You didn't listen, people...

[Gregatron]

...I told you that things would get worse and worse and worse. I told you that most changes to a character and his core concepts are detrimental, and that the illusion of change is the safest, sanest bet.

And now look at just how dire things are.


"Wait! You're wrong! JMS and Joey Q have a plan! They're gonna retcon and reboot everything in a few months, and everything'll be better! Just wait a little longer, and it'll be better!"


Wrong.

Any such "solution" (at least one that's concocted by the current Powers-That-Be) will simply dig Spider-Man into an even deeper and danker hole than the one he's been in for years, now.

And desperate fanboys will try to convince themselves that it's okay, and that if everyone waits just "a little while longer", it'll all magically get better.

Nevermind that these same "saviors" who will ostensibly dig Spider-Man out of this never-ending hole are the very same people who jammed him even further down into it than he already was, right?

[The Fonz]

You seem to have a problem with the way Spider-Man is headed. Do like me and stop reading the book.

[Gregatron]

Did that after "Sins Past", friend.

[stillanerd]

Welcome back Gregatron. Guess you are well deserved of the title "Prophet of Spider-Man's ultimate doom." :)

Seriously, I think part of the reason why some posters gave you the brush off was because of your stance on the Spider-Man marriage (which I do like BTW) which became a little repetitive. However, I will say that, having read some of your posts over at Byrne robotics, you definately are right on target with regards to how far off track Spider-Man has become.

Also, the irony doesn't escape me in the slightest that the very people who brought Spider-Man to this state are going to "fix" him by next year. Sure, I believe Spider-Man's secret identity will be restored--especially in time for the third Spider-Man movie--but whatever "solution" they come up with will probably be contrivied and the stain of a "Peter publicly revealing himself as Spider-Man" will linger, much like the stain of "Spider-Man was a clone" and "Gwen Stacy slept with Norman Osborn" will be.

[Arach Knight]

Ah Gregatron. Rarely have you and I seen eye to eye. I wouldn't say that makes you my nemesis, but upon every occasion in which we have butted heads...we never agree. This however, is not one of those times. I know I have often berated you because of your Looney Tunes stance on comic books (characters that never progress from their origin, thus safely remaining true to their character), I can agree that in all four decades of Spider-Man's history, it has only taken four of those years, to utterly undo the previous 36 years. His list of powers are not only increasing, but some of his older powers are completely different. His mannerisms have changed, as has his costume (he no longer even has the same color scheme). Much of what makes Spider-Man, Spider-Man, is very much a dead thing. All that is left to him, is humor...and even that fades in the constant face of mythyical ressurections and spider-gods. I still remain hopeful though. At some point, things will crash down around them, and somebody else will have to pick up the pieces. This is what happened with the clones, and that is what will happen with spider-gods and unmaskings.

[Gregatron]

Ah Gregatron. Rarely have you and I seen eye to eye. I wouldn't say that makes you my nemesis, but upon every occasion in which we have butted heads...we never agree. This however, is not one of those times. I know I have often berated you because of your Looney Tunes stance on comic books (characters that never progress from their origin, thus safely remaining true to their character), I can agree that in all four decades of Spider-Man's history, it has only taken four of those years, to utterly undo the previous 36 years. His list of powers are not only increasing, but some of his older powers are completely different. His mannerisms have changed, as has his costume (he no longer even has the same color scheme). Much of what makes Spider-Man, Spider-Man, is very much a dead thing. All that is left to him, is humor...and even that fades in the constant face of mythyical ressurections and spider-gods. I still remain hopeful though. At some point, things will crash down around them, and somebody else will have to pick up the pieces. This is what happened with the clones, and that is what will happen with spider-gods and unmaskings.

As usual, you misinterpret my past statements.

Still, this is a first step.

In time, you will call me "Master".

[Citizen_Kaine]

I've stopped reading 616 Spidey as well, lots of people seem to, you've missed some good times Greg :up:

[Arach Knight]

As usual, you misinterpret my past statements.

Still, this is a first step.

In time, you will call me "Master".

Haha...a mix of Star Wars humor, with a Spider-Man discussion. Somethings in life, only nerds can do or enjoy.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

I never had a problem with Greg thinkin' current Spidey is crap. Hell, I say that daily. We've all said that. I have a problem with his "keep everything stagnant" attitude, though. And there's the pretentiousness which likes to ebb through...grating.

I stand by my stance that character evolution is NOT bad, but change fer the sake of change is. Up until the clone saga (which I liked, FYI), there was character evolution. Since, it's all about change fer the sake of change, and that is our true enemy.

[ru8up75]

I totally agree with you stillanerd, I dont know how people who screwed Spidey up so bad are ever gonna fix it to a point that fans can ever stop hating Marvel's guts for what they have done, they would really need to hit this one out of the park.

[hulkamania85]

Dude, you haven't said anything 100 other people haven't said already. So I don't get the whole "I told you so" stuff, when everyone was figuring it out at the same time.

[Won '08]

Spidey's current direction is fantastic in my eyes. No prophecy has been fulfilled. Keep trying !

[Kevin]

when you read this, don't mind me, i'm crazy. anyway, you know what would be funny? if marvel has been destroying spidey on person for the last few years. bascically, he marvel's BIGGEST character. yes, even bigger then-- OH MY GOD-- WOLVERINE!! if spidey goes down, ALL goes down. and that would be the end of the marvel company. You're like "what? shut the f*** up!you're making no sense!! why would they destroy themselves like that?!?" why? fresh blood. fresh blood called ULTIMATE marvel. again, don't mind me, it's just that if i thought that everything that made the company famous in the FIRST place was wrong, i'd do this. also, it's because i'm stupid.

[Doc Destruction]

I'm in the same boat you are, Greg. Sins Past was absolutely the beginning of the end. I've been saying that for awhile, and trying desperately to understand why anyone likes what is going on right now.

Ah well, at least I have a heavier wallet to go with my heavier heart I guess.

