Who in DC or Marvel would give Goku a good fight?

[Guyverjay]

Post crisis superman is NOT faster than Goku.

[GammaBeast]

I had assumed we were talking pre-crisis.

[Guyverjay]

I don't think krpton even knows the difference

[Krpton]

ok im just trying to say who is stronger, not who would win in a fight.



"who has taken more punishment? - supes

Prove that."

superman absorbed enough energy that could destroy the galaxy.



"who has more strength? - supes

Whats your basis for that? Goku's physical strength is never really tested in the same way so you can never know for sure. Even if supes is physically stronger, it's not a fist fight, Goku's energy attacks would wipe supes out in a second."

again im just saying who is stronger, not who would win in a fight. but superman did move parts of the earth eaisly and took 250 billion gravity and he esaped it instaiously and effortlesly without even trying, which is raw flight and brute strenth power.



"who can withstand more gravity? - supes

What the hell are you basing this off of?"

the max vegeta has done is 450 and superman is 250 billion wothout even trying.



"who is more faster? - supes

I'll concede to this, but how often does he actually use that in battle? Even if he did how would he beat Goku who is immortal? Also where is supes going to run from an attack that will wipe out all of existence?"

in the dbz series it has been stated that goku's instant transmission is the speed of light. and thst his transmission, therefore goku normal speed without transmission must be slower. but superman flew past a moon with his superspeed and it cracked, the time it took was like 20x the speed of light, and supes wasnt trying he did it effortlsly.



"who can destroy plantes with one punch? - supes

Who can destroy a solar system with the wave of a finger? Goku!"

true but that aint strength it ki enrgy, i trying to say who has more strenth, and goku cant destroy planets in one punch.



"who is scared of gettin destroyed along wid da planet? - goku

Scared? What makes you think he is scared? Remember when he fought Frieza? The planet was going to be destroyed, but he didn't care he kept fighting even if it would cost him his life."

ok goku aint scared of getting destroyed along wid da planet but, he cannot take an explosion of a planet because when kid buu blew up earth mystic gohan was wasted easily.



"You seem to keep forgetting Goku is immortal. He cannot be destroyed with the planet or die in any way."

first of know one know if goku is immortal, or he ages longer or just doesnt age but still can die. u are speculating, we simply do not know, so the last we saw from goku he wasnt immortal.

[Krpton]

"who is more faster? - supes

I'll concede to this, but how often does he actually use that in battle? Even if he did how would he beat Goku who is immortal? Also where is supes going to run from an attack that will wipe out all of existence?"

in the dbz series it has been stated that goku's instant transmission is the speed of light. and thst his transmission, therefore goku normal speed without transmission must be slower. but superman flew past a moon with his superspeed and it cracked, the time it took was like 20x the speed of light, and supes wasnt trying he did it effortlsly.


EDIT: if goku wipes out all of existence he wpould also die, but superman absorbed enough energy which has said it can "destroy all of creation". so therefore superman might survive and goku dies = superman wins.

[Guyverjay]

WRONG

Goku can move faster than the speed of light

Goku is immortal, you ever seen the GT special?

I'm sorry but where on earth are you getting this 250 billion stuff from?

Supermans flight has nothing to do with his strength

Half dead freiza survived a planet blowing up but you say that Goku can't? :rolleyes:

Also there a BIG difference in the planet just blowing because its core is unstable to The ridicously powerful Kid Buu Blowing up. THATS not the same thing. Plus Gohan was already unconcious when the planet went bye bye as far as I remember.

Btw do you know the difference between pre crisis and post crisis? and which one are you arguing for?

Also I want issues numbers of these comic where supes does this stuff

[Krpton]

Here are some quotes taken from a similar argument at Dragonball-gt.com. Read this and tell me again Goku can beat Superman...

”When Lex Luthor was announced as president, Superman flew from the Earth to a moon of Saturn and flew through the moon, breaking it in half. The time it stated he took to get there figures out to about 20 times the speed of light."

"Superman withstood being at the centre of a supernova, so a ki blast is nothing to Superman."

"1) Superman #54: survived, without any injury at all, a ground zero atomic bomb

2) Superman for all Seasons: Survived, without any injury whatsoever, a Russian thermonuclear warhead (from a submarine) at point blank range. Smiled afterwards. All Russian nukes from submarines are multi-megaton warheads.

3) Superman #40: Survived, at ground zero (the bomb was in his hands) a 40-megaton thermonuclear device. Then fell to Earth (he was in outer space at the time of the explosion). Superman was knocked unconscious for a half hour; he suffered no physical damage and was merely stunned.

4) In Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey, Superman survived, at ground zero, a blast equal to “a million nuclear bombs” (according to the energy being Waverider). Superman did not suffer any physical damage, though was temporarily stunned and stated that he felt concussed. He then got up and boxed a little more with Doomsday, who also survived the blast.

5) Adventures of Superman #478. As part of the Time and Time Again storyline. Superman’s body was affected by chronal displacement such that massive explosions would displace him through time. His invulnerability was the reason why the Time Trapper selected him for this- only one such as he such survives the catastrophic explosions involved in this method of time travel. Some have argued that Superman did not absorb the full brunt of these blasts but only a threshold amount that would propel him through time. This is blatantly contradicted by the fact explosions of different magnitudes hurled him through time by different amounts; also the more massive explosions (see the Sun-Eater example) caused him greater distress, hence he WAS taking the full force of the blasts (or else all the explosions would have affected him equally.)
As part of this storyline, in Adventures #478, Superman survived- without so much as batting an eye- the nuclear destruction of the entire moon in the year 2995. He was actually within the moon itself when it was obliterated. He did not suffer any harm and did not lose consciousness. The explosion did not even register for him. Note also that two Daxamites, not affected by chronal energies, also survived. Daxamites are the genetic cousins to Kryptonians, and possess virtually identical powers under a yellow sun. Despite unsubstantiated claims that Daxamites are slightly “more powerful” than Kryptonians, Superman was able to soundly and convincing defeat the supposedly “more powerful” Daxamite Lar Gand in a fight in which the odds were stacked against Superman (he was deprived of oxygen before the fight and fighting an Eclipso-possessed Lar Gand).

6) Also part of Time and Time Again, in Adventures of Superman #477, Superman survived an exploding sun eater, from within the nucleus of the sun eater. A sun eater is an enormous gaseous cloud that literally eats both the energy and mass of whole stars.
Let my friend Captain Kal explain the physics of it:
Re: Sun-Eater
A supernova is the total fusion of an entire star's mass over a period of months. Fusing an entire star's mass all at once should be at least supernova level. Additionally, the Sun-Eater has eaten many stars and IIRC has consumed entire galaxies, so I'd put the Sun-Eater detonation at much greater than a mere supernova, especially since Wildfire's anti-energy was also involved and interacting in that explosion.
Although it should be noted that it was only the core of the sun eater that was exploded; however, the explosion was sufficient to blast the rest of the massive sun eater apart into the vastness of space, thus destroying it. Likely at least a supernova-level event anyway. Following the explosion, (Action Comics #664) Superman’s body is hurled across “hundreds of light years of space” and crash-lands on Earth. He is unconscious but physically completely unharmed. He wakes up a day later and, after a brief moment of disorientation, regains his balance and is none the worse the wear.

7) Superman #3: survives the dreaded fire pits of Apokolips without any physical injury, but suffers a spell of amnesia.

8) Adventures of Superman #480; Superman: Last God of Krypton one shot; Superman Man of Steel #50: Superman survives immersion in the outer layers of the sun. He also escapes from the sun’s gravity. In the first reference, survival and escape is quite difficult. In the next two, he survives easily, gets a power boost from the sun, and very easily escapes the sun’s immense gravitational pull (more than 99% of the mass of the solar system is in the sun).

9) Action Comics # 782; Superman Man of Steel #64: very easily survives the core of the sun without any injury whatsoever. His powers are increased by the immersion in the sun. Each moment in the core of the sun, 600 billion tons of hydrogen is fused. Energy equal to literally trillions and trillions of hydrogen bombs are liberated. Since Superman does not blacken the sun by immersion in it, he must only be absorbing a portion of these energies. The rest of the energies do not destroy him because of his invulnerability. In addition to the energy liberated, the pressure at the core of the sun is equal to 250 BILLION Earth atmospheres. Such extreme pressure- literally, matter destroying pressure- does not harm the man from Krypton. In addition, he effortlessly escapes from the immense gravity at the core of the sun (gravity intense enough to fuse billions of tons of hydrogen every second). Superman’s escape from this gravity is effortless and virtually instantaneous as well - an amazing feat of raw flight power.

10) JLA #41, the conclusion of the World War III story: Superman absorbs the energy of the Mageddon Warhead, a device stated to be capable of vaporizing HALF A GALAXY (and was implied to be able to destroy all of Creation). This is Superman’s most extreme feat of energy absorption, and his body alone did it (no magic hammer needed). Although visibly quite distressed by the absorption, Superman suffers no harm whatsoever, and even smiles afterwards.

11) Actions Comics #586: His Omega Beams exhausted, Darkseid attacks Superman with an energy beam attuned to his “precise molecular structure”, intended to destroy Superman. The blast causes him pain but absolutely no physical damage at all; Superman proceeds to beat down Darkseid and defeat him soundly (a fact admitted to by Darkseid.)

12) Adventures Of Superman #595: This time its the real thing as Darkseid unleashes the full power of his disintegrating Omega Beams (one of the most feared forces in the DCU) upon Superman with the stated intention of killing him. Superman withstands repeated full force blasts at point blank range, and shrugs them off without any harm or pain whatsoever. Note that besides Darkseid himself, only two others have withstood the beams other than Superman: Doomsday and the Cyborg (whose body was made from Superman’s own Kryptonian DNA).

13) After his fight with Lobo, and lost in space, Superman survives passage through a cosmic wormhole- a catastrophic, matter destroying force, to say the least. Note that this was during his post-death power-up. Trying to track down the issue number for this, be patient.

14) Also part of his post death power up, in Superman Man of Steel #30, Superman survives a so called “force twelve disintegration beam” fired from a ship the size of a small moon with absolutely no effect at all. BTW, Lobo also survived.

15) Though not exactly canon: in the Superman/Fantastic Four crossover, Superman shrugs off, “like it was nothing”, a laser beam (designed by Reed Richards) capable of cutting through adamantium.

16) Withstands various particle beams from a planet-powered Cyborg, one of which was said to be sufficient to level a city. See Superman Man of Steel #52"

"17) In Kingdom Come, Superman was assaulted by Captain Marvel with lightning. Many see this as Captain Marvel “almost killing Superman.”, as well as evidence of Superman’s extreme vulnerability to magic. An unbiased look at this event reveals otherwise. First of all, the lightning emanates from Shazam, one of the higher cosmic powers in the DCU. It is Marvel’s very power source and in fact conveys the power of Zeus, another higher power in the DCU. As an example of its power, Billy used it to crack open the Gulag in Kingdom Come. Said Gulag was designed by Scott Free, master escape artist, and constructed using New Genesis technology, which in past issues has been used to travel into the sun’s core. In addition the Gulag was constructed to contain literally hundreds of powerful and dangerous metahumans. Marvel busted open this Gulag with his magic lightning.
Superman withstood at least four (that we saw) of these bolts with the power of ZEUS. He likely withstood a lot more than 4 because it is implied that Marvel was reigning lightning down on Superman off-panel the whole time that the story cuts away to Batman and Wonder Woman’s exchange. Such an assault would have easily killed virtually anyone else in the DCU. Far from being dead, however, Superman required only a couple of seconds pause to gather his wits, used his own superspeed to match the speed of Mercury, and pull Marvel back into the lightning. (And thus win the fight, a often overlooked fact). A battering like that and still he could match the speed of Mercury. From there on, although obviously bloodied, Superman appears fairly intact. In fact, he is still conscious (actually far from out of it), talking comfortably and coherently as he erases the years of brainwashing from Billy, and doesn’t even have the gravelly, uneven word bubbles used to signify serious injuries in comics. He also survives the nuclear explosion, albeit from hundreds of feet away, yet it was still sufficient to kill almost every other metahuman not protected by the Green Lantern.
As an aside, note that in DC Vs Marvel, Thor absorbed a single hit of Billy’s lightning to the hammer- not even a direct hit- and needed a “long pause” to recover. Contrast Thor’s long pause after just a single indirect hit with Superman’s couple of seconds to gather his wits after repeated direct hits to the torso. It should be noted however that DC vs. Marvel is hardly canon and quite a lot of screwy nonsense was going on in that.

18) In JLA: Primeval, the League battles Disciple, empowered by the ancestral magical gods. Zauriel, literally an angel from heaven, finds Disciples divinities to be impossibly ancient, even older and more powerful than his own divinities. In fact, Disciple laughs off Zauriel’s attack. Wonder Woman, herself empowered by the Greek Gods, similarly found Disciples ancestral divinities impossibly powerful. And this was BEFORE the Elder Gods gave Disciple their full power. At that point, every Justice Leaguer, including the magical beings Wonder Woman and Zauriel, were completely incapacitated by Disciple’s magical blast. Only Superman was able to walk through the blast unfazed (Is that...the best...you’ve got?”), actually made a coherent speech while overcoming the ancestral god-power, overpowered Disciple, and knocked the sceptre from his hand. His power exhausted, Disciple was defeated single handedly by Superman.

19) At the last page of Superman Man of Steel #15, Superman is assaulted from all angles by hundreds of magical demons, and seemingly overcome. However, just moments later in Superman #71, Superman resumes his attack on Blaze (a powerful demon goddess) in her own dimension, in which reality bends to her will. Superman overcomes a magical blast meant to incapicatate him (Blaze: “you can still move?”) and physically restrains Blaze long enough for his ally Satannus to free the Daily Planet staffers from Blaze’s dimension. This was the first time Blaze was defeated in her own realm.

20) Superman fought in and survived the 1000 Year War in Valhalla (time was operating strangely in this magical dimension). Magic no doubt abounded here. There were many casualties amongst the gods including the DC version of Thor (though it hardly reflects on the Marvel version). See Action Comics #761.

21) Action Comics #587: Attacked by magical “demon flame” from the demon Etrigan, Superman feels intense pain but notes that he is not physically harmed. He fights off the pain and beats down the demon.

22) Action Comics # 585: Superman military presses a magically animated mountain, almost (but not quite) big enough to “crush Metropolis with one step.” Note that he does say “unnggh!” when lifting it while land bound. However, he easily achieves flight with it (evidence that his flying strength is greater than his land-bound strength) and actually flies the massive chunk of Earth, weighing billions of tons, into Outer Space quite easily. (Leaving Earth’s gravity would require achieving escape velocity, or 7 miles per second, with a mountain on his back.) Once there, he causally thinks to himself that he just will toss the mountain into orbit around the sun before being interrupted by the Phantom Stranger.
Contrast this feat of raw power with Hercules’ towing of Manhattan Island. Military pressing a weight is far more difficult than towing it, and flying it beyond Earth’s gravity and tossing it into orbit around the sun requires vastly more raw power than towing it. Not sure if this mountain was quite as big as the Island (although if it kept growing it would have crushed Metropolis) but what he DID with it more than makes up for any ambiguity in the weight.

23) In Superman: The Earth Stealers, Superman propels a massive space station, cylindrical in shape and stated to be 600 miles in diameter (the length of the cylinder by the way was more than twice its diameter- maybe a mountain-range sized ship) by pushing against it. The weight was inestimable- it was constructed from all the natural resources of an entire solar system. That’s a lot of metal! A hyperspace portal was opened and Superman not only pushed it, he propelled it for 20 minutes through hyperspace (it was stated that they reached the halfway point at 10 minutes). Note that he had to exert the power to move it at the same time that he had to deal with the stresses of hyperspace unprotected. He seemed none the worse for wear by journey’s end. Note that the space station was also towing both the Earth and the Moon in a stasis field, however, being honest, I do not factor this weight into the feat as Superman himself theorized that the tractor beam was neutralizing the planet’s mass. Hence he merely resisted the space station’s weight, not the Earth and Moon’s.

[GammaBeast]

superman absorbed enough energy that could destroy the galaxy.

Give me a specific example of that.


again im just saying who is stronger, not who would win in a fight. but superman did move parts of the earth eaisly and took 250 billion gravity and he esaped it instaiously and effortlesly without even trying, which is raw flight and brute strenth power.

When did he do that? I never heard about that, tell me about it.


the max vegeta has done is 450 and superman is 250 billion wothout even trying.

Are you serious? When Vegita did that he wasn't even a SSJ. He was pathetic campared to his later self, let alone to Goku. After becoming a SSJ Vegita could dance around in 450X earth gravity and not even feel the difference.

in the dbz series it has been stated that goku's instant transmission is the speed of light. and thst his transmission, therefore goku normal speed without transmission must be slower. but superman flew past a moon with his superspeed and it cracked, the time it took was like 20x the speed of light, and supes wasnt trying he did it effortlsly.

Yes, it DBZ. But in GT Goku could surpass the speed of light.

true but that aint strength it ki enrgy, i trying to say who has more strenth, and goku cant destroy planets in one punch.

I repeat, Goku's physical strength has never been tested in that way because he doesn't need to punch a planet to destroy it.

ok goku aint scared of getting destroyed along wid da planet but, he cannot take an explosion of a planet because when kid buu blew up earth mystic gohan was wasted easily.

Mystic Gohan was nothing compared to Goku later on. Also Gohan was unconscious so he was defenseless.

first of know one know if goku is immortal, or he ages longer or just doesnt age but still can die. u are speculating, we simply do not know, so the last we saw from goku he wasnt immortal.

At the end of GT he is IMMORTAL. He cannot die in any way.

[Krpton]

24) In Kingdom Come, Superman burrowed through the Earth (entered in Asia and came out in Gotham City, America) in seconds.

25) In JLA: The Century War, ancient “alchemical engines” were causing the moon to fall towards the Earth. Superman and Green Lantern took turns holding the moon back against a “geometrically increasing” force. Superman got the longest shift before being called off to deal with an even larger threat.

26) In Superman #181, Superman and Bizarro (his imperfect duplicate) switched bodies. Superman (in Bizarro’s body) punched Bizarro (in Superman’s body) completely through the Earth and out the other end. Bizarro (in Superman’s body) went in through the ground in Metropolis and came out seconds later in China. He is seen ripping straight through the Earth and out the other end. Note that Superman’s body was completely unharmed, conscious, and totally unaffected by the blow.
Superman theorized that Bizarro’s body “may be “ potentially stronger than his if Bizarro’s brain would work. However, this is highly unlikely since Bizarro was created as Superman’s imperfect duplicate and is probably at best equally strong. It is more likely that the lack of control over Bizarro’s body that Superman was struggling with the entire issue (due to Bizarro’s brain damage) had robbed that body of the usual fine control Superman has over his own body, and hence struck with greater force than would have liked to (the inability to control the extent of his strength was a recurring problem in that issue).
Note also that this was a single punch that sent him through the Earth- more impressive than flying dive through the Earth.

27) Superman Man of Steel #30: during his post-death power up, Superman easily grabbed, broke the forward momentum of, and easily throw in the opposite direction, a ship the size of a small moon.

28) Luthor 2000 special: Superman split one of Saturn’s moons with a single strike.

29) Superman #175: Superman for the first time, overpowers Doomsday in hand to hand combat, which he had never been able to do before, perhaps suggesting that he is now “stronger than ever.”

30) Action Comics #782: Superman’s greatest ever feat of raw power. After flying through the sun for an increase in power, SUPERMAN MOVES A PLANET. Specifically, WarWorld, home of Braniac. But there’s more. Braniac has stolen the energy of Imperiex. Imperiex gained his power from the consumption of thousands of whole galaxies since the dawn of time. Hence his universal reputation as the “Devourer of Galaxies”. It is argued that Braniac wasn’t resisting Superman’s push, and that Superman was “merely” moving a planet. This is directly contradicted by Braniac’s narrative: “Full thrust counter-measure! How is he moving my planet? The Kryptonian does not have that power!” The panel clearly shows the blue Imperiex energies firing from WarWorld’s engines. Yes, Superman was resisting the awesome Imperiex-begotten force, and pushed WarWorld through a boom tube to the beginning of time (big bang).
Note that this example confirms what we’ve suspected all along: that whatever the role that metabolized solar energy stores play in granting Superman his powers, he is obviously accessing power beyond that of the solar energies he can absorb. A few minutes in the sun is piddling compared to galaxies of power. (All of Superman’s feats listed here exceed the energy he could have gleaned from 30 years of absorbed sunlight, BTW.) Apparently the solar energy is either “hypermetabolized” (as per JLA scribe Grant Morrison), indicating energy generation via Unified Field/Big Bang, or the metabolized solar energy allows access to his deeper power, likely psionic in nature (as per John Byrne).

31) Superman #172: Under his “normal” power level, Superman destroys an Imperiex probe. He also destroyed another Imperiex probe in Superman #153. Imperiex probes aren’t as tough as the real Imperiex. However, they are extensions of his being and Imperiex had been using them for billions of years, and not one probe had ever been destroyed before encountering Superman. Note that Doomsday also destroyed some probes and General Zod (another Kryptonian) destroyed two probes.

32) Superman #171: With three seconds to act, Superman flies from an about-to-explode Pluto. It’s not clear from the depiction how far away from the planet he is when it explodes (although he looks to be fairly close to the explosion). He is unaffected by the blast, which obliterates the planet. He suffers only temporary “ringing in my ears.” This is either an invulnerability feat, or a flight speed feat, depending on how fast he got away and how far away he was from the planet when it exploded. Take your pick.

33) Superman Man of Steel #126: Superman holds a contest of strength against an immortal god, Baal the Thundering Destroyer, and stalemates him. The gods then call Superman “magnificent.”

34) Superman is known to be the physical equal of Captain Marvel, a being possessing the strength of Hercules, the speed of Mercury, the stamina of Atlas, and of course, the power of Zeus."





























Key Notes:

For those of you saying Superman would die if knocked into the sun are wrong, Superman could take a nap in the sun, he can even become immortal in the sun. Keep this in mind when Cooler (stronger then Frieza) was killed by the sun, this obviously puts him far stronger than anything before the Frieza saga.

250 Billion Earth Atmospheres is the pressure in the sun that Superman withstood easily, Vegeta trained at most 450-500x Gravity. Such extreme pressure - literally, matter-destroying pressure - does not even harm the man from Krypton. In addition, he effortlessly escapes from the immense gravity at the core of the sun (gravity intense enough to fuse billions of tons of hydrogen every second). Superman’s escape from this gravity is effortless and virtually instantaneous as well - an amazing feat of raw flight power.

Superman absorbs enough energy to destroy the galaxy and he wasn’t even stunned, and can withstand blasts powerful enough to destroy planets like it was nothing, and was implied to be able to destroy all of Creation. While The DBZ fighters are scared of being destroyed with the planet.

Superman can punch people through the EARTH and other bigger planets, and even if he was on the receiving end of that, it doesn't even faze him, while the DBZ fighters have been known to knock people through a few mountains.

So therefore one punch from Superman would destroy Goku because remember Superman can destroy planets in one punch, and Goku cannot withstand an explosion of a planet, as a result Goku would be destroyed.

If Goku’s punch could destroy planets he would have beaten anyone in one punch because none of the DBZ characters can take an explosion of a planet.

Goku’s Instant Transmission (Goku’s maximum speed) is the speed of light (which has also been mentioned in the series), so that would mean Goku is slower than the speed of light without Instant Transmission in his normal speed. But Superman is faster than the speed of light; actually he is 20x faster than the speed of light. Superman flew from the Earth to a moon of Saturn and flew through the moon, breaking it in half. The time it stated he took to get there figures out to about 20x the speed of light.

Superman was even in power with an IMMORTAL God when the two fought. Superman holds a contest of strength against an IMMORTAL God, Baal the Thundering Destroyer, and stalemates him. The Gods then call Superman “magnificent.”

All of this tells us that:

1. Superman withstood more gravity than Goku. (With ease)
2. Superman is faster than Goku even with his Instant Transmission.
3. Superman withstood more punishment than Goku. (Invincible/Immortal)
4. Superman has more Strength than Goku.
5. Superman’s one punch would destroy Goku.
6. Superman taking Goku’s most powerful move (which at maximum only destroys planets) will not faze him.
7. Superman was even in power with an IMMORTAL God when the two fought.



All of the above proves that Superman is stronger than Goku and will beat Goku in a fight.

Superman>SSJ4 Goku/Vegeta

[Guyverjay]

You didn't give me what I asked for did you?

Your sun arguemt is flawed.

This comics are not the real world and superman derives his powers from the sun. So anything do to with that is not a feat at all.

Superman surviving explosion of solar energy is also not a feat

Thats like me sayijng "Wow wee Ice man can survive in arctic temperatures" what a feat

Also how many of these comics have YOU actually read?

[Krpton]

'the max vegeta has done is 450 and superman is 250 billion wothout even trying.

Are you serious? When Vegita did that he wasn't even a SSJ. He was pathetic campared to his later self, let alone to Goku. After becoming a SSJ Vegita could dance around in 450X earth gravity and not even feel the difference.'

well it still dont copare to 250 billion, and anyway we cant say he could do more because we need proof, ur speculating he an do more. commen sense tells us he can obviously do more but u cant unless it has been stated.



'in the dbz series it has been stated that goku's instant transmission is the speed of light. and thst his transmission, therefore goku normal speed without transmission must be slower. but superman flew past a moon with his superspeed and it cracked, the time it took was like 20x the speed of light, and supes wasnt trying he did it effortlsly.
Yes, it DBZ. But in GT Goku could surpass the speed of light.'

wheres ur proof that his speed improved not just his strength. it could be liike ussj but his speed stays the same but stregth increases as ssj4, we dont knoew, it has never been stated. so u cannot speculate.



'true but that aint strength it ki enrgy, i trying to say who has more strenth, and goku cant destroy planets in one punch.

I repeat, Goku's physical strength has never been tested in that way because he doesn't need to punch a planet to destroy it.'

whos fault is that, so we dont know how strong or weak he is compared to superman, so from what we have seen superman is way stronger than goku.



'ok goku aint scared of getting destroyed along wid da planet but, he cannot take an explosion of a planet because when kid buu blew up earth mystic gohan was wasted easily.

Mystic Gohan was nothing compared to Goku later on. Also Gohan was unconscious so he was defenseless.'

mystic gohan wasnt that much weaker from ssj4, but in gt they made a plothole that gohan can turn ssj, so we really dont know the difference between mystci and ssj4. so from wht we have seen and the proof we got, mytic gohan cannot withstand an explosion of a planet.
i bt u if superman was unconsious and the planet blew up, superman woulda survived it easily.



'first of know one know if goku is immortal, or he ages longer or just doesnt age but still can die. u are speculating, we simply do not know, so the last we saw from goku he wasnt immortal.

At the end of GT he is IMMORTAL. He cannot die in any way.'

how do u knoew he cannot die, how do u know he is immortal.

last i chked u have to fuse with the dragon, and the last ep goku never fused wid the dragon so we dont know if he is immortal.

but last time we checked he isnt, so goku isnt immortal unless u want to specualte but u cant do that as we know, we need to use proof.

[Guyverjay]

Jeez Krpton do you enjoy talking out of your ass?

Youreargument is so full of crap its not even funny:D

[Krpton]

'You didn't give me what I asked for did you?

Your sun arguemt is flawed.

This comics are not the real world and superman derives his powers from the sun. So anything do to with that is not a feat at all.

