The Official Detective Comics Thread

[The Batman]

I'm quite sad at how much HoH gets ripped because it's a more standard superhero affair and RIP is praised for being a "new change in Batman" when, when it came down to it, RIP really didn't do anything innovative change wise at all, and atleast HoH didn't have Batman as an unbeatable Godbeing. I gotta agree too that his run is fast approaching a definitive aspect of Batman mythos.

I think the part I'm saddest about is that it seems Dini was really going somewhere subtly in his one shots. Despite their nature some small arcs were building up to a no doubt planned climax involving the Riddler possibly rediscovering Batman's identity and his foes which were becoming legit turning back to crime. Now since all Morrison's nonsense (which seems to be controlling DC right now, no doubt they'll let him make Damian be Batman of the future soon) we might not get to see this happen.

Anyways, apart from those two issues is Dini doing anything else? I'll be very saddened if he ends his run here.

I'm quite sad at how all most fanboys can do is praise dini while bashing morrison at the same time...it only highlights the perception that dini's merely writing the secondary book. Never do you see consisitent mentions of dini in the R.I.P threads. And the truth is, dini's run is as overrated by comic fans who need things spelled out for them like a child as morrisons run is by intellectual snobs. They're pretty much on the same level but for different reasons: Decent at best stories that will eventually become footnotes.

[Majic Walrus]

I'm quite sad at how all most fanboys can do is praise dini while bashing morrison at the same time...it only highlights the perception that dini's merely writing the secondary book. Never do you see consisitent mentions of dini in the R.I.P threads. And the truth is, dini's run is as overrated by comic fans who need things spelled out for them like a child as morrisons run is by intellectual snobs. They're pretty much on the same level but for different reasons: Decent at best stories that will eventually become footnotes.

Seriously though if you read RIP and Detective in the same day which one do you think is better? Detective by far.

Morrison is good at doing long winded, thick, twisting plots that are actually very good if it weren't for the fact that months and months later you get a weak payoff only to realize that you've got to read more to figure it out.

It's like reading The Bleak House and then finding out that there was a hidden "Part 2" somewhere out there.

Dini on the other hand is good at writing fun stories that tap into the characters more than anything else. They might not tell as intricate a plot because they spend more time looking into the insides of a character and relationships. You read a short story with a medium sized payout and then you're done.

In this day and age I think more people are looking for "Grass roots" stories like Dini's and not looking for complex masterpieces like Morrison's work.

[CaptainClown]

I like Dini's run simply because it didn't try to be something its not. The whole time I was reading Morrison's run it felt like Michael Bay trying to make a film out of Transformers. It came off as pretentious. Actually I'll correct that and compare Morrison to M. Night Shamalyan. He had a few good hits but has been going down hill. The whole R.I.P. arc felt like a simple comic book concept that he tried to write off as something deep. Dini's run felt like a comic book concept which he stuck with and thats why I liked it. It wasn't a TDKR or Sandman but it was an enjoyable little read.

[The Batman]

Seriously though if you read RIP and Detective in the same day which one do you think is better? Detective by far.

Morrison is good at doing long winded, thick, twisting plots that are actually very good if it weren't for the fact that months and months later you get a weak payoff only to realize that you've got to read more to figure it out.

It's like reading The Bleak House and then finding out that there was a hidden "Part 2" somewhere out there.

Dini on the other hand is good at writing fun stories that tap into the characters more than anything else. They might not tell as intricate a plot because they spend more time looking into the insides of a character and relationships. You read a short story with a medium sized payout and then you're done.

In this day and age I think more people are looking for "Grass roots" stories like Dini's and not looking for complex masterpieces like Morrison's work.


How bout you change the bolded part to "I"? And again, Detective's conservative comics fare may be better for YOU, but dont try to imply that dini's style is better for everyone. Morrisons batman, whether you like it or not, outsells tec and has outsold tec even before R.I.P.

Again, I find it funny that people cant help but tear down morrison in order to build up dini. That says something about simply placing faith in dini's work alone...

[Two-Face=Badass]

The "You just have to have it spelled out for you because you don't understand it" is a terrible argument. RIP is a story that would be ripped apart by any writing workshop. Heck, even if I could get past the plotholes and Batgod anticlimax I'd still fint it inferior to Dini not because I find Dini to be the greatest writer ever, cause let's face it, he has had some stinkers, but that unlike Morrison he understands Batman. His Batman fights the darkness while Morrisons admits to like it. Dini's calls in help from allies while Morrison's "relies on his friends to help him" by letting Nightwing get damn near lobotomised. And Dini explores the character and furthers the relationships instead of "First arc: Batman gets a son! Second arc: Ra's comes back (not ihs fault i'll admit though) Third Arc: Cliche supervillain entrance! Fourth Arc: Bring on Dead Batman!"

Okay, so that is heavily overdramatic. But overall as much as people say Morrison is respecting the mythos I only see disregard. He disregards current storytelling and established continuity by making his own, he pulls out random Silver Age stories most of which are the garbage ones (there is a difference between fun Silver Age and utter trash) and then he goes ahead and single handedly plans the demise of the bat so every writer must follow, turns Talia into the dumbest villainess ever, and makes a villain the Devil which seems to be a "deep" move by many.

I'll admit to still enjoying Morrisons run, but overall I see more harm in the characters than good. Dini atleast gave an awesome replacement Ventriloquist, turned Hush into a *shock* good villain, finally delivered a good Mad hatter story, and moved the Bruce/Selina relationship forward. And he did it without having to give the biggest shock in 70 years.

