What's keeping Iron Man to become Marvel's Batman?

[chiefchirpa]

Tony Starks obviously has more than Bruce Wayne. Corporation that felt more real than Wayne Enterprise and without the need of Lucius Fox and dead father's will. A real Science Engineering education as opposed to wasting the entire youth life traveling to exotic places just to beat people. An ever-improving exosuit that can beat all BatCopter, BatWing, BatMobile, BatTank, and so on combined.

So what's keeping him to become one of the elites in Marvel Universe?

[Ironfan72]

Iron Man is considered one of the elites, however, what we run into with Marvel, is Spider Man, Wolverine and the Fantastic Four seem to run the show in Marvel. Unlike DC where they have "the big three", Batman,Wonder Women and Superman, Marvel doesn't limit itself to three major characters, Marvel has many more interesting and realistic heros and villians.
Iron Man gets his due, he is more popular now than just about anytime in his 40 year history, how popular he may be after Civil War isn't clear, he appears to be on the wrong side in that event, and Iron Man is getting flake for it by non-Iron Man fans and Iron Man fans alike, (blame Marvel management). If you read New Avengers, Bendis, does justice to Iron Man, he's the guideing force of the team and is writin the way Iron Man should be.
So, will Iron Man ever be the Batman of Marvel, he's closer than ever and only time and the fans will tell.

[3dman27]

i hope he doesn't end up being considered a SUPERVILLIAN after civil war

[CConn]

Y'know, I really don't know. I think one of the most obvious things is simply that Batman's been around longer, has had more exposure in really all forms of media, and that's ingrained him into the public consciousness more right there.

I do think there probably are other reasons as well; maybe Batman's noir/gothic style is a bit more popular and well accepted than Iron Man's more mundane surroundings.

I think maybe personality-wise Batman is a bit more of a badass than Tony is, and that is a pretty importan thing with comics' main audience. Currently, at least.

Like I said, I'm not totally sure, but I think those are at least a few things that might have propelled Batman higher than Iron Man.

And a few corrections...

Batman did more than just "wasting the entire youth life traveling to exotic places just to beat people". He has doctorate-level knowledge not only in science, but also in chemistry, criminalogy, and possibly a few more academic areas. Then of course physically Batman is in Olympian-level condition, and without question is the best martial artist in the DCU.

Also, "Marvel has many more interesting and realistic heros and villians." is little more than conjecture. And incorrect conjecture at that, IMO. DC hardly limits itself any more than Marvels in terms of character exposure in comics. Maybe they haven't been churning out movies about lesser known characters like Marvel has in the past few years, but it appears that'll be changing relatively soon.

[chiefchirpa]

"Doctorate level knowledge" is what the writers do to make a BatGod. Tony Stark is dedicated to his mechanical/electrical engineering invention by creating high-tech exosuits with his own hands. In the Batman lore or at least in Batman Begins, there's never a sure thing that Bruce Wayne creates Batman vehicles and gadgets. I'm sorry, but Iron Man is a tad more realistic than Batman.

[CConn]

"Doctorate level knowledge" is what the writers do to make a BatGod.No, it's not. Batman's background in science and criminlogy go back to his origins in 1939, and has been present throughout his history. Hell, even in the Adam West show, Batman was shown to be a scientist. I believe the "BatGod" problem(?) didn't arise until Grant Morrison started overpowering Batman in his JLA comics of the '90s.
Tony Stark is dedicated to his mechanical/electrical engineering invention by creating high-tech exosuits with his own hands. In the Batman lore or at least in Batman Begins, there's never a sure thing that Bruce Wayne creates Batman vehicles and gadgets.On this you're right. Batman generally leaves the creation of his relative arsenal to others. But then a scientist is different than a mechanical engineer, isn't it?

Batman's forte is investigation. Mechanical engineering is hardly an important part of investigation (hell, it's not a part at all). I was merely bringing to your attention that Batman is the World's Greatest Detective. And does indeed do more than just kick ass. A fact you would know if you based your analysis more on the actual comics instead of Batman Begins.
I'm sorry, but Iron Man is a tad more realistic than Batman.I never made any mention of realism. That's another matter entirely. Hell, I could argue that realism doesn't even have anything to do with the quality of a character.

