Captain America has lost his moral authority

[Willowhugger]

Captain America has lost his moral authority....

I was supporting Captain America only reluctantly after we started to see Gulags, hunting down superheroes, freeing supercriminals and all the other stuff that comes from overwhelming government craziness in action.

Now...I've come to the conclusion Captain America is a dick.

Let's face it. Captain America is easy to root for. However, his behavior since the start of this has become borderline insane. Let's review some of his wonderful tactical decisions upfront.

* He finds out about the Registration's clause about hunting down bad guys, is nearly gunned down. Does he report this to the media? Retire? No, he declares WAR.
* He recruits a bunch of kids and tells them not You need to go lay low and retire from this but "Abandon your families and work with me in a gurilla war that has no definite end" (it's FEDERAL LAW moron-they'll be on the run for the rest of their lives).
* He expects Hank Pym to join with him on this bizarro crusade of his and live his life on the run too.
* He dismisses the fact that Peter Parker has a VERY GOOD reason for supporting Registration and made a heartfelt decision based on the idea it was for MONEY.

That especially bugs me and shows me Captain America is a no down, lying, dirty ingrate whom apparently has no faith in his friends and no judge of character. He turned his back on them and apparently can't understand there's MERIT to the position.

* His words towards Peter during Issue 3# are beyond the pale and frankly of a dirtbag that I wish Spidey had pounded within an inch of his life. Captain America has NO idea what this kind of problem is.
* His cheap shot at Iron Man also removes any semblance of moral authority the man has.

Who the hell does Captain America think he's fighting anyway? Nazis? He's fighting a democratically created LAW that's about people no longer being allowed to be vigilantes. It's always been outlawed before and he's never been beating up Police for going after Spiderman. No, apparently his ego can't take the idea that HE'S outlawed and instead he dismisses the others as traitors.

His behavior is increasingly sickening.

[The Leaguer]

This thread is sickening.

[Joker]

I totally disagree with every single one of your points

[The Leaguer]

I only had one.

[Vanguard07]

I disagree wholeheartedly. The registration act is a mistake. Cap is right to be fighting it.

People have a right to privacy. the SHRA is just the first step towards fascism.

Maybe the act alone could be acceptable if the MU government could be trusted even one tiny bit but look at their track record. Look at the Xavier institute, once a haven for mutants, now practically a concentration camp.
Now the government is backing known supervillains and demonizing heroes.
They're sending shield agents out to arrest people for being good samaritans. They're making it a federal offense to be a good human being unless you're a registered good human being.
What if a guy who takes karate lessons stops a mugging? are they gonna throw him in prison for being an unregistered combatant?

First it's people with powers and masks, then it's people with powers, then it's people with skills. Eventually it'll just be people.
"noone was left to speak out when they came for me"

Cap may have made strategic mistakes because he was naive about his friends loyalties but morally he's absolutely in the right. His comments are the result of a highly emotionally charged conflict and him lashing out because he's hurt by the percieved betrayals by his friends who honestly should know better. Harsh words dont make him a bad person.

and a vote doesnt make a bad idea less bad.
Hitler was elected remember? This law is just another mistake that'll have horrible results.

[Willowhugger]

Well lets look at it this way. Captain America is unwilling to talk to people he's gone to war with on dozens of occasions and is perfectly willing to beat the crap out of them....including Spiderman whom he should KNOW would never lay a finger on him unless he threw the first punch.

The way Captain America is behaving (Crazy) it's no wonder he sided with Tony (wrong as Tony is).

We need someone whose against BOTH of these losers.

I'd LIKE to believe in Captain America but all I can tell is the fact that he doesn't want to show the REAL Enemy (Maria Hill, whomever ordered Nitro to blow up Stanford) but instead paint it black and white. It's not.

[Kevin]

This thread is sickening.:up:

[The Leaguer]

Well lets look at it this way. Captain America is unwilling to talk to people he's gone to war with on dozens of occasions and is perfectly willing to beat the crap out of them....including Spiderman whom he should KNOW would never lay a finger on him unless he threw the first punch.

The way Captain America is behaving (Crazy) it's no wonder he sided with Tony (wrong as Tony is).

We need someone whose against BOTH of these losers.
Like Captain America.

[Willowhugger]

Like Captain America.

I would like to know where he's gone at this point. It's like he's been exchanged with his Ultimates counterpart to be perfectly honest.

[The Leaguer]

No, ultimate Captain America is still in the Ultimates. Captain America is in his own title, and Civil War, and New Avengers, and a few other cameos.

[JackBauer]

* He dismisses the fact that Peter Parker has a VERY GOOD reason for supporting Registration and made a heartfelt decision based on the idea it was for MONEY.


honestly? I stopped reading after this RIDICULOUS argument, because if there is one hero who has all the reasons to go against the registration, it's Spider-Man.

[Tropico]

There's an official Civil War thread. After CW#3 came out about four more threads for things that could have been discussed in the same thread have sprung up. Then we get another thread like this from a person that doesn't even get what Cap is about. Why? WHY?!?!:confused:

[LouFerignoDemon]

I agree, and disagree. But most people will simply disagree simply without thinking about it because you blasted Cap there pal.

[Willowhugger]

honestly? I stopped reading after this RIDICULOUS argument, because if there is one hero who has all the reasons to go against the registration, it's Spider-Man.

Well that's the point, Spiderman has been defensive his entire life and what has it got him? Let's see......his CHILD MURDERED BY THE GREEN GOBLIN. Frankly, were I him, I too would look into the option of having friends to turn to and the authorities to protect his family as opposed to having nowhere to run to.

I bought the belief he wants to be a person appreciated for what he's done. Great issue.

Captain's belief that being unmasked is bad? WHEN HE IS A PUBLIC SUPERHERO...the height of hypocrisy.

[The Cleric]

how so? just because he is unmasked doesnt mean he believes its the best thing to do, or the right thing. hell, he is the only one thinking like an american. its all about freedom, and it is obvious that he knows the structure of the government, or the powers that be, to not fully trust them. to serve the people, which is what he is doing rightfully by NOT being monitered or controlled. even more important, not making every heros loved one a target to the countless villians who appear daily. how can you honestly think that being forced to reveal urself is right when you live by the ideas of what America is about?

[Ookami_Wolf1]

Captain America, Steve Rogers, is not arguing or fighting to protect his own name. He is fighting for those who have enemies that will hunted down and kill those that they care for. Hell Norman Osborn is now annoyed because everyone is going to be able to beat down on MJ and Aunt May before he can, due to Peter's going public. Being forced to do one thing or another is not a choice. Freedom is about choosing which path you wish to take, not having it shoved down your throat.

[Willowhugger]

:downCaptain America, Steve Rogers, is not arguing or fighting to protect his own name. He is fighting for those who have enemies that will hunted down and kill those that they care for. Hell Norman Osborn is now annoyed because everyone is going to be able to beat down on MJ and Aunt May before he can, due to Peter's going public. Being forced to do one thing or another is not a choice. Freedom is about choosing which path you wish to take, not having it shoved down your throat.

That's the crazy part though. Who exactly is going to have this problem? Daredevil? Spiderman?

The two heroes WHOM ALREADY NOW HAVE PUBLIC IDENTITIES?

The Young Avengers have a bigger problem in the fact they're being ripped from their lives.

It's not like SHIELD didn't know their idenities anyway.

[The Cleric]

its about making it public, not into shield database.
who will have that problem? lets see.... how about every hero who puts a villian away. that villain would say "revenge will be mine"!!! how does he get? maybe would be smart enough to attack indirectly, by spying on the hero, see who the hero "chills" with, then whacking that person. in conclusion, EVERY HERO HAS THAT PROBLEM

[Ookami_Wolf1]

:down

That's the crazy part though. Who exactly is going to have this problem? Daredevil? Spiderman?

The two heroes WHOM ALREADY NOW HAVE PUBLIC IDENTITIES?

The Young Avengers have a bigger problem in the fact they're being ripped from their lives.

It's not like SHIELD didn't know their idenities anyway.

Which Daredevil, Matt Murdock, or the new Daredevil? So you think that younger people have no right to decide what path they will take? Welcome to fascist-ville, population: YOU!

[Marcdachamp]

You didn't like V for Vendetta, did you?

Cap isn't being a dick, he's fighting for his beliefs. Tony deceived Cap first, and tranquilized two of his friends, too. Why should he want to listen to what he has to say at all?

[The Cleric]

willowhugger doeasn't seem to understand that.

[villejo]

I'm with Cap all the way, and I reall can't understand Spidey's decison. He is totally different from Senators and judges.
1. He isn't an elected official involved with politics.
2. He is the one who kicks ass and takes names, he does the dirty work, and everyone he puts away will want his head on a platter, instead of the judge who found him guilty (Aunt May doesn't know what she's talking about).
3. He has supervillians to worry about, and now it's not just GG, and Venom, it's now anyone who can get info from Shield.

[villejo]

You didn't like V for Vendetta, did you?

Cap isn't being a dick, he's fighting for his beliefs. Tony deceived Cap first, and tranquilized two of his friends, too. Why should he want to listen to what he has to say at all?

:up: True that.:up:

[Kool-Aid]

You didn't like V for Vendetta, did you?

Cap isn't being a dick, he's fighting for his beliefs. Tony deceived Cap first, and tranquilized two of his friends, too. Why should he want to listen to what he has to say at all?


Why can't he fight with words? Why does he have to try and beat up his friends that he's "trying to protect"?

[Willowhugger]

I loved V For Vendetta

However, the fact is that I don't necessarily believe Captain America has reason to believe it's degenerated to that point yet and he seems to show a remarkable lack of trust in his friends that he normally trusted to save the world.

[Marcdachamp]

Why can't he fight with words? Why does he have to try and beat up his friends that he's "trying to protect"?
It's hard to fight with words when you've been deceived by those so-called "friends" and you're surrounded by men with guns.

[GyLocke]

I kinda agree with WH here.

And I never understood why the police is not shooting at viligantes in the first place.

[Wyrminarrd]

Captain America is wrong. If he has a problem with a law that was passed by congress and the senate and signed by the president then he should have taken the matter to the courts. If the law is a violation of the constitution then the supreme court would throw it out and it would be a dead issue.

You don´t get to pick and chose the laws you live by and for better of for worse the SHRA is a law and anyone who claims to be protecting people from law breakers and villians should obey.

If a hero doesn´t want to comply with the SHRA law then that hero should either retire or leave the country.

[Willowhugger]

I don't even mind Captain America living as an outlaw. He's done it before.

However, he shouldn't be trying to go to war with people who choose to LIVE within the law.

[Harlekin]

Take it to the courts? Did you miss Civil War #1? They wouldn't have given him the chance.

[Harlekin]

* He finds out about the Registration's clause about hunting down bad guys, is nearly gunned down. Does he report this to the media? Retire? No, he declares WAR.
A) Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. Retirement would and should be the last thing Captain America does.
B) The media? Are you kidding me? S.H.I.E.L.D. has the media in the bag.
C) Logical conclusion? He fights against the system.

* He recruits a bunch of kids and tells them not You need to go lay low and retire from this but "Abandon your families and work with me in a gurilla war that has no definite end" (it's FEDERAL LAW moron-they'll be on the run for the rest of their lives).
I'll give you this because Cap was against the forming of the Young Avengers in the first place.

* He expects Hank Pym to join with him on this bizarro crusade of his and live his life on the run too.
Because it's such a silly thing to expect that from a friend.

* He dismisses the fact that Peter Parker has a VERY GOOD reason for supporting Registration and made a heartfelt decision based on the idea it was for MONEY.
Although I don't think Cap should act like a punk against Pete, I don't think Pete's reasons for his pro-reg stance is all that good.

That especially bugs me and shows me Captain America is a no down, lying, dirty ingrate whom apparently has no faith in his friends and no judge of character. He turned his back on them and apparently can't understand there's MERIT to the position.
Uhm, the fact that he even approached Pym, who then betrayed him shows that he does have faith in his friends, but just that he now needs to be selective in who he considers a friend and ally. He understands the position, but the clause where he has to go hunt down other heroes, and the other stuff is what made him turn his back on the government. If you support the act, then obviously, he's going to turn his back on you too. What did you expect him to do? Ask everyone over for tea and cookies? Iron Man obviously isn't listening to reason either.

Who the hell does Captain America think he's fighting anyway? Nazis? He's fighting a democratically created LAW that's about people no longer being allowed to be vigilantes. It's always been outlawed before and he's never been beating up Police for going after Spiderman. No, apparently his ego can't take the idea that HE'S outlawed and instead he dismisses the others as traitors.
Just because it's law doesn't mean it's a good thing. Vigilantism is against the law, but condoned by most in the MU. The heroes that wanted official sanction could get it, but the others were left alone, within reasonable bounds. There's also just a little difference between a bunch of cops going after Spidey and there being a country-wide witchhunt for the superpowered.

[Kevin]

Edit

[Kevin]

:down

That's the crazy part though. Who exactly is going to have this problem? Daredevil? Spiderman?

The two heroes WHOM ALREADY NOW HAVE PUBLIC IDENTITIES?

The Young Avengers have a bigger problem in the fact they're being ripped from their lives.

It's not like SHIELD didn't know their idenities anyway.

i'll say a few of my views. even if cap hadn't been involved, the YA would have been Anti-SHRA. and i'm pretty sure they CHOSE to stand by cap for the simple fact of the matter that they dont and haven't ever really listened to the adults when it came to what they wanted to do.

"The young avengers have a bigger problem in the fact they're being ripped from their lives" well, too damn bad. for the same reason they should've thought that they're putting their families in danger, they should've thought of that before they put on masks. they put themselves where they are not cap

[3dman27]

I disagree wholeheartedly. The registration act is a mistake. Cap is right to be fighting it.

People have a right to privacy. the SHRA is just the first step towards fascism.

Maybe the act alone could be acceptable if the MU government could be trusted even one tiny bit but look at their track record. Look at the Xavier institute, once a haven for mutants, now practically a concentration camp.
Now the government is backing known supervillains and demonizing heroes.
They're sending shield agents out to arrest people for being good samaritans. They're making it a federal offense to be a good human being unless you're a registered good human being.
What if a guy who takes karate lessons stops a mugging? are they gonna throw him in prison for being an unregistered combatant?

First it's people with powers and masks, then it's people with powers, then it's people with skills. Eventually it'll just be people.
"noone was left to speak out when they came for me"

Cap may have made strategic mistakes because he was naive about his friends loyalties but morally he's absolutely in the right. His comments are the result of a highly emotionally charged conflict and him lashing out because he's hurt by the percieved betrayals by his friends who honestly should know better. Harsh words dont make him a bad person.

and a vote doesnt make a bad idea less bad.
Hitler was elected remember? This law is just another mistake that'll have horrible results.i was wondering about the martial artist samaritan scenerio myself

[BrianWilly]

However, the fact is that I don't necessarily believe Captain America has reason to believe it's degenerated to that point yet and he seems to show a remarkable lack of trust in his friends that he normally trusted to save the world.Wait a minute.

You seem to think that Captain America has lost "moral authority" simply because of the way he's treating Tony's side, but why aren't you asking these exact same questions of Tony as well? Why is Steve the only one getting the critical eye here? Why don't you ask why Iron Man doesn't trust his friends, the ones that he normally trusts to save the world, and never let Steve in about his plans for the registration act right up until he went and led Steve into a trap filled with armed soldiers who tranq'd two of his friends at first sight? Why don't you ask why Tony only asked those few people who he thought would agree with him to join his Illuminati? Why don't you ask why Tony peppered Spider-Man with expensive gifts and admitted that it was because he wanted to bring Peter to his side? Why he paid a supervillain to attack Washington DC? Why he never talked to Peter about the fact that he would need to fight against his former allies, and yet went on TV and told everyone that Peter would do it anyway?

Tony has been manipulating everyone for months and months now, deceiving and pulling strings and even playing both sides; hell, he doesn't even really agree with the registration act himself, he's only really being so for it because he doesn't think the other side would win. He never trusted anyone but himself right from the start, and the problem with not trusting other people is that no one trusts you either. You wanna ask why Steve doesn't trust Tony, there's your answer.

And I never understood why the police is not shooting at viligantes in the first place.Are you kidding? Why would they want to? If you were a police officer and there's two guys in front of you -- one's trying to hurt people and the other's trying to stop the other one from hurting people -- who exactly would you be more pressed to shoot? As jaded as the Marvel universe is and as much as they've wanted to blur the lines between their heroes and their villains, I don't believe that the line has been so undermined as to have police officers start to shoot bullets at people who they know are only trying to help.

And that's the whole problem with this registration act in the first place; with a simple stroke of a pen, all of a sudden people who we know are heroes have become villains and people who we know are villains are all of a sudden heroes. Why? Because the government tells us so. Because we look at the examples of a few and decide that it applies to all. All of a sudden, someone who would save me from a burning building is a terrorist. All of a sudden, someone who I've always trusted to protect me is labeled a threat to the nation. Someone who has been my best friend for years might be hunted down and I'm supposed to just nod politely and smile? And on the other hand, a mass murderer or rapist might suddenly be escorting my kids to school.

I would not be comfortable living in a world where I have no right to decide for myself who the bad guys, the villains, or the terrorists are and need some politicians who I have never met in my life to tell me. I have a problem with a world where those words -- villain, terrorist, evil -- are so interchangeable and unreliable that they could be referring to one group of people one day and an entirely different group of people the other.

[La The Darkman]

Captain America has lost his moral authority....

I was supporting Captain America only reluctantly after we started to see Gulags, hunting down superheroes, freeing supercriminals and all the other stuff that comes from overwhelming government craziness in action.

Now...I've come to the conclusion Captain America is a dick.

Everyone during this "war" is being a bit of a d*#k, situations like that tend to bring out the worst in people.

One thing I've noticed in terms of the readers of Civil war is that they seem to see what they want in these books, and completely miss things at times.


* He finds out about the Registration's clause about hunting down bad guys, is nearly gunned down. Does he report this to the media? Retire? No, he declares WAR.
Cap didn't declare war on anyone, war was declared on him. Hill basically told him to hunt people down or be hunted so Cap went "UNDERGROUND" meaning he simply fell out of sight an communication the goverment. Since then all he's been doing is fighting crime without a license.

* He recruits a bunch of kids and tells them not You need to go lay low and retire from this but "Abandon your families and work with me in a gurilla war that has no definite end" (it's FEDERAL LAW moron-they'll be on the run for the rest of their lives).
The YA's were caught fighting crime and were being hunted down and captured. AFTER their arrests Cap & Falcon rescued them and Cable was the one talking about them being "recruited", and as for Cap telling them to lay low, you may have a point, I mean that clearly has worked on these kids before. :rolleyes:

* He expects Hank Pym to join with him on this bizarro crusade of his and live his life on the run too.
As someone else said, you expect your friends to stick by you.

* He dismisses the fact that Peter Parker has a VERY GOOD reason for supporting Registration and made a heartfelt decision based on the idea it was for MONEY.
Yeah what with Cap, didn't he read the Spider-man CW tie-ins like the rest of us? :rolleyes:

That especially bugs me and shows me Captain America is a no down, lying, dirty ingrate whom apparently has no faith in his friends and no judge of character. He turned his back on them and apparently can't understand there's MERIT to the position.

He wasn't on the anti-registration side until S.H.I.E.L.D. attacked him, before that all he said was he wasn't going to hunt down good people for doing what they believe in and truth be told most of Cap's real friends are on his side.

* His words towards Peter during Issue 3# are beyond the pale and frankly of a dirtbag that I wish Spidey had pounded within an inch of his life. Captain America has NO idea what this kind of problem is.
If you're referring to Cap's comment about MJ and sandman keep in mind that this was after Spidey referred to Cap as "Kiddo", and again Cap doesn't get to read CW tie-ins so he doesn't know Spideys real motivation, from his viewpoint and others Spidey did sell out.

* His cheap shot at Iron Man also removes any semblance of moral authority the man has.

I somewhat agree with you on this one, Cap taking a cheap shot at Iron Man wasn't called for and reckless IMO, but he does and always has had more morals than Tony "drunken, backstabbing, munitions maker" Stark
[/QUOTE]

[WOLVERINE25TH]

I keep seein' things about Cap's "cheap shot". Hey, people, did we read th' same book?! Were not Wiccan an' someone else knocked out in an ambush? THAT's the cheap shot. If I was Cap I woulda decked him too.

[Joker]

I only had one.

not yours, the thread makers :o

[The Leaguer]

I know.

[Joker]

I actually love this thread...it's the first real anti-registration vs pro-registration debate I've seen here, seeing as most of the hype seems to be anti, including myself. It's nice to see some actual arguing about it going on :o

[LouFerignoDemon]

I keep seein' things about Cap's "cheap shot". Hey, people, did we read th' same book?! Were not Wiccan an' someone else knocked out in an ambush? THAT's the cheap shot. If I was Cap I woulda decked him too.

Man, I've covered that so many times, I need a fricking link for it.


SITUATION CONTROL!!! Anybody who knows anything about situation control KNOWS that the unknowables must be contained and removed. In order for Tony to get Steve to even CONSIDER talking to him, he needed Steve's big guns removed. Of course, this still pissed off Steve, but really, there was no chance either way, or else the story would've been a little different.

Tony's brigade storms in, Cloak transports those jerks to HELL, and leaves them there. Did Tony get a chance to talk to Cap? No, he's in a freaking other dimension he won't be getting out of alive.