[The Batman]

And what you just typed does not disprove my point whatsoever....in fact, it only serves to highlight it...once again, you tear one overrated writer to shreds because of your own biases to praise another (Dini moved the selina/bruce relationship forward?Hahahahhahahahhahah)

I wonder if people can review an issue of tec without complaining about morrison along the way.

[AndrewGilkison]

And what you just typed does not disprove my point whatsoever....in fact, it only serves to highlight it...once again, you tear one overrated writer to shreds because of your own biases to praise another (Dini moved the selina/bruce relationship forward?Hahahahhahahahhahah)

I wonder if people can review an issue of tec without complaining about morrison along the way.

Just a shot in the dark here, but maybe these guys just think Dini's stories are better than Morrison's, and don't share your opinion that they are both "equally overrated" or that just because one book sells more that it's automatically better.

[The Batman]

1. I mentioned sales only because one person said that more people are looking for dini's run when its not true.

2. Prefer Dini...I'm commenting on the fact that people apparently need Morrison's run to justify Dini's...or have you not been reading my posts? I know the answer to that is "not really". You dont see people bashing Geoff johns' run on Action to justify their liking of James Robinson's Superman, so why is the same thing going on here? It's really irritating to come to this thread and half the posts are merely about bashing morrison rather than actually talking about dini

[Two-Face=Badass]

And what you just typed does not disprove my point whatsoever....in fact, it only serves to highlight it...once again, you tear one overrated writer to shreds because of your own biases to praise another (Dini moved the selina/bruce relationship forward?Hahahahhahahahhahah)

I wonder if people can review an issue of tec without complaining about morrison along the way.
Ah, I see your complaint now. You're annoyed about the constant Morrison bickering in this thread. My apologies, I thought you were arguing the writer's dynamics. Anyway, I must take fair blame for complaining about Morrison/RIP/Last Rites, I probably have to work on that. But I will say it is almost impossible not to in some cases, given that the RIP thread follows the events of the main book while this one leaves us having to follow it around in other titles. Given that Morrison's plan seems to be controlling right now it's hard not to complain about how detective is forced to bend to his will.

But yeah, anyway, while I disagree (I still say Dini on Batbooks is not overrated, and that he does move things forward) but I see that a lot of complaining can be aggravating. Just don't expect all of it to go though.

[Lord Valumart]

i gotta say that i only really got into batman comics due to the fact that dini was writing detective, cause i loved his work TAS.

heart of hush is probably the best story i've read all year and if i'm completely honest RIP felt like it was trying to slam continuity into a wall while screaming "DO IT!! DO IT NOW!!!". within a few pages of reading RIP i discovered that batman hadben dead for about 6 minutes like 4 issues ago and i was like "...ball to this..." cause i hadn't been reading batman i felt horribly left out and lost.

and now everything is changing due to RIP i feeli have to read it so one day i'll slowly get through the damn thing...

[Majic Walrus]

How bout you change the bolded part to "I"? And again, Detective's conservative comics fare may be better for YOU, but dont try to imply that dini's style is better for everyone. Morrisons batman, whether you like it or not, outsells tec and has outsold tec even before R.I.P.

Again, I find it funny that people cant help but tear down morrison in order to build up dini. That says something about simply placing faith in dini's work alone...

I meant people in general, not necessarily you. You as in neither one of us but someone totally different who happens to like Dini's work. We both know who we like. ;)

Also I never sought to "tear down" Morrison in that post. In fact I compared him to Charles Dickens and called his work a "complex masterpiece". I'm just saying that stuff isn't what everyone wants to read.

It doesn't make Dini any better that Morrison writes what he does, it just makes him seem better. ;)

[K.B.]

I like both writers but I fee lthat Dini is more successful.

Though they are both different types of storytellers (Morrison more long and twisted with LOTS of details while Dini is short and sweet) I do feel that Dini has the edge here and here is why:

The artwork.

Morrisons writing has so many details put into it that he needs artists of a certain calibre to work with so that his ideas are not lost in translation and Tony Daniel simply is not a good match for Grant at all. The problems with R.I.P. are in the art.

Take a look at the books with Kubert and Williams and there is so much being picked up on between writer and artist and your really getting a sense of where Grant is going and the groundwork he is laying out while when Daniels came on board, we lost out o nso many thigns that its become a confused mess with half the things happening "off page" when they should be happening on page where we can see.

With Dini, he has had solid artists the whole way and they have not had any problems translating scripts to art. Sure there arent as many "background" or "little" details as in Grants work, but still.

[BubbaGump]

So what did people think about the Denny O Neil issues? I didn't buy them, and it looks a couple of people were unhappy with it.

[Drz]

So what did people think about the Denny O Neil issues? I didn't buy them, and it looks a couple of people were unhappy with it.

Mediocore, i liked the new artist but the story itself wasn't anything spectacular, it was about Nightwing and:
him doing **** ups because of stress due to Bruce's disappearance, theres a guy pretenting to be a Two-face and Nightwing is trying to catch him and so on, its basicly a weak psychological story of Nightwing preparing himself.

EDIT: Is the paul dini detective comics hardcover out yet? the one where the Dustin artist is.

[squeekness]

I thought it was kinda meh, like reading a fanfic. Not as good as that last Hush arc by far.

