??Birthright being retconned out of continutity?? [Archive]

DavidTyler

06-27-2006, 01:35 PM

retconned

06-27-2006, 01:41 PM

Im writing the new continuity, if you have any suggestions place them here.

Dope Nose

06-27-2006, 01:55 PM

god, I hope this is true. Birthright was ass. I mean, soul-vision?!

DavidTyler

06-27-2006, 01:56 PM

Here's my suggestion: start w/Man Of Steel. That is the most interesting version of Krypton. No frigging crystaline world. Human life can't survive let along evolve on a world like that. What the hell would they eat? Quartz?

The S shouldn't be the symbol of the El family or anything Kryptonian. I like the 8 they use on Smallville. One can easily see how Jonathan and Clark would adapt that emblem into the familiar \S/.

And the suit is not Kryptonian... it was made by Martha and Clark's tight aura is what keeps it intact. That's why the cape can suffer while the skin tight costume survives.

Give us back the Birthing Matrix - it's the most believable way to get the baby from Krypton to Earth. As I've said in many other posts, the matrix would tend to all the infant's needs as it made the journey. Wrapping him in blankets and dropping him into the cockpit of a rocket will only result in a dehydrated, starved corpse with signs of being bounced around the inside of the ship.

MOS Smallville works for me but I'm kind of diggin Lex in Smallville. If we could find a way to include some of those elements ... including - at least for a little while - Lionel.

If I think of anything else, I'll post.

BTW, I know you're probably not the one doing the rewrite. I'm just posting the suggestions here for the hell of it.

batman44

06-27-2006, 02:05 PM

retconned

06-27-2006, 02:37 PM

It's nice to find Superman fans who share my taste's atleast somewhere on this board. I say we boycott the comics if they return to silverage style.

The Question

06-27-2006, 04:11 PM

I'm a big fan of Waid, but Birthright was his weakest work. I didn't even read much of it, just two or three issues and I skimmed the rest. And god, it was just kind of boring. Anyway, I actually like the \S/ (or some variation of it) being a Kryptonian symbol, but it's hardly a necesity for me.

DavidTyler

06-27-2006, 06:06 PM

It's nice to find Superman fans who share my taste's atleast somewhere on this board. I say we boycott the comics if they return to silverage style.

I say we let them know that we'll boycott if they return to a silverage style.

charl_huntress

06-27-2006, 06:18 PM

I say we let them know that we'll boycott if they return to a silverage style.

Not all aspects of the SA are bad...uhhh...I can't think of any right off the bat :O ...but seriously I don't think we aren't going to see a return of Superman's big FOS key or any of the "usual" corniest that it associated with the SA. Unfortunately because of that stupid ass show Smallville we got Lex in Smallville with Clark...again. And that's the SA aspect that should be jettison asap. However, though I see why DC is re-incorporating some aspects of the SA. They are not going to go all out.

Corny=SA and Up, up is not corny. They seem to be aiming for a more serious tone, but with some of the...fun and adventureness from the SA. Say what you want, but the SA was...creative.

Agreed on all points about soul vision...I just don't know what to say about that except I hate it with a passion of three burning suns.

Spike_x1

06-27-2006, 09:20 PM

I'm all for going back to MOS as an origin. Everything that's used today seemed to be based off of it to some extent until recently (the Cyborg, Lex not being a fat 60 year old guy, Metallo, Clark actually being cool and not a character you roll your eyes at, Brainiac, the Death and Return of Superman, Metropolis itself, and many other factors). Although MOS seems to be ignored too, the current Superman continuity was built off MOS. Without Byrne's story being in continuity, the world of our modern Superman's continuity falls apart if you take a moment to stand back and look at how a certain character did [insert activity A] ten years ago, and how it could affect [insert activity B] currently. And the ripples in continuity only spread out and get worse from there.

Motown Marvel

06-28-2006, 12:28 AM

I've been hearing rumours that Birthright is being removed from continuity. Is this true and, if so, what will be replacing it?

Is it possible that we're going back to Man Of Steel? I certainly hope so. While Waid is good with character development, Byrne is by far better with coming up with logical and believable concepts. Waid is just not good at that.

