Contest of Marvels II Thread 1 [Archive] - Page 3

Phaedrus45

12-14-2006, 04:22 PM

LOCATION: Latveria/Castle Doom

In the Marvel Comics fictional universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_universe), Doctor Doom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Doom) makes his home in Castle Doom, a high 110 room castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle) built in the 16th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_century) by the Latverian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latveria) nobleman Count Sabbat. It first appeared in Fantastic Four no.5.
The castle overlooks the Latverian capital of Doomstadt (formerly Hassenstadt). Doom has lived in the castle since usurping the throne from King Vladimir, save for the brief periods when the throne was usurped from him by Prince Zorba or Doom's own "heir," Kristoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristoff_Vernard). Doom destroyed the castle to quell a rebellion lead by he exiled Prince Rudolpho. The rebuilt castle's general out structure remained the same, but current technology was integrated into the castle's structure in accordance to Doom's specifications.
The exterior walls of Castle Doom are constructed of reinforced stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masonry), and the tower roofs are also reinforced. Moments after an attack is detected, force screens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_field_%28science_fiction%29) spring up around the exterior walls. Interior walls are also made of stone and reinforced, and all interior doors are made of wood reinforced with steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel). Doom's above-ground laboratories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratories) are supplemented with energy screens that can reflect attacks back onto its point of origin.
Guards are posted along the exterior walls at all times. Standard shifts include six Doom-Knights on the higher towers, six Warrior Robots patrolling the lower parapets, four human Latverian Guardsmen watching the front gate and main entrance, and a minimum of three Guardian Robots patrolling the woods around the based of Castle Doom. Built into the castle are a number of deterrents, including stunners, shock fields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock) on the walls, doors and windows, and gas emitters that can fill a room with knock-out gas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anesthesia) or an exceedingly lethal poison gas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison). It Doom feels these measures are not extreme enough, he will employ excessive measures such as his Rainbow Missiles or Vortex Machines. The weakest defensive point of Castle Doom are the docks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dock_%28maritime%29) that open out to the Klyne River -- this entrance is only staffed by two human Latverian Guardsmen and four to six Warrior Robots.
Visual, audible and motion sensors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_sensor) honeycomb Castle Doom and Latveria. Only the fear in Doom's underlings slows his knowledge of all that goes on in his domain, as his minions are understandably hesitant to bring him bad news. Doom has built in triple-redundant protective devices around his surveillance and security systems, requiring an amazing degree of skill to neutralize the alarms or surveillance devices.
Castle Doom contains one basement and five sub-basements. The basement contains Doom's wine cellars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_cellar) and storage space for miscellaneous housewares. The first sub-basement is contorted with small winding passageways that lead only into various trapped rooms. Separated from these corridors is Doom's hangar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangar), which can open to the castle's courtyard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courtyard) or via a ramp leading out behind the castle. The second sub-basement holds Doom's primary research & development laboratories. This floor also contained numerous torture chambers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_chamber), which Doom equipped with various power-inhibiting devices when he converted them into superhuman detention cells. The Memory Transference Machine, which was used to turn Kristoff into a mental clone of Doom, is also located on this level. Prison cells nested in a tangled maze of corridors make up 30% of the third sub-basement. The remainder of this level is used for Doom's major projects, such as his Cosmic Energizer and his currently inert series of Doomsman androids. The highly advanced and extremely efficient nuclear reactor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reactor) which powers Castle Doom is located in the fourth sub-basement, as are more secret laboratories and workshops. The fifth sub-basement is equal parts worked stone and natural caverns. An offshoot of the Klyne River runs through this level, which feeds three backup hydroelectric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroelectric) generators. Doom's magical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_%28paranormal%29) summoning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summoning) room is also located on this level, as is a supplemental robot construction facility.
The Ground Floor contains the grand entry hall and a lavish reception hall with a raised throne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throne). Behind a large tapestry in the back of the throne room is a concealed door leading to a robing room and study. To the left of the entry hall is Doom's art gallery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_gallery), antiquated kitchens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitchen) and the chef (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chef)'s quarters, and a staff lounge and staff dining area. To the right of the robing room are hallways leading to a robot repair/recharge area, a fully stocked armory, and guard bunks.
The 2nd floor contains the grand ballroom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballroom), the official throne room (a high-ceilinged chamber where Doom holds his more diplomatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic) meetings), a formal dining room, servant's quarters, expensively furnished guest rooms, a music room (housing Doom's Hyper-Sound Piano), the castle museum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum) (featuring the Latverian crown jewels and various mementos of Doom's conquests), the archives/royal historian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historian)'s office, the communications center, robot construction workshops, offices for various staff, and a balcony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony) from which to address the public. Guard bunks and guard posts are scattered throughout this floor.
The 3rd floor holds several secondary R&D laboratories, scientist's quarters, a medical infirmary, the hangar, a surveillance center (focused on the national/domestic level), and robot construction workshops. Guard posts, mostly manned by robotic guards, are scattered throughout this level.
The 4th Floor holds several tertiary R&D laboratories, including a holography & laser lab, a chemical lab, and a genetics lab. A surveillance center, focused on international events, is also located on this level.
Floors 5-10 are located in Castle Doom's massive central tower. The 5th floor houses a game room, and the 6th floor holds Doom's living quarters. The 7th floor holds Doom's private scientific laboratories, and Doom's private magical laboratory & workshop are located on the 8th floor. The 9th and 10th floor holds Doom's private 2-story library (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library).
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doom)"

(ALL BATTLES MUST STAY IN CASTLE DOOM. Of course, Doom won't be present, but anything (or anyone) who would normally be there in the Master's absense will be, including Doombots. But, take note, Doombots will not attack the participants, unless your character would be able to do something with them to help in his/her match.)

Phaedrus45

12-14-2006, 06:05 PM

Important character note:

Kid Omega is from his New X-Men appearances, "Riot at Xaviers." His appearance in the Phoenix: Endsong miniseries cannot be used for this match.

Phaedrus45

12-14-2006, 06:15 PM

Kid Omega vs. Harvest:

Ok, let's look at each character's powers first:

Harvest:

As a member of the Phalanx, Harvest could shapeshift, access computers with the speed of thought, and create plasma-firing weapons out of his body, as well as absorb organic and inorganic materials, including people, to regenerate himself.

Kid Omega:

Quentin possessed advanced cognitive and telepathic abilities enable him to organize and construct his thoughts at accelerated rates, overtly or covertly manipulate the minds of others, resist mind probes, and disable other forms of psychic manipulation. Emma Frost stated that his mind processed several thousand brilliant thoughts a second.

What I would first like to point out is one important note concerning the Phalanx: "mutants possessed a resistance to the virus." Plus, Harvest would have absolutely no information on Quentin at all; but, Quentin would have the entire X-men database on Harvest and the Phalanx. He'd know what to expect and how to defeat him. Plus, Quentin was known at the time to take the drug, Kick, which he would definitely do right before his match began.

Quentin would arrive at the castle, and with his ability to "process several thousand brilliant thoughts a second, realize what to use within Castle Doom. Harvest couldn't take over Kid Omega's body or mind, just for the simple fact that one of Kid Omega's abilities is resist any type of mind probe; and, as noted above, being a mutant is the advantage in dealing with the Phalanx. More than likely, Quentin would take over Harvest and order him to end his life. After all, Quentin would have no qualms about talking someone's life.

Winner = Kid Omega

Zoken

12-14-2006, 08:26 PM

Fu Manchu vs. Joseph

Wow, heck of a character to come up against, I won't lie. Not a harsh battle though. Fu Manchu can hypnotize people by looking them in the eye. of course he's at a disadvantage when it comes to preparation, but so long as he can manage to make eye contact with Joseph he can subdue him and win.

Seeing as Joseph was decidedly a GOOD guy, his best hope, which is mass destruction, is out. Fu Manchu is a master criminal, so hes going to be able to hide amongst the population until he's ready to confront Joseph.

JewishHobbit

12-15-2006, 08:20 AM

Quentin would have the entire X-men database on Harvest and the Phalanx. He'd know what to expect and how to defeat him.

