Truth, Justice, 'all that stuff'?

[MunsonCall]

I watched one of the trailers for Superman Returns where Perry White asks, "Does he still stand for truth, justice, all that stuff?" Hold the presses there Perry, to my recollection, he stands for truth, justice, and the American way. I don't know what kind of motivation or agenda the writers, director, producers have, but I am SORELY disappointed in their cowardace in changing what an American icon Superman has been.

One can still be patriotic without being nationalist. If the execs or somebody at Time Warner or DC thinks that for this movie to do well (especially overseas), we can't say that Superman stands for "the American way", I pledge right now, your movie will do $8.50 worse in America, because I won't see it.

The other way to look at this is that Perry White represents the "liberal mainstream media". (I consider myself a libertarian, and that phrase is starting to get on my nerves, but I digress.) Perry has always been somewhat of an antagonist in the DC universe. This might be him playing true to character, and that's what the writers are using this for. If that's the case, I stand corrected, and I'll gladly see the movie. On the other hand, if that is not the case, I am saddened for the direction DC is taking the heroes I grew up with.

When Superman: The Movie came out in the 70's, this country was in pretty bad shape. The country had come through Vietnam, Watergate, the American economy was out of whack. This country was really questioning what 'the American way' was. Yet somehow Christopher Reeve could look in the camera and say that Superman stands for 'truth, justice, and the American way'. The people behind S:TM knew the ideals the Superman represents, and they weren't afraid to say it.

Some who read this may disagree and please, flame away. This is America, and we're still allowed to do that. But for now, from what I have seen, I'd rather see Superman: The Movie than Superman Returns. SR may have better special effects, but STM has a lot more courage and a lot more soul.

BTW, Other's have picked up on this, too: http://talesofawanderingmind.blogspot.com/2006/06/american-way.html

[LostSon88]

Superman no longer belongs to simply America...the Man of Steel is a UNIVERSAL symbol of hope, peace and nobility for billions around the globe.

Superman doesn't belong to the US, he belongs to the world.

Why must he single out a paticular country?

[Superman79]

the Man of Steel is a UNIVERSAL symbol of hope, peace and nobility for billions around the globe.



Ironically, those were all the things America symbolized to the world prior to 1992-the present...hence American Way is not just "America", but the values America stood for at it's core.

It could/and likely would be argued differently now given the situation in the world, but that is the base-line of it.

[atomicbattery]

Wow.

I just heard a piece on the radio about conservatives on the internet trying to start a boycott of SR, and look what pops up at SHH- a Superman 'fan' (with all of two posts) voicing his outrage over the excision of 'the American way'. What a coincidence.

Don't worry MunsonCall, even if this thread dies I'm sure that O'Reilly or Limbaugh or Coulter (Oh, that's right- you're not conservative, you're a libertarian. Sorry.) will help spread the word on this 'issue'.

Go ahead, boycott 'Superman Returns'. I'll make up for your $8.50.
Several times over.

[Jochimus]

Go ahead, boycott 'Superman Returns'. I'll make up for your $8.50.
Several times over.

Now THAT is patriotism without nationalism. Sign me up, sarge. :D

[Fantasyartist]

Personally, apropos of my previous post, i have always had doubts as to what practical use "Truth, Justice and The American Way" mean. The Man of Steel should leave the overt nationalism to marvel characters such as Captain America. Is Superman, thw world's protector or just Uncle Sam's super powered bully boy?

Terry

[Malus]

They've excised it for political correctness.
It wasn't politically incorrect for Superman to apologize to the President for his absence when restoring the dome to the Capitol in Superman II.
Superman may "belong to the world" as one poster says, but his allegiance is first and foremost to America. Superman fought the Nazis. He fought all the Axis powers in the pages of Superman and Action Comics. For crying out loud, he even urged Americans to buy war bonds on the cover of Action Comics.
AND - he was CREATED by the sons of JEWISH IMMIGRANTS who were proud Americans to their core.
He is every bit as quintessentially American as Captain America.
This is cowardice on Warner's part. It's politically correct revisionist bullcrap. They could have at least left it in for Western audiences, who know how that sentence ends. Put the abbreviated version in the prints headed to France; who cares? But here in America, where Superman was created, we'll be unconsciously mouthing the end of that sentence.
It's as iconic as "Faster than a speeding bullet" and "Look, up in the sky! etc."

I'm not at all surprised by this, and I'm not bothered enough to boycott the movie. I'll still see it twice today; once with my children and again with my girl.
But it's a sad day when Perry White can't finish that sentence appropriately.

[superdad]

Its liberal Hollywood at its finest.

:supes: :supes: :supes:

[Andy C.]

I've never been that fond of them starting to weed out "The American Way" from the Superman mythos, especially since now in the Post-Crisis continuity, most of his more admirable traits come from his upbringing in the Kent family than his roots on Krypton. Superman is who he is because of embracing and endorsing moral and philosophical stances primarily designated as "American" values. The Red Son and True Brit are prime examples of that (though True Brit was more of a parody than anything else) Superman may "belong to the world now," but first and foremost he's always been viewed as an American figure.

That being said, I think boycotting the movie is a bit much. As unfortunate as it is that the people behind Superman are watering down the character for the sake of not alienating readers/viewers, it's hardly as if he's out burning the flag or helping out terrorists.

[thechubbysaint]

If one ignores whatever opinion you may have of present day America, and you look at the core principles the country was founded upon and the success those values/principles have had in influencing other countries to be free and help the down trodden, you will see that the American Way isn't a slight to other countries at all. If anything it should encourage better conduct by us on the international stage in regards to human rights, the downtrodden, and especially in standing up to genocidal evil. The 'American Way' is meant to be inspirational like the founding principles. If other countries are turned off by that, then they may be focusing too much on the controversial actions America has taken and not enough on our humanitarian side.

[Malus]

If one ignores whatever opinion you may have of present day America, and you look at the core principles the country was founded upon and the success those values/principles have had in influencing other countries to be free and help the down trodden, you will see that the American Way isn't a slight to other countries at all. If anything it should encourage better conduct by us on the international stage in regards to human rights, the downtrodden, and especially in standing up to genocidal evil. The 'American Way' is meant to be inspirational like the founding principles. If other countries are turned off by that, then they may be focusing too much on the controversial actions America has taken and not enough on our humanitarian side.

:up: :up: WELL SAID!
Pretty much what I was thinking but didn't have the verbal skill to put together. Congrats.

[HeroLover]

If the mainstream media were liberal, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in today.

[Robin91939]

I watched one of the trailers for Superman Returns where Perry White asks, "Does he still stand for truth, justice, all that stuff?" Hold the presses there Perry, to my recollection, he stands for truth, justice, and the American way. I don't know what kind of motivation or agenda the writers, director, producers have, but I am SORELY disappointed in their cowardace in changing what an American icon Superman has been.

One can still be patriotic without being nationalist. If the execs or somebody at Time Warner or DC thinks that for this movie to do well (especially overseas), we can't say that Superman stands for "the American way", I pledge right now, your movie will do $8.50 worse in America, because I won't see it.

The other way to look at this is that Perry White represents the "liberal mainstream media". (I consider myself a libertarian, and that phrase is starting to get on my nerves, but I digress.) Perry has always been somewhat of an antagonist in the DC universe. This might be him playing true to character, and that's what the writers are using this for. If that's the case, I stand corrected, and I'll gladly see the movie. On the other hand, if that is not the case, I am saddened for the direction DC is taking the heroes I grew up with.

When Superman: The Movie came out in the 70's, this country was in pretty bad shape. The country had come through Vietnam, Watergate, the American economy was out of whack. This country was really questioning what 'the American way' was. Yet somehow Christopher Reeve could look in the camera and say that Superman stands for 'truth, justice, and the American way'. The people behind S:TM knew the ideals the Superman represents, and they weren't afraid to say it.

Some who read this may disagree and please, flame away. This is America, and we're still allowed to do that. But for now, from what I have seen, I'd rather see Superman: The Movie than Superman Returns. SR may have better special effects, but STM has a lot more courage and a lot more soul.

BTW, Other's have picked up on this, too: http://talesofawanderingmind.blogspot.com/2006/06/american-way.html
Wow, what a waste of time this is. Anyway...all you people that have complained about this haven't seen it in context.

Perry says this AFTER he goes through all the sections of the newspaper.

He says along the lines of:

"Sports- how are they going to get that plane off the field. Photos- Olsen, I want to see pictures of him everywhere. Buisness- how's this going to effect the stock market, long-term short-term? Travel- where'd he go? was he on vacation? Health- Has he gained weight? Fashion- is that a new suit? Politics- does he still stand for truth, justice, all that stuff. Lifestyle...Superman Returns."

The "all that stuff" was a reference to the MANY other ways that they could cram Superman into the Daily Planet. It wasn't just a gloss over to be politically active. Also, how many people would feel comfortable saying to a crowd of people: "Truth, Justice, and the American way"...a little corny and unnatural if you ask me.

I can't believe this bothers people.

-R

[Malus]

Bolding in quotes is mine:
Wow, what a waste of time this is. Anyway...all you people that have complained about this haven't seen it in context.

Perry says this AFTER he goes through all the sections of the newspaper.

He says along the lines of:

"Sports- how are they going to get that plane off the field. Photos- Olsen, I want to see pictures of him everywhere. Buisness- how's this going to effect the stock market, long-term short-term? Travel- where'd he go? was he on vacation? Health- Has he gained weight? Fashion- is that a new suit? Politics- does he still stand for truth, justice, all that stuff. Lifestyle...Superman Returns."

The "all that stuff" was a reference to the MANY other ways that they could cram Superman into the Daily Planet. It wasn't just a gloss over to be politically active. Also, how many people would feel comfortable saying to a crowd of people: "Truth, Justice, and the American way"...a little corny and unnatural if you ask me.

I can't believe this bothers people.

-R

The fact that he omits "American way" after just having categorized the potential query under "politics" makes it all the more obvious.

Would it really have been any cornier than that awkward take on "Look, it's a bird, it's a plane..." by Lois, Perry and Jimmy that comes a bit later?

