Nolan's Batman means...

[chiefchirpa]

This is just my prediction:

1. No Harley Quinn - BTAS made Harley as another source of comic relief. Joker himself is often portrayed as the bumbling, comical villain. This would have little chance of synching with Nolan's world. Joker is a creepy maniac who laughs then kill. He doesn't need a comical assistant (or attractive comical assistant dreamt by young fans).
2. No variety of vehicles - The Thumbler would remain as Batman's choice of transportation since planes and motorcycles would just be too out of place in Nolan's interpretation. Boat would work as Gotham is still portrayed as a coastal city, but will have little screen time. Batman is mainly a hero on foot or with gliding cape.
3. Possible introduction of robots or mechanical exo-suit used by Villains - Never think that this is an impossibility in Nolan's Batman. Poison Ivy and Clay Face are farfetched. Bane as a Robo-villain? Very possible.

What are your own speculations on the next Batman films?

[The Sage]

1. I think Harley Quinn could work and her story is something I think would be up Nolan's alley. The girl gets corrupted by the Joker. It'd be quite the setup, seeing the Joker turn Harley to his side in The Dark Knight, then see Harvey fall himself in the sequel.

2. I think Nolan will have a different vehicle if it's necessary, and only that. If Batman has to solve a problem that requires him to be out in the water, he'll have a Batboat.

3. Poison Ivy was handled very realistically in BTAS, so she's definitely not a farfetched villain. Bane can be done realistically. His venom serum could be seen as a new form of steroids.

[Style 92]

This is just my prediction:

1. No Harley Quinn - BTAS made Harley as another source of comic relief. Joker himself is often portrayed as the bumbling, comical villain. This would have little chance of synching with Nolan's world. Joker is a creepy maniac who laughs then kill. He doesn't need a comical assistant (or attractive comical assistant dreamt by young fans). I guess you either haven't seen much of BTAS, or haven't seen it in a while.
2. No variety of vehicles - The Thumbler would remain as Batman's choice of transportation since planes and motorcycles would just be too out of place in Nolan's interpretation. Boat would work as Gotham is still portrayed as a coastal city, but will have little screen time. Batman is mainly a hero on foot or with gliding cape. Given enough time, Batman would have practical reasons for developing all of his vehicles. For road travel, the Tumblermobile doesn't make much sense. How is a huge thing like that supposed navigate congested city traffic? Guess BB established no one in Gotham has cars or uses cabs, the streets being way too empty. A motorcycle would make much more sense, much more maneuverability. You already mentioned why he may need a boat. And one of these days, he may go up against an airborn threat or have to travel outside of Gotham for some head bashing, then he'll need the jet. It's neccissary he get all his vehicle eventually.
3. Possible introduction of robots or mechanical exo-suit used by Villains - Never think that this is an impossibility in Nolan's Batman. Poison Ivy and Clay Face are farfetched. Bane as a Robo-villain? Very possible. Excuse me-- Robo-Bane? in the Nolan movie? What the hell? You know, if Nolan ever did use Bane, I'm sure he'd find steroid-abusing Bane much more realistic than whatever the hell "robo-bane" is. I'd love to see Clayface, but with Spidey using Sandman next year, well, using Clayface after that would just seem like a rip-off to people. Personally, I'm rooting for a properly-done Mr. Freeze and Manbat. Mr. Freeze sadly is probably forever forbidden from appearing in another Batman movie ever after Batman and Robin, but maybe Manbat one of these days...

[thedarks0ldier]

I am hoping we are getting the penguin, I would love to see Catwoman and Riddler some day also.

[y2jversion1]

This is just my prediction:

1. No Harley Quinn - BTAS made Harley as another source of comic relief. Joker himself is often portrayed as the bumbling, comical villain. This would have little chance of synching with Nolan's world. Joker is a creepy maniac who laughs then kill. He doesn't need a comical assistant (or attractive comical assistant dreamt by young fans).



I think Batman's rogues gallery has many more high-calibre foes with much more deeper character which would make Quinn seem insignificant. No big loss for me if Harley isn't in any of Nolan's films.


2. No variety of vehicles - The Thumbler would remain as Batman's choice of transportation since planes and motorcycles would just be too out of place in Nolan's interpretation. Boat would work as Gotham is still portrayed as a coastal city, but will have little screen time. Batman is mainly a hero on foot or with gliding cape.

I have no qualms of the Tumbler remained the vehicle of choice in the Nolan-verse. Aside from minor quirks (like the position adjusting when he needs to shoot etc.) it was portrayed very well as a durable, rugged & practical mean-machine for Batman. Maybe some upgrades would be cool however. I agree about your boat comment - since Gotham is coastal, a boat could be useful.

3. Possible introduction of robots or mechanical exo-suit used by Villains - Never think that this is an impossibility in Nolan's Batman. Poison Ivy and Clay Face are farfetched. Bane as a Robo-villain? Very possible.

I think Ivy is very much possible and so is Bane minus the robotics. He can easily be portrayed as a steroid or hormone abuser who would inject manually instead of having the automated "juicing" mechanism for 'reality' purposes. Unlike Superman's foes, Batman's (IMO) are more easily to represent in a realistic environment without changing too much.