If anyone knows for certain, please post back and give me some info that I can research.

well, to be clear, birthright was never intended for continuity int he first place.

by the way, while i sure as hell hope it DOESNT end up as continuity, what have you been hearing about this and where?

it seems that with the whole infinite crisis thing, lots of stuff got merged....like MOS and Birthright...but it still hasnt been made quite clear yet, post infinite crisis, the details of supes' origins.

warren_sparta27

06-28-2006, 10:34 AM

The S shouldn't be the symbol of the El family or anything Kryptonian. I like the 8 they use on Smallville. One can easily see how Jonathan and Clark would adapt that emblem into the familiar \S/.

MOS Smallville works for me but I'm kind of diggin Lex in Smallville.

in one of the 52 issue Ralph is talking to Cassie and says something about what the 'S' actually ment in Krypton, it ment hope i think...i think that works well, and that it should stay like that. :supes:

and i'm also a fan of Lex being around in Smallville :up:

Spike_x1

06-28-2006, 06:16 PM

I'm more a fan of Lex's upbringing alongside Perry White in Byrne's mythology. Luthor just comes across as so much more evil, yet sympathetic at the same time.

The Question

06-28-2006, 06:36 PM

Yeah. I mean, he is a total *******, even when he's doing what he thinks is the right and honorable thing to do, but the fact that he grew up in the slums (an environment where it's basically "If you want or need something, just take it and don't look back"), it is somewhat understandible.

Kane

06-28-2006, 07:32 PM

retconned

06-28-2006, 07:42 PM

Ben Urich

06-29-2006, 12:46 AM

I loved Birthright. I wish it were canon.

Motown Marvel

06-29-2006, 02:55 AM

Its no rumor.

At the Toronto Con 2 months ago, I asked Dan Didio myself at the DC Crisis Councilling Panel.........."Whats the official origin for Superman post-IC, Birthright or MOS?"

He said neither. Birthright has been retconned and they are working on a new Silverage-inspired origins that doesnt conflict with the past postcrisis history as much as BR did and is respectable to the mythos.

I cant wait for this. I hope we get the crystal Krypton from the film, looked amazing in the prequel comics.

thanks! honestly, whether you're a silver age fan or not...thank f**king god
that they're directly addressing the situation and getting everything cleared up. and damn, at least they aint going with birthright as the origin....:up:

Kane

06-29-2006, 03:11 AM

Alright, everybody join me in booing Kane out of this thread. If you haven't noticed, not many people here want your precious silverage influenced comics back, other than Charl I think. Thats silverage loving BS might work on the Returns board, but not here and not in community.

P.S. Kane, are you a plant for the WB and Singer, honestly?

Wtf. Dont be an idiot.

I'm just keeping it real and stating things for what they are. Whether you like it or not, the silverage revival has been happening and will continue..

So deal..

Kane

06-29-2006, 03:14 AM

I loved Birthright. I wish it were canon.

It got mixed reviews, didnt sell as well as expected, violated existing postcrisis continuity............so most of the fans were on the fence about it and so was DC.

Worst of all, it had some ties to Smallville the TV series.... So I'm thankful they arent keeping it.

The Joker

06-29-2006, 10:17 AM

I liked Birthright, the Smallville refferences were only the fact that it was updating Lex in Smallville/knowing Clark before he was Superman, which is actually from the Silver Age...Other than that it wasn't like Smallville at all. I'm not upset it's being retconned though, cause I think it actually works best as an elseworld, or in this case, an in continuity thing that changed because Superboy punched the universe (god, that's still soooooo stupid)

Emrys

06-30-2006, 09:50 AM

I for one couldn't be happier, we finally get the coolest thing from the movies in the comics too, the crystal tech. Looked great in the preview comics to SR and looked even better in Up Up and Away, We got the movie fortress already all that is left now is the ship, excelent.

Gogo Bananas

06-30-2006, 03:44 PM

DC just has to stop confusing the **** outta people and stick to one bloody story.
But I vote MOS.

Lt. Figgnuts

06-30-2006, 04:58 PM

Although MOS seems to be ignored too, the current Superman continuity was built off MOS. Without Byrne's story being in continuity, the world of our modern Superman's continuity falls apart if you take a moment to stand back and look at how a certain character did [insert activity A] ten years ago, and how it could affect [insert activity B] currently. And the ripples in continuity only spread out and get worse from there.

Damn that Superboy!