Typically the students at Xavier's do not have access to the X-Men's files.

Harlekin

12-15-2006, 09:22 AM

Phaedrus45

12-15-2006, 07:01 PM

Typically the students at Xavier's do not have access to the X-Men's files.

But, I think you would agree that Quentin is not your typical student. With his brilliance, he'd find a way to access files, especially since he resides on X-Men property. Plus, he should be able to gain information on the Phalanx. The guy is a genius.

JewishHobbit

12-15-2006, 07:30 PM

But, I think you would agree that Quentin is not your typical student. With his brilliance, he'd find a way to access files, especially since he resides on X-Men property. Plus, he should be able to gain information on the Phalanx. The guy is a genius.

I'll await your response to my PM before responding to this. Don't want to overstep boundries.

JewishHobbit

12-15-2006, 08:00 PM

Joseph Vs Fu Manchu

Okay, this is only tough for one reason... there's not much info to find on Fu Manchu that is relavent to the character. Apparently he's been everything from a movie character to a bar waitress. Anyhow, I've read on several bios that he's an accomplished magician and that he can hyptnotize (almost) anyone by looking into their eyes. The bad thing is that I have no idea what extent his magic skills are, whether he's Dr. Strange level, or something much much lower. And even beside that, his stare... how quickly does it work? Does he have instant control at a glance? Does he have to pursuade them to finally give in? Does it work at a distance? Based on the lack of info I'm going to have to simply battle his hyptnotic stare for now.

That said, it's an effective weapon that could place Joseph in a bad situation. The thing is, Joseph is typically hot headed. In his first appearance he killed a bunch of people who endangered those who took him in. Later he attacked the Avengers and anyone who posed him danger. He was never one to just talk. He's a good guy, but he balanced on the dark road just as often (though seldom crossing it). So here's the deal... he will know little of Fu Manchu and I doubt that the X-Men have files on him, so that won't help. Similarly, Fu will know nothing of Joseph. Also, the location does little to aid either character.

If Fu is anything like most bad guys geniouses, he'd like to talk, and Joseph won't have patience. The fight will begin and and Joseph typically attacks at a distance. I can't remember Joseph ever fighting up close, so that works in his favor regarding the hyptnotic stare. If he isn't close enough to focus on Fu's eyes, he won't be taken by him. I can see him finding his oponant and simply using the iron in his blood and sending the guy through a stone wall. He could see that he knows nothing of Fu, and to keep from danger, simply makes the man sleep. He could find a technological room of Doom's, or several doom bots, and launch them at Fu, or break them apart and build a prison for Fu and imprison him, leaving him defenseless and at a loss. There's a lot of ways for Joseph to win against Fu, and without much info on how Fu works, there's not a whole lot I can say to truly challenge him. Simply fight at a distance (which is typical Joseph) to not be hytnotized, and take him out in any number of ways that I've mentioned above.

Winner - Joseph

Midnight Ice

12-16-2006, 05:01 AM

Match 20:

Harvest (MIDNIGHT ICE) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/harvest.html)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/harvest.jpg

vs.

Kid Omega (PHAEDRUS45) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/kidomega.html)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_kidomega.jpg

I agree with JH that not every X-Kid can use the X-Men's computers, but its not that big a deal anyway...so on to the match!

Sure Kid Omega is a powerful mutant that is incredibly smart. The main advantage Harvest has is that he can instantly access any nearby computer! This match is taking place in Castle Doom. This castle is filled with comnputers. Not only computers, but Doom bots.

Accessing the castle's computers Harvest can use any and all defenses that Doom has installed into the fortress with his advanced technology. As stated in the location description there are things such as knock out and poison gas, (Kid Omega has to breathe), Rainbow missles and vortex generators. Using the castle's computers would be more than enough to stop Kid Omega. If this is not enough, Harvest has access to countless amounts of Doom bots. Doom bots are machines, so I doubt Kid Omega could do a whole lot to them.

With all of the Castle's defenses and Doom bots at Harvest's desposal, Kid Omega would try to put up a good fight, but in the end would fall. (Heck even the FF have had trouble with Doom bots and the castle's machinery.)

Winner: Harvest

hippy fascist

12-16-2006, 08:13 AM

Sorry it's a bit late but...run up to christmas and still haven't done all my shopping yet :(

Human Torch Vs Gravity

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7f/Htorch.PNG/250px-Htorch.PNG

This should be a very interesting match. They are both young and characters with fairly self explanitory names so I'm sure getting information prior to the match will be moot since they pretty much do exactly as their name suggests. The only x-factor here will be that Gravity won't know about the full extent of the nova flame. Johnny can heat his body up to 1'000'000 degrees, firing off the flame through a full 360 degree radius meaning it will simply be a case of finding gravity and letting it off at the right time. Johnny will have a bit of an advantage here since he will have a reasonable knowledge of the layout of castle doom whereas gravity will not. This will come in very handy since he will probably be able to use this information to find gravity before he finds Johnny. While gravity is very strong and can throw up forcefields, nothing can stop the nova flame once it get's going. The only real chance gravity hs is to hit Johhny and take him out before he can (excuse the pun) fire it up.

WINNER: JOHNNY STORM!

Harlekin

12-16-2006, 08:15 AM

hippy fascist

12-16-2006, 09:22 AM

OPENING COMMENTS: Gravity vs Human Torch
Meet the best new character to come out of Marvel in ages. I'd really like to recommend his mini-series (in a nice little digest format) to everyone reading this. It's a lot of fun, and really made me like this new guy. The similarities to my own person just made him that more relatable. He has the potential of being the Spider-Man of a new generation, something I hope Marvel capitalizes on soon. For more Gravity you can also read the Marvel Team-Up tradepaperback League of Losers, and the recently finished mini Beyond!

He's a great character and if beyond was finished in time would have been far more formidable but this is not the case and he's going down.
Also you refer to him as the next spider-man which is kinda fitting given that torch is practically a cosmic character whereas gravity is strictly street level

Now, for the actual battle. Gravity has, as you can guess, gravity manipulation. The Human Torch (what's with all the predictable names) has fire manipulation. Both are capable of flight. They're also both young, but the Torch has been in the game a lot longer and easily beats Gravity when it comes to experience. I won't try and refute that. However, Gravity's strength is in that youth, inexperience and a power that he is only really just beginning to tap.

Inexperience is not an advantage, inexperience causes people to lose fights they should easily win just read any early spidey comics for proof of that. This would be a tough match for gravity 3-4 years down the line. At this stage, it's pretty much impossible.

A small list of things he did in the Gravity mini:
- Punched the former New Warrior Rage through a few walls.[/ quote]

Fantastic, he beat a brawler in a brawl, wrong kind of fight since Johnny doesn't do hand to hand. Irrelevant

[quote]
- Is capable of picking up the Rhino using his gravity powers and throw him away.

Rhino is a moron (particularly since this happened adfter flowers for rhino) Johnny will not allow this to happen and since he can travle at speeds exceeeding the speed of sound he'll be playing the hit and run game here. Gravity won't have a chance to use this since as soon as he starts trying torch can be a few miles away in seconds.

- Beat the Shocker off-panel.

If off panel wins were relevant squirrel girl would win this contest. Unless you can tell me how he did it this is somewhat moot.

- Black Death used Gravity's powers to work as a "cosmic vacuum cleaner" all-destroying blast, ruining the campus of ESU.

Someone else using your powers does not equate to you being able to use them to that extent. The black death fight actually helps me since it proves that gravity can be just as naive as johnny

- Gravity took back control, used the blast to destroy Black Death's device, threw a big-ass boulder at him and then knocked him out cold.

to quote wiki:

"(Johhny) has sufficient ambient heat to vaporize projectiles that approach him. The Torch has been observed to vaporize rocks, bottles, bullets, and even steel girders in fractions of a second;"
This also helps with your fisfight analogy since gravity would suffer major burns just touching the torch

- Got a compliment from Spidey for kicking ass and taking names.

A compliment...this just once again proves that gravity is, like spidey, a street-level hero whereas Johnny is practically a cosmic level hero.

