Explained: Entitlements/Copy-Protection/etc

[imdaly]

http://www.neogaf.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=32


I haven't finished reading this yet, it's long, and my lunch break is just about up, but I think everyone here would really like to read this article up here.

It explains a lot of what's coming up for PS3 such as Entitlements (apparently they're the equivalent of "Marketplace Points", not "Achievements"), how the copy-protection works (remember the controvercial rumors a few months back?? Yeahhh.....), etc.


I will not comment on them until I get to finish reading the whole thing, but I'm sure people on both sides will have lots to say about all this.




Aaaaaaaand GO! :D

[Avalanche]

I got a couple of paragraphs in, and got very bored.

Does anyone want to summarise, so I don't have to read this endless, boring crap myself?

[WhatsHisFace]

Basically it's a complete ripoff of Xbox Live, only not nearly as good and everything has a stupid name.

[Zenien]

If you're going to copy, copy the best. I like the feature of being able to record your gameplay in realtime and upload it.

I actually ...sort of... like the idea about used game sales, since I'd rather be giving it back to the companies then the greedy EB who play their games, reseal them and sell them as new, and also keep all the profit from any used game sale.

[AgentDenton]

If you're going to copy, copy the best features of the best, which is not what they're doing. And the feature you just talked about is useless, who wants to see someone else playing a game that probably has better, professional trailers out by the time people are playing it and making videos :confused:

I didn't read the rest, patent talk bores me to tears. Anything even remotely useful in there?

[imdaly]

Here's the deal in a nutshell, from what I've taken:

Everytime you buy a game and put it in your PS3, the system will assign that copy of the game to your PS3. The game will now only work in THAT PS3 and THAT PS3 only. Have a friend want to borrow your game? Too bad. Unless he "buys" it off of you and has PSOnline transfer the disc's rights to your system, the disc will not work.

The Sony Spin on this is that they're trying to make it look like they're doing you a favor. They basically say "You know how your MGS eventually gets to the point where you no longer play it anymore, and just starts collecting dust on your shelf? Well we're giving you a way to get money back from it by selling it to someone else, and letting THEM enjoy such a grand game! Cool, huh?!"

Well apparently they want us to forget that we've ALWAYS been able to sell games back to other places to get a bit of money back for the copies whenever we got bored with them. Now, they've taken away our choice of where to sell it to, and forced us to use Sony's online service as the middleman.

You can no longer let a friend simply borrow a game to see if it's any good. If they want to play the game on their system, they either have to buy a copy of their own, or buy your copy off of you. No sharing. If you decide to sell your copy to your friend, you will be paid in "Entitlements" (PS3's version of Marketplace Points). So you can sell your old games to gain points toward buying some other PS3 product, but not for simple cash. Sony wants to make sure that money stays with them.

Now the big question I have is...how will this work unless EVERY PS3 is connected to Sony's servers?? If my PS3's not connected to the net, how can MY PS3 know if this copy of MGS4 is attatched to YOUR PS3 or not already? It really can't, and the way the patent is worded, it doesn't even take that into account. If it doesn't see the "rights" to the disc on the system it's playing in, it automatically checks the Sony servers, whether it's connected or not. You cannot play your PS3 game until it is registered to that console by being registered on Sony's servers. That REALLY has me wondering what happens to those without internet yet. How will they get to play their games??

Oh, and there's also a broad mention of Transfer Fees when "selling" a game to a friend. What this could definitely mean is that when you sell your game to your friend for, say, $10, there could be an extra $2 or so transfer fee added on top of that, to go to either Sony or the game developer. Perhaps it's like Ebay, where a certain percent of the selling price goes to the middleman.


That's pretty much the jist of what I got from the article.

Simply put: Goodbye to borrowing PS3 games with friends for a day or so. Goodbye to renting PS3 games from anywhere. Goodbye to having a choice on where to sell back games to places. And perhaps even, Goodbye to being allowed to play your PS3 if it isn't hooked up to Sony Online.



Sorry, but I see no good to come of this.

[TrailerCues]

Everytime you buy a game and put it in your PS3, the system will assign that copy of the game to your PS3. The game will now only work in THAT PS3 and THAT PS3 only. Have a friend want to borrow your game? Too bad. Unless he "buys" it off of you and has PSOnline transfer the disc's rights to your system, the disc will not work.

They actually are doing that ? This should be interesting this alone can be the downfall of the PS3. No rentals of PS3 games

[Zenien]

The idea is this:

1) You buy a game. Sony makes money.

2) You sell a game to GameStop right now, and they give you some money, spendable at GameStop, or if you choose, cash. You make money.

3) GameStop sells that game to somebody else. GameStop makes money.

Sony essentially is replacing step 2 and 3 here with one nice little condensed step.

2b) You sell a game to a friend. Your friend does not pay you in cash. He puts the game in his system, and the system checks for authorization. If you have authorized the sale, your friend pays a used game price (to Sony) of which you recieve a percentage in entitlement points (spendable only to Sony). Sony makes money x 2.

If you are now thinking “well when I play some games I will not be on-line with the console” to side-step the problem then think again as it is not such a difficult proposition to cache data on a permanent storage device included with every console ( I am looking at you PLAYSTATION 3’s HDD).

The Content of the disc cannot be accessed by the user console unless, upon completion of the “registration” process mentioned earlier in the article, the Host Server submits access permission.

