinking of having the Lizard's story in the same movie as Chameleon and Kraven. That would be a big bonus prey for Kraven, wouldn't it?

The rest of your movies look fine. You've tied all the important events in there.

Cool. I really appreciate your input. :up:

I agree.

Establish Ock and GG as villains in seperate movies, then have them involved in the Stacy family deaths, again in seperate movies. Obviously Captain Stacy dying first.




Well, villains like the Sandman, Mysterio and Electro don't need huge intros. I might even introduce a couple in the Sinister Six movie. Maybe Ock hears about a Sandman going on a crime spree in New York, and tracks him down and recruits him. Same with Electro. Both are petty criminals really who use their powers to steal.

Have Ock track a few of them down, similar to how he did it in the Return of the Sinister Six.

Electro will probably be introduced already as a fight/cameo villain in the second, third or fourth movie. The Sandman and Mysterio need real character introductions, I think. Symbiotica would smack me for this, but I don't consider Electro big on character content in a movie, but someone with sand powers probably needs a little more intro time. I mean, that's more unique, right?

Mysterio is one of the greatest villains, so he'll need proper respect paid.

:wolverine

[Joker]

I think it was pretty implausible, them putting Toomes in a regular nursing home. I mean, even if he was fragile, he's still an antisocial, sociopathic criminal, and a genius to boot. I mean, even if he didn't have the ability to make a flight harness out of a TV set, it's just bad judgement to let him near normal people.

Indeed. How easily they forgot that he is an engineer.

I know. As I said, it's not complete. One of my biggest problems with this is filling in the space in that one. There definitely need to be other villains. I just don't know what to put there that won't overshadow the Goblin.

Use Electro.

Kraven can offer plenty of good fighting. He'll be taking a derivative of the Goblin Formula. It's based on one of the prototype samples that were stored in the OsCorp lab that Dr. Octopus and his goons raided in ASM1. The goon who snatched it on his way out sold it, and it got around. Sergei Kravinoff got tired of taking conventional steroids and looked for something more powerful. Now that we've got superhumans running around (his new idea of prey, since he ran out of animals to hunt), there must be a way to harness that power for himself, right? So yeah, he eventually gets this stuff and it makes him superhumanly strong, fast and tough, and gives him superhuman senses. No claws or any of that Ultimate bull****. He's a match for Spider-Man, and he's got tons of hunting equipment and weaponry to use. He's one of the few villains Spider-Man has in the movie series so far who not only can but does fight him hand-to-hand (I think the Scorpion and maybe some robots are the only ones, aside from a possible Rhino cameo). The Green Goblin can fight, but he does only a little hand-to-hand fighting. He's not an expert like in the movies and video game. He stays on his glider when he can, but yeah, there'll be some hardcore punching at times. Anyway, Kraven's a badass fighter.

Yeah, I'm sure it will be good. But still it won't offer eye popping action, explosions, and big dazzling effects etc.

And every superhero movie needs a villain that can offer something like that.

Another thing is, I'm thinking of having the Lizard's story in the same movie as Chameleon and Kraven. That would be a big bonus prey for Kraven, wouldn't it?

Yes, that would be great. And the Lizard can certainly offer some neat fight scenes too. Especially in the creepy sewers.

Electro will probably be introduced already as a fight/cameo villain in the second, third or fourth movie. The Sandman and Mysterio need real character introductions, I think. Symbiotica would smack me for this, but I don't consider Electro big on character content in a movie, but someone with sand powers probably needs a little more intro time. I mean, that's more unique, right?

Mysterio is one of the greatest villains, so he'll need proper respect paid.

:wolverine

I don't think Sandman needs a big intro. There's not alot of depth to him. Yes his powers are unique. But they don't take a whole lot of explaining as to how he got them.

I agree about Mysterio though. Beck needs a proper intro. He's a genius in his field, and we need to see how he ended up turning to crime.

[Herr Logan]

Indeed. How easily they forgot that he is an engineer.

It's shameful. I would also hope that they never allow the Shocker anywhere near a prison workshop after the first time he escaped and became a supervillain.

Use Electro.

Done.

Yeah, I'm sure it will be good. But still it won't offer eye popping action, explosions, and big dazzling effects etc.

