Captain America has lost his moral authority

[LouFerignoDemon]

If the public looks at the mistakes of a minority of heroes and decides that they apply to the majority, then the public is stupid and ungrateful.

How many times has the world been saved by now because of men and women who risk their lives without compensation of any sort? Who are the hypocrites who will praise a superhero one day when he or she drags their asses out of a burning building and then condemn them out of mistaken paranoia the next day? One day they're called icons, American heroes, great men and women...and the next day they are referred to as unpatriotic terrorists who let their egos run wild.

I find that incredibly low, for the Marvel universe's public to turn on these people like that.

It's not just the minority. ALL hero's make mistakes. If they didn't, then they'd all be crappy bland hero's to read. They all contain biases, and become unreasonable in many situations (usually concerning certain enemies).

And the public only sees the potential for wrong, not the potential for good. They're the public after all. And nobody ever said the general public had common sense.

[BrianWilly]

Exactly.

Everyone's looking at costumed vigilantes as potential Stamfords waiting to happen. Which, given the circumstances of grief and fear, is completely understandable. It's just not true. It's reactionary and judgmental. The only reason that this Superhero Registration Act was even passed was because the public made a reactionary and judgmental decision based on grief and fear, not truth. How could a law like that possibly be valid, much less helpful?

Who does it really help? The public, or the government who now has unprecedented access to these "dangerous terrorists?"

[Darthphere]

Like the Patriot Act....oh snap.

[LouFerignoDemon]

The two major problems for me, with the execution of the story (ignoring the whole whether it's makes sense or not for registration):

1. The Stamford Incident - the whole thing for Civil War is based on an incident with Nitro, Mr. Pull My Finger. He could fight anyone anywhere, even experienced heroes, and still have the same result of massive property damage and deaths. If it was a more normal super-fight, people getting smashed through buildings, getting hit by collateral damage, etc. (Think a battle turning into a very small scale version of Miracleman #15) I would have an easier time buying the severe reaction of the public. I just think Millar choose a poor idea to start the story as opposed to a more-destructive everyday battle that would make the point about training vs. an adversary that could do the same damage with or without fighting experienced heroes.

Actually, containing Nitro is easier than you think. A sniper or some sort can tranq him from afar. And Iron Man found a less than super destructive way to stop Nitro. A telepath could simply keep him from exploding.

And it didn't stem ONLY from this. This was, as Goliath said, the straw that broke the camel's back.

2. The whole "Days of Future Past" treatment. We're literally seeing images that have other heroes and SHIELD acting like the Gestapo. Going out of their way to arrest heroes for being good samaritans as opposed to, say SUPERVILLIANS. The Supervillians they've HAVE been capturing are being drafted into the Masters of E- I mean, Thunderbolts under the benign control of Baron Zemo, who is an upstanding citizen who's never even had a parking ticket, much less took over half the world (as opposed to the whole world) so he could get his jollies conquering the other half, instead of mind-controlling all of it at once for a bloodless coup. I mean, could you see this man breaking into a highly guarded super-hero headquarters and trying to kill and maim high-profile superheroes like Captain America and Hercules? No, he's a great guy that deserves all of the trust and power Henry Gyric (an upstanding government operative with no history of disliking superhumans) can give them. I'm also absolutely sure that their method of controlling the villians via teleporting them directly to a cell, people who have absolutely no history of violently trying to kill or injure superheroes they're being drafted to capture, have no way of shutting down said control thanks to highly intelligent members of their "team" such as Doctor Octopus. We can completely trust them, and that they really do want to reform!

Baron Zemo constructed a team to kill one of his teammates.

And it's the fact they USED to be villans. Saying you're going to reform means almost nothing, and the actions proving you're going to reform will take a LOOONG time for people to understand.

As for not taking down supervillans? They have already brought down supervillans. They're not just hunting other hero's. They're hunting ALL lawbreakers. And being a good samaritan doesn't always mean you're doing the right thing.

Anywho, it would make more sense for it to be a more passive "hunt" for superheroes, busting them as they stop crime. (Did they even give heroes more than one day to register? I'm not clear on that. There should be a month or so to give them time to think about it, or take time from say, their personal lives that they have to work around when they choose to superhero). This should be more of a job for "anti-supervillian" cops like code blue, not Stormtroopers from Frau Hill. I can understand it if a particular hero keeps getting away from the cops, or requires more firepower/technology/other heroes to capture them, but the "Days of Future Past minus the Sentinels" is taking it too far. Would it be a less interesting book if it was more low-key in the way they approach the issue? Yes. But it would be more realistic and reasonable than going Nazi on them.

They are only busting them as they're trying to stop crimes, or going out in costume and actively pursuing their unregistered personas. The only hero's they seem to be just storming for is Steve's team. If I were a citizen in MU, I'd like to see SHIELD and such very vigorously pursuing lawbreakers, rather than being lazy about it.

ETA: If I was a taxpayer in the MU, I'd be pissed at the very least at the waste of tax-dollars. Building a prison just for superheroes? When there allready are ones like the Vault (or Raft, I can't remember if the Vault was destroyed or not), and the Big House/Ant Farm designed specifically for holding super-powered people? I mean, with deputizing all those villians, the existing prisons should be empty.

The Raft obviously proved inefficient as Electro alone was capable of releasing every single prisoner.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Exactly.

Everyone's looking at costumed vigilantes as potential Stamfords waiting to happen. Which, given the circumstances of grief and fear, is completely understandable. It's just not true. It's reactionary and judgmental. The only reason that this Superhero Registration Act was even passed was because the public made a reactionary and judgmental decision based on grief and fear, not truth. How could a law like that possibly be valid, much less helpful?

Who does it really help? The public, or the government who now has unprecedented access to these "dangerous terrorists?"

It's true to US. Not to them. WE have the fortune of being able to read ALL about them. Where if we were them in their universe, we would know little to nothing about them, except for a few. Hell, WE know more about Tony's personal life than the Vogue or Time of their universe.


And if you judge those humans as making decisions reactively as bad, many hero's make their judgements like that. Out of anger, vengence, sadness and such.


And the truth is, is that the Stamford incident DID happen. And like a terrorist attack on any country, it WILL happen again unless things change to prevent that.

And who does it really help? You'd hope the people, since the most likely people to run the hero forces will probably BE hero's like Tony, Reed, and Pym. It's not like SHIELD or someone is looking to take over America. Unless that's what you're suggesting, to which I would say they're not.

[Shadowknight]

Actually, containing Nitro is easier than you think. A sniper or some sort can tranq him from afar. And Iron Man found a less than super destructive way to stop Nitro. A telepath could simply keep him from exploding.
Yes, but you're not going to see a sniper used outside of the Punisher or the police. Nor are you going to see a telepath used. My point is from a REASONABLE standpoint, it was a bad choice by Millar. A normal fight getting completely out of control is something I could buy. Having someone who can go nuclear at any time is too much of a cheap setup for the storyline. For example, having Nefaria and Sentry slugging it out, causing massive property damage and accidental deaths would have been a better setup, for example.

Baron Zemo constructed a team to kill one of his teammates.
?

And it's the fact they USED to be villans. Saying you're going to reform means almost nothing, and the actions proving you're going to reform will take a LOOONG time for people to understand.
Unicorn, Pretty Persuasions, Ox, Doctor Octopus, the Serpent Society... I'm saying that the public should be reacting badly to their "super-police" for busting super-heroes are now the people THEY used to bust. And if the teleporter devices shut down? You have a massive army of villians used to working together. Imagine a Masters of Evil X 5, even if Zemo is being straight up, HE'S made a major screw up in this theoretical scenario. They're even training them to take down heroes, so you now would have a villian army EVEN MORE EFFECTIVE THAN BEFORE, taught tactics meant for taking down their own foes.

As for not taking down supervillans? They have already brought down supervillans. They're not just hunting other hero's. They're hunting ALL lawbreakers. And being a good samaritan doesn't always mean you're doing the right thing.
There are more villians out there than they've captured. I'd rather see them taking down threats like AIM, HYDRA, the Green Goblin, Venom, the Mad Thinker, the Abomination, Mr. Sinister, the Reavers, Apocolpyse (big-terrorist), Ultron, the Grey Gargoyle, the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, the Master of the World, the Absorbing Man, Titania, Tigershark, Attuma, the Living Laser, the Crimson Dynamo, the Titanium Man (wasn't that the same person Tony Stark PAID to attack Congress?), Crossbones, Flagsmasher, the Squadron Sinister, Count Nefaria, Madam Masque, MODOCK, the Mandarin, and so on... and those are only the ones I can think of off the top of my head (yes, some are in prison, but they'll get out)

Instead of hunting down heroes, they should be putting their SHIELD and registered superhuman forces to doing something useful. Like bust the people that are trying to destroy the world THEN bust the people who are trying to save it.

They are only busting them as they're trying to stop crimes, or going out in costume and actively pursuing their unregistered personas. The only hero's they seem to be just storming for is Steve's team. If I were a citizen in MU, I'd like to see SHIELD and such very vigorously pursuing lawbreakers, rather than being lazy about it.
Considering the good they do, it's like going after jaywalkers, litterers and people who speed 5 miles over the speed limit. They're breaking the law, but the cops are more interested in crimes that really matter; assault, armed robbery, illegal drug use, tresspassing, attempted murder, hit and run, etc. I don't think superheroes saving people should be high on their list of crimes that NEED to be stopped. Take care of people like the Lizard, Electro, Kingpin, Bullseye (yes, I know the last two are in prison, but for example..), Hammerhead, the Lizard, Electro, Boomerang, Sandman, Mysterio, Vulture, Rhino, Looter (yes, even the Looter)... even the Hypnohustler, Big Wheel and Turner D. Century, if they were still alive, would be a better use of resources than taking down Captain America and Hercules.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Yes, but you're not going to see a sniper used outside of the Punisher or the police. Nor are you going to see a telepath used. My point is from a REASONABLE standpoint, it was a bad choice by Millar. A normal fight getting completely out of control is something I could buy. Having someone who can go nuclear at any time is too much of a cheap setup for the storyline. For example, having Nefaria and Sentry slugging it out, causing massive property damage and accidental deaths would have been a better setup, for example.


?
Only because registration won't last. In an effective team, something like those scenarios WOULD be used. But you're right, we won't see it, because registration won't be around long enough for this scenario to play out. If it were left up to be run, plotted, and deployed by Reed, Tony and such, you'd definitely see this sort of thing.

Unicorn, Pretty Persuasions, Ox, Doctor Octopus, the Serpent Society... I'm saying that the public should be reacting badly to their "super-police" for busting super-heroes are now the people THEY used to bust. And if the teleporter devices shut down? You have a massive army of villians used to working together. Imagine a Masters of Evil X 5, even if Zemo is being straight up, HE'S made a major screw up in this theoretical scenario. They're even training them to take down heroes, so you now would have a villian army EVEN MORE EFFECTIVE THAN BEFORE, taught tactics meant for taking down their own foes.

The whole point of registration is becoming legitimate and building a team that's meant to contain. You can't turn away someone trying to help. While there's always this risk, these sort of risks even run in the military and such. Plus, keeping them ON the team is a far easier way of keeping track of them. And they'd know THEIR moves too.


There are more villians out there than they've captured. I'd rather see them taking down threats like AIM, HYDRA, the Green Goblin, Venom, the Mad Thinker, the Abomination, Mr. Sinister, the Reavers, Apocolpyse (big-terrorist), Ultron, the Grey Gargoyle, the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, the Master of the World, the Absorbing Man, Titania, Tigershark, Attuma, the Living Laser, the Crimson Dynamo, the Titanium Man (wasn't that the same person Tony Stark PAID to attack Congress?), Crossbones, Flagsmasher, the Squadron Sinister, Count Nefaria, Madam Masque, MODOCK, the Mandarin, and so on... and those are only the ones I can think of off the top of my head (yes, some are in prison, but they'll get out)

Many of these villans haven't popped up yet. And they're much more worried about taking care of surfaced problems at the moment than ones yet to. Especially since they're trying to basically still build their forces.

Instead of hunting down heroes, they should be putting their SHIELD and registered superhuman forces to doing something useful. Like bust the people that are trying to destroy the world THEN bust the people who are trying to save it.

You wouldn't believe how often those things can go hand in hand. Plus, they're suppossed to be stopping ALL crime they come across. Not just crime THEY think they should be stopping. Cops can't just forgo one crime that's obviously right there to go after another crime they think is more pertinent to stop when there's an entire force of cops to deploy. Same deal with registration. That's why they want a FLEET of hero's. So they can be deployed to several situations, rather than one or two at a time.


Considering the good they do, it's like going after jaywalkers, litterers and people who speed 5 miles over the speed limit. They're breaking the law, but the cops are more interested in crimes that really matter; assault, armed robbery, illegal drug use, tresspassing, attempted murder, hit and run, etc. I don't think superheroes saving people should be high on their list of crimes that NEED to be stopped. Take care of people like the Lizard, Electro, Kingpin, Bullseye (yes, I know the last two are in prison, but for example..), Hammerhead, the Lizard, Electro, Boomerang, Sandman, Mysterio, Vulture, Rhino, Looter (yes, even the Looter)... even the Hypnohustler, Big Wheel and Turner D. Century, if they were still alive, would be a better use of resources than taking down Captain America and Hercules.

I doubt busting some guys jaw is comparable to littering, jawwalking, or going over the speed limit. Seeing how unregistered combatants are probably registered under assault and tresspassing, possible attempted murder, and the fact they beat up people and leave, so in a way, hit and run. And like I said, if you want to enforce the law, you have to enforce ALL of it, not just parts of it, and get back to it later.

[BrianWilly]

It's true to US. Not to them. WE have the fortune of being able to read ALL about them. Where if we were them in their universe, we would know little to nothing about them, except for a few. Hell, WE know more about Tony's personal life than the Vogue or Time of their universe.


And if you judge those humans as making decisions reactively as bad, many hero's make their judgements like that. Out of anger, vengence, sadness and such.


And the truth is, is that the Stamford incident DID happen. And like a terrorist attack on any country, it WILL happen again unless things change to prevent that.The Stamford incident wasn't a terrorist attack, it was a mistake. A mistake which, in the history of that world, is a rarity and not the norm. Even the citizens of the Marvel universe should be aware of that. And if they aren't, which is unlikely...well, ignorance is no excuse. A bad law is a bad law, and just because you didn't know any better doesn't make it all of a sudden okay. It still doesn't change the fact that the SRA was a law passed only due to the fact that everyone voted based on spur-of-the-moment emotions and not solid facts.

The pro-reg side has the tendency to argue that all this registration is for "the greater good." well, how exactly are we affecting the greater good if we start to make laws and statistics based on exceptions to the rule as opposed to the rule? Superheroes work in the Marvel universe. On the whole, they are effective and efficient, if we want to talk about the "greater good," well then, stastically if they had just let the heroes continue to work as they had worked in the past then everything would have worked out just fine. The government knows this because they were told this, by Iron Man of all people. And if the average citizens can't see that then it's their own damn fault. Again, ignorance is no excuse.

[LouFerignoDemon]

The Stamford incident wasn't a terrorist attack, it was a mistake. A mistake which, in the history of that world, is a rarity and not the norm. Even the citizens of the Marvel universe should be aware of that. And if they aren't, which is unlikely...well, ignorance is no excuse. A bad law is a bad law, and just because you didn't know any better doesn't make it all of a sudden okay. It still doesn't change the fact that the SRA was a law passed only due to the fact that everyone voted based on spur-of-the-moment emotions and not solid facts.

I guess since it's rare, it's okay to leave the window open for hundreds of human lives to be eradicated because of a dumb mistake again. Since it's rare.

HUMAN LIVES. Not dolls, or cars. People die in these incidents. Brothers, sisters, wives, husbands, dads, mothers, daughters and sons. People don't care how rare it is, if it can be prevented or lessened, people WANT it prevented or lessened.

And like I said, many hero's do things "spur of the moment". No planning, no questions, they just charge in. Spider-Man does it, and even says it was a dumb idea.

The pro-reg side has the tendency to argue that all this registration is for "the greater good." well, how exactly are we affecting the greater good if we start to make laws and statistics based on exceptions to the rule as opposed to the rule? Superheroes work in the Marvel universe. On the whole, they are effective and efficient, if we want to talk about the "greater good," well then, stastically if they had just let the heroes continue to work as they had worked in the past then everything would have worked out just fine. The government knows this because they were told this, by Iron Man of all people. And if the average citizens can't see that then it's their own damn fault. Again, ignorance is no excuse.

If you talk about how much "good" they do, it's probably fairly little. They spray water at the fire, rather than the base. They take down individual villans, and usually let them get away. With entire teams, with a capture team on the fallback, they could CAPTURE villans, and incarcerate them. They can solve bigger problems with much longer term solutions.

Simply thinking fighting crime one villan at a time every few weeks and such is useless. Not to mention ignorant of the hero. Especially since they sometimes let them go simply because they know they'll pop up again.

Entire trained teams, that can solve problems on a much more efficient scale works in the Marvel universe, instead of letting the hit and miss function, where hero's seem to have the better of luck is a boiling pot of problems.

[BrianWilly]

I guess since it's rare, it's okay to leave the window open for hundreds of human lives to be eradicated because of a dumb mistake again. Since it's rare.If you're arguing for the greater good? Then yes. The needs of many outweigh the needs of the few. The number of people saved by superheroes so far outweigh the number of people hurt by superheroes that it's absurd to compare them.

I almost burst out laughing in the store when, in Frontline #3, Reed Richards said that his special little model predicting the future of their entire world was built on vigilante statistics from the last nine years. Nine years?? The history of costumed superheroes in the Marvel universe stretches back decades and decades, if not centuries!

If you talk about how much "good" they do, it's probably fairly little. They spray water at the fire, rather than the base. They take down individual villans, and usually let them get away. With entire teams, with a capture team on the fallback, they could CAPTURE villans, and incarcerate them. They can solve bigger problems with much longer term solutions.

Simply thinking fighting crime one villan at a time every few weeks and such is useless. Not to mention ignorant of the hero. Especially since they sometimes let them go simply because they know they'll pop up again.Are you joking? How many times have superheroes saved the universe? How many times has the military been crippled by Red Skull or Dr. Doom and needed the Avengers or the Fantastic Four to pull them out of the fire? The Avengers are those "entire teams" that solve the big problems and spray water at the fire. They are those "entire teams" that capture villains and work with the system. They've been that team for years and years.

What do you think superheroes do with the supervillains after they beat them, leave them on the street? No, they turn them over to the police. To the government. The government is supposed to be the ones who incarcerate supervillains and keep them in prison and yes, even impose the death penalty on them if necessary. It's not a superhero's fault if the government is incapable of doing its job. It was hilarious how Agent Hill, in the Illuminati special, blamed Spider-Man for all the murders that the Green Goblin committed since Spider-Man never killed the Green Goblin. Isn't that supposed to be her job??

Those long-term solutions that you speak of are perfectly applicable even without forcing the registration of all superheroes and inciting civil war in the country. If the government had been doing its job of keeping citizens safe and keeping its supervillains contained instead of signing contracts with them, those solutions would have been applied long ago.

[BrianWilly]

HUMAN LIVES. Not dolls, or cars. People die in these incidents. Brothers, sisters, wives, husbands, dads, mothers, daughters and sons. People don't care how rare it is, if it can be prevented or lessened, people WANT it prevented or lessened.Mistakes are going to happen no matter what. Registering heroes and training them all you'd like is not going to prevent future Stamfords from happening considering that Stamford itself was an incident which defied conventions and went against statistical probabilities. The New Warriors were trained. They weren't rookies. Would the accident have happened if they were more trained, more professionals? Maybe. And maybe not. The "maybe nots" are always going to have to factor in.

What happens when you register heroes, train them like hell, make them all reprehensible for their actions and their deeds...and then another tragedy happens? Because I assure you, "another tragedy" is always going to happen. What happens then? Do we adopt the same attitude of fear and propaganda and hysteria as this time around go even stricter? Even more totalitarian? When does it become too much? Where does the slippery slope stop being a slope at all but instead a straight drop to the bottom?

And like I said, many hero's do things "spur of the moment". No planning, no questions, they just charge in. Spider-Man does it, and even says it was a dumb idea.And like I said, that's understandable but not true. It's certainly no basis upon which to be making laws that affect the entire country.

[Shadowknight]

I almost burst out laughing in the store when, in Frontline #3, Reed Richards said that his special little model predicting the future of their entire world was built on vigilante statistics from the last nine years. Nine years?? The history of costumed superheroes in the Marvel universe stretches back decades and decades, if not centuries!
Even worse; the Mad Thinker is the only one who's capable of calculating the likely probability of what events will occur... and he still gets things wrong because of outside variable he didn't know about. Reed and Doom are super-intelligent, but this is the one regard where the Thinker spanks them. I MIGHT buy it (well, probably not) if he made a claim remotely like this, and even then he'd still probably be wrong. Even then, he'd be capable of calculating the actions necessary to reach or avoid certain consequences due to current events.

It was hilarious how Agent Hill, in the Illuminati special, blamed Spider-Man for all the murders that the Green Goblin committed since Spider-Man never killed the Green Goblin. Isn't that supposed to be her job??
Of course, if Spidey did, she'd start saying (in Bendis speaking, repeating the same damn thing 8 times in one page) how Spider-man is an evil, lawbreaking menace who is as bad as the villians he killed by taking the law into his own hands. It's a lose-lose situation; either you don't kill the villian and get unfairly blamed for being responsible for future deaths, or you kill them and get branded a murderer for saving future lives. This lady isn't even worthy of being Nick Fury's secretary, and she's the Director of SHIELD?

[BrianWilly]

You know something interesting? At first the Civil War reminded me of things like the Patriot Act and right to privacy and liberty vs. restriction and all that, but now it's reminding me of something else.

About a year ago (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8655541/), UK police thought that someone had a bomb under his jacket in a subway system. The police told the man to stop, but he didn't. The police shot him...and, as it turns out, the man didn't have a bomb at all.

A few months ago (http://www.keystosaferschools.com/suicide_by_cop.htm), a kid brought a gun to school and started a panic. The police were called in and ended up shooting the kid. As it turns out, the gun was a fake.

Public sentiment at the time to these events was very varied, but there were a lot of shouts of accusations against the police officers for their actions and the "mistakes" that they made. On another message board I visited, there were people claiming that the police should have stricter policies against killing and how trigger-happy mistakes lead to tragedies such as this. The kid brought a real-looking gun to school and held a student hostage and the argument could be made that he got exactly what he was looking for, but the man on the subway? He was entirely innocent. Maybe he reacted wrongly to police officers, but it was hardly a mistake worthy of being shot dead for.

On the other side of the spectrum, people were arguing what else the police officers should have done? They did their jobs exactly as they had been trained to do. If this really was such a "mistake," how does it suddenly negate all the good things that these officers have done throughout the years following those exact same orders and training?

Here's the point: If the man had indeed been a bomber, everyone would have been singing the praises of the brave officers who saved London. If the kid really did have a gun, everyone would claim how unfortunate a tragedy it was but how the police officers involved did the right thing.

Public opinion is a fickle, fickle beast. One minute a man might be a saint, and yet the next minute he'll be the scum of the earth. Look at how public sentiment towards people like Tom Cruise, Kobe Bryant, George Bush, Martha Stewart, and other public figures shifts and varies and summersaults depending on which month of the year it is. We can't make such vital laws based on something like that. Oh, I know that we do, even here in the real world, but we shouldn't. Laws needed to be made based on the informed facts and the blunt truths. The truth is that the Stamford accident is a tragedy, but it was also the exception to the rule. The truth is that the system of masked vigilantism in the Marvel universe has been around for a long time and that it works. That it is a positive force. Perhaps a system might exist wherein all superheroes are forced to register with the government, but the truth is that it's hardly necessary and the fact that it's introduced just now causes far, far more problems than it fixes.