Now the Torch is going to underestimate this guy, because let's face it, Gravity's a newbie superhero that really only two or three people have even heard of.

Probably but torch has the kind of experience that within a minute or so he'll be able to assess the threat and step up his game. Gravity is already pushing the limits of his current abilities so this won't really effect the fight overall...

Gravity however, will do no such thing. He'll be able to know everything there is to know about the Torch, which is the downfall of the Fantastic Four not having any secret identities.

No, he'll know what the newspapers and TV have reported which will be based on second hand accounts and theory. The average person in the marvel u (which is about the level gravity's info will be at) Knows he can control fire and fly, but not the extent of these powers.

There'll be whole files on the Torch's capabilities and weaknesses that Gravity can tap into and use to his advantage. Heck, the fact that they are fighting in Castle Doom gives Gravity even more of an advantage. The place is practically made to combat the Fantastic Four, including the Torch.

Is gravity an avenger? Does he have shield clearance?
No so these files you speak of will NOT be available to him. He's going to have very basic info at best, more than the torch granted but only slightly

So what does Gravity need to do? He needs to get his ass away from the Torch and search Castle Doom for devices that will help him fight against the Torch.

Yes he does need to, but won't be able to since torch is simply too fast and knows castle doom too well, even if gravity somehow got away, he'd be trying to navigate an unfamiliar place and would doubless get lost very quickly. Johnny on the other hand knows castle doom only too well. He will find gravity quickly and barbecue the little punk.

If he cannot find these, or cannot find ones that aren't lethal, Gravity will be forced to face the Torch in combat. Let's look at the advantages Gravity has:

He's not fast enough to get away from the torch so it's going to come down to combat where sadly, gravity at this stage is simply not developed/experienced enough to take him on

- He can ward off most attacks with either use of a force field or creative use of his gravity powers.

All the enemy's he's faced so far have been low level, we still don't know the extent of his forcefields and I strongly doubt they can hold back johnny at full power.

With regards the gravity powers, he's in a fight against a VERY tough opponent, he'll stick to what he knows so if you can find any scans of him performing something that would work against Johnny I'll accept it but I'd need some kind of proof of him doing it before

- He has superior strength to the Torch, who has no superstrength at all.

When was the last time you saw Johnny in a brawl, won't happen and besides, he has superspeed meaning gravity wouldn't be able to get close enough to him

- The Torch has one easy weakness: water. Gravity can exploit this by destroying a water main in Castle Doom.

In the heat of a tough battle against as tough an opponent as the torch he will face three problems with this
a) Finding the water main ( this is unknown territory and a VAST buidling, he simply won't have time)
b) outrunning johnny (I say again CAN MOVE FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF SOUND)
c) The water will only affect johnny for seconds. Seriously it'd be like those trick birthday candles you can by, out for a second then poof, re-ignited. This has been shown to happen many a time and as soon as johnny got out of the water stream he'd hit the nova flame and the fight would be over!

- Gravity has faced a pyrokinetic before: Bushfire. Although not at the same level as the Torch, he has experience fighting someone with flame powers.

Seriously, that's like comparing doctor strange to Gob Bluth. Torch is the ULTIMATE fire meta whereas bushfire is a joke. All this shows is quite how far down the food chain gravity is. Johnny has taken on the likes of galactus,silver surfer, onslaught, doom, superskrull,etc... this doesn't even compare.

- Gravity can look up a lot more info on the Torch than the other way around.

Since most of this will come from the bugle/tv it will be limited and based on second hand accounts from witnesses. The four have never sat down and fully laid their power levels out in an interview before so this info will be sketchy at best. If it was thing or reed maybe, but sue and johnny's powers are too complex for the public to have a FULL understanding of them

Gravity's disadvantage would be in his inexperience, which he makes up for with a new healthy dose of confidence. Besides that, the Human Torch often tends to be reckless, giving Gravity, who more often stays calm, even more of an advantage. He should be able to win this.

Seriously...you're going to claim confidence will be an advantage over 40 years of experience. Johnny has learnt in this time, when to have fun and when to knuckle down. He may be reckless, but he's not stupid. He will do whatever's necessary to take gravity out of action.

WINNER=TORCH

hippy fascist

12-16-2006, 09:28 AM

REBUTTAL: Gravity vs Human Torch

The nova blast also y'know, kills people. Not a real Torch strategy. Heck, he'd definitely be more inclined to try and play with Gravity than finish up the fight quick. Gravity is much more focused and would be concentrated on taking care of business.

WINNER=GRAVITY

Ok so maybe the nova flame was a bit of an exageration but Johnny, you have to remember, is one of the most competitive people in the marvel universe.He will do what's necessary to win. The point of the nova flame is to illustrate how hot johnny can get, this would mean that even halfway there he could get through gravity's shields and take him out. He won't kill gravity but that won't stop him burning him badly enough to take him out of this fight.

WINNER: TORCH!

Phaedrus45

12-16-2006, 10:05 AM

I agree with JH that not every X-Kid can use the X-Men's computers, but its not that big a deal anyway...so on to the match!

Ok, I'm going to go with the assumption that Quentin is not allowed to gain entry into the X-Men's main files; but, the attack by the Phalanx was a big event, and Quentin would be able to find out information on who the Phalanx were and how they were defeated. This was a world-wide catastophe, and what sucks for Harvest is the fact that Quentin will know that they were defeated and Harvest won't.

Sure Kid Omega is a powerful mutant that is incredibly smart. The main advantage Harvest has is that he can instantly access any nearby computer! This match is taking place in Castle Doom. This castle is filled with comnputers. Not only computers, but Doom bots.

Accessing the castle's computers Harvest can use any and all defenses that Doom has installed into the fortress with his advanced technology. As stated in the location description there are things such as knock out and poison gas, (Kid Omega has to breathe), Rainbow missles and vortex generators. Using the castle's computers would be more than enough to stop Kid Omega. If this is not enough, Harvest has access to countless amounts of Doom bots. Doom bots are machines, so I doubt Kid Omega could do a whole lot to them.

The main problem with this is two-fold: First, Kid Omega is smart enough to access the same computers as Harvest; but, more importantly, Kid Omega is smart enough to know Doom would have devised fail-safes in his programs just in case someone tried to gain access. Once Harvest tried to take over Castle Doom, he would have brought down a whole lot of trouble on himself. Better men have tried this, and frankly, I think the Doombots would end up coming after Harvest (as we've seen smarter people, like Reed Richards, try to take over the castle and have quite a go with it. Simply put, Harvest is no Reed Richards.)

With all of the Castle's defenses and Doom bots at Harvest's desposal, Kid Omega would try to put up a good fight, but in the end would fall. (Heck even the FF have had trouble with Doom bots and the castle's machinery.)

You just helped prove my point. If it was that easy taking over the Castle, Reed would have no problem. But, this isn't a simple program. Doom is very paranoid, and for good reason. These are not simple programs to access. If they were, the Fantastic Four wouldn't have had such a problem in trying to take over Castle Doom when they did. Doom would have a fail-safe installed, and in the end, it would be Harvest who has the Doombots coming after him. Even you have to agree that Doom would not leave his castle undefended for a simple hacker to access his most important files.

Winner: Kid Omega

Harlekin

12-16-2006, 11:29 AM

REBUTTAL: Gravity vs Human Torch
Also you refer to him as the next spider-man which is kinda fitting given that torch is practically a cosmic character whereas gravity is strictly street level
Cosmic? Don't make me laugh. He doesn't come anywhere near that level. The nova attack is borderline cosmic, but not even that.

Inexperience is not an advantage, inexperience causes people to lose fights they should easily win just read any early spidey comics for proof of that. This would be a tough match for gravity 3-4 years down the line. At this stage, it's pretty much impossible.
Impossible's a pretty big word. I never touted inexperience as an advantage. I was referring to his potential, and how his inexperience factors into that. He's much more liable to pull off big power moves suddenly, as opposed to the Torch, who knows the ins and outs of his powers. Everything is a learning process for Gravity, which is both an advantage as well as a disadvantage.

