Another curiosity: anyone here who disliked Michelle Pfeiffer's portrayal of Catwoman

[Dr. Fate]

No fear of reprisal now, we're all fans here. Is there anyone here who was not completely satisfied with Michelle Pfeiffer's portrayal of Catwoman? I'm not talking about whether or not you found her hot as Catwoman, I'm talking about her overall characterization. Even if you didn't dislike it, was it just something you really didn't care for.

[El Payaso]

No. I like her 100%

[The Joker]

She was perfect in the role.She was everything Catwoman was meant to be and more.

[batmaluco]

She was great!

[The Chairman]

Michelle Pfeiffer made the part her own. She was the best actress ever to appear in a Batman movie.

[Bat Attack]

I don't know how anyone could have hated her in that role. She owned it. :up: :up:

[XCharlieX]

That woman sure can play crazy lol :up:

[union_jak]

She was practically perfect.

Anyone who says otherwise should be locked in a room with Batman & Robin on the tv.

[Kevin Roegele]

No, I think she is the best translation of a character from a comicbook to a movie after Christopher Reeve as Superman.

[titan101]

no.she was perfect as catwoman

[TheGrayGhost]

No fear of reprisal now, we're all fans here. Is there anyone here who was not completely satisfied with Michelle Pfeiffer's portrayal of Catwoman? I'm not talking about whether or not you found her hot as Catwoman, I'm talking about her overall characterization. Even if you didn't dislike it, was it just something you really didn't care for.

I didn't like the characterization of Catwoman in BR. I thought it was pretty lame. But what's the point of bringing it up now? Catwoman and the Burton films are a thing of the past. In the words of Stephen Colbert, "They're dead to me."

[SKSpawn]

I liked her as Burton's Catwoman, she fit the mould he made very well and looked the part perfectly.

Myself, however, I would like to see Catwoman done how she is really meant to be: a very skilled and talented theif, not a woman with cat-like powers.

[Dr. Weir]

She was perfect in the role.She was everything Catwoman was meant to be and more.

you can say that again!:up:

[Nightwing1977]

I thought she was great in the role, despite few problem I have with how the character was use in BR. She was so great that I wasn't sure how she could pull it off before we first see her in the role, 'cause Michelle never struck me as the type to play a role like Catwoman. Meow! ;)

[Dr. Fate]

I liked her as Burton's Catwoman, she fit the mould he made very well and looked the part perfectly.

Myself, however, I would like to see Catwoman done how she is really meant to be: a very skilled and talented theif, not a woman with cat-like powers.
That's all I wanted to know.

[The Kid]

no halle berry's was better.


lol




no she did a great job. Purrrfectly capturing the soul of catwoman. My fav one was and probably will always be the one from the 60s show though. She was a mean bich and totally like the comic one I'm sure. Don't really care cuz I'll still love her, but yeah she was probably a more comic accurate version.

[boydston_14]

She was practically perfect.

Anyone who says otherwise should be locked in a room with Batman & Robin on the tv.

But, if they didn't like her portrayal of Catwoman, they would probably like B&R. That wouldn't be torture at all!

Anyways, Michelle Pfeiffer was awesome as Catwoman.

[Kevin Roegele]

I liked her as Burton's Catwoman, she fit the mould he made very well and looked the part perfectly.

Myself, however, I would like to see Catwoman done how she is really meant to be: a very skilled and talented theif, not a woman with cat-like powers.

Pfeiffer's Catwoman was a thief, and she had all the acrobatic skills of the comics. Burton could have just given us a sexy thief, but he spent the time creating a fascinating character and fleshing out Catwoman far more than any previous media has done. Which is more important really?

[Katsuro]

Michelle's Catwoman rocked. That's all that needs to be said.

[newwaveboy87]

she didn't have cat-like powers in BR.
:confused:

in Halle Berry's CINO they gave her magical powers, but in BR a lot of that had to do with symbolic meanings, imagery, and metaphors.

[spidey207]

she was nothing short of excellent, I loved every minute of it.

[Benstamania]

Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman was great in every way accept her origin. Died and brought back to life by cats? Lame.

[Two-Face]

Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman was great in every way accept her origin. Died and brought back to life by cats? Lame.

I also agree.:up:

[newwaveboy87]

oi vey.....ok, i shall explain this once more!
her origin is not "resurrection by cats," her origin is a bit complicated.

