Official Young Avengers Discussion Thread

[TheCorpulent1]

Enthusiasm is for fans of a less cynical medium than comics. :o

[Colossal Spoons]

Haha

[ImWithTeamConan]

like........

[Anubis]

Beanie Baby collecting.

[ImWithTeamConan]

:awesome::awesome::awesome:

[Scarecrow_King]

This is something I definitely wanna read, but since it's not current continuity, I'm thinking I'll just wait for the inevitable hardback that'll sit nicely next to the first one I have on my shelf.

that is, unless Spoons is mailing these things out for free. :oldrazz:

[Dread]

I loves me some Young Avengers and some Paul Cornell, but yeah, Dark Reign: Young Avengers was not very good. It wasn't a bad story or anything, but it focused mostly on the very uninteresting Young Masters and felt pretty pointless when all was said and done.

I'm still deciding whether I'll actually pick up The Children's Crusade. It might be good, but it has like 4 strikes against it before the first issue's even hit the stands--took forever to start, bi-monthly, Cheung's not finished so it'll most likely be delayed even more, it was in development so long that now it has to exist in its own little continuity bubble. Maybe I'll just wait a year or two until it's actually finished and pick up the trade.

DARK REIGN: YOUNG AVENGERS was a misfire to me. It had some moments but I agree it was not terribly good. It focused too much on the Young Masters, but they weren't all that interesting. Frankly, the "Bastards of Evil" from YOUNG ALLIES sound cooler.

9 issues on a bi-monthly schedule; that's 18 months to see completion. Now I could understand Alex Ross taking two years of our time with JUSTICE; he paints, and he's a high profile talent, the sort who can ask for absurd indulgences. I don't think Heinberg or Cheung are. Besides...very, very few stories are worth nine chapters. I have yet to read a story that was 9 chapters written at any point this century that was worth all nine chapters, that didn't seem at least 1-3 issues too long. Hell, I've read my share of 6 part arcs that felt needlessly long. :p

Although it may just be 9 issues as 9 issues, not as one long arc, but who knows. I do ask...why does Wolverine, out of all mutants or Avengers give a damn about finding Scarlet Witch? It actually would make more sense if Heinberg canonized X-MEN: FIRST CLASS a bit and had Archangel tag along, since supposedly they dated briefly as teenagers. :dry:

[Colossal Spoons]

Dread, Wolverine is just there to gut Wanda when they find her :up:

[Scarecrow_King]

the new Vision has the same programming as the original, right? maybe he and Wanda will have more fake babies.

[TheCorpulent1]

The new Vision has the data of the old Vision, but the brain engrams of Iron Lad, a.k.a. Kang, instead of Wonder Man. He remembers the things the original Vision did, but dispassionately, like an observer who witnessed the original Vision's entire life without feeling anything about it. He's a different person and I think he's already mentioned that he's not attracted to Wanda.

[Scarecrow_King]

ah, thanks Corp. its been a while since I've read the original run, but I think i'm gonna go back and do that this weekend. get stoked for TCC.

[ImWithTeamConan]

Didn't Vision get separated from Iron Lad in Mighty Avengers though?

[TheCorpulent1]

No. They were never joined to begin with. Vision 2.0's mind was just built on the brain engrams of Iron Lad, the same way the original Vision's mind was built on the brain engrams of Wonder Man, Jocasta's was built on those of the Wasp, and Ultron's was built on those of Hank Pym. None of the synthetic characters are in any way linked to the organic ones except that their personalities used the organic characters' personalities as an initial springboard. They're all very much their own beings because they have their own unique experiences and their minds don't work in the same way.

[Colossal Spoons]

Corp everybody, Nerd Supreme :D

[TheCorpulent1]

Thank you. And may I remind you that we're all posting on a website dedicated to comics and superheroes for hours per day. :o

[Colossal Spoons]

I can take the title away if you don't want it! Ungrateful Supreme :mad:

[Darthphere]

He's actually Geek Supreme as Nerd Supreme would imply that he's intelligent and not just pathetic for knowing that much about comics.

Not judging or anything.

[Darthphere]

Just sayin'

[Colossal Spoons]

Thanks for the clarification. You are The Clarificator

[ImWithTeamConan]

No. They were never joined to begin with. Vision 2.0's mind was just built on the brain engrams of Iron Lad, the same way the original Vision's mind was built on the brain engrams of Wonder Man, Jocasta's was built on those of the Wasp, and Ultron's was built on those of Hank Pym. None of the synthetic characters are in any way linked to the organic ones except that their personalities used the organic characters' personalities as an initial springboard. They're all very much their own beings because they have their own unique experiences and their minds don't work in the same way.

...............what? :doh:

Clarificator, care to...clarify?

[Anubis]

I don't think it can be explained any clearer than that.

[ImWithTeamConan]

You know, I reread it, and it's actually quite simple... my bad.

[TheCorpulent1]

He's actually Geek Supreme as Nerd Supreme would imply that he's intelligent and not just pathetic for knowing that much about comics.

Not judging or anything.
I would punch anyone who suggests I'm intelligent in the groin. :up:

[NightBeetle]

Heinberg Leads The "Children's Crusade" (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=26639)

http://i47.tinypic.com/rbfm2s.jpg

They say youth is wasted on the young, but in the case of Marvel Comics (http://marvel.com/) Young Avengers franchise, keeping the teenage versions of Earth's Mightiest Heroes in high school has been a boon for getting more stories into the Marvel U. Since their introduction in 2005, Wiccan, Patriot, Hulking and the rest of the next generation heroes have kept a stable foot in the publisher's biggest events even as fans of that first book have waited for co-creators Allan Heinberg and Jimmy Cheung to return to the team full time. That wait finally ends on July 8 with "Avengers: The Children's Crusade" – an nine-issue, bi-monthly comic that's part and parcel of Marvel's Heroic Age branding. the writer and artist spoke to CBR about the series in April (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=25813), and today, Marvel set up another of its "Next Big Thing" conference calls (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=26639#) for members of the press to talk to Heinberg and VP Executive Editor Tom Brevoort about the series, and CBR News is on hand LIVE! to bring you constant updates from the call. So scroll on for all the news, and remember to keep refreshing (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=26639#) your browser for more on "Avengers: The Children's Crusade."


The call started with some importance being placed on the Scarlet Witch. "We're looking for the Scarlet Witch, essentiall," Heinberg said. "We try to figure out where she is and what happened to her and whether or not she's able to rejoin the Marvel Universe." "We've hinted and teased and messed around with this in the past," said Brevoort before confirming. "We are going to find her...her whereabouts and circumstances and all surrounding her...will form the backbone and the spine of this story." He added that "we'll discover where she's been, what she's up to" and "all the boot-quaking potential" she holds for the heroes in the universe."


"It feels very much like we just picked up where we left off creatively," the writer said of his collaboration with Cheung. Brevoort jumped in to joke, "It doesn't feel like much of a reunion because we've been working on this for two years now." He added that Cheung is in the fourth issue of pencils while Heinberg has scripted through issue six and that they're "relatively confident (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=26639#)" the series will ship on its bi-monthly schedule. Heinberg is keeping the panel count per page down to give Cheung breathing room, especially considering a large cast that involves the Young Avengers, the Avengers, the X-Men and more. "We're walking a fine line here."


As for the setting and role of the book in the larger Marvel Universe, Brevoort said, "There's a point we've been making in every single conversation we've had publicly about the project: 'Children's Crusade' is set 'right now' in the Marvel Universe. It is the post-Siege, Heroic Age Marvel Universe...HOWEVER because we began work on this book about two years ago, we had to take the best educated guess we could as to where certain elements shake out, and over the course of two years some things are in a slightly different place now." The major issues of change were different costumes for Tony Stark and Steve Rogers, but Brevoort promised that by the end of nine issues an explanation would be made for these changes, and they would be reconciled in the story just as the story would create waves in other modern Marvel books. "We though it would be better to get the books out, and this is the price you pay."

The final status of Scarlet Witch and who she would side with came up with Brevoort saying too many questions existed now to know for sure including "Is she going to be anywhere at the end of this? Is she going to be in any shape at the end of this? Has she been pulling strings in the Marvel Universe for months?" He did say that a number of villains would be looking to draw the Witch to their side. "There are at least two world-class, you'd recognize them if you saw them on a street, villainous characters that are involved in the course of the series. I think one of them is relatively obvious, and the other is less so."
Heinberg added that one element from Brian Michael Bendis' "House of M" story that would play in would be how the Scarlet Witch's existence tears the expectations for heroes and villains apart. "The idea of Wanda and what she represents and the enormous amount of power she wields sort of calls into question who's a hero and who's a villain in the Marvel Universe." For example, Magneto operating as a concerned father and new member of the X-Men will shift fan perception of the character while the conflict impacts the Young Avengers growing sense of self.

[Kevin]

Yea, A story that will take almost two years to tell. No thank you.

[Harlekin]

Meh.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm inclined to echo that sentiment at this point. If it were a monthly, I might've picked it up. But we wait about 5 years for this, only to get the news that it'll take another 2 years and change just to get all 9 issues? F*** that. Maybe I'll pick up the trade, but it's far likelier that I'll just ignore this and wait for whatever happens after the Young Avengers are finally free from Heinberg's grubby paws.

[kguillou]

Wait, did it say it will take two years to do this or were they already working on it for two years? I read it as the latter.

[Kevin]

9 issues, Bi-monthly = 18 months. Almost 2 years.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yep. Get ready to wait. Or, given that this is Young Avengers, just keep on waiting like you have been for half a decade.

[kguillou]

Oooh ok. Yeah that sucks indeed. If they've been working on it for two then why hasn't Cheung already drawn the freakin thing?

[TheCorpulent1]

Maybe Heinberg hasn't been giving him scripts until recently. Dude's been working on TV shows.

[Dread]

Even with a schedule of 1 issue every 2 months for 18 months, I bet it will STILL run late.

The last mini that had a similar schedule that I read for as long was JUSTICE, which was entertaining but probably not worth the 2 year wait to finish. I doubt this will be, either.

Saving the resolution of the Scarlet Witch storyline to Heinberg was a huge, huge mistake. The squandering of the YA was a bigger one. Their SIEGE one shot actually sold decently, but one has to keep in mind retailers were given little information about those SIEGE one shots until right about when they ordered, so they were just going in blind. For the record, SIEGE:YOUNG AVENGERS from April was the lowest selling of the five, selling just under 44k for a $3 one shot. The SECRET WARRIORS one shot outsold it, which perhaps is telling. If one assumes that the first issue of this series debuts around that number, that means that by 2012, the last issues might be somewhere at 20k. That is if you rationally look at sales and make logical expectations, which almost no one at Marvel does now.

[TheCorpulent1]

Unlettered preview of Young Avengers: The Children's Crusade #1 (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=26750)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/thecorpulent1/prv5491_pg7.jpg

[Mogwai]

cheung's work is amazing.

[Dread]

So amazing it is worth a 5 year wait, and 2 years to complete this story? I'm not sure. A lot of it is also amazing inking and color work. Cheung's a good artist when he is on.

I probably will begrudgingly get this, but I don't think it will deliver, and I think Marvel were fools for waiting so long to resolve this story, especially since Heinberg has, quite literally, run horribly late on every single comic project he has written alone. The only one that shipped on time was an arc of JLA that he wrote alongside Geoff Johns, who I imagined carried a bit of the load. There are plenty of other writers who could have resolved this storyline, and I think Marvel waited too long for the franchise to cool.

None of that is Cheung's fault, although it is telling that they have to keep outdated costumes on because, well, having him redraw stuff would probably delay things another few years...

If this is the storyline that ends M-Day, then M-Day is going to last until 2012. :o

[Colossal Spoons]

cheung's work is amazing.

That is is

[TheCorpulent1]

So amazing it is worth a 5 year wait, and 2 years to complete this story? I'm not sure.
I am. It's not. :)

[Dread]

I am. It's not. :)

Yeah, probably not. But I'm partisan on buying it as of now. It may depend on how big a week it's debut week is. If it's one of those "5 books or less" weeks, it has a chance. If it debuts in one of those 10 comic wallet busters, than probably not.

[TheCorpulent1]

It's definitely not on my buy list. If anything, I may pick it up as a trade in a couple years in anticipation of whatever comes next for the Young Avengers when they're finally free of Heinberg's stranglehold.

[Dread]

It's definitely not on my buy list. If anything, I may pick it up as a trade in a couple years in anticipation of whatever comes next for the Young Avengers when they're finally free of Heinberg's stranglehold.

The thing is, did Heinberg demand to have that stranglehold in place, or did Marvel editorial foolishly decide on it, and thus ruined what was once a thriving B-Level franchise due to neglect? Either way, it's been woefully mishandled, which is a shame.

[The Geek Vault]

I'll try to pick it up but most likely be getting the full run on trade

[TheCorpulent1]

The thing is, did Heinberg demand to have that stranglehold in place, or did Marvel editorial foolishly decide on it, and thus ruined what was once a thriving B-Level franchise due to neglect? Either way, it's been woefully mishandled, which is a shame.
Who cares? Either way, their handling of the situation has convinced me neither of them deserves my money.

[spideyboy_1111]

i actually really liked the first issue... it's nice to get everything back finally.. the feel as a whole is as if they never had a long break so i give them props for that. I really hope the full 9 issues pans out to be worth the wait.

also really love how there handling Billy and Teddy... Heinbergs really the only writer who bothers to develop there relationship.

[Dread]

My review with re-spoilers:

AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE #1: May as well get this out of the way first. The short end of it is that as a comic this isn't so bad, but as an idea it has become a symbol of everything that is wrong with comics in general and the Joe Quesada, sans Jemas, era of Marvel in particular. You have shameless pandering to a disinterested, arrogant Hollywood talent. You have the fans who are stupidly loyal being ripped off and suckered at every turn. You have a once hot franchise that has now become a footnote due to editorial mismanagement that has lasted a full Presidential term's worth of time. And above all, you have a comic that is late that is being treated as if one should be happy it was even released at all. No, it isn't quite as bad as the Lindeloff ULTIMATE WOLVERINE VS. HULK debacle, but then again, that comic didn't hold up two franchises. This did.