Fantastic, he beat a brawler in a brawl, wrong kind of fight since Johnny doesn't do hand to hand. Irrelevant
It's not about him being a brawler. It's about knocking somebody twice your size and twice your strength through a couple of walls. This means Gravity needs to connect all of one time to knock Johnny out.

Rhino is a moron (particularly since this happened adfter flowers for rhino) Johnny will not allow this to happen and since he can travle at speeds exceeeding the speed of sound he'll be playing the hit and run game here. Gravity won't have a chance to use this since as soon as he starts trying torch can be a few miles away in seconds.
I wasn't using it as a strategy, I was noting it as a feat of his. Using your gravity powers to jump over Rhino, grab him by his horn and throw him away is not something that anyone can do. Heck, something like that is hard for even Spidey to pull off, if he can even do such a thing. Also, going the speed of sound in Castle Doom would quite frankly, be the stupidest thing for the Torch to do. That means smacking into a wall when he turns his first corner. Neither can really use the hit and run tactic here.

If off panel wins were relevant squirrel girl would win this contest. Unless you can tell me how he did it this is somewhat moot.
Again, just a feat listing. It's nothing special, but should be noted. Gravity also isn't a joke character.

Someone else using your powers does not equate to you being able to use them to that extent. The black death fight actually helps me since it proves that gravity can be just as naive as johnny
Actually, Gravity shows being capable of it when he turns the effect back on Black Death. Also, I hardly see how the Black Death thing helps you. Yes, Gravity is more naive than Torch. Duh, he's been in the game far longer than Gravity has. Doesn't mean he wouldn't be focussed on winning. Being tricked by a supervillain isn't really anything new for a superhero, especially not in the Black Death case, as it took him several months in which he earned Gravity's trust, costuming himself as a superhero.

"(Johhny) has sufficient ambient heat to vaporize projectiles that approach him. The Torch has been observed to vaporize rocks, bottles, bullets, and even steel girders in fractions of a second;"
This also helps with your fisfight analogy since gravity would suffer major burns just touching the torch
Not if he wraps himself in a nice handy dandy force field. It only takes one punch anyway. The throwing of walls, boulders, or even just plain bringing the house down on Johnny could serve as a distraction, but also a way to end the match (such as by bringing the castle down).

A compliment...this just once again proves that gravity is, like spidey, a street-level hero whereas Johnny is practically a cosmic level hero.
It was a joke, something I thought would be funny to note. Take a breath. And again, Torch is far removed from being a cosmic hero. Silver Surfer? That's a cosmic hero. Thor? That's a cosmic-type hero. Quasar? That's a cosmic hero. The Torch is nowhere near that ballpark.

Probably but torch has the kind of experience that within a minute or so he'll be able to assess the threat and step up his game. Gravity is already pushing the limits of his current abilities so this won't really effect the fight overall...
Which he's done, exactly, when? The Torch is a poseur, the kind of guy that'll play with his opponent. If he has no reason to suspect a threat, he will try and toy with the enemy. In this case, by the time the Torch finally gets the hint of stepping up his game, he'll have been knocked cold by Gravity.

No, he'll know what the newspapers and TV have reported which will be based on second hand accounts and theory. The average person in the marvel u (which is about the level gravity's info will be at) Knows he can control fire and fly, but not the extent of these powers.
There are Fantastic Four comics, endorsed by the FF, which would depict the Torch's powers. Heck, there's probably an encyclopedia article about the Torch, detailing some of his feats. Lord knows there'd be enough geeks in the Torch fanclub to do so. The battles of the Fantastic Four are practically always televized, and Gravity will know what Torch is capable of.

Is gravity an avenger? Does he have shield clearance?
No so these files you speak of will NOT be available to him. He's going to have very basic info at best, more than the torch granted but only slightly
Again, there's the geek sites. There's the official publicity packet brought out by the Fantastic Four and so many more venues for Gravity to be able to look up info about the Torch. There's literally a wealth of knowledge before him.

Yes he does need to, but won't be able to since torch is simply too fast and knows castle doom too well, even if gravity somehow got away, he'd be trying to navigate an unfamiliar place and would doubless get lost very quickly. Johnny on the other hand knows castle doom only too well. He will find gravity quickly and barbecue the little punk.
Knows Castle Doom too well? He knows the places he's fought in, and the prison he's slept in while captive of Doom. He'd hardly know the extent of Doom's castle, besides from the short time they spent there in Authorative Action, a time in which I doubt he went through the castle, keeping every little bit of the place in his mind. He might have a little advantage, but not much.

All the enemy's he's faced so far have been low level, we still don't know the extent of his forcefields and I strongly doubt they can hold back johnny at full power.
And Johnny will never, again, never operate at full power in a match like this. He's a hero, remember?

With regards the gravity powers, he's in a fight against a VERY tough opponent, he'll stick to what he knows so if you can find any scans of him performing something that would work against Johnny I'll accept it but I'd need some kind of proof of him doing it before
Something that would work against Johnny? Knocking his ass out. Beyond that, it's been shown that he can ward off attacks using his gravity powers, so he should be able to dodge the Torch.

When was the last time you saw Johnny in a brawl, won't happen and besides, he has superspeed meaning gravity wouldn't be able to get close enough to him
Johnny has the odd tendency of not sitting back and flinging fireballs at a person. He always has to get up close and personal, even when he's specifically told not to (since the Doom fight in Authorative Action, for one). He has superspeed when being able to fly in open air. In a confined space like the castle, superspeed just means his death.

a) Finding the water main ( this is unknown territory and a VAST buidling, he simply won't have time)
I can grant you this, but I would assume Doom has these kinds of things very handy, in case, y'know, the Fantastic Four attack him?
b) outrunning johnny (I say again CAN MOVE FASTER THAN THE SPEED OF SOUND)
And even using that kind of speed would mean his death, as he races headlong into a wall or into one of Doom's death traps. Superspeed isn't going to be of much use. Besides that, the Torch would allow Gravity a little headstart. Let's be honest here, Torch would be laughing his ass off at the fact this guy is challenging him, and let him do his thing. It's typical reckless Torch.
c) The water will only affect johnny for seconds. Seriously it'd be like those trick birthday candles you can by, out for a second then poof, re-ignited. This has been shown to happen many a time and as soon as johnny got out of the water stream he'd hit the nova flame and the fight would be over!
Seconds is all Gravity needs. Powers out and BAM! right in the kisser. Again with the nova flame. You know that attack is lethal and he's used it only in desperate times, right?

Seriously, that's like comparing doctor strange to Gob Bluth. Torch is the ULTIMATE fire meta whereas bushfire is a joke. All this shows is quite how far down the food chain gravity is. Johnny has taken on the likes of galactus,silver surfer, onslaught, doom, superskrull,etc... this doesn't even compare.
You're forgetting that he took all of those people on together with the Fantastic Four, and in most of the cases still got his ass beat the first time around. The Torch has never faced a big league supervillain on his own and won.

Since most of this will come from the bugle/tv it will be limited and based on second hand accounts from witnesses. The four have never sat down and fully laid their power levels out in an interview before so this info will be sketchy at best. If it was thing or reed maybe, but sue and johnny's powers are too complex for the public to have a FULL understanding of them
Johnny's powers are complex? Are you kidding me? The guy becomes flame and throws fireballs around. That's it.

Seriously...you're going to claim confidence will be an advantage over 40 years of experience. Johnny has learnt in this time, when to have fun and when to knuckle down. He may be reckless, but he's not stupid. He will do whatever's necessary to take gravity out of action.
10 years of experience, pal. Secondly, Johnny has always shown recklessness, even now, and it is always his downfall. It will be again.

Ok so maybe the nova flame was a bit of an exageration but Johnny, you have to remember, is one of the most competitive people in the marvel universe.He will do what's necessary to win. The point of the nova flame is to illustrate how hot johnny can get, this would mean that even halfway there he could get through gravity's shields and take him out. He won't kill gravity but that won't stop him burning him badly enough to take him out of this fight.
Are you under the impression you have some psycho version of the Torch? Burn him badly enough to take him out? This is a 17-year old kid he's facing. He's not going to go that kind of extra mile. Doom? No problem, but this a novice superhero he's facing. "Do what's necessary"? Hell no. Heck, he's not going to take this fight seriously at all, and just when the competition-drive kicks in, gets his ass kicked.