[Firehawk]

I thought Iron-man was Marvels version of Batman marvel just elimanated all the crazy gadgets and utility belts and put it all in one suit?

[Leto Atrides]

Batman is "cooler" to most comic fans, in the dark badass way that is popular nowadays.

1. Bats is a loner. Yes he's in the Justice League fairly often, but he doesn't like it and doesn't stay. Tony devotes great deals of his money, and his home to the Avengers. He works with others often, and even built technology and suits for the government (though he's regretted it).

2. Batman is dedicated. To the point of being mentally disturbed. He goes out every night, all night. Tony's motivations have changed through the years, from revenge, to justice, to just protecting his own interests and companies, only large-scale threats.

3. Batman is more relatable to. He's not in a robot that gives him class 100 strength. He does things with his own body.

4. Batman fakes being a rich playboy, a kind of person many don't like. Tony actually is one.

It sounds like I'm critisizing Iron Man; I'm not, he's one of my favorite characters. But because of the things I said, most people are going to prefer Bats.

Also, Iron Man inhereited his money and company too. And Batman has traditional scientific training in addition to various other training during his travels. He wasn't just learning combat. Base your knowledge on something other than Begins. It wasn't exactly accurate on that point.

[CConn]

Well put, Leto.
I thought Iron-man was Marvels version of Batman marvel just elimanated all the crazy gadgets and utility belts and put it all in one suit?Iron Man, Moon Knight, Punisher, and even Spider-Man all have some elements of Batman in them. Although it's Moon Knight who's generally considered "Marvel's Batman".

[chiefchirpa]

Batman is "cooler" to most comic fans, in the dark badass way that is popular nowadays.

1. Bats is a loner. Yes he's in the Justice League fairly often, but he doesn't like it and doesn't stay. Tony devotes great deals of his money, and his home to the Avengers. He works with others often, and even built technology and suits for the government (though he's regretted it).


Real life teaches that cooperation, as opposed to lonewolf, can tackle bigger problems. Marvel creates a more believable universe where all characters have fallible personalities. While DC create a triumvirate of supergods whose one of the members is only a mere human.


2. Batman is dedicated. To the point of being mentally disturbed. He goes out every night, all night. Tony's motivations have changed through the years, from revenge, to justice, to just protecting his own interests and companies, only large-scale threats.


Yes, Batman is dedicated in fighting criminals, even small criminals. Tony is fighting against bigger fish. While he's not as dedicated as Batman in fighting evil, realistically he should have more time in perfecting his inventions and managing his business. In DC Universe, Bruce can do everything in his 24 hours. Marvel's Iron Man has a more realistic pacing where the characters lives are not just about fighting villains day by day without exhaustion.


3. Batman is more relatable to. He's not in a robot that gives him class 100 strength. He does things with his own body.


To fight against a class 100 strength opponent, Tony Stark has to use the exosuit. Unless you're fighting a town crook like the Penguins and Joker. It's not realistic for Batman to fight, say Superman, wearing his usual costume and expect to take Supe's fists squarely in the chin. Yet in the DC universe, this happens. In BatGod We Trust.


4. Batman fakes being a rich playboy, a kind of person many don't like. Tony actually is one.


It's just how the writers portray Tony Stark to be. I don't drink and I don't like suggestions that the movie should show Stark to be an Alcoholic. If Stark is a 20 something, clean shaven young inventor I think the Iron Man series would take off more.

Personality-wise, Steve Rogers is more likeable than the dour, distrustful Bruce Wayne or womanizing, alcoholic Tony Stark. But does that make Captain America a better Superhero?


It sounds like I'm critisizing Iron Man; I'm not, he's one of my favorite characters. But because of the things I said, most people are going to prefer Bats.


I prefer Bats too. He's more succesful as a superhero than Iron Man because the whole DC writers support him as the 2nd or if the premiere Superhero. Iron Man is written as a second class superhero. Even though he has the intelligence to invent powerboots and Unibeam, yet Cap America still can beat him. Now the Civil War potrays him as a major evil. Oh my...


Also, Iron Man inhereited his money and company too. And Batman has traditional scientific training in addition to various other training during his travels. He wasn't just learning combat. Base your knowledge on something other than Begins. It wasn't exactly accurate on that point.

