And you thought the crap marvel have been spouting so far was bad

[hippy fascist]

Here from one of marvel's worst offenders when it comes to delays are the thoughts of Brain Hitch as posted on the millar world forums RE marvels decision to delay pretty much half their current line-up

It's also their CHOICE. Marvel had the choice to get a fill-in or even a little help. Mark and Steve both expected it by this stage and were okay with it. NOBODY on the creative end of MCW asked Marvel to do what they have done. This came from Marvel because of how they feel about it and because THEY want Mark and Steve together until the end. McN isn't drastically behind and they gave him some breathing room to sneak past the finish. Great. Hoorah.

On a world scale of events this really shouldn't register on your give-a-****-o'metres. Why not all go out and lose your virginity or something?

Hitchy


Why am I even posting? Good god, a moment of clarity!

Why does it not surprise me that an artist on one of marvel's most delayed books of the last few years would chime in with such a response. At least Millar and McNiven had the decency to apologise, this prick's just taking angry fans and baiting them some more.

If I want to come on the internet and have a rant I bloody well will (I haven't posted in that thread yet 'cause they just spend their days licking millars arse) **** Hitch, ultimates just left my pull list for good. I'm not gonna line the pockets of an arsehole who comes online and slags off the very people who PAY HIS WAGES just because we're voicing our displeasure over a colossal case of bad management. I'm done with him :down:cmad::down:cmad::down:cmad:

I know this is a rant but for god's sake have some respect for your fans and let them voice their opinions

Final word: Wanker

[Sentry2005]

Damn... Ultimates and Civil War are delayed... to hell with this... i'll catch you guys later, i'm gonna go lose my virginity.

[hippy fascist]

I want mine back...

[gildea]

I know this is a rant but for god's sake have some respect for your fans and let them voice their opinions


I would assume hitch was responsding to the more angry and vocal fans that were pretty abusive over at the millarworld boards and not fans in general.


(I haven't posted in that thread yet 'cause they just spend their days licking millars arse)

Frankly this is a blatant lie.
There is the standard creator worship but there is an awful lot of criticism of millar over at his own board.
Heck have you read all of the thread at millarworld (a brief read would show how blatant a lie the above quote is) or are you just cross posting to start another angry *****y thread for kicks?

[Sentry2005]

I want mine back...

You can have mine! Swapsies! :p

[hippy fascist]

actually I wasn't trying to start an angry thread, I've already said that Millar and McNiven's apology was greatly appreciated, but for an artist like hitch who is more guilty of lateness than most that attacking fans in this way is out of line. If fan's want to vent, let them vent. Comics are kept alive by forums and for him to go with the classic stereotype of you post on a forum and therefore you must live in your mom's basement and be a 30yr old virgin is insulting and unnecessary. If you're a football player you don't go round saying all football fans are agressive thugs and if you're a comic book artist you don't say people who come online to ***** about a pretty MAJOR **** UP are worthless, dateless losers. Millar and McNiven no problem, Marvel I am quite pissed with, HITCH...Well he can just go **** himself

[gildea]

actually I wasn't trying to start an angry thread,

Absolute rubbish.
One look at the thread title readily confirms your intentions here. This was never going to be anything other than an angry thread.

If fan's want to vent, let them vent. Comics are kept alive by forums and for him to go with the classic stereotype of you post on a forum and therefore you must live in your mom's basement and be a 30yr old virgin is insulting and unnecessary. If you're a football player you don't go round saying all football fans are agressive thugs and if you're a comic book artist you don't say people who come online to ***** about a pretty MAJOR **** UP are worthless, dateless losers. Millar and McNiven no problem, Marvel I am quite pissed with, HITCH...Well he can just go **** himself

Though I actually do agree with the thrust of your post here (if fans want to vent let them vent) that doesn;t make it gospel. The thread at millarworld was quite *****y and as the poster boy for lateness hitch was getting dragged in to it too, the creative teams are human like you and I so their tolerance for bull**** is probably similar too. These people are not priests they don't NEED to put up with lots of ill founded bashing (if I was in his position I would but thats me no thim).

Dare I suggest if artists want to vent let them vent?

[hippy fascist]

OK, look at it like this all I'm saying here is, "the customer is always right" I used to run my own business doing club nights and if I got someone coming up to me a shouting there mouth off I would say... fine, let's address those issues and see if we can't find a way to incorporate what you think, you want these changes, I'll see what I can do, can do that, can't do that...but here's why I can't". A constructive response is fine by me which is why as I said I respected Millar and McNiven fro what they had to say, but if your boss (and in a medium like this the readers really are your "boss" came over and chewed a co-worker out for handing work in late that was going to cause major ramifications for the company would you come over and call him an arsehole loser or would you try to rectify the situation by laying out a decent argument for why it was late thus supporting your friend whilst avoiding BITING THE HAND THAT FEEDS.

I'm not having a go at you gildea and don't want this to be taken that way, so I just wanna say no hard feelings? :up:

I'm just pissed at the sheer level of cheek Hitch is showing here. If comic bbok readers are put off by this that means less sales so his and others job's are then put at risk, he shouldn't be adding to that, he should be seeking resolution.

People seem to think that *****ing about this is going over the top but if we all just go "oh it's ok keep dropping stuff in late" then this problem will get worse and worse. Sometimes a backlash of this nature can be a good thing because it will wake marvel and it's creative teams up to the fact that this kind of this is NOT acceptable. Not only that what about the artists and writers who DO manage to get their books out on time EVERY month, why should they and their readers have to suffer?

[gildea]

OK, look at it like this all I'm saying here is, "the customer is always right" I used to run my own business doing club nights and if I got someone coming up to me a shouting there mouth off I would say... fine, let's address those issues and see if we can't find a way to incorporate what you think, you want these changes, I'll see what I can do, can do that, can't do that...but here's why I can't". A constructive response is fine by me which is why as I said I respected Millar and McNiven fro what they had to say, but if your boss (and in a medium like this the readers really are your "boss" came over and chewed a co-worker out for handing work in late that was going to cause major ramifications for the company would you come over and call him an arsehole loser or would you try to rectify the situation by laying out a decent argument for why it was late thus supporting your friend whilst avoiding BITING THE HAND THAT FEEDS.

I'm not having a go at you gildea and don't want this to be taken that way, so I just wanna say no hard feelings? :up:

I'm just pissed at the sheer level of cheek Hitch is showing here. If comic bbok readers are put off by this that means less sales so his and others job's are then put at risk, he shouldn't be adding to that, he should be seeking resolution.


none at all sir none at all :)

I should point out i do actually agree with what your saying !! :)

[hippy fascist]

none at all sir none at all :)

I should point out i do actually agree with what your saying !! :)

yaay :D

BIG HUGS
http://www.oh100.com/teach/shucaiku/pic/gwmh-0042/big/hug.jpg

[TheCorpulent1]

Why is it that the best artists seem to be the biggest jerks?

[hippy fascist]

Why is it that the best artists seem to be the biggest jerks?

:up::up::up:

[wolvie2020]

To be honest, I didn't see anything geatly offensive about what Hitch said. I think you're going a little to over the top, or reading too hard into his words.

He's just kind of saying stuff, and they're all truths. He's basically saying,

"A bunch of comics are late because Marvel WANTED to wait for Millar and McNiven to tell their story. And seeing as Marvel are getting them to restructure the ENTIRE Marvel universe, and the book is only a month late, is impressive. It's not the worst thing going on in the world."

You know, he saw his friends, (Millar and McNiven,) apologise immensely, only to find his friends still being insulted by loads of whiny fans. So lashed back on behalf of his friends, seeing as they didn't want to.

To be honest, I'm kind of on his side here. I've collected comics for donkeys, and have been in the comic store every week since I was like, 9. I wait for issues, and have something like 3000 comics. I dislike rude creators, but I dislike incredibly rude fan boys/girls more so. Some people can be really disgusting. I think he's aiming his comments more at those people, not people like us.

The fact of it is, yeah, some people need to get a life, and stop wishing bad things on people, just 'cause their book is running late. Go watch the news, go focus your negative energy on people who are ruining our countries, not people trying to entertain us

[hippy fascist]

To be honest, I didn't see anything geatly offensive about what Hitch said. I think you're going a little to over the top, or reading too hard into his words.

He's just kind of saying stuff, and they're all truths. He's basically saying,

"A bunch of comics are late because Marvel WANTED to wait for Millar and McNiven to tell their story. And seeing as Marvel are getting them to restructure the ENTIRE Marvel universe, and the book is only a month late, is impressive. It's not the worst thing going on in the world."

To be honest, he saw his friends, (Millar and McNiven,) apologise immensely, only to find his friends still being insulted by loads of whiny fans. So lashed back on behalf of his friends, seeing as they didn't want to.

To be honest, I'm kind of on his side here. I've collected comics for donkeys, and have been in the comic store every week since I was like, 9. I wait for issues, and have something like 3000 comics. I dislike rude creators, but I dislike incredibly rude fan boys/girls more so. Some people can be really disgusting. I think he's aiming his comments more at those people, not people like us.

The fact of it is, yeah, some people need to get a life, and stop wishing bad things on people, just 'cause their book is running late. Go watch the news, go focus your negatove energy on people who are ruining our countries, not people trying to entertain us

I agree with some of what your saying but we need to get past this idea of you got bad service so put up with it. We pay three dollars a book(1/3-1/2 of which is ads these days) and for that we should be able to expect certain things. Also a lot of the people *****ing were people who don't read civil war and retailers who are taking a financial hit from this. Answer me this, why should someone who reads spidey/f4 regularly but don't read civil war have to go without their MONTHLY books for two months so civil war fans can be kept happy? Also from the point of view of the retailers if someone cut your monthly income down by a third even just for a few months (and possibly cost you a large chunk of your future wages [pissed off customers can sometimes take it out on the retailer you know]) wouldn't you be angry

Ultimately if you get **** service and don't complain you'll keep getting **** service and the reactions are severe but so is the screw up so it kind of balances out.

[TheCorpulent1]

The sophomoric jab at the posters' virginity was unnecessary however you look at it. Like it or not, the guy is a professional artist and he's put his work and, if it becomes an issue, his work ethic up for public scrutiny. If he can't handle that scrutiny, lashing out at the people who buy his work is not the best way to go about things. Not to say, of course, that bashing him on an Internet message board is the best way for the fans to go about things, either.

[GNR]

Here from one of marvel's worst offenders when it comes to delays are the thoughts of Brain Hitch as posted on the millar world forums RE marvels decision to delay pretty much half their current line-up



Why does it not surprise me that an artist on one of marvel's most delayed books of the last few years would chime in with such a response. At least Millar and McNiven had the decency to apologise, this prick's just taking angry fans and baiting them some more.

If I want to come on the internet and have a rant I bloody well will (I haven't posted in that thread yet 'cause they just spend their days licking millars arse) **** Hitch, ultimates just left my pull list for good. I'm not gonna line the pockets of an arsehole who comes online and slags off the very people who PAY HIS WAGES just because we're voicing our displeasure over a colossal case of bad management. I'm done with him :down:cmad::down:cmad::down:cmad:

I know this is a rant but for god's sake have some respect for your fans and let them voice their opinions

Final word: Wanker

Marvel's books are always late.I don't see the need for such a hissy fit.What's ranting on about it going to do anyways?

[hippy fascist]

Marvel's books are always late.I don't see the need for such a hissy fit.What's ranting on about it going to do anyways?

This thread was never about lateness, it's about artists that don't respect their fans/have a go at retailers who are pissed because they might not make rent this month becuase of something completely out of their control. I've dealt with civil war being late, this is solely about the LACK OF RESPECT shown by Hitch

[Fading]

Putting aside the "biting the hand that feeds you" point (since you guys stated it so well), I will say it's ppl in the comic buisness like him that set comics back a bit each time.

For years comic readers have tried to move out of the 'dorky virgin' persona everyone seems to stick us with, then an actual writer says "hey ya, the ppl who read my companies comics and are ticked are dorks that need laid", then it just adds more fuel to the fire. Not a big deal, and most ppl who don't read comics will probably never read it anyway just a thought.

Also wanted to say I agree with being ticked at his attitude, what's with ppl trying to tick off the ppl who purchase their goods anymore. I'm still young, but even I could remember when ppl would practically kiss your ass to keep you coming back, now ppl seem to think the rebel "I could give a rats ass what the customer thinks" attitude is cool, but it's not. It may work in the movies, but when a habitually late comic book artist tells me (well not me directly) that I need to be laid (alrdy have been :) ), that doesn't make me go "Damn he's cool, I wanna buy more, he's a badass", it makes me dislike him and his ego, and everytime I see his name printed in a book it's gonna slowly draw me more and more out of his work. Like Leifeld, his stuff usually is bad (as pointed out in several threads here), but occasionally he can draw something good, he drew a hot looking supergirl, but I subconciously put his name with the pic and suddenly I was looking for reasons not to like it. Same here kinda, didn't know this artists name before tho have seen his work, but now I'm gonna remember him for this.

[GNR]

This thread was never about lateness, it's about artists that don't respect their fans/have a go at retailers who are pissed because they might not make rent this month becuase of something completely out of their control. I've dealt with civil war being late, this is solely about the LACK OF RESPECT shown by Hitch

I don't care if creators are the biggest pricks in the world or not.As long as they put their all into every single page of a book,that's all I need.

Despite the lateness,Hitch has proven this since #1 back in 2001.

[Doc Destruction]

Man, I would give my right arm to be an editor at Marvel right now. I would SO lay the smack down on these elitist pricks before being fired by fat ass for actually DOING MY JOB.

What an assbag. Yet another "creative" punk I can now save money on by never buying their crap.

[Doc Destruction]

Marvel's books are always late.I don't see the need for such a hissy fit.What's ranting on about it going to do anyways?

Ranting? Not much. NOT BUYING CRAP THAT IS RETARDEDLY LATE? Everything.

[Darthphere]

Sorry guys Ultimates 12 is late again. Hitch is too busy defending Marvel's imcompetence on teh messageboards.

[amazingfantasy15]

The fact of it is, yeah, some people need to get a life, and stop wishing bad things on people, just 'cause their book is running late. Go watch the news, go focus your negative energy on people who are ruining our countries, not people trying to entertain us

These are the comments that piss me off, I've never stayed home on a Friday or Saturday night to rant on a message board, I come on this board when I'm bored and have nothing I need to get done at work or bored at home. If I see some news I don't like, I'll comment on it, however, if it's news from someone who makes their living by entertaining me for 10-15 minutes every 3-4 months (in Hitch's case) that pisses me off, I'm not allowed be pissed about it. Screw that! Hitch should not have made that post, sure there are more important things going on in the world and I care about those too, but I'm also not gonna care about those things 24/7, comics are a release from the real world for me, from real world problems. Should this be applied to sports fans too, there's more important things than wasting your time watching sports, maybe I should stop that too, dedicate my whole life to getting laid and solving all the world's problems.

[MyPokerShirt]

It's just one month late. He has a point. Surely you all have lives and can wait an extra month? Where in the bible, the constitution or the geneva convention (which i keep calling the genosha convention... in public) does it say it has to come out every month?? Movies are delayed; books are delayed; house payments are delayed; freaking international peace treaty summits are delayed and people don't kick up this much fuss! It sucks, i know, and Hitch seems to be acting like an *******, but he was clearly replying to arrogant, i-still-live-with-my-mum fans who have no idea what it's like to have an impossible workload with impossible deadlines to meet and high standards or personal integrity to keep.