[LouFerignoDemon]

If you're arguing for the greater good? Then yes. The needs of many outweigh the needs of the few. The number of people saved by superheroes so far outweigh the number of people hurt by superheroes that it's absurd to compare them.

Yet, FEWER people would have to die if superhero's were far better organized and trained, rather than letting them sprinkle here and there, and people dying in between, when there's no way for a superhero not to respond to a situation.

People seem to forget hero's aren't everywhere.
I almost burst out laughing in the store when, in Frontline #3, Reed Richards said that his special little model predicting the future of their entire world was built on vigilante statistics from the last nine years. Nine years?? The history of costumed superheroes in the Marvel universe stretches back decades and decades, if not centuries!
If you took any science class, you would know that a recent sample is the better way to go, and not using the whole.

Are you joking? How many times have superheroes saved the universe? How many times has the military been crippled by Red Skull or Dr. Doom and needed the Avengers or the Fantastic Four to pull them out of the fire? The Avengers are those "entire teams" that solve the big problems and spray water at the fire. They are those "entire teams" that capture villains and work with the system. They've been that team for years and years.[quote=BrianWilly]

Of course. Because the American government HAS no way of doing that, because the superhero's decide to act on their own winsome. Hero's are the only ones WITH the power to stop other super villans like that. This basically shows the American people that the superhumans have more than enough power to, if they so decide, just take over America some day if they wanted to. Anybody remember the Order?

As for your thoughts on the Avengers. You're joking, right? Avengers ONLY solve the bigger problems. But are those the ONLY problems? Hell no. You have to think of the bigger picture. There are people. But apparently, it's okay, people will die because the teams will always take care of the bigger things over worrying about everyday things.



[quote=BrianWilly]What do you think superheroes do with the supervillains after they beat them, leave them on the street? No, they turn them over to the police. To the government. The government is supposed to be the ones who incarcerate supervillains and keep them in prison and yes, even impose the death penalty on them if necessary. It's not a superhero's fault if the government is incapable of doing its job. It was hilarious how Agent Hill, in the Illuminati special, blamed Spider-Man for all the murders that the Green Goblin committed since Spider-Man never killed the Green Goblin. Isn't that supposed to be her job??

No, they turn them in to a defunct prisoning system, and the villans break out, usually WITHOUT the hero's seeming to know until they're being attacked.

Totally useful. Let's keep doing that in fact. We'll put them in prisons where regular humans watch over them, and when they break out and kill a few people, we'll wait for them to attack hero's again before the hero's even take notice.

That's ignorant to think that a better penal system wouldn't work. Plain ignorant.

Those long-term solutions that you speak of are perfectly applicable even without forcing the registration of all superheroes and inciting civil war in the country. If the government had been doing its job of keeping citizens safe and keeping its supervillains contained instead of signing contracts with them, those solutions would have been applied long ago.

Yeah, but you know what? HERO'S hold all that power. Not the government. Hero's, totally untrained, make those decisions FOR the American people. And for as many times as hero's work with villans, I'd say they're just as defunct.

Seriously, you're basically saying that hero's are somehow BETTER than humans. When it's obvious that they're just humans with enormous amounts of power at their disposal to do with as they please.


Let's take Iron Man in fact.

If Iron Man wasn't capable of being kept in check (hell, I'll finish it with this little aside from his own comic) project Argonaut would probably DECIMATE the Avengers. And then who's going to stop him? SHIELD? No, he'd probably go through them too. By then, the X-Men MIGHT stand up. But chances are they'd be too underpowered to fight an army of Stark built robots powered by his Extremis mind. Who's left? Runaways, easily defeated. Young Avengers? Gone. Excelsior? Dead. The Fantastic Four MIGHT have a chance. But they're outnumbered, and mostly outpowered. The Hulk would go down, Namor, Doctor Strange couldn't even fight that many ultra powered targets powered and planned by a powerful mind all at once.

Hell, Reed Richards. All that tech and weapons that he's allowed to build. If he decided to turn them on the population, he'd strike after the larger teams first, and work his way down the untrained ladder easily.

Would the American government have the tactical ability to stop them? Probably if they had that sort of power on hand, but no, they're left with conventional means to protect themselves. BOTH of them could rule the planet if they really wanted to.


It's like nobody SEES the positives because they don't want to. It's the romantic notion of heroics that seems to blind people to the pure possibilities that having a trained mass super team could have.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Mistakes are going to happen no matter what. Registering heroes and training them all you'd like is not going to prevent future Stamfords from happening considering that Stamford itself was an incident which defied conventions and went against statistical probabilities. The New Warriors were trained. They weren't rookies. Would the accident have happened if they were more trained, more professionals? Maybe. And maybe not. The "maybe nots" are always going to have to factor in.

So basically... people are going to die anyway, so why even try to make it better? Why even try to limit these incidents? Why try at all?


In that case. Why have heros? Villans will always be there. They'll always kill humans. What's the point? They're never going to go away. They're still just being vigilantes going against the law for something that will never stop. What's the point? They're only human lives. So what if there is a way to actually limit the number who die to a much smaller number? Humans will always die.

As for the maybe not of the New Warriors. I'm thinking a better trained team would have KNOWN better than to just sit in the bushes and talk with the camera crew with one of them right outside. That just speaks VOLUMES of inexperience and lack of basic thinking.

Point is. With a better trained mass team that can be deployed, and a system that actually tracks villans down, and tries to prevent these big problems will LESSEN events like this. Will prevent loss of most human life dealt in these. But it's okay, right? Because it'll happen anyway, just on a larger scale since there's NO prevention as it stands.

What happens when you register heroes, train them like hell, make them all reprehensible for their actions and their deeds...and then another tragedy happens? Because I assure you, "another tragedy" is always going to happen. What happens then? Do we adopt the same attitude of fear and propaganda and hysteria as this time around go even stricter? Even more totalitarian? When does it become too much? Where does the slippery slope stop being a slope at all but instead a straight drop to the bottom?

Of course another tragedy is going to happen. But again. Just because a few are inevitable, they shouldn't even TRY?

If you register them, and train them, they can LESSEN these things. Keep them from happening as much as they do. Because if you think Stamford is the only one, that's just...ignorance on a level I couldn't even relate. Hero tales are for the most part shown in New York and a few other places. There's millions of cities in America. And as easy as it seems to be for villans to come about, and as smart as some are, they are most likely EVERYWHERE. But it's cool, because no matter how well or spread out hero's are, villans will be everywhere. Might as well let villans do their thing, it's an unsolvable problem.

And like I said, that's understandable but not true. It's certainly no basis upon which to be making laws that affect the entire country.

So somehow, it's right for heros? Dude. Hero's are HUMAN. They suffer from the human condition. If you're going to say regular humans shouldn't have this sort of right, neither should superhumans.

[BrianWilly]

I'm heading out so I don't have time to answer all of that, but to make some quick statements...

As for your thoughts on the Avengers. You're joking, right? Avengers ONLY solve the bigger problems. But are those the ONLY problems? Hell no. You have to think of the bigger picture. There are people. But apparently, it's okay, people will die because the teams will always take care of the bigger things over worrying about everyday things.Okay...first, you want the Avengers to solve these big problem. Now, you don't want the Avengers to solve these big problems. So what exactly is it that you want, then:confused:? Do you want the Avengers to fight Ultron and stop Kang whenever they invade, or don't you? You can't have it both ways.

But to give a response: Avengers only solve the bigger problems because that's what their job is. That's what they do so that the government doesn't have to worry about it and can, instead, focus on the real problems that plague our nation.

Incidentally, please provide some examples of these smaller problems that aren't covered by the Avengers. Burglaries? Spider-Man takes on burglars for lunch, breakfast and dinner. Mob bosses? Daredevil is on them like a fat man on fries. Racism? Hello to the X-Men. Of course they're not going to catch every problem everywhere. But that's why we even still have police and government at all; why are these problems only problems that superhumans can solve? Where is the government, where is SHIELD in these sorts of situations? The whole point of superheroes was to make their jobs easier, not to take over the entire situations.

No, they turn them in to a defunct prisoning system, and the villans break out, usually WITHOUT the hero's seeming to know until they're being attacked.

Totally useful. Let's keep doing that in fact. We'll put them in prisons where regular humans watch over them, and when they break out and kill a few people, we'll wait for them to attack hero's again before the hero's even take notice.

That's ignorant to think that a better penal system wouldn't work. Plain ignorant.Wait a minute, this makes no sense. If the holding facilities for supervillains are defunct, then that is the responsibility of the government. Not the superheroes. A "better penal system" is what SHIELD and the military are paid to implement in the first place. What the hell does that have to do with heroes who are out there stopping crime and catching villains? That's not their responsibility. When Spider-Man catches the Scorpion and sends him over to whatever government-implemented superhuman detention facility is around this week, and then the Scorpion escapes from that facility, how the hell is it Spider-Man's fault?

If SHIELD has the capacity to hunt down superheroes in the first place, they have a way to keep supervillains from busting out of jail. In fact, they do; villains like the Green Goblin and most of the ones seen in the first issue of New Avengers were kept under heavily armed, superhuman-proof watch. And, as seen in She-Hulk, there are several prisons in which supervillains are transformed by Pym particles into tiny, harmless versions of themselves. So yes, there were lots of superheroes working with the government, even before this registration act, to ensure that supervillains remain locked up.

[Shadowknight]

Since I've only been flipping through CW on the rack, and refuse to support it monetarily, what is the EXACT purpose of the SHRA? Just to register people's civilian IDs, or are they required to serve the government like they are in the military?

[BrianWilly]

So basically... people are going to die anyway, so why even try to make it better? Why even try to limit these incidents? Why try at all?

In that case. Why have heros? Villans will always be there. They'll always kill humans. What's the point? They're never going to go away. They're still just being vigilantes going against the law for something that will never stop. What's the point? They're only human lives. So what if there is a way to actually limit the number who die to a much smaller number? Humans will always die.

Point is. With a better trained mass team that can be deployed, and a system that actually tracks villans down, and tries to prevent these big problems will LESSEN events like this. Will prevent loss of most human life dealt in these. But it's okay, right? Because it'll happen anyway, just on a larger scale since there's NO prevention as it stands.

Of course another tragedy is going to happen. But again. Just because a few are inevitable, they shouldn't even TRY?You know damn well that's not what I was implying. Good job on trying to deflect the real situation, though.

I mean that mistakes are always going to happen and therefore it's even more vital and important to confront the right mistakes and not overreact stupidly and blindly and exaggeratedly. Stamford was a horrible tragedy that should never happen again, but conducting a nationwide witch-hunt of heroes who have fought and died for the country is an asinine way of fixing it, disrupting a system of vigilantism that has worked very well throughout the history of the country.

Of course another tragedy is going to happen. But again. Just because a few are inevitable, they shouldn't even TRY? They should "try" to be more sensible and not persecute every superhero based on the actions of a few. To persecute all on the basis of a few is called discrimination, the last time I checked, and also the last time I checked there were laws in this country ensuring that you are innocent until proven guilty. In the process of "trying," are we going to treat every one of those people guilty until proven innocent? If not, then how long until we do, since...y'know...we always need to keep "trying?"

There needs to be moral and obvious limits as to just how much we're going to "try" to fix a problem, especially one like the existence of superheroes that doesn't need fixing. Just how far are you willing to go? Just how many rights get trampled along the way? Just how far is too far to "try" before you're just being unreasonable?

If you register them, and train them, they can LESSEN these things. Keep them from happening as much as they do. Because if you think Stamford is the only one, that's just...ignorance on a level I couldn't even relate.Show me some evidence. I don't believe that Stamford is the only incident of superhumans ever using bad judgment which resulted in tragedy, but it sure as hell is the only one of its magnitude. Show me otherwise.

So somehow, it's right for heros? Dude. Hero's are HUMAN. They suffer from the human condition. If you're going to say regular humans shouldn't have this sort of right, neither should superhumans.I said that laws should not be passed based on blind emotion as opposed to solid fact. That goes for heroes and otherwise. I have no idea where in the world you thought I said that superhumans have some sort of right where regular people don't.

[LouFerignoDemon]

I'm heading out so I don't have time to answer all of that, but to make some quick statements...

Okay...first, you want the Avengers to solve these big problem. Now, you don't want the Avengers to solve these big problems. So what exactly is it that you want, then:confused:? Do you want the Avengers to fight Ultron and stop Kang whenever they invade, or don't you? You can't have it both ways.

What the people want is a highly effective team, formed of members that could respond to the big events in the most efficient way to resolve it rather quickly, and with as little destruction and casualties as possible. The Avengers are a general response team at best. Better teams can be formed for varying events. And I never said I didn't want the Avengers. That was you taking my words out of context.

But to give a response: Avengers only solve the bigger problems because that's what their job is. That's what they do so that the government doesn't have to worry about it and can, instead, focus on the real problems that plague our nation.

Or, you could have a superhuman team that doesn't just worry about the big things. A team big enough that can solve MORE problems. Hostage situation? Speedster or telepath. Or we can leave it to the cops, and hope that nobody has to die.

Incidentally, please provide some examples of these smaller problems that aren't covered by the Avengers. Burglaries? Spider-Man takes on burglars for lunch, breakfast and dinner. Mob bosses? Daredevil is on them like a fat man on fries. Racism? Hello to the X-Men. Of course they're not going to catch every problem everywhere. But that's why we even still have police and government at all; why are these problems only problems that superhumans can solve? Where is the government, where is SHIELD in these sorts of situations? The whole point of superheroes was to make their jobs easier, not to take over the entire situations.

Oh, aside from the several times that Doc Ock throws cars at Spider-Man? Cars don't just dissapear. They land. And incidentally, Doc Ock and Spider-Man fight in POPULATED areas. It's not like Otto just picks out the one time of day Spidey is caught going through the park. Let's keep going with Spider-Man. Electro. His energy is fed by the energy around him, depriving people of power that keeps their food cold, and their houses warm. Can't forget about people like the Beetle. I love his wonton destructive ways. Hydroman doesn't mind drowning people. But it's cool, right? Because the hero's alone could handle the problem. So what if a few more people die in the process? Why sacrifice pride? A team WOULD work better, and limit all destruction and casualties. But a single hero can take care of them eventually. Dude, TOTALLY forgot about the Lizard, Stilt Man, the Goblins, and the almost never ending list of villans Spider-Man ends up chasing through cities, and having things thrown at him by. Or the cadre of villans that trash humans for kicks it seems most of the time when they just go out to rob a store.

Burglaries? Yep. Spider-Man takes care of EACH and EVERY one going on in New York. The hundreds that happen every hour. He's so unbelievably f'ing fast and efficient. Why have cops at all? Spidey can take care of ALL of them. See where that analysis kind of dies? There's only ONE Spider-Man, and hundreds of criminals.

Of course, you did admit they can't cover everything. But hey, they're covering something? So why even bother trying to prevent more of them? I'll go back to your beautiful logic of, "It'll only happen anyway." Shoot. No need for EITHER Spider-Man or Daredevil.

And I never said that these are problems only superhumans can solve. I'm just saying MANY more of these can be prevented WITH superhuman response.

SHIELD is espionage, and basically doesn't even have the jurisdiction. The Registration presents a force that could help lessen these things. Make their jobs easier? Yes, it would in a way, AND prevent or stop many MANY more crimes.

Wait a minute, this makes no sense. If the holding facilities for supervillains are defunct, then that is the responsibility of the government. Not the superheroes. A "better penal system" is what SHIELD and the military are paid to implement in the first place. What the hell does that have to do with heroes who are out there stopping crime and catching villains? That's not their responsibility. When Spider-Man catches the Scorpion and sends him over to whatever government-implemented superhuman detention facility is around this week, and then the Scorpion escapes from that facility, how the hell is it Spider-Man's fault?

Makes perfect sense. You just don't think hero's should continually be responsible for super villans that you want them to take care of all alone.

Of course it's not their problem. They should NEVER actually go that extra step to make sure these villans with all these apocalyptic powers actually REMAIN behind bars.

You basically said it yourself, superhumans are the best way to manage other superhumans. If they weren't, then ALL superhumans should be outlawed, because then they're basically unnecessary to the world.


If SHIELD has the capacity to hunt down superheroes in the first place, they have a way to keep supervillains from busting out of jail. In fact, they do; villains like the Green Goblin and most of the ones seen in the first issue of New Avengers were kept under heavily armed, superhuman-proof watch. And, as seen in She-Hulk, there are several prisons in which supervillains are transformed by Pym particles into tiny, harmless versions of themselves. So yes, there were lots of superheroes working with the government, even before this registration act, to ensure that supervillains remain locked up.

Want to know the huge difference between hero's and villans. I'll let you in on that little itty bitty secret. Come closer. Hero's are PUBLIC. They're out, everyday, going out and about. How hard is it for a big security facility to track down someone who's on the news at the moment they're LOOKING for them?

And again, most of the facilities do NOT seem to work. So, the hero's, having all this technology and power SHOULDN'T decide to help find a way to actually contain villans better? Sounds like a double standard to me.

"You keep putting these super powerful villans that have the potential to destroy entire cities, change shape, eat souls, and such into our technologically inferior prisons with your obviously competent advanced technology."


And you're forgetting about the more powerful villans. Hell, the Void ALONE presents a bigger threat than any cage could contain.

And, of course, Pym particles wear off. Villans with energy powers still work, quite well. And, of course, they have friends on the outside that would like them out. Very powerful friends. But hey, it's the governments job to figure out a way to defend themselves from these threats that usually only people like the Avengers can deal with. Because it's not the hero's jobs.

[LouFerignoDemon]

You know damn well that's not what I was implying. Good job on trying to deflect the real situation, though.

Didn't have to imply it. Implying means I'd have to think about what you were saying. You did everything SHORT of saying it. What DID you imply then? Because here is what it said to me: "There's zero way of preventing these situations, why try? Better training, strategy, and information aren't going to help." And I don't have to deflect the situation. You read on obviously, I addressed it.




I mean that mistakes are always going to happen and therefore it's even more vital and important to confront the right mistakes and not overreact stupidly and blindly and exaggeratedly. Stamford was a horrible tragedy that should never happen again, but conducting a nationwide witch-hunt of heroes who have fought and died for the country is an asinine way of doing fixing it, disrupting a system of vigilantism that has worked very well throughout the history of the country.[quote=BrianWilly]

Apparently these huge destructive mistakes aren't the "vital" or "important" ones to confront? Totally forgetting that the government has been trying unsuccessfully to feed and clothe everybody for reasons totally beyond their absolute control.

Hell, sacrifice people simply to continue unsuccessfully to feed and clothe everybody? I love it!

You say it's overreaction? How is it an overreaction? I keep asking for an example of how it's a BAD thing. How registration will actually BE worse. But you, like others, keep NOT providing it. You guys keep saying, "It's immoral. They're human. It's an overreaction." But nobody keeps saying HOW. They say the government has bigger things to worry about. What? What could POSSIBLY be bigger than the preservation of human life that is THEIR job to defend?

And a "witch hunt"? They're asking hero's to register and get training to BETTER do the job they're ALREADY doing. To assemble teams and training sessions that'll allow all heros to be a ton more versatile.

Hell, THIS goes with your maybe pile.

Maybe the hero, single handedly, in a situation against a villan much more powerful than they are, will win. Maybe not. You know what the people would rather see? An effective response, not watching on as Spider-Man is almost killed by the Sandman, and the only thing that saves him are a couple of mutants with holowatches that distracted Sandman JUST long enough to Spider-Man to figure out a way to defeat him.

[quote=BrianWilly]They should "try" to be more sensible and not persecute every superhero based on the actions of a few. To persecute all on the basis of a few is called discrimination, the last time I checked, and also the last time I checked there were laws in this country ensuring that you are innocent until proven guilty. In the process of "trying," are we going to treat every guilty until proven innocent? If not, then how long until we do, since...y'know...we always need to keep "trying?"

You know what? Those few show the potential of the whole. That's what they do. If THEY can make mistakes and get hundreds killed, ANY Of them can. That's the whole damn point.

And innocent until proven guilty is FAR from the actual practice. Innocent until proven guilty works with people that have no feelings or intuition. Plus, you're putting this in the hands of humans, and you're already saying that they're inadequate, though they made that whole rule and such. They're inadequate, out of date, the lower end of the chain of thought.

Because by the logic you're running by, cops shouldn't arrest people holding up the 7-11, because they haven't been tried by a jury of their peers yet.

OR, you could go by they caught the person in the act, and can work on THAT information.

There needs to be moral and obvious limits as to just how much we're going to "try" to fix a problem, especially one like the existence of superheroes that doesn't need fixing. Just how far are you willing to go? Just how many rights get trampled along the way? Just how far is too far to "try" before you're just being unreasonable?

Doesn't NEED fixing? Doesn't need fixing wouldn't have given RISE to this problem in the first place. Teams like Young Avengers, New Warriors, and such CAUSE problems. They're super hero's too last time I checked.

And someone said that your rights end when they impede someone elses.

So apparently, superhumans get BETTER rights than everybody else now?

That's why they're putting this law in, to EQUALIZE them. Not to discriminate, discriminate, discriminate. But to put them to a point where they're just as responsible as any other American.

Show me some evidence. I don't believe that Stamford is the only incident of superhumans ever using bad judgment which resulted in tragedy, but it sure as hell is the only one of its magnitude. Show me otherwise.

Oh hey, how about Spider-Man hearing a store alarm, and he just SWINGS in. Sure, there's a gunman in there. A tense situation, gunman, someone just jumping in.... Sounds like a powderkeg to me. How about a huge explosion in a factory? Swing in, my friend, swing in. Hulk's attacking? I have an idea! Flat out attack him in a big public area. You notice how MOST hero's opt to flat out attack people in the middle of big public areas, when they could EASILY take them to much LESS populated areas? Most villans, especially on the street level, are only robbing stores, and bruising people. The moment hero's get involved, it turns into FIGHTS in said store, and people get to die.

Whether it's one or one hundred, it's still human life. And if there's a way to preserve it, people will say it should happen.

As for one of it's magnitude? I believe someone in your country said it best about terrorist attacks: It wasn't a matter of IF an event of that magnitude will happen again, but WHEN if something isn't changed to prevent it, because it can obviously happen now.

I said that laws should not be passed based on blind emotion as opposed to solid fact. That goes for heroes and otherwise. I have no idea where in the world you thought I said that superhumans have some sort of right where regular people don't.

Because you keep saying superhumans should be able to continue as they wish. If a regular person took up a crowbar, unmasked, and put some guy into the hospital down the street for running a drug house, do you think the cops would say, "Thanks man, here's your key to the city"? No, they arrest the idiot. But not superheros. Apparently they're immune to the law. Hence, you want them to have a right nobody else has.

And things like this law, as someone pointed out, have been brought up in the past with Marvel comics. And it's not like Stamford is the only event where people died because of a lack of superhuman effectiveness.

Unfortunately, things like this should've been thought about in the past, but only huge events FORCE them to happen. Take your 9/11 for example. Did you know planes aren't suppossed to fly over the Pentagon? It's restricted airspace. Yet it happened ANYWAY. And due to lack of unpreparedness, people died. The people were going to die on that plane anyway, but was there a way to make sure fewer people died? Sure. By making sure there was a response to that. There was, it wasn't conducted, and people died because of it. That was a lapse on the government's part, but it still serves to show what happens when there is a possibility of prevention, and it's not taken. More people had to die.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Since I've only been flipping through CW on the rack, and refuse to support it monetarily, what is the EXACT purpose of the SHRA? Just to register people's civilian IDs, or are they required to serve the government like they are in the military?