[BubbaGump]

Mediocore, i liked the new artist but the story itself wasn't anything spectacular, it was about Nightwing and:
him doing **** ups because of stress due to Bruce's disappearance, theres a guy pretenting to be a Two-face and Nightwing is trying to catch him and so on, its basicly a weak psychological story of Nightwing preparing himself.

EDIT: Is the paul dini detective comics hardcover out yet? the one where the Dustin artist is.

Thanks. It doesn't sound to hot though.

And yeah, the Detective hardcover is out. I saw it at the bookstore and it looks good. Too bad I already have the single issues, since the cover's really nice.

[Dark Victory]

EDIT: Is the paul dini detective comics hardcover out yet? the one where the Dustin artist is.

Private Casebook was released a couple weeks ago in hardcover. HoH will probably be released around March.

[Drz]

Thank you gentlemen. :)

[margon]

I enjoyed HoH, didn't grab the singles but I'll get the tpb. Some of the actions scenes went on too long and seemed a little boring and/or obligatory, felt like I was 9 watching TAS again. Marvelous work on all the characters, that's obviously his ace in the hand. Also goddamn he tied together Hush well, from the plastic surgery to the zombie helpers and Freeze as a partner, his mother, Peyton, Aristotle, busting a first aid kit and putting bandages on his face in a middle of a fight ha ha. That's very commendable.

I have to say I hope he continues with one shots again, HoH kinda dragged out a little. Also more Harley and Ivy

I hope Morrisons overhaul didn't throw Dini's series plans for a loop too much and he can do something interesting with the new status quo. Actually I really like the fact that Dini will be on board for bringing in the new batman world, he'll be a good guiding hand on his corner of the franchise and we can see his take on all the new changes hopefully.

I have a feeling he's gonna veer more towards the Robins and batfamily in 2009, seems logical while Morrison handles whoever is the new Batman.


I'm quite sad at how all most fanboys can do is praise dini while bashing morrison at the same time...it only highlights the perception that dini's merely writing the secondary book. Never do you see consisitent mentions of dini in the R.I.P threads. And the truth is, dini's run is as overrated by comic fans who need things spelled out for them like a child as morrisons run is by intellectual snobs. They're pretty much on the same level but for different reasons: Decent at best stories that will eventually become footnotes.

what I don't think either run will end up as a footnote, no way. I have to ask you then, if you had to pick three or four outstanding runs from this decade, what would they be? Hush of course will make the list because it was big and silly and Jim Lee and got alot of new readers, whether or not we agree on its status as a great book ( I don't think so) it was definitely a standout from the 00's. Under The Hood was another notable milestone event but again of debatable status in quality. Then what we've got all the War Crimes mess, Face-to Face, Fugitive, bleh bleh bleh.

If Morrison and Dini are footnotes what will be the best from the 00's?

[MaskedManJRK]

Seriously though if you read RIP and Detective in the same day which one do you think is better? Detective by far.

...Nah. Actually, I'd say both are tied.

Batman is where I get my crazy, badass superhero stories and Det. is where I get my grounded, noir-ish mystery stories. They're both valid interpetations of the character and I enjoy both equally.

Hell--isn't it the point to have all these multiple titles for one character? To do different stories to get as many readers as possible?

[K.B.]

So what did people think about the Denny O Neil issues? I didn't buy them, and it looks a couple of people were unhappy with it.


Everything about these 2 issues was bad. You wouldnt know it was Denny writting and the art was horrible.

Even under stress and that I dont think Dick would make half the mistakes he made in these 2 issues because they were just honestly stupid. Gets his bike stolen? Ummm okay?

[The Batman]

...Nah. Actually, I'd say both are tied.

Batman is where I get my crazy, badass superhero stories and Det. is where I get my grounded, noir-ish mystery stories. They're both valid interpetations of the character and I enjoy both equally.

Hell--isn't it the point to have all these multiple titles for one character? To do different stories to get as many readers as possible?

and yet most of this thread is still being used to ***** about morrison instead of actually being on topic ...arent fanboys amazing?

[Drz]

Everything about these 2 issues was bad. You wouldnt know it was Denny writting and the art was horrible.

Even under stress and that I dont think Dick would make half the mistakes he made in these 2 issues because they were just honestly stupid. Gets his bike stolen? Ummm okay?

How can you say the art was horrible? >_> And we can't truly know how much under stress Nightwing was, i mean he lost his "mentor" and "father" person, thats deep man. :/

[K.B.]

Because there were problems a plenty with the anatomy and persepective. A page or a panel here or there didnt look to terrible but the odd page or panel does not a good artist make.

yes he lost his father figure and I think thati dea has lots of potential for a good story but jeeze was this not it. Gordon and Bullock coming off as if they have never even heard of Nightwing let alone ever saw him was stupid. That HAS to be some sort of continuity glitch. And like I said, the mistakes Dick made were just lame. Your honestly telling me that a man who has trained with Bruce since he was what? 10, and even with losing his father figure, would make half the mistakes he made? I dont buy it. They were just to "amature" if you know what I mean.

[CrimsonMist]

Both issues just felt like a pseudo-intellectual rehashing of all the themes under the "Nightwing" title and felt unnecessary. The whole "My father figure is gone!/how do i make it without him?/TWO-FACE!!!!" stuff was explored to great effect already in Nightwing's own title.

Really wasn't worth the money at all. It was disappointing too, because i've enjoyed all the tie-ins to RIP than RIP itself. And this was just boring.

[BubbaGump]

and yet most of this thread is still being used to ***** about morrison instead of actually being on topic ...arent fanboys amazing?