[Style 92]

I am hoping we are getting the penguin, I would love to see Catwoman and Riddler some day also.Catwoman needs to be in this series immediatly. Delaying introducing her is a big mistake. Ideally, she should have been in Batman Begins.

Because, let's face it: SHE is the love of Batman's life. She is his big, destined for love interest. That's why love interests for Bruce flounder in the movies. They keep looking for Someone to be Batman's Lois Lane or Mary Jane Watson. But Batman doesn't have that. The love of his life is Catwoman.

That's why Catwoman should be portrayed as something of a pseudo villain and should have a place in most if not all Bat-movies. Screw Joker for 2 AND 3. Catwoman all the way!!!

[souvlaki]

This is just my prediction:

1. No Harley Quinn - BTAS made Harley as another source of comic relief. Joker himself is often portrayed as the bumbling, comical villain. This would have little chance of synching with Nolan's world. Joker is a creepy maniac who laughs then kill. He doesn't need a comical assistant (or attractive comical assistant dreamt by young fans).

No big loss there. I've always been of the opinion that while Harley Quinn is a good character, she only really works in the Animated Batman continuity (or for that matter, only works when written by Paul Dini). The fact of the matter is that no matter what your opinion is on Harley Quinn is, she does not work in a year one continuity, and introducing her in "The Dark Knight" would be a mistake.

2. No variety of vehicles - The Thumbler would remain as Batman's choice of transportation since planes and motorcycles would just be too out of place in Nolan's interpretation. Boat would work as Gotham is still portrayed as a coastal city, but will have little screen time. Batman is mainly a hero on foot or with gliding cape.

Like someone already said, I only see a neccessity for a Bat-boat, or Bat-plane if it is used to aid the story. Otherwise I see no real reason for them. As far as motorcycles go, I wouldn't really mind much. Batman used one in Year One, so I wouldn't particularly care if he used one now.

3. Possible introduction of robots or mechanical exo-suit used by Villains - Never think that this is an impossibility in Nolan's Batman. Poison Ivy and Clay Face are farfetched. Bane as a Robo-villain? Very possible.
What? :confused:

[Shoemeister]

I'm sorry.............
ROBOVILLAINS???




Yeah, cuz Robot Joker is really happening.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[NinjaTurtleFan]

This is just my prediction:

1. No Harley Quinn - BTAS made Harley as another source of comic relief. Joker himself is often portrayed as the bumbling, comical villain. This would have little chance of synching with Nolan's world. Joker is a creepy maniac who laughs then kill. He doesn't need a comical assistant (or attractive comical assistant dreamt by young fans).
2. No variety of vehicles - The Thumbler would remain as Batman's choice of transportation since planes and motorcycles would just be too out of place in Nolan's interpretation. Boat would work as Gotham is still portrayed as a coastal city, but will have little screen time. Batman is mainly a hero on foot or with gliding cape.
3. Possible introduction of robots or mechanical exo-suit used by Villains - Never think that this is an impossibility in Nolan's Batman. Poison Ivy and Clay Face are farfetched. Bane as a Robo-villain? Very possible.

What are your own speculations on the next Batman films?

1. Harley Quinn would work in a Nolan film. Here's why? What Bruce Tim and Paul Dini always try to convey with Harley was she was a lost soul who found a lost soul like her and she felt as though they were soulmates. Joker just thought she was just a hot piece of ass, but never really wanted her around. Their love is mostly like a trailer-trash abusive marriage where the girl will get slapped around or get a beer bottle thrown at her, but as many scrapes, cuts, or bruises she gets, she still loves the bastard.

2. I think if the story allows it Batman will get his motorcycle, boat, etc. but I think like the original Batman films where the Batmobile keeps getting new designs. The Tumbler was a big, monstrous tank-like humvee. Now it's time to get a sleeker, smoother Batmobile that'll outmaneuver turns, outrun cops even more, etc.

3. Poison Ivy is easy to use. Make her a radical left-winged environmentalist. Bane a hitman for hire who uses a new form of steroids. Clayface go the "BTAS" route with him. Mr. Freeze also "BTAS" route. Manbat I could never see working in Nolan's universe. The only way it could work is if Nolan leaves the franchise and someone takes over and they decide to bring in people who've never been done before like Ventriloquist, Lady Shiva, Mad Hatter, Babydoll, Killer Croc, etc.

[Cinemaman]

Thank God, Nolan won't use all these stupid aspects like robo-villians or new vehicles.

But Harley Quinn can work only as just Harleen Quinz, who can help Joker to escape Arkham in 3rd movie.

[afan]

Of the three, the introduction of an arsenal of Bat vehicles in Nolan's incarnation, is the only assumption one can make based on the precedent set by BB.
The Tumbler is not really necessary for Wayne's crusade in BB, and yet Nolan chose to include that element of the mythos. Other than the opportunity to include a high powered car chase, what other purpose did it perform. Wayne could drive to Gotham in any vehicle. So that precedent being set, the inclusion of a muscle car for the sake of the muscle car alone could easily lead one into the expansion to other Bat-vehicles. Especially if (and this we don't know for sure at all) Nolan's Batman becomes Gotham's guardian / protector as he did at the conclusion of Burton's Batman and in Batman Returns. That official status would allow Batman the freedom to legitimately operate any number of Bat-vehicles.