Anyway, I was never a big fan of the "arctic crystal super planet" Krypton as depicted in the Donner films. Just didn't do it for me...

Gogo Bananas

06-30-2006, 05:06 PM

Byrnes Krypton was best - it was actually alien instead of Earth remix.
Having Krypton more alien underscores the humanity Kal-El has developed on Earth.

NotFadeAway

06-30-2006, 05:35 PM

Man Of Steel............

VaderRISE

06-30-2006, 06:31 PM

...I'm thinking I need to read Man Of Steel.

DavidTyler

07-01-2006, 02:02 PM

...I'm thinking I need to read Man Of Steel.

And, when you do, please concentrate on the concepts Bryne and Wolfman (why do people keep forgetting long-time DC scribe Wolfman when speaking about the MOS reboot?) put forth more than any specific character dialogue.

BTW, I can't say enough how much I love Byrne's Krypton. It just makes total sense to me.

Byrne's Krypton is an extremely advanced civilization that has grown sterile and repressive. So sterile in fact that they've even elimated physical contact for procreation and, additionally, have clothing that completely covers their bodies except for their completely shaven faces.

Byrne's Jor-el didn't just save his son from a planet about to be destroyed but from a dying civiliation. And I love the way Bryne and co. handle Jor-el's rebellion. Jor-els story alone would make a good science fiction movie. It almost feels like one of the great sf films I grew up with like Logan's Run.

Gogo Bananas

07-01-2006, 03:16 PM

Plus it offers an explanation as to why the Kryptonians didn't evacuate their planet before it blew up.

Comic Book Boy

07-02-2006, 12:45 AM

Am I the only one who loved BIRTHRIGHT? It was a great exploration of Kal-El...Real cool writting. Fun to read. Good characters.

(Bryne's MAN OF STEEL was cool too)

Dope Nose

07-02-2006, 02:24 AM

BTW, I can't say enough how much I love Byrne's Krypton. It just makes total sense to me.

Byrne's Krypton is an extremely advanced civilization that has grown sterile and repressive. So sterile in fact that they've even elimated physical contact for procreation and, additionally, have clothing that completely covers their bodies except for their completely shaven faces.

Byrne's Jor-el didn't just save his son from a planet about to be destroyed but from a dying civiliation. And I love the way Bryne and co. handle Jor-el's rebellion. Jor-els story alone would make a good science fiction movie. It almost feels like one of the great sf films I grew up with like Logan's Run.

couldn't agree more.

charl_huntress

07-02-2006, 02:47 AM

There has been such division with folks complaing over the Byrne reboot, and I'm glad to see that there are people happy with the changes. I like the reboot. I thought it was a wonderful concept and really helped revitalize the character with more energy but less corn than the SA.

Spike_x1

07-02-2006, 10:34 AM

And, when you do, please concentrate on the concepts Bryne and Wolfman (why do people keep forgetting long-time DC scribe Wolfman when speaking about the MOS reboot?) put forth more than any specific character dialogue.

BTW, I can't say enough how much I love Byrne's Krypton. It just makes total sense to me.

Byrne's Krypton is an extremely advanced civilization that has grown sterile and repressive. So sterile in fact that they've even elimated physical contact for procreation and, additionally, have clothing that completely covers their bodies except for their completely shaven faces.

Byrne's Jor-el didn't just save his son from a planet about to be destroyed but from a dying civiliation. And I love the way Bryne and co. handle Jor-el's rebellion. Jor-els story alone would make a good science fiction movie. It almost feels like one of the great sf films I grew up with like Logan's Run.By contrast, that depiction of Krypton also reinforces the strength of character that Jor-el had with the simple fact that his last act before the planet exploded was to tell Lara that he loved her. :up::up:

Ender Durden

07-03-2006, 04:46 AM

Am I the only one who loved BIRTHRIGHT? It was a great exploration of Kal-El...Real cool writting. Fun to read. Good characters.

(Bryne's MAN OF STEEL was cool too)

i still need to read MOS but i loved Birthright as well. i personally loved its explanation of the :supes:. how its the symbol for krypton/hope and not just the the El family crest makes much more sense, since it explains that Superman is known as the last son of "Krypton" and not "El", and how it just happens to look like the letter S is cool to me.

the thought of clark putting an S on his chest and calling himself Superman was always just dumb. even if it was the kent family symbol from an indian snake decoration or whatever. In Birthright it symbolizes where he truly comes from, the origin of his powers and his people. and it explains why he has no mask and why is suit is bright. i admit it sometimes grabs in the air for explanations on little things but its still interesting. also i love genius/insane lex in smallville.

does MOS explain these characteristics in a better way?