Stark made the business. Wayne inherited much of his wealth, and although allegedly he expanded the business, he didn't do by himself. Batman is still my #1 hero, but the way the writers portray him as human with superpowered luck and suprising chances tickles me on the wrong side.

[Leto Atrides]

Didn't want to quote the whole thing, but I can understand what you mean about why many aspects of Iron Man make sense. They're only going to make him a premeir player by being really popular though, and heroes don't become really become popular by making sense though. An easy-going team player who's rich and happy is not going not going to capture the masses the way a twisted soul searching for vengence will.

I'm just saying, Iron Man is less iconic, in the sense he is not extreme in views and attitude. He coexists well with other people and heroes, and can be easily used in a support role ("Hey, we just got a shipment of tech from Tony Stark!", etc.) so Marvel's not going to go to the trouble of making him a top-flight solo character.

And as an aside, I could've sworn his normal suit was just barely Class 100. Like his limit is 100 tons.

[warren_sparta27]

...can anyone really ever compare to The Batman...

[Firehawk]

...can anyone really ever compare to The Batman...

We all know Batman is a god!! with enough prep time he could become ruler of Earth 1 and 2 ! :)

[CConn]

Real life teaches that cooperation, as opposed to lonewolf, can tackle bigger problems. Marvel creates a more believable universe where all characters have fallible personalities. While DC create a triumvirate of supergods whose one of the members is only a mere human.

snipDo we really need all this much of a debate on quality? We're talking about popularity, and unforunately, popularity and quality don't always go hand in hand.

[kedrell]

I always liked Iron Man because he seemed to be a great synthesis of 2 of the most popular superheros, even if they are DC heros. He's like the best of Batman and Superman rolled into one. Almost as if they had had a love child.:eek:

[Toby_Temple]

Its all about popularity.Batman is alot more popular than Ironman. But I do accept that Ironman is more realistic compared to Batman. And the Ironman armor is several lightyears cooler than the Bat suit and all the Batman gadgets combined.

[not_a_victim]

"Doctorate level knowledge" is what the writers do to make a BatGod. Tony Stark is dedicated to his mechanical/electrical engineering invention by creating high-tech exosuits with his own hands. In the Batman lore or at least in Batman Begins, there's never a sure thing that Bruce Wayne creates Batman vehicles and gadgets. I'm sorry, but Iron Man is a tad more realistic than Batman.


Your post is fairly vague, and your grammar is awful, but do I read it correctly in that you say Bats did NOT create anything he used in BB? If that is what you are saying, you are incorrect. Wayne was shown assembling/modifying the suit, making the "batarangs", etc.

[3dman27]

Tony Starks obviously has more than Bruce Wayne. Corporation that felt more real than Wayne Enterprise and without the need of Lucius Fox and dead father's will. A real Science Engineering education as opposed to wasting the entire youth life traveling to exotic places just to beat people. An ever-improving exosuit that can beat all BatCopter, BatWing, BatMobile, BatTank, and so on combined.

So what's keeping him to become one of the elites in Marvel Universe?
at the moment the fact that writers are turning him into dr.doom jr.

[Jack & Daniel]

So what's keeping him to become one of the elites in Marvel Universe?


essentially, he doesn't have a black mantle :ninja:

[trustyside-kick]

Unlike DC where they have "the big three", Batman,Wonder Women and Superman, Marvel doesn't limit itself to three major characters, Marvel has many more interesting and realistic heros and villians.

Actually when I look at DC and Marvel I would say DC has more realistic heroes. Also, it seems pretty common to see DC characters without powers and yet still playing hero and doing great. Same goes for DC's villains.

I thought Iron-man was Marvels version of Batman marvel just elimanated all the crazy gadgets and utility belts and put it all in one suit?

If anything I always thought Daredevil was the closest thing to DC's Batman. But this is with other factors besides gadgets of course. I have never ever considered Iron Man to be similar at all to Batman except that they are both rich.

Oh and why is Iron Man not big like DC's Batman? Plain and simple. Ironman does not equal Spider-Man. I say this only because like DC's Batman, Marvel's Spider-Man was greatly advertised. All those old cartoon shows, newer cartoon shows, successful action figures, movies, games, etc. I'm not saying Iron Man is not a cool character...he just simply isn't popular because he hasn't really been advertised to all ages really; not as much as Marvel has done with Spider-Man.