The Torch's biggest weakness isn't water.
It's his ego.

WINNER=GRAVITY

hippy fascist

12-16-2006, 12:13 PM

Ok I'm going to need a clarification before I continue this one. My belief is that Johnny would know castle doom backwards. He's fought there MANY times over the years in various different areas of the castle. As a result he should be well versed with the layout and location of most of the traps. I'm not going to post scans since I'm relying on DL'd comics due to my scanner being broken, plus how do you illustrate te sheer number of battles he's had there over the last however many years, so basically if Jewhobs/Phaed/Weige could give a ruling on this it would be greatly appreciated :up:

Phaedrus45

12-16-2006, 12:16 PM

Harlekin

12-16-2006, 12:33 PM

Familiar, I'll grant, and that is something I've admitted to. Knowing the castle like the back of his hand? Hardly. He's spent most of his time in the castle in either the prison or a single room where they would have fought Doom. Battles with Doom have never been a castle wide thing. Like I said, he's really only got the time that they lived there, and I doubt Johnny took the time to memorize everything. Lastly, I'd expect Doom to change that lay-out afterwards anyway.

It's up to the voters though as far as I'm concerned when it comes to the castle.

hippy fascist

12-16-2006, 02:57 PM

REBUTTAL: Gravity vs Human Torch

Cosmic? Don't make me laugh. He doesn't come anywhere near that level. The nova attack is borderline cosmic, but not even that.

The purpose of that comment was to highlight the level of the enemies he has faced, not his own powers. If that was unclear I apologise. The point is that gravity has only faced off against the likes of the rhino et al whereas johnny has been involved in the majority of MAJOR conflicts that have occured throughout the history of the marvel U. He's used to facing UBER opponents, gravity is not.

Impossible's a pretty big word. I never touted inexperience as an advantage. I was referring to his potential, and how his inexperience factors into that. He's much more liable to pull off big power moves suddenly, as opposed to the Torch, who knows the ins and outs of his powers. Everything is a learning process for Gravity, which is both an advantage as well as a disadvantage.

I still don't see how not having full control over your powers is an advantage. He may pull off big power moves accidentally buttheir focus will be off and will rarely achieve what he intends them to.

It's not about him being a brawler. It's about knocking somebody twice your size and twice your strength through a couple of walls. This means Gravity needs to connect all of one time to knock Johnny out.

And as I said he won't get close since he's not likely to get close enough/not fast enough to catch Johnny

I wasn't using it as a strategy, I was noting it as a feat of his. Using your gravity powers to jump over Rhino, grab him by his horn and throw him away is not something that anyone can do. Heck, something like that is hard for even Spidey to pull off, if he can even do such a thing. Also, going the speed of sound in Castle Doom would quite frankly, be the stupidest thing for the Torch to do. That means smacking into a wall when he turns his first corner. Neither can really use the hit and run tactic here.

Many cars can do 150mph despite this breaking pretty much every speed limit in the world. The point is not the top speed itself but the better level of acceleration allowing Johnny to zip round astle doom much faster than gravity.

Again, just a feat listing. It's nothing special, but should be noted. Gravity also isn't a joke character.

Never said he was, hell I think he's a great character but he is very new and doesn't have the skills to take someone like Johnny out...yet

Actually, Gravity shows being capable of it when he turns the effect back on Black Death. Also, I hardly see how the Black Death thing helps you. Yes, Gravity is more naive than Torch. Duh, he's been in the game far longer than Gravity has. Doesn't mean he wouldn't be focussed on winning. Being tricked by a supervillain isn't really anything new for a superhero, especially not in the Black Death case, as it took him several months in which he earned Gravity's trust, costuming himself as a superhero. But it must be noted that if I remember that scene correctly it was far more powerful when Black Death used it suggesting that he doesn't have the confidence to use his full power.

This also suggests that to pull off the big stuff he needs to be shown he can do it by someone else first.

Not if he wraps himself in a nice handy dandy force field. It only takes one punch anyway. The throwing of walls, boulders, or even just plain bringing the house down on Johnny could serve as a distraction, but also a way to end the match (such as by bringing the castle down).
This is far more likely to hurt gravity than johnny since johnny can simply fly up through the falling debris vapourizing anything that is about to hit him. The same cannot be said about gravity. His forcefields are good, but not (at this stage) enough to hold off large sections of castle doom.

It was a joke, something I thought would be funny to note. Take a breath. And again, Torch is far removed from being a cosmic hero. Silver Surfer? That's a cosmic hero. Thor? That's a cosmic-type hero. Quasar? That's a cosmic hero. The Torch is nowhere near that ballpark. This particular point was dealt with about. I still say that this furter reinforces how street level gravity was at this point.

Which he's done, exactly, when? The Torch is a poseur, the kind of guy that'll play with his opponent. If he has no reason to suspect a threat, he will try and toy with the enemy. In this case, by the time the Torch finally gets the hint of stepping up his game, he'll have been knocked cold by Gravity.

Doubtfull, Johnny's arogant yes, but not stupid. Besides, as this is a competition Johnny will bring his A-Game since he will be looking to win to help reinforce his ego. He'll be looking to win this match. even if it means bringing castle doom down on gravity's head. He doesn't know gravity which will at least bring some level of caution into his strategy.

There are Fantastic Four comics, endorsed by the FF, which would depict the Torch's powers. Heck, there's probably an encyclopedia article about the Torch, detailing some of his feats. Lord knows there'd be enough geeks in the Torch fanclub to do so. The battles of the Fantastic Four are practically always televized, and Gravity will know what Torch is capable of.

Battles that occured on earth yes but that only equates to about a quarter of their fights. With regards the comic book thing...whoops forgot about that one :o But it's still going to have artistic license. Hell with Johnny's ego he'll probably make sure he's written 10x more powerful than he actually is!

Again, there's the geek sites. There's the official publicity packet brought out by the Fantastic Four and so many more venues for Gravity to be able to look up info about the Torch. There's literally a wealth of knowledge before him.

True, but he's an impoverished student. The sites yes but the comics and publicity packs...no. Can't afford them.

Knows Castle Doom too well? He knows the places he's fought in, and the prison he's slept in while captive of Doom. He'd hardly know the extent of Doom's castle, besides from the short time they spent there in Authorative Action, a time in which I doubt he went through the castle, keeping every little bit of the place in his mind. He might have a little advantage, but not much.
As confirmed by phaed he knows this place like the back of his hand. He's also fought there MANY times meaning he'll be ready for many of the traps etc, which gravity won't. If anyone's gonna get hit by doom's defences it's gravity.

And Johnny will never, again, never operate at full power in a match like this. He's a hero, remember?

Not at full power but close, also since he has no idea who gravity is, he won't know he's a hero and as a result will simply see him as an opponent. As this is a contest and gravity can protect himself pretty well with his forcefields his pride will take over and he'll do whathe has to to win

Something that would work against Johnny? Knocking his ass out. Beyond that, it's been shown that he can ward off attacks using his gravity powers, so he should be able to dodge the Torch.

That's incredibly vague, what EXACTLY would he do about columns of flame/fireball's heading in his direction? And what about the posibility that some would be aimed at him and some at the castle bringing large sections of the ceiling down on him. Gravity is new to his powers so flight, a forcefield and deflecting various debris/projectiles is EXTREMELY doubtfull. This is the problem with such inexperienced characters, one or two uses of their powers at a time till they get more confident. I know it sucks that gravity has only made a handful of appearances so far, and I'm sure once beyond is in continuity he'll do much better but for now he still a noob

Johnny has the odd tendency of not sitting back and flinging fireballs at a person. He always has to get up close and personal, even when he's specifically told not to (since the Doom fight in Authorative Action, for one). He has superspeed when being able to fly in open air. In a confined space like the castle, superspeed just means his death.

Yes but he will always leave some kind of gap. He will usually get to a few metres away and then do his fireballs/horizontal collums of flames (not sure on the word for this collumn/beam/not sure...)