The details of the SHRA aren't exactly totally revealed. What they're implied to be is that the hero's register their identities with the government, recieve training, and basically get held accountable for their actions from there on out.

Hard to sue Spider-Man for busting your only ride to work, causing you to lose your job, and making the state take away your children, simply because nobody knows who he is, even though it's still his fault.

They want to make hero's more effective in their jobs. They want hero's to be able to make good, sound judgements that aren't off the fly, and have the abilities necessary to prevent loss of human life and destruction.

But it's also implied that becoming a hero is their new job, and that they'll be operated like a Police Department. Where they will most likely be on patrols, be part of specialty teams, and be on call for bigger events. And apparently, people think that's a bad thing that hero's should be trained, licensed, and held accountable like everybody else.

[Vanguard07]

Basically to me this whole argument boils down to the individual vs the group.

The pro-reg people arent willing to trust individuals with the power they wield. That kinda makes sense to me and in a way I can kinda support that.
however trusting the government doesnt make any more sense. Putting a government in charge of controlling these individuals makes less sense to me.
A group is only as strong, as smart, as brave, as trustworthy etc as it's weakest member. how can you trust a system run by the white male who was able to buy the most influence rather than a system where the most qualified person gets the job?

the government is a very dangerous thing only held in check by the individuals that make up the country's population. Individuals will always be the counterbalance to the government. This type of law that takes away the individuals right to make a difference. Instead it forces them to operate ONLY within government supervised channels.

This whole idea of the registration act is basically having the government assimilate those individuals and making the government all that much more dangerous.

I dont trust groups. The bigger the group the less trustworthy it is to me. Especially when it's as prone to corruption and incompetence as the MU US government is.

I'd much prefer the balance that they've always had to be maintained.
Taking freedom away from individuals because they are capable of something is NOT the right thing to do.

ANY individual is capable of a great deal of good OR a great deal of harm be they super powered or otherwise. No matter how much harm they're capable of I'd rather have them deciding what to do with their abilities than have them told by what's basically nothing more than a somewhat organized mob.

You guys can trust groups if you want. Put your faith in the mob mentality, see where it takes you.
Personally I'd rather not.

[Shadowknight]

After all of this arguing, screw this; I'm moving to Latveria.

Again, my biggest concern is that if someone gets his hands on the list of identities in the SHIELD computers, it could lead to the Green Goblin having sex with every heroes girlfriend (or even boyfriend!)* Look at posts 63, 69, and 72 for the worst case scenario involving Osborne: http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7694203#post7694203


*Before anyone else brings up the "putting loved ones in danger if the IDs are found out, blah blah, I'm just scared about more stories of the Green Goblin doing booty calls.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Basically to me this whole argument boils down to the individual vs the group.

The pro-reg people arent willing to trust individuals with the power they wield. That kinda makes sense to me and in a way I can kinda support that.
however trusting the government doesnt make any more sense. Putting a government in charge of controlling these individuals makes less sense to me.
A group is only as strong, as smart, as brave, as trustworthy etc as it's weakest member. how can you trust a system run by the white male who was able to buy the most influence rather than a system where the most qualified person gets the job?

the government is a very dangerous thing only held in check by the individuals that make up the country's population. Individuals will always be the counterbalance to the government. This type of law that takes away the individuals right to make a difference. Instead it forces them to operate ONLY within government supervised channels.

This whole idea of the registration act is basically having the government assimilate those individuals and making the government all that much more dangerous.

I dont trust groups. The bigger the group the less trustworthy it is to me. Especially when it's as prone to corruption and incompetence as the MU US government is.

I'd much prefer the balance that they've always had to be maintained.
Taking freedom away from individuals because they are capable of something is NOT the right thing to do.

ANY individual is capable of a great deal of good OR a great deal of harm be they super powered or otherwise. No matter how much harm they're capable of I'd rather have them deciding what to do with their abilities than have them told by what's basically nothing more than a somewhat organized mob.

You guys can trust groups if you want. Put your faith in the mob mentality, see where it takes you.
Personally I'd rather not.

I can see what you mean and feel. In truth, I can even empathize with it.

However, the government is there to protect it's people, and for the most part, it has. Hero's protect people too, this I won't deny. But to the ordinary people of the MU, the only people that are even half way open with them is their government. Hero's are shut off tight to them. They have no way of knowing anything about the one's who don't choose to unmask. They're basically these people with incredible powers that do what they want. And what if they decide that someday, they want to rule America? What can stop them? They don't know. They have no information. No way of asking family members or friends of the hero what might be wrong, what might be rectified. They only know they have this mysterious juggernaut of power destroying things.


I won't comment about the "white guy" thing, as I'm so tired of hearing that. But I will say that a team isn't only as corrupt as it's weakest member. People think Iron Man is corrupt. He was their second strongest member, and easily the smartest.

The government only wants to create a department where the hero's can basically do their job better than before.

And nobody is trying to take away the "freedom" of people simply because they have it. But because of what they DO with it. Firestar retired. Nobody will be going after her since she's not going to deal with it anymore. People who excercize their freedom to choose being a superhero are only being asked to register.

And the "balance of power" is always spouted by people who's countries military is basically feared by the entire world. The Middle East's technology and weaponry is basically balanced, seeing how they all use older Russian weapons for the most part. And they're ALWAYS in conflict with each other. The balance of power simply doesn't work. To have a group that can respond to virtually any threat and situation works far better than some balance. Because, in order for that balance to be maintained, people have to die.

I can see what you mean the individual has a great potential for good and bad, and you're easily right. But it's easier to keep those with the more unbalanced potentials in check.

[LouFerignoDemon]

After all of this arguing, screw this; I'm moving to Latveria.

Again, my biggest concern is that if someone gets his hands on the list of identities in the SHIELD computers, it could lead to the Green Goblin having sex with every heroes girlfriend (or even boyfriend!)* Look at posts 63, 69, and 72 for the worst case scenario involving Osborne: http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7694203#post7694203


*Before anyone else brings up the "putting loved ones in danger if the IDs are found out, blah blah, I'm just scared about more stories of the Green Goblin doing booty calls.


I'm pretty sure I covered this. You'd think SHIELD would be able to protect themselves from a villan with the technical knowledge of a high schooler. Especially with the new superhuman tech upgrade.

Plus, there's plenty of more ways for a hero's identity to be found out. It's happened so many times, it's ridiculous.

In fact, if knowledge about their identities get out, and they're aware of this (as they'd obviously be), they'd be much more capable of being capable of protecting their families from the villans that are sure to attack.

[Shadowknight]

In fact, if knowledge about their identities get out, and they're aware of this (as they'd obviously be), they'd be much more capable of being capable of protecting their families from the villans that are sure to attack.

You're missing the point.

MORE GOBLIN SEX.

Green Goblin. Having sex. With all of the significant others in the Marvel universe.

Do you want to see that?! DO YOU?!

On a more serious not, chill. The whole thing is a joke. It's bashing Sins Past. I mean, really, in a serious convo. when I make a point of obsessing over the Green Goblin seducing (not raping or killing) anyone from the Prowler's wife to the Wasp's current boyfriend?

[LouFerignoDemon]

You're missing the point.

MORE GOBLIN SEX.

Green Goblin. Having sex. With all of the significant others in the Marvel universe.

Do you want to see that?! DO YOU?!

On a more serious not, chill. The whole thing is a joke. It's bashing Sins Past. I mean, really, in a serious convo. when I make a point of obsessing over the Green Goblin seducing (not raping or killing) anyone from the Prowler's wife to the Wasp's current boyfriend?


lol Though, if there were a team, they could pound the Goblin and incarcerate him in the prison being built by Reed and Stark. And anything built by them is definitely going to be better than anything else others could build. And then he could have fun with the other prisoners. Plenty of sex could be found there.

And I'd be more than willing to calm down when people actually stop thinking that, "An untrained hero is just as good, if not better, than a trained one with an entire team to help support them."

[Vanguard07]

I can see what you mean and feel. In truth, I can even empathize with it.

However, the government is there to protect it's people, and for the most part, it has. Hero's protect people too, this I won't deny. But to the ordinary people of the MU, the only people that are even half way open with them is their government. Hero's are shut off tight to them. They have no way of knowing anything about the one's who don't choose to unmask. They're basically these people with incredible powers that do what they want. And what if they decide that someday, they want to rule America? What can stop them? They don't know. They have no information. No way of asking family members or friends of the hero what might be wrong, what might be rectified. They only know they have this mysterious juggernaut of power destroying things.



What if the government decided one day to take away everyone's freedoms and put a camera in every room in America?
It's a what-if? and it's an actually MORE plausible one than masked superheroes conquering the world. Like i said it comes down to whether you trust the government more than the individual.

Dont believe that it's more plausible? Well It'd be a little tricky to organise a super-hero takeover seeing as how they're individuals not a group. If any ONE individual happened to decide he or she wanted to rule then there would always be others to stop them. Cause they're individuals. If they all grouped together somehow and collectively decided that they wanted to rule well then they'd rule. And you know what you'd have then? the exact same thing you've got now. Just a government.
The only difference would be the names of the people in charge.

Not a favorable scenario i'll agree but is it any worse than the civil war that the country's already divided itself into? A hundred years after the masked heroes theoretically took over do you think the people would be any worse off than they would ruled by the current system? they'd still have a body of people governing them. More qualified people actually when you consider their abilities to effect change.

[Shadowknight]

lol Though, if there were a team, they could pound the Goblin and incarcerate him in the prison being built by Reed and Stark. And anything built by them is definitely going to be better than anything else others could build. And then he could have fun with the other prisoners. Plenty of sex could be found there.
This is true. According to Spider-man: Marvel Knights Electro already found this out and liked it.

And I'd be more than willing to calm down when people actually stop thinking that, "An untrained hero is just as good, if not better, than a trained one with an entire team to help support them".
I think in the worse case scenario with the Goblin having sex with the Marvel Universe, to be on the safe side, the heroes and their family/friends should get sex training from porn stars. Just in case, they can also practice group sex in case they ever have to deal with a "full frontal" attack from Norman. At the very least, this will give the heroes experience in a new field if they ever decide to switch jobs.

[LouFerignoDemon]

What if the government decided one day to take away everyone's freedoms and put a camera in every room in America?
It's a what-if? and it's an actually MORE plausible one than masked superheroes conquering the world. Like i said it comes down to whether you trust the government more than the individual.

Dont believe that it's more plausible? Well It'd be a little tricky to organise a super-hero takeover seeing as how they're individuals not a group. If any ONE individual happened to decide he or she wanted to rule then there would always be others to stop them. Cause they're individuals. If they all grouped together somehow and collectively decided that they wanted to rule well then they'd rule. And you know what you'd have then? the exact same thing you've got now. Just a government.
The only difference would be the names of the people in charge.

Not a favorable scenario i'll agree but is it any worse than the civil war that the country's already divided itself into? A hundred years after the masked heroes theoretically took over do you think the people would be any worse off than they would ruled by the current system? they'd still have a body of people governing them. More qualified people actually when you consider their abilities to effect change.

Trust the individual? Individuals are kings and tyrants, doing everything THEY want to do. Hitler was an individual. Stalin was an individual. A democracy is a many.

And you're really getting overparanoid with the camera's on every corner. They want hero's to be responsible, that's it.


As a group, superhero's are far more effective. And I had already proven how a broken up superhero society could fall to Iron Man alone. But seeing how the superhumans would be governed over by a group, and decided by a group, how would they be able to organize against a government?

[villejo]

Didn't have to imply it. Implying means I'd have to think about what you were saying. You did everything SHORT of saying it. What DID you imply then? Because here is what it said to me: "There's zero way of preventing these situations, why try? Better training, strategy, and information aren't going to help." And I don't have to deflect the situation. You read on obviously, I addressed it.




[quote=BrianWilly]I mean that mistakes are always going to happen and therefore it's even more vital and important to confront the right mistakes and not overreact stupidly and blindly and exaggeratedly. Stamford was a horrible tragedy that should never happen again, but conducting a nationwide witch-hunt of heroes who have fought and died for the country is an asinine way of doing fixing it, disrupting a system of vigilantism that has worked very well throughout the history of the country.[quote=BrianWilly]

Apparently these huge destructive mistakes aren't the "vital" or "important" ones to confront? Totally forgetting that the government has been trying unsuccessfully to feed and clothe everybody for reasons totally beyond their absolute control.

Hell, sacrifice people simply to continue unsuccessfully to feed and clothe everybody? I love it!

You say it's overreaction? How is it an overreaction? I keep asking for an example of how it's a BAD thing. How registration will actually BE worse. But you, like others, keep NOT providing it. You guys keep saying, "It's immoral. They're human. It's an overreaction." But nobody keeps saying HOW. They say the government has bigger things to worry about. What? What could POSSIBLY be bigger than the preservation of human life that is THEIR job to defend?

And a "witch hunt"? They're asking hero's to register and get training to BETTER do the job they're ALREADY doing. To assemble teams and training sessions that'll allow all heros to be a ton more versatile.

Hell, THIS goes with your maybe pile.

Maybe the hero, single handedly, in a situation against a villan much more powerful than they are, will win. Maybe not. You know what the people would rather see? An effective response, not watching on as Spider-Man is almost killed by the Sandman, and the only thing that saves him are a couple of mutants with holowatches that distracted Sandman JUST long enough to Spider-Man to figure out a way to defeat him.



You know what? Those few show the potential of the whole. That's what they do. If THEY can make mistakes and get hundreds killed, ANY Of them can. That's the whole damn point.

And innocent until proven guilty is FAR from the actual practice. Innocent until proven guilty works with people that have no feelings or intuition. Plus, you're putting this in the hands of humans, and you're already saying that they're inadequate, though they made that whole rule and such. They're inadequate, out of date, the lower end of the chain of thought.

Because by the logic you're running by, cops shouldn't arrest people holding up the 7-11, because they haven't been tried by a jury of their peers yet.

OR, you could go by they caught the person in the act, and can work on THAT information.



Doesn't NEED fixing? Doesn't need fixing wouldn't have given RISE to this problem in the first place. Teams like Young Avengers, New Warriors, and such CAUSE problems. They're super hero's too last time I checked.

And someone said that your rights end when they impede someone elses.

So apparently, superhumans get BETTER rights than everybody else now?

That's why they're putting this law in, to EQUALIZE them. Not to discriminate, discriminate, discriminate. But to put them to a point where they're just as responsible as any other American.



Oh hey, how about Spider-Man hearing a store alarm, and he just SWINGS in. Sure, there's a gunman in there. A tense situation, gunman, someone just jumping in.... Sounds like a powderkeg to me. How about a huge explosion in a factory? Swing in, my friend, swing in. Hulk's attacking? I have an idea! Flat out attack him in a big public area. You notice how MOST hero's opt to flat out attack people in the middle of big public areas, when they could EASILY take them to much LESS populated areas? Most villans, especially on the street level, are only robbing stores, and bruising people. The moment hero's get involved, it turns into FIGHTS in said store, and people get to die.

Whether it's one or one hundred, it's still human life. And if there's a way to preserve it, people will say it should happen.

As for one of it's magnitude? I believe someone in your country said it best about terrorist attacks: It wasn't a matter of IF an event of that magnitude will happen again, but WHEN if something isn't changed to prevent it, because it can obviously happen now.



Because you keep saying superhumans should be able to continue as they wish. If a regular person took up a crowbar, unmasked, and put some guy into the hospital down the street for running a drug house, do you think the cops would say, "Thanks man, here's your key to the city"? No, they arrest the idiot. But not superheros. Apparently they're immune to the law. Hence, you want them to have a right nobody else has.

And things like this law, as someone pointed out, have been brought up in the past with Marvel comics. And it's not like Stamford is the only event where people died because of a lack of superhuman effectiveness.

Unfortunately, things like this should've been thought about in the past, but only huge events FORCE them to happen. Take your 9/11 for example. Did you know planes aren't suppossed to fly over the Pentagon? It's restricted airspace. Yet it happened ANYWAY. And due to lack of unpreparedness, people died. The people were going to die on that plane anyway, but was there a way to make sure fewer people died? Sure. By making sure there was a response to that. There was, it wasn't conducted, and people died because of it. That was a lapse on the government's part, but it still serves to show what happens when there is a possibility of prevention, and it's not taken. More people had to die.

This law isn't for equalization, it's for CONTROL!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are you crazy? They don't like the variables that heroes represent, so they're going to put them on the payroll. Cap is actually is championing the right course, heroes are outside of the system, and help bring balance. They're the yin to Shields yang, and you can't just combine them.

[The Geek Vault]

I support points on both sides. Captain America didn't have to put that electro shock thing on Iron man he could have just talked to him. But Spider-man didn't have to Tranq wiccan and cloak either (It made me mad he couldn't just tranq them with one each instead of nailing them with like 17 each) Iron man is right in the way that maybe after this big event they should give there identities to shield. But I don't think the public has to know and they do not have to go hunting down old friends. Captain however Does not have to start a war, it seems like he's the one who wants to fight more than Iron man. There's a quote from MIB or MIB2 "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it." see that is why the identities should not be known

[The Leaguer]

Iron Man is a 'tard, and thus inherently wrong.

[BrianWilly]

What the people want is a highly effective team, formed of members that could respond to the big events in the most efficient way to resolve it rather quickly, and with as little destruction and casualties as possible. The Avengers are a general response team at best. Better teams can be formed for varying events. And I never said I didn't want the Avengers. That was you taking my words out of context.How does the Avengers being registered members of the government suddenly make them able to take out Kang more efficiently, with less damage, than if they weren't registered members of the government?

In situations like that, the Avengers are the professionals. What exactly do we have to gain from forcing government integration and not just participation? You're just creating problems where there weren't any beforehand.

Or, you could have a superhuman team that doesn't just worry about the big things. A team big enough that can solve MORE problems. Hostage situation? Speedster or telepath. Or we can leave it to the cops, and hope that nobody has to die.Again I ask, how in the world does registration all of a sudden solve these problems? All you're doing is forcing heroes to work with the government...which they already did anyway. You don't all of a sudden have more heroes to work with. If you register a bunch a heroes who weren't registered before, all you end up with is registered heroes. They don't suddenly multiply into many teams and solve your little resource problem.

Perhaps they become more efficient, but that's assuming that they weren't efficient before...which is a pretty big assumption to make based on a total evidence of nothing.

Burglaries? Yep. Spider-Man takes care of EACH and EVERY one going on in New York. The hundreds that happen every hour. He's so unbelievably f'ing fast and efficient. Why have cops at all? Spidey can take care of ALL of them. See where that analysis kind of dies? There's only ONE Spider-Man, and hundreds of criminals.

Of course, you did admit they can't cover everything. But hey, they're covering something? So why even bother trying to prevent more of them? I'll go back to your beautiful logic of, "It'll only happen anyway." Shoot. No need for EITHER Spider-Man or Daredevil.No one can be everywhere at once. Not even Superman. That's not going to change just because you force a bunch of superheroes into a government program. It's not a matter of "it'll only happen anyway." It's a matter of picking at a scab thinking it'll heal that way and going about the problem completely the wrong way. You want more efficiency, more heroes, more help, and the world simply doesn't work that way.

You'll brazenly accuse people of having far too romanticized perceptions of superheroes -- on a comic book board?? HOW BIZARRE!!!!! -- and yet your own point of view is unrealistically cynical and bitter. These are people who volunteer their lives and risk it all day after day and ask for no reward, they've fought and died to protect every single person on planet, they've lost loved ones and homes and everything they hold dear, they save untold amount of lives and property when no one asked them to...and, according to you, that's just not enough, damn it, and they should be ashamed of themselves for thinking so. They should be doing far more, or else they're just being arrogant and prideful. It's their responsibility. And the only reason they haven't done so must be because they don't want to. And if they don't want to save more people, which must be the case, well, we'll just have to force them to. With laws.

And I never said that these are problems only superhumans can solve. I'm just saying MANY more of these can be prevented WITH superhuman response.Superhumans do respond to those problems. They're just not doing it in the way that makes you happy.

Makes perfect sense. You just don't think hero's should continually be responsible for super villans that you want them to take care of all alone.

Of course it's not their problem. They should NEVER actually go that extra step to make sure these villans with all these apocalyptic powers actually REMAIN behind bars.If they want to go that extra step, then it should be their choice. You seem to forget that superheroes were a volunteer force in the first place. If they want to focus their efforts on public protection, then that's their voluntary choice. If they want to direct their attention elsewhere and maybe sign on as prison wardens, then that's their voluntary perogative.

On that note, if Spider-Man becomes a guard a Riker's, then who's out there stopping the burglaries? I thought you said that we should be forcing them to do everything in their power to stop every crime in every possible location. Just because you want Spidey to stop burglars and guard supervillains prisons doesn't mean that there's all of a sudden going to be two Spider-Men. Or is this just another instance where you want to have it both ways? See above re: you can't.

In any case, what you're talking about sounds dangerously like forcing heroes to do something that they should do just because they can. Well, damn, everyone has the potential to do something that needs to be done, not just heroes. In our real world, we are notably short on prison facilities too. Why don't we just go ahead and draft every able-bodied man and woman we can to fill up that needed quota? We need them, and they have the power to do it, so it should be their moral obligation. But of course, it's not their problem is it? Ordinary people should never go that extra step. You want superheroes to have the same rights as normal humans? Then you should turn that critical eye of yours on everyone and view them all merely as tools to further whatever agenda you want. 'Cause it's necessary, right?

I'll tell you why we don't do this, it's because we don't live in a damned fascist state. The more you talk about this plan of yours for the new Marvel order, the more it sounds like a conscription for a aggressive totalitarian lifestyle. The ends justify the means. Looking at people as tools instead of as people. They could do it, therefore they should. And if they don't, well, then they're just being whiney bad arrogant people. Blurring the lines between hero and villain, that's what this is all about.

Want to know the huge difference between hero's and villans. I'll let you in on that little itty bitty secret. Come closer. Hero's are PUBLIC. They're out, everyday, going out and about. How hard is it for a big security facility to track down someone who's on the news at the moment they're LOOKING for them?Again, big assumptions. Supervillains are as brightly colored and appear on television as much, if not more, than regular heroes. They perform their deeds in broad daylight, robbing banks, kidnapping everyone; if they didn't want to be seen and visible, they wouldn't be wearing those costumes. That goes for everyone involved.

Nick Fury was able to find out Spider-Man's secret identity -- fairly easily, he mentioned -- by sweat samples. The idea that the top espionage program on the damn planet can't keep track of some supervillains is complete bullsht. Again I reiterate, that should be their job, instead of constantly trying to find ways to interfere with superheroes.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Same crap, Round (insert number of anti-registration posts plus one)

How does the Avengers being registered members of the government suddenly make them able to take out Kang more efficiently, with less damage, than if they weren't registered members of the government?

This one is so blatantly simply, I shouldn't HAVE to say it. But you ask, and so I respond.

We'll use the two check system. We do one thing one way, then the same thing another. For my examples, I will use Kang, the Hulk, and Doctor Octopus. In my two examples, we'll do things first the unregistered way, and in the second we will do things the registered way, marked as A and B.

