Official Young Avengers Discussion Thread

[TheCorpulent1]

I was surprised that they had an outright skinhead on there, but I guess if she's an anarchist skinhead rather than a racist skinhead, it's okay. Then again, the Marvel universe is still fairly overflowing with Nazis who just refuse to die, so who knows?

[Colossal Spoons]

"Cow"? What are you, Bendis' shoddy impression of Dr. Doom?

It's fast becoming the best insult to throw at a woman who wont sleep with you.

Doom and Namor are my role models.

really? I always liked that that's how his spell casting works.

I thought it was interesting at first. But then I saw how easy it would be to shut him down in the YA/Runaways crossover. All the guy had to do was cover his mouth. Lame. Strange can cast spells without hand signals right?

I was surprised that they had an outright skinhead on there, but I guess if she's an anarchist skinhead rather than a racist skinhead, it's okay. Then again, the Marvel universe is still fairly overflowing with Nazis who just refuse to die, so who knows?

Nobody will be more blatant than the Hatemonger lol

[moraldeficiency]

I thought it was interesting at first. But then I saw how easy it would be to shut him down in the YA/Runaways crossover. All the guy had to do was cover his mouth. Lame. Strange can cast spells without hand signals right?


Only when written by someone other than bendis or pak.

[TheCorpulent1]

Strange can cast spells in his sleep depending on who's writing him. :o

[Brainiac 8]

Bendis mostly keeps Dr. Strange around so that he can use his super ultra magic to get him out of writing jams in a jiffy.

Bendis: Hmmm...I don't seem to know how to get the heroes out of this mess that I wrote them into....AHA! I know! Dr. Strange can do it. I realize that he hasn't done anything usefull in this eight part arc, but now with a snap of the fingers they're saved!"

[Colossal Spoons]

If I were Niko, I'd try saying the spells in diff languages

[TheCorpulent1]

If I were Niko, I'd use a spell to ensure Molly could never speak again.

[Colossal Spoons]

they toned her down about 300% in this volume of Runaways after Whedon did everything in his power to make her as annoying as possible.

The new girl, Klara is cool though :up:

[Ion Kenshin]

How has the new Runaways been. I really like it before but I honestly could not get past the new art style. Is it good enough to warrant just sucking it up and reading it?

[TheCorpulent1]

they toned her down about 300% in this volume of Runaways after Whedon did everything in his power to make her as annoying as possible.

The new girl, Klara is cool though :up:
I hate Klara simply on the basis that she's not the sassy redheaded air-dancing chick. She should've been the one to come back to the present, not some stupid plant-controlling kindergarten racist. :o

[Colossal Spoons]

How has the new Runaways been. I really like it before but I honestly could not get past the new art style. Is it good enough to warrant just sucking it up and reading it?

Smack in the middle of Vaughn's work and Whedon's work; so in between awesome and suck lol. I like it a lot :up:

I hate Klara simply on the basis that she's not the sassy redheaded air-dancing chick. She should've been the one to come back to the present, not some stupid plant-controlling kindergarten racist. :o

Oh yeah, I forgot she was racist :cmad:

I wish that kid who's bullets never miss had lived though.

[TheCorpulent1]

I hate characters who "never miss" because they literally have to wind up missing at some point or another.

[Colossal Spoons]

Oh, I agree. I just want to know the explanation behind his powers

[TheCorpulent1]

Meh. Victor deserved a bit of happiness more than you deserved an explanation or Molly's insufferable ass deserved a playmate.

[Colossal Spoons]

Haha, I wanted the kid to live; not get brought to the present. I'd trade 'em all for Alex back though

[Ion Kenshin]

Smack in the middle of Vaughn's work and Whedon's work; so in between awesome and suck lol. I like it a lot :up:



Oh yeah, I forgot she was racist :cmad:

I wish that kid who's bullets never miss had lived though.
Maybe i will check it out in trade

[Colossal Spoons]

First arc just wrapped up :up:

[Dread]

I gave up on RUNAWAYS after the Whedon/Ryan run took about 14 months to finish a terribly cluttered 6 issue story and I honestly haven't felt too many pangs of loss about it. There are other titles I enjoy from Marvel now, the company is past the age in a way where that was their best franchise title. It lost a bit of magic without Vaughan. If the first trade gets incredible reviews, I may give it a gander.

[The Geek Vault]

I hate characters who "never miss" because they literally have to wind up missing at some point or another.
Well i have yet to see a character besides Kraken who has the "never miss" as a actual power. Most heroes or villains it is a skill.

[Star]

Meh. Victor deserved a bit of happiness more than you deserved an explanation or Molly's insufferable ass deserved a playmate.

SO true

[Colossal Spoons]

Well i have yet to see a character besides Kraken who has the "never miss" as a actual power. Most heroes or villains it is a skill.

This kid in Runaways would shoot and never miss. Idk if it was his power or if the gun was magic.

[AndThePickles]

This kid in Runaways would shoot and never miss. Idk if it was his power or if the gun was magic.

Who was that? I can't remember.

[Star]

Wasn't it this guy? (With the gun?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/allisonmb/Picture12.png?t=1235699326

I might be mistaken though I haven't read it in awhile either...

[TheCorpulent1]

Well i have yet to see a character besides Kraken who has the "never miss" as a actual power. Most heroes or villains it is a skill.
That's because no one actually has it as a power because it's a stupid power to have. It takes all the drama out of every fight he's in.

[Vanguard07]

Not necessarily. You'd just have to get creative with his enemies. Like a guy with a gun that never misses would still have a hell of a time against people like Juggernaut or Wolverine. Or even Iron-Man.
Bullets just arent that powerfull.

Definitely restrict it to the weapon and not the person though.

[The Geek Vault]

Not necessarily. You'd just have to get creative with his enemies. Like a guy with a gun that never misses would still have a hell of a time against people like Juggernaut or Wolverine. Or even Iron-Man.
Bullets just arent that powerfull.

Definitely restrict it to the weapon and not the person though.
Exactly like that.

[TheCorpulent1]

Why isn't just being an insanely good marksman enough? I bet Clint or Bullseye would kick that little punk's ass.

[The Geek Vault]

Why isn't just being an insanely good marksman enough? I bet Clint or Bullseye would kick that little punk's ass.
Idk Kraken is pretty badass too! HIs other power is he can hold his breath forever.... He's an acrobat too!

[Vanguard07]

The problem with just being a skilled marksman is the majority of the characters they go up against end up just dodging everything anyway. Which makes them just look stupid and useless.

Like Bullseye supposedly is so skilled that he "never misses" but how many times have you seen him miss Daredevil or Spiderman? When it's just a skill then it eventually becomes a joke.

[The Geek Vault]

The problem with just being a skilled marksman is the majority of the characters they go up against end up just dodging everything anyway. Which makes them just look stupid and useless.

Like Bullseye supposedly is so skilled that he "never misses" but how many times have you seen him miss Daredevil or Spiderman? When it's just a skill then it eventually becomes a joke.
Which is why both Hawkeye and Green Arrow have tricks. Hawkeye has his whole ronin thing going for him with the swords and Green arrow... well he has a glove on an arrow....

[Colossal Spoons]

Who was that? I can't remember.

Wasn't it this guy? (With the gun?)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/allisonmb/Picture12.png?t=1235699326

I might be mistaken though I haven't read it in awhile either...

I'm not sure if that's him or not. He was such a minor and insignificant character lol

[Colossal Spoons]

Not necessarily. You'd just have to get creative with his enemies. Like a guy with a gun that never misses would still have a hell of a time against people like Juggernaut or Wolverine. Or even Iron-Man.
Bullets just arent that powerfull.

Definitely restrict it to the weapon and not the person though.

I'm not too far into the series, but isn't that what Preacher is about?

[AndThePickles]

I'm not sure if that's him or not. He was such a minor and insignificant character lol

If it WAS during Whedon's run, I've already blanked out all of what happened from my brain :o

[Colossal Spoons]

Yeah, it happened during that huge fight at the end between the Gang Nobody Cares About and the Other Gang Nobody Cares About

[Vanguard07]

I'm not too far into the series, but isn't that what Preacher is about?


The Saint of Killers had guns blessed by god that never miss. But they were a hell of a lot more powerful than just ones that never miss.

If memory serves the blessings put on them by god made it so that:
-The bullets fired from the gun will never miss their mark.
-Any wound inflicted by the guns would never be anything less than fatal.
-The hammers would never fall upon empty chambers and the guns would never misfire.

Because of the "never be anything less than fatal" thing they made the SoK pretty much unbeatable.
He killed the devil, the Angel of Death and eventually God himself.

The gun or guns i'm suggesting would ideally just have the other two enchantments and IMO it'd make for a badass but still quite beatable character. Especially if it was the guns and not the owner.

[Red Mask]

Did the Young Avengers return to normal yet in the current Mighty Avengers storyline? Are they still stone statues?

[Colossal Spoons]

The Saint of Killers had guns blessed by god that never miss. But they were a hell of a lot more powerful than just ones that never miss.

If memory serves the blessings put on them by god made it so that:
-The bullets fired from the gun will never miss their mark.
-Any wound inflicted by the guns would never be anything less than fatal.
-The hammers would never fall upon empty chambers and the guns would never misfire.

Because of the "never be anything less than fatal" thing they made the SoK pretty much unbeatable.
He killed the devil, the Angel of Death and eventually God himself.

The gun or guns i'm suggesting would ideally just have the other two enchantments and IMO it'd make for a badass but still quite beatable character. Especially if it was the guns and not the owner.


Well damn :up:

[TheCorpulent1]

Did the Young Avengers return to normal yet in the current Mighty Avengers storyline? Are they still stone statues?
No, but it's pretty clear the current Mighty Avengers arc will see all of Chthon's effects reversed by the end of it. The New Avengers got killed in the first issue, so it's kind of a must.

[Kevin]

Cover to Dark Young Avengers#1
http://i42.tinypic.com/2ntzfon.jpg
I'm feeling the colorist on this.

[Darren Daring]

Haha, I wanted the kid to live; not get brought to the present. I'd trade 'em all for Alex back though

I would trade everybody everywhere just to get some Vaughn written Alex hanging about.

[Colossal Spoons]

^Too true. I don't miss Gert though :o

[Darren Daring]

Ha, no, not especially.

[Ion Kenshin]

Preview for Dark Young Avengers (http://thegeekcorps.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/preview-of-dark-young-avengers/)

[spark627]

Def gonna pick this up but it doesn't really fill the void left by a lack of a YA series.... so annoying.

[Ion Kenshin]

Def gonna pick this up but it doesn't really fill the void left by a lack of a YA series.... so annoying.
I agree...I really wish they would come back. I miss Billy and Tommy :csad:

[TheCorpulent1]

Hmm. Either the overblown speech is part of the fact that the Enchantress is crazy now or we've found yet another writer who can't write Asgardian speech to save their life.

[spark627]

I agree...I really wish they would come back. I miss Billy and Tommy :csad:


I miss Billy SO much! He is one of my absolute fave comic characters, I love reading him and Teddy... I wish Marvel would get this going, it is ridiculous that they are still waiting for Heinberg to grace us with his writing.

[Ion Kenshin]

I miss Billy SO much! He is one of my absolute fave comic characters, I love reading him and Teddy... I wish Marvel would get this going, it is ridiculous that they are still waiting for Heinberg to grace us with his writing.
This is actually who I meant to say....don't know why I put Tommy

[TheCorpulent1]

I miss Tommy. I wish we could get some more development on him, since we still know virtually nothing about him. He's gotten way less page time than any other character. Couldn't even muster his own Young Avengers Presents issue; he got paired with Billy and did next to nothing while Billy carried the story. :o

[Colossal Spoons]

I'd prefer a Tommy YAP book over Kate's :o

[TheCorpulent1]

I liked Kate's. I wouldn't want to steal another Young Avenger's book, I just wish Tommy'd had his own.

[Colossal Spoons]

You only liked Kate's cuz Clint was in it :p

[Dread]

Preview for Dark Young Avengers (http://thegeekcorps.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/preview-of-dark-young-avengers/)

So it appears that the Young Avengers have some impostors. I kind of agree that Enchantress' dialogue is a bit cliche. But at least the new "Melter" has a decent ability.