Just look at all the American flags seen throughout Spiderman 1 & 2. Spidey's climactic leap at the close of SM1 is from an American flagpole. Practically every house on Aunt May's street is flying the stars & stripes. Now there's some overt patriotism.
Yet it would have felt far more appropriate in a Superman movie. Superman is the original American superhero. In fact superheroes themselves -indeed, comics- were something uniquely American in the first place.

You "can't believe" this bothers anyone?
Many would call me a big bleeding heart liberal. And I'm certainly no conservative or Republican. I oppose what we're doing overseas and how we're handling the terror threat, I'm disgusted by the all-out assault on our rights and I think FOX News is a right-wing propagandist joke.
And yet this whitewashing of the red, white & blue from Superman bothers me, yes. It bothers me plenty.

Superman saves the world.
But Superman is an American.
And you bet he stands for the American Way.
That's what his creators intended.

[Frosty81]

Superman no longer belongs to simply America...the Man of Steel is a UNIVERSAL symbol of hope, peace and nobility for billions around the globe.

Superman doesn't belong to the US, he belongs to the world.

Why must he single out a paticular country?

Thank you, Sir. Kal-El was not sent to the United States. He was sent to the planet Earth. I am glad the movie represented his concern for people in need all over the world.

Batman is the protector of a city. Superman is the protector of a planet. Not one country or another. He transcends our political boundaries. Some people just need to deal with that fact.

- Chris

[Superman79]

Bolding in quotes is mine:


The fact that he omits "American way" after just having categorized the potential query under "politics" makes it all the more obvious.

Would it really have been any cornier than that awkward take on "Look, it's a bird, it's a plane..." by Lois, Perry and Jimmy that comes a bit later?

Just look at all the American flags seen throughout Spiderman 1 & 2. Spidey's climactic leap at the close of SM1 is from an American flagpole. Practically every house on Aunt May's street is flying the stars & stripes. Now there's some overt patriotism.
Yet it would have felt far more appropriate in a Superman movie. Superman is the original American superhero. In fact superheroes themselves -indeed, comics- were something uniquely American in the first place.

You "can't believe" this bothers anyone?
Many would call me a big bleeding heart liberal. And I'm certainly no conservative or Republican. I oppose what we're doing overseas and how we're handling the terror threat, I'm disgusted by the all-out assault on our rights and I think FOX News is a right-wing propagandist joke.
And yet this whitewashing of the red, white & blue from Superman bothers me, yes. It bothers me plenty.

Superman saves the world.
But Superman is an American.
And you bet he stands for the American Way.
That's what his creators intended.

Attaboy:up: :up:

The American Way is not the policies by any means. It is the spirit of what this country was founded on. Freedom, fellowship, brotherhood, and most importantly opportunity. America is still a place with more opportunites than anywhere else in the world (if you don't believe that, I have 11 million illegal and some 15+ million legal immigrants who would tell you otherwise).

That is what Superman stands for, not oil, not republicans, not democrats, not liberal or conservative, but Hope, Opportunity, Freedom...these are things that America has embodied for years and despite current issues will embody for years more.

Truth, Justice, and the American Way is not inane, it's idealistic optimism, which is exactly what Superman is...that's why I think it's still appropriate.

BTW- The saying is still used...I just bought a Superman shirt that had it written on the front.

[Malus]

Thank you, Sir. Kal-El was not sent to the United States. He was sent to the planet Earth.

I don't think so.
In Superman Returns, it's apparent that Kal was able to program his Kryptonian vessel to land in Smallville, just within sight of his mother's kitchen window, so it's a pretty sure bet that Jor-El did likewise, aiming baby Kal directly for America's heartland, where he was most likely to receive the type of moral upbringing his parents would have wanted.
Jor-El knew all about Earth, so it only makes sense that he would have purposefully sent Kal to Smallville. And now this movie somewhat confirms it.
But regardless, Kal has chosen to remain an American. He fought the Axis powers and has certainly pledged his allegiance to this Great Nation.
The history of Superman (comics, tv & movies) is filled with American patriotism. There's no getting around that fact.
Kal certainly takes care of the rest of the world.
But he calls America home.

[Jochimus]

But regardless, Kal has chosen to remain an American. He fought the Axis powers and has certainly pledged his allegiance to this Great Nation.

The only problem with that concept is that, in the most clinical sense, Superman IS a weapon of mass destruction. An overgrown Boy Scout he may be, but this particular Boy Scout shoots lasers out his eyes, flies faster than ICBMs and can level skyscrapers with his bare hands like they're made outta toothpicks.

Instead of stockpiling nukes, every country in the world would send Lex's coffers through the roof trying to get their hands on synthetic Kryptonite, even this one: the U.S. government's not going to allow Superman to remain a free man without having some kind of 'special measures' in place. And if you were the leader of a global superpower and all of a sudden some other global superpower had a fully corporeal godlike being at their beck and call, would you take that sitting down? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Superman is an American, but he's also an immigrant and his responsibilies are much larger than allegiance to one country alone. There's a reason why this guy is loved the world over, not just here in the States.

[Malus]

Superman is an American, but he's also an immigrant and his responsibilies are much larger than allegiance to one country alone. There's a reason why this guy is loved the world over, not just here in the States.

Very true. If Superman were real, he'd be mopping up Al Quieda to protect and preserve civilization, just as he did with the filthy Nazis.

And I wouldn't want anyone to think I meant to disparage any civilized Superman-loving nation. It's ideals such as those Superman symbolizes (which are certainly not exclusive to America) that provide our best hope for preserving peace on this planet.

[thechubbysaint]

From the writers:

Dan: "I don't think 'the American way' means what it meant in 1945." Mike: "He's not just for Metropolis and not just for America." Dan: "He's an alien, from Krypton; he has come to Earth to be kind of a savior for this world, not our country . . . And he has no papers." Mike: "What would happen with the immigration laws we have now?" Dan: "I'd like to see someone kick him out!"

http://www.wwtdd.com/index.php?type=one&i=1085

[Andy C.]

Ugh.

The whole "he's an alien so he can't be an American" doesn't hold water. If anything, it further enforces a pro-American sentiment (the ultimate immigrant in a country founded on immigrants) and as I've said before, his upbringing in the American heartland is every bit as important to the development of Clark Kent as anything Jor-El taught him. Overlooking that influence on his life is ignoring one of the basic and vital parts of the character.

And the argument that "The American Way" is worse off now than it was in the days of racial segregation, McCarthyism, censorship, and red scares is flat-out ridiculous.

[Malus]

You know, I'm thinking the chances of a Captain America film coming to theaters anytime in the near future are about zero.

[Jochimus]

You know, I'm thinking the chances of a Captain America film coming to theaters anytime in the near future are about zero.

Captain America would probably work if they stuck the character to the principles that he was raised to believe America was founded on, as opposed to just thawing him out after 75 years and having him say, "Golly, things sure have changed, but I'm still at your command, Uncle Sam!" There's conflict in there that would be an eye-opener to a lot of people where this genre of movie is concerned, and that doesn't even cover the culture shock Steve would probably get from waking up in a time of the Internet, pop music, and the gay rights movement, among other things - what Steve Rogers believes in is not necessarily what his government believes in anymore (evidenced by recent story arcs like Civil War), and how he would deal with that would define what kind of hero he is.

And please don't get me started on whether a Cap movie should be set in WWII or the present day. You can't NOT address the idea of him being displaced for decades. That's too good a story to pass up.

The American way is more than just words. That's why it makes no sense to me to boycott a movie simply because they took the words out of the script; it doesn't change who Superman is to the rest of the world. They know.

[Malus]

And please don't get me started on whether a Cap movie should be set in WWII or the present day. You can't NOT address the idea of him being displaced for decades. That's too good a story to pass up.

Agreed. Setting the first 20 minutes in WWII and then (by whatever means) having Steve wake up in the present would be just about perfect.
I hope that's what they have in mind, if indeed they have anything in mind.

The American way is more than just words. That's why it makes no sense to me to boycott a movie simply because they took the words out of the script; it doesn't change who Superman is to the rest of the world. They know.
:up: :up: I took a group of 6 to see it last night, and I'll see it at least once more. The "American way" omission is a marginal thing, just a sign of the times. And you're right. The rest of the world knows.

[FlameHead]

Wow, I can't believe this conversation is being had.

The line was supposed to be funny.

[Dope Nose]

Wow, I can't believe this conversation is being had.

The line was supposed to be funny.

thank you! that's how I took it as well. Superman stated in the first film that he stood for truth, justice, and the American way, which we can assume made it into Lois' article 'I Spent the night with Superman'. Perry was barking out orders to his staff and couldn't remember the exact quote.

I think you're all reading way too much into it.

[Malus]

Wow, I can't believe this conversation is being had.

The line was supposed to be funny.

Hm. I didn't hear any laughs.
Did anyone else?

Maybe if it was funny, we wouldn't be having this "conversation."

And perhaps if Superman were a Canadian creation, the previous two posters wouldn't find the indignation so insignificant.

[Dope Nose]

And perhaps if Superman were a Canadian creation, the previous two posters wouldn't find the indignation so insignificant.

uh, hate to break it to you but Superman is a Canadian creation, at least in part. Joe Shuster was born in Toronto and the Daily Planet (or Daily Star as it was originally called) was based on The Toronto Star. perhaps you should know what you're talking about before you go spouting off about what we may or may not find insignificant based solely on where we live. ass.

[Malus]

uh, hate to break it to you but Superman is a Canadian creation, at least in part. Joe Shuster was born in Toronto and the Daily Planet (or Daily Star as it was originally called) was based on The Toronto Star. perhaps you should know what you're talking about before you go spouting off about what we may or may not find insignificant based solely on where we live. ass.

Ah, so quick with the name-calling. How classy.:)

Superman was created and published in America by Americans. His character's stories have been almost exclusively set in the United States of America since the very beginning, when he wasn't helping the war effort or in outer space.
Metropolis is not in Canada, inspirations notwithstanding.

If there are any images from Superman's 70 year history that portray him standing majestically before the mapleleaf :rolleyes: I certainly haven't seen them.

Now if Joe Shuster was a Canadian citizen at the time he co-created Superman, that's worth noting, of course.

[Dope Nose]

you're right. I apologize for the name-calling.