How many times have we gone over the top and started shouting at each other. He's just human and has just been pissed off. I'd say drop it and close this thread now but i'm gonna get flamed. It's not his book, your beef shouldn't be with him.

[roach]

Where in the bible, the constitution or the geneva convention (which i keep calling the genosha convention... in public) does it say it has to come out every month??

when it says monthly from Marvel

[Doc Destruction]

Funny, I'm 37, live in my own house, have a great job and I have an impossible workload that I'm required to get done EVERY FREAKING DAY.

Hitch can cry me a river. Do your stupid job, you hack...and quit crying to us how tough it is.

[Doc Destruction]

when it says monthly from Marvel

ROFL!

[roach]

I find it funny that while they do admit the books is gonna be late...they all find the time to be on the internet giving excuses

[roach]

ROFL!

im mean it's right there on the posters and cards

[roach]

and while it is a month for CW....it is also impacting all the other books...they too will be delayed until CW 4 comes out...not to mention the new series supposed to be launched

[hippy fascist]

It's just one month late. He has a point. Surely you all have lives and can wait an extra month? Where in the bible, the constitution or the geneva convention (which i keep calling the genosha convention... in public) does it say it has to come out every month?? Movies are delayed; books are delayed; house payments are delayed; freaking international peace treaty summits are delayed and people don't kick up this much fuss! It sucks, i know, and Hitch seems to be acting like an *******, but he was clearly replying to arrogant, i-still-live-with-my-mum fans who have no idea what it's like to have an impossible workload with impossible deadlines to meet and high standards or personal integrity to keep.

How many times have we gone over the top and started shouting at each other. He's just human and has just been pissed off. I'd say drop it and close this thread now but i'm gonna get flamed. It's not his book, your beef shouldn't be with him.

How many ****ing times! This is not about civil war, It's about hitch's attitude, end of story!

[TheCorpulent1]

and while it is a month for CW....it is also impacting all the other books...they too will be delayed until CW 4 comes out...not to mention the new series supposed to be launched
Slott's new '07 series went from a January to a March debut date already.

[Xofenroht]

Oh seriously guys...CHILL OUT! It's not like his last name is Kubert or Romita. He's not that great of an artist to begin with nor does he really have the respect of the fans as some comicbook great. I could see if this was some writer/illustrator who's made awesome contributions to the industry, but it isn't. It's JUST Bryan Hitch!
Who cares what he has to say? He wishes people would care about his late work. Nothing he says about comicbook fans as a whole will even phase the public opinion of the comicbook community. It would take someone they know, like Stan Lee, Gaiman, Moore, or Miller to really make an impact like that.
Maybe if Alex Maleev or Greg Land said something I MIGHT give to spits of scat...

[MyPokerShirt]

when it says monthly from Marvel

yeah... and marvel changed it so it'll be out NEXT month. quite honestly what do you want from them? You're all pissed it's delayed: me too. But what do you want?? The people involved apologised. They gave a reason which - even if you don't like it - is the reason for the delay!! I don't get the *****ing and whining about something that cannot be helped. It happens all the freakin time. I understand moaning about crap like the Other, but c'mon.

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh seriously guys...CHILL OUT! It's not like his last name is Kubert or Romita. He's not that great of an artist to begin with nor does he really have the respect of the fans as some comicbook great. I could see if this was some writer/illustrator who's made awesome contributions to the industry, but it isn't. It's JUST Bryan Hitch!
Who cares what he has to say? He wishes people would care about his late work. Nothing he says about comicbook fans as a whole will even phase the public opinion of the comicbook community. It would take someone they know, like Stan Lee, Gaiman, Moore, or Miller to really make an impact like that.
Maybe if Alex Maleev or Greg Land said something I MIGHT give to spits of scat... Many would argue that The Ultimates and The Authority are great contributions to the comic industry.

[Xofenroht]

Many would argue that The Ultimates and The Authority are great contributions to the comic industry.


Goddammit...

...he does do The Ultimates doesn't he? And I really was thinking about picking up The Authority. Well, screw everything I just said.

Flip him the bird and move on. No need to be upset.

Edit: And don't forget to give him his busta' card either.

[Doc Destruction]

yeah... and marvel changed it so it'll be out NEXT month. quite honestly what do you want from them? You're all pissed it's delayed: me too. But what do you want?? The people involved apologised. They gave a reason which - even if you don't like it - is the reason for the delay!! I don't get the *****ing and whining about something that cannot be helped. It happens all the freakin time. I understand moaning about crap like the Other, but c'mon.

You DO know that "it happens all the time" IS THE PROBLEM, RIGHT?

[MyPokerShirt]

Funny, I'm 37, live in my own house, have a great job and I have an impossible workload that I'm required to get done EVERY FREAKING DAY.

Hitch can cry me a river. Do your stupid job, you hack...and quit crying to us how tough it is.

well done, you compared a workload that you indicated can be finished in a day to an artistic workload that is monthly and incomparable to anything that isn't art. well done, how relevant :rolleyes:

Hitch sounds like he's pissed off at those "same 6-8 guys" (Dan Slott and Bendis interview) who DON'T have lives and NEED to lose their virginity. The same guys that hound creators like Hitch because they're jealous of his talent and ability to break into the comics business through... guess what? years of HARD WORK. The same guys that are pleased they got this reaction so now they can get people like you on their sides. People like you with lives but very short tempers.

[Doc Destruction]

Artists can break down how many pages they can do in a day. Don't be dumb on purpose. If I can schedule my time to make things happen, so can they. If the artists can't handle the schedules, get different artists. If the artist isn't the problem, sack the person who didn't make enough lead time.

This isn't rocket science.

[TheCorpulent1]

Work is work. Obviously getting a comic done in a month can be done, since many artists do it.

Edit: Which DD just said himself above me. :o

[roach]

yeah... and marvel changed it so it'll be out NEXT month. quite honestly what do you want from them? You're all pissed it's delayed: me too. But what do you want?? The people involved apologised. They gave a reason which - even if you don't like it - is the reason for the delay!! I don't get the *****ing and whining about something that cannot be helped. It happens all the freakin time. I understand moaning about crap like the Other, but c'mon.

So basicly they "apologized" and since they said they were sorry we have to accept it.
Again only in comics....

[MyPokerShirt]

You DO know that "it happens all the time" IS THE PROBLEM, RIGHT?

Then why the surpised reactions and anger when it happens. I think with lazy but brilliant artists/writers and artists/writers whose work is of such a high standard that theyre delayed no matter how hard they work that this sort of thing is inevitable. we should open up a vote thread:

preference:
civil war on time but with second artist, possibly compromising the standard of art?
or
civil war delayed just one month and standard kept up?




You're argument doesnt stand up! You say there are delays all the time and then you say lots of artists get their art done on time!! There is such a thing as context! You cannot say one work where somebody's simplistic style is in on time month in month out is comparable to CW art, with all those heroes on the page and the high standard that's been set.
There ARE delays all the time and there IS art released on time all the time, but every project is different and i think you should cut these guys some slack, is all. Oh and Hippy fascist don't tell me it's not about the delays when you know that's what everybody else really wants to talk about and is the root of this argument.

[Doc Destruction]

I would easily take the first option.

Nothing wrong with a good guest artist. I remember when they even hyped it that way.

[roach]

Hitch sounds like he's pissed off at those "same 6-8 guys" (Dan Slott and Bendis interview) who DON'T have lives and NEED to lose their virginity. The same guys that hound creators like Hitch because they're jealous of his talent and ability to break into the comics business through... guess what? years of HARD WORK. The same guys that are pleased they got this reaction so now they can get people like you on their sides. People like you with lives but very short tempers.


What if the SHH boards went down right now. A day goes by maybe two and a message comes across the main page saying that this happens all the time and look it happened to CS and stop whining because he's doing the best job and you all are jealous of him......would you not have the right to whine

[roach]

Then why the surpised reactions and anger when it happens.

because while it does happen all the time...IT SHOULDNT HAPPEN AT ALL

[Xofenroht]

I really only think it's a problem because it's effecting other titles.

[amazingfantasy15]

Then why the surpised reactions and anger when it happens. I think with lazy but brilliant artists/writers and artists/writers whose work is of such a high standard that theyre delayed no matter how hard they work that this sort of thing is inevitable. we should open up a vote thread:

preference:
civil war on time but with second artist, possibly compromising the standard of art?
or
civil war delayed just one month and standard kept up?

The second question isn't technically correct, Civil War #4 is delayed one month, Civil War #5 won't come out until two months later, making it three months late. If you think the same delays won't happen with 6 and 7 you're a fool. Also these delays are now impacting other books like ASM and FF and delaying books from being launching. Having said that I'll take option one or option three, just the artist the lead time he needs before soliciting the series or set up fill-in artists that can compliment the artist's style. Add a fill-in story on the regular series before your civil war tie-ins start too.

[MyPokerShirt]

I would easily take the first option.

Nothing wrong with a good guest artist. I remember when they even hyped it that way.
and that's your preference, that's fair enough. I think now's a good time to say wasn't it millar and mcnivens decision not to have a guest artist and have it one month late instead? they obviously thought more people would chose the second option. meh.

[TheCorpulent1]

It's Marvel's decision, actually. They believe it'll sell better with the promised creators, even if it's late, rather than fill-ins, especially in the trade market, which is coming to dominate sales concerns in comic publishing.
So basicly they "apologized" and since they said they were sorry we have to accept it.
Again only in comics....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/thecorpulent1/DonKing.jpg

[roach]

I really only think it's a problem because it's effecting other titles.

exactly

[roach]

and that's your preference, that's fair enough. I think now's a good time to say wasn't it millar and mcnivens decision not to have a guest artist and have it one month late instead? they obviously thought more people would chose the second option. meh.


No it was Tom Brevoort's decision.....Millar found out when we did the issue wasnt going out on time(according to his posts at Newsarama). In fact they thought that was what Marvel was gonna do...bring in a fill-in artist

[MyPokerShirt]

option three, just the artist the lead time he needs before soliciting the series or set up fill-in artists that can compliment the artist's style. Add a fill-in story on the regular series before your civil war tie-ins start too.
guess so. but with the industry the way it is, it needed to be a summer event really. so once they had the idea they had to go with it as quick as they could. you highlight the first great point i've heard as to this being something to moan about though: shouldn't mcniven have asked for more time months ago and thus they could have put the delay on the solicitations a while back? hmmm, i'll give you the announcement itself seems a bit rushed. As if mcniven showed up in the office on monday and went "oh yeah, i cant get it done in time. sorry"

[roach]

guess so. but with the industry the way it is, it needed to be a summer event really. so once they had the idea they had to go with it as quick as they could. you highlight the first great point i've heard as to this being something to moan about though: shouldn't mcniven have asked for more time months ago and thus they could have put the delay on the solicitations a while back? hmmm, i'll give you the announcement itself seems a bit rushed. As if mcniven showed up in the office on monday and went "oh yeah, i cant get it done in time. sorry"


no it was rushed to steal IC#7's thunder

[MyPokerShirt]

No it was Tom Brevoort's decision.

you sure? do you have a quote?? anyway, im gonna go watch some japanese manga (not pornographic, i swear). try to go easy on my posts while im not around...

[Doc Destruction]

No it was Tom Brevoort's decision.....Millar found out when we did the issue wasnt going out on time(according to his posts at Newsarama). In fact they thought that was what Marvel was gonna do...bring in a fill-in artist

Yes, and in spectacular stupidity fashion, Breevort said "fill-in artists suck". SO HIRE A BETTER FILL-IN ARTIST, MORON.

[Doc Destruction]

no it was rushed to steal IC#7's thunder

Bingo.

[roach]

you sure? do you have a quote?? anyway, im gonna go watch some japanese manga (not pornographic, i swear). try to go easy on my posts while im not around...

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=80780

[roach]

Bingo.

there was no build up to CW..it just happened and all of a sudden we are expected to believe all the mischaracterizations

[Xofenroht]

guess so. but with the industry the way it is, it needed to be a summer event really. so once they had the idea they had to go with it as quick as they could.

So what, they could catch a season? Is Earth slated to run out of Summers anytime soon? They could have waited for this event and so given every writer ample time to get their characters and storylines ready and/or wrapped up in order to support this large-Marvel Universe-spanning event. I'm glad that Civil-War isn't consuming all of my time and suspense. Thank Vertigo there's a "Fables" and final issue of the "Neverwhere" mini to await.

[Xofenroht]

you sure? do you have a quote?? anyway, im gonna go watch some japanese manga (not pornographic, i swear). try to go easy on my posts while im not around...

Ummm...anime?

[Xofenroht]

there was no build up to CW..it just happened and all of a sudden we are expected to believe all the mischaracterizations

Thank you, because I almost said that but didn't because I knew someone sensible would.

[Doc Destruction]

there was no build up to CW..it just happened and all of a sudden we are expected to believe all the mischaracterizations

I SAID THE SAME DAMN THING! I made a post on it and got RAILED for it.

Thank you, I thought I was losing my damn mind.

[hippy fascist]

Work is work. Obviously getting a comic done in a month can be done, since many artists do it.

Edit: Which DD just said himself above me. :o

exactly, if it's so hard how does bagley manage to get two issues of asm out a month?

[TheCorpulent1]

Yes, and in spectacular stupidity fashion, Breevort said "fill-in artists suck". SO HIRE A BETTER FILL-IN ARTIST, MORON.
I think the gist of that comment was actually that using a fill-in artist breaks the narrative flow, since different artists tell a story in different ways.

[PWN3R]

Here from one of marvel's worst offenders when it comes to delays are the thoughts of Brain Hitch as posted on the millar world forums RE marvels decision to delay pretty much half their current line-up

BRYAN HITCH!:mad:







It's also their CHOICE. Marvel had the choice to get a fill-in or even a little help. Mark and Steve both expected it by this stage and were okay with it. NOBODY on the creative end of MCW asked Marvel to do what they have done. This came from Marvel because of how they feel about it and because THEY want Mark and Steve together until the end. McN isn't drastically behind and they gave him some breathing room to sneak past the finish. Great. Hoorah.

On a world scale of events this really shouldn't register on your give-a-****-o'metres. Why not all go out and lose your virginity or something?

Hitchy



haha! I love Bryan Hitch, I dont care about the delays, the guy's art is freakin magical.

[Doc Destruction]

I think the gist of that comment was actually that using a fill-in artist breaks the narrative flow, since different artists tell a story in different ways.

Which is what happens when the talent runs the show. This isn't an art museum, it's a comic book industry. Have one or two REALLY good fill-in guys ready at all times, then.

[Doc Destruction]

Take it to private messages, or roach..just give up. He's not getting it.

[gildea]

let me explain my post since you obviously didnt get it. Civil War and New Avengers are the best selling books out there(quality otherwise). Amazing Spider-man is also a book that is up there. By postponing these books comic book stores that would otherwise benefit from these sales boosts dont get that critical dough(since i am assuming you know that comic book shops are an Endangered Species). Yes there are other books to sell(and for you to assume that all I would sell is CW and NA dropps your credibility) but none sell at their level.

To be honest if your business is in such dire straits that you need certain issues to come out on certain dates when you have a whole shop full of comics then you're running it pretty poorly.

[roach]

*please lord i pray for them to have understanding*

[The Cleric]

thats what i said... might as well closed that shop down

[hippy fascist]

or another way to look at it is that regular titles that sell well allow comic shops to take a chance on low-expectation indies knowing that they have the money from the top sellers to fall back on.

It's like the music industry, much as I hate poppy crap, because of it's vast sales record companies and music shops can then stock decent lower profile music for proper fans.