The DISC UNIQUE ID 230 uniquely identifies the disc 110. The contents of the disc 110 cannot be played on the user console 115 or other devices without access permission for the disc 110.

[Zenien]

That's why I said sort of, I hate it that the money all goes to the greedy retailers, but this system doesn't solve the problem it just changes it a bit.

Though it is just a patent, not law.

[imdaly]

I don't think that would work, you would have to have a Blu-Ray writer in the PS3 wouldnt you? How else would you tell the disc "ok, from now on, only read from HERE"?

They could include a unique Reg. Key # inside each copy of a game that requires you to enter in the code each time you try to play it, like they do with PC games?

[TrailerCues]

The idea is this:

1) You buy a game. Sony makes money.

2) You sell a game to GameStop right now, and they give you some money, spendable at GameStop, or if you choose, cash. You make money.

3) GameStop sells that game to somebody else. GameStop makes money.

Sony essentially is replacing step 2 and 3 here with one nice little condensed step.

2b) You sell a game to a friend. Your friend does not pay you in cash. He puts the game in his system, and the system checks for authorization. If you have authorized the sale, your friend pays a used game price (to Sony) of which you recieve a percentage in entitlement points (spendable only to Sony). Sony makes money x 2.

If you are now thinking “well when I play some games I will not be on-line with the console” to side-step the problem then think again as it is not such a difficult proposition to cache data on a permanent storage device included with every console ( I am looking at you PLAYSTATION 3’s HDD).

The Content of the disc cannot be accessed by the user console unless, upon completion of the “registration” process mentioned earlier in the article, the Host Server submits access permission.

The DISC UNIQUE ID 230 uniquely identifies the disc 110. The contents of the disc 110 cannot be played on the user console 115 or other devices without access permission for the disc 110.

It is still a very crappy idea & not even you can justify it Zenien. For such an expensive console I can imagine people making the stupid decision & actually buying such an expensive console & then choosing to want to rent games first. But with Sony taking away that option this decision will only hurt the PS3. No one would want to buy a game they are not sure they would like. I can not wait to see & hear bout the number of PS3 returns. This decision is based on Sony being greedy ****s

[imdaly]

And just like PC games, any half decent coder will have it cracked and broken in two weeks or less, that wouldn't solve anything either, just promote piracy. "Hey, if I'm already cracking it so I can play it for cheaper, I may as well take the next step and play it for nothing...."

The difference is, though, that the PS3 checks online first to make sure that nobody else is using that key already. If the PS3 cannot confirm that the key is still available, it won't let you play it.

[EXCELSIOR]

Axid,
Cripes man... there is no reason for this!
Take a couple of days off!

CM

garry's mod garry's mod garry's mod garry's mod garry's mod garry's mod garry's mod garry's mod garry's mod garry's mod garry's mod garry's mod!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Axid]

Can I have a squeeky toy while I'm gone, please?

[XwolverineX]

Wow, Sony = ****ing annoying.

[hippie_hunter]

There is no way this can be true. Such a system would be suicide for the Playstation 3

[블라스]

Nah, this really can't be what they're doing.
It sounds too ridiculous to be true.

[imdaly]

There is no way this can be true. Such a system would be suicide for the Playstation 3
Nah, this really can't be what they're doing.
It sounds too ridiculous to be true.

It's true, unfortunately. Found the patent on the internet patent database:
http://www.patentdebate.com/PATAPP/20060069752


Now will they actually put this in effect?? We'll soon find out.

[블라스]

Holy crap? :confused:
Wow :down

[XwolverineX]

Yeah, this is really unbelievable.

[imdaly]

Here's some more wood for the fire:




What happens, if this is implemented, if your PS3 breaks?? Do you have to somehow rebuy your games again to play them on your new console??

[Mentok]

Enjoy your 'FREE ONLINE GAMING' :o

:rolleyes:

[THE LIZARD#1]

I am entitled to bragging ahahahahahahah, oh man that slays.

[imdaly]

I think I'm "entitled" to give/sell my games to whoever I want to give/sell them to for however much I want.

[Panophobia]

This sounds absolutely horrible! Let's hope they don't use it.

[THE LIZARD#1]

Hahahahah dude this entitlement thing rocks, we can make so many jokes out of it like we did with the Wii, however I don't even want to read what the entitlements are because I don't want to get mad, so I'm being ignorant.

[Zenien]

It is still a very crappy idea & not even you can justify it Zenien. For such an expensive console I can imagine people making the stupid decision & actually buying such an expensive console & then choosing to want to rent games first. But with Sony taking away that option this decision will only hurt the PS3. No one would want to buy a game they are not sure they would like. I can not wait to see & hear bout the number of PS3 returns. This decision is based on Sony being greedy ****s


Like I said I'm not supporting it. Ideally the developer of the game would get some of that money, extremely ideally, but I don't support lazy ass cheap skates who only buy games used (thereby cutting out the developer and the publisher) who then hide behind their right as a consumer to buy the cheaper product. If a game is being resold, the developers and publishers should get a cut of that, not the greedy store.

[블라스]

Some of my games were bought used :cmad: :( :csad: x the maxxx :down

[Mentok]

You tell em Blas! :cmad:

You going to be on live in the morning?

[블라스]

Yup!

How early should I be there?

[Mentok]

Yup!

How early should I be there?

I dont know :(

[블라스]

LOL my mom is making hot dogs for lunch tomorrow!