Or Wiccan, the son of the Scarlet Witch, who's power transformed all of Earth? He's already shown power that could easily turn severe with training.

Simple fact. In a controlled situation, you have to have just that, control.

[LouFerignoDemon]

I disagree wholeheartedly. The registration act is a mistake. Cap is right to be fighting it.

People have a right to privacy. the SHRA is just the first step towards fascism.

Maybe the act alone could be acceptable if the MU government could be trusted even one tiny bit but look at their track record. Look at the Xavier institute, once a haven for mutants, now practically a concentration camp.
Now the government is backing known supervillains and demonizing heroes.
They're sending shield agents out to arrest people for being good samaritans. They're making it a federal offense to be a good human being unless you're a registered good human being.
What if a guy who takes karate lessons stops a mugging? are they gonna throw him in prison for being an unregistered combatant?

First it's people with powers and masks, then it's people with powers, then it's people with skills. Eventually it'll just be people.
"noone was left to speak out when they came for me"

Cap may have made strategic mistakes because he was naive about his friends loyalties but morally he's absolutely in the right. His comments are the result of a highly emotionally charged conflict and him lashing out because he's hurt by the percieved betrayals by his friends who honestly should know better. Harsh words dont make him a bad person.

and a vote doesnt make a bad idea less bad.
Hitler was elected remember? This law is just another mistake that'll have horrible results.

If people thought being moral was just what you felt emotionally, then the subjugation of black people decades ago was morally right. Or the extermination of the Jewish was absolutely morally right (seeing how you had an entire country working on the emotion that they were right). Lashing out due to a betrayal without much thought is actually fairly childish. When you were a kid on the playground, and your best friend is hanging out with another kid and you got mad and hit him, THAT'S lashing out because of "betrayal". Someone doing their job that they believe is morally correct, and you just happen to be in the targets is more or less morally gray.

However, the logic you indicate would also assume that everybody in our real world is going to be under fascist rule someday. Drivers for instance would easily be on this ladder. Fast drivers, reckless drivers, illegal drivers, could go down to just basic drivers some day unless there was this...what is it maybe... LAW that defines things so confusion and altercations do not happen. So the martial artist guy? Now, if he went around continually doing this, possibly assuming a costume and adopting a name, THEN he would be subject. If he stopped ONE mugging simply because he was there, that's probably not going to trip any alarms. It's when it becomes what he does on a regular basis.

I agree, people have a right to privacy, but if you follow that sentiment, people ALSO have a right to know. You can't give one, but say they can not have the other. They should know that their hero's answer for their potential crimes. (And they WILL happen. If there was a law like this before, EVERY hero would've been under reprimand more than once. And some put to death.)

And if by backing known supervillans, you mean the Thunderbolts? They're considered hero's currently, even before SHRA.

[hippy fascist]

It's interesting, essentially cap represents what america wants to think public perception of it and it's foreign policy is

Iron man represents what it actually is. :p

It's right up there with the logic of we want you to have a free country, so we're gonna take over for 5 years, set what laws your gonna follow, and use big guns to tell you what you can and can't do. Oh and as a cherry on the cake out "free democratic elections" were actually fixed to ensure that little georgie got to play warmonger for two terms! YAAAAAAAAAAAY!

Incidentally before I get all the hate I'm not talking about american citizens I'm talking foreign policy here!

[LouFerignoDemon]

It's interesting, essentially cap represents what america wants to think public perception of it and it's foreign policy is

Iron man represents what it actually is. :p

It's right up there with the logic of we want you to have a free country, so we're gonna take over for 5 years, set what laws your gonna follow, and use big guns to tell you what you can and can't do. Oh and as a cherry on the cake out "free democratic elections" were actually fixed to ensure that little georgie got to play warmonger for two terms! YAAAAAAAAAAAY!

Incidentally before I get all the hate I'm not talking about american citizens I'm talking foreign policy here!

Actually, the logic isn't as you put it. That would be America doing onto a foreign country. This is America onto itself. It's not a revolution in how the government is going to work. It's simply putting a restriction on something. Of course, it's viewed VERY differently. But it's like when the government banned cocaine. Used to be legal, found out it had lots of bad side effects, and it became illegal.

[Darthphere]

Wait a minute.

You seem to think that Captain America has lost "moral authority" simply because of the way he's treating Tony's side, but why aren't you asking these exact same questions of Tony as well? Why is Steve the only one getting the critical eye here? Why don't you ask why Iron Man doesn't trust his friends, the ones that he normally trusts to save the world, and never let Steve in about his plans for the registration act right up until he went and led Steve into a trap filled with armed soldiers who tranq'd two of his friends at first sight? Why don't you ask why Tony only asked those few people who he thought would agree with him to join his Illuminati? Why don't you ask why Tony peppered Spider-Man with expensive gifts and admitted that it was because he wanted to bring Peter to his side? Why he paid a supervillain to attack Washington DC? Why he never talked to Peter about the fact that he would need to fight against his former allies, and yet went on TV and told everyone that Peter would do it anyway?

Tony has been manipulating everyone for months and months now, deceiving and pulling strings and even playing both sides; hell, he doesn't even really agree with the registration act himself, he's only really being so for it because he doesn't think the other side would win. He never trusted anyone but himself right from the start, and the problem with not trusting other people is that no one trusts you either. You wanna ask why Steve doesn't trust Tony, there's your answer.

Are you kidding? Why would they want to? If you were a police officer and there's two guys in front of you -- one's trying to hurt people and the other's trying to stop the other one from hurting people -- who exactly would you be more pressed to shoot? As jaded as the Marvel universe is and as much as they've wanted to blur the lines between their heroes and their villains, I don't believe that the line has been so undermined as to have police officers start to shoot bullets at people who they know are only trying to help.

And that's the whole problem with this registration act in the first place; with a simple stroke of a pen, all of a sudden people who we know are heroes have become villains and people who we know are villains are all of a sudden heroes. Why? Because the government tells us so. Because we look at the examples of a few and decide that it applies to all. All of a sudden, someone who would save me from a burning building is a terrorist. All of a sudden, someone who I've always trusted to protect me is labeled a threat to the nation. Someone who has been my best friend for years might be hunted down and I'm supposed to just nod politely and smile? And on the other hand, a mass murderer or rapist might suddenly be escorting my kids to school.

I would not be comfortable living in a world where I have no right to decide for myself who the bad guys, the villains, or the terrorists are and need some politicians who I have never met in my life to tell me. I have a problem with a world where those words -- villain, terrorist, evil -- are so interchangeable and unreliable that they could be referring to one group of people one day and an entirely different group of people the other.


:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

[Darthphere]

I dont know how exactly Cap is losing moral authority. Its a revolution. I guess the colonies who fought in the American Revoultionary War didnt have moral authority either becasue essentially they fought over taxes that the British were imposing on them. Remember no taxation without representation. Little history lesson for you guys. It was a law that the colonists didnt agree with and what did they do? Gathered up armies, fought the British and won. Its really no different except were in a modern age with superpowered individuals. Cap is fighting against a law that the government is imposing on the superhero community, and if we remember SHIELD and dumbass Maria Hill made the firt move when she threatened Captain America. I honestly dont know where youre getting this losing his moral authority thing, when in fact hes doing the exact opposite.

[Shadowknight]

Or Wiccan, the son of the Scarlet Witch, who's power transformed all of Earth? He's already shown power that could easily turn severe with training.
:confused: Weren't her kids shown to be figments of her imagination? How did one/both come back to life/existence, much less be teenagers?

[LouFerignoDemon]

:confused: Weren't her kids shown to be figments of her imagination? How did one/both come back to life/existence, much less be teenagers?

Read Young Avengers. Trust me, it's better than me telling you, because you'll enjoy it.

[BrianWilly]

We're not quite sure yet.

Heinberg stated on the situation in a transcript with fans, "According to Billy's theory, the souls of Wanda's twins inhabited the his and Tommy's bodies when they were dispersed from Mephisto. But it's only a theory." [1] He also stated in another interview that his plans for the new 'season' involved the two searching for Wanda, stating "If everything goes according to plan, Wanda will indeed return to Young Avengers early in Season Two, when Billy and Tommy embark on a search for the true source of their powers. [2].

Much conjecture has been made as to their appearance and powers, and while interviews have stated that they are, indeed, her children, in the comics the only indication there of is K'Lrt's statements and Vision's files. Billy himself believes himself to be Wanda's son, however Tommy has been more skeptical about the situation. At this time, while it is exceptionally likely that the two are indeed the reborn souls of Scarlet Witch's children, it does not confirm that Scarlet Witch is their 'mother,' only that she may once have been so in a previous life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiccan_%28comics%29#Parentage

Her children weren't really figments of her imagination so much as fragments of the demon Mephisto's soul...it's complicated.

[Tropico]

Man, I've covered that so many times, I need a fricking link for it.


SITUATION CONTROL!!! Anybody who knows anything about situation control KNOWS that the unknowables must be contained and removed. In order for Tony to get Steve to even CONSIDER talking to him, he needed Steve's big guns removed. Of course, this still pissed off Steve, but really, there was no chance either way, or else the story would've been a little different.

Tony's brigade storms in, Cloak transports those jerks to HELL, and leaves them there. Did Tony get a chance to talk to Cap? No, he's in a freaking other dimension he won't be getting out of alive.

Or Wiccan, the son of the Scarlet Witch, who's power transformed all of Earth? He's already shown power that could easily turn severe with training.

Simple fact. In a controlled situation, you have to have just that, control.

Just because it's military protocol shouldn't dilute the fact that they attacked first, not that it was an ambush which is usually considered a dishonorable attack. It beffudles me how some people see Cap as being unreasonable. Are people so blind as to actually think that if Cap had listened and disagreed with Tony's proposal that they would be let go? They were setup to be arrested. Would you people react positively after betrayal? Honestly!!!:rolleyes:

[TheCorpulent1]

I know I'm jumping into the party late, but it seems to me that Cap is only reacting. Civil War all stems from Tony and the government's instigation. It was the government's idea to create the SHRA, and it was Tony's idea to hunt down his own trusted comrades and friends who wouldn't go along with it. It would've made sense for Cap to back off and retire at first, when the SHRA was just a piece of legislation, but since Tony escalated things to physical conflict and oppression, it becomes way more out of character for Cap to sit on the sidelines and do nothing than it is to make whatever questionable choices he's made so far.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Just because it's military protocol shouldn't dilute the fact that they attacked first, not that it was an ambush which is usually considered a dishonorable attack. It beffudles me how some people see Cap as being unreasonable. Are people so blind as to actually think that if Cap had listened and disagreed with Tony's proposal that they would be let go? They were setup to be arrested. Would you people react positively after betrayal? Honestly!!!:rolleyes:

Agreed. But that doesn't sustain to the fact that Tony was TRYING to help him. Granted, that either way, it was ending badly for Captain America. But I still felt that he was unreasonable at the point that he couldn't see any other way than to bash Tony in the face to get his point across. Cap's a "fighter to the end no matter what" type. Unreasonable is in his nature.

And I already said that Tony was looking to bring him in one way or the other. That's why Wiccan and Cloak were removed.

[Darthphere]

Just because it's military protocol shouldn't dilute the fact that they attacked first, not that it was an ambush which is usually considered a dishonorable attack. It beffudles me how some people see Cap as being unreasonable. Are people so blind as to actually think that if Cap had listened and disagreed with Tony's proposal that they would be let go? They were setup to be arrested. Would you people react positively after betrayal? Honestly!!!:rolleyes:


Good post. Some people on here have the blinders on. If Cap listened to Tony and said no, what they expected Tony to go, ok catch you later *gun finger*. If Cap said yes, they would still take him down and say some garbage like "Just to be on the safe side Cap" Because thats military protocol right.

[Darthphere]

I know I'm jumping into the party late, but it seems to me that Cap is only reacting. Civil War all stems from Tony and the government's instigation. It was the government's idea to create the SHRA, and it was Tony's idea to hunt down his own trusted comrades and friends who wouldn't go along with it. It would've made sense for Cap to back off and retire at first, when the SHRA was just a piece of legislation, but once Tony escalated things to physical conflict and oppression, it'd be way more out of character for Cap to sit on the sidelines and do nothing than whatever questionable choices he's made so far.


I guess people hate Captain America for being actually in character unlike most of the Pro-SHRA side.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Good post. Some people on here have the blinders on. If Cap listened to Tony and said no, what they expected Tony to go, ok catch you later *gun finger*. If Cap said yes, they would still take him down and say some garbage like "Just to be on the safe side Cap" Because thats military protocol right.

That's not exactly military protocol. And given my Tony's apparent lay down of arms when he was willing to shake Caps hand, with his mask off, and pulled his hand away after they were done shaking without electrocuting Cap, it would be actually pretty reasonable to say they wouldn't have to detain anybody nonviolent.

[LouFerignoDemon]

I guess people hate Captain America for being actually in character unlike most of the Pro-SHRA side.

Aside from Spider Man, and Reed's apparent reasoning to being on the pro-side, most of the characters actually fit in quite well.

[TheCorpulent1]

That reminds me: have they given any reason why Hercules even cares about the SHRA? I could see him taking Cap's side purely out of loyalty to Cap and his inability to sit out on any fight he happens to be around. Is that his only reasoning?

[Darthphere]

That's not exactly military protocol. And given my Tony's apparent lay down of arms when he was willing to shake Caps hand, with his mask off, and pulled his hand away after they were done shaking without electrocuting Cap, it would be actually pretty reasonable to say they wouldn't have to detain anybody nonviolent.


If a hostile surrenders, isnt it protocol to jump on the guy and put cuffs on him? Please.

[LouFerignoDemon]

No, you don't jump the guy. You do apprehend him, but given the way Marvel handles things, it would've been more likely they all piled into a plane and took off.

[LouFerignoDemon]

That reminds me: have they given any reason why Hercules even cares about the SHRA? I could see him taking Cap's side purely out of loyalty to Cap and his inability to sit out on any fight he happens to be around. Is that his only reasoning?

Must be, Herc has zero other reason to be on anti side.


In myth he is bisexual. And he DOES show a lot of...closeness to the Cap. O.o

[Tropico]

Agreed. But that doesn't sustain to the fact that Tony was TRYING to help him.

Sorry, I disagree. To me it seemed more like it was Tony going: "Lissen to my plan, it roxx00rz, ZOMG!!!:eek:"


Granted, that either way, it was ending badly for Captain America. But I still felt that he was unreasonable at the point that he couldn't see any other way than to bash Tony in the face to get his point across. Cap's a "fighter to the end no matter what" type. Unreasonable is in his nature.

You know what's funny? That people can get incensed that kids were killed in an giant explosion, they can even get incensed that Cap is "putting them in danger". But when the government shoots them on TWO separate ocassions (and I get the impression that Patriot's shots TO THE BACK were with live ammo) it's ok. It's ok for the other characters to be pissed for what happened at Stamford but then Cap is supposed to remain as if nothing happened when 2 kids get shot up with tranqs. Yeah, right!:rolleyes:

But people are right, Cap reacted out of character. Cable, too. If they had stayed true to character they would have been calling commands as soon as the ambush hit. Of course, there's the small matter of having your "friends" sucker you by making you think that people are in trouble and taking advantage of that. The whole situation must have been surreal to them, it must have been like taking a punch to the gut that leaves you breathless. Or probably a blow lower than the stomach. But, what the hell, I know EVERYONE is acting a little weird just to propel the story.

And I already said that Tony was looking to bring him in one way or the other. That's why Wiccan and Cloak were removed.

Cool!:D:up:

[Darthphere]

Excellent post Tropico.

[SonOfCthulhu]

One thing I do note is that Cap sure doesn't try to persude anyone while duking things out with them anymore. All those battles with the Red Skull and Baron Zemo where he would talk about how the right his point of view was while landing blows.

Here he just tells a couple of heroes on his side to watch out for Spidey's stealth suit. Does he not believe he could sway anyone? These were his friends. Surely they would be a more sympathic ear than that of an enemy ideologue?

[daveswb]

Wow, I haven't read this whol thread, but you guys are nuts!

j/k

But honesty the guy who started this really is missing the point of Civil war.
Look at what each character represents in the story and dig a little deeper for meaning.

Tony Stark = Fat Cat bureaucratic Washington. He doesn't support registration, because he thinks it's a great idea. He supports it because it was inevitable. The Stamford incident was just the icing on the cake. He has a lot to lose if he doesn’t support it. His identity has been leaked a couple of times as Iron Man and the government knows of his involvement with the avengers and so forth. Logically if he came out against this act they would freeze his assets and go after him. Rich people won’t give up their comfort easily. Same holds true for Reed Richards.

Captain America = Moralist American Ideal. America was founded on the idea of freedom. How free can you be if you have to be registered and monitored all the time? Yes he only disagreed at first because he was refusing to hunt down fellow heroes, how ever they decided to hunt him down. He has no choice now. It’s war. And he has to make a point for the American Ideal.

Peter Parker = the Every man. He supports where his money and protection are coming from, at first. We’d all do the same in his position. He has a family to protect, and needs to support them so he’s doing what he thinks is right by them. But he will be the one to realize the mistake he’s made and turn against the administration in the end. Doing the right thing at the critical moment, the one that truly has to struggle with all of the things going on and the decisions he is making. The one has to represent what the average person is thinking.

These are our key players in this story. It’s really about the three of them everything else is just fodder at this point. At least this is my view on things. It really comes off as a political statement towards the current state of things in our government.

[Darthphere]

One thing I do note is that Cap sure doesn't try to persude anyone while duking things out with them anymore. All those battles with the Red Skull and Baron Zemo where he would talk about how the right his point of view was while landing blows.

Here he just tells a couple of heroes on his side to watch out for Spidey's stealth suit. Does he not believe he could sway anyone? These were his friends. Surely they would be a more sympathic ear than that of an enemy ideologue?


Well he tried to get Yellowjacket on his side and Pym betrayed his ass so he tried....

[SonOfCthulhu]

Well he tried to get Yellowjacket on his side and Pym betrayed his ass so he tried....

I'm still thinking it's out of character (a bit, anyway). His whole stichk seemed to be trouncing the enemy both physically and verbally. Maybe Millar has a big speech set for when Cap gets payback on Tony?

[Brainiac 8]

Well lets look at it this way. Captain America is unwilling to talk to people he's gone to war with on dozens of occasions and is perfectly willing to beat the crap out of them....including Spiderman whom he should KNOW would never lay a finger on him unless he threw the first punch.

The way Captain America is behaving (Crazy) it's no wonder he sided with Tony (wrong as Tony is).

We need someone whose against BOTH of these losers.

I'd LIKE to believe in Captain America but all I can tell is the fact that he doesn't want to show the REAL Enemy (Maria Hill, whomever ordered Nitro to blow up Stanford) but instead paint it black and white. It's not.

Actually Tony's team attacked first. Captain was then just protecting his team up to that point. I really don't understand what you have against retaliation.:confused: :o

[Darthphere]

Actually Tony's team attacked first. Captain was then just protecting his team up to that point. I really don't understand what you have against retaliation.:confused: :o


They think Cap shouldve just been like "Hey you shot two of my team members, sure ill listen to you."

[roach]

which would have been more hurtful to the Pro side....????
1) Cap and team fighting the Pro side
2) Cap gets taken away and we have the trial of the century where Cap exposes before the country the stupidity of the SHRA

[Darthphere]

I'm still thinking it's out of character (a bit, anyway). His whole stichk seemed to be trouncing the enemy both physically and verbally. Maybe Millar has a big speech set for when Cap gets payback on Tony?


LOL! I gave you an example of what you were asking for and then flip the script. Fact is, Cap cant trust anyone right now after what Pym and now Tony have pulled.

[Darthphere]

which would have been more hurtful to the Pro side....????
1) Cap and team fighting the Pro side
2) Cap gets taken away and we have the trial of the century where Cap exposes before the country the stupidity of the SHRA


I doubt there would be a trail. These guys are being held as "enemy combatants" remember.

[roach]

I highly doubt that Cap wouldnt get a trial

[Darthphere]

I highly doubt that Cap wouldnt get a trial


Maybe to be made an example of. The rest of the guys probably not.

[toya thegr8]

That reminds me: have they given any reason why Hercules even cares about the SHRA? I could see him taking Cap's side purely out of loyalty to Cap and his inability to sit out on any fight he happens to be around. Is that his only reasoning?

Sometimes people fight for what they believe in. Together with perhaps loyalty I think he does believe in what he is doing. And sometimes, belief is all the motivation someone needs.

As for the original thread idea. I disagree, the more I read the more I'm on Capt's side. The law is not holy. A democracy can easily become a Timocracy or Anarchy. History shows that political figures are humans not different than most. Lol, look at the scenerio that Tony Stink uses to draw Capt out. In anycase, what's up with spiderman? "Butt-kicking button"? Wtf, is it really time for trash talk?

[Darthphere]

Sometimes people fight for what they believe in. Together with perhaps loyalty I think he does believe in what he is doing. And sometimes, belief is all the motivation someone needs.

As for the original thread idea. I disagree, the more I read the more I'm on Capt's side. The law is not holy. A democracy can easily become a Timocracy or Anarchy. History shows that political figures are humans not different than most. Lol, look at the scenerio that Tony Stink uses to draw Capt out. In anycase, what's up with spiderman? "Butt-kicking button"? Wtf, is it really time for trash talk?


Its not, but people have this highly generalized view that all SPider-Man does is quip.