[Dangerous]

...I told you that things would get worse and worse and worse. I told you that most changes to a character and his core concepts are detrimental, and that the illusion of change is the safest, sanest bet.

And now look at just how dire things are.


"Wait! You're wrong! JMS and Joey Q have a plan! They're gonna retcon and reboot everything in a few months, and everything'll be better! Just wait a little longer, and it'll be better!"


Wrong.

Any such "solution" (at least one that's concocted by the current Powers-That-Be) will simply dig Spider-Man into an even deeper and danker hole than the one he's been in for years, now.

And desperate fanboys will try to convince themselves that it's okay, and that if everyone waits just "a little while longer", it'll all magically get better.

Nevermind that these same "saviors" who will ostensibly dig Spider-Man out of this never-ending hole are the very same people who jammed him even further down into it than he already was, right?

Buddy I dunno what ya talking about.

I dropped ASM like a bad habit months ago and have known for a long time that the situation is critical. Now w/ Spidey unmasking it seems there is no limit to how crap stuff will get, and I am definatley under no illusion about any of the current writers fixing anything.

[Won '08]

Greg is just drunk off of whiskey. He thinks things are horrible.


When they aren't.

[SpideyInATree]

When they aren't.

It depends on how people are looking at it.

Sins Past and The Other were horrible ideas and The Other was poorly, poorly executed and made the totem storyline, in my opinion, worthless.

Sins Remembered actually made things WORSE with that part of the story, if that was even possible.

There have been a lot of bright spots though that have been overlooked because of all the focus on the negativity.

However, I'm behind the unmasking...as it's a plot idea I've been wanting to see for many, many years. My only concern is how they execute getting his secret identity. You know it's going to happen soon. Peter is going to find out that Tony Stark was sort of manipulating him to use him as an example to further push for the heroes to register. Pete's GONNA be pissed, and unfortunately for Pete...all his rogues are gonna be gunning for him.

I see nothing but excitement and intrigue on the horizon. As I said, it all depends on how you're viewing things. If you're picking up these books with nothing but negative thoughts on your mind and wanting to hate JMS and Quesada all the time. Yeah, you're going to be VERY disappointed.

[Won '08]

It depends on how people are looking at it.

Sins Past and The Other were horrible ideas and The Other was poorly, poorly executed and made the totem storyline, in my opinion, worthless.

Sins Remembered actually made things WORSE with that part of the story, if that was even possible.

There have been a lot of bright spots though that have been overlooked because of all the focus on the negativity.

However, I'm behind the unmasking...as it's a plot idea I've been wanting to see for many, many years. My only concern is how they execute getting his secret identity. You know it's going to happen soon. Peter is going to find out that Tony Stark was sort of manipulating him to use him as an example to further push for the heroes to register. Pete's GONNA be pissed, and unfortunately for Pete...all his rogues are gonna be gunning for him.

I see nothing but excitement and intrigue on the horizon. As I said, it all depends on how you're viewing things. If you're picking up these books with nothing but negative thoughts on your mind and wanting to hate JMS and Quesada all the time. Yeah, you're going to be VERY disappointed. I love the Other storyline but it was poorly executed. Very poorly written, beyond that sins past can be retconned. everything else just needs a good ol re-write.

[SpideyInATree]

I love the Other storyline but it was poorly executed. Very poorly written, beyond that sins past can be retconned. everything else just needs a good ol re-write.

Easier said than done. Look what Marvel did when they went retconning after the Clone Saga. Baby May gets written into obscurity. Resurrection of Aunt May.

Very, very, very bad moves.

Yes, the powers that be may be different but sometimes retconning everything is the wrong thing to do in some cases.

The unmasking? Yes, I can see that.

But Sins Past? It's best to ignore the hell out of it, personally.

And The Other? A little harder to ignore, but to make the totem storyline make better sense I ignore The Other and it works just fine with me.

But if they've got a nice retcon in place, by all means lets see it. I just don't want anymore Baby May's and Aunt May resurrection-like things happening again.

[savemarvel]

Easier said than done. Look what Marvel did when they went retconning after the Clone Saga. Baby May gets written into obscurity. Resurrection of Aunt May.

Very, very, very bad moves.

Yes, the powers that be may be different but sometimes retconning everything is the wrong thing to do in some cases.

The unmasking? Yes, I can see that.

But Sins Past? It's best to ignore the hell out of it, personally.

And The Other? A little harder to ignore, but to make the totem storyline make better sense I ignore The Other and it works just fine with me.

But if they've got a nice retcon in place, by all means lets see it. I just don't want anymore Baby May's and Aunt May resurrection-like things happening again.

I rather have Baby May back than the crap Joe Q is putting out now. At least Baby May would have been a step forward for the character than the mile backwards Joe Q and his army of mediocre writers are doing with him now.:spidey:

[roach]

I have repented...the Spider-comics are crap

[SpideyInATree]

I rather have Baby May back than the crap Joe Q is putting out now. At least Baby May would have been a step forward for the character than the mile backwards Joe Q and his army of mediocre writers are doing with him now.:spidey:

That's kind of what I was saying. They should have just had MJ and Pete get Baby May back instead of doing it the way they did. Now THAT was a time of some seriously messed up poo poo decisions.

But to use mediocre writers...eh. I wouldn't.

[savemarvel]

.

The unmasking? Yes, I can see that.



The unmasking was the worse decision by a comic book company ever and trust me, Marvel will pay for it.:)

[Upset Spideyfan]

I have repented...the Spider-comics are crap



Good... Good.... Your hate has made you powerful.

[SpideyInATree]

The unmasking was the worse decision by a comic book company ever and trust me, Marvel will pay for it.:)

You haven't really read comic books for very long have you? Heh.

And tis but your opinion, I think it's a great idea.

But what I was talking about was retconing the unmasking, according to an interview with Kevin Smith he's confirmed that Marvel has a back door for putting the secret identity back with Spidey. I'm just apprehensive as to what it will be and how it will come about.

[savemarvel]

You haven't really read comic books for very long have you? Heh.

