Burgess Meredith or Danny Devito?

[Dark Phantom]

Which Penguin did you like best? State a reason why.

I chose Burgess Meredith simply because he gave inspiration to every writer's idea of Penguin. Heck, he invented that sqawk that has defined Penguin in comics and film. While the 60s tv show was very campy, Burgess Meredith made that role his own. Now when ever I watch Twilight Zone epsiodes or Rocky, all I think about is "that's Penguin".

And besides fans don't give him the credit he deserves.

[Bat Attack]

Danny Devito all the way. He's the Penguin I grew up watching.

[theShape]

Niether.





But I still voted for Burgess. :up:

[Kevin Roegele]

They're both absolutely fantastic.

However, DeVito and Burton's Penguin encorporated all the dapper, squarking monocle and top hat persona of Meredith's Penguin - but added so much more. DeVito gave an absolutely incredible performance that encompassed comedy, tragedy, disgust and sympathy. He went from broad comedy ("groping people" line), to genuine pathos (the churchyard scene with his parents grave), to true wickedness (sending the Penguins to "Punish all of Gotham!"). Tell me another movie supervillain who has had so many facets.

[Lex Luthor]

Hmm....

This is tough.

I suppose I'll pick Danny Devito's Penguin as my favourite.
Nothing wrong with the Meredith Penguin, as it is classic and is what alot of people still think of when thinking of The Penguin, but ultimately it's a bit too campy to really take seriously. Devito's Penguin is much more tragic, which makes him a much more interesting character. As well as one with a tremendous amount of more depth as well. It's obvious that Burton's version of The Penguin definately left an impression on many people working at DC, as he is usually seen as something of a mixture of the Meredith Penguin, and the Devito version. And for good reason.

I like both. But Devito's Penguin wins this hands down.

[Kevin Roegele]

Nothing wrong with the Meredith Penguin, as it is classic and is what alot of people still think of when thinking of The Penguin, but ultimately it's a bit too campy to really take seriously.

:huh: Well....of course, you're not supposed to take it seriously. It's supposed to be camp.

[theShape]

My only problem with DeVito's Penguin is that it's such a far cry from the real Penguin. I mean, I realize it does fit with Burton's world, but I didn't enjoy it so much. DeVito was still great, though.

[CConn]

They're both absolutely fantastic.

However, DeVito and Burton's Penguin encorporated all the dapper, squarking monocle and top hat persona of Meredith's Penguin - but added so much more. DeVito gave an absolutely incredible performance that encompassed comedy, tragedy, disgust and sympathy. He went from broad comedy ("groping people" line), to genuine pathos (the churchyard scene with his parents grave), to true wickedness (sending the Penguins to "Punish all of Gotham!"). Tell me another movie supervillain who has had so many facets.:up:

[Kevin Roegele]

My only problem with DeVito's Penguin is that it's such a far cry from the real Penguin.

It really isn't. The 'real' Penguin, i.e. the comic version, is all there in DeVito's Penguin. The movie just elaborates on that to a great degree, adds so much to it. The waddling, dapper crimeboss of the comics is completely a facet, but just one facet, of the DeVito Penguin.

[The Chairman]

They're both absolutely fantastic.

However, DeVito and Burton's Penguin encorporated all the dapper, squarking monocle and top hat persona of Meredith's Penguin - but added so much more. DeVito gave an absolutely incredible performance that encompassed comedy, tragedy, disgust and sympathy. He went from broad comedy ("groping people" line), to genuine pathos (the churchyard scene with his parents grave), to true wickedness (sending the Penguins to "Punish all of Gotham!"). Tell me another movie supervillain who has had so many facets.

I utterly agree with you. :up::up:

It really isn't. The 'real' Penguin, i.e. the comic version, is all there in DeVito's Penguin. The movie just elaborates on that to a great degree, adds so much to it. The waddling, dapper crimeboss of the comics is completely a facet, but just one facet, of the DeVito Penguin.

Once again, you're absolutely right. :up::up:

[theShape]

It really isn't. The 'real' Penguin, i.e. the comic version, is all there in DeVito's Penguin. The movie just elaborates on that to a great degree, adds so much to it. The waddling, dapper crimeboss of the comics is completely a facet, but just one facet, of the DeVito Penguin.

It's still a far cry from the real Penguin. Yes, certain aspects are present in DeVito's, but there was no need to make him an actual penguin-man, that was raised by penguins and spews black goo from his mouth.

If you think that's great, then that's your opinion. Like I said, it fits in Burton's world, but I would've preferred a darker take on the Penguin from the comics.