[Brainiac 8]

Plus for those who think this is out of character for Cap. This isn't the first time he has fought against the American Gvt. On several occasions they have tried to pull something that has betrayed Captain America or other heroes and he has fought them because of it. At one point he even gave up the mantle of Captain America because of the governments betrayal to him.

His actions are very in character.:o

[roach]

Everyone in this series has lost their moral authority no one is gonna come out of this clean....Tony has been a complete A-hole.....CW#3 made Cap look less than heroic and Spidey is a tool.

[roach]

Plus for those who think this is out of character for Cap. This isn't the first time he has fought against the American Gvt. On several occasions they have tried to pull something that has betrayed Captain America or other heroes and he has fought them because of it. At one point he even gave up the mantle of Captain America because of the governments betrayal to him.

His actions are very in character.:o


His actions for fighting the government arent out of character....Tony and Steve just wanting to bust each other up is

[toya thegr8]

Its not, but people have this highly generalized view that all SPider-Man does is quip.

Looking at that scenerio, I wouldn't be hard-pressed to believe that.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Its not, but people have this highly generalized view that all SPider-Man does is quip.

Because generally, especially in any crossover he's in with other hero's, he's always joking around.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Plus for those who think this is out of character for Cap. This isn't the first time he has fought against the American Gvt. On several occasions they have tried to pull something that has betrayed Captain America or other heroes and he has fought them because of it. At one point he even gave up the mantle of Captain America because of the governments betrayal to him.

His actions are very in character.:o

Anybody remember "Captain"? Where he was basically not Captain America, but still wanted to be a hero, and Tony built him a sheild and all that?

[LouFerignoDemon]

Sorry, I disagree. To me it seemed more like it was Tony going: "Lissen to my plan, it roxx00rz, ZOMG!!!:eek:"

Oh, it absolutely dripped with arrogance. "MY overhaul?" Not "our overhaul." His. But it still had merit, regardless.




You know what's funny? That people can get incensed that kids were killed in an giant explosion, they can even get incensed that Cap is "putting them in danger". But when the government shoots them on TWO separate ocassions (and I get the impression that Patriot's shots TO THE BACK were with live ammo) it's ok. It's ok for the other characters to be pissed for what happened at Stamford but then Cap is supposed to remain as if nothing happened when 2 kids get shot up with tranqs. Yeah, right!:rolleyes:

Kids became combatants. The military doesn't actually HAVE to let children live when they become enemy combatants I believe. And besides, are you just going to talk down the kids with the superpowers ripping your intestines apart? God knows I'd shoot them before they'd hurt me if it came down to it.

But people are right, Cap reacted out of character. Cable, too. If they had stayed true to character they would have been calling commands as soon as the ambush hit. Of course, there's the small matter of having your "friends" sucker you by making you think that people are in trouble and taking advantage of that. The whole situation must have been surreal to them, it must have been like taking a punch to the gut that leaves you breathless. Or probably a blow lower than the stomach. But, what the hell, I know EVERYONE is acting a little weird just to propel the story.

Agreed. The situation, no matter what, was crap. The fact that Tony has probably wanted to talk to Steve, but the way Steve hides himself makes it hard. So he had to launch a trap, which of course, pissed off Captain America. It was a lose lose situation. The only way Tony could talk was by sucker punch. And a sucker punch hurts just as bad no matter what the reason is.



Cool!:D:up:

Dude, I've been saying that all along. x.x

[LouFerignoDemon]

They think Cap shouldve just been like "Hey you shot two of my team members, sure ill listen to you."

People think Cap should've acted like a soldier, and understood the situation at hand.

[Darthphere]

People think Cap should've acted like a soldier, and understood the situation at hand.


Umm im pretty sure kicking the guys ass that took out two of your team members is acting like a soldier. i dont know what army youre in.

[JackBauer]

People think Cap should've acted like a soldier, and understood the situation at hand.

and the situation is, it didn't matter if Cap listened to Tony or not. he was there to arrest them, as evidenced by the oodles of "heroes" and SHIELD helicopters, not to mention f***in Thor surrounding them after the ambush.

or what? you think Iron Man took all those people just so that, in case Cap said "no, I still won't sign", Iron Man could go "oh, okay, see you later then!" :rolleyes:

[LouFerignoDemon]

and the situation is, it didn't matter if Cap listened to Tony or not. he was there to arrest them, as evidenced by the oodles of "heroes" and SHIELD helicopters, not to mention f***in Thor surrounding them after the ambush.

or what? you think Iron Man took all those people just so that, in case Cap said "no, I still won't sign", Iron Man could go "oh, okay, see you later then!" :rolleyes:


I love how people jump into mid discussions with me without reading ANY of my former posts.

I really shouldn't even signify this with a response I've given a million times it feels.

But hey, why not. Maybe people will read this one, and I people won't try to "nail" me with it in the future. (Fat chance.)

I've said it before, and I'm saying it now. Tony was there to bring in Captain America, one way or another. He simply HOPED maybe Captain America would come out of it as an ally, rather than a prisoner.

Seriously man. READ other things I have to say before shooting from the hip, Tex. Because that NEVER gets old. :rolleyes:

[LouFerignoDemon]

Umm im pretty sure kicking the guys ass that took out two of your team members is acting like a soldier. i dont know what army youre in.

Actually, rationalizing the situation and responding accordingly based on information and control is acting like a soldier.

Seriously man, do you get all your army info from movies or something?

[Darthphere]

Actually, rationalizing the situation and responding accordingly based on information and control is acting like a soldier.

Seriously man, do you get all your army info from movies or something?


No, I get them from people that were actually in the army.:o I can just see the battle now in Iraq.

Insurgents: Americans, we just want to talk.
*shoots Billy and Wally*
US Soldiers: Ok sure, put down your weapons guys, they just want to talk.

[JackBauer]

I've said it before, and I'm saying it now. Tony was there to bring in Captain America, one way or another. He simply HOPED maybe Captain America would come out of it as an ally, rather than a prisoner.

(I won't even bother with the rest of the post...)

fine, then what the hell was there for Cap to understand? that Iron Man was there to pick him up? okay. so what was he supposed to do? bend over and take it? no. he did what he had to. he fought.

[The Leaguer]

Okay, this thread has gotten beyond stupid.

Fact: Iron Man is a douchebag.
Fact: Captain America and the resistence are right.
Fact: I am always right.

There, that takes care of that.

[Darthphere]

Okay, this thread has gotten beyond stupid.

Fact: Iron Man is a douchebag.
Fact: Captain America and the resistence are right.
Fact: I am always right.

There, that takes care of that.


:up: :up: :up: :up: :confused:

[hippy fascist]

Okay, this thread has gotten beyond stupid.

Fact: Iron Man is a douchebag.
Fact: Captain America and the resistence are right.
Fact: I am always right.

There, that takes care of that.

:D:up: !!!!!!!

[The Leaguer]

Hmm, I expected it to take at least four minutes to gain this much support.

[JackBauer]

Okay, this thread has gotten beyond stupid.

Fact: Iron Man is a douchebag.
Fact: Captain America and the resistence are right.
Fact: I am always right.

There, that takes care of that.

can't argue that. close thread, I guess. :up:

[The Leaguer]

Yes, more, more!

[hippy fascist]

don't encourage him

[The Leaguer]

I don't need them to, I can do that myself.

Damn, I'm awesome.

[LouFerignoDemon]

No, I get them from people that were actually in the army.:o I can just see the battle now in Iraq.

Insurgents: Americans, we just want to talk.
*shoots Billy and Wally*
US Soldiers: Ok sure, put down your weapons guys, they just want to talk.

Sure, if you want an unthought out scenario, there you go.

But guess what happens when you get surrounded and you're team lead? You try to preserve your guys, especially if all they did was knock out your two guys. If they KILLED those two guys, sure, what do you got left to lose? Go out with the romantic notion of "guns a'blazing". If that ISN'T the scenario, one would hope that they were smart enough to not have to resort to violence right off.

[The Leaguer]

Um, gluon, the thread is over. I said so.

[LouFerignoDemon]

(I won't even bother with the rest of the post...)

fine, then what the hell was there for Cap to understand? that Iron Man was there to pick him up? okay. so what was he supposed to do? bend over and take it? no. he did what he had to. he fought.


What he "had" to do? That's definitely an opinion natured response. What he "had" to do, apparently, was punch someone, knowing they were going in one way or the other seeing how the anti-side is heavily outgunned and outnumbered. What he "had" to do was put his boys in a dangerous fire fight.

What he "should" have done, is come up with a better solution. And believe it or not, resorting to your primitive nature to hit something isn't the only one available.

[Darthphere]

Sure, if you want an unthought out scenario, there you go.

But guess what happens when you get surrounded and you're team lead? You try to preserve your guys, especially if all they did was knock out your two guys. If they KILLED those two guys, sure, what do you got left to lose? Go out with the romantic notion of "guns a'blazing". If that ISN'T the scenario, one would hope that they were smart enough to not have to resort to violence right off.


The point is, Cap was going in either way. Youve admitted this. Better to go out fighting.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Um, gluon, the thread is over. I said so.

You know my name, Surfer.

[LouFerignoDemon]

The point is, Cap was going in either way. Youve admitted this. Better to go out fighting.

That's the most romanticized and unthoughtful plan there EVER was.

Go out fighting?

What the hell did that solve? Maybe you took down one or two of your opponents, knowing they'll be fine within a week or two and hunting down the rest of your teammates? And now ALL anti-reg are going to be treated as "hostile" with no chance of being offered the peaceful option? Maybe they're now going to be brutally interrogated, and possibly have SWORD forcefully remove all knowledge?

You know what WOULD have been a better solution? Join up, and work from the inside. Gather information, tech, maybe some more manpower, convert and corrupt. It's easier to make a ship sink from the inside out, than just shoot it's plating.

That's why the brain is mightier than the muscle. Because it can act over long periods of time, instead of just in the moment.

[The Leaguer]

Stop talking! This thread is over!

[Darthphere]

That's the most romanticized and unthoughtful plan there EVER was.

Go out fighting?

What the hell did that solve? Maybe you took down one or two of your opponents, knowing they'll be fine within a week or two and hunting down the rest of your teammates? And now ALL anti-reg are going to be treated as "hostile" with no chance of being offered the peaceful option? Maybe they're now going to be brutally interrogated, and possibly have SWORD forcefully remove all knowledge?

You know what WOULD have been a better solution? Join up, and work from the inside. Gather information, tech, maybe some more manpower, convert and corrupt. It's easier to make a ship sink from the inside out, than just shoot it's plating.

That's why the brain is mightier than the muscle. Because it can act over long periods of time, instead of just in the moment.


Why would he work from the inside when he has Thor for that.;)

[LouFerignoDemon]

Why would he work from the inside when he has Thor for that.;)

Like I keep saying! :) :up:

Except that Cap probably hasn't aligned with Thor or anything. But it'll be awesome when Thor betrays 'em.


Oh, and work from the inside, because that way his "boys" are treated not like prisoners, and assumptions aren't made and such.

[ges681]

i may not agree with him, but you dont put down the capt

[Tropico]

Kids became combatants. The military doesn't actually HAVE to let children live when they become enemy combatants I believe. And besides, are you just going to talk down the kids with the superpowers ripping your intestines apart? God knows I'd shoot them before they'd hurt me if it came down to it.

Missed the point completely. I'm giving a reason as to why Cap would be irrational, considering how everybody is going irrational over kids, why not him? But thank you for making a point against yourself. As you say, they're treating each other as combatants. You wouldn't bother to talk to enemy combatants as not to give them a chance to attack you, why the hell do you expect Cap to do what you're not endorsing?!:mad:

Agreed. The situation, no matter what, was crap. The fact that Tony has probably wanted to talk to Steve, but the way Steve hides himself makes it hard. So he had to launch a trap, which of course, pissed off Captain America. It was a lose lose situation. The only way Tony could talk was by sucker punch. And a sucker punch hurts just as bad no matter what the reason is.

Exactly. Trust was breached from the get go. And I'm not talking about the shooting the kids thing, is the way they got them there. That's a low blow. Only Jesus Christ would turn the other cheek in that situation and listen to Tony. And as much as people think that Cap is Jesus in attitude, he isn't. That's just a misconception because they don't know much about the character and just dismiss him as a goody two shoes.

Dude, I've been saying that all along. x.x

Cool!!:D:up:

[roach]

That's the most romanticized and unthoughtful plan there EVER was.

Go out fighting?

What the hell did that solve? Maybe you took down one or two of your opponents, knowing they'll be fine within a week or two and hunting down the rest of your teammates? And now ALL anti-reg are going to be treated as "hostile" with no chance of being offered the peaceful option? Maybe they're now going to be brutally interrogated, and possibly have SWORD forcefully remove all knowledge?

You know what WOULD have been a better solution? Join up, and work from the inside. Gather information, tech, maybe some more manpower, convert and corrupt. It's easier to make a ship sink from the inside out, than just shoot it's plating.

That's why the brain is mightier than the muscle. Because it can act over long periods of time, instead of just in the moment.


that seems like the actions of the world's best tactian

[Darthphere]

that seems like the actions of the world's best tactian


Which ones?:confused:

[roach]

Which ones?:confused:

faking joining up so that your guys will live another day or destroying the opponent from the inside

[Tropico]

The idigestion ones, I think.

Edit: See? I was right.

[twylight]

Okay, this thread has gotten beyond stupid.

Fact: Iron Man is a douchebag.
Fact: Captain America and the resistence are right.
Fact: I am always right.

There, that takes care of that.



I love you.

:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

[Darthphere]

The idigestion ones, I think.

Edit: See? I was right.


Makes sense.

[SonOfCthulhu]

Why would he work from the inside when he has Thor for that.;)

Now that you say it, that wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Missed the point completely. I'm giving a reason as to why Cap would be irrational, considering how everybody is going irrational over kids, why not him? But thank you for making a point against yourself. As you say, they're treating each other as combatants. You wouldn't bother to talk to enemy combatants as not to give them a chance to attack you, why the hell do you expect Cap to do what you're not endorsing?!:mad:

I did miss your point. Apologies. x.x

But I didn't make a point against myself. A good tactician should ALWAYS keep his mind open.

And they're only considered active combatants when they attack you. Before that, they're just considered dangerous and...I guess, not active combatants. Something that can be reasoned with before. Still combatants, but not in a firefight. Man this is not making sense when I run it back by myself. x.x (This is why I chose the life of physics. Because it doesn't have to make any sense to anybody but me then. x.x)

I expect, if no aggressive act is made (too late concerning Wiccan and Cloak, though I'd expect Cap, a soldier who's probably made the same decision in years past with SHEILD), that both sides can listen and talk.

And I ALWAYS endorse the nonviolent solution. Unless that solution concerns dealing with Wolverine. Then I expect his skull on a rack above my fireplace.



Exactly. Trust was breached from the get go. And I'm not talking about the shooting the kids thing, is the way they got them there. That's a low blow. Only Jesus Christ would turn the other cheek in that situation and listen to Tony. And as much as people think that Cap is Jesus in attitude, he isn't. That's just a misconception because they don't know much about the character and just dismiss him as a goody two shoes.

Cap is really just Cap. Sure, he's a "Good person" and a "boy scout" and all. But Cap is also a trained soldier, and a SHIELD operative. I personally couldn't see him getting past Tony tranquing his men, but one still has to hope (Tony that is) that Cap MIGHT be willing to listen anyway, and understand the situation he's been placed in.



Cool!!:D:up:

Frenchtastic!! :up: :up:

[LouFerignoDemon]

faking joining up so that your guys will live another day or destroying the opponent from the inside

Agreed. Cap's done espionage before. He should know this.

[Darthphere]

Thank you. Given your admitted military experience, I actually expected you to understand it.


This is of course assuming he already doesnt have people on the inside.

[Darthphere]

Dont you guys remember that She-Hulk issue where Cap talks to John Jameson? C'mon guys, hes totally feeding him information.

[LouFerignoDemon]

This is of course assuming he already doesnt have people on the inside.

Oh, totally agreed. But it would've been easier to ALL operate from the inside, and crush it far easier. Where fighting on both fronts is hardly effective. Lulling the side into false security definitely makes things easier on the attackers.

[Darthphere]

Oh, totally agreed. But it would've been easier to ALL operate from the inside, and crush it far easier. Where fighting on both fronts is hardly effective. Lulling the side into false security definitely makes things easier on the attackers.


Possibly, though you could also see it as a distraction so those on the inside can operate more freely. I dont know, wasnt Wasp opposed to the SHRA in #1?

[Tropico]

I did miss your point. Apologies. x.x

But I didn't make a point against myself. A good tactician should ALWAYS keep his mind open.

And they're only considered active combatants when they attack you. Before that, they're just considered dangerous and...I guess, not active combatants. Something that can be reasoned with before. Still combatants, but not in a firefight. Man this is not making sense when I run it back by myself. x.x (This is why I chose the life of physics. Because it doesn't have to make any sense to anybody but me then. x.x)

I expect, if no aggressive act is made (too late concerning Wiccan and Cloak, though I'd expect Cap, a soldier who's probably made the same decision in years past with SHEILD), that both sides can listen and talk.

And I ALWAYS endorse the nonviolent solution. Unless that solution concerns dealing with Wolverine. Then I expect his skull on a rack above my fireplace.


Hahahahaha, I'm getting that "cute" vibe again!:D Don't worry, everyone has some bias in this situation. I can see the big picture for both sides, I could even argue for the SHRA; but I prefer the rebels. To me they're "more right" and that gives me bias. It's hard to choose arguments that can't be turned against you.;)

Frenchkisstastic!!:up::up:

Agreed! LOL!!!:D

[LouFerignoDemon]

Possibly, though you could also see it as a distraction so those on the inside can operate more freely. I dont know, wasnt Wasp opposed to the SHRA in #1?

If that's what they wanted, they could join up, screw things up inside of the system, and cause the Pro-Side to totally doubt everybody within said organization. With total lack of structure, trust, and teamwork, it would naturally defeat itself.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Hahahahaha, I'm getting that "cute" vibe again!:D Don't worry, everyone has some bias in this situation. I can see the big picture for both sides, I could even argue for the SHRA; but I prefer the rebels. To me they're "more right" and that gives me bias. It's hard to choose arguments that can't be turned against you.;)



Agreed! LOL!!!:D

lol Leaguer never told you!!!

[SonOfCthulhu]

Oh, totally agreed. But it would've been easier to ALL operate from the inside, and crush it far easier. Where fighting on both fronts is hardly effective. Lulling the side into false security definitely makes things easier on the attackers.

But once they are all in, they have to reveal thier id's. Hence the main point of them not wanting to register is moot by then. Once that info is out...

[Darthphere]

If that's what they wanted, they could join up, screw things up inside of the system, and cause the Pro-Side to totally doubt everybody within said organization. With total lack of structure, trust, and teamwork, it would naturally defeat itself.


But that would totally undermine their goals though. Because they would have to reveal their identites, which is the point of this whole thing, they dont want to.

[LouFerignoDemon]

But once they are all in, they have to reveal thier id's. Hence the main point of them not wanting to register is moot by then. Once that info is out...

Every war demands a sacrifice. Captain America of ALL people should understand that.

[SonOfCthulhu]

But that would totally undermine their goals though. Because they would have to reveal their identites, which is the point of this whole thing, they dont want to.

Pinch, poke, owe me a Coke.

[LouFerignoDemon]

But that would totally undermine their goals though. Because they would have to reveal their identites, which is the point of this whole thing, they dont want to.

Previous post. DOUBLE!!!!!


A soldier, to preserve freedom, must be willing to die without that freedom so others may have it.

[Darthphere]

Pinch, poke, owe me a Coke.


Heh.:up:

[SonOfCthulhu]

Every war demands a sacrifice. Captain America of ALL people should understand that.

But this is THE sacrifice! This is what they are fighting to protect. Their ids and the relative safety of their loved ones. It's not a lone sacrifice, it's a complete surrender at that point.

[LouFerignoDemon]

But this is THE sacrifice! This is what they are fighting to protect. Their ids and the relative safety of their loved ones. It's not a lone sacrifice, it's a complete surrender at that point.

Read my response to Phere's rip off post.

(j/k Phere. We all know you didn't rip him off.... Or did you?)

[Darthphere]

Every war demands a sacrifice. Captain America of ALL people should understand that.


So they give up their identites and lose the war. They essentially fought for nothing. The whole point was that they didnt want to give up their identities, if they make that "sacrifice" at the end of the day win or lose they still know their identities. It doesnt make sense to me.

[Tropico]

lol Leaguer never told you!!!

Told me what?:confused:

[Darthphere]

Read my response to Phere's rip off post.

(j/k Phere. We all know you didn't rip him off.... Or did you?)


Nope.

[LouFerignoDemon]

So they give up their identites and lose the war. They essentially fought for nothing. The whole point was that they didnt want to give up their identities, if they make that "sacrifice" at the end of the day win or lose they still know their identities. It doesnt make sense to me.

Read my response to YOUR post.

As a great strategist said, "Sometimes, to win a war, you must lose it."

[LouFerignoDemon]

Told me what?:confused:

I'll have to tell you PM.

[Darthphere]

Read my response to YOUR post.

As a great strategist said, "Sometimes, to win a war, you must lose it."


Ok, but whats the point? They end up doing what theyre fighting against. They beat the SHRA, theyre identities are still known. It really means nothing in the end. Ok, future generation of superheroes are able to have secret identities, they are still screwed.

[SonOfCthulhu]

Read my response to Phere's rip off post.