And every superhero movie needs a villain that can offer something like that.

You may be right about the explosions. There's always a way to make explosions occur, but there's times when it could appear forced. I'll think of something, eventually.

Yes, that would be great. And the Lizard can certainly offer some neat fight scenes too. Especially in the creepy sewers.


This is also going to be the old school Lizard who talks and rants. He won't rant too much, but when Spider-Man finally gets him going on what he's up to, he'll say he wants to create an army of lizard people and conquer humanity. Spider-Man will either burst out laughing or barely refrain from it, and taunt the hell out of him.

I don't think Sandman needs a big intro. There's not alot of depth to him. Yes his powers are unique. But they don't take a whole lot of explaining as to how he got them.

Fair enough. I don't think there's much to him, either (but more than there is to Electro, since he's got a conscience buried somewhere and he gave better dialogue in his early appearances).

I think I want to have the Enforcers working for the Sandman, and have Spider-Man take them out and foil Sandman's plot. After that, he'll join the Sinister Six.

I agree about Mysterio though. Beck needs a proper intro. He's a genius in his field, and we need to see how he ended up turning to crime.

Seriously. If he had grander vision and a mind for strategy, he could be a second-rate Dr. Doom instead of what he actually is. He's exactly what you said, and more. He's apparently a genius in several fields. I'd keep that under control and have much of his resources' origins clouded in mystery (if he uses robots), except for the special effects.

I'm so glad to know someone who really knows his villains. :up:

:wolverine

[Herr Logan]

ANNOUNCEMENT:

I've got about three days left where I know I'll have easy access to the Internet for a little while. I'm moving on Friday to a house that doesn't yet have cable internet hooked up and I'm having my current modem taken back by the cable company on Thursday morning. If there's anything you know you want me to read any time soon, try to post it before Thursday.
I'm going to try and get hooked up as soon as possible in my new place, but I don't know when that will be. I'll probably be able to check in from the campus library in a few days either way.

:wolverine

[Tangled Web]

Comiiiiics!!

[Herr Logan]

Comiiiiics!!

Um... what?

:wolverine

[The Lizard]

I wholeheartedly agree with the purists' position on the revised order of the villains in the film versions. Doc Ock should have been first, and then Green Goblin. No doubt.

However, I don't think I would have had Ock's and GG's story arcs play out over two films like Herr Logan suggests in post #66 above. Doc Ock could get his origin story and kill Capt Stacy in the same film, thus creating a bond for Peter and Gwen right off the bat - losing loved ones. True, this kind of takes the dramatic punch out of Capt Stacy revealing that he knows Pete is Spidey (which could still happen in the same film), but it still gives Ock his big impact on Pete's life by creating the situation where Pete can't tell Gwen he's Spidey.

Same thing with GG killing Gwen in the hypothetical second film. By this time, Pete and Gwen are close, so her death would still have high shock value for the general public. A Goblin origin story along with Pete's interactions with Harry and Gwen, plus the intro of MJ at the end after Gwen's death (so the film won't end on a total downer) would have made a very nice framework for SM2.

The nature of the beast that is feature film is limited by the 2-3 year production period between movies, so each villain getting one film to himself with a definite ending is still the way to go. Despite the sequential nature of the Spidey comic stories, viewers have certain expectations with feature films, and a more tidy wrap-up is needed, as well as the avoidance of anything resembling repetition between two different Spidey movies.

Which brings me to a tricky question that I now pose to Those Who Demand More, because as a moderate critic of the Spidey films, I'm not sure how I feel about it myself.

That question is -- would the third Spidey villain in this hypothetical franchise still need to be Venom?

Since Venom is arguably # 3 on the "top Spidey villains" totem pole, with whoever might be # 4 (Hobgoblin? Mysterio? Electro?) quite a bit behind, is this enough to ensure that even a purist's hypothetical third Spidey movie should feature a plot to accomodate his appearance no matter what?

[Herr Logan]

I wholeheartedly agree with the purists' position on the revised order of the villains in the film versions. Doc Ock should have been first, and then Green Goblin. No doubt.