[Zenien]

Some of my games were bought used :cmad: :( :csad: x the maxxx :down

And it's not the consumers right to buy used games that I dislike, but how the money made from those used games are distributed. All to the greedy retailers and none to the company that spent millions and years developing the titles.

[WhatsHisFace]

That's why you bought Shemnue 2 used I guess. Thanks a lot, Hitler.

[Mentok]

So people still think sony will let them play online for free?

They want to charge you a fee on software you already own :down

[Zenien]

Only if you're planning on selling it, if anything it's tactics like this that would enable free online, right? I'm not saying it's perfect, because it sure isn't.

Companies file patents all the time to the point of it being ludicrous, so it remains to be seen if this particular patent pans out.

But if it does, that's pretty stupid, I think the only reason I don't outright hate the concept of the money being restricted to PNP points is because at least it takes the money out of the hands of greedy EB, taht's like, objectively speaking, the only reason.

[TrailerCues]

the developers and publishers should get a cut of that, not the greedy store.

Why dont you let the game developers complain about this. Your not a game developer your not getting any of their money & what do you think will happen when people come across this & do not like the idea at all ? This has a very good 98 % chance or so of doing nothing but hurt the PS3. Why dont you simply defend games you like like normal gamers ? You have no right fighting other peoples wars let them do it.

[GoldenAgeHero]

Like I said I'm not supporting it. Ideally the developer of the game would get some of that money, extremely ideally, but I don't support lazy ass cheap skates who only buy games used (thereby cutting out the developer and the publisher) who then hide behind their right as a consumer to buy the cheaper product. If a game is being resold, the developers and publishers should get a cut of that, not the greedy store.


shut the hell up:cmad: and it is indeed our right as a consumer to buy cheaper games if you want. neither you or anyone else can prove either wise. if publishers want some money. they should start charging sites like amazon and half.com for fees for games sold.

[GoldenAgeHero]

And it's not the consumers right to buy used games that I dislike, but how the money made from those used games are distributed. All to the greedy retailers and none to the company that spent millions and years developing the titles.

i agree with this, but to say it is'nt the consumers right to buy a cheaper game is stupid. if the game is used why the **** would i pay full price for it? thats like buying a half eaten sneakers bar for full price while a brand new one costs the same thing. what kinda of logic are you promoting?!

[TrailerCues]

[quote=GoldenAgeHero]if publishers want some money. they should[/qluote]

Make games cheaper & then more would buy them it is as simple as that. The game companies are to blame here not us. This can be compared to what is going on with Music CDs most do not buy them unless they feel (((it is worth it))). So if you blame anyone about people choosing to buy the cheaper product or renting blame the game companies. Zenien you probably do not understand the concept of try before you buy & most like that & want that choice & if the game company wants to truly fight it the only way to do that is to lower the prices this decision will only hurt Sony & the PS3 & you know it

[XwolverineX]

A rental store just opened up here, I buy used games, I return games for money, and me and my friends exhange games. As much as I hate it, I think I might go... * Gulp * Wii60.

[Zenien]

I don't know how I would feel about it IF it actually happens, patents area dime a thousand.

And it's not like the used games market would dissapear under this new system, your authentication key would have to be managed for the new user, but that's it.

i agree with this, but to say it is'nt the consumers right to buy a cheaper game is stupid. if the game is used why the **** would i pay full price for it? thats like buying a half eaten sneakers bar for full price while a brand new one costs the same thing. what kinda of logic are you promoting?!


The only thing that gets 'used' with a used game is it gets put in a drive and someone touches a manual, it's not like the data on the disc becomes unoptimized with use or anything. At worst there might be a scratch or two, and if its so scratched that the game won't work, the person buying a used game should know the risks in that case. 90 percent of the time the disc is fine anyway, and when bought at EB or whatnot they o check to make sure the used games work.

I'm not saying that consumers don't have the right to be oportunistic cheapskates, but it's BS the way the the money is distributed from those sales. I don't buy used games from stores for just that reason. I think a more controlled system (not as controlled as Sony's limiting the buying and the form of monetary exchange) that ensures some of that money goes back to the developers is a good thing. There are plenty of developers who aren't EA.

[GoldenAgeHero]

I don't know how I would feel about it IF it actually happens, patents area dime a thousand.

And it's not like the used games market would dissapear under this new system, your authentication key would have to be managed for the new user, but that's it.




The only thing that gets 'used' with a used game is it gets put in a drive and someone touches a manual, it's not like the data on the disc becomes unoptimized with use or anything. At worst there might be a scratch or two, and if its so scratched that the game won't work, the person buying a used game should know the risks in that case. 90 percent of the time the disc is fine anyway, and when bought at EB or whatnot they o check to make sure the used games work.

