for the Last Time, Two-Face is white in TAS.

[Morgoth]

Bruce Timm said he thought it was weird that some thought Lex and Two-Face were black just 'cause they had outlined lips.

I knew they were white, but sometimes you still see people saying that well, it's not true, and just because someone has big lips doesn't make them black.

[Tin_Man]

Bruce Timm said he thought it was weird that some thought Lex and Two-Face were black just 'cause they had outlined lips.

I knew they were white, but sometimes you still see people saying that well, it's not true, and just because someone has big lips doesn't make them black.


I figured they were black because of their darker skin

[TheOriginalman]

I figured they were black because of their darker skinWhere do these people get this stupid idea hat Two Face (or on another post, Lex Luthor) is Black? Nothing shows me that Two Face is Black.

[CConn]

I figured they were black because of their darker skinI don't know about Two-Face, but Luthor's appearance was based on Telly Savalas. And Telly, being Greek, had a rather dark complexion.

http://img2.imagepile.net/img2/69162321.jpg

[Tin_Man]

Where do these people get this stupid idea hat Two Face (or on another post, Lex Luthor) is Black? Nothing shows me that Two Face is Black.


Look at what you quoted, and you will have your answer, Einstein :o


Seriously, though. Dark complexion = black. It's a stereotype, but then again, that's what alot of cartoons focus on; unless you watch/read otherwise, you'll believe he's black. Im not insisting that he actually is, mind you. Just presenting the other POV.

[Ibn]

I figured they were black because of their darker skin

And there you have it. Thank you man. Also, I haven't really seen that many white cats who can pull off that pre Two Face Harvey hairstyle. Also, whoever was doing his voice b4 he was Two Face has the blackest voice in the history of cartoons. Just a few things that would lead people to get this stupid idea that Harvey and Lex were black. Where Exactly can I find this Bruce Timm interview? I'd like to see what else he thinks.

[Bathead]

I think the reason some think he is black is two-fold (no pun intended), One, the features he is drawn with are kinda racially ambiguous, and two, because Burton cast Billy Dee Williams as Dent in B'89.

[CConn]

I haven't really seen that many white cats who can pull off that pre Two Face Harvey hairstyle.Jews can do it.

Jews can do anything.

[SHADOWBAT69]

And there you have it. Thank you man. Also, I haven't really seen that many white cats who can pull off that pre Two Face Harvey hairstyle. Also, whoever was doing his voice b4 he was Two Face has the blackest voice in the history of cartoons. Just a few things that would lead people to get this stupid idea that Harvey and Lex were black. Where Exactly can I find this Bruce Timm interview? I'd like to see what else he thinks.


lol, the actor was Richard Moll, Bull from Night Court. Where the devil did all this race confusion on these characters come from? In all my years being a fan and collector, talking to dozens of fans, have i ever heard of this confusion until this thread.

[TheOriginalman]

And there you have it. Thank you man. Also, I haven't really seen that many white cats who can pull off that pre Two Face Harvey hairstyle. Also, whoever was doing his voice b4 he was Two Face has the blackest voice in the history of cartoons. Just a few things that would lead people to get this stupid idea that Harvey and Lex were black. Where Exactly can I find this Bruce Timm interview? I'd like to see what else he thinks.Neither Two Face or Lex Luthor were voiced by Black actors. Two Face was played by Richard Moll (Bull from Night Court). Lex was played by Clancy Brown (the Kurgan from the first Highlander movie). Still that wouldn't prove anything even if they were voiced by Black actors. The Kingpin on the Spiderman animated series was voiced by a Black actor, yet he's clearly White.

[Odin's Lapdog]

does it really matter what the individual thinks?

everyone who thinks he's white will keep thinking that

everyone who thinks they are black will keep thinking that

everyone in the middle will do what they do.

the fact of the matter is that race doesn't harm the story so WHO HONESTLY CARES????

there's absolutely nothing to gain or lose from debating this.