However, I don't think I would have had Ock's and GG's story arcs play out over two films like Herr Logan suggests in post #66 above. Doc Ock could get his origin story and kill Capt Stacy in the same film, thus creating a bond for Peter and Gwen right off the bat - losing loved ones. True, this kind of takes the dramatic punch out of Capt Stacy revealing that he knows Pete is Spidey (which could still happen in the same film), but it still gives Ock his big impact on Pete's life by creating the situation where Pete can't tell Gwen he's Spidey.

Same thing with GG killing Gwen in the hypothetical second film. By this time, Pete and Gwen are close, so her death would still have high shock value for the general public. A Goblin origin story along with Pete's interactions with Harry and Gwen, plus the intro of MJ at the end after Gwen's death (so the film won't end on a total downer) would have made a very nice framework for SM2.

The nature of the beast that is feature film is limited by the 2-3 year production period between movies, so each villain getting one film to himself with a definite ending is still the way to go. Despite the sequential nature of the Spidey comic stories, viewers have certain expectations with feature films, and a more tidy wrap-up is needed, as well as the avoidance of anything resembling repetition between two different Spidey movies.

You make a very good argument, Liz, and I thank you for posting. I'm still on the fence about my franchise concept line-up, but this is what got me that far, so I'm taking it under consideration.

My biggest problem with this is that I really do want to stick with Betty Brant as the love interest for the first movie, and I want her to be Dr. Octopus' hostage for reasons mostly unrelated to Peter Parker. I would find an ending where Peter is given an ultimatum to quit action crime photography or lose Betty as the perfect substitution over the melodramatic drek in Raimi's 'Spider-Man.' It's faithful to the source material, and I think her relationship with Peter and the reasons why it ended are an important milestone for the mythos and it established the first reason why a superhero won't have an easy love life: girls don't like having their boyfriends get killed and don't want to worry all the time.

It does strike me that having a Stacy die at the end of both the first and second movie would be repetitive, but obviously not as repetitive as if the Green Goblin and Dr. Octopus both did those killings in different movies than the ones in which they were introduced.

Which brings me to a tricky question that I now pose to Those Who Demand More, because as a moderate critic of the Spidey films, I'm not sure how I feel about it myself.

That question is -- would the third Spidey villain in this hypothetical franchise still need to be Venom?

Since Venom is arguably # 3 on the "top Spidey villains" totem pole, with whoever might be # 4 (Hobgoblin? Mysterio? Electro?) quite a bit behind, is this enough to ensure that even a purist's hypothetical third Spidey movie should feature a plot to accomodate his appearance no matter what?

Unless I was given only three movies to work with, I certainly wouldn't put Venom in the third one. I'd want him last; not because I don't like him, but because I think he's the bookend for the great, classic Spider-Man era. My intention would to have Venom in the last movie and have Spider-Man get married to MJ at the very end.

In between, I think the Lizard, Kraven and the Chameleon, and the Scorpion at least should get their chance in major plots.

Also, Venom would never be just a tacked-on villain, and Eddie Brock wouldn't have any personal beef with Peter Parker whatsoever. They'd never even know each other, just like in the comics, which is what makes it all the more scary and unreasonable for Venom to attack Parker and make his life hell. A guy waging war on another guy over a girl? That happens all the time. A guy blaming someone else for his own problems with no foundation for argument but lots of private information? Now that's a criminal mind worth exploring.



As much as I like the original Hobgoblin, I'd only use him in an ongoing serial format like a TV show, since it would require it to really do the entire Goblin Legacy real justice. What I'd love is an animated series, written maturely, intelligently and as close to the original comics in terms of storyline as possible while putting it in a contemporary setting. That doesn't mean "make it modern" like Brian Michael Bendis tries to or making a lot of unnecessary changes. It would mean changing things that depended solely on the time period, such as the Cold War stuff and Vietnam stuff. The slang would be updated, but not overused (Aunt May doesn't like too much slang, after all). Basically, it would be similar to the 90's animated series, but real guns would be used, as well as words like "kill," "death," and "blood" instead of only "destroy," "oblivion" (not that you wouldn't hear those words here and there) and "plasma." And Spider-Man can punch people, God dammit!


Thanks again for posting, Lizard. :up:
I wish I had more coherent things to say in response, but I've taken my sleeping pills already.

