Worst Continuity Ever! (CW#4 Spoilers)

[Ultimate Kaine]

Okay. I can understand today's Spider-Man writers don't want to reference the clone saga. Hell, I can even understand why they throw in clone jokes now and then (cheap shot for hack writers). Butttttt, I have a little trouble with CIVIL WAR #4.

In it, we discover the pro-reg heroes have a cloning operation going on. Spider-Man's among them. And he doesn't even flinch or bat an eyelid. Does he not remember how the lasting effects of the clone saga wreaking havok on his life? What in holy **** kind of writing is this?

[Kevin Roegele]

It's also something the editing should have fixed.

[wolvie2020]

Actually, you'll notice that when Parker looks th clone in the eye is that when Peter asks Hank if they made the wrong decision...

Also, throughout all of this, it's clear Spidey is being kept out of the loop, and Reed and Stark have become suspicious of him...

[MaskedManJRK]

Yeah, it looked like everyone but Tony and probably Reed were the only ones who knew about clone-Thor.

[Cyclops]

That is what bugs me about this. That Tony and Reed would clone their old friend and use him as a deadly weapon. How ****ed up is that?

Congratulations, Mark Millar. You've turned Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic into mother****ing SUPER VILLAINS.

[Joker]

They'll probably deal with Spidey's thoughts on the cloning in ASM, which has been going on, you know, concurrently with Civil War

[Eddie Brock]

That is what bugs me about this. That Tony and Reed would clone their old friend and use him as a deadly weapon. How ****ed up is that?

Congratulations, Mark Millar. You've turned Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic into mother****ing SUPER VILLAINS.
you're suprised....?

[HoratioRome]

That is what bugs me about this. That Tony and Reed would clone their old friend and use him as a deadly weapon. How ****ed up is that?

Congratulations, Mark Millar. You've turned Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic into mother****ing SUPER VILLAINS.

OMG! are you serious?

How far is this gonna go?

[3dman27]

That is what bugs me about this. That Tony and Reed would clone their old friend and use him as a deadly weapon. How ****ed up is that?

Congratulations, Mark Millar. You've turned Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic into mother****ing SUPER VILLAINS.
marvel shoud go back to using real comic writers and not people like millar who don't know how to write superheroes in PROPER CHARACTER and give joey q a new more apropriate office one with the word JANITOR on the door

[Eddie Brock]

OMG! are you serious?

How far is this gonna go?
it can't get much worse than it already is...
*waits for those douches at Marvel to prove me wrong*

[SpideyInATree]

I was questioning that myself once they revealed that Thor was merely a clone. There was that panel where Pete was looking into it's eyes, and lets recall that this book is focusing on the MARVEL UNIVERSE, and not just Peter Parker.

I'm going to reserve my full judgement until this Wednesday when ASM # 535 comes out. If there isn't much deliberation with Spidey and the whole "cloning" thing I may be a little tiffed, as I just couldn't see Spider-Man being too happy about seeing a Thor clone after what happened with him during the Clone Saga, despite whether Marvel wants to ignore it or not.

But, there is ASM # 535 which, so far, has done a good job of delving deeper into Spidey's psyche through the Civil War mini.

[Ultimate Kaine]

I'm a bit more calmed down now folks. But I don't like this. I don't like the comics of today. Each new Marvel comic gives me high blood pressure. Can't be good for the ol' ticker. Either comics or fast food gotta go.

[CConn]

I'm a bit more calmed down now folks. But I don't like this. I don't like the comics of today. Each new Marvel comic gives me high blood pressure. Can't be good for the ol' ticker. Either comics or fast food gotta go.Not posting in the Spidey boards would help too.

[Narynan]

I'm a bit more calmed down now folks. But I don't like this. I don't like the comics of today. Each new Marvel comic gives me high blood pressure. Can't be good for the ol' ticker. Either comics or fast food gotta go.

If you dont like them dont buy them. Change the way things are done and dont support it.

And no, its not easier said than done.

[Cyclops]

you're suprised....?

Surprised, no. Disappointed, yes.