On the first page it becomes apparent - the editor is apologizing that artist Jimmy Cheung's costumes for Iron Man and Steve Rogers don't match up. It seems art on this started a long time ago (they say "many months" but I'd guess about 2007), and as late as this is, expecting Cheung to redraw many pages or panels to get it timely would make this thing even later, possibly into the next decade. So the fan is expected to shrug it off. Now, in truth it is a minor thing, and at least it is acknowledged. But there is no apology. There is no, "We are sorry we have dragged this out so long, and we are sorry we are asking for $36 over 18 months for a story that is four years late, but we're greedy, and we see you as ignorant suckers with wallets, and retailers as inconvenient pawns," sort of statement. No, the fan is simply expected to accept something that has been less than professionally produced at the highest price standard. If nothing else, this series shows that Marvel editorial see their fans as the dumbest creatures on the face of the earth, who deserve to be fleeced for all they are worth.

And maybe we are, because I bought this, at least.

To recap: Allen Heinberg and Jim Cheung from 2005-2006 produced a 12 issue run of this series, and an annual. Andrea DiVito filled in art for two issues, and the annual also had art by others. But that is modest; even many of those 12 issues were late, especially the last few issues. After that, fans were promised a "season two" from this team, and Marvel kept promising it was coming. Editorial decided that the Young Avengers as a franchise should go into a lockbox until Heinberg was able to write another arc or two for them again. The problem was this allowed the franchise, which had actually become a modest, B-List hit selling 65k at issue at WORST, to grow stale, ignored, and irrelevant. In the four years since, the YA have existed as one semi-annual mini series after the next. These mini's tended to be obligatory, random, "fleece the suckers" sort of crossover tie ins that matter in no way to the crossover itself. As such, we got one for CIVIL WAR, one for SECRET INVASION, and one for DARK REIGN. We even got a one-shot for SIEGE. Two of them also featured the Runaways, a team that Marvel decided was not as important to keep in a box apart from it's launch creative team of Brian K. Vaughan and Adrian Alphona, and thus other writers and artists were allowed to write them (for better or worse) in important ways. Sure, RUNAWAYS volume 3 got canceled, but they're still a cult hit, and are getting a movie. The Young Avengers are DONE; Marvel just doesn't realize it yet. They may when this debut barely cracks the Top 50 list. And if Marvel is happy that a franchise that was a B-List hit in 2006 is now a D-List bottom feeder with fewer reliable fans than AGENTS OF ATLAS seem to muster, though, then it is still a success. The horrible irony is that while tasked with thankless, irrelevant stories to tell with the YA, some of the writers proved they easily could have taken the franchise over if tasked to, such as Zeb Wells or even Chris Yost (his mini wasn't so bad). Christos Gage could probably have killed on it. But, instead, into the lockbox it went. The only characters that got some sort of emotional development were Stature and Vision II, mostly by being rescued by Dan Slott for a year and change for MIGHTY AVENGERS. Not even an Ed Brubaker issue of YOUNG AVENGERS PRESENTS broke 35k sales once; that should be a disturbing sign.

This issue, ironically, makes it seem very clear how new and raw these characters are. They are at least 5 years old, and many of them are still stuck in stock cipher mode. Some of the dialog feels interchangeable or stereotypical (Speed, who is Pietro Lite, is there for every snide one liner). I'd argue Maria Hill and Agent Brand have grown more in three years than this lot have in a half decade. Some have criticized this franchise because while the title implies that these are supposed to be the next generation of Avengers, in practice they are, arguably, side-kicks that no heroes want. Stature and Vision II served as Avengers and appeared in many titles, so one can see "Jonas" taking over for "Victor Shade" or even Cassie Lang trying to fill the shoes of her dad or even Giant-Man on occasion. But the rest? Kate Bishop being called Hawkeye despite Barton retaking the name seems sillier than ever. DC once had two Green Arrow's, but we all knew which one was the "real" one, and which was just some dumb kid too stubborn to take a unique name. Hulkling has a retconned legacy (the son of Mar-Vell and Skrull royalty), but his name is misleading in that regard. Besides, Noh-Varr has taken over that role as the next Captain Marvel (as Protector), even if it makes no sense to. If Patriot wants to be the latest Captain America sidekick to be ignored by the genuine article, then he has to join the line behind Jack Flag and Free Spirit, and ahead of Rikki Barnes.

The story focuses on the Young Avengers taking on some Sons of the Serpent terrorists, and things get heated when Hulkling provokes one of the bigots by being both an alien, and a homosexual. Wiccan lets loose with a burst of his power, saving everyone from a dirty bomb but rendering all of the terrorists comatose. This concerns the adult Avengers on scene (Iron Man, Rogers, and Ms. Marvel), who don't want Wiccan to become the next Scarlet Witch. A summary of HOUSE OF M is given, which is good because that was five years ago. Wiccan believes that he and his brother Tommy are in fact the lost children of Wanda in spirit, if not biologically. The adults claim that Wanda is missing and can't be found, which is actually a bit of a lie; Clint Barton found her, and ****ed her, but didn't get any answers out of her. Dr. Strange was told this, but apparently he and Clint kept that bit secret. The adults want to "test" Wiccan and keep an eye on him. Ultimately, the Young Avengers stand together and decide to set out to find Wanda and settle things, once and for all. Wiccan wants to see if Wanda can be redeemed by this knowledge to undo M-Day; Stature wants to see if Wanda will resurrect her father like she did to Barton; Hulkling loves Wiccan and will see anything he does to the end; Speed things Wiccan is daft but wants to help in his own way, and the rest of the team is just there to be loyal and friendly. It is worth noting that Dan Slott wrote Stature as being genuinely vengeful towards Wanda, and likely would have fought her if they met, which to me seemed more natural. What, just because Wanda is pretty, she can murder a heroine's father and be shown endless compassion?

The issue with the costumes actually isn't a big deal. The problem is some of Cap's dialog at times makes me wonder if he is supposed to be Rogers or Barnes; I assume Rogers, but then why is Rogers wanting to make a flight competition with Wiccan? Wiccan and Hulkling seem to be the focus of this story, and while I thought their interaction with each other was great, I do wonder what their personalities are beyond "being gay". Teddy is more aggressive, although Wiccan can be more so when provoked. Their relationship is treated with a bit of maturity, and isn't full of vulgar stuff or cliches, but I do wonder if Heinberg seriously believes that it alone counts as character details in 2010. Wiccan is hesitant about things, but when he settles on things, he is determined. Teddy I suppose is the supportive type, as despite his Kree strength he isn't overly aggressive like his name would imply. And it is hard for it to be a major plot point that Billy and Tommy MUST be twins because they look alike, when Cheung usually makes a lot of faces similar (it is like a story where there are twins in a Mark Bagley comic). Aside for that the art is good, with some great inkwork and colors that make it pop.

In many ways the cover alone has some quirks. It is worth mentioning that Marvel no longer has faith in the YOUNG AVENGERS title, even for their own stories. Thus, AVENGERS is front and center. That alone is telling, an admission of their mishandling. Whether retailers will be fooled, or just order this like yet another YA mini, is unknown. Wolverine and Spider-Man are also in the cover and they have absolutely nothing to do with the story (while Ms. Marvel, who does, is absent from the cover). Spider-Man's only technical appearance is during Iron Man's holographic recap of House of M; Wolverine's just there as a draw.

In truth this actually isn't so bad at all. The dialog isn't bad and there's a lot of action at the start. Some of the interactions flow and feel natural. I actually do like how the relationship between Billy and Teddy is handled overall. That said, I don't think this is worth $4 an issue, and if I may be so blunt, I don't think Allen Heinberg was the only writer in the known universe who could have written an issue under the premise of, "and now the kids go find Wanda" that came out at least like this. If this is where this was all going, then Marvel could have credited Heinberg as a co-plotter/creator and had another writer handle it at least two years ago. In truth not only have the YA been in limbo, but perhaps the X-Men as well. Wanda is needed to end the M-Day storyline, which for five years has skipped from one over-hyped anti-climax to the next and stifled the franchise. If M-Day has to last for at least another 18 months, that means it would be late 2011 by the time the X-Men can finally see some light at the end of the tunnel, and six years is a very long time to invest in a failure of a status quo. Not even Brubaker's run on CAPTAIN AMERICA has yet lasted six entire years (that anniversary comes in November). If Marvel seriously believes that X-Men fans will be happy that the end of a 3 year series of crossovers ends in an anti-climax before a pointless vampire brawl, then they don't deserve them. Those fans should seriously start reading INVINCIBLE or something.

I digress. In execution, this comic isn't so bad. I do like the ploy to try to find and redeem Wanda. The last page has Magneto show up, and I am curious how this will tie into things. The art is good and it did feel like those YA comics of old that got some people jazzed up. I just think that the magic that Heinberg does with the script isn't as unique as Marvel believes, and this may be too little, too late, at too high a price, coming out at too slow a rate. The question for YA fans is, it is worth paying $36 across 18 months until 2011 to resolve a story that was promised in 2006, and was at best overdue by 2008. It is possible I could be wrong, this becomes an EISNER winner and sells as well as SECRET AVENGERS #1 did. But the yoke of all of the problems of this franchise - the lateness, the five year abandonment of it's creator, the years of futile promises, the price tag, the schedule - is there to bring it down a peg. Still not bad, though.

To add, it would be nice if the kids did some research so they could call the Avengers on their hypocrisy involving Wiccan and Wanda, even. For instance, THE CROSSING still happened - and that was a story in which Iron Man went mad and killed quite a few of his friends. Sure, Kang/Immortus was behind it, and HEROES REBORN magically fixed it. But, still. That was before Iron Man went power mad again during and after CIVIL WAR. It was Cap and Iron Man who decided the Sentry was worth gambling on, and he proved to consistently be a psychotic demi-god who slaughtered many in Ohio. And one might even say that HOUSE OF M only happened because the Avengers had decided the only way to help Wanda was to execute her (these are the same Avengers who never executed Kang, or Red Skull, or any actual villains) and even then, she refused to kill any of them for good aside for Jack Of Hearts and Scott Lang. That's like if the Justice League decided they needed to kill Zatanna to stop her from mind-wiping people, and even after that she refused to kill any of them except for Rocket Red.

It actually would be interesting if there was a story or stories where all the young heroes saw their world as a collection of an "Old Boy's Network" and that their lives were usually seen as canon fodder just to deal with one of "their" threats. If Iron Man and Steve Rogers have a fight, all the young heroes are expected to be drafted and fight for their lives over a spat that has nothing to do with them. It's like that bit from SECOND COMING where new characters from the 2000's are expected to die to save Magik, a relic of the 1980's who is thus "more important" and some, like Anole, don't like being in the ghetto. It might be funny if some old time Avengers threat showed up and the adult Avengers once again sought to rally the kids behind them to sacrifice them, and they collectively said, "Y'know what? No, sir. You guys are immortal, you never, ever die. You're the ones who start all these messes. We're the future, but our future never comes. Wolverine will never die. Rogers will never die. Y'know who died? Dwayne Taylor. Microbe. Hornet. They'll NEVER be back, ever ever ever. We're just your infantry, and half of you don't even want to help us, except when you just want our bodies to absorb the first wave of fire. At least Osborn was cynical and honest about how didn't give a damn about our lives if it didn't suit what he wanted. So, y'know what? Fix it yourself. It's hard enough risking our lives for the fights that mean something to us, it becomes suicidal doing so for the fights that matter to you."

And the adult heroes would go, "Fine, ungrateful brats, see if we care!" And then the next time the big event comes, say, Surtur as a cyborg zombie dragon, Cap and Iron Man will do what they usually do; make sure the Young Avengers, Young Allies, and Slingers are right in front. ;)

"I know we don't want you to be heroes nor respect you nor give you any benefit of the doubt. But it's a mass brawl, and we need another 20 for background fodder. C'mon, be an Avenger!"

[TheCorpulent1]

Did Cap go back on supporting the Young Avengers or something? I thought he'd been encouraging them as heroes 100% for a while now.

[Dread]

By "encouraging them", that just means Rogers calls them in for a raid on SIEGE while doing nothing to ever help them when they need it. Rogers would rather various teen side-kick try outs operate isolated and alone rather than take another partner, yet when it's time for a mass battle, he's perfectly happy leading those kids into a fire fight.

- Taking, say, Patriot or Nomad or Jack Flag as his partner - "Heavens no, son! That's too dangerous!"
- Leading a fleet of jailbait canon fodder into a "hell on earth" battle in Oklahoma against an army of super-villains. "Follow me, you're ALL Avengers now!"

Even going back to the New Warrior days, the adult Marvel heroes have a poor record with genuinely helping and embracing young heroes. Even Silverclaw got deported, and she was Jarvis' foreign exchange kid. Nova and Jack Flag had to literally leave earth to do better for themselves, and arguably Darkhawk too. He'd be dead if he'd stayed on earth. Hood would have killed him in some throwaway panel.

Wolverine could literally decapitate a young hero, and no one, not SHIELD or anyone else, holds him responsible. But the mere POSSIBILITY of Wiccan's powers fluxing, and all of a sudden he's top priority. I might add that Wiccan's "unstable" powers were the only thing that saved Hulkling from being beaten to death by the Wrecking Crew in Asgard - a battle Rogers gladly led them into.

I blame a lack of editorial vision, to be honest. AVENGERS ACADEMY is a good first step, but that's more for new original creations, not heroes who've already been around. It's not in character for adult heroes to be so wishy washy about teenage heroes, but it was also out of character for all of them to not give a damn about mutants beyond whatever members were occasionally on their teams for 20 years. There needs to be a little more cohesion and a little more focus on logical character conclusions.

[NightBeetle]

Avengers: Children's Crusade #2 Preview (http://comics.ign.com/articles/111/1112378p1.html)

http://i36.tinypic.com/2j2jp7d.jpg

[NightBeetle]

Avengers: Children's Crusade #2 Preview (http://comics.ign.com/articles/111/1112378p1.html)

http://i36.tinypic.com/2j2jp7d.jpg

[Dread]

Hmm. That does seem a bit awkward. While it may make sense for the Avengers to immediately attack Magneto if he popped up in NYC after being inactive for a while, Wolverine's with them. The same Wolverine on about 3-5 X-Men teams. Doesn't he know Magneto's been working with Cyclops and the X-Men for quite a while lately? He helped defend Utopia from Predator X drones, among other threats to all 200 mutants left alive. He brought Shadowcat back to earth from space, after all, when it seemed neither Mr. Fantastic or Dr. Strange were capable of doing so. Shouldn't Logan at least be telling the Avengers that it may not be so simple as a beat-down?