This will "fill the gap" of Young Avengers material. They average one mini series a year since Marvel hasn't been willing to commit to another ongoing for them since Heinberg left...about FOUR YEARS AGO. Which is a problem as now the YA's brand is a bit lower. Back in 2005-2006 they could likely still support an ongoing series. Now, they likely can't, so a yearly mini and some guest spots is the best they can do. And heck, two of their mini's also co-starred the Runaways, which likely ensured at least an extra 10-15k readers.

Part of me wonders if TheCorpulent1 is showing his heart for speedsters too much on his sleeve for pinings about Tommy Shepard, a.k.a. Speed (Thank you, Heinberg, for starting the trend with boring, obvious names like that. Then Whedon made "Armor", and so on). To be fair, Speed did get more to do than most of the other Young Avengers in the SECRET INVASION mini. He probably didn't get his own PRESENTS issue because Marvel only wanted 6 issues instead of 7 (this isn't a First Class mini, apparently), and/or perhaps they felt he couldn't carry one on his own. From what we know of Speed, he is essentially Young Quicksilver. His birth and origins are murky and may involve nasty characters (an insane Scarlet Witch, possibly being tied to Master Pandemonium, the Mage-That-Dressed-Like-A-Mexican-Wrestler, and Mephisto's soul fragments), he's arrogant, had a past as a juvenile delinquent, and has super-speed. And his costume is green and white, Quicksilver's original colors. Marvel's not usually been the haven for speedsters as DC once was, and with Quicksilver rarely reaching above C-List, a younger version of him is going to struggle.

I suppose you could argue that all it takes is a writer with interest and a good hook, and I suppose that is true. Technically the Young Avengers liberated Tommy from prison to recruit him; he also damaged the United Nations building in an off-panel battle. I would imagine with the sweeping enforcement of the SHRA in the Iron Man and especially Osborn administrations, this would probably put Speed on a wanted poster and perhaps bring some freaks out of the woodwork after him. Perhaps you could play up a redemption angle; Terry McGinnis in BATMAN BEYOND started as a juvie delinquent, too. But frankly I believe most editors and writers on the franchise just see him as young Quicksilver, a cipher and little more, and that likely won't encourage them to give him a focus issue. It is a vicious cycle; he's the one with the least fleshed character, because no one wants to write it for long, but hey, that happens in comics.

Out of all of them, Hulkling, Wiccan, Stature, and Vision Jr. have probably gotten the most focus the last two years. Patriot and "Hawkingbird" haven't had much more focus than Tommy lately aside for an issue of YAP. Part of me imagines Brubaker wanting to have Patriot show up in CAPTAIN AMERICA more often if he could. Might be fun to have Eli exchange a few words with Falcon.

[The Geek Vault]

Just picked up the first issue of hte mini and I liked it. I enjoyed the new melter and liked how they dealt with Enchantress's speak. Also robo orgasm

[Dread]

Link to my review, with spoilers:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=16917032&postcount=9

[batnkevlar]

I don't like Big Zero... what's her problem?

Though I do like seeing racists as bad guys...

[Dread]

You're not supposed to like Big Zero. She is very clearly a menace. It's amazing she didn't wind up in one of the many groups that hate minorities like the Serpent Society or even Red Skull's gang, or with some anti-mutant types like the Hellfire Cult or the Sapien League. But, yeah, out of most of the team she is very clearly evil, only out for the violence and the chance to squash minorities or people she doesn't like.

Like I said in my review, while I did like the issue, I question whether passing up a chance to spend an issue on the YA themselves when many of them still need fleshing was wise, and it is hard to feel for Melter's plight since he and most of his crew are named after villains. What do they expect?

"Never fear, citizens, I am Crimson Hitler Hussein! I...wait...why are you running? Why does everyone run from me!? RRaagghhh!" :p

[The Geek Vault]

For some reason I'm feeling like Melter's gonna be a goner before this is over...

[Vanguard07]

I like the Robot. Egghead? He was entertaining.
I also liked Melter despite the fact that he's banging the Enchantress whom I now strongly hate because of this issue.

Seriously the lisp jokes and the old thor-speak did not work for me at all.

[Dread]

For some reason I'm feeling like Melter's gonna be a goner before this is over...

Possibly. Big Zero probably gets easily irritated. And who knows how long Coat Of Arms would tolerate his dissent.

Speaking of which, she's pretty weird. She seems to be into the whole scene as a bit of an art experiment, like Joker in 1989's "BATMAN", a "homicidal artist". She seems to have 4-6 arms in battle but only two when not. So either she "grows" the arms or they're attachable via her coat. Weird.

I like the Robot. Egghead? He was entertaining.
I also liked Melter despite the fact that he's banging the Enchantress whom I now strongly hate because of this issue.

Seriously the lisp jokes and the old thor-speak did not work for me at all.

I'm not quite sure whether this is THE Enchantress or not. Cornell may have done an interview about it once, but who knows if he was willing to reveal every character twist. Enchantress looked like her old self in THOR: GOD SIZE and that was back in December I think. I agree her speech is annoying, but enough characters inside this issue mocked it that I am thinking Cornell knows what he is doing, that either Enchantress is faking an act to get what she wants, or this could be her daughter or even half-daughter, posing as Enchantress. I mean, considering her rep, you'd think Enchantress would have bedded at least one or two mortals in Midguard at some point.

Egghead was decent for a robot. Probably liked Executioner the best out of the lot, likely due to the mask. Besides, it's not the first time the Punisher has inspired an imitator.

[Vanguard07]

I just think "racist robot" is a hilarious character idea. Especially since it seems to be an inherintly "good" robot to begin with.

Yeah the Executioner seemed interesting. Egghead and Melter were the ones that interested me the most, Executioner would be a close third I guess and the others will just have to settle for varying degrees of my hatred.

[Dread]

Yeah, Egghead didn't seem all bad, just a victim of his programming. Like most robots, to a degree.

[moraldeficiency]

I'm gonna venture a guess and say that's not the enchantress but someone poorly pretending to be her.

Kinda dig the melter (props for the spider-man t-shirt).

This seems kinda like a toned down version of the Boys to me.

[Colossal Spoons]

Enchantress' speaking was irritating as hell. Wtf is "ith"?

[bryanss3]

I haven't got the issue yet but does it seem like any of these characters could end up on the actual Young Avengers roster by the end of this mini? obviously the nazi one isn't though.

[moraldeficiency]

doubt it, I believe these are gonna be the "Young Masters of Evil"

[bryanss3]

yeah thats what I figured. just throwing the question out there.

[spideyboy_1111]

the only one i could see ever turning good is Melter... he seems to genuinely want to be a hero... but its still way to early

[bryanss3]

I still haven't got it but when I saw Melter from the preview I thought he'd be a cool hero. I like his look it reminds me of Grifter from the Wildcats

[The Geek Vault]

My guess is that Big Zero will kill Melter or EggHead be programmed to hurt Melter, causing melter to melt Egghead which causes Zero to kill Zero. As for coat of arms I think it's robotic arms which kinda like ock arms.

[Mr. M]

wasn't a huge fan of the issue. However, now that the 'Real' Young Avengers have showed up to open up a can, I'll continue to read it.

[CaptainCanada]

The latest update (http://www.marvel.com/blogs/Tom_Brevoort/):
>Will Young Avengers ongoing return, as well as Loners? >

The Young Avengers are currently appearing in DARK REIGN: YOUNG AVENGERS (written by reader questions column favorite Paul Cornell!) as well as MIGHTY AVENGERS, and you'll continue to see them moving forwards. But we don't want to put them in an ongoing series until we've got everything set just right in terms of the creative team and the landscape of the Marvel U. And as you've no doubt figured out, they play a major role in Allan Heinberg's upcoming AVENGERS project with Jim Cheung, so until that series is over and done with, the best you're likely to see are limited series and specials.

[Ion Kenshin]

^^^ that sucks something major

[TheCorpulent1]

Yay, confirmation of what we already knew: Marvel is retardedly waiting for Heinberg to take time out of his busy Hollywood schedule to grace them with another Young Avengers story. :dry:

[Mogwai]

i can't wait for another volume of YA with heinberg and cheung. but they're working on another avengers project? hmmm.

[Colossal Spoons]

boo, forget heinberg already

[CaptainCanada]

I'm not clear that H & C are doing another volume; they're doing this Avengers project instead (from the looks of it, I would say it's Scarlet Witch-related). Marvel has let other writers start to pick away at Heinberg's announced story ideas, such as with the DR miniseries.

[TheCorpulent1]

Regardless of what it is, Heinberg's lack of involvement is still clearly blocking any further ongoings with the Young Avengers, which I think most of us would prefer over these event minis and occasional appearances in other comics.

[Eros]

Is heingberg even alive anymore? what Tv shows does he write for now?

[Dread]

It is a shame, but not surprising, that Marvel continues to enjoy being taken for suckers for Hollywood writers. Heinberg's always considered comics a second, paid hobby. The only run he finished on time was a 6 issue JLA run, and that was co-written by workhorse Geoff Johns. His first volume of YA was plagued with delays, some which may not have all been the fault of Cheung (who is hardly Bagley-speed). DC learned the hard way with WONDER WOMAN. Yet Marvel continues to believe no one else; not Cebulski, or Wells, or Yost, or Cornell, or anyone really, could write the Young Avengers.

This franchise has already cooled quite a bit; this year may be make or break for an ongoing in this market.

[TheCorpulent1]

Is heingberg even alive anymore? what Tv shows does he write for now?
Grey's Anatomy.

[Specter313]

The latest update (http://www.marvel.com/blogs/Tom_Brevoort/):

Haven't they been working on that project for a couple years at this point? How much longer are they going to hold off? Things in the "landscape of the Marvel U" are changing so much these days that it will be hard for anything that people have been writing since say, six months ago, to fit in six months down the line with everything else that is happening. It would create a continuity nightmare, which would probably explain why they don't let the YA do much of anything else these days.

[Specter313]

It is a shame, but not surprising, that Marvel continues to enjoy being taken for suckers for Hollywood writers. Heinberg's always considered comics a second, paid hobby. The only run he finished on time was a 6 issue JLA run, and that was co-written by workhorse Geoff Johns. His first volume of YA was plagued with delays, some which may not have all been the fault of Cheung (who is hardly Bagley-speed). DC learned the hard way with WONDER WOMAN. Yet Marvel continues to believe no one else; not Cebulski, or Wells, or Yost, or Cornell, or anyone really, could write the Young Avengers.

This franchise has already cooled quite a bit; this year may be make or break for an ongoing in this market.

And for newer franchises as well. I'd say newer teams similar to the YA, like Runaways, have also been taking a hit in recent months as far as momentum goes. How many more times are they going to restart their books until they're given up on altogether? In today's economy, it's probably looking more and more tempting for editors to focus more on properties that will make them almost guaranteed money rather than risk venturing into some projects that would probably lose more than what they would make.

[Dread]

And for newer franchises as well. I'd say newer teams similar to the YA, like Runaways, have also been taking a hit in recent months as far as momentum goes. How many more times are they going to restart their books until they're given up on altogether? In today's economy, it's probably looking more and more tempting for editors to focus more on properties that will make them almost guaranteed money rather than risk venturing into some projects that would probably lose more than what they would make.

RUNAWAYS has had problems in terms of sales since the Whedon run. He nearly tripled Vaughan's sales upon his debut; but 14 months and 6 issues later, sales weren't much about what they were under Vaughan, and after him sales have tanked for the Moore run. Granted, this is a title we are told sells wonderfully in digest (where it is $8 for 6 issues).

Part of me keeps thinking that YOUNG AVENGERS has missed it's time because Marvel sat on an ongoing relaunch too long. It is a shame.

[JustABill]

RUNAWAYS has had problems in terms of sales since the Whedon run. He nearly tripled Vaughan's sales upon his debut; but 14 months and 6 issues later, sales weren't much about what they were under Vaughan, and after him sales have tanked for the Moore run. Granted, this is a title we are told sells wonderfully in digest (where it is $8 for 6 issues).

Part of me keeps thinking that YOUNG AVENGERS has missed it's time because Marvel sat on an ongoing relaunch too long. It is a shame.
It is, because at this point I'd rather have a Young Avengers ongoingthan whatever AI is going to become. :o

[Dread]

It is, because at this point I'd rather have a Young Avengers ongoingthan whatever AI is going to become. :o

You mean AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE? It's doing fine right now, still selling at over 40k a month. I could list plenty of ongoing's that wish they were doing that well (as do I). If this latest YA mini could remain selling at that level, it would be good. Granted, this volume has gotten off to some mixed reviews. It wasn't Cornell's best.