[Morgoth]

Where do these people get this stupid idea hat Two Face (or on another post, Lex Luthor) is Black? Nothing shows me that Two Face is Black.They didn't have darker skin either, Timm even said Lex had the same color as Superman.

They are white. They don't look darker than Bruce or Clark. Peolpe see outlined lips and think they're meant to be ethnic, I never thought so, just a distinct feature.

[trustyside-kick]

How could people think that in TAS Lex and Two-Face were black?

[newwaveboy87]

Jews can do it.

Jews can do anything.
god bless the Jews.
i love them so!

[captain_jimbo]

Well I never thought Lex Luthor was black, but when I was younger I wasn't sure whether Two-Face was black, white, or of mixed race. Not that it matters anyway.

[trustyside-kick]

Well I never thought Lex Luthor was black, but when I was younger I wasn't sure whether Two-Face was black, white, or of mixed race. Not that it matters anyway.

Did you think that because of the Batman 89 movie? They had an actor as Harvey Dent who is black. That always bothered me.

[captain_jimbo]

Did you think that because of the Batman 89 movie? They had an actor as Harvey Dent who is black. That always bothered me.

No, I just thought in the animated series his skin looked dark. But why did it bother you that he was black in Batman 89?

[Two-Face]

Maybe he is white in comics but it not bother me cos Burton's Harvey Dent was hardly in the movie. Hopefully Nolan will give him a screen time he deserves in Batman 2.

[trustyside-kick]

No, I just thought in the animated series his skin looked dark. But why did it bother you that he was black in Batman 89?

Because I like to be as close to the comics as possible. He was shown white in the comics. I also disliked how in the Daredevil movie they made Kingpin black; simply because he is not in the comics.

[newwaveboy87]

i don't care if they change the race of some supporting/minor characters.
like if they made Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Two-Face, or Riddler a different race - wouldn't bother me. hell, they could change Robin's race and i probably wouldn't care.

there's only a few characters were race should actually matter.

[captain_jimbo]

Because I like to be as close to the comics as possible. He was shown white in the comics. I also disliked how in the Daredevil movie they made Kingpin black; simply because he is not in the comics.

Yeah, I understand where you're coming from, although I quite liked Michael Clarke Duncan as The Kingpin.

[Odin's Lapdog]

i don't care if they change the race of some supporting/minor characters.
like if they made Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Two-Face, or Riddler a different race - wouldn't bother me. hell, they could change Robin's race and i probably wouldn't care.

there's only a few characters were race should actually matter.
which characters are these?

personally, i don't care as long as it doesn't affect the story or is just used as a gimmick.

it really doesn't matter. It's like telling people off when reading the comics for not reading xavier, juggernauts or gwen staceys quote boxes with an english accent.

i mean no one gives a flying monkeys or really should, it's all in the viewer's interpretation.

[newwaveboy87]

which characters are these?

personally, i don't care as long as it doesn't affect the story or is just used as a gimmick.

it really doesn't matter. It's like telling people off when reading the comics for not reading xavier, juggernauts or gwen staceys quote boxes with an english accent.

i mean no one gives a flying monkeys or really should, it's all in the viewer's interpretation.
Alfred needs to be an old white butler because his character is of a certain generation, and a certain time in how things operated in Britain.

Batman needs to be white because his character's family history - they're wealthy WASPs going back a few generations, and given the history of the US any other race couldn't have done that.

oh, and race also matters if the names of the character depict a certain nationality - Montoya comes to mind - or if their race is actually important to their character's background - Lucius Fox anyone?

i agree with the rest of your statements though. people complain about Juggernaut being cockney in the movie, but in the comics there is no heard voice, and Xaiver is English in the movies. his step-brother needed to be from somewhere in England. that's just one example.

[trustyside-kick]

i agree with the rest of your statements though. people complain about Juggernaut being cockney in the movie, but in the comics there is no heard voice, and Xaiver is English in the movies. his step-brother needed to be from somewhere in England. that's just one example.