Superman surviving explosion of solar energy is also not a feat

Thats like me sayijng "Wow wee Ice man can survive in arctic temperatures" what a feat

Also how many of these comics have YOU actually read?'

yes but superman keeps that energy.

i have read enough

im goin sleep noew is 1am, continue the dabte 2morw.

[Guyverjay]

You read none of them I'll bet (although I have quite a number of the ones listed )and you still didn't answer any of my questions bwhahahahahaha

Their speed is never stated???

Do you watch DBZ with the sound off? LOL:D

[GammaBeast]

Krypton all those bomb arguments are meaningless. No nuclear bomb on this planet is capable of destroying the planet itself. Even with our strongest bombs it would take more than one just to kill everything on this planet, let alone wipe the planet itself out.

Goku's body withstands attacks capable of destroying galaxies without any damage whatsoever. If an attack of that level does nothing what hope does supes have of beating him?

And lets not forget Goku's immortality.

[Guyverjay]

Originally posted by Krpton
Here are some quotes taken from a similar argument at Dragonball-gt.com. Read this and tell me again Goku can beat Superman...

”When Lex Luthor was announced as president, Superman flew from the Earth to a moon of Saturn and flew through the moon, breaking it in half. The time it stated he took to get there figures out to about 20 times the speed of light."

Rubbish. Post crisis Superman can only achoive 99% of the speed of light. thats CANON

"Superman withstood being at the centre of a supernova, so a ki blast is nothing to Superman."

As I said an explosion of solar energy isn't a feat. Since the energy would only make him stronger anyway

"1) Superman #54: survived, without any injury at all, a ground zero atomic bomb

Havent got this one So can't comment

2) Superman for all Seasons: Survived, without any injury whatsoever, a Russian thermonuclear warhead (from a submarine) at point blank range. Smiled afterwards. All Russian nukes from submarines are multi-megaton warheads.

Nope haven't read it but nuclear explosions really are nothing considering how you only need a power level of under a 1000 to blow up the moon in DBZ

3) Superman #40: Survived, at ground zero (the bomb was in his hands) a 40-megaton thermonuclear device. Then fell to Earth (he was in outer space at the time of the explosion). Superman was knocked unconscious for a half hour; he suffered no physical damage and was merely stunned.

This has to be volume 1 Pre crsiis. because I've got Superman #40 Post crisis and that doesn't happen all

4) In Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey, Superman survived, at ground zero, a blast equal to “a million nuclear bombs” (according to the energy being Waverider). Superman did not suffer any physical damage, though was temporarily stunned and stated that he felt concussed. He then got up and boxed a little more with Doomsday, who also survived the blast.

Yup thats what its says, funny how there is no damage to the planet at all apart from the ground being turned to glass. Freiza blew a planet to ittty bitty peices with his index finger and HE also survived Namek blowing up despite dying and having one arm and both legs sliced off

5) Adventures of Superman #478. As part of the Time and Time Again storyline. Superman’s body was affected by chronal displacement such that massive explosions would displace him through time. His invulnerability was the reason why the Time Trapper selected him for this- only one such as he such survives the catastrophic explosions involved in this method of time travel. Some have argued that Superman did not absorb the full brunt of these blasts but only a threshold amount that would propel him through time. This is blatantly contradicted by the fact explosions of different magnitudes hurled him through time by different amounts; also the more massive explosions (see the Sun-Eater example) caused him greater distress, hence he WAS taking the full force of the blasts (or else all the explosions would have affected him equally.)
As part of this storyline, in Adventures #478, Superman survived- without so much as batting an eye- the nuclear destruction of the entire moon in the year 2995. He was actually within the moon itself when it was obliterated. He did not suffer any harm and did not lose consciousness. The explosion did not even register for him. Note also that two Daxamites, not affected by chronal energies, also survived. Daxamites are the genetic cousins to Kryptonians, and possess virtually identical powers under a yellow sun. Despite unsubstantiated claims that Daxamites are slightly “more powerful” than Kryptonians, Superman was able to soundly and convincing defeat the supposedly “more powerful” Daxamite Lar Gand in a fight in which the odds were stacked against Superman (he was deprived of oxygen before the fight and fighting an Eclipso-possessed Lar Gand).

Haven't read it. Nothing there proves he can beat Goku. Piccollo and even crappy master roshi blew the moon and up and thier power levels were pathetic. So Supes is gonna have to be alot more durable to take blasts from Goku

6) Also part of Time and Time Again, in Adventures of Superman #477, Superman survived an exploding sun eater, from within the nucleus of the sun eater. A sun eater is an enormous gaseous cloud that literally eats both the energy and mass of whole stars.
Let my friend Captain Kal explain the physics of it:
Re: Sun-Eater
A supernova is the total fusion of an entire star's mass over a period of months. Fusing an entire star's mass all at once should be at least supernova level. Additionally, the Sun-Eater has eaten many stars and IIRC has consumed entire galaxies, so I'd put the Sun-Eater detonation at much greater than a mere supernova, especially since Wildfire's anti-energy was also involved and interacting in that explosion.
Although it should be noted that it was only the core of the sun eater that was exploded; however, the explosion was sufficient to blast the rest of the massive sun eater apart into the vastness of space, thus destroying it. Likely at least a supernova-level event anyway. Following the explosion, (Action Comics #664) Superman’s body is hurled across “hundreds of light years of space” and crash-lands on Earth. He is unconscious but physically completely unharmed. He wakes up a day later and, after a brief moment of disorientation, regains his balance and is none the worse the wear.

Nope haven't read it

7) Superman #3: survives the dreaded fire pits of Apokolips without any physical injury, but suffers a spell of amnesia.

Big deal Goku survived in molten lava with no amnesia

8) Adventures of Superman #480; Superman: Last God of Krypton one shot; Superman Man of Steel #50: Superman survives immersion in the outer layers of the sun. He also escapes from the sun’s gravity. In the first reference, survival and escape is quite difficult. In the next two, he survives easily, gets a power boost from the sun, and very easily escapes the sun’s immense gravitational pull (more than 99% of the mass of the solar system is in the sun).

Lame, he gets power from the sun, the closer he gets the more powerful he gets. Doesn't mean anything

9) Action Comics # 782; Superman Man of Steel #64: very easily survives the core of the sun without any injury whatsoever. His powers are increased by the immersion in the sun. Each moment in the core of the sun, 600 billion tons of hydrogen is fused. Energy equal to literally trillions and trillions of hydrogen bombs are liberated. Since Superman does not blacken the sun by immersion in it, he must only be absorbing a portion of these energies. The rest of the energies do not destroy him because of his invulnerability. In addition to the energy liberated, the pressure at the core of the sun is equal to 250 BILLION Earth atmospheres. Such extreme pressure- literally, matter destroying pressure- does not harm the man from Krypton. In addition, he effortlessly escapes from the immense gravity at the core of the sun (gravity intense enough to fuse billions of tons of hydrogen every second). Superman’s escape from this gravity is effortless and virtually instantaneous as well - an amazing feat of raw flight power.

Bringing real world science in it so dumb. Its a comic book. Unless it stated as 250 billion times blah blah blah. Its not. Plus as I said sun gives him powers blah blah. Also Goku, trunks ad Pan survived being next to a star in GT and they don't get any power from it

10) JLA #41, the conclusion of the World War III story: Superman absorbs the energy of the Mageddon Warhead, a device stated to be capable of vaporizing HALF A GALAXY (and was implied to be able to destroy all of Creation). This is Superman’s most extreme feat of energy absorption, and his body alone did it (no magic hammer needed). Although visibly quite distressed by the absorption, Superman suffers no harm whatsoever, and even smiles afterwards.

Again Big deal another solar energy related absorbtion. Also Brolli Did vaporise an ENTIRE galaxy himself

11) Actions Comics #586: His Omega Beams exhausted, Darkseid attacks Superman with an energy beam attuned to his “precise molecular structure”, intended to destroy Superman. The blast causes him pain but absolutely no physical damage at all; Superman proceeds to beat down Darkseid and defeat him soundly (a fact admitted to by Darkseid.)

So? Thats hardly surprising considering how supes has a field around his body

12) Adventures Of Superman #595: This time its the real thing as Darkseid unleashes the full power of his disintegrating Omega Beams (one of the most feared forces in the DCU) upon Superman with the stated intention of killing him. Superman withstands repeated full force blasts at point blank range, and shrugs them off without any harm or pain whatsoever. Note that besides Darkseid himself, only two others have withstood the beams other than Superman: Doomsday and the Cyborg (whose body was made from Superman’s own Kryptonian DNA).

Big deal. Supes blocked part of with his heat vison and Darkseid wasn't really trying to kill him at all. Plus Supes got his ass handed to him by general zod in that same arc:D

13) After his fight with Lobo, and lost in space, Superman survives passage through a cosmic wormhole- a catastrophic, matter destroying force, to say the least. Note that this was during his post-death power-up. Trying to track down the issue number for this, be patient.

Haven't read it

14) Also part of his post death power up, in Superman Man of Steel #30, Superman survives a so called “force twelve disintegration beam” fired from a ship the size of a small moon with absolutely no effect at all. BTW, Lobo also survived.

Apart from the fact its been given the fancy name "force 12 disintergration beam", is there any indication of powerful it actrually? No


15) Though not exactly canon: in the Superman/Fantastic Four crossover, Superman shrugs off, “like it was nothing”, a laser beam (designed by Reed Richards) capable of cutting through adamantium.

Not canon and it was later said that the beam was desined to cut SECONDARY adamantium. So meh

16) Withstands various particle beams from a planet-powered Cyborg, one of which was said to be sufficient to level a city. See Superman Man of Steel #52"

Again big deal?

"17) In Kingdom Come, Superman was assaulted by Captain Marvel with lightning. Many see this as Captain Marvel “almost killing Superman.”, as well as evidence of Superman’s extreme vulnerability to magic. An unbiased look at this event reveals otherwise. First of all, the lightning emanates from Shazam, one of the higher cosmic powers in the DCU. It is Marvel’s very power source and in fact conveys the power of Zeus, another higher power in the DCU. As an example of its power, Billy used it to crack open the Gulag in Kingdom Come. Said Gulag was designed by Scott Free, master escape artist, and constructed using New Genesis technology, which in past issues has been used to travel into the sun’s core. In addition the Gulag was constructed to contain literally hundreds of powerful and dangerous metahumans. Marvel busted open this Gulag with his magic lightning.
Superman withstood at least four (that we saw) of these bolts with the power of ZEUS. He likely withstood a lot more than 4 because it is implied that Marvel was reigning lightning down on Superman off-panel the whole time that the story cuts away to Batman and Wonder Woman’s exchange. Such an assault would have easily killed virtually anyone else in the DCU. Far from being dead, however, Superman required only a couple of seconds pause to gather his wits, used his own superspeed to match the speed of Mercury, and pull Marvel back into the lightning. (And thus win the fight, a often overlooked fact). A battering like that and still he could match the speed of Mercury. From there on, although obviously bloodied, Superman appears fairly intact. In fact, he is still conscious (actually far from out of it), talking comfortably and coherently as he erases the years of brainwashing from Billy, and doesn’t even have the gravelly, uneven word bubbles used to signify serious injuries in comics. He also survives the nuclear explosion, albeit from hundreds of feet away, yet it was still sufficient to kill almost every other metahuman not protected by the Green Lantern

Big deal . Not canon AND that superman was far more powerful than the current one due to his retirement from the super heroes biz. Even Krptonite no longer effected him.
.
As an aside, note that in DC Vs Marvel, Thor absorbed a single hit of Billy’s lightning to the hammer- not even a direct hit- and needed a “long pause” to recover. Contrast Thor’s long pause after just a single indirect hit with Superman’s couple of seconds to gather his wits after repeated direct hits to the torso. It should be noted however that DC vs. Marvel is hardly canon and quite a lot of screwy nonsense was going on in that.

Dc vs marvel was big pile of crap and Thor still soundly beat marvle alot more convincing than KC superman did. Also Marvel has knocked out supes in 2 punches. It was a sucker punch but it still happened

18) In JLA: Primeval, the League battles Disciple, empowered by the ancestral magical gods. Zauriel, literally an angel from heaven, finds Disciples divinities to be impossibly ancient, even older and more powerful than his own divinities. In fact, Disciple laughs off Zauriel’s attack. Wonder Woman, herself empowered by the Greek Gods, similarly found Disciples ancestral divinities impossibly powerful. And this was BEFORE the Elder Gods gave Disciple their full power. At that point, every Justice Leaguer, including the magical beings Wonder Woman and Zauriel, were completely incapacitated by Disciple’s magical blast. Only Superman was able to walk through the blast unfazed (Is that...the best...you’ve got?”), actually made a coherent speech while overcoming the ancestral god-power, overpowered Disciple, and knocked the sceptre from his hand. His power exhausted, Disciple was defeated single handedly by Superman.

Sorry but all this proves is that is tougher than the rest of the JLA. Gee No one knew that.

19) At the last page of Superman Man of Steel #15, Superman is assaulted from all angles by hundreds of magical demons, and seemingly overcome. However, just moments later in Superman #71, Superman resumes his attack on Blaze (a powerful demon goddess) in her own dimension, in which reality bends to her will. Superman overcomes a magical blast meant to incapicatate him (Blaze: “you can still move?”) and physically restrains Blaze long enough for his ally Satannus to free the Daily Planet staffers from Blaze’s dimension. This was the first time Blaze was defeated in her own realm.


Yet he was beaten up by magical crows in JLA Obsidian Age :confused:. In fact Superman got beaten to death in that very same arc


20) Superman fought in and survived the 1000 Year War in Valhalla (time was operating strangely in this magical dimension). Magic no doubt abounded here. There were many casualties amongst the gods including the DC version of Thor (though it hardly reflects on the Marvel version). See Action Comics #761.

Again this proves what? What has that got to do with Goku?

21) Action Comics #587: Attacked by magical “demon flame” from the demon Etrigan, Superman feels intense pain but notes that he is not physically harmed. He fights off the pain and beats down the demon.

Again magic weakness, he survived blah blah blah snore

22) Action Comics # 585: Superman military presses a magically animated mountain, almost (but not quite) big enough to “crush Metropolis with one step.” Note that he does say “unnggh!” when lifting it while land bound. However, he easily achieves flight with it (evidence that his flying strength is greater than his land-bound strength) and actually flies the massive chunk of Earth, weighing billions of tons, into Outer Space quite easily. (Leaving Earth’s gravity would require achieving escape velocity, or 7 miles per second, with a mountain on his back.) Once there, he causally thinks to himself that he just will toss the mountain into orbit around the sun before being interrupted by the Phantom Stranger.
Contrast this feat of raw power with Hercules’ towing of Manhattan Island. Military pressing a weight is far more difficult than towing it, and flying it beyond Earth’s gravity and tossing it into orbit around the sun requires vastly more raw power than towing it. Not sure if this mountain was quite as big as the Island (although if it kept growing it would have crushed Metropolis) but what he DID with it more than makes up for any ambiguity in the weight.

Yeah thats proves superman is strong? Wow didn't know that either. Thanks for the head up. BTW supes carrying something while flying has nothing with his strength. You know what I think is funny is how this guy uses real world science to makeup feats for supes. I can do that to. The mountain should have crumbled under its own weight as soon as he tried to lift it

23) In Superman: The Earth Stealers, Superman propels a massive space station, cylindrical in shape and stated to be 600 miles in diameter (the length of the cylinder by the way was more than twice its diameter- maybe a mountain-range sized ship) by pushing against it. The weight was inestimable- it was constructed from all the natural resources of an entire solar system. That’s a lot of metal! A hyperspace portal was opened and Superman not only pushed it, he propelled it for 20 minutes through hyperspace (it was stated that they reached the halfway point at 10 minutes). Note that he had to exert the power to move it at the same time that he had to deal with the stresses of hyperspace unprotected. He seemed none the worse for wear by journey’s end. Note that the space station was also towing both the Earth and the Moon in a stasis field, however, being honest, I do not factor this weight into the feat as Superman himself theorized that the tractor beam was neutralizing the planet’s mass. Hence he merely resisted the space station’s weight, not the Earth and Moon’s.

Impressive feat of strength except he is not using his strength to push it but his flight ability

[Guyverjay]

Originally posted by Krpton


Key Notes:

For those of you saying Superman would die if knocked into the sun are wrong, Superman could take a nap in the sun, he can even become immortal in the sun. Keep this in mind when Cooler (stronger then Frieza) was killed by the sun, this obviously puts him far stronger than anything before the Frieza saga.

Well obviously he wouldn't die if he got knocked in the sun. What maroon said that? Btw Cooler got kamahammahaed into the sun. THATS what killed him

250 Billion Earth Atmospheres is the pressure in the sun that Superman withstood easily, Vegeta trained at most 450-500x Gravity. Such extreme pressure - literally, matter-destroying pressure - does not even harm the man from Krypton. In addition, he effortlessly escapes from the immense gravity at the core of the sun (gravity intense enough to fuse billions of tons of hydrogen every second). Superman’s escape from this gravity is effortless and virtually instantaneous as well - an amazing feat of raw flight power.

Will you stop bringing up the gravity of the sun.Its a comic not the real world. You can't use real world phsyisc for some things and not bother for others It wasn't stated. Plus as I've said a million times SUN= POWER for superman. Move on will ya

Superman absorbs enough energy to destroy the galaxy and he wasn’t even stunned, and can withstand blasts powerful enough to destroy planets like it was nothing, and was implied to be able to destroy all of Creation. While The DBZ fighters are scared of being destroyed with the planet.

Dear lord are you dense? His body metabolises that type of energy so it doesn't compare with Ki energy at all

Superman can punch people through the EARTH and other bigger planets, and even if he was on the receiving end of that, it doesn't even faze him, while the DBZ fighters have been known to knock people through a few mountains.

Yeah they each other threw mountains. Does that mean that they couldn't knock someone through the planet? I'm not saying they could but your reasonnig is flawed at best. I've seen Supes get knocked out plenty of time by people who I've never seen have strength feats like his.


So therefore one punch from Superman would destroy Goku because remember Superman can destroy planets in one punch, and Goku cannot withstand an explosion of a planet, as a result Goku would be destroyed.

Where do you keep getting this Goku can't withstand the explosion of a planet GARBAGE? Freiza the guy HE BEAT, the guy who he is MORE powerful than SURVIVED the destruction of a plabet and he was alreay DYING. It wasn't the explosion that would have killed Goku its the lack of oxygen that would have killed him because as freiza said "I can live anywhere"

If Goku’s punch could destroy planets he would have beaten anyone in one punch because none of the DBZ characters can take an explosion of a planet.

LOL what a retarded statement considering how Gokus power is in Flux through the entire story. Plus Buu seems to survive the destruction of a number of planets. In fact so did cell as well as freiza.


Goku’s Instant Transmission (Goku’s maximum speed) is the speed of light (which has also been mentioned in the series), so that would mean Goku is slower than the speed of light without Instant Transmission in his normal speed. But Superman is faster than the speed of light; actually he is 20x faster than the speed of light. Superman flew from the Earth to a moon of Saturn and flew through the moon, breaking it in half. The time it stated he took to get there figures out to about 20x the speed of light.

UGH yes IT is as fast as light but goku can go faster. Whdere does it saty that IT is his maximum speed? NOWHERE. Gotenks circled the earth around 30 times in a couple of seconds in the buu saga, was he going really slowly? Plus as we all know sayans get faster and stronger all the time. Dc CANON STATES that post crisis supes can only go 99% the speed of light. Of course if it pre crisis tha I'd give supes the nod. f


Superman was even in power with an IMMORTAL God when the two fought. Superman holds a contest of strength against an IMMORTAL God, Baal the Thundering Destroyer, and stalemates him. The Gods then call Superman “magnificent.”

THOR is an immortal GOD, can he beat Goku as well?


All of this tells us that:

1. Superman withstood more gravity than Goku. (With ease)
2. Superman is faster than Goku even with his Instant Transmission.
3. Superman withstood more punishment than Goku. (Invincible/Immortal)
4. Superman has more Strength than Goku.
5. Superman’s one punch would destroy Goku.
6. Superman taking Goku’s most powerful move (which at maximum only destroys planets) will not faze him.
7. Superman was even in power with an IMMORTAL God when the two fought.



All of the above proves that Superman is stronger than Goku and will beat Goku in a fight.

Superman>SSJ4 Goku/Vegeta

No what its proves is you don't have a clue

[Bapman]

Originally posted by Shyair
Gokuu No Karyuu.
He's an all powerful god.
He'd wipe the existance of reality clean of Superman's existence with a thought.

You have NO IDEA who SUPERMAN PRIME is or HOW poerful HE IS do YOU ??? :cool:

SUPERMAN PRIME is basically THE MOST POWER CHARACTER in the DC universe...
YES... he's more powerful THAN SPECTRE.
On a NORMAL average day... he's considered more powerful than PARALLAX n ION...

In other words... in a normal DAY... he can destroy n create the entire universe as he see fit.
n
On a BAD DAY ???...... well.... no one has reached that yet.

GOKU is unmatachable in PHYSICAL powers including speed, strength, agility n others.
BUT he cannot recreate universes and other things...
n look dude
I've seen DBGT too...
Non of the DRAGON BALL characters have ever become OMNI POWERFUL
They have becomes OMEGA powerful as in can punch a planet into rubble... 1 kamehameha can wipeout planets in a row
BUT that's it... all destructive powers.
they CANT create a blackhole with a though... or create supernovas with a thought...

If push comes to shove... SUPERMAN PRIME can just create few hundred blackhole around GOKU n make them collapse on him.
Then...whatEVER KI energy GOKU has left... he can just wipe it out.

[Guyverjay]

Bapman what on earth are you on about?

You haven't even read DC one million:o

[GammaBeast]

Originally posted by Bapman
You have NO IDEA who SUPERMAN PRIME is or HOW poerful HE IS do YOU ??? :cool:

SUPERMAN PRIME is basically THE MOST POWER CHARACTER in the DC universe...
YES... he's more powerful THAN SPECTRE.
On a NORMAL average day... he's considered more powerful than PARALLAX n ION...

In other words... in a normal DAY... he can destroy n create the entire universe as he see fit.
n
On a BAD DAY ???...... well.... no one has reached that yet.

GOKU is unmatachable in PHYSICAL powers including speed, strength, agility n others.
BUT he cannot recreate universes and other things...
n look dude
I've seen DBGT too...
Non of the DRAGON BALL characters have ever become OMNI POWERFUL
They have becomes OMEGA powerful as in can punch a planet into rubble... 1 kamehameha can wipeout planets in a row
BUT that's it... all destructive powers.
they CANT create a blackhole with a though... or create supernovas with a thought...

If push comes to shove... SUPERMAN PRIME can just create few hundred blackhole around GOKU n make them collapse on him.
Then...whatEVER KI energy GOKU has left... he can just wipe it out.

Would you mind posting a link that verifies all that you've said?

[Krpton]

"Their speed is never stated???

Do you watch DBZ with the sound off? LOL"


well for the record it has been mentioned in the anime that goku's instant transmission is the speed of light. also in the anime goku says u can "cover a lot of ground when u traveling 186,000 miles a second" that is the speed of light.

but thats goku instant transmission so his speed must be slower because his fastes is instant transmission.



im a big dbz/gt fan and a superman fan, i am not underestimating any of them. But supes in his prime can have anyone, no one can touch supes.

1. Superman absorbs enough energy (nothing to do with the sun energy) to destroy the galaxy, "all of creation." While Goku would be destroyed by gettin blown up with the planet.

2. Superman just FLEW past the moon and it cracked because he was so fast, while the DBZ fighters have to use ki energy.

3. Superman punched planets in half with one single punch, while the DBZ fighters have to use ki energy.

4. Superman would be able to withstand any of Goku's attacks, because Superman withstood enough energy that would destroy the entire universe.

5. Goku is not immortal, because to become immortal you have to fuse with the DRAGON not the dragonballs, What happens is the dragon is not pure yet so Goku decides to help the dragon in order to keep the dragonballs around. So Goku gets on the dragons back and goes with him. About 100 years later he is a young adult because he only aged 10 years with the dragon while purifying him. That is why Goku is about 20 years old there, that is why he is not immortal, that is why he is still alive at the end of GT. He doesn't age because he is with the dragon purifying the balls. It never makes him immortal, just that he ages slower due to the time he spends with the dragon. That's all, he's not immortal, he's not dead, he's just back to his old self again. Shenlong explains that no more wishes can be made, but Gokuh asks for one more. Everyone killed in the fighting is brought back to life. Shenlong then tells Gokuh to come with him. Gokuh gets on Shenlong's back and goes to say his final goodbye's to all his friends. While on Shenlong's back, all of the Dragonballs enter into Gokuh's body and then he disappears. We are brought back 100 years and Vegeta Jr. and Gokuh Jr. are fighting in the Tenkaichi Budoukai, in the crowd Pan sees Gokuh, but she can not catch up with him. All the highlights from the series are then shown.

Since Goku is pure of heart then he absorbs them in order to purify the balls, not become immortal. He said he would never allow anyone to come back to life. I think that is some pretty negative energy there. I understand your reasoning, but most of the plots in DBGT leave it not even close to the DBZ plots so they wouldn't have done it for that reason. The only logical explanation is that the dragonballs were absorbed by Goku in order to purify them. Beating the dragons meant nothing as Shenron takes Goku with him. If Shenron did not want the dragonballs with anyone then why Goku? In order to purify them completely thus that is why he is not immortal, just he did not age as much during the purification process.

6. Superman withstood 250 billion gravity pressure, he still keeps the energy absorbed, it becomes apart of him. While vegeta done 450, but even if u do ur math, it still doesn't come near to 250 billion gravity pressure. So if like Goku turns SSJ4, Superman will go to the sun and get a boost and that energy with him forever.

7. Superman can punch people through the EARTH and other bigger planets, and even if he was on the receiving end of that, it doesn't even faze him, while the DBZ fighters have been known to knock people through a few mountains.

So therefore one punch from Superman would destroy Goku because remember Superman can destroy planets in one punch, and Goku cannot withstand an explosion of a planet, as a result Goku would be destroyed.

If Goku’s punch could destroy planets he would have beaten anyone in one punch because none of the DBZ characters can take an explosion of a planet.

8. Superman moves planets easily.

9. Superman is known for pucnhing people through planets while DBZ fighter are known for goin through a few mountains.

So Superman is:

More Durable
Faster
Stronger

Goku is not immortal, if u think he is, then ur a fool because there is know proof of him being immortal.

I think thats all the thing u need to win in a fight, and Superman has got them so therefore

Superman > SSJ4 Goku/Vegeta.

[GammaBeast]

Excuse my swearing and yelling but you just keep saying the same things we've already disproven.

1. Superman absorbs enough energy (nothing to do with the sun energy) to destroy the galaxy, "all of creation." While Goku would be destroyed by gettin blown up with the planet.

Are you blind? How many times have we said that Goku has withstood blasts capable of wiping out solar systems with no damage whatsoever. What the ^_^^_^^_^^_^ makes you think a planet being destroyed would kill him? Brolly survived Planet Vegeta being blown up as an infant with a power-level of 10,000. Goku's powerlevel is way into the billions in his prime.

2. Superman just FLEW past the moon and it cracked because he was so fast, while the DBZ fighters have to use ki energy

They don't have to use Ki energy. Think about it. If you were going to destroy a planet would you bother walking up to it and doing it manually if you could just wave your finger and do it from a distance?