[JustABill]

I'm just saying while I enjoyed Avengers: The Initiative in the past, I'd prefer a Young Avengers ongoing in it's place now, since it sorta feels out of place in the post Secret Invasion world.

[Dread]

I'm just saying while I enjoyed Avengers: The Initiative in the past, I'd prefer a Young Avengers ongoing in it's place now, since it sorta feels out of place in the post Secret Invasion world.

I'd like to think there is room for both. Christos Gage is showing how the Initiative will continue under Osborn, how many of the "black hats" will more blatantly take control and what happens to all those new recruits, many of them "fan favorite" (if only to about 5 fans) C and D List heroes. I'm still enjoying it, and I might argue that Gage is having an easier go with it than Slott sometimes did. He just seems more balanced with what the premise requires, and/or is just rolling well with an excellent Dark Reign set-up, as Fraction is with INVINCIBLE IRON MAN.

Young Avengers just needs a premise and a plan beyond drifting from mini's and guest shots.

[Specter313]

RUNAWAYS has had problems in terms of sales since the Whedon run. He nearly tripled Vaughan's sales upon his debut; but 14 months and 6 issues later, sales weren't much about what they were under Vaughan, and after him sales have tanked for the Moore run. Granted, this is a title we are told sells wonderfully in digest (where it is $8 for 6 issues).

Part of me keeps thinking that YOUNG AVENGERS has missed it's time because Marvel sat on an ongoing relaunch too long. It is a shame.

That's what I mean, the delays under Whedon and then the poor storytelling and art under Moore/Ramos have caused the book to lose any momentum that all the newer readers who came on for Whedon could have given the series. Marvel's really been dropping the ball on some of the characters and teams who really could be the next generation of heroes and bring in newer readers. It really is a shame.

[Dread]

That's what I mean, the delays under Whedon and then the poor storytelling and art under Moore/Ramos have caused the book to lose any momentum that all the newer readers who came on for Whedon could have given the series. Marvel's really been dropping the ball on some of the characters and teams who really could be the next generation of heroes and bring in newer readers. It really is a shame.

It is a shame. I think Marvel landed audiences they didn't expect and didn't know what to do with them with some properties. For example, the cartoon X-MEN EVOLUTION, a result of many ugly compromises between Marvel and a WB related network, proved to be astonishingly popular with an audience neither expected; teenage girls. Considering that half the cast were girls and Rogue was all but the female lead for many episodes, it should have been a bit logical, but who knows. What was the result? Both sides bungled things, choosing a hatred of sharing profits over exploiting a new market.

RUNAWAYS at least supposedly sells in another format and still has some indie cred left. I could imagine a movie based on them much sooner than the Young Avengers.

[JustABill]

It is a shame. I think Marvel landed audiences they didn't expect and didn't know what to do with them with some properties. For example, the cartoon X-MEN EVOLUTION, a result of many ugly compromises between Marvel and a WB related network, proved to be astonishingly popular with an audience neither expected; teenage girls. Considering that half the cast were girls and Rogue was all but the female lead for many episodes, it should have been a bit logical, but who knows. What was the result? Both sides bungled things, choosing a hatred of sharing profits over exploiting a new market.

RUNAWAYS at least supposedly sells in another format and still has some indie cred left. I could imagine a movie based on them much sooner than the Young Avengers.
One is in development at Marvel Studios with Vaughan writing the script...so.

[CaptainCanada]

DR: YA #2 (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=2813&disp=table) preview.

Looks good; Speed and Coat-of-Arms knowing each other is a neat twist (was she in the same prison as him?).

[Dread]

Speed needs some more fleshing badly. I still am not convinced that making the new characters the leads in this mini was the best choice for a Young Avenger mini, when they're still mostly ciphers, but it's off to a fast start.

[NightBeetle]

Eli in Captain America #600 Preview (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=21573)


http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/4503/prv2832pg5.jpg
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/476/prv2832pg6.jpghttp://img352.imageshack.us/img352/8011/prv2832pg7r.jpg

[[A]]

They still use that blur effect to.. um, represent movement?

[TheCorpulent1]

I so hope Rikki sticks around. I want Bucky-Cap to restore her faith in the world she landed on and for them to become a team.

[mightiest_mortal]

so who was the women with the snakes?

[CaptainCanada]

so who was the women with the snakes?
Princess Python.

[Varient]

Eli in Captain America #600 Preview (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=21573)


http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/4503/prv2832pg5.jpg
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/476/prv2832pg6.jpghttp://img352.imageshack.us/img352/8011/prv2832pg7r.jpg


hmmmn,.. I may start reading Captain America again,... I didn't know the Bucky from the Heroes return Earth had been transferred.

[The Geek Vault]

Lady Python, part of the circus of crime.

[Dread]

I so hope Rikki sticks around. I want Bucky-Cap to restore her faith in the world she landed on and for them to become a team.

Doubtful. It would be cool, but I doubt it. The YOUNG AVENGERS are a limbo franchise now. They exist as an annual mini, and this one barely has them in it. From there it's just guest shots in MIGHTY AVENGERS or CAPTAIN AMERICA stuff.

A repost of my review, with spoilers:

DARK REIGN: YOUNG AVENGERS #2: The actual Young Avengers get something to do here, but the stars of the book are clearly the "Young Masters" characters that Cornell & Brooks have created, and I still question if that is wise. The YA themselves are not in any way over-exposed. In fact they RELY on a token 5-6 issue mini a year to get ANY sort of development, large or small. Stature has an in with MIGHTY AVENGERS, and occasionally Patriot has a Brubaker Cap comic, but beyond that, nada. I don't think now is the time when they can play second fiddle in their own series.

This also smells a little of decompression, but Cornell manages to work in some quirky dialogue and bits so it still comes off as entertaining. Apparently the REAL Young Avengers have caught wind of impostors using their name, and, mindful of the irony, arrange to meet with them to make sure things are on the level. A quick and obligatory fight ensues, with some of the Masters, namely Big Zero, more than eager to fight anything. It was cute that Egghead was literally being turned on by Vision; the schlub's a walking vibrator, really. Enchantress, with her "lisp", is a powerful enough mage to disturb Wiccan and calls and end to the battle. Speed, in his first subplot EVER of his own, appears to have met Coat of Arms in juvie.

At first assuming that Osborn is officially running this new group, Coat of Arms admits she is merely "inspired" by Osborn into running the team as a big "art" experience. She sees Green Goblin as a bit of a homocidal artist, which reminds me of BATMAN, circa 1989, with Burton's vision of the Joker. Way to be current, Cornell. I guess in comics, twenty year old references are newer than some. At first gushing over meeting Osborn in person, he snaps at her when she shows him some Green inspired artwork, which she saw as "him putting on his Goblin act for me" and inspiring her to collect her merry band of freaks. Big Zero is a hopeless aggressive bigot, with Egghead her robotic pawn. Melter seems the most genuine, but he is easily controlled by Enchantress. And it turns out that Executioner is apparently the son of Princess Python, who apparently has recovered the HELL up since she was blind and washed up in PUNISHER: WAR ZONE last year. But, wait, does that mean the Gibbon is Executioner's step-father? No wonder the guy's disturbed and violent. What an obscure set of parents! Still, it works I guess.

Some of the Young Avengers, meanwhile, feel hypocritical since they didn't like when the adult Avengers pushed them around way back when, as well. While Speed has the subplot, the rest of them are just there, though. Tommy may end up getting the most to do here out of them (which isn't much), and he likely needs it.

Brooks' art is solid as usual. A little too familiar with faces, but so is Mark Bagley. He's vibrant with young characters and the colors pop. Still, I can't shake the feeling that this book is trying too hard to be quirky, it reaks of an effort to not be seen as mundane or generic. While I am not saying it is bad, what I am saying is one can tell when someone/something is trying too hard. Cornell seems more comfortable with CAPTAIN BRITAIN than he is with YOUNG AVENGERS. Granted, once this is over he will have written six issues of material; hardly an extensive run.

It's obvious that the Masters will be corrupted and become antagonists regardless of solicits. I suppose telling the story from their POV is a little gutsy, but the Young Avengers need some focus, too. It's not a bad mini, but $4 an issue seems a bit much for this one. But, may as well buy it this way; the trade will only cost an extra nickel collectively.

I just hope that Princess Python's return somehow mentions how she got over being blind and basically reliant on Gibbon (her husband) in PUNISHER: WAR ZONE last year.

[Specter313]

Kiel Phegley: We have a fan’s question that ties-in to some topical stuff. Lobsterj asks, "Joe, Can you explain the business reasoning behind canceling 'Young Avengers' until Alan Heinberg decides to come back to the title?"

Joe Quesada: Well, Allan promised us long ago that he was going to return to the characters, and he's finally delivering. He's actually working on the story right now, and I think [editor] Tom Brevoort's actually talked about this several times on his blog, and I’ve mentioned it in several interviews and columns. So we're giving Allan and his characters the room to breathe so that when he comes back with this gigantic Young Avengers story – which by the way will be very, very significant and also reintroduces a long missed character back into prominence in the Marvel Universe - but we're giving Allan room to breath because we promised him we'd give him this room. And it's as simple as that. Once Allan is done with the particular story he's working on, one of two things will happen: either he will start writing "Young Avengers (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=21714#)" on a regular basis or he'll give his blessing for us to move on with "Young Avengers.” It's a matter of his time because Allan is very, very busy with his Hollywood stuff.


We just felt internally that we owed Allan this latitude as the guy who, along with Jimmy Cheung, brought these characters to life.


Kiel Phegley: With a lot of Hollywood names like Allan Heinberg, Damon Lindelof on "Ultimate Wolverine Vs. Hulk" and even back to Kevin (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=21714#) on "Daredevil[ (http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=21714#)", Marvel has great initial buzz with these big names before eventual problems in getting the work out on time, significantly slowing fan interest and possibly sales on once hot books. How do you balance the idea of tapping some of this name talent with the problems caused by their other gigs?

Joe Quesada: You have to take it on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes it has to do with the creator’s intent. In the case of Damon, he was hell bent on finishing his story and I knew he would eventually get to it. In the case of Kevin, his story was more self-contained and really didn’t effect our telling of current Daredevil stories. Each case is different and has to be handled as such.


http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=21714

[Dread]

I love how Joe Q manages to justify his Marvel being suckers for Hollywood writers seeking a paid hobby while not answering the question or explaining if the practice will ever change.

I remember when the Bryan Singer run on ULTIMATE X-MEN was happening "next year" for about 2-3 years (and 2-3 creative runs intended to merely "pass time" until he got there, Vaughan and Kirkman). I'll believe Heinberg has written so much as a word of YA material until I see something on the shelf with his name on it. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a SECRET AVENGERS type situation; where the "famous" credit at the top has little month to month involvement in the writing of the title. Hell, Mark Millar used to make his bread and butter by "co-writing" stories with Grant Morrison that Grant usually wasn't bothered to do much with.

[Specter313]

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see other people's reaction's to how much he dances around the issue. This storyline REALLY better have some major ramifications and give readers a virtual handjob for the crap they've been put through in waiting for it.

[Dread]

I think Kang has been on a shelf all these years waiting for him.

[TheCorpulent1]

It's funny how he talks about a case-by-case basis for these super-late stories, yet the end result is always "let's wait until these Hollywood types deign to grace us with their name power again."

[Dread]

The end result is always, "the ego a Hollywood writer is worth more than the paying customers who have supported us in and out of bankruptcy, without whom we could have never succeeded in becoming more of a licensing company that makes most of our profits from movies, merchandise and TV shows than from the print arm. Putting the customer last on the list has been what sports franchises and big businesses great, and we are no exception. And it always works out. Except when the nation faces a recession every decade or so."

[Darthphere]

Ugh get over it. I have to say, I totally respect their logic in this decision with Heinberg. Lets not get carried away and blame Heinberg for this, Marvel totally could've continued YA without him, same way they continue to churn out stories for Runaways after BKV. But without Heinberg, there is no Young Avengers, so I can see why they would want to wait. Not necessarily agree with it, but it's not like not having a Young Avengers title has been a detriment to the Marvel Universe.