Kang A (location Santa Fe, New Mexico): Kang attacks, wanting a NEW empire. Kang, being as smart as he is, might decide to try this in a new place such as the unhero'd Santa Fe. And this is where he starts his assault. Okay, at first, it's probably just considered terrorrism, and the national guard is alerted. Thirty minutes later, word ACTUALLY gets out it's Kang from the future, and the military is having little to no effect. AVENGERS ASSEMBLE!! After they see it on TV, or the president, or SHIELD contacts them, it's not like there's a number to call someone to let them know that Kang's attacking before hand. The police basically get said call, and they're busy trying to contain Kang. Well... The guy's in New Mexico. They get in their Quinjet, and unless that thing moves 100 times the speed of sound, we're talking at LEAST and hour and a half before they can get there. Well, Kang's been there for that time on the warpath. You think he minds killing people? If you do, then you'd be dead wrong. As dead wrong as those people are DEAD. Avengers get out there, sans the Sentry since he NEVER seems to be with them. Iron Man, Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Luke Cage, Captain America, and Ronin (if she decides to show up again), and Wolverine. Kang's tangled with these people before, and knows about them regardless. Immediately Spider-Woman is killed as well as Ronin by his heavy wide spray assault, which causes the other hero's to separate. He drops those guns, and pulls out a trap gun. Wolverine is down, Kang knows he can't kill him right off, so he'll have to wait. Back to heavier energy assault weapons. Luke Cage only needs to be heated up to heavy temperatures to die. Large energy weapons provide said heat energy. Cage's brain is fried by some form of futuristic magma launcher or something. Captain America isn't as fast as bullets or energy guns, so he's basically slowly proceeding, as Spider-Man is also in that same problem. Iron Man's armor is the greatest weapon they have, but even THAT has limits. Especially against weapons that come from hundreds of years from his time. This is where they actually call Sentry as an emergency measure. Sentry goes out immediately after the call about 15 minutes into the fight, and actually stops Kang So...two hours and fifteen minutes have passed from the initial attack. I think New Mexico requires a new captial now.

Kang B (location Santa Fe): Kang attacks, immediately the special number calling a super human response network is called, probably before that person is killed. Maybe the name Kang is mentioned, I'll assume it's not. Well, there IS a large supervillan attack, so a team is assembled. The members aren't important at the moment. Getting there? No problem. Teleporters decided to register, and so, they TAKE them out there instantly. So ten minutes tops to get out there. They can confront Kang before the underpowered national guard even GET there. Let's say now that the team is incorrect, or inefficient. They contact the network, alert to the villan, and if a new lineup is necessary, the teams can be switched or modified as needed. So, I'll be extremely generous, and say the now localized battle with Kang only takes 45 minutes now. Better than the hour and a half more, and an entire destroyed city that would have been before. Preventable? Hell no. Containable? Obviously.

Hulk A: Hulk doesn't attack big things. He gets pissed and attacks randomly. Who are the street heros? Spider-Man, Daredevil, and on occassion, Black Cat. And Cardiac. None of which will most likely be around the Hulk during his assault. They'll hear about it on the radio, television, or by people screaming. The Avengers sit up in their tower, like I said, and just WAIT to be told there's a problem, since they more or less don't pay too much attention to the world it seems. Don't think they do? How many Hulk attacks have their been in New York that the Avengers never responded to? A few at least. Anyways, so Spider-Man is caught up fighting the Hulk. I say Spider-Man because he's the only one who can even slow him down. But really, it's Spider-Man just trying to stay alive as Hulk picks up things and throw it at him. But guess what? Spider-Man dodges. Does the car go away? No. It lands. And most likely, into another street where people are still scrambling in a panic to get away from the situation. Cars probably land on people. And since they're not superhuman, a ton can crush them. Most mid size cars weigh more than a ton. Eventually, the Avengers DO notice, because someone flips on the TV, or SHIELD tells them, or they see a car going through the air. Avengers Assemble. A team which, without Sentry, isn't going to be that effective against the Hulk. With the Sentry, the Hulk can be controlled as soon as the Avengers get there. Which is about half an hour later as it seems most likely that this is when they get information.

Hulk B: A person calls about the Hulk. They send the Sentry to contain him. There's actually a good chance that the Hulk doesn't even have to pick up a car yet. Problem solved.

In situations like that, the Avengers are the professionals. What exactly do we have to gain from forcing government integration and not just participation? You're just creating problems where there weren't any beforehand.

I DID state how the Avengers are currently just a mismatched team that really can't take down general problems, right? No? Well. The Avengers are mismatched and basically useless against beings like Kang, Ultron, and even Apocalypse. All of which may attack New York given the fact there's nothing to look out for these guys.

Wait? There's a planned response you say? Made of teams that are specificially designed to respond to these threats you say? Can't have that, that will cut down damage, time, and life loss. Hero's do a good enough job grouping together on their own to solve these problems.

Again I ask, how in the world does registration all of a sudden solve these problems? All you're doing is forcing heroes to work with the government...which they already did anyway. You don't all of a sudden have more heroes to work with. If you register a bunch a heroes who weren't registered before, all you end up with is registered heroes. They don't suddenly multiply into many teams and solve your little resource problem.

Seriously dude, if you're not even going to listen and think, just don't argue. I actually listen and ASK for examples to support anti-registration. But this is the same thing I get time after time after time after time.

But you want me to say it again? Sure, again. But seriously, this time, read and think.


Training, planning, and distribution based on scenario response. Teams that are constructed and trained for situations. I mean, random turns OUT okay, but planned works better.

Perhaps they become more efficient, but that's assuming that they weren't efficient before...which is a pretty big assumption to make based on a total evidence of nothing.

Efficient, eh? Didn't I say the Avengers only respond to the big things, Spider-Man is stuck fighting people like Doc Ock and the Rhino as well as Daredevil?

Efficient? Sure. If your idea of efficient goes against the desire to care about the crossfire involved in these fights. They DO get resolved. Sure, they do. But I doubt they get resolved nearly as quickly as a spead out hero response program.

No one can be everywhere at once. Not even Superman. That's not going to change just because you force a bunch of superheroes into a government program. It's not a matter of "it'll only happen anyway." It's a matter of picking at a scab thinking it'll heal that way and going about the problem completely the wrong way. You want more efficiency, more heroes, more help, and the world simply doesn't work that way.

Isn't this one shooting yourself in the foot? NO ONE can be everywhere at once? But only Spider-Man, Daredevil, and maybe three others patrol New York's streets? You know, the burglaries you say they prevent. But if there's five, and at any given time, there's twenty burlaries going on in New York, how is that useful? Especially if they're dealing with a super human fight? Then there's even less devoted to this.

But you keep saying it will only happen anyway. That's what you KEEP saying. It's what you repeatedly tell me, that it will keep happening. Time and time again, you say that it'll happen anyway.

But you know what? Remove the cops from your world. Go on, imagine it.

"Gee pa, ever since we got rid of those cops, crime is at an all time low."

"Well son, that's because there is no such thing as crime anymore. Now get your shotgun, I see that gang coming back down our street for a second run."

OR!!! You can just get one person to patrol an ENTIRE area of the city, give him carpe blanche to do what he wants, and see how crime skyrockets.

I really don't see how it's picking a scab. Beating up Doc Ock, watching him escape only to come back again is picking a scab.

Making sure there's no place for villans to run due to a diligent and effective response actually fixes it.

You'll brazenly accuse people of having far too romanticized perceptions of superheroes -- on a comic book board?? HOW BIZARRE!!!!! -- and yet your own point of view is unrealistically cynical and bitter. These are people who volunteer their lives and risk it all day after day and ask for no reward, they've fought and died to protect every single person on planet, they've lost loved ones and homes and everything they hold dear, they save untold amount of lives and property when no one asked them to...and, according to you, that's just not enough, damn it, and they should be ashamed of themselves for thinking so. They should be doing far more, or else they're just being arrogant and prideful. It's their responsibility. And the only reason they haven't done so must be because they don't want to. And if they don't want to save more people, which must be the case, well, we'll just have to force them to. With laws.

I'd hope that people on this board can use their heads. But alas, no? I am stuck on a comics forum.

So, unrealistic (judging how I compare them to cops continuously) and bitter (seeing how cops actually help solve a problem, where hero's basically use a sprinkle can on a forest fire.) I just don't see it.

So, we'll go with the "not enough" part. I say they don't sacrifice enough? They put their families at risk all the time, as well as their lives, but I don't think they sacrifice enough? I guess you can derive my posts (if you REALLY stretch it, and I do require team effort. Nevermind, teams don't work as well as the individual) to where it seems like I say that. So I'll clear it up now. I think they sacrifice TOO MUCH with their current ways of doing things. They shovel everything on one person's shoulders to do so much, to cover so many villans, that one would wonder why they do heroics at all.

"So then you prove my point. You'll make them sacrifice more, and so they should definitely give up." Figured I'd say it for you so I can stop it now.

No. Not at all. Let's say we have a way of stopping super crime a lot more than what we do now. Let's say that Peter Parker decides that he wants to take his wife to a movie. We'll call the movie "The Dinner Party" for those who might be interested. Oh crap, who is that attacking the building down the street? Could it be? Oh damn, it's the Rhino. Sorry Mary Jane, but Peter Parker is going to spend the next hour battling a ground level Rhino until the cops can take him away. Too bad there isn't an organization, where hero's are actuall on call, or even on patrol, where Peter Parker, instead of ruining his WHOLE night, might only have to ruin fifteen minutes, since he could call hero's on patrol, much more capable of handling the Rhino than he is, stall the Rhino, wait for them, and then go back to his Mary Jane. Wouldn't it be nice? But no. Organizing and efficiency is a bad idea. Better to leave it up to chance and extreme personal sacrifice.

Superhumans do respond to those problems. They're just not doing it in the way that makes you happy.


Make me happy? I could care less. It's not my world, I don't have to worry about those humans. THEY'RE the ones who aren't happy. Personally, as one who occupies much of her time with sciences and such, I can very much appreciate order and structure. Hell, God knows I'd never solve physics problems if I just used random number cultures, rather than a structure and method.

But we'll go back to response, since that IS the point of this little chunk.

Spider-Man learns of his enemies through radio, tv, people screaming, or actually being there when they go down. So that means time, usually ten or so minutes, have to pass. Where the Avengers just stay up in their tower, DD sticks to Hell's Kitchen, and nobody else is even there capable of stopping most of his enemies. So hero's do respond. But it would be comparable to a fire department waiting for the news, radio, screaming or actually being there when the fire starts.

If they want to go that extra step, then it should be their choice. You seem to forget that superheroes were a volunteer force in the first place. If they want to focus their efforts on public protection, then that's their voluntary choice. If they want to direct their attention elsewhere and maybe sign on as prison wardens, then that's their voluntary perogative.

No, superhero's aren't a volunteer force as it stands. The registration offers a volunteer force. YOU seem to forget that one. Because superheros, as they stand, basically throw on a mask, choose when is the most conveninent time that doesn't conflict with their rather busy lives, and do what they think needs to be done. Where registration proposes a structured, efficient FORCE that is always capable of removing problems upon first notice.

On that note, if Spider-Man becomes a guard a Riker's, then who's out there stopping the burglaries? I thought you said that we should be forcing them to do everything in their power to stop every crime in every possible location. Just because you want Spidey to stop burglars and guard supervillains prisons doesn't mean that there's all of a sudden going to be two Spider-Men. Or is this just another instance where you want to have it both ways? See above re: you can't.

This is where thinking comes in handy. That grey mass in your head is there for more than remembering how to read, determine colors, and run your automatic functions.

Spider-Man at Ryker's? First off, it's not even going to be Ryker's. I know I've said this, but alas, people don't even listen (see:read), and just say something like this. It'll be a prison developed by Stark, Reed, and probably a few others. Smartest people in the world, plus some more brains for kicks.

Second off (the point that's even MORE suprising). Spider-Man a patrol guard? What the hell is it with people and just putting useless things in useless places? I don't get it.

Spider-Man isn't even FIT for what you're asking. Sure, there will be superhumans there to patrol their prison, but it'll definitely be someone better than Spider-Man.

But before you post the next hero patrolling at Ryker's, DO keep in mind that it won't be Ryker's, and that people like Stark and Richards will definitely pick someone more fit for the task. (I know I've said this earlier. But I've said this in posts before, so I figure another time wouldn't really hurt.)

In any case, what you're talking about sounds dangerously like forcing heroes to do something that they should do just because they can. Well, damn, everyone has the potential to do something that needs to be done, not just heroes. In our real world, we are notably short on prison facilities too. Why don't we just go ahead and draft every able-bodied man and woman we can to fill up that needed quota? We need them, and they have the power to do it, so it should be their moral obligation. But of course, it's not their problem is it? Ordinary people should never go that extra step. You want superheroes to have the same rights as normal humans? Then you should turn that critical eye of yours on everyone and view them all merely as tools to further whatever agenda you want. 'Cause it's necessary, right?

I DO remember someone saying something about great power and great responsibility. Must've been Punisher, only HE'D say something like that, right? Wait? Spider-Man said that? That with his great power, he should do what it is with that power to help people around him in a responsible manner?

So you bring up draft? Again, it's been said DOZENS of times before, but people STILL just ignore it. I love ignorance, it's the same thought pattern that makes the KKK think they're right about black people being subhuman.

It's not a draft. Never was, never will be, sorry to break your bubble, blah blah blah blah blah, it's a voluntary prospect. Get over it. I apologize that the registration isn't a draft to make your point valid, but it's a voluntary thing. Hero's WANT to be hero's? They register. They don't have to register, they don't have to be heros, they don't have to do anything. Remember Firestar? She QUIT. She made the decision to be a hero or not be one, and they're not knocking down her door to force her to register.

As for a critical eye to the humans? Guess what? I DO turn a critical eye for them. They're the ones responsible for their own actions to. I expect that if they break a law, put someone in unnecessary danger, do something bad, that they actually own up to it. Do I agree when Tony Stark is not arrested after doing something dumb like controlling his armor drunk? Just because he might save lives in the future? No. Cop goes on patrol drunk, and he gets busted. He'll save lives in the future too. But he has proven he'll try it drunk. Decisions, provisions, and discliplines must be made.

[LouFerignoDemon]

I'll tell you why we don't do this, it's because we don't live in a damned fascist state. The more you talk about this plan of yours for the new Marvel order, the more it sounds like a conscription for a aggressive totalitarian lifestyle. The ends justify the means. Looking at people as tools instead of as people. They could do it, therefore they should. And if they don't, well, then they're just being whiney bad arrogant people. Blurring the lines between hero and villain, that's what this is all about.

Fascist? How so is it fascist? Do people who even throw that word around KNOW what it means? You know, like when people use entropy just to make themselves look like they know what they're talking about?

HOW is is fascism? That the government wants the hero's to be responsible, efficient, and equipped to fight the problems that arise against the humans lives is somehow fascism? They're not taking their freedom away, oppressing humans, or creating a centralized control of all business. They're giving the heros a choice of either being better heros, or not being one at all, since it could put peoples lives in danger.

"But they might not put them in danger. The might not is powerful."

To this, I say, do the math and PROVE it to me that in a realistic environment, that the might nots actually have it. Because I guarantee that due to this little event, a LOT more people are going to die in the MU.

Again, big assumptions. Supervillains are as brightly colored and appear on television as much, if not more, than regular heroes. They perform their deeds in broad daylight, robbing banks, kidnapping everyone; if they didn't want to be seen and visible, they wouldn't be wearing those costumes. That goes for everyone involved.

Wrong.

Plain wrong.

Let's compare it. Spider-Man goes swinging freely through the air a lot of the day, where everybody can see him and take pictures of him. Advertises himself tons in the newspaper, and just recently became EXTREMELY public. Daredevil doesn't, admittingly, but he definitely doesn't hide.

Super villans. They usually go out, in a disguises of some sort, and usually don't reveal themselves until they get to their point, and try to operate at street level. Thus, minimizing exposure.

Nick Fury was able to find out Spider-Man's secret identity -- fairly easily, he mentioned -- by sweat samples. The idea that the top espionage program on the damn planet can't keep track of some supervillains is complete bullsht. Again I reiterate, that should be their job, instead of constantly trying to find ways to interfere with superheroes.


You DO know the difference between tracking someone and deriving who someone is through DNA, right? How if someone hasn't been somewhere for days, that you can STILL get their DNA?

I mean, THAT is simple. Not even in the same league of thought and execution. Not even comparable. Some of these villans are genius level, and work with other villans. Or some reside in other countries, or drift from place to place. It's not like they just stay in costume and sit in the park after they're done. Some return to other times or dimensions. It's not THAT simple. Their job is to keep people safe. THAT'S their job. Hero's claim it's their job too. The only difference is that SHIELD tries to commit to the act of prevention, rather than waiting for the problems to happen.

[Grim Goblin]

Ok Gluon, I've got to ask….How long have you been reading comics? Because you wrote some of the stupidest thing I've ever seen.:O


Seriously, you do realize that Stamford only happened to sell the concept of CW and isn't a reflection of the usual super-fights, right? I mean one super-team makes a mistake and suddenly every hero becomes an inexperienced powder keg :confused:

I don't know what's worse, that theory or the hypocrisy you've shown with your arguments. Yeah I said it, hypocrisy! Because you pretty much said that while registered heroes will probably make "mistakes" that can result in the loss of innocent lives, it is still somewhat better than un-registered heroes who will "screw up by rushing into situations without thinking".

And yet the way you described the consequences for both sides under the same situations seemed exactly the same to me. Families will grieve for their loss and the heroes at fault will have to learn from their mistakes and be more careful next time around. The only difference is that un-registered heroes don't need a government official to slap their wrists to get the point. But somehow it seems that you find it more acceptable to accidentaly kill someone if you're sponsored by the government.

Oh, but heroes would be more efficient if they registered you say? they could use teleporters to cut transport time you say...Well lady, this is where suspension of disbelief comes into play because if it were a real and logical world, don't you think that they would already have done it by now? Same thing goes for your Hulk example. If heroes didn't depend on a writer's whim to appear, you really think that they wouldn't act when such a dire thing happens (for example the Avengers DO have high-tech surveillance equipment).

Oh and b.t.w., your 1st Kang example cracked me up. If we followed your logic, Kang would have killed the Avengers on their 2nd encounter. And yet I don't remember it happening that way :p.

But to get back to the topic at hand, so far you've kept on spewing the same textbook bull**** and repeating how heroism is only a romantic notion when we do know that these characters are willing to sacrifice their lives for the greater good and have even done so publicly on occasion.

So don't give me some half-baked notion that people can't trust these heroes because they don't "really" know them because the same thing could apply to any hollywood superstar. I don't personally now Paris Hilton but I've read enough reports of her actions to know she's a ***** same as I don't really know Bono but I know he invests a lot of himself in different causes. So when I see the Avengers holding up a collapsing bridge on tv, it doesn't take a f****** genius IQ to know they're heroes. :mad:

You also keep saying that if heroes are going to follow some laws, they've got to follow EVERY law. That's F****** bull****! they don't have to follow every law because they're not cops! there lies the difference. I'm not saying they should throw away the book, but ask any beat cop who has been on the street for a while and he'll tell you how the system can make their jobs difficult sometimes. Heroes don't HAVE to follow the law to stop criminals but most of them do follow the laws that they can morally justify (and don't start on different moral POVs. Some things are black&white! killing babies for instance, is wrong.PERIOD!).

And despite you saying otherwise, there have been enough cases of the government dealing with super-villains in the past to justify an anti-registration mentality among heroes. Hell, the FBI was ready to deal with the frickin' Kingpin of Crime to get Daredevil's ID, what makes you think they won't deal out secret IDs for something else they might want?

In conclusion, Heroes are not the ****ing newbs you say they are. They are mentally and morally fit to do their jobs. They are the ones with expertise when it comes to fighting super-beings and do not need more training despite what we've been shown recently to accept the premise of a story no matter how entertaining that story is!

[The Leaguer]

Ok Gluon, I've got to ask….How long have you been reading comics? Because you wrote some of the stupidest thing I've ever seen.:O
This is going to be amazing.

[Lactophiliac]

Mistress Gluon why do you think superheroes working for the government are going to be more efficient since when is the government efficient at doing anything?

[LouFerignoDemon]

Ok Gluon, I've got to ask….How long have you been reading comics? Because you wrote some of the stupidest thing I've ever seen.:O

Years, pal. Years. Though the only idiocy is a desperate attempt to really make a shot back at me without any logic or support to your lack of logic here. But shall we go on with my rebuttle? Yes, lets.


Seriously, you do realize that Stamford only happened to sell the concept of CW and isn't a reflection of the usual super-fights, right? I mean one super-team makes a mistake and suddenly every hero becomes an inexperienced powder keg :confused:

Oh, of course. But that doesn't alter the fact these things could've happened in the past. And you're guaranteed for them to happen in the future. Though there have been several issues where hero's look around at their destruction and reflect. I do believe a little mini series called Thor: Bloodoath did just that recently. Didn't read it, or don't remember it? Not suprised.

I don't know what's worse, that theory or the hypocrisy you've shown with your arguments. Yeah I said it, hypocrisy! Because you pretty much said that while registered heroes will probably make "mistakes" that can result in the loss of innocent lives, it is still somewhat better than un-registered heroes who will "screw up by rushing into situations without thinking".


Wow, doesn't THIS just reflect the same crap said over and over again.

*Sigh.* Oh well. I should really just pick up a few of my posts and link them here, but then someone will just say that I lack an answer. Vicious circle, idiocy and repetitive behavior.

Hypocrisy you say? Hypocrisy how? See, like the previous person trying to jab at me, you're not using that pound of gray matter encased in your skull. Your brain. You're not even thinking about it. Not even close. Didn't in any of your other posts with me, and you're obviously not going to start. But hey, I'll say it AGAIN. Hell, this time, I'll even use an example since I have to paint a picture where your logic SHOULD be.


Registered example of Stamford: They locate the threat. Instead of bombarding it head on, causing explosions from a panicked Nitro, they utilize the method (Already in Iron Man's data banks) to detonate Nitro at a lower degree inside of the home at a concussive force at non lethal levels. Nitro, not being all that smart is confused. This is where strike teams move in and tranq him. Problem solved. Damage taken: One home, and possibly a few burns on the enemies. This is of course assuming all the enemies aren't just sitting out in the open for the operatives to tranq initially.

Unregistered response: For kicks, we'll use the Avengers, despite the fact this isn't something they normally do. (Track down villans to their home and take them down before they go out and strike again. Scrap it. If I have to use comic logic, we'll have to switch things.)

Restart: YOUNG Avengers. This seems far more their style. Speed is the first one in. Speed, seeming the stereotypical hothead, will buzz around plummeling people until Nitro realizes he's not going anywhere. Does Nitro care about his teammates? Hell no. Nitro explodes. Stamford accident again. Damage: Same as in CW.

And yet the way you described the consequences for both sides under the same situations seemed exactly the same to me. Families will grieve for their loss and the heroes at fault will have to learn from their mistakes and be more careful next time around. The only difference is that un-registered heroes don't need a government official to slap their wrists to get the point. But somehow it seems that you find it more acceptable to accidentaly kill someone if you're sponsored by the government.

Exactly the same? Duh. Forgot. You're not THINKING. No, like impulsive people, you run with your gut and pride, and let things fit as they will, disagreeing with me no matter what I say or do, simply just because.