Magneto

07-03-2006, 10:49 AM

I have to say that enjoyed MOS, more than I did Waid's Birthright. So yeah, MOS is my choice. Birthright was alright, but I remember Waid mentioning that he was more of less forced to make changes so that it would be more similar to smallville. Which I find to be very unfortunate if true. Not a huge Byrne fan, but MOS was pretty damn cool. :up:

Kurosawa

07-05-2006, 08:46 PM

I hated MOS and tolerated Birthright. I would rather have something close to the REAL Krypton-the Siegel and Shuster version. Maybe not superhuman Kryptonians, but definately the Alex Raymond/Fritz Lang inspired Krypton instead of Byrne's ugly, ugly, UGLY ****ing mess or the movie version.

DC would NEVER have the balls to do this though. That's just more of why American comics are slowly and deservedly dying out.

The Joker

07-06-2006, 04:45 PM

yes, American comics are dying, that's why they're at there highest point in 10 years...try again, dumbass :o

Kurosawa

07-06-2006, 07:26 PM

yes, American comics are dying, that's why they're at there highest point in 10 years...try again, dumbass :o

First of all, **** you. I've forgotten more about comics than you'll ever know.

Second of all look at sales figures from the late 70's and look at sales figures now. Idiot.

What happens is each time they pull some crap like throwing out all the Earth-One Superman stories, killing characters, etc, they lose a few more readers. Maybe only one out of 10 people who say they're quitting comics after their latest rape/murder/retcon actually do, but built up over 20 years and a lot of stupid stories and that's a lot of readers lost. And they gain very little.

Basically what has happened in American comics is people have been trying to write their own versions of Dark Knight and Watchmen for the past 20 years.

The point that comics are at now is nothing compared to where they once were. And it'll never get back there either.

And in closing, go straight to hell, *******, and welcome to my ignore list.

Up Up & Oy Vey!

07-06-2006, 10:46 PM

...
Kurosawa... That was extremely unnescesary.

Kurosawa

07-07-2006, 12:07 AM

...
Kurosawa... That was extremely unnescesary.

Last time I checked he called me a dumbass first.

DavidTyler

07-09-2006, 01:50 PM

i still need to read MOS but i loved Birthright as well. i personally loved its explanation of the :supes:. how its the symbol for krypton/hope and not just the the El family crest makes much more sense, since it explains that Superman is known as the last son of "Krypton" and not "El", and how it just happens to look like the letter S is cool to me.

the thought of clark putting an S on his chest and calling himself Superman was always just dumb. even if it was the kent family symbol from an indian snake decoration or whatever. In Birthright it symbolizes where he truly comes from, the origin of his powers and his people. and it explains why he has no mask and why is suit is bright. i admit it sometimes grabs in the air for explanations on little things but its still interesting. also i love genius/insane lex in smallville.

does MOS explain these characteristics in a better way?

I agree about the Kent Snake crest. I didn't like that at all BUT that didn't come from MOS. In Man of Steel, Jonathan and Clark leave the room and come back with the design. It's never said what they used for inspiration. They may very well have gone out to the ship and found something there that they modified into the familiar \S/.

As to naming himself, it doesn't happen in that way in MOS. Clark had been traveling the world secretly doing super deeds without a costume. Just regular clothes - jeans and t shirt. When he makes a very public rescue, Lois sees the event and names him Superman in the article she writes about the incident. The heading was something like 'Unknown Superman saves Space Plane'. I'd have to dig out my copy to give you the exact wording.

It's after this that he adopts the identity and the costume.

JTStarkiller

07-20-2006, 03:31 AM

Is the negativity towards Birthright mostly because it screws with continuity, or that it's simply not a good story? I don't know much about these things, but maybe it would be better received if it's known from the start that it's an elseworld tale.

I'm only about a third of the way through Birthright, but I'm liking it so far. I've also only read issue 1 of MOS, so I don't know what happens after he flies up as Superman.