Joe Shuster was born in Canada, ergo he was a Canadian citizen. it's possible he had dual citizenship, but the fact remains that Superman was created by both an American and a Canadian, regardless of where it was published. the character himself is an immigrant who's creation was inspired by the writings of a German philosopher.

and yes, while the stories have been mostly set in the States, the fictional city of Metropolis is based on Toronto. this 'Superman belongs to America and no one else' attitude just seems like tunnel vision.

[thechubbysaint]

Conversely, the Superman belongs to the world and 'American' should be stricken from an established slogan is a sick appropriation of a defining character trait.

[Malus]

you're right. I apologize for the name-calling.

Joe Shuster was born in Canada, ergo he was a Canadian citizen. it's possible he had dual citizenship, but the fact remains that Superman was created by both an American and a Canadian, regardless of where it was published. the character himself is an immigrant who's creation was inspired by the writings of a German philosopher.

and yes, while the stories have been mostly set in the States, the fictional city of Metropolis is based on Toronto. this 'Superman belongs to America and no one else' attitude just seems like tunnel vision.

If that's how I was coming off, I apologize. I just thought it was worth noting that 2 Canadians in a row found this fuss about "American way" being left out insignificant. (I was amused, not irritated.) Looking back over the thread, I think most of us Americans are at least a tad irked about the omission of the words, that's all.
It's quite possible that Jerry & Joe intended Metropolis' location to remain vague. I'm not sure when it was ever clarified that Metropolis was in the U.S. And it could very well be that clarification was something imposed by the publisher, sometime before they robbed poor Seigel & Shuster blind.

Personally, when I look at some of the overtly racist images of the Japanese in Captain America & Sub-Mariner comics from WWII, I'm very embarrassed. There may be similar stereotypes to be found in the Superman comics of that day; I really don't know. There's no question that the patriotic stuff was laid on very, very thick in most of the superhero comics of that day, possibly to a fault.

Personally, I consider myself a citizen of the planet first and foremost, and an American by fortunate chance. I would probably consider myself just as fortunate to have been born Canadian. In fact, my family has discussed the possibility of moving to Canada quite often over the years. (Hey, at least you guys have a health system that works from what my Canadian friends have told me.)

So yeah, no offense meant to our friends to the North. None whatsoever.

[Dope Nose]

no apology necessary. I overreacted. I do honestly believe the line was meant in more of a 'yadda, yadda' sense though.

Personally, I consider myself a citizen of the planet first and foremost

"I just wish you could all see the Earth the way that I see it. Because when you really look at it, it's just one world."

[FlameHead]

Hm. I didn't hear any laughs.
Did anyone else?

Maybe if it was funny, we wouldn't be having this "conversation."

And perhaps if Superman were a Canadian creation, the previous two posters wouldn't find the indignation so insignificant.

Hence the word 'supposed'. It's not my fault it didn't work in the particular screening that you seen. You see, things become cliche after a while and to spice things up, a director, or writer will make a choice to pay tribute to said cliche in a whole new way.

I admire the American pride. I really do. I just wish it didn't blind so many of you. You're bringing politics into something that is meant to take you away from all that crap. Movies are entertainment; a way for us to escape the world we live and to take offense to something so silly is crazy, in my honest opinion.

Besides, if you really want to bring politics into things, let's discuss the fact that perhaps Supes doesn't believe in the American way anymore. Perhaps he doesn't believe in creating terror attacks on their own soil in pretext for war. Perhaps he doesn't believe in war at all, which we all know is a major fueling of the American economy. Perhaps he doesn't like the fact that the US has been in some form of war for over sixty years. Perhaps he doesn't admire the war machine that is constantly being fueled by your so called leaders of the free world. Perhaps Supes now believes in Truth, Justice and say... Freedom, which is definitely NOT the American way.

If you want to get into politics, go fight for your freedom which is being gobbled away from you each and every day. If you want to fight for something, stop worrying about Hollywood and go stop those who are ruining your county and taking the world down with it. You're proud people, and again, I really admire that. Unfortunalty, what you once were proud of is no longer part of your society and if you all (WE all) don't do something about it soon, we'll all be in the prison they want us in.

Wow. That was quite the rant... and I'm sure I'll get **** for it but, that's life. If I offend anyone, I'm sorry. I only mean to inspire. Oh, and for the record, no offense taken by your Canadian comments.

[Malus]

Conversely, the Superman belongs to the world and 'American' should be stricken from an established slogan is a sick appropriation of a defining character trait.

Exactly.

perhaps Supes doesn't believe in the American way anymore.
I guess that's why he chose to continue to live here when he returned.:rolleyes:

Perhaps he doesn't believe in creating terror attacks on their own soil in pretext for war.
You state that like it's fact. Is there some secret knowledge you have that you'd like to share with us poor misguided Americans?
I have my own doubts about exactly what happened, but I'm not going to go spouting off in public as if I know.

Freedom, which is definitely NOT the American way.
Not even gonna dignify that one. If anyone else wants to shoot the fish in this barrel, be my guest.

[Dope Nose]

If there are any images from Superman's 70 year history that portray him standing majestically before the mapleleaf :rolleyes: I certainly haven't seen them.

best I could do is our postage stamp.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/75/superman3ay.jpg

[FlameHead]

I guess that's why he chose to continue to live here when he returned.:rolleyes:

Perhaps he realized that it's the place that needs the most help.

You state that like it's fact. Is there some secret knowledge you have that you'd like to share with us poor misguided Americans?
I have my own doubts about exactly what happened, but I'm not going to go spouting off in public as if I know.

I know there's enough facts to disprove any official story that has been fed to us. Plus, I have the right to exercise my opinion anywhere I please and I feel that the more people talk about these very things, the quicker we'll release ourselves from this prison we're all caught in.

Look, I feel bad for ranting here like that. It wasn't the thread to do so. I'm just so frustrated with how we've turned out as a human civilization, how we allowed our civilization to be this way.

I'm not blaming anything on the Americans. In fact, I'm counting on that American pride I'm so impressed with to rise up and fight the very powers that are taking your freedoms every single day. The battle between good and evil is heating up in this world and it's time for the good to wake up and see exactly what the evil is up too.

What is happening has been happening for over 300 years now and it's reaching a critical point here and now. There are bad people in your government. Bad people in the Canadian government and just about every other government that exists. There is a global elite controlling us. There is a New World Order and soon, they'll have the order they want. Unfortunatly for us, it's not going to be pretty.

Sometimes, I really wish there was a Superman. It would make this job of removing the evil from our governing bodies much easier.

[Dope Nose]

Sometimes, I really wish there was a Superman. It would make this job of removing the evil from our governing bodies much easier.

not sure about that - Lex was president for a while and Superman couldn't do jack about it because it was the will of the American people that put him in office.

[Superman79]

Just wanted to share these ;) :

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j230/BoSoxSuperman/Superman14.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j230/BoSoxSuperman/OCT050343.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j230/BoSoxSuperman/i-usasuper.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j230/BoSoxSuperman/Superman.jpg

[Malus]

I know there's enough facts to disprove any official story that has been fed to us....I'm just so frustrated with how we've turned out as a human civilization, how we allowed our civilization to be this way. I'm not blaming anything on the Americans. In fact, I'm counting on that American pride I'm so impressed with to rise up and fight the very powers that are taking your freedoms every single day. The battle between good and evil is heating up in this world and it's time for the good to wake up and see exactly what the evil is up too... What is happening has been happening for over 300 years now and it's reaching a critical point here and now. There are bad people in your government. Bad people in the Canadian government and just about every other government that exists. There is a global elite controlling us. There is a New World Order and soon, they'll have the order they want. Unfortunatly for us, it's not going to be pretty.
Sometimes, I really wish there was a Superman. It would make this job of removing the evil from our governing bodies much easier.

:up: Flamehead, I agree with almost 100% of what you're saying. Thank you for expounding so eloquently about the troubling situation we find ourselves in.
All I have to add is that the ideals and principles of America are still very much alive in the hearts of most of its citizens, even if our nation has been hoodwinked and hijacked by men who do not act and live by those standards.

And we will set things right. I think you're about to see that begin happening in earnest with the autumn elections. And thank God for this technological age we live in. While it may aid the jackals at times, it will also serve to expose them and help bring about their undoing.
The world is getting smaller every day; thousands of pictures speaking millions of words. Evil is not so easily swept under the rug.

There is evil to root out and extinguish in the world, but we must take care not to embrace the darkness ourselves as we do what must be done to preserve civilization.
Our grandparents (or great grandparents, depending on your age) literally saved civilization just six decades ago from a still unfathomable evil. We must ensure that their sacrifices weren't in vain.

And yeah. A real Superman would sure come in handy right about now.

[thechubbysaint]

Another article (from Drudge):
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/columns/film_reporter_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=100276463 5

Canada is still apart of the N. American Continent. They should be on this indignation bandwagon.

[thechubbysaint]

:up: Flamehead, I agree with almost 100% of what you're saying. Thank you for expounding so eloquently about the troubling situation we find ourselves in.
All I have to add is that the ideals and principles of America are still very much alive in the hearts of most of its citizens, even if our nation has been hoodwinked and hijacked by men who do not act and live by those standards.

And we will set things right. I think you're about to see that begin happening in earnest with the autumn elections. And thank God for this technological age we live in. While it may aid the jackals at times, it will also serve to expose them and help bring about their undoing.
The world is getting smaller every day; thousands of pictures speaking millions of words. Evil is not so easily swept under the rug.

There is evil to root out and extinguish in the world, but we must take care not to embrace the darkness ourselves as we do what must be done to preserve civilization.
Our grandparents (or great grandparents, depending on your age) literally saved civilization just six decades ago from a still unfathomable evil. We must ensure that their sacrifices weren't in vain.

And yeah. A real Superman would sure come in handy right about now.

Freedom has never been stronger, and the American population has never been more protected from evil (I mean domestically, bear with me on this one).

The mere fact that we have open debate and harsh regulation of different forms of discrimination is a major sign that we are more free (especially in the past 40 years).

Free speech has had a major boon with the advent of the internet. Thank the great American, Al gore, and the American military for that one.

There seems to be more evil in this country, but it is just more publicized. The press is as free as it ever was ( almost too free, see NYT). The national press can do alot of good when it comes to bulletins on criminals. It seems like there are lot out there, but this publicity and national databases has helped hinder their blending into society.