To say that comic book shops don't need the likes of fantastic four and amazing spider-man is just naive. Most of them are on the breadline as it is so they rely on high profile events like civil war to provide much needed revenue injections that will help with slow periods later in the year. Also comic book FANS are a dying breed. Civil war was bringing in new readers but now, those people will find other things to spend their money on since they aren't as commited as the rest of us. We the readers may not feel the repurcussions straight away but as more and more comic book shops close down every month due to dwindling sales, events like civil war are one of the few things breathing life into a dying industry. That's why this is such a colosal **** up and that why we SHOULD be pissed.

You or I may be willing to wait three months between issues of ultimates, someone who is just getting started will say **** this and just go buy a video game instead and poof there goes another potential customer.

[gildea]

For a comic shop to "need" the sales of CW on a particular day to survive simply means they are running their business badly. Simple as that.

If you've been following the sales charts over the past few years you'll notice the about 5 years ago the top selling books where around 100000 to get to the top of the charts. Now days everybook in the top 15 or so sells these number as such retailers are in a much stronger position.

Sure civil war is the money pot for them but If you rely on big sellers like that coming along then you're a bad business man (ie what if civil war flopped in sales?)

[gildea]

Most of them are on the breadline as it is so they rely on high profile events like civil war to provide much needed revenue injections that will help with slow periods later in the year. Also comic book FANS are a dying breed.

I disagree. Most comic retailers are smart minded buisness people who are not in need of CW to come out on a particular day to survive. These are people who survived the market crash---they know what they are doing.

And as I pointed out comic sales are a lot higher now than 5 years ago.

[hippy fascist]

Most people who own LCS's don't do it to become rich, they do it because they love comics. Good business is shipping loads of mainstream stuff and saying **** the indies they won't sell. Is this what you want? How about this, if it wasn't for monster sellers and crossovers comic book stores wouldn't have taken a chance on the likes of preacher or invincible. Do you want books like this to die out just so you can be right?

[roach]

or another way to look at it is that regular titles that sell well allow comic shops to take a chance on low-expectation indies knowing that they have the money from the top sellers to fall back on.
It's like the music industry, much as I hate poppy crap, because of it's vast sales record companies and music shops can then stock decent lower profile music for proper fans.

To say that comic book shops don't need the likes of fantastic four and amazing spider-man is just naive. Most of them are on the breadline as it is so they rely on high profile events like civil war to provide much needed revenue injections that will help with slow periods later in the year.

go ask you LCS owner how this has affected him

[roach]

I disagree. Most comic retailers are smart minded buisness people who are not in need of CW to come out on a particular day to survive. These are people who survived the market crash---they know what they are doing.

And as I pointed out comic sales are a lot higher now than 5 years ago.


I dont know how it is in Scotland but in the US comic shops are a dying breed...already in my town 3 have closed down

[PWN3R]

So according to you Hippy, once Civil War is over, all LCS's sales will plummet?:confused:

[gildea]

Most people who own LCS's don't do it to become rich, they do it because they love comics. Good business is shipping loads of mainstream stuff and saying **** the indies they won't sell.

Indies do sell, they have a smaller market share but demand is there for them.
Good comic stores cater to BOTH markets. I'm not going to feel sorry because someones "comic shop owning dream" went up in smoke because they ran it badly. Comics may not make you rich but you've ONLY yourself to blame if they make you poor.

Is this what you want? How about this, if it wasn't for monster sellers and crossovers comic book stores wouldn't have taken a chance on the likes of preacher or invincible. Do you want books like this to die out just so you can be right?

Preacher sells loads in trade regardless i repeat good comic stores cater to BOTH markets.

A brief example.
Imagine two stores A and B.
A caters only to maintstream stuff like CW
B caters for everything a comic fan wants.

Most comic fans pic up an indie comic or two they are all going to use shop B to pick up both mainstream and indie books to avoid 2 trips.

[roach]

http://www.comixexperience.com/savblog/2006/08/not-exactly-hat-trick-hibbs-on-late.html

since no one will believe me

[gildea]

I dont know how it is in Scotland but in the US comic shops are a dying breed...already in my town 3 have closed down

And yet industry sales are rising. (and manga is HUGE)

No sympathy here.

If the closed down they were either badly run or shouldn't have been there in the first place.

[gildea]

http://www.comixexperience.com/savblog/2006/08/not-exactly-hat-trick-hibbs-on-late.html

since no one will believe me

roach noone is saying it won't affect retailers. (Though that post is slightly incorrect it says the money earned is gone, thats completely incorrect, it's just coming later.)

Only that it won't put them out of business.

[hippy fascist]

Indies do sell, they have a smaller market share but demand is there for them.
Good comic stores cater to BOTH markets. I'm not going to feel sorry because someones "comic shop owning dream" went up in smoke because they ran it badly. Comics may not make you rich but you've ONLY yourself to blame if they make you poor.



Preacher sells loads in trade regardless i repeat good comic stores cater to BOTH markets.

A brief example.
Imagine two stores A and B.
A caters only to maintstream stuff like CW
B caters for everything a comic fan wants.

Most comic fans pic up an indie comic or two they are all going to use shop B to pick up both mainstream and indie books to avoid 2 trips.

Yes but I'm not sure if you're aware of this but preacher started out as floppys, and because it became so legendary among comic fans it made it to the edn of it run and is now collected in trades, my point was that if owners hadn't taken a chance on it it would have died out after one or two issues. Without the comic in the first place there would be no trades.
Go on ebay and try to find a copy of preacher number one in good condition...that's right, you can't(and if you do it's going for hundreds of dollars!). Why, beacuse HARDLY ANYONE BOUGHT IT. It takes time for new writers and high risk books like that to gain momentum, time paid for by regular high volume sellers. Not only that, civil war war is not the only problem. The other, secret wars, house of M. Marvel has been doing a series of **** crossovers recently(yes the other is a crossover since it was told through 3[or was it 4?] different spidey titles) Civil war was finally starting to make up for that but now marvel have gone and undone all that good work.

This is the final nail in the coffin that proves that maybe the people saying marvel can't handle big events anymore were right. This is not just the main book being late, there are several other factors at play here. You need to step back and see the big picture. (going for a record on overused cliches here!:D)

[gildea]

Yes but I'm not sure if you're aware of this but preacher started out as floppys, and because it became so legendary among comic fans it made it to the edn of it run and is now collected in trades, my point was that if owners hadn't taken a chance on it it would have died out after one or two issues. Without the comic in the first place there would be no trades.

Of course I'm aware of it. Not sure entirely what it has to do with CW delays putting a shop out of business though. Your argument was saying that I implied retailers should just chase the high selling comics I countered saying NO retailers should cater to BOTH the big sellers and indies because that is how a good shop is run, I then implied in the long run this makes GOOD BUISNESS SENSE because stuff like preacher DOES BETTER IN TRADE and good retailers recognise this.


Go on ebay and try to find a copy of preacher number one in good condition...that's right, you can't(and if you do it's going for hundreds of dollars!). Why, beacuse HARDLY ANYONE BOUGHT IT.


http://cgi.ebay.com/PREACHER-1-66-COMPLETE-RUN-MANY-ENNIS-DILLON-EXTRAS_W0QQitemZ150020856212QQihZ005QQcategoryZ395 3QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Currently sitting at $160 dollars for a complete run with lots of other stuff.
Not relevant to the topic in anyway but never mind.


This is the final nail in the coffin that proves that maybe the people saying marvel can't handle big events anymore were right. This is not just the main book being late, there are several other factors at play here. You need to step back and see the big picture. (going for a record on overused cliches here!:D)

I am.
You seem to equate running a good comic shop with ignoring quality indie titles. I didn't make this distinction. All i've said is if your comic shop goes out of businss because of what amounts to a 1 month (then 2 month) delay on a few comics then you are running it badly. Your focusing too much on short term stuff (like I suggest bad retailers do)


Really though what did I say that made you think I suggest retailers shouldn't support indie comics? Could you find me a quote?

[Mr. Green]

The sophomoric jab at the posters' virginity was unnecessary however you look at it.
Unnecessary? Maybe. Hillarious? Most definately. :) :up:

I think some comic fans need to relax and have a sense of humor about things. Hitch has a good point. It really isn't a big deal in the big scheme of things. At least not to the point of going off on how crappy Millar is and so on.

I think Hitch was just sticking up for one of his friends and putting things in perspective a little. No big deal. I wouldn't freak out and start burning my Ultimates collection or anything.

[Darthphere]

Unnecessary? Maybe. Hillarious? Most definately. :) :up:

I think some comic fans need to relax and have a sense of humor about things. Hitch has a good point. It really isn't a big deal in the big scheme of things. At least not to the point of going off on how crappy Millar is and so on.

I think Hitch was just sticking up for one of his friends and putting things in perspective a little. No big deal. I wouldn't freak out and start burning my Ultimates collection or anything.


Good attitude, let Marvel and DC **** all over you and still give them your money.:down

[gildea]

Good attitude, let Marvel and DC **** all over you and still give them your money.:down

Conversely though just because we give marvel our money doesn't give us the right to **** all over them and not expect a reaction.

[ShadowBoxing]

Guy: And that's when I told all those stupid kids, hey how about you guys lose your virginity!

Girl: Wait, what who did you tell it to?

Guy: Oh babe, these snotty message board posters, don't you hate them.

Girl: Wait, message board...what?

...wait what do you do for a living

Guy: Oh baby, my name is Bryan, and I draw comic books like Ultimates. So how about you and I go back to my room and I'll show the big pen I draw with....c'mon

Girl: Wait you draw comics....geez, that's it I'm leaving.

Guy: But...but...my virginity.

[gildea]

I thought they were unproffessional and shouldn't have been said.

However they are nowhere near as bad as the abuse many comics pros take online daily, sometimes only for writing a book that a person doesn't like. As such I think many people who complain about hitches comments are being hypocritical.

Still doesn't mean I agree with their existance.

[gildea]

Guy: And that's when I told all those stupid kids, hey how about you guys lose your virginity!

Girl: Wait, what who did you tell it to?

Guy: Oh babe, these snotty message board posters, don't you hate them.

Girl: Wait, message board...what?

...wait what do you do for a living

Guy: Oh baby, my name is Bryan, and I draw comic books like Ultimates. So how about you and I go back to my room and I'll show the big pen I draw with....c'mon

Girl: Wait you draw comics....geez, that's it I'm leaving.

Guy: But...but...my virginity.


To be fair in a post after this talking about the comment hitch said he needed to loose his virginity also.

[Grim Goblin]

Good attitude, let Marvel and DC **** all over you and still give them your money.:down

But...if we don't, we'll never have those complete runs that are so more important than our self-respect :rolleyes:

You just hate the change in the industry :O

[Darthphere]

But...if we don't, we'll never have those complete runs that are so more important than our self-respect :rolleyes:

You just hate the change in the industry :O


No, what I hate is people toeing the company line. Theyre not giving out these comics for free, your ****ing paying for them. If they say monthly, you ****ing expect an issue every month. Were the customers, theyre the service, they should be bending over backwards for us, not the other way around.

[Sentry2005]

No, what I hate is people toeing the company line. Theyre not giving out these comics for free, your ****ing paying for them. If they say monthly, you ****ing expect an issue every month. Were the customers, theyre the service, they should be bending over backwards for us, not the other way around.

You're right. Unfortuantly, people will say "Damn the company!" and "Screw you guys, i'm not buying your comics any more!", but ultimately they will. And then they'll complain again the next time its late. It's why people like Joe Q don't give a ****. It's why, generally speaking, the world doesn't change that much, because for all the noise people make, they very rarely act :(

[Darthphere]

You're right. Unfortuantly, people will say "Damn the company!" and "Screw you guys, i'm not buying your comics any more!", but ultimately they will. And then they'll complain again the next time its late. It's why people like Joe Q don't give a ****. It's why, generally speaking, the world doesn't change that much, because for all the noise people make, they very rarely act :(


I really dont care about delayed comics, I dont, Wonder Woman is delayed but ill wait it out. Its the fact that Marvel shouldve been more upfront about this, DC told us why Wonder Woman was late ahead of time. Then, Marvel and its people come out with this holier than thou attitude, like theyre doing us a favor delaying the comic and Hitch told us all to lose our virginity, been there done that. Thats what pissed me off.

[roach]

I really dont care about delayed comics, I dont, Wonder Woman is delayed but ill wait it out. Its the fact that Marvel shouldve been more upfront about this, DC told us why Wonder Woman was late ahead of time. Then, Marvel and its people come out with this holier than thou attitude, like theyre doing us a favor delaying the comic and Hitch told us all to lose our virginity, been there done that. Thats what pissed me off.


this is one of the major reasons why I dropped Marvel. THEY NEED US...WE DONT NEED THEM. However some of us feel that it is the other way around. Marvel could ***** in a comic and some people would try to call it the best comic ever.

[Grim Goblin]

No, what I hate is people toeing the company line. Theyre not giving out these comics for free, your ****ing paying for them. If they say monthly, you ****ing expect an issue every month. Were the customers, theyre the service, they should be bending over backwards for us, not the other way around.

Actually, I agree 100%. Guess my sarcasm wasn't clear enough :confused:

[Darthphere]

Actually, I agree 100%. Guess my sarcasm wasn't clear enough :confused:


No, it wasnt.

[gildea]

this is one of the major reasons why I dropped Marvel. THEY NEED US...WE DONT NEED THEM. However some of us feel that it is the other way around. Marvel could ***** in a comic and some people would try to call it the best comic ever.

This is what it really comes down to.

I myself want comics with consistant art so i'll wait for the ultimates

Roach wants his comics on time so he won't wait. (not trying to imply that all comics on time have inconsistant art btw)

If everyone was as sensible as roach we would see a lot less late books if thats what we want.

[Xofenroht]

First of all, in defense of "roach", there's more than Civil War on the line here. Every tie-in title is delayed aswell. Considering the crossover scale of Civil War, that does take a crucial chunk out of the sales a retailer would make. Civil War, Civil War: Front Line, New Avengers, Amazing Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Wolverine etc. And those are just the ones I read. I'm not even mentioning Thunderbolts and those that are scheduled to spin out as a result of Civil War like events in Cap and Iron Man to follow. The first titles I mentioned alone are titles that happen to sell quite well. Civil War in itself is a big deal especially now that Thor has shown up. Thor has shown his face in Civil War, that alone will bring more customers in. So yes, roach, I understand what you're saying and agree with you 100%.
As a fan, I dread the moment all of those titles come out together. That's alot to have to shove out in a short span of time when you take into consideration everything else I'm getting pulled plus the TPB's I was planning to get.
I'm not kidding when I say this delay screws everything up. You might say I need a life, but then where is my booze and illegal substance money going to come from? You mean I actually have to pick and choose? No one likes sober guys at drinking parties.

[Darthphere]

This is what it really comes down to.

I myself want comics with consistant art so i'll wait for the ultimates

Roach doesn't so he won't.

If everyone was as sensible as roach we would see a lot less late books if thats what we want.


I dont mind delays as ive said, but I want them to be upfront about them. Were the customers, they should say "hey we ****ed up, were a little slow, were sorry, we'll make it up to you guys later" when they first found out there were going to be delays, not the day before.

[Xofenroht]

I wonder how Marvel would feel if we all as a fan base decided to wait a few years more before we bought the Civil War stuff they're putting out. Haha...

[roach]

This is what it really comes down to.