Selina Kyle as we see her early in the film is mousy, repressed, and demure, adhearing to all the stereotypes that dominate feminity. her house is pink, it's full of cutesy things, and it's all very girly. once she begins to discover dark things about her boss, the emergence of a new personality is being created. when he shoves her out the window the old Selina is dying, and the new Selina is being born. tough, sexual, dominant, fierce - Catwoman as we know her to be for the rest of the film is being born as Selina falls through one canopy after another. by the time she hits the ground, she's only metaphorically died, not literally. she takes on the persona of a cat for two reasons: it's the first thing she sees when she reawakens with her new persona, and because it is the symbol of the person who 'killed' the old version of her.

throughout the rest of the movie the two personalities are clashing for dominance in her mind, with the end being that Catwoman wins out and Selina Kyle as we knew her is no more.

[Two-Face]

Anyway I prefer TAS version of Catwoman, they got it right and hopefully we see better origin this time by Nolan, I'm sorry bitten by cats was lame and still is if Burton made the film now. Selina Kyle was never "girly pinkly" kind of a way who worked at Max Sheck's company. Again it was all Tim Burton version not the comic book version anyawy.

[newwaveboy87]

BR is all about dual-identity and Batman's dual-identity is being explained and dealt with through his villians who mask him. i think it's a unique way to do it, and as such they had to create a transformation for both Penguin and Catwoman to show how easily Batman could've ended up on the wrong side of the law, so the actual villian in the piece is Max Shreck.

but, if they just stick to the cat burglar storyline :up:
if they go the former prostitute route...:down

[Two-Face]

Sure where was Batman in all these? Batman was a second paddle.

[newwaveboy87]

indeed, that was the major problem with the first franchise, sure exploring your main character through the villians is an interesting way to do it...but they should remain secondary to main character.

[Two-Face]

I agree with you there, Burton Batman movies was very good but he forgot one ingredient "BATMAN" himself.

[newwaveboy87]

well...it's not he forgot...it's just that he misplaced him in the grand scheme of things

[Benstamania]

oi vey.....ok, i shall explain this once more!
her origin is not "resurrection by cats," her origin is a bit complicated.

Selina Kyle as we see her early in the film is mousy, repressed, and demure, adhearing to all the stereotypes that dominate feminity. her house is pink, it's full of cutesy things, and it's all very girly. once she begins to discover dark things about her boss, the emergence of a new personality is being created. when he shoves her out the window the old Selina is dying, and the new Selina is being born. tough, sexual, dominant, fierce - Catwoman as we know her to be for the rest of the film is being born as Selina falls through one canopy after another. by the time she hits the ground, she's only metaphorically died, not literally. she takes on the persona of a cat for two reasons: it's the first thing she sees when she reawakens with her new persona, and because it is the symbol of the person who 'killed' the old version of her.

throughout the rest of the movie the two personalities are clashing for dominance in her mind, with the end being that Catwoman wins out and Selina Kyle as we knew her is no more.

..Ok...well...it's not explained like that in the movie. It's "she's dead and cats bring her back to life."

[newwaveboy87]

...no...it's explained like that in the movie.
it's just that Batman Returns is more "art film" than "superhero" or "Batman" film.

[Bat Attack]

According to Tim himself, "Less is more".

[Benstamania]

How was I supposed to get that at 13? lol, to this day I still think it's corny. I get what you mean by what Burton was going for....but the way it was pulled off...eh.

i don't know, I guess I just don't like it. I know I'm not the only one that thought "She was brought back to life by cats? Wow, thats stupid." I have a good friend that DETESTS that part of the movie and skips past it whenever he watches Returns.

[newwaveboy87]

the part that gets me in Returns is when Penguin drives his Duckmobile UP A FLIGHT OF STAIRS!? :confused:

[Benstamania]

Ha, yeah never really thought about that until now.....and why he bleeds tar.

[newwaveboy87]

he bleeds a greenish black color because it's a symbol of corruption in German expressionist films.

[Benstamania]

Your just full of answers aren't you? If there was a Jeopardy "Batman Returns" edition you'd clean house. :p

[newwaveboy87]

it's one of my favorite Burton films.
i know all about....:(
i have no life

[Two-Face]

well...it's not he forgot...it's just that he misplaced him in the grand scheme of things


I guess you can call that.:up:

[newwaveboy87]

indeed, Batman is present in the films, just not in the forefront.