If this Iraq and Afghanistan conflict can succeed, the men you currently demonize would have brought freedom to 35-50 million people and stared down evil that perpertrated some of the worst atrocities ever.

[Malus]

Freedom has never been stronger, and the American population has never been more protected from evil (I mean domestically, bear with me on this one).

The mere fact that we have open debate and harsh regulation of different forms of discrimination is a major sign that we are more free (especially in the past 40 years).

Free speech has had a major boon with the advent of the internet. Thank the great American, Al gore, and the American military for that one.

There seems to be more evil in this country, but it is just more publicized. The press is as free as it ever was ( almost too free, see NYT). The national press can do alot of good when it comes to bulletins on criminals. It seems like there are lot out there, but this publicity and national databases has helped hinder their blending into society.

If this Iraq and Afghanistan conflict can succeed, the men you currently demonize would have brought freedom to 35-50 million people and stared down evil that perpertrated some of the worst atrocities ever.

I sincerely hope you are right.

But I wouldn't say I'm "demonizing" anyone. I do think we've seen a lot of dishonesty and corruption in our government recently, but again, that's nothing new. And there's no question the light of public attention and scrutiny is extra bright right now.

And I'm definitely with you on the treasonous actions of the NY Times. There should be a price to pay. Their little expose may have indirectly cost hundreds, even thousands of lives. And not just American lives, but the lives of our friends and allies as well.

[Dope Nose]

Freedom has never been stronger, and the American population has never been more protected from evil (I mean domestically, bear with me on this one).

you don't seriously believe that, do you? I suppose if you define freedom as unconstitutional wire tapping and data mining...

And I'm definitely with you on the treasonous actions of the NY Times. There should be a price to pay.

like the price Carl Rove had to pay for leaking the identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame? oh, wait...

[Malus]

like the price Carl Rove had to pay for leaking the identity of CIA operative Valerie Plame?

YES. Exactly. He should never have gotten a pass on that. It's beyond shameful.
The problem is a lot more complex than just a corrupt administration. A mostly liberal-biased media, an inexplicably popular right-wing propaganda machine (Fox news) and a large portion of society that is sadly apathetic...All of these are playing a part in the American identity crisis.

[Malus]

Well folks, there's no longer any question that the screenwriters intentionally omitted the phrase. It's on the front page of the Drudge Report right now (Friday June 30th)...http://www.drudgereport.com/
June 30, 2006


Superman eschews longtime patriot act

By Tatiana Siegel (columns@hollywoodreporter.com)

Nevermind Superman's sexual orientation. Here's another identity-related question that is likely to spark controversy as the Man of Steel soars into theaters nationwide this Fourth of July weekend in Warner Bros. Pictures' "Superman Returns": Is Superman still American?

Ever since artist Joe Shuster and writer Jerry Siegel created the granddaddy of all comic book icons in 1932, Superman has fought valiantly to preserve "truth, justice and the American way." Whether kicking Nazi ass on the radio in the '40s or wrapping himself in the Stars and Stripes on TV during the Cold War or even rescuing the White House's flag as his final feat in "Superman II," the Krypton-born, Smallville-raised Ubermensch always has been steeped in unmistakable U.S. symbolism.

But in the latest film incarnation, scribes Michael Dougherty and Dan Harris sought to downplay Superman's long-standing patriot act. With one brief line uttered by actor Frank Langella, the caped superhero's mission transformed from "truth, justice and the American way" to "truth, justice and all that stuff."

"The world has changed. The world is a different place," Pennsylvania native Harris says. "The truth is he's an alien. He was sent from another planet. He has landed on the planet Earth, and he is here for everybody. He's an international superhero."

In fact, Dougherty and Harris never even considered including "the American way" in their screenplay. After the wunderkind writing duo ("X2: X-Men United") conceived "Superman's" story with director Bryan Singer during a Hawaiian vacation, they penned their first draft together and intentionally omitted what they considered to be a loaded and antiquated expression. That decision stood throughout the 140-day shoot in Australia, where the pair remained on-set to provide revisions and tweaks.

"We were always hesitant to include the term 'American way' because the meaning of that today is somewhat uncertain," Ohio native Dougherty explains. "The ideal hasn't changed. I think when people say 'American way,' they're actually talking about what the 'American way' meant back in the '40s and '50s, which was something more noble and idealistic."

While audiences in Dubuque might bristle at Superman's newfound global agenda, patrons in Dubai likely will find the DC Comics protagonist more palatable. And with the increasing importance of the overseas boxoffice -- as evidenced by summer tentpoles like "The Da Vinci Code" -- foreign sensibilities can no longer be ignored.

"So, you play the movie in a foreign country, and you say, 'What does he stand for? -- truth, justice and the American way.' I think a lot of people's opinions of what the American way means outside of this country are different from what the line actually means (in Superman lore) because they are not the same anymore," Harris says. "And (using that line) would taint the meaning of what he is saying."

But for Superman purists looking for a nod to the big blue Boy Scout's nationalistic loyalties, he is still saving Americans, albeit many with suspiciously Aussie accents. He foils Lex Luthor's nefarious plan to send millions from the nation's heartland to a watery death. And in his most impressive scene, the hero saves the day while a plane hurtles toward a baseball stadium full of fans enjoying America's pastime. Although there is no indication that it is an American baseball game depicted, the scene was one of the few shot on U.S. soil, at Dodger Stadium.

Nevertheless, the long-standing member of the Justice League of America seems to have traded in his allegiance to the flag for an international passport.

"He's here for humanity," Dougherty says..

[atomicbattery]

Superman has not, in fact, fought for 'truth, justice and the American way' since his creation. The character had been in print for nearly five years when the phrase was first uttered on the radio show in late 1942. It was retired by 1944, and was reintroduced in 1952 in 'The Adventures of Superman' television series. In the Fleischer cartoons ('41-'43) he fought 'a never-ending battle for truth and justice'. In the first live-action serial (1948) he fought for 'truth, tolerance, and justice' (imagine the uproar if they had brought that word back).

In fact, if you want to really go back to the creation of Superman, the character was generally battling crooked industrialists, financiers and landlords in the late '30's. In Action Comics #8, he attempts to level a slum in order to force the government to build decent, affordable housing for the poor, and is promptly attacked by the National Guard. That's the hero created by Siegel and Shuster.

Guess that makes Supes a bleeding-heart leftist anti-capitalist radical.

[thechubbysaint]

you don't seriously believe that, do you? I suppose if you define freedom as unconstitutional wire tapping and data mining...


Dope, I suggest you look at what other Presidents have doen in the past wars. Especially the great ones like Lincoln and Roosevelt.

Yeah, the wire taps were constitutional as well as the data mining(at least the most recent one).

[LostSon88]

Superman has not, in fact, fought for 'truth, justice and the American way' since his creation. The character had been in print for nearly five years when the phrase was first uttered on the radio show in late 1942. It was retired by 1944, and was reintroduced in 1952 in 'The Adventures of Superman' television series. In the Fleischer cartoons ('41-'43) he fought 'a never-ending battle for truth and justice'. In the first live-action serial (1948) he fought for 'truth, tolerance, and justice' (imagine the uproar if they had brought that word back).

In fact, if you want to really go back to the creation of Superman, the character was generally battling crooked industrialists, financiers and landlords in the late '30's. In Action Comics #8, he attempts to level a slum in order to force the government to build decent, affordable housing for the poor, and is promptly attacked by the National Guard. That's the hero created by Siegel and Shuster.

Guess that makes Supes a bleeding-heart leftist anti-capitalist radical.

I guess so...;)

Good info. :up:

[Superman79]

Lets not forget that S and S chose the red, blue and yellow to symbolize America (white wouldn't work).

As far as fighting for truth justice and the American way since his creation...you could argue that HE DID do that even in your examples. America has always been about opportunity and chance for the little guy (don't believe me ask the millions of immigrants throughtout the decades). Superman was standing for the little guy, which despite the 90's-now, America has symbolized that standing.

[Mr. Socko]

I understand completely what they're doing. But "all that stuff" just isn't as catchy as "The American Way". They should have just left the line out.

[AmericanMade]

What everyone seems to be missing is that regardless of Supermans orientation, the writers made a resounding choice. I believe it's strictly a business decision. They chose to placate to anti-american sentiment, prevalent outside the U.S. In doing so they did more than risk a backlash such as a boycott. They basically said that many Americans would ignore the slight and go see the movie, and the income lost from those that took a stand and didn't would be made up overseas. They chose not to risk insulting the international community, and instead risked insulting many Americans. A risk that may ultimatley pay off for them, but not with any of my money! ( I will go shopping for a Bootleg now though)

I wonder if all the people that are downplaying this intentional act, on this forum, would be doing the same if some Frenchman complained and threatened boycotts if the original line was left in. I suggest they would probably side with Frenchy since the world is such a terrible a place since the U.S.A is in it. BooHoo poor Europe.

To the Canadian: Take a look at Mexico. If it wasn't for the U.S. being the most prosperous nation in history during the 20th century, you would be putting skis on your donkey instead of sitting up there comfortably protected, and with good doctors only a quick plane ride away. Now that the coat tails are not so long or pretty you guys wanna jump off. Thanks neighbor.

[Dope Nose]

Dope, I suggest you look at what other Presidents have doen in the past wars. Especially the great ones like Lincoln and Roosevelt.

here's the difference - neither Lincoln or Roosevelt started those wars, unlike your current president.

[Dope Nose]

What everyone seems to be missing is that regardless of Supermans orientation, the writers made a resounding choice. I believe it's strictly a business decision. They chose to placate to anti-american sentiment, prevalent outside the U.S. In doing so they did more than risk a backlash such as a boycott. They basically said that many Americans would ignore the slight and go see the movie, and the income lost from those that took a stand and didn't would be made up overseas. They chose not to risk insulting the international community, and instead risked insulting many Americans. A risk that may ultimatley pay off for them, but not with any of my money! ( I will go shopping for a Bootleg now though)

I'd say anti-american sentiment is just as prevalent in your own country, given Bush's current approval rating. sorry, but anyone who thinks they're 'taking a stand' by not seeing the movie, a fictional movie at that, due to a simple piece of dialogue is an idiot.