[El Payaso]

1. No Harley Quinn - BTAS made Harley as another source of comic relief. Joker himself is often portrayed as the bumbling, comical villain. This would have little chance of synching with Nolan's world. Joker is a creepy maniac who laughs then kill. He doesn't need a comical assistant (or attractive comical assistant dreamt by young fans).

I hope.

2. No variety of vehicles - The Thumbler would remain as Batman's choice of transportation since planes and motorcycles would just be too out of place in Nolan's interpretation. Boat would work as Gotham is still portrayed as a coastal city, but will have little screen time. Batman is mainly a hero on foot or with gliding cape.

Good.

3. Possible introduction of robots or mechanical exo-suit used by Villains - Never think that this is an impossibility in Nolan's Batman. Poison Ivy and Clay Face are farfetched. Bane as a Robo-villain? Very possible.

I'm... sorry?

[fabman]

1-No nipples
2-No camp
3-A great movie (in line with movies like Indiana Jones) and not "comic book movie"

[Steelsheen]

i think most major/ well-established characters in the Batman can work in Nolan's franchise, even Clay Face. it just depends on how they are brought to life onscreen.

[Mr. Thing]

I want, no, need Poison Ivy to be in one of these films.

[Two-Face]

Ivy can be done right but I don't Ivy yet in Batman movies

[DOG LIPS]

2. No variety of vehicles - The Thumbler would remain as Batman's choice of transportation since planes and motorcycles would just be too out of place in Nolan's interpretation. Boat would work as Gotham is still portrayed as a coastal city, but will have little screen time. Batman is mainly a hero on foot or with gliding cape.
That would be a great villain name.

[BmAaTn3625]

I really believe a bad #ss motorcycle that nolan and crowley could come up with would rock in the sequel. It is easier for Batman to weave in and out of traffic and go down the allies of gotham easier

[Cannibal Feast]

I just want to see Bat-Mite.

[elorenishii386]

I could see Dr. Harleen Quinzell in the Dark Knight...then Harley Quinn in BB3.


Most of all I really want what I've been saying for months now...Selina Kyle/Catwoman have to be in the next two sequels!!! It would be a really big disappointment if Nolan did not include her. The relationship b/w Bruce and Selina would be great!

[Rynan]

Did somebody say Robot Joker?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Rynan/RoboJoker2.jpg

[NinjaTurtleFan]

I could see Dr. Harleen Quinzell in the Dark Knight...then Harley Quinn in BB3.


Most of all I really want what I've been saying for months now...Selina Kyle/Catwoman have to be in the next two sequels!!! It would be a really big disappointment if Nolan did not include her. The relationship b/w Bruce and Selina would be great!

Least let her be Selina Kyle in "The Dark Knight" and Catwoman in the third. Then, you could set it up where they're having this great relationship, but then things get rocky and cataclysmic when both can't keep hiding their separate identities from each other. Eventually they realize their love will never be for now. Which if you did this could set up how each girl Bruce meets he'll never have anything with them because he can't separate himself from Batman and rescuing Gotham.

Sure, it's a little bit like "Spider-Man" where he loses girl, gains girl, then loses girl again, but this route seems to work in comic-book movies alot so why not keep doing it.

[chiefchirpa]

Ok, Harley Quinn will be in BB3? Harley Quinn suddenly becomes a real villain or Joker will be present in 2 movies? No. Please no.

I think Joker is going to bite the dust in TDK whether he's going to be arrested in Arkham or die. No Joker, No Harley. Harley is an accomplice to Joker and not a major villain. I would hate to see Joker in 2 films because unlike Superman, Batman has too many major villains to choose.

My opinion:
1. Robot Joker is stupid. He's a psychopathic almost-genius, not an uber-strong criminal. On the other hand, providing Bane with an exo-suit that grants him tremendous strength that is more believable than steroids. In the real world - steroids would allow you to become a Tour de France champion, but should not make you crush DC's 2nd most powerful Superhero.

2. I am not too keen of Catwoman for the 3rd film. Nolan's Batman should be about a story on conflict between good and evil. Catwoman is just a burglar and not a true evil. Bringing in Catwoman would bring in Romance but please leave Romance with Superman or Spider-Man.

3. Riddler could definitely work in Nolan's Batman. The question is: Will he bring enough action to the film? Riddler is more of a cerebral villain. There has to be another direct-approach nemesis in the same film to make the 3rd film an interesting one (read: to make moviegoers interested, especially the non-comic readers).

[Agentsands77]

No big loss there. I've always been of the opinion that while Harley Quinn is a good character, she only really works in the Animated Batman continuity (or for that matter, only works when written by Paul Dini). The fact of the matter is that no matter what your opinion is on Harley Quinn is, she does not work in a year one continuity, and introducing her in "The Dark Knight" would be a mistake.
Thank you. Somebody I can agree with!