Since neither are technically in continuity as of right now, I'm approaching these more in terms of story, and not how they fit into the Superman mythology. With that in mind, Birthright immediately strikes me as a better book. I know MOS is 20 years, but the dialogue just doesn't quite cut it. It's hard to take it seriously. I still need to track down the entire thing sometime, all six issues.

charl_huntress

07-20-2006, 01:33 PM

Is the negativity towards Birthright mostly because it screws with continuity, or that it's simply not a good story?

LOL...for me it's two things that KILL the story: Soul Vision and Vegatarianism. The story is alright, and I probably wouldn't mind the continuity changes but SOUL VISION????

Uh uh...that gets a big NO for me.

I don't know much about these things, but maybe it would be better received if it's known from the start that it's an elseworld tale.

That's usually the case for stories that fudge on continuity or timeline. I like FT, but it would have been much better as a graphic novel out of continuity. BR would probably be better received if it had been handled that way, but from what I had heard it was supposed to be the new continuity. However, fan reaction nixed that idea so....Prime-boy punched the wall so it made sense:up:

I'm only about a third of the way through Birthright, but I'm liking it so far. I've also only read issue 1 of MOS, so I don't know what happens after he flies up as Superman.

Since neither are technically in continuity as of right now, I'm approaching these more in terms of story, and not how they fit into the Superman mythology. With that in mind, Birthright immediately strikes me as a better book. I know MOS is 20 years, but the dialogue just doesn't quite cut it. It's hard to take it seriously. I still need to track down the entire thing sometime, all six issues.

MOS is great! The dialogue is appropo for the time period. I like the dialogue in BR too.

JTStarkiller

07-20-2006, 01:44 PM

Thanks for the reply. By the way, what's FT?

charl_huntress

07-20-2006, 04:25 PM

^^For Tomorrow...which has some wonderful art.

JTStarkiller

07-20-2006, 05:06 PM

Oh you're right. It sure does. I've read Vol. 1, but waiting for Vol. 2 to be released in paperback. Jim Lee is incredible.

charl_huntress

07-20-2006, 05:27 PM

^^I didn't like it in continuity. The artwork in that story is far better than BR, yet I still like it.

Again, it's one of those stories that has value that is better served outside of continuity. BR is like that too...

Superbaty77

07-24-2006, 10:18 AM

i still need to read MOS but i loved Birthright as well. i personally loved its explanation of the :supes:. how its the symbol for krypton/hope and not just the the El family crest makes much more sense, since it explains that Superman is known as the last son of "Krypton" and not "El", and how it just happens to look like the letter S is cool to me.

the thought of clark putting an S on his chest and calling himself Superman was always just dumb. even if it was the kent family symbol from an indian snake decoration or whatever. In Birthright it symbolizes where he truly comes from, the origin of his powers and his people. and it explains why he has no mask and why is suit is bright. i admit it sometimes grabs in the air for explanations on little things but its still interesting. also i love genius/insane lex in smallville.

does MOS explain these characteristics in a better way?

While i agree it being a Kent family Symbol dosnt work for me. I disagree with you about the \S/ being a symbol of the whole planet Krypton. First off in birthright. Krypton is the size of [/URL]Jupiter. Theres no way a planet that size would have one universal symbol . I like the idea that the "S" is a family crest for the House of "EL". first its more believable and two since Kal-el is the last son of Krypton. That would make Jor-El the last father of Krypton. Who in least in the movie tryed to save the doom people of Krypton. But there heads where so up there own asses. that they didnt listen and were destroyed. I the it being an "EL" symbol makes sense. If for nothing else then for the movie. Either way it symbolizes Krypton in someways. [URL="http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuo8u08REzTQAEmVXNyoA/SIG=15peetlo3/EXP=1153836206/**http%3a//search.yahoo.com/search%3fp=universal%26sp=1%26fr2=sp-top%26ei=UTF-8%26n=10%26fl=0%26ei=UTF-8%26SpellState=n-2015175107_q-2y2hniV39ii3hyd.DEtG.WMAAA%2540%2540"] (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuou90sREV0AAgGlXNyoA/SIG=162vihtlc/EXP=1153836093/**http%3a//search.yahoo.com/search%3fp=Jupiter%26sp=1%26fr2=sp-top%26ei=UTF-8%26vm=i%26n=10%26fl=0%26ei=UTF-8%26SpellState=n-2067993340_q-ZrleDgVCi%252Fi1qWCa7jJW1AABAA%2540%2540)

Mentok

07-24-2006, 10:42 AM

god, I hope this is true. Birthright was ass. I mean, soul-vision?!