[The Joker]

I love them both so much. It's VERY hard to choose.

But I'll go with Meredith's version because I used to watch the 60's show all the time as a kid, and Meredith's Penguin was my fav villain on that show.

EDIT: A nice comparison pic here:

http://www.mediamob.co.kr/FDS/newBlogContent/2006/0329/tearsfor/00penguin.jpg

[Lex Luthor]

:huh: Well....of course, you're not supposed to take it seriously. It's supposed to be camp.

Even with the obvious camp aspects in much of comic-to-film adaptations, I can usually find something about the characters I could somewhat take seriously. My comment has more to do with The Penguin pre-Batman Returns in general rather than just Burgess Meredith's Penguin. Again, Meredith's Penguin is classic. And I enjoy it very much. But there wasnt much for me to take seriously as far as The Penguin is concerned in any media until Burton's Batman Returns made it's debut back in 1992. However, I am now aware that there were certain comics that attempted to give The Penguin a bit more depth than what was usually presented in Batman comics before BR, but unfortunately I wasnt able to get ahold of these issues until after the fact. Thankfully, Devito's interpretation of The Penguin wasnt too influenced by the Meredith Penguin. And that was a good thing I believe. :)

[Mee]

Waaaah waaaah waaaah!

Burgess.:up:

[Spidey-Bat]

It's still a far cry from the real Penguin. Yes, certain aspects are present in DeVito's, but there was no need to make him an actual penguin-man, that was raised by penguins and spews black goo from his mouth.

If you think that's great, then that's your opinion. Like I said, it fits in Burton's world, but I would've preferred a darker take on the Penguin from the comics.

Penguin in Returns wasn't dark :confused:

[theShape]

Penguin in Returns wasn't dark :confused:

He certainly was. I said I'd have preferred a darker take on the Penguin from the comics, not a half-man, half-penguin that spewed black goo. :up:

[Spidey-Bat]

It was a darker take and Penguin is from the comics, so I don't know what you're unhappy about :confused:

[theShape]

It was a darker take and Penguin is from the comics, so I don't know what you're unhappy about :confused:

Let me spell this out for you.

What I'm trying to say is that I would have preferred a dark take on the Penguin without all of the additions that were made in order to make him even more dark. Do you understand?

An eloquent and sophisticated mobster of sorts. Not a deformed psychopath.

[batboy99]

danny,im more into the gothic tim burton things but Burgess was still great

[Dark Phantom]

Let me spell this out for you.

What I'm trying to say is that I would have preferred a dark take on the Penguin without all of the additions that were made in order to make him even more dark. Do you understand?

An eloquent and sophisticated mobster of sorts. Not a deformed psychopath.

yes:up:

You see most other fans won't realize this because they look at Danny Devito's Penguin as the definitive Penguin. But he's not. They're reading more recent Penguin stories that try to recreate the character.
Go back to reading some of the early Penguin stories from the 40s and 60s. That's the true character to develop on film. Just eliminate the camp and you have yourselves the ideal Penguin portrayl.

Meredith is closest to the ideal portrayl, if it wasn't for the fact that the 60s show was campy.

Mind you, I'm 15 years old. Yet, I still read the comics from yester year.

[Spidey-Bat]

Let me spell this out for you.

What I'm trying to say is that I would have preferred a dark take on the Penguin without all of the additions that were made in order to make him even more dark. Do you understand?

You originally said you wanted a darker take on Penguin which was in Returns.

An eloquent and sophisticated mobster of sorts. Not a deformed psychopath.

Penguin wasn't an eloquent, sophisticated mobster in the comics. He was a petty thief who stole bird-themed artifacts from museums and millionaires. Do you honestly think that could have carried a movie?

[theShape]

It's still a far cry from the real Penguin. Yes, certain aspects are present in DeVito's, but there was no need to make him an actual penguin-man, that was raised by penguins and spews black goo from his mouth.

If you think that's great, then that's your opinion. Like I said, it fits in Burton's world, but I would've preferred a darker take on the Penguin from the comics.

That's what I originally said, buddy.


Penguin wasn't an eloquent, sophisticated mobster in the comics. He was a petty thief who stole bird-themed artifacts from museums and millionaires. Do you honestly think that could have carried a movie?


Obviously you know nothing about the Penguin. So check this out and learn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Penguin

[theShape]

yes:up:

You see most other fans won't realize this because they look at Danny Devito's Penguin as the definitive Penguin. But he's not. They're reading more recent Penguin stories that try to recreate the character.
Go back to reading some of the early Penguin stories from the 40s and 60s. That's the true character to develop on film. Just eliminate the camp and you have yourselves the ideal Penguin portrayl.