3. Superman punched planets in half with one single punch, while the DBZ fighters have to use ki energy.

Read my previous statement.

4. Superman would be able to withstand any of Goku's attacks, because Superman withstood enough energy that would destroy the entire universe.

WHEN? WHEN did he withstand enough energy to destroy the universe? Give me an actual example! You quoted all those bombs, but thats meaningless. None of those can even come close to destroying the earth and Goku withstands attacks that powerful all the time without any damage.

6. Superman withstood 250 billion gravity pressure, he still keeps the energy absorbed, it becomes apart of him. While vegeta done 450, but even if u do ur math, it still doesn't come near to 250 billion gravity pressure. So if like Goku turns SSJ4, Superman will go to the sun and get a boost and that energy with him forever.

Again I ask are you blind? Guyver already went over this. You sound like a broken record. Superman is fueled by the sun, so him surviving near it is meaningless because it SUSTAINS him. Also guyver pointed out that in GT Goku, Pan and Trunks were right next to a sun and had no problems at all.

Also the energy is not with him forever. Superman is like a battery and he burns through that energy.

7. Superman can punch people through the EARTH and other bigger planets, and even if he was on the receiving end of that, it doesn't even faze him, while the DBZ fighters have been known to knock people through a few mountains.

So therefore one punch from Superman would destroy Goku because remember Superman can destroy planets in one punch, and Goku cannot withstand an explosion of a planet, as a result Goku would be destroyed.

If Goku’s punch could destroy planets he would have beaten anyone in one punch because none of the DBZ characters can take an explosion of a planet.

WTF makes you think Goku cannot withstand an explosion of a planet? Goku withstands far higher energy levels than that with no damage.

8. Superman moves planets easily.

As Guyver pointed out thats his flying power, not his physical strength. So that doesn't count as proving how strong he is.

[Guyverjay]

Geez theres no point even arguing with someone like this guy:)

He'll just continue to ignore everything thats said and drone on with the same nonsense. After a while it will make you go insane. I've encountered this type before. He hasn't even read the comics he's listed. Add all that rubbish about purification and only aging 10 years blah blah blah. Which is complete bull and you've got a a headache:D

What really funny is, he's just copying posts from other sites bwhahahahahahaha.

Heres an example:

http://boards.ign.com/Dragon_Ball/b5653/58664058/p2

LOL :D


Heers some extra food for thought. An INJURED (post vegeta fight) Goku picked up a Pyramid with his mind alone in the 43rd episode of DBZ.

[Krpton]

"Excuse my swearing and yelling but you just keep saying the same things we've already disproven."

ok



"1. Superman absorbs enough energy (nothing to do with the sun energy) to destroy the galaxy, "all of creation." While Goku would be destroyed by gettin blown up with the planet.

Are you blind? How many times have we said that Goku has withstood blasts capable of wiping out solar systems with no damage whatsoever. What the ^_^^_^^_^^_^ makes you think a planet being destroyed would kill him? Brolly survived Planet Vegeta being blown up as an infant with a power-level of 10,000. Goku's powerlevel is way into the billions in his prime."

If mystic gohan woulnt withstand a planet exploding and in ssj4 is only a little bit stronger than gohan. gohan got wasted easily, plus when kid buu was gonna blow up the earth goku said "noo!, if he does this, we will al die for sure", well sumtin along those lines.



"2. Superman just FLEW past the moon and it cracked because he was so fast, while the DBZ fighters have to use ki energy

They don't have to use Ki energy. Think about it. If you were going to destroy a planet would you bother walking up to it and doing it manually if you could just wave your finger and do it from a distance?"

yes but that doesnt prove how much strength he has got, so from wht we have seen supeman is stronger. agree? you cannot just speculate.



"3. Superman punched planets in half with one single punch, while the DBZ fighters have to use ki energy.

Read my previous statement."

read my previous post.



"4. Superman would be able to withstand any of Goku's attacks, because Superman withstood enough energy that would destroy the entire universe.

WHEN? WHEN did he withstand enough energy to destroy the universe? Give me an actual example! You quoted all those bombs, but thats meaningless. None of those can even come close to destroying the earth and Goku withstands attacks that powerful all the time without any damage."

JLA #41, the conclusion of the World War III story: Superman absorbs the energy of the Mageddon Warhead, a device stated to be capable of vaporizing HALF A GALAXY (and was implied to be able to destroy all of Creation). This is Superman’s most extreme feat of energy absorption, and his body alone did it (no magic hammer needed). Although visibly quite distressed by the absorption, Superman suffers no harm whatsoever, and even smiles afterwards.



"6. Superman withstood 250 billion gravity pressure, he still keeps the energy absorbed, it becomes apart of him. While vegeta done 450, but even if u do ur math, it still doesn't come near to 250 billion gravity pressure. So if like Goku turns SSJ4, Superman will go to the sun and get a boost and that energy with him forever.

Again I ask are you blind? Guyver already went over this. You sound like a broken record. Superman is fueled by the sun, so him surviving near it is meaningless because it SUSTAINS him. Also guyver pointed out that in GT Goku, Pan and Trunks were right next to a sun and had no problems at all.

Also the energy is not with him forever. Superman is like a battery and he burns through that energy."

its lilke when goku turns ssj4, ssj4 get weaker the longer he stays ssj4 because ki is goin, so for superman he can just go to the sun and get a power up.



"7. Superman can punch people through the EARTH and other bigger planets, and even if he was on the receiving end of that, it doesn't even faze him, while the DBZ fighters have been known to knock people through a few mountains.

So therefore one punch from Superman would destroy Goku because remember Superman can destroy planets in one punch, and Goku cannot withstand an explosion of a planet, as a result Goku would be destroyed.

If Goku’s punch could destroy planets he would have beaten anyone in one punch because none of the DBZ characters can take an explosion of a planet.

WTF makes you think Goku cannot withstand an explosion of a planet? Goku withstands far higher energy levels than that with no damage."

when does he withstand higher energy levels, in gt the move omega dragon only could destroy the earth, and it was implied if the dragon landed with that move goku would have died.



"8. Superman moves planets easily.

As Guyver pointed out thats his flying power, not his physical strength. So that doesn't count as proving how strong he is."

ok until i see oku puch planets with his stength he is not stronger than superman.



ok goku goes ssj4, now superman goes to the sun for a long time to absorb energy, he comes out the sun. now what he is like the strongest ever. superman can take a nap in the sun and goku cant do nothing cuz goku cant handle the sun (every dbz board i have gone to have agree with this, the said lava < sun.)

superman comes out he in untouchable.

[GammaBeast]

Since you just seem to be reiterating the same thing I'll only do this one more time.

"1. Superman absorbs enough energy (nothing to do with the sun energy) to destroy the galaxy, "all of creation." While Goku would be destroyed by gettin blown up with the planet.

If mystic gohan woulnt withstand a planet exploding and in ssj4 is only a little bit stronger than gohan. gohan got wasted easily, plus when kid buu was gonna blow up the earth goku said "noo!, if he does this, we will al die for sure", well sumtin along those lines.

First off Mystic Gohan had already been beaten pretty bad in his fight with Super Buu, and Buu had been feeding off his energy during his entire battle with Vegetto. So he wasn't at his maximum, also he was unconscious and as such defenseless.

Also Mystic Gohan at best was only slightly above SS3 Goku. And before the end of DBZ (before GT even BEGAN) Goku had 10 years of training with Uub. Which would have put him at a level that makes Mystic Gohan look like nothing.

Also the reason Goku thought they would die isn't because the planet was going to explode it was that combined with the energy blast from Kid Buu. The energy blast is what would have done it not the planet exploding.



"2. Superman just FLEW past the moon and it cracked because he was so fast, while the DBZ fighters have to use ki energy
yes but that doesnt prove how much strength he has got, so from wht we have seen supeman is stronger. agree? you cannot just speculate.

Your speculating that their not strong enough. When has Goku ever had to physically struggle to do something? It doesn't happen too often and when it does he becomes strong enough to do it.

JLA #41, the conclusion of the World War III story: Superman absorbs the energy of the Mageddon Warhead, a device stated to be capable of vaporizing HALF A GALAXY (and was implied to be able to destroy all of Creation). This is Superman’s most extreme feat of energy absorption, and his body alone did it (no magic hammer needed). Although visibly quite distressed by the absorption, Superman suffers no harm whatsoever, and even smiles afterwards.

Can you show me somewhere where I can see a Scan of the comic saying that? All I see is people saying that and rumors can spread pretty fast.

Even if that is true that doesn't show he is more durable than Goku. Brolly wiped out an ENIRE GALAXY before becoming a SSJ and Goku beat him. And over time Goku far surpassed Brolly. The fact that Goku withstood attacks far exceeding brolly's SS2 powers it shows that he could easily with stand a blast like that one.

You can't argue with that.


its lilke when goku turns ssj4, ssj4 get weaker the longer he stays ssj4 because ki is goin, so for superman he can just go to the sun and get a power up.

SS4's don't run out of energy. And even if they did, the energy Goku starts with is enough to wipe out the universe. He could just wipe out this Galaxy and every Sun in it. Then where would supes get his power ups?

when does he withstand higher energy levels, in gt the move omega dragon only could destroy the earth, and it was implied if the dragon landed with that move goku would have died.

After the Cell saga basically everyone could wipe out a planet with the energy in their fingertips. Goku withstood all of their strongest attacks time and time again only to grow stronger.


ok goku goes ssj4, now superman goes to the sun for a long time to absorb energy, he comes out the sun. now what he is like the strongest ever. superman can take a nap in the sun and goku cant do nothing cuz goku cant handle the sun (every dbz board i have gone to have agree with this, the said lava < sun.)

superman comes out he in untouchable.

What if Goku just blows the sun away? He could easily do that, then where would Supes get his power ups?

True the sun is hotter than Lava, but we've already said numerous times that superman being in the sun has nothing to do with his durability because it FEEDS him.

That's like if electricity fueled me, saying that me being struck by a bolt of lightning and surviving is impressive.

[Krpton]

ok a few yes or no questions?

can goku withstand an explosion of the universe and all of creation?

can goku withstand 250 billion gravity pressure?

can goku destroy the moon just by flying past it with his speed?

can goku move planets?

can goku reverse time with his speed?

can goku move planets with just his breath?

[Krpton]

"250 Billion Earth Atmospheres is the pressure in the sun that Superman withstood easily, Vegeta trained at most 450-500x Gravity. Such extreme pressure - literally, matter-destroying pressure - does not even harm the man from Krypton. In addition, he effortlessly escapes from the immense gravity at the core of the sun (gravity intense enough to fuse billions of tons of hydrogen every second). Superman’s escape from this gravity is effortless and virtually instantaneous as well - an amazing feat of raw flight power.

Will you stop bringing up the gravity of the sun.Its a comic not the real world. You can't use real world phsyisc for some things and not bother for others It wasn't stated. Plus as I've said a million times SUN= POWER for superman. Move on will ya"


well whats ur point, superman still did it, it still happen.



"Superman absorbs enough energy to destroy the galaxy and he wasn’t even stunned, and can withstand blasts powerful enough to destroy planets like it was nothing, and was implied to be able to destroy all of Creation. While The DBZ fighters are scared of being destroyed with the planet.

Dear lord are you dense? His body metabolises that type of energy so it doesn't compare with Ki energy at all"

read previous.



"Superman can punch people through the EARTH and other bigger planets, and even if he was on the receiving end of that, it doesn't even faze him, while the DBZ fighters have been known to knock people through a few mountains.

Yeah they each other threw mountains. Does that mean that they couldn't knock someone through the planet? I'm not saying they could but your reasonnig is flawed at best. I've seen Supes get knocked out plenty of time by people who I've never seen have strength feats like his."

then y didnt someone go through the planet?




"So therefore one punch from Superman would destroy Goku because remember Superman can destroy planets in one punch, and Goku cannot withstand an explosion of a planet, as a result Goku would be destroyed.

Where do you keep getting this Goku can't withstand the explosion of a planet GARBAGE? Freiza the guy HE BEAT, the guy who he is MORE powerful than SURVIVED the destruction of a plabet and he was alreay DYING. It wasn't the explosion that would have killed Goku its the lack of oxygen that would have killed him because as freiza said "I can live anywhere""

when frieza survived, it wasnt him, its cause someone helped him, frieza was dieING.



If Goku’s punch could destroy planets he would have beaten anyone in one punch because none of the DBZ characters can take an explosion of a planet.

"LOL what a retarded statement considering how Gokus power is in Flux through the entire story. Plus Buu seems to survive the destruction of a number of planets. In fact so did cell as well as freiza."

its because cell and buu can regenerate but goku cant.




"Goku’s Instant Transmission (Goku’s maximum speed) is the speed of light (which has also been mentioned in the series), so that would mean Goku is slower than the speed of light without Instant Transmission in his normal speed. But Superman is faster than the speed of light; actually he is 20x faster than the speed of light. Superman flew from the Earth to a moon of Saturn and flew through the moon, breaking it in half. The time it stated he took to get there figures out to about 20x the speed of light.

UGH yes IT is as fast as light but goku can go faster. Whdere does it saty that IT is his maximum speed? NOWHERE. Gotenks circled the earth around 30 times in a couple of seconds in the buu saga, was he going really slowly? Plus as we all know sayans get faster and stronger all the time. Dc CANON STATES that post crisis supes can only go 99% the speed of light. Of course if it pre crisis tha I'd give supes the nod. f"

what in the blue hell are u talkin about, 30 sec? lies.
gotenks took 20 mins, and then when gotenks landed his fusion wore off, and fusion last for 30 minutes. this has also been stated in the manga. so stop makin up lies.




"Superman was even in power with an IMMORTAL God when the two fought. Superman holds a contest of strength against an IMMORTAL God, Baal the Thundering Destroyer, and stalemates him. The Gods then call Superman “magnificent.”

THOR is an immortal GOD, can he beat Goku as well?"

Probably.




"No what its proves is you don't have a clue"

well i do.

[Guyverjay]

One word:

BAKA

[GammaBeast]

The debate isn't about who is phsically stronger, it's about who would win in a fight. Goku would kill superman easily.

can goku withstand an explosion of the universe and all of creation?

I'm still waiting for that scan. But the term "creation" includes heaven, hell, our universe and parallel worlds. I doubt any bomb has that kind of power.

Goku can withstand blasts capable of wiping out universes easily because it is beneath his power.

can goku withstand 250 billion gravity pressure?


No, but without the sun being so close to fuel him neither could superman. Lets see him do that near a red star.

can goku destroy the moon just by flying past it with his speed?

Considering he can fly far beyond the speed of light, yes he can.

can goku move planets?

Never tested. Me saying he could would be speculation. You saying he can't is also speculation.

can goku reverse time with his speed?

Flying beyond the speed of light would alter time and in theory make him go back in time, so he could probably pull this off.

can goku move planets with just his breath?

Nope, but I don't see how that proves anything.


Remember this debate is over who would win in a fight, these feats are meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

There is something that's always bothered me about Superman's sneeze wiping out a solar system. In order to sneeze something has to either irritate your skin(damaging it slightly) or you need to be sick. Either of which would mean there was something in the vacuum of space capable of doing that to him, hence making it seem he was not very invulnerable at all.

[Krpton]

never mind

[Bapman]

Originally posted by guyverjay
One word:

BAKA

N A N I !!! :mad:

C'moin man... YOU posted the LINK for SUPERMAN PRIME...
You know how powerful he is
Honestly don't you think he can beat GOKU at SUPER SAYAN LEVEL 4 ??? :)

AWWW C'MON !!! :confused:

[Krpton]

"The debate isn't about who is phsically stronger, it's about who would win in a fight. Goku would kill superman easily."

are u trying to say that sup[erman is physically stronger?



"can goku withstand an explosion of the universe and all of creation?

I'm still waiting for that scan. But the term "creation" includes heaven, hell, our universe and parallel worlds. I doubt any bomb has that kind of power."

for the record it was not a bomb, it was pure energy.



"Goku can withstand blasts capable of wiping out universes easily because it is beneath his power.

can goku withstand 250 billion gravity pressure?

No, but without the sun being so close to fuel him neither could superman. Lets see him do that near a red star."

when supes gets to the sun he gets a boost of energy that stays with him, so in that time if he did go near a red star, he could do it easily.



"can goku destroy the moon just by flying past it with his speed?

Considering he can fly far beyond the speed of light, yes he can."

how do u know that it could be much much more the speed of light to break planets? we have no proof how fast goku is.
ok a question, is goku's instant transmission his fastest form of movement?
but from what we have seen goku cant, because when gotenks flew he took 20 mins. ok but even u know supes is faster than goku right?

"can goku move planets?

Never tested. Me saying he could would be speculation. You saying he can't is also speculation."

ok so from what we have seen with our own eyes goku cant, agree, not saying he cant anyway, but also not saying he could, but from what we have see he cannot, agree?



"can goku reverse time with his speed?

Flying beyond the speed of light would alter time and in theory make him go back in time, so he could probably pull this off."

read previous.



"can goku move planets with just his breath?

Nope, but I don't see how that proves anything."

the supeman can just blow goku away, evrytime he comes near him in a fight, maybe even blow him into a black hoole or sumtin.



"Remember this debate is over who would win in a fight, these feats are meaningless in the grand scheme of things."

There is something that's always bothered me about Superman's sneeze wiping out a solar system. In order to sneeze something has to either irritate your skin(damaging it slightly) or you need to be sick. Either of which would mean there was something in the vacuum of space capable of doing that to him, hence making it seem he was not very invulnerable at all."

scientifically, u dont have to damage the skin, it is just particles that enter ur nose, which forces him to sneeze, but doesn not irratate or damage the skin in any way.
but anyway gopku gets sick, he gets injured and superman doesnt.

[Krpton]

just one question, what is the one thing that u need to win in a fight?

its speed.

i say speed because u can always dodge and then attack, for example when trunks ussj was fighting cell he had the power but didnt have the speed.

so everyone agrees that superman is faster than goku right?

[Bapman]

Sighhh
as much as I would HATE to admit it...
GOKU LEVEL 4 or even LEVEL 3 would murder SUPERMAN

I was arguing about SUPERMAN PRIME.

[Guyverjay]

Krpton thinks he could fly into a red star ....EASILY ??

Bwhahahahahahahaha

[Krpton]

ok there are 3 things that u need to win in a fight:

1. speed
2.strength
3.smart

ok i think everyone agrees that superman in his prime is faster than goku?

and as for stregth, this is what guyverjay said few days ago

"There is no proof. You can only say who the greatest feat of strength not who is the strongest

Superman has greater feats of physcial strenght.

Physical strength alone is quite meaningless in the DB universe, so thats why you rarely see any physical strength feats at all."


so from what we see superman has the greater feat of strength, so from what we have seen superman is stronger than goku, right? even guyverjay said that.

and for being smart we all agree superman is smarter than goku. although goku is a fighting genious, so is superman and supes is also smart in day to day. so if u had to choose who is smarter, who would u choose, exactly, superman.

so if im not wrong i say superman would win, agree?

[GammaBeast]

ok there are 3 things that u need to win in a fight:

1. speed
2.strength
3.smart

Wrong. Those are factors, but there is A LOT more to winning a fight than just that. First off the environment in which their fighting matters. If their on a planet with a Red Suns supes is done.

Also Goku's energy attacks are his big advantage and thats not covered by anything on there.

ok i think everyone agrees that superman in his prime is faster than goku?

I'm not so sure about that, Goku in his prime can go many times faster than the speed of light, so you don't know who is faster for sure. Even if supes is faster (which I don't think he is) how often does he USE that speed in a FIGHT?

Goku is used to fighting a super speeds constantly.

and as for stregth, this is what guyverjay said few days ago

"There is no proof. You can only say who the greatest feat of strength not who is the strongest

Superman has greater feats of physcial strenght.

Physical strength alone is quite meaningless in the DB universe, so thats why you rarely see any physical strength feats at all."


so from what we see superman has the greater feat of strength, so from what we have seen superman is stronger than goku, right? even guyverjay said that.

From what we have SEEN yes, but you still can't PROVE anything. Let say he is stronger, that doesn't matter. It's not a fist fight. Goku's KI blasts would decimate supes. His body can absorb SOLAR energy, but not spirit energy. So he wouldn't have anything to protect him against Goku's attacks.

and for being smart we all agree superman is smarter than goku. although goku is a fighting genious, so is superman and supes is also smart in day to day. so if u had to choose who is smarter, who would u choose, exactly, superman.

Smart? Hmmm how would every day smarts matter in a fight like this? Goku is the greatest martial artists you'll see in anime, he is brilliant at fighting. Supes at best is an average fighter. How will his everyday smarts help him overcome the serious gap in fighting skill?

so if im not wrong i say superman would win, agree?

No I don't agree.

[Krpton]

"ok there are 3 things that u need to win in a fight:

1. speed
2.strength
3.smart

Wrong. Those are factors, but there is A LOT more to winning a fight than just that. First off the environment in which their fighting matters. If their on a planet with a Red Suns supes is done."

but if its next to the sun, the gokus done.
a super nove, goku is done.
a cosmic wormhole- a catastrophic, goku is done.



"Also Goku's energy attacks are his big advantage and thats not covered by anything on there."

but superman can take a kamehameha easily, and just swipe it away or just blow it back.



"ok i think everyone agrees that superman in his prime is faster than goku?

I'm not so sure about that, Goku in his prime can go many times faster than the speed of light, so you don't know who is faster for sure. Even if supes is faster (which I don't think he is) how often does he USE that speed in a FIGHT?"

ok, fisrtly know one knows how fast anyone is, we are basing this fight on what we see, we cant just makup stuff. so from what we have seen supes is faster, we might not even know supes full speed, so u cant say wht couldve been.
plus supes uses superspeed when he needs to, so he woulnt get as tired quickly as goku. plus gokus firballs are not coming at superspeed, its just goku's puches and kicks and that woulodnt harm superman. supers just has to stand there and h wont feel a thing.


"Goku is used to fighting a super speeds constantly."

what does that prove, so ur saying superman cant, i dont think so.

"and as for stregth, this is what guyverjay said few days ago

"There is no proof. You can only say who the greatest feat of strength not who is the strongest

Superman has greater feats of physcial strenght.

Physical strength alone is quite meaningless in the DB universe, so thats why you rarely see any physical strength feats at all."


so from what we see superman has the greater feat of strength, so from what we have seen superman is stronger than goku, right? even guyverjay said that.

From what we have SEEN yes, but you still can't PROVE anything. Let say he is stronger, that doesn't matter. It's not a fist fight. Goku's KI blasts would decimate supes. His body can absorb SOLAR energy, but not spirit energy. So he wouldn't have anything to protect him against Goku's attacks."

ok, fisrtly know one knows how strong anyone is, we are basing this fight on what we see, we cant just makup stuff. so from what we have seen supes is stronger, we might not even know supes full strength, so u cant say wht couldve been. but superman is faster than the firballs so he could dodge it or just swipe it away easily, blow it back, freeze it.



"and for being smart we all agree superman is smarter than goku. although goku is a fighting genious, so is superman and supes is also smart in day to day. so if u had to choose who is smarter, who would u choose, exactly, superman.

Smart? Hmmm how would every day smarts matter in a fight like this? Goku is the greatest martial artists you'll see in anime, he is brilliant at fighting. Supes at best is an average fighter. How will his everyday smarts help him overcome the serious gap in fighting skill?"

goku is the greatest martialists but superman is also a fighting genious, but not a martialisists, but still being smart in figting.



"so if im not wrong i say superman would win, agree?

No I don't agree."


y not, the proof is there that from what we have SEEN supes is stronger and faster and more durable, and that what anyone need to win in a fight.

[GammaBeast]

scientifically, u dont have to damage the skin, it is just particles that enter ur nose, which forces him to sneeze, but doesn not irratate or damage the skin in any way.
but anyway gopku gets sick, he gets injured and superman doesnt.

Irritation = damage. If something is irritating your body it is doing some damage.

but if its next to the sun, the gokus done.
a super nove, goku is done.
a cosmic wormhole- a catastrophic, goku is done.

WTF does that prove? If its next to a red sun Superman is done, it if's during a full moon superman is done. ^_^^_^^_^^_^ like that is meaningless.


but superman can take a kamehameha easily, and just swipe it away or just blow it back.

I doubt he could take Goku's ultimate kamehameha in his SS4 form. And in order to swipe it away his bio energy would have to be higher than Goku's. I severely doubt that, Goku can wipe out a Galaxy, which is billions of solar systems. I doubt supes has that kind of energy in his body.

And as for blowing it back, your saying he is going to blow back pure energy? I don't think that is physically possible.

ok, fisrtly know one knows how fast anyone is, we are basing this fight on what we see, we cant just makup stuff. so from what we have seen supes is faster, we might not even know supes full speed, so u cant say wht couldve been.
plus supes uses superspeed when he needs to, so he woulnt get as tired quickly as goku. plus gokus firballs are not coming at superspeed, its just goku's puches and kicks and that woulodnt harm superman. supers just has to stand there and h wont feel a thing.

Ok Goku is able to move fast enough to be invisible to everyone else who can also move at super speeds, he also attacks at super speeds invisible to some people.

"Goku is used to fighting a super speeds constantly."

what does that prove, so ur saying superman cant, i dont think so.

I'm not saying he can't, I'm saying he NEVER DOES. He doesn't use his speed in a fight and if he did Goku would still have far more practice fighting at that speed.

ok, fisrtly know one knows how strong anyone is, we are basing this fight on what we see, we cant just makup stuff. so from what we have seen supes is stronger, we might not even know supes full strength, so u cant say wht couldve been. but superman is faster than the firballs so he could dodge it or just swipe it away easily, blow it back, freeze it.

I covered those other points, but freeze pure energy? That is also not physically possible.

goku is the greatest martialists but superman is also a fighting genious, but not a martialisists, but still being smart in figting.

How is he a fighting genius? He just punches into his enemies, or throws things at them. Even if he was "smart at fighting" Goku's fighting skills are so far beyond supes it's not even funny. Denying that is naive.


y not, the proof is there that from what we have SEEN supes is stronger and faster and more durable, and that what anyone need to win in a fight.

Still your wrong. Being stronger, faster and more durable are factors, but not all there is to win a fight (I also still say supes isn't superior to Goku in those areas). Fighting skill is also a BIG factor and Goku is FAR beyond supes in that area. Your also ignoring Goku's KI attacks. Supes can't just swipe/blow it away or....FREEZE it :eek:!

Think about when Goku went into his fight with Frieza, Frieza was like 20 times stronger, faster and more durable. Yet Goku (as with all Saiyans) got stronger and stronger during the fight and eventually beat Frieza.

[Krpton]

"but if its next to the sun, the gokus done.
a super nove, goku is done.
a cosmic wormhole- a catastrophic, goku is done.

WTF does that prove? If its next to a red sun Superman is done, it if's during a full moon superman is done. ^_^^_^^_^^_^ like that is meaningless."

this is what u said:
"Wrong. Those are factors, but there is A LOT more to winning a fight than just that. First off the environment in which their fighting matters. If their on a planet with a Red Suns supes is done."

that y i said those other things, even though it dont prove nothing. so y u say it if it dont prove nothing.



"but superman can take a kamehameha easily, and just swipe it away or just blow it back.

I doubt he could take Goku's ultimate kamehameha in his SS4 form. And in order to swipe it away his bio energy would have to be higher than Goku's. I severely doubt that, Goku can wipe out a Galaxy, which is billions of solar systems. I doubt supes has that kind of energy in his body.