(j/k Phere. We all know you didn't rip him off.... Or did you?)

We are same person, so it would be impossible for him to rip me off.

[SonOfCthulhu]

So they give up their identites and lose the war. They essentially fought for nothing. The whole point was that they didnt want to give up their identities, if they make that "sacrifice" at the end of the day win or lose they still know their identities. It doesnt make sense to me.

:up:

[LouFerignoDemon]

Ok, but whats the point? They end up doing what theyre fighting against. They beat the SHRA, theyre identities are still known. It really means nothing in the end. Ok, future generation of superheroes are able to have secret identities, they are still screwed.

I keep saying it, but nobody keeps hearing it.

It's ABOUT the future. It's not about the here and now. It's not about the battle, or handfuls of them. It's ALL about the hero's yet to come, and the hero's that might not be, or will be because of this war. The actions, events, and lives that will be affected from it's outcome. Not just about now. People don't seem to realize, Captain America NEVER fights for himself. He's WORRIED about the heros of the future.

Captain America has made grave sacrifices in the past to do what he deemed was right and just. Espionage is also one of his feats. He's definitely the martyr type.

As for their identities? To the government? The one that basically has all their identities courtesy of SHIELD anyway?

[Tropico]

Previous post. DOUBLE!!!!!


A soldier, to preserve freedom, must be willing to die without that freedom so others may have it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Tropico/wallace2.gif

FREEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: mad:

[LouFerignoDemon]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Tropico/wallace2.gif

FREEDOOOOOOOOOOOOOMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: mad:

For chocolate pudding. :)

[Darthphere]

I keep saying it, but nobody keeps hearing it.

It's ABOUT the future. It's not about the here and now. It's not about the battle, or handfuls of them. It's ALL about the hero's yet to come, and the hero's that might not be, or will be because of this war. The actions, events, and lives that will be affected from it's outcome. Not just about now. People don't seem to realize, Captain America NEVER fights for himself. He's WORRIED about the heros of the future.

Captain America has made grave sacrifices in the past to do what he deemed was right and just. Espionage is also one of his feats. He's definitely the martyr type.

As for their identities? To the government? The one that basically has all their identities courtesy of SHIELD anyway?


I see were not going to see eye to eye on this so im just going to say that I believe that they way Civil War is being written, a ploy to have themselves reveal their identities to become moles isnt going to happen. Marvel wants people to see both sides fighting against each other. They want to see Iron Man and Cap come to blows (as we already have). So this point were discussing is pretty moot anyway.

[Tropico]

For chocolate pudding. :)
If chocolate pudding were free........well, let's just say the American overweight problem would either a)be worse or b)be fixed because of all the deats.:o

[LouFerignoDemon]

I see were not going to see eye to eye on this so im just going to say that I believe that they way Civil War is being written, a ploy to have themselves reveal their identities to become moles isnt going to happen. Marvel wants people to see both sides fighting against each other. They want to see Iron Man and Cap come to blows (as we already have). So this point were discussing is pretty moot anyway.

I never expected you to actually agree with me. Just see some more of the points that you hadn't considered previously. Once a mind is made up, it's rarely ever changed.

Agreed, Marvel won't settle for anything less than blood.

[Eros]

Captain america always been alittle punk, who is a maystayer in the marvel universe, but the most uninteresting character i have ever seen. spider-man should be in his place, or another mega popular charater. Why is cap a main palyer in the civil war story anyway? Hs like a d string hero to the general populace, and haveing say someone like spider-man be in his place would beneift better comercially.

[marcofthebeast]

I keep saying it, but nobody keeps hearing it.

It's ABOUT the future. It's not about the here and now. It's not about the battle, or handfuls of them. It's ALL about the hero's yet to come, and the hero's that might not be, or will be because of this war. The actions, events, and lives that will be affected from it's outcome. Not just about now. People don't seem to realize, Captain America NEVER fights for himself. He's WORRIED about the heros of the future.

Captain America has made grave sacrifices in the past to do what he deemed was right and just. Espionage is also one of his feats. He's definitely the martyr type.

As for their identities? To the government? The one that basically has all their identities courtesy of SHIELD anyway?

Who's to say they can beat the Registration from the inside? Cap didn't have to become a Nazi to defeat germany in ww2. And Cap is fighting for future heroes so they don't have to go through being condemned for hiding they're Identity, he is also fighting for current heroes his respected allies.

[LouFerignoDemon]

If chocolate pudding were free........well, let's just say the American overweight problem would either a)be worse or b)be fixed because of all the deats.:o

Option B IS viable if you were to ask me.

[Darthphere]

I never expected you to actually agree with me. Just see some more of the points that you hadn't considered previously. Once a mind is made up, it's rarely ever changed.

Agreed, Marvel won't settle for anything less than blood.


You brought out some good points, and deep inside I agree with most of them but Cap is the man.:mad: :up:

[LouFerignoDemon]

Who's to say they can beat the Registration from the inside? Cap didn't have to become a Nazi to defeat germany in ww2. And Cap is fighting for future heroes so they don't have to go through being condemned for hiding they're Identity, he is also fighting for current heroes his respected allies.

Guess who Cap was fighting ALONGSIDE in WW2?

That's right, entire armies capable of going up against the armies of the Axis, with hope of solving the situation.

Not to mention he was a soldier in the government, and basically had no say on his situation.

[LouFerignoDemon]

You brought out some good points, and deep inside I agree with most of them but Cap is the man.:mad: :up:


Turned into Tony's b**ch in CW#3. :)

And likewise, you actually thought and listened, rather than recant the same junk over and over and over again. Acknowledgement is in order. :) :up:

[Darthphere]

Turned into Tony's b**ch in CW#3. :)

And likewise, you actually thought and listened, rather than recant the same junk over and over and over again. Acknowledgement is in order. :) :up:


Yes, tell that to the laundry list of noobies who seem to hate me.:(

[marcofthebeast]

Guess who Cap was fighting ALONGSIDE in WW2?

That's right, entire armies capable of going up against the armies of the Axis, with hope of solving the situation.

Not to mention he was a soldier in the government, and basically had no say on his situation.

The point is he was fighing for what he beleived was right then, And continues to do the same now. Wether it's with an army or ragtag group of heroes.

[LouFerignoDemon]

The point is he was fighing for what he beleived was right then, And continues to do the same now. Wether it's with an army or ragtag group of heroes.

That, and the government was telling him where to fight, when, and how.

[Grim Goblin]

That, and the government was telling him where to fight, when, and how.

There's a big difference between following your government when it sends you against people who would commit genocide, and following your government when it tells you to hunt down people that you know are selfless heroes.

[Grim Goblin]

As entertaining as CW has been, the whole registration debate is a moot point if you think about it. What I mean is that the whole matter revolves around the fact that super-heroes are (supposedly) too reckless on their own and should be properly trained and sanctioned to do their jobs, right?

Ok then, can any of you give me ten examples (besides the one from CW#1) where super-hero carelessness caused an accident of this magnitude and was public knowledge ?(reality altering like House of M don't count).

Because prior to CW#1, I don't remember heroes being such a source of concern in the MU as we keep being told they were.

[Eros]

superheroes and villians, has made planet earth into a war zone for far to long. its like 9/11 everday in the marvel universe. Super powered bafoons takeing down buildings to fight superpowered villains, and in the process they destory homes and lives. Superheros need to be in check, people are tired of havein to rebuild their lives every time a "hero" and villain square off. Like Alan moore said in Watchmen..."Who watches the watchmen".

[Badfish40oz]

And it's "hero's" like Captain America who would tell Alan Moore to shut the hell up and write in his freaking diary while he saves the world from the Red Skull.

[BrianWilly]

superheroes and villians, has made planet earth into a war zone for far to long. its like 9/11 everday in the marvel universe. Super powered bafoons takeing down buildings to fight superpowered villains, and in the process they destory homes and lives. Superheros need to be in check, people are tired of havein to rebuild their lives every time a "hero" and villain square off. Like Alan moore said in Watchmen..."Who watches the watchmen".Marvel has been trying to pull everyone in on their constant blurring of the lines between hero and villain, and I see that a lot of people are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.

It's ridiculous to blame a superhero for damages incurred when they're trying to stop a supervillain from inflicting damages. They're not the ones trying to to hurt people, they are the ones trying to stop people from getting hurt. As Speedball put it so simply in Frontline, he wasn't the one who blew everything up; he was the one trying to stop the guy from blowing up. Superheroes are the defenders, not the attackers. The blame for people or things getting hurt or damaged in a fight between hero and villains lies solely, morally, and judicially upon the villains who initiated the attack.

[Tropico]

superheroes and villians, has made planet earth into a war zone for far to long. its like 9/11 everday in the marvel universe. Super powered bafoons takeing down buildings to fight superpowered villains, and in the process they destory homes and lives. Superheros need to be in check, people are tired of havein to rebuild their lives every time a "hero" and villain square off. Like Alan moore said in Watchmen..."Who watches the watchmen".

Yes! You are correct, comrade!! I too want only to read stories with no ubermensh. Please give to us stories about our government and its heroes, Marvel. I long to read about policemen, firemen and even the perilous live of the street sweeper. I have feeling I am waiting too many years for this to happen. Please give to us, Marvel, these incredible stories. :doom:

[Darthphere]

Yes! You are correct, comrade!! I too want only to read stories with no ubermensh. Please give to us stories about our government and its heroes, Marvel. I long to read about policemen, firemen and even the perilous live of the street sweeper. I have feeling I am waiting too many years for this to happen. Please give to us, Marvel, these incredible stories. :doom:


AWESOME@!!!!@@!11231!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :up:

[JackBauer]

it's ridiculous really. it's like trying to blame a firefighter for not being able to stop a fire fast enough to save a life. was he to blame for the death of that person?

[Darthphere]

it's ridiculous really. it's like trying to blame a firefighter for not being able to stop a fire fast enough to save a life. was he to blame for the death of that person?


It be more like if the firefighter tried to tackle the guy with gasoline and a lighter on him and the house blew up.

[Tropico]

AWESOME@!!!!@@!11231!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :up:

Thank you for your support! Now that anarchist superpowered persons are dead we can have tales (it mean same as story) of true heroism. I would like very much to be seeing sequential story pamphlets with very important hero. Pamphlet should have title calling NIGHT TRASHER. It about diligent persons that prevent the accumulation of trash as to prevent illnesses and bad animals from gathering. They sacrifice themselves by working in the time of the night so they do not interrupt people during the day. Excuse, eyes are watering.

[Darthphere]

Thank you for your support! Now that anarchist superpowered persons are dead we can have tales (it mean same as story) of true heroism. I would like very much to be seeing sequential story pamphlets with very important hero. Pamphlet should have title calling NIGHT TRASHER. It about diligent persons that prevent the accumulation of trash as to prevent illnesses and bad animals from gathering. They sacrifice themselves by working in the time of the night so they do not interrupt people during the day. Excuse, eyes are watering.


That sounds teh roxxorz!11113232!!11111!!!:up:

[danielisthor]

Captain america always been alittle punk, who is a maystayer in the marvel universe, but the most uninteresting character i have ever seen. spider-man should be in his place, or another mega popular charater. Why is cap a main palyer in the civil war story anyway? Hs like a d string hero to the general populace, and haveing say someone like spider-man be in his place would beneift better comercially.

:mad:
THis is by far, the stupidest post in the entire thread. You should never be able to move beyond side-kick. To the general populace of the free thinking world Captain America is the epitome of Hero. Go back and read Hero's Reborn, he was practically being worshipped. On a battle field, Gods defer to Captain America. I highly doubt either Thor or Hercules would listen to any command given by Spider-Man. If anything, Spider-man would be considered a D string hero, he saves NYC, one block at a time. Captain America saves the world, hell saves the freaking Universe.

[Arkady Rossovich]

Captain America has lost his moral authority.....

Now...I've come to the conclusion Captain America is a dick.

Let's face it. Captain America is easy to root for. However, his behavior since the start of this has become borderline insane.

His behavior is increasingly sickening.

You shouldnt belive what Joe Q or Bendis does to the Marvel Characters,i dont bother to know any of today`s continuity.Its just not worth the time,people are also starting to do this.

[Grim Goblin]

:mad:
THis is by far, the stupidest post in the entire thread. You should never be able to move beyond side-kick. To the general populace of the free thinking world Captain America is the epitome of Hero. Go back and read Hero's Reborn, he was practically being worshipped. On a battle field, Gods defer to Captain America. I highly doubt either Thor or Hercules would listen to any command given by Spider-Man. If anything, Spider-man would be considered a D string hero, he saves NYC, one block at a time. Captain America saves the world, hell saves the freaking Universe.

I think he meant the general populace in our world but still, he's way off (and that's putting it politely). He's most likely new to comics after enjoying the movies or started collecting during the 90's or collects Spider-Man comics exclusively which explains his previous comments.

As much as I like Spidey, there's no way he should be above Cap in terms of importance when CW is concerned.

[deemar325]

Captain America has lost his moral authority....

I was supporting Captain America only reluctantly after we started to see Gulags, hunting down superheroes, freeing supercriminals and all the other stuff that comes from overwhelming government craziness in action.

Now...I've come to the conclusion Captain America is a dick.

Let's face it. Captain America is easy to root for. However, his behavior since the start of this has become borderline insane. Let's review some of his wonderful tactical decisions upfront.

* He finds out about the Registration's clause about hunting down bad guys, is nearly gunned down. Does he report this to the media? Retire? No, he declares WAR.
* He recruits a bunch of kids and tells them not You need to go lay low and retire from this but "Abandon your families and work with me in a gurilla war that has no definite end" (it's FEDERAL LAW moron-they'll be on the run for the rest of their lives).
* He expects Hank Pym to join with him on this bizarro crusade of his and live his life on the run too.
* He dismisses the fact that Peter Parker has a VERY GOOD reason for supporting Registration and made a heartfelt decision based on the idea it was for MONEY.

That especially bugs me and shows me Captain America is a no down, lying, dirty ingrate whom apparently has no faith in his friends and no judge of character. He turned his back on them and apparently can't understand there's MERIT to the position.

* His words towards Peter during Issue 3# are beyond the pale and frankly of a dirtbag that I wish Spidey had pounded within an inch of his life. Captain America has NO idea what this kind of problem is.
* His cheap shot at Iron Man also removes any semblance of moral authority the man has.

Who the hell does Captain America think he's fighting anyway? Nazis? He's fighting a democratically created LAW that's about people no longer being allowed to be vigilantes. It's always been outlawed before and he's never been beating up Police for going after Spiderman. No, apparently his ego can't take the idea that HE'S outlawed and instead he dismisses the others as traitors.

His behavior is increasingly sickening.


Guy I think your argument is silly.:down

[LouFerignoDemon]

There's a big difference between following your government when it sends you against people who would commit genocide, and following your government when it tells you to hunt down people that you know are selfless heroes.


See, YOU know they're selfless hero's. Not the public, not the government. One could support them all day long, but the public isn't going to care.

[LouFerignoDemon]

As entertaining as CW has been, the whole registration debate is a moot point if you think about it. What I mean is that the whole matter revolves around the fact that super-heroes are (supposedly) too reckless on their own and should be properly trained and sanctioned to do their jobs, right?

Ok then, can any of you give me ten examples (besides the one from CW#1) where super-hero carelessness caused an accident of this magnitude and was public knowledge ?(reality altering like House of M don't count).

Because prior to CW#1, I don't remember heroes being such a source of concern in the MU as we keep being told they were.


Aside from each and every hero either going against the law and attacking government property, betraying friends to do so, hitting their family members, abandoning their enemies to perilous situations, and killing people needlessly sometimes? Oh, and the millions upon millions of dollars in property damage they never pay for and such. The list goes on.

[Grim Goblin]

See, YOU know they're selfless hero's. Not the public, not the government. One could support them all day long, but the public isn't going to care.

Yes, I know it and so do the pro-registration heroes. That's the difference.

given any thoughts to those examples I asked for?

Is it just me or does the idea of training heroes who have saved the city/country/world dozens of time over seem a little stupid? I mean cops are trained to take care of crooks, but who takes care of the threats that cops can't handle? oh yeah! super-heroes.

but I'm sure they really need "THE MAN" to show them how to handle those situations none-the-less :rolleyes:.

[Grim Goblin]

Aside from each and every hero either going against the law and attacking government property, betraying friends to do so, hitting their family members, abandoning their enemies to perilous situations, and killing people needlessly sometimes? Oh, and the millions upon millions of dollars in property damage they never pay for and such. The list goes on.

yeah hum, that's mentionning possibilities, I'm looking for specific events (IE:the massacre from CW#1). Sure a building gets a bit smashed once in a while but it's hardly on a daily basis.

Tell you what, what would happen if cops, or feds tried to take Nitro in? I'm guessing BOOOM!!! do they need more training? No, it's just the case of having a super-powered ennemy.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Yes, I know it and so do the pro-registration heroes. That's the difference.

given any thoughts to those examples I asked for?

Is it just me or does the idea of training heroes who have saved the city/country/world dozens of time over seem a little stupid? I mean cops are trained to take care of crooks, but who takes care of the threats that cops can't handle? oh yeah! super-heroes.

but I'm sure they really need "THE MAN" to show them how to handle those situations none-the-less :rolleyes:.


Oh yeah. I wouldn't train them at all. I totally love glory seeking hero's that end up causing way more damage than necessary.


As for examples? Hell, let's go with a classic, the Stamford incident. I believe one of their teammembers said the villans were out of their league. What was the reason to take them down? Ratings. Yep, noble hero's there. No training in common sense needed.

Another great example? Thor. I loved his battle with the Absorbing Man where a few dozen people died, dozens more injured, and millions in damage because Thor got carried away. Perfect.

Hell, let's go with someone like the Thing. "I have an idea, I'll punch people through a building, and HOPE people aren't inside. Then I'll use someone's car, and NOT pay for it when I crush someone." Same with ALL superhumanly strong hero's.

Or hell, I used a teen team, right? No? Alright, let's go that route.

"Guys, I have powers. You know what I'm gonna do?" "No. What?" "Go out and fight who I think is bad with a child's underdeveloped logic." "Good plan!! Circumvent what cops have to actually go to school to learn, and justify it because you know 'right and wrong' and have the powers to back them up!" Now let's form a team of unexperienced kids who do what they decide to do is the right thing, and let them be justified simply because they have powers.



Hey, how about them folks on the Thunderbolts? People who will kill their teammates for their own purposes? My kind of team!


Here's the point. Hero's cause TONS of damage. Guess who's usually AROUND that damage? Humans. Normal, everyday, soft, fragile humans. And guess what happens when Thor decides it's time to unleash the fury of nature upon his enemy and their surroundings? The little humans get hurt. And who takes the blame when those innocents die? Nobody. Because apparently hero's are above the human condition.

Apparently, since they do things they feel is heroic, and they have fancy costumes, they don't HAVE to be held accountable. So what if people die because the hero had an emotional fit that day?

I guess hero's don't seem to think about that. People DIE because of their reckless actions. Wonderman decides to blow up everything around him, or Ms. Marvel, or the Human Torch, and what gets damaged? Everything. It's not like buildings, lives, and the status quo just goes on. They effectively stop. If people lose loved ones, guess what happens? They get sad, it's not like, "Oh well. Can't blame that Speedball, he's one of them good boys. He was only looking out in our best interests by just getting ratings up on his show."

Hell, by that logic, all I need to do is get a gun, and incapacitate people simply because I know the difference between right and wrong. Maybe a crow bar, yeah, bust up some ribs. I mean, because I know the difference, I can help people out.

[LouFerignoDemon]

yeah hum, that's mentionning possibilities, I'm looking for specific events (IE:the massacre from CW#1). Sure a building gets a bit smashed once in a while but it's hardly on a daily basis.

Tell you what, what would happen if cops, or feds tried to take Nitro in? I'm guessing BOOOM!!! do they need more training? No, it's just the case of having a super-powered ennemy.


No, you let Nitro go out to a safe destination, let him get comfortable again under surveillance (Guess what, Nitro doesn't have some sort of danger sense), and remove him from there. Sniper works if you HAVE to kill him. Tranqs work too, and you can detain him.


That's what I love about the "action" people. That a threat HAS to be removed right away with extreme physical force, and little thought.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Actually, you know what? I'm tired of people questioning why Registration is right with ZERO examples of how it is wrong.


I want to actually see some good examples of how it's WRONG, and is the better route over Registration. Because anybody can say, "It's wrong," but only someone who thought it through can prove it.

[Grim Goblin]

yes you're right. silly heroes for wanting to help.

Ok so let's say Absorbing Man is on a rampage in the middle of New York. He swats away police cars and cops alike with the greatest of ease. Now Thor comes flying down on the scene and ......then what? he shouldn't engage the villain :confused:

yeah he should probably lean against a wall until Creel goes to some open field somewhere in the wild :rolleyes:.

[LouFerignoDemon]

yes you're right. silly heroes for wanting to help.

Ok so let's say Absorbing Man is on a rampage in the middle of New York. He swats away police cars and cops alike with the greatest of ease. Now Thor comes flying down on the scene and ......then what? he shouldn't engage the villain :confused:

yeah he should probably lean against a wall until Creel goes to some open field somewhere in the wild :rolleyes:.


Oooo... Someone who doesn't know Creel obviously. Creel doesn't usually GO on rampages, he's usually INSTIGATED into rampages by hero's looking to take him down, in big public areas.

Thor being one of the worst, since he enjoys fights, summons, tornados, destroys electrical appliances all over with heavy lightning storms.