Then again, at least as revealed in the pages of AVENGERS VS. AGENTS OF ATLAS, Wolverine doesn't tell the Avengers anything about his X-Men adventures, even when it might be useful to avoid needless aggression. And that's the guy Tony Stark DEMANDED be an Avenger, kids!

[runawayboulder]

Yeah but what time frame does this take place in again? Steve is Cap....is it pre-Civil War? Or is it right after SIEGE?:huh:

[Dread]

The pencils were drawn "many months ago", but I am thinking this series began before CIVIL WAR. But in terms of the writing, I think it is supposed to be taking place after SIEGE. So that is supposed to be Rogers there, even if he isn't Capt. America. Jim Cheung wasn't going to redraw pages of material to make the costumes match because the series is already about five years late.

AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE #1 sold at #34 of Diamond's Top 100 comic sellers list for July 2010. Hard numbers are unknown but that implies sales were about 44k-45k, not including any reprints. That's actually quite a bump from where DARK REIGN: YOUNG AVENGERS ended up, by about 10k-20k. Either anticipation for the return of the original creators really was high, Marvel convinced retailers that "this one counts", or removing "YOUNG" from the title confused retailers. At any rate, it'll be interesting to see how it holds up over the 18 months that it will take to finish the tale.

[runawayboulder]

Well I guess if it's directly after SIEGE (like 24-48hrs after), you could buy that since he wasn't set up as Commander Rogers yet.

Still doesn't explain the Wolverine thing. They've been fighting together side by side on Utopia for a minute now.

[Dread]

I think the story is set after SIEGE, but the art is from pre-CIVIL WAR, at least for the first few issues or so.

[TheCorpulent1]

Has Thor appeared at all? Or does he basically get left out of the Avengers line-up, even though Cap and Iron Man are present, because he would've still been dead when this s*** was supposed to come out?

[Dread]

Thor has not appeared at all. The only adult Avengers who have are the Avengers who were New Avengers around Civil War; Iron Man, Cap, Ms. Marvel, and as of issue two, Wolverine, etc. It actually will be REAL awkward if Sentry shows up. Will the dialogue pretend that he's Thor in cosplay? :o

Then again, only one issue has shipped, and this preview didn't have any dialogue or narration boxes.

The narration in the first issue makes it plain that Heinberg has at least edited his script enough that it takes place after SIEGE to a degree. The first issue recap page claimed the artwork was outdated and to forgive the costumes, because us slobs should be happy it's out at all, right?

[Galact-Gal]

Well I guess if it's directly after SIEGE (like 24-48hrs after), you could buy that since he wasn't set up as Commander Rogers yet.

Still doesn't explain the Wolverine thing. They've been fighting together side by side on Utopia for a minute now.



Wolverine still doesn't trust Magneto. In the backup story from last month's Uncanny (Heinberg & Coipel), Magneto found out about the existence of Wiccan & Speed. Mags was asking Cyclops what he knew about them, when Wolverine showed up and warned him off. "Those kids are under our protection." (It took me a minute to realize that by 'our' he meant the Avengers. :)) Anyway, Wolvie basically said he didn't care what Magneto did, he fully expects him to go bad again.

[Specter313]

Yeah but what time frame does this take place in again? Steve is Cap....is it pre-Civil War? Or is it right after SIEGE?:huh:

Another thing to help with the time frame is in the last issue of Uncanny X-Men to come out, Heinberg wrote a back up story where while they were cleaning up after the events of Second Coming, Magneto finally learned about Wiccan and Speed and it was heavily implied that he left the island to search for them even though Cyclops said not too but told him to take time off anyway and that's what led to him showing up at the end of the last issue.

[Dread]

Wolverine still doesn't trust Magneto. In the backup story from last month's Uncanny (Heinberg & Coipel), Magneto found out about the existence of Wiccan & Speed. Mags was asking Cyclops what he knew about them, when Wolverine showed up and warned him off. "Those kids are under our protection." (It took me a minute to realize that by 'our' he meant the Avengers. :)) Anyway, Wolvie basically said he didn't care what Magneto did, he fully expects him to go bad again.

I see. I hadn't read the back-up strip, so...that is interesting.

[TheCorpulent1]

Thor has not appeared at all. The only adult Avengers who have are the Avengers who were New Avengers around Civil War; Iron Man, Cap, Ms. Marvel, and as of issue two, Wolverine, etc. It actually will be REAL awkward if Sentry shows up. Will the dialogue pretend that he's Thor in cosplay? :o

Then again, only one issue has shipped, and this preview didn't have any dialogue or narration boxes.

The narration in the first issue makes it plain that Heinberg has at least edited his script enough that it takes place after SIEGE to a degree. The first issue recap page claimed the artwork was outdated and to forgive the costumes, because us slobs should be happy it's out at all, right?
Awesome. Heinberg & Cheung, taking unprofessionalism to new plateaus.

[Dread]

Awesome. Heinberg & Cheung, taking unprofessionalism to new plateaus.

It would not be a problem if Marvel had not enabled them.

At least Cheung has done artwork during the years since Heinberg was away. He drew interiors for various comics here and there, like THE ILLUMINATI, as well as covers for subsequent YOUNG AVENGERS material. That said, it does show a lack of long term planning that Marvel couldn't have asked him to re-draw some of those pages/panels with Rogers in the wrong suit months ago. Iron Man is in the wrong armor as well, but it's a bit less jarring for Iron Man. Especially since, immediately after SIEGE he was using some old armor before making his newest suit in his own title.

That said, considering this is a $4 a pop bi-monthly, it does stretch professionalism to ask fans to please forgive an error. But, that's the Joe Q era for you. The bullpen is more of a playpen when it comes to pandering to creator demands. Jim Shooter he isn't, for better or worse.

[runawayboulder]

But, that's the Joe Q era for you. The bullpen is more of a playpen when it comes to pandering to creator demands. Jim Shooter he isn't, for better or worse.

No doubt about that. I feel sorry for those guys if the next EIC after Quesada is more Shooter-like. They are gonna be soooooo F-ed!:woot:

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm sure they'll just jump to DC or creator-owned stuff. That's what always happens. Hell, some of the talent Marvel has now was driven there by s***ty editorial policies at DC under Dan DiDio.

[Dread]

If DC was still unable to offer as many lucrative contracts as Marvel seems to, it won't matter. I refuse to believe an EIC who demanded professionalism and accountability with by nature also have to be intolerable to work with or a squasher of creativity. Can't we for once have a medium between extremes? In comics? In politics? In LIFE?

[TheCorpulent1]

Doesn't seem like it.

[Dread]

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/18166.html

Hard numbers are known now. AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE #1 sold 41,808 copies at #34 of the Top 100 for July. It was actually a bad month for comic sales, which fell 12% from July 2009. That almost eliminated sales gains over the last two months (16% gain in May and a 1% gain in June).

Now, I forget about where DARK REIGN: YOUNG AVENGERS debuted, and that was the last mini series based around the franchise (even if in practice it was mostly about the Young Masters). SIEGE: YOUNG AVENGERS #1 in April (another down month) sold 43,886 copies. Which means that, apparently, the original YA creative team returning to the franchise (or reuniting for retailers unable to figure out it was YA under a new name and not another Avengers title) was less of a draw than a random SIEGE one shot. I recall some issues of YOUNG AVENGERS PRESENTS tumbling into the low 25k-30k territory, so if this can avoid that over 18 months, that won't be so bad. I am curious how willing Marvel will be to issue an ongoing again with this team even after Heinberg is finished with them.

Still, a Top 35 debut for a series that has really been in cryogenic freeze since 2005 isn't bad at all.

[hippie_hunter]

If DC was still unable to offer as many lucrative contracts as Marvel seems to, it won't matter. I refuse to believe an EIC who demanded professionalism and accountability with by nature also have to be intolerable to work with or a squasher of creativity. Can't we for once have a medium between extremes? In comics? In politics? In LIFE?
I think that was the point of having Geoff Johns, Jim Lee, and Dan DiDio promoted to be in charge of DC so that you could have the perspectives of the writer, artist, and editor in charge and get that middle ground that demands creativity and professionalism.

Dare I say, it seems to be working so far. For the most part, I've been enjoying DC's output more than Marvel's.

[TheCorpulent1]

I have absolutely not been doing so. The interests of the people up top at DC are wildly different from mine, so it's like getting a post-"OMD" Spider-Man for several of their characters (although, granted, not that extreme). Yeah, their comics may be good, but they're not the versions I'm interested in. Then there are just the flat-out embarrassments like Titans and Cry for Justice. I find myself reading fewer and fewer DC superhero comics each month.

[Aesop Rocks]

I completely ****ing hate that Children's Crusade is bi-monthly. I really, really do. :down

[Dread]

I think that was the point of having Geoff Johns, Jim Lee, and Dan DiDio promoted to be in charge of DC so that you could have the perspectives of the writer, artist, and editor in charge and get that middle ground that demands creativity and professionalism.

Dare I say, it seems to be working so far. For the most part, I've been enjoying DC's output more than Marvel's.

As a Marvel fan and a relative DC outsider (I buy, at best, two DC titles, and one is a mini), I've never gotten the urge to try out too many of DC's books since about 2006 or so. Dan DiDio I don't think is entirely competent; he may be a pleasant chap to talk to, but Joe Q has outdone him for years (and Joe Q's hardly Captain Competence himself). Jim Lee may be a legend, but I feel he is too set in what was cool, design wise, in the 1990's and has had a hard time adapting. I mean, his first major icon redesign, and what does he do? Fashion Wonder Woman for 1994 Image comics. As for Geoff Johns, he is DC's version of Bendis (their best selling, most important writer, unless you count Grant Morrison), but also like him, he seems set in whatever meets his fancy from his youth, and if you're not into that, tough. In truth, both Marvel and DC are run by old fanboys wanting to recapture their youth, I think that DC is simply more blatant about it than Marvel, and DC's youth is a bit more quaint.

I completely ****ing hate that Children's Crusade is bi-monthly. I really, really do. :down

It does ask a long commitment for fans and retailers. I mean, Alex Ross' JUSTICE took 2 years to complete, and that was for painted artwork. While I recall enjoying it at the time, it probably was not worth it in the long haul. Given that this is also $4 a pop, one or two bad issues could sink it for me.

[hippie_hunter]

As a Marvel fan and a relative DC outsider (I buy, at best, two DC titles, and one is a mini), I've never gotten the urge to try out too many of DC's books since about 2006 or so. Dan DiDio I don't think is entirely competent; he may be a pleasant chap to talk to, but Joe Q has outdone him for years (and Joe Q's hardly Captain Competence himself). Jim Lee may be a legend, but I feel he is too set in what was cool, design wise, in the 1990's and has had a hard time adapting. I mean, his first major icon redesign, and what does he do? Fashion Wonder Woman for 1994 Image comics. As for Geoff Johns, he is DC's version of Bendis (their best selling, most important writer, unless you count Grant Morrison), but also like him, he seems set in whatever meets his fancy from his youth, and if you're not into that, tough. In truth, both Marvel and DC are run by old fanboys wanting to recapture their youth, I think that DC is simply more blatant about it than Marvel, and DC's youth is a bit more quaint.
I think that the massive missteps of the past couple of years such as Countdown, pissing off Mark Waid and Chuck Dixon, and failing to capture the momentum from Infinite Crisis has really had an effect on Dan DiDio.

Instead of pushing away talent, you now have JMS, Paul Cornell, Marc Guggenheim, and David Finch defecting from Marvel, bringing Paul Levitz back to writing after having him step down as DC's publisher, and securing talent such as Scott Snyder and Jeff Lemire. And DC has been really pushing their franchises to get more people to read them to restore a lot of the momentum lost with what Grant Morrison is doing with Batman, revitalizing the Flash, and having JMS work on Superman and Wonder Woman.

As for Jim Lee, his duties go beyond just art. Jim Lee's efforts have put DC at the frontier of digital comics, along with working with video games involving DC's characters, WildStorm, and editorial. And I think that he's adapted his art pretty damn well for this era as opposed to his other Image collegues. Asides from the jacket, his Wonder Woman redesign is rather good.

And yeah, Johns is a total fanboy. No argument there.

[Dread]

Hey, if DC wants JMS, you can keep him! DC and Marvel can always claim their share of talented figures as well as incompetent editorial and shameless fanboy creators. What matters is output, which is always subjective.

As mind boggling as Marvel's decisions are, many of DC's are worse. I do think DC is somewhat more willing to try something new, or have more experience with Vertigo and the trade market to have more reasonable sales expectations. Marvel literally believes everything they sell should move 800,000 copies, and still can, all they need do is relaunch this, reprint that, put out a Deadpool book...

[BrianWilly]

So that time Clint had hate-sex with Wanda...

...actually a Doombot?

[Kevin]

So that time Clint had hate-sex with Wanda...

...actually a Doombot?
Oh, ****. Whu????

Damn, I cant wait to read this book in 2 years.

But didn't Beast also find her?

[BrianWilly]

That might have been a Doombot too. Well, all we really know is that the Wanda they find at the end of this issue was a Doombot and that Doom actually has her. We're not sure when exactly he replaced the real Wanda, or even if the real Wanda was ever actually in Transia...but Doom would certainly have the technological and mystical aptitude to fool Beast and Clint.

[TheCorpulent1]

Transia's pretty close to Latveria, isn't it? Maybe Doom kidnapped her in Transia.

[Aesop Rocks]

Doom kidnapped Wanda? I seriously and highly doubt that. Her powers are like The Hulk, they'll work when they want to, not when she wants them to.

[TheCorpulent1]

Her powers are a complete question mark because no one's been allowed to touch her since Disassembled for Heinberg's sake. :o

[Aesop Rocks]

Well, true, but for the sake of the character, you know? Like isn't Wanda one of the most powerful people in the Marvel U? If so, I don't see them being like "Your powers? LOL SORRY!".

I could see her powers still being there, and taking her over like how the Avatar does Aang when he didn't know how to control it, you know?

[TheCorpulent1]

I guess. I'd rather she just lost her Bendis-powers, personally.