And as for blowing it back, your saying he is going to blow back pure energy? I don't think that is physically possible."

a fully powered up supes comes back from the sun can take a fully powered up ssj4 kamehameha easily, but i still think supes coulkd take it normally. but what is faster superman or a kamehameha, supes will see it a mile away

of course it is possible, anything can be blown. prove that it cant.



"ok, fisrtly know one knows how fast anyone is, we are basing this fight on what we see, we cant just makup stuff. so from what we have seen supes is faster, we might not even know supes full speed, so u cant say wht couldve been.
plus supes uses superspeed when he needs to, so he woulnt get as tired quickly as goku. plus gokus firballs are not coming at superspeed, its just goku's puches and kicks and that woulodnt harm superman. supers just has to stand there and h wont feel a thing.

"Ok Goku is able to move fast enough to be invisible to everyone else who can also move at super speeds, he also attacks at super speeds invisible to some people."

so can supes, and he flew so fast past the moon and it cracke in half, while ssj3 gotenks a bit weaker than ssj4 took 20 mins to fly around the earth 8 times. from what we have SEEN supes is faster, untill i see goku break planets in half with his speed then he iisnt faster than supes.



""Goku is used to fighting a super speeds constantly."

what does that prove, so ur saying superman cant, i dont think so.

I'm not saying he can't, I'm saying he NEVER DOES. He doesn't use his speed in a fight and if he did Goku would still have far more practice fighting at that speed."

so what, supes might have already mastered it, he dont need practice.



"ok, fisrtly know one knows how strong anyone is, we are basing this fight on what we see, we cant just makup stuff. so from what we have seen supes is stronger, we might not even know supes full strength, so u cant say wht couldve been. but superman is faster than the firballs so he could dodge it or just swipe it away easily, blow it back, freeze it.

"I covered those other points, but freeze pure energy? That is also not physically possible."

maybe, i dont know, but i want proof that it cant be frozen. but im sure he can blow it away.



"goku is the greatest martialists but superman is also a fighting genious, but not a martialisists, but still being smart in figting.

How is he a fighting genius? He just punches into his enemies, or throws things at them. Even if he was "smart at fighting" Goku's fighting skills are so far beyond supes it's not even funny. Denying that is naive."

i admit that goku is a bettet martailists, but a puch is a puch and a kick is a kick (nothing is good as a big boot, lol) but superman is smart at fighting.



"y not, the proof is there that from what we have SEEN supes is stronger and faster and more durable, and that what anyone need to win in a fight.

Still your wrong. Being stronger, faster and more durable are factors, but not all there is to win a fight (I also still say supes isn't superior to Goku in those areas). Fighting skill is also a BIG factor and Goku is FAR beyond supes in that area. Your also ignoring Goku's KI attacks. Supes can't just swipe/blow it away or....FREEZE it !"

if ur faster and stronger, u dont need fighting skills, u just need to kow how to punch and kick. supes can swipe and blow it away, if u think he cant then he can dodge because we all agree that supes is faster than a fireball, because in the anime we can see it come from a mile away. (not literally of course).


"Think about when Goku went into his fight with Frieza, Frieza was like 20 times stronger, faster and more durable. Yet Goku (as with all Saiyans) got stronger and stronger during the fight and eventually beat Frieza."

at that time goku wasnt faster stronger or more durbale, he was weaker. slower and less durable that frieza. but after he got some training in the gravity chamber, healed himslef up with a senzu beam, got angry from krillins death, thats when he became stronger, faster and more durable.


ok but from what we have SEEN supes is more faster, stronger and more durable right?

just a yes or no answer?

[GammaBeast]

this is what u said:
"Wrong. Those are factors, but there is A LOT more to winning a fight than just that. First off the environment in which their fighting matters. If their on a planet with a Red Suns supes is done."

that y i said those other things, even though it dont prove nothing. so y u say it if it dont prove nothing.

Because all that would prove is that supes can win if he's given the advantage and Goku could win if he's given the advantage. It doesn't pertain to this debate which is if they were on a level playing field.



a fully powered up supes comes back from the sun can take a fully powered up ssj4 kamehameha easily, but i still think supes coulkd take it normally. but what is faster superman or a kamehameha, supes will see it a mile away

of course it is possible, anything can be blown. prove that it cant.

Energy doesn't have mass like wind does. It's not composed of matter, in order to blow it away supes would have to blow hard enough to bend the very fabric of existence.


so can supes, and he flew so fast past the moon and it cracke in half, while ssj3 gotenks a bit weaker than ssj4 took 20 mins to fly around the earth 8 times. from what we have SEEN supes is faster, untill i see goku break planets in half with his speed then he iisnt faster than supes.

Where are you getting that? SS3 gotenks just a bit weaker than SS4 Goku!?!?!?!? Are you insane? SS3 Goku was stronger than SS3 Gotenks. Healing from his battle with Kid Buu would have put him way beyond SS3 Gotenks.

Even if he wasn't, there is 10 YEARS of training between the Kid Buu fight and the end of DBZ (before the BEGINNING of GT). Goku's power would have increased so much it's not even funny. Then you have to take into consideration all his training in GT (which adds up to over a century). At that point he would be stronger than SS3 Gotenks in his base form, let alone going SS4.



so what, supes might have already mastered it, he dont need practice.

Wait...he MIGHT have already mastered it? You just pulled that out of thin air, there is NOTHING to back up that he could do that.

"ok, fisrtly know one knows how strong anyone is, we are basing this fight on what we see, we cant just makup stuff. so from what we have seen supes is stronger, we might not even know supes full strength, so u cant say wht couldve been. but superman is faster than the firballs so he could dodge it or just swipe it away easily, blow it back, freeze it.

"I covered those other points, but freeze pure energy? That is also not physically possible."

maybe, i dont know, but i want proof that it cant be frozen. but im sure he can blow it away.

Frozen. Hmmmm ice is composed of matter, energy is not the same as matter. And for something to freeze it has to have moisture in it, energy does not.


I admit that goku is a bettet martailists, but a puch is a puch and a kick is a kick (nothing is good as a big boot, lol) but superman is smart at fighting.

A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick? Go tell that to Bruce Lee. While you try to punch him in the face he'll gouge you in the throat and dislocate your arm. Someone who is a skilled fighter can easily stand up to someone who just punches and kicks.

at that time goku wasnt faster stronger or more durbale, he was weaker. slower and less durable that frieza. but after he got some training in the gravity chamber, healed himslef up with a senzu beam, got angry from krillins death, thats when he became stronger, faster and more durable.


ok but from what we have SEEN supes is more faster, stronger and more durable right?

just a yes or no answer?

No. Goku can withstand attacks capable of wiping out Galaxies (billions of Solar Systems). He is capable of going several times the speed of light, as for physical strength. From what is seen supes looks stronger, but logically Goku is stronger.

Think back to DB. When he was a child with a power level of like 50. Goku could move a small mountain after training with master Roshi. Now multiply that a billion or so times and thats his current strength.

And your wrong about the Frieza battle. Did you even watch DBZ? Frieza was FAR beyond Goku after his training in the gravity chamber and being healed. Frieza kicked the crap out of him but Goku got stronger and stronger as the fight went on.

You need to remember Goku can't die, so any injuries by supes will just make him stronger.

[Krpton]

"of course it is possible, anything can be blown. prove that it cant.
Energy doesn't have mass like wind does. It's not composed of matter, in order to blow it away supes would have to blow hard enough to bend the very fabric of existence."

supes can do that.


"Ok Goku is able to move fast enough to be invisible to everyone else who can also move at super speeds, he also attacks at super speeds invisible to some people."

so can supes, and he flew so fast past the moon and it cracke in half, while ssj3 gotenks a bit weaker than ssj4 took 20 mins to fly around the earth 8 times. from what we have SEEN supes is faster, untill i see goku break planets in half with his speed then he iisnt faster than supes.


"Where are you getting that? SS3 gotenks just a bit weaker than SS4 Goku!?!?!?!? Are you insane? SS3 Goku was stronger than SS3 Gotenks. Healing from his battle with Kid Buu would have put him way beyond SS3 Gotenks."

ssj3 gotenks easily could have beat super buu, super buu is stronger than kid buu, but gotenks was just playing around wid him and the fusion wore off, kid buu is the 4th or 5th strongest so ssj3 goku was weaker than ssj3 gotenks.


"Even if he wasn't, there is 10 YEARS of training between the Kid Buu fight and the end of DBZ (before the BEGINNING of GT). Goku's power would have increased so much it's not even funny. Then you have to take into consideration all his training in GT (which adds up to over a century). At that point he would be stronger than SS3 Gotenks in his base form, let alone going SS4."

u dont know if goten and trunks trained in that time at then end of gt.


"Wait...he MIGHT have already mastered it? You just pulled that out of thin air, there is NOTHING to back up that he could do that."

might - that was a typo, anyway goku doesnt not do it constantly, the highest i seen him do it is a few secs, bvut when he fight the last dragon, he is visible to everyone there because they are watching goku fight and they know what goku is exactly doing.
LOL!! I JUST FOUND OUT HE DOES USE HIS SUPERSPEED CONSISTANLYalso supers does do it consistanly, he did when he was fighting captain marvel, he used his superspeed consistantly in that battle and there were more villans that he used superspeed with consistanly. also he reversed time without stopping with hi speed, moves planets with it, escape stuff with his superspeed with all thats going on around with bare distractions and still used his superspeed consistanly.
anyway goku doesnt fights in supersepeed then stop talk, then we are able to see his puches and kicks. so he doesnt use his superseed consistanly in a fight also, but im not saying he cant.


"Frozen. Hmmmm ice is composed of matter, energy is not the same as matter. And for something to freeze it has to have moisture in it, energy does not."

sups will put moisture and then freeze it.


"A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick? Go tell that to Bruce Lee. While you try to punch him in the face he'll gouge you in the throat and dislocate your arm. Someone who is a skilled fighter can easily stand up to someone who just punches and kicks."

whts ur point, u cant do that to supes anyway, u cant rip him apart, its immposable, he cant die from pain.


"if ur faster and stronger, u dont need fighting skills, u just need to kow how to punch and kick. supes can swipe and blow it away, if u think he cant then he can dodge because we all agree that supes is faster than a fireball, because in the anime we can see it come from a mile away. (not literally of course).


"ok but from what we have SEEN supes is more faster, stronger and more durable right?
just a yes or no answer?

No. Goku can withstand attacks capable of wiping out Galaxies (billions of Solar Systems). He is capable of going several times the speed of light, as for physical strength. From what is seen supes looks stronger, but logically Goku is stronger.


"Think back to DB. When he was a child with a power level of like 50. Goku could move a small mountain after training with master Roshi. Now multiply that a billion or so times and thats his current strength."

u say goku is capable of goin severla times the speed of light, how much do u mean by several? ok u admit supes is stronger. could i just add supes wasnt even trying when he does use his super strength, he does it wid simple ease so imagine if he does, or when he gets a boost from the sun.


"And your wrong about the Frieza battle. Did you even watch DBZ? Frieza was FAR beyond Goku after his training in the gravity chamber and being healed. Frieza kicked the crap out of him but Goku got stronger and stronger as the fight went on."

whts ur point, goku gets stronger in a fight but only by a little in every fight he has.


"You need to remember Goku can't die, so any injuries by supes will just make him stronger."

prove that goku cant die, it was never stated, we really dont know, the last i checked u have to fuse with the dragon to become immkortal, but goku never at the end of gt, he just flew off with the dragon.
also Goku is not immortal, because to become immortal you have to fuse with the DRAGON not the dragonballs, What happens is the dragon is not pure yet so Goku decides to help the dragon in order to keep the dragonballs around. So Goku gets on the dragons back and goes with him. About 100 years later he is a young adult because he only aged 10 years with the dragon while purifying him. That is why Goku is about 20 years old there, that is why he is not immortal, that is why he is still alive at the end of GT. He doesn't age because he is with the dragon purifying the balls. It never makes him immortal, just that he ages slower due to the time he spends with the dragon. That's all, he's not immortal, he's not dead, he's just back to his old self again. Shenlong explains that no more wishes can be made, but Gokuh asks for one more. Everyone killed in the fighting is brought back to life. Shenlong then tells Gokuh to come with him. Gokuh gets on Shenlong's back and goes to say his final goodbye's to all his friends. While on Shenlong's back, all of the Dragonballs enter into Gokuh's body and then he disappears. We are brought back 100 years and Vegeta Jr. and Gokuh Jr. are fighting in the Tenkaichi Budoukai, in the crowd Pan sees Gokuh, but she can not catch up with him. All the highlights from the series are then shown.

Since Goku is pure of heart then he absorbs them in order to purify the balls, not become immortal. He said he would never allow anyone to come back to life. I think that is some pretty negative energy there. I understand your reasoning, but most of the plots in DBGT leave it not even close to the DBZ plots so they wouldn't have done it for that reason. The only logical explanation is that the dragonballs were absorbed by Goku in order to purify them. Beating the dragons meant nothing as Shenron takes Goku with him. If Shenron did not want the dragonballs with anyone then why Goku? In order to purify them completely thus that is why he is not immortal, just he did not age as much during the purification process.



ok but what is faster goku's max speed or his instant transmission?


but from what we have seen supes turned back time, goku didnt, not saying he cant but not saying he can.
so cuz supes did it and goku didnt, from what we have seen supes is faster, and also supes destroyed the planets with his speed and goku didnt.

so from what we have SEEN supes is faster, agree? everyone would agee wid me there who has read the comics, and watch gt, i read alot of people said that supes is faster in his prime, even the dbz ppl.

[GammaBeast]

Im not reading through all that, atleast do the curtious thing that Im doing and single out the speicif passages your debating instead of putting all the old quotes down.

[Super_Child]

Well done Krpton you win the award for 'Best making SH** up'

[GammaBeast]

Originally posted by Super_Child
Well done Krpton you win the award for 'Best making SH** up'

Thank you.

[Krpton]

ok ive edited that post, read it i added some stuff. and reduced the quoutes.

i dont mkae ^_^^_^^_^^_^ up. (pfft)

[Bapman]

WEll.... doesn't MATTER....
Our CURRENt or PRE-CRISIS SUPERMAN can't beat GOKU over level 2 as in LEVEL 3 n 4.

If you have seen GOKU in action u'll know HOW GODDAMN POWERFUL GOKU is.

He's SOOO FREAKING powerful tht its scary.

SUPER-PRIME is a completely different character.... I brough it up 'cause everyonr was arguing about SUPERMAN VS GOKU.

[Guyverjay]

Oh for Gods sake why are you still entertaining this joker?


He copies and pastes other people opinions (from other sites) and pretends they are his own.

He hasn't even any read superman comics

He makes up so much crap its not even funny.

"sups will put moisture and then freeze it."

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

[Shyair]

Oh jesus.

Bakayaru.

[Kroc1138]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
I don't underestimate supes, I think you underestimate Goku.

You still didn't answer my question, if he is Omnipotent("all powerful") why didn't he know why people were running from him? And why couldn't he just will it to stop? He should have been able to just will something and have it be done.It was power that he didn't want at the time, so why would he do that anyway? He held on to the sword and gave it up.

I have no doubts the sword made him powerful, but not omnipotent. The only omnipotent being in the DC universe is the Spectre. By it's very definition only one person at a time can be Omnipotent. That's not entirely true on numerous occasions there have been more than one omnipotent beings, they just have varying power levels (i.e. Mr Mxyptlk, the Q Continuum from Star Trek).

There is also no actual indication of what his power would be other than he would be immortal. everything you say is just theory and speculation. True, the same goes for you argument that SSJ 4 Goku is even close to PreCrisis Supes in strength, or that Superman can't survive the destruction of the Universe.

Oh and since Superman could punch a hole in space that can easily be correalated to saying that he is far sturdier than the universe itself, and that he could destroy the universe with brute strenght alone.

[Kroc1138]

Originally posted by Krpton
"of course it is possible, anything can be blown. prove that it cant.
Energy doesn't have mass like wind does. It's not composed of matter, in order to blow it away supes would have to blow hard enough to bend the very fabric of existence."

supes can do that.


"Ok Goku is able to move fast enough to be invisible to everyone else who can also move at super speeds, he also attacks at super speeds invisible to some people."

so can supes, and he flew so fast past the moon and it cracke in half, while ssj3 gotenks a bit weaker than ssj4 took 20 mins to fly around the earth 8 times. from what we have SEEN supes is faster, untill i see goku break planets in half with his speed then he iisnt faster than supes.


"Where are you getting that? SS3 gotenks just a bit weaker than SS4 Goku!?!?!?!? Are you insane? SS3 Goku was stronger than SS3 Gotenks. Healing from his battle with Kid Buu would have put him way beyond SS3 Gotenks."

ssj3 gotenks easily could have beat super buu, super buu is stronger than kid buu, but gotenks was just playing around wid him and the fusion wore off, kid buu is the 4th or 5th strongest so ssj3 goku was weaker than ssj3 gotenks.


"Even if he wasn't, there is 10 YEARS of training between the Kid Buu fight and the end of DBZ (before the BEGINNING of GT). Goku's power would have increased so much it's not even funny. Then you have to take into consideration all his training in GT (which adds up to over a century). At that point he would be stronger than SS3 Gotenks in his base form, let alone going SS4."

u dont know if goten and trunks trained in that time at then end of gt.


"Wait...he MIGHT have already mastered it? You just pulled that out of thin air, there is NOTHING to back up that he could do that."

might - that was a typo, anyway goku doesnt not do it constantly, the highest i seen him do it is a few secs, bvut when he fight the last dragon, he is visible to everyone there because they are watching goku fight and they know what goku is exactly doing.
LOL!! I JUST FOUND OUT HE DOES USE HIS SUPERSPEED CONSISTANLYalso supers does do it consistanly, he did when he was fighting captain marvel, he used his superspeed consistantly in that battle and there were more villans that he used superspeed with consistanly. also he reversed time without stopping with hi speed, moves planets with it, escape stuff with his superspeed with all thats going on around with bare distractions and still used his superspeed consistanly.
anyway goku doesnt fights in supersepeed then stop talk, then we are able to see his puches and kicks. so he doesnt use his superseed consistanly in a fight also, but im not saying he cant.


"Frozen. Hmmmm ice is composed of matter, energy is not the same as matter. And for something to freeze it has to have moisture in it, energy does not."

sups will put moisture and then freeze it.


"A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick? Go tell that to Bruce Lee. While you try to punch him in the face he'll gouge you in the throat and dislocate your arm. Someone who is a skilled fighter can easily stand up to someone who just punches and kicks."

whts ur point, u cant do that to supes anyway, u cant rip him apart, its immposable, he cant die from pain.


"if ur faster and stronger, u dont need fighting skills, u just need to kow how to punch and kick. supes can swipe and blow it away, if u think he cant then he can dodge because we all agree that supes is faster than a fireball, because in the anime we can see it come from a mile away. (not literally of course).


"ok but from what we have SEEN supes is more faster, stronger and more durable right?
just a yes or no answer?

No. Goku can withstand attacks capable of wiping out Galaxies (billions of Solar Systems). He is capable of going several times the speed of light, as for physical strength. From what is seen supes looks stronger, but logically Goku is stronger.


"Think back to DB. When he was a child with a power level of like 50. Goku could move a small mountain after training with master Roshi. Now multiply that a billion or so times and thats his current strength."

u say goku is capable of goin severla times the speed of light, how much do u mean by several? ok u admit supes is stronger. could i just add supes wasnt even trying when he does use his super strength, he does it wid simple ease so imagine if he does, or when he gets a boost from the sun.


"And your wrong about the Frieza battle. Did you even watch DBZ? Frieza was FAR beyond Goku after his training in the gravity chamber and being healed. Frieza kicked the crap out of him but Goku got stronger and stronger as the fight went on."

whts ur point, goku gets stronger in a fight but only by a little in every fight he has.


"You need to remember Goku can't die, so any injuries by supes will just make him stronger."

prove that goku cant die, it was never stated, we really dont know, the last i checked u have to fuse with the dragon to become immkortal, but goku never at the end of gt, he just flew off with the dragon.
also Goku is not immortal, because to become immortal you have to fuse with the DRAGON not the dragonballs, What happens is the dragon is not pure yet so Goku decides to help the dragon in order to keep the dragonballs around. So Goku gets on the dragons back and goes with him. About 100 years later he is a young adult because he only aged 10 years with the dragon while purifying him. That is why Goku is about 20 years old there, that is why he is not immortal, that is why he is still alive at the end of GT. He doesn't age because he is with the dragon purifying the balls. It never makes him immortal, just that he ages slower due to the time he spends with the dragon. That's all, he's not immortal, he's not dead, he's just back to his old self again. Shenlong explains that no more wishes can be made, but Gokuh asks for one more. Everyone killed in the fighting is brought back to life. Shenlong then tells Gokuh to come with him. Gokuh gets on Shenlong's back and goes to say his final goodbye's to all his friends. While on Shenlong's back, all of the Dragonballs enter into Gokuh's body and then he disappears. We are brought back 100 years and Vegeta Jr. and Gokuh Jr. are fighting in the Tenkaichi Budoukai, in the crowd Pan sees Gokuh, but she can not catch up with him. All the highlights from the series are then shown.

Since Goku is pure of heart then he absorbs them in order to purify the balls, not become immortal. He said he would never allow anyone to come back to life. I think that is some pretty negative energy there. I understand your reasoning, but most of the plots in DBGT leave it not even close to the DBZ plots so they wouldn't have done it for that reason. The only logical explanation is that the dragonballs were absorbed by Goku in order to purify them. Beating the dragons meant nothing as Shenron takes Goku with him. If Shenron did not want the dragonballs with anyone then why Goku? In order to purify them completely thus that is why he is not immortal, just he did not age as much during the purification process.



ok but what is faster goku's max speed or his instant transmission?


but from what we have seen supes turned back time, goku didnt, not saying he cant but not saying he can.
so cuz supes did it and goku didnt, from what we have seen supes is faster, and also supes destroyed the planets with his speed and goku didnt.

so from what we have SEEN supes is faster, agree? everyone would agee wid me there who has read the comics, and watch gt, i read alot of people said that supes is faster in his prime, even the dbz ppl. Stop before you start. I can handle it. You not making much sense.

[Krpton]

"He copies and pastes other people opinions (from other sites) and pretends they are his own.

He hasn't even any read superman comics

He makes up so much crap its not even funny."


i dont do that, it is me on the other sites, it my user, that i copy and past, and i jut did tha once.

[GammaBeast]

Krpton is it at all possible for you to put what other people say in bold or italics? It's hard to tell the difference between what they said and what you're saying.

And you are making some stuff up, how exactly do you put moisture into pure energy?

[Krpton]

of course it is possible, anything can be blown. prove that it cant.
Energy doesn't have mass like wind does. It's not composed of matter, in order to blow it away supes would have to blow hard enough to bend the very fabric of existence.

supes can do that.


Ok Goku is able to move fast enough to be invisible to everyone else who can also move at super speeds, he also attacks at super speeds invisible to some people.

so can supes, and he flew so fast past the moon and it cracke in half, while ssj3 gotenks a bit weaker than ssj4 took 20 mins to fly around the earth 8 times. from what we have SEEN supes is faster, untill i see goku break planets in half with his speed then he iisnt faster than supes.


Where are you getting that? SS3 gotenks just a bit weaker than SS4 Goku!?!?!?!? Are you insane? SS3 Goku was stronger than SS3 Gotenks. Healing from his battle with Kid Buu would have put him way beyond SS3 Gotenks.

ssj3 gotenks easily could have beat super buu, super buu is stronger than kid buu, but gotenks was just playing around wid him and the fusion wore off, kid buu is the 4th or 5th strongest so ssj3 goku was weaker than ssj3 gotenks.


Even if he wasn't, there is 10 YEARS of training between the Kid Buu fight and the end of DBZ (before the BEGINNING of GT). Goku's power would have increased so much it's not even funny. Then you have to take into consideration all his training in GT (which adds up to over a century). At that point he would be stronger than SS3 Gotenks in his base form, let alone going SS4.

u dont know if goten and trunks trained in that time at then end of gt.


Wait...he MIGHT have already mastered it? You just pulled that out of thin air, there is NOTHING to back up that he could do that.

might - that was a typo, anyway goku doesnt not do it constantly, the highest i seen him do it is a few secs, bvut when he fight the last dragon, he is visible to everyone there because they are watching goku fight and they know what goku is exactly doing.
LOL!! I JUST FOUND OUT HE DOES USE HIS SUPERSPEED CONSISTANLYalso supers does do it consistanly, he did when he was fighting captain marvel, he used his superspeed consistantly in that battle and there were more villans that he used superspeed with consistanly. also he reversed time without stopping with hi speed, moves planets with it, escape stuff with his superspeed with all thats going on around with bare distractions and still used his superspeed consistanly.
anyway goku doesnt fights in supersepeed then stop talk, then we are able to see his puches and kicks. so he doesnt use his superseed consistanly in a fight also, but im not saying he cant.


Frozen. Hmmmm ice is composed of matter, energy is not the same as matter. And for something to freeze it has to have moisture in it, energy does not.

sups will put moisture and then freeze it.


A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick? Go tell that to Bruce Lee. While you try to punch him in the face he'll gouge you in the throat and dislocate your arm. Someone who is a skilled fighter can easily stand up to someone who just punches and kicks.

whts ur point, u cant do that to supes anyway, u cant rip him apart, its immposable, he cant die from pain.


if ur faster and stronger, u dont need fighting skills, u just need to kow how to punch and kick. supes can swipe and blow it away, if u think he cant then he can dodge because we all agree that supes is faster than a fireball, because in the anime we can see it come from a mile away. (not literally of course).


ok but from what we have SEEN supes is more faster, stronger and more durable right?
just a yes or no answer?

No. Goku can withstand attacks capable of wiping out Galaxies (billions of Solar Systems). He is capable of going several times the speed of light, as for physical strength. From what is seen supes looks stronger, but logically Goku is stronger.


"Think back to DB. When he was a child with a power level of like 50. Goku could move a small mountain after training with master Roshi. Now multiply that a billion or so times and thats his current strength."

u say goku is capable of goin severla times the speed of light, how much do u mean by several? ok u admit supes is stronger. could i just add supes wasnt even trying when he does use his super strength, he does it wid simple ease so imagine if he does, or when he gets a boost from the sun.


And your wrong about the Frieza battle. Did you even watch DBZ? Frieza was FAR beyond Goku after his training in the gravity chamber and being healed. Frieza kicked the crap out of him but Goku got stronger and stronger as the fight went on.

whts ur point, goku gets stronger in a fight but only by a little in every fight he has.


You need to remember Goku can't die, so any injuries by supes will just make him stronger.

prove that goku cant die, it was never stated, we really dont know, the last i checked u have to fuse with the dragon to become immkortal, but goku never at the end of gt, he just flew off with the dragon.
also Goku is not immortal, because to become immortal you have to fuse with the DRAGON not the dragonballs, What happens is the dragon is not pure yet so Goku decides to help the dragon in order to keep the dragonballs around. So Goku gets on the dragons back and goes with him. About 100 years later he is a young adult because he only aged 10 years with the dragon while purifying him. That is why Goku is about 20 years old there, that is why he is not immortal, that is why he is still alive at the end of GT. He doesn't age because he is with the dragon purifying the balls. It never makes him immortal, just that he ages slower due to the time he spends with the dragon. That's all, he's not immortal, he's not dead, he's just back to his old self again. Shenlong explains that no more wishes can be made, but Gokuh asks for one more. Everyone killed in the fighting is brought back to life. Shenlong then tells Gokuh to come with him. Gokuh gets on Shenlong's back and goes to say his final goodbye's to all his friends. While on Shenlong's back, all of the Dragonballs enter into Gokuh's body and then he disappears. We are brought back 100 years and Vegeta Jr. and Gokuh Jr. are fighting in the Tenkaichi Budoukai, in the crowd Pan sees Gokuh, but she can not catch up with him. All the highlights from the series are then shown.