To the Canadian: Take a look at Mexico. If it wasn't for the U.S. being the most prosperous nation in history during the 20th century, you would be putting skis on your donkey instead of sitting up there comfortably protected, and with good doctors only a quick plane ride away. Now that the coat tails are not so long or pretty you guys wanna jump off. Thanks neighbor.

you're evidently a moron. have you ever been to Canada? FYI, it's not blanketed in snow. guess they don't cover that in whatever school system bred the ignorance you're preaching. you think we owe you? we invented insulin, the bone marrow compatibility test, the pacemaker, radio-transmitted voice, time zones, the telephone. Henry Woodward of Toronto invented the light bulb before selling the patent to Edison. you actually believe that you'd be "the most prosperous nation in history during the 20th century" without us? better yet, you actually think we feel comfortably protected now that you've turned the entire planet against you? both you and your country need to get over yourselves.

[thechubbysaint]

here's the difference - neither Lincoln or Roosevelt started those wars, unlike your current president.

Considering our current conflict is a technical continuation of the kuwait invasion under the UN resolutions, you have no case to say GW 'started it.'

[Jack Napier]

I don't think it was deliberate, like they had to skirt around the line. But all the derring do's of saving lives take place in America in this movie.

You know what really made me laugh? Superman drinking a beer. I never thought he'd kick back and have one. :up:

[AmericanMade]

One of the freedoms we enjoy here is freedom of choice. You may deem it "idiotic" but if someone makes a decision to market based mostly on my ability to choose to support it, I will do exactly that and choose. I will leave the blind
following to you.

And hey, I think Canada has made a great contribution to civilized society! And I have been there several times and discovered that most of the people are great, with the exception of the ones in Quebec who think they are better than the rest of the world because they speak French. I know deep down you realize that most of those accomplishments you speak of, accurate or not probably would'nt have occured had America not advanced or even introduced the agricultural/Industrial/technology revolution to the continent. The fact that Canada was able to contribute had more to do with it's American Influence than anything else. Had we not established ourselves as a world power and thereby securing the hemisphere, you'd be typing in Russian or worse yet French. Deal with it and get over the little sister identity crisis you're obviously dealing with. I am glad to see a majority of your countrymen see the reality of a positive reltionship with us, and haven't forgotten what enabled your people to concentrate on things that you alledge they invented. There's something to be said about loyalty through thick and thin. Through all our faults I prefer the "American Way" to that of , hmm, lets say Saddam or Putin, Kim, Jintao or even Cherac. Ask yourself one simple question: Is the world as a whole a better place because of the American Way or not? Don't be afraid of the worlds opinion of the U.S. Should danger come a knockin on your Maple doors, we will be there so you guys can work on the next big invention or get to hockey practice.

Regarding your name calling, this is the internet. I am not going to be bothered by someone who sits by his keyboard sheltered in what's probably his closet, guarded by his (ironically) G.I. Joe dolls and wearing his superman cape. Feel free to name call me whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Even go tell your mom you shouted down a big American Bully if it helps. I am most certain that had we had this discussion in person you would refrain from such an approach.

[Dope Nose]

Considering our current conflict is a technical continuation of the kuwait invasion under the UN resolutions, you have no case to say GW 'started it.'

how can you possibly consider the current war as a continuation of the UN Security Council sanctioned attack on Kuwait when it violates international law and lacks UN authorization?

GW, as you refer to him, is a war criminal and nothing but.

[Dope Nose]

One of the freedoms we enjoy here is freedom of choice. You may deem it "idiotic" but if someone makes a decision to market based mostly on my ability to choose to support it, I will do exactly that and choose. I will leave the blind following to you.

I love that you're arguing freedom of choice while chastising Singer & co. for choosing to leave out a piece of dialogue mentioning your country.

And hey, I think Canada has made a great contribution to civilized society! And I have been there several times and discovered that most of t[he people are great, with the exception of the ones in Quebec who think they are better than the rest of the world because they speak French.

and the stereotypes continue. beginning to see why I called you ignorant?

I know deep down you realize that most of those accomplishments you speak of, accurate or not probably would'nt have occured had America not advanced or even introduced the agricultural/Industrial/technology revolution to the continent.

given the Industrial revolution begain in Britain, yeah I do. here's some news for you - America is not the cradle of civilization despite what you may think, so why not climb off your knees and give your mouth a wipe? doubt the accuracy of our accomplishments? why not do some research instead of burying your head in the sand?

The fact that Canada was able to contribute had more to do with it's American Influence than anything else. Had we not established ourselves as a world power and thereby securing the hemisphere, you'd be typing in Russian or worse yet French.

do you honestly believe that America rose to it's current position on it's own? that we had no role in the major conflicts that shaped your country? how's that tunnel vision working out for you?

Deal with it and get over the little sister identity crisis you're obviously dealing with. I am glad to see a majority of your countrymen see the reality of a positive reltionship with us, and haven't forgotten what enabled your people to concentrate on things that you alledge they invented. There's something to be said about loyalty through thick and thin. Through all our faults I prefer the "American Way" to that of , hmm, lets say Saddam or Putin, Kim, Jintao or even Cherac.

I suppose it's easier to toss around the word "alleged" rather than acknowledge facts. by "American Way" do you mean misusing economic and political influence to wage unlawful wars on Vietnam & Iraq? read up on the My Lai massacre and then preach about "loyalty through thick and thin". or better yet Nuremburg.

Ask yourself one simple question: Is the world as a whole a better place because of the American Way or not? Don't be afraid of the worlds opinion of the U.S. Should danger come a knockin on your Maple doors, we will be there so you guys can work on the next big invention or get to hockey practice.

love your stereotypes, don't you? though I guess you'd probably define them as justifiable racial profiling.

Regarding your name calling, this is the internet. I am not going to be bothered by someone who sits by his keyboard sheltered in what's probably his closet, guarded by his (ironically) G.I. Joe dolls and wearing his superman cape. Feel free to name call me whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Even go tell your mom you shouted down a big American Bully if it helps. I am most certain that had we had this discussion in person you would refrain from such an approach.

American bully - finally something we can agree on. regarding the name calling, I prefer to think of them as astute observations of your character.

[AmericanMade]

First of all I acknowledged their choice. and I have made mine as a consequence. Secondly, as far as the stereotype, I knew I would get you on that since it was a recount of something told to me by a Canadian doctor (who made no money by the way) I met in Toronto at about the time Quebec was considering succession. You're from Toronto right?

In referencing the industrial revolution I said THIS continent, so it seems your head is also buried, but apparently not in the sand but closer to your coin purse.

I do acknowledge facts and even pointed out that we are an imperfect nation, however given the alternatives I'll take the American Way and so would most Canadians although they hate to admit it.

I'll concede Canada is a great country with some great people, you notwithstanding, and their accomplishments should be recognized. It is however inconceivable to me that you actually believe that Canada had more than a supporting role in the advancement of North America as an economic, technologic, democratic region? You sound more and more foolish spouting off your knowledge of feats and events, while ignoring the reality. Your jealousy motivated conjecture is symptomatic of the greater issue. The issue where America is subject to random vilification in spite of itself. If we isolate ourselves we're selfish, interfere we are bullys. Imagine a disaster or disease that we don't address. "Where are the Americans?" would be heard in every corner of the globe. South Korea has a nuke that can reach B.C.? Sure hope the USA can stop it for us. A nuclear Iran? I'm sure not in Canadas best interest but where are they on the international stage trying to stop it? Oh wait the U.S has our backs on this. Let them get dirty on our behalf again then we can point our squeaky clean fingers at them. I guess we should be the only country that doesn't look out for it's own interests first. Shame on us. God forbid we make a Timber regulation or environmental law that doesn't serve Canadas interest. The same rules don't apply to us. Why?

Like I said, face it little sister, you can cite all the contributions you want but we are the big kid on the block so get used to it and stop your whinin'. You can keep your Canadian way, and all the other stuff I'll ski in Colorado. Try being more like Australia. No inferiority complex, can defend itself, and has strong values and loyalty.

If I thought you had an astute bone in your body (no his doesn't count) I might be offended.

Oh yeah since you brought it up and only because you brought it up, I will get off my knees and wipe my mouth, but you need to wait cuz your Mom paid for the whole hour.

Goodnite eh hoser.

[thechubbysaint]

how can you possibly consider the current war as a continuation of the UN Security Council sanctioned attack on Kuwait when it violates international law and lacks UN authorization?

GW, as you refer to him, is a war criminal and nothing but.

The first Gulf War ended with a cease-fire agreement drafted by the UN. After Saddam failed to comply with that agreement and the UN was impotent to uphold the cease-fire agreement, the Congress voted to allow Bush to enforce the cease-fire agreement. Thus the cease-fire was violated, negotiations broke down, and a few members of the original coalition decided to enforce the cease fire already forged with their own soldier's blood. The UN and International law was a corrupt joke because it failed us by not enforcing an agreement our soldier's fought and died for in Gulf War I.

[Spider-Bite]

SuperMan is an alien. He is an alien. Nonetheless he is an illegal alien. If aliens came here they would really look at us as all the same. violent, stupid, mytholigcal.

SuperMan isn't even america, and it's kind of conceited to assume he's going to be all about the american way. The current american way would be to label him him a felon and ship him to mexico.

[FlameHead]

First of all I acknowledged their choice. and I have made mine as a consequence. Secondly, as far as the stereotype, I knew I would get you on that since it was a recount of something told to me by a Canadian doctor (who made no money by the way) I met in Toronto at about the time Quebec was considering succession. You're from Toronto right?

In referencing the industrial revolution I said THIS continent, so it seems your head is also buried, but apparently not in the sand but closer to your coin purse.

I do acknowledge facts and even pointed out that we are an imperfect nation, however given the alternatives I'll take the American Way and so would most Canadians although they hate to admit it.