See, if hero's DID do that sort of thing, things LIKE the Stamford accident just wouldn't happen. The younger heros have seen older heros make mistakes that cause damage and lives. (Believe it or not, Marvel didn't intend for those buildings to be absolutely empty. To assume otherwise is childish ignorance. But if you're not going to operate in a realistic thought pattern, then no, and everything's fine. But we're going to do it realistically.) Younger heros would take after these examples, and learn, but they don't really seem to. "Oh, but they do, you're wrong and dumb and whine whine whine whine." No, they don't. Sorry. Get over it. If they did, like I said, dumb ass actions like that wouldn't happen. "But that's hypocritical and doesn't make any sense." Think about it before you use a sentence like that, alright?

And while you MIGHT think (I'll assume you do on some level) you don't read and think before you respond. You read, get mad, and respond. (Hey, impulsive charge in without a plan idea!) At least, that's the most LIKELY result. Who knows? Maybe you DO think before. I sure hope that's not your limit though, because the same unthought out crap is OLD, and I'm TIRED OF IT.

Anyways. Back to the whole punishment deal. (Point of paragraph before). This is the whole point OF registration. So hero's CAN be punished for their crimes.

"They accidentally got someone killed, even though they were being careful, and so you'll just slap them on the wrist?" Alright. We'll go back AGAIN to using cops, since this is the most comparable idea. If a cop's duties lead to an accidental death he couldn't prevent, does he get jailed, butt raped, and taken through the wringer? No. Chances are he might get probation at worst. It would be foolish to assume it would be all that different for a hero.

"But what if you're so-called "trained and efficient" hero's do it recklessly and get someone killed?" Please tell me this one isn't going through your head. I sure hope you don't actually think that. Cops who act recklessly recieve larger reprimands. And if they get someone killed because they're drunk (damn, could've swore I used that one in the LAST post.), or just do something dumb that's basically inexcusable like being drunk or such, they'll probably land their asses in jail, lose the ability to be law enforcers and such. What the hell makes you think hero's just get a slap on the wrist? THAT is bad thought. Horrible. Absolutely disgraceful thought in fact.

Oh, but heroes would be more efficient if they registered you say? they could use teleporters to cut transport time you say...Well lady, this is where suspension of disbelief comes into play because if it were a real and logical world, don't you think that they would already have done it by now? Same thing goes for your Hulk example. If heroes didn't depend on a writer's whim to appear, you really think that they wouldn't act when such a dire thing happens (for example the Avengers DO have high-tech surveillance equipment).

Yeah, in the real and logical world, hero's WOULD have. Guess what YOU'RE trying to defend? This is where my suspension of disbelief comes in. You're trying to use the real world to inaccurately protect the comic world, where they DON'T already do this. See, in a logical world, something LIKE the registration would've already happened. A police force that doesn't have to answer to the people? Yeah right. Dream on. As for the teleporters? Like I said, yes, in the real world. Hell, YOU said yes in the real world and shot yourself in the foot at the same time, buddy. Because in the comic world, people DON'T work together. The registration, (Yet once again to my regret) will bring all these elements together for a far more efficient and well excecuted response.

A writer's whim for the Hulk? Are you THAT thick headed? Seriously. Let's put the Marvel universe into play. We won't have breaks, we won't have intermissions, we'll play it as real life.

Alright, now all the character's move cohesively and constantly. This means that the Hulk is no longer just under some writer who wants to use him's jurisdiction. Guess what this means? It means that your little "Hulk makes no sense" arguement just crashed and burned. Because now the Hulk can appear ANYWHERE, at ANY TIME. But you know what? Writers work somewhat of the same. They make the Hulk appear anywhere at anytime of THEIR choosing. So double strike. That means he can appear in Sioux just as likely as Brent.

As for your super high tech Avengers surveillance equiptment (which DOES exist, I'll easily say) when is it actually utilized. When the Rhino goes down, where the hell are they? When the Hulk is in town, where in the hell ARE they? Tell you where. Ivory tower doing whatever it is they do when they're not training, doing solo things, or fighting other things.

Oh and b.t.w., your 1st Kang example cracked me up, if we followed your logic, Kang would have killed the Avengers on their 2nd encounter. And yet I don't remember it happening that way :p.

Yeah, because Kang's second encounter included Thor. Kyukyuk. Smart. REAL smart.



But to get back to the topic at hand, so far you've kept on spewing the same textbook bull**** and repeating how heroism is only a romantic notion when we do know that these characters are willing to sacrifice their lives for the greater good and have even done so publicly on occasion.

*Sigh.* I swear God, I promise to give that bum off in downtown more change if you only get people to actually read before they respond.

This HAS been covered, WAAAAY more than once, by more people than myself in other threads. If you REALLY need this one repeated, go look it the hell up.

So don't give me some half-baked notion that people can't trust these heroes because they don't "really" know them because the same thing could apply to any hollywood superstar. I don't personally now Paris Hilton but I've read enough reports of her actions to know she's a ***** same as I don't really know Bono but I know he invests a lot of himself in different causes. So when I see the Avengers holding up a collapsing bridge on tv, it doesn't take a f****** genius IQ to know they're heroes. :mad:

Oh dear sweet Minerva. I know I don't follow the religion in which you exist, but I am desperate to appeal to you to possibly shake just a little bit of your wisdom and forethought onto this person, and pray that it takes hold and effect.

The first incarnation of Thunderbolts were hero's too.

But this statement you put up there is far too dumb for me to hope to redeem from you. I mean, I actually HAD to look at it for a minute. I've only been flabbergasted three times in my life before this to the point where I literally just can not speak because of the pure shock of what I had to read.

Argh. I shouldn't even HAVE to respond. But I will, in one small sentence. The ENTIRE point of Registration. End response. If you really cannot understand that part, you are beyond my help. And definitely are not reading anything about it past what you probably hear from your friends at school.
You also keep saying that if heroes are going to follow some laws, they've got to follow EVERY law. That's F****** bull****! they don't have to follow every law because they're not cops! there lies the difference. I'm not saying they should throw away the book, but ask any beat cop who has been on the street for a while and he'll tell you how the system can make their jobs difficult sometimes. Heroes don't HAVE to follow the law to stop criminals but most of them do follow the laws that they can morally justify (and don't start on different moral POVs. Some things are black&white! killing babies for instance, is wrong.PERIOD!).
XD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude, you contradicted yourself in four sentences. It was fantastic.

"They shouldn't follow every law, but we shouldn't throw the law away! Grumble grumble grumble nonsense nonsense nonsense"

And really, that was absolutely dumb what you just said there. Absopositivelyextremelyemoesqueley dumb. I HAD to throw emo in there simply due to what you said.

"They're not cops." Not cops. Not cops? Damn, I figured people who go out there, bust crime, and save lives WERE cops. But apparently, you put on a mask, and it's different. Suddenly you're not doing the same job as a cop. Because cops have all the laws apply to them too.

Moral POV's? Sounds like, "Give me an explanation of the sun, but I BETTER not hear ANYTHING about helium." However, I don't recall ANY hero's killing babies, and the law wouldn't prohibit ANYBODY from trying to stop someone from killing a baby.

World isn't built in extremes. Children see the world in black and white.

And despite you saying otherwise, there have been enough cases of the government dealing with super-villains in the past to justify an anti-registration mentality among heroes. Hell, the FBI was ready to deal with the frickin' Kingpin of Crime to get Daredevil's ID, what makes you think they won't deal out secret IDs for something else they might want?

You know, I KNOW there are cop shows in America that do a decent job of explaining this.

So let me put it in "wheel" format.

Kingpin basically controls crime, so it doesn't explode all over the place without his say so. This would imply that Kingpin contains a lot of knowledge about crime breakers. This knowledge is what we call useful? Kingpin LIKES his freedom. So what would make more sense? Bust the one guy who knows basically everything, put him in jail, where he probably wouldn't care to be one way or the other, and pride wouldn't allow him to bargain his way out, which would cause an explosion of unrest in the streets, with people killing others like crazy to just take his place, or USE the information, and bring down crime one branch at a time, until he's ready to be brought down. Remember that whole, "the world isn't black and white" thing? Though I'm sure you felt that if Kingpin was arrested, all the crime would magically go away like at the end of some whimsical Disney film, oui?

And the whole ID for info thing? THIS is where Registration once again comes into play. The government doesn't give out it's employee's names. At least, they're not suppossed to. And the government, real world and comic world, have actually done a damn decent job. Where if the Kingpin would work with them simply to know Spider-Man's name, that would be considered unprotected to them, and unless instructed otherwise, would most likely be tender for bartering.

Informants. You wouldn't BELIEVE how useful they are.

But no, I'm absolutely waiting to hear your next response. I have this warm tingling feeling I'll be saying most of this again.


Seriously guys. I'm TIRED of saying the same thing over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over over and over and over and over.

If you're just sitting here to argue with me because I've hurt your pride or some crap, at LEAST come up with new, and preferrably, BETTER ideas. Please? Pretty please?

[Kool-Aid]

Mistress Gluon, I say your name Mistress Glue On in my head when I read your name.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Forgot to respond to all of this one, and my last post probably doesn't have enough space.

Seriously, you do realize that Stamford only happened to sell the concept of CW and isn't a reflection of the usual super-fights, right? I mean one super-team makes a mistake and suddenly every hero becomes an inexperienced powder keg

Inexperienced powder keg.

Let's see. Hero's live on tension with pretty much everybody they come into contact with, especially in their public lives. This causes heavy emotional distress. The fact that most try to lead double lives leads to the idea that they probably lose sleep, and suffer from lacking on both ends.

This leads to high tension, usually VERY high tension. Aka Power Keg. Something that just needs a spark to explode.

And I never said all hero's were inexperienced powder kegs.

Oh the joys of having words put into my mouth.

[Kool-Aid]

Forgot to respond to all of this one, and my last post probably doesn't have enough space.


You have a tight post, huh?

[The Leaguer]

This thread rivals Jplaya's in stupidity.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Mistress Gluon why do you think superheroes working for the government are going to be more efficient since when is the government efficient at doing anything?

See, I like THIS train of thought. I enjoy it even. It's not the same thing. It's not distrust, it's not blatant unthought crap, it's an observation.


I actually humbly thank you for this post.


The government, a body composed of people. People by nature are unefficient, it's why they group together, to make up for one another's lacking traits, and become more efficient as a body that can make decisions and carry them out. The whole idea behind a group.

Heros. People that simply do what they wish, when they wish, for whatever reason they wish. And they do it very individually. The Avengers work as a team, and that works, it works well. X-Men, and the Fantastic Four do as well. And EACH have rules they must follow inside of the team. This is where an inner government lies. However, hero's have shown that they don't really enjoy following orders from other teams. Such as, let's say there's an Avengers/X-Men team up. In said team up, we have two VERY arrogant and opinionated people. Tony Stark and Emma Frost. Both are individualistic idiots who will NOT listen to each other unless it becomes a life or death situation. However, their combined power is probably necessary for this task, as they're being teamed up in the first place. This is where things fall apart. The two teams, aside from Cap and Cyclops, basically become "patriotic" to one's own team, which causes total lack of cooperation and efficient execution. The people's psyche's become competitive. They basically hot shot, cut corners, and start lacking in the decision making sector, in trade for showing who's team is better. This usually causes tons of destruction until a wave of luck, or extreme moment of clarity comes forth, and somehow defeats the enemy (sometimes in the form of bad writing or a deus ex machina).

This is where it becomes evident that bigger threats require bigger numbers or powers. However, like stated, most teams don't really seem to like working with each other. (Young Avengers and Runaways will definitely support this part and the last part of the previous paragraph.)

One conglomorate team fixes this. Hero's become equals, with just one team, and no competitors. No longer are they faced with having to make their team look better, nor do they have to worry about not having enough power, with a system large enough to deploy it efficiently. Four, five, or six hero's are not NEARLY enough to delegate one huge force.

For example, Ms. Marvel recently had to fight the Brood, alone. And you know who she called? The people she knew the numbers of. And either they were busy, or her personal pride got in the way of it. She's actually probably one of the BETTER heros. She, at the very least, admitted she needed help.

In this event, she nearly died because she could gain no support, and the only way she pulled out was extracting knowledge from the Brood, and escaped barely. Oh, and the villan is still out there.

This could've been prevented with a proper strike force. If there were some central hub that had access to several heros at one time, they could've gotten her support almost IMMEDIATELY. And she wouldn't have had to endure this beating from Cru. The Sentry would allegedly be at his level, and possibly higher. But since nobody can reach the Sentry, the Sentry is basically a gun in a holster left on the other pair of pants that were decided not to be worn today.

So yes, I agree that the government is anything but perfectly efficient, in fact, all governments lack perfect efficiency. But heros playing indy cowboy with small round up gangs here and there are far LESS efficient.

Whew. This felt good. Responding to someone who actually had a good question.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Mistress Gluon, I say your name Mistress Glue On in my head when I read your name.

I can't say "You put the glue on 'x product'" without thinking gluon. lol

[Mr. Green]

Hulk A: Hulk doesn't attack big things. He gets pissed and attacks randomly. Who are the street heros? Spider-Man, Daredevil, and on occassion, Black Cat. And Cardiac. None of which will most likely be around the Hulk during his assault.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Cardiac??? He hasn't been in comics for years! And Spiderman HAS encountered the Hulk before.
The Avengers sit up in their tower, like I said, and just WAIT to be told there's a problem, since they more or less don't pay too much attention to the world it seems.
Have you EVER read an issue of Avengers in your life?
[/quote]How many Hulk attacks have their been in New York that the Avengers never responded to? A few at least. [/quote]
The Avengers originally assembled because of Hulk. And by the way, it has been A LONG TIME since Hulk has wrecked NY. A really, really, REALLY long time.

I hate you by the way.

[Kool-Aid]

Edit: nevermind

[LouFerignoDemon]

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Cardiac??? He hasn't been in comics for years! And Spiderman HAS encountered the Hulk before.

Have you EVER read an issue of Avengers in your life?
How many Hulk attacks have their been in New York that the Avengers never responded to? A few at least.
The Avengers originally assembled because of Hulk. And by the way, it has been A LONG TIME since Hulk has wrecked NY. A really, really, REALLY long time.

I hate you by the way.[/quote]

Hate me? Oh, if you must.

Cardiac was seen recently, and still functions unless otherwise said so.

Avengers don't solely assemble for Hulk. The last team to assemble for that was the Fantastic Four, where two members almost died, Hulk went on a bigger rampage while strolling down memory lane, and eventually calmed down all on his own.

Avengers did a whole lot of good right there.

And you're right, Hulk doesn't always attack New York, that's why it'd be better to have a way of getting out TO the Hulk. If anything, just to distract him from the innocent people pissing him off.

As for me reading Avengers? Duh. And while you may read comics, I'm going to go ahead and strike low and say your skills in reading comics is definitely better than your skills in reasoning to use the Hulk against yourself like that. But hate you?


EDIT: I know who you are. You had to ask who Radioactive Man was because you didn't even recognize him. And you asked me if I read Avengers comics?

[Kool-Aid]

I think Spider-Man Unlimited was the last time Hulk went on a rampage in NY.

[The Leaguer]

I like how Batman reacted to the registration act. His reaction was very realistic.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Dude, I can't WAIT until someone utilizes Brother Eye as part of their arguement.



And Solar, Man of the Atom had a far better reaction.

[Mr. Green]

The last team to assemble for that was the Fantastic Four, where two members almost died, Hulk went on a bigger rampage while strolling down memory lane, and eventually calmed down all on his own.
You failed to mention that he would not have been in that state of mind in the first place were it not for him trying to disarm a gamma bomb. Who was he doing this for? The US govt maybe? See, working for the govt doesn't always work out, does it?
And while you may read comics, I'm going to go ahead and strike low and say your skills in reading comics is definitely better than your skills in reasoning to use the Hulk against yourself like that.
:confused: Your grammar am good.
EDIT: I know who you are. You had to ask who Radioactive Man was because you didn't even recognize him. And you asked me if I read Avengers comics?
When is the last time Radioactive Man was in the Avengers line-up?

You said that the Avengers sit in their tower waiting for something to go wrong. That is untrue. I was asking if you have ever read Avengers because it appears as if you don't know what you are talking about.

[Mr. Green]

I think Spider-Man Unlimited was the last time Hulk went on a rampage in NY.
Yeah, my mistake. I was just thinking about the actual Hulk comic where Hulk hasn't gone a rampage through pretty much any city in a long time.

Give me a break though, that issue was barely in continuity seeing as Hulk was KO-ed by a truck.

[LouFerignoDemon]

You failed to mention that he would not have been in that state of mind in the first place were it not for him trying to disarm a gamma bomb. Who was he doing this for? The US govt maybe? See, working for the govt doesn't always work out, does it?

Your grammar am good.


Actually, my grammar is pretty darned good. Though I will admit to the cardinal sin of the run on sentence has plagued quite a few of my posts. Also, some of my sentences suffer from a fragmented sentence. But if this is what you're going to plague me with, you should definitely correct yours first. Grammar, the last ditch effort to debase someone online.

And using a sabotaged gamma bomb as your reason?

I won't even dignify such a poor attempt at proving a point with a reason against that. Chances are you wouldn't even see the reasoning.
EDIT: I know who you are. You had to ask who Radioactive Man was because you didn't even recognize him. And you asked me if I read Avengers comics?
When is the last time Radioactive Man was in the Avengers line-up?

You said that the Avengers sit in their tower waiting for something to go wrong. That is untrue. I was asking if you have ever read Avengers because it appears as if you don't know what you are talking about.[/quote]

Now I see why Varient sighs all the time. I USED to think it was because maybe he was a big jerk or something.

Avengers are almost ALWAYS assembled by their teammates who are under attack, the news, or the government. I never actually see them take NOTICE of a problem.

And really, are you so small as to just go, "Well when was Radioactive blah blah blah blah."

I'm asking if YOU read comics since he's been a Thunderbolt for quite some time now.

Seriously dude, you're almost short of JPlaya.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Yeah, my mistake. I was just thinking about the actual Hulk comic where Hulk hasn't gone a rampage through pretty much any city in a long time.

Give me a break though, that issue was barely in continuity seeing as Hulk was KO-ed by a truck.


You want to sling around insults about people's knowledge in comics, and then ask for a break when yours comes up short? XD!

[Kool-Aid]

WTF Radioactive Man the guy from the Simpsons was a Avenger? LMAO

[Shadowknight]

When is the last time Radioactive Man was in the Avengers line-up?
I think she was referring to him being an Avengers foe - but he's been a very infrequent one since the 70's I believe.

[Mr. Green]

And really, are you so small as to just go, "Well when was Radioactive blah blah blah blah."
Quote of the century.

[BrianWilly]

It took far longer than I thought it would for you to degenerate to personal insults, Mistress Gluon, but you have managed to do so at last. Congratulations!This one is so blatantly simply, I shouldn't HAVE to say it. But you ask, and so I respond.

We'll use the two check system. We do one thing one way, then the same thing another. For my examples, I will use Kang, the Hulk, and Doctor Octopus. In my two examples, we'll do things first the unregistered way, and in the second we will do things the registered way, marked as A and B.

Kang A (location Santa Fe, New Mexico): http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-words.gif
Kang B (location Santa Fe): http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-words.gifIt's funny how you present your arguments. You'll present some imaginary worst case scenarios, ignoring the fact that nothing like these have ever occurred in the comics or else the world would have been destroyed many times over by now, and then some imaginary best case scenarios to somehow buffer your imaginary worst case scenarios. And this all somehow magically becomes proof of your arguments instead of just imaginary plotlines. Well, duh, if your stack all the cards in your favor in these "what if?" scenarios, of course you're going to come out sounding logical.

On the other hand, would you actually like to provide some evidence from the comic books of events happening like this? You act so indignant and offended when people accuse you of never having read Avengers before...well, we'd probably be a bit more sympathetic if you gave the impression of ever having read any Avengers in your life; you make the entire team sound like incompetent retards caught with their pants down all the time instead of the premiere superhero team on the planet. The idea of the Avengers taking thirty minutes to respond to a problem is utterly ludicrous. The idea of them fighting someone for over two hours is just laughably insane. If states that they fought in needed a new capital every time they fought, we'd have no more states with capitals. The idea of taking an imaginary worst case scenario that has never had anything remotely akin to it happen in the comics and trying to apply it as some some sort of proof of what happens in the comics...well, I'm sure if you weren't so busy of accusing others of not using their brains, you could figure out why this is complete nonsense.

I notice, incidentally, that the group of Avengers you've included in your imaginary plotlines are all from the New Avengers. I'm sure you're aware of this, but the current team of Avengers is close to completely useless. They're amongst the weakest incarnations of the team yet. I know it, everyone knows it; it's one of the biggest complaints that fans lobby against Bendis. Why, I wonder, did you not utilize an incarnation of the team with more powerful members such as Thor, Vision, Hercules, etc in your imaginary plotline? Could it be because being like them would automatically make your scenarios even less likely than they already are?

And your Hulk scenario doesn't even deserve acknowledgement, but I'll make one anyway: the entire premise seems to be that in one scenario, the Sentry doesn't respond whereas in the other scenario, the Sentry responds. What the hell? What in the world does that have anything to do with registration? You are aware that the Sentry is a part of this team of Avengers as well, right? Why is he any more likely to respond in one case as opposed to the other?


Efficient, eh? Didn't I say the Avengers only respond to the big things, Spider-Man is stuck fighting people like Doc Ock and the Rhino as well as Daredevil?

Efficient? Sure. If your idea of efficient goes against the desire to care about the crossfire involved in these fights. They DO get resolved. Sure, they do. But I doubt they get resolved nearly as quickly as a spead out hero response program.Mistress Gluon, the entire premise of your argument seems to be based on the fact that you think unregistered superhero teams are just complete jackass morons who couldn't find their butt with a map and that every time they step out in action it results in utter inefficiency and catastrophic loss of lives. Well, I'm not sure how you happened to end up with this opinion but it's either put up or shut up time, 'cause you haven't provided a single verifiable example from the comic books to validate this stance on them. Your imaginary whatif? scenarios are fun for a laugh to read and all, but don't show jack sht about the actual circumstances of the Marvel universe.

Meanwhile...if you ask for it, I'm sure anyone here will be able to show you dozens upon dozens of examples, straight from the comic books, of superhero teams and individual superheroes acting with great efficiency in peacekeeping and lifesaving efforts. Oh sure, they'll run into trouble a lot of times -- like you said, what's the point of reading about teams that are perfect all the time? -- but by far more often do they end up with good results.

I'm sure that they next thing you're going to say is that just because we never see the cases where superhero rescues go bad doesn't mean that they don't exist...well, that's all good and well but it means jack to your case. You can't argue a negative with another negative and call it evidence. You'd literally be saying, "We don't see an example of this happening, so it must be true." Nope, doesn't work that way. Either show some evidence or move on.


So, unrealistic (judging how I compare them to cops continuously) and bitter (seeing how cops actually help solve a problem, where hero's basically use a sprinkle can on a forest fire.) I just don't see it.

So, we'll go with the "not enough" part. I say they don't sacrifice enough? They put their families at risk all the time, as well as their lives, but I don't think they sacrifice enough? I guess you can derive my posts (if you REALLY stretch it, and I do require team effort. Nevermind, teams don't work as well as the individual) to where it seems like I say that. So I'll clear it up now. I think they sacrifice TOO MUCH with their current ways of doing things. They shovel everything on one person's shoulders to do so much, to cover so many villans, that one would wonder why they do heroics at all.No, you have depicted a superhuman worldview of utter blame and guilt. You, in your own words, have blamed them and their pride as the sole reason supervillains are so effective. You accuse them, without any evidence I'll reiterate, of being so utterly incompetent in their jobs as to sit on their asses twiddling their thumbs for hours on end while entire cities get destroyed. They only have a responsibility to do better because you accuse them of being deficient in the first place. It is a worldview of reprehensibility, of guilt-trips, in order to make other people act the way that you want them to. And then you say that your attitude isn't bitter or cynical with a straight face? Honey, if you're not even going to read your own posts, then why should I? I don't have to stretch anything, Mistress Gluon, when it's laid out flat in my face already.