Since Goku is pure of heart then he absorbs them in order to purify the balls, not become immortal. He said he would never allow anyone to come back to life. I think that is some pretty negative energy there. I understand your reasoning, but most of the plots in DBGT leave it not even close to the DBZ plots so they wouldn't have done it for that reason. The only logical explanation is that the dragonballs were absorbed by Goku in order to purify them. Beating the dragons meant nothing as Shenron takes Goku with him. If Shenron did not want the dragonballs with anyone then why Goku? In order to purify them completely thus that is why he is not immortal, just he did not age as much during the purification process.



ok but what is faster goku's max speed or his instant transmission?


but from what we have seen supes turned back time, goku didnt, not saying he cant but not saying he can.
so cuz supes did it and goku didnt, from what we have seen supes is faster, and also supes destroyed the planets with his speed and goku didnt.

so from what we have SEEN supes is faster, agree? everyone would agee wid me there who has read the comics, and watch gt, i read alot of people said that supes is faster in his prime, even the dbz ppl.

[GammaBeast]

Couldn't you have done something other than just copy and paste a previous post? I'm still waiting for you to explain how he'll freeze pure energy.

[Guyverjay]

Originally posted by Kroc1138
Oh and since Superman could punch a hole in space that can easily be correalated to saying that he is far sturdier than the universe itself, and that he could destroy the universe with brute strenght alone.

Er buu shouted and was making holes in the universe, does that mean that his breath is sturdier than the universe?

Hell even JUGGERNAUT has punched a hole in the fabric of space and he isn't sturdier than the universe either:o

[Krpton]

gammabeast, tell me y he cant freeze pure energy?

im doin research now, and also i have to do h/w bout energy...what a coinsidence.

[GammaBeast]

Because in order to freeze something it has to have atleast a little WATER in it. Pure energy contains NO MATTER AT ALL let alone water.

Hmmm...homework about energy? Seems a little too convenient, care to elaborate?

[Guyverjay]

He'll just tell you supes can put moisture into it

[War Lord]

Originally posted by guyverjay
He'll just tell you supes can put moisture into it

Supes can do anything.

[Krpton]

tru-dat

[Krpton]

nah but energy is surrounded by air, thus air is toching the energy, we knw that cuz of friction. so if supes put water into the air, then its in the air, cuz air is touching energy, and enrgy is touching air, the energy becomes moist, so thats when supes freezes it.

the sightest moisture, it can be frozen.

[War Lord]

Supes could always grab a bucket, quickly fly to the nearest water source, fill up with water, and then use his super breath. If it turns out to not be enough water, Supes could always grab a bucket, quickly fly to the nearest water source, fill up with water, and then use his super breath. Just keep repeating the process until there's enough water to freeze effectively.

[Krpton]

by the way, u only need the tiniest bit of moist.

no supes will use his superbreath, the melt it with his eyes with his superspeed, because the firball is not comming at superspeed.

[Guyverjay]

bwhahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhaa

[GammaBeast]

Originally posted by Krpton
by the way, u only need the tiniest bit of moist.

no supes will use his superbreath, the melt it with his eyes with his superspeed, because the firball is not comming at superspeed.

That's not only the third stupidest thing I've ever heard, but it would accomplish nothing. You're telling me an energy ball strong enough to blow up a planet can't make it through a little ice?

[Krpton]

"That's not only the third stupidest thing I've ever heard, but it would accomplish nothing. You're telling me an energy ball strong enough to blow up a planet can't make it through a little ice?"

yeh it would make it through ice, but now its still got moist in it, so supes would just freeze it.

[Krpton]

have u people read this? if not here it is again:



of course it is possible, anything can be blown. prove that it cant.
Energy doesn't have mass like wind does. It's not composed of matter, in order to blow it away supes would have to blow hard enough to bend the very fabric of existence.

supes can do that.


Ok Goku is able to move fast enough to be invisible to everyone else who can also move at super speeds, he also attacks at super speeds invisible to some people.

so can supes, and he flew so fast past the moon and it cracke in half, while ssj3 gotenks a bit weaker than ssj4 took 20 mins to fly around the earth 8 times. from what we have SEEN supes is faster, untill i see goku break planets in half with his speed then he iisnt faster than supes.


Where are you getting that? SS3 gotenks just a bit weaker than SS4 Goku!?!?!?!? Are you insane? SS3 Goku was stronger than SS3 Gotenks. Healing from his battle with Kid Buu would have put him way beyond SS3 Gotenks.

ssj3 gotenks easily could have beat super buu, super buu is stronger than kid buu, but gotenks was just playing around wid him and the fusion wore off, kid buu is the 4th or 5th strongest so ssj3 goku was weaker than ssj3 gotenks.


Even if he wasn't, there is 10 YEARS of training between the Kid Buu fight and the end of DBZ (before the BEGINNING of GT). Goku's power would have increased so much it's not even funny. Then you have to take into consideration all his training in GT (which adds up to over a century). At that point he would be stronger than SS3 Gotenks in his base form, let alone going SS4.

u dont know if goten and trunks trained in that time at then end of gt.


Wait...he MIGHT have already mastered it? You just pulled that out of thin air, there is NOTHING to back up that he could do that.

might - that was a typo, anyway goku doesnt not do it constantly, the highest i seen him do it is a few secs, bvut when he fight the last dragon, he is visible to everyone there because they are watching goku fight and they know what goku is exactly doing.
LOL!! I JUST FOUND OUT HE DOES USE HIS SUPERSPEED CONSISTANLYalso supers does do it consistanly, he did when he was fighting captain marvel, he used his superspeed consistantly in that battle and there were more villans that he used superspeed with consistanly. also he reversed time without stopping with hi speed, moves planets with it, escape stuff with his superspeed with all thats going on around with bare distractions and still used his superspeed consistanly.
anyway goku doesnt fights in supersepeed then stop talk, then we are able to see his puches and kicks. so he doesnt use his superseed consistanly in a fight also, but im not saying he cant.


Frozen. Hmmmm ice is composed of matter, energy is not the same as matter. And for something to freeze it has to have moisture in it, energy does not.

sups will put moisture and then freeze it.


A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick? Go tell that to Bruce Lee. While you try to punch him in the face he'll gouge you in the throat and dislocate your arm. Someone who is a skilled fighter can easily stand up to someone who just punches and kicks.

whts ur point, u cant do that to supes anyway, u cant rip him apart, its immposable, he cant die from pain.


if ur faster and stronger, u dont need fighting skills, u just need to kow how to punch and kick. supes can swipe and blow it away, if u think he cant then he can dodge because we all agree that supes is faster than a fireball, because in the anime we can see it come from a mile away. (not literally of course).


ok but from what we have SEEN supes is more faster, stronger and more durable right?
just a yes or no answer?

No. Goku can withstand attacks capable of wiping out Galaxies (billions of Solar Systems). He is capable of going several times the speed of light, as for physical strength. From what is seen supes looks stronger, but logically Goku is stronger.


"Think back to DB. When he was a child with a power level of like 50. Goku could move a small mountain after training with master Roshi. Now multiply that a billion or so times and thats his current strength."

u say goku is capable of goin severla times the speed of light, how much do u mean by several? ok u admit supes is stronger. could i just add supes wasnt even trying when he does use his super strength, he does it wid simple ease so imagine if he does, or when he gets a boost from the sun.


And your wrong about the Frieza battle. Did you even watch DBZ? Frieza was FAR beyond Goku after his training in the gravity chamber and being healed. Frieza kicked the crap out of him but Goku got stronger and stronger as the fight went on.

whts ur point, goku gets stronger in a fight but only by a little in every fight he has.


You need to remember Goku can't die, so any injuries by supes will just make him stronger.

prove that goku cant die, it was never stated, we really dont know, the last i checked u have to fuse with the dragon to become immkortal, but goku never at the end of gt, he just flew off with the dragon.
also Goku is not immortal, because to become immortal you have to fuse with the DRAGON not the dragonballs, What happens is the dragon is not pure yet so Goku decides to help the dragon in order to keep the dragonballs around. So Goku gets on the dragons back and goes with him. About 100 years later he is a young adult because he only aged 10 years with the dragon while purifying him. That is why Goku is about 20 years old there, that is why he is not immortal, that is why he is still alive at the end of GT. He doesn't age because he is with the dragon purifying the balls. It never makes him immortal, just that he ages slower due to the time he spends with the dragon. That's all, he's not immortal, he's not dead, he's just back to his old self again. Shenlong explains that no more wishes can be made, but Gokuh asks for one more. Everyone killed in the fighting is brought back to life. Shenlong then tells Gokuh to come with him. Gokuh gets on Shenlong's back and goes to say his final goodbye's to all his friends. While on Shenlong's back, all of the Dragonballs enter into Gokuh's body and then he disappears. We are brought back 100 years and Vegeta Jr. and Gokuh Jr. are fighting in the Tenkaichi Budoukai, in the crowd Pan sees Gokuh, but she can not catch up with him. All the highlights from the series are then shown.

Since Goku is pure of heart then he absorbs them in order to purify the balls, not become immortal. He said he would never allow anyone to come back to life. I think that is some pretty negative energy there. I understand your reasoning, but most of the plots in DBGT leave it not even close to the DBZ plots so they wouldn't have done it for that reason. The only logical explanation is that the dragonballs were absorbed by Goku in order to purify them. Beating the dragons meant nothing as Shenron takes Goku with him. If Shenron did not want the dragonballs with anyone then why Goku? In order to purify them completely thus that is why he is not immortal, just he did not age as much during the purification process.



ok but what is faster goku's max speed or his instant transmission?


but from what we have seen supes turned back time, goku didnt, not saying he cant but not saying he can.
so cuz supes did it and goku didnt, from what we have seen supes is faster, and also supes destroyed the planets with his speed and goku didnt.

so from what we have SEEN supes is faster, agree? everyone would agree wid me there who has read the comics, and watch gt, i read alot of people said that supes is faster in his prime, even the dbz ppl.

[Shyair]

You can't Freeze ambient energy thats been turned into a transient. You could halt it's perpetuation and have it crystalized but there isn't a thing Superman could do to stop a Ki blast from Goku. Not a damn thing.

[Shyair]

Also in response to the post directly above mine.

Goku didn't become immortal because of his fusing with all of the dragon balls. He became immortal because he literally SWALLOWED one of the dragonballs. Because of that, he became immortal. BUT, what made him omnipotent...is when he became one with the Dragon Shenrong himself, after the last set of the Dragonballs fused with him. It's all stated in the manga. Go read up on it sometimes.

[GammaBeast]

Thank you Shyair.

As for Goten and Trunks training. Let's assume they did train, it still wouldn't have been on the same level as Goku was training, he was fighting with Uub for 10 straight years. Also Goten and Trunks didn't look like they were training at all, Goten was occupied with girls.

Even if they DID train, you were comparing SS3 Gotenks as a child to SS4 Goku at the end of GT. So it wouldn't matter if they got stronger because you were comparing Goku to the Gotenks at THAT point in the story.

Also I don't get how people think Kid Buu is the weakest incarnation? He is the purest form of Buu. He easily kicked the crap out of the fat buu. And he was able to catch a spirit bomb that had the energy of Mystic Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Picollo etc... and the rest of the world and push it back against Goku (weakened at the time). In order to do that he would need to be stronger than the force of that spirit bomb.

[War Lord]

Does DB manga explain how buu came into existence?

[Krpton]

"You can't Freeze ambient energy thats been turned into a transient. You could halt it's perpetuation and have it crystalized but there isn't a thing Superman could do to stop a Ki blast from Goku. Not a damn thing."

too many long words, sorry, but can someone rephrase that for me? thanks.


"Goku didn't become immortal because of his fusing with all of the dragon balls. He became immortal because he literally SWALLOWED one of the dragonballs. Because of that, he became immortal. BUT, what made him omnipotent...is when he became one with the Dragon Shenrong himself, after the last set of the Dragonballs fused with him. It's all stated in the manga. Go read up on it sometimes."

theres no proof wht happen to goku, he never fused with the dragon anyway. goku could be aging slower or be immortal, we really dont know, no one know whats up wid goku at the end of gt. so from what we SEEN goku is not immortal.


if goten and trunks did train to gt, who would be stronger, ssj3 gotenks in gt or ssj3 goku in gt? exactly ssj3 gotenks.


kid buu is not the weakest, but he is weaker than super buu, buff buu, and when kidd buu absorbed the other kai's. so he is like the 4th or 5th strongest but not the weakest.


"And he was able to catch a spirit bomb that had the energy of Mystic Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Picollo etc... and the rest of the world and push it back against Goku (weakened at the time). In order to do that he would need to be stronger than the force of that spirit bomb."

what o u mean by stronger than the force of the spirit bomb?
also has it been stated that u have to be stronger tha the force?

[GammaBeast]

Hey I have a question for you. Has it been stated that superman can move 20x the speed of light? NO! But you seem to have no problem reasoning it out and making that statement. Unlike your statement about superman speed there is nothing OFFICIALLY stated going against my theory.

I reasoned that out because no one on the show has ever pushed back an energy attack from a person stronger than them. Since the Spirit Bomb had energy from all the Z-fighters and everyone on the earth it stands to reason that he is far stronger than any of them, which I think would put him above the other versions of Buu.

Also as I stated before he was the purest form of Buu.

[Krpton]

supes being 20x SOL can be proven by figuring it out.

if energy can be pushed back, then y on earth cant it be blown back?

let me get back to u soon about being stromger than the force thing.

[GammaBeast]

too many long words, sorry, but can someone rephrase that for me? thanks.

Rough translation. YOU CAN'T FREEZE ENERGY!

As we've said many times you cannot apply REAL WORLD physics to a COMIC WORLD. If supes surpasses the speed of light then not only should time itself be altered, but he should be able to see the light around him moving really really slowly. Know why you don't see that? Because real world physics do not apply.

As for pushing it back, but not blowing it back. Their bodies have energy inside them that interacts with the energy in the attacks. Look at the Spirit Bomb for instance. Pure positive energy. Gohan who is pure of heart was able to bounce it off himself because the energy in his body is also pure positive energy.

It's like putting two magnets of matching polarity next to each other, they repel. The wind supes would blow is different, it doesnt have the same spirit energy. In order for him to actually alter the coarse of energy he would have to be blowing wind with a greater force as a black hole (since it can pull in light). If he did that the earth would be destroyed.

[Krpton]

how can u tell in a comic if everything else is moving really really slow if real world phyics dont apply to a comic world.


about pushing fireballs back, it needs to come within ur body, yeh?

[GammaBeast]

how can u tell in a comic if everything else is moving really really slow if real world phyics dont apply to a comic world.

Here is how it works. If the comic writers say something happens, then it happens. Take the Hulk lifting the mountain. You can do the math and try to figure out how much a mountain range should weigh (and how it should collapse under it's own weight), but when they say it weighs 150 billion tons, thats how much it weighs...period.

They say supes can only go 99% the SOL. Thats all their is to that.

And you totally missed my point, my point was is real world physics did apply (WHICH THEY DON'T) when he was moving he should have been able to see light (from the sun) all around him moving extremely slow, and he should have been able to basically cut through it leaving a visible trail.


about pushing fireballs back, it needs to come within ur body, yeh?

There is a BIG difference between fireballs and ki balls. A fireball is just that, a ball of fire. Ki balls are energy blasts capable of destroying damn near anything.

[Krpton]

yes its true, about what the comics says, that is what it is.
but it was stated that supes was 99% SOL, before he flew through the moon, so it could be that supes has gotten faster and has improved.

but superman can lift mountains without it colapsing under its own weight, its another ability that superman has, he has a technique of doin it. it could be the same for the hulk.

im sure i see visible traills in the pictures when he used his superspeed, i seen pics of him like that.
also in smallville when he uses his superspeed, clark leaves visible trails. (smallville is based on the comics)

yeh thats what i meant fireballs ki balst, both the same to me, ut anyway, to send back a ki blast it needs to come within the body right?

[GammaBeast]

yes its true, about what the comics says, that is what it is.
but it was stated that supes was 99% SOL, before he flew through the moon, so it could be that supes has gotten faster and has improved.

That statement is pure speculation. That's like me saying in the time between when Goku and Superman meet Goku could have gotten stronger and faster. You can't just say that without some kind of official statement.

but superman can lift mountains without it colapsing under its own weight, its another ability that superman has, he has a technique of doin it. it could be the same for the hulk.

What ability would that be? I've never heard of any ability that would prevent the mountain from falling apart under it's own weight. When the mountain was on the Hulk's back it should have started to crack in half with him as the central point. The reason it didn't is because real world physics don't apply.

im sure i see visible traills in the pictures when he used his superspeed, i seen pics of him like that.
also in smallville when he uses his superspeed, clark leaves visible trails. (smallville is based on the comics)

What's your point? The speed at which he moves in smallville is nowhere near half the SOL yet he leaves a trail. I'm not talking about a trail running behind him. I'm saying the rays of sunlight that he cut through would have visible hole in them that he would have carved if he was really going 20X the speed of light.

yeh thats what i meant fireballs ki balst, both the same to me, ut anyway, to send back a ki blast it needs to come within the body right?

In order to interact with it like that you have to either be touching it or hit it with another energy blast. Because each of those have energy to counteract the energy of the blast. Supes breath does NOT!

[Kroc1138]

Originally posted by guyverjay
Er buu shouted and was making holes in the universe, does that mean that his breath is sturdier than the universe?

Hell even JUGGERNAUT has punched a hole in the fabric of space and he isn't sturdier than the universe either:o Well I'm just saying that Correlate that with all the other rediculous nonsense that he can do, and perhaps he is.

[Krpton]

In order to interact with it like that you have to either be touching it or hit it with another energy blast. Because each of those have energy to counteract the energy of the blast. Supes breath does NOT:

but super breath is still coming from inside the body.

lemme get back to u on the other posts.

[Krpton]

this is taken from the superman site:

Superman has Super Hearing, Super Breath, Super Strength, Super Speed, Telescopic Vision, X-ray Vision, Heat Vision, ability to see Radio Waves, ability to Heal at an accelerated rate, ability to see Auras around living things, Invulnerability & there is an energy field around him that prevents his clothing from being ripped and it also allows him to lift thing like cars, busses and mountains without making them collapse under their own weight.

might i add superman is possibly TK.

[GammaBeast]

Can you give me the link to where you go that from?

Even if thats true, it doesn't effect my point. My point was that Comics don't follow the laws of physics in the real world. The Hulk doesn't have that ability so the mountain should have collapsed.

As for supes breath coming from within his body...so what? That doesn't mean it has spirit energy. If any air that came into your body took some of your spirit energy you would be dead within a day.

Also, what makes you think he is telekinetic? I see no evidence of that.

[Krpton]

"That statement is pure speculation. That's like me saying in the time between when Goku and Superman meet Goku could have gotten stronger and faster. You can't just say that without some kind of official statement."

but ive got a good reason to speculate and it makes sense.

ok if its like that, then ur speculating that goku is the SOL or faster. because in the manga it has never been stated that he is, and i aint seen no pictures og goku leaving trails. (ive read the manga, so i should know.


y dont real world physicas count, cuz real world phyiacs is the foundation that the comic books are on.

plus there nothin stating that its not, then ur speculating, (like u said, unless it has been stated.)

[Krpton]

"The Hulk doesn't have that ability so the mountain should have collapsed."

prove that he doesnt have that ability, u dont know if he has.
from what we have seen hulk has because then he wouldnt have been able to do that.


"As for supes breath coming from within his body...so what? That doesn't mean it has spirit energy. If any air that came into your body took some of your spirit energy you would be dead within a day."

didnt gohan state in the manga that everyone has ki energy INSIDE their body? yes he did.


"Also, what makes you think he is telekinetic? I see no evidence of that."


what makes u think he hasnt.
when supes got cloned, there was superboy, he had TK, so it came from superman, because superboy was a CLONE.

[Guyverjay]

Originally posted by Krpton
Gee where to start:rolleyes:

prove that he doesnt have that ability, u dont know if he has.
from what we have seen hulk has because then he wouldnt have been able to do that.

Hulk doen't have that abilty. WHY? Because in over 1000 or so appearances it never been stated he has that abilty. GET IT? To have an ability a WRITER has to say so....UNDERSTAND??? The reason why he can lift something and it doesn't crumble is because the writer chooses to ignore that little fact. Even if Hulk had the abilty for an object he lifts not to crumble under its own weight. The weight of the mountain would have driven him through the ground. Bu this is a COMIC BOOK not the real world so NO ONE CARES



didnt gohan state in the manga that everyone has ki energy INSIDE their body? yes he did.

***** and PISS comes from within the body. Does THAT have spirit enrgy as well?:rolleyes:. KI is life energy, thats what is meant by "coming from inside the body".



what makes u think he hasnt.
when supes got cloned, there was superboy, he had TK, so it came from superman, because superboy was a CLONE.

AGAIN for the millionth time to have a power a writer has to give it to you. Superboy isn't an exact clone at all. Krytronian DNA is too advanced to clone. Superboy is actually part lex luthor part superman. Which is why his powers are different. If you actually READ superman you'd know this

[Krpton]

u say cuz its never been stated that hulk aint got that ability and therefore real word phyics dont count.

but it has also never been stated that real word physics dont count.


"***** and PISS comes from within the body. Does THAT have spirit enrgy as well?. KI is life energy, thats what is meant by "coming from inside the body".

wot u trying to say?


"AGAIN for the millionth time to have a power a writer has to give it to you. Superboy isn't an exact clone at all. Krytronian DNA is too advanced to clone. Superboy is actually part lex luthor part superman. Which is why his powers are different. If you actually READ superman you'd know this"

theres no proof that the ability was from lex or it could have come from superman, ppl are just speculating. But its more likly supes's ability because people say supes uses it wothout even thinking of it.

[War Lord]

Where does it say that Superboy is part Lex?

[GammaBeast]

wot u trying to say?

He's saying that just because it comes out of your body doesn't mean it has energy. If that was true everytime you spit or took a piss you would die a little. Your breath does NOT contain your life force (KI). Quite the contrary, but the time your body is ready to exhale it your lungs have stripped it of most of it's life giving nutrients.

theres no proof that the ability was from lex or it could have come from superman, ppl are just speculating. But its more likly supes's ability because people say supes uses it wothout even thinking of it.

Thats like saying making my heart beat is an ability of mine so I should be able to control it and make my heart pump to the beat of Livin la viva loca.

[Krpton]

yeh where does it state that superboy is aprt lex?


"He's saying that just because it comes out of your body doesn't mean it has energy. If that was true everytime you spit or took a piss you would die a little. Your breath does NOT contain your life force (KI). Quite the contrary, but the time your body is ready to exhale it your lungs have stripped it of most of it's life giving nutrients."

proove it that ur breath does not conatin ur life force?


"Thats like saying making my heart beat is an ability of mine so I should be able to control it and make my heart pump to the beat of Livin la viva loca."

but supes still has that ability cuz no one normal will have it, so its a special ability. but it has never been proven that he cant control it, but im sure he can.

[GammaBeast]

PROVE to me that your breath DOES contain your life force.

Your sure he can? How can you possibly be so sure without any concrete proof?

[Jager X]

Originally posted by Krpton
"He's saying that just because it comes out of your body doesn't mean it has energy. If that was true everytime you spit or took a piss you would die a little. Your breath does NOT contain your life force (KI). Quite the contrary, but the time your body is ready to exhale it your lungs have stripped it of most of it's life giving nutrients."

proove it that ur breath does not conatin ur life force?
[/B]


this is my first post in 333 days.anyways,dude are you slow or have comprehensive problems?ki is your life force,it comes from your spirit/soul.you have a physical body and a spiritual body.for example,your physical body may need sleep while your spirit doesn't.your breath does not contain your life force because,like stated before,everytime you exhale you would be slowly dying.i dont know if anyone can explain it any simpler than the previous statements already posted.

[Krpton]

"like stated before,everytime you exhale you would be slowly dying."

that true, we are slowly dying, we dont live forever, so evreytime we take a breath we are slowly dying.

[Krpton]

by the way, ill admit im slow. i dont have comprehensive problem.

"PROVE to me that your breath DOES contain your life force."

say superman uses his superbreath on someone, they will get blown away, and there is spirit energy in them right? yes.

so techniqually he blew away spirit energy.

[Guyverjay]

bwahahahahahahha

You're just plain dumb, son

[GammaBeast]

Originally posted by Krpton
say superman uses his superbreath on someone, they will get blown away, and there is spirit energy in them right? yes.

so techniqually he blew away spirit energy.

Do you realise how dumb that sounds? That doesn't prove anything. There is no way you can prove there is spirit energy in your breath, so you can't make that assumption.

Also if breathing out spirit energy is what kills us then Scuba Divers should live for hundreds of years, their trained to hold their breath for several minutes at a time their entire lives.

[hulkamania85]

I still think Superman would win. After all, he is the man of steel. GammaBeast asked me to elaborate, but I can't really. Man of Steelness is like Hulkamania(not me, Hulk Hogan's Hulkamania). It's just a force that is extremely powerful and unexplainable. Goku could beat up Superman really badly, but Superman would win in the end.

Other people that could take on Goku:

Galactus

Hulk Hogan(Hulkamania would run wild on Goku! Goku might turn Super Saiyan but that is no match for Hulk Hogan hulking up).

The Undertaker

Thor


Please note: I am not even being remotely serious when I talk about Man of Steelness and Hulkamania. Talking about who could beat up Goku is pretty silly, and I don't see why some people on this board are taking it seriously. However, I do think as far as fictional forces are concerned, Man of Steelness and Hulkamania >Super Saiyanness. Man of Steelness>Hulkamania.

[ohwattagosiam]

Anyone (else) think that Sentry (Marvel) could take Goku?

[Lobo]

I don't think Sentry could take Goku. He might force him to go Super Saiyan but thats it.

[Superbot400]

Holy Crap!!! this thread war still going

[Superbot400]

Originally posted by crazysmoke
I just had to join this converstion. Goku can easily kill the hulk with multiple distructor discs. The hulk is not stronger then goku. I esimaite goku can easily lift a planet the size of Jupiter with 1 hand. Hell he can probably kill him with a hit from his dragon fist attack. Or just knock his ass out with a hit from the back of the head. With Superman, superman can fight with him to a degree but over all if he went Super saiyan it lights out for superman.
But there are characters is the mavel universe that can kill goku. And i'm not even talking about immoral goku or the precrisis superman s h i t !

I don't want argue but, Hulk has unlimted strength. Hulk can do just about any Hero feat of strength. After all he call strongest one there is. Yes unless Hulk need to be just about Goku level. Or Hulk is deadmeat. When Goku can do that such feat. With one hand, I don't think so. Goku could barley pick up building. Dragon balls would just his strength may be hundreds thousands.

[Bapman]

WRONG !!!...
HULK bones are invulnarable... I'm not kidding... they're ARE.
Not even GALACTUS can smash thm.
n
HULK can heal from a complete skeleton to full body in 15 seconds.
Now combine that with the amoubt of rage that is gonna surface AFTER that.