But you forget one huge thing...they never hinted that Juggernaut in this movie is related to Charles. I mean, he is not even a mutant just has that ruby (I forget what it is called) and that special helmet; in the film he is a mutant and that helmet is just to protect his head when he smashes into crap...so what you just said really is not valid because he would not have to of had a british accent.

Plus, like you said he is his step-brother, so he would not have to be british even if they acknowledged him as being related to Charles.

[newwaveboy87]

But you forget one huge thing...they never hinted that Juggernaut in this movie is related to Charles. I mean, he is not even a mutant just has that ruby (I forget what it is called) and that special helmet; in the film he is a mutant and that helmet is just to protect his head when he smashes into crap...so what you just said really is not valid because he would not have to of had a british accent.

Plus, like you said he is his step-brother, so he would not have to be british even if they acknowledged him as being related to Charles.
there was a deleted scene where they explained that ....:down :(

[trustyside-kick]

there was a deleted scene where they explained that ....:down :(

You just said the magic words: deleted scene. Since it was not shown he did not have to have a british accent since in the theatres the audience did not see them acknowledge them as relatives.

But whatever...we all have our opinions...I do not like them changing nationalities on most characters.

But I guess it is somewhat similar to what you said...it depends how big of a part the character plays. In Batman Year One the commissioner is white while in Batman Begins the same commissioner is black instead; that did not bother me. It bothers me more when the character is more important.

[newwaveboy87]

i still fail to see the problem with changing supporting character nationalities if the race isn't important to the character.

[trustyside-kick]

i still fail to see the problem with changing supporting character nationalities if the race isn't important to the character.

The first thing I mentioned that bothered me was how in 89 Harvey Dent was black, which led to me mentioning Kingpin in the Daredevil movie, which got you into this thing about the race for the characters in the films. Someone as big as Harvey Dent being changed like that doesn't bother you? Like if that happened in Nolan's sequels too? You don't see people nominating other race actors to play Two-Face do you?

[newwaveboy87]

The first thing I mentioned that bothered me was how in 89 Harvey Dent was black, which led to me mentioning Kingpin in the Daredevil movie, which got you into this thing about the race for the characters in the films. Someone as big as Harvey Dent being changed like that doesn't bother you? Like if that happened in Nolan's sequels too? You don't see people nominating other race actors to play Two-Face do you?
actually...I DO!
somone nominated Terrence Howard for Two-Face and i think that is quite brilliant as far as wishful thinking casting goes.

no, Harvey Dent being black wouldn't bother me. it didn't the first time around, doesn't now. Catwoman being black didn't bother me, in both the Year One comic, 60s show, and movie (the character/plot/movie in general did bother me). Kingpin being black didn't bother me.

[Odin's Lapdog]

Alfred needs to be an old white butler because his character is of a certain generation, and a certain time in how things operated in Britain.

Batman needs to be white because his character's family history - they're wealthy WASPs going back a few generations, and given the history of the US any other race couldn't have done that.

oh, and race also matters if the names of the character depict a certain nationality - Montoya comes to mind - or if their race is actually important to their character's background - Lucius Fox anyone?

i agree with the rest of your statements though. people complain about Juggernaut being cockney in the movie, but in the comics there is no heard voice, and Xaiver is English in the movies. his step-brother needed to be from somewhere in England. that's just one example.I think your references to colours of bats and alfred are only constant depending on time frame the stories are set in. As we go through history, if these stories remain, the interpretation of these characters in the future's given time may show that butlers can be from all different races or that bruce's family can be to as long as society itself grows to accept the full integration of all races in all social statuses in multi racial society.

saying that, we aren't quite there yet, so your points hold up.

[Odin's Lapdog]

But you forget one huge thing...they never hinted that Juggernaut in this movie is related to Charles. I mean, he is not even a mutant just has that ruby (I forget what it is called) and that special helmet; in the film he is a mutant and that helmet is just to protect his head when he smashes into crap...so what you just said really is not valid because he would not have to of had a british accent.