And yet your posts in this thread are pretty much *****ing about it instead of actually contributing anything useful to the topic.

Anyway, for those unhappy with the Denny O'Neil issues, Dini and Nguyen come back Jan 7, then Neil Gaiman and Kubert in 853. That's as far as DC's solicits go.

[The Batman]

And yet your posts in this thread are pretty much *****ing about it instead of actually contributing anything useful to the topic.

.

Lol...this coming from the guy who took a potshot at morrison in a thread that had absolutely nothing to do with him...why contribute when guys like you will just continuing *****ing about morrison anyway? I'd love to actually, i dunno, discuss dini's tec in the thread thats designated for it

[The Batman]

Because there were problems a plenty with the anatomy and persepective. A page or a panel here or there didnt look to terrible but the odd page or panel does not a good artist make.

yes he lost his father figure and I think thati dea has lots of potential for a good story but jeeze was this not it. Gordon and Bullock coming off as if they have never even heard of Nightwing let alone ever saw him was stupid. That HAS to be some sort of continuity glitch. And like I said, the mistakes Dick made were just lame. Your honestly telling me that a man who has trained with Bruce since he was what? 10, and even with losing his father figure, would make half the mistakes he made? I dont buy it. They were just to "amature" if you know what I mean.

honestly, o neil hasnt written anything good in years....he was also a disappointment as bat editor, so all these complaints about his two issues arent surprising, imo

[Cain]

honestly, o neil hasnt written anything good in years....he was also a disappointment as bat editor, so all these complaints about his two issues arent surprising, imo

Ummm I don't know about dissapointment as bat editor. Yeah he greenlit some crap towards the end of his tenure but we still got a lot of great Batman stuff under his watch. The awesomeness of the silent issue from The Many Deaths of the Batman arc for example are things that probably wouldn't have flown past editorial if not for O'Neill.

For allowing stories like Tulpa, The Mud Pack, Master of Fear and Anarky and many other Grant/Breyfogle classics see the light of day I give the man his due. That being said the only former Batman editor that should be allowed to write any Bat family title anymore is Peter Tomasi and Peter Tomasi alone. O'Neill proved his out of his league when it comes to writing now a days he should just be happy with his legacy and leave it at that.

[The Batman]

Ummm I don't know about dissapointment as bat editor. Yeah he greenlit some crap towards the end of his tenure but we still got a lot of great Batman stuff under his watch. The awesomeness of the silent issue from The Many Deaths of the Batman arc for example are things that probably wouldn't have flown past editorial if not for O'Neill.

For allowing stories like Tulpa, The Mud Pack, Master of Fear and Anarky and many other Grant/Breyfogle classics see the light of day I give the man his due. That being said the only former Batman editor that should be allowed to write any Bat family title anymore is Peter Tomasi and Peter Tomasi alone. O'Neill proved his out of his league when it comes to writing now a days he should just be happy with his legacy and leave it at that.

Sure, we got some great stuff, but the batbooks got bogged down with crossover after crossover and useless zero hour changes. Tomasi is ok...not memorable

[Drz]

Did anyone here read the newest comic yet? Jesus christ it was made of pure win. I loved the ending and i love how Hush is becoming so badass.

[sclabguy]

just read it... Paul Dini has made Hush incredible

[rnewbz]

spoilers please lol

[Drz]

spoilers please lol

Hush decides to end his life after he failed, he goes to the bridge where his father had died due to his engineering, he looks down the lake and thruout his insanity sees his parents laughing and mocking him, he jumps.

He finds out that he didn't die and 2 sailers had rescued him and recognize him as Bruce Wayne, Hush acts and gets 60 dollar loan from them and promises that Lucious Fox will reward him. The whole issue is an awesome story of how Hush is exploiting Bruce Wayne personality and even getting money out of his company thru minor company's that Wayne indrusty owns.

At the end of the issue while hes in Australia or somewhere, south america maybe i can't remember exactly now he gets attacked by a terrorist group led by... yep you guessed it, Catwoman. >:3 In 2 weeks we get to know what she has in store for him.

[CConn]

I found his Hush arc to be very forgettable.

[The Batman]

I found his Hush arc to be very forgettable.

GASP.....how dare you bash the great and powerful dini!??!?!

Honestly, I agree...it was a nice cleanup of hush's origin...and thats about it. Nothin' groundbreaking...and the whole batman/catwoman "you're the love of my life" story felt contrived

[CConn]

Oh, Hush's origin was done...great, I'd say. But everything else...gah. Totally uninventive, uninteresting, and entirely forgettable. If only that really good origin and characterization of the character could have been transplanted into a better story.

[CaptainClown]

Hush needs an insanely better origin. I wish he didn't feel like shoved in Wayne's history randomly.

[squeekness]

I thought this ish was wonderful. I'll just forget the last one ever happened. :p

[Cain]

I prefer Heart of Hush to Loeb/Lee's Hush :wow:

I never liked Hush till Dini made him readable.

I liked the parts in jamaica and australia best in this issue Dini gives Hush a good voice.

[The Joker]

I thoroughly enjoyed the latest issue. Dini definitely writes Hush alot better than Loeb.

Fantastic cliffhanger, too.

[Drz]

I wonder what Catwoman will do to Hush, i'd gues sa good scar or so to his face.

[MaskedManJRK]

Oh, Hush's origin was done...great, I'd say. But everything else...gah. Totally uninventive, uninteresting, and entirely forgettable. If only that really good origin and characterization of the character could have been transplanted into a better story.