Harley Quinn is a character that, if used by Nolan, would have to be pretty radically reinvented. She's a fairly comical, campy character as we know her, and so Nolan would really have to change her. And if Nolan has to change her so much, I then have to ask, "What's the point of using the character?" Not to mention I'd prefer she wasn't used, period, just because I don't think the Joker needs a side-kick.

Though I do say, if they did want to do something interesting with Dr. Harleen Quinzel, they could. Have Dr. Harleen Quinzel meet Joker when he's incarcerated at the end of THE DARK KNIGHT. The Joker would then destroy her mind leading up to her helping him escape in BB3. The Joker could then just kill her. It's a big change, but it's delightfully disturbing - the Joker drives a person insane and then murders them. I know I'd like it.

1. Harley Quinn would work in a Nolan film. Here's why? What Bruce Tim and Paul Dini always try to convey with Harley was she was a lost soul who found a lost soul like her and she felt as though they were soulmates. Joker just thought she was just a hot piece of ass, but never really wanted her around. Their love is mostly like a trailer-trash abusive marriage where the girl will get slapped around or get a beer bottle thrown at her, but as many scrapes, cuts, or bruises she gets, she still loves the bastard.
Umm, the Joker should never be out for a "hot piece of ass." If anything, he's asexual in the sense of human relations. And what sexuality he does have manifests itself in violence, not in the act. The Joker has only one "love affair" of sorts, and that's with Batman.

[CConn]

Ok, Harley Quinn will be in BB3? Harley Quinn suddenly becomes a real villain or Joker will be present in 2 movies? No. Please no.

I think Joker is going to bite the dust in TDK whether he's going to be arrested in Arkham or die. No Joker, No Harley. Harley is an accomplice to Joker and not a major villain. I would hate to see Joker in 2 films because unlike Superman, Batman has too many major villains to choose.Nolan's been quoted as saying they "won't make the same mistake" of the previous franchise by killing off the villains. And Goyer's said Joker will be the one to scar Harvey Dent in BB3, so you're probably wrong. :o

[Canis Sapiens]

Did somebody say Robot Joker?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Rynan/RoboJoker2.jpg



LMAO! :D

[Agentsands77]

Nolan's been quoted as saying they "won't make the same mistake" of the previous franchise by killing off the villains. And Goyer's said Joker will be the one to scar Harvey Dent in BB3, so you're probably wrong. :o
That's one of the single best contributions of this new series. The villains survive, and even if they don't appear again, you just know they're not killed off.

I love how Joker will apparently be a major part of THE DARK KNIGHT and BB3. If Goyer's comments hold true, the third film will deal with the trial of the Joker. It's a fascinating subject, one the comics have never truly explored, and it's nice to know that the Joker's potential isn't being entirely used up in one film.

[muertevilla]

Mr. Freeze has always been one of my favorite villians. I would love to see his character done some justice. ****ing arnold rocks as the turdminator, but as Mr. Freeze?? Well i just pretend batman and robin never happened. Since i was a kid i always saw Christopher Lloyd playing Mr. Freez3 (and laugh all you want..but just think of Doc from BTTF in the Mr. Freeze suit). I hope harley quin shows up. and well after seeing nolan's work, i totally trust the direction he goes in this next film. i think bane is a lame character all together and should just stay out of the batman films all together. :marv:

[NinjaTurtleFan]

Thank you. Somebody I can agree with!

Harley Quinn is a character that, if used by Nolan, would have to be pretty radically reinvented. She's a fairly comical, campy character as we know her, and so Nolan would really have to change her. And if Nolan has to change her so much, I then have to ask, "What's the point of using the character?" Not to mention I'd prefer she wasn't used, period, just because I don't think the Joker needs a side-kick.

Though I do say, if they did want to do something interesting with Dr. Harleen Quinzel, they could. Have Dr. Harleen Quinzel meet Joker when he's incarcerated at the end of THE DARK KNIGHT. The Joker would then destroy her mind leading up to her helping him escape in BB3. The Joker could then just kill her. It's a big change, but it's delightfully disturbing - the Joker drives a person insane and then murders them. I know I'd like it.


Umm, the Joker should never be out for a "hot piece of ass." If anything, he's asexual in the sense of human relations. And what sexuality he does have manifests itself in violence, not in the act. The Joker has only one "love affair" of sorts, and that's with Batman.

You missed the point. Harley goes to Joker because she feels their hearts and souls are similiar. Joker could give a hell if she's tagging along or what. To me the easiest way to show that is make them a couple on the rocks like he beats her and slaps her, but she comes back looking for attention and for him to love her. He could give a **** less because he just wants to kill Batman and come up with many schemes as possible to bring him down. Harley of course will tag along and assist him, but she'll get nervous when he orders her around to shoot someone, or do this or do that, because let's face it unlike Joker she's got a guilty conscience that kicks in.

That's the way I see her in a Nolan Batman film because it seems like it fits his reality-mindset.