And tis but your opinion, I think it's a great idea.

But what I was talking about was retconing the unmasking, according to an interview with Kevin Smith he's confirmed that Marvel has a back door for putting the secret identity back with Spidey. I'm just apprehensive as to what it will be and how it will come about.

I have been reading comic books a lot longer than i think you have been alive (almost 26 years) and this is the worse thing marvel or any company has done. This is a ticking time bomb for marvel and It will blow up in their faces big time.:marv:

[Dangerous]

It depends on how people are looking at it.

Sins Past and The Other were horrible ideas and The Other was poorly, poorly executed and made the totem storyline, in my opinion, worthless.

Sins Remembered actually made things WORSE with that part of the story, if that was even possible.

Don't forget SP was also very poorly executed.

There have been a lot of bright spots though that have been overlooked because of all the focus on the negativity.

However, I'm behind the unmasking...as it's a plot idea I've been wanting to see for many, many years. My only concern is how they execute getting his secret identity. You know it's going to happen soon. Peter is going to find out that Tony Stark was sort of manipulating him to use him as an example to further push for the heroes to register. Pete's GONNA be pissed, and unfortunately for Pete...all his rogues are gonna be gunning for him.

I see nothing but excitement and intrigue on the horizon. As I said, it all depends on how you're viewing things. If you're picking up these books with nothing but negative thoughts on your mind and wanting to hate JMS and Quesada all the time. Yeah, you're going to be VERY disappointed.

Ok your opinion, but the unmasking now changes ANOTHER crucial defining trait about the character (his identity being a secret) that has basically remained unchanged for 44 years of continuity.
Spider-man is no longer the character I came to know as the greatest superhero ever, instead current 616 Spidey plays like some **** 'What If' version of the wall crawler.

You might see excitement and intrigue on cards, but all I can see is a EIC /writer who have completely lost sight of who Spider-man is and how to write him to the point that they continually resort to creating these shock mega events that only serve to further erode/destroy the legend of the real Spider-man, I’m talking about the legend that was defined by Stan Lee, Gerry Conway & Roger Stern baby.

[Dangerous]

I have been reading comic books a lot longer than i think you have been alive (almost 26 years) and this is the worse thing marvel or any company has done. This is a ticking time bomb for marvel and It will blow up in their faces big time.:marv:

Preach brother,

[SpideyInATree]

I have been reading comic books a lot longer than i think you have been alive (almost 26 years) and this is the worse thing marvel or any company has done. This is a ticking time bomb for marvel and It will blow up in their faces big time.:marv:

And so far I highly disagree with you. I'm still reserving my full judgement, as the story hasn't even really GONE anywhere yet, heh.

But if you want something that is a dumb move? Having fans dial a 900 number to determine whether a character lives or dies. No offense but that's a HELL of a lot dumber than having Spider-Man take his mask off.



Well, for what Sins Past was it was pretty well executed...minus the Mary Jane part. I had trouble believing she'd keep it from Peter all those years. It was a dumb idea and if you read the old stories building up to Gwen's death you'll see that it's virtually impossible for that to have happened, even if they originally would have gone with Peter as the father it still would have been rather impossible.

Ok your opinion, but the unmasking now changes ANOTHER crucial defining trait about the character (his identity being a secret) that has basically remained unchanged for 44 years of continuity.
Spider-man is no longer the character I came to know as the greatest superhero ever, instead current 616 Spidey plays like some **** 'What If' version of the wall crawler.

You might see excitement and intrigue on cards, but all I can see is a EIC /writer who have completely lost sight of who Spider-man is and how to write him to the point that they continually resort to creating these shock mega events that only serve to further erode/destroy the legend of the real Spider-man, I’m talking about the legend that was defined by Stan Lee, Gerry Conway & Roger Stern baby.

So, Spider-Man has to have a secret identity for you to still believe that he's the greatest superhero ever? Maybe you're factoring in all the "other" things that have happened to him, but I still don't see that taking away from whether or not you view him as the greatest superhero.

And that's what I was trying to tell Won '08, it all depends on how you're viewing things. I see excitement and intrigue. How Ock is going to react in Sensational Spider-Man. How we're going to have Osborn, Venom, and Bullseye after Spidey later in Civil War. How Pete is going to eventually switch sides and probably be VERY pissed at Tony Stark. JJJ's full reaction. Flash Thompsons. The public's reaction to it. And it's got me pumped for ANYTHING and EVERYTHING Spider-Man.

If I viewed it like you do automatically blaming JMS and Quesada for everything, yes, I'd probably be a little more beside myself. But I've explained myself and how I read my Spider-Man comics. I reacted like this during the screwing of Baby May and the resurrection of Aunt May...and it caused me to stop reading comic books for 5 years and I regretted doing that, because I missed A LOT of great comics. I really like Spider-Man and I'm not letting two storylines, Sins Past and The Other, ruin my Spider-Man experience. And I'm not letting Joe Quesada's dumbass comments over the years ruin my experience either.

As I said, it's how you're viewing everything and how you read Spidey.

[savemarvel]

But if you want something that is a dumb move? Having fans dial a 900 number to determine whether a character lives or dies. No offense but that's a HELL of a lot dumber than having Spider-Man take his mask off.
.

Say what you may about the 900 number stunt but it was still much better written and much better executed than the unmasking travesty done by Marvel plus the characters stayed true to who they were, unlike Civil War.

[SpideyInATree]

Say what you may about the 900 number stunt, it was still much better written and much better executed than the unmasking travesty done by marvel plus the characters stayed true to who they were, unlike Civil War.

But the characters have stayed true to who they are. I mean, just because you don't enjoy a plot idea doesn't mean that it's a mischaracterization. I thought that everything leading up to the ending of Civil War # 2 was handled with respect and written well.

The story was good, yeah. But Jason Todd shouldn't have died. It was well documented that many DC creators were purposely calling a bunch of times to fix the decision. You think that's very fair to the fans? I sure don't. A lot worse than what Quesada has done, at least he's done good for Marvel as well as made dumb decisions.