I'm not saying that consumers don't have the right to be oportunistic cheapskates, but it's BS the way the the money is distributed from those sales. I don't buy used games from stores for just that reason. I think a more controlled system (not as controlled as Sony's limiting the buying and the form of monetary exchange) that ensures some of that money goes back to the developers is a good thing. There are plenty of developers who aren't EA.

how the hell is it oppertunistic? buying things at a cheaper price is part of the economy, thats why stores all over the ****in country have sales, especially around the holidays, thats what keep the stores alive and helps make them ass loads of money( i can bet 100 bucks you go to those sales). its what keep the economy thriving. thats why car dealerships have special deals on buying cars, because they know people would go for it. If you were running this country are economy would've been f'ed up more so then it is now.

and for the love of god zenien everything depreciates in value no matter what it is. and therefore makes the value of the item less then its original price, once again...this is taught in economics, did you fail that course?


yeah EA is'nt the only one around, lets see we have ubisoft,konami, rare,capcom,etc. they make plenty of money, and apparently have assloads more to keep them afloat. its not our fault atari is going bankrupt, they have no ****in worthy franchises, that even makes them worth buying.


and amidst all your *****ing of companies not getting any profit, where they **** are they hunh? i dont see them biatching, about the subject.

like i said if companies wanted to see some profit they should charge the stores and sites such as amazon and half.com for fees. you see how easy and logical this sounds zenien compared to your nonsense?

btw zenien congratulations on condradicting yourself, repeatedly you've been saying that you'll wait for the ps3 to drop in price....well are'nt you being an opportunistic cheapskate?..................oh the irony

[THE LIZARD#1]

Hey Golden, I like your avy, who is that?

[WhatsHisFace]

How does this copy protection work? Is it the same thing that will keep you from borrowing a game from a friend?

[GoldenAgeHero]

yes!! read the article.

[GoldenAgeHero]

Hey Golden, I like your avy, who is that?


his name is damage, a comic book character and a new member to the JSA comics, coming out in december. read it!!

[THE LIZARD#1]

^Dude that guy looks tight as hell.

[GoldenAgeHero]

yeah he does.

[THE LIZARD#1]

Is there a preview of him anywhere?

[Mankar Camoran]

I think we're all talking about nothing here. There's no way this would make it into the PS3, it would be market suicide, it would give retail outlets a big reason to hold a grudge against the system and kindly inform customers of their other, cheaper options, and we would have heard about it before now.

[GoldenAgeHero]

yeah, go look in the justice society of America thread in the comics forum, then click on dc comics. whenyou find the thread, go to the last page and click back at least 2 pages or 3.

[Zenien]

useless rambling

I have no problem with stores doing sales, but in the realm of video games, if the developer isn't seeing a return for each sale then I have a problem with that. They're are tons of people who contribute nothing back to the companies who spent all the money to make the games, and that's not how the system is suppose to work. Giving the publishers a cut of what EB makes on used games sales isn't going to close them down, adn it's fair.

and for the love of god zenien everything depreciates in value no matter what it is.

Yeah but your analogy was ****. http://media.teamxbox.com/forum/smilies/lol.gif

and therefore makes the value of the item less then its original price, once again...this is taught in economics,

Yeah thanks for stating the obvious, I mean you'd think some people didn't already know that or something by the way you're talking, but if you've read everything people have been saying no one showed that ignorance, so...


yeah EA is'nt the only one around, lets see we have ubisoft,konami, rare,capcom,etc. they make plenty of money, and apparently have assloads more to keep them afloat.

Listing nothing but the conglomerate companies ftw? Oh yeah, the big publishers have money to keep them afloat, thanks for that shatteringly concise insight into the economics of the video game industry, truely we are smarter for having listened to you.

its not our fault atari is going bankrupt, they have no ****in worthy franchises, that even makes them worth buying.

Well Atari's problem is more in cost control, but we're diverging here. If you only can cite Atari as an example of a company with Financial issues, then you don't really understand the scope of the issue.


and amidst all your *****ing of companies not getting any profit, where they **** are they hunh?

"Hunh"? WTF? http://media.teamxbox.com/forum/smilies/lol.gif

i dont see them biatching, about the subject.

Yeah because they've only been *****ing about it for a while, and Nintendo and Sony have only repeatedly tried to take the sale of used games sales to court over the past ten years. And all the companies I'm talking about thzt ran into financial problems are either shut down, bought up. Y'know, following basic ecinomics of what happens when their games (particularly in the PC space) are pirated to hell, or sold used a ton with sales that would of otherwise been putting money back to the developer.

like i said if companies wanted to see some profit they should charge the stores and sites such as amazon and half.com for fees. you see how easy and logical this sounds zenien compared to your nonsense?

"Wah wah wah! I don't like the idea of used games sales having some monitored aspect that allows the companies that spent the money to get a return"

Either it could be a policy changes in the stores or it could be some form of much more open version of what Sony is suggesting.

And your comment about charging the stores and such for fees is exactly the avenue I was alluding to Genius. http://media.teamxbox.com/forum/smilies/lol.gif

Sorry, did I offend you by saying "Oportunistic cheapskate"? http://media.teamxbox.com/forum/smilies/lol.gif I mean that's so great of you to get pissed off at me using that terminology and going on this long rant about the nature of the price drop spuring sales with stores and retail and thinking that I don't GET that? Ignoring for a moment that I wasn't argueing the validity of the price dropping tactic at all and that it's actually the context of the sales and the infastructure of the retail chain that ultimatetly decides the unseen 'morality' of consumer purchase.

[THE LIZARD#1]

yeah, go look in the justice society of America thread in the comics forum, then click on dc comics. whenyou find the thread, go to the last page and click back at least 2 pages or 3.

Tight thanks man.