Plus, like you said he is his step-brother, so he would not have to be british even if they acknowledged him as being related to Charles.
dude, there are plenty of characters that didn't have proper origins or nationalities.

as much that they changed juggs, i'm glad they kept him british, i only hope they can do the same for gwen stacey.

[Odin's Lapdog]

here's on for you folks, what about if originally black characters became white?

storm, black panther, animated lex luthor...

:p

[newwaveboy87]

Storm and Black Panther have to be black, it's apart of their characterization.
Black Panther comes from a long line of African nobility and so does Storm.

[trustyside-kick]

here's on for you folks, what about if originally black characters became white?

storm, black panther, animated lex luthor...

:p

Animated Lex Luthor was not black.

[Seth71]

Also, I haven't really seen that many white cats who can pull off that pre Two Face Harvey hairstyle.

It just seemed slicked back to me. Any white person could have his hair that way. Italian mobsters wear their hair that way all the time in movies.
Actually young Bruce in Mask of the phantasm pulled off the same hair do . Isn't he a white cat?

Also, whoever was doing his voice b4 he was Two Face has the blackest voice in the history of cartoons.

Why, because it was deep? I guess if you listened to Elvis voice and didn't know he was white you would have thought he was black? Voice says nothing. There are white and Asian people with deep voices too. That's just stereotype from your part.

[November Rain]

Animated Lex Luthor was not black.blacker than you are...

:o

[November Rain]

Storm and Black Panther have to be black, it's apart of their characterization.
Black Panther comes from a long line of African nobility and so does Storm.not necessarily, they could be arabic/middle eastern looking in nature depending on the location of their fictional kingdoms....

[Seth71]

does it really matter what the individual thinks?

everyone who thinks he's white will keep thinking that

everyone who thinks they are black will keep thinking that

everyone in the middle will do what they do.

the fact of the matter is that race doesn't harm the story so WHO HONESTLY CARES????

there's absolutely nothing to gain or lose from debating this.

So true. It's just that people have this stereotype in their minds and see the whole world that way. Sad really.

[Seth71]

They didn't have darker skin either, Timm even said Lex had the same color as Superman.

They are white. They don't look darker than Bruce or Clark. Peolpe see outlined lips and think they're meant to be ethnic, I never thought so, just a distinct feature.

To be fair, I do think Harvey had a darker skin, which doesn't mean anything. There are Caucasians with lighter and darker complexions. Georg Clooney and John Stamos for example clearly have a darker complexion than Nicole Kidman for example.
I always had the impression the man were all made darker than the women in TAS. You can clearly see that in MOTP where young Bruce is clearly darker than Andrea. Not a big deal at all, unless you worship the Swastika.

[November Rain]

alfred was pretty pale,

[Seth71]

which characters are these?
personally, i don't care as long as it doesn't affect the story or is just used as a gimmick. it really doesn't matter. It's like telling people off when reading the comics for not reading xavier, juggernauts or gwen staceys quote boxes with an english accent.


Exactly. Would you rather have Georg’s Batman in B&R just because he’s white but the character’s totally off or a black/asian/Hispanic Batman where the character’s personality, actions and essence would be dead on? I go with the later any day of the week. The good thing about all that is the people who cares about stereotypes and race is slowing dying off. I think my grandson will laugh about all that. I sure laugh when my dad tells people stopped talking to him when he made friends with his fellow quarterback partner in HS because the quarterback was black. The apex of human ignorance.


i mean no one gives a flying monkeys or really should, it's all in the viewer's interpretation.

The sad thing is that a lot of people still do.

[Seth71]

Alfred needs to be an old white butler because his character is of a certain generation, and a certain time in how things operated in Britain. .