Also if he is heading to a wall, unless it's adamantium (doubtfull) he can simply vapourize it, causing yet more debris to fall on gravity weakening him further.

I can grant you this, but I would assume Doom has these kinds of things very handy, in case, y'know, the Fantastic Four attack him?

Doom is far more likely to use magic/weapons/doombots rather than a faucet...

And even using that kind of speed would mean his death, as he races headlong into a wall or into one of Doom's death traps. Superspeed isn't going to be of much use. Besides that, the Torch would allow Gravity a little headstart. Let's be honest here, Torch would be laughing his ass off at the fact this guy is challenging him, and let him do his thing. It's typical reckless Torch.
I think I've covered the superspeed thinbg, he doesn't need to go full speed, just faster than gravity, and any walls he can vapourise. He'll be ready for the traps since he's encountered them MANY times before.

I just want to clear this up once and for all. JOHNNY IS ARROGANT NOT STUPID. He'll be out for the win and the glory that entails meaning a headstart is very doubtfull.

Seconds is all Gravity needs. Powers out and BAM! right in the kisser. Again with the nova flame. You know that attack is lethal and he's used it only in desperate times, right?

And seconds while gravity is searching for a water main is all Johnny needs to take him out, also ater tends to spray out in a straightish line. Johnny is not alergic to water, if just his feet/arm gets hit he can keep burning. You have to douse his body and do it for about 30seconds-1minutes to put him out.

Also, if it's so easy to take him out with water why wasn't hydorman able to take him out when he faced off against the torch and spidey

You're forgetting that he took all of those people on together with the Fantastic Four, and in most of the cases still got his ass beat the first time around. The Torch has never faced a big league supervillain on his own and won.

Yes he was part of a team but he has faced threats at least 10x the level of the villains gravity has faced. That's like saying iron-man can't be considered capable of handling Kang because he usually faces him with the avengers :huh:

Johnny's powers are complex? Are you kidding me? The guy becomes flame and throws fireballs around. That's it.

True but that is how most people will view him, they won't know how hot he can get or how flexible his flame manipulation is.

10 years of experience, pal. Secondly, Johnny has always shown recklessness, even now, and it is always his downfall. It will be again.
Again I say, recklessness does not equal retard. He will see the threat gravity poses and Johnny's experience will make this clear very early on in the match.

Are you under the impression you have some psycho version of the Torch? Burn him badly enough to take him out? This is a 17-year old kid he's facing. He's not going to go that kind of extra mile. Doom? No problem, but this a novice superhero he's facing. "Do what's necessary"? Hell no. Heck, he's not going to take this fight seriously at all, and just when the competition-drive kicks in, gets his ass kicked.

That's the thing, this is not a fight in the traditional sense, this is an opportunity to prove who the best superhero in the marvel universe is. That's like crack to Johnny, his ego is large and sometimes gets in te way, but nothing gets in the way of Johnny doing things to further bolster his ego. He WILL take the fight seriously and do whatever he has to to win.

Once again I will point out, Johnny will know nothing of gravity save for his name. He will not know how old he is, he will not know he's a superhero. Granted he'll not be looking to kill him, just take him out of the match as quickly as possible

The Torch's biggest weakness isn't water.
It's his ego.

For the final time EGO DOES NOT EQUAL STUPIDITY!

WINNER: HUMAN TORCH!

(if you feel this is getting a bit heated let me know, I'm not trying to be offensive and wouldn't want it to be taken that way :up: )

Harlekin

12-17-2006, 05:40 AM

The purpose of that comment was to highlight the level of the enemies he has faced, not his own powers. If that was unclear I apologise.
Tha's cool.

The point is that gravity has only faced off against the likes of the rhino et al whereas johnny has been involved in the majority of MAJOR conflicts that have occured throughout the history of the marvel U. He's used to facing UBER opponents, gravity is not.
And something that I'll get back to later: The Torch has never done so alone.

I still don't see how not having full control over your powers is an advantage. He may pull off big power moves accidentally buttheir focus will be off and will rarely achieve what he intends them to.
It's both an advantage as well as a disadvantage. It leads to more surprising feats of power, and a tendency to lose control, both of which can serve as an advantage. It'd be a win by a fluke, but it would still be a win.

Many cars can do 150mph despite this breaking pretty much every speed limit in the world. The point is not the top speed itself but the better level of acceleration allowing Johnny to zip round astle doom much faster than gravity.
I'll concede that the Torch can more easily manouver through the castle than Gravity can.

But it must be noted that if I remember that scene correctly it was far more powerful when Black Death used it suggesting that he doesn't have the confidence to use his full power.
Of course it was more powerful. Gravity didn't want to kill Black Death, just knock him out. That's up to intrepetation of the scene though. I think that if he pushed himself, Gravity can definitely attain that level of destruction.

This also suggests that to pull off the big stuff he needs to be shown he can do it by someone else first.
Considering everything but that application of his powers he thought of himself, I'd say no. I still consider picking up the Rhino and throwing him away a pretty big thing for a 17-year old guy who's inexperienced in his powers.

This is far more likely to hurt gravity than johnny since johnny can simply fly up through the falling debris vapourizing anything that is about to hit him. The same cannot be said about gravity. His forcefields are good, but not (at this stage) enough to hold off large sections of castle doom.
Johnny wouldn't be able to burn through everything, and Gravity would make sure not to destroy the walls around him, but those around Johnny, of course. He's no idiot, and would try and pull this off from a little distance.

Doubtfull, Johnny's arogant yes, but not stupid. Besides, as this is a competition Johnny will bring his A-Game since he will be looking to win to help reinforce his ego. He'll be looking to win this match. even if it means bringing castle doom down on gravity's head. He doesn't know gravity which will at least bring some level of caution into his strategy.
I never said Johnny was stupid. I said he was reckless. Reckless mixed with arrogance means he's not going to take this seriously at all. Sure, he'll be looking to win, but as has been shown so many times before, his ego gets in the way, and he likes to toy with his opponent before.

Battles that occured on earth yes but that only equates to about a quarter of their fights. With regards the comic book thing...whoops forgot about that one :o But it's still going to have artistic license. Hell with Johnny's ego he'll probably make sure he's written 10x more powerful than he actually is!
Something Reed wouldn't allow. Besides that, that would actually be an advantage to Gravity. Overestimating the Torch's capabilities means he'll try and get this over as quick as possible.

True, but he's an impoverished student. The sites yes but the comics and publicity packs...no. Can't afford them.
There's this fun little thing called downloading.

As confirmed by phaed he knows this place like the back of his hand. He's also fought there MANY times meaning he'll be ready for many of the traps etc, which gravity won't. If anyone's gonna get hit by doom's defences it's gravity.
I still contest the "by the back of his hand" thing, since they've never fought in the entirety of the castle, and most of his time was spent in the castle would be spent in a jail cell.

Not at full power but close, also since he has no idea who gravity is, he won't know he's a hero and as a result will simply see him as an opponent. As this is a contest and gravity can protect himself pretty well with his forcefields his pride will take over and he'll do whathe has to to win
To borrow a page from your book: Johnny isn't stupid. He'll look up what he can find about this Gravity kid and find out he's a newbie superhero who is apparently a mutant (he's not). He's not going to think this guy is a villain or anything.

That's incredibly vague, what EXACTLY would he do about columns of flame/fireball's heading in his direction?
Use pieces of the castle to take the blow for him, or smash his way through a wall as to avoid them.

Yes but he will always leave some kind of gap. He will usually get to a few metres away and then do his fireballs/horizontal collums of flames (not sure on the word for this collumn/beam/not sure...)
I know the attack you're talking about. And I've often seen Johnny trying to actually go in and land a hit. That's the kind of person he is.

Also if he is heading to a wall, unless it's adamantium (doubtfull) he can simply vapourize it, causing yet more debris to fall on gravity weakening him further.
Gravity can ward them off much more easily. Heck, if he panics, he's probably even more likely to be capable of doing so.

Doom is far more likely to use magic/weapons/doombots rather than a faucet...
Such as weapons that use water...