[GoldenAgeHero]

I have no problem with stores doing sales, but in the realm of video games, if the developer isn't seeing a return for each sale then I have a problem with that. They're are tons of people who contribute nothing back to the companies who spent all the money to make the games, and that's not how the system is suppose to work. Giving the publishers a cut of what EB makes on used games sales isn't going to close them down, adn it's fair.

thats the problem with your logic, the video game realm is not ****ing different from any business out there nor is it special. Which is probably the bumbest thought process I've ever read. tons of clothing/apparel are donated to the red cross and salvation army, does that mean the original manufactures should charge the person recieving the donated clothing? because afterall theyre not seeing a profit that tons of cheap labor help get made.

Yeah but your analogy was ****. http://media.teamxbox.com/forum/smilies/lol.gif

prove it.



Yeah thanks for stating the obvious, I mean you'd think some people didn't already know that or something by the way you're talking, but if you've read everything people have been saying no one showed that ignorance, so...

no one but you douche. thats why my post was directed towards you.




Listing nothing but the conglomerate companies ftw? Oh yeah, the big publishers have money to keep them afloat, thanks for that shatteringly concise insight into the economics of the video game industry, truely we are smarter for having listened to you.

no, just you. i saved whatever amount of brain cells you had left.



Well Atari's problem is more in cost control, but we're diverging here. If you only can cite Atari as an example of a company with Financial issues, then you don't really understand the scope of the issue.

really? are you a cost anaylst? have you seen there accounts? do you work for them?




"Hunh"? WTF? http://media.teamxbox.com/forum/smilies/lol.gif



Yeah because they've only been *****ing about it for a while, and Nintendo and Sony have only repeatedly tried to take the sale of used games sales to court over the past ten years. And all the companies I'm talking about thzt ran into financial problems are either shut down, bought up. Y'know, following basic ecinomics of what happens when their games (particularly in the PC space) are pirated to hell, or sold used a ton with sales that would of otherwise been putting money back to the developer.

yet EA, Ubisoft, capcom, konami, have success....i wonder why? could it be because of thier best selling franchises? and for every company that goes out of busniess, another one pops up. if the used game industry is such a trouble maker why are more game development studios still popping up zenien?

A company either has what it takes to be successful or not,plain and simple. thats the risk of starting up a busniess zenien,not all companies are guarenteed success, and the gaming industry is no exception to that rule.



"Wah wah wah! I don't like the idea of used games sales having some monitored aspect that allows the companies that spent the money to get a return"

Either it could be a policy changes in the stores or it could be some form of much more open version of what Sony is suggesting.

And your comment about charging the stores and such for fees is exactly the avenue I was alluding to Genius. http://media.teamxbox.com/forum/smilies/lol.gif

key word alluded, you by no means mentioned anything about it dumbass.

Sorry, did I offend you by saying "Oportunistic cheapskate"? http://media.teamxbox.com/forum/smilies/lol.gif I mean that's so great of you to get pissed off at me using that terminology and going on this long rant about the nature of the price drop spuring sales with stores and retail and thinking that I don't GET that? Ignoring for a moment that I wasn't argueing the validity of the price dropping tactic at all and that it's actually the context of the sales and the infastructure of the retail chain that ultimatetly decides the unseen 'morality' of consumer purchase.


oh no you did'nt offend me, i will continue to buy used games.:)
my problem is that you fail to even mention such info, when it comes to posting your ignorant posts, not only that but you actually contradicted yourself by posting such a comment. such as the one below



btw zenien congratulations on condradicting yourself, repeatedly you've been saying that you'll wait for the ps3 to drop in price....well are'nt you being an opportunistic cheapskate?..................oh the irony




..........

[Zenien]

thats the problem with your logic, the video game realm is not ****ing different from any business out there nor is it special. Which is probably the bumbest thought process I've ever read. tons of clothing/apparel are donated to the red cross and salvation army, does that mean the original manufactures should charge the person recieving the donated clothing? because afterall theyre not seeing a profit that tons of cheap labor help get made.

Maybe you're just slow but the digital medium has some special rules, and yet again your analogy is flawed. See for things like PC games and Movies, you're not suppose to resell them, or duplicate them right? Well how far do you think movies and PC games deviate from Console games? No much, their all under the digitial entertainment banner which is a bit different then buying your clothes second hand.

Publishers, movie makers, developers, don't like a marked down version of their product being re-sold 7 times on store shelfs without them seeing any money from it.

prove it.

Already did, go back and read some.

really? are you a cost anaylst? have you seen there accounts? do you work for them?

Amateur. No. No. But I can tell you that looking at their Q1 financial statements, the reason their losing so mcuh money is because their costs are astronomically higher then the revenue they are generating, hene a cost control problem.

It's pretty simple.

yet EA, Ubisoft, capcom, konami, have success....i wonder why? could it be because of thier best selling franchises? and for every company that goes out of busniess, another one pops up.

Really? Show me some proof that the rate of closure, obsorbtion and mergers are at a 1:1 ratio with the formation of new studios.

if the used game industry is such a trouble maker why are more game development studios still popping up zenien?


I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't think you know jack **** about the trends in the industry, why don't you suprise me?

key word alluded, you by no means mentioned anything about it dumbass.

OHHH NOOO! Yeah Keyword alluded to, dumbass, meaning I basically made it a clear impression without saying it and you were too stupid to pick up on it.

oh no you did'nt offend me, i will continue to buy used games.