Alfred could also be made a black British butler. Why not? I don’t think there’s a rule for getting into butler school in England. Not now, not 30 years ago(1976). Don’t forget we are in 2006. In 1939, I could give you that, but not in this day and age. He could be black (or anything, since British is a nationality and not a race) and still have the British accent, humor and dad like figure, which is what really makes the character. If looks was all that made the character, neither Gough or Caine is Alfred because they look nothing like him in the comics, not body, not face.



Batman needs to be white because his character's family history - they're wealthy WASPs going back a few generations, and given the history of the US any other race couldn't have done that.

Going back then, yes. But this is 2006. Couldn’t Thomas Wayne have married a non “white” woman in 1974? Off course he could have. Specially being the philanthropist and good man he was. I doubt he was attached to such low values as race. I’m sure we could find many examples of whites marring other ethnicities in the 70’s. In the showbiz and otherwise. Like did you know Linda Carter was part Mexican? Did it matter?


oh, and race also matters if the names of the character depict a certain nationality - Montoya comes to mind -

Couldn’t Montoya’s father be Hispanic(giving her the last name), but the mother be white and Rene looked like her mother and nobody would think of her as Hispanic till they heard her last name, or not even then ? Oh yes. I know people with Hispanic last names that are as white as it gets, with green eyes and all.

or if their race is actually important to their character's background - Lucius Fox anyone?

Fox could be anything as long as his personality stays the same. Personalities and character make characters (maybe that’s why they are called characters), not “race”.

[Seth71]

i still fail to see the problem with changing supporting character nationalities if the race isn't important to the character.

Nationality is not race.

[Mothling]

I still can't get over the fact that two-Face isn't black.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v69/echidna86/1548.jpg
Now you mention it though, he doesn't look black. Weird. I guess its my own fault for not paying attention to him for all these years.

[trustyside-kick]

blacker than you are...

:o

How would you know?

[November Rain]

because you aren't denying it

;)

[trustyside-kick]

I'm dominican (like A. Rod, Sosa, or Ortiz; baseball players for the late person); ancestors are spaniard and black. What do you mean I am not denying it? All I said was how would you know. :P

[newwaveboy87]

Nationality is not race.
haha...WHOOPS!
i didn't edit that one enough before postage

[newwaveboy87]

Alfred could also be made a black British butler. Why not? I don’t think there’s a rule for getting into butler school in England. Not now, not 30 years ago(1976). Don’t forget we are in 2006. In 1939, I could give you that, but not in this day and age. He could be black (or anything, since British is a nationality and not a race) and still have the British accent, humor and dad like figure, which is what really makes the character. If looks was all that made the character, neither Gough or Caine is Alfred because they look nothing like him in the comics, not body, not face.

throught out my entire post i was thinking back to when Batman was created which would render characters like Batman and Alfred absolutely necessary to be white. why? they were of the only race that could attain the level of class, and prestige that was needed. and Alfred is from an older generation as well, even if he was hired thirty years ago his character would've still been older, and thus from a different generation. unless you're trying to make Alfred fresh out of training, but knowing that he's worked for the Wayne's since BEFORE Bruce was born - social history makes Alfred necessary to be white.



Going back then, yes. But this is 2006. Couldn’t Thomas Wayne have married a non “white” woman in 1974? Off course he could have. Specially being the philanthropist and good man he was. I doubt he was attached to such low values as race. I’m sure we could find many examples of whites marring other ethnicities in the 70’s. In the showbiz and otherwise. Like did you know Linda Carter was part Mexican? Did it matter?
i'll address this first since it can now not be mentioned again - Lynda Carter's not being Greek is what bothered me. her being English, Mexican, and...*forgets third thing* didn't because she was already racial imperfect for the role. that show was also before my time, and i have never seen it.

but on to the other subject, yes, technically Bruce's father could've married someone of a different race, but when dealing with characters being translated from one media to another i believe that they should be translated from their point of origin, which with DC is complicated because they've all been revamped adnauseum, but Bruce's hasn't changed really. and seeing as how i hold this belief, and knowing that the character was created in 1939 - Bruce's family comes from a long line of blue blood WASPs and as such, they need to be white. and even if we did go by your logic, Thomas Wayne would've most likely married someone close to his economic standing. why? social history portrays that people tend to marry within their own class system, yes exceptions to the rule do exist, but they are called exceptions for a reason. and social class being what is was then, how many minorities were in a position of great wealth in those days? not many.