Dude--Hush nearly got killed by the Dinosaur and a Whirly-Bat. A WHIRLY BAT. That alone would make even the s**tiest arc at least somewhat readable.

[margon]

the new issue was better than the early issues of HoH. I'm surprised that I actually want to keep reading about Hush now

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Thank god for Paul Dini... He's perhaps the only writer I feel comfortable with tackling batman at the moment. Especially how fragile his comics appear to be at the moment.

[CrimsonMist]

mega bump

Detective Comics #854 was AWESOME! J.H. Williams III's layouts were incredible and Greg Rucka's writing was up to par, as always. The Question back-up, also by Rucka and drawn by Cully Hamner(who kind of reminds of Eduardo Risso, but not as good) was pretty good. For 4 dollars, you get a 24 page Batwoman story and an 8 page Question story, both of great quality. Both are seem to be well paced, aren't quick reads(which may make the issue feel like a waste of money) and seem to be building up solidly.

Batwoman - Thirteen crime coven in Gotham are waiting for their new leader to arrive. Batwoman wants her name and when she's showing up and where she'll be arriving. This is gonna be a weird, yet fun story. I expect Batman MIGHT show up, as he offers assistance if this thing gets out of hand. We'll see.

The Question - The Question, Rene Montoya, investigates an illegal immigrant's claim that his sister was kidnapped by the same man who smuggled him into the country. What Rene finds leads to more than just kidnapping. Seems like a story we've all seen plenty of times, but i always like them. Should be good. Can anyone tell me when Rene became The Question? I believe it's 54, but i'm not sure. Is it worth picking up?

Overall, this issue was solid. Worth the 4 bucks for 2 stories. Out of all the Bat-titles that have come out, this might be the only one i stick with. I loved it.

[sclabguy]

the art was good but im not really sure wut was going on... maybe it's my lack of knowledge on Katy Kane. But i'll give it a shot

[Drz]

Delicious art is extremely delicious.

[Majic Walrus]

This is the best book with "Bat" in the title I've read in a long long time.

[Dirt Like Me]

the art was good but im not really sure wut was going on... maybe it's my lack of knowledge on Katy Kane. But i'll give it a shot

That's pretty much how I felt, too. I don't know anything about the Batwoman character and was a little bit reluctant to buy this issue--especially with the $4 price tag.

But, that being said, this issue was great. The art was awesome--especially some of page layouts, which don't look like anything else I've seen (except Williams' work on 'The Island of Mr. Mahew' story in Batman). And there were enough bits and pieces of character scattered throughout the story to make Katie Kane seem like somebody I want to learn more about. I liked her 'Alfred', too--that could be an interesting dynamic.

I wasn't really into The Question backup, though. (Even though I know more about Montoya than Kane).

My wallet won't let me buy every Bat-title every month, so I have do decide which ones I'm going forward with. This issue of Detective just made my decision a little more difficult.

[The Joker]

Really enjoyed the latest issue. Had no idea what was going on with Kathy Kane, but the references to her troubled past, and these new religious villains was very intriguing.

[Nepenthes]

I have a strong feeling that when this is done it's gonna stand among the classic "batman" trades. and we've only seen one issue.

[Majic Walrus]

Really enjoyed the latest issue. Had no idea what was going on with Kathy Kane, but the references to her troubled past, and these new religious villains was very intriguing.

You should check out The Question: The Five Books of Blood (also by Rucka :up:) it gives more insight into the religious villains and it's very cool too.

I have a strong feeling that when this is done it's gonna stand among the classic "batman" trades. and we've only seen one issue.

I totally agree. This has every potential to be one of my favorite "Batman" stories.

[SHADOWBAT69]

I finally picked up my issue. I have to say I didnt care for it. I think Ill keep passing on 'tec until Batman becomes the main focus again.

[K.B.]

I agree this is one of the best Bat books out there and I hope it sales show DC how stupid they were to not release this years ago and why a title shouldn't be tossed around and avoided just cuz a character is gay.

[Figs]

I have a strong feeling that when this is done it's gonna stand among the classic "batman" trades. and we've only seen one issue.


Is there a subtitle to this run of Detective comics? Or is it all just under Detective Comics #....?

[Cain]

JH Williams III effing rules man this is the best artwork on a Bat book IMO since his work on Morrison's International Club of Heroes arc. But the story wasn't too engaging to me because well we don't know her very well yet. Yeah she had that crime bible mini series but I skipped that so in that sense I didn't even really find the villains too involving just yet. Would be great to get a Bruno Manheim appearance in this arc though. I look forward to seeing where it goes but overall I enjoyed The Question back up even more.

[GlasgowBat]

not a bad issue, but i don't really understand this "among the all-time greats" guff is coming from...........

in such a thin issue, what possibly indicated this? other than the fact that it's rucka, i'm not seing a reason to be so excited. 4th best of this series of "1st" issues of the new batman era.

[Alfreds Butler]

I am Alfreds butler! And that b*****d steals all the glory, I FEED master Bruce while Alfred serves and takes all the credit while I don't even get a appearance. It has gone on to long and now I will write Alfred R.I.P I will be the new butler for this new era u shall all see.

[K.B.]

Jeeze why does everyone want the whole story given to them in the first issue?

[boywondernerdDC]

I really liked this issue a ton. I am excited for everything to come in the series. The minor cliffhanger ending has me anxious for the next issue. And as much as I love the Batman himself, it is great to see some of Batwoman and some other characters. (Loved The Question backup too)

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I really enjoyed the issue... amazing art :wow:

I don't know alot about Batwoman but I want to learn, which means Rucka did his job with the first issue.