That's an odd jump to make, considering I highly doubt offending you over using the term Cheapskate would have had a direct influence over your purchasing of used games... but whatever works for your 'special' brand of logic.

my problem is that you fail to even mention such info, when it comes to posting your ignorant posts, not only that but you actually contradicted yourself by posting such a comment. such as the one below

This should be good.

btw zenien congratulations on condradicting yourself, repeatedly you've been saying that you'll wait for the ps3 to drop in price....well are'nt you being an opportunistic cheapskate?..................oh the irony

Yeah pretty much, you have a point...? How does this 'contradict' anything I've said, I do dare you to go on. I love how you think you've caught me in some sort of lie here, were you dropped on your head as a child? The context of waiting for a price drop on a game console that costs 500-600 dollars is totally different from buying a used game the distribution of the wealth from that sale is TOTALLY different, for one, and I never said I wasn't an oportunistic cheapskate, only that in the regards of used games I don't buy them USED. I've waited for price drops on games before. http://media.teamxbox.com/forum/smilies/lol.gif

[THE LIZARD#1]

Can't we all just get along?

[Zenien]

That's what Neogaf is for.

[hippie_hunter]

Isn't this illegal to sell someone else's games without their permission :confused:

[Zenien]

I believe so... why? :confused:

[hippie_hunter]

Isn't that what this entitlement system is doing if we don't play our games for a certain amount of time?

[Zenien]

Huh? :confused:

Can you pull out the paragraph in question? :confused:

[블라스]

If this is true, smart people will not buy a Ps3.

[imdaly]

Isn't that what this entitlement system is doing if we don't play our games for a certain amount of time?
Nonono. If you want to let it collect dust and not be used, that's fine. But if you figure you're never gonna play it again, this is a way to 'let' you sell it away and get a little bit of money (read:Entitlements) back for it.


And I think the clothing analogy works.

How about cars? When someone sells a car back to a dealership, or does a trade-in, it's exaclty the same. The dealership gets the profit for it by selling that again, not the manufacturer.


Imagine I had a Dodge Neon. Only I can drive this car, nobody else. If a friend wanted to borrow it for a day, they'd not be allowed to unless they bought it off me.

So I decide I want to sell it to my friend. I really want $8k, but I can't set my own price: Dodge will. So we have to contact Dodge and hear from them how much it has to be sold for. Let's pretend they say it's worth $10k. So even though I really only want to charge my friend $8k, I HAVE to charge them $10k. But wait! In the end, I only get $7k of that transaction, while the other $3k goes back to Dodge to keep. Oh, and that $7k is not in cash, it's in Dodge Gift Certificates, where I can only use the credit to go towards a new Dodge vehicle or maybe some Dodge parts.

I'm not sure car owners would like that very much...

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

WTF?! So no more rentals, no more borrowing games from friends, and no more used games/ trade-in games for cash?! SONY is shooting itself on the foot here... I think The PS3 is taking Zenien's sig a bit too seriously...

[XwolverineX]

lawl.

[TheCardPlayer]

Wow....



Wow.....


Wow....



Sony am borked!

[THWIP*]

If this is true, smart people will not buy a Ps3.


INDEED........BUT THERE ARE 100'S OF MILLIONS OF STUPID PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET.......AND THAT'S THE DEMOGRAPHIC 'SONY' IS AFTER. :o

[THWIP*]

INTERESTING RUMOR (http://www.news4gamers.com/industrynews/News-8649.aspx). COULD BE TRUE......SOUNDS EXACTLY LIKE SOMETHING 'SONY' WOULD DO. :down

[TrailerCues]

INTERESTING RUMOR (http://www.news4gamers.com/industrynews/News-8649.aspx). COULD BE TRUE......SOUNDS EXACTLY LIKE SOMETHING 'SONY' WOULD DO. :down

Can't wait to see how Zenien justifies this. The number of possible PS3 returns after the first week of release just went up if this is true

[Blade_fan1911]

So people that don't have the internet can't play the games they buy?

[Mentok]

INTERESTING RUMOR (http://www.news4gamers.com/industrynews/News-8649.aspx). COULD BE TRUE......SOUNDS EXACTLY LIKE SOMETHING 'SONY' WOULD DO. :down

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Free Online Play'' INDEED! :down:

[Horrorfan]

The idea is this:

1) You buy a game. Sony makes money.

2) You sell a game to GameStop right now, and they give you some money, spendable at GameStop, or if you choose, cash. You make money.

3) GameStop sells that game to somebody else. GameStop makes money.

Sony essentially is replacing step 2 and 3 here with one nice little condensed step.

2b) You sell a game to a friend. Your friend does not pay you in cash. He puts the game in his system, and the system checks for authorization. If you have authorized the sale, your friend pays a used game price (to Sony) of which you recieve a percentage in entitlement points (spendable only to Sony). Sony makes money x 2.

If you are now thinking “well when I play some games I will not be on-line with the console” to side-step the problem then think again as it is not such a difficult proposition to cache data on a permanent storage device included with every console ( I am looking at you PLAYSTATION 3’s HDD).

The Content of the disc cannot be accessed by the user console unless, upon completion of the “registration” process mentioned earlier in the article, the Host Server submits access permission.

The DISC UNIQUE ID 230 uniquely identifies the disc 110. The contents of the disc 110 cannot be played on the user console 115 or other devices without access permission for the disc 110.

You know what I love?

No matter how bad the decision, no matter how ****ting in the face of the customers, no matter how earth shatteringly bad and ill thought out the idea is, zenien will ALWAYS defend sony to the death.