Easiest way to deal with Creel? Creel goes away to go hit some drugs.

If one is using their brain, they can follow Creel instead of just pissing him off, and making him use his powers to a heavy extent, where he usually jsut uses his powers to break a few windows and tables to get the money or drugs, wait for him to get high, and THEN remove the problem.


Hell, the only person to take care of Creel effectively was a damn drug maker. Not even one bit of resistance came from Creel.

What does every other hero do? "Creel, cease and desist." Which ALWAYS, ALWAYS sends him into a giant sized rampage.


If hero's wanted to help, they'd use their brains more.


There's obviously points where they are forced to fight people in public. But you know what? That means that the government now pays for damages, instead of those poor shop owners who pray to God their business stays open as their insurance sky rockets because they just became a "high risk."

[Shadowknight]

Oooo... Someone who doesn't know Creel obviously. Creel doesn't usually GO on rampages, he's usually INSTIGATED into rampages by hero's looking to take him down, in big public areas.
He was using Creel as a theoretical example. How about this actual example:

In the early Hobgoblin stories, Hobgoblin had Left Donovan take the goblin formula, dress up as the Hobgoblin, and go on a rampage. Just that. A rampage. He demanded Spider-man to show up, and in the meantime was destroying property and trying to kill cops who were completely incapable of taking him on, even when they used a sniper. So, if Spider-man wasn't registered in this scenario (yes, he is in Civil War, but for the sake of argument), same scenario, would he be forced to sit it out while a villian is trying to kill and destroy as much as possible to draw him out?

Or even take Creel as an example. During the Grey Hulk as bouncer storyline, he was hired to destroy a casino since the owner wasn't willing to give the Maggia a cut of the profits. Now, since Las Vegas isn't New York so it was lacking pretty much any hero but the Hulk, given that he was intelligent at the time, should he have just sat around and not stopped Creel because he wasn't registerd? Bouncer or not, that would be considered being in a super-heroish capacity because of fighting another superhuman.

Or when Galactus showed up to devour the earth during the Byrne run The FF had to team up with Strange, Thor, and Iron Man to take him down. If THEY weren't registered, would it be better that they sit around until someone else came to deal with Galactus, even if they might not have the power, or even Reed's intelligence, to save the frigging planet?

In GLA, Maelstrom was going to destroy THE UNIVERSE. If the GLA weren't registered, would it be better that they, the ONLY heroes in Millawaukee, did nothing while he destroyed, well, everything?

In those scenarios, screw property damage, screw the Registration Act, I'd take the heroes doing whatever it takes to save me. In all of the above scenarios, no-one could easily, if at all, move the fight to another area.

What does every other hero do? "Creel, cease and desist." Which ALWAYS, ALWAYS sends him into a giant sized rampage.
By that logic, cops can never pull a gun on someone who's holding up banks and stealing stuff, even if they have guns and have already killed people. When high speed pursuit comes into play, there is a chance they will lose the perp and they need to take them down immediately so they don't keep doing the same thing over and over, hurting more folks in the process.

[LouFerignoDemon]

He was using Creel as a theoretical example. How about this actual example:

In the early Hobgoblin stories, Hobgoblin had Left Donovan take the goblin formula, dress up as the Hobgoblin, and go on a rampage. Just that. A rampage. He demanded Spider-man to show up, and in the meantime was destroying property and trying to kill cops who were completely incapable of taking him on, even when they used a sniper. So, if Spider-man wasn't registered in this scenario (yes, he is in Civil War, but for the sake of argument), same scenario, would he be forced to sit it out while a villian is trying to kill and destroy as much as possible to draw him out?

Or even take Creel as an example. During the Grey Hulk as bouncer storyline, he was hired to destroy a casino since the owner wasn't willing to give the Maggia a cut of the profits. Now, since Las Vegas isn't New York so it was lacking pretty much any hero but the Hulk, given that he was intelligent at the time, should he have just sat around and not stopped Creel because he wasn't registerd? Bouncer or not, that would be considered being in a super-heroish capacity because of fighting another superhuman.

Or when Galactus showed up to devour the earth during the Byrne run The FF had to team up with Strange, Thor, and Iron Man to take him down. If THEY weren't registered, would it be better that they sit around until someone else came to deal with Galactus, even if they might not have the power, or even Reed's intelligence, to save the frigging planet?

In GLA, Maelstrom was going to destroy THE UNIVERSE. If the GLA weren't registered, would it be better that they, the ONLY heroes in Millawaukee, did nothing while he destroyed, well, everything?

In those scenarios, screw property damage, screw the Registration Act, I'd take the heroes doing whatever it takes to save me. In all of the above scenarios, no-one could easily, if at all, move the fight to another area.

Finally, some examples!

I agree that none of those could really be moved. But what makes you think that if they had to be registered, that nothing would get done?

With the Spider-Man scenario. Yes, a rampage. One that can't be drawn out. So instead of just depending on Spider-Man, a registered team could easily deal with the Goblin much more effectively. Where before, it was more or less a pride thing with hero's, and they did the whole solo thing. Now situations can be contained with much more effective natures.

Same again with Creel. Given the fact that the Registration offers the opportunity to organize against situations, rather than flying by ear, Creel can be contained and neutralized with minimal damage. Again, it looks like people are assuming that hero's can't do ANYTHING after being registered. The truth is quite the opposite.

And the same easily applies for Galactus. Granted, something on the level of the Ultimate Nullifier is always needed. But the registered hero's WOULD have a plan in place. It's guaranteed Reed probably already has a few plans for such an occassion.

And for Maelstrom? The only reason the GLA even found out was Deathsurge. And if the GLA (who ARE registered) knew of a threat, they could report it in right away, and get assistance almost pronto.

In all the events, people seem to think that after registration, that the hero's simply just stop doing anything, that they sit back all day and wait for orders. In truth, they'll probably function a lot more like how they used to, or closer to police officers. They'll probably do mandatory patrols like a police officer, and be on call like a police officer. They'll be able to organize, and plan much more effective teams for several scenarios.

Running solo leaves hero's to a large variety of problems, where functioning in a well thought out team limits them.

[LouFerignoDemon]

By that logic, cops can never pull a gun on someone who's holding up banks and stealing stuff, even if they have guns and have already killed people. When high speed pursuit comes into play, there is a chance they will lose the perp and they need to take them down immediately so they don't keep doing the same thing over and over, hurting more folks in the process.

See, this is where you're comparing a war to a gang fight. A few guys with guns may only kill up to a dozen people, with minimal property damage.

The Absorbing Man can grow several hundred feet tall, destroy entire buildings, and kill hundreds of people in the course of his fight, courtesy of his proportionally large ball and chain without even knowing it.

So which scenario would be easier to control?

The gunmen might be able to be taken out by snipers in an opposing building while making threats. Where Creel can basically only be taken down by very powerful beings, that usually need a lot of energy and destruction to take him down.

[Shadowknight]

Finally, some examples!

I agree that none of those could really be moved. But what makes you think that if they had to be registered, that nothing would get done?

I'm not saying nothing would get done, but if someone is in the area but can't do anything due to not being registered, that gives the villians/criminals/whatever more time to cause property damage in those scenarios (assuming the rampage stuff mentioned in my previous posts).

With the Spider-Man scenario. Yes, a rampage. One that can't be drawn out. So instead of just depending on Spider-Man, a registered team could easily deal with the Goblin much more effectively. Where before, it was more or less a pride thing with hero's, and they did the whole solo thing. Now situations can be contained with much more effective natures.
Point. I just mentioned that as you and the other poster were arguing over villians not really going spastic without being provoked by superheros. In the goblins case, he didn't really have that much of a grudge against Spider-man. He only fought him once and kept in the shadows minding his own business. He was simply using the scenario to A) test the effectiveness of the super-strength formula B) monitor the effects on Donovan's bio-chemistry as to reduce the negative side effects when the real Hobgoblin took the formula. He wanted to push Donovan to the limit to see the full effects under stress, but the rampage would have happened with or without Spider-man. Anyway, I'm rambling, I'm just saying this particular instance really didn't have to do with a grudge match and more to do with a more underhanded reason. Of course, there are plenty of examples out there where villians went on a rampage to "call out" their foes. Anyway, your point is correct on a response team. Sorry for the long response here.

Same again with Creel. Given the fact that the Registration offers the opportunity to organize against situations, rather than flying by ear, Creel can be contained and neutralized with minimal damage. Again, it looks like people are assuming that hero's can't do ANYTHING after being registered. The truth is quite the opposite.
Mmmm.... it's not an argument that no heroes will be around to combat villians, just that there will be a delayed response vs. the local guy taking care of it. Well, unless you have there be a "super-police" like in Top Ten and have them respond in a couple of minutes like with the cops and 911, but still there would be a delay vs. the guy who's already nearby.

And the same easily applies for Galactus. Granted, something on the level of the Ultimate Nullifier is always needed. But the registered hero's WOULD have a plan in place. It's guaranteed Reed probably already has a few plans for such an occassion.
Right, but I was theorizing that the person who had the best chance of taking down Galactus with either a powerful team or his brain was Reed. There are instances where a super-response team will be okay, but sometimes you'll get a quicker, less violent takedown with someone who's got tons of experience fighting that particular villian... and they might not be available because they refused to register, and thus can't superhero. I'm not saying that the registered couldn't stop certain villians, but it would be helpful if the heroes had direct experience with the Juggernaut, or Apocolpyse, Doctor Doom, etc either in fisticuffs or knowing how they think.

And for Maelstrom? The only reason the GLA even found out was Deathsurge. And if the GLA (who ARE registered) knew of a threat, they could report it in right away, and get assistance almost pronto.
They only had 30 minutes before the end of the universe. In this instance, in a nowhere area where there are only one or two superheros, getting someone from New York or L.A. would be too late, even by Quinjet. Sometimes if there isn't an IMMEDIATE response, people will die/things will get damaged/banks will be robbed, etc. Same thing with the Hulk example. If he's the only one in Vegas, by the time someone else gets their by Quinjet or their own power, Creel is powerful enough to demolish the casino in a few minutes, or at least do enough damage to make the building be considered condemned.

In all the events, people seem to think that after registration, that the hero's simply just stop doing anything, that they sit back all day and wait for orders. In truth, they'll probably function a lot more like how they used to, or closer to police officers. They'll probably do mandatory patrols like a police officer, and be on call like a police officer. They'll be able to organize, and plan much more effective teams for several scenarios.

Running solo leaves hero's to a large variety of problems, where functioning in a well thought out team limits them.
I guess you're right, though I think having, say, a 7 person team go after the Shocker would be overkill, but I guess that would work. But as a comic reader, ignoring the whole "reality issue", I don't like seeing Electro getting put in an energy bubble by Iron Man, who has the rest of the Avengers to back him up, who passes out when Cage threatens to hit him. (Yeah, that happened in New Avengers). I'm hoping the whole registration thing gets swept under the rug. Does it make sense from a safety and efficiency stance? Yes. Does it make my comic reading experience pleasurable? No. Still, you have good points, albeit not all of them can't be disproven.

See, this is where you're comparing a war to a gang fight. A few guys with guns may only kill up to a dozen people, with minimal property damage.

The Absorbing Man can grow several hundred feet tall, destroy entire buildings, and kill hundreds of people in the course of his fight, courtesy of his proportionally large ball and chain without even knowing it.

So which scenario would be easier to control?

The gunmen might be able to be taken out by snipers in an opposing building while making threats. Where Creel can basically only be taken down by very powerful beings, that usually need a lot of energy and destruction to take him down.
You misunderstand me here. You mentioned earlier that the heroes should let villians run away until they are out of an area where lots of property damage can occur. I'm saying that there are instances, such as real life robberies, that letting the criminal drive away from the crime scene instead of taking them down immediately might enable them to GET AWAY. Chasing someone doesn't necessarily mean you can catch them, with or without superpowers. If the heroes are fighting someone that can go Mach 6 or teleport, waiting around instead of attacking them would be a bad idea, as they can get away. Marvel doesn't really have any speedsters, and even Quicksilver is way slower than The Flash, for example.

[Grim Goblin]

here's a few reasons

1- the secret ID's are not safe: In a world where evil organizations have spies everywhere, people change shape, control minds etc... you really think that "hiding the info away" could work? come on ! :rolleyes:

2- the better training/ causing less damage argument doesn't hold up:
Ok, so heroes smash villains through walls from time to time. Which kind of villains get this special treatment? those that are nigh invulnerable or extremely though (and those are usualy of the crush/kill/destroy variety). Now with proper training, you should try to get villains to go away from the population before engaging them. Ok so what happens when he doesn't leave the city? If these villains can take being crashed through walls and hit with cars, I don't think that snipers are much of a threat to them :O .

3- The government decides who you can go against: Ok so what if Doom decides to attack the US (I know it's a stretch, I'm just giving an example) Now heroes who suspects him because they know what he can do couldn't do a thing before the government says so because he's got (or had) diplomatic immunity. By the time things are decided it might be too late but hey, at least we didn't jump the gun :up: ;)

And while we're pointing fingers accusingly, I could well say that it was Shield's fault if Nitro blew up Stamford since they didn't kill him when they had the chance. Sure we can debate the ethical reasoning of executing prisoners but when you have a guy in custody whose ability is to blow up, do you really want to risk it when we know the rate of super-villain escapes from prison in the MU?


now back to examples.

4 -It's wrong to force people: Heroes help people by choice not because they're forced to. They want to help and still get to take whatever free time they want to live a normal life. registration turns them into soldiers at the beck and call of the government. Now you're going to tell me that people who can and want to help should only do so if they accept to sacrifice their chance at having a non-military life?

and don't give me the "it's the law" crap. you sound like judge dredd when you do that minus the badass factor. Just because it's the law doesn't mean it's right. Heck if you want to get technical (and damn you for making me dredge up religion into this :mad: ) Judas was right to betray Jesus because the romans were the law!


5 -what is registration going to solve?: let's say that every heroes register and that one of them screws up. he gets a court martial, is sent to jail and we lose one hero. What's stopping another hero from making a mistake later on? Oh at least he's going to be punished but... so what?
Hey Speedball's in jail, I'm sure those people who lost family members in Stamford feel a lot better now even though Nitro's the bad guy who blew those people up with a smile on his face. And the government is only willing to pay for the damage as long as the heroes who were involved are on their payroll? But wait, huh... what about the destruction caused before the deputized heroes arrived on the scene? Oh well sorry sir, our guy had nothing to do with it so you get zilch. sucks to be you!:p


The fact is that heroes are symbols of justice, not law. I'm not saying they should disregard every law but they have to sacrifice the less important ones in order to provide the greater good.

[LouFerignoDemon]

I'm not saying nothing would get done, but if someone is in the area but can't do anything due to not being registered, that gives the villians/criminals/whatever more time to cause property damage in those scenarios (assuming the rampage stuff mentioned in my previous posts).

In THAT event, I'm sure there are exceptions. It's like in the real world, if a man sees a girl getting mugged, and he nails the guy in the head to her defense, and puts him down, he's okay as long as that's all it goes to. I'm sure it'd operate in a similar manner. But the people can't make it like a continuous thing.


Point. I just mentioned that as you and the other poster were arguing over villians not really going spastic without being provoked by superheros. In the goblins case, he didn't really have that much of a grudge against Spider-man. He only fought him once and kept in the shadows minding his own business. He was simply using the scenario to A) test the effectiveness of the super-strength formula B) monitor the effects on Donovan's bio-chemistry as to reduce the negative side effects when the real Hobgoblin took the formula. He wanted to push Donovan to the limit to see the full effects under stress, but the rampage would have happened with or without Spider-man. Anyway, I'm rambling, I'm just saying this particular instance really didn't have to do with a grudge match and more to do with a more underhanded reason. Of course, there are plenty of examples out there where villians went on a rampage to "call out" their foes. Anyway, your point is correct on a response team. Sorry for the long response here.

It's cool. And you're right. I should have specified that villans USUALLY only get worse when hero's get involved. That's not true for all villans like you said, but it is a general thing.


Mmmm.... it's not an argument that no heroes will be around to combat villians, just that there will be a delayed response vs. the local guy taking care of it. Well, unless you have there be a "super-police" like in Top Ten and have them respond in a couple of minutes like with the cops and 911, but still there would be a delay vs. the guy who's already nearby.

Like I said, there will most likely have a round the clock patrol like real cops, with reserves always on call. It would only make sense since that's how they seem to be portrayed at the moment, as super powered cops.

But even if you're not saying it, many are implying the hero's flat out don't respond. And, in truth, if a hero on patrol or a response unit isn't around right away, chances are another isn't either, since most are underground, and going by call as well.


Right, but I was theorizing that the person who had the best chance of taking down Galactus with either a powerful team or his brain was Reed. There are instances where a super-response team will be okay, but sometimes you'll get a quicker, less violent takedown with someone who's got tons of experience fighting that particular villian... and they might not be available because they refused to register, and thus can't superhero. I'm not saying that the registered couldn't stop certain villians, but it would be helpful if the heroes had direct experience with the Juggernaut, or Apocolpyse, Doctor Doom, etc either in fisticuffs or knowing how they think.

Reed knows how teamwork makes things easier, and far more likely to aim at a victory.

And if they refuse to Register, it would be to say that they feel they're above the law somehow. But this goes back to that vigilantism based on the situation. If it's once or twice, and they stop a villan, that's one thing. When it happens a LOT, that's another. But if they really wanted to do the hero thing, the best thing they can do is simply Register, and so when they are in the area (which they most likely will anyway) they can respond legally, and hold off the villan while waiting for reinforcements.

And if one hero has a lot of experience fighting a villan... Why should he keep it to himself? Why not share that info with the main information hub, so that a plan can be devised, and other hero's will also know?


They only had 30 minutes before the end of the universe. In this instance, in a nowhere area where there are only one or two superheros, getting someone from New York or L.A. would be too late, even by Quinjet. Sometimes if there isn't an IMMEDIATE response, people will die/things will get damaged/banks will be robbed, etc. Same thing with the Hulk example. If he's the only one in Vegas, by the time someone else gets their by Quinjet or their own power, Creel is powerful enough to demolish the casino in a few minutes, or at least do enough damage to make the building be considered condemned.

If people like Wiccan or Cloak were registered, they could teleport people anywhere in seconds. But one would assume with Registration, that teams of hero's will be assigned to bigger locations, and teleporting super humans would probably be more of a hub sort of deal, taking people where need be instantly. But if a hero is there in the casino with Creel, it's not going to matter if he's not there. There's almost no hero that can keep Creel from destroying a casino anyway. But having a coordinated response, and calling for backup, is a far better solution than just wild gunning it.


I guess you're right, though I think having, say, a 7 person team go after the Shocker would be overkill, but I guess that would work. But as a comic reader, ignoring the whole "reality issue", I don't like seeing Electron getting put in an energy bubble by Iron Man, who has the rest of the Avengers to back him up, who passes out when Cage threatens to hit him. (Yeah, that happened in New Avengers). I'm hoping the whole registration thing gets swept under the rug. Does it make sense from a safety and efficiency stance? Yes. Does it make my comic reading experience pleasurable? No. Still, you have good points, albeit not all of them can't be disproven.

Oh I agree it would make reading odd. There's pro's and con's to it really. In a realistic sense, it's logical. But in a romantic, comic reading fun sense, it just plain sucks.

[Kevin]

the thing about Electro passing out in NA, did that REALLY happen? at the end of young avengers there was a back up story, and like in she-hulk, electro rampaged into the marvel building, with a comicbook in hand, and stated he didn't pass out. i know it was just a back up story, but still. i'm thinking too much and i'm tired... NOT a good mix

[LouFerignoDemon]

here's a few reasons

1- the secret ID's are not safe: In a world where evil organizations have spies everywhere, people change shape, control minds etc... you really think that "hiding the info away" could work? come on ! :rolleyes:

Somehow their identities were safe before? Several people find out about identities all the time. Hell, SHIELD has FILES on people, and spy on them all the time. The whole identity thing is a comfort thing for the public.

And once more, it's not available to the public. It's available to the government.

2- the better training/ causing less damage argument doesn't hold up:
Ok, so heroes smash villains through walls from time to time. Which kind of villains get this special treatment? those that are nigh invulnerable or extremely though (and those are usualy of the crush/kill/destroy variety). Now with proper training, you should try to get villains to go away from the population before engaging them. Ok so what happens when he doesn't leave the city? If these villains can take being crashed through walls and hit with cars, I don't think that snipers are much of a threat to them :O .

So training people to contain situations, and use their powers more efficiently to grow and develop somehow doesn't hold up?

I'm thinking if you had a team, that worked together well, that had a good grip on their powers, that had a good info document on the villan with a viable plan, that would make more sense than, "Let's take all this power, and just HIT him with it excessively, even though that's the least efficient way."

3- The government decides who you can go against: Ok so what if Doom decides to attack the US (I know it's a stretch, I'm just giving an example) Now heroes who suspects him because they know what he can do couldn't do a thing before the government says so because he's got (or had) diplomatic immunity. By the time things are decided it might be too late but hey, at least we didn't jump the gun :up: ;)

And while we're pointing fingers accusingly, I could well say that it was Shield's fault if Nitro blew up Stamford since they didn't kill him when they had the chance. Sure we can debate the ethical reasoning of executing prisoners but when you have a guy in custody whose ability is to blow up, do you really want to risk it when we know the rate of super-villain escapes from prison in the MU?