[Agentsands77]

I guess, but considering Nolan would have to radically change Harley's personality, what's the point of using her? If somebody could really explain to me why Harley Quinn is such an important thing to bring into the films, I'll be very happy. I do believe she could be done, but Nolan would really have to take quite a dark turn with the character.

I've never liked the Joker with a permanent sidekick ala Harley Quinn. I just don't see him with any consistent help and I've always wondered why he hasn't just killed her yet, especially when she's so incredibly inept. I've always thought of the Joker as a solo character. There should be no "couple" at all - the Joker shouldn't have a female consort.

[CConn]

I guess, but considering Nolan would have to radically change Harley's personality, what's the point of using her? If somebody could really explain to me why Harley Quinn is such an important thing to bring into the films, I'll be very happy. I do believe she could be done, but Nolan would really have to take quite a dark turn with the character.

I've never liked the Joker with a permanent sidekick ala Harley Quinn. I just don't see him with any consistent help and I've always wondered why he hasn't just killed her yet, especially when she's so incredibly inept. I've always thought of the Joker as a solo character. There should be no "couple" at all - the Joker shouldn't have a female consort.See if you can find, and read, the Mad Love graphic novel by Timm and Dini. The really the best argument for Harley Quinn anyone could give. Maybe not for her importance to the Joker, but for her importance as a character in general. The book also demonstrates several character traits that he wouldn't need to "radically change" to bring to the screen seriously.

[Agentsands77]

See if you can find, and read, the Mad Love graphic novel by Timm and Dini.
I've read it. It's great for the Timm/Dini Batman world, but it's not something that makes me say, "Hey, let's bring this over into the normal continuity."

The really the best argument for Harley Quinn anyone could give. Maybe not for her importance to the Joker, but for her importance as a character in general.
It's good for what it is, but I still don't feel that her character is all that important. What do you specifically find so important about the character?

[CConn]

It's good for what it is, but I still don't feel that her character is all that important. What do you specifically find so important about the character?Her motivation for being a villain. It's really quite different than any other villain's (at least any that I can think of). And I'm not particularly talking about her infatuation with the Joker, but rather what the infatuation means; weakness; submission.

While Catwoman and Poison Ivy are seemingly poster women for feminine power, while most villains prescribe to either egotism or outright murderous lunacy, Harley is different. Her psychosis doesn't turn her into an egotist or an outright serial killer, but instead makes her, in essence, a slave. A slave to the Joker, a slave to her own obsession. And that she would go to sound homocidal lengths in the name of that obsession is quite interesting to me to say the least.

IMO, certainly as interesting as it is to see why Joker, or Black Mask, or Zsasz, or Venom, or any of the other really great psycho killers in comics do the things they do. The specific reason why she's important as a character is she's twisted. But she does it in her own, interesting, way. Like every good psychopathic villain does.

[E-Mack]

Well written my man, well written. :up:

If she's ever done in live-action, I wonder how they'll do her voice. In Mad Love, prior to her manipulation, she had a very womanly, but mature voice. Once she goes into Harley Quinzell mode, she sounds like a complete baby doll.

Never really bought the explanation (more like inferred, since it was never explained) that it was all psychological, but that's just me.

[Agentsands77]

That's an excellent explanation as to why the character's interesting and has really given me a newfound respect for the concept of the character, but I have yet to see the character reach the potential of that thematic development that you just described.

What I guess I really just don't find all that fascinating is the BTAS version of the character. It's not allowed to get as truly dark and as disturbing as that idea could really be, and it's played mostly for laughs with a cutesy personality and all that.

But if you make the character something terribly tragic, if you really make Harley Quinn an absolutely broken girl desperate for love but never receiving it, well you've got something there. You'd just really have to play up that bitter, dark tragedy of the character. Don't dress it up in comic relief or cutesy voices, just undress it for what it is.

Following that line of thought and interpretation, I think the ultimate culmination of her relationship wtih Joker would be the Joker killing her at some point down the line, solidifying her tragic status and the Joker's absolute inhumanity. If done right, it could be one of the greatest Joker moments of all time.

[E-Mack]

If the character hasn't reached that potential yet, all the more reason why it would be good to introduce her on film. It would bring something new to the table, while expanding on what was already previously written for Harley.

[Agentsands77]

If the character hasn't reached that potential yet, all the more reason why it would be good to introduce her on film. It would bring something new to the table, while expanding on what was already previously written for Harley.
It is actually a great case for using her. Take her basic origin and concept, then take the character to a whole new level of dramatic power. I'd be up for that, and I think it's definitely doable.

But if the character is going to be the Harley Quinn we've seen before, I don't have an interest in seeing that brought to the screen.

[E-Mack]

Well, actually the character was kinda always there. That description isn't far off from what we saw Harley as. The reason why it wasn't depicted to the level CConn explained it, is because it was simply a kid's cartoon. :confused:

Which btw, is a great testament to Paul Dini. :up:

[Agentsands77]

Well, actually the character was kinda always there. That description isn't far off from what we saw Harley as. The reason why it wasn't depicted to the level CConn explained it, is because it was simply a kid's cartoon. :confused:
Yeah, but to me it doesn't cut it because it is kid-friendly, and while the potential was there, the character has mainly been used for comic relief. She has a jokey personality, a cutesy voice, etc. and so on. Somebody once remarked to me that the character had a great backstory, but none of it seemed to show up beyond that, and I agreed.