[Dread]

On the flip side, unless the sales for DARK REIGN: YOUNG AVENGERS really surprise me, Marvel has allowed this once hot franchise to cool considerably. It used to average about 50k sales. Now it barely sells over 30k for obligatory mini's, and two out of the last four also co-starred the Runaways and likely had some of that audience reading it. I know that Heinberg didn't decide his ego was worth more than customers; Joe Q and Marvel did, and seem to always do. It's akin to a sports franchise that is slave to TV money and treats their live audience customers like dirt at every turn.

Ironically, with McKeever back at Marvel, another possible option for a new YA ongoing writer is here. But, I just think the franchise has cooled too much. An ongoing seems unlikely. The reason this is a problem is because the Big Two have proven utterly incapable of producing ANY new franchises. Even many that are now reaching the big screen were still 60's or 70's creations. The newest franchise Marvel has is RUNAWAYS, which is probably why they are sticking with it despite that book not far from selling at SPIDER-GIRL levels (granted, supposedly digest sales make up for it). And even RUNAWAYS is over six years old now. By the time SPIDER-MAN 4 is on DVD, it will have been a decade since it was created. It gets hard to call yourself a House of Ideas when if you are lucky you make a new franchise once a decade.

MARVEL ZOMBIES isn't a franchise; it's a gimmick. Had MARVEL APES sold better, it'd be in the same league. Thankfully, it hasn't.

Marvel has had to crap or get off the pot for YOUNG AVENGERS for years now. They refuse to, and it may have killed a franchise in the cradle. It wouldn't be the first time; bungling sank OMEGA FLIGHT like that, too. I get the feeling by the time they finally publish something where another writer has ghost-written from Heinberg's notes on a napkin, it will be too late for anyone to respond with decent numbers.

It says a great deal about a company that is perfectly willing to be led around by writers who clearly, and at every turn, see it as a paid hobby. If Lindeloff kept a TV show on hold for three years on scripts, he would have been off the project and might have difficulty landing work afterwards. At Marvel, no one cares. It's unprofessional.

[Darthphere]

On the flip side, unless the sales for DARK REIGN: YOUNG AVENGERS really surprise me, Marvel has allowed this once hot franchise to cool considerably. It used to average about 50k sales. Now it barely sells over 30k for obligatory mini's, and two out of the last four also co-starred the Runaways and likely had some of that audience reading it. I know that Heinberg didn't decide his ego was worth more than customers; Joe Q and Marvel did, and seem to always do. It's akin to a sports franchise that is slave to TV money and treats their live audience customers like dirt at every turn.

Ironically, with McKeever back at Marvel, another possible option for a new YA ongoing writer is here. But, I just think the franchise has cooled too much. An ongoing seems unlikely. The reason this is a problem is because the Big Two have proven utterly incapable of producing ANY new franchises. Even many that are now reaching the big screen were still 60's or 70's creations. The newest franchise Marvel has is RUNAWAYS, which is probably why they are sticking with it despite that book not far from selling at SPIDER-GIRL levels (granted, supposedly digest sales make up for it). And even RUNAWAYS is over six years old now. By the time SPIDER-MAN 4 is on DVD, it will have been a decade since it was created. It gets hard to call yourself a House of Ideas when if you are lucky you make a new franchise once a decade.

MARVEL ZOMBIES isn't a franchise; it's a gimmick. Had MARVEL APES sold better, it'd be in the same league. Thankfully, it hasn't.

Marvel has had to crap or get off the pot for YOUNG AVENGERS for years now. They refuse to, and it may have killed a franchise in the cradle. It wouldn't be the first time; bungling sank OMEGA FLIGHT like that, too. I get the feeling by the time they finally publish something where another writer has ghost-written from Heinberg's notes on a napkin, it will be too late for anyone to respond with decent numbers.

It says a great deal about a company that is perfectly willing to be led around by writers who clearly, and at every turn, see it as a paid hobby. If Lindeloff kept a TV show on hold for three years on scripts, he would have been off the project and might have difficulty landing work afterwards. At Marvel, no one cares. It's unprofessional.

Except that based on Lost's popularity, he could totally pull that off. Lindelof just isn't some scrub writer on Lost.

[Colossal Spoons]

Not really diggin this Dark Reign mini too much. A shame too, but I'll finish it up so the franchise doesn't lose anything(I know my measly 2.99 doesn't mean much but w/e)

[Mogwai]

i'm glad to hear there's finally going to be a volume 3.

[Dread]

Except that based on Lost's popularity, he could totally pull that off. Lindelof just isn't some scrub writer on Lost.

Lindeloff could not be under contract to write for LOST, run a full 3 years (or 36 months) behind on his deadline for several episodes, and then expect to be attached to the program once he submitted them in that late. He would have been gone, replaced, and his reputation, at the very least, smudged. In the world of comics, though, he is paid in full, and should he ever fancy to so much as co-plot an issue of anything, either Marvel or DC would beat down his door. I get tired of this industry compromising on their values, professionalism, and fans so much. Heinberg was embarassingly late on his last comic book work, a 6 issue run of WONDER WOMAN for DC, and Marvel is STILL holding a franchise on hold for him. It isn't like he wasn't running behind schedule for his 12 issues of YOUNG AVENGERS, either.

Frankly, if they couldn't have so much as gotten a SINGLE issue co-written by him during the writer's strike, I doubt they ever will get more than that. To be honest, the Young Avengers are no where near as unique or quirky as the Runaways were, and Marvel had no qualms replacing Vaughan once he left that title (and Marvel in general). Hell, Cassie Lang was a pre-existing character. Other writers have handled the characters in one-shots and mini's and done fine. I really don't see why Marvel is so insistent here.

Not really diggin this Dark Reign mini too much. A shame too, but I'll finish it up so the franchise doesn't lose anything(I know my measly 2.99 doesn't mean much but w/e)

It's...quirky to say the least. I just don't think it is altogether wise to make the YA's the guest stars of their own mini. At the very least, it hints at giving Speed his first subplot that isn't attached to his brother Wiccan.

i'm glad to hear there's finally going to be a volume 3.

Marvel has been promising a volume 2/3 since the end of the last 12 issue "season" about 3-4 years ago. I'll believe it when I see it.

[Colossal Spoons]

I just don't find ANY of these new "villains" interesting aside from Egghead...maybe. They had a built-in villain in Kang which would have been appropriate since Dark Reign is going on and Kang's a big name baddie.

[Dread]

Again, I think Kang is on a shelf until Heinberg gets back.

[Colossal Spoons]

Yeah, makes sense.

[Dread]

For the record, I don't think Kang has been seen since YOUNG AVENGERS SPECIAL #1, circa 2006. To be fair, while it is a bit of a drought for one of the Avengers' A-List villains debuting in 1963-1964 (as Rama Tut in FF #19, and Kang in AVENGERS #8), sometimes a length of time can help revive interest in a character so long as they were once a big name. Marvel did not deliberately intend to keep Thor on a shelf for about four years after axing him off, but the result built up hefty demand for JMS' eventual relaunch, and despite horrendous delays it still usually sells in the Top 10. Giving Kang a rest might help out his appeal; it is something Magneto has rarely gotten.

To me, Kang needs an agenda. Objectively, he seems like a masochist; he has literally conquered the past and the future. There is nothing left to achieve. Yet he consistently travels into the 20th and 21st century to fight the Avengers for "sport", and loses every single damned time. There were periods when he had a definite goal, such as reviving Ravonna or wanting to control Mantis after she was claimed to be "The Celestial Madonna", but other than that, it is hard to peg down what Kang wants or why he bothers to go back some 800-900 years to constantly get his butt kicked by heroes that he, by all rights, should own with advanced technology. It's akin to a Marine in 2009 traveling back to the year 1209 to fight samurai in Feudal Japan and losing despite having modern body armor, grenades, and AK-47's, yet continuing to do so like an idiot. That doesn't even mention the 500 versions of the character that exist; Rama-Tut, Immortus, Scarlet Centurion, Iron Lad, Kang Kong, etc. In some ways he faces the same problem as Apocalypse; his backstory has a rep as this massive conqueror throughout time, yet he has to lose to heroes and thus loses said rep every time. It makes him look like a slacker. It almost is a bit of a shame that Kang's most recent real battle, taking over Washington D.C. in 2001-2002, didn't quite get the attention as such a story nowadays would get.

And not to rag on Jack Kirby, but his design could use a tune up. With his outfit he looks like a cross between a baseball umpire and a Kabuki actor. I don't know if he is going to call strike three or talk about rose petals. I'm sure there is a way to tweak the design slightly without totally destroying it. I just never buy the idea that people from the future (or outer space) have no idea of clashing colors or gaudy designs.

Before Ultron was revealed as the big bad in ANNIHILATION CONQUEST, some were guessing that Kang was behind it all, and while Ultron worked for CONQUEST, Kang probably wouldn't make a bad nemesis for an ANNIHILATION 5 or so on. They currently are dealing with stuff like tears in the space/reality/time fabric. Mantis is still hanging around. Throw in an agenda and he could probably work.

Either that, or something with the MIGHTY AVENGERS.

I just think Kang could use a tune-up like all great villains need every generation or two, and hopefully his time on the shelf leads to something positive in that regard.

[spideyboy_1111]

i like enchantress and melter... but they don't seem to want to be bad... lol

[KangConquers]

For the record, I don't think Kang has been seen since YOUNG AVENGERS SPECIAL #1, circa 2006. To be fair, while it is a bit of a drought for one of the Avengers' A-List villains debuting in 1963-1964 (as Rama Tut in FF #19, and Kang in AVENGERS #8), sometimes a length of time can help revive interest in a character so long as they were once a big name. Marvel did not deliberately intend to keep Thor on a shelf for about four years after axing him off, but the result built up hefty demand for JMS' eventual relaunch, and despite horrendous delays it still usually sells in the Top 10. Giving Kang a rest might help out his appeal; it is something Magneto has rarely gotten.

To me, Kang needs an agenda. Objectively, he seems like a masochist; he has literally conquered the past and the future. There is nothing left to achieve. Yet he consistently travels into the 20th and 21st century to fight the Avengers for "sport", and loses every single damned time. There were periods when he had a definite goal, such as reviving Ravonna or wanting to control Mantis after she was claimed to be "The Celestial Madonna", but other than that, it is hard to peg down what Kang wants or why he bothers to go back some 800-900 years to constantly get his butt kicked by heroes that he, by all rights, should own with advanced technology. It's akin to a Marine in 2009 traveling back to the year 1209 to fight samurai in Feudal Japan and losing despite having modern body armor, grenades, and AK-47's, yet continuing to do so like an idiot. That doesn't even mention the 500 versions of the character that exist; Rama-Tut, Immortus, Scarlet Centurion, Iron Lad, Kang Kong, etc. In some ways he faces the same problem as Apocalypse; his backstory has a rep as this massive conqueror throughout time, yet he has to lose to heroes and thus loses said rep every time. It makes him look like a slacker. It almost is a bit of a shame that Kang's most recent real battle, taking over Washington D.C. in 2001-2002, didn't quite get the attention as such a story nowadays would get.

And not to rag on Jack Kirby, but his design could use a tune up. With his outfit he looks like a cross between a baseball umpire and a Kabuki actor. I don't know if he is going to call strike three or talk about rose petals. I'm sure there is a way to tweak the design slightly without totally destroying it. I just never buy the idea that people from the future (or outer space) have no idea of clashing colors or gaudy designs.

Before Ultron was revealed as the big bad in ANNIHILATION CONQUEST, some were guessing that Kang was behind it all, and while Ultron worked for CONQUEST, Kang probably wouldn't make a bad nemesis for an ANNIHILATION 5 or so on. They currently are dealing with stuff like tears in the space/reality/time fabric. Mantis is still hanging around. Throw in an agenda and he could probably work.

Either that, or something with the MIGHTY AVENGERS.

I just think Kang could use a tune-up like all great villains need every generation or two, and hopefully his time on the shelf leads to something positive in that regard.

Kang could admittedly use a tune-up. When I read the Kang Dynasty, it sort of felt like the last story they could do with the character; having him finally conquer the world (the first marvel villain to do so through a military campaign.)

Kang is addicted to conquest, but as Avengers Forever showed, he began to become disenchanted with the idea of conquest.

Ravonna is still dead, from Immortus's attack on Chronopolis in Avengers Forever, but I almost don't think it's worth having Kang revive Ravonna again; that's a been there/ done that scenario.

Kang is a tough character to write, and I hope they have some plans for him. I'm sort of under the impression Joe Q, or someone higher up, isn't very fond of the character. Wait and see I guess.