Plus... that wasn't the slightly modified Dick Grayson Batman costume... it was Bruce Wayne's...

Did J.H Williams III just not get the memo?

[K.B.]

Plus... that wasn't the slightly modified Dick Grayson Batman costume... it was Bruce Wayne's...

Did J.H Williams III just not get the memo?

No this book was done years ago but DC let it sit on a shelf because they were afraid to publish a book where the lead is gay.

[Nepenthes]

DC let it sit on a shelf because they were afraid to publish a book where the lead is gay.

this makes no sense at all. are you making this up?


Plus... that wasn't the slightly modified Dick Grayson Batman costume... it was Bruce Wayne's..

Williams has been working on this book for "more than two years" now. It could have easily been written before ***** takeover was planned.

[K.B.]

this makes no sense at all. are you making this up?

Sadly, no. Back shortly after she was introduced in 52 it was announced that Rucka and Williams would do a Batwoman solo book (12 issues I believe). After it was done DC went all wishy washy on it giving the typical and lame answers of "it's not time for it" "do fans even want it" yadda yadda....while DC will deny it was because the main character is gay, I think its pretty evident friom the behind the scenes stories.

[boywondernerdDC]

That is pathetic that they felt they had to do that. I mean they're comics and the readership is all comic nerds...we accept everyone, except jocks and even some of them are alright

[ultrasuperduckman]

Okay so I just bought it. I really, really liked it. Few questions though.

First off. Maybe I'm just a total idiot ( Once again, no jokes) but why in the scenes with her girlfriend did she have short hair, then when she put on the costume she had her long hair again? Am I missing something here. I know Batman said to do something about it....

Which leads me to my next question. If this book is a few years old and it's being released now. Is it the story set two years ago? Or are they going to just "bump" it up to recent times?

[CrimsonMist]

Okay so I just bought it. I really, really liked it. Few questions though.

First off. Maybe I'm just a total idiot ( Once again, no jokes) but why in the scenes with her girlfriend did she have short hair, then when she put on the costume she had her long hair again? Am I missing something here. I know Batman said to do something about it....


The long hair is part of her cowl. An attached wig, if you will.

[ultrasuperduckman]

Right thank you Mr. Mist. That's what I was thinking.

[K.B.]

I pray to god that DC just lets it be and doesnt try to shoe horn current continuity into it.

[Nepenthes]

Sadly, no. Back shortly after she was introduced in 52 it was announced that Rucka and Williams would do a Batwoman solo book (12 issues I believe). After it was done DC went all wishy washy on it giving the typical and lame answers of "it's not time for it" "do fans even want it" yadda yadda....while DC will deny it was because the main character is gay, I think its pretty evident friom the behind the scenes stories.

so yeah, you're making it up

there could be any number of reasons why the held off releasing it. I can think of three reasons that actually make sense, compared to yours which is devoid

a) why would DC create a gay character if they weren't gonna be prepared to release material about her?
b) they released it just now, showing that clearly, they're not afraid of it

Other reasons for the delay
a) Williams works very slowly, this is 12 issues and he's already been working on it for two years
b) Countdown/52 etc had to finish as it takes place before
c) A "new era" and title shake-up is a good opportunity to slot in into a main book, increasing the chances it will be in the spotlight. The fact they've given her Detective Comics shows they're obviously very proud

[Majic Walrus]

so yeah, you're making it up

there could be any number of reasons why the held off releasing it. I can think of three reasons that actually make sense, compared to yours which is devoid

a) why would DC create a gay character if they weren't gonna be prepared to release material about her?
b) they released it just now, showing that clearly, they're not afraid of it

Other reasons for the delay
a) Williams works very slowly, this is 12 issues and he's already been working on it for two years
b) Countdown/52 etc had to finish as it takes place before
c) A "new era" and title shake-up is a good opportunity to slot in into a main book, increasing the chances it will be in the spotlight. The fact they've given her Detective Comics shows they're obviously very proud


:up:

This is probably right. This is the perfect time for Batwoman because Batman (Bruce Wayne) is dead, Dick has been limited to B&R and Batman so there's a long running book that needs a hero.

If Batwoman came out during RIP or Final Crisis it would've failed hard.

[K.B.]

Actually I'm not making it up at all.

Here's a good article about it from 2007 which talks about it and also chats with original writer Devin Grayson.

http://www.afterellen.com/blwe/08-17-2007?page=0%2C3

Most will be to lazy to click the link so here is a little quote from her:

“That reversal really surprised and disappointed me,” Grayson admitted. “I won't pretend not to be resentful of how badly DC treated me in that exchange, but the majority of my concern and sympathy goes out to the character, who was basically thrown away by a company which had a lot of support to make her successful and unique. My experiences up to that point had been much more positive, although admittedly less ambitious, and it was really sad and discouraging to see the ball so badly dropped.”

And lets not forget the handy dandy timeline:

September 26, 2005 - The earliest reference to a rumored Batwoman book that I can find without spending hours searching comes from Rich Jonhston’s Lying In The Gutters. Under the header “Back to the Bat (http://tinyurl.com/2fpcaf)”, it simply read: “After “Infinite Crisis,” look for a new “Mystery In Space” series and a new Batwoman series. Should provide lots of wiggle room.”


September – October 2005 – This is what I think is a probable date for the start of project development. Devyn Grayson mentions that she learned her Batwoman project is scuttled by reading a newspaper article. See the entry for July 19th, 2007.