:wolverine

[The Lizard]

My biggest problem with this is that I really do want to stick with Betty Brant as the love interest for the first movie, and I want her to be Dr. Octopus' hostage for reasons mostly unrelated to Peter Parker.

Yes, poor Betty does seem to get the short end of the stick in all the different Spidey adaptions outside the comics, doesn't she? The additional problem we could run into with the Spidey films is that if Pete has a different cute girlfriend in each movie, it kind of undermines his nerdy outcast image. In a long-running comic or TV series, the transition from no girlfriend to Betty to Gwen to MJ would flow more gradually, but in a film franchise it could almost seem like a James Bond girl situation until MJ stuck around. It's unfortunate, since I really like the Betty character (except for her gun-crazy bandana-wearing period during the '90s), but she seems destined to merely flirt with Pete outside of the comics. Perhaps another TV series could change that.
Unless I was given only three movies to work with, I certainly wouldn't put Venom in the third one. I'd want him last; not because I don't like him, but because I think he's the bookend for the great, classic Spider-Man era. My intention would to have Venom in the last movie and have Spider-Man get married to MJ at the very end.

Agreed. If the continuation of the Spidey franchise beyond 3 films were set in stone, Venom should definitely wait. I think Hollywood is still waiting for the other shoe to drop regarding superhero films, and thus we see the push to pull out all the stops before the public supposedly loses interest.

[Herr Logan]

Yes, poor Betty does seem to get the short end of the stick in all the different Spidey adaptions outside the comics, doesn't she? The additional problem we could run into with the Spidey films is that if Pete has a different cute girlfriend in each movie, it kind of undermines his nerdy outcast image. In a long-running comic or TV series, the transition from no girlfriend to Betty to Gwen to MJ would flow more gradually, but in a film franchise it could almost seem like a James Bond girl situation until MJ stuck around. It's unfortunate, since I really like the Betty character (except for her gun-crazy bandana-wearing period during the '90s), but she seems destined to merely flirt with Pete outside of the comics. Perhaps another TV series could change that.

The way I'd portray Peter Parker after he gets his powers is the way he was in the comics in that he'd be a babe magnet (let's face it, he was), without the full confidence, skills, time and stability to make it work with anyone, seemingly. Post-spider bite, he was a complete draw for women, once he got to college especially. The only thing that made people not like him there (everyone besides Flash, that is, who was holding a grudge) is because he was very distracted and was mistaken for snubbing and ignoring everyone.
In high school, he had Betty Brant and Liz Allen vying for his affections, which is how I'd have it in the first movie. Liz probably won't show interest until not only does Peter get his powers, but he also starts dating Betty Brant-- both factors boost his confidence and comes across as attractive, in addition to the fact that it's ironically bad timing.
In college, two even more attractive women were practically having cat fights over him. When Gwen didn't like him, it's actually because she liked him and he didn't show interest, and Peter never had to try to get Mary Jane to like him at first.

The main themes for Peter's personal life here are irony and frustration. Not only have the new powers given him a job to do, it's given him traits that let him unconsciously overcome his geeky outcast status, and only through unfortunate circumstances and lasting reputation was he seen as a complete nerd afterward. The problem is, he can't make good on it, because the powers and crimefighting are also a huge consumer of time, availability, energy and focus. He doesn't have his head clear enough to make new friends, and when he does, he has to keep disappearing and blowing off dates/appointments, and back when he could juggle everything well enough, his girlfriend couldn't stand him being in danger, so he could never tell her the truth.

Sam Raimi's movies got this wrong, among many other things. Or at least he was inconsistent about it. At times, Peter was confident enough to talk well enough (the context for it is not only unfaithful but disgustingly trite... Mary Jane was never Peter's object of affection before college, in any conceivable way), and others, he's not just a geek, he's a complete idiot with nothing to say.
That's the other main thing that Raimi got wrong about Peter Parker: he made him a blithering, indecisive child instead of a witty, mature young man. I'm not even going to get into the more obvious ways in which Parker's intelligence was hidden in the first movie (*cough*organicwebshooters*cough*), but even though he seemed to have book smarts in the second one, he didn't know a damn thing about what he wanted to do with his life. I'm not judging people his age that have that same problem, but I condemn anyone who would even think of presenting Peter Parker in that light.