I just want to clear this up once and for all. JOHNNY IS ARROGANT NOT STUPID. He'll be out for the win and the glory that entails meaning a headstart is very doubtfull.
Again, I never imply arrogance leads to stupidity, but Johnny has been shown to be extremely reckless and give his opponent a "headstart" so to speak. Defeating his opponent then would be even more food for his ego.

Also, if it's so easy to take him out with water why wasn't hydorman able to take him out when he faced off against the torch and spidey
If you're referring to the issues after the Authorative Action arc, you'll note that Hydroman did douse Johnny's flame and could've knocked his ass out, but he was trying to flee.

Yes he was part of a team but he has faced threats at least 10x the level of the villains gravity has faced. That's like saying iron-man can't be considered capable of handling Kang because he usually faces him with the avengers :huh:
But y'know, Iron Man wouldn't be capable of facing a guy like Kang or Ultron or Korvac on his own. If it takes an entire team to beat someone, it's only logical that one member of that team couldn't take that villain out on his own. There are few moments where Johnny has been able to take out a villain on his own. You'll also note that in most fights the Fantastic Four have, Johnny's the first one to go down.

True but that is how most people will view him, they won't know how hot he can get or how flexible his flame manipulation is.
He won't be getting any hotter than his average temperature, and I don't see how his manipulation of flame would be effective here.

Again I say, recklessness does not equal retard. He will see the threat gravity poses and Johnny's experience will make this clear very early on in the match.
Again I say, I never said that. Johnny has shown however that he'll often ignore his experience in favor of boosting his ego.

That's the thing, this is not a fight in the traditional sense, this is an opportunity to prove who the best superhero in the marvel universe is. That's like crack to Johnny, his ego is large and sometimes gets in te way, but nothing gets in the way of Johnny doing things to further bolster his ego. He WILL take the fight seriously and do whatever he has to to win.
Chances are big he'd be indignant about facing some newbie superhero and try to humor Gravity. Which is his big mistake. Yes, this is a contest he wants to win, but he's always shown a particular weakness of giving his opponent an edge so that he can still try and beat them, something that feeds his ego even more. This is basic Human Torch history.

Also you yourself have said that Gravity wouldn't pose much of a threat. I see no reason why Johnny wouldn't think the same way, which is his downfall.

Once again I will point out, Johnny will know nothing of gravity save for his name. He will not know how old he is, he will not know he's a superhero. Granted he'll not be looking to kill him, just take him out of the match as quickly as possible
And now Johnny is being portrayed as an idiot. He would most assuredly look up info on Gravity and come up with a few obscure articles about a kid that defeated the Rhino called Gravity and is supposedly a mutant.

(if you feel this is getting a bit heated let me know, I'm not trying to be offensive and wouldn't want it to be taken that way :up: )
Don't worry, and I wouldn't want that either. :up: I fear we may be going around in circles a bit though.

WINNER=GRAVITY

Phaedrus45

12-18-2006, 12:54 PM

Ares vs. Ranark The Ravager:

First, onto the bios:

Ares:

Ares possesses all of the conventional superhuman physical attributes common to the Olympians....Ares is considerably stronger than the vast majority of his race. Among the Olympians, his strength is equaled only by his uncles, Poseidon and Hades, and is exceeded only by his father, Zeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus), and his half-brother, Hercules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules). Ares' body generates almost no fatigue toxins during physical activity, granting him almost limitless superhuman stamina. He is also immortal; he doesn't age, is immune to all terrestrial diseases and poisons and while he can be wounded, most wounds he will receive will heal quickly. Olympian godhood also gives him other, more rarely used abilities; he can walk among humans unseen and possess any mortal, like he once possessed Erik Masterson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Masterson).
He is, as fits his station as the Olympian God of War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War), an impressive fighter of tremendous skill and an expert in many (if not all) weapons. In his earlier appearances, he preferred ancient weapons like axes and spears, but his most recent appearance shows him favoring a mixture of ancient and modern weapons, like guns.

Ranark The Ravager:

Ranark has a variety of abilities which are mystical in nature.
Ranark, in his usual form, is very large (approximately 20 feet in height) and exceedingly strong (he has been seen to easily lift a bus). He is extremely resistant to physical damage, and can withstand blows from the Thing and Sasquatch. He can fly, if relatively slowly, and can "tunnel" through the earth as easily as flying.... Ranark also possesses a wide variety of shamanic powers. He has not been seen to use more than one of these other abilities simultaneously- unlike the above abilities, these apparently require some concentration or attention on Ranark's part.
Ranark can control the actions of individuals against their will. He can read a person's mind, seeing their memories through their own eyes. He can inflict tremendous mental pain on an individual. However, Ranark has not been seen to use these mental abilities on more than one individual at a time.
Ranark can change his own size, can create a personal force field to protect himself, and claims he can "assume any size, shape, or substance" that he desires. He has been seen to change into a living whirlwind.
Ranark claims he can "bend the earth, the wind, and the fire to my very will!" He can controls plants and plant growth to create enormous vines. He can cause earthquakes by touching the ground. He can create giant earthen hands, capable of grabbing and holding people. He can conjure storms and control the weather. He can absorb (and return) electro-magnetic bolts. Ranark can also fire blasts of physical energy from his hands.

Ranark won't be able to increase his size or tunnel under the earth in Castle Doom. That alone is already a big detriment.

I want to point out that while he's a very good shaman, Ranark can only do one power at a time, and it does take concentration, and while fighting Ares, concentration is something that many people simply don't have. After all, Ares have taken out entire armies by himself.

While Ranark is resistant to physical damage, Ares is much more powerful than Thing or Sasquatch. As mentioned, the only Olympians more powerful than Ares is Zeus and Hercules. (But, even they had to rely on Ares, because of his "crude" and "dishonorable" nature.)

With both character's abilities to take over the minds of others, I would guess that these powers would negate each other's ability to do so.

Many of Ranark's Shaman abilities are the same types of abilities that Ares has fought before, and he'd know how to handle them. Plus, being in Castle Doom really limits Ranark.

Basically, the type of heroes Ranark has faced before don't have the "crude and dishonorable nature" of Ares. Ares won't hold back. He's ruthless, and simply put, he's faced much worse odds. He could easily hunt Ranark; and, with a variety of weapons he could choose to bring with him, he'd slaughter Ranark. Again, Ranark needs concentration to perform many of his abilities, and many of these abilities won't be very effective in a limited environment, like Castle Doom. Ranark might get a few good hits on Ares; but, Ares is very resilient to injury, and he'd just get right back up and finish off his opponent.

Winner = Ares

hippy fascist

12-18-2006, 03:58 PM

Tha's cool.

And something that I'll get back to later: The Torch has never done so alone. Whereas Gravity has never done so, period

It's both an advantage as well as a disadvantage. It leads to more surprising feats of power, and a tendency to lose control, both of which can serve as an advantage. It'd be a win by a fluke, but it would still be a win.
If anything this favours me. It simply means gravity would have to fluke it win this. How likely this is will come down to the voters

I'll concede that the Torch can more easily manouver through the castle than Gravity can. Given the number of traps littered around the place this is going to be a major advantage for the torch. :yay:

Of course it was more powerful. Gravity didn't want to kill Black Death, just knock him out. That's up to intrepetation of the scene though. I think that if he pushed himself, Gravity can definitely attain that level of destruction. But your assertation that torch wouldn't want to hurt gravity equally works the other way. Christ torch is probably one of gravity's role-models meaning he's going to have a major hard time with doing ANYTHING to hurt him.

Considering everything but that application of his powers he thought of himself, I'd say no. I still consider picking up the Rhino and throwing him away a pretty big thing for a 17-year old guy who's inexperienced in his powers. Yes it's a good application of his powers but it has absolutely no bearing on this fight. That was a brawl, this will not be.

Johnny wouldn't be able to burn through everything, and Gravity would make sure not to destroy the walls around him, but those around Johnny, of course. He's no idiot, and would try and pull this off from a little distance. This is where the experience factor comes in. Johnny will know what he can and can't destroy meaning he'll dodge anything he can't simply vapourise, this will also be helped by his speed.