I'll concede Canada is a great country with some great people, you notwithstanding, and their accomplishments should be recognized. It is however inconceivable to me that you actually believe that Canada had more than a supporting role in the advancement of North America as an economic, technologic, democratic region? You sound more and more foolish spouting off your knowledge of feats and events, while ignoring the reality. Your jealousy motivated conjecture is symptomatic of the greater issue. The issue where America is subject to random vilification in spite of itself. If we isolate ourselves we're selfish, interfere we are bullys. Imagine a disaster or disease that we don't address. "Where are the Americans?" would be heard in every corner of the globe. South Korea has a nuke that can reach B.C.? Sure hope the USA can stop it for us. A nuclear Iran? I'm sure not in Canadas best interest but where are they on the international stage trying to stop it? Oh wait the U.S has our backs on this. Let them get dirty on our behalf again then we can point our squeaky clean fingers at them. I guess we should be the only country that doesn't look out for it's own interests first. Shame on us. God forbid we make a Timber regulation or environmental law that doesn't serve Canadas interest. The same rules don't apply to us. Why?

Like I said, face it little sister, you can cite all the contributions you want but we are the big kid on the block so get used to it and stop your whinin'. You can keep your Canadian way, and all the other stuff I'll ski in Colorado. Try being more like Australia. No inferiority complex, can defend itself, and has strong values and loyalty.

If I thought you had an astute bone in your body (no his doesn't count) I might be offended.

Oh yeah since you brought it up and only because you brought it up, I will get off my knees and wipe my mouth, but you need to wait cuz your Mom paid for the whole hour.

Goodnite eh hoser.

Without Canada's resources, which America has been gouging from us for years, the US would not have been able to survive this long. Now, they want our oil, water and land too.

The probelm with a lot of Americans is that they think they've created, sustained and are the future of the world... when things could not be any furhter from the truth.

[Spider-Bite]

I think an alien being on earth would be more on an international affair reather than american. aliens being here would probably unite us in such a way there is no american way, just a human way. we would be united. we would join togethera nd realize we aren't so different from each other.

to have SuperMan defend "the american way" is nothing but a slap in the face to the fine tradition that is Sci-Fi.

[thechubbysaint]

Actually, supes is adopted by the Kents. That makes him 100% American. It is basic immigration law.

[Spider-Bite]

I'm not so sure about that. if you want to adopt a child you can't just go out grab a kid and adopt them.

[AmericanMade]

Without Canada's resources, which America has been gouging from us for years, the US would not have been able to survive this long. Now, they want our oil, water and land too.

Yeah we you YOU our survival! The last international impact you had was losing the stanley cup again to an American city.

The probelm with a lot of Americans is that they think they've created, sustained and are the future of the world... when things could not be any furhter from the truth.

Never said that. Just said the American way is a better option than the others available in the present or recent century or two. Seems you guys up north have followed in our footsteps pretty closely and done pretty well doing so.

Seems nobody is answering the question regarding what way they would choose other than the American way as it relates to hope, opportunity and freedom. Alot of judgement going on but no real statement.

I also would never be suggesting they add a line like that if it was never there in the first place, but since it was, to alter it favoring francs over dollars is somewhat offensive to me. Enough so, where I will choose to spend my entertainment dollar elsewhere. If people think that idiotic or snobby then maybe they don't get to make too many choices for themslelves.

[FlameHead]

Never said that. Just said the American way is a better option than the others available in the present or recent century or two. Seems you guys up north have followed in our footsteps pretty closely and done pretty well doing so.

Seems nobody is answering the question regarding what way they would choose other than the American way as it relates to hope, opportunity and freedom. Alot of judgement going on but no real statement.

I also would never be suggesting they add a line like that if it was never there in the first place, but since it was, to alter it favoring francs over dollars is somewhat offensive to me. Enough so, where I will choose to spend my entertainment dollar elsewhere. If people think that idiotic or snobby then maybe they don't get to make too many choices for themslelves.

The American way is a better option than others available? Wow, you really are blinded by your pride. Or just dense.

What exactly is this American way that you speak of that's so much better? Is the the stripping of all your freedoms in the sake of security... security from the very forces created by the American government, at that. Or, is the constant fueling of the war machine to progress your economy. We all know the states escaped the depression because of World War II. Or, maybe it's the find a resource, call the leader a dictator, kill the leader, take the resource way that America has. Or maybe it's your heath care system? Wait, you don't have one.

Canada has not followed in America's footsteps in any way. Our war attitude is different; you know peacekeeping instead of total destruction of everything. We have more culture and heritage than you can ever dream about having in the states and we have a health care system that works. Not only that, we don't believe in eating up every single resource we have just to go and take everyone elses.

Having said that, Canada, unfortunatly, is beginning to move towards the American way since Mr. Idiot Harper has taken over. Seems he fancies this American way you speak of an everyday he's stripping a little piece of what makes Canada so great away.

Either way, the line is just a line and it's in a movie that means nothing.

[thechubbysaint]

The American way is a better option than others available? Wow, you really are blinded by your pride. Or just dense.

What exactly is this American way that you speak of that's so much better? Is the the stripping of all your freedoms in the sake of security... security from the very forces created by the American government, at that. Or, is the constant fueling of the war machine to progress your economy. We all know the states escaped the depression because of World War II. Or, maybe it's the find a resource, call the leader a dictator, kill the leader, take the resource way that America has. Or maybe it's your heath care system? Wait, you don't have one.

Canada has not followed in America's footsteps in any way. Our war attitude is different; you know peacekeeping instead of total destruction of everything. We have more culture and heritage than you can ever dream about having in the states and we have a health care system that works. Not only that, we don't believe in eating up every single resource we have just to go and take everyone elses.

Having said that, Canada, unfortunatly, is beginning to move towards the American way since Mr. Idiot Harper has taken over. Seems he fancies this American way you speak of an everyday he's stripping a little piece of what makes Canada so great away.

Either way, the line is just a line and it's in a movie that means nothing.


Funny, Canada basically gets a pass on major defense spending because they have America. Congrats on the extra money you can spend on healthcare. What peacekeeping have you guys done? Dafur, Somalia, and Kosovo are still messed up. Seems like the UN peacekeepers are all talk.

As for culture and heritage, you are kidding right?

We don't take other people's resources, we pay for them. If you want to see real imperialism, I suggest you look at 18th-20th century France and Britain.

[Dope Nose]

The UN and International law was a corrupt joke because it failed us by not enforcing an agreement our soldier's fought and died for in Gulf War I.

do you honestly think American soldiers were the only casualties? do you actually believe your country has the right to pick and choose when to adhere to the UN and international law?

[thechubbysaint]

I never said we had the only casualties.

I am saying that since we had men die for that cease fire, we had the right to go back in when the corrupt UN would just let Saddam slide. Sanctions have never been really effective, and all they do is punish the civilians in that country. (See oil for food scandal)

As for international law, that is a myth. Do some homework.

[FlameHead]

Funny, Canada basically gets a pass on major defense spending because they have America. Congrats on the extra money you can spend on healthcare. What peacekeeping have you guys done? Dafur, Somalia, and Kosovo are still messed up. Seems like the UN peacekeepers are all talk.

As for culture and heritage, you are kidding right?

We don't take other people's resources, we pay for them. If you want to see real imperialism, I suggest you look at 18th-20th century France and Britain.

Just because you can't look past your own borders to see what other cultures are about doesn't mean they aren't cultural.

We peacekeep by not attacking. We go to places that are in war and work to resolve the war. We do not, like our southern friends, find targers and destroy them. We do not intentionally kill hundreds of thousands of civilians. We do not create false wars to keep the war machine fueled. And the worst part is, this false war in Afganistan is now being fought primarily by Canadians, against most of our populations wishes.

You pay for resources? Now that's freakin' funny. You didn't pay for the oil in the middle east. You didn't pay for the heroin in Afganistan (which, by the way, you should know that poppy production has gone up over 60% since the invasion. Why? Because your goverenment controls the drugs too). You didn't pay for the softwood lumber from Canada for many years either... until very recently where a deal was finally struck. Even then, you're getting away with over a billion dollars worth of wood for free.

The American way, as it appears to me, is to bully people out of what's theirs and scare the **** out of it's own people so that nobody argues. Makin' a wonder Superman doesn't stand for that anymore.

[thechubbysaint]

Just because you can't look past your own borders to see what other cultures are about doesn't mean they aren't cultural.

We peacekeep by not attacking. We go to places that are in war and work to resolve the war. We do not, like our southern friends, find targers and destroy them. We do not intentionally kill hundreds of thousands of civilians. We do not create false wars to keep the war machine fueled. And the worst part is, this false war in Afganistan is now being fought primarily by Canadians, against most of our populations wishes.

You pay for resources? Now that's freakin' funny. You didn't pay for the oil in the middle east. You didn't pay for the heroin in Afganistan (which, by the way, you should know that poppy production has gone up over 60% since the invasion. Why? Because your goverenment controls the drugs too). You didn't pay for the softwood lumber from Canada for many years either... until very recently where a deal was finally struck. Even then, you're getting away with over a billion dollars worth of wood for free.

The American way, as it appears to me, is to bully people out of what's theirs and scare the **** out of it's own people so that nobody argues. Makin' a wonder Superman doesn't stand for that anymore.

Wanna talk about cultural acceptance, just travel to some major U.S cities and you will see diversity.

South Florida and New York probably has more diversity than all of Canada.

Please list some peacekeeping successes you had?

Nice conspiracy theories on drugs and other 'stolen resources.'

[Dope Nose]

First of all I acknowledged their choice. and I have made mine as a consequence. Secondly, as far as the stereotype, I knew I would get you on that since it was a recount of something told to me by a Canadian doctor (who made no money by the way) I met in Toronto at about the time Quebec was considering succession. You're from Toronto right?

what exactly do you think you're going to accomplish by boycotting the film? the only thing you're affecting is the chance at a sequel which I can't understand anyone on this board being in favor of. do you feel you're supporting your country in any way by purchasing a bootleg? and yeah, I'm from Toronto. why that would mean that we all share the same opinion is beyond me. why you would feel it justifies you spewing stereotypes at every turn is too. you accuse me of "blind following" and yet you've formed a prejudicial opinion of an entire group of people based on someone's ignorant comment, regardless of where it originated. I'd hate to hear your thoughts on black or Jewish people.

In referencing the industrial revolution I said THIS continent, so it seems your head is also buried, but apparently not in the sand but closer to your coin purse.

actually what you said was that America introduced the industrial revolution to this continent, which again, isn't true given it began in Britain and spread to the rest of the world. how could America have introduced it when it was previously established in the Commonwealth?