[trustyside-kick]

Edit.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Let's face it people.....it's the ****ing mustache. People don't trust dudes with mustaches.

I think trying to toss realism into this mix, about one dude who dresses like Bat.....and another dude who dresses like a robot.......I think realism should probably go out the window here. I think we can try to talk realism.....I mean, it'd be kinda pointless anyways......when Iron Man's film gets done.

But, CConn made a lot of great points. Batman's main deal is his ability to solve crimes, wheter scientifically, deduction or through reasoning and detecting. His ability to build and invent is pretty much secondary, or maybe even lower down the chain when you consider his physical combat skills.

Tony's a real brain. I mean....really....really there and all. The comparisons between him and Batman are kinda superficial I think. They're both rich, they're both mortal.......and that's about it. Other than that, they're very different I think. Even in lifestyles, down to motivations....they're just different.

Moon Knight is Marvel's Batman, the way I see it. Well.....Batman on steriods and some form of weaponized hallusangen. That dude is ****ing nuts.

[chiefchirpa]

Iron Man and Batman has a connection that they're both rich and command a domineering company in respective universe. Stark Enterprise finance the Avengers, and Wayne Industries gets JLA's bills. They're both gadgets-heavy and the toys made them equal to superpeople.

Finally, they're both mere mortals with big brains. Moon Knight is no longer mortal with Khonshu holding him. The same with Daredevil, Wolverine, and to a lesser extent, Black Panther who takes natural drugs.

And I won't mention about the womanizer part.... ;)

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Actually, I dunno if Wayne Enterprises does fund the JLA. They've actually got a few members that are pretty rich, but I'm not so sure that he funds them anymore.

I think the connection to Moon Knight has more to do in how they carry themselves. Cape and all, as well as questionable methods of dishing out justice.....plus they're both dark and creepy.

I think Leto said it right.....Bruce acts like a rich playboy. Tony is the real deal.

But, as to why Iron Man isn't the "Batman" of Marvel......well, b/c the role of dark avenger is filled by a few others. People pay more attention to the dark and brooding side, b/c it's what they see first. Plus, I do think Iron Man will see his stock rise when his film opens. I'm sure people will fall for him then, and then...who knows, maybe we'll see him become a household name. But, Marvel's got a lot of popular names.....that's one of the reasons he's been held back I think.

[Majik1387]

I gotta say, I'm starting to appreciate Iron Man more now than I ever did.

[chiefchirpa]

But, as to why Iron Man isn't the "Batman" of Marvel......well, b/c the role of dark avenger is filled by a few others. People pay more attention to the dark and brooding side, b/c it's what they see first. Plus, I do think Iron Man will see his stock rise when his film opens. I'm sure people will fall for him then, and then...who knows, maybe we'll see him become a household name. But, Marvel's got a lot of popular names.....that's one of the reasons he's been held back I think.

Yeah I understand - Batman is the swiss army knife, while the Marvel characters are more specialized. For Batman alone, there is Iron Man, Daredevil, Moon Knight, Wolverine, Black Panther, etc. For Superman there is Gladiator, Thor, Sentry, etc.

At least DC never have the idea of making Batman a bad guy, even though he's darker and more angst driven than Iron Man...

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, actually DC has done questionable stuff with him......like him creating the Brother Eye....which kinda had a hand in a huge crisis. Thing is, Batman is probably the most popular DC hero....so fans will probably side with him no matter what.

But, again....I think we'll see Iron Man just become a powerhouse once his film opens. And, if it's a great film......I think his popularity will probably get at an all time high.

I actually haven't picked up Civil War yet....I'm holding out for the TPB's......but I was kinda amazed to see IGN voted Iron Man the best villian of 2006.

[izzyspider]

becuz batman is batman ironman will never reach that popularity or the respect batman has, he's a bigger icon and civil war has done everything it could to make iron man into the elite, his side one, he fought cap without his armor and match him blow for blow, create a verson of the spider sense, got the ok the send the hulk away but they accidently made him marvel lex luthor in the minds of many..lol

[3dman27]

good point izzyspider

[explode7]

Popularity doesn't only give batman the edge over Iron Man he's also waaaaaaaaaaaaay cooler than Iron Man would ever be. Iron Man probably wishes and dreams he he is close to as cool as batman is. Some of my friends consider Iron Man to be a pu**y in a suit hiding from criminals whereas Batman is the braver one. I find this to be true also.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, I've always wondered about Iron Man's motivation. I've started reading THE ULTIMATES, and I kinda dig his motivation in there. But, what is Tony's motivation for being Iron Man in the Marvel U.?