[Aesop Rocks]

We all do, Corp. :o

[spideyboy_1111]

hey speak for yourself. i like her as an omega level mutant. but her powers do need to have a set amount of rules... like id assume after M day and the large amount of stuff she pulled... her magic would be in a very weakened state, easy to get nabbed by doom

[chamber-music]

So that time Clint had hate-sex with Wanda...

...actually a Doombot?
Clint joins Marvels list of bot-bangers. Love Magneto family time. Polaris is the forgotten Eisenhardt family member

[Colossal Spoons]

Just finished CC #2. Prob the best comic I'd read in a while. Speed has definitely cemented himself as my fav Young Avenger.

- a big Maximoff family reunion
- Speed and Quicksilver finally racing(I've been wanting that for years)
- a Captain Marvel(DC) reference from Spidey :awesome:
- the Sound of Music outfits were classic
- Doom showing up

Heinberg, I'm not excusing your extreme tardiness or lack of priority you place on your comic fans but damn I missed this. My only complaint is how bloodthirsty Wolverine was written. He almost seemed excited and happy to kill Wiccan :dry:

[TheCorpulent1]

Wolverine's been excited and happy to kill anything since around '03 or '04. :o

[Colossal Spoons]

Yeah, but he's been working on that :(

[TheCorpulent1]

No, he hasn't. That's the whole point. :o

[Dread]

I liked the issue overall, but I do feel that despite it's moments of brilliance, another writer besides Heinberg could have brought it here, alongside Cheung. I agree that Wolverine was extra bloodthirsty, and the Avengers in particular were written as one note jerkwads so it became sensible to side with Magneto. That's pedestrian WWE writing. They act as if Wanda has ALWAYS been their enemy and, aside for Luke Cage, killing her is their first and only option. You'd think they would have learned from their Korvac adventure that automatically bum rushing someone with godlike power to try to kill them without mercy has tended to backfire. Much as trying to kill Wanda the first time backfired. Third time'll be the charm, eh?

The rest was fine, and I am curious about the Dr. Doom connection. It was nice to have Quicksilver and Speed finally meet. But even Quicksilver was extra bloodthirsty, throwing wooden planks into a full crowd, not caring about any hapless pedestrians or kid heroes, just to kill Magneto. He really COULD have killed Wanda right there, had she been "real".

I remember a line that Dan Slott wrote during his MIGHTY AVENGERS run in which he stated that life wasn't a movie and adults weren't always morons just to make teenagers look smart by comparison. Well, Heinberg is writing it like those sorts of movies. I am always amused how eager comics are to invite TV & movie writers into their midst, when most often TV & movie writers are the worst kinds of hacks outside of politics, responsible for the dummying down of imagination and the lowered scale of film quality.

[BrianWilly]

If Wiccan was a teenage girl, Wolverine wouldn't have been so trigger-happy...

[Colossal Spoons]

I don't even think Wiccan has done anything to deserve being murdered yet. Unless Wolverine just really hates lightning bolts :huh:

I'm all for gutting Wanda though

[Dread]

Wolverine has been just fine murdering quite a few of his girlfriends if they've asked him to, or if they steal the remote during a Michigan State College Bowl game.

My problem with the Avengers is they seem to have no mercy about Wanda, who at least for about a decade of their existence she was a loyal and stable Avenger. In real life, most people would at least hesitate to murder or fight their best friend even if said friend killed EVERY LIVING THING ON THE PLANET. The Avengers don't hesitate; they're eager, like Wanda owed them money. HOUSE OF M ended up messing up mutants, but the Avengers personally suffered little after it was undone. Really, what was the worst thing that happened? The Collective? The same guy that Tony Stark later dispatched to Canada and then Norman Osborn merrily manipulated?

And what was the worst Wolverine suffered? He got his memories about his past back - and learned that it was very ugly, and that for most of his history he was a major **** up and a-hole, who created an even worse son to match. THAT'S Wanda's fault? For that she deserves his wrath? For a guy who used to try to follow a samurai's honor code and philosophy, Logan has a hard time looking at himself in a mirror. He's so quick to judge and execute people for their sins, while expecting infinite patience for his own. HOUSE OF M happened because Quicksilver manipulated his grief-maddened sister, and M-Day happened because Magneto decided to be a jerk and the Avengers decided the best way to fix it was the punch everything in sight. Oh, yeah, she's such a Carnage. The Avengers were hardly gung-ho to kill him, by the way. They haven't been gung-ho to kill ANY of their other enemies who genuinely deserved it. Where was the revenge for Kang blowing up Washington? None of the Avengers present were the ones who watched Sharon Carter ex Red Skull. The Avengers have let no end of dangerous threats and maniacs live to fight another day, but suddenly Wanda deserves not even a moment's pity? Not even a, "It's so terrible to have to do this to our good friend", nothing?

[TheCorpulent1]

I don't even think Wiccan has done anything to deserve being murdered yet. Unless Wolverine just really hates lightning bolts :huh:

I'm all for gutting Wanda though
I agree, if you mean gutting what she's become and taking her back to a viable, useful member of the Avengers who's not a crazy ho just because Bendis ran out of ideas.

[Dread]

I agree, if you mean gutting what she's become and taking her back to a viable, useful member of the Avengers who's not a crazy ho just because Bendis ran out of ideas.

He had ideas to begin with?

What? Too low?

[spideyboy_1111]

I liked the issue overall, but I do feel that despite it's moments of brilliance, another writer besides Heinberg could have brought it here, alongside Cheung. I agree that Wolverine was extra bloodthirsty, and the Avengers in particular were written as one note jerkwads so it became sensible to side with Magneto. That's pedestrian WWE writing. They act as if Wanda has ALWAYS been their enemy and, aside for Luke Cage, killing her is their first and only option. You'd think they would have learned from their Korvac adventure that automatically bum rushing someone with godlike power to try to kill them without mercy has tended to backfire. Much as trying to kill Wanda the first time backfired. Third time'll be the charm, eh?

The rest was fine, and I am curious about the Dr. Doom connection. It was nice to have Quicksilver and Speed finally meet. But even Quicksilver was extra bloodthirsty, throwing wooden planks into a full crowd, not caring about any hapless pedestrians or kid heroes, just to kill Magneto. He really COULD have killed Wanda right there, had she been "real".

I remember a line that Dan Slott wrote during his MIGHTY AVENGERS run in which he stated that life wasn't a movie and adults weren't always morons just to make teenagers look smart by comparison. Well, Heinberg is writing it like those sorts of movies. I am always amused how eager comics are to invite TV & movie writers into their midst, when most often TV & movie writers are the worst kinds of hacks outside of politics, responsible for the dummying down of imagination and the lowered scale of film quality.

meh... that was very quicksilver for me... ever since House of M he's been much more of a rush to decision psycho... going to extremes... with losing his powers and the inhumans, and others. the guy is pretty much the definition of a careless dueche

[Dread]

meh... that was very quicksilver for me... ever since House of M he's been much more of a rush to decision psycho... going to extremes... with losing his powers and the inhumans, and others. the guy is pretty much the definition of a careless dueche

He has been trying to redeem himself a bit lately. It's a work in progress, but still. If Quicksilver were THIS eager to kill Magneto, he could have attacked him at Utopia months ago. I mean, Magneto is influencing kids there just as well as he is with the Young Avengers.

Wanting to kill Magneto is fine, it was just his recklessness that was a tad odd for me.

[Aesop Rocks]

Just finished CC #2. Prob the best comic I'd read in a while. Speed has definitely cemented himself as my fav Young Avenger.

- a big Maximoff family reunion
- Speed and Quicksilver finally racing(I've been wanting that for years)
- a Captain Marvel(DC) reference from Spidey :awesome:
- the Sound of Music outfits were classic
- Doom showing up

Heinberg, I'm not excusing your extreme tardiness or lack of priority you place on your comic fans but damn I missed this. My only complaint is how bloodthirsty Wolverine was written. He almost seemed excited and happy to kill Wiccan :dry:

I didn't catch the Captain Marvel reference. :o

I completely agree about Wolverine though. I was like "They're not going to write The Avengers as bad-guys in this, are they?". Wolverine SERIOUSLY wants to kill Wanda and The Young Avengers? What the hell is wrong with him? Cap tried to say something, but Logan just threw on his "come at me bro" face. Reading Wolverine like that makes me want to stay further away from the X-Men series than I already am. Another thing, Ms. Marvel. She isn't that big of a *****! I mean, I understand where Wolverine and Ms. Marvel are coming from and their POV of Wanda after House of M, but DAMN. Unnecessarily *****y. :down

Erik is cool, but I'm still not that big of an X-Men fan (if at all), so it's cool to read him in something non-X-Men. Speed and Quicksliver racing was so damn awesome! Speed and Wiccan SO cheated. :o Some people I read saying that Doom showing up in CC was stupid, but I thought it was perfect. I seriously cannot wait for a YA+Magneto (and hopefully Quicksliver) against Doom. Again, I don't think that Doom has Wanda either. I've stated before that I personally believe that Wanda's powers are their own identity (think Banner and The Hulk), and the Doombots are just decoys, sending them on a world-wide wild goose chase for Wanda, while Doom searches for her too. I highly doubt Wanda's self-concious/powers/other identity-thingy would allow her to be easily captured by Doom. However, if she IS powerless and is captured, then well ****, we'll seen a epic ass fight for her!

[Colossal Spoons]

Wolverine's not nearly this bloodthirsty in any X-title, not even X-Force...where "bloodthirst" is the name of the game.

I don't think Doom really has Wanda either. Her "chaos magic" is prob keeping her hostage in Limbo or some crap. I never got to read an Avengers story pre-Disassembled so Wanda has always been the crazy person Bendis turned her into. I have no problem with killing people who deserve it in comic books(w/e Corp :o) so when Wanda is eventually found, I want all the Avengers and remaining mutants to take turns doing their finishing moves on her like the end of a WWE match.

yes, mad

[Kevin]

I still blame Bendis/Marvel because Disassembled could've involved ANYONE. It could've been Jean. It Could've been Franklin. Anyone that powerful could have done the same thing and still be written this way. I don't blame Wanda.

[Dread]

The problem is that Disassembled became the lynch pin of so many stories that came immediately after, and even six years later has a legacy, and it was quite poorly written.

[Aesop Rocks]

Eh, I think A: Dis will go away once they find Wanda. Civil War and the SHRA went away after Siege.

[Colossal Spoons]

Hot damn! Wiccan finally cast a non-verbal spell last week. Glad that dumb crutch is gone; even though he said it helps him focus.

[TheCorpulent1]

I like his mantra spells. They're a nice limit on him. Dude's already supposedly more powerful than most other magic users as it is. Take off the few limits he has--his inexperience, his inability to cast without repeating the words, etc.--and you may as well just knock off Dr. Strange and Dr. Voodoo and make Billy the Sorcerer Supreme.

[spideyboy_1111]

yeah i think his verbal stuff actually makes him unique. almost like a catch phrase... or something. i like it

[Colossal Spoons]

Quicksilver's point was valid though. There's no surprise when he announces what he's going to do to you. What happens when he's fighting a quick opponent? He needs to learn spells like Strange, Voodoo, etc if he has to verbalize something.

[TheCorpulent1]

I agree. Someone should totally be teaching him how to actually use magic rather than just make s*** happen during bouts of panic.

[Colossal Spoons]

Strange offered to train him and nothing ever happened. If he was smart, he'd sit in on Voodoo's SS training. He prob knows more than him anyway :o

[TheCorpulent1]

If only Agatha Harkness were still around...

[Colossal Spoons]

Didn't you hear, Doom's marrying her next month.

[chamber-music]

I'm liking blood thirst savage Wolverine all stab happy.

This Wonderman having Sentry level strength is a new one to me.

[TheCorpulent1]

Didn't you hear, Doom's marrying her next month.
What, now?

[Colossal Spoons]

J/k, he's only marrying Wanda

[Colossal Spoons]

I'm liking blood thirst savage Wolverine all stab happy.

This Wonderman having Sentry level strength is a new one to me.

All the Avengers are being written horribly in this book. They're either douchebags or murderers who have no prob killing kids. I mean I love killing and all but it's no fun when everybody is on board lol.

I call BS on Simon being anywhere near as strong as Sentry :whatever:

[TheCorpulent1]

J/k, he's only marrying Wanda
Oh, fun, so she's still crazy.

[Colossal Spoons]

Oh, fun, so she's still crazy.

Not so much crazy, but suffering from super-amnesia or most likely brainwashing by Mr. Von Doom

[TheCorpulent1]

That's Dr. Von Doom. He didn't get kicked out of college for blowing s*** up just to be called "Mr." :o

[NightBeetle]

Heinberg Continues the "Crusade" (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=29890)

http://i54.tinypic.com/sotnkp.jpg




CBR News: Allan, so far the search for the Scarlet Witch has generated some extreme emotions. Wanda’s family members want to rescue her. Most of her friends on the Avengers want to take her into custody and try to help her deal with her mental problems. Yet there are few Avengers that view her as too dangerous to help. What is it about Wanda that you think generates such powerful emotions? Is it simply the nature of her powers or is there something about her personality as well?

Allan Heinberg: I think Wanda's backstory is the key to the character and a large part of her appeal. After all, she and Quicksilver started out in the Marvel (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=29890#) Universe as terrorists -- disciples of Magneto. But in the end, they had the moral fiber -- and the compassion -- not only to leave Magneto, but to prove themselves as Avengers. That transformation -- the idea that two villains from the X-Universe could not only become heroes, but that they could do so in a completely different arena of the Marvel Universe was groundbreaking at the time. Marvel Comics basically revolutionized comic book storytelling by essentially telling readers that their characters can -- and will -- change. Since then, the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver have continuously and openly wrestled with the darker parts of their natures even as they strive to obey their nobler instincts. Theirs is a very human, very relatable and very compelling struggle.

The big revelation in “The Children’s Crusade” #2 was Doctor Doom's involvement and the revelation in #3 that Doom also has some strong feelings about Wanda, and in fact intends to marry her. What's it like writing Doctor Doom? What made you want to include him in this story? Is Doom only marrying Wanda because of the power he'll gain or do you think there's part of his personality that might actually care for her?