[Darthphere]

Lindeloff could not be under contract to write for LOST, run a full 3 years (or 36 months) behind on his deadline for several episodes, and then expect to be attached to the program once he submitted them in that late. He would have been gone, replaced, and his reputation, at the very least, smudged.

More of Dread not knowing what the **** he is talking about. Lindelof is not just a writer on the show, he is also an Executive Producer and Co-Creator of the show. So yes, they would wait 3 years for his script. Maybe ABC would have dumped the show by then, but some other network (Probably FOX) would take it up. Do some research man.

[Wheeliegood]

What I would like to read is a Patriot mini if I had my choice. The few pages he had in Cap 600 keeps reminding me how BA this kid is. Also I was thinking that the mini should have Parker (if he still teaches I stay away from ASM) as his teacher. So Patriot could be trying to ditch class to go save the world. You could make an arguement that parker would know that he is Patriot but I think it would be fun if he didn't for like 1 or 2 issues. Then for whatever reason Patriot have a conversation with the Avengers and starts raggin on his crappy science teacher always giving him a hard time. Then you could 1 or 2 issues of Parker trying to cover for the kid without letting him know that he knows who he is. The by the end of the mini there could be a hostage situation with a c-level villian and some how parker and pariot would have to work together. You could have a scene where Patriot laughs at the idea of his science teacher is spider-man til parker is sticking to the roof. I think the main idea or focus should be Patriot in costume and Parker not in costume. So it is not really a team up til the end. Even then parker may not have his costume so he can not go all out for obvious reasons. Since it is a c-level it could be believable that patriot could take him down on his own. I would love to see how parker would cover up for patriot. I think it could work. You could other members of YA in it aswell but the main focus be Patriot. I just think they would be an unlikely duo. I would also keep them from doing the Patriot fights the school bully.

[TheCorpulent1]

Patriot was pretty cool. Makes sense that he'd be one of those obnoxiously political kids in high school. We all knew 'em. They'd talk about history and Noam Chomsky and s*** like anyone gave a damn. But in Patriot's case it works because he's intricately tied to those themes in so many ways. :up:

[Wheeliegood]

At of all the YA Patriot and Hawkeye I find the most interesting. I would buy a mini staring them. Kate could be included in by previous idea of the patriot/parker idea.

[spideyboy_1111]

except One More Day/Brand New Day destroyed Peter Parker.... and one of the many things they took from him was his teaching job

[Colossal Spoons]

At of all the YA Patriot and Hawkeye I find the most interesting. I would buy a mini staring them. Kate could be included in by previous idea of the patriot/parker idea.

Speed, Wiccan, and Vision interest me the most. I'd like Patriot more if he weren't so angry. He could give Luke Cage a run for his money.

[spideyboy_1111]

actually i think he might of quit teaching right before back and black... to be fair... but... i still like to blame all regressions of his character on Joey Q none the less....

[spideyboy_1111]

Speed, Wiccan, and Vision interest me the most. I'd like Patriot more if he weren't so angry. He could give Luke Cage a run for his money.

See this is why i love YA's everyone really does have there favorites... I love Wiccan and Hulking quite alot.. and sure a big part of it is that I find them adorable, and that it's a very well done gay couple..... but none the less I enjoy them alot.

On a side note... I still think it's pretty annoying that in 2 issues of this book we've already seen Enchantress and Melter naked in bed twice.... and we've still never seen hulkling or wiccan kiss.... :o

I'm also eager for the series to come back in full swing.. I'd like to know what's going on with them personally... like is hulkling living with Billy's family now since his "mom" was killed?

[TheCorpulent1]

Personally, I'd like to know more about Speed. I always thought it was lame how he came in late so Heinberg never gave us much on him, and then all of the one-shots and minis afterward barely give us anymore on him. Hell, he didn't even get his own Young Avengers Presents issue; he got lumped in with Wiccan and Wiccan was undeniably the main character in the story.
Speed, Wiccan, and Vision interest me the most. I'd like Patriot more if he weren't so angry. He could give Luke Cage a run for his money.
I don't really see Patriot as the stereotypical angry black man, to be honest. Yeah, he was angry for a while, but that was more teenage angst than black rage. And he was smart enough to figure out it was misguided and stabilize himself a bit. He's still got a short fuse but that describes any number of superheroes.

[Dread]

Another aspect of Patriot that the character/Heinberg were criticized for besides the "angry black male" stereotype was that he was the only one who used drugs (MGH) to fuel his powers. To many that seemed like another cliche, one that DYNAMO 5 is actually at risk of imitating. Of course, times have changed. In the Golden Age, DC's Hourman could use his "serum" called Miraclo which is essentially a suped up steroid to gain powers for an hour, and it was considered fine. Now it's a drug addiction. I think HELLBLAZER recently had an issue noting how a "love potion" has gone from being seen as a fantasy element to a date-rape drug without the element itself changing any. Still, to many, Patriot using MGH was seen as clashing with the rest of the team who "earned" their powers in better ways. Thankfully Eli is past that now.

More of Dread not knowing what the **** he is talking about. Lindelof is not just a writer on the show, he is also an Executive Producer and Co-Creator of the show. So yes, they would wait 3 years for his script. Maybe ABC would have dumped the show by then, but some other network (Probably FOX) would take it up. Do some research man.

You're honestly telling me that if LOST was held up on writing ANY new episodes for ANY network for THREE CALENDER YEARS because writer/producer/creator Lindeloff decided some other job was too important for his time, that he wouldn't even suffer so much as a blemish to his professional reputation? Not even gossip? Not even a "hey, there's that prima donna who misses deadlines" chatter at board meetings? PullllEEEEEZE. LOST and Lindeloff would be dust-bin's without any new episodes for, again, three years. Not a one for any network, due to "well, he is awfully busy". LOST has been losing ratings and buzz for years, and if it, again, went 36 months without a single new episode, it would not be able to return to it's former standing on TV; no one would give a damn because the heat would have cooled. Now I suppose to be fair we have gotten YOUNG AVENGERS comics without Heinberg, but they've usually not been substantial, and the franchise is basically a dead one hobbling; it's only a nose above the New Warriors, and the NW are at least over 15 old.

The sad reality that you or comics don't want to face is that Hollywood writers respect their Hollywood deadlines more than Marvel's for a simple reason; missing deadlines is not so easily tolerated or rewarded in the TV/movie biz as it is with comics. Hell, a writer can even be sued for breaching a contract in the Hollywood biz if they are THAT exceptionally late that production stalls to a halt.

Now, of course, it is a chicken or egg situation; do you blame the few Hollywood writers for suckering Marvel, or Marvel for so easily and gladly allowing themselves and their customers to be suckered? If I was Joe Q, DAREDEVIL: TARGET would be a professional travesty I would be eager to make up for, "out of continuity" or not (and never mind that Bendis, then writing DAREDEVIL, actually had to wait a few months to use Bullseye in a story because Kevin Smith intended to use him; but Joe assumes everyone has a short a memory as he does), but apparently that's not Joe. If Marvel wants to stop being taken for chumps, they need to stop acting like it.

actually i think he might of quit teaching right before back and black... to be fair... but... i still like to blame all regressions of his character on Joey Q none the less....

I believe Peter was axed as a teacher for his lateness/absences in BRAND NEW DAY.

See this is why i love YA's everyone really does have there favorites... I love Wiccan and Hulking quite alot.. and sure a big part of it is that I find them adorable, and that it's a very well done gay couple..... but none the less I enjoy them alot.

On a side note... I still think it's pretty annoying that in 2 issues of this book we've already seen Enchantress and Melter naked in bed twice.... and we've still never seen hulkling or wiccan kiss.... :o

I'm also eager for the series to come back in full swing.. I'd like to know what's going on with them personally... like is hulkling living with Billy's family now since his "mom" was killed?

Yeah, see, a lot of these characters need more fleshing and they haven't gotten it, so it seems a poor choice on Cornell's part to make them the side details of their own mini. Commentators have noted a few times at comic's continued unwillingness to show male homosexual romance; I believe an issue of PUNISHER way back raised eyebrows for being more willing to show gay men being brutally murdered than making out.

I hope we find out why Enchantress is talking like a 'tard.

Kang could admittedly use a tune-up. When I read the Kang Dynasty, it sort of felt like the last story they could do with the character; having him finally conquer the world (the first marvel villain to do so through a military campaign.)

Kang is addicted to conquest, but as Avengers Forever showed, he began to become disenchanted with the idea of conquest.

Ravonna is still dead, from Immortus's attack on Chronopolis in Avengers Forever, but I almost don't think it's worth having Kang revive Ravonna again; that's a been there/ done that scenario.

Kang is a tough character to write, and I hope they have some plans for him. I'm sort of under the impression Joe Q, or someone higher up, isn't very fond of the character. Wait and see I guess.

Occasionally, though, Joe Q can do right by an area he doesn't like by hiring the right talent to handle it, knowing it has some audience, and backing off, much as he has done with the ANNIHILATION line of books. Joe Q isn't fond of space stuff, either, yet on his watch they're better than they've ever been. As much as we beat on him for errors, you have to also credit him for successes.

Glad someone else agrees that Kang, cool as he is, could use a tune up.

[spideyboy_1111]

Yeah, see, a lot of these characters need more fleshing and they haven't gotten it, so it seems a poor choice on Cornell's part to make them the side details of their own mini. Commentators have noted a few times at comic's continued unwillingness to show male homosexual romance; I believe an issue of PUNISHER way back raised eyebrows for being more willing to show gay men being brutally murdered than making out.

I hope we find out why Enchantress is talking like a 'tard.



yeah, comics really need to not open doors to the gay community, but then kinda keep them in the hallway so to speak.. (i tried with an analogy... not sure if it worked haha). They gotta move past hugs, tears and smiles and allow kissing, and intimacy... now i don't expect gratuitous suggestive sex scenes or anything.... or anything that's been as raunchy as some strait characters (tiny pym between janets thighs rings a bell to that :dry:), but They attracted a large amount of gay readers by including these characters.. and avoiding the topic might push many away. I do however think sadly, if Heinberg returned, he'd push the envelope a little more with that. It's sad marvel is waiting on him though.

[Darthphere]

You're honestly telling me that if LOST was held up on writing ANY new episodes for ANY network for THREE CALENDER YEARS because writer/producer/creator Lindeloff decided some other job was too important for his time, that he wouldn't even suffer so much as a blemish to his professional reputation? Not even gossip? Not even a "hey, there's that prima donna who misses deadlines" chatter at board meetings? PullllEEEEEZE. LOST and Lindeloff would be dust-bin's without any new episodes for, again, three years. Not a one for any network, due to "well, he is awfully busy". LOST has been losing ratings and buzz for years, and if it, again, went 36 months without a single new episode, it would not be able to return to it's former standing on TV; no one would give a damn because the heat would have cooled. Now I suppose to be fair we have gotten YOUNG AVENGERS comics without Heinberg, but they've usually not been substantial, and the franchise is basically a dead one hobbling; it's only a nose above the New Warriors, and the NW are at least over 15 old.

Eh probably not 3 years, but it's not unheard of for a show to go on a long hiatus, up to a year sometimes. I just wanted to get it through your thick skull that Lindelof is not some scrub writer on LOST and has more pull than you think.

The part I bolded in your post is beyond ridiculous. No one is talking about New Warriors, no one is clamoring for New Warriors. The fact that we talk about Young Avengers every goddamn day book, mini, or nothing going on with them is a testament to the power of the franchise. If Young Avengers got an ongoing and sustained it without delays, YA would be consistently in the Top 40 if not higher depending on the creative team. I can guarantee you that. To claim that Young Avengers is basically dead is absurd to say the least.

By the way, don't misunderstand me here. I'm not happy about not having a YA title. I wish we had an ongoing and I wish Heinberg was more responsible about things he takes on. I just have to say, that I understand where Marvel is coming from with their what I'm going to call "unhealthy loyalty" to Heinberg and Cheung as well. I would prefer Heinberg writing YA because he's what made them click for all of us, but trust me Dread, Marvel is going to wise up and move on if Heinberg can't pull the trigger. They're sitting on a gold mine, they're not gonna sit and wait for cash4gold.com to give them they money.

[Dread]

Eh probably not 3 years, but it's not unheard of for a show to go on a long hiatus, up to a year sometimes. I just wanted to get it through your thick skull that Lindelof is not some scrub writer on LOST and has more pull than you think.