That was the only thing I liked about Birthright.

Redwolf

07-27-2006, 02:31 PM

I've been hearing rumours that Birthright is being removed from continuity. Is this true and, if so, what will be replacing it?

Is it possible that we're going back to Man Of Steel? I certainly hope so. While Waid is good with character development, Byrne is by far better with coming up with logical and believable concepts. Waid is just not good at that.

If anyone knows for certain, please post back and give me some info that I can research.

I really hope this is true, Birthright was okay but I hated the fact Superman had "soul" vision. Also, I hope they get rid of the "Superman is a vegetarian". No offense to those who are, but suddenly changing Superman from the occaisonal meat eater to a vegetarian I didn't like.

Also in Birthright Krypton had no contact with other worlds, which screws up Doomsdays origins.

Lorendiac

07-27-2006, 08:15 PM

I really hope this is true, Birthright was okay but I hated the fact Superman had "soul" vision. Also, I hope they get rid of the "Superman is a vegetarian". No offense to those who are, but suddenly changing Superman from the occaisonal meat eater to a vegetarian I didn't like.

Also in Birthright Krypton had no contact with other worlds, which screws up Doomsdays origins.

I agree with you about the soul vision and the vegetarian thing.

On the other hand: On your last point, I don't really care about Doomsday's origin story in the first place. As is, I just want him to vanish into comic book limbo and never come back. He's long since outlived his usefulness. If no new Superman story ever mentions Doomsday or his origin story again, I won't see any reason to regret it! :)

AmbientFire

07-27-2006, 10:15 PM

Love the soul vision, and having Superman as a vegetarian is not a problem, in fact it makes perfect sense.

AmbientFire

07-27-2006, 10:16 PM

although i would've liked to see the soul vision be more of a "soul-feeling" type thing, like he could sense another's presence or aura leave them

Motown Marvel

07-27-2006, 10:56 PM

at comic con, during the end of a panel, they only had a few minutes left and dan didio wanted to get through as may questions as he could in the little time they had left....

ME: official superman origin: man of steel or birthright?
DIDIO: Yes. next question.
WAID: *cough*birthright*cough*

Spike_x1

07-29-2006, 03:25 AM

I really hope this is true, Birthright was okay but I hated the fact Superman had "soul" vision. Also, I hope they get rid of the "Superman is a vegetarian". No offense to those who are, but suddenly changing Superman from the occaisonal meat eater to a vegetarian I didn't like.

Also in Birthright Krypton had no contact with other worlds, which screws up Doomsdays origins.Man of Steel's Krypton didn't have contact with other worlds either. That's why Doomsday's origin had to take place many thousands of years in the past, before the people we know as Kryptonians became the dominant species on the planet.

In terms of what characters' origins were actually screwed up and now don't make sense or fit anywhere in continuity, the list includes the Cyborg, Metallo, Perry White, Parallax, Kyle Rayner, and many others.

It's very poor storytelling. If they were going to change such a major milestone in Superman's continuity as his origin, they should've gone all-out and just restarted everything instead of going back and forth like this and screwing up their own stories.

Andy C.

07-29-2006, 03:26 PM

As a stand-alone story or an alternate timeline, I vastly prefer Birthright. However, there's way too much in it that is contradictory to the main storyline. So in terms of officiality I'd have to go with Man of Steel.

(Though I always wanted to see them do a full-length series continuing Birthright, sort of an "Ultimate Superman" thing)

Substance D

08-03-2006, 12:43 PM

I found BR to be mundane. Not grand and epic like a Superman origin should be. I've yet to read MOS, tho. But from what I've heard, MOS's Krypton sounds more alien and frightening, and I prefer that. It's like Jor-El couldn't save his world, so he's sending his son to Earth to prevent us from following in their footsteps. Also, the Krypton in BR is goofy looking. Superman looks 'tarded too.

Anyways, if there are any writers here that want to work on a revamp of Superman, PM me. I'm an artist, and we can work on a treatment and pitch it to DC.