[CConn]

And livid. Don't forget livid.

[daveswb]

What gets me is they cloned him like it was no big deal. The emptiness of it all was lame. No debat on weather it was right or not. Reguradless of Peter's feelings There are no other heroes that think cloning is wrong? The argument of staying on the pro-reg side, because it's the lawful side I think just ran out.

And on the subject of laws, has anyone talked about that at all yet? They call it a Civil war, but it really isn't a war. So them killing Goliath was a crime. Not an act of war. And the people respnsible need to go to court! Where is that side of the argument?

[MaskedManJRK]

What gets me is they cloned him like it was no big deal. The emptiness of it all was lame. No debat on weather it was right or not. Reguradless of Peter's feelings There are no other heroes that think cloning is wrong? The argument of staying on the pro-reg side, because it's the lawful side I think just ran out.

And on the subject of laws, has anyone talked about that at all yet? They call it a Civil war, but it really isn't a war. So them killing Goliath was a crime. Not an act of war. And the people respnsible need to go to court! Where is that side of the argument?

I think it was pretty much unanamous by all sides that it was wrong, hence no debate.

As for "Civil War," I think they just used that title because it means a group or country fighting amonst each other, such as what the heroes are doing here. Hence, Civil War.

[daveswb]

I'm sorry, I thought I made it clear about my point. That this isn't a war, so killing Goliath is a crime. Why has no one brought that up yet?

[Rambo, John J]

He was killed by government sanctioned super-heroes controlling a government sanctioned clone of mass destruction in pursuit of wanted 'criminals'.

Whatever the ethical and moral implications, I hardly expect the government to round up it's own troops under the umbrella of 'legal technicality'.

;)

[wolvie2020]

He was killed because government sanctioned capes were doing their job given by the American. Their job? Bring in super powered humans who are breaking American registration laws...

I don't understand what's the difficulty in understanding this. Goliath was killed while not only breaking major American laws, but also while attempting to 'cause harm to government sanctioned people who are trying to uphold the law.

Killling him in this situation isn't a criminal act. Whether the new law is moral, that's a different question altogther

[wolvie2020]

I'm sorry, I thought I made it clear about my point. That this isn't a war, so killing Goliath is a crime. Why has no one brought that up yet?

Well, judging by your standards this may not be a war, but this is Marvel's idea of a civil war between super heroes.

It technically falls in line of past and current civil wars. If you've read Civil War:Front Line, you may have a better understanding of how Marvel relate this to a real civil war

In the main book, we're seeing thew story between the main players, and the Generals and Directors don't die often. Super heroes are fighting all around America regarding this, there are sleeper cells, and more.

Whether you like it or not, this is a civil war in the story. And whether it's a civil war or not doesn't affect Goliath's death, he died because he was breaking the law. You or I may not like the law, but when you break a law and something bad happens to you, that's your own fault.

Saying that, Goliath's death swung the super hero communities favour to Cap, so in a sense Goliath, (very loosely,) became a martyr for the cause...

[daveswb]

He was killed by government sanctioned super-heroes controlling a government sanctioned clone of mass destruction in pursuit of wanted 'criminals'.

Whatever the ethical and moral implications, I hardly expect the government to round up it's own troops under the umbrella of 'legal technicality'.

;)


Wow, what country do you live in? Soliders and cops go on trial all the time because of different crimes they commit. Look at the inquiry into 9/11 and the implications made agains the current and previous establihmnts. Rodney King, Ollie North, so on and so forth. Cops do not go around blowing people away for the fun of it. If they did, they would go on trial. Soliders can only kill and destroy of as an act of war. Which takes a congressional vote.

What I'm saying, is yeah it's cool action to watch in comic and/or on the big screen, but if they want to bring a slice of 'reality' into the comics with this super-human registration act, well then they need to be more indepth and realistic on both sides of the story. Which they have not been. Too many holes. CW 4 made the whole series go into the toilet.