I think a huge part of what makes Batman...well....Batman, is how it begins for him.

[Anubis]

Well, I've always wondered about Iron Man's motivation. I've started reading THE ULTIMATES, and I kinda dig his motivation in there. But, what is Tony's motivation for being Iron Man in the Marvel U.?

I think a huge part of what makes Batman...well....Batman, is how it begins for him.


A little guilt over all the people he's killed over the years with the weapons he made, and a little arrogance, because he feels it's his duty as a super scientist or whatever.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Hmmmm.....the guilt sounds cool to me.

[Anubis]

Works for Spidey.

[bestever23]

If there was a Civil War In DC would Batman do the same thing? I doubt It he's the one that's not for the government

[Anubis]

No, he wouldn't. Superman might though.

[kedrell]

^I think you could bet on that.:cwink:

[bestever23]

damn boy scout lol nah I love sups but he would

[T'Chaka]

Well put, Leto.
Iron Man, Moon Knight, Punisher, and even Spider-Man all have some elements of Batman in them. Although it's Moon Knight who's generally considered "Marvel's Batman".

Ever since Marvel Knights came out, I started looking at BLACK PANTHER as being Marvel's equivalent to Batman. They both have somewhat similar backgrounds and operating styles.

[kedrell]

Ever since Marvel Knights came out, I started looking at BLACK PANTHER as being Marvel's equivalent to Batman. They both have somewhat similar backgrounds and operating styles.

For me I always looked at Daredevil as sort of Batman-like.

[N.Sef]

yeha I agree with the whole Daredevil being Marvel's Batman-like character, he's got several qualities that Bruce posses, this could be due to Frank Miller's reworking of the character much like he did with Batman, but hey.

If you want to compare Iron Man to a DC character, I think he's closest to someone like Green Arrow more then Batman.

[Sparta*]

Re: What's keeping Iron Man to become Marvel's Batman?

I'd have to say because Batman has been around longer and is a million times cooler then Iron Man

[Zombie_samurai]

Also Batman is driven by tragedy while Ironman really isn't all that driven. I mean if you could ask Ironman why he does it he'd probably say because it's the right thing to do while Batman would say it's because of what happened to his parents.

[RogueDK]

Re: What's keeping Iron Man to become Marvel's Batman?

I'd have to say because Batman has been around longer and is a million times cooler then Iron Man


:brucebat: > :im:

Agreed.

[kedrell]

Personally I think Batman's about the most boring superhero ever, but he is easier to translate to live action, due mainly to the sfx needed for Iron Man. This is the way it is with much of the DC and Marvel characters. The Marvel characters are more SFX reliant than the DC ones. Maybe that's why DC had a monopoly on live action adaptions for 20 years from Superman(1978) until Blade came out in 1998.

[RogueDK]

Personally I think Batman's about the most boring superhero ever



:wow:


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g245/RougeArtist/1129301049_7063.jpg

[kedrell]

^Hehehe, sorry but that's how I see it. I also don't get the appeal of Spider-Man, Superman, Fantastic Four, Daredevil or the X-Men. In my mind it's always been Hulk, Iron Man and the Avengers and that's pretty much it.

[kedrell]

^Of course I'll still see the movie this summer since I'm a superhero/comic book junkie. But IJ4, IM & TIH are more anticipated by me.

[RogueDK]

^Of course I'll still see the movie this summer since I'm a superhero/comic book junkie. But IJ4, IM & TIH are more anticipated by me.



Well....at least you're going to see TDK so that's fair enough I guess. How can you not like Daredevil though? :huh:

I'm looking forward to The Incredible Hulk as well. :word:

[kedrell]

Well for me to really be interested a superhero requires two things:

1) A lot of power(and generally the more powerful they are, the better);

and

2) An edgy-ness or gritty-ness to them(I don't care for boy-scout types)

Superman, Batman, Daredevil, Wolverine, FF, etc. only meet one of those requirements. Spidey, Captain America etc. don't meet either really. Iron Man & the Hulk meet them both well(Hulk more-so than Iron Man) so that's why they're my faves and by extension through them, the Avengers. I will say of Nolan's Batman that they've done about as good a job of making him interesting as Batman can be.