Now THAT'S a good example. Right there. The government would basically label the "good" and "bad". And the "bad" are people that just don't agree with the government. So definitely kudos with this one.




4 -It's wrong to force people: Heroes help people by choice not because they're forced to. They want to help and still get to take whatever free time they want to live a normal life. registration turns them into soldiers at the beck and call of the government. Now you're going to tell me that people who can and want to help should only do so if they accept to sacrifice their chance at having a non-military life?

and don't give me the "it's the law" crap. you sound like judge dredd when you do that minus the badass factor. Just because it's the law doesn't mean it's right. Heck if you want to get technical (and damn you for making me dredge up religion into this :mad: ) Judas was right to betray Jesus because the romans were the law!

So cops shouldn't go to school, or the military for that matter about their jobs? Cops live normal lives.

And while some betrayals are just, they HAVE to be just for betrayal. Not just for pride or ego. If there's a good reason, such as a corrupt government that is opressing the people needlessly, then betrayal is in order. If someone thinks it's a bad idea what the government is doing without any conclusive proof, then it's just acting on a feeling, and that usually leads to doing the wrong thing.

And it IS the law. Sorry, it just IS. I shouldn't be able to make the decisions for the majority. It's unjust, it just is.

Hero's, for the most part it seems anymore, are in it for the glory factor. Cap, Iron Man, Spidey, and a few others obviously aren't mostly, but many are. They're definitely in it for the glory. When the kids get powers, they WANT to be superhero's, because they're cool. They never plan, or devise ways of helping people. They just throw together costumes and look for super crime. There's far better ways to help the public than that. But they mostly just want the glory. I'd say Luke Cage, being an Avengers simply so he could tell his child that, but even HE had a good idea to do that sit in. But for the most part, it all seems to be about glory.

5 -what is registration going to solve?: let's say that every heroes register and that one of them screws up. he gets a court martial, is sent to jail and we lose one hero. What's stopping another hero from making a mistake later on? Oh at least he's going to be punished but... so what?
Hey Speedball's in jail, I'm sure those people who lost family members in Stamford feel a lot better now even though Nitro's the bad guy who blew those people up with a smile on his face. And the government is only willing to pay for the damage as long as the heroes who were involved are on their payroll? But wait, huh... what about the destruction caused before the deputized heroes arrived on the scene? Oh well sorry sir, our guy had nothing to do with it so you get zilch. sucks to be you!:p


The fact is that heroes are symbols of justice, not law. I'm not saying they should disregard every law but they have to sacrifice the less important ones in order to provide the greater good.

Most cops and such that get court martialed do not go to jail. Usually they get fined, probation pending reserve, or retraining. RARELY do they get jail time. So I doubt jail time is in order. But see, that's where TRAINING comes in. To limit this.

And if jail time WERE a likely punishment, it's a good bet that hero's will act far more in line and reasonably with less chance of going off the handle.

And chances are if a super villan attacks, and they deploy super humans, the damage will get worse, and they'll pay for all of it. Not just part or half of it. That doesn't even make sense.

[LouFerignoDemon]

the thing about Electro passing out in NA, did that REALLY happen? at the end of young avengers there was a back up story, and like in she-hulk, electro rampaged into the marvel building, with a comicbook in hand, and stated he didn't pass out. i know it was just a back up story, but still. i'm thinking too much and i'm tired... NOT a good mix

He did, after Spidey webbed up Cage's hands, and Cage said he was going to pound on him for a while.

[Kevin]

honest question, if SHIELD already knows the ID's of people, why do they need to register?

[LouFerignoDemon]

honest question, if SHIELD already knows the ID's of people, why do they need to register?

I thought I explained that? It's a publicity thing. If the people think the hero's are entrusting their identities to the government, they'll feel far more at ease with their hero's. Easier to trust someone who's open, than someone who HAS to remain secretive for some reason.

[Fading]

Captain America has lost his moral authority....

* He finds out about the Registration's clause about hunting down bad guys, is nearly gunned down. Does he report this to the media? Retire? No, he declares WAR.

I know this has been answered, but got in on the discussion late lol. Anyway first off, this is comics, when has a super hero ever been almost gunned down and ran to reporters for help? Caps a man, he takes care of his own problems. He believes in justice and freedom, so he's willing to fight for that freedom. There's a saying that "The first generation not willing to fight for their freedom will lose it.". Cap is fighting for what he believes in, and he believes the registration act is wrong.


* He recruits a bunch of kids and tells them not You need to go lay low and retire from this but "Abandon your families and work with me in a gurilla war that has no definite end" (it's FEDERAL LAW moron-they'll be on the run for the rest of their lives).

Fact is those kids are already super hero's. It kinda comes with the job to lay your life on the line. Any lucky punk with a gun can walk up and shoot Spiderman while he's busy and possibly get lucky and get a hit. Spiderman accepts it, and risks his life for others, not because it's best for him but because he's willing to risk his life to save anothers life. Something I don't think many ppl get anymore, but in real life others should always come before yourself, which again people are understanding less and less.

* He expects Hank Pym to join with him on this bizarro crusade of his and live his life on the run too.

Pym's a long time friend and commrade of Cap. Most friends worth anything would back you up on something you believe and need help with just as you should for them. If Pym chooses to have Cap's back cool, it's not like cap's holding a gun to his head.

* He dismisses the fact that Peter Parker has a VERY GOOD reason for supporting Registration and made a heartfelt decision based on the idea it was for MONEY.

You can't totally blame Cap for thinking Spidey's in it for the cash. First time Cap asked Spiderman to join the Avengers money was the first thing Parker mentioned, then gave pause when cap said it would have to be without money. Looks like Spidey's gonna have his butt handed to him for his decision, and join Cap's side, and possibly (by most ppl's guesses) gonna get MJ or May hurt or worse.

That especially bugs me and shows me Captain America is a no down, lying, dirty ingrate whom apparently has no faith in his friends and no judge of character. He turned his back on them and apparently can't understand there's MERIT to the position.

If he had no faith in his friends, why is he asking ppl like Pym to help him. I wouldn't ask for help from ppl I didn't trust in.

* His cheap shot at Iron Man also removes any semblance of moral authority the man has.

I'll end with this one. Fact is it's Iron Man who's hiring villains to hunt down hero's. He's not asking hero's to register now, he's telling them to register or giving death or life in prisonment sentences. He's beating the hell outta former friends, lying, and used an old villain to set up an attack. Right now Iron Man's side is setting up to be Nazi-esque themselves in forcing their view on others.


As to Miss Glutton on there being no examples of why it's wrong. Fact is this is supposed to be semi-mirroring real life examples. In that regards we've seen what happens when a select group gets rounded up, and those that don't comply get killed. Though super-hero's choose that line of work heh.

Problem is that a Superhero in comics usually has a reason to be one, someone died, they want to protect others and so on. But by revealing their identity to anyone, they put family members at risk. How many times has a comic hacker broke into a high security facility and stole important documents. What's to stop 100 villains from teaming up, smashing the building with the Hero's names on the server, then selling hero's identities to the highest bidder. Then villains who want to cause pain to them simply pick their family members off one by one or something. Or someone frames a hero in a crime, and before the hero knows what happened and has a chance to clear himself he has government officials banging at his door, and if he tries to escape he's (his real identity) is put on every wanted list in America.

Or hero's like mutants who have no other idenetity. Someone like Rogue or Cyke that can't turn their powers off, but has good control of keeping them in line. What if the comic government made a list of hero's/mutants, then puts that list out to certain places like schools, and suddenly a former hero is deemed to big a risk to get a normal job. I know this sounds stupid lol, not really taking it serious. Just saying their are plenty of reasons and concerns as to why one wouldn't want the government to know their secret identities. Heck, how many times has a shape shifter posed as someone high up and simply had access to all of that info.

I think Cap has to go against it, the bill goes against what he believes in, and it wouldn't be in Cap's character to go with it. This bill is the exact same thing teams like the X-Men have been fighting against since they formed. This registration act is also the type of thing that leads to alternate futures where government controlled sentinels are everywhere while hero's get led around in chains. Just takes one corrupted high up politician with a hate for superhero's for it to get worse. And one step always leads to another, if Iron Man's side wins, you'll only see it get worse for the hero's til their all cornered IMO.

BTW didn't read all the pages, sure ppl have said or commented on similar things as what I said alrdy lol. Also sry it's so long lol, dog got a gash on his leg, so typing because he crawled on my lap and won't move. He's a medium sized dog, too big to be moping and in my lap lol.

[Grim Goblin]

Somehow their identities were safe before? Several people find out about identities all the time. Hell, SHIELD has FILES on people, and spy on them all the time. The whole identity thing is a comfort thing for the public.

And once more, it's not available to the public. It's available to the government.

Well, I also don't think it's logical that Shield has files on all these heroes and yet none of the rogue agents took advantage of it before but that'S another matter. The registration act, unlike what Shield did, makes it public knowledge that they have super-heroes IDs on file. making it all the more tempting for spies, moles, shape-shifters etc...to go for the info. I never said they need to make their IDs public.

So training people to contain situations, and use their powers more efficiently to grow and develop somehow doesn't hold up?

I'm thinking if you had a team, that worked together well, that had a good grip on their powers, that had a good info document on the villan with a viable plan, that would make more sense than, "Let's take all this power, and just HIT him with it excessively, even though that's the least efficient way."

yeah, and you'd think that all the long standing teams who have yet to be killed in action would have managed that by now without registering


Now THAT'S a good example. Right there. The government would basically label the "good" and "bad". And the "bad" are people that just don't agree with the government. So definitely kudos with this one.


So cops shouldn't go to school, or the military for that matter about their jobs? Cops live normal lives.

you're right they do have a life but like I said, they chose it, they weren't drafted by force. heroes feel it's their moral responsability to use their gifts for the greater good. It doesn't mean they want to make it their exclusive job. Imposing patrols makes it an exclusive job.

And while some betrayals are just, they HAVE to be just for betrayal. Not just for pride or ego. If there's a good reason, such as a corrupt government that is opressing the people needlessly, then betrayal is in order. If someone thinks it's a bad idea what the government is doing without any conclusive proof, then it's just acting on a feeling, and that usually leads to doing the wrong thing.

And it IS the law. Sorry, it just IS. I shouldn't be able to make the decisions for the majority. It's unjust, it just is.

If I steal a loaf of bread to feed my starving family, am I not commiting a crime? If I use super-powers to stop a crime because I'm the only one around and I'm not registered, am I not a vigilante despite the circumstances? And yet according to the law I should be arrested in either case.

Hero's, for the most part it seems anymore, are in it for the glory factor. Cap, Iron Man, Spidey, and a few others obviously aren't mostly, but many are. They're definitely in it for the glory. When the kids get powers, they WANT to be superhero's, because they're cool. They never plan, or devise ways of helping people. They just throw together costumes and look for super crime. There's far better ways to help the public than that. But they mostly just want the glory. I'd say Luke Cage, being an Avengers simply so he could tell his child that, but even HE had a good idea to do that sit in. But for the most part, it all seems to be about glory.

See that's something that you didn't see up until recently. The Heroes of the MU used to be about being heroes. Not celebrities.

Most cops and such that get court martialed do not go to jail. Usually they get fined, probation pending reserve, or retraining. RARELY do they get jail time. So I doubt jail time is in order. But see, that's where TRAINING comes in. To limit this.

And if jail time WERE a likely punishment, it's a good bet that hero's will act far more in line and reasonably with less chance of going off the handle.

And yet I hear about cops making mistakes all the times.
And chances are if a super villan attacks, and they deploy super humans, the damage will get worse, and they'll pay for all of it. Not just part or half of it. That doesn't even make sense.

Ok so the damage will get worse and they will pay for all of it because super-humans were deployed, but only if they're registered super-humans? The deputy can wreck the building while fighting but not the good samaritan? THAT doesn't make sense.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Ok so the damage will get worse and they will pay for all of it because super-humans were deployed, but only if they're registered super-humans? The deputy can wreck the building while fighting but not the good samaritan? THAT doesn't make sense.


See, most of those teams fight a certain set of enemies. Or you can go with teams LIKE the New Warriors, or Young Avengers, who seem to just be a hit and miss sort of deal. The only team aside from the major organized teams that practice and train that actually had a tactic was the Runaways. That's it. The Avengers train together, the X-Men train together. The big teams TRAIN together.

So I don't see what you're getting at there.

And it only makes sense if the damage is caused in part by their superhumans. The good samaritan is not under the jurisdiction of the government, and thus, has no responsibilities to him. So I don't see why it doesn't make sense to you.


"Hey guy. I know we didn't train you, ask for your help, and I know that you decided to go do reckless things all on your own. The millions of dollars you did in reckless damage that our team could have minimized is on us, despite the fact we have no reason to cover you."

[Kevin]

yeah... "the people" are stupid. are they forgeting that most heroes are also people too? what upsets me is that they don't realize what they're putting certain heroes through. i'm not say the SHRA is right or wrong. i've come to the point were i understand both sides, but i'm still anti-SHRA, that said, i understand why the people want to feel safe.

...but has anyone thought what would happen if a registered hero refused to go against what they were ordered to do? like say spider-man, venom starts tearing up the city. he's not asking for spider-man, he's just doing it because he can. spider-man knows how to beat him. spider-man thinks it's his responsibility and his fault, and quite frankly, it kinda is. he wants to go after him but they rather him go to help stop a fire on the other side of town (i know, dumb example) we all know spider-man, for the most part, he does what he thinks is right. what's that? he'll go after venom. you think SHIELD is gonna be like "ok, i know we told you to do one thing but you did the other, and it worked. thank you." no, they're gonna be like, "YOU DISOBEYED ORDERS! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? YOU STEP OUT OF LINE AGAIN AND YOU WILL REGRET IT!" we know that's how SHIELD is, and we know how spidey is. you think he's really gonna take that for long? they can make him suffer, his family suffer, all because he did the right thing. now think of yourself as a hero. when you let someone else dicide to run your life, it's either obey, or suffer. by registering you're giving them that power. you're giving up your rights. i'll stop now because you're most likely gonna think what i said doesn't make sense.

i have more examples, but i'll hold off for now

[LouFerignoDemon]

yeah... "the people" are stupid. are they forgeting that most heroes are also people too? what upsets me is that they don't realize what they're putting certain heroes through. i'm not say the SHRA is right or wrong. i've come to the point were i understand both sides, but i'm still anti-SHRA, that said, i understand why the people want to feel safe.

...but has anyone thought what would happen if a registered hero refused to go against what they were ordered to do? like say spider-man, venom starts tearing up the city. he's not asking for spider-man, he's just doing it because he can. spider-man knows how to beat him. spider-man thinks it's his responsibility and his fault, and quite frankly, it kinda is. he wants to go after him but they rather him go to help stop a fire on the other side of town (i know, dumb example) we all know spider-man, for the most part, he does what he thinks is right. what's that? he'll go after venom. you think SHIELD is gonna be like "ok, i know we told you to do one thing but you did the other, and it worked. thank you." no, they're gonna be like, "YOU DISOBEYED ORDERS! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? YOU STEP OUT OF LINE AGAIN AND YOU WILL REGRET IT!" we know that's how SHIELD is, and we know how spidey is. you think he's really gonna take that for long? they can make him suffer, his family suffer, all because he did the right thing. now think of yourself as a hero. when you let someone else dicide to run your life, it's either obey, or suffer. by registering you're giving them that power. you're giving up your rights. i'll stop now because you're most likely gonna think what i said doesn't make sense.

i have more examples, but i'll hold off for now

Dude, don't hold off. Examples are necessary.

And chances are in that situation, they could EASILY have Spidey replaced on the fire, and have him redeployed to deal with Venom. OR, Spidey can be smart, finish what he's doing, and let another cadre take care of Venom. Pete does the rebel thing once in the while. But pretty much only when it's necessary.

And I agree, Pete is under that spectre of "do what you're told or regret it" But it seems that once they become hero's they'll be doing patrols, so the Venom situation will most likely be able to be handled by him, though there are far more capable hero's for it. But it's like a cop. A cop could do his job, and bring the criminal in, or disobey and beat the crap out of him needlessly. It's more or less up to the cop, and they seem to be able to take orders. Spidey is definitely a follower, so I don't see Pete just going off the handle and going full rebel.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Well, I also don't think it's logical that Shield has files on all these heroes and yet none of the rogue agents took advantage of it before but that'S another matter. The registration act, unlike what Shield did, makes it public knowledge that they have super-heroes IDs on file. making it all the more tempting for spies, moles, shape-shifters etc...to go for the info. I never said they need to make their IDs public.

You imply it. And it IS logical SHIELD has it. Do you really think the top intelligence agency in the world would just let that info go? And rogue agents usually don't even HAVE the clearance for thos files.



yeah, and you'd think that all the long standing teams who have yet to be killed in action would have managed that by now without registering
Already covered.





you're right they do have a life but like I said, they chose it, they weren't drafted by force. heroes feel it's their moral responsability to use their gifts for the greater good. It doesn't mean they want to make it their exclusive job. Imposing patrols makes it an exclusive job.
Neither were cops. And being a part time hero is a bad one. Because then you pick and choose when it's a good time for you to save lives. That's a poor hero. :down




If I steal a loaf of bread to feed my starving family, am I not commiting a crime? If I use super-powers to stop a crime because I'm the only one around and I'm not registered, am I not a vigilante despite the circumstances? And yet according to the law I should be arrested in either case.

Like I've said, there are certain situations where people are exempt. But if you're stealing instead of going to outreach programs and such, you kind of deserve it.


See that's something that you didn't see up until recently. The Heroes of the MU used to be about being heroes. Not celebrities.

Did you really expect all hero's to be heroic types, or of a massive variety?



And yet I hear about cops making mistakes all the times.



And yet I don't hear about cops getting thrown into jail left and right for those mistakes.

[Kevin]

another question, do you trust SHIELD?

[LouFerignoDemon]

another question, do you trust SHIELD?

Better question. Do I trust ANY organization that purposely and obviously hides secrets from the public? Of course not. It's their JOB to not let me know. It's like the CIA or NSA of America.

[Fading]

Actually, after reading the Emma post in the Marvel Comics section, it's easy to see how it could get far outta hand.

Adding onto my post just a bit up, take a look at one of his pics in that post. Where a guy who simly hates mutants bombs Xavier's school, and what 40 student's die. Now imagine this, but if a powerful villain knew this, now add this as a possible problem to every Marvel hero. Like I said before, many villains have gotten into the MU's government files before, plenty of villains with super powers dealing with computers. Imagine now that it's out all the names are registered, one will get in and sell the names to the highest bidder.

What was once an occasional building collapse from fighting hero's will become hero's stepping outta the mall with their GF's and Wives or children and having a sniper bullet wizzing at them. And also like in that thread Emma said some good things to Stark and Ms. Marvel, like "where were the Avenger's when Genosha was bombed, or when the school was hit". The MU government can offer protection and monitary compensation, but can they defend hero's from multiple villains when millitary wpns don't even harm half of them. No witness protection agency in the world could protect a hero's family if a powerful enough villain found out their identity and hunted them down.

[Grim Goblin]

See, most of those teams fight a certain set of enemies. Or you can go with teams LIKE the New Warriors, or Young Avengers, who seem to just be a hit and miss sort of deal. The only team aside from the major organized teams that practice and train that actually had a tactic was the Runaways. That's it. The Avengers train together, the X-Men train together. The big teams TRAIN together.

So I don't see what you're getting at there.

Well since they train regularly, what government is going to do a better job with that. Also, any hero with a good deal of experience knows how to handle the usual situations. When experienced heroes act like newbs, I call foul :mad:

And it only makes sense if the damage is caused in part by their superhumans. The good samaritan is not under the jurisdiction of the government, and thus, has no responsibilities to him. So I don't see why it doesn't make sense to you.

because the damage was partly caused fighting a super-powered villain who isn't on the government's payroll. It was most likely unavoidable. registered or not, the heroes involved would be part of the destruction so there shouldn't be a reson to play hypocrits

"Hey guy. I know we didn't train you, ask for your help, and I know that you decided to go do reckless things all on your own. The millions of dollars you did in reckless damage that our team could have minimized is on us, despite the fact we have no reason to cover you."

Again, existing teams should be versed in the art of minimizing damage by now. Saying they're not is a plot device. Entertaining but meaningless.


Crooks cause some form of destruction everyday while trying to escape the authorities. Despite the fact that the cops may follow procedures to a T. What makes you think that experienced heroes would be more efficient if they register than if they don't?

[LouFerignoDemon]

Actually, after reading the Emma post in the Marvel Comics section, it's easy to see how it could get far outta hand.

Adding onto my post just a bit up, take a look at one of his pics in that post. Where a guy who simly hates mutants bombs Xavier's school, and what 40 student's die. Now imagine this, but if a powerful villain knew this, now add this as a possible problem to every Marvel hero. Like I said before, many villains have gotten into the MU's government files before, plenty of villains with super powers dealing with computers. Imagine now that it's out all the names are registered, one will get in and sell the names to the highest bidder.

What was once an occasional building collapse from fighting hero's will become hero's stepping outta the mall with their GF's and Wives or children and having a sniper bullet wizzing at them. And also like in that thread Emma said some good things to Stark and Ms. Marvel, like "where were the Avenger's when Genosha was bombed, or when the school was hit". The MU government can offer protection and monitary compensation, but can they defend hero's from multiple villains when millitary wpns don't even harm half of them. No witness protection agency in the world could protect a hero's family if a powerful enough villain found out their identity and hunted them down.