[savemarvel]

But the characters have stayed true to who they are. I mean, just because you don't enjoy a plot idea doesn't mean that it's a mischaracterization. I thought that everything leading up to the ending of Civil War # 2 was handled with respect and written well.

The story was good, yeah. But Jason Todd shouldn't have died. It was well documented that many DC creators were purposely calling a bunch of times to fix the decision. You think that's very fair to the fans? I sure don't. A lot worse than what Quesada has done, at least he's done good for Marvel as well as made dumb decisions.

If you knew your history( and you don't) you would have notice that a great majority of the fans hated Jason Todd with a passion and the whole stunt was done by Dc in order to let the fans decide his fate. Dc at least respected their fan base enough to let them have their say about what will happen to the character( a close vote by the way) unlike Marvel who took a icon and rape him with out any regard on how fans would take it. Not only that but they went against what the character stood for and what he been though just to try to sell this. It not only spits in the face of his history but it went against what he stood for as well.

Now you tell me which is worse?

[Won '08]

If you knew your history( and you don't) you would have notice that a great majority of the fans hated Jason Todd with a passion and the whole stunt was done by Dc in order to let the fans decide his fate. Dc at least respected their fan base enough to let them have their say about what will happen to the character( a close vote by the way) unlike Marvel who took a icon and rape him with out any regard on how fans would take it. Not only that but they went against what the character stood for and what he been though just to try to sell this. It not only spits in the face of his history but it went against what he stood for as well.

Now you tell me which is worse? Whats worse? Crack-Cocaine. Get off of it.:up:

You're telling me because DC had a poll on wether to kill a character that was well liked and muchly despised (only because people recognized Dick as Robin rather than Jason) that they respected their readers?

You know what respect to a fan base is? Churning out stories that keep us coming back for more.

Not placing the main character of the stories we love in positions where he will smile everyday and encounter the EXACT SAME trials and tribulations year in-decade out.

The House of Ideas has been fighting to reclaim their respect in the Marvel game. Because of such, they rush, leaving many stories lacking.

Your OPINION is yours alone.

Granted.

But to say that they're ruining a character because they're putting him through a new adventure (Finally!) is quite a spit in the mask of Spidey himself.

[savemarvel]

Whats worse? Crack-Cocaine. Get off of it.:up:



Now you know the mentality of a brainless Marvel zombie who loves taking it in the rear.:)

[Kevin]

i say the unmasking is good. it's NEW for one thing. spider-man has done EVERYTHING already. this is new and exciting, but some people just can't handle it. i keep hearing "spidey taking off his mask is not being true to his character" and "blah blah blah" i say he is. what people need to realize is that what makes spidey spider-man in the first place is PETER. PETER has always did what he thought right for his family. PETER has been the way he's always been since 1962. PETER is the reason why people got so pissed when marvel said Ben was the real spider-man. Spider-man is about a young man and his everyday life and his family. that's how it was in '62 and that's how it is now. the last thing i'm trying to do is sound all high and mighty and no-it-all, but if your a true spider-man fan, you should know that the real star is and always has been Peter Parker, same character since 1962. that's what should be important. (i know most of this doesn't make sense, but i'm willing to go farther on this if needed)

[savemarvel]

i say the unmasking is good. it's NEW for one thing. spider-man has done EVERYTHING already. this is new and exciting, but some people just can't handle it. i keep hearing "spidey taking off his mask is not being true to his character" and "blah blah blah" i say he is. what people need to realize is that what makes spidey spider-man in the first place is PETER. PETER has always did what he thought right for his family. PETER has been the way he's always been since 1962. PETER is the reason why people got so pissed when marvel said Ben was the real spider-man. Spider-man is about a young man and his everyday life and his family. that's how it was in '62 and that's how it is now. the last thing i'm trying to do is sound all high and mighty and no-it-all, but if your a true spider-man fan, you should know that the real star is and always has been Peter Parker, same character since 1962. that's what should be important. (i know most of this doesn't make sense, but i'm willing to go farther on this if needed)

Peter Parker has grown up over the years and has experience much in his course of being Spider-man and for him to betray what he has been though by unmasking is not only out of character but disgraceful as well.

[Kevin]

no, him unmasking is just being IN character. Peter over the years has made some dumb choices, but always thought he was doing right with them. and how exactly is it disgraceful?

[Maximum Carnage]

How long will Aunt May and Mary Jane stay locked in the tower, do you think? Hiding from the entire list of Spidey's villains..

[savemarvel]

no, him unmasking is just being IN character. Peter over the years has made some dumb choices, but always thought he was doing right with them. and how exactly is it disgraceful?

Because he has grown up over the years and has learned from his mistakes. With all the run In's he have had with is enemies to the way the press had demonise him, Peter of all people would have known better than to unmask, despite the presser he was receiving from Stark or the government. The Peter we all know would have never put his family or his friends in jeopardy over what was going on. The Peter Parker who has unmasked in Civil War is not the Peter Parker we know and that in itself is a disgrace.:spidey:

[Kevin]

if this sounds snippy, savemarvel, i'm sorry, but really, when you say "we know" you should say "you know" because "you" are not everyone. the reason peter unmasked was FOR his family. i'm sorry, but if i had powers, lived in a tower with people i work with, who just happen to be avengers, and had the government agencie by my side, i would think my family would be pretty safe. that said, we KNOW he should have known better, but the example i stated i'm pretty sure what he was thinking. and also, if he DIDN'T unmask, he would be putting Mary Jane and may in Jeopardy with the government. like i said, peter did what he thought, and i'll say it again, THOUGHT, was right for his family, and by the way, even grown ups STILL make mistakes.