I myself want comics with consistant art so i'll wait for the ultimates

Roach wants his comics on time so he won't wait. (not trying to imply that all comics on time have inconsistant art btw)

If everyone was as sensible as roach we would see a lot less late books if thats what we want.


exactly...however this late comic is impacting a lot of other comics.
My views are if you are hired to put out a monthly comic then you should do just that.....anything short is a failure of doing your job. Yes I know things happen and things pop up but to me this seemed like Marvel grabbed a popular but slow artist to handle a high profile job and no one questioned his ability to be on time.

[Darthphere]

I actually agree with Tom B's comments about the end of monthly comics, cool, so solicit accordingly in the future, its that easy.

[amazingfantasy15]

Unnecessary? Maybe. Hillarious? Most definately. :) :up:

I think some comic fans need to relax and have a sense of humor about things. Hitch has a good point. It really isn't a big deal in the big scheme of things. At least not to the point of going off on how crappy Millar is and so on.

See this is what pisses me off most, the oh, it's just a late comic book, no big deal in the great scheme of things. Comic book readers aren't allowing to b*tch about the things that bother them. Let's take another example, this year's Chicago Cubs, there are many people in the city that are b*tching up a storm about their performance, wanting upper management fired and everything because they tried of getting the same old song and dance. However, if you take the comic book reader approach to this, people shouldn't be b*tching because really it's just a game, it shouldn't matter so much, we should care about the war in Iraq, terrorism, getting laid, not about a stupid baseball team. Yet, you never get that, because for some reason, we realize baseball fans can do more than just focus on baseball, comic fans can't, we only care if a book we want is late, nothing else in the world matters until this is fixed. I'm sick of the double standard, I can care that the Cubs suck, but I can't care that a comic book I'd like to read isn't coming out on time?

[Doc Destruction]

I have news...if someone I buy product for screws up, and then they call me a virgin loser with no life, they aren't getting my money anymore.

[Darthphere]

I dont buy Ultimates anyway, he just gave me another reason not to.

[Xofenroht]

I dont buy Ultimates anyway, he just gave me another reason not to.

Next time I see Hitch, I'm going to tell him how paying that 3 bucks for his book kept an extra gallon out of my gas tank and chicks hate the "I don't have enough gas" excuse.

[Doc Destruction]

It isn't nonsense. It's bad business practice that you eat like crap with a silver spoon and think it tastes wonderful. Someone around here is wrong. Give you a hint, starts with C and ends in leric.

[Darthphere]

It isn't nonsense. It's bad business practice that you eat like crap with a silver spoon and think it tastes wonderful. Someone around here is wrong. Give you a hint, starts with C and ends in leric.


Choleric?:confused:

[roach]

calm down guys Im not riled up or anything....if anything I see Cleric as a challenge

[Dread]

Why is it that the best artists seem to be the biggest jerks?
Simple. Treat someone like they're hot ****, that they can do no wrong, that they're totally irreplaceable and that without them, the company would be in a poorer place and never recover, and they tend to ACT like they're hot ****, who are totally irreplaceable, who can do no wrong, and without them, the company would be in a poorer place.

It's true for artists, writers, and people in general. Inflate their ego's, and you get inflated ego's. You reap what you sow.

[PWN3R]

I thought Hitch's comment was funny too. I love the guy put he should realize:

1. We(the readers) pay our money that we work for, to get these books. It is no longer a cheap hooby. Comics are expensive, I spend way too much money on this crap, but you know what? I like it.

2. When you spend money on a product that is suppose to come out every month, then I see no reason why it should not come out every month. Hundreds of titles are always on time, so what gives you/others the right to be late? If they are comic book artists, then that is their profession, get to work you lazy bums!:mad:

3. De-grading your fans is not smart. And if you're in that bad of a mood to people you have never even seen, than I feel for you friends and family Hitch.:(



But your art is sexy.:O

[Doc Destruction]

$100 says cleric IS Slim31.

[Ben Urich]

Ultimates is a ****ty book anyway.
Still, on the *******-o-meter, John Byrne has this guy beat. :o

[hippy fascist]

:up: Swearing at strangers (whether it is censored or not) is not typically polite.

Though, I'm sure you (or some other "new" user) will just show up and accuse me of bringing up old ****.

LOL :woot: :up:

Right, can someone make a thread for cleric/slim31 and leaguer to take pot shot's at each other. Now that I'd read!

[SonOfCthulhu]

Ultimates is a ****ty book anyway.
Still, on the *******-o-meter, John Byrne has this guy beat. :o

Can someone point me to what John Byrne did that makes him equal to Hitler. I haven't read comics since the 90's so anytime his name is brought up, I always wonder WTF happened.

[Xofenroht]

Can someone point me to what John Byrne did that makes him equal to Hitler. I haven't read comics since the 90's so anytime his name is brought up, I always wonder WTF happened.

I really don't know what it was, I'd like to know too actually.

Nice name by the way. Lovecraft is a genius in my opinion.

[hippy fascist]

Unless of course you're a comic book store owner...:rolleyes:

[BrianWilly]

I think Hitch's comments were incredibly inappropriate. I can understand him defending the lateness; he works for Marvel and Marvel's not about to apologize for anything, so that comes as no surprise. But personally attacking people and that whole bit about losing your virginity was just uncalled-for.

[hippy fascist]

I think Hitch's comments were incredibly inappropriate. I can understand him defending the lateness; he works for Marvel and Marvel's not about to apologize for anything, so that comes as no surprise. But personally attacking people and that whole bit about losing your virginity was just uncalled-for.

:up:

Finally someone realises that this thread was about Hitch's comments rather than just another thread about the delays!

[hippy fascist]

http://www.bryanhitch.com/

hehe

[iloveclones]

Can someone point me to what John Byrne did that makes him equal to Hitler. I haven't read comics since the 90's so anytime his name is brought up, I always wonder WTF happened.


Here it is in a nutshell: He speaks his mind. When public figures do it, they're a-holes. When anonymous internet virgins do it, they're "voicing their opinion."

[SonOfCthulhu]

Lovecraft is a genius in my opinion. :up: :)

Thanks.

And I agree that this really is a bad way to repay the comic shop owners. Marvel's editors need to a better job of standing behind their delivery dates.

[Fading]

It's just one month late. He has a point. Surely you all have lives and can wait an extra month? Where in the bible, the constitution or the geneva convention (which i keep calling the genosha convention... in public) does it say it has to come out every month?? Movies are delayed; books are delayed; house payments are delayed; freaking international peace treaty summits are delayed and people don't kick up this much fuss! It sucks, i know, and Hitch seems to be acting like an *******, but he was clearly replying to arrogant, onna get flamed.

A little late but wanted to comment on this, and there is a big difference. A certain director may only make one movie a year, comics come out once a month, some writers/artists work on several at a time, so let's say one artist works on 4 comics a month making it roughly 1 a week. This can't be compared to a movie that comes out late because a movie has far more details and much more that goes onto it, one part doesn't work and a whole movie may need to be re-arranged. A comic on the other hand is more akin to a weekly TV series, and this overall is like every other episode of Lost being a week or two late after it premiers. The TV fans would be ticked, and most would watch it less and less causing overall ratings to fall, and if the maker or director or whatever came out and said "How about instead of waiting for the new episode you all go get laid", there'd be a backlash (and possibly cause it's cancellation in the long run).

Marvel is a buisness, when it delivers its products late often, that is bad buisness and will only hurt it. When ppl like him insult the fans who lash out, it doesn't resolve anything but to tick off and rile up the fans who lash out even more. If ppl start to know marvel by it's lateness and smart ass employess that will hurt it, even if a late comic is hardly a big thing. If I went to a local McDonalds and everytime I ordered anything it was 10 mins late and the cashier said crap to me when I asked if it was almost done, I'd start going to Burger King.


Edit- Also this is what's hurt other companies. Look at Mcfarlane's group, while I never followed anything but spawn, they were basically a lot of young talent that left other comic book companies to start their own. At the start it was great, but over time with all the uppity 'creative' artists all grouped together making their own deadlines and so on, books became later and later. I've heard a lot of ppl complain about that, and you hardly hear about them anymore, where as once they could have been the third huge company rivaling Marvel and DC. Marvel for the most part has been good about releases, but if they start letting ppl getting their work in late, then giving smart ass remarks about it it'll slowly become acceptable. Holding a great company to it's own standard isn't over reacting, when a product allows little things to happen and slip ups to occur they only hurt themselves and their product. The fans buy it, and as the customers they have the right to complain when they there's problems with the product.

[iloveclones]

If I went to a local McDonalds and everytime I ordered anything it was 10 mins late and the cashier said crap to me when I asked if it was almost done, I'd start going to Burger King.

And would you then spend day upon day posting about it on the internet?

[Morg]

$100 says cleric IS Slim31.


He is and both accounts are on probation. No more talk about this troll please

[Doc Destruction]

Damn, I rule.

[The Red Skull]

For a comic shop to "need" the sales of CW on a particular day to survive simply means they are running their business badly. Simple as that.

If you've been following the sales charts over the past few years you'll notice the about 5 years ago the top selling books where around 100000 to get to the top of the charts. Now days everybook in the top 15 or so sells these number as such retailers are in a much stronger position.

Sure civil war is the money pot for them but If you rely on big sellers like that coming along then you're a bad business man (ie what if civil war flopped in sales?)

Well, if you're talking about Glaswegian comic book stores (y'know, both of them) it's not as if a sizeable amount of cash doesn't come from the myriad other products they sell. Every time I walk into Forbidden Planet or A-1 Comics on a busy day I'm forever amazed at how few people are actually buying the comics. Especially the kids: I daresay it's the Yu-Gi-Oh! trading cards, movie memorabilia and action figures/sculptures that give them any kind of financial security. Forbidden Planet has a few pretty neat deals on DVDs as well.

And while I love both stores dearly, it's pretty clear that a sizeable portion of their clientele just ain't interested in picking up monthly comics. Especially as an individual monthly can cost up to 3 quid (nearly 6 dollars). The fact of the matter is that our hobby is niche even in dedicated specialty stores.

From that perspective, those comic book stores that solely sell comics (and New York's taught me that there's still a couple) probably do find themselves depending on the big events.

[TheCorpulent1]

Most comic shops can't survive by selling only comics anyway. Lateness doesn't have anything to do with it. Comics could come out on time every month and they still wouldn't make as much money as card games or all the other crap comic shops have started selling.

[Morg]

Most comic shops can't survive by selling only comics anyway. Lateness doesn't have anything to do with it. Comics could come out on time every month and they still wouldn't make as much money as card games or all the other crap comic shops have started selling.


True, I seen comic stores expand and sell other stuff from renting videos and games and more

[Doc Destruction]

Damn that avatar anyway. I can't ever leave a thread that has a Morg post in it for like 15 minutes.

[Morg]

Guess a pic of her in bed and in panties wouldn't help? (http://www.widescreenbabes.com/wsbimg/15/2/94.3a86b4c691a6d43bc9752318cd99df5e.jpg)

[GNR]

That's hot!

[Doc Destruction]

For the love of God...

[Morg]

*wags finger* look but don't touch, she's mine :oldrazz:

[CaptainStacy]

To be honest, I didn't see anything geatly offensive about what Hitch said. I think you're going a little to over the top, or reading too hard into his words.

He's just kind of saying stuff, and they're all truths. He's basically saying,

"A bunch of comics are late because Marvel WANTED to wait for Millar and McNiven to tell their story. And seeing as Marvel are getting them to restructure the ENTIRE Marvel universe, and the book is only a month late, is impressive. It's not the worst thing going on in the world."

You know, he saw his friends, (Millar and McNiven,) apologise immensely, only to find his friends still being insulted by loads of whiny fans. So lashed back on behalf of his friends, seeing as they didn't want to.

To be honest, I'm kind of on his side here. I've collected comics for donkeys, and have been in the comic store every week since I was like, 9. I wait for issues, and have something like 3000 comics. I dislike rude creators, but I dislike incredibly rude fan boys/girls more so. Some people can be really disgusting. I think he's aiming his comments more at those people, not people like us.

The fact of it is, yeah, some people need to get a life, and stop wishing bad things on people, just 'cause their book is running late. Go watch the news, go focus your negative energy on people who are ruining our countries, not people trying to entertain us

'nuff said!

[Darthphere]

If only it was that easy. Since you know, we get comic books for free and all.

[hippy fascist]

ha ha

http://forums.millarworld.tv/

the forums are "down for repairs"

are you americans perhaps familiar with jimmy hill?

[SpideyInATree]

I know this is a rant but for god's sake have some respect for your fans and let them voice their opinions

He's not stopping you from voicing your opinion.

So, you can voice your opinion but Hitch isn't allowed to voice his? :confused:

[Darthphere]

He's not stopping you from voicing your opinion.

So, you can voice your opinion but Hitch isn't allowed to voice his? :confused:


Exactly.:up:

[Doc Destruction]

Hitch isn't buying OUR product. Nice try, though.

[Darthphere]

I tell my customers all the time to go out and lose their virginity, but hey I was only joking.

[SpideyInATree]

Hitch isn't buying OUR product. Nice try, though.

No, he isn't. But does that still mean he's not allowed to have an opinion on something? :confused:

I think he's allowed to say whatever he wants. Wolvie got offended and isn't buying his book anymore, I'm sure it's no sweat off of Hitch's sack.

[Darthphere]

No, he isn't. But does that still mean he's not allowed to have an opinion on something? :confused:

I think he's allowed to say whatever he wants. Wolvie got offended and isn't buying his book anymore, I'm sure it's no sweat off of Hitch's sack.


An opinion and insult, even jokingly are two different things. If you went to BK (assuming you eat BK) and ordered a burger with no pickles, and got pickles in your burger and complained to the guy at the register and have some other dude come and tell you, jokingly "Hey there are more importnat things in the world, why dont you go lose your virginity?" Ill assume by your responses so far that would be totally cool with you.

[hippy fascist]

An opinion and insult, even jokingly are two different things. If you went to BK (assuming you eat BK) and ordered a burger with no pickles, and got pickles in your burger and complained to the guy at the register and have some other dude come and tell you, jokingly "Hey there are more importnat things in the world, why dont you go lose your virginity?" Ill assume by your responses so far that would be totally cool with you.

Which is even further compounded in this case by the "simpson's comic book guy" stereotype that we as fans of this medium already have to contend with as it is. Also it wasn't just addressing fan's it was also the retailers posting there who have every right to ***** since their gonna lose both short-term trade over this and potential new customers who are just gonna lose interest now.

Also with regards the one person thing, I'm not buying ultimates anymore as a result of this comment either and I'm sure a lot of other people will feel the same.

[Darthphere]

Which is even further compunded in this case by the "simpson's comic book guy" stereotype that we as fans of this medium already have to contend with as it is. Also it wasn't just addressing fan's it was also the retailers posting there who have every right to ***** since their gonna lose both short-term trade over this and potential new customers who are just gonna lose interest now.

Also with regards the one person thing, I'm not buying ultimates anymore as a result of this comment either and I'm sure a lot of other people will feel the same.