[crivelliman]

Yeah, Pete's been through the cloning thing before, but you may notice some of the other threads and discussions have brought up Pete's complete trust in the group he's with. I mean, he's always looked to Reed as a benchmark or a figure of admiration. He's literally rubbing elbows with people who shape the way the MU has gone. He also is completely sanctioned by the US government for the first time ever, in his mind. To him, he has no reason not to trust them. So true, he has had problems with clones going wonky created by college professor Warren, but this is Reed mf'ing Richards and Tony Stark, here. Plus Pym and others who have had a ton of experience in scientific realms that trump the Jackal's ability to make countless crappily made, degenrating clones. I'm merely saying that in Peter's mind, that could very well be his line of thinking.

[farmernudie]

I mean, he's always looked to Reed as a benchmark or a figure of admiration.


And yet issue after issue in continuity Pete's always gone out of his way to hide his face and identity from him, even time after time when Reed was saving his life in someway.

The cloning thing that has popped up in Civil War now, should also have made Pete go off, knowing how troublesome a situation it is....as a scientist himself, and as a person who has lots of dealings with it...again, in continuity of his lifetime experiences.

And yes, you'd think other heroes would have trouble with the cloning thing too.

Spidey is being written out of character totally, in an ongoing way....yet others are too to some extent. All for the sake of this big moneymaking series.

They (Marvel) can have a good STORY without resorting to blatant out of character writing and shock and awe tactics....but chooses not to.

[Kevin Roegele]

How can you clone Thor?

His powers are magic, they're not in his DNA.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

If you've been reading some of the recent issues of FF, you'll see that a guy with the initials "DB" on his briefcase found the hammer, picked it up, and was struck by lightning.

My guess is that they didn't clone Thor, but Donald Blake. The same thing, really...

[Ultimate Kaine]

If you dont like them dont buy them. Change the way things are done and dont support it.

And no, its not easier said than done.

That's the stupidest internet argument against complaining about comics ever.

Ever.

Do the fans in the bleachers, when faced with their favorite baseball team failing over and over due to bad players, or bad performance, just stop going to the games? No, they stick around. Support them all they can. And if they want to call them pricks at the same time, that's fine too. Team's gotta lift their game.

[vegeta21]

I'm suspecting that there's someone manipulating Tony and Reed, causing them to act out of character. But maybe I'm just hopeful.

[vegeta21]

That's the stupidest internet argument against complaining about comics ever.

Ever.

Do the fans in the bleachers, when faced with their favorite baseball team failing over and over due to bad players, or bad performance, just stop going to the games? No, they stick around. Support them all they can. And if they want to call them pricks at the same time, that's fine too. Team's gotta lift their game.


Hey, boycotts helped return Peter Parker's status as the one true SPider-Man. As for me, I won't be boycotting anything. If I didn't boycott during the Byrne/Mackie reboot, I won't be boycotting this.

[CConn]

That's the stupidest internet argument against complaining about comics ever.

Ever.

Do the fans in the bleachers, when faced with their favorite baseball team failing over and over due to bad players, or bad performance, just stop going to the games?Yes, they do.

A simple statement. Sales dictate everything. That's not my opinion. That's not a theory. That's straight out fact. In movies, music, comics, whatever, sales and moneymaking mean (nearly) everything. If you're here complaining just for the helluva and to worsen your health, fine by me, but if you actually think it's going to change anything, it isn't.

As long as Civil War is the top selling book every month it's released (which it is), as long as ASM is selling a ton of issues (which it is), Marvel isn't going to give a damn about whatever you, me or anyone here, is complaining about.

[Ultimate Kaine]

Turning it around on the comic reader and saying it's our fault basically because we continue to buy it is bull**** man. Do you blame the beaten wife who stays with her partner? 'Cause if she doesn't like it, she'd leave right?

Sounds like a far fetched analogy (and I love my analogies) but something can be said for the psychological effects of good/bad comics.

When a Spidey comic is going good, okay, we grow complacent. But when it's big and bad, we really get out there and buy them, because we don't want to believe they've ****ed up an icon. We go and buy each one and as sad and shocking as the truth may be, we hang in there, because maybe, just maybe, things will get better 'next issue'. Of course, like the mouse on the treadmill, we never get anywhere, or to this fabled better place. And I'd argue that the kind of writing and changes that are riling us up this way is partially a pre-determined specific ploy the creators are making, because it's not that they don't understand comic fans. It's that they do.