[Won '08]

if this sounds snippy, savemarvel, i'm sorry, but really, when you say "we know" you should say "you know" because "you" are not everyone. the reason peter unmasked was FOR his family. i'm sorry, but if i had powers, lived in a tower with people i work with, who just happen to be avengers, and had the government agencie by my side, i would think my family would be pretty safe. that said, we KNOW he should have known better, but the example i stated i'm pretty sure what he was thinking. and also, if he DIDN'T unmask, he would be putting Mary Jane and may in Jeopardy with the government. like i said, peter did what he thought, and i'll say it again, THOUGHT, was right for his family, and by the way, even grown ups STILL make mistakes.:up:

[savemarvel]

"if this sounds snippy, savemarvel, i'm sorry, but really, when you say "we know" you should say "you know" because "you" are not everyone."

I speak for a lot of long time readers and they do share my views. I would dare to say a good majority. If you want to dispute that then be my guest.

"the reason peter unmasked was FOR his family."

I read that issue, ASM# 532, one of the most incoherent and illconcieved issues in Straczynski's run as writer of the series.

"i'm sorry, but if i had powers, lived in a tower with people i work with, who just happen to be avengers, and had the government agencie by my side, i would think my family would be pretty safe. that said, we KNOW he should have known better, but the example i stated i'm pretty sure what he was thinking. and also, if he DIDN'T unmask, he would be putting Mary Jane and may in Jeopardy with the government. like i said, peter did what he thought, and i'll say it again, THOUGHT, was right for his family, and by the way, even grown ups STILL make mistakes."

The spider-Man we know would have never been a stooge for Stark or the Avengers and he would have kept his family away from what he was doing. As for his mistakes, he has learned before about what could happen when the wrong person finds out his secret identity, and with him just unmaking to the public makes absolutely no sense what so ever and it goes against his total character as a man, as a hero and as a human being.

Its bad writing, no matter how you try spin it. It was done for shock effect, not for substance and it was badly put together.:spidey:

[Doc Destruction]

Won...dude. Stop being an elitist ********.

[spider greg]

Good... Good.... Your hate has made you powerful.

LOL! I love it.:up:

On another note, I have the feeling, somewhere out there, Gregatron' s getting a big kick outta this thread.

[NateGray]

if this sounds snippy, savemarvel, i'm sorry, but really, when you say "we know" you should say "you know" because "you" are not everyone. the reason peter unmasked was FOR his family. i'm sorry, but if i had powers, lived in a tower with people i work with, who just happen to be avengers, and had the government agencie by my side, i would think my family would be pretty safe. that said, we KNOW he should have known better, but the example i stated i'm pretty sure what he was thinking. and also, if he DIDN'T unmask, he would be putting Mary Jane and may in Jeopardy with the government. like i said, peter did what he thought, and i'll say it again, THOUGHT, was right for his family, and by the way, even grown ups STILL make mistakes.
Ummm huh? He did not have to unmask in front of the world if you have been reading the spidey titles shield basicly raped his identity and even had a telepath read his mind after taking off his mask.And umm nope only retards make the same type of mistake that last time something like this happened a close personal love one was killed.Yeh those are those life lessons you do not re-learn you learn them once and it sticks with you for the rest of your life. And last I checked Peter was a genius???? not exactly the thing a genius would do so yeh umm its out of character.As for that safe tower you mean the won MJ was injured in and the one May had tea with a SV in yeh real safe in there alright....I can understand if people like the stories for the same reason I like B rate TVThe difference is I am not defending B rate TV (I know its B rate TV and watch it to laugh at it most of the time) the unmasking supporters are defending this B rate idea of unmasking though trying to sell it as good and well its just not....

[shinlyle]

Dude....let it go. The Spider-Man Comics are now crap. Sensational is the only title that hasn't relied on cheap-ass shock tactics to sell it's books, and now even it is being encompassed in this unmasking crap.

The unmasking would work fine if it were kept in the context of Civil War (assuming and praying that it is undone before CW ends), but including it in the regular books is just horrible. I mean, ASM and FNSM are crap now anyways (except for 'Ringo's art).

One of them features Peter Parker, the Invincible Iron Man's Sidekick, and the other is currently touting a storyline that features the Hobgoblin from the year 2011 coming back to take revenge on Spider-Man by bringing his Uncle Ben back from the dead (tell me that doesn't sound dumber than hell).

If you told me 5 years ago that I would drop ASM and ignore a Spider-book written by Peter David, I'd tell you that you were full of s***. Now....things are just too far gone.

I haven't read a solid Spidey story in so long. I think "Feral" was close, but that's about it.

Thank God we still ahve Ultimate...despite its mediocrity. Kidding. USM is pretty good.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

*Ahem* Spidey/Torch.

[shinlyle]

*Ahem* Spidey/Torch.


I only read the first issue of that one. I'm picking up the trade at Heroes Con this weekend.

Besides, I meant "ongoing Spidey title", otherwise I would have included Spidey/Human Torch and Spider-Girl.

[WOLVERINE25TH]

Well then say ongoing Spidey title, bunky. Specifics make the world go 'round.

(Oh, and SG's not dead yet...ya can count her until LPS #5 comes out.)

[Dragon]

if he DIDN'T unmask, he would be putting Mary Jane and may in Jeopardy with the government.

Any government that would put May and MJ in jeopardy because of Peter's actions is one he should be fighting against.

And your point about Peter making mistakes is a crock. Peter was always written as being an intelligent, deductive character. Yes, of course he makes mistakes. But he isn't out and out dumb, as he's been shown to be for much of JMS/Quesada's reign. And over the many years of his experience as a superhero, he should be getting smarter, not dumber, as is the case.

[Doc Destruction]

Boy, you got that right, Dragon. He's been acting like a first class moron. The ONLY exception is the Hydra arc. And that's the ONLY exception.

[Symbiotica]

* * *

[shinlyle]

Boy, you got that right, Dragon. He's been acting like a first class moron. The ONLY exception is the Hydra arc. And that's the ONLY exception.


It started with the removal of the mechanical webshooters, I think. As soon as that little reminder of Peter's ingenuity disappeared, he started gettign ever the more stupid. It's ridiculous. Spider-Man has impressed reed Richards and Tony Stark with his scientific knowlegde in the past, and lately, he seems to simply make a horse's ass out of himself every time he steps into battle (ESPECIALLY in New Avengers).