[captain_jimbo]

I agree with you there, Burton Batman movies was very good but he forgot one ingredient "BATMAN" himself.

It's strange, I know a lot of people say this, but I love Burton's Batman films the best, and I don't feel he was really playing secong fiddle. Certainly not in the way Cyclops has in the X-Men movies, although I like them too.:)

[El Payaso]

It's strange, I know a lot of people say this, but I love Burton's Batman films the best, and I don't feel he was really playing secong fiddle.

It is just like a popular thing to say.

[Two-Face]

It's strange, I know a lot of people say this, but I love Burton's Batman films the best, and I don't feel he was really playing secong fiddle. Certainly not in the way Cyclops has in the X-Men movies, although I like them too.:)


Burton shoulkd have called "Joker Penguin and Catwoman Returns."
Batman was second character to his villains, one of the reasons why Batman franchise was rebooted?

[WhiteRat]

As far as her overall portrayel and characterization of Batman no I had no problem with her as catwoman and thought she did a great job.I did not like what Burton did to her though making her wear all that unnessary makeup.Instead of making her look hot like Catwoman is suppose to be,he made her look like a ghost and I was not at all attracted to her unlike I was with Eartha Kitt or Julie Newmar from the 60's show.The proof is in the pudding here folks that Michelle Phieffer was a good catwoman but michael keaton was a bad Batman.This thread has no negative posts towards Phieffer,however the keaton thread is flooded with criticisems of him.

[WhiteRat]

Burton shoulkd have called "Joker Penguin and Catwoman Returns."
Batman was second character to his villains, one of the reasons why Batman franchise was rebooted?

yeah thats one of the reasons the Burton batman movies suck is because Batman was just a supporting character to the villains in Burtons movies.

[El Payaso]

Yeah, she looked ugly and not hot at all.

[WhiteRat]

I also agree.:up:

I as well agree.

[El Payaso]

Burton shoulkd have called "Joker Penguin and Catwoman Returns."
Batman was second character to his villains, one of the reasons why Batman franchise was rebooted?

How about WB wanting to make more money out of Batman?
How about Batman & Robin?

Although I can picture a bunch of executives, troubled as hell, head in their hands, going, 'I couldn't sleep well, just doing some thinking. You know what I've just realized? Batman hadn't screetime enough in the movies.' 'Yeah, you're right.' 'Exactly. This man deserves another franchise, let's go.' 'Yeah! Go Batman go!'

[The Joker]

Burton shoulkd have called "Joker Penguin and Catwoman Returns."

That would have been pretty dumb,since none of those characters returned.They all just had one movie each.

Batman was second character to his villains, one of the reasons why Batman franchise was rebooted?

No,the franchise was rebooted because Schumacher decided to bastardize the characters so badly that they became campy shadows of the true characters they were supposed to be.

[Ceb-Man]

Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman was great in every way accept her origin. Died and brought back to life by cats? Lame.

I agree.:up:

[ZERO]

No.

[WhiteRat]

its funny how since everybody here agrees that she was good in her role,the thread quickly dies down where in the keaton thread,people dont agree so that thread is still going.:D

[mister Lennon]

Althought the movie was bad, the script was a joke and the origin was lame, she was amazing, fantastic, and hot as hell. In my eyes, she is the one and only catwoman.

[mister Lennon]

its funny how since everybody here agrees that she was good in her role,the thread quickly dies down where in the keaton thread,people dont agree so that thread is still going.:D

Clear proof that he was a total mistake in the role. Almost 20 years after, his casting is still hated with passion by many and many fans. That shows that something didnt work as well as some people are tryng to post.

[newwaveboy87]

your sig makes no sense.

"best music band ever" - is there any other kind of band named the beatles? isn't music band redundant?

"more lovely british actress of all time?" shouldn't it be Most lovely?

[mister Lennon]

Maybe you are right. I fixed it, and sounds better. But i think that everyone knows what i was trying to say.

[newwaveboy87]

yeah, i got the gist of it...but i had to read it twice to make sure i wasn't misreading. looks good now. :up:

[El Payaso]

Michelle and Michael were fantastic my trollish trio.

Amen brothers.

[mister Lennon]

Hahaha, good one. The king troll himself calling troll to some other. Try better, kid.

[El Payaso]

Hahaha, good one. The king troll himself calling troll to some other. Try better, kid.