For Harley Quinn to really work and be emotionally powerful and gripping, it has to go into bolder territory and take the character to a level where she hasn't been.

Which btw, is a great testament to Paul Dini. :up:
I love Paul Dini. The way he's reinvented so many of the Batman characters is fantastic (Mr. Freeze is now a terrific character thanks to him). I just don't think BTAS is really his best work because of how kid-friendly he was required to be. I do rather like a lot of his comic book work, though, and he's still the one behind the best-realized Joker origin to date ("Case Study" from BATMAN: BLACK AND WHITE).

[Agentsands77]

I hate this idea as much as I hate the idea of Joker killing Scarecrow. He doesn't need to kill any of the major or well known villains to show how crazy he is.
Of course he doesn't need to show he's crazy. But I'm not really arguing on those grounds. In the individual case of Harley Quinn, thematically, that's the best way to finally tie her character together in one story.

She's the ultimate slave, the ultimate tragic creature desperate for love but never receiving it. Thus, her end would be the same thing - the ultimate display of the Joker's absolute lack of humanity or anything resembling love. There's something about it that just so perfectly fits in a mythological sense.

And you have to understand, I'm not necessarily suggesting this gets shown in the movies, mind you. I think this would be better suited for the comics, to be quite honest.

I might be able to believe him leaving her to die the majority of the time because he always does that, but he doesn't need to kill her.
He doesn't need to outright kill her. It could just be leaving her to die and her actually dying, or something along those lines. But when that resolution comes (and it does have to come sooner or later), that's how it has to end to really bring the thematic end to the character.

Or another interesting twist would be to pull something like X3 with Mystique/Magneto, wherein Harley would die saving the Joker from a bullet or something like that, only to be left dying without a second thought from the Joker. That could really hold promise to - it would certainly be a haunting image to have her calling out to the Joker as he leaves her in a puddle of blood.

And besides, once the character has said what she's there to say, you might as well take her out of the picture. I do think you can only do so much with Harley Quinn because she's so tied to the Joker. She's always in that sort of sidekick role.

[CConn]

I'll be honest though, while Harley definitely has all of the potential depth I spoke of, probably all she would get, and all she would be needed for in TDK or BB3 is a pretty simple cameo/replacement for Jonathan Crane at Arkham. And honestly, as a fan of her, if she's cast well, I'll be perfectly fine with that (limited) role.

[Agentsands77]

She's no only always Joker's sidekick. She's teamed up with Poison Ivy before as a partner but she still acted as a sidekick, which I vy tries to snap her out of.
Eh, that stuff wasn't any great material. It wasn't a very successful attempt to get her out of the Joker sidekick role. But honestly, even that has limits. She'll run out of stuff to do on her own too - she's no criminal mastermind. If she does pull stuff on her own now, it would have a very "been there, done that" feel to it.

And even if she's not actually side-by-side with the Joker, she's always tied to him. It's always Harley and the Joker. She is a character that has defined herself by another human being, and that human being is the Joker. So they are somewhat inseparable.

Eventually, Harley Quinn will have to die. She's not a character of unlimited potential that's worth keeping around forever. And when that moment comes, there is a right way to do it.

[CConn]

She has a - simply put - submissive nature to her. That's just who she is, and like I said, in plays into what she's all about.

[Agentsands77]

I'll be honest though, while Harley definitely has all of the potential depth I spoke of, probably all she would get, and all she would be needed for in TDK or BB3 is a pretty simple cameo/replacement for Jonathan Crane at Arkham. And honestly, as a fan of her, if she's cast well, I'll be perfectly fine with that (limited) role.
Well, I could definitely live with that and it's all I'm expecting, really.

To be quite honest, I'd be far more interested in seeing Harley Quinn's potential depth explored in graphic novel form, anyhow, since it hasn't been explored there, either. I want to see her fully cross-over from the kid-oriented version and really come into her own, using that potential (and eventually at some point reach the tragic end I've been harping on).

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Well, the potential with Harley is to get ANOTHER dark side out of Joker.

People only pick on the cute side of they're relationship.....but essentially, she's the wife and the Joker is the absuive, wife beater.

He's beaten her before......and he constantly demeans her, and like CConn said....she's got a submissive nature. I think people would really really grow to hate the Joker even more for what he'd do to her, and the way he manipulates her really.

But, I think people only see the campy side of it....which, honestly....has never been quite campy at all.

[Shoemeister]

Did somebody say Robot Joker?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/Rynan/RoboJoker2.jpg

:eek: OH NO!!! TEH ROOMURZ BE TROO!!!!!111~ :eek:

[Agentsands77]

She doesn't have to die, let her become a patient of Arkham so it could end her character with irony; First she works there, falls in love with crazy man, goes crazy, and ends up becomng a patient.
Her character already has that irony. She's been in Arkham. The irony of the doctor becoming a crazy person is already ingrained in her character. That provides no real resolution to her character, especially considering almost every villain ever has been confined in Arkham at one point or another, and it doesn't provide resolution.