GOKU is gonna be in a SERIOUS mess.

[War Lord]

What about Hal Jordan as either Parralax or Green Lantern?

The ring, darnit.

[GammaBeast]

Originally posted by Bapman
WRONG !!!...
HULK bones are invulnarable... I'm not kidding... they're ARE.
Not even GALACTUS can smash thm.
n
HULK can heal from a complete skeleton to full body in 15 seconds.
Now combine that with the amoubt of rage that is gonna surface AFTER that.

GOKU is gonna be in a SERIOUS mess.

First off Goku's powers are far beyond Galactus. Second can you produce any proof to back-up that claim? I seem to recall the Hulk trying to pick up Thor's hammer and having it break the bones in his hand (I might be wrong).

[War Lord]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
First off Goku's powers are far beyond Galactus. Second can you produce any proof to back-up that claim? I seem to recall the Hulk trying to pick up Thor's hammer and having it break the bones in his hand (I might be wrong).

If Hulk did break his hand trying to pick up Thor's hammer, that has nothing to do with power or strength, but pureness of heart. Captain America was able to pick up Thor's hammer.

[GammaBeast]

Originally posted by jonty30
If Hulk did break his hand trying to pick up Thor's hammer, that has nothing to do with power or strength, but pureness of heart. Captain America was able to pick up Thor's hammer.


Alright, what about when the Maestro snapped the Hulk's neck?

[Krpton]

"Do you realise how dumb that sounds? That doesn't prove anything. There is no way you can prove there is spirit energy in your breath, so you can't make that assumption."

it might sound dumb, but if supes can blow someone, he can blow ki energy, because thats in their body.

there is also no proof that u have to use ki energy to send sumtin back.

u said there was know proof that ki energy is in ur breath.
but gohan stated to videal in the manga that everything in our body has got ki energy, everything that goes in our body is our ki energy and anybody can use ki energy. and gohan was teaching her how to channel it. (lemme look for the quotes.)

everyone uses ki energy without knowing it but goku , vegeta etc. just channel their ki energy.

"Also if breathing out spirit energy is what kills us then Scuba Divers should live for hundreds of years, their trained to hold their breath for several minutes at a time their entire lives."

they still breath so they will die eventually, also their is health involved and environmental and genetics are involved for their death.


LOL! but anyway superman is faster than the ki balls, so he would dodge, or he would just send it back with his hand.

[GammaBeast]

it might sound dumb, but if supes can blow someone, he can blow ki energy, because thats in their body.

there is also no proof that u have to use ki energy to send sumtin back.

u said there was know proof that ki energy is in ur breath.
but gohan stated to videal in the manga that everything in our body has got ki energy, everything that goes in our body is our ki energy and anybody can use ki energy. and gohan was teaching her how to channel it. (lemme look for the quotes.)

everyone uses ki energy without knowing it but goku , vegeta etc. just channel their ki energy.

Nope your wrong. Just because you can move something that contains energy doesn't mean you can move energy itself. You and I can both push an electrical wire containing electricity, but can we physically move the raw electricity itself? No!


they still breath so they will die eventually, also their is health involved and environmental and genetics are involved for their death.

Of course they will still eventually die. You TOTALLY missed my point. If you were right and we breath out spirit energy then Scuba Divers should live the LONGEST because they are trained to hold their breaths, they train at this all their lives. So by your logic they should live a loooong time, regardless of genetics.


LOL! but anyway superman is faster than the ki balls, so he would dodge, or he would just send it back with his hand.

Send it back with his hands? The second he touches it it would go off and kill him. And what if Goku just wipes out the solar system? Or the universe? Where would supes run?

[Krpton]

ok, when goku fire ki balls, is there friction when it is goin towards someone? course there is.

so if friction is affecting it then....of course it can be sent back.

[Krpton]

im goin sleep now, cya everone till 2morw

[GammaBeast]

How do you know where is friction with energy? No one has every really been able to follow pure energy that well. Lightning and Electricity themselves remain mysteries, and those are pathetic forms of energy compared to Goku's Ki attacks.

Friction is matter on matter, there is no matter in energy.

[Krpton]

what u saying is untrue. everything has friction including energy, lighting and electricity.

is those are pathetic compared to goku's ki energy then why did u bring that up then.

but anyway if there was no friction, then the ki blast would have been instant to hit someone.

now seriously, im goin sleep, it 2.16 am, need to revise for exams, so i might no be on the boards 2morw.

now for good im goin sleep.

...Gone.

[Jager X]

krpton,you CANNOT breath out ki.you just don't get it.if we were to breathe out our ki then we wouldn't make it to our first birthday.and what about athletes,they constantly push themselves to the point where they start to breath rapidly due to their heartrate.so,by using your theory,an athlete wouldn't live past 3 years.ki is something that must be channeled through concentration and meditation.ki comes from the spirit,so to speak.let me ask you two simple questions.
can you see someone's thoughts leak from their ears since we think with our minds?
can you see pure emotions literally shoot out from someone's heart?

[Jager X]

energy doen't have friction.only matter,something that you can physically touch and hold,has friction.lighting cannot be contained,fire cannot be contained,wind and clouds cannot be contained.krpton,you say that if there was no friction then a ki blast would instantly strike someone.now,if lighting were to strike you-would you be able to dodge it?no,because there is no friction to slow a lightning bolt down to where you can react.

[Krpton]

but atheletes are healthy.

also fire if u blow, it gets blown a little, if superman blew it, the fire would be gone. if there is a feather on a table and two people blew it from both sides of the table, the feather would be going both ways, so wind can.

yes lightning is instant, thats what i been trying to say, but a ki blast aint, i seen people in dbz dodge ki blasts. so if something is stopping it from being instant then superman can dodge it and blow it back.

but its been stated that everything that enters our body is our ki energy in the manga. its like this when u breath in, its not ki energy, but when it enters ur body its ki energy, and u breath it out ki energy comes out. so we never lost nothing, we take in then out. but goku and co. they do fireballs that drains much more than they breath in.

from what we have seen, ki energy can be dodged also, goku and co. has dodged it.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
Alright, what about when the Maestro snapped the Hulk's neck?

Maestro reminds me of a neighbour I once had. A kid got hit by a car in my neighbourhood and landed on his grass bleeding from the skull. He comes racing out and yells, "Get that kid off my grass."

I kid you not.

Back to topic.....

Isn't Maestro an intelligent hulk without the restriction of Bruce Banner?

[Bapman]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
First off Goku's powers are far beyond Galactus. Second can you produce any proof to back-up that claim? I seem to recall the Hulk trying to pick up Thor's hammer and having it break the bones in his hand (I might be wrong).

Go check out MR. X's link of HULK's amazing feats.

LASTLY... I've seen DBGT too so dont tell me GOKU LEVEL 4 SUPER SAYAN is more powerful than GALACTUS..... he isn't.
Maybe as powerful but NOT over.

[GammaBeast]

Galactus may suck the life out of individual world, but the planets themselves remain. Has he ever wiped out an entire galaxy?

[ohwattagosiam]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
Galactus may suck the life out of individual world, but the planets themselves remain. Has he ever wiped out an entire galaxy?

Galactus is the only being (I think the only one anyway) who survived death and rebirth of the entire universe. He would take Goku easily, since Goku could wipe out an enitire galaxy and Galactus would still be there. Now THAT'S durability.

[Guyverjay]

That doesn't count as an act of durability because the death of that universe is what MADE him Galactus:o

Anway I wouldn't say that SS4 goku (not the fused witgh balls one) is more powerful than Galactus. The power to destroy I'd give the edge to Goku. I know the big G is hella powerful but even he couldn't destroy the universe. But the power cosmic gives G such a range of abilties that I'd say he's more powerful in ever other aspect.

[Jager X]

Originally posted by Krpton
but atheletes are healthy.

also fire if u blow, it gets blown a little, if superman blew it, the fire would be gone. if there is a feather on a table and two people blew it from both sides of the table, the feather would be going both ways, so wind can.

yes lightning is instant, thats what i been trying to say, but a ki blast aint, i seen people in dbz dodge ki blasts. so if something is stopping it from being instant then superman can dodge it and blow it back.

but its been stated that everything that enters our body is our ki energy in the manga. its like this when u breath in, its not ki energy, but when it enters ur body its ki energy, and u breath it out ki energy comes out. so we never lost nothing, we take in then out. but goku and co. they do fireballs that drains much more than they breath in.

from what we have seen, ki energy can be dodged also, goku and co. has dodged it.

it doesn't matter if athletes are PHYSICALLY healthy.if they constantly breath out their ki,their LIFE force,at a very rapid rate then they would all be dead within 1-3 years.
so,by using your theory,everytime they exhale-they are killing themselves:rolleyes:

never did i say that you can't extinguish fire,what does that have to do with the topic.i said that,to my knowledge,only matter(something you can hold and touch)has friction-seperating it from energy which cannot be contained.

ki blasts are anything but slow.ki blasts are usually fired in the air going at incredible speeds with nothing to slow it down,not even friction.

the z fighters dodge blasts with lightning fast reflexes and speed which gives them the illusion of disappearing.most of the time, dbz characters don't even see it coming but still dodge them due to the fact that their enemies aimlessly shoot at them or vice versa (ex. vegeta vs. perfect cell)

[hulkamania85]

Dark Phoenix could take on Goku, too. Dark Phoenix could destroy planets.

[GammaBeast]

Dark Phoenix could destroy planets, but as we have said many times Goku can destroy galaxies and universes.

Originally posted by ohwattagosiam
Galactus is the only being (I think the only one anyway) who survived death and rebirth of the entire universe. He would take Goku easily, since Goku could wipe out an enitire galaxy and Galactus would still be there. Now THAT'S durability.

Guyvers right, saying Galactus is durable because he survived the big bang is like saying Bruce Banner is durable because he survived the Gamma Bomb that made him the Hulk. It's the source of who he is, so it can't be counted as an act of durability.

[Krpton]

"so,by using your theory,everytime they exhale-they are killing themselves"

this is kinda hard to explain, ok,

when u breath in its not ki, but as soon as it enetrs the body, it becomes ki, so they are breathing out what they breath in. so theya re not loosing energy, because they breath out what they breath in.

but goku uses ki balls so he looses energy, therefore gets weaker faster. he gives out more ki energy than what he is breathing in.

so when we breath out its ki energy, but when we take it in, it not.

[Krpton]

also if Z figters can didge ki balls then of course goku can.

ok if there is no friction, it should be instanious, but its not, its like u said - "going at incredible speeds.", so y isnt it instant?

anyway in my opnion, i say the ki balls are not incredibly fast bur just fast, somrtimes ki balls are slow, in eps u see ki balls take bare long to hit the subject.

[GammaBeast]

First off there are a lot more factors to speed than friction. It really depends on how much force they put behind the energy blast, and as was shown from the gravity chamber it can be affected by intense gravity (though their powers later on far exceed what was shown in the gravity chamber). It wouldn't be instantaneous. Even if you drop something in vacuum (totally empty of air or any other particles) it still takes time to fall to the ground.

If no friction meant instantaneous travel then why is it that it takes time to go anywhere in space where there is nothing to cause friction?
-----------

Your explanation of Ki in breath makes no sense whatsoever. First you say that what you breath in is what you breath out (which is not true but I'll get to that in a minute) then you say when you breath in it's not KI, but when you breath out it is?

First off when you breath in your taking in the air so your body can use the oxygen in it, when you breath out you're mostly breathing out carbon dioxide and the other gases like nitrogen that your lungs can't use.

When you breath out thats all it is, just some oxygen, nitrogen, carbon dioxide and other misc gases. There is no energy in it. If there was we should be able to set up machines in cities to gather up all the energy from everyones combined breath.

[Krpton]

"you say when you breath in it's not KI, but when you breath out it is?"

ok in the manga, its been stated that ANYTHING that enters ur body, it becomes ki energy, to make a ki blast u have to control the energy, ok.

ok, before it goes into ur body, its not ki energy, but because it goes into the body it becomes ki energy, then u breath out so u release ki energy.

but anyway like i said, if the Z warriors dodged ki balls, then superman can. To me the ki balls are not incredibly fast, its fast but not that fast, in other words it looks like its normal speed and sometime its slow.

[GammaBeast]

Care to tell me where in the manga it states that?

I don't recall hearing about that at all. By that logic if I get a splinter then the splinter is imbued with some of my spirit energy and kills me a little when it's taken out.

[Krpton]

or/and superman can just hit it back.
and superman has more power than goku, so he can send it back innit.

anyway me goin to sleep.

debate 2morw.

[GammaBeast]

Superman does not have more energy in his body than Goku.

You keep saying supes can dodge it, suppose Goku fired at the earth or something like that? Superman wouldn't let it hit, he would jump in the way and take the blast.

Or lets say Goku just wipes out the galaxy their in, where is Supes going to dodge to? Goku can just instant transmission to another Galaxy, but where is Supes going to dodge to?

[Krpton]

"Care to tell me where in the manga it states that?"

when gohan was teaching videal, let me scan my manga and post it if i can.

"By that login if I get a splinter then the splinter is imbued with some of my spirit energy and kills me a little when it's taken out."

it enetrs the splinter which is not ki energy, then it enters the body, so it becomes ki energy (because gohan said anything that enters the body, it becomes ki energy).

[Krpton]

"Superman does not have more energy in his body than Goku."

what in the blue hell makes u say that? everyone has ki energy, so how do u know how much energy goku has got and how much energy supermans got.

from what i have seen, (ive seen dbz/gt) superman has got more physical strength, more durable and sometime immortal and faster. and laso superman is smarter.
so if i had to place a bet on who has got more energy, it would be superman.

[ohwattagosiam]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
Superman does not have more energy in his body than Goku.

You keep saying supes can dodge it, suppose Goku fired at the earth or something like that? Superman wouldn't let it hit, he would jump in the way and take the blast.

Or lets say Goku just wipes out the galaxy their in, where is Supes going to dodge to? Goku can just instant transmission to another Galaxy, but where is Supes going to dodge to?

Ummm.... I don't know much about Dragon Ball (or Z or GT. Way to much boring posturing and "grrrrr" sound effects that passed for speech), but i do not think that Goku would destroy a galaxy to win a fight, since he's a good guy and all. That's like me saying that the Silver Surfer would beat Goku simply by taking all of his energy from him, thus killing him. He'd probably beat Goku with his own power. SS's manipulation of all types of energy is very very good, but i doubt he would 'suck him dry' so to speak..

[GammaBeast]

Goku possesses the energy within his body to destroy universes with enough left over to still live on. What makes you think superman has that kind of energy in his body?

Also since the Z fighters bodies are restored by rest it could be true that what enters your body becomes energy, but does it say anything about the energy leaving your body in the same way?

[Krpton]

"You keep saying supes can dodge it, suppose Goku fired at the earth or something like that? Superman wouldn't let it hit, he would jump in the way and take the blast."

firstly that doesnt proove that superman cant dodge it.
secondly goku wouldnt do that because he is pure hearted.


"Or lets say Goku just wipes out the galaxy their in, where is Supes going to dodge to? Goku can just instant transmission to another Galaxy, but where is Supes going to dodge to?"

like i said goku wont do that.
but superman can take the damage easily without even messing up his hair. or/and superman can use his superspeed.

it has also been stated that the instant transmission is the speed of light. superman is faster than the speed of light. so if goku does blow it up, superman will still be standing and goku would be destroyed.

ok me gone to sleep now.

cya 2morw.

[Krpton]

"Goku possesses the energy within his body to destroy universes with enough left over to still live on. What makes you think superman has that kind of energy in his body?"

so has superman, at one time superman could do ANYTHING that u can imagine.

"Also since the Z fighters bodies are restored by rest it could be true that what enters your body becomes energy, but does it say anything about the energy leaving your body in the same way?"

what? im gettin confused. (sorry, im bot slow)

this time im realling goin.
bye

[Krpton]

"Goku possesses the energy within his body to destroy universes with enough left over to still live on. What makes you think superman has that kind of energy in his body?"

i want prrof of that.

EDIT:
goku cant handle all of that, he would die using that much energy.
lemme get prrof of that 2morw.


...........Gone

[ohwattagosiam]

firstly that doesnt proove that superman cant dodge it.
secondly goku wouldnt do that because he is pure hearted.

Agreed.

like i said goku wont do that.
but superman can take the damage easily without even messing up his hair. or/and superman can use his superspeed.

it has also been stated that the instant transmission is the speed of light. superman is faster than the speed of light. so if goku does blow it up, superman will still be standing and goku would be destroyed.

To be fair to Gammabeast here, to take a planet destroying blast, that would have to be Pre-Crisis Supes. Today he'd be killed (or poorly written to enable a power upgrade). Also, Supes can only fly at 99% speed of light, not faster than. The Flash is faster than Supes.

Still, my Silver Surfer point still stands. What up GammaBeast?

[Krpton]

but it has been proven many time that superman has gone faster than the speed of light. with time trave, reverse time etc.


EDIT: anyway superman would still be able to withstand it like it was nothing.

last post for 2day. seriosuly.

[ohwattagosiam]

Originally posted by Krpton
but it has been proven many time that superman has gone faster than the speed of light. with time trave, reverse time etc.


Pre-crisis Supes. Not in his current state. Basically he was depowered years ago, because honestly, it was just plain stupid. He's being written stronger though. Can't wait until he sneezes and accidentally destroys a whole solar system with it, again. :rolleyes: Bleurgh! :(

[Krpton]

yeh, but thats still superman prime, so he has gone faster than the speed of light.
if supes' sneesze can do that just imagine what else.

[Krpton]

cya till 2morw, its 1.13 am.

really gone now.

[Jager X]

Originally posted by Krpton
"Superman does not have more energy in his body than Goku."

what in the blue hell makes u say that? everyone has ki energy, so how do u know how much energy goku has got and how much energy supermans got.

from what i have seen, (ive seen dbz/gt) superman has got more physical strength, more durable and sometime immortal and faster. and laso superman is smarter.
so if i had to place a bet on who has got more energy, it would be superman.

gammabeast is right,superman does NOT have a higher energy level than goku.it takes lifelong dedication and training in order to come within even a millimeter of goku's level.superman hasn't had any training whatsoever in the art of ki.it took goku troughout the whole dragonball series to get where he is now where as superman never even heard of ki,let alone having a higher level than goku.

[GammaBeast]

so has superman, at one time superman could do ANYTHING that u can imagine.

Superman does not have that much energy is his body. Your telling me that he absorbed from our sun enough energy to destroy the universe? I highly doubt that.

like i said goku wont do that.
but superman can take the damage easily without even messing up his hair. or/and superman can use his superspeed.

it has also been stated that the instant transmission is the speed of light. superman is faster than the speed of light. so if goku does blow it up, superman will still be standing and goku would be destroyed.

Goku could just use the same attack Vegita used on Majin Buu only at a lower level. The blast would exit him in all directions leaving him untouched.

Still, my Silver Surfer point still stands. What up GammaBeast?

I apologize, I must have missed it. Would you mind re-posting it?

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Jager X
gammabeast is right,superman does NOT have a higher energy level than goku.it takes lifelong dedication and training in order to come within even a millimeter of goku's level.superman hasn't had any training whatsoever in the art of ki.it took goku troughout the whole dragonball series to get where he is now where as superman never even heard of ki,let alone having a higher level than goku.

This is an example of flawed thinking.

It doesn't necessarily take a lifetime of training to master energy levels, if one by virtue of natural talent has it already. Just as there are Olympic athletes who are such because of training and others who have it because of natural talents.

I'm not saying that to illustrate why Superman can beat Goku. Though sub-DBGT, I think that Superman could give Goku a run for his money.

[Jager X]

Originally posted by jonty30
This is an example of flawed thinking.

It doesn't necessarily take a lifetime of training to master energy levels, if one by virtue of natural talent has it already. Just as there are Olympic athletes who are such because of training and others who have it because of natural talents.

I'm not saying that to illustrate why Superman can beat Goku. Though sub-DBGT, I think that Superman could give Goku a run for his money.

flawed thinking?:rolleyes:

not once did i say that it takes a lifetime to master energy levels.i said that it would take a lifetime to COME WITHIN A MILLIMETER of GOKU'S present level.speaking of natural talent,goku had natural talent for ki training as well as physical training at an adolescent age and yet it took until the end of dbgt to get his level in the billions.so,having natural talent for something doesn't mean you don't have to work for it.

[bat_in_d_hat]

natural talent does need nurturing eventhough its innate it'll never progress or else the talent will remain dormant..

let's say if supes undergoes the training that goku went through will supes succeed? maybe or maybe not..we'll never know unless it'll happen.

[ohwattagosiam]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
I apologize, I must have missed it. Would you mind re-posting it?

Oakly dokely.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by GammaBeast
Superman does not have more energy in his body than Goku.

You keep saying supes can dodge it, suppose Goku fired at the earth or something like that? Superman wouldn't let it hit, he would jump in the way and take the blast.

Or lets say Goku just wipes out the galaxy their in, where is Supes going to dodge to? Goku can just instant transmission to another Galaxy, but where is Supes going to dodge to?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ummm.... I don't know much about Dragon Ball (or Z or GT. Way to much boring posturing and "grrrrr" sound effects that passed for speech), but i do not think that Goku would destroy a galaxy to win a fight, since he's a good guy and all. That's like me saying that the Silver Surfer would beat Goku simply by taking all of his energy from him, thus killing him. He'd probably beat Goku with his own power. SS's manipulation of all types of energy is very very good, but i doubt he would 'suck him dry' so to speak..

[Kroc1138]

Never thought this thing would go the distance.

Well I posted my spiel on PreCrisis Supes, and hasn't really been refuted, nor have totally shown that PreCrisis Supes would woop SSJ 4 Goku/Gogeta. So I'll just Agree to Disagree. But I still think Goku wouldn't stand a chance.

I'll once again say Lobo would be good fight seeing as how he doesn't back down from a fight ever, and doesn't die, period.

[GammaBeast]

I still doubt even preCrisis supes could take a universe destroying blast.

[Krpton]

"Superman does not have that much energy is his body. Your telling me that he absorbed from our sun enough energy to destroy the universe? I highly doubt that."

yup thats exactly what im saying.


"Goku could just use the same attack Vegita used on Majin Buu only at a lower level. The blast would exit him in all directions leaving him untouched."

y u trying it, it would also blow up goku, when vegeit did it to buu, vegeta also died. it doesnt matter how strong or weak a self detruct move is but u still would die from doin it.

ok videal learnt how to fly very fast, and she leanr how to do a ki ball in under an episode. so what if goku has ki, anything that goku dishes out at superman, superman would just dodge it, blow it back, send it back.
u dont know how much energy superman and goku exacly have.
if u can do a ki blast dont mean u have more energy.
videla did a ki blast, so dont tell me videal has more energy than superman.

Kroc1138, y do u think goku wouldnt stand a chance?

[Krpton]

"I still doubt even preCrisis supes could take a universe destroying blast."

and y not?

[Guyverjay]

I swore that I'd never post in this retarded argument again but how on earth can you possibly think that our sun ( ONE STAR) has the energy to destroy trillions upon trillions of stars ie the universe????

How many times do peopke have to tell you that Superman cannot blow ki back and deflect it back??

Supes get HIT ALL THE TIME in the comics by people with NO martial art skill WHAT SO EVER. He has been KILLED more than once.

Do you have Brain cancer where you just can't comprehend information??

[Krpton]

"How many times do peopke have to tell you that Superman cannot blow ki back and deflect it back??"

proove that, u cant so be quite. dont post here again! u make me angry always insulting me!!!

he would dodge anyway.

ok me gone sleep now, cya everyone till 2morw apart from Guyverjay. I hate u so much!!!

[Krpton]

guyverjay, from now on can u not please talk to me!

[Guyverjay]

Like it would make a difference, you never seem to read anything anyone says anyway bwhahahahahaha:D

But you're right you couldn't possibly have brain cancer because you have no brain:up:

[Guyverjay]

Originally posted by Krpton

proove that, u cant so be quite. dont post here again! u make me angry always insulting me!!!


Prove that he can!!! Otherwise shut it

he would dodge anyway.

So according to you, Goku would not get ONE hit the entire fight?? BAKA

ok me gone sleep now, cya everyone till 2morw apart from Guyverjay. I hate u so much!!!

LOL... I pity you, a prime example of the failing education system:(

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Jager X
flawed thinking?:rolleyes:

not once did i say that it takes a lifetime to master energy levels.i said that it would take a lifetime to COME WITHIN A MILLIMETER of GOKU'S present level.speaking of natural talent,goku had natural talent for ki training as well as physical training at an adolescent age and yet it took until the end of dbgt to get his level in the billions.so,having natural talent for something doesn't mean you don't have to work for it.

Sorry I misread your post.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Guyverjay
I swore that I'd never post in this retarded argument again but how on earth can you possibly think that our sun ( ONE STAR) has the energy to destroy trillions upon trillions of stars ie the universe????

How many times do peopke have to tell you that Superman cannot blow ki back and deflect it back??

Supes get HIT ALL THE TIME in the comics by people with NO martial art skill WHAT SO EVER. He has been KILLED more than once.

Do you have Brain cancer where you just can't comprehend information??

If Superman absorbs the energy over aeons of time, then the question isn't how much power the sun as but how much power does Superman absorb.

[Guyverjay]

1. Superman is NOT aeons old

2. All that energy would STILL come from ONE star ie the SUN. A stars energy is not infinite. An entire GALAXY of stars could simultaneously blow up and that wouldn't be enough raw energy to destroy the universe which has billions maybe even trillions of galaxies

3. Supermans cells can't absorb solar energy infinitely

4. Superman Prime is not continuity

[GammaBeast]

Look at it this way. If Solar cars were 100% efficient they could still not go near as fast as gas cars. So how could supes possibly absorb that level of energy?

u trying it, it would also blow up goku, when vegeit did it to buu, vegeta also died. it doesnt matter how strong or weak a self detruct move is but u still would die from doin it.

Vegeta died because he expelled all the KI in his body, thats why he turned to stone. If the blast was what killed him he would have been disintegrated. Goku at the end of GT could easily do attacks that make that look like nothing and still have the energy to live.

ok videal learnt how to fly very fast, and she leanr how to do a ki ball in under an episode. so what if goku has ki, anything that goku dishes out at superman, superman would just dodge it, blow it back, send it back.
u dont know how much energy superman and goku exacly have.
if u can do a ki blast dont mean u have more energy.
videla did a ki blast, so dont tell me videal has more energy than superman.

First off she barely pulled it off. Second your comparing Videl to Goku? She is NOTHING compared to him. Superman has more energy than Videl, but not than Goku.

[MFM]

Why do I keep hearing people saying that Goku can destroy a universe? Besides ONLY being stated in the end of GT(I'm sure its the dubs doing, and I never really like GT anyway, since it is somewhat out of continuity...;)), he never actually display any of that feat...

[Harlekin]

I really wonder where some of you guys get this crap.

First off, Gokuu can not survive an universe destroying blast, he cannot destroy the universe with one blast (or a galaxy for that matter), especially since he can't breath in outer space, but he also doesn't have the power for it.

He is also not immortal, as it is never stated. There is only the GT anime (no manga) and it is certainly not a very reliable Dragonball source, considering its TOEI origins.

Furthermore, Buu is definitely not the strongest of the Buu's, with only Fat Buu beneath him. Mystic Gohan is far above SSJ3 Gokuu, and it is never stated how strong Gokuu is at the end of Dragonball Z.