Make me happy? I could care less. It's not my world, I don't have to worry about those humans. THEY'RE the ones who aren't happy. Personally, as one who occupies much of her time with sciences and such, I can very much appreciate order and structure. Hell, God knows I'd never solve physics problems if I just used random number cultures, rather than a structure and method.That's...nice for you:confused:?

No, superhero's aren't a volunteer force as it stands. The registration offers a volunteer force. YOU seem to forget that one. Because superheros, as they stand, basically throw on a mask, choose when is the most conveninent time that doesn't conflict with their rather busy lives, and do what they think needs to be done. Where registration proposes a structured, efficient FORCE that is always capable of removing problems upon first notice.
Pure semantics. The fact that they volunteer their personal lives without pay makes them a volunteer force.

Do you even know what the registration is? By definition they'll become paid employees of the government. Paid as in "not volunteers."


This is where thinking comes in handy. That grey mass in your head is there for more than remembering how to read, determine colors, and run your automatic functions.Oh honestly, if you're going to stoop to making personal insults then at least change them up. "You aren't thinking! You have to use your brain! You aren't using your brain! I've already said all this and am only repeating myself! Use your brain! Think!" Please.

[Lactophiliac]

The government, a body composed of people. People by nature are unefficient, it's why they group together, to make up for one another's lacking traits, and become more efficient as a body that can make decisions and carry them out. The whole idea behind a group.While that's possibly the idea, it's not always the case. Lets take a simple example from my life to prove that a motivated individual can be more efficient then a group; I'm hungry and I want food, okay I'll go to McDonalds and eat something, there problem solved. Now lets say I'm hungry but my girlfriend is here too, we can’t go to McDonalds because she wants to eat something healthy, but I don’t want to go to Subway because I had a Sub yesterday at work. Now we need to decide on some restaurant that we both want to eat at, that could take a long, long time, so long I could’ve gotten my McD’s and eaten by the time we figure out what to do. Okay so maybe I’m a little pissed off I didn’t get McDonalds yesterday, but the point is valid.

Anyway I don’t see how the government is going to be anymore efficient at controlling superhero activity then the superheroes are doing right now. Heroes don’t seem all that inefficient to me, no more or less then the plot needs, which is exactly the same way it’ll be if the government is involved.

[Doc Destruction]

Quote wars make me want to punch a baby.

[gildea]

While that's possibly the idea, it's not always the case. Lets take a simple example from my life to prove that a motivated individual can be more efficient then a group; I'm hungry and I want food, okay I'll go to McDonalds and eat something, there problem solved. Now lets say I'm hungry but my girlfriend is here too, we can’t go to McDonalds because she wants to eat something healthy, but I don’t want to go to Subway because I had a Sub yesterday at work. Now we need to decide on some restaurant that we both want to eat at, that could take a long, long time, so long I could’ve gotten my McD’s and eaten by the time we figure out what to do. Okay so maybe I’m a little pissed off I didn’t get McDonalds yesterday, but the point is valid.


Thats more to do with your production process (ie going to get something to eat) being riddled with inefficiency than the amount of people involved though.

Though I do agree that diminishing returns will eventually set if numbers keep increasing.

[Lactophiliac]

Thats more to do with your production process (ie going to get something to eat) being riddled with inefficiency than the amount of people involved though.

Though I do agree that diminishing returns will eventually set if numbers keep increasing.While getting something to eat is one of the hardest things a group of people can decide to do together, everything that needs to be decided by a group is usually harder then one person making the decision. Everyone has an opinion of what the best way of doing something is, and at least in the government everyone wants to make damn sure that it’s done the way they want it done. The government isn’t made up of like minded individuals it’s made up of groups of like minded individuals who are almost constantly at odds with each other. If the Hulk was attacking New York half of them would want Thor to deal with the problem the other half would want the Sentry, and they would argue about it for hours while he destroyed everything.

[3dman27]

i'm afraid this thread might be going off topic

[roach]

now I dont know if I want Subway or McDissel's

[3dman27]

could we get back on topic please

[Darthphere]

Im so ****ing confused.

[LouFerignoDemon]

While that's possibly the idea, it's not always the case. Lets take a simple example from my life to prove that a motivated individual can be more efficient then a group; I'm hungry and I want food, okay I'll go to McDonalds and eat something, there problem solved. Now lets say I'm hungry but my girlfriend is here too, we can’t go to McDonalds because she wants to eat something healthy, but I don’t want to go to Subway because I had a Sub yesterday at work. Now we need to decide on some restaurant that we both want to eat at, that could take a long, long time, so long I could’ve gotten my McD’s and eaten by the time we figure out what to do. Okay so maybe I’m a little pissed off I didn’t get McDonalds yesterday, but the point is valid.

Anyway I don’t see how the government is going to be anymore efficient at controlling superhero activity then the superheroes are doing right now. Heroes don’t seem all that inefficient to me, no more or less then the plot needs, which is exactly the same way it’ll be if the government is involved.


lol I love the actual example. An example! You don't know HOW happy you've made me. Hell, I'm happy enough to bear your children right about now.

However, there is still flaws in this. See, with your example, you're stating that you're on your way home, passing all sorts of restaurants trying to find a place that will appease both you AND your girlfriend. But this is somewhat of an inaccurate example.

See, the idea of a super hero response team would be contingent on a crisis at hand, rather than the idea of looking for one. And while I agree people will disagree with how the heros would be best capable of preventing these disasters this thread is plagued with (by me primarily), the whole point of registration is to take care of a critical emergency as they pop along. Whereas your going out for food can take as long as you need, and is totally based on a preference. This of course is assuming you're not dying of hunger, or you're not being held at gunpoint and being told to go somewhere BY your girlfriend. Then I would recommend two things: Eat ANYTHING!! And get a new girlfriend, because THAT one is a psychopath.


So, as for the government efficiency thing. The only times I could see larger government being involved is if there were some sort of huge issuing of hero's for bigger use. But for the most part, it seems to be the hero's will be working at police levels, and will be handled in a similar fashion (maybe a little more complex with selective teams and unexpected responses and such.) I don't see congress needing to sign a bill each time the hero's are issued. And so, like the police who can delegate their officers as needed over a city or such, the hero's would be able to act in a similar, if not identical fashion, by strategy and planning.

It's like Stratego or Chess. You don't win with the muscle offensive. You win by strategy and placement.

And I'll get to BrianWilly's post later. I'm definitely looking forward to responding to it, but I'm suppossed to be in a meeting pretty soon.


And McDonald's is yuck.

[LouFerignoDemon]

While getting something to eat is one of the hardest things a group of people can decide to do together, everything that needs to be decided by a group is usually harder then one person making the decision. Everyone has an opinion of what the best way of doing something is, and at least in the government everyone wants to make damn sure that it’s done the way they want it done. The government isn’t made up of like minded individuals it’s made up of groups of like minded individuals who are almost constantly at odds with each other. If the Hulk was attacking New York half of them would want Thor to deal with the problem the other half would want the Sentry, and they would argue about it for hours while he destroyed everything.

I agree that if a decision was being made there and then, it would be far too late for a just and successful retaliation to be made. By then, the Hulk would've torn NY up wherever he was.

However, I've posted the idea of planning and strategy. Plans, and interchangable pieces that respond to likely, and probably unlikely, scenarios. So if the Hulk attacks, a plan is already in place and initialized for it.

[Darthphere]

And I'll get to BrianWilly's post later. I'm definitely looking forward to responding to it, but I'm suppossed to be in a meeting pretty soon.


Im definitely looking forward to not reading it too.:up:

[marcofthebeast]

I'm gonna take a guess on how it's gonna be.

Something something somethhing

Use your brain.your wrong,im right.

blah blah blah
.
this is sooo stupid i don't even want to respond.... but I will with 16 paragraphs

and it goes on and on and on

[Doc Destruction]

It's almost baby punching time.

[The Leaguer]

Vin Diesel could beat up Chuck Norris.

[MyPokerShirt]

Quote wars make me want to punch a baby.


but... you told me you only do that at weekends

[MyPokerShirt]

Vin Diesel could beat up Chuck Norris.

no way, man. Mr. Rodgers in a Blood-stained Sweater.

[The Leaguer]

Who is this Rodgers person.

[3dman27]

Who is this Rodgers person.
the now desceased host of mr rodger's neighborhood
a somewhat tastless remark i must say

[The Leaguer]

I was joking. It's not tasteless. You're tasteless.

[MyPokerShirt]

im british so i didnt know who the heck he was at first. meh. he hosted some kids/family show right? in otherwise a rrrrreally nice guy? ~*a tear shed for those lost*~

[The Leaguer]

You know why he's dead? Vin Diesel killed him.

[MyPokerShirt]

lets start our own conversation on whether mr rogers has lost his moral authority, yeah? no he didn't. chuck norris had to have dock ock, spock and the rock, plus every single power ranger... and the pope (or something) to take him out. he was blantantly playing dead and ripped mr rodgers balls off. or,or... something less offensive thats gona get me flamed. again.

[The Leaguer]

He did. He's dead.

[Jplaya2023]

Seriously dude, you're almost short of JPlaya.

What exactly are you trying to say?

[Doc Destruction]

It's Alive!!!

[kiuju2k]

marvel train wreck.

[Willowhugger]

Well as far as Cassie is concerned, apparently anyone who doesn't want to fight the Man HATES AMERICA.

He's apparently gotten a little radical.

[The Leaguer]

What exactly are you trying to say?
That you suck.

[Darthphere]

Well as far as Cassie is concerned, apparently anyone who doesn't want to fight the Man HATES AMERICA.

He's apparently gotten a little radical.


Yeah because thats what he said.:whatever:

[roach]

the now desceased host of mr rodger's neighborhood
a somewhat tastless remark i must say


Mr. Rodgers was a Marine Sniper in "Nam and has the record for most confirmed kills..........truth

[LadyMoira]

A LOT of characters have lost their moral compass since CW started, (and worse yet been written out of character,) but Cap I think is the one person who's been acting more or less like the guy all knew before. He knows the SHRA is a bad idea; he knows many of his natural allies like Luke Cage, Daredevil, etc would oppose it and be hunted down for it so he decides to be the one to lead their fight. I think he's becoming more than a little bitter where Tony and a bunch of the other pro-registration heroes are concerned but that's all too easy to understand on his part.

[Xofenroht]

I'm really having trouble reasoning with people with this whole "Everyone is out of character thing". I think people are just saying that because they're not on the side they want them to be on.

[Darthphere]

I think the only person you can make the out of character argument for is Reed.

[LadyMoira]

I guess I would just prefer to think that Tony, (while often a total bastard, wasn't this much of a bastard before CW started. Though, that may be up to debate...but god I miss the real Reed;clueless, geeky, but overall an extremely decent man who was a good husband and father.

[3dman27]

whats this with portaying tony as a duchebag anyway because he was a buisnessman first concentration on protecting his company? or because he was a playboy?i'm confused

[Doombringer]

What is all this ridiculousness??

Tony is a tool, and Cap is just being Cap as always. That whole cloning a god thing is really trippy ****. Those Pro's got some balls, eh?

[KingOfDreams]

I disagree wholeheartedly. The registration act is a mistake. Cap is right to be fighting it.

People have a right to privacy. the SHRA is just the first step towards fascism.

Agreed. A hero is only as effective as the symbol is effective. Take away the symbol, the secret identity, he or she is just another human being. And governments are corrupt. They do unethical things all the time...and could force heroes to do the same. The "hero" would be sullied.

[Doombringer]

"People need dramatic examples to shake them out of apathy and i cant do that as Bruce Wayne. As a man im flesh and blood i can be ignored or destroyed, but as a symbol? I could be uncorruptable, everlasting..."

^ I think he said it best, haha... or something along those lines.

[Phatman]

The supehero registration act is a hackneyed re-hash of the Mutant Registration act storyline that ran through Marvel comics in the 80's. Man these comic writers need to get out of the past and stop rehashing their favorite childhood comics and start writing something original for this decade.

[3dman27]

The supehero registration act is a hackneyed re-hash of the Mutant Registration act storyline that ran through Marvel comics in the 80's. Man these comic writers need to get out of the past and stop rehashing their favorite childhood comics and start writing something original for this decade.
i hear THAT:ninja:

[thor87]

yeah i agree, there hasnt been something uniquely original in a while, all we get are supposedly universe changing arcs that just bring up old ideas with a semi-new spin

[TheCorpulent1]

That's kind of a tall order. You try looking back on everything that's been published in comics and then try to come up with a "uniquely original" story. I guarantee you it will have been done somewhere else before.

[KingOfDreams]

"People need dramatic examples to shake them out of apathy and i cant do that as Bruce Wayne. As a man im flesh and blood i can be ignored or destroyed, but as a symbol? I could be uncorruptable, everlasting..."

^ I think he said it best, haha... or something along those lines.

That's exactly what I was thinking of.

[LouFerignoDemon]

That's kind of a tall order. You try looking back on everything that's been published in comics and then try to come up with a "uniquely original" story. I guarantee you it will have been done somewhere else before.

Wasn't it once said that there are really only six different kinds of stories in total?

[TheCorpulent1]

Something like that. They've all been used, too. No matter what story you present these days, someone will be able to match it up to a predecessor. Maybe not necessarily in comics, but in literature as a whole, certainly.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Yeah, it was applied to all literature, that no matter how fresh the story seemed, it had already been done before or something like that. Or it's just another way of telling the same story. Like Underworld and Romeo and Juliet.

[kainedamo]

I've never liked Captain America more than in Civil War. That's mostly because I was never interested in him before and considered him a boyscout.

Now I know better. He is a certified badass that stands up for the rights and freedoms of the people.

I think the creator of the thread has missed one IMPORTANT detail. The SHRA act doesn't just effect people like Spidey who hold onto their secret IDs.

This is what the SHRA does. ANYONE with a super ability, whether mutant, accident, or whatever, has to register. It doesn't matter if you used those abilities previously. You HAVE to register.

A guy that learned karate and stops a mugging could be arrested under the SHRA. So it's anyone that tries to be a bit of a vigilante.

Anyone that is registered under the SHRA effectively becomes an employee of SHIELD. This, and the fact that anyone with powers has to sign up, is the biggest mud stump on human rights. It means that, even if you had no desire to fight crime before, you now have no other choice. You HAVE to do whatever SHIELD tells you to. This also effectively means that you have to do the dirty work of the government.

What happens several years down the line? You will have an army, a MASSIVE army of super "heroes". A super police force. They will fight America's wars. They will police America's streets. It will make it so much easier for the government to bring in more fascist laws if they have super police enforcing it.

How can Cap accept any of this?

[LouFerignoDemon]

I've never liked Captain America more than in Civil War. That's mostly because I was never interested in him before and considered him a boyscout.

Now I know better. He is a certified badass that stands up for the rights and freedoms of the people.

I think the creator of the thread has missed one IMPORTANT detail. The SHRA act doesn't just effect people like Spidey who hold onto their secret IDs.

This is what the SHRA does. ANYONE with a super ability, whether mutant, accident, or whatever, has to register. It doesn't matter if you used those abilities previously. You HAVE to register.

A guy that learned karate and stops a mugging could be arrested under the SHRA. So it's anyone that tries to be a bit of a vigilante.

Anyone that is registered under the SHRA effectively becomes an employee of SHIELD. This, and the fact that anyone with powers has to sign up, is the biggest mud stump on human rights. It means that, even if you had no desire to fight crime before, you now have no other choice. You HAVE to do whatever SHIELD tells you to. This also effectively means that you have to do the dirty work of the government.

What happens several years down the line? You will have an army, a MASSIVE army of super "heroes". A super police force. They will fight America's wars. They will police America's streets. It will make it so much easier for the government to bring in more fascist laws if they have super police enforcing it.

How can Cap accept any of this?

SHRA doesn't apply to just anybody. Just anybody practicing costumed heroics. And no, that doesn't include putting a bandana over your mouth. Just when you get a costume, go out with a name, and do things in the name of justice unregistered.

But yes, Captain America is a badass. As badass as Iron Man? Heavens, no. But a badass nonetheless.

[kainedamo]

SHRA doesn't apply to just anybody. Just anybody practicing costumed heroics. And no, that doesn't include putting a bandana over your mouth. Just when you get a costume, go out with a name, and do things in the name of justice unregistered.

The recent issue of New Avengers that was all about Luke Cage seems to contradict that. It heavily implies it's anyone with powers.

They're leaving the mutants alone for now. But only because the mutants are in such a weakened state. It's only a matter of time before they use the SHRA to go after mutants.

[Willowhugger]

I dislike anything that lauds Cappie at the sole expense of Iron Man. There is a serious downside to Cappie's argument I'm hoping. Something where we see the price of freedom is often suffering whereas we question the seriousness of the conflict's value.

Stature was right in that it IS a pointless conflict in many respects.

[Willowhugger]

Yeah because thats what he said.:whatever:

Actually that's exactly what he said.

Cassie leaving is about her not caring about freedom.

THAT'S WHAT HE SAID.

[BrianWilly]

Uh, no, actually, that's pretty much exactly what he didn't say.

His exact words were "Let them go if their freedom means so little to them," not "If they don't fight, then they hate America." Two completely different sentences. Saying that she doesn't care about her freedom is not the same thing as saying that she hates America, which is exactly what you said that Cap said.

And yes, Cassie leaving does mean she doesn't care about her freedom. This is not a disparaging remark towards her, it's just putting the situation as bluntly as possible. She wants everything to be nicely black and white and straightforward, and she's willing to give up her freedom as an individual and become a government tool in order to do that. Of course it's much more justifiable for her since she's only 14 and just saw a guy get shot through the chest with lightning, and obviously she just doesn't want to fight anymore and is looking for any way out of all the badness, but let's not sugarcoat her decision here. Cap might be accused of being insensitive to her situation, but he's not wrong about what she's doing at all; and what she's doing is willingly turning herself over to same people that she saw shoot two of her best friends, put one of them into a Negative Zone prison, and also cloned a living being to be a weapon of mass destruction. In other words, Stark managed to get a teenage girl to his side through violence, fear, and intimidation. Way to go, Tony.

The other explanation, of course, is that she's trying to be a mole. What better person to be a spy than someone who can shrink to the size of an ant? But a plotline like that would simply make too much sense, so we can be certain that Millar's not using it.

[Phatman]

Y'know looking at this story I'm seeing Apocalypse manipulating a lot of this. the same way he manipulated stuff in "Fall of the Mutants" with the Mutant Registration act. He's always been the one who has wanted a war within the superhuman community to weed out the weak from the strong. Whereas in Fall of the Mutants he waged war between mutants, this time he's manipulating forces on a broader scale to get his civil war learning from his mistakes in the past.

Look at these plot points:

The Extremis virus Iron Man infected himself with that makes his armor an extension of himself and allows him to control of outside electronic devices. Kinda similar to the techno-organic virus Cable had to deal with for years. Perhaps this is a precursor to that virus. I'd think the writers would have Cable pick up on that.

I really think Tony's being manipulated by the extremis virus, the same way Archangel was manipulated by Apoc's modificiations. Remember, Apocalypse is a master of biochemistry and a lot of his victims have no idea he's controlling them.

Mutant Growth Hormone MGH seems like something Apoc would cook up. It's kind of similar to the way he modified the mutants who became his four horsemen.

The fact that the SHRA was proposed and passed. Could Apocalypse be manipulating members of congress or disguising himself as a member of Congress to get legislation is passed.

The Sheild agent whatever her name is . I truly believe she's Apocalypse in Disguise or being manipulated by him.

That being said I think Cap is on the right side of this, his character has always stood for freedom and justice regardless of the subtle politics transpiring around him. He smells a rat with this SHRA just like he smelled one with the MRA (Cap was one of the first to denounce the MRA when it was proposed in X-Men vs. Avengers during the trial of Magneto)(if you remember those books I'm taking you WAY BACK)

To me, I think Cap has to get out of debating partisan politics with Tony (Who I believe is being used like a pawn by Apocalypse, Red Skull or whoever) and see who the real puppet master is behind this conflict.

[Phatman]

Double post. Sorry

[BrianWilly]

Millar has been pretty insistant on the fact that there will be no grand villain behind the scenes manipulating all of this. Maybe we'll get a retcon of the manipulative villain into these events when the series ends and clearer heads at Marvel see the blatant mischaracterizations and irrevocable damage that has been done to this universe, but it's unlikely that it will happen in the series proper.

[LadyMoira]

Cap might be accused of being insensitive to her situation, but he's not wrong about what she's doing at all; and what she's doing is willingly turning herself over to same people that she saw shoot two of her best friends, put one of them into a Negative Zone prison, and also cloned a living being to be a weapon of mass destruction. In other words, Stark managed to get a teenage girl to his side through violence, fear, and intimidation. Way to go, Tony.

The other explanation, of course, is that she's trying to be a mole. What better person to be a spy than someone who can shrink to the size of an ant? But a plotline like that would simply make too much sense, so we can be certain that Millar's not using it.
Yesterday 06:07 PM

Great analysis; yes Cassie or Cable being moles would make a helluva lot more sense, (ESPECIALLY for Cable whose desertion of Cap otherwise makes NO sense at all,) which probably means Millar isn't planning it. This is the guy who decided to turn nice girl Karen Page the love of Matt's life into a heroin shooting porn star who betrays Matt for another shot of H. And somehow I think Cap is a little too bereft over Foster's death in that scene to be showing a whole lot of sensitivity to others. Cap is in some ways showing more of a dark side since the CW began; though, in his case it actually makes sense as a logical human response to all the BS going on and to not being able to make his date with that kid from the make a wish foundation. Cap particularly resenting that by the way, struck me as being well...so Cap. It's why we love him!

Y'know looking at this story I'm seeing Apocalypse manipulating a lot of this. the same way he manipulated stuff in "Fall of the Mutants" with the Mutant Registration act. He's always been the one who has wanted a war within the superhuman community to weed out the weak from the strong. Whereas in Fall of the Mutants he waged war between mutants, this time he's manipulating forces on a broader scale to get his civil war learning from his mistakes in the past.

Look at these plot points:

The Extremis virus Iron Man infected himself with that makes his armor an extension of himself and allows him to control of outside electronic devices. Kinda similar to the techno-organic virus Cable had to deal with for years. Perhaps this is a precursor to that virus. I'd think the writers would have Cable pick up on that.

I really think Tony's being manipulated by the extremis virus, the same way Archangel was manipulated by Apoc's modificiations. Remember, Apocalypse is a master of biochemistry and a lot of his victims have no idea he's controlling them.

Mutant Growth Hormone MGH seems like something Apoc would cook up. It's kind of similar to the way he modified the mutants who became his four horsemen.

The fact that the SHRA was proposed and passed. Could Apocalypse be manipulating members of congress or disguising himself as a member of Congress to get legislation is passed.

The Sheild agent whatever her name is . I truly believe she's Apocalypse in Disguise or being manipulated by him.

That being said I think Cap is on the right side of this, his character has always stood for freedom and justice regardless of the subtle politics transpiring around him. He smells a rat with this SHRA just like he smelled one with the MRA (Cap was one of the first to denounce the MRA when it was proposed in X-Men vs. Avengers during the trial of Magneto)(if you remember those books I'm taking you WAY BACK)

To me, I think Cap has to get out of debating partisan politics with Tony (Who I believe is being used like a pawn by Apocalypse, Red Skull or whoever) and see who the real puppet master is behind this conflict.