Bad movies continue to make money, bad comics will too. You can't just wave your hand and call for an upheavel in the way millions of comic consumers' brains work and you can't call for boycotts that don't in any way specify to the creators what we want (just what we don't want, which leads to more trial & error).

It's on them, man. It's all on the creators to fix things. It's their job. You can't hold me or fans responsible because of what's in our blood (Spider-man).

[CConn]

No no, I'm not saying it's our fault. It's theirs obviously. I'm simply saying the only way to effectively let them know what they're doing sucks is by affecting sales. As I said before, if you're complaining just to let off some steam, fine, but don't think making pissed off posts here will do a damn thing to change anything if you're still buying every issue.

[Cyclops]

They don't care about what we say here. Or on any internet site. In fact, Quesada's expressed distinct disdain for us.

If we say that what they're doing is wrong, they'll point to the sales chart and say "According to this, we're doing everything a-okay." Because that's all that matters to them.

[Ultimate Kaine]

No no, I'm not saying it's our fault. It's theirs obviously. I'm simply saying the only way to effectively let them know what they're doing sucks is by affecting sales. As I said before, if you're complaining just to let off some steam, fine, but don't think making pissed off posts here will do a damn thing to change anything if you're still buying every issue.

I ain't posting here all pissed off because I think it'll affect the comic. I'm posting here because I think this may be a place where there are fellow fans who feel the same way. If that's not the case, let me know and I'll be off.

If we say that what they're doing is wrong, they'll point to the sales chart and say "According to this, we're doing everything a-okay." Because that's all that matters to them.

Yeah, but be careful what you wish for. Low sales won't nessecarily affect positive change, it puts Spider-Man as a whole into jeapordy. Fans screamed for the clone saga to end, and once it did and they had Parker back, profits fell, to the point they cancelled Spidey titles and did the reboot which was arguably far worse. The comics need to be selling well so they can use some of that windfall money to poach some decent writers and artists.

But anyway, back on my beaten-path topic - I feel strongly enough about the clone saga, and Spider-Man's continuity enough to be rightly pissed off at Parker's forgetfulness/noobness in CIVIL WAR #4. That's all.

[CConn]

I ain't posting here all pissed off because I think it'll affect the comic. I'm posting here because I think this may be a place where there are fellow fans who feel the same way. If that's not the case, let me know and I'll be off.Yeah, originally I wasn't quite sure what you were arguing against. If that's all it is, I don't disagree.

Granted, some people go way overboard, but that's another matter entirely. :o

[Rambo, John J]

Wow, what country do you live in? Soliders and cops go on trial all the time because of different crimes they commit. Look at the inquiry into 9/11 and the implications made agains the current and previous establihmnts. Rodney King, Ollie North, so on and so forth. Cops do not go around blowing people away for the fun of it. If they did, they would go on trial. Soliders can only kill and destroy of as an act of war. Which takes a congressional vote.

What I'm saying, is yeah it's cool action to watch in comic and/or on the big screen, but if they want to bring a slice of 'reality' into the comics with this super-human registration act, well then they need to be more indepth and realistic on both sides of the story. Which they have not been. Too many holes. CW 4 made the whole series go into the toilet.

It depends on how far one would like this series to reflect the 'real' world.

Lets face it, Marvel aren't going to be breaking any societal moulds here, they'll only be examining the implications of what happens insofar as it affects the immediate story. Thus far, from what we've all seen, the anti reg's are the 'criminals' and the pro regs the 'law'.

For Marvel to address the issue i.e. what is and isn't excessive force; or should Reed/ IM/ Clor be punished for any supposed breach of reasonable force; will go well beyond the immediate story. Doesn't mean such a story won't happen - in fact it could make for an interesting storyline in itself - but it won't happen in the CW series and if it does, at most, it'll be referenced once or twice and swept under the carpet.