[Spiderluke]

It started with the removal of the mechanical webshooters, I think. As soon as that little reminder of Peter's ingenuity disappeared, he started gettign ever the more stupid. It's ridiculous. Spider-Man has impressed reed Richards and Tony Stark with his scientific knowlegde in the past, and lately, he seems to simply make a horse's ass out of himself every time he steps into battle (ESPECIALLY in New Avengers).ESPECIALLY in New Avengers. My thing is now, he is pretty much worthless in combat next to guys like Iron Man and the Sentry.

[MyPokerShirt]

i dont see how they've gotten worse but im new here, gregatron -- have u not complained since the other? cos i understand u thinkin the other is ****in stuff up, but rest assured that the unmasking is temporary. its not all doom and gloom.

[Kevin]

look, what it comes down to is opinions. my opinion is that it makes sense to ME why he unmasked and that it's a good idea... story wise. in MY eyes, he HAS learned from most of his past mistakes. do i think he should have unmasked? not really because we ALL know what bad could come from this, but that doesn't mean i'm not excited about what's to come. i don't get all huffy and puffy because it doesn't make sense to. i accept it and see where it goes. if i like it, i like it, if i don't then i don't. lately, spider-man as a character bores me. i've read most of his career and it's time for something new. if you don't like what's he's going through, fine 'cause i also hate some current things, but there will ALWAYS be someone who DOES like what another person hates. don't belittle people because they think differently from you. what type of person does that make you look like? we are ALL fans, but we all cant get what we WANT. oh, and by the way, yes he's a Genius, but he's not PERFECT. some people say Bill Cliton is a Genius, but that didn't stop him from cheating on his wife and getting caught.

[MyPokerShirt]

who says bill clinton is a genius???? jeeeez, u americans. u do at least know george dubya is a **** ja?

[shinlyle]

ESPECIALLY in New Avengers. My thing is now, he is pretty much worthless in combat next to guys like Iron Man and the Sentry.

I know.....

Watching him fumble around like an amateur in New Avengers while LOSERS like Luke Cage and Spider-Woman( I like her too, okay, but she's still a second stringer) accel against freakin' ninjas and even the Wrecker. Spidey, on the other hand, gets throw away, unmasked, his arm broken, mind-raped by a no-name SHIELD agent, and unmasked again. What the hell?! Wouldn't his Spider-Sense tell him to....I don't know....move faster?!?!

Not ot mention how Vision got bushwacked, I don't know. Isn't he capable of becoming intangible?!

Argh...freakin' morons....

[Gregatron]

"There is a great irony, I suppose, in the fact that the ever more 'sophisticated' audience for superhero comics has lost its connection to the very things that made the books such fun in the first place. 'Fun', in fact, is deemed unwelcome, as everything must be 'deconstructionist' and 'grim and gritty'. Willing suspension of disbelief is something surrendered grudgingly, not something seen as a starting point. So we get a cascade of books that are wrapped in an illusion of sophistication -- sophistication for the unsophisticated!"

- John Byrne

[Dmain_Event]

I know.....

Watching him fumble around like an amateur in New Avengers while LOSERS like Luke Cage and Spider-Woman( I like her too, okay, but she's still a second stringer) accel against freakin' ninjas and even the Wrecker. Spidey, on the other hand, gets throw away, unmasked, his arm broken, mind-raped by a no-name SHIELD agent, and unmasked again. What the hell?! Wouldn't his Spider-Sense tell him to....I don't know....move faster?!?!

Not ot mention how Vision got bushwacked, I don't know. Isn't he capable of becoming intangible?!

Argh...freakin' morons....


The state of the spiderman comics kindoff reminds me of the last episodes of spiderman the cartoon. Bad writing, putting him in situations that he could normally handle but making him weaker to make a point, plus crappy animations from episode in the first season.
Spidey needs some new creative teams and fast.

[SpideyInATree]

If you knew your history( and you don't) you would have notice that a great majority of the fans hated Jason Todd with a passion and the whole stunt was done by Dc in order to let the fans decide his fate. Dc at least respected their fan base enough to let them have their say about what will happen to the character( a close vote by the way) unlike Marvel who took a icon and rape him with out any regard on how fans would take it. Not only that but they went against what the character stood for and what he been though just to try to sell this. It not only spits in the face of his history but it went against what he stood for as well.

Now you tell me which is worse?

The great majority of the fans hated the character? Maybe. I was like 8 years old during that time. But the writers hated him too. And they rigged the voting, which it was very close. That's not the point of this...

How did they go against what the character stands for? The character stands for the everyday man who gets superpowers and holds the responbility of having his powers. It was either keep the mask on, be a rogue like Captain America and be hunted down like a DOG, along with his wife and poor old AUNT. And not to mention the heroes who know his identity and would snitch on him in an instant anyway. And once they caught Spidey do you think they'd keep his mask on his head?

Or register. And it turns out Tony Stark, someone Peter has come to greatly appreciate and respect, asks for him to be by his side. He needs to take the mask off to the public to do that. So, he did it so that he could be involved with everything. So, Pete should just sit back in the Avengers Tower with MJ and Aunt May eating donuts while all the other heroes do all the work...simply because he doesn't want to reveal his identity? THAT would be out of character, my friend.

As I've said in other threads. I understand people are angry, especially with the past stories that have happened. But people keep saying that him unmasking is out of character and spits on his history...and it DOESN'T. It's everything you'd expect Peter Parker to do, especially when his Aunt May gives him the seal of approval.

Hey, you don't like it. I like it. We're going to differ in opinion. But this is not Peter acting out of character. One thing I've enjoyed about JMS is that he's written a good Peter Parker and kept him true to who he is.

[savemarvel]

"The great majority of the fans hated the character? Maybe. I was like 8 years old during that time. But the writers hated him too. And they rigged the voting, which it was very close. That's not the point of this..."