Its not even that. these guys are supposed to be professionals. Comments like that are unnecessary and inexcusable. I didnt pick up Ultimates anyway but if his next project seems any good, ill buy it. I wont be a hypocrite and say I wont. It was pretty sad going to the comic book store this week and a guy was asking for the new issue of Civil War and the guy at the register had to explain to him what was going on. The guy said that he only got into Civil War because he read about it in the newspaper. Potential new Marvel reader possibly lost. Of course I stepped in and handed him the back issues of X-Factor.:up:

[hippy fascist]

and that's why the industry survives to this day, people will rarely be drawn to this medium by ad's. It's usually someone offering friendly advice or through recomendation. If the writers of the books can't even take criticism (particularly when it's not even directed at them) then what kind of image does that present. As i've said many times in these threads, I don't have a problem with millar or mcniven because they were civil, had the decency to apologise and tried to deal with the angry fan's by answering their question and being completely open about what was going on. I do have a problem with Hitch lashing out at fans who are understandably upset about this. How long does it take you to read a comic book, me normally about 10-15 minutes. FOR THREE DOLLARS. Christ you can go see a three hour movie for ten bucks at the cinema. As entertainment medium's go this is a premium service and as a result fan's have the right to get pissy when said PREMIUM service fails to meet the standards that marvel advertised it as doing. Technically every time marvel delivers a book that was solicited as monthly late they are guilty of false advertising...a petty point perhaps but it's true

[Darthphere]

Ive actually mellowed out about the actual delays, the lies, spin and commentary on it however still gets me riled up.

[hippy fascist]

meh, I'm not happy about it but truth be told my anger kinda got solely directed at Hitch the moment he said what he said. Then I read brevoort comments in response to the newserama thread and the sheer politicians answers he was coming out with allowed to divert a little off his way. But Hitch is still number one on my **** list right now

[hippy fascist]

yet more bull**** about artistic integrity and for the love of god when are they gonna stop going on about "dark knight and watchmen". Each time I hear it it sounds more like an autocue

http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays10.html

he actualy brings up issue #1 of Daredevil being late. Seriously joe are you even aware that you still have to finish your little pet project or are you just that stupid that you ***** about someone else who had a shorter delay on a book about the same character you are still failing to deliver yourself,

[Darthphere]

Really the best quote was this:

In the end, the decision was made that for the longevity and future of this project and looking way ahead at trade and hardcover collections, this was the best decision to make.


**** monthly readers, get all your **** in trades.

[hippy fascist]

to be honest though this event has been marketed more at non comic fans, so I think that's why he's taken this attitude about it. The reality is without the people buying monthlies no book would ever make it to trade.

It's like shaking an egg repeeatedly, and then saying "it's alright I'll treat it like royalty when it hatches". You're still gonna end up with a spacky chicken at the end of the day.

[Xofenroht]

Jokes on him. I don't know about anyone else, but the only trades I pick up are the ones I was young enough to miss the first time around like Animal Man, Swamp Thing, and Sandman or those I'm seriously behind on like Y: The Last Man.

[Arkady Rossovich]

Marvel has become corrupt i tell you.The evil does not end.

[Wolverazio]

It seems to be indicative of the medium as a whole, considering there are fans that will defend the right of the writers and artists to not do their jobs.

In any other business, if you don't show up to work, they replace you. If you have a grievous illness, there is perhaps sympathy and vacation pay and your job still waiting for you when you get back...but someone else still does it in the meantime.

And if a client isn't happy, heads roll.

For some reason, comics are treated as exempt to all of these very real world rules and some even think that the company has a right to flat out insult their clients (ala Hitch).

If any business, be it automotive, newspaper, construction, etc., was to be run like Marvel or DC, they would have gone under long ago.

The only answer really is in the Indies (don't like Ford? you can go to Chevy, Toyota, Mitsubishi, etc. Don't like Marvel or DC? You got Image and Darkhorse...with some Devil's Due and 2000 AD if you really want to seek them out).

[hippy fascist]

Excellent points but toyota are pretty much on the same level as ford these days :p

Oh and don't forget virgin, their stuffs been pretty high quality so far and despite being a totally new publisher their hasn't been a single hitch with release dates

[Darthphere]

LOL! Theyve had like 2 comics come out.

[hippy fascist]

LOL! Theyve had like 2 comics come out.

5 actually :p virign issue 0, devi 1 & 2, the sadhu 1 and snake woman 1

[Darthphere]

I wouldnt call them a success just yet though.

[TheCorpulent1]

It seems to be indicative of the medium as a whole, considering there are fans that will defend the right of the writers and artists to not do their jobs.

In any other business, if you don't show up to work, they replace you. If you have a grievous illness, there is perhaps sympathy and vacation pay and your job still waiting for you when you get back...but someone else still does it in the meantime.

And if a client isn't happy, heads roll.

For some reason, comics are treated as exempt to all of these very real world rules and some even think that the company has a right to flat out insult their clients (ala Hitch).

If any business, be it automotive, newspaper, construction, etc., was to be run like Marvel or DC, they would have gone under long ago.

The only answer really is in the Indies (don't like Ford? you can go to Chevy, Toyota, Mitsubishi, etc. Don't like Marvel or DC? You got Image and Darkhorse...with some Devil's Due and 2000 AD if you really want to seek them out).
Some might be tempted to argue that penciling isn't "any other business," it's art, and artists are usually free to take however long they need to come up with a piece. But those people would be wrong. Comics are commercial art, just like advertising or graphic design, and if you don't meet your deadlines in those industries, you're damn right they'll fire you. That's exactly why I'm starting to get tired of Marvel's relentless bull****. They judge the success of their comics by the almighty dollar, but when delays pop up, they play the art card. "Would you rather have a crappy product that's on time, or a work of art that's late?" The publishers want to have their cake and eat it too, eagerly pursuing money as a business but hiding behind the idea that they're putting out art and that creativity is the most important part of the equation. That particular double-talk is starting to get to me.

[Darthphere]

Some might be tempted to argue that penciling isn't "any other business," it's art, and artists are usually free to take however long they need to come up with a piece. But those people would be wrong. Comics are commercial art, just like advertising or graphic design, and if you don't meet your deadlines in those industries, you're damn right they'll fire you. That's exactly why I'm starting to get tired of Marvel's relentless bull****. They judge the success of their comics by the almighty dollar, but when delays pop up, they play the art card. "Would you rather have a crappy product that's on time, or a work of art that's late?" The publishers want to have their cake and eat it too, eagerly pursuing money as a business but hiding behind the idea that they're putting out art and that creativity is the most important part of the equation. That particular double-talk is starting to get to me.


I agree 100%. Like ive said before, they have this attitude as if theyre doing us the favor by delaying the comic.

[Doc Destruction]

Exactly. Are they expecting people to THANK them for this???

[gildea]

Exactly. Are they expecting people to THANK them for this???

No but they're hoping at least people will understand why it happens.

Unlikely so it would seem.

[gildea]

Out of curiosity whose business/place of employment runs perfectly smoothly all of the time?

I have had 3 jobs in my life so far.
1. In a supermarket
2. A paint company
3. For an insurance company

And none have been these hyper efficent companies that sack people arbitrarily for delays you lot seem to work for. I have been amazed (particuarly as I'm a buisness major, in the middle of my second degree) at the service standards of these companies I've worked for (not in a position to effect things I add).

Number 3 sticks in my mind at one point we were told we could only offer people a turnaround time of 4 weeks (eventualy months after I'd left this was brought down to 2 days so i'm sure you can imagine the job customers felt at the 4 week time that was being offered (and accepted with lots of swearing I add) for the year I worked with them).

I just find it unlikely that everyone here works for a company that is perfect.

(nb this is not to justify the lateness, just at least stop this holier than though posturing some posts are taking (not all though))

[gildea]

Some might be tempted to argue that penciling isn't "any other business," it's art, and artists are usually free to take however long they need to come up with a piece. But those people would be wrong. Comics are commercial art, just like advertising or graphic design, and if you don't meet your deadlines in those industries, you're damn right they'll fire you.


You could argue the movie industry is commercial art and that plagued with delays and such like. Ditto video games.

This is not a comic specific thing.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, and? I'm annoyed when those things are bumped off schedule, too. The difference is that they're putting out one solitary product at a time that has to stand and deliver revenue for months or years at a time, so lateness is excused even more in those areas, provided it doesn't start costing the backers too much money. But if people are doing their jobs right, every commercial art industry should be able to stick to the schedules they create.

[Darthphere]

Out of curiosity whose business/place of employment runs perfectly smoothly all of the time?

I have had 3 jobs in my life so far.
1. In a supermarket
2. A paint company
3. For an insurance company

And none have been these hyper efficent companies that sack people arbitrarily for delays you lot seem to work for. I have been amazed (particuarly as I'm a buisness major, in the middle of my second degree) at the service standards of these companies I've worked for (not in a position to effect things I add).

Number 3 sticks in my mind at one point we were told we could only offer people a turnaround time of 4 weeks (eventualy months after I'd left this was brought down to 2 days so i'm sure you can imagine the job customers felt at the 4 week time that was being offered (and accepted with lots of swearing I add) for the year I worked with them).

I just find it unlikely that everyone here works for a company that is perfect.

(nb this is not to justify the lateness, just at least stop this holier than though posturing some posts are taking (not all though))


When you worked at the insurance company and a customer complained did you tell him to go lose his virginity, but lolz it was just a joke.

[Wolverazio]

Out of curiosity whose business/place of employment runs perfectly smoothly all of the time?

I have had 3 jobs in my life so far.
1. In a supermarket
2. A paint company
3. For an insurance company

And none have been these hyper efficent companies that sack people arbitrarily for delays you lot seem to work for. I have been amazed (particuarly as I'm a buisness major, in the middle of my second degree) at the service standards of these companies I've worked for (not in a position to effect things I add).

Number 3 sticks in my mind at one point we were told we could only offer people a turnaround time of 4 weeks (eventualy months after I'd left this was brought down to 2 days so i'm sure you can imagine the job customers felt at the 4 week time that was being offered (and accepted with lots of swearing I add) for the year I worked with them).

I just find it unlikely that everyone here works for a company that is perfect.

(nb this is not to justify the lateness, just at least stop this holier than though posturing some posts are taking (not all though))

Were you allowed to insult clients that were upset that a 4 week turnaround time was the best you could do?

Or, no matter how irate the customer became, were you expected to calmly explain it to them? (or maybe you didn't have to deal with customers, also understandable)

I work as an examiner of titles (in real estate) and we have a 6 hour turnaround time to maintain. Do we always hit it? No. But we bust our ass to do it and if the client complains, not one of us could insult them or we would be fired.

That's the thing. Most of us don't care about the delays anymore (though this isn't the first time it's happened with these people involved, so that also removes the "arbitrarily" of your hypothetical) it's the fact that when people were upset (and comic shops who are losing not just Civil War but ongoings for a month, which, as I asked my own comic guy last night [who is more DC and independent and is not phased] WILL affect their money) one of the staff members of Marvel saw fit to openly insult anyone who was upset.

That's what's wrong. When you f up, you take accountability for it (and since Hitch wasn't involved, he should have kept his fat trap shut), you don't insult the people who do pay your wages.

[hippy fascist]

Ok, here's one for you, With regards the fans were *****ing at him so he has the right to have a go at them.

I work in business to business sales. Half the time people don't want to talk to me when I cold call them. I get called every name under the sun and some of the filth these people come out with you would not believe. However, every time I get an insult I simply bite my tongue and try to talk them down. Sometimes I have gotten my best jobs for the company with someone who started out insulting me. I always remain polite and level headed because I understand that at the end of the day I AM WORKING FOR THEM, NOT THEM FOR ME.

Look at it this way. If I turn round and call someone an arse for having a go at me, next thing I know I've prevented my company from doing any more business with this contact. Then it goes deeper, he will tell say 5-6 friends about what arsewholes my company are. Suddenly they won't do business with us. And they tell a few friends, etc (I'm sure you've seen waynes world! :P) The point is if you work in a business serving customers, you are at all times representing your company. By this logic you could argue that to some extent people like Hitch are the public face of marvel. Miller and Mcniven did the right thing by calming down and trying to appease the fans concerns. Hitch just gave marvel a bad name

[Purple Man]

They're a comic book company with a very vocal fanbase. Marvel has always tried to convey themselves as more than just a business. A place where they openly talk to their readers.

And with the whiny wankers that frequent this message board and hundreds more like it make it hard for these writers and artists to keep a straight face.

There are a lot bigger things in the world to go and cry about. Like a war in Iraq or our messed up economy. But that takes a back seat because 'Civil War' got delayed.

Maybe there should be a Fanboy registration act, upon signing you are no longer allowed to whine like a little girl about late books. All those who don't sign get their keyboards taken away and are left with their virginity for the rest of their lives.

[hippy fascist]

Is this a global politics board no, Is this a stop the war in iraq campaign...no

It's a ****ing comics message board...what exactly shold we be whining about on a COMICS message board.

Dumbass

[Darthphere]

They're a comic book company with a very vocal fanbase. Marvel has always tried to convey themselves as more than just a business. A place where they openly talk to their readers.

And with the whiny wankers that frequent this message board and hundreds more like it make it hard for these writers and artists to keep a straight face.

There are a lot bigger things in the world to go and cry about. Like a war in Iraq or our messed up economy. But that takes a back seat because 'Civil War' got delayed.

Maybe there should be a Fanboy registration act, upon signing you are no longer allowed to whine like a little girl about late books. All those who don't sign get their keyboards taken away and are left with their virginity for the rest of their lives.


These extreme analogies people keep throwing are so utterly ridiculous, that the people who post them should automatically lose 5 IQ points.

[Darthphere]

They're a comic book company with a very vocal fanbase. Marvel has always tried to convey themselves as more than just a business. A place where they openly talk to their readers.


But they are a ****ing business, theyre not giving out these comics for free.

And with the whiny wankers that frequent this message board and hundreds more like it make it hard for these writers and artists to keep a straight face.

Where ive worked ive heard some of the stupidest complaints on earth, but you nkow what, I have to suck it up, keep a straight face and listen to them and apologize for their inconvinience or help them out. Thats how ****ing businesses work.

There are a lot bigger things in the world to go and cry about. Like a war in Iraq or our messed up economy. But that takes a back seat because 'Civil War' got delayed.

I already touched upon this.

Maybe there should be a Fanboy registration act, upon signing you are no longer allowed to whine like a little girl about late books. All those who don't sign get their keyboards taken away and are left with their virginity for the rest of their lives.

Live true to your word, because god forbid you complain about anything, then youre a whiny *****. Really, ive read some ridiculous posts in my day, but this one takes the cake. When a movie starts late you paid $11 for, dont complain, youre a whiny fanboy if you do. If you're food is cold at the restaurant youre dropping benjamins on, dont complain youre a whiny fanboy. ****ing ridiculous.

[Wolverazio]

They're a comic book company with a very vocal fanbase. Marvel has always tried to convey themselves as more than just a business. A place where they openly talk to their readers.

And with the whiny wankers that frequent this message board and hundreds more like it make it hard for these writers and artists to keep a straight face.

There are a lot bigger things in the world to go and cry about. Like a war in Iraq or our messed up economy. But that takes a back seat because 'Civil War' got delayed.

Maybe there should be a Fanboy registration act, upon signing you are no longer allowed to whine like a little girl about late books. All those who don't sign get their keyboards taken away and are left with their virginity for the rest of their lives.

I wanna play too daddy!

"There are a lot bigger things to cry about than other people complaining about something. Like terrorism in other countries (America's not the only one on the planet with it boyo) or a messed up culture where people aren't held accountable for their actions.

Maybe there should be a Fanboy-in-denial registration act, where you are hunted down if you are a fanboy for the writers instead of a fanboy for the comics and defend their right to....not do their job instead of making complaints about the lateness or quality of their work and if you don't sign...you get fired...out of a cannon into the sun."

And I didn't think we really had to cover this, but I guess there's no accounting for common sense. I'm not saying the people who insulted Millar and Mcniven were right. In fact, I know Darth and I both have said we don't care about the delay anymore because while it was annoying and not handled well...what's done is done (I think hippy and others have too, but not looking to speak for anyone).