I have really enjoyed exploring the possibility of Doom in love. Especially the idea of his having fallen in love with someone who is not only his enemy, but a woman (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=29890#) who is inarguably more powerful than he is. Love can be enormously tricky even under the best circumstances, but how is Doom going to be able to handle being subordinate to his wife? I think everyone involved in the story is questioning Doom's motives, including Doom himself.

Magneto has worked very hard to turn over a new leaf in the pages of “Uncanny X-Men” and it seems like in this series he's being confronted by a lot of his past misdeeds, especially in the way he raised his children. What's his emotional state going into #4? How important is it for him to find Wanda, and how important is it for him to reconnect with Quicksilver who clearly hates him?

Magneto is absolutely determined to rescue his daughter -- and his grandson -- at all costs. However, like Doom, Magneto's motives are always going to be questionable. Does Magneto want to find Wanda for her sake or for his own? Does he want to mend fences with her and make up (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=29890#) for his own misdeeds? Or does he want to possess and control her? Or, more realistically, is it a bit of both? The same is true of Magneto's attitude about Quicksilver. Magneto recognizes that, in addition to restoring familial peace, any kind of alliance he forges with Pietro -- even a temporary one -- will only serve him in the future.

One character who seems to be profoundly impacted by Wanda's reemergence is Wolverine. He seems very angry and it's almost like he's acting the way he was when he first joined the X-Men; making snarky comments towards anyone who didn't agree with him. Why do you think he's acting this way? Is Wolverine simply upset over what Wanda's powers did to mutantkind or is there something more going on?

Wolverine's attitude toward the Wanda situation was actually established in "House of M" #1. After "Avengers: Disassembled," when the Avengers and the X-Men were debating what to do about Wanda, Wolverine came down very clearly on the side of eliminating her altogether. And that was before she stole his life and his memories and transported him to the World of M. After which, of course, she wiped out an entire species. I do think he's angry. I think he's absolutely haunted by what Wanda did to him -- and by what Wanda did to all of mutantkind -- but in the end, I think he thinks he's being pragmatic.

Brian Bendis hinted that Wonder Man was in direct opposition to the Avengers reforming in early issues of the current “Avengers” series. In “The Children’s Crusade” #3 you brought Wonder Man into the story and definitely implied that Simon was not happy to be in the presence of the Avengers. What can you tell us about Simon's motivation and role in future issues? How does he feel about looking for a woman who he's had a very complex and complicated relationship with?

As longtime Avengers fans know, Simon has been devoted to Wanda for many years, and now he owes his very existence to her. I don't think there's anything Simon wouldn't do for Wanda at this point, including having to deal with the Avengers, if need be.

One of the reasons why Wonder Man's relationship was so complicated with the Scarlet Witch was because of the Vision. The Vision on the Young Avengers is not exactly the Vision of old, but we have to wonder what does he make of all of this? He's been quiet, but Jim Cheung's facial expressions for the character seem to suggest that there's a lot on the new Vision's mind.

Because "Avengers: The Children's Crusade" is not strictly a Young Avengers book -- and because it has such a large cast of characters -- the Young Avengers (apart from Wiccan, whose story it is) will be taking turns in the narrative spotlight. The Vision's role in the story grows with every issue, and his relationship (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=29890#) to the Scarlet Witch will definitely be addressed.

"The Children's Crusade" is a nine issue miniseries and you're about to launch #4, which would seem like it would be the start of the second act. In terms of plot and themes, what is Act Two of “The Children's Crusade" about?

For me, Act One was about Wiccan's (and the Young Avengers') idealism and good intentions with regard to finding the Scarlet Witch. Act Two is about what happens when their good intentions come up against the very complicated reality of the situation. Act Three is about their struggle to find a way to live with -- and take responsibility for -- the devastating consequences of their actions.

In the first three issues you introduced a lot of the major players in this story. As the story moves forward, can we expect appearances by any surprise heroes or villains? Or is the cast of the story all pretty much on the table?

At this point in the story we've met all the principal players, but there are many, many more cameos and surprise appearances in store.

How important an element is setting in this next phase of the story? It seems like all roads lead to Latveria?

We are going to be in Latveria for the next little while, but the principal setting changes rather dramatically after that.

The end of “The Children's Crusade” is still a ways off, but I imagine it's very much on your mind. Can you hint at what kind of impact this story will have on the Avengers and the Young Avengers?

Because this story was built on the incredible foundation Brian Michael Bendis created in "Avengers: Disassembled" and "House of M" (as well as its aftermath, "Decimation"), the outcome of "Avengers: The Children's Crusade" will have a profound and lasting impact on the future of the Avengers, the Young Avengers and the X-Men.

[Dread]

The problem is...WHY would Dr. Doom fall in love with Wanda? They barely met 5 times in over 40 years. I mean I think he wanted Storm at one point, but everyone wants to make her their queen...just ask Chris Claremont. I can understand Doom being attracted to manipulating her power to shape the world, like Quicksilver did, but I don't quite buy love as the reason he hasn't utilized her to that end, honestly. Doom loves only two things; his mother, and himself. I certainly don't trust the "GREY'S ANATOMY" guy to try to tell a legitimate Doom love story.

I always am amazed at how thrilled comic book companies are to "score" writers who write for network TV. Network TV shows often have some of the worst writing outside of men's bathroom walls. A computer program could write a typical episode of a CSI spin off. Joss Whedon's inability to last on network TV long these days is precisely because he is too clever for them. He'd be advised to launch his next show on cable. The audience would be smaller, but it might actually get a second season (look how long FARSCAPE lasted, and that seemed to have an episodic budget in the five digits). Virtually every halfway intelligent TV show of the last half decade was launched on cable, not network TV. I mean, even "LOST" was in many ways more confusing then good.

I digress. The art looks very lovely. But to be honest, while AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE is by no means a BAD comic, it isn't a terribly exceptional one. Heinberg does a better job explaining Wolverine's motivation in an interview than he does in the story itself, which is trademark Bendis Bad Writing Syndrome (BBWS). His treatment of some characters, especially the ones he didn't co-create, sometimes borders on decent to "WTF" level emotional flips. The story has had moments of narrative brilliance wrapped around a bun of mediocrity or shoddy characterization, topped with perfectly good art. It's not worth 9 issues over 18 months at $4 a pop, in all honesty. Not unless the end game is so much better than the build up, and quite frankly, very few writers at Marvel have any idea of the difference between an ending and an advertisement for another comic. Or if they do, their editors do not.

[NightBeetle]

Avengers: The Children's Crusade #4 Preview (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=7385&disp=table)

http://i56.tinypic.com/5xqvqq.jpg

[Dread]

I totally don't buy that Dr. Doom just wants to marry Wanda because he loves her. If he does, you can add Heinberg to the pile of writers who have no clue how to write Doom. He loves nothing but himself, his dead mother, and power. His feelings for Reed are at best respect, not any fondness.

On the other hand, it totally makes sense that Doom would marry Wanda to hopefully exploit her power, even if he has taken a damn long time to try.

The dialogue is snippy, and at least the preview cuts off before a major incident.

Ironically, Doom's defeat of Wiccan is perhaps his first victory over any named opponent in about four years. :o

[Colossal Spoons]

Issue #4 was pretty good. The Avengers were bloodthirsty nuisances as usual and we even got an Iron Lad appearance at the end. I'm sure there's an illusion or 2 at work here though.

[Aesop Rocks]

The Avengers as in Wolverine and Ms. Marvel?

[runawayboulder]

More Wolverine than anybody else.

[Aesop Rocks]

Yeah, I just read it. lol

Fantastic issue! :up:

[Aesop Rocks]

He loves nothing but himself, his dead mother, and power.

Not calling you wrong or anything, but Doom did say that Wanda reminded him of his mother a lot, so maybe he's marrying her on a 50/50 deal. Because of his mommy issues and because he wants her power.

[Dread]

Not calling you wrong or anything, but Doom did say that Wanda reminded him of his mother a lot, so maybe he's marrying her on a 50/50 deal. Because of his mommy issues and because he wants her power.

In the story, Doom merely mentioned that his mother was into magic to try to relate to Wiccan and get him to agree to demands to not cause more of a fuss for his new bride. Doom likely would have slew the boy if Wanda wasn't so concerned, and stunned from his ruthless side.

It is interesting that these days, the fact that Dr. Doom is a scientist whose genius is second only to Reed Richards (or about even, depending on who you ask) is completely forgotten aside for his robots and armor, and he's just known as a sorcerer these days. Even though magic spells tend to blow up in his face, literally, when he tries some of them.

It isn't like Doom wouldn't try to wed some woman for her power; I believe he was once into Storm because of that (and because EVERYONE wants to make Storm their queen, according to countless Chris Claremont stories). If Doom wants to try to "reawaken" Wanda's power when he feels it is best or figures out how, that's fine and perfectly within Doom. But to convince me that Doom has genuinely fallen for her despite who she was and who he is, Heinberg is going to have to come up with a lot more than Doom claiming even he is stunned. Love, like insanity, can sometimes be used as shorthand to get characters to do things out of character without needing to explain it one whit, as in, "oh, he's crazy" or "oh, he's in love". That doesn't cut it outside of prime time TV.

Imagine if someone wrote a story in which Superman falls in love with Catwoman and all he's said about it is, "I'm just as surprised as you are" and would just continue on. That's not professional writing. That's mediocre fan-fiction, and I don't pay $4 for that. Many writers feel that acknowledging in-story how absurd a plot point is makes it acceptable. No, it doesn't. You have to actually write it so it isn't absurd.

May as well repost my review, with spoilers:

AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE #4: While not as big seller now as it was back in the heyday of 2005, what is essentially YOUNG AVENGERS SEASON TWO chugs along at it's bi-monthly pace. To give credit to the creative team of Allen Heinberg and Jim Cheung, while it took nearly five years to get this project published, at least they've maintained their bi-monthly schedule (a feat that the ASTONISHING books cannot claim). While things are better than the second issue (which was the series' low point thus far), this remains a frustrating series. There are many things to like about it. The artwork by Cheung, alongside Mark Morales' inks and Justin Ponsor's great colors, is very strong (so long as you don't mind everyone having the same face, a la' Mark Bagley). Cheung seems to take extra relish with battles and drawing Dr. Doom himself. Allen Heinberg's issues always have memorable moments and some amusing or interesting conversations, or lines. The dilemma is that for every memorable moment, there is another moment that is awkward or mediocre. For every character who is handled well (Wiccan), there are those written jaw-droppingly terrible (Wolverine). Virtually every adult in this story is portrayed as some sort of fanatic or otherwise barely reasonable figure aside for the teenage heroes, who are being shuffled amongst the plot, and sympathetic villains like Magneto and Doom. The angle, for those who don't mind spoilers, is that after HOUSE OF M, Wanda (formerly the Scarlet Witch) lost her memories along with her powers when she de-powered over 90% of the world's mutant population. Dr. Doom found her and apparently fell in genuine love of her, setting out to woo and attempt to wed her, while planting a robotic duplicate in Transia to fool anyone looking for her (such as Hawkeye). Wiccan and Speed of the Young Avengers are seemingly the lost spirits of her dead twins, somehow reborn into new bodies (akin to reincarnation). They are seeking her out, while the Avengers still consider her a reality warping threat who should be put down - Wolverine especially. The ol' Canucklehead comes off about as simplistic as Darth Maul within this issue, only without any of the charisma. He's out to not only kill Wanda in revenge for M-Day, but he relishes doing so. He says things like, "If I was as big a threat as you, I'd expect you to do the same thing to me" - has ANY superhero gotten as many innocent women or men killed as Wolverine? How many people across the past 100-150 years have murdered so many people as Wolverine, sometimes for no better reason than a temper? He helped create some maniacs, like Nuke, in the past. Yet if a task force showed up with a mountain of evidence on why Wolverine needs to be put down (least of all because he is frequently brainwashed or possessed by Satan and turns on his allies), Wolverine would fight them to the death and probably only argue if an ally stole a kill from him. Rather than blame maniacs like Stryker or Selene or Bastion, he blames Wanda. Like just about everything the Avengers do, it degenerates into a mindless brawl, with a character familiar to Young Avengers fans popping up in the cliffhanger. I thought Iron Lad killed Kang and then went back to time so he could eventually become Kang and the time-line would remain intact (even if Kang's time-line is such a mess he can literally meet and fight three versions of himself).

Despite being part of the famed "family", and despite being the Young Avenger most in need of focus, Speed is falling by the wayside along with the rest of his team in service to the plot. Not only is Wiccan the star, he overshadows everyone; if one is a fan of his, terrific. Eli Bradly/Patriot gets in an obligatory two lines of whining, Kate Bishop/Hawkeye gets in her obligatory lines of "proving she is a more assertive leader than Eli is", and Quicksilver still doesn't trust Magneto. I don't know if Vision or Stature have said anything since issue two. After making a big deal of heading off to find Wanda alone last issue, Wonder Man quickly aligns with the rest of the (New) Avengers (circa 2006) and shifts into the background, just ahead of Luke Cage. The story attempts to sell the reader on the idea that Dr. Doom in no way is seeking to exploit Wanda for her power one day, and has genuinely fallen in love with her. "Even I find it difficult to believe," Doom says at one point; if not even HE can buy it, what hope is there for the rest of us? Dr. Doom hasn't loved or cared for anyone genuinely since his mother went to Hell. Reed Richards was his best friend, and he's literally used the man's daughter as a magical familiar. Heinberg is going to have to do better to convince me that Doom has fallen in love with Wanda and make it feel any more genuine than sub par fan fiction (where characters are paired up for no reason or explanation all the time).

Wanda Maximoff, since 2004, has become a very damaged character. Despite being an Avenger and long time heroine longer than she was anything else, she was chosen to suddenly go crazy over a trauma she got over in the 1990's and provide the spark for the first line-wide event of Joe Quesada's tenure as editor in chief - DISASSEMBLED. She proved to be a walking, ranting plot device to break up the Avengers (so they could be reassembled into a new roster) and eliminate what Joe Quesada felt were too many mutant characters (which he had no problem with from 2001-2004 when Grant Morrison wrote X-MEN and was landing Top 10 sales on it). Amnesia is a common method for having a damaged, formerly fanatical character return and seem pure and innocent, and ripe for redemption. It is almost as if a prime TV writer were utilizing every over done cliché possible - didn't Heinberg write "GREY'S ANATOMY"? Just like any cheap soap, nothing sparks a dangerous new storyline for a female character quite like a wedding. What next; will Dr. Doom's father return from a car accident? Will the camera show some extreme close ups for an awkward period of time? At any rate, AVENGERS: THE CHILDREN'S CRUSADE remains neither brilliant nor horrific, a frustrating sort of "just about average". At best, as the second half is told this year, things pick up.