Yeah, we trolls recognize each other. The HAHAHA, the 'kid'.

[Everyman]

I loved Michelle Pfeiffer as Catwoman, but like the Burton's Batman, there was nowhere the character could go after her appearance in Batman Returns. That was the problem with the two Batman films: they are self-contained, more artsy films (although quality ones) than Batman films. Batman is perfect material for a serie of films, and Burton didn't take the character in this direction. He limited Batman to his own vision, so to speak. In a way, the seeds of the Schumacher movies were in the Burton ones, it Burton's lack of interest for continuity )there is barely any between the first two) and in his cavalier way of dealing with the villains. Ask yourself, had there be a direct sequel to Batman returns, with Tim Burton at the helm, what could Catwoman have done after? I tried to imagine this, but always came up with a less psychotic version of her, something weaker than what she was in Returns. Because Burton's Catwoman was self contained.

[newwaveboy87]

you say he limits Batman to his own vision, well...every director who has ever done a comic book adaptation has limited the character to their own vision. think about it, they're never 100% accurate, and sometimes they aren't even10% accurate.

[Everyman]

you say he limits Batman to his own vision, well...every director who has ever done a comic book adaptation has limited the character to their own vision. think about it, they're never 100% accurate, and sometimes they aren't even10% accurate.

Yes of course, and I love his take on Batman, I just think that the movies were improper to start a series. For that, you need a part for the impersonnal, so to speak, something that the director will take as it is. James Bond had it from the beginning, to some extend SPider-Man, X-Men have it (although it might be early to tell) but not Burton's Batman, because Burton is a very personnal director. I love his Batman movies for what they are, and Pfeiffer's Catwoman is simply the best interpretation of the character so far, acting wise anyway. But she is self-contained in Batman Returns.

[newwaveboy87]

what do you mean by "the X-Men have it (althought it might be early to tell)"? the franchise is done (supposedly). the only thing left is spin-offs for solo characters.

[Everyman]

what do you mean by "the X-Men have it (althought it might be early to tell)"? the franchise is done (supposedly). the only thing left is spin-offs for solo characters.

Did they say the franchise was done and all was left was spin off? We cannot be sure of that, you can have spin off for solo characters, but there is no reason to think that they want to cut the franchise into many new ones. I haven't seen The Last Stand, but from what I know they kept it open for a sequel. As I said, it's early to tell.

Anyway, back on topic, Burton's Batman were not the best material to base a series on to say the least.

[newwaveboy87]

as far as us X-Men fans have been told there is no plans for an X4 instead we're getting a Wolverine, Magneto, and young X-Men spin offs, and a possible Emma Frost movie.

[El Payaso]

Did they say the franchise was done and all was left was spin off? We cannot be sure of that, you can have spin off for solo characters, but there is no reason to think that they want to cut the franchise into many new ones. I haven't seen The Last Stand, but from what I know they kept it open for a sequel. As I said, it's early to tell.

Anyway, back on topic, Burton's Batman were not the best material to base a series on to say the least.

Topic is Michele Pfeiffer as catwoman.

[the_joker]

Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman was great. I didn't mind Burton changing the orignal Batman storyline in the movies because it worked well imo.

And I always thought the cats were just nibbling/bitting her fingers and she regained concious from the feeling, as opposed to the cats giving her cat-like strength and 8 lives.

[Everyman]

Topic is Michele Pfeiffer as catwoman.

And I did talk a lot about it in various posts here... Catwoman in Returns was great, but like the rest of Burton's Batman, she was not series material.

[Everyman]

And I always thought the cats were just nibbling/bitting her fingers and she regained concious from the feeling, as opposed to the cats giving her cat-like strength and 8 lives.

I think so too. Selina Kyle's "resurrection" was symbolical/metaphorical and in no way concrete. She didn't really die either.

[Everyman]

as far as us X-Men fans have been told there is no plans for an X4 instead we're getting a Wolverine, Magneto, and young X-Men spin offs, and a possible Emma Frost movie.

It's already a proof that there the form of the X-Men movies make series possible, sequels or spin off. Something that was difficult to do with Burton's Batman movies. Catwoman was a great, tragic character, probably much more intense than she was in the comics, but using her again would have diminished this. She was "killed", "resurrected", she became extraverted and eroticized, she murdered her mysoginistic (homosexual?) boss, she survives death after that. Then what? These are meaningful events in one's life, and it is quite difficult to top. I am curious about Burton had in store for Catwoman, but I wonder if there was anything left to say.