That's lie and you know it. The writers did not rigged anything, it was the fans who voted and they got what they wanted. Think very hard before you try to lie though your teeth because I'm not one of your wet behind the ears comic fans. Unlike you , i know what the hell I'm talking about.:spidey:

"How did they go against what the character stands for? The character stands for the everyday man who gets superpowers and holds the responbility of having his powers. It was either keep the mask on, be a rogue like Captain America and be hunted down like a DOG, along with his wife and poor old AUNT. And not to mention the heroes who know his identity and would snitch on him in an instant anyway. And once they caught Spidey do you think they'd keep his mask on his head?"

The Spider-Man we all know would never let fear stop him from doing the right thing and he would have never caved to pressure from anybody to revel his identity, regardless of what might happen to him. He was smart enough to know the real ramifications of reveling his identity to the public and the responsibility to his family and friends to keep them safe. He would have found a way to hide Mary Jane and his aunt and he would have asked Captain America or anyone who knows him for help.:supes:

"Or register. And it turns out Tony Stark, someone Peter has come to greatly appreciate and respect, asks for him to be by his side. He needs to take the mask off to the public to do that. So, he did it so that he could be involved with everything. So, Pete should just sit back in the Avengers Tower with MJ and Aunt May eating donuts while all the other heroes do all the work...simply because he doesn't want to reveal his identity? THAT would be out of character, my friend."

The real Spider-man would have never have chosen Stark over his family and his responsibility. He would have saw right though Stark and would have join the resistance. What Spider-Man did in Civil war was totally out of character and it goes against everything he stood for over the years.:venom:



"As I've said in other threads. I understand people are angry, especially with the past stories that have happened. But people keep saying that him unmasking is out of character and spits on his history...and it DOESN'T. It's everything you'd expect Peter Parker to do, especially when his Aunt May gives him the seal of approval."

It does spit on his history because the real spider-man would have never put his his family in the kind of danger he did or lose his sense of right or wrong. As for his Aunt's seal of approval, even that was totally uncharacteristic for Spider-Man and his family because Aunt May would have been wise enough to never put Peter in a predicament that would not only risk his life but hers as well plus she of all people would have saw right through Stark and warn Peter not to trust him.:xmen:


"Hey, you don't like it. I like it. We're going to differ in opinion. But this is not Peter acting out of character. One thing I've enjoyed about JMS is that he's written a good Peter Parker and kept him true to who he is."

JMS sold himself and the character of Peter Parker out when he wrote the sins past storyline and its been down hill ever since for Spider-Man.:bomb:

[SpideyInATree]

That's lie and you know it. The writers did not rigged anything, it was the fans who voted and they got what they wanted. Think very hard before you try to lie though your teeth because I'm not one of your wet behind the ears comic fans. Unlike you , i know what the hell I'm talking about.:spidey:

The Spider-Man we all know would never let fear stop him from doing the right thing and he would have never caved to pressure from anybody to revel his identity, regardless of what might happen to him. He was smart enough to know the real ramifications of reveling his identity to the public and the responsibility to his family and friends to keep them safe. He would have found a way to hide Mary Jane and his aunt and he would have asked Captain America or anyone who knows him for help.:supes:

The real Spider-man would have never have chosen Stark over his family and his responsibility. He would have saw right though Stark and would have join the resistance. What Spider-Man did in Civil war was totally out of character and it goes against everything he stood for over the years.:venom:

It does spit on his history because the real spider-man would have never put his his family in the kind of danger he did or lose his sense of right or wrong. As for his Aunt's seal of approval, even that was totally uncharacteristic for Spider-Man and his family because Aunt May would have been wise enough to never put Peter in a predicament that would not only risk his life but hers as well plus she of all people would have saw right through Stark and warn Peter not to trust him.:xmen:

JMS sold himself and the character of Peter Parker out when he wrote the sins past storyline and its been down hill ever since for Spider-Man.:bomb:

It's NOT a lie. Denny O'Neil said in an interview that some of the Batman writers, who remained nameless, called in the hotline many, many times to have the character killed because they hated writing for him. Doesn't sound like a fair shake to the fans. But, of course, you know what you're TALKING about, right? So, I'm automatically wrong. :)

Spider-Man didn't choose Stark over anybody. A plethora of innocent people DIED in Stamford because some heroes were acting too brash. Remember the early years of Spidey? The teenage superhero who didn't always do things perfectly? You don't think that he might not see a parallel there? Of young, inexperienced superheroes running around without knowing what they're really up against? Spider-Man never caused that many innocent people to die, but he could have. You don't think that was crossing Peter Parker's mind?

That maybe registering may be the right thing to do now. The public is going to dislike superheroes and Iron Man wants to get the public back on their side.

Yeah, lets have Peter ask Captain America for help. Sure, Pete can be hunted down like a dog now. Boy, his Aunt May and Mary Jane would be REALLY safe now! Sure Pete could hide them. But don't you think Iron Man would FIND them? You don't think Iron Man or another hero on the registration side wouldn't give up his secret ID? Or SHIELD capturing him? Yeah, that would REALLY make his loved ones real safe too. Having MJ watching him get hunted down by people who are ON HIS SIDE! I'm sure that would be really good for her to get caught in the middle of that, along with a frail old Aunt May.

He is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. So, he chose to do what he felt was the right decision to make. To register. To be at Tony's side and help make the registration work and to continue BEING a hero.

On either side of the coin Spider-Man's family was in danger no matter what. Either being hunted by the government and the heroes supporting the registration. Or in danger of having past villains peak up their heads for a little bit of revenge, plus the lovely protection of SHIELD and the United States Government...which is a little better than what Captain America can do for Peter right now.

Aunt May would have seen through Tony Stark? But meanwhile this is the old woman who couldn't even see any type of SIGNS that her teenage nephew was freakin' Spider-Man! No offense to Stan Lee and those classic stories, but Aunt May was written very one dimensionally and how she couldn't have at LEAST figured out he was Spider-Man is beyond me. And you expect her to suddenly be like, "Oh Peter, Tony Stark is manipulating you to reveal your identity!"