I don't know about you, but if I love a game, I share it with friends so they can see what the fuss is about, and if they like it enough, they buy it.

I don't know about you, but I found it highly useful to return unwanted games in return for discounts towards new titles. I am not rich, and being able to offload games I no longer wanted was a godsend. The second hand trade in my game store let me discover many hidden gems.

If I never had that option, I would have never discovered fable, Jade empire, or many other great games I overlooked first time (and to counter your argument that its useless and only benefits the ''greedy'' (ironic seeing as how you love the greediest coporation out there) stores, I will now buy the sequels of both on day one)


What's the betting 99% of PS3 owners wont even know about this little stipulation when they break the big black box out of it's packaging?

But then again, anyone dumb enough to buy a PS3 after everything else kinda deserves this imo.

[TrailerCues]

What's the betting 99% of PS3 owners wont even know about this little stipulation when they break the big black box out of it's packaging?


As I say I look forward to seeing the number of PS3 returns after the first week

[Avalanche]

INTERESTING RUMOR (http://www.news4gamers.com/industrynews/News-8649.aspx). COULD BE TRUE......SOUNDS EXACTLY LIKE SOMETHING 'SONY' WOULD DO. :down
I'm not bothered on the whole. I always buy my games new.

However, it does pose a bit of a problem when it comes to borrowing other's games, which I do frequently.

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

Well according to Zenien's reasoning we should get rid of EB, Gamestop and all those greedy stores that sell and re-sell games... Well why we don't buy the game straight from the developers... that way they get to keep all of our money... and "Greedy EB" gets none... Whoa! I kinda felt like THWIP* without all that capslocking or like WHF... Looks like Sony's completely lost it... giant crabs, Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidge Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaceeeeeeer!!! and this... I pity Sony...

[THWIP*]

I'm not bothered on the whole. I always buy my games new.

However, it does pose a bit of a problem when it comes to borrowing other's games, which I do frequently.


SEE, THAT'S THE THING.........YOU'RE A F***ING MOOCH, SO YOU CAN AFFORD TO PAY RETAIL FOR THE FEW GAMES YOU DO BUY. :down:mad:

[Avalanche]

SEE, THAT'S THE THING.........YOU'RE A F***ING MOOCH, SO YOU CAN AFFORD TO PAY RETAIL FOR THE FEW GAMES YOU DO BUY. :down:mad:
Hey, I lend as many games as I borrow. It all works out equal in the end.

[THWIP*]

Hey, I lend as many games as I borrow. It all works out equal in the end.


DO YOU LEND GAMES THAT YOU'VE BORROWED? :dry:

[SouLeSS]

Everytime you buy a game and put it in your PS3, the system will assign that copy of the game to your PS3. The game will now only work in THAT PS3 and THAT PS3 only. Have a friend want to borrow your game? Too bad. Unless he "buys" it off of you and has PSOnline transfer the disc's rights to your system, the disc will not work.


Wow. Not only does this disgust me, but it makes me not to even want to get a PS3.

[Horrorfan]

try to make your point without name calling--Dew

[imdaly]

INTERESTING RUMOR (http://www.news4gamers.com/industrynews/News-8649.aspx). COULD BE TRUE......SOUNDS EXACTLY LIKE SOMETHING 'SONY' WOULD DO. :down


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[Zenien]

WTF?! So no more rentals, no more borrowing games from friends, and no more used games/ trade-in games for cash?! SONY is shooting itself on the foot here... I think The PS3 is taking Zenien's sig a bit too seriously...

Nothings set in stone, it's omly a patent. Weither it happens or not is another story.

Well according to Zenien's reasoning we should get rid of EB, Gamestop and all those greedy stores that sell and re-sell games... Well why we don't buy the game straight from the developers... that way they get to keep all of our money... and "Greedy EB" gets none... Whoa! I kinda felt like THWIP* without all that capslocking or like WHF... Looks like Sony's completely lost it... giant crabs, Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidge Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaceeeeeeer!!! and this... I pity Sony..

And I never said anything like that. Where the heck are you pulling that from. :ninja: Seriously pull out where I said ANYTHING as to what you're saying here.

[hippie_hunter]

Why not? It's a perfect match.

PS3 - console for morons

you- moron

so it works out.

Weren't you banned :huh:

[hippie_hunter]

Looks like Sony's completely lost it... giant crabs, Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidge Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaceeeeeeer!!! and this... I pity Sony...

Now, now, I think that you would agree with me on this. A game where you play as the Giant Enemy Crab set in accurate historical times would be one of the coolest games EVER!

[TheCardPlayer]

This is what happens when you're the leader for too long....You think you can do anything.

[Horrorfan]

try to make your point without name calling--Dew

Free speech in action kids!

Let's thank god we are on the internet, where liberal facists pretend to be for it and actually aren't, and God forbid someone tells someone what they REALLY think of them in case it hurts their feelings!

(I made my point without name calling didn't I?)

[THE LIZARD#1]

According to Insomniac this is completely false, they've never heard of it?

A guy from 1.up asked will I be able to put the game in a Japense console and play the american version?

[TrailerCues]

According to Insomniac this is completely false, they've never heard of it?

Why would Sony have to let thing them know something that does not effect game makers but gamers ? I highly doubt when Sony makes a decision like this they call every single game developer

[Mentok]

According to Insomniac this is completely false, they've never heard of it?