The Sunday New York Times piece (May 27th, 2006) mentions that Batwoman will appear for the first time in 52. The following day’s Newsarama interview with Dan Didio may be the real source. See the entry for May 28th, 2006. The initial rumor reports may help to substantiate this probable time frame. A Google search contains references in links to USA Today also running an article. Searching the website’s online archives doesn’t yield any useful information.


October 23, 2005 – First rumor report in the old All The Rage column (http://tinyurl.com/2hrxtk), attaching the names Gail Simone and John Byrne to the project.


December 27, 2005 – Under the header “Gay Award (http://tinyurl.com/yul79b)”, Johnston attaches homosexuality to the rumored Batwoman series, and suggests it will beat the Midnighter comic to the shelf, making it the first ongoing title with a gay lead.


December 27, 2005 – Writing for All The Rage, John Voulieris, reports a similar rumor (http://tinyurl.com/32fswf). In the “Not That There Is Anything Wrong With That” section, he writes:



“One of the big rumours coming out of DC these days is that one of the existing DCU superheroes will come out of the closet during the One Year Later event next summer. This is supposedly a silver age character who has been part of the DCU for decades. Let the speculation begin!
DC has also hinted that they will publish a new series that features a brand new superhero character whose civilian identity is openly gay, as well as a new solo series from Wildstorm featuring the Midnighter.”
February 6, 2006 – The rumor resurfaces again in LITG (http://tinyurl.com/2zxmlg). “And right now, DC have plans to publish a Batwoman series, with a lesbian character in the lead.”


March 5, 2006 – All The Rage, under “Bats Aplenty (http://tinyurl.com/yuwb9c)”, reports that Dan
DiDio said Barbara Gordon wouldn’t resume her career as Batgirl, but it doesn’t exclude another character from using a similar [costume] in the forthcoming Batwoman.


May 7, 2006 – All The Rage (http://tinyurl.com/2etcbr) wonders if Jimmy Palmiotti, Justin Gray and Amanda Conner are working on a Batwoman mini series. Not right at all though the rumor did involve a Batwoman. The book in question is a one-shot tie in to COUNTDOWN, the long-winded title: COUNTDOWN PRESENTS THE SEARCH FOR RAY PALMER: SUPERWOMAN/BATWOMAN #1.


May 27, 2006 – Partial confirmation of the rumor appears in the New York Times article (http://tinyurl.com/om7lc) with Dan DiDio talking about more diversity and Batwoman’s sexuality in DC Comics. Religious conservatives and many straight fan boys share in the cascading aneurysm that follows.


I wonder if Warner Bros executives had any idea its little subsidiary DC had a lesbian Batwoman comic in the planning stages before the newspaper article exploded the news. Did Warner Bros assume the worst and wanting to protect its investment and income potential, call up DiDio or Paul Levitz sometime between the Sunday Times piece and DiDio’s interview with Newsarama the following day and tell DC to put the project on the backburner immediately?


May 28, 2006 – Newsarama’s Matt Brady interviews (http://tinyurl.com/yr8h8z) Dan DiDio about the newly confirmed Batwoman. Quotes from DiDio include:

“…one of the things I’d like to see, at least in the beginning, is to see her as a character who will be appearing primarily in 52. Then, we’ll be exploring things in different ways.”


“I think this is a character that can really benefit from appearing in different books first before we test the waters with her on her own.”



June 5, 2006 – Only eight days after the New York Times piece, LITG’s Johnston attaches Devin Grayson (http://tinyurl.com/2ecapg)and Dustin Nguyen as the creative team on the book. Not much time at all between the Times story and being given names, one of which we know was indeed connected to the project.
Johnston notes “…the coverage has been generally positive and welcoming. Some have seen this as indicative of a sea change, especially in American society. It’s certainly different from the mauling Marvel received over “Rawhide Kid” which made them rather risk-averse in this area.”


Well, there was some evidence that Batwoman wasn’t welcomed by all as seen in this video (http://tinyurl.com/2rlcu3) from CNN reporter Jeanne Moos. Perhaps of more concern to WB was a podcast (http://tinyurl.com/2kst3d) from Concerned Women for America’s Robert Knight. The last thingWB would want to avoid is a backlash fueled by the Religious Right similar to what Marvel experienced.


July, 2006 –Batwoman makes her first cameo appearance in 52 #7, followed by a more prominent role in 52 # 11. Other appearances in tandem with Renée Montoya follow throughout the series.



December 10, 2006 – Under “Yuletide Rage (http://tinyurl.com/22x7tn)”, All The Rage reports Greg Rucka and Joe Benitez are slotted to work on a five issue story featuring Supergirl and Batwoman to run in SUPERMAN/BATMAN.


December 10, 2006 – The DCU Infinite Holiday Special one-shot includes a short story written by Greg Rucka that features Batwoman. It is the first and to date only solo story for the character.

May 2, 2007 – DC Direct Batwoman action figure available for the price of $18.99.


July 16, 2007 – In the ”Prince William (http://tinyurl.com/yvrt6h)” section, LITG tentatively names JH Williams III as new Batwoman artist.


July 19, 2007 – In the “Homosexuality in Comics (http://tinyurl.com/yphwme)” article on CBR, Devin Grayson publicly confirms being the writer and eight months in to the developing stage of a Batwoman comic before finding out through a newspaper article that her project was dead. The only remaining unconfirmed part of the rumor is whether Dustin Nguyen was the artist. Nguyen went on to other assignments while presumably none were offered to Grayson.