[RogueDK]

Well for me to really be interested a superhero requires two things:

1) A lot of power(and generally the more powerful they are, the better);

and

2) An edgy-ness or gritty-ness to them(I don't care for boy-scout types)

Superman, Batman, Daredevil, Wolverine, FF, etc. only meet one of those requirements. Spidey, Captain America etc. don't meet either really. Iron Man & the Hulk meet them both well(Hulk more-so than Iron Man) so that's why they're my faves and by extension through them, the Avengers. I will say of Nolan's Batman that they've done about as good a job of making him interesting as Batman can be.


Wouldn't Iron Man fall more along the lines of Batman with your terminology? It's the suit that makes I.M...without it, he's less than Batman. Not to mention the bad ticker he has...

Wayne could build his own battle armor (and has) if he wanted although that might cramp his style more on a regular basis.

Not trying to blast your opinion but...c'mon, man. Cap falls more under your two examples than Stark IMO. Well, at least Ultimate Cap.

[Banshee]

Drunk Post.

Edit *****es.

[RogueDK]

The arguments presented for Ironman against Batman are clearly unfounded, but I almost expect it since Marvel is the "cool" company to like these days.



I have to make sure that my Marvel fanboy son sees this... :woot:

He thinks that Marvel Comics are the Gospel.

[kedrell]

Wouldn't Iron Man fall more along the lines of Batman with your terminology? It's the suit that makes I.M...without it, he's less than Batman. Not to mention the bad ticker he has...

Wayne could build his own battle armor (and has) if he wanted although that might cramp his style more on a regular basis.

Not trying to blast your opinion but...c'mon, man. Cap falls more under your two examples than Stark IMO. Well, at least Ultimate Cap.


I agree about ultimate Cap in that I prefer him to 616 Cap even though he's still not that powerful. And yes, Iron Man's not much without the suit but with it he's mega powerful and to me that's a minor nit-pick. And yes Bats could pay for a suit of armor as well I guess, but he doesn't do it as that's not his thing as a superhero. I also don't see it working in a Nolan film.

[Odin's Lapdog]

I think it comes down to villains...

Iron man really doesn't have a great selection of villains, the mandirin is great but gets no where near as much exposure as venom, green goblin, magneto or doctor doom.

[RogueDK]

Yes, a lack of QUALITY villians could be a reason from keeping Iron Man on Batman's level.

Only Bats and Spider-Man have the most recognizable rogue galleries...and the coolest. :word:

[kedrell]

Actually, when it comes to rogue's galleries I find the Avengers and FF have the best. Dr. Doom, Ultron, Kang, Galactus.....those are winners. But to me a hero's villans don't determine whether the hero him/her-self is cool or not. It does however largely determine whether the particular story they're in is any good.

[RogueDK]

Actually, when it comes to rogue's galleries I find the Avengers and FF have the best. Dr. Doom, Ultron, Kang, Galactus.....those are winners. But to me a hero's villans don't determine whether the hero him/her-self is cool or not. It does however largely determine whether the particular story they're in is any good.


We went from singular to plural now, kedrell? Okay, then the JLA has the best villians of them all. :funny:


There has to be a compass set in order to measure the worth of a hero; gotta have ying with yang. Iron Man doesn't have the yang part, Batman does. :word: Tony Stark battling inebriation doesn't count.

I will agree with you that the story has to be interesting enough though.

[kedrell]

We went from singular to plural now, kedrell? Okay, then the JLA has the best villians of them all. :funny:

Only in regards to which villains are my favorites. I'm completely unfamiliar with JLA villains. I'm not much of a DC guy.


There has to be a compass set in order to measure the worth of a hero; gotta have ying with yang. Iron Man doesn't have the yang part, Batman does. :word: Tony Stark battling inebriation doesn't count.

I will agree with you that the story has to be interesting enough though.

To me I evaluate the hero on his/her own merits. The villain doesn't enter into it. You could just have Hero X taking on some bank robbers and that would be fine for me, at least in determining who's a cool hero. Now the villain IS important but mainly to the particular story into which he/she is inserted. Villains are transitory(they come and go) but the hero remains. That's all I was trying to say.