You guys make it sound like they couldn't just follow the hero home while they're not looking, and find out that way. EVERY hero has their identity discovered at one time or another by their villans. And families have been attacked before. It's not exactly uncommon as it stands. People seem to forget this little fact.

As for the mutant thing, Emma was right. The Avengers did crap little to help the mutants. And it usually only occurred when it affected the Avengers. (Of course, if a mutant problem came up, and the Avengers showed up in every single title to solve someone else's problems, the stories would be crap.) But with the new registration, and especially given the status of ONE, chances are that hero's would be much more mutant cooperative. And definitely judging that Stark and Danvers are going to be big players, the treatment of mutants would be MUCH better.

[Grim Goblin]

And yet I don't hear about cops getting thrown into jail left and right for those mistakes.

Which makes you think what public reaction would be if a hero screws up and doesn't get arrested.

It's like saying to people

"Sure Speedball screwed up and caused the death of a bunch of people but he's registered now (it's an example) and after a good lecture, he finally see the error of his ways. No need to fear ma'am, your in good hands with him around!"

I'm sure the people will feel REEAAAAL safe :rolleyes:

What was the point in forcing registration to appease the public if all you do is slap your guys on the wrists and give them a lecture if they screws up?

[LouFerignoDemon]

Well since they train regularly, what government is going to do a better job with that. Also, any hero with a good deal of experience knows how to handle the usual situations. When experienced heroes act like newbs, I call foul :mad:
Crap, looks like I gotta type in italics because this this wants to piss me off. Anyways. BIG teams train together. That's the problem. Only the big teams do. And even then, the big teams tend to NOT train with other big teams, so when a team up is in order, they really wouldn't function too well together past the basic basic maneuvers. This would force new teams and combinations that would make almost every single deployment affective.

And since smaller, younger teams don't seem to train at all, this would actually train them.

This would especially work with "loner" types.

Any good hero that's handled situations alone tend to make crappy teammates. Teamwork comes with training, not just loner experience.



because the damage was partly caused fighting a super-powered villain who isn't on the government's payroll. It was most likely unavoidable. registered or not, the heroes involved would be part of the destruction so there shouldn't be a reson to play hypocrits

Why would a villan be on payroll, and why would the government send it out? And if a person just decides to take care of the problem all on his own with no need for them to, they should be adults and take responsibility. Only children believe they should be able to avoid responsibility. And if you can't be responsible enough to do that, you shouldn't be doing heroics.

So here we go with the thing again. If a registered team makes the destruction, it should be up to the government to make amends for the battle. But if it's just some Joe Schmuck unregistered combatant who decided to do things his own way, the government is not responsible for his actions, and thus, not responsible for his debts which the unregistered combatant should pay for.


Again, existing teams should be versed in the art of minimizing damage by now. Saying they're not is a plot device. Entertaining but meaningless.

No, it's realistic among smaller younger teams. Did the New Warrior have a plan aside from "storming in" before they were caught? Or Young Avengers? The only youth team that ever strategized fights continuously so far was Runaways.

Crooks cause some form of destruction everyday while trying to escape the authorities. Despite the fact that the cops may follow procedures to a T. What makes you think that experienced heroes would be more efficient if they register than if they don't?

Once again. TRAINING. It's what it's MEANT for. That's the whole damn point for it.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Which makes you think what public reaction would be if a hero screws up and doesn't get arrested.

It's like saying to people (for example)

"Sure Speedball screwed up and caused the death of a bunch of people but he's registered now and after a good lecture, he finally see the error of his ways. No need to fear ma'am, your in good hands with him around!"

I'm sure the people will feel REEAAAAL safe :rolleyes:

What was the point in forcing registration to appease the public if all you do is slap the guy on the hand and give him a lecture if he screws up?
Same reason they don't do it to a cop. The public understands a mistake, but not a blatant disregard. If a hero obviously just did the wrong thing, THEN they demand stuff. Same with cops.

With Speedball, that's a tricky subject. The public would probably be uneasy with it, seeing how he basically led a team foolhardy into disaster, and would eventually speak out against it. He WAS offered the chance to register, but he refused it anyway. So we don't know what would happen. Chances are he'd be the first registered person to undergo some sort of discipline for his actions. But we won't know that since he didn't decide to register.

And dude, seriously, you should actually look up crime and punishment stuff. You give it extremes, and not realisms. It's not like they're just not punished no matter what, and it's not like they get punished for every little thing. This, like everything else in the real world and comic universes, is in the middle.

[Shadowknight]

You guys make it sound like they couldn't just follow the hero home while they're not looking, and find out that way.
Hey. happened with the Green Goblin. And when they find out, they have sex with your girlfriend who gives birth to their love child, then they throw her off a bridge.

Under the SHRA, EVERYONE has the potential for the Green Goblin to have sex with their significant others. Do we really need more lil' Osborne's running around? EVEN MORE GOBLINS?! Do you!?

Sorry, freaked out there. Too many bad bad bad GG stories.

Hobgoblin still kicks ass, though,

[LouFerignoDemon]

Most villans don't even HAVE the mental capacity to hack into government files. And chances are, with the addition of the hero's, their security will increase greatly. Or much more preferrably, move to hard copy.

Not to say that their identities won't be found out. And chances are, if the Registration sticks, they WILL be, but probably by someone like Spymaster or someone who charges hefty prices.


But like I'm saying, they'll get found out one way or the other. The government is more or less the least likely way.

[Kevin]

Better question. Do I trust ANY organization that purposely and obviously hides secrets from the public? Of course not. It's their JOB to not let me know. It's like the CIA or NSA of America. this isn't about secretes anymore. this is about power. know why i don't trust the SHIELD? they and certain people could care less if heroes existed or not. they'd probably be happy if they all vanished, and not only heroes, anyone with a power. they've shown that with how they treat mutants. J. jonah Jameson is one those those people. what i'm am trying to say is that they can't be trusted because once they have heroes on their side, they can put them in any situation they choose... even one they know you may not come back from. why would they? many reasons. it could be the disobeying orders facter again, but more likely, it could be because they can. if i were a hero i wouldn't want anyone to know what i could do with my powers. they would study them ultil they've found a way to kill me. yes, they could use the excuse that it was just in case i was mindcontroled or something, but i don't like that. if anything, i'd have my own plan to take myself out if need be. the heroes should be a community, and work WITH SHIELD, not forced. they can make it work, but again, they want to control, they want to have the power.

[LouFerignoDemon]

this isn't about secretes anymore. this is about power. know why i don't trust the SHIELD? they and certain people could care less if heroes existed or not. they'd probably be happy if they all vanished, and not only heroes, anyone with a power. they've shown that with how they treat mutants. J. jonah Jameson is one those those people. what i'm am trying to say is that they can't be trusted because once they have heroes on their side, they can put them in any situation they choose... even one they know you may not come back from. why would they? many reasons. it could be the disobeying orders facter again, but more likely, it could be because they can. if i were a hero i wouldn't want anyone to know what i could do with my powers. they would study them ultil they've found a way to kill me. yes, they could use the excuse that it was just in case i was mindcontroled or something, but i don't like that. if anything, i'd have my own plan to take myself out if need be. the heroes should be a community, and work WITH SHIELD, not forced. they can make it work, but again, they want to control, they want to have the power.


Actually, more than less, SHIELD has acted in the people's best interests and kept them safe really. They're not amassing an army to overtake America or anything. Chances are that the Superhero's will be affiliated with SHIELD, but will really be their own department, since they'll be less affiliated with espionage, and more affilitated with law enforcement.

And if you were a hero that wasn't going to let anybody know about all your powers, then you could never USE all your powers, and cut short your potential, making you a relatively broken hero, and far less effective than you could be. Though your statement there is a big pride issue it seems like to me. Hero's want to remain individual and secretive. They're basically doing what SHIELD does now, only they answer to nobody in that way. And if SHIELD truly operated in a "get rid of the hero's" fashion, Captain America would've been dead LOOOOOOONG ago.

[taskmaster]

Actually, more than less, SHIELD has acted in the people's best interests and kept them safe really. They're not amassing an army to overtake America or anything. Chances are that the Superhero's will be affiliated with SHIELD, but will really be their own department, since they'll be less affiliated with espionage, and more affilitated with law enforcement.

And if you were a hero that wasn't going to let anybody know about all your powers, then you could never USE all your powers, and cut short your potential, making you a relatively broken hero, and far less effective than you could be. Though your statement there is a big pride issue it seems like to me. Hero's want to remain individual and secretive. They're basically doing what SHIELD does now, only they answer to nobody in that way. And if SHIELD truly operated in a "get rid of the hero's" fashion, Captain America would've been dead LOOOOOOONG ago.

But this isn't Nick Fury's SHIELD anymore and I won't trust anything they do until he's back.

[LouFerignoDemon]

But this isn't Nick Fury's SHIELD anymore and I won't trust anything they do until he's back.


Which actually brings up something I've been thinking about heavily. It's not below Fury to manipulate his team to gain whatever ends he desires. So what's his involvement with Cap's team? Does he want them to maybe discredit Hill so he can move back in?


But really, Hill seems to actually want what's best for the American public, where Fury basically broke rules left and right to do what HE wanted to do.

And one other thing I've been thinking about.


You guys remember when Goliath at the beginning of the fight in issue 3 yelled, "Head for the water!! GO!!!" Why did he want them going to the water? It's not like they arrived by boat. And since several of Tony's teams were fliers, a boat would be useless anyway. A human made submersible would be usless against Iron Man, and if they had some sort of tunnel there, they would be giving it away. But what if they got the water, Iron Man couldn't pursue, since it would be entering Namor's domain? We know Namor will be involved. What if he already is?

I know I said I doubt Namor would be harboring people, but it is a possibility.

[Kevin]

Actually, more than less, SHIELD has acted in the people's best interests and kept them safe really. They're not amassing an army to overtake America or anything. Chances are that the Superhero's will be affiliated with SHIELD, but will really be their own department, since they'll be less affiliated with espionage, and more affilitated with law enforcement.

And if you were a hero that wasn't going to let anybody know about all your powers, then you could never USE all your powers, and cut short your potential, making you a relatively broken hero, and far less effective than you could be. Though your statement there is a big pride issue it seems like to me. Hero's want to remain individual and secretive. They're basically doing what SHIELD does now, only they answer to nobody in that way. And if SHIELD truly operated in a "get rid of the hero's" fashion, Captain America would've been dead LOOOOOOONG ago.

For the most part, captain american has been on their side, and in any case, they government MADE him, but that i'll talk about later. anyway, can you honestly tell me that you can trust SHIELD and the government? we've seen it for over a year now... SOMETHING IS UP WITH SHIELD, and it's none too good. you've read X-men:198? you saw what they did to the mutants? did you believe one word they said? did you see how they worked? do you actually think they dont have a plan for EVERY metahuman? i'm sure they do, and they have their finger on the button if it every needs to be pressed. but you're right, they do have the people's safety in mind... but is a metahuman not also a person? yes they have powers, but does that give them the right to exploit that? most people are treating heroes like they're not even human, that's why i said before why the people are stupid. they only think of themselves and not others, but sadly, that's IS mostly human.

i have more points about stuff. by the way, am i doing good? i mean with the examples and stuff?

[taskmaster]

Which actually brings up something I've been thinking about heavily. It's not below Fury to manipulate his team to gain whatever ends he desires. So what's his involvement with Cap's team? Does he want them to maybe discredit Hill so he can move back in?


But really, Hill seems to actually want what's best for the American public, where Fury basically broke rules left and right to do what HE wanted to do.



Fury would have handled this a lot better. As you said, SHIELD already knows most of the S.I., so most of the heroes shouldn't have to register. The inexperienced teams could be trained without having to register. Shield tells the people a little lie to help the people fell safer, the younger teams learn how to handle themselves better. It's win- win. But no, Maria Hill had to attack right after the bill was passed, without thinking of any other options and start the war that we have now.

[LouFerignoDemon]

For the most part, captain american has been on their side, and in any case, they government MADE him, but that i'll talk about later. anyway, can you honestly tell me that you can trust SHIELD and the government? we've seen it for over a year now... SOMETHING IS UP WITH SHIELD, and it's none too good. you've read X-men:198? you saw what they did to the mutants? did you believe one word they said? did you see how they worked? do you actually think they dont have a plan for EVERY metahuman? i'm sure they do, and they have their finger on the button if it every needs to be pressed. but you're right, they do have the people's safety in mind... but is a metahuman not also a person? yes they have powers, but does that give them the right to exploit that? most people are treating heroes like they're not even human, that's why i said before why the people are stupid. they only think of themselves and not others, but sadly, that's IS mostly human.

i have more points about stuff. by the way, am i doing good? i mean with the examples and stuff?

But people want the hero's to be above the limitations of being human. So why worry about their humanity now? I mean, if they obviously are above being controlled by the law like everybody else, why should we consider any other human factor about them?

SHIELD has always had plans for metahumans. They employ them even. SHIELD is really just as mysterious and controlling as they ever were. Are they a bit more forceful now? Sure. But they're really pretty much the same as they ever were.

[LouFerignoDemon]

Fury would have handled this a lot better. As you said, SHIELD already knows most of the S.I., so most of the heroes shouldn't have to register. The inexperienced teams could be trained without having to register. Shield tells the people a little lie to help the people fell safer, the younger teams learn how to handle themselves better. It's win- win. But no, Maria Hill had to attack right after the bill was passed, without thinking of any other options and start the war that we have now.

Like I said, registration is a lot more for the public rather than the government. And if you train the younger teams, you should be responsible for them, and the only way both could happen is through registration and employment. If you go around training non government factions, that could be likened to funding and training terrorist cells. Nobody else gets SHIELD training without being part of SHIELD, and people work their whole LIVES to get there. I don't see why kids should get far better treatment simply because of costumes and codenames.

[taskmaster]

Like I said, registration is a lot more for the public rather than the government. And if you train the younger teams, you should be responsible for them, and the only way both could happen is through registration and employment. If you go around training non government factions, that could be likened to funding and training terrorist cells. Nobody else gets SHIELD training without being part of SHIELD, and people work their whole LIVES to get there. I don't see why kids should get far better treatment simply because of costumes and codenames.

But SHIELD wouldn't be training them, more experienced teams like The Avengers would be. Plus, it wouldn't be the first time SHIELD lied to the public. They could just say that the heroes are registering.

[Kevin]

But people want the hero's to be above the limitations of being human. So why worry about their humanity now? I mean, if they obviously are above being controlled by the law like everybody else, why should we consider any other human factor about them?

SHIELD has always had plans for metahumans. They employ them even. SHIELD is really just as mysterious and controlling as they ever were. Are they a bit more forceful now? Sure. But they're really pretty much the same as they ever were. why worry about their humanity now? because their humans. they are just like you and me, and once people forget that, so will the heroes. if i were a hero "why should i care about them and their family if they don't care about me and mine?" is it like that now? no, but it could very well lead to that. and another thing, why can't heroes have secretes, everyone else can. and SHIELD, they got their buttloads of secretes, but you know what the only difference between them and the heroes? they can cover their asses better and faster.

[LouFerignoDemon]

But SHIELD wouldn't be training them, more experienced teams like The Avengers would be. Plus, it wouldn't be the first time SHIELD lied to the public. They could just say that the heroes are registering.

Agreed. But the training would be obvious, and it wouldn't be the first time anybody's found out about goings on at SHIELD either. The political backlash would be a disaster. And as long as Hill is at bat, there's no pretending about registration. I don't even think FURY would bend the rules that far.

The older teams, if there were no registration, should train the younger teams. But unfortunately, it's going to be standardized training, so it'd have to be issued by SHIELD most likely.

(Which brings up a little attitude problem I have with young in the Young Avengers series concerning this, but anyways)

[LouFerignoDemon]

why worry about their humanity now? because their humans. they are just like you and me, and once people forget that, so will the heroes. if i were a hero "why should i care about them and their family if they don't care about me and mine?" is it like that now? no, but it could very well lead to that. and another thing, why can't heroes have secretes, everyone else can. and SHIELD, they got their buttloads of secretes, but you know what the only difference between them and the heroes? they can cover their asses better and faster.

They they should have to obey laws like every other human if they want human rights. They can't say, "We're above human laws, but we demand human rights." Because then that would be saying they're literally better than we are. And unfortunately, they suffer from the human condition.

And by secrets, the only ones humans really have are like secret affairs on their spouses. They get busted for tax fraud, and it's jail time. And the CIA and NSA can have those secrets, being how their organizations, and not individual humans.

So if the hero's want to be treated like humans, then they can't go around thinking human rules don't apply to them.

[taskmaster]

Agreed. But the training would be obvious, and it wouldn't be the first time anybody's found out about goings on at SHIELD either. The political backlash would be a disaster. And as long as Hill is at bat, there's no pretending about registration. I don't even think FURY would bend the rules that far.

The older teams, if there were no registration, should train the younger teams. But unfortunately, it's going to be standardized training, so it'd have to be issued by SHIELD most likely.

(Which brings up a little attitude problem I have with young in the Young Avengers series concerning this, but anyways)

It doesn't make sense that people would be angry with training without registration. This way the heroes who protect the people are better at it and the heroes are also safer.

[LouFerignoDemon]

It doesn't make sense that people would be angry with training without registration. This way the heroes who protect the people are better at it and the heroes are also safer.

Because they're training people proficiently that can't be controlled or held accountable for. It could be likened to training an opposing country. You give them the skills and ability to basically subterfuge and overrun the country some day simply because they're not checked on regularly.

The people would probably be just as safe with the way Registration APPEARS to be working. Like I said, they look more like a police force, they'd probably be doing the same thing they're doing now, just with reprocussions for certain things.

[Kevin]

They they should have to obey laws like every other human if they want human rights. They can't say, "We're above human laws, but we demand human rights." Because then that would be saying they're literally better than we are. And unfortunately, they suffer from the human condition.

And by secrets, the only ones humans really have are like secret affairs on their spouses. They get busted for tax fraud, and it's jail time. And the CIA and NSA can have those secrets, being how their organizations, and not individual humans.

So if the hero's want to be treated like humans, then they can't go around thinking human rules don't apply to them. i'm not saying they should think they're above the laws, a part of me agrees with the SHRA, but as soon as they attacked captain america because he wouldn't go around arresting his friends they lost me. i think there is a way they can work together, but they chose the more extreme way.

and about secretes, i'm gay, but i had to keep that to myself for a very long time because people have a problem with that. when i kept it a secrete it was my right to. not only could it hurt me if someone found out about it, it could have hurt my family if they accepted it. same thing with a hero, they have they're secrete id's for the same reason i kept my secrete. them and their family.

there's a reason why i'm with cap, and it's for human rights. i approve with him fight for what he believes in because, god as my witness, i would die fighting for gay rights. not just for myself, but for everyone. my case and the civil war case are very different, yes, but at the same time, i can see how they're the same.

[LouFerignoDemon]

i'm not saying they should think they're above the laws, a part of me agrees with the SHRA, but as soon as they attacked captain america because he wouldn't go around arresting his friends they lost me. i think there is a way they can work together, but they chose the more extreme way.

and about secretes, i'm gay, but i had to keep that to myself for a very long time because people have a problem with that. when i kept it a secrete it was my right to. not only could it hurt me if someone found out about it, it could have hurt my family if they accepted it. same thing with a hero, they have they're secrete id's for the same reason i kept my secrete. them and their family.

there's a reason why i'm with cap, and it's for human rights. i approve with him fight for what he believes in because, god as my witness, i would die fighting for gay rights. not just for myself, but for everyone. my case and the civil war case are very different, yes, but at the same time, i can see how they're the same.

Because Captain America decided to go anti-registration. And Hill knows about Captain America, he fights. So basically, they're just doing their job right then and there.

But you being homosexual didn't put anybody's life at risk. It didn't make you responsible for anything. It's not like you could recieve training to make you better at it. It didn't cause property damage. And it didn't destroy people's lives in the process from a culmulative of those reasons above.

[Kevin]

Because Captain America decided to go anti-registration. And Hill knows about Captain America, he fights. So basically, they're just doing their job right then and there.

But you being homosexual didn't put anybody's life at risk. It didn't make you responsible for anything. It's not like you could recieve training to make you better at it. It didn't cause property damage. And it didn't destroy people's lives in the process from a culmulative of those reasons above. kidding right? i already said that the cases are very different, but at the same time the same. and my life and my families life is at risk because some people hate gays. some people want us to disapaer or suffer. some people take it into their own hands to make gays suffer. the good thing is that alot of peopel DO accept it, but there are people still out there who wont change their ways.

[LouFerignoDemon]

kidding right? i already said that the cases are very different, but at the same time the same. and my life and my families life is at risk because some people hate gays. some people want us to disapaer or suffer. some people take it into their own hands to make gays suffer. the good thing is that alot of peopel DO accept it, but there are people still out there who wont change their ways.


Yeah, but YOU didn't put people at risk. I'm pretty sure you didn't make the decision to be homosexual. A hate group, and you going out and engaging in fights are different things. I'm damn well aware of hate groups. But it's usually limited to just you, and maybe your family. Which is no different than a cop, or a superhero's family and friends. But your ACTIONS don't put other people in danger. You're comparing apples and oranges.