We're just going to differ in the opinion. You're with that crowd of people angry, hell...still mad about a story that happened two years ago.

But, Peter Parker is doing what he believes to be the right thing. No matter what choice he made his family was going to be in danger no matter what.

[Morg]

closed while I hand down probations

[Morg]

Ok peeps, debate nicely or I'll close this again

[savemarvel]

"It's NOT a lie. Denny O'Neil said in an interview that some of the Batman writers, who remained nameless, called in the hotline many, many times to have the character killed because they hated writing for him. Doesn't sound like a fair shake to the fans. But, of course, you know what you're TALKING about, right? So, I'm automatically wrong "

You are wrong, I have the interview right in front of me when he was doing promotion for the trade paperback for " A Death in the Family" and He said that it was the readers who killed Robin, not the writers. If you are going to make something up to try to prove an argument, try to bring up something that can not be proven wrong. IF you want to dispute that, pick up the trade paperback and the interview is right there for all to see.

"Spider-Man didn't choose Stark over anybody. A plethora of innocent people DIED in Stamford because some heroes were acting too brash. Remember the early years of Spidey? The teenage superhero who didn't always do things perfectly? You don't think that he might not see a parallel there? Of young, inexperienced superheroes running around without knowing what they're really up against? Spider-Man never caused that many innocent people to die, but he could have. You don't think that was crossing Peter Parker's mind?"

But we are not talking about Spider man as a kid, we are talking about a grown man who has lived a full life being a hero. He has the experience and the wisdom to know that what Stark and the government wanted was wrong. :spidey:

"That maybe registering may be the right thing to do now. The public is going to dislike superheroes and Iron Man wants to get the public back on their side."

Peter know more than any one that no matter what you do, you can't please the public and the real Spider Man would have not cared what they wanted.:spidey:

"Yeah, lets have Peter ask Captain America for help. Sure, Pete can be hunted down like a dog now. Boy, his Aunt May and Mary Jane would be REALLY safe now! Sure Pete could hide them. But don't you think Iron Man would FIND them? You don't think Iron Man or another hero on the registration side wouldn't give up his secret ID? Or SHIELD capturing him? Yeah, that would REALLY make his loved ones real safe too. Having MJ watching him get hunted down by people who are ON HIS SIDE! I'm sure that would be really good for her to get caught in the middle of that, along with a frail old Aunt May."

The real Spider-man would have found a way to protect them and Cap would have helped him. :spidey:

"He is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. So, he chose to do what he felt was the right decision to make. To register. To be at Tony's side and help make the registration work and to continue BEING a hero. "

The real Spider-Man would have known that you don't have to register to be a real hero and he would have stood his ground than be a stooge.:spidey:

"On either side of the coin Spider-Man's family was in danger no matter what. Either being hunted by the government and the heroes supporting the registration. Or in danger of having past villains peak up their heads for a little bit of revenge, plus the lovely protection of SHIELD and the United States Government...which is a little better than what Captain America can do for Peter right now. "

The real Spider- Man would have not cared about the odds and stood by what he believed in. Plus Cap's resources is vast and vast enough to help his Pete and his family to hide.:spidey:

"Aunt May would have seen through Tony Stark? But meanwhile this is the old woman who couldn't even see any type of SIGNS that her teenage nephew was freakin' Spider-Man! No offense to Stan Lee and those classic stories, but Aunt May was written very one dimensionally and how she couldn't have at LEAST figured out he was Spider-Man is beyond me. And you expect her to suddenly be like, "Oh Peter, Tony Stark is manipulating you to reveal your identity!"

You really don't know what the hell you are talking about do you? There is a big difference between someone hiding something from someone and someone being able to see though some one else's agenda and despite the fact that she could not tell that Peter was Spider-man, she was old enough to have the wisdom to see though the propaganda as thick as Stark's.:spidey:

"We're just going to differ in the opinion. You're with that crowd of people angry, hell...still mad about a story that happened two years ago."

And with good reason. :spidey:

"But, Peter Parker is doing what he believes to be the right thing. No matter what choice he made his family was going to be in danger no matter what."

The real Peter PArker would have been wise enogh to not fall for the stuff the writers are putting him though now.

[hulkamania85]

I was reading Volume 2 of JMS' run last night and wondered "what the hell happened?" JMS had a good run going up to that issue with the superhero tailor (and it was a one part storyline, how often do we have that anymore?). After that totem arc everything has progressively gone downhill, which really sucks because JMS will be remembered more for what he did wrong than his good early Spider-Man stories.

[Marc]

I love the Other storyline but it was poorly executed. Very poorly written, beyond that sins past can be retconned. everything else just needs a good ol re-write.

You basically just said - "I love crap." :eek:

And I dropped Spidey on #500 and have been vindicated more and more every month as far as I'm concerned. I was certainly condeming Spidey's future to a JMS grave at that time, had been since the whole totem thing turned up. Was assured multiple times by people that oh its just a question not a statement and other mediated BS, that things are going somewhere and Peter will reject this idea etc..

[Jeffers]

Nevermind that these same "saviors" who will ostensibly dig Spider-Man out of this never-ending hole are the very same people who jammed him even further down into it than he already was, right?


The thing is, this could get even worse if it follows the same pattern as the Clone Saga. Upper management says, "Great, this gimmick sells comics! String it out a little longer!" And even if Joe Q. and Co. have a plan to fix things (which I doubt) they won't get to use it, and each new "shock" will be harder to undo than the last.

And while the Clone Saga at least was an intriguing idea at the outset, everything "Spider-Man will never be the same again!" event JMS has been shoveling at us has been badly conceived from the start.

I dropped the 616 Spider-Man books with "Sins Past." Ultimate is getting boring. If Marvel doesn't relaunch Spider-Girl, I may not be reading a Spider-Man comic for the first time in 20-some years.

But then I care about the character, and Joey Q has implied many times that he doesn't want the business of my sort of people anymore.