Did the real Peter Parker know what he wanted to do with his life? Of course he did!! He just couldn't make it work for the same reasons he couldn't handle his social life all that well and had trouble in school. It's not because he didn't know, it's because he couldn't punch a clock the way a non-superhero could. Peter Parker wanted to be a bio-chemist. I would have that made very clear in my movies. He knows what he wants and he knows who he wants, but he can't make it work. Period. This is not primarily the story of a man discovering who he is after the first movie. It's a discovery of the world and the types of people in it, and what he discovers about himself whether he can can handle that world and those people under various circumstances. Again, it's not about what he wants or who he is, it's about how those things stack up against what's going on and how things are. That's the tragedy of it all. If a person doesn't know what they want and don't get it, who the hell cares? If a person actually has their act together for the most part and still gets denied at every turn, then that sucks and people might care that it sucks.

Peter Parker has never been an "everyman" character-- a common misconception people like to pass around-- up until recent years. He was always smarter than most people, and not just in book smarts. He was self-aware, and we saw all of his self-knowledge through the word bubbles. There would be a lot of voiceover from him in my movies. Not for every little thing, though, and it would be well-timed with what's going on. You can get a lot of comic mileage out of it as well. If 'Fight Club' and other great movies with self-narration can get away with running voiceover commentary, I think Spider-Man can.
Anyway, Spider-Man is one of the most interesting characters to me because of his self-awareness and the fact that there's something worth being self-aware about. My movies would get into his psychology as much as is appropriate, and he would never be seen as a mystery to the audience. What we see is an intelligent, mature, neurotic, self-deprecating young man trying to deal with life's challenges at the highest (saving the city from megalomaniacs who possess weapons of mass destruction) and lowest (thinking up excuses to tell Aunt May for why he's home so late) levels. I think if it was done the way I envision it, the non-action aspects might appeal to adults as much if not more than to kids in many ways, since it's grounded in psychological reality, and the moral dillemmas are decided on picking the less selfish choice, not the selfless thing as choice to the selfish choice. We're working on a higher level of philosophical thinking and moral development here.

Agreed. If the continuation of the Spidey franchise beyond 3 films were set in stone, Venom should definitely wait. I think Hollywood is still waiting for the other shoe to drop regarding superhero films, and thus we see the push to pull out all the stops before the public supposedly loses interest.

Sounds about right. Good assessment.

Venom deserves to be done properly, whichever position in the franchise he/they happen to show up.
Just as I'm interested in the psychology of Spider-Man, I'd certainly get into Eddie Brock's psychology and definitely work the "lethal protector" aspect-- the fact that does believe he's a hero and does heroic things when not harassing Spider-Man-- for all it's worth.

:wolverine

[The Lizard]

Peter Parker has never been an "everyman" character-- a common misconception people like to pass around-- up until recent years. He was always smarter than most people, and not just in book smarts. He was self-aware, and we saw all of his self-knowledge through the word bubbles.

Very astute point, and one that highlights a flawed, egocentric thought process in many Spidey fans (including myself at times) who have consistantly seen Peter as an 'everyman'. We consider Peter an average guy like "us", because we'd like to think that we possess the traits and particular issues Peter has. It's nice to think that the only reason that beautiful girls don't show an interest in you is because you lack confidence or appear distracted. It's nice to think that you're much more intelligent than most people around you but they would still admire your winning personality if they only got to know you. It's nice to think that your misfortunes and financial problems merely come from being self-sacrificing, or from "that old Parker luck". In the real world however, our faults, quirks and mistakes aren't quite so noble and idylic in origin.

It is indeed good that Peter has issues, misfortunes and self-doubt -- particularly back in the days when all comic book heroes were supposed to be bland pictures of perfection both in and out of costume. However, you are correct in that Peter is an extraordinary person with ordinary problems. That these ordinary problems mostly result from his stubborn insistence on coupling great responsibility with great power is what makes him a character we should emulate.

[Spider-Kid]

This threads really cool.

VENOM PICTURE!
http://www.canmag.com/images/front/spiderman/fanart-venom.jpg