When Wiccan summarizes the story where Wanda lost the twins, he either wasn't aware of the full reasoning, or Heinberg wasn't. Master Pandemonium didn't simply absorb the twins' souls to rebuild Mephisto. He said they were fragments of Mephisto's soul that Wanda had unconsciously transformed into babies via her chaos magic because she wanted to have Vision's kids, and not even synthesoids have sperm. That they were NEVER "real". That's a bit different from what Wiccan said. Apparently they were "real" and were reincarnated into new lives somehow.

This series has shown me nothing in the writing department that justifies Marvel waiting five years for this. Which is a shame, because the art is out of the park. A few exciting parts of an otherwise average parade aren't an effective story.

At the very least, this story reminds people that Mephisto was interested in destroying families long before he wanted Spider-Man's marriage.

[TheCorpulent1]

This series makes me wish someone would just kill Wolverine already. More than anything else, I want to see someone break Wolverine's face in half and toss him into the sun. What a giant, raging douchebag. :o

[runawayboulder]

Wolverine's actions would make sense if this mini was released when it was supposed to.......back in 07. Because of that, I can never take this book seriously.

[Dread]

This series makes me wish someone would just kill Wolverine already. More than anything else, I want to see someone break Wolverine's face in half and toss him into the sun. What a giant, raging douchebag. :o

Wolverine's actions would make sense if this mini was released when it was supposed to.......back in 07. Because of that, I can never take this book seriously.

At best, I think Wolverine is being written a bit out of character. Or if he is, he's simply "a giant, raging douche bag" as Corp said.

My own thoughts on him from this issue:
[The] Avengers still consider her [Wanda] a reality warping threat who should be put down - Wolverine especially. The ol' Canucklehead comes off about as simplistic as Darth Maul within this issue, only without any of the charisma. He's out to not only kill Wanda in revenge for M-Day, but he relishes doing so. He says things like, "If I was as big a threat as you, I'd expect you to do the same thing to me" - has ANY superhero gotten as many innocent women or men killed as Wolverine? How many people across the past 100-150 years have murdered so many people as Wolverine, sometimes for no better reason than a temper? He helped create some maniacs, like Nuke, in the past. Yet if a task force showed up with a mountain of evidence on why Wolverine needs to be put down (least of all because he is frequently brainwashed or possessed by Satan and turns on his allies), Wolverine would fight them to the death and probably only argue if an ally stole a kill from him. Rather than blame maniacs like Stryker or Selene or Bastion, he blames Wanda.

Part of me has always wondered if a lot of this is Logan venting frustration at finding out his life wasn't pretty. When Wanda, who was psychologically traumatized, was manipulated by Pietro into creating HOUSE OF M, she did so by granting many heroes, including the X-Men and Spider-Man, their "hearts desires". In the process, Wolverine regained all of his lost memories. This made him the one who knew HOM was a sham first, but it also allowed him to learn that, among other things, he'd been a giant jackass for a good long time before Weapon X. Least of all finding out that he had an abandoned son, Daken, who has become a bigger jackass. For a guy who has always resented being turned into a weapon, he didn't complain too much when Cyclops recommended X-23 for his "kill squad" X-Force, and kept her around even after Cyclops wanted them to disband. At any rate, the general gist of a lot of his recent revelations was that before WEAPON X blanked his memories, Logan was not a particularly nice guy. It has been implied that he'd likely killed people with little quarrel with him just because they were in his way, or he was angry. He was personally responsible for turning Frank Simpson into the maniac who would one day become Nuke (even carving the U.S. flag into his face). He once tried to kill Cap & Bucky during WWII (which neither of them seem to recall now), although he later helped Cap during the same war. None of this was Wanda's fault; she was just the one who allowed Logan to finally remember it all. He's no Sabretooth, but sometimes the lines between them blur, now more than in the 80's or 90's thanks to those ORIGINS "revelations".

In recent years, I have detected a pattern of Wolverine wanting to furiously punish other people for their sins, while expecting endless excuses for his own. While he will hardly admit to being a saint, I doubt he'd simply allow someone with a perfectly morally justified reason to end him. Given how many women he's been involved with who have died, for all we know he could have some very angry grandchildren or relatives out there somewhere. Do the surviving Slingers even know he was the guy who decapitated Hornet? He was brainwashed for that by Gorgon, but as I said, this happens fairly often - almost as often as Hulk on a rampage. Right now, his body is being possessed by Satan and he is on another rampage.

If anything, Logan should be angrier at Pietro; he was the one who set HOM into motion by exploiting Wanda. Or even Magneto; his thrashing of Pietro at the end is what motivated Wanda to erase the x-gene. To be fair, Wolverine's made his contempt of Magneto apparent here, and I can buy it. Although it is poorly timed, as Magneto has been an ally of Utopia a lot lately (and saved Kitty Pryde when no one else could). While Wanda was responsible for the depowering, she wasn't responsible for the actions of others. If he is angry at all the depowered cadets who died, maybe the X-Men shouldn't have shipped them all off on buses the moment their powers were gone, where they could be blown up. Maybe Cyclops should try to embrace assistance from other heroes, not throwing the medal of honor into the ocean 5 minutes after Steve Rogers helps him get it. Maybe Wolverine should use his Avengers membership for more than an opportunity to stab extra people.

I do agree, though, that the timing for the script is not good. Some of it has been edited to relate to post-SIEGE, but the rest is obviously 2006-2007 fare.

[Colossal Spoons]

Wolverine's actions would make sense if this mini was released when it was supposed to.......back in 07. Because of that, I can never take this book seriously.

I can still understand his hatred for Wanda. But I still think he's being written as a 1-dimensional stabbing machine in this book.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, the 1-dimensionality is the main thing that's pissing me off. If Wolverine would just stop and be like, "Look, Wanda's near and dear to me too, but we've gotta think of the bigger picture here," I might at least be able to tolerate him. But instead, every single page with him is just, "BLAAARGH, gotta kill Wanda, gotta kill Wanda!! Wiccan has similar powers? BLAAAARGH, gotta kill Wiccan too!" It's ridiculous.

[runawayboulder]

I can still understand his hatred for Wanda. But I still think he's being written as a 1-dimensional stabbing machine in this book.

I can't. I know their paths haven't crossed much but she's not just Magneto's daughter. She is also one of the greatest Avengers that ever lived. She's served as team field leader a few times. Logan is no dummy, he's gotta be aware that she's done more good than bad in her life. A lot of the bad is because of an unstable mental state. He, of all people should no what that's like......

[TheCorpulent1]

Logan apparently adopts a mentality that a few bad deeds, if bad enough, override all the good deeds in your life.

Which, when you think about it, makes you wonder why he hasn't killed himself yet. Dude's more of a bastard than virtually anyone else who claims to be a hero. :o

[chamber-music]

I actully like crazy stabby wolverine simply because I find his overzealous bloodthirst amusing. He almost makes Ultimate Captain America seem like a pleasant guy.

Also am I the only one who wants Amadaeus Cho to join the Young Avengers. They could use a big brain on the team (vision don't count because his an andriod)

[Colossal Spoons]

I can't. I know their paths haven't crossed much but she's not just Magneto's daughter. She is also one of the greatest Avengers that ever lived. She's served as team field leader a few times. Logan is no dummy, he's gotta be aware that she's done more good than bad in her life. A lot of the bad is because of an unstable mental state. He, of all people should no what that's like......

I didn't just mean Logan's grudge against her. I could see why any mutant who survived Decimation would wanna strangle her on-sight. Kinda hard to forgive and forget what she did due to her mental instability.

[Dread]

I can still understand his hatred for Wanda. But I still think he's being written as a 1-dimensional stabbing machine in this book.

Agreed.

Yeah, the 1-dimensionality is the main thing that's pissing me off. If Wolverine would just stop and be like, "Look, Wanda's near and dear to me too, but we've gotta think of the bigger picture here," I might at least be able to tolerate him. But instead, every single page with him is just, "BLAAARGH, gotta kill Wanda, gotta kill Wanda!! Wiccan has similar powers? BLAAAARGH, gotta kill Wiccan too!" It's ridiculous.

It's actually a little more than that; Wolverine doesn't just want to kill Wanda, he gives every impression that he'll enjoy it. In prior issues, he claimed he'd kill (and enjoy killing) Wiccan if he got in his way, too. This is the guy Iron Man HAD to make an Avenger? This is the guy Cyclops allows to mentor children? No wonder the mutant race is ****ed up.

Oh, I get it. Logan's only nice if they're young girls, preferably Asian. :o

Logan apparently adopts a mentality that a few bad deeds, if bad enough, override all the good deeds in your life.

Which, when you think about it, makes you wonder why he hasn't killed himself yet. Dude's more of a bastard than virtually anyone else who claims to be a hero. :o

If he does operate under that mentality, then for half his earlier life he's done more than a few "bad deeds". As a character he wasn't always that way, but the endless nasty revelations about his past, coupled with Romulus retcons as well as the abandonment of his "wanting to control his rage" demeanor for "stab at all costs" acts of the last decade or so have taken their toll on him. Over exposure and popularity were ruining him as a character nine years ago, and I think things have gotten worse. If anyone needs to take a break for 3-4 years like Thor, it may be him.

I didn't just mean Logan's grudge against her. I could see why any mutant who survived Decimation would wanna strangle her on-sight. Kinda hard to forgive and forget what she did due to her mental instability.

Although if she got her powers and her stability back, she could end M-Day in a heartbeat. Hard to do that if she's dead. I mean, who else do you trust to try to fix it? High Evolutionary (HE)? Apocalypse? Dark Beast? Mr. Sinister? HE is probably the best of that lot, and even he's often an antagonist.

In the "Marvel editors don't take things to conclusions" department, during CIVIL WAR and after during THE INITIATIVE, Tony Stark used Skrull-Pym's "genomech payload", basically nanobots, to give humans super-powers for a year. They assembled a team of them in California and called them THE ORDER, which was one of Matt Fraction's first big solo works at Marvel. One of the Order was Mulholland Black, who was a mutant depowered on M-Day. The "genomech payload" restored her powers, or at least granted her abilities that were very similar. If this worked on one depowered mutant, why not more? While Skrull-Pym is gone, surely Reed and/or Stark kept notes or could find his. Why not see if this technique could be applied to other depowered mutants? Oh, right, we can't take things to logical conclusions. Sorry.

To be fair, Wolverine is the type of guy who found out that the Agents Of Atlas weren't bad guys during an X-Men adventure, and declined to tell his Avengers team mates when they ran into them for no good reason besides, "It didn't come up." :o

[TheCorpulent1]

Also am I the only one who wants Amadaeus Cho to join the Young Avengers. They could use a big brain on the team (vision don't count because his an andriod)
Organicist. :o

I'd much rather see Cho, a few of the Young Avengers, and some other young heroes form a new New Warriors team. The Young Avengers, however you slice it, are always gonna be derivative of the Avengers. It's right there in their name. I think the New Warriors would be a great banner to turn around after Civil War and that random-ass reboot and turn into Marvel's answer the Teen Titans.

[Dread]

Organicist. :o

I'd much rather see Cho, a few of the Young Avengers, and some other young heroes form a new New Warriors team. The Young Avengers, however you slice it, are always gonna be derivative of the Avengers. It's right there in their name. I think the New Warriors would be a great banner to turn around after Civil War and that random-ass reboot and turn into Marvel's answer the Teen Titans.

I wouldn't mind that either, but the market would not support it. YOUNG ALLIES was very close to being a spiritual ancestor to NEW WARRIORS and it was dead by issue six. AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE had so many former Warriors that it may as well have been a NW comic in all but name, and it was relaunched into AVENGERS ACADEMY, which in terms of sales will itself struggle to see a 13th issue (issue 12 has been confirmed, at least).

Besides, Amadeus, Stature, and Vision Jr. were all official Avengers during the Slott run on Mighty. :up: Why a junior team?

[Specter313]

Logan apparently adopts a mentality that a few bad deeds, if bad enough, override all the good deeds in your life.

Which, when you think about it, makes you wonder why he hasn't killed himself yet. Dude's more of a bastard than virtually anyone else who claims to be a hero. :o

Exactly. I mean, I know it's a running plot point that he rightly accepts all the bad he's done in the past and why he'd rather he get his hands dirty again rather than let someone else fall down his old path, but the way he's written here, by his logic, he should be ex-communicated from the superhero community altogether.

[Specter313]

I wouldn't mind that either, but the market would not support it. YOUNG ALLIES was very close to being a spiritual ancestor to NEW WARRIORS and it was dead by issue six. AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE had so many former Warriors that it may as well have been a NW comic in all but name, and it was relaunched into AVENGERS ACADEMY, which in terms of sales will itself struggle to see a 13th issue (issue 12 has been confirmed, at least).

Besides, Amadeus, Stature, and Vision Jr. were all official Avengers during the Slott run on Mighty. :up: Why a junior team?

Heck, if the sales were what I remember, it was dead by issue 1. I'd love to see them do more with the majority of the young teams out there. I'd especially like to see them dig up the Loners again. And of course, the Runaways are still jumping around in limbo.

[Dread]

Exactly. I mean, I know it's a running plot point that he rightly accepts all the bad he's done in the past and why he'd rather he get his hands dirty again rather than let someone else fall down his old path, but the way he's written here, by his logic, he should be ex-communicated from the superhero community altogether.

The funny thing? Wolverine being so readily accepted by "the superhero community" is all very recent. During the 90's and even into the start of the Joe Q era, not all superheroes were fond with Wolverine. Most, such as Spider-Man or Capt. America, or even Daredevil, were disturbed that he often killed opponents. They saw him as not too many steps removed from Punisher. And half the time Wolverine didn't even get along with Punisher, or Ghost Rider, or other lethal vigilantes of the time. Now? The lethal vigilantes are probably the only heroes still adversarial with Logan. Spider-Man shares beers with him now. The rest of the Avengers accept him. Even Rogers seems to have forgotten during his year of "death" that he initially opposed having him be an Avenger. He's merrily showing up for Avengers BBQ's along with Jarvis and D-Man.