[RogueDK]

I'm not much of a DC guy.

Yeah there's alot of that going around these days... :csad:

[Leto Atrides]

Yeah there's alot of that going around these days... :csad:

It seems like it's always been that way on this board (which kind of makes sense there are more Marvel movies). Most people are Marvel fans but make an exception for Batman/Superman/maybe the Justice League.

[Odin's Lapdog]

Actually, when it comes to rogue's galleries I find the Avengers and FF have the best. Dr. Doom, Ultron, Kang, Galactus.....those are winners. But to me a hero's villans don't determine whether the hero him/her-self is cool or not. It does however largely determine whether the particular story they're in is any good.a hero is only as good as their rogues.

you can have the greatest hero ever, give them crap rogues and they aren't worth much.

that's the reason why the hulk spends more time fighting heroes than he does villains, because he only has like three villains worth mentioning.

ironman only has one.

look at that lame cartoon they put him in during the 90s cartoons, it was aweful and the villain line up was a joke.

[RogueDK]

a hero is only as good as their rogues.

you can have the greatest hero ever, give them crap rogues and they aren't worth much.

that's the reason why the hulk spends more time fighting heroes than he does villains, because he only has like three villains worth mentioning.

ironman only has one.

look at that lame cartoon they put him in during the 90s cartoons, it was aweful and the villain line up was a joke.



Exactly! Thank you. :word:

[kedrell]

a hero is only as good as their rogues.

you can have the greatest hero ever, give them crap rogues and they aren't worth much.

that's the reason why the hulk spends more time fighting heroes than he does villains, because he only has like three villains worth mentioning.

ironman only has one.

look at that lame cartoon they put him in during the 90s cartoons, it was aweful and the villain line up was a joke.

I tend to disagree, I think the particular story a hero is in is only as good as his rogues. But you could just have any hero go up against a bunch of generic bank robbers if you want to evaluate how cool a particular hero is on his/her own merits. And that's how I rate them.

[Odin's Lapdog]

name me a popular good hero with crap rogues...

[kedrell]

Superman

[RogueDK]

Superman



HERETIC!!!!!

:wow:

Seriously, Superman does not have crappy villians. Where'd you get that from?

[kedrell]

^I beg to differ. Toyman & Bizarro to name a few. I'm not all that impressed with Batman or Spider-Man's villains either. There are actually very, very few villains I find interesting at all throughout all of Marvel or DC. I find more movie villains to be interesting, like Hans Gruber from Die Hard. Maybe that's because in order for a villain to really be threatening and therefore cool, said villain needs to be allowed to be as bad as he/she can be. Comics being geared towards kids, tends to mute a villain's evil.

On a side note, it is interesting that a hero's villains generally are similar to him in many ways. Spider-Man's enemies are almost all animal based characters, Batman's are almost all as powerless as he is, Iron Man's are mostly tech based villains, etc.

[RogueDK]

^I beg to differ. Toyman & Bizarro to name a few. I'm not all that impressed with Batman or Spider-Man's villains either.


OMG! You're a piece of work, my friend... :cmad: :woot:

[kedrell]

Well, comic book villains in general don't impress me much. I'll take a Hans Gruber, Darth Vader(yes I know he was inspired by Dr. Doom), Predator, Dick Jones & Clarence Boddicker(RoboCop), Mr. Blonde(Reservoir Dogs), Hannibal Lecter, etc. way before them because they're allowed to be evil in a way that comic book villains aren't. Most of those are from rated R movies, and that's why.

[Anubis]

Heh, I take it you never read that story where Doctor Light raped Elongated Man's wife then.

[kedrell]

Nope, I don't even know who those two are. I also seriously doubt they showed much, unless it was in some adult comics(which is a whole other ballgame).

[RogueDK]

Heh, I take it you never read that story where Doctor Light raped Elongated Man's wife then.

That was pretty evil. What's just as bad is what the JLA did to Light afterward.

Comics are leaning towards more mature content for the past decade or so...

[Leto Atrides]

^I beg to differ. Toyman & Bizarro to name a few. I'm not all that impressed with Batman or Spider-Man's villains either. There are actually very, very few villains I find interesting at all throughout all of Marvel or DC. I find more movie villains to be interesting, like Hans Gruber from Die Hard. Maybe that's because in order for a villain to really be threatening and therefore cool, said villain needs to be allowed to be as bad as he/she can be. Comics being geared towards kids, tends to mute a villain's evil.