[Kevin]

Yeah, but YOU didn't put people at risk. I'm pretty sure you didn't make the decision to be homosexual. A hate group, and you going out and engaging in fights are different things. I'm damn well aware of hate groups. But it's usually limited to just you, and maybe your family. Which is no different than a cop, or a superhero's family and friends. But your ACTIONS don't put other people in danger. You're comparing apples and oranges. okay, but let's go off topic a bit. did the mutants choose to be mutants? most mutants are heroes in the MU, but they get treated worse than the other heroes. they could be five years old with a power to, i don't know, grow long finger nails, that's who they are and they can't change that, but what if they grew a few nails and lightly scracted someone. they are now a risk considered to some people. them scracting someone is an action. and gays can't do anything considered an action that would put people in danger? say i'm walking with my friends one night, they're all straight. i walk pretty stiff but that's how i walk, what if i decided to add a litlle twich to my walk? i talk regular, what if i decided to talk like a female or with a lisp? i'm not a touchy feely person, but what if i decided to combine the lisp and the walk and put my arm around my friend? they could be natural, but regaurdless, those little things are actions. if someone or a group of people saw me doing those and they happened to be a hate group or just hate gays, right there, my actions, natural or unnatural as they may be put my freinds at risk because they were with me. and some people, just because my friends were with me, would be thought as gay also and there leads in them being but into danger. but as i already said, being gay and the hereos case are very different.

[Fading]

You know what'll be really good with this whole Civil War line tho?

~Spoiler~

It turns out that the Green Goblin is really the president of the United States. It's been retconned, and he actually made the Virus Tony took. Also Nitro is really the Green Goblin's kid, he found out who Luke Cage was, so he kidnapped Jessica Jones and slept with her after taking her to the past. He guided Nitro to do what he did, and used subliminal messages coupled with the virus to make Tony go wacko.

It also turns out Tony is a Spiderman clone, and so is the rest of the Avengers and so are the F4 with Invis woman being a female Spidey. At which point Morlun went around plucking their eyes out for his spiderman/clone collection. Each one evolved in different ways (all their individual origions will be retconned, F4 never went to space). It also turns out that SHIELD is a bunch of Green Goblin clones.

Civil War ends not with Hulk coming back ticked, but with Spiderman and his clones getting ticked Dragonball Z style, and going super mega spider sayin. Spiderman grows 6ft. claws called sporks, and will get infinitely strong everytime he cracks a corny joke. He calls on every spider in the world with his newfound 'Speaking with spiders' power (think 60's aquaman), and have them bite Norman at once. He then reveals he in reality is the real Spiderman and Parker is the clone, and had set a bomb in the clone, he pushes the button and civil war ends with a dead spiderman on the ground and goblin down.

Several months later (this has already happened) comics sales went down. Marvel re-retconned all of this to make it where Spiderman was really in the Green Goblin costume, and Goblin was in the Spidey costume because the dry cleaner switched their costumes. Spiderman goes cosmic to avoid death at the poisonous spiders (thought it is revealed later on he could have survived and didn't need to go cosmic again).

Marvel comics start to go bank rupt, so they decide to use the mind erasing technology they used to make us all forget the Sentry. They retcon it again to the point were at now.

~End Spoiler~

I just remembered all of this, and thought I'd share.

[Darthphere]

You know what'll be really good with this whole Civil War line tho?

~Spoiler~

It turns out that the Green Goblin is really the president of the United States. It's been retconned, and he actually made the Virus Tony took. Also Nitro is really the Green Goblin's kid, he found out who Luke Cage was, so he kidnapped Jessica Jones and slept with her after taking her to the past. He guided Nitro to do what he did, and used subliminal messages coupled with the virus to make Tony go wacko.

It also turns out Tony is a Spiderman clone, and so is the rest of the Avengers and so are the F4 with Invis woman being a female Spidey. At which point Morlun went around plucking their eyes out for his spiderman/clone collection. Each one evolved in different ways (all their individual origions will be retconned, F4 never went to space). It also turns out that SHIELD is a bunch of Green Goblin clones.

Civil War ends not with Hulk coming back ticked, but with Spiderman and his clones getting ticked Dragonball Z style, and going super mega spider sayin. Spiderman grows 6ft. claws called sporks, and will get infinitely strong everytime he cracks a corny joke. He calls on every spider in the world with his newfound 'Speaking with spiders' power (think 60's aquaman), and have them bite Norman at once. He then reveals he in reality is the real Spiderman and Parker is the clone, and had set a bomb in the clone, he pushes the button and civil war ends with a dead spiderman on the ground and goblin down.

Several months later (this has already happened) comics sales went down. Marvel re-retconned all of this to make it where Spiderman was really in the Green Goblin costume, and Goblin was in the Spidey costume because the dry cleaner switched their costumes. Spiderman goes cosmic to avoid death at the poisonous spiders (thought it is revealed later on he could have survived and didn't need to go cosmic again).

Marvel comics start to go bank rupt, so they decide to use the mind erasing technology they used to make us all forget the Sentry. They retcon it again to the point were at now.

~End Spoiler~

I just remembered all of this, and thought I'd share.


No.

[Tropico]

You know what'll be really good with this whole Civil War line tho?

~Spoiler~

It turns out that the Green Goblin is really the president of the United States. It's been retconned, and he actually made the Virus Tony took. Also Nitro is really the Green Goblin's kid, he found out who Luke Cage was, so he kidnapped Jessica Jones and slept with her after taking her to the past. He guided Nitro to do what he did, and used subliminal messages coupled with the virus to make Tony go wacko.

It also turns out Tony is a Spiderman clone, and so is the rest of the Avengers and so are the F4 with Invis woman being a female Spidey. At which point Morlun went around plucking their eyes out for his spiderman/clone collection. Each one evolved in different ways (all their individual origions will be retconned, F4 never went to space). It also turns out that SHIELD is a bunch of Green Goblin clones.

Civil War ends not with Hulk coming back ticked, but with Spiderman and his clones getting ticked Dragonball Z style, and going super mega spider sayin. Spiderman grows 6ft. claws called sporks, and will get infinitely strong everytime he cracks a corny joke. He calls on every spider in the world with his newfound 'Speaking with spiders' power (think 60's aquaman), and have them bite Norman at once. He then reveals he in reality is the real Spiderman and Parker is the clone, and had set a bomb in the clone, he pushes the button and civil war ends with a dead spiderman on the ground and goblin down.

Several months later (this has already happened) comics sales went down. Marvel re-retconned all of this to make it where Spiderman was really in the Green Goblin costume, and Goblin was in the Spidey costume because the dry cleaner switched their costumes. Spiderman goes cosmic to avoid death at the poisonous spiders (thought it is revealed later on he could have survived and didn't need to go cosmic again).

Marvel comics start to go bank rupt, so they decide to use the mind erasing technology they used to make us all forget the Sentry. They retcon it again to the point were at now.

~End Spoiler~

I just remembered all of this, and thought I'd share.


Is this supposed to be an attempt at a funny or an out of line comment? :confused:

[Darthphere]

I think both, it failed on both accounts.

[Fading]

Wow, can't even make a bad joke/satire. The biggest thing of the Civil War so far is Spiderman's unmasking, and the whole will he switch thing is.....

Sigh...nm. Not trying to be rude but either get senses of humor, or don't bash someone. Plenty of bad jokes on here and ppl don't say much about them. You could have passed it up, sometimes I think ppl just post here to start arguments, and are so up tight chuckling a bit would snap their face muscles because smilings too much an effort.

Seriously lighten up guys, or ignore it. It's not like my light hearted comment was bashing anything.....damn lol.

Edit - or let me guess, you'll make some smart ass comment like, "We'll say something nice when you post something funny/good/worth it"....Sry just some ppl who can do nothing constructive but tear others down...just ticks me off a bit lol. Why am I posting on a saturday anyway, say what you want, time to go do something.

[Fantasyartist]

I think Cap is in the right basically. When the Soviet Super Soldiers defected to America(# Cap-351-352) they cited the reason -the then Soviet government's propensity to micromanage and supervise their activities-exactly the same principle more or less the SHRA is for the Avengers,Fantastic Four et al!!
The SHRA is to superheroes what Prohibition was to the consumption and purchase of alcohol( 1919-1933). It's nobody's business who the heroes are- registration is just a cover for control and supervision(these are HEROES after all!!!) Whatever happened to Ronald Reagan's "Get government off the backs of the people"? and as for vigilanteism this is a red herring( the Avengers, FF, Spidey et al have always cooperated with the NYPD, Pentagon, SHIELD, FBI, CIA, DEA).
The real question for Cap is "do I represent my country-or my government?" as a hero.
True patriotism sometimes means defying your government!

Terry

[LouFerignoDemon]

okay, but let's go off topic a bit. did the mutants choose to be mutants? most mutants are heroes in the MU, but they get treated worse than the other heroes. they could be five years old with a power to, i don't know, grow long finger nails, that's who they are and they can't change that, but what if they grew a few nails and lightly scracted someone. they are now a risk considered to some people. them scracting someone is an action. and gays can't do anything considered an action that would put people in danger? say i'm walking with my friends one night, they're all straight. i walk pretty stiff but that's how i walk, what if i decided to add a litlle twich to my walk? i talk regular, what if i decided to talk like a female or with a lisp? i'm not a touchy feely person, but what if i decided to combine the lisp and the walk and put my arm around my friend? they could be natural, but regaurdless, those little things are actions. if someone or a group of people saw me doing those and they happened to be a hate group or just hate gays, right there, my actions, natural or unnatural as they may be put my freinds at risk because they were with me. and some people, just because my friends were with me, would be thought as gay also and there leads in them being but into danger. but as i already said, being gay and the hereos case are very different.


You actually COMPARED gay rights to hero rights, so that's where my response came from. As for the mutants? They don't have to be registered. They're staying out of the whole registration bit, since they're not asking permission to go out and bust crime and super crime, and dealing only in mutant related matters.


As for being with your friends and such? Let's say a car pulled up along side you guys, and sure you guys got beat up pretty good. That's FAR different than you going out and looking for trouble that usually end up in explosions and cars being thrown, with passengers inside, into store shop windows and such. Most hate crimes aren't NEARLY as dangerous as someone with explosive powers trying to stop another with explosive powers.


See, your friends go WITH you knowing this might happen. Going out and stopping a supervillan in a huge fight puts people who didn't even want to BE there in severe danger. Most super villans, on the basic street level, just want to knock up some store and make out with the cash, and the injuries are usually just one bruised person who was being used as a hostage. Enter a hero into that equation, and it turns into a fight.

But that still doesn't change the fact that you HAVE to follow human laws, where you seem to feel that superhumans should be above that. That they're somehow in no need of having a check or control. If that's the case, they should just trust EVERYBODY, and let the public take care of itself and abolish all law enforcement altogether.

[TheCorpulent1]

The X-Men were already registered with the government anyway. Claremont introduced that whole XSE bit in Uncanny X-Men a while ago. The X-Men were supposed to be official, deputized law enforcers for the mutant community, recognized by the government.

[Tropico]

Sigh...nm. Not trying to be rude but either get senses of humor, or don't bash someone.

Ditto.:D:up:

[LouFerignoDemon]

I think Cap is in the right basically. When the Soviet Super Soldiers defected to America(# Cap-351-352) they cited the reason -the then Soviet government's propensity to micromanage and supervise their activities-exactly the same principle more or less the SHRA is for the Avengers,Fantastic Four et al!!
The SHRA is to superheroes what Prohibition was to the consumption and purchase of alcohol( 1919-1933). It's nobody's business who the heroes are- registration is just a cover for control and supervision(these are HEROES after all!!!) Whatever happened to Ronald Reagan's "Get government off the backs of the people"? and as for vigilanteism this is a red herring( the Avengers, FF, Spidey et al have always cooperated with the NYPD, Pentagon, SHIELD, FBI, CIA, DEA).
The real question for Cap is "do I represent my country-or my government?" as a hero.
True patriotism sometimes means defying your government!

Terry

I agree Patriotism is someone acting in the best actions for your country, but that would imply your country is doing something AGAINST public interest. Let's use drunk Iron Man. Iron Man is a hero. Would I like a drunk Iron Man out there, get into all sorts of destruction, get some friends and family killed because he wasn't sound of mind, and watch him get off simply because there's no way to control that?


Here's the thing. WE know they're hero's. WE know they, for the most part, that they try to act in our best interest. But this isn't meant to be for us as readers, but for the public in THEIR universe. They don't have the priviledge of knowing the things we do. And even then, there's several vigilante types which are far too violent. (Cardiac anybody? Punisher?) And even then, we know several of the hero's have lapses of judgement, and do things against our favor. They let personal things get in the way and such.

[LouFerignoDemon]

The X-Men were already registered with the government anyway. Claremont introduced that whole XSE bit in Uncanny X-Men a while ago. The X-Men were supposed to be official, deputized law enforcers for the mutant community, recognized by the government.


But the Registration is different, since the X-Men are only officially recognized in mutant affairs, instead of over all human criminal and super human criminal affairs.

[Darthphere]

But the Registration is different, since the X-Men are only officially recognized in mutant affairs, instead of over all human criminal and super human criminal affairs.


And the X-Men dont really ever deal with affairs outside of those involving mutants.

[LouFerignoDemon]

And the X-Men dont really ever deal with affairs outside of those involving mutants.


Exactly. And technically, they're really not suppossed to.


I doubt the government would bust them though if they were attacked by Supervillans, or a supervillan attack was nearby, and the X-Men were there to save lives and such.

[Darthphere]

I dont think so either. I remember an issue of Astonishing where they were taking down one of Mole Man's creations and the FF came by and were pretty much like hey this is our turf.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, that's what I meant. The X-Men haven't supported the SHRA by registering, but they haven't supported the anti-reg people by resisting either. They're just going about business as usual and the government is fine with it because they've already registered their identities and they limit themselves to mutant affairs, so what does the government care?

[LouFerignoDemon]

They don't care. lol

[Tropico]

Yeah, that's what I meant. The X-Men haven't supported the SHRA by registering, but they haven't supported the anti-reg people by resisting either. They're just going about business as usual and the government is fine with it because they've already registered their identities and they limit themselves to mutant affairs, so what does the government care?

They didn't want to run the risk of them joining the resistance. Probably because the X-Men's main riff has been being outlaws. They were actually worried that the mutants would bolster the rebel's numbers.


5k posts, biatches!!!!!!!!

[TheCorpulent1]

Right, but so long as they're not showing signs of actively aiding the rebels, the government seems cool with letting them stay neutral.

[BrianWilly]

According to Civil War: X-Men, that might change very, very soon.

Bishop has become a registered combatant working with Iron Man, and has differing ideologies than the rest of the X-Men as to how to deal with the 198 and the O*N*E. And by "differing ideologies," I mean that he basically threw a temper tantrum in Scott's face about how he is lost without the Professor telling him what to do all the time.

Cyclops and the three other original X-Men have left the mansion, becoming fugitives, in order to look for the 198 who have escaped, and is worried that if they cross paths with Bishop and the O*N*E, they're going to have to fight against the rest of the registered heroes as well.

[LouFerignoDemon]

They didn't want to run the risk of them joining the resistance. Probably because the X-Men's main riff has been being outlaws. They were actually worried that the mutants would bolster the rebel's numbers.


5k posts, biatches!!!!!!!!


Congrats! :mad:

[Kevin]

You actually COMPARED gay rights to hero rights, so that's where my response came from. As for the mutants? They don't have to be registered. They're staying out of the whole registration bit, since they're not asking permission to go out and bust crime and super crime, and dealing only in mutant related matters.


As for being with your friends and such? Let's say a car pulled up along side you guys, and sure you guys got beat up pretty good. That's FAR different than you going out and looking for trouble that usually end up in explosions and cars being thrown, with passengers inside, into store shop windows and such. Most hate crimes aren't NEARLY as dangerous as someone with explosive powers trying to stop another with explosive powers.


See, your friends go WITH you knowing this might happen. Going out and stopping a supervillan in a huge fight puts people who didn't even want to BE there in severe danger. Most super villans, on the basic street level, just want to knock up some store and make out with the cash, and the injuries are usually just one bruised person who was being used as a hostage. Enter a hero into that equation, and it turns into a fight.

But that still doesn't change the fact that you HAVE to follow human laws, where you seem to feel that superhumans should be above that. That they're somehow in no need of having a check or control. If that's the case, they should just trust EVERYBODY, and let the public take care of itself and abolish all law enforcement altogether. i also already said that i dont feel superhumans should be above the law. one part of me says it's not right to get forced to join something you don't believe in, while the other part of me thinks the heroes that don't register should quit. i came into reading civil war being anti SHRA and still am. i believe what they're are doing is right but how they handled it is wrong. if SHIELD knows everyone's id already, why the hell do they need to register? for the public? SHIELD doesn't have to pay for what the unregistered heroes did, but they could certainly charge them for whatever damages they've caused if they know their civilian id's. my heads hurts at the moment, so ima stop thinking for a while

[LouFerignoDemon]

i also already said that i dont feel superhumans should be above the law. one part of me says it's not right to get forced to join something you don't believe in, while the other part of me thinks the heroes that don't register should quit. i came into reading civil war being anti SHRA and still am. i believe what they're are doing is right but how they handled it is wrong. if SHIELD knows everyone's id already, why the hell do they need to register? for the public? SHIELD doesn't have to pay for what the unregistered heroes did, but they could certainly charge them for whatever damages they've caused if they know their civilian id's. my heads hurts at the moment, so ima stop thinking for a while


I agree that hero's that cause damage should be charged. All of them couldn't function as hero's for very long, of course, but that would be a support for Registration. I also believe the same thing for caught supervillans, needing to repay for damages.

But it IS for the public as I've repeatedly said. There's no way to control hero's, and that means there's very little in the way of trusting them. And if the public doesn't want hero's, the government should work accordingly.

[BrianWilly]

If the public looks at the mistakes of a minority of heroes and decides that they apply to the majority, then the public is stupid and ungrateful.

How many times has the world been saved by now because of men and women who risk their lives without compensation of any sort? Who are the hypocrites who will praise a superhero one day when he or she drags their asses out of a burning building and then condemn them out of mistaken paranoia the next day? One day they're called icons, American heroes, great men and women...and the next day they are referred to as unpatriotic terrorists who let their egos run wild.

I find that incredibly low, for the Marvel universe's public to turn on these people like that.

[Darthphere]

If the public looks at the mistakes of a minority of heroes and decides that they apply to the majority, then the public is stupid and ungrateful.

How many times has the world been saved by now because of men and women who risk their lives without compensation of any sort? Who are the hypocrites who will praise a superhero one day when he or she drags their asses out of a burning building and then condemn them out of mistaken paranoia the next day? One day they're called icons, American heroes, great men and women...and the next day they are referred to as unpatriotic terrorists who let their egos run wild.

I find that incredibly low, for the Marvel universe's public to turn on these people like that.


I concur.

[Shadowknight]

The two major problems for me, with the execution of the story (ignoring the whole whether it's makes sense or not for registration):

1. The Stamford Incident - the whole thing for Civil War is based on an incident with Nitro, Mr. Pull My Finger. He could fight anyone anywhere, even experienced heroes, and still have the same result of massive property damage and deaths. If it was a more normal super-fight, people getting smashed through buildings, getting hit by collateral damage, etc. (Think a battle turning into a very small scale version of Miracleman #15) I would have an easier time buying the severe reaction of the public. I just think Millar choose a poor idea to start the story as opposed to a more-destructive everyday battle that would make the point about training vs. an adversary that could do the same damage with or without fighting experienced heroes.

2. The whole "Days of Future Past" treatment. We're literally seeing images that have other heroes and SHIELD acting like the Gestapo. Going out of their way to arrest heroes for being good samaritans as opposed to, say SUPERVILLIANS. The Supervillians they've HAVE been capturing are being drafted into the Masters of E- I mean, Thunderbolts under the benign control of Baron Zemo, who is an upstanding citizen who's never even had a parking ticket, much less took over half the world (as opposed to the whole world) so he could get his jollies conquering the other half, instead of mind-controlling all of it at once for a bloodless coup. I mean, could you see this man breaking into a highly guarded super-hero headquarters and trying to kill and maim high-profile superheroes like Captain America and Hercules? No, he's a great guy that deserves all of the trust and power Henry Gyric (an upstanding government operative with no history of disliking superhumans) can give them. I'm also absolutely sure that their method of controlling the villians via teleporting them directly to a cell, people who have absolutely no history of violently trying to kill or injure superheroes they're being drafted to capture, have no way of shutting down said control thanks to highly intelligent members of their "team" such as Doctor Octopus. We can completely trust them, and that they really do want to reform!

Anywho, it would make more sense for it to be a more passive "hunt" for superheroes, busting them as they stop crime. (Did they even give heroes more than one day to register? I'm not clear on that. There should be a month or so to give them time to think about it, or take time from say, their personal lives that they have to work around when they choose to superhero). This should be more of a job for "anti-supervillian" cops like code blue, not Stormtroopers from Frau Hill. I can understand it if a particular hero keeps getting away from the cops, or requires more firepower/technology/other heroes to capture them, but the "Days of Future Past minus the Sentinels" is taking it too far. Would it be a less interesting book if it was more low-key in the way they approach the issue? Yes. But it would be more realistic and reasonable than going Nazi on them.

ETA: If I was a taxpayer in the MU, I'd be pissed at the very least at the waste of tax-dollars. Building a prison just for superheroes? When there allready are ones like the Vault (or Raft, I can't remember if the Vault was destroyed or not), and the Big House/Ant Farm designed specifically for holding super-powered people? I mean, with deputizing all those villians, the existing prisons should be empty.