The only truly final resolution for a character is how they die. That's how a character's journey is finally closed. Thematically, I think her death could be so dramatic and powerful and tragic (and thus, thematically fulfilling). Tragedy is the key here, and that needs to be played up for all its worth. That end would be such a magnificent moment in mythology that it's worth doing at some point.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Eventually, Harley Quinn will have to die. She's not a character of unlimited potential that's worth keeping around forever. And when that moment comes, there is a right way to do it.

Why kill her?

I'd prefer we just see him beat on her, belittle her......and kinda play on that sad abusive-submissive, relationship they have.

But......I don't see any reason to kill her at all. If she's introduced, I doubt it'd just be to add another kill to his list. It'd be pointless to even introduce her if that's the plan.

[Agentsands77]

But, I think people only see the campy side of it....which, honestly....has never been quite campy at all.
Oh yeah it has. She's been mostly comic relief. There's a darker theme under there, but it's never really been brought out because the character was initially written as kid-friendly, and then when she was transferred over to the normal comic book continuity, she was never brought into a more adult area.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

The only truly final resolution for a character is how they die. That's how a character's journey is finally closed. Thematically, I think her death could be so dramatic and powerful and tragic (and thus, thematically fulfilling). Tragedy is the key here, and that needs to be played up for all its worth. That end would be such a magnificent moment in mythology that it's worth doing at some point.

I dunno....you have the potential of alienating more fans, than making them, on something like that.

But, I think death can sometimes be a cop out. Like, we don't know what to do with her.....so....lets kill her. It's something that happens in comics too often.

I think it'd be even MORE tragic just to see her be with the Joker, and watch her be under his spell.

[Agentsands77]

But......I don't see any reason to kill her at all.

If she's introduced, I doubt it'd just be to add another kill to his list. It'd be pointless to even introduce her if that's the plan.
I'm not saying kill her in the film series - I'm more talking about the comic book continuity. Give it five or ten years, and then take on that story in the comics.

In the films, if she were introduced, keep her alive. We're still in the early years of Batman, anyhow.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Oh yeah it has. She's been mostly comic relief. There's a darker theme under there, but it's never really been brought out because the character was initially written as kid-friendly, and then when she was transferred over to the normal comic book continuity, she was never brought into a more adult area.

Well, MAD LOVE is a good read. It delves into that stuff pretty good.

But, in BTAS....isn't the Joker providing most of the comedy anyway??

As for the comics....well, she wasn't created there....so it's no real surprise that they don't "get" her yet. The comics have a funny way of flopping and fumbling stuff for a good while before getting a good grip.

[Agentsands77]

I think it'd be even MORE tragic just to see her be with the Joker, and watch her be under his spell.
Oh, of course, but that whole dynamic does eventually run out of excitement at some point. It could be ten years from now, I don't know, but when that point comes, I think Harley Quinn's death would be worth seeing because it would really be such a magnificent moment.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I'm not saying kill her in the film series - I'm more talking about the comic book continuity. Give it five or ten years, and then take on that story in the comics.

In the films, if she were introduced, keep her alive. We're still in the early years of Batman, anyhow.

Oh, okay.

But, I still don't see why do it. Even more in the comics. We'd get another "Jason Todd" situation on our hands.....and we really don't need that.

For what it's worth though, I haven't seen anything from her in a while. With IC, who knows....maybe she'll get a re-introduction with retconned stuff.

But, to wait 5 or 10 years for the Joker's girl....I dunno. I don't think people would care enough, so the years might not mean much in making her a better character.

[Agentsands77]

Exactly. At some point. It doesn't have to be in the same movie she would introduced in.
And I never meant to suggest that it should be, if that's what you were taking away from my posts. You seem to be taking everything I'm saying in context of the film series, and I'm actually thinking more along the lines of comic book continuity.

I just mean that the character in general will end at some point, whether in the comics or movies (I doubt the movies will run long enough that she'd ever have to be killed off in the movies), and when that happens, there's a proper way to do it.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Oh, of course, but that whole dynamic does eventually run out of excitement at some point. It could be ten years from now, I don't know, but when that point comes, I think Harley Quinn's death would be worth seeing because it would really be such a magnificent moment.

Well, I think they could be seprated for a good long while......I think sort of like a marriage speration type of thing.....and eventually have them come back to eachother.

But.....I dunno. Killing her, that seems like such a drastic step for a character that really isn't in bad way.

[Agentsands77]

But, I still don't see why do it. Even more in the comics. We'd get another "Jason Todd" situation on our hands.....and we really don't need that.
Why would it bear any resemblance to Jason Todd? Characters die in the Batman universe all the time. It would just be another.

But, to wait 5 or 10 years for the Joker's girl....I dunno. I don't think people would care enough, so the years might not mean much in making her a better character.
Oh, I hope she gets retconned as soon as possible. But I just mean when it becomes clear the time is right to kill her off in the comics in the sense that they've covered most of the angles with here, which I don't really know when it would be (but I'd know it when we got there), there's a way to do it.