Couldn’t Montoya’s father be Hispanic(giving her the last name), but the mother be white and Rene looked like her mother and nobody would think of her as Hispanic till they heard her last name, or not even then ? Oh yes. I know people with Hispanic last names that are as white as it gets, with green eyes and all.
i never said she couldn't be a halfer. i'm related to several Hispanic people with red hair, blonde, blue eyes, pale skin. i just said she needed to be Hispanic. don't care if she's played by someone who's half or whole, or even if they're nationality is off, as long as their race is the right one.


Fox could be anything as long as his personality stays the same. Personalities and character make characters (maybe that’s why they are called characters), not “race”.
i could've swore Fox's race tied into his character...something or other about his struggle to climb up the social ladder? or maybe i'm just making a real world connection...? hmm...i might have to go look this one up.

[El Payaso]

I don't know about Two-Face, but Luthor's appearance was based on Telly Savalas. And Telly, being Greek, had a rather dark complexion.

http://img2.imagepile.net/img2/69162321.jpg

Savalas was Greek. Luthor is not. Therefore the confusion.

[newwaveboy87]

Luthor and Two-Face never looked black to me...:confused:
i guess i could see mistaking Two-Face for a half-something, but Luthor...?

[November Rain]

the deep voice acting....don't forget the voice acting,....

both were fairly deep. it's easy for a different racial picture to be cast in the minds of people when certain things are done.

and for all those that thought they were black, it's not like john stewart black, but more light skinned or half cast with black-esque features and a deep voice associated with cool black guys.


Still doesn't matter, never affected any of the stories and it was never addressed, just as it should be, race should never be an issue, good is good and bad is bad.

[IzzyJG99]

The fact you idiots thought they were black makes me laugh so damned hard.

[ganstaman56]

Bruce Timm said he thought it was weird that some thought Lex and Two-Face were black just 'cause they had outlined lips.

I knew they were white, but sometimes you still see people saying that well, it's not true, and just because someone has big lips doesn't make them black. in The New Adventures Of Batman And Robin his skin was kinda mixed. and how the **** does his lips make him black or white?

[patrickbateman]

Luthor reminds me of vin diesel

so is vin black or what?

[newwaveboy87]

i think Vin is half

[trustyside-kick]

Luthor reminds me of vin diesel

so is vin black or what?

I recall Vin never wanting to answer that question. I always thought he was hispanic; that or a mix.

[Lobo]

Vin answered He said he's half white half black

I dont see why people thought Luthor and Two face were black in TAS, not all white people are the same pasty shade, and also the black characters such as Steel were colored noticably darker

[newwaveboy87]

i was watching an episode last night of Superman on Boomerang - one of the World's Finest eps - anyway, Batman and Luthor have a scene and they're the SAME COLOR!

[trustyside-kick]

i was watching an episode last night of Superman on Boomerang - one of the World's Finest eps - anyway, Batman and Luthor have a scene and they're the SAME COLOR!

omgwtfbbq? rly? Lol, just kidding. [/internet_chat]

Yea...I really do not get why people could think he was darker...

[newwaveboy87]

Bruce and Clark are the same color too!

[Hades]

I always figured Bruce and Harvery were Italian...

[Lazlo Panaflex]

I knew they were white, but sometimes you still see people saying that well, it's not true, and just because someone has big lips doesn't make them black.
Mick Jagger and Steven Tyler are prime examples.

[newwaveboy87]

Angelina Jolie is another, or Liv Tyler, Denise Richards

[Riven]

Furthermore... who cares??