[newwaveboy87]

where on earth did you get that Max Shreck was a homosexual?

[Everyman]

where on earth did you get that Max Shreck was a homosexual?

Not concretely, more metaphorically/symbolically but he is very mysoginistic and the only affection he has seems to be for his son, a tall and handsome man. In this family cell, the mother is absent. Notice than in the movie, all heterosexual feelings are either disgusting (the Penguin is very libidinous, but difformed and because of this sexually frustrated) or confluctual (Batman/Catwoman).

[newwaveboy87]

Shreck isn't a homosexual.
the creator of Catwoman? yes. the manipulator of Penguin? yes. the true villian of the film? yes. homosexual? no. the only affections he has are for his empire and the fact that he's bred his son to take over that throne once he's gone. things are stated about his past dealings with women - "Women. Nothing surprises me, except your late mother."

not all heterosexual feelings are disgusting or confrontational. Bruce and Selina's relationship is actually fairly healthy and built upon understanding and sense that they are the other half of each other, it isn't until their dual identities are known that things start to go wrong.

[Everyman]

Shreck isn't a homosexual.
the creator of Catwoman? yes. the manipulator of Penguin? yes. the true villian of the film? yes. homosexual? no. the only affections he has are for his empire and the fact that he's bred his son to take over that throne once he's gone. things are stated about his past dealings with women - "Women. Nothing surprises me, except your late mother."

not all heterosexual feelings are disgusting or confrontational. Bruce and Selina's relationship is actually fairly healthy and built upon understanding and sense that they are the other half of each other, it isn't until their dual identities are known that things start to go wrong.

I did not say he was, not concretely anyway, I said he could represent, metaphorically/symbolically, a homosexual person (I put the question mark in my first post about it because it is debatable, I do think anyway that there is some inuendo. Superman is not Christ, he can however represent him). As for the relationship between Selina and Bruce, while not disgusting, is certainly doomed and definitely confrontational. They end up understanding each other, they do not end up together in the end, Selina even rejects Bruce Wayne.

But this topic was about Catwoman's portrayal in the film. I wonder if you (or anybody) have any hypothesis where the character could have gone from Batman Returns.

[newwaveboy87]

Selina doesn't reject Bruce, Catwoman does.
by the end of the film Selina is no more, and Catwoman is the dominant personality in her mind.

[Everyman]

Selina doesn't reject Bruce, Catwoman does.
by the end of the film Selina is no more, and Catwoman is the dominant personality in her mind.

Doesn't change a thing to what I said: Selina/Bruce relationship is doomed.

[newwaveboy87]

The Selina/Bruce relationship did have hope, but it was Schrek would killed Selina at the end, and thus - killed their relationship. if Shcrek hadn't interfered, things might have turned out decent.

we'll never know.

and ANY relationship Bruce has with people outside of Alfred, Dick, and Gordon is most likely doomed to failure.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

she was the best...mmm mmm finger lickin good

[Everyman]

The Selina/Bruce relationship did have hope, but it was Schrek would killed Selina at the end, and thus - killed their relationship. if Shcrek hadn't interfered, things might have turned out decent.

we'll never know.

and ANY relationship Bruce has with people outside of Alfred, Dick, and Gordon is most likely doomed to failure.

I don 't think in the end Shrek's interference mattered that much, Selina/Catwoman was tempted to go with Bruce/Batman, but in the end rejected him: she said "I just wouldn't be able to live with myself" or something of the sort. She willingly rejected the offer.

As for Bruce Wayne's numerous failed relationship, it just proves my point: heterosexual relationships don't seem to work very well in the Batman world.

But back on topic: anybody thinks like me that, while Pfeiffer's Catwoman was great, her development and existence was limited to Burton's movie? Because of the very personnal and "exclusive" vision of the director, because of the tragic treatment of the character, because of the lack of continuity of Burton's Batman, etc. And this is in no way criticism. I love Peiffer's Catwoman, but as something exclusive to Batman Returns's universe.

[newwaveboy87]

what is your hang up on homosexuality?
even Bruce's friendships with men don't work out - Harvey Dent comes immediately to mind.

as for Selina/Catwoman, by that time they both knew each's secret dual identity and were going to go talk about, Penguin interferes, kidnaps Schrek, and takes him to his liar. Catwoman wants Schrek dead, not Selina - she's too meeky for that, by the end of it Selina's identity is dead, Catwoman is the new main personality. Schrek created Catwoman and killed Selina. it's shown from her origin onwards to be as such.