Meredith is closest to the ideal portrayl, if it wasn't for the fact that the 60s show was campy.

Mind you, I'm 15 years old. Yet, I still read the comics from yester year.


Thank you. :up:

[El Payaso]

It's still a far cry from the real Penguin.

That's the best part of it.

[Two-Face]

Danny DeVito played great Penguin but I didn't like how he was living the Gotham sewers pretty sick I think.

[theShape]

Obviously you know nothing about the Penguin. So check this out and learn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Penguin

Spidey-Bat, did you do your research??

[The Joker]

One thing I wish DeVito's Penguin had done was puff on the cigarette holder. That was one of my favorite traits of Meredith's Penguin. He was always blowing out huge plumes of smoke from his cigarette holder.

Its one of the Penguin's infamous traits. And it actually contributed to the sqwaking quacks Meredith came up with, because he used to cough sometimes because of the smoke, and he covered it up with the bird like sqwaks.

[Lex Luthor]

Yeah that would have been pretty cool to see. From what I remember, the closest Devito's Penguin looked like the Meredith Penguin was that campaign poster that read "Vote Cobblepot" or something. His pose, and appearance in that poster was somewhat similar to what we were used to seeing The Penguin look like. But thats about it.

[Bat Attack]

Merediths Penguin had a better quack IMO, it was loud and disturbing. "WHACK! WHAAACK!!!, EXCELLENT! WHACK!!"

[Buttman]

That's the best part of it.
Ohhh.. bad thing to say on a comic forum.

I went with Burgess, as he's more like the Penguin from the comics.

[Kevin Roegele]

I went with Burgess, as he's more like the Penguin from the comics.

Why does that make it better?

If the Batman comics, which have been published since 1939, have a right to evolve and alter the Penguin's character - and they have - why do the Batman movies not have the same right?

[El Payaso]

Some things in comics are no good. As in everything.

[theShape]

Why does that make it better?

If the Batman comics, which have been published since 1939, have a right to evolve and alter the Penguin's character - and they have - why do the Batman movies not have the same right?

We know you're views about how the movies shouldn't be exactly like the comic book, and I agree for the most part. But this is his own opinion.

I also would have preferred a more direct adaptation to the comics Penguin, rather than a deformed, psychipath circus freak. It's just our opinion.

[Bathead]

Besides, the whole point of doing an adaptation is to bring the source material to life. Unlike some of you, I liked the original concept of the Penguin. He was never meant as a serious villain in the first place. He was comedic relief. What Burton did was change the Penguin to his liking, just like what the producers for the Catwoman movie did. Basically, it was PINO.

[CConn]

Obviously you know nothing about the Penguin. So check this out and learn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_PenguinActually, in the original comics, I'm pretty sure he was just what Spidey-Bat said he was. Yet, I'm unsure if he became the more intelligent, mobster Penguin of the current comics before or after BR came out.

[CConn]

Besides, the whole point of doing an adaptation is to bring the source material to life. Unlike some of you, I liked the original concept of the Penguin. He was never meant as a serious villain in the first place. He was comedic relief. What Burton did was change the Penguin to his liking, just like what the producers for the Catwoman movie did. Basically, it was PINO.Penguin's a pretty serious villain in the comics now...

[Spidey-Bat]

That's what I originally said, buddy.

You didn't say you didn't want the mutant qualities of him.

Obviously you know nothing about the Penguin. So check this out and learn:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Penguin

It doesn't seem you have since all you did was post a link to wikipedia. You didn't even put an excerpt for me to look at and prove me wrong.

Regardless, Penguin was most famous for being a petty theif resembling a penguin who had a perchant for stealing bird-themed trinkets and using bird-themed gadgets. He was without a doubt one of the lamest villians in Batman's Rogues Gallery. Returns and BTAS were responsible for starting his reform to a deeper, more interesting character.

[theShape]

You didn't say you didn't want the mutant qualities of him.

Why did I have to? I thought saying "I would have preferred a dark take on the Penguin from the comics" pretty much summed that up. Did I really have to say "I would have preferred the Penguin from the comics, who was not a deranged, mutant, psychopathic circus freak"?



It doesn't seem you have since all you did was post a link to wikipedia. You didn't even put an excerpt for me to look at and prove me wrong.