Fine. I still think simple professionalism should count for something, and it is a shame that comics are such an introverted industry that the powers that be usually see it as a forgettable ethic.

Still, the delay on ULTIMATE WOLVERINE VS. HULK is beyond the pale. Even Joss Whedon's Marvel comics weren't that atrociously late. Sure, it took him 14 months for he and Ryan to wrap up that six issue RUNAWAYS arc, but at least they finished it. And we're at the point in modern comics where "a mere 8 months behind schedule" is no longer a shock, when we have titles going years behind schedule. THE TWELVE hasn't seen an issue since November, and hardly anyone seems to mind. It's not 12 months behind yet. A shame things have gotten to this point.

Barely 8 years ago, the idea of a comic being a month late was a failure. Now it's practically on time.

The part I bolded in your post is beyond ridiculous. No one is talking about New Warriors, no one is clamoring for New Warriors. The fact that we talk about Young Avengers every goddamn day book, mini, or nothing going on with them is a testament to the power of the franchise. If Young Avengers got an ongoing and sustained it without delays, YA would be consistently in the Top 40 if not higher depending on the creative team. I can guarantee you that. To claim that Young Avengers is basically dead is absurd to say the least.

It is worth noting that the NEW WARRIORS had an ongoing that ended a few months back that ran 20 issues. No, it wasn't the best, and you can pick holes at it all day long, but including the annual, YOUNG AVENGERS hasn't had more than 13 issues of an ongoing for 3-4 years. Hell, you need to include two mini's to get them to 20 issues of material, and two of those mini's also starred the RUNAWAYS, and could count at their material.

The New Warriors are having a key role in AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE and have since the start. The YOUNG AVENGERS are barely showing up in MIGHTY AVENGERS, and that is only because Stature & Vision II made the leap (likely someone in editorial deciding not to wait on Heinberg's priorities when Dan Slott pitched his run).

And I believe I did say that the YOUNG AVENGERS are in better position than the NEW WARRIORS. Just barely.

A Top 40 book, by ICV2.com's Top 300 sales estimates for May 2009, would have to sell over 38k copies. Their last mini, YOUNG AVENGERS PRESENTS, which had a few issues written by A-List talent like Brubaker, barely averaged 32k and sometimes dipped below 27k for the last issues. And while the optimist says that's fine, that's more or less where MS. MARVEL has been selling for years now, it is a far cry from when it first launched and could pull over 50k an issue. The heat on YOUNG AVENGERS in the 3-4 years that Marvel has been sitting on it has allowed the franchise to cool substantially, reverting from a B-List to a C-List franchise in less than a Presidential term, purely from Marvel's editorial stubbornness towards a writer who clearly isn't interested in writing for them over his "day job", because if he was, he'd have written something. For God's Sakes, the man was on strike for a quarter of a year, and they couldn't get him to co-plot a bloody one shot. That speaks volumes about either Marvel or Heinberg regarding this property.

If DARK REIGN: YOUNG AVENGERS can sell above 38k all the way through, then I will concede this point. I doubt it. Maybe allowing a franchise to cool so much that sales on it have fallen maybe 50% through sheer editorial spinelessness is a no big deal to some, but to me it's a blunder.

By the way, don't misunderstand me here. I'm not happy about not having a YA title. I wish we had an ongoing and I wish Heinberg was more responsible about things he takes on. I just have to say, that I understand where Marvel is coming from with their what I'm going to call "unhealthy loyalty" to Heinberg and Cheung as well. I would prefer Heinberg writing YA because he's what made them click for all of us, but trust me Dread, Marvel is going to wise up and move on if Heinberg can't pull the trigger. They're sitting on a gold mine, they're not gonna sit and wait for cash4gold.com to give them they money.

Marvel hasn't wised up in over three bloody years. I won't believe they will suddenly on this property without Heinberg until I see it. Cheung is a slow artist but he's been available. He'd need at least 1-2 other artists to fill in for him every 2-3 issues, but he'd be aboard any relaunch. Lord knows he's done covers for endless YA mini's.

Frankly, the "only Heinberg can write these characters well" excuse won't fly. They're cool but they're not nearly as unique or quirky as the RUNAWAYS. Hell, Stature/Cassie Lang wasn't even an original character, she was a long standing one. Brubaker has written the team well. Chris Yost, Zeb Wells, and Matt Fraction have, too. McKeever has just returned to the fold and he could probably pull the team off. I imagine Christos Gage could handle the team, too, if he had to. There are more than enough options for the Young Avengers for a relaunched ongoing without Heinberg. I mean by all means if he can be included for even co-plots, by all means. But we've gotten not one word of text from him in over three years. Every comic he has written solo has been atrociously late. I tire of Marvel being dumber than a sack of hair on this franchise.

[Specter313]

- Allan Heinberg and Jimmy Cheung will make a long-awaited return to the Young Avengers next summer in Avengers: Children's Crusade.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/091012-baltimore-retailers.html

[Colossal Spoons]

Thank you Jesus Christ, in your little manger!

I didn't really mean it when I said I wanted Grey's Anatomy to burst into flames last week :heart:

[Dread]

It sure has taken long enough. The YA franchise has been in limbo for about 3 years and has lost virtually all steam while Marvel has awaited Allen Heinberg to turn in so much as a co-plot credit (and for the record, a "co-plotter" is usually someone who reads a summary of a script and says, "alright, but I'd rather ____ beat the robot"). Hopefully it will be worth the long wait.

[RockSP]

edit

[RockSP]

They've had a few minis. That's not limbo.

[Colossal Spoons]

It is the "Land of Meh" though

[BrianWilly]

**** Allan Heinberg. His whore self needs to go jump off a bridge.

There. I said it. You all thunked it but I said it.

:angry:

Continue Young Avengers without him. It's time.

[Colossal Spoons]

Gage or Wells would have been perfect for the book.

[Dread]

Gage or Wells would have been perfect for the book.

Yeah. McKeever's even back and I'm sure he could have cranked out something decent.

But, what's done is done. Marvel chose to wait this long to do anything major with the YA and they'd deny up the wazoo that falling sales for their mini's don't mean the franchise has cooled, because Joe Q feels good EIC-ship is moving too fast to "sulk" over mistakes, according to one interview I saw a vid of on Newsarama. All one can hope for is whatever this is will be worth the wait and finally give the editorial dept. what they wanted to move on.

[Sawyer]

**** Allan Heinberg. His whore self needs to go jump off a bridge.

There. I said it. You all thunked it but I said it.

:angry:

Continue Young Avengers without him. It's time.

Seriously. What the hell has he been doing for the past, like, three years?

[Colossal Spoons]

Grey's Anatomy lolz

[RockSP]

Seriously. What the hell has he been doing for the past, like, three years?

What he was doing before he ever wrote comics (and making more $$$ than he would from comics, to boot).

[Eros]

It sure has taken long enough. The YA franchise has been in limbo for about 3 years and has lost virtually all steam while Marvel has awaited Allen Heinberg to turn in so much as a co-plot credit (and for the record, a "co-plotter" is usually someone who reads a summary of a script and says, "alright, but I'd rather ____ beat the robot"). Hopefully it will be worth the long wait.

How much you wanna bet "childrens crusade" will be delayed, or never finish.:awesome::doh:

[spark627]

So is this actually a Young Avenger story? Or an Avenger story?

[TheCorpulent1]

What he was doing before he ever wrote comics (and making more $$$ than he would from comics, to boot).
I'm more annoyed with Marvel for committing to not continue Young Avengers in any kind of substantial way without him. Mini-series where the characters spin their wheels and nothing really happens just make me care less about them.

[RockSP]

Yeah I've said before it all comes down to Marvel since they actually own the characters.

[TheCorpulent1]

So is this actually a Young Avenger story? Or an Avenger story?
Probably a bit of both. There's always been some overlap between the two (or three, if you want to look at it that way) teams. Now Cassie and Vision, Jr. are full Avengers as well as Young Avengers, too.

[JustABill]

They shouldn't be. She's annoying, and he's a dull version of the old classic named after the Jonas Brothers. :(

[TheCorpulent1]

I agree. The current Vision makes me miss the old Vision and Cassie has been bugging me in Mighty Avengers. But they're still technically members of both teams.

[spark627]

I wish we were getting YA Volume 2 instead of a YA/Avengers crossover event. Oh well, take what I can. The good news is after this, YA is out of Heinberg's control.

[CaptainCanada]

Gage or Wells would have been perfect for the book.Wells, maybe; Gage's writing is too procedural for a title that banked a lot on snappy dialogue.

[Colossal Spoons]

If he wrote it like he does A:TI, I think it'd be decent

[TheCorpulent1]

Preview of Siege: Young Avengers (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=4858&disp=table)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/thecorpulent1/prv4858_pg3.jpg

[BrianWilly]

Tommy has a personality...in addition to something to do? IS SHOCKED.

Not shocking: no YA series news after all this time. :(

[TheCorpulent1]

Did anybody else just kind of automatically slip into Hank Venture's voice when reading Hulkling's dialogue on the page I posted? I mean, "pooled a puddle in my pants"? He's totally channeling the same dead crazy people Hank does. :o

[CaptainCanada]

Not shocking: no YA series news after all this time. :(
Heinberg's maxiseries is supposed to start this summer, at least.

[Dread]

Tommy has a personality...in addition to something to do? IS SHOCKED.

Not shocking: no YA series news after all this time. :(

Silly Billy...you have to remember, to most writers, simply being homosexual IS a personality. Y'know, because it is so rare and new and distinct, right? Isn't it still 1991?

Oh, it isn't?

Well...yes, I do agree on liking how Tommy was written in the preview.

Did anybody else just kind of automatically slip into Hank Venture's voice when reading Hulkling's dialogue on the page I posted? I mean, "pooled a puddle in my pants"? He's totally channeling the same dead crazy people Hank does. :o

I didn't notice.

Heinberg's maxiseries is supposed to start this summer, at least.

I'll believe it when I see it on a shelf. Marvel has been holding this franchise on hold for Heinberg for about five years and reaped no positive returns.

Still, I do like how the mini seems to be focusing on the members who aren't Stature and Vision, who are covered in MIGHTY AVENGERS and THUNDERBOLTS right now, which is wise.

[NightBeetle]

http://i43.tinypic.com/vhsx0g.jpg

[BrianWilly]

Silly Billy...you have to remember, to most writers, simply being homosexual IS a personality. Y'know, because it is so rare and new and distinct, right? Isn't it still 1991?

Oh, it isn't?

Well...yes, I do agree on liking how Tommy was written in the preview. Tommy is Speed. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-ssh.gif

[Dread]

Tommy is Speed. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-ssh.gif

Right. My error. Tommy is Speed. Teddy is Hulkling and I think Billy is Wiccan. It does get hard to remember their names when they are only in about one story a year, and when they are in said story, they barely do anything of relevance. I mean DARK REIGN: YOUNG AVENGERS was 5 issues long and the Young Avengers themselves barely did anything but show up for obligatory fight scenes.

Still, Tommy did something there. He apparently met "Coat Of Arms" in juvie and wanted her to join his team. She declined.

I did like Wiccan's apparent fascination with Asgardian mythology. It has been a while since he did anything character related, too.

I sincerely believe Marvel's sitting on this franchise has killed it in the cradle. I don't think a Heinberg mini at this stage will sell well, not when random YA mini's are lucky to sell in the Top 80. Through sheer neglect, Marvel turned what once was a healthy B-list franchise into something that spirals down the same drain as Ghost Rider and Moon Knight, which at least both have the benefit of having once had a heyday. The YA hardly had a heyday; they had a few hey-moments.

[CaptainCanada]

I'll believe it when I see it on a shelf. Marvel has been holding this franchise on hold for Heinberg for about five years and reaped no positive returns.
They've never given a name or release date prior to now.

[TheCorpulent1]

I've been seeing the title "The Children's Crusade" for months now.

[Dread]

They've never given a name or release date prior to now.

Marvel once solicited an issue of X-MEN EVOLUTION #10 for October 2002. It had a cover image and everything. Never saw print.

For at least two writer runs on ULTIMATE X-MEN, Brian K. Vaughan and Robert Kirkman, Marvel and WIZARD issued breathless articles that Bryan Singer (and his team of writers) would write 12 issues of the title. Has yet to happen.

Ask anyone at Marvel about Kevin Smith's DAREDEVIL: TARGET #2, and at best you'll get a "you're a nerd with a long memory" chuckle.