[Dr. Fate]

But back on topic: anybody thinks like me that, while Pfeiffer's Catwoman was great, her development and existence was limited to Burton's movie? Because of the very personnal and "exclusive" vision of the director, because of the tragic treatment of the character, because of the lack of continuity of Burton's Batman, etc. And this is in no way criticism. I love Peiffer's Catwoman, but as something exclusive to Batman Returns's universe.
That's why I started the thread.

[Everyman]

what is your hang up on homosexuality?
even Bruce's friendships with men don't work out - Harvey Dent comes immediately to mind.

as for Selina/Catwoman, by that time they both knew each's secret dual identity and were going to go talk about, Penguin interferes, kidnaps Schrek, and takes him to his liar. Catwoman wants Schrek dead, not Selina - she's too meeky for that, by the end of it Selina's identity is dead, Catwoman is the new main personality. Schrek created Catwoman and killed Selina. it's shown from her origin onwards to be as such.

Well, his male friendships sure work better than his love affairs! But in Batman Returns, there is some veiled erotic subtext, much more intelligent and subtle than the stupid Schumacher movies (where they are blatant, unsubtle and plain stupid). It isn't the main part of the movie, it is one element among many, but it is there. Or at least, it is debatable but legitimate to defend there is one. Batman Returns is partially inspired by Murnau's Nosferatu and other German Expressionists movies, movies often fileld with sexual subtext (it is certainly the case of Nosferatu). In Returns, as I said, the most openly heteroerotic character is the Penguin, who is in many different occasions libidinous to the point of being lecherous, and he is shown as being both sexually frustrated and sexually disgusting. Batman is heterosexual, but sexually frustrated: his life as a vigilante made him loose Vicky Vale and Catwoman ultimately rejects him. Max Shrek is a sexually inactive man, he is misogynistic and shows genuine affection only towards his son. Again, in this family cell, the woman is absent (because Mrs Shrek is dead of course). Concretely, in the first degree, Shrek is just a widower with a natural love for his son. Just like Batman is a vigilante forced to loose the women he loves for his cause. This is the first degree. Metaphorically, because of his chauvinism and because of the way heterosexuality is depicted in the whole movie, the picture is a bit different: the only love that exists in Batman Returns and somewhat survives (Shrek dies but does not have to witness his relationship crumble) is a older man/younger man Platonic relationship. This has slight homosexual tone, IMO. There is nothing wrong with it, by the way. You can find homosexual content in many works of fiction. I don't think it is the main element of Batman Returns, but I do think that the story makes sense as a picture of sexual frustration (Batman, Penguin and Catwoman are all, for some reason or another, sexually frustrated).

[newwaveboy87]

you're reading a slight homosexual tone into a father-son relationship? and elements of sexual frustration? dear, the main characters relationships deal in masochism. the picture's main point is in duality.
you're adding in homosexual subtext where there isn't much to be found. why are you so hung up on homosexuality?
you and the crackpot Freud would be great friends.

[IzzyJG99]

Like others have said before I liked her performance. The kind of cooky-ness to her character was rather nice. I liked the costume they came up with and she made it work. She had the figure to pull it off. Was her origin something I liked? Nope, but it worked for the movie.

[Everyman]

you're reading a slight homosexual tone into a father-son relationship? and elements of sexual frustration? dear, the main characters relationships deal in masochism. the picture's main point is in duality.
you're adding in homosexual subtext where there isn't much to be found. why are you so hung up on homosexuality?
you and the crackpot Freud would be great friends.

All your ad hominem attacks aside, you probably read the first post where I mention a possible homosexual element in a movie that HAS sexual subtext (for God's sake, Catwoman's costume looks like a S&M one, something everybody noticed when it was released. And you mention yourself masochism). In this first post (and I know it is pointless to repeat it), I put the word homsexual in parenthesis, and I put a nice little question mark in it. It wasn't the main part of my analysis of BR, it isn't something I would even defend fiercely, it was just a hypothesis and should have been taken as such and I think I was very careful to stress the fact that this was just very hypothetical. So far, I have been answering your questions,you are the one coming back to it and being so obsessed by it (I could ask you why you are so hostile towards it). Yes, the picture deals with duality, but there are many ways to look at duality, and many ways to express duality. It is possible to see BR as a picture of sexual frustration, you don't need to be Freud to see this, just look at BR's influences by German Expressionism, and look at the characters's relationship, psychology, temper, etc. There is not just one way to interpret a work of fiction.