I do acknowledge facts and even pointed out that we are an imperfect nation, however given the alternatives I'll take the American Way and so would most Canadians although they hate to admit it.

so now you're speaking for most Canadians? seriously, take a step back for a moment and try to understand that not everyone shares your views. why you feel you can speak for an entire nation, let alone a seperate nation from your own is just ridiculous. it's as if you're incapable of expressing any coherent thought without resorting to generalities. you claim to acknowledge facts? I find that difficult to believe given you questioned the accuracy of the Canadian accomplishments I had listed, preferring to call them "alleged".

I'll concede Canada is a great country with some great people, you notwithstanding, and their accomplishments should be recognized. It is however inconceivable to me that you actually believe that Canada had more than a supporting role in the advancement of North America as an economic, technologic, democratic region?

hate to break it to you, but democracy existed long before you, and your country is just as dependant on our economy as we are on yours.

You sound more and more foolish spouting off your knowledge of feats and events, while ignoring the reality. Your jealousy motivated conjecture is symptomatic of the greater issue. The issue where America is subject to random vilification in spite of itself.

better that I spout off stereotypes? and sorry, random vilification? I get the feeling the people of Hiroshima would feel different. evidently the people of Iraq do too, or have you forgotten that you weren't exactly greeted as "liberators", despite Rumsfeld's claims. how about those held in Guantanamo without trial, regardless of their innocence? or anyone involved in the Watts race riots? members of the First Nations? any vilification has been well deserved.

Oh yeah since you brought it up and only because you brought it up, I will get off my knees and wipe my mouth, but you need to wait cuz your Mom paid for the whole hour.

guess this explains why she's suddenly into women.

[Spider-Bite]

geez guys. what's with all this prejudice towards canadians and americans? and for those prejudiced against americans, you have to remember only about half the country elected Bush. and now half of them regret it.

god I swear that man is giving us all a bad name across the world.

[thechubbysaint]

Didn't mean to come off prejudice against Canadians, don't even remember getting off on that argument track to be honest.

[Dope Nose]

I never said we had the only casualties.

I am saying that since we had men die for that cease fire, we had the right to go back in when the corrupt UN would just let Saddam slide. Sanctions have never been really effective, and all they do is punish the civilians in that country. (See oil for food scandal)

As for international law, that is a myth. Do some homework.

you do realize you're part of the UN, right? 41 other countries are corrupt, and yours is what? the shining beacon of morality?

let Saddam slide on what, exactly? WMDs? ties to al Qaeda?

[Malus]

I think an alien being on earth would be more on an international affair reather than american.....to have SuperMan defend "the american way" is nothing but a slap in the face to the fine tradition that is Sci-Fi.

The problem is that Superman is not about what you or I think.
The character's long-established national allegiance is unquestionably to these United States of America. It runs through so much of the material in the thirties, forties and fifties that it's just a joke to even suggest otherwise.
How often has Superman posed with the flag of any other nation? I'd like to see just one DC-published example of Kal-El posing with the flag of any nation other than the U.S.A.
Nothing can change that.
The politics of the moment are just that. But the fundamental ideals of America that Superman has always represented...Those are non-negotiable and etched in stone, no matter how many unqualified cretins occupy the Presidency, be they war-mongering coke fiend or sexually compulsive misogynist.
But Superman...He's better than all of them. He's morally superior to any man who has ever occupied the Oval Office. It's just too bad he's fictional.
But still, he represents the true American ideal, and...we're gonna let him keep his American citizen status for now. If that's okay with the rest of you.;)

Yes, he's proud to be one of us, but he helps mankind out pretty equally.
Or does he? By choosing to live in the U.S., isn't he in effect giving her citizens preferential treatment? I mean, the closer a situation is, the quicker response time he can give...the more lives he can save.
That's sort of an unpleasant truth, even to me.

As for the notion that he stays here because this is the place on Earth that needs the most help... Please. We all know Seigel & Shuster certainly wouldn't say that.

In a strange way, this whole "superman belongs to the world" debate reminds me of a shool teacher who was a customer at the comics shop I used to own back in the 90's. He came in one day and bought some "Tick" comics for reference for a mural he was doing for his class, who all reportedly loved the Tick cartoon that was on Fox Saturday mornings back then. He came in a week or so later to show me photographs of the finished mural and his classroom. In the mural, the Tick, who is as Caucasian as Captain Crunch or Santa Claus, appeared as a very black man. For a moment I was a bit bothered, I even felt some indignation on behalf of Ben Edlund, the Tick's creator... but I couldn't say anything, especially after seeing the picture with three grinning African-American second-graders posing proudly next to their hero.

Listen, there's plenty Superman to go around, okay?
But the fact is, he's as American as comic books, Mickey Mouse, Elvis Presley, Apple Pie and the fireworks we'll be watching this Tuesday night on Our birthday. :)
(And yes, I know we didn't invent Apple pie or fireworks.)

[FlameHead]

Wanna talk about cultural acceptance, just travel to some major U.S cities and you will see diversity.

South Florida and New York probably has more diversity than all of Canada.

Please list some peacekeeping successes you had?

Nice conspiracy theories on drugs and other 'stolen resources.'

Peacekeeping is a success in itself.

I'm done here with you. For the record, I do not hate America. In fact, I really love the pride you guys have. I also love your determination and lust for freedom. It's just too bad you're letting elements of your Government take it away from you under a guise of some false terror threat. What pisses me off though is that a high population of America probably wouldn't even be able to point Canada out on a map and then these same people pretend to know so much about us... or better yet, just assume something about us that's not true.

Regardless of that, what I'm talking about is an issue on a global scale. There are powers in this world at work and unfortuantly, these powers have America by the balls at this point. They almost have the world by the balls. It's those of us who are willing to stand up to official bull**** stories that will make the difference. It's those of us who believe we, as humans, are better than what we've developed into that will break us from this darkness.

America and their many guns a blazing isn't going to save us. The people are.

[FlameHead]

you do realize you're part of the UN, right? 41 other countries are corrupt, and yours is what? the shining beacon of morality?

let Saddam slide on what, exactly? WMDs? ties to al Qaeda?

The UN is a problem anyway. We're letting ourselves becoming governed, worldly, by one organization. When you have one organization controlling so much, playing both sides, there's a problem.

Besides, any organization that allows China to be as brutal as they are and still remain a member without penalty has something wrong with it. Jesus, this people have killed more of their own people than any other country in the world. They eat babies. Babies. And still, the American governing bodies award their county as the one to look up too. There's something wrong with this picture.

[Malus]

-America and their many guns a blazing isn't going to save us. The people are.
Man, how weird is it that I just changed my avatar to Clint Eastwood, complete with pre-blazing guns, right before you posted that?
Flamehead, if you're psychic, that's just not fair to the rest of us on this board! ;)

[thechubbysaint]

The UN is a problem anyway. We're letting ourselves becoming governed, worldly, by one organization. When you have one organization controlling so much, playing both sides, there's a problem.

Besides, any organization that allows China to be as brutal as they are and still remain a member without penalty has something wrong with it. Jesus, this people have killed more of their own people than any other country in the world. They eat babies. Babies. And still, the American governing bodies award their county as the one to look up too. There's something wrong with this picture.

Flame, I agree mostly.

What do you mean by this though?
And still, the American governing bodies award their county as the one to look up too. There's something wrong with this picture. oh and that baby thing?

[Malus]

The UN is a problem anyway....Any organization that allows China to be as brutal as they are and still remain a member without penalty has something wrong with it. Jesus, this people have killed more of their own people than any other country in the world. They eat babies. Babies. And still, the American governing bodies award their county as the one to look up too. There's something wrong with this picture.

:up: No argument there. I think China is just sitting back, letting everyone else expend their domestic and military resources until the time is ripe.

(Are you sure about that babies part, though? Please refer to some documentation on that...)

[FlameHead]

thechubbysaint, what I mean is that last year, the Bush administration awarded the Chinease Government some sort of recognition as being the country to look up too. I can't remember the actual title but am looking for it now. One would think that the American Government is thus working towards that form of rule.

The baby thing is sometime I've looked into recently. There's lots of articles on it online though, I'm not sure how conclusive all of it is... which can be said forjust about everything these days. I do know that they have some really strict child laws over there though, including the killing of a lot of them. In one article I read (http://www.trosch.org/lif/baby-eat.html) that a doctor was quoted as saying

“People normally prefer [fetuses from] young women, and even better, the first boy and a male.”

She justifies the practice: “They are wasted if we don’t eat them . . Zou Qin has fed fetuses to her sister’s children. “I wash them with clear water until they look transparent white and then stew them. Making soup is best.” A photo depicts Zou Qin smiling, holding up a tiny fetus which hasn’t made it to her bowl yet.

[FlameHead]

Man, how weird is it that I just changed my avatar to Clint Eastwood, complete with pre-blazing guns, right before you posted that?
Flamehead, if you're psychic, that's just not fair to the rest of us on this board! ;)

I always believed I was pyschic actually. Funny you mention that...

[thechubbysaint]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1584/is_n10_v3/ai_12094431

This it flame? Most favored trade status?

I think that policy is for gradual change.

[FlameHead]

nope, that was in 1992.

[thechubbysaint]

Gets renewed every few years though.

[FlameHead]

It's not what I'm referring to. It was an award of recognition.

[Malus]

I do know that they have some really strict child laws over there though, including the killing of a lot of them. In one article I read (http://www.trosch.org/lif/baby-eat.html) that a doctor was quoted as saying

Looking at the other articles on that site, I'd definitely have to see a more um, grounded source.
Those are some ghastly charges. I really, really hope it's not true.

Sadly, though, I believe we live in a world where it certainly could be true.

[FlameHead]

Looking at the other articles on that site, I'd definitely have to see a more um, grounded source.
Those are some ghastly charges. I really, really hope it's not true.

Sadly, though, I believe we live in a world where it certainly could be true.

I really hope that just about everything I've learnt over the last 6 months dealing with the truth behind our world is not true too but, sadly, it's not. It's very real and it's very important that we are all aware of what's really happening on this beautiful planet of ours.

It's time to wake up. Americans, Canadians, Britians, Australians, everyone has to wake up.

[Dope Nose]

The character's long-established national allegiance is unquestionably to these United States of America.

well, technically it's not the real United States. it's the US of an almost parallel world, one with a Gotham and a Central City and a nation of Kandaq. most importantly it's a fictional world.