It's sort of like in the SPIDER-MAN or SHREK film universes, where the characters in a fictional universe decide to react to a figure in a way similar to how fans in real life do even when it makes no sense in terms of the narrative and in fact robs some appeal from the stories, eliminates conflict or opinion clashes. At what point did the fact that Wolverine shamelessly killed every enemy he faced become acceptable to the rest of the heroes? The same ones that condemned Hulk to space once? Anyone who doesn't think Wolverine is equally dangerous has never seen ENEMY OF THE STATE. Mark Millar seems to believe he could take the entire Marvel Universe, only unlike the Punisher, he sometimes does it in continuity.

Namor, for all his hot-headedness, once accepted punishment for his crimes against humanity. He walked into the electric chair and took it's volts. It didn't do a damn thing, but the gesture was nice. I doubt we'd ever see Logan do the same. But it's nice that he can be self righteous with other mutants.

Heck, if the sales were what I remember, it was dead by issue 1. I'd love to see them do more with the majority of the young teams out there. I'd especially like to see them dig up the Loners again. And of course, the Runaways are still jumping around in limbo.

The sales for YOUNG ALLIES were not healthy in it's debut, but it sold within the Top 100. After that, though, things got ugly. It at least made it to issue six, which some launches didn't. SPIDER-GIRL's debut isn't much healthier.

The Runaways have probably gotten the biggest and longest push as a new franchise of young heroes than anything else in Marvel. They got three volumes and some 4-5 years worth of stories. The rest just sort of enter limbo and bounce around as guest characters. The problem is fans and retailers know very well these newer characters are not very important and for all of Marvel's spin and bluster, they will cancel their titles and abandon them to rot at the first sign of adversity, at least 1 out of every 5 times. This isn't DC where it seems every launch makes it about 2 years. The era where any Marvel ongoing limped a year has been dead since about 2008.

There's actually a lot of potential in many of Marvel's newer, younger characters. The problem is nothing they do gets them to sell, or seem important (which would allow them to sell). Not even slapping Bendis on it may help; he couldn't make SPIDER-WOMAN sell, and SCARLET is hardly making KICK ASS 2 break a sweat.

[chamber-music]

Organicist. :o

I'd much rather see Cho, a few of the Young Avengers, and some other young heroes form a new New Warriors team. The Young Avengers, however you slice it, are always gonna be derivative of the Avengers. It's right there in their name. I think the New Warriors would be a great banner to turn around after Civil War and that random-ass reboot and turn into Marvel's answer the Teen Titans.

That would be cool but the Avengers brand is what sells so sticking avengers name on stuff is what they are doing until they decide that their are too many avengers titles and cancel a bunch of them like they did with the X-Men ten years ago. Young Avengers isn't an ongoing anyway.

[sideburnking]

I still need to get 'Children's Crusade' #4, when did it come out?
I am liking the series for the most part. Just a couple problem areas:
1. The bad guys they were fighting in the beginning of part 1 were so lame and stupid. I mean, how long are comics going to keep featuring ultra- stereotypical far- right redneck terrorists as villains before they realize it's getting old? The Civil War storyline proved Marvel can handle political commentary in a subtle, effective way, but this has all the subtlety of a sledgehammer. I'm just glad they were taken out quickly and never acknowledged again beyond the realization of how powerful/ unstable Wiccan's abilities proved to be when fighting them.
2. I know Wiccan's the star of this comic, but they could really stand to do more with the other members of the Young Avengers in this, especially Patriot and Stature.
3. As others have noted, they made Wolverine way too much of a jerk in this.
Other than that, though, it works. The writing's good, the artwork's GREAT (I'll be getting my issues signed by Cheung and Morales at Megacon in a couple months), and the twists keep me guessing.

[Dread]

I still need to get 'Children's Crusade' #4, when did it come out?
I am liking the series for the most part. Just a couple problem areas:
1. The bad guys they were fighting in the beginning of part 1 were so lame and stupid. I mean, how long are comics going to keep featuring ultra- stereotypical far- right redneck terrorists as villains before they realize it's getting old? The Civil War storyline proved Marvel can handle political commentary in a subtle, effective way, but this has all the subtlety of a sledgehammer. I'm just glad they were taken out quickly and never acknowledged again beyond the realization of how powerful/ unstable Wiccan's abilities proved to be when fighting them.
2. I know Wiccan's the star of this comic, but they could really stand to do more with the other members of the Young Avengers in this, especially Patriot and Stature.
3. As others have noted, they made Wolverine way too much of a jerk in this.
Other than that, though, it works. The writing's good, the artwork's GREAT (I'll be getting my issues signed by Cheung and Morales at Megacon in a couple months), and the twists keep me guessing.

1. To be fair, the Sons Of The Serpent are a very old band of villains who have clashed with superheroes many times, including the Avengers. They recently popped up in TASKMASTER #1, seeking the bounty on him. As for your question - when will comics stop using "ultra- stereotypical far- right redneck terrorists as villains" because "it's getting old" - there are two answers. The first is when liberals stop writing comic books, or at least when politics become less polarized and the idea of a "moderate" emerges again. The second is when there stop being ultra-stereotypical, far right lunatics who make news in the U.S. (or who appear as political pundits; there are extreme lunatics on both sides of the political commentary angle - so much so that it is easy to relate to pre-WWII Europeans, stuck between Fascists and Communists). I do agree that the metaphor was blunt, but many avenues of America have long had issues with homosexuals for reasons that to younger people in more blue-state areas seem bizarre. You'd think gay marriage would be legal in New York and California, the most gay-friendly states in the union, but they're not. "Don't Ask Don't Tell" was JUST reversed, and it only took 15+ years. There are far too many people out there who care more about what two men (or women) do in the privacy of their own homes than how their local and federal politicians are robbing them blind and dooming their economic future.

In terms of politics, most people write as if they're preaching to the choir.

2. I agree with you about Wiccan hogging the book. These characters are now 5-6 years old and many of them have not evolved past the cipher stage. Speed/Tommy especially needs to get some additional focus. The rest of the characters are just lost in a sea of the plot and other characters that only Billy is rising to the fore. True, Stature and Jonas got to be MIGHTY AVENGERS a while, but that leaves the rest. Hulkling doesn't do much but interact with Billy. Kate doesn't do much but be bossy to show that she's a better leader than Patriot is. I think the fundamental problem is that the YOUNG AVENGERS are not so much "the next generation of Avengers" but a gang of side-kicks that no hero wants (because Marvel heroes would rather teenage wards kill themselves, endanger the public with inexperience and then whine about it than dare inconvenience themselves taking them under their wings - the adult Avengers were just as clueless with Rick Jones back in the 60's)

3. I haven't seen Wolverine written this poorly since "X-MEN ORIGINS: WOLVERINE".

The rest of the book isn't bad, but some of these flaws are major. I've still seen nothing here that screams, "ONLY Allen Heinberg could have written this, so it was worth the wait." I imagine Christos Gage, Zeb Wells, Chris Yost, Jeff Parker, Fred Van Lente, or any number of writers could have worked from a general plotline from editorial and produced something that was, at worst, just as "good" as what Heinberg has penned.

[TheCorpulent1]

Civil War was subtle? :huh:

[JewishHobbit]

Organicist. :o

I'd much rather see Cho, a few of the Young Avengers, and some other young heroes form a new New Warriors team. The Young Avengers, however you slice it, are always gonna be derivative of the Avengers. It's right there in their name. I think the New Warriors would be a great banner to turn around after Civil War and that random-ass reboot and turn into Marvel's answer the Teen Titans.

I'd have loved that but I think it'd need to be a blend of young characters from all over the Marvel Universe for it to work.

Amadeus Cho
Stature
Vision 2.0
Phobos
Stonewall
Quake
Nico Minoru
Victor Mancha
Rockslide
Anole
Hellion
Wind Dancer/Reniscence
Chamber/Decibel
Gravity
Scarlet Spider (one of the MVP ones)
Komodo

Pick 6 or 7 of these characters and I think it'd be a very interesting book. But to sell it'd need a key player, perhaps as a trainer or leader that's a somewhat popular character. I'd be curious if maybe Professor Xavier expanded his dream to include all mankind and began teaching a team of young mutant/non-mutant heroes.

[hippie_hunter]

I think that the Young Avengers should add in Spider-Girl, Amadeus, and keep Iron Lad. I think the biggest problem with the team that it has simply remained Patriot, Hawkeye, Wiccan, Stature, Vision, Speed, and Hulkling for way too long. Let some new blood in. Spider-Girl would fit in because she isn't a direct sidekick to Spider-Man, but has that vague connection like Patriot/Captain America. I think Amadeus could really spice things up. And I think Teen Kang would just be plain awesome.

[JewishHobbit]

Keep Iron Lad but I'm iffy on the other two. I'd rather see Kristoff, the adopted son of Doom who was fairly heroic in the 90's FF comics. He has history with Cassie and her father (a crush on Cassie actually) and I think there could be some good stories there.

I've not been reading Thunderstrike but the son of the original Thunderstrike could be interesting as well.

[Dread]

Civil War was subtle? :huh:

I think he meant that it was capitalizing on a then current political environment.

It was subtle if you thought the Bush Administration in general and Conservatism in particular are/were evil. :o

I'd have loved that but I think it'd need to be a blend of young characters from all over the Marvel Universe for it to work.

Amadeus Cho
Stature
Vision 2.0
Phobos
Stonewall
Quake
Nico Minoru
Victor Mancha
Rockslide
Anole
Hellion
Wind Dancer/Reniscence
Chamber/Decibel
Gravity
Scarlet Spider (one of the MVP ones)
Komodo

Pick 6 or 7 of these characters and I think it'd be a very interesting book. But to sell it'd need a key player, perhaps as a trainer or leader that's a somewhat popular character. I'd be curious if maybe Professor Xavier expanded his dream to include all mankind and began teaching a team of young mutant/non-mutant heroes.

Professor X would never do that. The moment M-Day happened and half the Academy X cadets lost their powers, they were kicked off the mansion lawn and onto buses in 5 minutes. Where they subsequently got blown up. It was a great example of "co-existence". Preach about living together in peace with human beings, but only holing up in a mansion with your own kind and limiting interactions to only emergencies. Cyclops has kept that going, only become more militaristic.

I'm iffy on the notion of breaking up certain teams like the Runaways or the Secret Warriors, even if it may have to happen for them to move on. You know that if any character broke away from the Runaways, it would be Molly and no one else. That's the one Marvel's pushed the most outside the rest of them. Nico had a one-shot for MYSTIC ARCANA, but that was only by obligation to the premise.

All of that sort of speculation is moot when books like YOUNG ALLIES can't see a 7th issue and AVENGERS ACADEMY may limp to a 12th.

I think that the Young Avengers should add in Spider-Girl, Amadeus, and keep Iron Lad. I think the biggest problem with the team that it has simply remained Patriot, Hawkeye, Wiccan, Stature, Vision, Speed, and Hulkling for way too long. Let some new blood in. Spider-Girl would fit in because she isn't a direct sidekick to Spider-Man, but has that vague connection like Patriot/Captain America. I think Amadeus could really spice things up. And I think Teen Kang would just be plain awesome.

The problem is those are long term plans for the YA as a franchise, and Marvel has refused to make them without Allen Heinberg, and will continue to fail to make any until this CRUSADE is over and he either commits to more or officially backs off and says, "I'm done" and someone else can come in. Assuming that Axel Alonso has more backbone about that sort of thing than Joe Quesada.

Spider-Girl may not be a bad fit, nor a few of her allies from YOUNG ALLIES.

One fundamental problem is in order for YOUNG AVENGERS to really work as a premise, you need to genuinely believe these are the Avengers of the future. And they're not. They may be fine characters, but while Kate Bishop may call herself Hawkeye, no one treats her as the next Hawkeye. No one will confuse Hulkling for either Hulk or Capt. Marvel. Wiccan's connection to the Scarlet Witch is a scarlet letter. Some writers confuse this new Vision with the old one (like Ed Brubaker). The only one of them with a decent legacy connection is Stature, but she hasn't done much since MIGHTY AVENGERS ended. Instead the YA often feel like sidekicks in a world where no one wants them. Like virtually every young hero. Marvel is so eager to be the opposite of DC that their adult heroes are incredibly inconsiderate to anyone under drinking age in a costume. Even the X-Men these days treat their cadets like canon fodder, completely expendable if an older character must be saved.

Keep Iron Lad but I'm iffy on the other two. I'd rather see Kristoff, the adopted son of Doom who was fairly heroic in the 90's FF comics. He has history with Cassie and her father (a crush on Cassie actually) and I think there could be some good stories there.

I've not been reading Thunderstrike but the son of the original Thunderstrike could be interesting as well.

Kristoff last appeared in SPIDER-MAN AND THE FANTASTIC FOUR #4, and it was actually a damn good story (by Christos Gage). I expect no one else to jump on it, though. He apparently has his own armor again and wants to completely depose and destroy Dr. Doom. He also was angry at the Fantastic Four for seemingly abandoning him, although he relented his attack when it was shown they hadn't. It was about 12 years since he was last seen before then and I'll be stunned if he shows up in less than another 12 years. I do agree about the potential, but it will likely remain untapped.

The Avengers Academy has been noted as the ideal place for Thunderstrike Jr. to go to in his own mini. But, again, that was presume that it lasts beyond a year and Gage wants to share a character with DeFalco.

The fundamental problem with these "youngsters", even characters that have been around over 6 years now, and why they fail to connect to audiences and retailers and last a while, is because they rely on a premise that can never be achieved. The ideal of "these are the new blood of the Marvel U." is a fraud, a lie, and a sham, and everyone knows it. The old guard will never retire, never die, never go away. That's purely for commercial reasons of course, but it is still there. So long as there is a Spider-Man, a Spider-Woman, a Madam Web even, there is really no reason for Spider-Girl to exist, no void to fill. Night-Thrasher in some ways could have been the Tony Stark of the 90's, only Tony Stark was still alive and well. Ever since the end of the 90's, when two New Warriors were Avengers, Marvel has done a poor job of having some of these characters rise through ranks. Sure, Nova was a SECRET AVENGER, for all of 4 issues and he did NADA. Justice & Firestar were Avengers for YEARS, and had MANY ADVENTURES with them. Dan Slott, bless his heart, genuinely tried to do that with Stature and Vision Jr. as Avengers.