But two wrongs don't make a right. Just because a client insults you doesn't mean you get to insult them back. Especially since the fans weren't talking about Hitch.

And a few pages back someone made an excellent point as far as your ludicrous "there are more important things in the world." When I come here, I come here to talk about comics. In my everyday life, I regularly try to reach people and make them see flaws in the government, oil industry, social preconceptions, etc.

So heaven forbid I want to just come and talk about comics or, when someone does something stupid, ***** about comics a little.

So tell me, why aren't you out there protesting the war or supporting it, or trying to fix the economy instead of replying to us boyo?

And just to really stick it in your craw...I've actually gotten laid while reading comics. So why don't you go find Hitch and you two can complain about those "unfair fanboys and their expecting that we actually do our jobs and meet deadlines like the rest of the world has to."


/rant

[hippy fascist]

While reading comics?:eek: Not sure on the physics on that one, were you reading it together whiel she's bent over a desk or what?

[Wolverazio]

While reading comics?:eek: Not sure on the physics on that one, were you reading it together whiel she's bent over a desk or what?

"You know the test? You just say 'jump on top honey, you do what you like.'"

I've said too much.

[Purple Man]

Difference is, I complain about people with a smile on my face. I'm the type that finds seething fanboy rage rather amusing.

You either learn to laugh at stupidity or you're going to get depressed at the overwhelming idiocy.

Laid while reading a comic? I always had the unbarable choice between getting laid and reading. Very few of us can find the courage to tell a naked woman "Hold on one more minute, Batman is about to slap the $%*@ out of the Joker."

I'm done typing now. I'm going to sit quietly and watch Wolverazios avatar for an hour or so.

[SpideyInATree]

An opinion and insult, even jokingly are two different things. If you went to BK (assuming you eat BK) and ordered a burger with no pickles, and got pickles in your burger and complained to the guy at the register and have some other dude come and tell you, jokingly "Hey there are more importnat things in the world, why dont you go lose your virginity?" Ill assume by your responses so far that would be totally cool with you.

Well, if the worker is joking that means he's going to take the pickles off. And besides, I like pickles so the interaction wouldn't have happened in the first place. :spidey:

But if Hitch is just joking around, which I think it's obvious, I don't understand what the big deal is.

It's like a bunch of defensiveness going on around here. Hitch isn't insulting ME. I've complained about the delays on Ultimates but I haven't gone as far to the lengths a lot of other people go to. And I'm not complaining about the delay on Civil War. And I've lost my virginity already. So, how is that insulting?

That's along the lines of the "YOU ***!" and then you go and get all mad over nothing. I mean...that's not really insulting unless you're really a homosexual.

And what did posters say in that thread before Hitch posted that comment? I'm sure there weren't a lot of nice things said. It seems to me the people who are most upset about this are the ones who haven't lost their virginity. :p :p

[hippy fascist]

The point is the stereotype exists and people like him make it worse. I'm not offended by Hitch's comments. I'm offended by his lack of respect for the people who pay his wages.

The problem is that whilst I can do very well for myself with the ladies :D I don't need to be taking jock-wanker comments from people WITHIN THE INDUSTRY.

[SpideyInATree]

The point is the stereotype exists and people like him make it worse. I'm not offended by Hitch's comments. I'm offended by his lack of respect for the people who pay his wages.

The problem is that whilst I can do very well for myself with the ladies :D I don't need to be taking jock-wanker comments from people WITHIN THE INDUSTRY.

But the comment wasn't directed at you. And what do you care so much about a dumb stereotype? If you're not part of that mold, don't worry about it.

[Darthphere]

Well, if the worker is joking that means he's going to take the pickles off. And besides, I like pickles so the interaction wouldn't have happened in the first place. :spidey:

But if Hitch is just joking around, which I think it's obvious, I don't understand what the big deal is.

It's like a bunch of defensiveness going on around here. Hitch isn't insulting ME. I've complained about the delays on Ultimates but I haven't gone as far to the lengths a lot of other people go to. And I'm not complaining about the delay on Civil War. And I've lost my virginity already. So, how is that insulting?

That's along the lines of the "YOU ***!" and then you go and get all mad over nothing. I mean...that's not really insulting unless you're really a homosexual.

And what did posters say in that thread before Hitch posted that comment? I'm sure there weren't a lot of nice things said. It seems to me the people who are most upset about this are the ones who haven't lost their virginity. :p :p


My main problem is, what the hell does Bryan Hitch have anything to say about the topic at hand? Hes not part of the project. "Oh there bashing my friends, better insult some internet fanboys!"

[Darthphere]

Its pretty bad when you guys actually defend this. No other business can get way with something like that, but since hey its just comics its all good. It speaks volume about the people on here.

[Darthphere]

But the comment wasn't directed at you. And what do you care so much about a dumb stereotype? If you're not part of that mold, don't worry about it.


Actually it was, because when he posted it, it more of an open thing. He wasnt really respond to one post, it was a sweeping blanket statement towards all the fanboys complaining.

[Wolverazio]

Laid while reading a comic? I always had the unbarable choice between getting laid and reading. Very few of us can find the courage to tell a naked woman "Hold on one more minute, Batman is about to slap the $%*@ out of the Joker."

I'm done typing now. I'm going to sit quietly and watch Wolverazios avatar for an hour or so.

You just haven't found that special lady yet then. Keep searching...

And that's an assumption. I go about and I do many things and I think people that complain about continuity can be just as ridiculous as Hitch (a man that works on comics for a living) calling people that want their comics on times virgins. And just because it seems like I have to repeat myself, I don't even care about the CW delay really (since I'm not buying the miniseries, though I do find it a bit sad that in certain areas comic shops are a dying breed and this does not help them) but I do think its silly that people are willing to defend someone doing something that no one else gets away with.

Hitch is not our friend, Hitch is not some guy you know on the street, Hitch is working for a company that provides a product that we choose to buy or not buy. Hitch should not be allowed to talk like that, period.

On a side note, depending on the situation, I would even tell my friends to stop being so lame as to just call me a virgin because I'm talking about comics. Kidding and ball busting is fine...but I don't know Hitch and he doesn't know me. He should act like an adult (as should the fanboys that were insulting Millar and McNiven but really...they're a bit of a lost cause).

[Darthphere]

SHH: Land of the Lost Cause.


And im done talking about this.

[gildea]

Were you allowed to insult clients that were upset that a 4 week turnaround time was the best you could do?

Or, no matter how irate the customer became, were you expected to calmly explain it to them? (or maybe you didn't have to deal with customers, also understandable)



I dealt with the complain calls so yeah I got plenty of abuse. When customers became too abusive I simply informed them they were being too abusive and hung up on them

That's what's wrong. When you f up, you take accountability for it (and since Hitch wasn't involved, he should have kept his fat trap shut), you don't insult the people who do pay your wages.

those involved had alredy apologised and taken accountability in posts.

Hitch had been brought into the discussion (due to his own lateness).

And Sorry but just because they pay his wages DOES NOT give them the right to abuse him and not expect a reaction. If more fans took responsibility for the own online personas this wouldn't have happened.

All of you seem to be ignoring that this wasn't hitch just replying to the situation, this was hitch replying to the abuse he, millar and mcniven where recieving at millars own board.

I should add I would not have done what hitch done, but I don't think we can make too many judgements about the man because he simply stood up to people who were abusing him and his friends

[Darthphere]

I should add I would not have done what hitch done, but I don't think we can make too many judgements about the man because he simply stood up to people who were abusing him and his friends


I think abuse is too strong a word, like seriously if hes feeling "abused" he needs to chill. Its just internet fanboys, there are so many other thigns to worry about like wars, and the economy. Why doesnt he go out and finish Ultimates.;):p

[hippy fascist]

And im done talking about this.

Darthphere, man of his word... :p

[gildea]

I think abuse is too strong a word, like seriously if hes feeling "abused" he needs to chill. Its just internet fanboys, there are so many other thigns to worry about like wars, and the economy. Why doesnt he go out and finish Ultimates.;):p

I could say the same about what he said.

Not that I disagree with you, I just disagree with the general reaction and judging of the man based on his slagging off of fanboys.

The ultimates is finished, he's just burned the pages to spite the internet.

[Darthphere]

Darthphere, man of his word... :p


Im not necessarily talking about the situation anymore, im joking around with gildea.

[Darthphere]

I could say the same about what he said.

Not that I disagree with you, I just disagree with the general reaction and judging of the man based on his slagging off of fanboys.

The ultimates is finished, he's just burned the pages to spite the internet.


You know how awesome it would be if they released a video of that online would be. "Oops, looks like we have to start all over again." I could hear the internet exploding as I type.

[Wolverazio]

I dealt with the complain calls so yeah I got plenty of abuse. When customers became too abusive I simply informed them they were being too abusive and hung up on them



those involved had alredy apologised and taken accountability in posts.

Hitch had been brought into the discussion (due to his own lateness).

And Sorry but just because they pay his wages DOES NOT give them the right to abuse him and not expect a reaction. If more fans took responsibility for the own online personas this wouldn't have happened.

All of you seem to be ignoring that this wasn't hitch just replying to the situation, this was hitch replying to the abuse he, millar and mcniven where recieving at millars own board.

I should add I would not have done what hitch done, but I don't think we can make too many judgements about the man because he simply stood up to people who were abusing him and his friends

And we aren't. I didn't read but from what everyone said, Millar and McNiven were handling it pure class. Hitch didn't and that's why we're dog piling on him. Kinda the old "don't sink to their level." Plus, again the fact that in any other business, no matter how much abuse you take you don't get to just go and insult the clients. I even just said I'm not saying the fanboys that were insulting Millar and company were right, but just because they are wrong doesn't make Hitch right.

Lost causes are the only causes worth fighting for!

[gildea]

And we aren't.

you might not be but others in this thread are.

Just look at the first post.

Again I agree hitch was wrong, but that doesn't make anything subsequently said about him right either.

[Darthphere]

you might not be but others in this thread are.

Just look at the first post.

Again I agree hitch was wrong, but that doesn't make anything subsequently said about him right either.


That post is from Hippy, he has ADD, Bi-polar disorder and tourettes, cut him a break.:mad:

[hippy fascist]

That post is from Hippy, he has ADD, Bi-polar disorder and tourettes, cut him a break.:mad:

but I'm all right as long as I get my meds

[gildea]

but I'm all right as long as I get my meds


...were your meds late? ;)

[Darthphere]

...were your meds late? ;)


They didnt solicit them properly.

[roach]

They didnt solicit them properly.

the guy making them is taking his time and wants to make sure you get a good product...why dont you lose your virginity and stop whining about late meds...there are wars and oil and more important things to think about

[Morg]

Hmmmm *deletes Elisha post* Play nice, just because you got that name doesn't mean I won't ban you :p

[SpideyInATree]

My main problem is, what the hell does Bryan Hitch have anything to say about the topic at hand? Hes not part of the project. "Oh there bashing my friends, better insult some internet fanboys!"

Well, imagine the job that you work at. After a long hard days work you go home. You have something to eat. Have a couple brews. Go on the Internet to check the message boards and there is a thread dedicated to your work ethic. And there are posters in there, people who you've never met before in your life nor ever will meet, insulting you and saying how horrible of a job that you're doing.

That wouldn't irk you? It wouldn't get to you after every single time you go to these message boards where you want to chat with your "fans" and there are people who have to horribly insult you because you messed up a couple times and were late on a few assignments....but you still do a great job and deliver the goods when they need delivered.

Its pretty bad when you guys actually defend this. No other business can get way with something like that, but since hey its just comics its all good. It speaks volume about the people on here.

You seem to be getting your wires crossed. I don't know about other posters but I'm not necessarily defending his statement. As we can all see many of the Internet posters are very sensitive about their virginity, heh...so, he probably should have kept it to himself whether it was joking or not. But it's the fact that people flip out over this like he truly was insulting EVERY COMIC BOOK READER EVER. And I doubt that's what he was doing. And I was also defending the fact that the man is still allowed to have an opinion on things. Just because he's ACTUALLY IN THE BUSINESS doesn't mean what he has to say is automatically mute. He's a human just like the rest of us with thoughts and ideas...he can share an opinion.

Actually it was, because when he posted it, it more of an open thing. He wasnt really respond to one post, it was a sweeping blanket statement towards all the fanboys complaining.

More of an open thing to posters who were being ridiculously out of line, I'm sure. Not to every single comic book fan who has complained about late books. Did you read that interview Bendis did with Dan Slott? And they briefly talked about message boards and some of the rather disrespectful fans on the sites? And how there are always a certain amount of posters who just don't let up at all? I believe the number was six to eight, heh.

Well, I'm guessing that goes for Bryan Hitch as well. I didn't read that original thread that the post came from. But I do know how posters are on this board. There are certain posters on this board who are completely out of touch with reality it seems. And the way I've seen other professionals talked about around here it's safe to say there were probably some brutal things said simply because the guy is putting a comic book out late. And Hitch, who has easily taken crap from his delays on The Ultimates, could relate with that anger, I'm sure.

You haven't gotten mad at a poster around here for saying something ridiculously stupid before? And then you respond with your opinion on the matter? But Hitch isn't allowed to do that because he's actually in the business and exempt from those things? :confused:

If he seriously offended you because he said the oldest trick in the book "why don't you go lose your virginity"...then I think some people around here need to grow up. :o

[Darthphere]

You haven't gotten mad at a poster around here for saying something ridiculously stupid before? And then you respond with your opinion on the matter? But Hitch isn't allowed to do that because he's actually in the business and exempt from those things? :confused:

If he seriously offended you because he said the oldest trick in the book "why don't you go lose your virginity"...then I think some people around here need to grow up. :o


LOL! Im not offended at all. I could really care less what hitch has to say about my virginity or lack thereof. Everytime I try to get out, they pull me back in! About the Hitch question. No, hes not allowed to do that. People complain about Windows all the time, Windows sucks, its always crashing, it never works. What if Bill Gates poster something online telling those people to go out and lose their virginity? I can just see the mainstream media attention, windows user backlash, the ****storm it would create. Oh, im sorry this is comics, they can get away with that. For some who claims not to be defending it, you seem to be doing a lot of it.

[SpideyInATree]

LOL! Im not offended at all. I could really care less what hitch has to say about my virginity or lack thereof. Everytime I try to get out, they pull me back in! About the Hitch question. No, hes not allowed to do that. People complain about Windows all the time, Windows sucks, its always crashing, it never works. What if Bill Gates poster something online telling those people to go out and lose their virginity? I can just see the mainstream media attention, windows user backlash, the ****storm it would create. Oh, im sorry this is comics, they can get away with that. For some who claims not to be defending it, you seem to be doing a lot of it.

Comic books are a lot different than Windows.

Comic books are entertainment. There are people who use Windows for, you know, something REALLY important. Like work. Real life. So, no you're not going to see Bill Gates come on the Windows Official message board and be like, "Windows is perfect you ungrateful bastards, go lose your virginity".

The guy draws a comic book, he doesn't program and market a computer operating system that, pretty much, the entire world uses.

So, yes, Bryan Hitch can come on a message board and have an opinion. He's allowed. Should he be insulting people? As I said in the earlier post, no, he shouldn't have whether it was jokingly or not. But people seem to be taking it personally. Why? Because you've complained about late books before? Who HASN'T complained about late comic books before?

But there is a difference between.