[newwaveboy87]

no, i get the workings of sexual frustration, what i don't get is where you're pulling out homosexual dubtext. in BF? definitely. B&R? duh! BR...not so much.

[Everyman]

no, i get the workings of sexual frustration, what i don't get is where you're pulling out homosexual dubtext. in BF? definitely. B&R? duh! BR...not so much.

As I aid, it was an hypothesis, based on the whole picture of BR. I could easily have said that Shrek is sexually impotent (or at least sexually inactive) and is the only person satisfied with it, while the other characters, all unambiguously heterosexual, are frustrated by their desire. And in BF and B&R, it was not even a subtext, it was pretty blatant, and pretty thick. In BR, you could say that Shrek's misogyny, combined with his love for his son (the only sign of affection he ever shows) and with the way heteroerotic behaviros are pictures in the movie, that there might be some kind of Platonic homosexual feelings. Not concretely but metaphorically. And again, that is just an hypothesis. And I am not coming back to it, it is egtting pretty tiredsome and it's off topic.

[newwaveboy87]

it's not even metaphorically.
their relationship is father-son, the nature of homosexuality is a romantic love for another person of the same-sex. i don't know about you, but i have no romantic love for members of my family.

i'm just saying, throwing around homosexuality, platonic or not, as the basis of the relationship between Schrek and his son is stretching logic and the very definitions of words.

[Everyman]

Was her origin something I liked? Nope, but it worked for the movie.

It was both the strenght and weakness of Batman Returns. It stands well as a movie independant from the source material, but does not work so well as part of a series. Catwoman in BR is a wonderful tragic figure, but she wouldn't work as a recurring character.

[newwaveboy87]

none of the characters in the movies could've returned as reoccuring characters besides the central figures of the mythos - Batman, Alfred, Robin, and Gordon. everyone else is expendable, yes, even in the new franchise.

[Everyman]

it's not even metaphorically.
their relationship is father-son, the nature of homosexuality is a romantic love for another person of the same-sex. i don't know about you, but i have no romantic love for members of my family.

i'm just saying, throwing around homosexuality, platonic or not, as the basis of the relationship between Schrek and his son is stretching logic and the very definitions of words.

As I said, it was an hypothesis. And Shrek was quite a male chauvinistic.

[newwaveboy87]

doesn't make him a homosexual. if anything, that makes him one of the most heterosexual characters in the entire film.

[Everyman]

none of the characters in the movies could've returned as reoccuring characters besides the central figures of the mythos - Batman, Alfred, Robin, and Gordon. everyone else is expendable, yes, even in the new franchise.

In the new franchise, Scarecrow can come back. Rha's Al Ghul can come back. In the old one, Joker couldn't, Penguin couldn't, Catwoman technically could, but I doubt her presence would have been as strong had she come back (or it would have been very difficult. That said, I always wondered what Burton had in mind for her, since he made her survive). The new franchise seems to be a real superhero serie, like many of the new superhero films now, with a good deal of recurring characters, including villains. The old Batman had films that worked more or less as independant units. This is not a criticism, but a recurring Catwoman would have been difficult to picture. In a way, this is the difference between medieval romance cycles and tragedy: with tragedy, you have a one deal offer, one story, then it's over, it's the end of history, of all possible narratives. In cycles, you can practically put more and more stories, plots, subplots, ad infinitum.

[newwaveboy87]

yes, they could come back, and i could apply the same to various characters in the X-Men movies too - Toad, Sabretooth, Nightcrawler, Deathstrike, and Senator Kelly ALL could've come back for the sequel(s), but they weren't needed. that's what i'm saying about the new franchise - they COULD come back, but the question is - are they needed for the story?

[Everyman]

doesn't make him a homosexual. if anything, that makes him one of the most heterosexual characters in the entire film.

So he is mysoginistic and sexually inactive and seems to have no interest in women (except maybe his late wife). And then he is unambiguously straight? I am not convinced. Maybe the Platonic love is a bit far fetched, his lack of interest in women is still troubling, in a movie that makes such a big case of sexual attraction/repulsion. But anyway, I am really tired of that off topic topic and I won't bother to answer it anymore.