Its not false since it comes from a patent application from SONY.

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

WTF?! So no more rentals, no more borrowing games from friends, and no more used games/ trade-in games for cash?! SONY is shooting itself on the foot here... I think The PS3 is taking Zenien's sig a bit too seriously...
Nothings set in stone, it's omly a patent. Weither it happens or not is another story.

Well according to Zenien's reasoning we should get rid of EB, Gamestop and all those greedy stores that sell and re-sell games... Well why we don't buy the game straight from the developers... that way they get to keep all of our money... and "Greedy EB" gets none... Whoa! I kinda felt like THWIP* without all that capslocking or like WHF... Looks like Sony's completely lost it... giant crabs, Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidge Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaceeeeeeer!!! and this... I pity Sony...

And I never said anything like that. Where the heck are you pulling that from. :ninja: Seriously pull out where I said ANYTHING as to what you're saying here.
First of all it was a crazy Idea based on your reasoning... you don't want EB to get money, but have the game developers get it themselves... Let me get a black cape and a top hat... Hocus pocus Alakazam!

I actually ...sort of... like the idea about used game sales, since I'd rather be giving it back to the companies then the greedy EB who play their games, reseal them and sell them as new, and also keep all the profit from any used game sale.
That's why I said sort of, I hate it that the money all goes to the greedy retailers, but this system doesn't solve the problem it just changes it a bit.
If a game is being resold, the developers and publishers should get a cut of that, not the greedy store.
And it's not the consumers right to buy used games that I dislike, but how the money made from those used games are distributed. All to the greedy retailers and none to the company that spent millions and years developing the titles.
I think the only reason I don't outright hate the concept of the money being restricted to PNP points is because at least it takes the money out of the hands of greedy EB, taht's like, objectively speaking, the only reason.

Based on these quotes the next best thing would be take EB/Gamestop, etc. out of the equation... buying the games straight from the developer eliminates the "Evil greedy" EB and we re-sellthem to the developer so it can res-sell the used game, thus getting mo' money for the re-sold game... "Evil greedy" EB would still be out of the equation... and that as they say it's...
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidge Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaceeeeeeeeeeer!!!

[THE LIZARD#1]

Maybe I misinterpreted:O

[Zenien]

First of all it was a crazy Idea based on your reasoning... you don't want EB to get money, but have the game developers get it themselves... Let me get a black cape and a top hat... Hocus pocus Alakazam!







Based on these quotes the next best thing would be take EB/Gamestop, etc. out of the equation... buying the games straight from the developer eliminates the "Evil greedy" EB and we re-sellthem to the developer so it can res-sell the used game, thus getting mo' money for the re-sold game... "Evil greedy" EB would still be out of the equation... and that as they say it's...
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidge Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaceeeeeeeeeeer!!!

Hm, it does sort of come across that way a bit, but I'm not advocating the removal of the retailers from the process, merely that the Developers and publishers should get a royalty. I think that was actually made fairly clear. Re-reading those highlighted parts though, I was sort of speaking out of turn with what I actually meant.

So let's clear that up:

I'm not saying that EB and Co should not getting any profit from used game sales, but I am saying that the developers and companies who produced the games should recieve a percentage of that profit.

I'd rather be giving it back to the companies then the greedy EB

Is me speaking if I had to choose between one or the other. Hence "I'd rather have it this way then that way (if it had to eb one or the other)".

I hate it that the money all goes to the greedy retailers

Given the nature of my argument I felt the emphasis on all would be percievd easilly.

If a game is being resold, the developers and publishers should get a cut of that, not the greedy store.

Yeah I should have added not just the greedy store.

Though I think you're cheery picking my words a bit, when looking at the entire post, it's pretty hard to miss that I just want the developers to get a rolyalty on used games sales.

[Doc_OCK_4MUGEN]

You made it sound like that... I just took what you said and kicked it up a notch... BAM!!! But believe it or not I agree with the fact that developers should get a bit of the action, thus helping them a bit, BUT I completely disagree wih the major ass-raping that SONY is trying to give the consumer...

I usually buy my games new... BUT there have been rare cases in which I wasn't able to find the game BRAND NEW (Final Fantasy Tactics, X-men vs Street Fighter,my second copy of Xenogears...My first one got busted recently and I love that game too much...) and I had to buy the game used... What I do much is "lending and borrowing" of games...
For example: I have Snake Eater, friend has Chaos theory... I usually don't buy splinter cell games, and he doesn't buy metal gear games... we both heard the other game is supposedly good... instead of buying it we "Trade" games, if we like them then we buy it... now If this makes it I'll have to lend him MY PS3 and MY games so then he can decide to buy the game... I am entitled to be pissed off at this crap...

[Horrorfan]

The thing is, I don't know anyone that buys all games second hand, or even most....just ones you aren't quite sold on,but see it cheap and decide to take a chance. If it pays off, you buy the sequelk first day, as I will for fable and jade empire (and now mass effect due to knowing how good bioware is). It can open up your experiences completely and introduce you to new genres and developers you would have been reluctant to splash out full price for first time.

[Horrorfan]

now If this makes it I'll have to lend him MY PS3 and MY games so then he can decide to buy the game... I am entitled to be pissed off at this crap...


In fairness to sony though, they aren't forcing you at gunpoint to buy a ps3. If you don't like it, don't buy one. It's simple, and will teach them the error of their ways. Complaining and buying one won't do anything.