Yes, he's proud to be one of us, but he helps mankind out pretty equally. Or does he? By choosing to live in the U.S., isn't he in effect giving her citizens preferential treatment? I mean, the closer a situation is, the quicker response time he can give...the more lives he can save.
That's sort of an unpleasant truth, even to me.

I don't know about that. I mean, given his speed...

[Dope Nose]

here's an article dismissing the baby eating as an urban legend.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa080601a.htm

I want my baby back baby back baby back... ribs

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/4232/fatbastard6qe.jpg

[Malus]

There's an excellent essay on this today on the movie site CHUD: http://www.chud.com/index.php?type=news&id=7037
Here's an excerpt:
TRUTH, JUSTICE AND... A GENERAL CONCEPT OF NICENESS
07.01.06
By Devin Faraci (devin@chud.com)
http://chud.com/nextraimages/Superman_24.jpgTruth, justice and the American way. It’s essentially Superman’s motto. Warner Bros certainly thinks so – they sued a film about the last days of TV Superman George Reeves that used that phrase for a title; the movie is now known as the far less evocative Hollywoodland.

Truth and justice make appearances in Bryan Singer’s Superman Returns, but the American way is notably absent – Perry White even leaves it out at a Daily Planet staff meeting. Superman Returns may be the least patriotic Superman movie of all time; on first examination it seems that the only American flag in the film is on the side of the jet and space shuttle Superman rescues, and that seems like the kind of thing the art department would have added, not the director.

Some people will say that Superman is global – he’s here for all the people of the Earth. Why make him an American hero? It’s true that Kal-El’s work on this planet isn’t just for the people of the US (although it’s easy to believe it’s just for the people of the fictional city of Metropolis – the vast majority of the new film’s running time takes place in that town), but to remove Superman from his American origins is to lose the basis of the character. The importance of Superman as an American is because he isn’t from America. Superman is the ultimate immigrant, only instead of coming here from Eastern Europe, like the families of his creators, he rocketed here from a doomed planet.

As an immigrant, Superman embodies the American dream – he grows up imbued with basic American values of right, wrong and fairness as well as his Kryptonian powers. He’s not the same person without both of those things, something that was shown in countless “imaginary stories” (as opposed to all the factual Superman stories) in the Golden and Silver Ages of comics. Superman is the melting pot in human form, combining his glorious ethnic heritage with the solid beliefs of America.

Of course in 2006 we’re far from a world like the one where Superman was created. That’s partially because the American way triumphed – freedom, liberty and democracy are much more the norm in the world in this century than they were in the last. But some things never change, and America remains the destination for people from all over the globe looking for a new start and a new chance. The big difference is that the faces have changed – instead of the Eastern Europeans of the first half of the last century, blown to America by the winds of war, the current faces of immigration are darker, from Africa and Southeast Asia and South America. But that’s just a cosmetic change.

Other things are different in 2006 as well, and one of them might very well be the basic definition of the American way. To me it remains unambiguous, but to some – and one of them, I suspect, is Bryan Singer – it’s been tainted by the last few decades of corruption, partisan bickering and war. I’m as liberal as the next guy (if the next guy is Noam Chomsky), but I think it’s short sighted to judge this country as a whole based on the last few years of dictatorial mismanagement – as much as the current administration seems to hate to admit it, this nation remains founded on the basic principals that Superman stands for: honesty, equality, democracy, liberty, fairness (is there any doubt that Superman was all about the New Deal? He’s such a New Deal character – all about the little guy, but in a slightly totalitarian way that sometimes feels like he’s overstepping his bounds).

What Singer missed out on was the opportunity to reclaim the American flag. There’s a trend in leftie politics to reject any nationalism, and I think that’s pointless. Rejecting jingoism is one thing – let’s not get into a pissing match about whose nation is better, unless you’re from Mexico, in which case we win. But nationalism should be about loving where you’re from, not being blindly devoted to it. I love this country – I love its geography and its culture and its history – but that doesn’t mean I can’t see when it’s f**king up. In fact, my nationalism makes me feel those mistakes all the more deeply; I know we can do better than a gay marriage ban or a pointless and endless war in Iraq. It’s that nationalism that makes me want to improve this country, to fix what’s not working and shore up the stuff that we got right.

Donner’s Superman was more overtly patriotic, which is interesting when you look at when the film was made, in the years after Watergate. There are some people who don’t like to analyze a film beyond the entertainment value of what is on screen; these people are known as “stupid.” Looking at Donner’s Superman films in the context of the time can be illuminating – the patriotism on display is a touch hokey and campy, like it’s seen as something from a wistful bygone era. It’s all a part of Superman’s general corny nature, something naive to be both laughed at and yet wished for.

Interestingly, Singer’s Superman could be seen as representing modern America in many ways. A TV news montage shows us that he intervenes on an international scale, flying in and out of countries to set things right. We find out that Luthor is out of jail because of Superman’s Cheney-esque disregard for the rights of criminals. And speaking of Cheney, Superman appears to be just as much of a peeping tom as the vice president – besides his creepy stalking of Lois Lane’s home, he flies up into the sky to better listen in on everyone’s conversations. Superman doesn’t even need the help of telecommunications companies to eavesdrop on you.

There’s probably another reason that Singer left any patriotism out of the film, and while it’s partially political, it’s mostly capitalistic – Superman Returns is a major worldwide release, and in 2006 the American flag isn’t always seen as the symbol of freedom in other major movie markets. It’s too often seen as the flag of Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, the flag of Haditha and global imperialism. And so Metropolis is a nation unto itself, and Superman is divorced from his Midwest roots.

Of all the balls Singer drops in the film this could be the one that makes me saddest. Every day I open the paper and read about how the country I love is slowly moving away from being anything I can understand and support, and I listen to people who share my political views becoming more and more exasperated with the very concept of this nation. I would have loved nothing more than to go to the movies this summer and see there on the screen one of America’s great heroes, reminding us all of the qualities that still make this country great, no matter who is squatting in the White House.

[Superman79]

^^gREAT Article :up:

[Dope Nose]

As an immigrant, Superman embodies the American dream – he grows up imbued with basic American values of right, wrong and fairness as well as his Kryptonian powers. He’s not the same person without both of those things, something that was shown in countless “imaginary stories” (as opposed to all the factual Superman stories) in the Golden and Silver Ages of comics. Superman is the melting pot in human form, combining his glorious ethnic heritage with the solid beliefs of America.

I think what the author needs to understand is that values of right, wrong, and fairness aren't confined solely to America.

There are some people who don’t like to analyze a film beyond the entertainment value of what is on screen; these people are known as “stupid.”

yeesh. :rolleyes:

[FlameHead]

Good article indeed. What I find funny about it though is that the writer judges the Americana in a movie by the number of American flags throughout. I didn't realize American movies had to spend thousands of dollars on flags to be an American movie.

Anyway, I just got back from seeing the flick finally and all I gotta say is that you pick the line "Truth, Justice, and all that stuff" as something to ***** about when there is so much else wrong about that movie. Not horrible but, not good either.

[Vile]

I watched one of the trailers for Superman Returns where Perry White asks, "Does he still stand for truth, justice, all that stuff?" Hold the presses there Perry, to my recollection, he stands for truth, justice, and the American way. I don't know what kind of motivation or agenda the writers, director, producers have, but I am SORELY disappointed in their cowardace in changing what an American icon Superman has been.

Thats because in the new movie he sires a bastard son, abandons him for 5 years then returns with a simple: "I'll be around."

Thats the NOW American way. Ya know...all the other stuff. =)

[hulkamania85]

Who really cares? The only reason I read into it like that it all is because some of you guys got uptight about it. I just saw it as Perry White trying to remember Superman's motto. I don't see what the big deal is whether he mentions America or not.

[Lead Cenobite]

Superman no longer belongs to simply America...the Man of Steel is a UNIVERSAL symbol of hope, peace and nobility for billions around the globe.

Superman doesn't belong to the US, he belongs to the world.

Why must he single out a paticular country?

He doesn't. Just like any human on Earth, Superman is biased towards his own country.. of course I know there are exceptions but there are many people proud of their country and what it stands for. Superman is world famous and has fans around the globe, he still is an American who lived over half his life in a rural American town. It only makes sense that he would stand for the American way, just like a lot of people in America or elsewhere are proud of their country. Of course over time he can change, once he's experienced more of the world and beyond.

I honestly don't understand why fans not living in America or are not happy with American politics take it as a personal attack that Superman says he stands for the American way. Just look at it as a character trait, a quirk, whatever, and move on with your life. lol

[Superman79]

Happy Independence Day!!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j230/BoSoxSuperman/salute.jpg

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j230/BoSoxSuperman/911_olivetti.jpg

[CLARKY]

On a side note , I don't want to talk politics and I don't think it needs reasons to change Superman's mojo but I want to add that U said it could be understandable in the 70es because of the Watergate, the vietnam and so on .., but I don't think G.W. Bush being president is a good thing either , U see what I mean? Anyway I don't think Superman ideals have to depend of nation's behaviour in reality.I think this is a mistake



I watched one of the trailers for Superman Returns where Perry White asks, "Does he still stand for truth, justice, all that stuff?" Hold the presses there Perry, to my recollection, he stands for truth, justice, and the American way. I don't know what kind of motivation or agenda the writers, director, producers have, but I am SORELY disappointed in their cowardace in changing what an American icon Superman has been.


Superman is more than american , he's universal. I remember in the 70es when C.Reeves said "Truth, Justice, and .... " He thought Superman needed something beyond the"ideals" of ONE nation. This is my opinion as well.
I remember in Justice League Superman said "truth, justice, and liberty". That's my cue.
I think Superman has to fight for th ideals of human kind not the one's of a nation. Imagine this nation change or open its frontier like in Europe, or is divided or something else .... would that mean Superman has to change his ideals or keep the one of a nation that longer exist? It's too much reduced.
Different nation have their "mojo" And Superman's ideals are a mix of all those ideals humanity will always have and look up to.
I don't understand why it's so terrible. I mean he is still american, he lives in an american city ... well ....
What is important is that he does see beyond frontiers.
Anyway this is only my 2 cents opinion.

[thechubbysaint]

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