[newwaveboy87]

no, his entire character is built up as power hunger. women, the city of Gotham, Bruce, Penguin, Selina - they're all pawns to him. things he tries to play with. just because we don't see it front and center doesn't mean it can't be infered within the way he conducts himself.

he wants power, he wants control, he back stabs, lies, cheats his way to try and get to the top - ultimately is he brought down by his two creations and Batman to a lesser extent.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I just didn't like how different she was from the comics, that was my only gripe.

[Everyman]

yes, they could come back, and i could apply the same to various characters in the X-Men movies too - Toad, Sabretooth, Nightcrawler, Deathstrike, and Senator Kelly ALL could've come back for the sequel(s), but they weren't needed. that's what i'm saying about the new franchise - they COULD come back, but the question is - are they needed for the story?

I am not saying that they are a necessity for the new franchise. I am saying that the enw franchise gives more possibility for recurring characters. It leaves the door open for Scarecrow, Rha's Al Ghul, Zsasz, etc. As a character, BR's Catwoman was great, a wonderful tragic antiheroin. But so closely associated with the Batman Returns universe that I doubt she could have come up as strong had she been used in a film of the old franchise. That said, thank God Schumacher didn't decide to use her in one of his pseudo-Batman movies!

[the_joker]

So he is mysoginistic and sexually inactive and seems to have no interest in women (except maybe his late wife). And then he is unambiguously straight? I am not convinced. Maybe the Platonic love is a bit far fetched, his lack of interest in women is still troubling, in a movie that makes such a big case of sexual attraction/repulsion. But anyway, I am really tired of that off topic topic and I won't bother to answer it anymore.

I agree with Everyman, that the Burton's films were full of mixed metaphors and characters representing other emotions/feelings etc. Burton is an excellent filmmaker who incorporates these things into his movies. Shreck could have well been a homosexual, only the creators truly knows that.

[I am 6' 3½"]

I thought Michelle Pfeiffer's interpretation of Selina Kyle/Catwoman was :up:

[Super_Ludacris]

Potrayl wise Pfeffier was great and c'mon you know you hit puberty when you saw her in that latex outift, I was only 8 and she had sprung!

[I am 6' 3½"]

Potrayl wise Pfeffier was great and c'mon you know you hit puberty when you saw her in that latex outift, I was only 8 and she had sprung!I was pretty damn young as well... SCHWING!

[newwaveboy87]

i was like....5

[The Chairman]

I was 3 1/2.

[jusblaze21]

I like her portrayal as Catwoman.

[mcflytrap]

No fear of reprisal now, we're all fans here. Is there anyone here who was not completely satisfied with Michelle Pfeiffer's portrayal of Catwoman? I'm not talking about whether or not you found her hot as Catwoman, I'm talking about her overall characterization. Even if you didn't dislike it, was it just something you really didn't care for.

I thought she was one of the best parts about BR.

[Everyman]

Potrayl wise Pfeffier was great and c'mon you know you hit puberty when you saw her in that latex outift, I was only 8 and she had sprung!

She was a bit too S&M for my taste, but I guess she was sexy.

As I said, Pfeiffer's Catwoman was a great, complex, tragic character. Sadly, the way she was written, she was an on/off character, I doubt she could have worked in other movies, sequel or spin-off, without being diminished.

[Clouseau]

i didn't really care for Pfeiffer's Catwoman that much... she was sexy, but the character just seemed to be lacking something, and i can't quite put my finger on it...

i wasn't terribly thrilled with DeVito's Penguin, either, though, so maybe it's just me... i like that the film was dark, but the characters just didn't work enough for me...

[Mr. Killah]

The "taser kiss" scene is awesome!

[The Batman]

she was good.

however, newmar was even better.

[newwaveboy87]

Newmar...better?
not for my money.

[The Chairman]

Newmar...better?
not for my money.

Yeah, that's utter bull****. No one will ever be better than Michelle IMO. She is the part.

[Clouseau]

nah, Julia is Catwoman! she absolutely defined the role!


*waiting to laugh at the first person who pulls for Halle Berry* :)

[The Batman]

Julie was everything comics catwoman was supposed to be. Not to mention she was actually a thief, not some shy girl turned psycho. While michelle was good, she just wasnt everything catwoman was supposed to be. julie, however, was.