[GammaBeast]

How can you prove to me that kid buu was the weakest? Give me some concrete proof. From the way he fought and considering the fact that he is the purest form it makes sense that he would be the strongest.

You can also logically think out his power. Vegeta could easily destroy planets with a power level around 18,000. Goku is millions of times that powerful.

Also if you think about some of the movies Brolly was able to wipe out a galaxy before going SSJ. Goku far surpasses him later on.

[Super_Child]

Originally posted by MFM
Why do I keep hearing people saying that Goku can destroy a universe? Besides ONLY being stated in the end of GT(I'm sure its the dubs doing, and I never really like GT anyway, since it is somewhat out of continuity...;)), he never actually display any of that feat...

Thats because he would NEVER DO THAT, however he is many times more powerful than characters in the show who have done similar things. So he is definetly capable.

[Harlekin]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
How can you prove to me that kid buu was the weakest? Give me some concrete proof. From the way he fought and considering the fact that he is the purest form it makes sense that he would be the strongest.

Who do you think is more powerful, me, or me with the extra power of Gohan? Even so, SSJ3 Gokuu was on par with Kid Buu, but he needed to fuse with Vegeta in order to beat Super Buu 3 (That's Super Buu + Gohan, Piccolo, Goten and Trunks). SSJ3 Gokuu (the one on par with Kid Buu) was scared of Super Buu (the regular one) and thought that he couldn't beat him. Gohan kicked the crap about Super Buu (which also proves Gohan is stronger then Gokuu).

Simply, put Gokuu needed to fuse with Vegeta to even have a fighting chance against a Buu that absorbed Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Piccolo, yet later on can take on Kid Buu? How can Kid Buu be the strongest Buu? He was the most dangerous (because he was unpredictable) and he was the most evil (because he was pure). You'll notice that Gokuu had to push the Spirit Bomb onto Kid Buu and that is why he needed that last wish for strength. Kid Buu is not capable of withstanding everyone the Spirit Bomb was made of.

So please, tell me that you are not one of the people who believe Kid Buu was the strongest just because he was the last villain of Dragonball Z.

You can also logically think out his power. Vegeta could easily destroy planets with a power level around 18,000. Goku is millions of times that powerful.

Also if you think about some of the movies Brolly was able to wipe out a galaxy before going SSJ. Goku far surpasses him later on.
The Movies don't really fit now do they? They don't fit in with the overal contuinity of Dragonball and were only made by TOEI to cash in. Gokuu can't just go and do KAMEHAMEHA and voila, universe destroyed. Buu didn't either, he went planet for planet. The range and energy put into a blast like that are basically inconcievable.

Thats because he would NEVER DO THAT, however he is many times more powerful than characters in the show who have done similar things. So he is definetly capable.
Freeza couldn't, Cell couldn't, heck Buu couldn't in one blast, and Gokuu was at best equal with Kid Buu. Gokuu can not withstand or create an universe destroying blast.

[GammaBeast]

Who do you think is more powerful, me, or me with the extra power of Gohan? Even so, SSJ3 Gokuu was on par with Kid Buu, but he needed to fuse with Vegeta in order to beat Super Buu 3 (That's Super Buu + Gohan, Piccolo, Goten and Trunks). SSJ3 Gokuu (the one on par with Kid Buu) was scared of Super Buu (the regular one) and thought that he couldn't beat him. Gohan kicked the crap about Super Buu (which also proves Gohan is stronger then Gokuu).

Simply, put Gokuu needed to fuse with Vegeta to even have a fighting chance against a Buu that absorbed Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Piccolo, yet later on can take on Kid Buu? How can Kid Buu be the strongest Buu? He was the most dangerous (because he was unpredictable) and he was the most evil (because he was pure). You'll notice that Gokuu had to push the Spirit Bomb onto Kid Buu and that is why he needed that last wish for strength. Kid Buu is not capable of withstanding everyone the Spirit Bomb was made of.

So please, tell me that you are not one of the people who believe Kid Buu was the strongest just because he was the last villain of Dragonball Z.

Did I say that was my reason for believing it? No I didn't.

Goku was afraid of Super Buu but he was also afraid of Kid Buu. He was totally shocked at his power and endurance.

I don't see how you can gauge Goku against Super Buu since they never actually fought, Goku just dodged around him. Not because he was scared, but because he already had a plan to stick to, which was to fuse with someone, anyone. When he fused with Vegeta they totally outclassed him. Something about that math doesn't add up.

Evi Buu + Fat Buu + Picollo + Goten + Trunks + Mystic Gohan < Goku + Vegeta. Obviously something is off, but back to my point.

When Goku fought Kid Buu it was revealed he had never yet gone to his absolute maximum or gone all out fighting. That was the first time he went all out and Buu was able to stand up to everything he did.

If you look at the flashbacks with bibidi, when Buu absorbed the Kai's their purity made him weaker. So it makes sense that going back to his purest form would make him his strongest.


he Movies don't really fit now do they? They don't fit in with the overal contuinity of Dragonball and were only made by TOEI to cash in. Gokuu can't just go and do KAMEHAMEHA and voila, universe destroyed. Buu didn't either, he went planet for planet. The range and energy put into a blast like that are basically inconcievable.


Freeza couldn't, Cell couldn't, heck Buu couldn't in one blast, and Gokuu was at best equal with Kid Buu. Gokuu can not withstand or create an universe destroying blast.

Buu did that because he was looking for Goku and Vegeta to fight them again. He didn't want to just kill them he wanted a fight. So he was searching planet to planet to find them.

[Harlekin]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
Goku was afraid of Super Buu but he was also afraid of Kid Buu. He was totally shocked at his power and endurance.

I don't see how you can gauge Goku against Super Buu since they never actually fought, Goku just dodged around him. Not because he was scared, but because he already had a plan to stick to, which was to fuse with someone, anyone. When he fused with Vegeta they totally outclassed him. Something about that math doesn't add up.
Gokuu didn't even do that, and don't give me the example when he tried to fuse with Gohan since it is filler.

Anyway, I would say Gokuu is a pretty good at guessing power levels, and he was afraid of Super Buu, even though Vegeta was there with him. Now if Gokuu is scared about actually dying in a fight (even with Vegeta there) with Super Buu, but he stands up to Kid Buu with a lot of confidence, it ought to tell you a few things.

If you look at the flashbacks with bibidi, when Buu absorbed the Kai's their purity made him weaker. So it makes sense that going back to his purest form would make him his strongest.
Then, pray tell why would he ever absorb anyone? The Kai made him weaker, but he definitely got stronger via Gohan, Gotenks and Piccolo, otherwise he wouldn't have absorbed them now, would he? Your argument is flawed in this department. Not to mention that Super Buu makes references to being the strongest he has ever been (which includes his pure form)

Buu did that because he was looking for Goku and Vegeta to fight them again. He didn't want to just kill them he wanted a fight. So he was searching planet to planet to find them.
I'm talking about Buu's first rampage across the universe. No one could stand up to him on any planet and he destroyed them one by one, instead of just doing an all-destroying blast.

[Guyverjay]

Buu Loves to destroy things, he takes great pleasure in doing so. Just doing on almighty universe destroying blast would be pretty stupid (and boring ) if he was capable of doing so.

Gauging power is difficult, KameSennin blew up the moon in Dragonball and his power level was pretty pathetic. Buu could have very well destroyed the universe when he was crying like a little baby in DBZ

[GammaBeast]

Gokuu didn't even do that, and don't give me the example when he tried to fuse with Gohan since it is filler.

Anyway, I would say Gokuu is a pretty good at guessing power levels, and he was afraid of Super Buu, even though Vegeta was there with him. Now if Gokuu is scared about actually dying in a fight (even with Vegeta there) with Super Buu, but he stands up to Kid Buu with a lot of confidence, it ought to tell you a few things.

I don't care if it's filler it's still there as part of the story. Goku may have been afraid of Super Buu, but he held back because he knew there was a better option. He didn't want to risk not being able to be Super Buu.

He fought kid buu because there was NO other alternative. It was either fight or let everything die.

Then, pray tell why would he ever absorb anyone? The Kai made him weaker, but he definitely got stronger via Gohan, Gotenks and Piccolo, otherwise he wouldn't have absorbed them now, would he? Your argument is flawed in this department. Not to mention that Super Buu makes references to being the strongest he has ever been (which includes his pure form)

Their could be several reasons to absorb people. One he is sadistic, he enjoys causing suffering and pain. Also he gains the knowledge of whoever he absorbs and their techniques, but their purity dilutes his evil.

I'm talking about Buu's first rampage across the universe. No one could stand up to him on any planet and he destroyed them one by one, instead of just doing an all-destroying blast.

As Guyver said he loves to destroy, he is sadistic. He wanted to destroy them one by one in person as opposed to a single distant blast to end it all.

[Guyverjay]

To be honest Goku and vegeta chose not to fuse again (if I remember correctly) so I wouldn't say they had no alternative

[Harlekin]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
I don't care if it's filler it's still there as part of the story. Goku may have been afraid of Super Buu, but he held back because he knew there was a better option. He didn't want to risk not being able to be Super Buu.

He fought kid buu because there was NO other alternative. It was either fight or let everything die.
If filler counted, Yamcha would be stronger then Vegeta.

He couldn't beat Super Buu and he knew it. And there was definitely an alternative, they could fuse again, they could have wished Gohan to the Kai world (who would have decimated Kid Buu) etc.

Their could be several reasons to absorb people. One he is sadistic, he enjoys causing suffering and pain. Also he gains the knowledge of whoever he absorbs and their techniques, but their purity dilutes his evil.

Exactly, it dilutes his evil, but it didn't dilute his power.

As Guyver said he loves to destroy, he is sadistic. He wanted to destroy them one by one in person as opposed to a single distant blast to end it all.
Okay, I'll give you that one. Still, there is no evidence that suggests Buu can destroy a universe (or Gokuu for that matter).

[GammaBeast]

Vegeta destroyed the fusion ear ring, and there was no way they could have mastered the fusion dance in that time. So I really don't see any other alternative.

Vegeta may have chosen, Goku just kinda accepted it.

[Harlekin]

They were offered another pair of fusion ear rings actually.

[Imperfection]

Originally posted by Harlekin
They were offered another pair of fusion ear rings actually. Which they both turned down.

[Harlekin]

Originally posted by Imperfection
Which they both turned down.
Your point being? They had an alternative, they just didn't take it.

[GammaBeast]

What episode were they offered new fusion earrings in? I've watched a few of the Buu battles again and I haven't seen that.

Though when Goku was fighting Kid Buu he was talking to himself "wheres your weak point? you're twice as strong as you were before. Your speed, your power". This indicates he is definetly not the weakest Buu.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
What episode were they offered new fusion earrings in? I've watched a few of the Buu battles again and I haven't seen that.

Though when Goku was fighting Kid Buu he was talking to himself "wheres your weak point? you're twice as strong as you were before. Your speed, your power". This indicates he is definetly not the weakest Buu.

Kid Buu is the strongest Buu. The fat Buu is the Buu with one of the Kai's absorbed. The Kai provided the fat buu compassion and mercy that Buu lacked naturally.

[GammaBeast]

That's what I'm trying to prove, that he was the strongest Buu. Think about it, the Kais, Goku and Vegeta all saw Super Buu's power, yet they were all totally shocked at how incredibly strong Kid Buu was.

[Harlekin]

Okay, lets just use some simple logic here. Gohan was stronger then Gotenks. Gotenks was stronger then Gokuu. You all agree on this?

Super Buu 2 kicked the crap out of Gohan. Gokuu was equal to Kid Buu. Super Buu 2>Gohan and Gokuu=Kid Buu, okay? Gohan>Gokuu. Super Buu 2>Gohan>Gokuu=Kid Buu. See the math.

Which leads to:
Vegetto>Super Buu 3>Super Buu 2>Gohan>Super Buu=Gotenks>Gokuu=Kid Buu>Fat Buu. So he isn't the weakest but he isn't the strongest either.

[Guyverjay]

I don't agree that Gotenks was stronger than Goku

[GammaBeast]

That logic makes no sense

If Gohan > Goku/Vegeta and Gotenks > Goku/Vegeta and Super Buu >Goku

How can Vegetto (Goku+Vegeta) >Super Buu 3 (Super Buu + Goten + Trunks + Mystic Gohan + Piccolo)?

Gotenks was not Stronger than Goku, and until the Kid Buu battle Goku never went all out (and he didn't even get a chance to display his full power in that fight) so how can any prior comparison be accurate?

[Harlekin]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
That logic makes no sense

If Gohan > Goku/Vegeta and Gotenks > Goku/Vegeta and Super Buu >Goku

How can Vegetto (Goku+Vegeta) >Super Buu 3 (Super Buu + Goten + Trunks + Mystic Gohan + Piccolo)?

Look, if Kid Buu is the strongest, why did Gokuu ever fuse with Vegeta in order to beat Super Buu 3? If Kid Buu>Super Buu 3, why ever fuse?

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Harlekin
Look, if Kid Buu is the strongest, why did Gokuu ever fuse with Vegeta in order to beat Super Buu 3? If Kid Buu>Super Buu 3, why ever fuse?

1. The Supreme Kai said he was the strongest most terrible Buu.

2. After Vegeta broke the earring, Goku and him agreed that if they were going to beat Buu, the only honourable way was to do it alone. The fact that Goku was willing to tackle Kid Buu alone does not mean that Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu.

[GammaBeast]

Originally posted by Harlekin
Look, if Kid Buu is the strongest, why did Gokuu ever fuse with Vegeta in order to beat Super Buu 3? If Kid Buu>Super Buu 3, why ever fuse?

Goku and Vegeta thought it over and as Saiyans they wanted to fight alone. Remember Saiyans love to fight, especially if their opponent is stronger than they are. Goku considered fusing again, but decided against it because he wanted to fight with his own power win or lose.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
Goku and Vegeta thought it over and as Saiyans they wanted to fight alone. Remember Saiyans love to fight, especially if their opponent is stronger than they are. Goku considered fusing again, but decided against it because he wanted to fight with his own power win or lose.

Just like I said.

[GammaBeast]

I know, I just wanted to re-enforce the point.

[Harlekin]

Originally posted by jonty30
1. The Supreme Kai said he was the strongest most terrible Buu.

2. After Vegeta broke the earring, Goku and him agreed that if they were going to beat Buu, the only honourable way was to do it alone. The fact that Goku was willing to tackle Kid Buu alone does not mean that Kid Buu was weaker than Super Buu.
1. That's the dub.

2. Weird way of doing that by using other people's energy. Still there is no logic, where was that honor against Super Buu 3, especially considering Super Buu 3 is weaker than Kid Buu, right? He was about equal with Kid Buu but was scared of Super Buu. Heck, he was confident in beating Kid Buu.

[GammaBeast]

Originally posted by Harlekin
1. That's the dub.

2. Weird way of doing that by using other people's energy. Still there is no logic, where was that honor against Super Buu 3, especially considering Super Buu 3 is weaker than Kid Buu, right? He was about equal with Kid Buu but was scared of Super Buu. Heck, he was confident in beating Kid Buu.

Confident? What makes you think he was confident? Throughout the whole fight all anybody did was stand in awe of Kid Buu's power. Goku stood against him because this was basically the end, it was win now or everyone dies. Super Buu 3 was intelligent and would have systematically wiped out planets, but probably would have sought out challenges due to the Saiyan components of his being.

Kid Buu never tired and if let free would have gone on a non-stop rampage killing anything and everything in his path.

When they fought Super Buu 3 and fused they had never fused before, so it was a new experience. When they fougth Kid Buu they knew what it would be like and decided against it from their experience before. They preferred to fight alone.

As for the spirit Bomb, the main reason they did that is because Goku was totally wiped out, he didn't have the energy to win on his own anymore, so he used his last resort the Spirit Bomb (which is always his backup plan). That was done out of shear necessity so I don't see how that proves anything.

[Harlekin]

The Spirit Bomb proves nothing, just threw that in there. Gokuu knew the effects of fusion and the power they would gain. Gokuu obviously thought it was nessecary in order to beat Super Buu 3, because he was willing to let himself get fused with Vegeta forever in order to beat him. He wouldn't do that if he could fight him on his own. He couldn't, he knew it, they fused. Gokuu figured his odd were a lot better against Kid Buu, and they were so he fought him.

As for the confident thing, him and Vegeta were actually making fun of him, not to mention he was pretty confident when he decided to take him on alone.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by Harlekin
The Spirit Bomb proves nothing, just threw that in there. Gokuu knew the effects of fusion and the power they would gain. Gokuu obviously thought it was nessecary in order to beat Super Buu 3, because he was willing to let himself get fused with Vegeta forever in order to beat him. He wouldn't do that if he could fight him on his own. He couldn't, he knew it, they fused. Gokuu figured his odd were a lot better against Kid Buu, and they were so he fought him.

As for the confident thing, him and Vegeta were actually making fun of him, not to mention he was pretty confident when he decided to take him on alone.

Fighting alone doesn't necessarily mean confidence, it's just how Saiyans do things. Lots of times throughout DBZ, Goku and Vegeta fought stronger powers than themselves by themselves.

1. Frieza.
2. Perfect Cell
3. Buus

Any time, if it wasn't the Saiyin's nature to fight battles alone, they could have called for assistance.

[Guyverjay]

It is true. Remember Bulmas suggestion when trunks came from the future to warn them about the andriods?

Bulma suggested they use the dragonballs and ask the dragon to tell them the whereabouts of Dr Geros lab so they could destroy it before the artificial humans are completed. But Vegeta and Goku want to fight them and disregard bulmas plan.

[War Lord]

I'm glad I've learned something from watching the show about 4 times in completion. This time, I swear to kick the show gor good.

[Krpton]

ok we all agree manga>anime right, because manga is fact, and the anime is based on it, so if anything, manga fact>anime, agree?

kid buu wasnt the weakest nor he was the strongest.

the order f buus are:

mystic buu
gotenks buu
piccolo buu
buff buu
super buu
kid buu
evil buu
fat buu
mr buu

let me explain, this is because kid buu is the orginal form, he absorbed a kai (the big one with muscles), this made him transform into buff buu (buu has lots of muscles), so this means that buff buu>kid buu, agree?

now buff buu absorbs the big fat kai, this made buff buu turn into fat buu, but instead of buus power growing, it decreased, this is because the big fat kai was a good influence.

so if that means buff buu>kid buu, then super buu>buff buu, agree?

do u remember when goku and vegeta came out of buu, buu changed and goku vegeta said he is transforming and is getting stronger, but then hewent weaker and goku and vegeta said , amdit u were scared too.

think about if, when ss3 goku was fighting gotenks buu, goku needed to fuse with gohan to to beat gotenks buu, but the gotenks fusion wore off, and then piccolos cape was on super buu, and then goku said, gohan we dont need to fuse anymore beacuse u can beat him, nte that he meant gohan not himslef, we all agree mustic gohan>ssj3 goku, right?

alos goku called gohan the greatest warrior he has ever seen with such power, which is meaning that gohan is the strongest.

another thing to think about is if gohan was whopping super buu easily, then how come goku and vegeta in buus body after they took out gotenks, piccolo, and gohan, still could not beat super buu.

so at the end this was the order:

super vigeto
mystic buu
gotenks buu
mystic gohan
piccolo buu
buff buu
super buu
kid buu
ssj3 goku
evil buu
fat buu
ssj2 vegeta
mr buu

[Kroc1138]

Nope Kid Buu is the most powerful, for one he knew instant Transmition(sp). Second It seems that his power levels are based on how evil he is. When He absorbed the Kais they weakend him. Thrird thease on how he destroyed planets is another factor.

The only problem is that SSJ 3 Goku and Vegeta were owned by Super Buu 3, but SSJ Goku was able to match Kid Buu (barely). That can easily be explained away I guess.

[Harlekin]

Originally posted by Kroc1138
Nope Kid Buu is the most powerful, for one he knew instant Transmition(sp). Second It seems that his power levels are based on how evil he is. When He absorbed the Kais they weakend him. Thrird thease on how he destroyed planets is another factor.

The only problem is that SSJ 3 Goku and Vegeta were owned by Super Buu 3, but SSJ Goku was able to match Kid Buu (barely). That can easily be explained away I guess.
Man, that really is the biggest load of croc I ever heard. Instant Transmission does not make you the most powerful. His power levels were certainly not based on his evil, because he would have been severely weakened by absorbing Piccolo, Gotenks and Gohan. Frieza also destroyed a planet, so that can hardly be used as an argument.

And I do hope you mean SSJ3 Gokuu equaled Kid Buu.

[Superbot400]

Goku could have finish off Kid Buu but he waste so much time giving Vegeta a chance to fight. Goku say it himselfI watch tape episode too. Gotenks never when at light speed he when around the world 9 time in 30 mintue that why Gotenk when back too normal. Cooler and Cell are the only ones who knew the insant tranmission no one else does.Vegeta say Kid was getting stronger and faster. You have never seen Toonami lately.

[Krpton]

^^^ like i siad, they are dub lines and are mistakes.

manga >>>>>>>>>>anime

[Krpton]

but in the anime, goku and vegeta in buu's body couldnt beat super buu.

while mystic gohan whopped super buu easily.

[Kroc1138]

Originally posted by Harlekin
Man, that really is the biggest load of croc I ever heard. Instant Transmission does not make you the most powerful. His power levels were certainly not based on his evil, because he would have been severely weakened by absorbing Piccolo, Gotenks and Gohan. Frieza also destroyed a planet, so that can hardly be used as an argument.

And I do hope you mean SSJ3 Gokuu equaled Kid Buu. I didn't mean that!! DUHHH!!!:rolleyes: I meant that it must be remarkable that Kid Buu learned it so quick. As for destroying Planets, It took Kid Buu a very short period of time to build up power that could destroy Earth ten times over, then proceeded to destroy all planets in a solar system. As for Buu's powers being based on how eveil he is that was a theory, that you really haven't disproved at all. Since Kid Buu was in fact the most powerful version of Buu.


And Yes I meant SSJ 3 Goku.

[Odin's Lapdog]

700 posts on, and the saga continues....

[Harlekin]

Originally posted by Kroc1138
I didn't mean that!! DUHHH!!!:rolleyes: I meant that it must be remarkable that Kid Buu learned it so quick. As for destroying Planets, It took Kid Buu a very short period of time to build up power that could destroy Earth ten times over, then proceeded to destroy all planets in a solar system. As for Buu's powers being based on how eveil he is that was a theory, that you really haven't disproved at all. Since Kid Buu was in fact the most powerful version of Buu.


And Yes I meant SSJ 3 Goku.
What's so remarkable. It's just a skill he has to imitate moves, Fat Buu could do it too. And do we remember Frieza destroying Planet Vegeta easily, with this humongous energy ball?

How can Buu's powers possibly be based on evil. Let's go over this for a minute. Gohan kicked the crap out of Super Buu, then got smacked around when Buu absorbed Gotenks and Piccolo, so he obviously got stronger through absorping them. Gokuu was desperate to fuse with someone (he even contemplated Mr. Satan), because he knew Super Buu's power was way too much for him. However, he does take on Kid Buu, who he equals.

It doesn't add up. You'd get something like this:
SSJ3 Gokuu=Kid Buu>Vegetto>Super Buu 3>Super Buu 2>Gohan>Super Buu>SSJ3 Gokuu.

By saying Kid Buu is the strongest, you automatically imply that Gokuu is stronger then Vegetto.

[Guyverjay]

Oaky I've finally seen uncut Japanese episodes where Kid Buu fights and in the Japanese dialogue . Kiaoshin sama states that Kid Buu in his orginal form is its his most powerful.
Goku says that he's on a whole other level compared to the other buu's. Whether it makes sense to you guys or not. Thats is what is said.


The reason Why Goku and Vegeta don't want fuse anymore is because they are sayans and want to fight alone.

[Guyverjay]

Well I know that Gokus physical strength is always brought into question because On dragonball strength isn't the most important thing in a fight .

But I thought this could prove that Goku is pretty strong
http://img15.photobucket.com/albums/v44/guyverjay/Goku_mountain.gif

[Harlekin]

Originally posted by Guyverjay
Oaky I've finally seen uncut Japanese episodes where Kid Buu fights and in the Japanese dialogue . Kiaoshin sama states that Kid Buu in his orginal form is its his most powerful.

What he says is that Kid Buu is the most dangerous (because of his pure evil status and thus unpredictability), which was shown in Kid Buu just destroying the earth, instead of settling for a fight.

[Guyverjay]

Look I know what he said.

MOST POWERFUL

Regardless of whether makes sense or not , THAT is what is said in both the dub and the Japanese version ( I can't comment on the manga)

Deal with it

[Gimili]

I haven't seen the Jap version, but I can say that in the dub, he says, "worst," not "most powerful."

[Guyverjay]

Wrong

He says and I quote (in the dub)

"He's gone back to his original form, he's more powerful then ever"

This is said in the episode: True sayans fight alone

[Gimili]

I haven't seen the Kid Buu episodes in a while, so I'll have to take
your word for it.

But does it not seem possible that Kiaoshin was wrong? He thought that Gohan was supposed to use the Z Sword as a weapon in order to beat Majin Buu, and he was wrong then.

[Guyverjay]

Yeah but the legend of the Z sword was dubious at best.

BUT Kiaoshin was THERE when Kid Buu began his rampage. HE FOUGHT HIM. I doubt he was wrong

[Odin's Lapdog]

Wasn't kid buu created just for the anime, and isn't in the manga txt?

i heard that somewhere....

so this power level thing may all be due to trying to mil a saga for longer than it should last for by creating another incarnatiion?

[Guyverjay]

Nah Kid Buu was there in the manga

Daizenshyu #2 says that everyone was weaker than Kid Buu

It also says when describing Mystic Gohans awesome something along the lines of "He's even more powerful than SSJ3 gotenks"

Goku isn't mentioned though.


So its still up in the air for me

[Gimili]

Originally posted by Guyverjay
Yeah but the legend of the Z sword was dubious at best.

BUT Kiaoshin was THERE when Kid Buu began his rampage. HE FOUGHT HIM. I doubt he was wrong

I don't see how the legend of the Z Sword was "dubious." For a while, Gohan became the most powerful being in the universe, as
the legend said would happen.

Kiaoshin was wrong about what the Z Sword's legend meant. He was also surprised by both how undignified his ancester was and how powerful Vegetto turned out to be. That proves how fallible he was.

Plus, Goku said that he and Vegeta would have been no match for
Super Buu, even with Piccolo and the Saiyan hibreds removed. However, he implied that he might stand a chance against Kid Buu, with or without Vegeta.

[GammaBeast]

Hey Guyver in the uncut version did Goku say anything like he said in the english version? Which is that he could probably have taken kid buu if he went all out at SS3 from the start?

My main problem with comparing Goku to anyone is that he never once went all out in the Buu saga. His true full power was never shown.

[Guyverjay]

Originally posted by Gimili
I don't see how the legend of the Z Sword was "dubious." For a while, Gohan became the most powerful being in the universe, as
the legend said would happen.

Kiaoshin was wrong about what the Z Sword's legend meant. He was also surprised by both how undignified his ancester was and how powerful Vegetto turned out to be. That proves how fallible he was.

Plus, Goku said that he and Vegeta would have been no match for
Super Buu, even with Piccolo and the Saiyan hibreds removed. However,he implied that he might stand a chance against Kid Buu, with or without Vegeta.