Batman's rogues would fit your criteria to a T I would think. Most of them regularly kill people without any regret, and most of them outright enjoy it. Joker kidnaps and kills babies and most of Ra's plans involve eugenics and mass genocide.

Also, I think the importance of villains depends on the hero and how powerful he is. You can do a story about Daredevil or someone fighting nondescript organized crime and robbers and have it be a good story. With Dr. Stange it's really contrived to have him fight someone that's not a powerful poersonality.

[Leto Atrides]

Nope, I don't even know who those two are. I also seriously doubt they showed much, unless it was in some adult comics(which is a whole other ballgame).

Do you want to see explicit rape in a comic? The important part to the story is that it happened.

[RogueDK]

I also seriously doubt they showed much, unless it was in some adult comics(which is a whole other ballgame).


Not to get off of subject here but did they show what Mr. Blonde(one of your examples of the consumate villian) did to that cop in Resevoir Dogs? No. But the suggestion was still there.

There are arty approaches to the evil that you seem to covet from entertainment. You don't have to see actual penetration to get your rocks off...

[Anubis]

Nope, I don't even know who those two are. I also seriously doubt they showed much, unless it was in some adult comics(which is a whole other ballgame).


I fail to see how that makes a difference. Not like they showed Anikan actually kill those younglings or whatever. :rolleyes: They showed enough, and it wasn't in an adult comic, It was in a DC comics special event, with Batman and Superman and all those other goodie two shoes we know and love.

When was the last time you read a superhero comic? The Villains have become some sick f**ks over the last 20 years or so. Toyman is a pedophile. Ultron eradicated an entire nation. Every man, woman, and child. A guy killed Green Lanterns girlfriend and stuffed her in a refrigerator. The Red Skull killed Captain America. All this in your run of the mill comics.

[samsnee]

I think it comes down to villains...

Iron man really doesn't have a great selection of villains, the mandirin is great but gets no where near as much exposure as venom, green goblin, magneto or doctor doom.

This is exactly why. Look at the most popular heroes, Batman and Spider-man. Both have at least 3 or 4 villains the general, non-comic reading crowd could name off the top of their heads. Only Superman is at the same level of popularity, and most people could probably only name 2 or 3 of his villains (Luthor, Bizarro, Mxylpltk).

I can only really name a few IM villians... Mandarin, Fin Fan Foom, Crimson Dynamo, but maybe only Mandarin has the same charisma or coolness of a Joker or Dr. Octopus.

[Odin's Lapdog]

^I beg to differ. Toyman & Bizarro to name a few. I'm not all that impressed with Batman or Spider-Man's villains either. There are actually very, very few villains I find interesting at all throughout all of Marvel or DC. I find more movie villains to be interesting, like Hans Gruber from Die Hard. Maybe that's because in order for a villain to really be threatening and therefore cool, said villain needs to be allowed to be as bad as he/she can be. Comics being geared towards kids, tends to mute a villain's evil.

On a side note, it is interesting that a hero's villains generally are similar to him in many ways. Spider-Man's enemies are almost all animal based characters, Batman's are almost all as powerless as he is, Iron Man's are mostly tech based villains, etc.
the entire jlu was geared towards the team fighting off nemeses of superman

brainiac, lex luthor and darkseid, one easily in the top three villains of all time.

most decent heroes have at least three badass villains. Ironman has the mandarin (who has been drastically downplayed) and other suited technological counterparts which probably take a second place for tony being an alcoholic.

[VaderRISE]

You know when Iron Man will be on Batman's level? When people start making hate threads about him in another heroes movie forum. :p

I myself never cared for Stark, and Civil War just made him a prick. I don't blame that on IM, I blame that on the writing. The movie however looks pretty sweet and may make me start reading some IM books.

[IRON_Lad]

Batman's just more interesting. I mean I tried to get into Ironman books a couple of years ago but it was just boring. But with Batman you can just pick up any book and it will be at least a little enjoyable. But maybe the movie will change that. Also Why are you tring to compare Batman to Ironman when they have nothing in common except for their money?