"Man, Civil War is late now?! THAT SUCKS! I was really looking forward to this. What is up with McNiven? He sick or something? I guess it's good not to have a fill in artist and mess up the mood of the miniseries...but hopefully McNiven isn't TOO late"

...and

"Marvel is so gay! Joe Quesada is such a fat piece of garbage! JMS is a hack! Bendis is an ego centric jerk off who gives handjobs for crack! And now Steve McNiven is a piece of garbage for this lateness! What an *******!"

But, see, I guess it's OK for certain fans to throw around insults at human beings they don't even know simply because they're favorite characters aren't being written the way they feel they should. Or they can insult other human beings because of a late comic book, huh?

But when the comic creator comes along and gives people a taste of their own medicine...oh, suddenly that creator is out of line and doesn't have a right to do that even though there have been posters personally insulting him for years now? Hmmmm.

As I said before...how would you like it if there were hundreds to thousands of people on an Internet message board criticizing all the work you did at YOUR job? And people were calling you a "hack" and a "fat piece of ****" because you didn't do your work up to "their" standard. Not cool, huh?

[hippy fascist]

"Marvel is so gay! Joe Quesada is such a fat piece of garbage! JMS is a hack! Bendis is an ego centric jerk off who gives handjobs for crack! And now Steve McNiven is a piece of garbage for this lateness! What an *******!"

I'm glad we agree :D

[Darthphere]

Comic books are a lot different than Windows.

Comic books are entertainment. There are people who use Windows for, you know, something REALLY important. Like work. Real life. So, no you're not going to see Bill Gates come on the Windows Official message board and be like, "Windows is perfect you ungrateful bastards, go lose your virginity".

The guy draws a comic book, he doesn't program and market a computer operating system that, pretty much, the entire world uses.

So, yes, Bryan Hitch can come on a message board and have an opinion. He's allowed. Should he be insulting people? As I said in the earlier post, no, he shouldn't have whether it was jokingly or not. But people seem to be taking it personally. Why? Because you've complained about late books before? Who HASN'T complained about late comic books before?

But there is a difference between.

"Man, Civil War is late now?! THAT SUCKS! I was really looking forward to this. What is up with McNiven? He sick or something? I guess it's good not to have a fill in artist and mess up the mood of the miniseries...but hopefully McNiven isn't TOO late"

...and

"Marvel is so gay! Joe Quesada is such a fat piece of garbage! JMS is a hack! Bendis is an ego centric jerk off who gives handjobs for crack! And now Steve McNiven is a piece of garbage for this lateness! What an *******!"

But, see, I guess it's OK for certain fans to throw around insults at human beings they don't even know simply because they're favorite characters aren't being written the way they feel they should. Or they can insult other human beings because of a late comic book, huh?

But when the comic creator comes along and gives people a taste of their own medicine...oh, suddenly that creator is out of line and doesn't have a right to do that even though there have been posters personally insulting him for years now? Hmmmm.

As I said before...how would you like it if there were hundreds to thousands of people on an Internet message board criticizing all the work you did at YOUR job? And people were calling you a "hack" and a "fat piece of ****" because you didn't do your work up to "their" standard. Not cool, huh?


Comic book readers as a whole, have every right to call Bryan Hitch's work ethic into question. they gained that right the moment they dropped down $3 for a copy of Ultimates. Maybe the comments where a little too on the nose for him, but suffice to say the compalint is vaild as Ultimates 12 is how many months late now, and has been pushed back another 2 weeks already. The argument youre using isnt valid at all. I dont work in a public medium, or a medium as subjective as comic book art. At least in this thread other than maybe Hippy nobody has said OMG Marvel is gay. Also, you could use the same argument that the fanboys are overreacting, the same way Hitch did. Millar and McNiven handled the situation beautifully I may add. They apologized, and promised to bring us a quality product. Notice how no one is complaining about their comments, only the ones from Hitch, Brevoort and somewhat Quesada. but as a whole, the actual people involved with Civil War did what they had to do. Hitch butted in and is now paying the piper. You may say, its only a comic book, youre taking this too seriously, but hey Hitch, its only the internet, youre taking this too seriously. people get insulted all the time, but in the comic book world, if you actually sat down and did your job, there would be no reason to insult anyone. Is it harsh? Sure. But people dont like being messed with, especially when you are a fan of a medium that has become way too expensive. Same way people yell at me on the phone when I call them up to sell them a magazine or do a survey, I have to take it, because the moment I insult the dude on the other line, thats it im axed. Fired. terminated. We have far too many rockstar creators in the comic book world who think they can get away with a lot.

[hippy fascist]

I didn't say marvel was gay and if I did it was sarcastic. I've already said that Miller and McNiven handled it like perfect gentleman and when things descended into "****ing civil war shouldn't be late" I tried to steer people back to the central point, hitch's comments were out of line. Other than that I've made my piece with the lateness.

Also it's not like hitch let's ultimates slip by a few weeks or something, some of the books had 3-4 month gaps between them, that is just taking the piss. I'm all for art but four months to draw 26 ish pages is taking liberties

[Darthphere]

I didn't say marvel was gay and if I did it was sarcastic. I've already said that Miller and McNiven handled it like p[erfect gentleman and when things descended into "****ing civil war shouldn't be late" I tried to steer people back to the central point, hitch's comments were out of line. Other than that I've made my piece with the lateness.

Also it's not like hitch let's ultimates slip be a few weeks or something, some of the books had 3-4 month gaps between them, that is just taking the piss. I'm all for art but four months to draw 26 ish pages is taking liberties


Well granted, in Volume 1, his wife was in a life or death situation. I can totally understand that.

[hippy fascist]

that's a valid excuse but what about issue 12 vol 2, what's THAT all about

[Darthphere]

The initial excuse was Millar's health problems, I have no problem with that, it seems now its that they cant decide on the page count.

[iloveclones]

Some might be tempted to argue that penciling isn't "any other business," it's art, and artists are usually free to take however long they need to come up with a piece. But those people would be wrong. Comics are commercial art, just like advertising or graphic design, and if you don't meet your deadlines in those industries, you're damn right they'll fire you. That's exactly why I'm starting to get tired of Marvel's relentless bull****. They judge the success of their comics by the almighty dollar, but when delays pop up, they play the art card. "Would you rather have a crappy product that's on time, or a work of art that's late?" The publishers want to have their cake and eat it too, eagerly pursuing money as a business but hiding behind the idea that they're putting out art and that creativity is the most important part of the equation. That particular double-talk is starting to get to me.


That's a great analogy, and one I'd never thought of before. I always tended to think of comics as a more or less "artistic" medium, than a commercial one. Maybe they should start understanding that distinction as well.

One thing I wish they'd look into is how to fit in "filler" issues into the TPB market, which would really alleviate a lot of these problems(although, not CW. You can't really have fillers on an event). My suggestions: 1) Sub-plots: Bring 'em back, with the intent of dealing with them in a filler issue. 2) Who says the filler issue has to be in the TPB? If fans like it, put it in there. If they don't skip it. Who's gonna notice?

Myself, I just sort of wish that people would parse their rhetoric a little. I mean, yes, businesses do fire people, and they do expect results. But I'm sure deadlines in advertising, etc are missed all the time. I mean, people are human. Those people who miss them, depending on their talent level, are most likely given second chances. Because their bosses are people too. People who miss deadlines aren't promoted, and are given the crappier assignments. At some point, you do have to let people go. But I'm willing to bet that the people who came up with "Got Milk", Where's the Beef", and "Just Do It", if they're late, even very, very late; they're given some space. Because they're a proven commodity. Just like, as much as people don't want to hear it, Bendis and Millar.

One thing that I find kind of funny, is all the people complaining that Marvel isn't acting like a business because of all of this. Because for the last year or two, I've constantly had to bring that up in defense of New Avengers and other projects. (I mean, my favorite mag is MTU, and it's getting the axe. Upset? Yeah! Disappointed in Marvel? No way! They don't exist to be my personal, private comics producer. I'm surprised it's made it this far. Somehow, though, I doubt Marvel will get credit for sticking with it on boards like these.) One of the most common complaints I hear about NA is that it was just an excuse to put together characters who sell well. And? Isn't that the point of Marvel's business?

Bottom line: I don't really care if Marvel "owns up to" this mistake or any other. All I care about is whether or not I like the product, which I do. Immensely. But. These "lateness" problems that they have kills momentum that they generate, which is bad for business.(Go over and look at the "Marvel's Business" thread. Towards the end, they list the "skip" comics, ones that have shipped late. The dropoff is usually significant.) So whether or not they're owning up to it publicly, I sure as hell hope that there's a ruckus going on in their management offices.

[Darthphere]

One thing that I find kind of funny, is all the people complaining that Marvel isn't acting like a business because of all of this. Because for the last year or two, I've constantly had to bring that up in defense of New Avengers and other projects. (I mean, my favorite mag is MTU, and it's getting the axe. Upset? Yeah! Disappointed in Marvel? No way! They don't exist to be my personal, private comics producer. I'm surprised it's made it this far. Somehow, though, I doubt Marvel will get credit for sticking with it on boards like these.) One of the most common complaints I hear about NA is that it was just an excuse to put together characters who sell well. And? Isn't that the point of Marvel's business?


Of course, but to use the analogy of commercial art as Corp used, it should read and look good as well.

[iloveclones]

Not really. In the case of advertising, it has to increase the sales/awareness of the product. In the case of comics, well, it has to sell. Period.

[SpideyInATree]

Comic book readers as a whole, have every right to call Bryan Hitch's work ethic into question. they gained that right the moment they dropped down $3 for a copy of Ultimates. Maybe the comments where a little too on the nose for him, but suffice to say the compalint is vaild as Ultimates 12 is how many months late now, and has been pushed back another 2 weeks already. The argument youre using isnt valid at all. I dont work in a public medium, or a medium as subjective as comic book art. At least in this thread other than maybe Hippy nobody has said OMG Marvel is gay. Also, you could use the same argument that the fanboys are overreacting, the same way Hitch did. Millar and McNiven handled the situation beautifully I may add. They apologized, and promised to bring us a quality product. Notice how no one is complaining about their comments, only the ones from Hitch, Brevoort and somewhat Quesada. but as a whole, the actual people involved with Civil War did what they had to do. Hitch butted in and is now paying the piper. You may say, its only a comic book, youre taking this too seriously, but hey Hitch, its only the internet, youre taking this too seriously. people get insulted all the time, but in the comic book world, if you actually sat down and did your job, there would be no reason to insult anyone. Is it harsh? Sure. But people dont like being messed with, especially when you are a fan of a medium that has become way too expensive. Same way people yell at me on the phone when I call them up to sell them a magazine or do a survey, I have to take it, because the moment I insult the dude on the other line, thats it im axed. Fired. terminated. We have far too many rockstar creators in the comic book world who think they can get away with a lot.

Ok, you don't work in the public medium. But imagine having hundreds of Internet posters personally insulting you because you were late on something or didn't do something right? Regardless of whether you're in the public medium or not.

And I don't see what laying down three dollars for someones comic book has to do with them having every right to personally insult someone they never met over a story or a piece of artwork. They have a right to have an OPINION on the book but it's all right for people to throw around the name calling though? Which, by the terms of our completely out dated American Constitution, they have the right to do.

Aren't Hitch's delays due to the fact that his wife has cancer or something? Or some type of terminal disease? I think I read somewhere that his wife was severely ill which caused his delays.

Millar and McNiven apologized, ok. Hitch didn't. So what? Millar is writing it and McNiven is drawing it, they're connected. Hitch isn't, he's stating his opinion. I don't post over at newsarama or whatever other site it was posted at. But I'm sure there weren't too many pleasant things said about McNiven, Marvel, and others in general. And I'm guessing Hitch's comment was directed toward the utterly disrespectful people who truly think the world of comics should revolve around them, and not the entire community of fans.

Remember though. Comic books are fantasy and fictional. The Internet, while you may not be looking at the person or hearing their voice, it's still a real life human being in the really real world that you're talking to.

And I'm sure to a lot of these creators in comics today, who didn't grow up with the Internet and the constant barrage of comments daily about a book or company, it's frustrating to see people personally insulting you over your decision to have Character X do "this" or the fact that maybe your talent is running a bit behind schedule and suddenly you're a "dumb jerk" for that too. When, meanwhile, these people criticizing you have never drawn at all before or probably written a story before or ever ran a comic book company with about 50 to 60 years of history behind some of it's characters.

My whole point is the guy is allowed to have an opinion. He's not drawing the book or writing it. And, yes, he himself has had many delays on the book he's currently working on. Ok, people have taken that into account many times. But he's not allowed to say a WORD though? That means he has to sit there and read these outlandish posts from people who probably have no idea how this comic book business really works and yet they can go ahead and talk like they sit down and make comics of their own every single day? The dude was probably just sick and tired of hearing it.

If you don't like it so much then don't buy The Ultimates anymore. Or don't buy his work and then make him pay for it like that. Hey, maybe he's setting himself up for a serious reality check, that you can't joke with virginity toward a comic fan, it's such a touchy subject. But, that comic fan can call him an "arrogant bastard" and that's JUST FINE because they paid 2.99 for a comic book. :up:

[iloveclones]

That means he has to sit there and read these outlandish posts from people who probably have no idea how this comic book business really works and yet they can go ahead and talk like they sit down and make comics of their own every single day?

I would point out that no-one holds a gun to these guys head to go online. You want to go online and hear all the praise and adulation that people have for you, than you'd better be prepared for the jag-offs too.

[Darthphere]

I would point out that no-one holds a gun to these guys head to go online. You want to go online and hear all the praise and adulation that people have for you, than you'd better be prepared for the jag-offs too.


Excellent point.

[iloveclones]

Excellent point.

I would make the same point about fans. Nobody forces them to come online, and be subject to insults like fanboy and internet virgin. they, too, can push away from the table.

[Sabretooth]

"Marvel is so gay! Joe Quesada is such a fat piece of garbage! JMS is a hack! Bendis is an ego centric jerk off who gives handjobs for crack! And now Steve McNiven is a piece of garbage for this lateness! What an *******!"

You just summed up all of the opinions in the Spider-Man comics forum.:(

[SpideyInATree]

I would point out that no-one holds a gun to these guys head to go online. You want to go online and hear all the praise and adulation that people have for you, than you'd better be prepared for the jag-offs too.

That's true. But I don't think a lot of creators want to just hear praise for them, maybe SOME do, haha, but not all. Some writers might enjoy a little criticism and how fans are reacting to their story.

But as I said earlier, there is criticism of something and having an opinion on it. And then there is just down right being personally insulting. And the two are very different.

Some posters can sit down and really dislike a book but state it in a civil manner where it's just that posters opinion of the book, without calling the writer or artist a "hack" or a "fat ass".

[SpideyInATree]

You just summed up all of the opinions in the Spider-Man comics forum.:(

Where do you think I got the example from? :spidey: :oldrazz:

[Darthphere]

Ok, you don't work in the public medium. But imagine having hundreds of Internet posters personally insulting you because you were late on something or didn't do something right? Regardless of whether you're in the public medium or not.

But I don't, thats the point. You want the fame, the paycheck and everything else, youre going to get the insults as well. Personally, I would never want to become famous because of things like that. Do you defend Paris Hilton like this as well?

And I don't see what laying down three dollars for someones comic book has to do with them having every right to personally insult someone they never met over a story or a piece of artwork. They have a right to have an OPINION on the book but it's all right for people to throw around the name calling though? Which, by the terms of our completely out dated American Constitution, they have the right to do.