Regardless, Penguin was most famous for being a petty theif resembling a penguin who had a perchant for stealing bird-themed trinkets and using bird-themed gadgets. He was without a doubt one of the lamest villians in Batman's Rogues Gallery. Returns and BTAS were responsible for starting his reform to a deeper, more interesting character.

I guess that means you didn't read it. So here's what you need to know, buddy:

The Penguin (Oswald Chesterfield Cobblepot), is a DC Comics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Comics) supervillain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervillain) and an enemy of Batman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman). Created by artist Bill Finger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Finger) (although Batman creator Bob Kane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Kane) is credited by DC), he first appeared in Detective Comics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detective_Comics) #58 (December 1941 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941#December)).
In most incarnations, The Penguin is a short, chubby man who wears a tuxedo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuxedo) and top hat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_hat). A mobster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobster)-type criminal, he fancies himself a "gentleman of crime." Unlike most Batman villains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enemies_of_Batman), he does not theme his crimes around a psychotic obsession; his intelligence and aristocratic personality starkly contrast against demented Batman villains, such as the Joker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joker_%28comics%29).
The Penguin does however possess a few eccentricities. He is known for his love of birds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird) and his high-tech umbrellas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbrella) that serve some specialized function, such as hang-gliding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hang-gliding) and weaponry. He also keeps beautiful women around him; perhaps to remind others of his monetary power or to compensate for his own grotesqueness.
Burgess Meredith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgess_Meredith) popularized the Penguin in the 1960s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960s) Batman television series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28TV_series%29), partially because of his signature squawking laughter. Danny DeVito (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_DeVito) played a much darker version of the character in the 1992 film Batman Returns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_Returns). This version was not just an unattractive criminal but a physically deformed megalomaniac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalomaniac). Subsequent Batman animated series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animated_series) have alternately featured the deformed Penguin and a more traditional version.
The deformed version of the character has also appeared in comics, most notably in the miniseries, Batman: The Long Halloween (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_The_Long_Halloween), and its sequel, Dark Victory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Dark_Victory). He only appears for a minor cameo at the end of the Long Halloween, and has no lines. He plays a slightly more notable role in Dark Victory, when Batman goes to him for information. This incarnation also added elements of the 1966 TV series character, as he shouted the well known "waugh waugh" while talking.

-----

Born Oswald Cobblepot, The Penguin was teased very much in childhood due to his short stature, obesity, and bird-like nose. These traits made him an outcast in his rich, debutante family. Their rejection drove him to become a violent criminal. One story claims the Penguin and his mother owned a pet shop, and he became a criminal after neighborhood bullies murdered all the animals in the shop, including his beloved birds. In keeping with his family's tradition of wealth, the Penguin lives a life of crime and evil, yet executes it with his own self proclaimed high society (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialite) class and style. He commits crimes with the theme of the various birds he loves.
Unlike most of the Batman villains, The Penguin is a gentleman villain, in control of his own actions and perfectly sane, features that serve to maintain a unique relationship with his archenemy, Batman. This has extended into the current situation with The Penguin ceasing his direct involvement in crime, instead running a nightclub that is popular with the underworld. As such, he is an excellent source of information on crime and Batman grudgingly tolerates his operations because of that. However, the entrepreneurial Penguin is often fencing stolen property or arranging early furloughs for incarcerated former criminal associates - for a hefty fee, of course - on the side. During the period when Gotham City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotham_City) was leveled by an earthquake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake), he was one of the major players in the mostly-abandoned and lawless city, using his connections (one was eventually discovered to be tied to Lex Luthor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Luthor) and his company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LexCorp)) to sell necessities at outrageous prices (See also: "No Man's Land (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Man%27s_Land_%28comics%29)").
The Penguin's trademarks are the various deadly umbrellas he uses to execute his evil plans. Several stories affirm that he was forced as a child to always carry an umbrella by his over-protective mother, due to his father dying of pneumonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumonia) after being drenched in a downpour. In keeping with his pretensions of being a refined gentleman, he also prefers to wear formal wear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_wear) such as a top hat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_hat) and tuxedo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuxedo) during his jobs.
The Penguin received his alias from a childhood nickname, bestowed by his peers, who teased him because of his grotesque appearance and love of birds (retellings of his origin suggest he also suffered from some sort of hip ailment, which caused him to waddle when he walked. The Penguin shows no signs of suffering from this affliction today). Some comics suggest that he tried to abandon the nickname, which he hates, but it has been permanently brought into popularity by his high-profile criminal career. He has cashed in on its popularity with his "Iceberg Lounge" night club.
In the 1960s TV Batman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_%28TV_series%29) series, the only available information on his early life is that he was once an actor. A frequent expression of Penguin on Batman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman) was "Great Quivering Icebergs." Although called a "Pompous waddling master of foul play", Penguin thinks of himself as an "Aristocrat of Crime." On one episode, when Penguin tried to get himself taken back into prison by committing obvious crimes as part of a greater plan, he is extremely furious when the Batman has him locked up in the city jail as a "common criminal" for violating a Gotham City ordnance. Penguin's thugs wear black bowlers with dark clothing with names of various animals of prey being either birds ("Hawk") or fish ("Shark").