So, forgive me for not trusting promises on this end. Marvel has promised an Allen Heinberg "season 2" of Young Avengers since roughly 2005-2006, and produced not one page of anything even proof-read by Heinberg. Marvel should have, at lasted, issued an ongoing series with a regular writer and artist (which could have been Jim Cheung at times) by early 2007. Now it may be way too late, and it is a shame. The characters had potential.

I'll believe it when I see it on a shelf, and I pay $4 for it.

[CaptainCanada]

I've been seeing the title "The Children's Crusade" for months now.
No, I mean that, prior to Avengers: The Children's Crusade, none of the discussions of when the characters would return had ever given a name or release date. It was always just "we hope he'll be able to return X". So I expect this to be released.

[ImWithTeamConan]

Wouldn't surprise me if they're getting the series done before even talking about it. I mean, what has Cheung been doing all this time save the occasional issue here or there?

And I for one, cannot wait to read it.

I do think after this is over if Heinberg can't commit to something that they should hand the reins off to someone. McKeever?

[Specter313]

Only think I can think of Cheung doing is covers to stuff like Secret Warriors, and like you said, and special issue here and there. Just seemed like busy work so they don't tie him down to anything in particular until he could come back to YA.

[Scarecrow_King]

anybody seen the announcements about the Young Allies? I have a feeling we're gonna be getting a Young Avengers/Young Allies crossover at somepoint down this Heroic Age line. seems like they would mesh fairly well.

slightly aside, I like the line-up so far of the Young Allies, but the only downside to me is that ****ing Sean McKeever is writing the damn thing. After his run on Teen Titans, I have serious reservations about his ability to write a teen ensemble book.

[Havok83]

does anyone really still care about YA as a series? Marvel completley dropped the ball on this. They had alot of momentum a few years back but it seemed to have fizzled down. I still like the characters but stopped waiting for an ongoing a long time ago. At this point, Id rather see them integrated into other titles kinda like they did with Stature and Vision.

[Scarecrow_King]

I haven't read any of the Mighty or Initiative stuff with Vision and Stature. I'm still not a fan of how they folded them into the rest of the universe. They were a perfectly AWESOME team on the borderline outside of the heroes. They were stand-alone, but if they needed help, there was no way the Avengers would say no. I would've rather seen the entire team run from registration.

so that being said, I'm still hoping for another Heindberg/Cheung series. with the whole team together. I have the collected hardback of the first volume, and would like something to rival my Vaughn Runaways hardback collection. I think the team has the potential to do so.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'd like another series featuring the whole team, but Heinberg and Cheung are in no way necessary for that, as far as I'm concerned. I understand showing an artist some latitude to work out their schedule, but it's been 2 or 3 years now since the last Young Avengers series. Time to move on and give the series to someone who'll prioritize it like it actually matters.

[NightBeetle]

http://twitter.com/allanheinberg/status/12077716700

[ImWithTeamConan]

I think this thing is like...halfway done and it'll get announced when it's all done so it can ship biweekly.

[TheCorpulent1]

I hope that's the last of whatever Heinberg had planned for the Young Avengers so someone else can take over on an ongoing after it's done.

[ImWithTeamConan]

I'd say pull a Batwoman and have Cheung co-write with McKeever.

[CaptainCanada]

I'd say pull a Batwoman and have Cheung co-write with McKeever.The last thing Cheung needs is more demands on his time. Doing five issues a year is work enough for him.
I think this thing is like...halfway done and it'll get announced when it's all done so it can ship biweekly.
They've said it'll be bimonthly, I believe starting in July.

[ImWithTeamConan]

Sweet.

But damn...bimonthly? I hate bimonthly. Monthly's bad enough for an impatient dude like myself.

[TheCorpulent1]

Bimonthly can mean twice a month or every two months. I always hated the imprecision of that word...

[CaptainCanada]

Bimonthly can mean twice a month or every two months. I always hated the imprecision of that word...
With Cheung and Heinberg, it's definitely the latter; generally "biweekly" (or "twice-a-month") is used to mean once every two weeks in comics.

[Scarecrow_King]

it seems like most people here don't like Heinberg. why not? I loved his first run. I like it about 4 trillion times better than anything McKeever has ever written.

[Dread]

does anyone really still care about YA as a series? Marvel completley dropped the ball on this. They had alot of momentum a few years back but it seemed to have fizzled down. I still like the characters but stopped waiting for an ongoing a long time ago. At this point, Id rather see them integrated into other titles kinda like they did with Stature and Vision.

I still care, but I do agree that Marvel has really dropped the ball on it. When issue twelve of their last ongoing shipped, it was still selling at some 60,000+ copies an issue. Some of the latest mini-series numbers were less than half that, at a higher cover price. I doubt the SIEGE one shot will fair much better. Stature & Vision Jr. branching out to the Mighty Avengers was good for them, but I don't think it'll have helped the YA any. Now is hardly a healthy time for spin off titles even under the best of situations. I mean, not even Wolverine spin-offs or one-shots are doing too hot these days.

I'd like another series featuring the whole team, but Heinberg and Cheung are in no way necessary for that, as far as I'm concerned. I understand showing an artist some latitude to work out their schedule, but it's been 2 or 3 years now since the last Young Avengers series. Time to move on and give the series to someone who'll prioritize it like it actually matters.

Agreed. For the record, the last Heinberg/Cheung issue of YA shipped on June 28th, 2006. And that issue had run months behind schedule. So, it has been almost four full years. For a full presidential term, Marvel has allowed this franchise to fester and lose luster.

I agree, Marvel should have, by 2007 or early 2008 at the latest, issued another writer to handle a second volume of their ongoing. It might have worked, especially off of THE INITIATIVE or whatnot. But that ship has long sailed. Now I really don't think retailers or the mainstream audience care about the YA or Heinberg in droves. I mean, it isn't like his last WONDER WOMAN issue lit the charts aflame.

Sean McKeever, Zeb Wells, Chrisos Gage, Ed Brubaker, hell, even Chris Yost, all probably could have handled the series fine enough.

Instead, Marvel chose a compromise between a few bad options. By only spitting out aimless mini's to "keep them alive", it merely highlights how inessential they are. They rank no higher than, say, MARVEL APES or TERROR, INC.

http://twitter.com/allanheinberg/status/12077716700

Hahaha, I'll believe that when I see an issue on the stands for $3.99. Y'know, because I expect Marvel to reward whatever patient fans have waited 4 years for this by charging them as much as possible, the greedy dinks. :p

He'll write 5-6 issues and expect to be treated like a king for them. Cheung will need about 17 months lead in time just to release a bimonthly on schedule. Expect this to be a sales flop. At best the first issue will debut at 35,000 copies and the last will be out of the Top 100 at below 21,000.

[TheCorpulent1]

it seems like most people here don't like Heinberg. why not? I loved his first run. I like it about 4 trillion times better than anything McKeever has ever written.
What he's written of the Young Avengers was great. The problem is that it debuted 6 years ago. He then went off to make real money writing for TV--not a bad thing in and of itself. It's the fact that Marvel decided to wait for him to come back that galls me, especially when you consider that he made time to write Wonder Woman while he was still doing his TV work. So the fact that Heinberg didn't prioritize the Young Avengers enough to do anything with them for over half a decade and the fact that Marvel is indulging him by sitting around twiddling their thumbs until he deigns to return are what bug me about this situation. I understand respecting a creator's prerogative to write the story he envisioned, but at the end of the day, Marvel owns the characters and can--and should--give them to someone else if the creator hasn't shown that he's willing to play ball for a reasonable amount of time--which, in my opinion, would be far less than 6 years.

[Kevin]

I really wouldn't be surprised if Interest in the book dies because of the gaps. I will be surprised if I hear...

MARVEL: Sells for the book just wasn't enough for the book to be maintained monthly. The fans have voted with their pockets and there are no plans for the book in the near future.

[NightBeetle]

@ Cup 'o Joe
(http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=25808)
http://i42.tinypic.com/5uiwrm.jpg

Allan Heinberg appeared on video to announce "Avengers: The Children's Crusade" – the follow up to "Young Avengers" by the entire original creative team including artist Jimmy Cheung. The bi-monthly, nine-issue limited series has seen six issues written already, and Heinberg promised that a cataclysmic event involving Wiccan forces him to find the Scarlet Witch and try to redeem her. He will find her, and the series will not only include the full cast of the Young Avengers as well as all the other Avengers teams from the A-Vengers to the New Avenges but members of the mutant community. The story will build on plot threads from "House of M" on through today, and the writer was excited to present new, unseen interactions between characters.

[RockSP]

especially when you consider that he made time to write Wonder Woman while he was still doing his TV work.

Well it's not like his WW run was smooth sailing either.

[Kevin]

Well it's not like his WW run was smooth sailing either.
Which makes it even funnier/sadder/upsetting.

[Iron Man]

Looks good, but I'll only believe it when I'm holding the issue in my hands. I wonder why Iron Man's wearing his now old armour on that cover.

[TheCorpulent1]

Heinberg addressed that in the interview: They started work on the series 2 years ago, so rather than taking even more time to change those details, the costumes will just remain outdated.

[Iron Man]

Oh right. 2 years ago? They started work on a 9-issue series two years ago and they're not even finished? How is it possible to go that slow?

[TheCorpulent1]

Heinberg probably wasn't doing much work on it since he prioritizes his TV work higher and treats comic-writing as little more than a hobby. Cheung's also a super-slow artist. He mentioned in the interview that, even though they apparently started working on the series 2 years ago and it's going to be bimonthly, he's still not actually done drawing it yet.

Basically, neither of the creators got their s*** together for this series until just recently, it seems.

[Iron Man]

It's a shame...the YA could hold up their own ongoing under the right (and timely) team.

[TheCorpulent1]

Maybe once The Children's Crusade is over, Marvel will realize that.

[Scarecrow_King]

slightly off topic, but whats Brian K. Vaughn doing right now? after his work on Runaways, I'd like to see him handle these guys. if he could handle both books at the same time, I would be one happy fanboy. sad that it'll probably never happen, though.

[Darthphere]

Hollywood ate him as well.

[Darthphere]

You know, I love Young Avengers and I was gonna trade wait this ***** out but by the looks of it, I'll be getting the trade 4 years from now.

[TheCorpulent1]

We'll probably only get the final issues 3 and a half years from now ourselves, knowing Heinberg's flakiness and Cheung's slowness.

[Darthphere]

How can two people be so slow at the same time? I mean, they have deadlines in Hollywood right?

[TheCorpulent1]

Cheung ain't in Hollywood. He's just on Marvel's payroll, and Marvel likes to ignore deadlines and forget about fill-in artists because they happen to be run by an artist.

[CaptainCanada]

How can two people be so slow at the same time? I mean, they have deadlines in Hollywood right?
Well, yes, but Heinberg has to meet those deadlines too (and he gets paid a lot more to do it).

He's written five of the nine issues so far, and I think he's said he'd like to have the rest done by July, but given that #9 isn't due until November 2011, he has considerable space to miss that goal.

[Darthphere]

Yeah, the thing is, he's written five scripts, but Cheung hasn't even started drawing them.

[spark627]

Yeah, the thing is, he's written five scripts, but Cheung hasn't even started drawing them.

Not true, Cheung has drawn a few issues already, hence the incorrect outfits for Iron Man and Cap

[Darthphere]

He has not drawn a few issues. If anything, he's drawn a couple of pages, and a few covers/promo pieces like the one we have.

[CaptainCanada]

He has not drawn a few issues. If anything, he's drawn a couple of pages, and a few covers/promo pieces like the one we have.
If that was all he had done, it would be fairly easy to change the costumes.

[TheCorpulent1]

I imagine it'd still be fairly easy to change the costumes, they just can't be bothered to do it.

[CaptainCanada]

Though given the 17-month release schedule, this series will probably end up a somewhat awkward fit for continuity anyway - stuff's inevitably going to change with at least some of the guest stars in that timeframe.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'd be happy if they just claim it takes place right after Siege and whoever winds up writing the Young Avengers one-shots to fill the inevitable gaps while we're waiting for issues of The Children's Crusade to come out treats the team as if The Children's Crusade is already over for them.

[spark627]

He has not drawn a few issues. If anything, he's drawn a couple of pages, and a few covers/promo pieces like the one we have.

Considering how cautious Marvel has been about announcing this before Heinberg/Cheung were ready, I don't think they would announce a July release if only a few pages were done... and again, they would have edited the costumes.