I think if Marvel were genuinely serious about their newer characters, they would do as an event a longer version of DC's "world without grown ups" thing. DC used that to help promote and launch YOUNG JUSTICE, which was such a bad comic it only lasted 50 issues (sarcasm). Something would happen and every well known, established super hero and heroine would be GONE. Poof. Vanished. Staff writers for 6-12 months would basically be handled whatever younger characters they wanted and would roll from there. It would be a huge gamble and even sales suicide, but to be honest Marvel is "eating themselves to death" like Pizza The Hut from "SPACEBALLS" in terms of comic sales anyway. And it would take nothing short of that to make retailers and fans give a **** about any of these younger characters. They could even get cheeky about DC and go, "They bring you the SILVER AGE, we bring you the NEW AGE" or whatever. And that's the premise. The adults are all gone. Now it's your time to put up or shut up, Young Marvel Heroes. You up for it? And not even the readers have a choice. The dilemma is that all of the fans may just jump off, but maybe, just maybe, if Marvel lowered prices and didn't write garbage (and hide their gems among it), that might not happen. Daffy idea, I know. But I honestly feel that is the only way you are ever going to get any hype around any character made after the year 2000, or even 1995.

[TheCorpulent1]

I think that the Young Avengers should add in Spider-Girl, Amadeus, and keep Iron Lad. I think the biggest problem with the team that it has simply remained Patriot, Hawkeye, Wiccan, Stature, Vision, Speed, and Hulkling for way too long. Let some new blood in. Spider-Girl would fit in because she isn't a direct sidekick to Spider-Man, but has that vague connection like Patriot/Captain America. I think Amadeus could really spice things up. And I think Teen Kang would just be plain awesome.
Really? You think the roster is the biggest problem? Not that they were effectively put on hold for like 4 years by Heinberg's ego and Joe Q's desperation for big TV names, only to return with a thoroughly underwhelming series so far?

[Dread]

Really? You think the roster is the biggest problem? Not that they were effectively put on hold for like 4 years by Heinberg's ego and Joe Q's desperation for big TV names?

That was the other problem, yes.

So far at least, the sales for CHILDREN'S CRUSADE have remained steady around 35k. Which isn't the biggest audience, and maybe half what it was in 2005, but it's better than some. Most new launches would kill for 35k and to stay there.

[TheCorpulent1]

I chalk that up to Cheung's lovely art. :o

[JewishHobbit]

I think if Marvel were genuinely serious about their newer characters, they would do as an event a longer version of DC's "world without grown ups" thing. DC used that to help promote and launch YOUNG JUSTICE, which was such a bad comic it only lasted 50 issues (sarcasm). Something would happen and every well known, established super hero and heroine would be GONE. Poof. Vanished. Staff writers for 6-12 months would basically be handled whatever younger characters they wanted and would roll from there. It would be a huge gamble and even sales suicide, but to be honest Marvel is "eating themselves to death" like Pizza The Hut from "SPACEBALLS" in terms of comic sales anyway. And it would take nothing short of that to make retailers and fans give a **** about any of these younger characters. They could even get cheeky about DC and go, "They bring you the SILVER AGE, we bring you the NEW AGE" or whatever. And that's the premise. The adults are all gone. Now it's your time to put up or shut up, Young Marvel Heroes. You up for it? And not even the readers have a choice. The dilemma is that all of the fans may just jump off, but maybe, just maybe, if Marvel lowered prices and didn't write garbage (and hide their gems among it), that might not happen. Daffy idea, I know. But I honestly feel that is the only way you are ever going to get any hype around any character made after the year 2000, or even 1995.

Now THAT is something I'd LOVE to see. I've never heard of the DC equivalent you're talking about but I'm envisioning some powerhouse villain or group of villains finding a method to put all of the best known heroes to sleep leaving the children and underdogs left to defend the world from their rising power. I'm thinking Kang or Magus or something like that.

The X-Titles would have to rely on the New X-Men and the Five Lights for an arc or two. X-Factor might have Layla alone. Avengers would be the Young Avengers and the Academy kids. Spider-Girl would take over Amazing Spider-Man. Iron Lad would take over Invincible Iron Man. Thunderstrike would take over Thor. Nomad would take over Captain America. Skaar would be the Incredible Hulk star. Put some focus on the Runaways, some of the Young Allies, some surviving Secret Warriors, and former Initiative cadets.

Tie it all together leading to the ultimate throwdown of young heroes versus major badguys for the sake of the lost heroes. In the end there'd be a new respect for the young heroes of the Marvel Universe from both sides of the panels. I'm thinking do it in an Age of Apocalypse type of format.

Man... that idea is all kinds of juicy goodness!

[TheCorpulent1]

Much as I love Thor, I'd be all for a Thunderstrike/Tarene comic in place of his comic, provided Fraction doesn't get to stink that one up, too.

[C.B.C.D]

I think a Marvel version of world without grown-ups would be very cool. Marvel have alot of great young character.

[hippie_hunter]

Really? You think the roster is the biggest problem? Not that they were effectively put on hold for like 4 years by Heinberg's ego and Joe Q's desperation for big TV names, only to return with a thoroughly underwhelming series so far?

Well the complete lack of not having any new characters can be attributed to not doing anything with the characters due to waiting for Heinberg :o

[hippie_hunter]

The problem is those are long term plans for the YA as a franchise, and Marvel has refused to make them without Allen Heinberg, and will continue to fail to make any until this CRUSADE is over and he either commits to more or officially backs off and says, "I'm done" and someone else can come in. Assuming that Axel Alonso has more backbone about that sort of thing than Joe Quesada.
And that is why I am rather annoyed with Heinberg. His refusal to commit to writing comics properly has ruined the Wonder Woman relaunch and allowed the Young Avengers to become severely stale.

One fundamental problem is in order for YOUNG AVENGERS to really work as a premise, you need to genuinely believe these are the Avengers of the future. And they're not. They may be fine characters, but while Kate Bishop may call herself Hawkeye, no one treats her as the next Hawkeye. No one will confuse Hulkling for either Hulk or Capt. Marvel. Wiccan's connection to the Scarlet Witch is a scarlet letter. Some writers confuse this new Vision with the old one (like Ed Brubaker). The only one of them with a decent legacy connection is Stature, but she hasn't done much since MIGHTY AVENGERS ended. Instead the YA often feel like sidekicks in a world where no one wants them. Like virtually every young hero. Marvel is so eager to be the opposite of DC that their adult heroes are incredibly inconsiderate to anyone under drinking age in a costume. Even the X-Men these days treat their cadets like canon fodder, completely expendable if an older character must be saved.
I think that Young Avengers works better as if they are sidekicks that no one really wants. Hell, the Avengers even tried to get them to step down. By having them be true sidekicks that would eventually take the place of their "mentors" would be far too much like the Teen Titans where we have already seen Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Wally West, and Garth fill in the roles of Batman, Wonder Woman, the Flash, and King of Atlantis when they died/disappeared.

The characters work better when they have more vague connections to the heroes they are inspired by like Patriot/Captain America, Hawkeye/Hawkeye, Speed/Quicksilver, Wiccan/Scarlet Witch and Thor, Hulkling/Hulk and Captain Marvel, Vision/Vision, Iron Lad/Iron Man, Stature/Scott Lang and Hank Pym. Giving the characters a more direction connection like Bucky has with Captain America takes away what makes the Young Avengers unique and again makes them rip-offs of the Teen Titans.

[Dread]

I chalk that up to Cheung's lovely art. :o

Artists aren't as big a draw these days as they were in the 90's. That said, his artwork has been quite good. Sure, some of the costumes are off, but that's not his fault. He made Wanda look very pretty in a wedding dress. :awesome:

Now THAT is something I'd LOVE to see. I've never heard of the DC equivalent you're talking about but I'm envisioning some powerhouse villain or group of villains finding a method to put all of the best known heroes to sleep leaving the children and underdogs left to defend the world from their rising power. I'm thinking Kang or Magus or something like that.

The X-Titles would have to rely on the New X-Men and the Five Lights for an arc or two. X-Factor might have Layla alone. Avengers would be the Young Avengers and the Academy kids. Spider-Girl would take over Amazing Spider-Man. Iron Lad would take over Invincible Iron Man. Thunderstrike would take over Thor. Nomad would take over Captain America. Skaar would be the Incredible Hulk star. Put some focus on the Runaways, some of the Young Allies, some surviving Secret Warriors, and former Initiative cadets.

Tie it all together leading to the ultimate throwdown of young heroes versus major badguys for the sake of the lost heroes. In the end there'd be a new respect for the young heroes of the Marvel Universe from both sides of the panels. I'm thinking do it in an Age of Apocalypse type of format.

Man... that idea is all kinds of juicy goodness!

Chaos King basically put all (or most) of the mortals to sleep in CHAOS WAR, but for it to really hit the gut as an "event", they'd have to be gone. Like, beamed to another realm/time/who knows. To at least go through the motions of death while making it clear that it may not last forever, since, c'mon, it can't commercially. And to make it stick that would mean not giving into the temptation to launch a side mini chronicling where they are. No, they're just gone. And whoever did it is all, "BWAHAHAHA, I finally got rid of them all! Now it's our time, boys!" and it's up to the kids to either put up or shut up, basically. It also introduces which of them would want to try to bring the adults back versus those who might like the chance at the big time and not want to "hand it back" when it's all over. It could still be an interesting character and moral dilemma besides just being a youth promoting gimmick.

But, yeah, you have the idea. AMAZING SPIDER-MAN becomes AMAZING SPIDER-GIRL #600-whatever and Dan Slott would have X amount of months to write her or whatever. THOR would have Thunderstrike and/or Tarene or whoever. CAPTAIN AMERICA might have Nomad or Patriot or whatever. Titles like X-MEN or AVENGERS would remain the same, just the rosters would be different.

Youngsters who can never, and will never, have their day in the sun when it counts taking over sort of just fade into oblivion. There have been 600 junior teams of X-Men but still the same ol' Cyclops or Beast or even Wolverine at the top. Well, now they're gone.

This is all brainstorming, of course. The reward is barely bigger than the risk. The risk is that fans collectively go, "no, we don't care" and abandon the books in droves, and never return. Even offering first issues of the event at, say, $2.50 may not help. It could go down as the worst stunt since #-1 in the 90's. But I honestly don't see much else helping boost the importance of the newer blood characters beyond something drastic. Fans didn't turn out for MC2, and they don't turn out for new characters or teams of them. Yes, even X-23 and DAKEN are hardly sales juggernauts (they should last a year, but then what). The only thing that sells is if they think it is important. I can think of no other way to make the kids important besides literally doing it by force.

Still, the idea amuses me more than the idea for FEAR ITSELF.

Much as I love Thor, I'd be all for a Thunderstrike/Tarene comic in place of his comic, provided Fraction doesn't get to stink that one up, too.

If he only had 8 issues, he could speed things up a tad. :p

I think a Marvel version of world without grown-ups would be very cool. Marvel have alot of great young character.

Glad so many liked my idea.

And that is why I am rather annoyed with Heinberg. His refusal to commit to writing comics properly has ruined the Wonder Woman relaunch and allowed the Young Avengers to become severely stale.

Indeed. News flash; GREY'S ANATOMY WASN'T THAT GOOD! Get over the man-love, Marvel! YA still has a small but loyal audience, but I don't know how long that will last if the franchise enters another deep freeze in 2012.

I think that Young Avengers works better as if they are sidekicks that no one really wants. Hell, the Avengers even tried to get them to step down. By having them be true sidekicks that would eventually take the place of their "mentors" would be far too much like the Teen Titans where we have already seen Dick Grayson, Donna Troy, Wally West, and Garth fill in the roles of Batman, Wonder Woman, the Flash, and King of Atlantis when they died/disappeared.

The characters work better when they have more vague connections to the heroes they are inspired by like Patriot/Captain America, Hawkeye/Hawkeye, Speed/Quicksilver, Wiccan/Scarlet Witch and Thor, Hulkling/Hulk and Captain Marvel, Vision/Vision, Iron Lad/Iron Man, Stature/Scott Lang and Hank Pym. Giving the characters a more direction connection like Bucky has with Captain America takes away what makes the Young Avengers unique and again makes them rip-offs of the Teen Titans.

Marvel has always wanted their own Teen Titans in a way, though. TEEN TITANS was neck and neck with UXM in the 80's. NEW WARRIORS was launched to try to capitalize on that idea. Marvel has tried launching no end of youth teams since. AVENGERS: THE INITIATIVE was very close to being NW's in all but name.

Is it realistic that all the adult heroes would let these kids risk themselves and die without either arresting them or being dipsticks, or is it just longtime editorial philosophy hampering logical conclusion writing? Because how I see it, the Avengers haven't known how to handle anyone under 18 since they told Rick Jones to take a hike in the 60's, only for him to become road buddies with the Hulk (which HAD to be riskier than being Bucky, c'mon Cap). The adult heroes tell the Young Avengers to quit or else on one hand, but the moment there's a crisis, they "draft" them as canon fodder, such as for CIVIL WAR or SIEGE. How about giving them the benefit of the doubt or some assistance in between?

I'd just like to see more crapping or getting off the pot with some of these characters. We'll see how things change with Alonso in the hot seat.

[NightBeetle]

Cup O' (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=30683)Joe TALK TO THE HAT: All Fan Friday (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=30683)

http://i51.tinypic.com/iqd6dz.jpg

Next up, we've got a run of Avenger questions from marvell2100, who starts out saying "With the return of Iron Lad in 'Avengers: The Children's Crusade,' will we see the return of the old Vision? He's been gone for a really long time. I've always thought of him as a cornerstone of the Avengers. Also, he needs to be with Wanda again."

Tom Brevoort: The only thing I can tell you at the moment, Marvell2100, obviously, is to keep reading "Avengers: The Children's Crusade," because if anything like that were to be happening, that's likely the place where it would occur. But no promises!

[Thread Manager]

This thread is now closed it has a continuation thread 347932