[Spidey-Bat]

Why did I have to? I thought saying "I would have preferred a dark take on the Penguin from the comics" pretty much summed that up. Did I really have to say "I would have preferred the Penguin from the comics, who was not a deranged, mutant, psychopathic circus freak"?

Would it have been harder to say that?

I guess that means you didn't read it. So here's what you need to know, buddy:
You do know most of Penguins revisions were from works that were done after Returns was being made.

[theShape]

You do know most of Penguins revisions were from works that were done after Returns was being made.

Yes, and most of those revisions were to make him more like he was in Returns. C'mon now. He was still an eloquent, sophisticated criminal long before Returns was made.

You still haven't read the article, have you?

[CConn]

You still haven't read the article, have you?I read it all. And commented on it. You ignored my post. Even Bathead (who I think is a pretty old school reader) said he was originally just comic relief.

[Dr. Fate]

I don't want to choose.

[Kevin Roegele]

...

[Kevin Roegele]

...

[Kevin Roegele]

Besides, the whole point of doing an adaptation is to bring the source material to life.

Is it? Or is it to tell the story in a different medium? Don't assume the two are the same thing, because they are not.

[CConn]

I like how you added that element of suspense with those two "..." posts before your real one.

[Dark Phantom]

Is it? Or is it to tell the story in a different medium? Don't assume the two are the same thing, because they are not.

:confused: telling a story in a different medium doesn't mean you have to change it dramatically from the source material. Its not mandatory, just a preference by the person directing because that's his vision of the source material.

Look at "Bat in the sun", they told Batman stories in a different medium without having to make it "work" on screen. Adapting comics to film doesn't have to make dramatic changes.

[batmaluco]

I prefer Danny DeVito's version.

[spdrknight]

Devito all the way. The penguin from the comic, before Burton's film, was just this goofy guy with umbrillas. Burton and Devito gave the character depth and personality.

[Kevin Roegele]

:confused: telling a story in a different medium doesn't mean you have to change it dramatically from the source material. Its not mandatory, just a preference by the person directing because that's his vision of the source material.

First of all, I don't consider Batman Returns a dramatic change from the source material.

Secondly, you have to take each case as it comes when it comes to adapting it to film. Something like Gormenghast or The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy or even the video game Super Mario Brothers simply need don't translate easily.


Look at "Bat in the sun", they told Batman stories in a different medium without having to make it "work" on screen. Adapting comics to film doesn't have to make dramatic changes.

Bat in the Sun makes short fan films for fans, who know who the characters and the stories are beforehand. Mainstream Hollywood movies have to appeal to, and be accessible to, the general audience. They are two completely different demographics. Sit a non-fan in front of a Bat in the Sun project and they'll be impressed by the costumes, but have no idea what is going on, laugh and loose interest quickly.

[Carmine Falcone]

Danny DeVito ofcourse. IMO it's his best performance by far, because he usually plays the same role over and over again. Penguin is something really different.

[WhiteRat]

Thats simple as pie.Burgess Meridith.Devito who is normally great in all his movies was really really stupid in this movie.His acting was horrible.He was trying way too hard to be funny but was not funny at all and his makeup as penguin.one word-yuck.He was the biggest cancer to that movie.I blame it mostly on Burton though because he was the director and Devito was just going by what he told him to do and he was also the one that approved of his costume and makeup.

[Bat Attack]

Thats simple as pie.Burgess Meridith.Devito who is normally great in all his movies was really really stupid in this movie.His acting was horrible.He was trying way too hard to be funny but was not funny at all and his makeup as penguin.one word-yuck.He was the biggest cancer to that movie.I blame it mostly on Burton though because he was the director and Devito was just going by what he told him to do and he was also the one that approved of his costume and makeup.
Wow, how did I see that coming? :o

[newwaveboy87]

i love Danny DeVito as The Penguin. the demented take on the character, how tragic he was, i loved everything about it.