This all makes a lot of sense and would also might account for Reed's actions as well if he's being subtly mentally manipulated. And there are other hints as well across the series that there's a bigger player behind all this Millar's denials not withstanding. I can't trust Millar as a writer, (at least not with these characters; he does all right when he makes up the universe himself like Sin City unfortunately when working with already established characters he tends to re-write them into entirely new people who fit Sin City kind of themes instead of the heroes the fans originally fell in love with. But I also don't trust him to be forthright with the fans and I really would prefer there to be some kind of bad guy who's helped cloud the thinking of some of these people because then they could be redeemed which in the present course doesn't seem possible especially not with Tony.




Millar has been pretty insistant on the fact that there will be no grand villain behind the scenes manipulating all of this. Maybe we'll get a retcon of the manipulative villain into these events when the series ends and clearer heads at Marvel see the blatant mischaracterizations and irrevocable damage that has been done to this universe, but it's unlikely that it will happen in the series proper.

Seriously. This may be one of the few cases in recent years where a retcon would actually be a good idea that would make better sense than the original storyline.

[LouFerignoDemon]

The recent issue of New Avengers that was all about Luke Cage seems to contradict that. It heavily implies it's anyone with powers.

They're leaving the mutants alone for now. But only because the mutants are in such a weakened state. It's only a matter of time before they use the SHRA to go after mutants.

Actually, the mutants are quarantined and registered through a different program, so it wouldn't matter.

But you're right about Luke. I'm just saying that not EVERYBODY will be slapped with the SHRA simply because they stopped a mugging.

[LadyMoira]

You're right that they wouldn't do it to everyone Mistress Gluon. But it strikes me that it would be awfully hard to know where exactly they would draw the line. The Prowler only has the powers of his technology but he was on the list. Moreover as Wonderman discovered it's not just registration in and of itself but a draft as well. The U.S. government would be telling these people when they had to fight and when they couldn't. This would be fine in theory if you assume that the government would always be completely fair and ethical in this but sadly long experience shows that you can't depend on them always. The government might ask the super-heroes to fight on the side of a dictatorship style regime or religous radical group that foreign policy dictated they consider our allies, (we've allied with Saddam in the past, and Osama, and a host of other very evil people,) or say that for reasons of foreign policy said heroes weren't allowed to fight certain villains like Doctor Doom even if they were carrying out genocide. Look how we refused to interfere in Rwanda. What about another generation or two when the mutant population might very well rebound again; wouldn't all those mutants thus be forced to register? What's Uncle Sam's policy on dealing with intergalactic threats like the Kree-Skull war or Galactus? The idea of super-heroes being registered like doctors or lawyers is very good in theory but in practive the way it's set up only creates a hideously slippery slope and host of potential problems and abuses. I don't know if Cap's more badass than Tony is but on this one I really think he's seeing the big picture more clearly. And I actually I still like Tony or am at least interested in him but in this case I see him as a tragic figure being destroyed by his own hubris a weakness far more dangerous than his alcoholism ever was.

[DACMAN]

edit DP

[DACMAN]

I disagree wholeheartedly. The registration act is a mistake. Cap is right to be fighting it.

People have a right to privacy. the SHRA is just the first step towards fascism.

Maybe the act alone could be acceptable if the MU government could be trusted even one tiny bit but look at their track record. Look at the Xavier institute, once a haven for mutants, now practically a concentration camp.
Now the government is backing known supervillains and demonizing heroes.
They're sending shield agents out to arrest people for being good samaritans. They're making it a federal offense to be a good human being unless you're a registered good human being.
What if a guy who takes karate lessons stops a mugging? are they gonna throw him in prison for being an unregistered combatant?

First it's people with powers and masks, then it's people with powers, then it's people with skills. Eventually it'll just be people.
"noone was left to speak out when they came for me"

Cap may have made strategic mistakes because he was naive about his friends loyalties but morally he's absolutely in the right. His comments are the result of a highly emotionally charged conflict and him lashing out because he's hurt by the percieved betrayals by his friends who honestly should know better. Harsh words dont make him a bad person.

and a vote doesnt make a bad idea less bad.
Hitler was elected remember? This law is just another mistake that'll have horrible results.Even in the real world you can't go around being a vigilante. It's different being in the right place at the right time and helping someone who needs help. It's totally different going out and look for crime and then enforcing it yourself. It doesn't have to do with powers as much as much as being a vigilante. Why would they go after the Punisher? In the real world today boxing champs need to register their hands because they are considered a deadly weapon. I don't hear you protesting that. Instead you're here defending a comic book character's decision in a comic book. You can't have people running around looking for trouble and doing whatever they want to do when they find it. People need to be held accountable to their own actions. A good samaritan helps when the situation arises. A vigilante goes out and looks for trouble and enforces the law the way they want to.

[Darthphere]

Uh, no, actually, that's pretty much exactly what he didn't say.

His exact words were "Let them go if their freedom means so little to them," not "If they don't fight, then they hate America." Two completely different sentences. Saying that she doesn't care about her freedom is not the same thing as saying that she hates America, which is exactly what you said that Cap said.

And yes, Cassie leaving does mean she doesn't care about her freedom. This is not a disparaging remark towards her, it's just putting the situation as bluntly as possible. She wants everything to be nicely black and white and straightforward, and she's willing to give up her freedom as an individual and become a government tool in order to do that. Of course it's much more justifiable for her since she's only 14 and just saw a guy get shot through the chest with lightning, and obviously she just doesn't want to fight anymore and is looking for any way out of all the badness, but let's not sugarcoat her decision here. Cap might be accused of being insensitive to her situation, but he's not wrong about what she's doing at all; and what she's doing is willingly turning herself over to same people that she saw shoot two of her best friends, put one of them into a Negative Zone prison, and also cloned a living being to be a weapon of mass destruction. In other words, Stark managed to get a teenage girl to his side through violence, fear, and intimidation. Way to go, Tony.

The other explanation, of course, is that she's trying to be a mole. What better person to be a spy than someone who can shrink to the size of an ant? But a plotline like that would simply make too much sense, so we can be certain that Millar's not using it.


Thank you! Talk about people taking things completely out of context.

[Sloth7d]

SHRA doesn't apply to just anybody. Just anybody practicing costumed heroics. And no, that doesn't include putting a bandana over your mouth. Just when you get a costume, go out with a name, and do things in the name of justice unregistered.

But yes, Captain America is a badass. As badass as Iron Man? Heavens, no. But a badass nonetheless.
Cap is Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more bad ass than Ironman could ever dream of.

[LadyMoira]

Cap is Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more bad ass than Ironman could ever dream of.


That raises the question how we define "badass." Ironman has more power than Cap does, and it was established long before the SHRA was even being written that Tony's a helluva lot more ruthless than Steve is. (Steve being burdened by all these pesky ideals and ethics.) Of course if you define "badass" as being gutsiness, force of will, personal leadership skills or the like than the whole calculus changes dramatically

[Sloth7d]

That raises the question how we define "badass." Ironman has more power than Cap does, and it was established long before the SHRA was even being written that Tony's a helluva lot more ruthless than Steve is. (Steve being burdened by all these pesky ideals and ethics.) Of course if you define "badass" as being gutsiness, force of will, personal leadership skills or the like than the whole calculus changes dramatically
The latter.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, badassness is relative. Iron Man's a douche; Cap's badass. That's the way it's always been for me, at least. I've never much liked Iron Man.

[stillanerd]

The supehero registration act is a hackneyed re-hash of the Mutant Registration act storyline that ran through Marvel comics in the 80's. Man these comic writers need to get out of the past and stop rehashing their favorite childhood comics and start writing something original for this decade.

You're more right than you know. Joe Quesada himself stated that SHRA and Mutant Registration were the same:


NRAMA: “werehippy” - Does the Registration Act apply to all super-powered people, or only those that are actively engaged in heroics? And if it applies to all people with powers regardless of their level of activity, how is it different from the Mutant Registration Act, beyond not focusing only on mutants?
JQ: It applies to super humans and vigilantes, werehippy. And yes, it is absolutely no different than mutant registration. For once, the whole of the super powered Marvel Universe knows what it feels like to be a mutant.

http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays03.html

So much for "there's no right or wrong side." Any X-Men fan can tell you registration is always, always, ALWAYS bad.

[BrianWilly]

Throughout the history of sociology and human rights, "registration" has always been a very dirty word that brings up a lot of uncomfortable memories.

Nazi Germany ordered all Jews to be registered and publicly identified some time before it escalated into flat-out concentration camps.

The South African apartheid government made laws forcing all black South Africans do be registered as a black citizen.

The list goes on...I mean, even an average person without a lot of historical background feels awkward at the mention of being forced by the government to register for something or other. In essence, The SHRA had a lot of strikes going against it, perceptually speaking, from its very conception.

It was Marvel's self-proclaimed job, then, to fervently work against those stereotypes and establish the SHRA as a fundamentally beneficial and humane course of action even with all those preconceived negative notions we as a human race have had towards the idea of registering for the Big Bad Government. Even if they hadn't said from the outset that this was exactly what they'd do, they should be doing it anyway if they wanted this major event to have any narrative or moral significance at all, since otherwise it just turns into another Victimized Superheroes vs. Big Bad Government story.

It is my opinion, and apparently the opinion of the majority of people here at least, that they have utterly failed in this objective. Instead of working against the stereotype of a morally bankrupt governmental state abusing its power and redefining morality and ethics to work in its own favor in the name of "the greater good," Marvel and Millar has instead trudged in full-barrel to embrace that mold for the SHRA and its supporters.

It'd be more disappointing if I hadn't predicted this would happen right from the first moment I heard about this series[/bitter].

[Dread]

Throughout the history of sociology and human rights, "registration" has always been a very dirty word that brings up a lot of uncomfortable memories.

Nazi Germany ordered all Jews to be registered and publicly identified some time before it escalated into flat-out concentration camps.

The South African apartheid government made laws forcing all black South Africans do be registered as a black citizen.

The list goes on...I mean, even an average person without a lot of historical background feels awkward at the mention of being forced by the government to register for something or other. In essence, The SHRA had a lot of strikes going against it, perceptually speaking, from its very conception.

It was Marvel's self-proclaimed job, then, to fervently work against those stereotypes and establish the SHRA as a fundamentally beneficial and humane course of action even with all those preconceived negative notions we as a human race have had towards the idea of registering for the Big Bad Government. Even if they hadn't said from the outset that this was exactly what they'd do, they should be doing it anyway if they wanted this major event to have any narrative or moral significance at all, since otherwise it just turns into another Victimized Superheroes vs. Big Bad Government story.

It is my opinion, and apparently the opinion of the majority of people here at least, that they have utterly failed in this objective.
And "BINGO" was his name. Oh.

[DACMAN]

Boxers register their hands in the case they get into a bar fight and kill someone. The other day I had to go register just to tell my local goverment that I own a gun. People can't just run around and do whatever they want to outside of the law just because. There's a difference with being in the right place at the right time and helping someone who needs help. It's another to go looking for trouble so you can enforce the law the way you see fit with no accountablility.

There's is also a difference with having to register with the goverment just because of your skin color or religious practice. It is another to say you must register if you can kill people easily. Such as a boxer and his hands, or a man who owns guns, or a man who can shoot lazers from his eyes. But not only can he shoot lazers from his eyes, he's running around either robbing backs or stopping bank robbers with no regard of the law. If I took my gun and shot a couple of muggers right before they killed someone and then just ran away, the police would be looking all over for me. Even though I helped someone. They'd need me in court, they'd need me to testify. They need the law to work. Which is what the heroes want.

The only character that can operate fully outside of the law and accomplish his goal, is the Punisher. Which is to kill the guilty. He obviously doesn't need the system to do that. But it doesn't make it lawful.

[Harlekin]

Great analysis; yes Cassie or Cable being moles would make a helluva lot more sense, (ESPECIALLY for Cable whose desertion of Cap otherwise makes NO sense at all,) which probably means Millar isn't planning it. This is the guy who decided to turn nice girl Karen Page the love of Matt's life into a heroin shooting porn star who betrays Matt for another shot of H.

[...]

I can't trust Millar as a writer, (at least not with these characters; he does all right when he makes up the universe himself like Sin City unfortunately when working with already established characters he tends to re-write them into entirely new people who fit Sin City kind of themes instead of the heroes the fans originally fell in love with. But I also don't trust him to be forthright with the fans and I really would prefer there to be some kind of bad guy who's helped cloud the thinking of some of these people because then they could be redeemed which in the present course doesn't seem possible especially not with Tony.
Frank Miller. Mark Millar.

[Sloth7d]

^ Was wondering when someone was going to catch that.

[LadyMoira]

Whoops! Sorry about that slipup everyone...and yeah SHRA was ALWAYS going to have a bad name for it with the fans by definition. At least in CW 1 with the Stamford incident and its aftermath they were presenting a case for why reasonable people might support if even if you didn't agree. But after that the pro-SHRA people just devolved into fascist tactics. This is often how history works; look how understandable concerns after 9/11 brought about the shredding of the Constitution but it doesn't negate the damage this does to the MU or the bad taste it leaves in people's mouths to see formerly beloved heroes go bad.

[IronMan_2005]

Boxers register their hands in the case they get into a bar fight and kill someone. The other day I had to go register just to tell my local goverment that I own a gun. People can't just run around and do whatever they want to outside of the law just because. There's a difference with being in the right place at the right time and helping someone who needs help. It's another to go looking for trouble so you can enforce the law the way you see fit with no accountablility.

There's is also a difference with having to register with the goverment just because of your skin color or religious practice. It is another to say you must register if you can kill people easily. Such as a boxer and his hands, or a man who owns guns, or a man who can shoot lazers from his eyes. But not only can he shoot lazers from his eyes, he's running around either robbing backs or stopping bank robbers with no regard of the law. If I took my gun and shot a couple of muggers right before they killed someone and then just ran away, the police would be looking all over for me. Even though I helped someone. They'd need me in court, they'd need me to testify. They need the law to work. Which is what the heroes want.

The only character that can operate fully outside of the law and accomplish his goal, is the Punisher. Which is to kill the guilty. He obviously doesn't need the system to do that. But it doesn't make it lawful.

Post of the friggen month!! I agree 100%, Superheros need to register, it's not like thier civil liberties are being taken away, or like thier going to get the same treatment the Nazis gave the Jews.

Every cop, soldier, gun owner is registered with the government, superheroes should be no different.

[unstoppable]

well to speak for the Cap i'm all for his choices during Civil War

if i was a comic superhero i'd be against the registration too

[Sloth7d]

It's an assault on their civil liberties.
I would be against it too.

[Vanguard07]

It is completely different from owning a gun. Gun registration is about a choice. the SHRA is forcing you to register because of who you are which IS the same thing that the nazis did to the jews. The SHRA just hasnt gotten around to the rest of it yet.

[Sloth7d]

It would make more sense to have a law about not using your powers, period.
Rather than, if you have powers you now become a government lapdog.

[TheCorpulent1]

But then the government wouldn't be able to use the superhumans as weapons. No government would want that.

[Red]

Throughout the history of sociology and human rights, "registration" has always been a very dirty word that brings up a lot of uncomfortable memories.

Nazi Germany ordered all Jews to be registered and publicly identified some time before it escalated into flat-out concentration camps.

The South African apartheid government made laws forcing all black South Africans do be registered as a black citizen.

The list goes on...I mean, even an average person without a lot of historical background feels awkward at the mention of being forced by the government to register for something or other. In essence, The SHRA had a lot of strikes going against it, perceptually speaking, from its very conception.

It was Marvel's self-proclaimed job, then, to fervently work against those stereotypes and establish the SHRA as a fundamentally beneficial and humane course of action even with all those preconceived negative notions we as a human race have had towards the idea of registering for the Big Bad Government. Even if they hadn't said from the outset that this was exactly what they'd do, they should be doing it anyway if they wanted this major event to have any narrative or moral significance at all, since otherwise it just turns into another Victimized Superheroes vs. Big Bad Government story.

It is my opinion, and apparently the opinion of the majority of people here at least, that they have utterly failed in this objective. Instead of working against the stereotype of a morally bankrupt governmental state abusing its power and redefining morality and ethics to work in its own favor in the name of "the greater good," Marvel and Millar has instead trudged in full-barrel to embrace that mold for the SHRA and its supporters.

It'd be more disappointing if I hadn't predicted this would happen right from the first moment I heard about this series[/bitter].

Yes :up:

[Sloth7d]

But then the government wouldn't be able to use the superhumans as weapons. No government would want that.
Thus concluding that the government is evil.

[kainedamo]

If there was a real life superhero...

Let's say there was a fairly powerful real life superhero. No matter how rightous the actions of this hero, no matter how little he/she interfers in government affairs, you just know... you just KNOW the government would be kicking themselves thinking of ways to bring the hero under their control.

It would be the same if there was a real life superhero community. The government would seek to try and bring the heroes under their control.

[TheCorpulent1]

Thus concluding that the government is evil.
All governments are. :)

[Whirlysplat]

You didn't like V for Vendetta, did you?

Cap isn't being a dick, he's fighting for his beliefs. Tony deceived Cap first, and tranquilized two of his friends, too. Why should he want to listen to what he has to say at all?

Problem with V for Vendetta as a comic is when it originally appeared in Warrior it was a reaction to Thatchers Britain. Sadly the changes for the film did not work. Thatchers Britain was gone so it's "new" plot was disjointed.

- Whirly

[Whirlysplat]

All governments are. :)

As Churchill said Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time".

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

Y'know looking at this story I'm seeing Apocalypse manipulating a lot of this. the same way he manipulated stuff in "Fall of the Mutants" with the Mutant Registration act. He's always been the one who has wanted a war within the superhuman community to weed out the weak from the strong. Whereas in Fall of the Mutants he waged war between mutants, this time he's manipulating forces on a broader scale to get his civil war learning from his mistakes in the past.

Look at these plot points:

The Extremis virus Iron Man infected himself with that makes his armor an extension of himself and allows him to control of outside electronic devices. Kinda similar to the techno-organic virus Cable had to deal with for years. Perhaps this is a precursor to that virus. I'd think the writers would have Cable pick up on that.

I really think Tony's being manipulated by the extremis virus, the same way Archangel was manipulated by Apoc's modificiations. Remember, Apocalypse is a master of biochemistry and a lot of his victims have no idea he's controlling them.

Mutant Growth Hormone MGH seems like something Apoc would cook up. It's kind of similar to the way he modified the mutants who became his four horsemen.

The fact that the SHRA was proposed and passed. Could Apocalypse be manipulating members of congress or disguising himself as a member of Congress to get legislation is passed.

The Sheild agent whatever her name is . I truly believe she's Apocalypse in Disguise or being manipulated by him.

That being said I think Cap is on the right side of this, his character has always stood for freedom and justice regardless of the subtle politics transpiring around him. He smells a rat with this SHRA just like he smelled one with the MRA (Cap was one of the first to denounce the MRA when it was proposed in X-Men vs. Avengers during the trial of Magneto)(if you remember those books I'm taking you WAY BACK)

To me, I think Cap has to get out of debating partisan politics with Tony (Who I believe is being used like a pawn by Apocalypse, Red Skull or whoever) and see who the real puppet master is behind this conflict.

I could've sworn I responded to this already. Either way. Not to sound like a jerk, I just do anyhow. Upscale highly educated French just do. Sorry. :(

I don't think Apocalype would really be involved in this for those reasons. The technorganic virus wouldn't really be all that related to the current Iron Man condition. The armor doesn't really feed from Tony, it just works alongside Tony's mind, where the technorganic virus was totally independent and unusable at all. The only tie would be the technology. The Extremis virus itself isn't really a controlling thing either. It influences certain behaviours true (paranoia), but he hasn't shown much paranoia, and has no overall truly different qualities about him. The Extremis just seems to be giving the standard physical upgrade.

MGH could be cooked up by any run of the mill geneticist that can separate chemicals and such. And several scientists would do it for cash. I know two that would definitely do that personally.

Maria Hill was selected to be the head of SHIELD because of her ability to follow orders, and the fact she seems to have a shared distrust of "capes" which the UN stated they wanted under control. Plus, she has to have her head examined every few weeks, and would've been fixed by now.

As for the Cap/Tony debate. I've said it long ago, and a few times since. Neither ONE is right for the whole of it. At their original points, they were both agreeable, but as it stands, neither are "right." Both employ tactics and have views that shouldn't be agreed with from a standard moral standpoint.

We'll start with Cap. Cap holds a heavy conservative view. "Things have worked like this in the past, don't change anything," sort of view. He holds onto heavy traditions and is being extremely hardheaded about anything at the moment. He believes that superhumans give without desire for return, that being battlehardened, they can make correct decisions to help fix a world that basically refuses to fix itself. To undertake the task of helping those in trouble who can't help themselves. However, he also takes children, and basically FORCES them onto the frontline through guilt. That, and he knows that by taking a stance, he incites several OTHER superhumans to simply follow suit only because he's Captain America. Several of these people might not even want it, but will follow Cap just because. He also is definitely just getting in the way of the SHRA by starting conflicts. Most of these, if not all, problems that Cap "fixes" could be fixed by the SHRA, but since they have to worry so much about his cell, they can't, and Cap gets all the credit since the SHRA is understaffed. And like I said, he uses a lot of guilt. He could've easily taken a political grandstand, and with that same charisma, helped sway the mass majority of the US into revoking the SHRA, and returning things to normal. Since the leaders only vote for it because the mass public wants it. Remember, the humans in charge only worry about votes (I'll get to that later.) So he basically is going against regular humans and saying, "Hey, we know better than you."

Now Iron Man. Not right, and not wrong either. His view is his own like Captain America's. Obviously stressing a "liberal" standpoint. (Liberal is actually the perfect mix between Libertarianism and Communism. Either way.) He believes the government should be involved with the superhuman protection of the humans he wants to protect. Definitely the misunderstood one of the two, people always write him off as "Wanting power," or being a "Government lackey." Neither of those would really explain why he does what he does if people read the books and took a logical view at it. Iron Man does this BECAUSE of guilt. In Civil War, he believes that he and his generation give kids the say so to get powers, throw on costumes, and carry out justice as they see fit. Also, if you read his book, his creation gone unchecked, was basically unstoppable since there was no way to really take them down without him, resulting in deaths and tons of money in property damage. All he seems to want is to bring about a fair way of keeping superhumans in check. That being said, his methods are wrong ethically. Logic once agreed with his methods, but no longer does. He has now gone against his initial idea, and has begun the growth of a superhuman force that can be everywhere at once. While the initial idea is okay, the execution and purpose is wrong. Superhumans shouldn't be crafted like WMD's. There's no experience, nothing for them to decide on. They're basically no smarter than a smartbomb. They know what to hit, and do it. The original SHRA was more of a police force, but has since become a military force bent on full control of things. He once asked for volunteers, but now is forcing ALL beings with superhuman traits to register and be hero's, whether they like it or not. While THAT idea isn't exactly as different as Cap's (Being that he thinks all superhumans have the responsibility to protect regular humans), he takes it to a level that is extreme. The superhumans shouldn't be involved with international affairs, and shouldn't be forced to do things they don't want to do. We don't force people to be soldiers or policemen, why should we force them to do this as well? A volunteer force that the SHRA was a perfectly logical idea. People that wanted to registered, were trained, and were deployed in a fashion that was both humane and able to save tons more lives. But he can't be so underpowered that he can't go around without villans. It just was built to not make sense.