They have that right, just like Hitch has the right to insult us back and adress those insults. People get angry it happens, but when yuore ina business where people are buying your books, you keep your cool and go punch a pillow or something later, but he has every right to talk back, as I have the right to believe it was unprofessional of him.

Aren't Hitch's delays due to the fact that his wife has cancer or something? Or some type of terminal disease? I think I read somewhere that his wife was severely ill which caused his delays.

His wife had a tough pregnancy, but that was during Vol.1. Completely unrelated to Vol.2.

Millar and McNiven apologized, ok. Hitch didn't. So what? Millar is writing it and McNiven is drawing it, they're connected. Hitch isn't, he's stating his opinion. I don't post over at newsarama or whatever other site it was posted at. But I'm sure there weren't too many pleasant things said about McNiven, Marvel, and others in general. And I'm guessing Hitch's comment was directed toward the utterly disrespectful people who truly think the world of comics should revolve around them, and not the entire community of fans.

So what? If something is going I have nothing to do with, I dont get involved. Millar and McNiven handled the situation, and people stopped talking about them. Again, why do you think people are still talking about Hitch's comments, because he stepped in where he had no business doing so. Has any other creator spoke out about this? No. And clearly you can see the reason why.

Remember though. Comic books are fantasy and fictional. The Internet, while you may not be looking at the person or hearing their voice, it's still a real life human being in the really real world that you're talking to.

A person you'll never see or meet probably in your life. As someone in a profession where people are gonna have a varying array of opinions, he should be used to bad and good comments and insults as well. Is insulting the guy right? No, but in hitch's case he couldve easily avoided them.

And I'm sure to a lot of these creators in comics today, who didn't grow up with the Internet and the constant barrage of comments daily about a book or company, it's frustrating to see people personally insulting you over your decision to have Character X do "this" or the fact that maybe your talent is running a bit behind schedule and suddenly you're a "dumb jerk" for that too. When, meanwhile, these people criticizing you have never drawn at all before or probably written a story before or ever ran a comic book company with about 50 to 60 years of history behind some of it's characters.

Lame argument, youre better than this SIAT. Its just a variation of the "id like to see you do better" argument, which is lame beyond lame. Again, art is subjective, people are gonna like it and others aren't. You have to be able to take the bad with the good, not just the good. Really, its like you told me before, if someone said to me "your gay" I shouldn't be offended, if you're not really a "dumb jerk" you shouldnt be either. See how your arguments work both ways.

My whole point is the guy is allowed to have an opinion. He's not drawing the book or writing it. And, yes, he himself has had many delays on the book he's currently working on. Ok, people have taken that into account many times. But he's not allowed to say a WORD though? That means he has to sit there and read these outlandish posts from people who probably have no idea how this comic book business really works and yet they can go ahead and talk like they sit down and make comics of their own every single day? The dude was probably just sick and tired of hearing it.

And us comic book fans are sick and tired of hearing the lastest excuse why ultimates 2 #12 has been pushed back another 2 weeks . We don't want excuses, we want results. You promised us a monthly, give us a monthly, or fess up and take the schelaking youre inevitably going to get. And Hitch has a right to voice his opinion, sure. We have the right to think his opinion is valid, sucks, dumb or unprofessional.

If you don't like it so much then don't buy The Ultimates anymore. Or don't buy his work and then make him pay for it like that. Hey, maybe he's setting himself up for a serious reality check, that you can't joke with virginity toward a comic fan, it's such a touchy subject. But, that comic fan can call him an "arrogant bastard" and that's JUST FINE because they paid 2.99 for a comic book. :up:


I dont buy Ultimates, i think ive made that abundantly clear by now. And SIAT, youre really taking light of this, its not the fact he called us virgins, which by the way I have been since The Summer of 69 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpucUihZ4HE). Its the fact he insulted us period. the sad fact is youre making all these sarcastic arguments but he needs us more than we need him. We dont buy the book, he doesnt have a job. And yes, he comes off as an arrogant bastard, same way Alex Ross does and most artists for some reason are. But Hitch is making art, but hes also providing a service the same way John Q. at the fryer at McDonald's is. You don't go around insulting your customers, no matter what they do. Its like the first thing they teach you at your first job. But since its Hitch and hes an "artist" and were just comic book fans and its only a $3 comic book, its ok.

[SpideyInATree]

But I don't, thats the point. You want the fame, the paycheck and everything else, youre going to get the insults as well. Personally, I would never want to become fmaous because of things like that. Do you defend Paris Hilton like this as well?

They have that right, just like Hitch has the right to insult us back and adress those insults. People get angry it happens, but when yuore ina business where people are buying your books, you keep your cool and go punch a pillow or something later, but he has every right to talk back, as I have the right to believe it was unprofessional of him.

His wife had a tough pregnancy, but that was during Vol.1. Completely unrelated to Vol.2.

So what? If something is going I have nothing to do with, I dont get involved. Millar and McNiven handled the situation, and people stopped talking about them. Again, why do you think people are still talking about Hitch's comments, because he stepped in where he had no business doing so. Has any other creator spoke out about this? No. And clearly you can see the reason why.

A person you'll never see or meet probably in your life. As someone in a profession where people are gonna have a varying array of opinions, he should be used to bad and good comments and insults as well. Is insulting the guy right? No, but in hitch's case he couldve easily avoided them.

Lame argument, youre better than this SIAT. Its just a variation of the "id like to see you do better" argument, which is lame beyond lame. Again, art is subjective, people are gonna like it and others aren't. You have to be able to take the bad with the good, not just the good. Really, its like you told me before, if someone said to me "your gay" I shouldn't be offended, if you're not really a "dumb jerk" you shouldnt be either. See how your arguments work both ways.

And us comic book fans are sick and tired of hearing the lastest excuse why ultimates 2 #12 has been pushed back another 2 weeks . We don't want excuses, we want results. You promised us a monthly, give us a monthly, or fess up and take the schelaking youre inevitably going to get. And Hitch has a right to voice his opinion, sure. We have the right to think his opinion is valid, sucks, dumb or unprofessional.

I dont buy Ultimates, i think ive made that abundantly clear by now. And SIAT, youre really taking light of this, its not the fact he called us virgins, which by the way I have been since The Summer of 69 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpucUihZ4HE). Its the fact he insulted us period. the sad fact is youre making all these sarcastic arguments but he needs us more than we need him. We dont buy the book, he doesnt have a job. And yes, he comes off as an arrogant bastard, same way Alex Ross does and most artists for some reason are. But Hitch is making art, but hes also providing a service the same way John Q. at the fryer at McDonald's is. You don't go around insulting your customers, no matter what they do. Its like the first thing they teach you at your first job. But since its Hitch and hes an "artist" and were just comic book fans and its only a $3 comic book, its ok.

Fame? Bryan Hitch isn't famous. I go walking down my street and go, "Do you know who Bryan Hitch is?" And I bet NOBODY will know who he is. Yes, Paris Hilton is famous, why would I defend her? I don't care about Paris Hilton. She's contributed nothing useful to society. Bryan Hitch draws awesome pictures of The Ultimates, he's got a lot more worth to me than some girl who got famous because she gave head to some nameless guy on a grainy, night vision homemade porn.

I'm not defending Bryan Hitch. I'm defending the fact that the man is allowed to have an opinion on something. It's gotten completely distorted at this point as all "discussions" on these boards do.

You are right about certain things. Like he's a professional and shouldn't be spouting like that. Right, that's your opinion on the matter. His opinion, obviously, rivals you because he did it and I'm sure he isn't going to take it back. And he could seriously affect his career by doing that. That's blatantly obvious but he's still got EVERY right to do that. It was his decision and I'm guessing he knew what he was doing.

But, my main point is that he's human just like the rest of us. You don't have to agree with him but he's got EVERY RIGHT to say what he wants to say, especially on a comic book message board.

But I thought that he didn't insult you? :confused: At least that's what you said earlier in the thread. And I don't think he was insulting US. As I said, there were probably certain posters who were doing what they do best, being trolls, and it was directed toward them. I find it hard to believe that he'd direct that to every single comic book fan in existance.

[hippy fascist]

I found her home movie useful when the mrs dumped me :(

[Darthphere]

Fame? Bryan Hitch isn't famous. I go walking down my street and go, "Do you know who Bryan Hitch is?" And I bet NOBODY will know who he is. Yes, Paris Hilton is famous, why would I defend her? I don't care about Paris Hilton. She's contributed nothing useful to society. Bryan Hitch draws awesome pictures of The Ultimates, he's got a lot more worth to me than some girl who got famous because she gave head to some nameless guy on a grainy, night vision homemade porn.

I'm not defending Bryan Hitch. I'm defending the fact that the man is allowed to have an opinion on something. It's gotten completely distorted at this point as all "discussions" on these boards do.

You are right about certain things. Like he's a professional and shouldn't be spouting like that. Right, that's your opinion on the matter. His opinion, obviously, rivals you because he did it and I'm sure he isn't going to take it back. And he could seriously affect his career by doing that. That's blatantly obvious but he's still got EVERY right to do that. It was his decision and I'm guessing he knew what he was doing.

But, my main point is that he's human just like the rest of us. You don't have to agree with him but he's got EVERY RIGHT to say what he wants to say, especially on a comic book message board.

But I thought that he didn't insult you? :confused: At least that's what you said earlier in the thread. And I don't think he was insulting US. As I said, there were probably certain posters who were doing what they do best, being trolls, and it was directed toward them. I find it hard to believe that he'd direct that to every single comic book fan in existance.


By "us" I mean comic book fans, not me or you personally. I thought that was obvious, unless you want to argue semantics. Point blank, I thought it was unprofessional and shouldnt have been said. And at this point were just going around in circles as we bring up the same points over and over again and refute them over and over again. Fanboys shouldn't be insulted, and he shouldnt be insulted by fanboys, its life. **** happens. This really wasnt worth making a federal case over in the first place, it just bothers me that some fans (not you, since you actually admit the comment shouldnt have been made) are so complacent that they dont care about anything, just that htye get to read their comics.


EDIT: And Bryan Hitch is famous, within the comicbook world which my whole post refers to, not the you know real world. And really youre reasons for not defending Paris Hilton for similar things is beyond me, contributing nothing to society is subjective, since most comic books, dont really contribute to anything, the same way Paris new single doesnt contribute anything.

[roach]

Business rule number one: The customer is always right

[Darthphere]

Business rule number one: The customer is always right


I always thought that it should be something more like :The customer should be made to believe he's right.:confused:

[roach]

I always thought that it should be something more like :The customer should be made to believe he's right.:confused:


regardless of what job you are in if you insult the customers you should be fired

[hippy fascist]

regardless of what job you are in if you insult the customers you should be fired

:up: :up: :up:

[Darthphere]

regardless of what job you are in if you insult the customers you should be fired


Semantics: I don't know if you should, but in the real world you would.

[Wolverazio]

Ok, you don't work in the public medium. But imagine having hundreds of Internet posters personally insulting you because you were late on something or didn't do something right? Regardless of whether you're in the public medium or not.

And I don't see what laying down three dollars for someones comic book has to do with them having every right to personally insult someone they never met over a story or a piece of artwork. They have a right to have an OPINION on the book but it's all right for people to throw around the name calling though? Which, by the terms of our completely out dated American Constitution, they have the right to do.

Aren't Hitch's delays due to the fact that his wife has cancer or something? Or some type of terminal disease? I think I read somewhere that his wife was severely ill which caused his delays.

Millar and McNiven apologized, ok. Hitch didn't. So what? Millar is writing it and McNiven is drawing it, they're connected. Hitch isn't, he's stating his opinion. I don't post over at newsarama or whatever other site it was posted at. But I'm sure there weren't too many pleasant things said about McNiven, Marvel, and others in general. And I'm guessing Hitch's comment was directed toward the utterly disrespectful people who truly think the world of comics should revolve around them, and not the entire community of fans.

Remember though. Comic books are fantasy and fictional. The Internet, while you may not be looking at the person or hearing their voice, it's still a real life human being in the really real world that you're talking to.

And I'm sure to a lot of these creators in comics today, who didn't grow up with the Internet and the constant barrage of comments daily about a book or company, it's frustrating to see people personally insulting you over your decision to have Character X do "this" or the fact that maybe your talent is running a bit behind schedule and suddenly you're a "dumb jerk" for that too. When, meanwhile, these people criticizing you have never drawn at all before or probably written a story before or ever ran a comic book company with about 50 to 60 years of history behind some of it's characters.

My whole point is the guy is allowed to have an opinion. He's not drawing the book or writing it. And, yes, he himself has had many delays on the book he's currently working on. Ok, people have taken that into account many times. But he's not allowed to say a WORD though? That means he has to sit there and read these outlandish posts from people who probably have no idea how this comic book business really works and yet they can go ahead and talk like they sit down and make comics of their own every single day? The dude was probably just sick and tired of hearing it.

If you don't like it so much then don't buy The Ultimates anymore. Or don't buy his work and then make him pay for it like that. Hey, maybe he's setting himself up for a serious reality check, that you can't joke with virginity toward a comic fan, it's such a touchy subject. But, that comic fan can call him an "arrogant bastard" and that's JUST FINE because they paid 2.99 for a comic book. :up:

Millar and McNiven were getting the same insults (and have in the past, etc.) and handled it pure class.

Hitch got pulled in and reacted like the fanboys he was decrying.

And no one's saying it's fine that anyone pulled/insulted Hitch. But like I said before, that doesn't make it right what he said.

Why are we still arguing about this?

[Darthphere]

Slow week.

[gildea]

Why are we still arguing about this?

Cos CW #4 was late.

We should be arguing about that ;)

[Darthphere]

Its no secret: Fill in debates suck.

[gildea]

Its no secret: Fill in debates suck.

darth that's possibly the funniest thing you'll ever type.

:)

[Darthphere]

Wow, really?

[gildea]

yup

[Darthphere]

Maybe I should retire then.

[hippy fascist]

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=81444

Civil war delays from the perspective of retailers.

The fact that marvel may not offer sale or return and cut some retailers discount as a result of this speaks volumes. Im not gonna complain about the lateness anymore but I will be e-mailing marvel personally about this and I urge you to do the same. If enough people contact them on behalf of retailers they might actually consider doing something. Otherwise I'm fairly sure they'll just ignore the issue. Let's be honest the delays suck but it's the retailers that are really losing here and we as readers should be supporting them.

[iloveclones]

I'm not even going to pretend that I understand how books are discounted, and whatnot, for the retailers. But if Marvel makes a deal predicated on a book shipping at a certain time, and they're late, retailers should be given an opportunity to back out on what they originally ordered if they want. There will be a dropoff in sales because of this, and the burden shouldn't be shifted to the retailers.

That said, these guys better be careful of biting the hand that feeds it. And I don't mean Marvel. Every time a retailer or salesperson *****es about Marvel to a customer, however justified, they could potentially be turning a customer off of reading. Some of them might just pick up other stuff, but some of them might just say, "That's it." Like it or not, but the retailers are in it with Marvel (and DC). When those upset customers come in, they should say, "Hey, I know it stinks, but have you tried (Fables, Invincible, Walking Dead, or any number of Marvel/DC comics).

[hippy fascist]

From what I can tell you have to order a certain number of books each month in order to reach each band of discount. Now if the books aren't there to be ordered then it's hardly fair for marvel to say say well you needed 500 books to get X% discount when even with order switching they won't be able to make up the drop off that not having these core titles willl result in. It's a stacked deck and it's out of line. Ultimately the retailers do need to keep marvel onside and if they **** up marvel isn't responsible, but equally the retailers aren't responsible for marvel's **** ups