Grayson’s comments have, to my knowledge, never been acknowledged by anyone at DC and likely never will be. Still, with few exceptions comics pros aren’t known for publicly biting the hand that feeds them, so to speak. I’ve no doubt her account is 100 % accurate. The courtesy of an apology is the least DiDio could do.


August 17, 2007 – Some of the same points made by Grayson in the CBR article are reiterated by AfterEllen’s Editor in Chief Sarah Warn in an article ironically titled “Best. Lesbian. Week. Ever (http://tinyurl.com/2688ad).”If there is a silver lining, it’s that the article brought the matter to the attention of the greater LGBT community.

October 8, 2007 – DC solicits in advance a Batwoman bust, calling her the “crime-fighting partner of Batman.” Jim Maddox sculpts the bust from a Terry Dodson design. The item is scheduled to go on sale May 7, 2008.


October 8, 2007 – LITG reports the rumor that Greg Rucka will join JH Williams III on Batwoman. Under “Two Men and a Lesbian (http://tinyurl.com/yuuapy)”</a>: “This was meant to be announced during the summer conventions. It’s still being delayed - a mixture of managing professional workload, and DC’s nervousness about potentially damaging a brand with the publicity a title lead gay Bat-character may bring, and the release of “The Dark Knight” movie.”


Dark Knight was filming in Chicago during the height of the summer convention season. Wizard’s Chicago convention is one of the big summer events.

November 5, 2007 – LITG reports a rumor (http://tinyurl.com/2r5mrm) that the Batwoman series is held back because of the impending Batman movie in summer 2008. “And what of Batwoman? Well, I’m told the launch of the Rucka/Williams series has been pushed back yet again because of the movie, and fears of ‘unacceptable media coverage.’ I’m told four issues are fully completed.”

February 23, 2008 – At Wonder Con, Dan DiDio corrects a statement (http://tinyurl.com/27pd8o) from the previous day. In essence, he mistakenly said “Batwoman” when talking about an upcoming Batgirl mini series. DiDio states there is no Batwoman series coming soon and later adding that Batwoman “will be an integral part of the DC Universe in 2008.”


February 25, 2008 – In response to DiDio’s comments, blogger and former DC staffer Valerie D’Orazio wonders Whither Goest Batwoman (http://tinyurl.com/ywhmep)? D’Orazio posts a pic of Ellen DeGeneres as an example of how the public can and does support a lesbian in the entertainment industry. Ironically, DeGeneres’ show is produced in associated with and distributed by Warner Bros.


The Bat office was once not so long ago very queer friendly. Bob Schreck was the franchise’s main editor, Devin Grayson wrote Nightwing, and Holly Robinson and her girlfriend were once supporting characters in Catwoman. Schreck’s editorial duties switched along with many others around the time of “One Year Later.” Grayson stopped writing Nightwing in favor of developing Batwoman. Holly temporarily became Catwoman and then the character was moved out so she could join Countdown.


February 28, 2008 – Taking his cue from Dan DiDio, Tom Bondurant, in a Grumpy Old Fan (http://tinyurl.com/yv6u47)entry for Newsarama, speculates on how Batwoman “will be an integral part of the DC Universe in 2008.” Bondurant nicely points out the dichotomy between Didio’s comment about building a grass roots appeal for the character through exposure in other books and the nearly complete lack of same in the following years. Neither does he forget the scuttled Grayson book or the rumored Rucka/Williams stalled project.


March 15, 2008 – At Wizard World LA, writer James Robinson (http://tinyurl.com/2gpljs) announces at a panel a new Justice League book that he is writing. Team members include Batwoman and one-time Starman Mikaal Tomas, a bisexual, blue-skinned alien.

Robinson’s Starman is a comic I greatly enjoyed and dearly miss. The prospect of him writing two queer characters intrigues me. However, two and a half years have passed since the first rumors of a Batwoman comic and what I believe to be the project’s inception by Devin Grayson. In those two and a half years we’ve learned the project was unceremoniously killed and a change in attitude from solo series to building grass roots appeal ensued. Well, the latter approach was barely followed through on with a smattering of recurring roles once 52 finished. After a scuttled series what we have now is the prospect of yet another gay character relegated to the role of teammate/ supporting character. This and DiDio’s words that the character will be integral in 2008. The proof behind DiDio’s words remains to be seen.

February 6, 2009 - Newsarama reports (http://www.newsarama.com/php/multimedia/album.php?aid=25815)that Batwoman will appear in a run in Detective Comics starting with issue #854.

[Dirt Like Me]

Well, the second Batwoman issue was as kickass as the first.

I still don't know anything about the character, but it looks like she has a good backstory that will be told at some point. And the cult angle is also pretty interesting.

And that art...just, wow. The panel from inside of Alice's mouth was a riot and I liked the little panels-within-panels to highlight the action, too. I liked Williams' work on The Island of Mister Mayhew Batman arc, but I think this is just on another level.

I'm still not feeling the Question back-up, though, and I don't like hearing that its going to take up more pages of future issues.

[K.B.]

Just read the new issue...what a knockout book this is :woot:

[Ipodman]

Love both issue 1 and 2... gonna stay for the whole arc...

[Cain]

OK I was mixed on the first ish on this arc but this last issue has made me a believer, really great stuff all around that Detective #855 was.

[The Joker]

Yeah, I'm loving this story. The new villainess is really creepy.