It was dubious because he wasn't going on personal experience but on what the legend says. He's never seen the Z sword in action so how is he supposed to know for sure?? The others kais are DEAD remember. Its not like they are there to guide him. He became Grand kaioshin by DEFAULT not because he was all knowing and ready for the role. As for his ancestor So the hell what? He never MET THE GUY. So how the hell is he suppose to know what he's like? Its not like the other kais are going to be proud of the fact thats he a pervert and pass that knowledge down from kai to kai is like its really important. Do YOU know what your great x50 grandfather was like personality wise?

We are talking about Power levels here not legends and pervy ancestors. I'm pretty sure that he can sense the difference Since he can sense ki like everyone else and was the ONLY one there that had actually FOUGHT Kid BUU. So who is more likely to know?
The fact that he damn near ****s his pants when Kid Buu emerges speaks volumes.


I'm not going to get into that last part about what Goku and vegeta say about super buu because I haven't seen the Japanese eps of that yet.

[Guyverjay]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
Hey Guyver in the uncut version did Goku say anything like he said in the english version? Which is that he could probably have taken kid buu if he went all out at SS3 from the start?

My main problem with comparing Goku to anyone is that he never once went all out in the Buu saga. His true full power was never shown.

What is said is that Goku CAN generate enough power in SSJ3 form to destroy Kid Buu but he was trying to look cool infront of vegeta. He didn't think the fight would go as badly as it did. So when he did decide to try and finish it he isn't give enough time by Buu to gather the power he needs. Which is why he needs Vegeta to distract Buu for 1 minute. One thing that can be said is that SSJ2 Goku is LEAGUES in front of SSJ2 Vegeta. Goku was able to spar with Kid Buu in that form for a while. Vegeta got completely destroyed


Also when Buu is transforming into Kid Buu goku and vegeta comment that his Ki is actually rising and NOT decreasing

[GammaBeast]

So does that mean that at his absolute peak SS3 Goku would be above Mystic Gohan?

[Guyverjay]

Dunno to be honest. There are arguments for both sides.

One of the reasons Goku gets in trouble is because it was the first time he went SSJ3 in a living body, he hadn't trained in that form while he was alive. So he ran out of energy too quickly. Thinjk about Goku hadn't yet perfected the SSJ3 form. Even if two people are at the same SSJ stage their power levels can still be every different. GOKU SSJ2 and Vegeta SSJ2 for example.

I personally think that SSJ3 Goku can generate more raw ki than Gohan but doesn't have the stamina that Mystic has. Thats just an opinion though.

If you want to include the movie 13 (which could be considered canon depending on who you talk to because thats where Trunks gets his sword) SSJ3 goku was the only one who was able to beat Hildergarn in his SSJ3 form. Mystic gohan got beaten up like everyone else.

[GammaBeast]

Actually your opinion fits with mine pretty well. I think Goku is able to generate more actual power, but mystic gohan could maintain that level for longer.

Personally I would include movie 13 in the continuity since like a few of the movies it does deal with actual events from the story we know happened, such as the bardock special.

[Harlekin]

Okay, first off, Movie 13 is out of contuinity. No matter how you bend it, its not a part of it.

Akira himself has stated that Gohan is the strongest unfused character in Dragonball. SSJ2 Gokuu and SSJ2 Vegeta were equal, as stated in their fight.

SSJ3 Gokuu can't be stronger then Gohan. He was afraid of Super Buu (while still dead, and he's stronger when he's dead), while Gohan completely whooped Super Buu. The reason Gokuu reverted to base was not because he hadn't perfected the form, but because his body couldn't handle the same amounts of energy his dead body could.

Also, Kaioshin sucks at power levels. He believed Gohan the strongest of the three saiyans, was afraid Vegeta couldn't handle Pui Pui etc.

Daizenshuu's are also BTW not considered canon material. Also, at least in the manga, it says Kid Buu is the worst, not the most powerful.

[Guyverjay]

Originally posted by Harlekin
Okay, first off, Movie 13 is out of contuinity. No matter how you bend it, its not a part of it.


That is true but like I said it depend on who you talk to, technically you could say the bardock special was out of continuity because torayama didn't actually write it also

Akira himself has stated that Gohan is the strongest unfused character in Dragonball. SSJ2 Gokuu and SSJ2 Vegeta were equal, as stated in their fight.

Prove it. I'm sick of this torayama said this torayama said that bullcrap without a shred to back it up (admitted I've been guilty of this myself on occasion). I've also heard that torayama said Kryllin was the most powerful human yet most people seem to say tien was. As for them being equal. Are you nuts? Goku was holding back and vegeta was Majin so was more powerful than normal. In the final fight with Kidd Buu. Vegetas SSJ2 (even while dead) was compleely overwhelmed by BUU. Goku in SSJ2 was able to spar with him.

SSJ3 Gokuu can't be stronger then Gohan. He was afraid of Super Buu (while still dead, and he's stronger when he's dead), while Gohan completely whooped Super Buu. The reason Gokuu reverted to base was not because he hadn't perfected the form, but because his body couldn't handle the same amounts of energy his dead body could.

Goku wasn't AFRAID of super Buu. Since when is Goku afraid of anything? Its out of character and you know it. Goku would have fought alone if he had to. Of course he would have got whupped but he would have fought. I still say IMO that SSJ3 Goku could out put more raw ki than Mystic but Mystic has the stamina (after all it IS stated that Goku had the power to destroy Kid Buu). Goku definately has the edge in Skill as well. That being said I think Gohan woud win the fight if he fought SSJ3 Goku while he was in a living body. Of course if their fight was in the other realm while Goku was still dead, I say Goku would waste mystic Gohan.

Also, Kaioshin sucks at power levels. He believed Gohan the strongest of the three saiyans, was afraid Vegeta couldn't handle Pui Pui etc.

Thats because he hadn't actually SEEN vegetas power. You do know that to sense a power level. It does actually have to be raised. He didn't know the sayans were capable of that much power until he saw it himself. Thats like saying Goku, Vegeta, Krylln,Gohan and Piccollo suck at sensing power levels because they didn't know Frieza wasn't fighting at his maximum. Kaioshin KNOWS what Kid Buu is capable because he saw it first hand as it killed the other kais in battle. You're only trying to rubbish Kaioshin because what he says conflicts with your opinion. Sorry but it just doesn't work that way.

Daizenshuu's are also BTW not considered canon material. Also, at least in the manga, it says Kid Buu is the worst, not the most powerful.

Daizenshuu's are OFFICIAL. and show me one page where it states he's the worst. I haven't read the manga. At least I admit it to that unlike other people who just pretend they have:o

Lets face it gauging power levels without offiical numbers is difficult. Example VEGETTO.

Now Obvioiusly the potarra fusion is more powerful than the dance but even I wouldn't have imagined Vegetto being able to casually man handle Super Buu (with mystic Gohan, piccollo , trunks and Goten) without even needing to go SSJ!!

You'd think that Majin Buu, plus mystic Gohan, piccollo , trunks and Goten would be stronger than a pottara fused Goku and Vegeta in their normal state. Or at the worst on par with one another. This another reason why I think the gap between Goku and gohans power isn't as great as some people make it out to be.

[Harlekin]

Vegetto never fought Buu in base form, he went straight to SSJ2. Yes, Gokuu was holding back on SSJ3, but while he was SSJ2, he was equal to Vegeta, its stated. And yes, Bardock Special is also out of contuinity. If you come across a person who says that the movies are in contuinity, they are simply dumb.

Krillin is actually the strongest human. Its stated in both manga and anime. BTW, you just said it yourself, Gokuu would get whooped by Super Buu, while Gohan easily took care of him. Mystic Gohan is leagues above SSJ3 Gokuu.

Daizenshuu's are not official, plain and simple. I'll give you the Kaioshin part about sensing power levels. I shouldn't have to give you a page (especially since I can't), because you said it yourself! Gokuu gets whooped by Super Buu, and he is equal to Kid Buu.

Also, there is indeed no gauge for fusion, considering that Goten and Trunks could not only go SSJ3 as Gotenks, but also be stronger then Super Buu.

God, when is the logic finally going to get through to you. If you say Kid Buu>Other Buu's it means that Gokuu>Vegetto, which is not friggin' possible!

[Guyverjay]

Originally posted by Harlekin
[Vegetto never fought Buu in base form, he went straight to SSJ2. Yes, Gokuu was holding back on SSJ3, but while he was SSJ2, he was equal to Vegeta, its stated. And yes, Bardock Special is also out of contuinity. If you come across a person who says that the movies are in contuinity, they are simply dumb.

Do you keep your eyes closed while watching Dragonball?? Vegetto was kicking the crap out of Super BUU in his base form (don't you remember the gazillon punches he gave him?), he changed into SSJ2 afterwards. Also WE KNOW that at least part of the events of the Bardock special ACTUALLY happened so you can't disresgard it completely. BTW Majin Vegeta is not the same as Vegeta. But if you want to disregard the entire end to the kid Buu where its shows so obviously that SSJ2 Vegeta and SSJ2 Goku are not on the same level be my guest.

Krillin is actually the strongest human. Its stated in both manga and anime. BTW, you just said it yourself, Gokuu would get whooped by Super Buu, while Gohan easily took care of him. Mystic Gohan is leagues above SSJ3 Gokuu.

I meant he'd get whooped by the Super Buu that had Mystc Gohan inside him not the one Gohan fought. Once Buu absorbed Gotenks Gohan was getting his ass kicked. Where is it stated that Krllyn is the strongest? You mean what Yamcha says at the tournament? I actually do think Kryllyn is the strongest but on feats and history Tien has been superior

Daizenshuu's are not official, plain and simple. I'll give you the Kaioshin part about sensing power levels. I shouldn't have to give you a page (especially since I can't), because you said it yourself! Gokuu gets whooped by Super Buu, and he is equal to Kid Buu.

Daizenshuu's are Official. They are as official as the world guide and No I didn't say Goku is equal with Kid Buu because he NOT. Kid Buu coud have destroyed Goku at anytime. Anybody wirth half a brain could see Goku wasn't equal with Kid BUU

Also, there is indeed no gauge for fusion, considering that Goten and Trunks could not only go SSJ3 as Gotenks, but also be stronger then Super Buu.

They weren't stronger than Super Buu imo. Gotenks and normal ol Majin Buu looked about equal to be honest. Sure Gotenks scored with a couple of good attacks but neither one seemes to get the upper hand in the end (while in the room of time and space.).

God, when is the logic finally going to get through to you. If you say Kid Buu>Other Buu's it means that Gokuu>Vegetto, which is not friggin' possible!

How does it? Vegetto manhandles Super Buu even in his base form and its stated that Vegetto would also mop the floor with Kid Buu in the anime. Unlike Goku who got beaten up by a Kid Buu who wasn't even trying. Goku states that Kid Buu is just letting the fight drag out on purpose because he is enjoying himself (this is said while Buu is doing his silly little dance) Your Logic makes no sense



Look I don't want to argue anymore because as I said there are arguments for both sides.

[Harlekin]

Vegetto fighting Buu in base was filler. And yes, what Yamcha said can be interpretated as Toriyama using him to say Krillin is the strongest. Even when comparing feats and history is Krillin stronger.

Look, Buu himself states that when he absorbed Gohan he was at his strongest he had ever been. What more do you need?

[Guyverjay]

Filler eh? It wouldn't surprise me to be honest. It always seemed ridiculous how easily he manhandles Super Buu while in his base form.

Heres a question, have you actually read the manga??

Yamcha saying something doesn't make it the truth. Lets face it, its YAMCHA. The guy who thought he could train in 400G gravity:o
Also it could be said that he was just humouring kryllins little girl. Plus When was the last time Yamcha had actually seen Tien at that point?? So how the hell would he know?

Besides now thats I think about it Ubuu was the strongest Human in DBZ

As for saying Krylln is stronger when comparing history, you're really talking out of your crack there. Tiens power level was consistantly greater than Krllyns up till the point of mirai Trunks arrival.


As for what Buu said I have yet to see the japanese eps of that yet so I can't comment. Besides what you forget is that each Buu actually has a completely different personality. They are essentially different people. Which is why BUU is scared when Vegeta threatens to unplug Fat buu proclaiming "I won't be ME anymore" . It couldn't be because he was scared of getting weaker because both vegeta and Goku comment that his Ki actually rises when he transformed. So that version of Buu could very well be telling the truth as to pertaining to himself (if that dialogue isn't just part of the dub).

Look I'm not categorically saying this Buu is stronger than that buu. I'm just saying that there is proof for both sides (in the anime)

The only way to easilly prove it is to actually read the unedited original manga and the interviews that AT has done in shonen jump (I've read a few of them). Its all in there.

[Krpton]

ok, i have read the manga, so i know my dbz stuff.

1. veggeto fought super buu 3 at ssj2 level.

2. it was stated that kid buu was the worst and dangerous form of buu, not the strongest.

3. it was stated that ssj3 goku could not beat super buu 1.5. (with only piccolo absorbed)

also when super buu 2 (with piccolo and gotenks) was fighting goku while m. gohan was looking for the pottara earing. the fusion between goten and trunks wore off, so super buu was more piccolo. then goku said to gohan "u dont need the earing anymore more because"......now he speaks to super buu "....because GOHAN can defeat u now.

4. when gohan turned mystic, goku said to gohan "u r the most powerfulest warrior i have eveer seen", this means that M Gohan is stronger than himslef.

5. ssj3 gotenks had super buu 1 easily beat, but then the fusion wore off. - i am referring to the manga.

6. even the supreme kai, who has felt buu's power thought m. gohan would easily beat super buu1.

7.when goku fought kid buu and said "he is twice as strong as before", btw before he said that gou was talking about how he could have beaten fat buu at ssj3 when he last fought him, so he was comparing kid buu to fat buu not super buu. - i am reffering to the anime.

8. when goku and vegeta was in buu's body, goku still wanted to fuse and vegeta didnt, its not because of goku's saiyan pride, cuz he still wanted to fuse, he never becsue of vegeta.
plus goku imo has not got true saiyan pride, cuz saiyans never give up and they always fight alone. but goku gave up against cell, and goku even wated to fuse with satan at one point.

7. when goku + vegeta came out of super buu's body with gohan, piccolo, goten and trunks. super buu started transforming. sueper buu was transforming and started to look very bif and have lots of muscles, at this point goku + vegeta said that his power is increasing. then after it lowered and his muscles went away and turned into kid buu, and goku + vegeta say "admit it vegeta, even u got scared", well sumtin along those lines. so super buu got stronger, when he went muscley, this form of buu is called Buff Buu, then went weaker, and then went weaker than kid buu. - i am reffering to the anime.

so y is it that goku couldnt beat super buu 1.5, and gohan easily did?

so y is it that goku called m. gohan the stronest warrior?

so y is i that goku was so desprete that it entered his mind to fuse with hercule when fight super buu?

y is it that goky AND vegeta couldnt not beat normal super buu inside his body?

y is it that goke + vegeta was relieved that buus power decreaesd after it increased when they came out of buu's body?

y is it that supreme kai also thought gohan was the strongest?



there are more to state, but ill prob do that 2morw. and laso more questions.

[GammaBeast]

Originally posted by Krpton
ok, i have read the manga, so i know my dbz stuff.

1. veggeto fought super buu 3 at ssj2 level.

2. it was stated that kid buu was the worst and dangerous form of buu, not the strongest.

3. it was stated that ssj3 goku could not beat super buu 1.5. (with only piccolo absorbed)

also when super buu 2 (with piccolo and gotenks) was fighting goku while m. gohan was looking for the pottara earing. the fusion between goten and trunks wore off, so super buu was more piccolo. then goku said to gohan "u dont need the earing anymore more because"......now he speaks to super buu "....because GOHAN can defeat u now.

4. when gohan turned mystic, goku said to gohan "u r the most powerfulest warrior i have eveer seen", this means that M Gohan is stronger than himslef.

5. ssj3 gotenks had super buu 1 easily beat, but then the fusion wore off. - i am referring to the manga.

6. even the supreme kai, who has felt buu's power thought m. gohan would easily beat super buu1.

7.when goku fought kid buu and said "he is twice as strong as before", btw before he said that gou was talking about how he could have beaten fat buu at ssj3 when he last fought him, so he was comparing kid buu to fat buu not super buu. - i am reffering to the anime.

8. when goku and vegeta was in buu's body, goku still wanted to fuse and vegeta didnt, its not because of goku's saiyan pride, cuz he still wanted to fuse, he never becsue of vegeta.
plus goku imo has not got true saiyan pride, cuz saiyans never give up and they always fight alone. but goku gave up against cell, and goku even wated to fuse with satan at one point.

7. when goku + vegeta came out of super buu's body with gohan, piccolo, goten and trunks. super buu started transforming. sueper buu was transforming and started to look very bif and have lots of muscles, at this point goku + vegeta said that his power is increasing. then after it lowered and his muscles went away and turned into kid buu, and goku + vegeta say "admit it vegeta, even u got scared", well sumtin along those lines. so super buu got stronger, when he went muscley, this form of buu is called Buff Buu, then went weaker, and then went weaker than kid buu. - i am reffering to the anime.

so y is it that goku couldnt beat super buu 1.5, and gohan easily did?

so y is it that goku called m. gohan the stronest warrior?

so y is i that goku was so desprete that it entered his mind to fuse with hercule when fight super buu?

y is it that goky AND vegeta couldnt not beat normal super buu inside his body?

y is it that goke + vegeta was relieved that buus power decreaesd after it increased when they came out of buu's body?

y is it that supreme kai also thought gohan was the strongest?



there are more to state, but ill prob do that 2morw. and laso more questions.

Could you actually post a scan verifying any of what you've said?

The only thing I'll address right now is your comment about Goku quitting against Cell. He didn't quit, he only fought so Gohan could see Cell's moves. Goku wanted Gohan to be the one to save the world. As he said in the buu saga, he watned his boys to try their hands at saving the world because he wouldn't be around forever.

[War Lord]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
Could you actually post a scan verifying any of what you've said?

The only thing I'll address right now is your comment about Goku quitting against Cell. He didn't quit, he only fought so Gohan could see Cell's moves. Goku wanted Gohan to be the one to save the world. As he said in the buu saga, he watned his boys to try their hands at saving the world because he wouldn't be around forever.

I remember the Cell saga very well, Goku admitted that he couldn't beat cell and Vegeta said that he wasn't as strong as Goku at that time. You're right when Goku said that he wanted Gohan to fight Cell and save the world.

[Odin's Lapdog]

He still quit, but him dying would have done nothing for Gohan, and he probably wouldn't have reached ssj 2 again if not provoked by his father.

[GammaBeast]

Goku never actually tried, had he wanted to defeat Cell himself he just would have trained himself instead of training Gohan.

Remember in the Frieza saga when Goku went from 5,000 to 180,000 in 6 days? Imagine if he had trained himself all out for that one year inside the time chamber and for the 10 days prior to the cell games.

[Odin's Lapdog]

I thought he realised that gohan was closer to reaching that goal than he was, and decided to concentrate his efforts on his son.

and there is a great big jump between even fully powered ascended saiyan and a newbie ssj2

maybe goku just didn't have the time, since younger bodies seem to make these transformations much quicker. Who knows how long gohan had been habouring this power level for, if not for that time in the chamber when they were fighting and goku caught a glimpse, he would have never guessed.

saying this though, i do realise that he spent alot of time waiting for gohan to catch up, time that he could have been using more effectively.


What i don't get is the fact that when he's fighting ubuu for all that time, we don't even see a glimpse of goku fighting in super saiyan form (none, let alone 3), so when people say that he's been training for a jillion years straight, how much of that is actually affective power gaining training?

[GammaBeast]

I think it's because he wanted his son to carry on his legacy.

My point about the time chamber was this. He spent a lot of the beginning time in there simply sitting down trying to figure out how to ascend, and he went to SS Ultra without actually training. All the while Gohan was training his hardest in the background, Gohan also trained himself while Goku was sick with the heart disease.

Also look at the android saga, Picollo and Goku went easy on Gohan so he could catch up. If Goku had gone off by himself for 3 years and trained all out as a super saiyan he could have ascended to ss2 by then and possibly ss3(though unlikely). Instead he stayed and devoted time to improving Gohan.

The entire Cell Saga up until the cell games is Goku helping Gohan. Had he spent the time alone he would have blown everyone away.

As for the training with Uub since we don't see them for 10 years we can't speculate on what they did.

[Guyverjay]

I actually read almost all read Kryptons points on another message board (not saying he copied them but that the info is there in other places) . Apparently they are almost all true. Goku was apparently was even slightly weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks. Buff Buu was the result of Kidd Buu absorbing the south kaioshin.

As for some of those questions Goku would have never merged with Hercule. That was just comic relief at best

Goku and vegeta not being able to beat buu while in his body is pretty self explanitory. They were the size of fleas and they were inside his body!!

Of course I don't believe krytpon has read the manga at all. I think just got this info inthe same places as I did.
The guy is a huge superman fan yet has read virtually NO superman comics. Yet he wants us to believe that he stumped up the cash for the manga? Of course he coud have just downloaded the pages, so then posting scans wouldn't be a problem.

Some scans please or at the very least some volume and pages numbers if you please

[bat_in_d_hat]

hey guys...can the original superman beat the crap out of gokou? i'm talking about the pre-crisis superman.

[Krpton]

its true, but i have not read all the superman comics, i just read the begginng and the fight between doomsday - when superman dies.

plus im a huge smallville, dean cane and movies superman fan, not a huge comic superman fan, i want to get into the comics.

but i just like dbz better than superman. but from all these things that i hear, superman sounds like he can beat goku in a fight?

as for the manga - i have read it. but i dont know hpw to put it up, i view it on CDisplay, dont believe me if u dont want to. ive read the manga and read bits of superman comics, and that show i like dbz better.

and i didnt copy or past, i just read the information long time ago, and now just explained it in my own words.

when goku gave up against cell, he still gave up, but for a reason, so that means he whimped out, he whiped out for a reason, a true saiyan will always finish a fight and never give/whimp out even if it is for a reason.

but the fact still remains that - in order:

super buu 3
super buu 2
super buu 1.5
buff buu
super buu
kid buu
evil buu
fat buu
mr buu

mystic gohan >>>ssj3 gotenks>>>ssj3 goku

so mystic gohan was the strongest at the end of z.


p.s like the guy above, can pre-crisis superman beat goku?

thanks.

[GammaBeast]

Probably not at the end of Z since Goku had 10 more years of training when Gohan did nothing.

But that logic still makes no sense.

If SS2 Majin Vegeta < fat buu and SS3 Goku < mystic gohan

how can Vegetto(Goku + Vegeta) in his base form exceed Super Buu 3 (Skinny Buu + Fat Buu+Goten + Trunks + Picollo + Mystic Gohan)?

[Krpton]

yeh thats true about the 10 yrs training thing, but we dont know how much stronger mystic gohan was, so we dont know if goku was the strongest, but from what we have seen at the end of z, mystic gohan is the strongest.

fat buu isnt the weakest buu.
and ssj3 and a really strong ssj2 fused with fusion dance is pretty strong.
but with the pottara which also increases their power is very strong, so it does make sense, but in the manga veggeto went ssj2, the anime makes mistake u know.

[Jason C C]

Mystic Gohan wasn't Exactly THAT much stronger imo. Certainly nothing Goku couldn't surpass in ten years.

FAt BUU IS the weakest BUU. What Buu was weaker then him??

[GammaBeast]

Vegetto did go SS2, but he fought Super Buu 3 for a while in his base form and he was winning effortlessly. He only went SS2 to show Buu he had no chance of winning.

Also when they fused Goku and Vegeta were in their BASE forms, so I repeat my statements:

If SS2 Majin Vegeta (at his peak supposedly) < fat buu and SS3 Goku (at his peak as you say) < mystic gohan

how can BASE Vegetto(BASE Goku + BASE Vegeta) in his base form exceed Super Buu 3 (Skinny Buu + Fat Buu+Goten + Trunks + Picollo + Mystic Gohan)? Super Buu 3 wasn't even close to him.

The Fusion could not possibly have given them that much of a boost.

[Jason C C]

In the manga They were super sayan straight from the bat. They DID NOT FIGHT BUU IN THEIR BASE FORM. Plus the potarra fusion is lot more powerful than the dance. Trunks and Goten were able to go SSJ3 once they did the dance. That should tell you how powerful Vegetto really was. Plus its not only power level Vegetto had ALL of Goku and Vegetas fighting skills also.

[Odin's Lapdog]

Originally posted by Jason C C
Mystic Gohan wasn't Exactly THAT much stronger imo. Certainly nothing Goku couldn't surpass in ten years.

FAt BUU IS the weakest BUU. What Buu was weaker then him?? The thing i always thought about Gohan was that when he went mystic, his power levels inreased that much, that he no longer needed to go super saiyan, but what if he did though?

wouldn't that put him on a whole nother level, even comparable to a possible ssj 5 of so?

That's why i've always thought that he was much stronger, although he never really thought that he would need to power up to that level to take out buu, you know saiyans and their cockyness.

[Krpton]

mr buu is the weakest from of buu.

we dont know how much strong mystic gohan is. we didnt see gohans full power becaus ehe didnt have to show it, but some will argue that his potential was unleased but we still never saw the full power of the unleased power.

[GammaBeast]

I didn't mean that Goku and Vegeta fought in their base forms, I said they FUSED in their base forms. So Vegetto is a combination of them in their BASE forms, and in his BASE form he handed Buu his ass.

[Jason C C]

Of course we did, he was obviously trying his hardest when Super Buu (plus piccollo and gotenks) was kicking his ass all over the place
.

Btw who the hell is MR BUU

[GammaBeast]

Originally posted by Odin's Lapdog
The thing i always thought about Gohan was that when he went mystic, his power levels inreased that much, that he no longer needed to go super saiyan, but what if he did though?

wouldn't that put him on a whole nother level, even comparable to a possible ssj 5 of so?

That's why i've always thought that he was much stronger, although he never really thought that he would need to power up to that level to take out buu, you know saiyans and their cockyness.

It's not that he didn't go SSJ, it's that he couldn't anymore. His energy was altered in such a way that he no longer has the capability. Remember Old Kai told him to 'do that super saiyan thing you do'. When Gohan tried to go SSJ he went mystic instead.

The GT writers ****ed that up though.

[Jason C C]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
, and in his BASE form he handed Buu his ass.

Which DID NOT HAPPEN in the manga. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

[Odin's Lapdog]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
I didn't mean that Goku and Vegeta fought in their base forms, I said they FUSED in their base forms. So Vegetto is a combination of them in their BASE forms, and in his BASE form he handed Buu his ass. does it matter what form they fuse in, i mean it obviously does, but the kids where both able to get to ssj 3 even though they couldn't even become ascended in their normal forms.

eh, i dunno. this thread keeps racking my brain everytime i post in it.:(

[Jason C C]

The potarra earing fusion doesn't depend on power level at all

[Odin's Lapdog]

Originally posted by GammaBeast
It's not that he didn't go SSJ, it's that he couldn't anymore. His energy was altered in such a way that he no longer has the capability. Remember Old Kai told him to 'do that super saiyan thing you do'. When Gohan tried to go SSJ he went mystic instead.

The GT writers ****ed that up though. ya know, i've never even watched all those eps, this was my least favourite saga, there's loads of GT i like compared to this, and even the garlic jnr saga is rated higher so this is all new news.

for some reason someone told me that he was told not to go super saiyan because the energy released may blow up the planet, or something along those lines.

was that said in the original anime, manga on in any interviews with toriyama?