Neither side is right or wrong, and neither side is solving any problems really.

That being said, I have to get back to the regular humans I was talking about, and my dissatisfaction with Marvel about it. See, they're painting that regular humans are far too dumb to make good decisions, or moral decisions for that matter. That regular humans only do things that benefit them, where superhumans do not suffer this flaw, that they must be above being human and escape the human condition. That with superhumanity, there is an instant sense of supermorality. I believe one of the only true superhero's to ever portray the human condition was Booster Gold. He was a superhuman that saved lives and such, but was also in things for himself, and wasn't absolutely selfless. And while I think that some superhumans could be like that, definitely not all of them. Regular humans have selfless people, but the mass majority isn't like that, so why should superhumans? So, that being said, if superhuman's can make good decisions for humans and themselves, shouldn't it be fair to say that regular humans are capable of it too? Or are regular humans basically barbarians that have no higher thinking such as superhumans?

[Whirlysplat]

I could've sworn I responded to this already. Either way. Not to sound like a jerk, I just do anyhow. Upscale highly educated French just do. Sorry. :(


It's not because you're French it's because you think the Solar system ends at the last planet and not the Oort cloud.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

It's not because you're French it's because you think the Solar system ends at the last planet and not the Oort cloud.

- Whirly

The king of the technicality has nothing else to blast me on? Goes to show without Wikipedia having an official topic of how to bash me, you're not worth much.

[Whirlysplat]

The king of the technicality has nothing else to blast me on? Goes to show without Wikipedia having an official topic of how to bash me, you're not worth much.

I don't need any help bashing you when you're wrong all the time.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

I don't need any help bashing you when you're wrong all the time.

- Whirly

You know, you always say that, but you never have any proof. You just fill up entire threads and kill them with Jplaya level arguments.

[Whirlysplat]

You know, you always say that, but you never have any proof. You just fill up entire threads and kill them with Jplaya level arguments.

Well I know that the last planet isn't the end of the solar system as you said I know it's the Oort cloud. I don't need proof. but if you want I'll do a web search.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

Well I know that the last planet isn't the end of the solar system as you said I know it's the Oort cloud. I don't need proof. but if you want I'll do a web search.

- Whirly

You mean like with all the other information you have? Sure, go for it. It'll be the only thing you'll probably ever be able to prove.

[Whirlysplat]

You mean like with all the other information you have? Sure, go for it. It'll be the only thing you'll probably ever be able to prove.

So you admit you're wrong.

It's a start.

So much for Mistress of Physics.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

So you admit you're wrong.

It's a start.

- Whirly

Pulling things out of context and putting words in other people's mouths isn't the sign of a good intelligence.
Oh, and I am the Mistress of Physics. Your lack of proof proves it.

[Whirlysplat]

Pulling things out of context and putting words in other people's mouths isn't the sign of a good intelligence.
Oh, and I am the Mistress of Physics. Your lack of proof proves it.

heres some proof.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=end+of+the+solar+system+Oort+Cloud&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

I could post your inital post next to it. :)

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

heres some proof.

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=end+of+the+solar+system+Oort+Cloud&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

I could post your inital post next to it. :)

- Whirly


WOW!! You were actually capable of proving ONE point out of the dozens you make!!! I'm so proud!! Who's my big boy?

[Whirlysplat]

WOW!! You were actually capable of proving ONE point out of the dozens you make!!! I'm so proud!! Who's my big boy?

lol I proved all the others, you just changed your stance to try and cover your failings.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

lol I proved all the others, you just changed your stance to try and cover your failings.

- Whirly

Actually, that's YOUR way of doing things. I actually stay on topic, and have corrected your out of context arguing style in the past.

Come on, be grown up and admit it.

[Whirlysplat]

Actually, that's YOUR way of doing things. I actually stay on topic, and have corrected your out of context arguing style in the past.

Come on, be grown up and admit it.

Lol, you are constantly wrong, the onus is on you to prove things as it's your posts that keep showing you up.

Be a woman change your mind again.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

Lol, you are constantly wrong, the onus is on you to prove things as it's your posts that keep showing you up.

Be a woman change your mind again.

- Whirly

Sorry, I'm not flimsy, I have a strong will. Either way, you have to prove my posts are wrong. But since you can't...

[Whirlysplat]

Sorry, I'm not flimsy, I have a strong will. Either way, you have to prove my posts are wrong. But since you can't...

See you admit you're wrong then change your mind. You're funny.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

See you admit you're wrong then change your mind. You're funny.

- Whirly

No, that's you making up things that aren't even in that post. But since that's all you really have...

[Sloth7d]

You guys are like an old married couple.:cwink:

[LouFerignoDemon]

You guys are like an old married couple.:cwink:


His IQ is about fifty points too low for me to even date out of boredom. lol I don't date B1 Class intelligence.

[Whirlysplat]

No, that's you making up things that aren't even in that post. But since that's all you really have...

Lol, I don't need to make things up for someone that thinks the end of the Solar System is the last Planet.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

Lol, I don't need to make things up for someone that thinks the end of the Solar System is the last Planet.

- Whirly

And yet you do.

[Whirlysplat]

His IQ is about fifty points too low for me to even date out of boredom. lol I don't date B1 Class intelligence.

Lol. Not Lol capital after a full stop, lol. Another personal outburst lol.

- Whirly

[Whirlysplat]

And yet you do.

Don't start a sentence with and lol it's wrong.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

Don't start a sentence with and lol it's wrong.

- Whirly

Actually, if you were going to correct my grammar, it should have been:

"Don't start a sentence with "And"." Then laugh and say, "You do not do that because it is wrong."

But hey, nobody ever accused you of being good with literature.

[LadyMoira]

Perhaps you guys should take this to your own private thread?:whatever:

[LouFerignoDemon]

Lol. Not Lol capital after a full stop, lol. Another personal outburst lol.

- Whirly

Actually, "lol" being a phrase meant to show laughter doesn't fall under the normal rules of grammar.

[Whirlysplat]

Actually, if you were going to correct my grammar, it should have been:

"Don't start a sentence with "And"." Then laugh and say, "You do not do that because it is wrong."

But hey, nobody ever accused you of being good with literature.

Lol, it works both ways otherwise my spell checker would highlight it, which it doesn't.

Wrong again!

- Whirly

[Whirlysplat]

Actually, "lol" being a phrase meant to show laughter doesn't fall under the normal rules of grammar.

Actually it does for most people. Lol.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

Actually it does for most people. Lol.

- Whirly

Not really, as it would lead to an incomplete sentence. Anybody who knows grammar, knows that.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Lol, it works both ways otherwise my spell checker would highlight it, which it doesn't.

Wrong again!

- Whirly

So you admit that the only reason you spell only semi-good, is because you rely on a spell checker?

[Whirlysplat]

So you admit that the only reason you spell only semi-good, is because you rely on a spell checker?

I often use a spell checker. You should try it. It shouldn't be semi-good in that sentence by the way.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

I often use a spell checker. You should try it. It shouldn't be semi-good in that sentence by the way.

- Whirly

Only because you can't spell on your own? And here you are blasting me? I often wondered if you used a spell checker, since lots of smaller words tend to be wrong. Probably has something to do with your dyslexia. And here you are blasting someone who spells from memory, when you yourself cannot spell?

Super lame. :down

[Whirlysplat]

Only because you can't spell on your own? And here you are blasting me? I often wondered if you used a spell checker, since lots of smaller words tend to be wrong. Probably has something to do with your dyslexia. And here you are blasting someone who spells from memory, when you yourself cannot spell?

Super lame. :down

I sometimes use a spell checker, as I say you should try it. :) No I correct you (I don't blast) because you're wrong so often. Often with things like "your" and "you're" and "semi-good", which are not spelling errors but errors in grammar. Comma use before but etc.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

I sometimes use a spell checker, as I say you should try it. :) No I correct you (I don't blast) because you're wrong so often. Often with things like "your" and "you're" and "semi-good", which are not spelling errors but errors in grammar. Comma use before but etc.

- Whirly

Changing your mind there? You said you often did, now you only sometimes do it?

I smell lies and inadequacy.

[Whirlysplat]

Changing your mind there? You said you often did, now you only sometimes do it?

I smell lies and inadequacy.

Nope sometimes and often are both indicators I don't always use one. However, you should.
"Lies", again you try to make it personal, you're a little sad but still funny.


- Whirly

[Tropico]

I sometimes use a spell checker, as I say you should try it. :) No I correct you (I don't blast) because you're wrong so often. Often with things like "your" and "you're" and "semi-good", which are not spelling errors but errors in grammar. Comma use before but etc.

- Whirly

C'mon guys, still an argument over spelling and such? You have to realize this is scraping the bottom of the argument barrel. It seems cool for the two people in the argument, but everyone seeing it only sees it as pathetic (no offense! :o). You're both smart and knowledgeable people. I'm not telling you guys to stop arguing but to forget all the name calling and telling each other "you're dumb" 'cause neither of you is. Leave the previous arguments behind, please, and I'm sure you'll find that you can have some serious discussions and even agree on stuff. Please? Pretty please with pudding on top?:D

[Whirlysplat]

C'mon guys, still an argument over spelling and such? You have to realize this is scraping the bottom of the argument barrel. It seems cool for the two people in the argument, but everyone seeing it only sees it as pathetic (no offense! :o). You're both smart and knowledgeable people. I'm not telling you guys to stop arguing but to forget all the name calling and telling each other "you're dumb" 'cause neither of you is. Leave the previous arguments behind, please, and I'm sure you'll find that you can have some serious discussions and even agree on stuff. Please? Pretty please with pudding on top?:D

I'm not really arguing mate. :) Trust me on this.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

I'm not really arguing mate. :) Trust me on this.

- Whirly

Indeed. You're behaving like Jplaya.

[Whirlysplat]

Indeed. You're behaving like Jplaya.

Sorry, what do you mean?

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

Sorry, what do you mean?

- Whirly

Umm... That you're behaving like Jplaya. I know you're dyslexic, but it wasn't that hard of a sentence.

[Whirlysplat]

Umm... That you're behaving like Jplaya. I know you're dyslexic, but it wasn't that hard of a sentence.

I see, you still haven't clarified what you mean.

Proof and an explanation.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

I see, you still haven't clarified what you mean.

Proof and an explanation.

- Whirly

Explanation: How you argue and add things as you go along as you obviously haven't thought ahead.

Proof: Provided in logical argument. Early on in his "career" here on the Hype, Jplaya made all sorts of accusations and statements with zero proof while basically saying he was smarter than the person he was arguing with. You behave and act in the same way.

[Whirlysplat]

Explanation: How you argue and add things as you go along as you obviously haven't thought ahead.

Proof: Provided in logical argument. Early on in his "career" here on the Hype, Jplaya made all sorts of accusations and statements with zero proof while basically saying he was smarter than the person he was arguing with. You behave and act in the same way.

So what are you saying?

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

So what are you saying?

- Whirly

That you behave like Jplaya. Does anybody else find it disturbing that I have to say the same thing over and over because this guy obviously can't read and understand?

[Whirlysplat]

I'm waiting :).

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

I know you have a learning diability, but this is ridiculous.

[Whirlysplat]

I know you have a learning diability, but this is ridiculous.

So what are you saying?

- Whirly

[Whirlysplat]

Waiting.

:)

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

So what are you saying?

- Whirly

That you have a learning disability to the point that it's ridiculous.

[Whirlysplat]

That you have a learning disability to the point that it's ridiculous.

So what are you saying?

- Whirly

[kainedamo]

That you have a learning disability to the point that it's ridiculous.


I think you should shutup now. I have dyspraxia, which is similar to dyslexia, and you're being quite offensive to those that have learning disabilities in your attempts to insult Whirly.

[Whirlysplat]

Waiting

- Whirly

[Whirlysplat]

I think you should shutup now. I have dyspraxia, which is similar to dyslexia, and you're being quite offensive to those that have learning disabilities in your attempts to insult Whirly.

Thank you Kaine.

- Whirly

[Tropico]

Thank you Kaine.

- Whirly

Dude! I thought he was saying that it was insulting to people like that to be compared to you!:wow:

[Whirlysplat]

Dude! I thought he was saying that it was insulting to people like that to be compared to you!:wow:

No, read his post my friend.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

I think you should shutup now. I have dyspraxia, which is similar to dyslexia, and you're being quite offensive to those that have learning disabilities in your attempts to insult Whirly.

I don't mind you. You post just fine despite the problem. However, the "shortcomings and problems" insult was started by him, so I'm just continuing it.

But I do apologize for attacking you inadvertantly, as it was fully unintended.

[LouFerignoDemon]

So what are you saying?

- Whirly

That you can't read correctly.

No offense to kainedamo, who's shown excellent reading skills as to not pull things out of posts that aren't there.

[Whirlysplat]

I don't mind you. You post just fine despite the problem. However, the "shortcomings and problems" insult was started by him, so I'm just continuing it.

But I do apologize for attacking you inadvertantly, as it was fully unintended.

Lol. I've been trying to help you. I only highlighted errors on your part you have not been able to do that to me, so instead you are rude.

- Whirly

[Tropico]

No, read his post my friend.

- Whirly

LOL, I did!:D It can totally be taken that way! He's telling Mistress to stop calling you impaired because it insults them. Read it over, LOL!!!:D:woot:

[Whirlysplat]

LOL, I did!:D It can totally be taken that way! He's telling Mistress to stop calling you impaired because it insults them. Read it over, LOL!!!:D:woot:

It can lol, but that's not his intention. Neither dyspraxia or dyslexia affect IQ, a certain Scientist who came up with the theory of relativity was dyslexic.

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

Lol. I've been trying to help you. I only highlighted errors on your part you have not been able to do that to me, so instead you are rude.

- Whirly

Talk about bending the truth. :whatever:


And by correcting my "errors" you create countless amounts of your own. And as for rude? Calling me that is quite hypocritical. I can at least admit I'm rude.

[Whirlysplat]

Talk about bending the truth. :whatever:


And by correcting my "errors" you create countless amounts of your own. And as for rude? Calling me that is quite hypocritical. I can at least admit I'm rude.

So where are they? Lol, these errors.

Yes, you're rude :).

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

So where are they? Lol, these errors.

- Whirly
I'll pull one out of your book.

"All over the place. There are far too many to count." And not provide proof out of sheer laziness on my behalf.

As you are also rude.

[Whirlysplat]

I'll pull one out of your book.

"All over the place. There are far too many to count." And not provide proof out of sheer laziness on my behalf.

As you are also rude.

Proof please. :)

Me rude :confused: Never! If I was though it would be funny like this.

I bet you thought it was just coincidence that your parents had the same surnames before they married?

- Whirly

[LouFerignoDemon]

Proof please. :)

Me rude :confused: Never! If I was though it would be funny like this.

I bet you thought it was just coincidence that your parents had the same surnames before they married?

- Whirly

You though? You DO use spell check a lot. lol

Either way, upon higher authority, I've been advised to simply place you on ignore, as your trolling will not cease. This is not a retreat, this is simply me saying, "I'm smarter than to argue with trolls."

[Whirlysplat]

You though? You DO use spell check a lot. lol

Either way, upon higher authority, I've been advised to simply place you on ignore, as your trolling will not cease. This is not a retreat, this is simply me saying, "I'm smarter than to argue with trolls."

Right......... Whatever............

You're a message board freak. I know it's hard to accept the truth, but the truth it is, and accept it!

- Whirly

[Jplaya2023]

That you behave like Jplaya. Does anybody else find it disturbing that I have to say the same thing over and over because this guy obviously can't read and understand?


Now your making sheeit up again. I'm not the one who tries to stupidly argue rock lee trains harder than goku

[LadyMoira]

I've been wondering if Cap isn't going to have to surrender at some point to stop the bloodshed; and since he's not going to sign off on the SHRA that might mean Cap would become a political prisoner while Baron Zemo and Bullseye are out on the streets. How would that be for sick irony?

[i'm Spider-Man]

Now your making sheeit up again. I'm not the one who tries to stupidly argue rock lee trains harder than goku

oh good. you're still here.

[LouFerignoDemon]

I've been wondering if Cap isn't going to have to surrender at some point to stop the bloodshed; and since he's not going to sign off on the SHRA that might mean Cap would become a political prisoner while Baron Zemo and Bullseye are out on the streets. How would that be for sick irony?

I don't know about irony. It would be ironic if one of them was put as the new Captain America only because he forced Tony to take such drastic measures and recruit villans, and then have one of the villans kill in his name.

[LadyMoira]

I doubt Tony would let any of his villain army take Steve's title...I think despite it all Tony still has a little too much respect for Cap than that. Not to mention it would further alienate those members of the SH community on the fence and probably not go over too well with the general public either.

[Tropico]

I doubt Tony would let any of his villain army take Steve's title...I think despite it all Tony still has a little too much respect for Cap than that. Not to mention it would further alienate those members of the SH community on the fence and probably not go over too well with the general public either.

As far as I know, Tony has no authority as to who uses the Captain America name. Captain America himself doesn't have the authority. The name belongs to the US govt. and it wouldn't be the first time they've stripped Steve of the name if they did it now. Tony can B!+ch and whine all he wants but if the govt. decides to give Taskmaster (for example) a star spangled shield and Capt. America costume he'll have to learn to accept it.

[LadyMoira]

As far as I know, Tony has no authority as to who uses the Captain America name. Captain America himself doesn't have the authority. The name belongs to the US govt. and it wouldn't be the first time they've stripped Steve of the name if they did it now. Tony can B!+ch and whine all he wants but if the govt. decides to give Taskmaster (for example) a star spangled shield and Capt. America costume he'll have to learn to accept it.

But would they be arrogant enough and stupid enough to do it?

Wow some questions just answer themselves don't they?

[Tropico]

Actually, it would make more sense for the govt. to have taken away the mantle from Steve; he's gone AWOL and is actually going against what MU America stands for at the moment (or at least, it's govt.). It makes no sense for them not to have made a public announcement where they strip Steve of his title and announce a new Capt. America or that they're looking for one.

[LadyMoira]

Yeah but again it sends a message to the superhero community that the government is out to make them essentially serfs who can be seen as interchangeable...and the dangers of giving the "Captain America" title to a known criminal are clear as day...but considering what SHIELD's been up to under Maria Hill we can't put it past them...they'd probably figure it's better to have a Captain America with a brain implant that they can be sure to control, even with a criminal past. Or at least one they think they're in control of.

[Tropico]

Yeah but again it sends a message to the superhero community that the government is out to make them essentially serfs who can be seen as interchangeable...and the dangers of giving the "Captain America" title to a known criminal are clear as day...but considering what SHIELD's been up to under Maria Hill we can't put it past them...they'd probably figure it's better to have a Captain America with a brain implant that they can be sure to control, even with a criminal past. Or at least one they think they're in control of.

This is one of the problems I have with Marvel injecting "reality" into their comics. It irks me how they use some but then we have to suspend disbelief in regards to the logical real world ramifications. The govt. isn't doing this for the benefit of the heroes, but for the people in general. If you want to have the people with you, like most of them are thanks to Stamford, it doesn't make sense to let America's symbol be the one that goes against the establishment. Sure, it makes sense for us readers to have someone as identifiable as Captain America on one side and still have his mantle, you know, the "true" spirit of America is going up against the evil govt. (which in Marvel's case, it usually is :D). Using real world common sense? It falls apart. You're letting a seed of doubt be planted by doing it instead of erradicating a potential problem (not to mention PR nightmare) before it gets out of hand. They don't have to name a villain. Heck, they could paint Tony's armor red, white & blue and declare him the spirit of the current America. He's worked for the govt. before and he's the main defender of the SHRA side, it shouldn't be that far fetched.

[LadyMoira]

I guest we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one Tropico...though, this whole thing sounds like a future storyline in the Captain America books...

[Kitsune]

The way this should have been handles is this. On person, preferably with no secret ID to hide, refuses to register and then turns himself into the authorities. He then fights the law through the leagle system. But that wouldn't make a good comic, so they don't do it.

[Tropico]

I guest we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one Tropico...though, this whole thing sounds like a future storyline in the Captain America books...

Don't worry about it.:D You actually made me realize that point about Cap and him still running around with the Captain America mantle. And it's just another incongruent point in a long list I've had since this all started. A lot of the things that are happening don't make sense to me, but I've already resigned myself that Marvel will play this their way and not necessarily in a way that would follow common sense. And you're entitled to your opinion and to disagree with me; I have no problems with that.:D:up: I like discussions, it's when people start throwing around words like retard, moron and other offensive language just because they disagree with you that I can't help but answer in kind.:(

[LadyMoira]

Glad to hear that Tropico. Not to name names but I think some of the fights I've seen on this board have gotten kinda ugly in the past. And really if either one of us cared that much about common sense we wouldn't be comic book fans now would we?!?:rolleyes:

[Darthphere]

What are you trying to say?

[Tropico]

That although cold pizza is still delicious, the same can't be said about spaghetti.:(

[LadyMoira]

Some people would argue that it is if it's served with peanut butter...

[LouFerignoDemon]

Yeah but again it sends a message to the superhero community that the government is out to make them essentially serfs who can be seen as interchangeable...and the dangers of giving the "Captain America" title to a known criminal are clear as day...but considering what SHIELD's been up to under Maria Hill we can't put it past them...they'd probably figure it's better to have a Captain America with a brain implant that they can be sure to control, even with a criminal past. Or at least one they think they're in control of.

Given how they've done that to Thor...

However, the title of "Captain America," like stated before, belongs solely to the United States Government, and can be placed on others at their leisure, as you well know. For what it stands, I'll agree with Tropico on the idea that they should have already done this, and named US Agent, or someone new or something with the title of Captain America already. Captain America is the identity, not the person. Steve Rogers will ALWAYS be Steve Rogers, whether he's Captain America, Captain, Nomad, or whatever he goes by for whatever new reason. I believe that the name is unimportant, where the man is. In saying that, I believe that the mantle of Captain America is misplaced on Steve at the moment, and should be placed elsewhere.

[LouFerignoDemon]

This is one of the problems I have with Marvel injecting "reality" into their comics. It irks me how they use some but then we have to suspend disbelief in regards to the logical real world ramifications. The govt. isn't doing this for the benefit of the heroes, but for the people in general. If you want to have the people with you, like most of them are thanks to Stamford, it doesn't make sense to let America's symbol be the one that goes against the establishment. Sure, it makes sense for us readers to have someone as identifiable as Captain America on one side and still have his mantle, you know, the "true" spirit of America is going up against the evil govt. (which in Marvel's case, it usually is :D). Using real world common sense? It falls apart. You're letting a seed of doubt be planted by doing it instead of erradicating a potential problem (not to mention PR nightmare) before it gets out of hand. They don't have to name a villain. Heck, they could paint Tony's armor red, white & blue and declare him the spirit of the current America. He's worked for the govt. before and he's the main defender of the SHRA side, it shouldn't be that far fetched.

That would be pure f'ing awesome!! Iron Man for Captain America!! The future of patriotism is here in the symbol of future tech or something.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Glad to hear that Tropico. Not to name names but I think some of the fights I've seen on this board have gotten kinda ugly in the past. And really if either one of us cared that much about common sense we wouldn't be comic book fans now would we?!?:rolleyes:

If you have something to say, say it to Darthphere's face! :cmad:

[3dman27]

I Though The Goverment Sold The Codename Captain America To Steve Rogers Permanently In Exchange For The Black Red And White "captain" Costume Later Assigned to John Walker As The USAGENT:star:

[3dman27]

bump

[Willowhugger]

Well Captain America got 50 people killed but no one remembers that now that he's dead.