[Agentsands77]

Killing her, that seems like such a drastic step for a character that really isn't in bad way.
Umm, I'm talking about the *eventual* end of the character. I'm not talking about now, or anytime soon.

Every character has a theoretical eventual end somewhere, even Batman has a theoretical death moment somewhere off in the future. There will come a time when that end comes to pass for Harley Quinn and there's a right way to give Harley Quinn her send-off.

Heck, it wouldn't even have to be in continuity - we've seen the Joker killed off many ways in different non-continuity stories (THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS or KINGDOM COME, for example, or even BATMAN BEYOND: RETURN OF THE JOKER).

Perhaps a stand-alone, outside-of-continuity story could cover the death of Harley Quinn or at least have it as an event in the story somewhere. It would allow those who liked it to like it and see it as the future of the character and those who didn't like it could just utterly ignore it. Either way, it wouldn't affect mainstream continuity, but still allow for the story to be told.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Why would it bear any resemblance to Jason Todd? Characters die in the Batman universe all the time. It would just be another.


That's what I mean. They kill her off, it's just another comic death that means nothing.....b/c they'll bring her back.

And, if it does mean something.....and has an impact, we'll get another Jason Todd...where, at best, it'll be mixed.

Plus, this day and age......it's near impossible to kill a character and make it have any impact without it being a MAJOR character. I guess Superboy could count.....but knowing he'll eventuall return. I dunno. The deaths mean less to me.

Oh, I hope she gets retconned as soon as possible. But I just mean when it becomes clear the time is right to kill her off in the comics in the sense that they've covered most of the angles with here, which I don't really know when it would be (but I'd know it when we got there), there's a way to do it.

Well, it all depends on who's writing her. I mean, one would think that the Joker's been squeezed for all he's worth by now.....but he's not. And really, I think there's so much more to explore and stick with in Harley. I think death should be the furthest thing from DC's plans. Retconned is a possibilty. I mean, Joe Chill and his arrest was brought into continuity.

Umm, I'm talking about the *eventual* end of the character. I'm not talking about now, or anytime soon.

Every character has a theoretical eventual end somewhere, even Batman has a theoretical death moment somewhere off in the future. There will come a time when that end comes to pass for Harley Quinn and there's a right way to give Harley Quinn her send-off.

Heck, it wouldn't even have to be in continuity - we've seen the Joker killed off many ways in different non-continuity stories (THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS or KINGDOM COME, for example, or even BATMAN BEYOND: RETURN OF THE JOKER).

Perhaps a stand-alone, outside-of-continuity story could cover the death of Harley Quinn or at least have it as an event in the story somewhere. It would allow those who liked it to like it and see it as the future of the character and those who didn't like it could just utterly ignore it. Either way, it wouldn't affect mainstream continuity, but still allow for the story to be told.

Yeah, but......those never seem to "count" b/c they're always stand alones and such. Really, these characters will never no an end b/c the fans will never allow them to. And, good ideas are so hard to come by in the superhero genre...kill her off would be tough to do.

Then again, having an out-of-continuity thing going is something to appease fans of something we'll most likely never see.

Btw, I think I heard DC is done with the ELSEWORLD market. I still think it's b.s., but that's the word.

In a way, though. We do sort of get the "end" of Harley in BATMAN BEYOND ROTJ.

[wikum]

Catwoman needs to be in this series immediatly. Delaying introducing her is a big mistake. Ideally, she should have been in Batman Begins.

Because, let's face it: SHE is the love of Batman's life. She is his big, destined for love interest. That's why love interests for Bruce flounder in the movies. They keep looking for Someone to be Batman's Lois Lane or Mary Jane Watson. But Batman doesn't have that. The love of his life is Catwoman.

That's why Catwoman should be portrayed as something of a pseudo villain and should have a place in most if not all Bat-movies. Screw Joker for 2 AND 3. Catwoman all the way!!!


You make a few very good points there. I am sure Adam West would agree with you ("ohhh miss kitka").

I still think the sequel could have Selina Kyle in it.

[Agentsands77]

That's what I mean. They kill her off, it's just another comic death that means nothing.....b/c they'll bring her back.
No they wouldn't. She's a minor character that's only been introduced in the last fifteen years. They wouldn't need to bring her back.

Yeah, but......those never seem to "count" b/c they're always stand alones and such. Really, these characters will never no an end b/c the fans will never allow them to. And, good ideas are so hard to come by in the superhero genre...kill her off would be tough to do.
They do count, because ultimately, though we pretend there is, Batman has no real, genuine continuity. We all form our own "canons" of sort, take what we like, leave what we dislike.

Btw, I think I heard DC is done with the ELSEWORLD market. I still think it's b.s., but that's the word.
If true, it's depressing. Some of the best Batman material comes from elseworlds, or at least stand-alone, outside-of-continuity stories (ala THE LONG HALLOWEEN).

In a way, though. We do sort of get the "end" of Harley in BATMAN BEYOND ROTJ.
Yeah. And it's awful.