[Darthphere]

Considering how cautious Marvel has been about announcing this before Heinberg/Cheung were ready, I don't think they would announce a July release if only a few pages were done... and again, they would have edited the costumes.

You have far too much faith in Marvel editorial.

[Anubis]

you have far too much faith in marvel editorial.

qft

[ImWithTeamConan]

Okay so I know nothing about how the art is produced, but would it be possible for Cheung to change the costumes in "post-production"?

[spideyboy_1111]

.... no. dude there drawings, that are digitized and colored on a computer, then printed out.

no way can you just do a simple "costume swap"

[TheCorpulent1]

Cheung could always change the original pencils and then they could redo the coloring. Since it's all digital, it probably doesn't take that long. You never hear about inkers or colorists who can't manage to finish 22 pages in a month, let alone the 2 months this series will have per issue.

[spideyboy_1111]

as an artist who does both traditional and digital art.... its not that easy...

you guys are complaining cheung is taking to long as is... wanting him to change and redo the costumes would just add alot of extra considerable time to that.

[TheCorpulent1]

I never said it was easy, just that it doesn't take as long as penciling. It just seems weird that they apparently have so much art done that it's not feasible to change the costumes, yet the series is bimonthly and Cheung is still not done. :huh:

[spideyboy_1111]

well it honestly depends on what you want changed... if it's slight tweaks vs re-hauling the entire costume...

if it's an entire re-haul, the whole character needs redrawn. and that indeed takes a long time. it's not like there barbies or paper dolls and you can instantly change there costume.

[TheCorpulent1]

I never said that part would be easy either. But it's possible and, more to the point, it has precedent: George Perez redrew Kyle Rayner's costume in JLA vs. Avengers after the first issue had already been entirely penciled and inked.

Either way, though, it's a moot point. They've already said they're not changing the costumes.

[spideyboy_1111]

yeah, cheung is way to slow for anyone really wanting him to go back and change anything

[Mogwai]

i love cheung's depictions of the YA. i'll wait for him.

[spideyboy_1111]

i do love cheung's art a bunch, just wish he was faster

[Mogwai]

^yeah, he's another jim lee.

[Dread]

A story that waited 4 years, and they won't even get the costumes right?

This product, to me, tells you everything you need to know about Marvel. They are clearly a company that does not respect their medium, because they allow a TV writer to literally bring a "work for hire" franchise to a stand still for as long as George Bush's second term simply because he is busy with his "real job". The YOUNG AVENGERS sell in the pits now, and I would bet that this series won't sell where it was in 2005, even at $4 an issue. It will be lucky to debut at 45k and will dwindle every week, and likely finish at the bottom of the Top 100. It is a story that should have been done by another writer with Heinberg's notes credited via a "co-plotter" credit sometime in 2007, at latest. No one gives a rat's patootie about HOUSE OF M anymore except for Bendis and Heinberg. This is the same Marvel that has fought tooth and nail in the courts to deny due royalties to a slew of creators over the "work for hire" motto and then they turn around and literally put YA on hold for Heinberg all these years? They just **** fans along with all those mini's and one shots, including from last week, that amount to nothing?

It also shows that Marvel has no respect for their fans. The same fans they jerked around with ULTIMATE WOLVERINE VS. HULK. The same fans they feel will flock to DOCTOR VOODOO at $4. The fans should be so happy that this 4 years late storyline is coming that that they won't care that the costumes or continuity is all wrong. What, does Heinberg think he and Cheung were writing ****ing WATCHMEN!?

I really, really, really, really, REALLY should not be bothering with this. But then again, I shouldn't have bothered reading SIEGE, either. Which is why when Marvel does this, I can see the reason. Every time Marvel bets that their fans are ignorant fools who will be grateful for whatever slop they get, whether good or bad, they're always right.

[ImWithTeamConan]

Soooooooo, you're...not going to read it?

[Dread]

Soooooooo, you're...not going to read it?

I will, and then hate myself for being a gullible sucker all the way through. :o

[ImWithTeamConan]

Well kudos to you sir for being honest.

[Scarecrow_King]

They just **** fans along with all those mini's and one shots, including from last week, that amount to nothing?


I'm still trying to figure out what verb could possibly go there. :huh:

[spark627]

A story that waited 4 years, and they won't even get the costumes right?

This product, to me, tells you everything you need to know about Marvel. They are clearly a company that does not respect their medium, because they allow a TV writer to literally bring a "work for hire" franchise to a stand still for as long as George Bush's second term simply because he is busy with his "real job". The YOUNG AVENGERS sell in the pits now, and I would bet that this series won't sell where it was in 2005, even at $4 an issue. It will be lucky to debut at 45k and will dwindle every week, and likely finish at the bottom of the Top 100. It is a story that should have been done by another writer with Heinberg's notes credited via a "co-plotter" credit sometime in 2007, at latest. No one gives a rat's patootie about HOUSE OF M anymore except for Bendis and Heinberg. This is the same Marvel that has fought tooth and nail in the courts to deny due royalties to a slew of creators over the "work for hire" motto and then they turn around and literally put YA on hold for Heinberg all these years? They just **** fans along with all those mini's and one shots, including from last week, that amount to nothing?

It also shows that Marvel has no respect for their fans. The same fans they jerked around with ULTIMATE WOLVERINE VS. HULK. The same fans they feel will flock to DOCTOR VOODOO at $4. The fans should be so happy that this 4 years late storyline is coming that that they won't care that the costumes or continuity is all wrong. What, does Heinberg think he and Cheung were writing ****ing WATCHMEN!?

I really, really, really, really, REALLY should not be bothering with this. But then again, I shouldn't have bothered reading SIEGE, either. Which is why when Marvel does this, I can see the reason. Every time Marvel bets that their fans are ignorant fools who will be grateful for whatever slop they get, whether good or bad, they're always right.

Who said the minis and one-shots count for nothing? I think Heinberg said he is aware of all of that and will have the story reflect it.

[Scarecrow_King]

I kinda wish he'd ignore them. I hate reading useless tie-ins and team ups done by creative teams that had nothing to do with the original series. and usually those tie-ins are only tangentially related to the big events that they're tying themselves in to. as much as i LOVE the characters, I can't bring myself to spend the money on them.

[Dread]

Well kudos to you sir for being honest.

I do try to be.

I'm still trying to figure out what verb could possibly go there. :huh:

It begins with "d" and rhymes with "ick". ;)

Who said the minis and one-shots count for nothing? I think Heinberg said he is aware of all of that and will have the story reflect it.

I said because, let's be blunt, most if not all of the Young Avengers mini's and one shot's really haven't done much if anything to advance the characters beyond where they ended in YA #12. That issue ended with Eli and Kate having a relationship, and by and large they still are (and it is still awkward). Teddy seemingly got to meet his father Capt. Marvel, only it wasn't Mar-Vell, but a Skrull, who died. About all that has happened to Speed since is he ran into a girl he knew from juvie, and he happens to try hard to save people when he has to (YA: SIEGE). Kate apparently was class mates with (young) Executioner, who is the son of Princess Python (DARK REIGN: YA), a minor villain. Wiccan was trying to limit his outings as a hero, but has since abandoned that.

Stature and Vision have had the most fleshing, and what have we really learned? They're a couple now, but that is where they were heading as of YA #12. Vision likes to be called "Jonas". Stature is often level headed, at least compared with most of the Mighty Avengers. She still values her friendship with the Fantastic Four.

And while that is all handy for people who write Handbook Bio's, it really isn't major stuff. I left out two team-up's with the Runaways, since that really doesn't matter. They were in a few brawls, like Civil War or Secret Invasion, but again, those are details. Aside for that, they've been frozen in development limbo for most of the last four years, because apparently Marvel felt Heinberg was the only writer who could be allowed to handle them "for real". The result? Retailers and readers, methinks, saw their last few mini's and one shots as "not being important" and that is why sales have fallen off. I mean, not even a Brubaker one shot sold well.

I imagine we will read these issues, and think, "Not bad. But was this really beyond the skills of Zeb Wells? Or Sean McKeever? Or Chris Yost?" And, barring an Eisner award winning spectacle, I doubt it will be. Allen Heinberg's not all that, at least not to me, at least not anymore. All this is to me is yet another YA mini, only this time, "it counts", which is basically what the C2E2 promotion is saying. And isn't that an insult to all of the writers who did all those mini's, and handed in scripts on time? Hell, even Cheung kept showing up for covers within those four years. Heinberg couldn't even proof-read a script during the Writer's Strike.

My prediction is this will sell better than the last few YA materials, but not near the 60,000 copy average that their last ongoing averaged by the end. And Marvel will wonder why.

[TheCorpulent1]

I kinda wish he'd ignore them. I hate reading useless tie-ins and team ups done by creative teams that had nothing to do with the original series. and usually those tie-ins are only tangentially related to the big events that they're tying themselves in to. as much as i LOVE the characters, I can't bring myself to spend the money on them.
I'd be annoyed if he ignored them. Contrary to whatever Joe Q's coddling and Heinberg's ego are telling Heinberg, the characters exist in a shared universe and are owned by Marvel, meaning anything Marvel publishes with them is valid as part of their canon.

[NightBeetle]

http://i39.tinypic.com/2s93wio.jpg

AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE #1 (of 9)
Written by ALLAN HEINBERG
Pencils & Cover by JIM CHEUNG
Women of Marvel Variant by JELENA-KEVIC DJURDJEVIC
The Young Avengers return in an epic, bi-monthly Marvel maxi-series by series creators Allan Heinberg and Jim Cheung. When Wiccan's reality-altering powers begin to rival those of the Scarlet Witch, the young hero sets out on a quest to find her that spans the Marvel Universe and pits Wiccan against both the Avengers and the Young Avengers. But will Wiccan's desire to solve the mystery of his parentage be his salvation or his undoing? This self-contained Marvel maxi-series reintroduces and redefines the Young Avengers and the Scarlet Witch for the Heroic Age and is essential reading for any Avengers fan.
32 PGS./Bi-Monthly/Rated T+ …$3.99

[spark627]

I can't believe it is actually happening! I LOVE the cover, it is stunning. So happy to see a Wiccan based story.

[ImWithTeamConan]

DAYUM, Cheung draws a great Wanda.

[spideyboy_1111]

Cheung draws a great everyone....

[Anubis]

Meh.

[Mogwai]

are any of the mini-series featuring the YA worth reading? i have the 2 main tpbs and was just wondering.

[Colossal Spoons]

^Pretty much everything except for Dark Reign: YA. That was boring and pointless, I only bought it to contribute to the franchise. So I'd look into both crossovers with the Runaways.

[TheCorpulent1]

I loves me some Young Avengers and some Paul Cornell, but yeah, Dark Reign: Young Avengers was not very good. It wasn't a bad story or anything, but it focused mostly on the very uninteresting Young Masters and felt pretty pointless when all was said and done.

I'm still deciding whether I'll actually pick up The Children's Crusade. It might be good, but it has like 4 strikes against it before the first issue's even hit the stands--took forever to start, bi-monthly, Cheung's not finished so it'll most likely be delayed even more, it was in development so long that now it has to exist in its own little continuity bubble. Maybe I'll just wait a year or two until it's actually finished and pick up the trade.

[Colossal Spoons]

Corp, I'll buy it for you and mail it to you

[ImWithTeamConan]

Aww, the bromance is taking the next step!

[TheCorpulent1]

Corp, I'll buy it for you and mail it to you
Uh... 'kay. Kind of weird, but I'm not one to turn down free comics. :awesome:

[Colossal Spoons]

I just wanna show Marvel there's a demand for the franchise. I'll buy the next 5 people to reply copies too :o

[TheCorpulent1]

Spoons is rolling in dough, apparently. Quick, someone rob his ass!

[Havok83]

I miss Iron Lad. I hope he returns though I doubt it

[RockSP]

The grown up version will definitely show up. Heh heh.

[ImWithTeamConan]

Since Corp doesn't count, I'm third!

Yay!!!!!!!!

[Colossal Spoons]

Gather 'round, kids

[Mogwai]

i think i'm just going to pick up 'young avengers presents.'

[Colossal Spoons]

I forgot all about those solo books. Some were good and some were mediocre, but I hope you enjoy.

[ImWithTeamConan]

Am I the only one happy about a free copy of YA:TCC?

Geez people, show some enthusiasm.