Secondly the issue of gravity using targeted blasts, doubtfull. Once again the heat of combat and his lack of experience wil make it very difficult for him to be this accurate. When it comes to falling debris johnny will easily be able to get out of the way, whereas for gravity it will be much tougher.

I never said Johnny was stupid. I said he was reckless. Reckless mixed with arrogance means he's not going to take this seriously at all. Sure, he'll be looking to win, but as has been shown so many times before, his ego gets in the way, and he likes to toy with his opponent before. Refering to your point about johnny having moral qualms about this fight. He will not be toying with a hero.. If gravity was a villain yes but against another he will view it assimply having a job to do and look to get it done ASAP

Also while recklessness isn't also a good thing, it can sometimes be the only way to get something. The guy that takes all the risks may be the person who screws up every now and then but they are also the people that pull off the victorys that a more cautious person wouldn't be capable of.

Something Reed wouldn't allow. Besides that, that would actually be an advantage to Gravity. Overestimating the Torch's capabilities means he'll try and get this over as quick as possible. Fair point, scratch that point.

There's this fun little thing called downloading. true but he only has a 24 hours and probably won't be able to use the university's computers since they tend to ban that kind of thing. As an impoverished student he probably only has a 56k connection to work from at best. (given when the book was written)

I still contest the "by the back of his hand" thing, since they've never fought in the entirety of the castle, and most of his time was spent in the castle would be spent in a jail cell. Remember authoratative action.He lived there, he's going to have a good idea of the lay out. Hell first thing he did upon moving in was probably to fly round the halls checking things out. Also he has fought there MANY times in MANY different locations. The biggest advantage will be knowledge of the traps/defenses. Gravity will be going in blind by comparison

To borrow a page from your book: Johnny isn't stupid. He'll look up what he can find about this Gravity kid and find out he's a newbie superhero who is apparently a mutant (he's not). He's not going to think this guy is a villain or anything. debatable, to borrow a page from your book, johnnyis arrogant. It will go something along the lines of "gravity? never heard of him and as a result don't care."

Use pieces of the castle to take the blow for him, or smash his way through a wall as to avoid them. These are BIG feats to pull off. Accuracy will be minimal for gravity. He'll slip up at some point and something will get through. Also since this requires a HUGE effort at his current level he will be unshielded meaning only one has to slip through. Finally many of johnny's projectiles will simply burn through any piece of the castle he uses.

I know the attack you're talking about. And I've often seen Johnny trying to actually go in and land a hit. That's the kind of person he is. Debatable

Gravity can ward them off much more easily. Heck, if he panics, he's probably even more likely to be capable of doing so. Not really, most of the times I've seen gravity use his powers it has required serious concentration and a level head, panic will cause his powers to become unpredictable and therefore unvocussed/uncontrollable. This is a definate negative for gravity.

Such as weapons that use water...
First he has to find them, secondly doom probably booby traps all weaponry in the castle. A simple magical booby trap could be disarmed by doom in a split second, but not by gravity.

Again, I never imply arrogance leads to stupidity, but Johnny has been shown to be extremely reckless and give his opponent a "headstart" so to speak. Defeating his opponent then would be even more food for his ego.

He'd do this with a villain yes, but not a hero.

If you're referring to the issues after the Authorative Action arc, you'll note that Hydroman did douse Johnny's flame and could've knocked his ass out, but he was trying to flee. And gravity is supposed to recreate this whilst shielding himself, flying etc. It's just to much for him to do.

But y'know, Iron Man wouldn't be capable of facing a guy like Kang or Ultron or Korvac on his own. If it takes an entire team to beat someone, it's only logical that one member of that team couldn't take that villain out on his own. There are few moments where Johnny has been able to take out a villain on his own. You'll also note that in most fights the Fantastic Four have, Johnny's the first one to go down. Please tell me you're not comparing gravity to Korvac/ultron/kang. The point is even as part of a team Johnny has faced opponents ten times more powerful than gravity and lived to tell the tale. While he has sometimes been defeated by these opponents addmitedly, gravity is not in their league so these experiences will still put Johnny in a far better position.

He won't be getting any hotter than his average temperature, and I don't see how his manipulation of flame would be effective here.

There are many sources of flame aroudn castle doom, this means Johnny can be attacking from multiple angles simultaneously. Gravity may be able to defend what's coming from the front but not when he's getting attacked from behind at the same time.

Again I say, I never said that. Johnny has shown however that he'll often ignore his experience in favor of boosting his ego. Experience build subconciouss defences like reflexes. He won't be able to ignore it, he will simply react.

Chances are big he'd be indignant about facing some newbie superhero and try to humor Gravity. Which is his big mistake. Yes, this is a contest he wants to win, but he's always shown a particular weakness of giving his opponent an edge so that he can still try and beat them, something that feeds his ego even more. This is basic Human Torch history. Maybe early on in his career but Johnny has matured over the years to a certain extent.

Also you yourself have said that Gravity wouldn't pose much of a threat. I see no reason why Johnny wouldn't think the same way, which is his downfall.Never said that. Just said that he wasn't in Johnny's league, anyone can pose a threat. johnny will want to win more than he'll want to showboat, yes he may look cool for five minutes but ultimately the prize is the ULTIMATE ego-boost.

And now Johnny is being portrayed as an idiot. He would most assuredly look up info on Gravity and come up with a few obscure articles about a kid that defeated the Rhino called Gravity and is supposedly a mutant. I'll leave this up to the voters to decide

Don't worry, and I wouldn't want that either. :up: I fear we may be going around in circles a bit though.
Agreed :csad:

WINNER: HUMAN TORCH!

I probably won't have time to reply tomorrow so I wish you luck and thank you for an enjoyable and thought provoking debate :up:

Harlekin

12-19-2006, 01:01 AM

REBUTTAL: Gravity vs Human Torch

Some quick last thoughts that don't just repeat what I've been saying. I also want to thank you for a good match, Hippy. I doubt I'll be to get anything in after this before voting.

If anything this favours me. It simply means gravity would have to fluke it win this. How likely this is will come down to the voters
No, the fluke thing simply adds onto his chances of winning.

But your assertation that torch wouldn't want to hurt gravity equally works the other way. Christ torch is probably one of gravity's role-models meaning he's going to have a major hard time with doing ANYTHING to hurt him.
It's a good point, but it could also lead into Gravity wanting to have to get this over as fast as possible. Another advantage.

When it comes to falling debris johnny will easily be able to get out of the way, whereas for gravity it will be much tougher.
This I can conceed too.

Refering to your point about johnny having moral qualms about this fight. He will not be toying with a hero.. If gravity was a villain yes but against another he will view it assimply having a job to do and look to get it done ASAP
Except his competitive nature has shown otherwise. When faced with somebody such as Spidey, he shows his arrogance in giving the webhead a head start.

true but he only has a 24 hours and probably won't be able to use the university's computers since they tend to ban that kind of thing. As an impoverished student he probably only has a 56k connection to work from at best. (given when the book was written)
Meh, you'd be surprised at the resources we can pull from our asses these days (although I'm less impoverished than Gravity).

Hell first thing he did upon moving in was probably to fly round the halls checking things out.
Something I severely doubt. He was more busy with questioning Reed and following him everywhere than to go about and explore the place, which I wouldn't see him doing anyway.

Gravity will be going in blind by comparison
True, but there's also the idea that Doom would have changed his castle's layout by now.

debatable, to borrow a page from your book, johnnyis arrogant. It will go something along the lines of "gravity? never heard of him and as a result don't care."
Which would just make Johnny stupid, and I know you don't want to portray him as such. He's matured enough to take the time to look up info. He's got 24 hours for christ' sake.

These are BIG feats to pull off. Accuracy will be minimal for gravity. He'll slip up at some point and something will get through. Also since this requires a HUGE effort at his current level he will be unshielded meaning only one has to slip through. Finally many of johnny's projectiles will simply burn through any piece of the castle he uses.
Which is exactly why he'll try and knock out Johnny out as fast as possible, and he will.

Please tell me you're not comparing gravity to Korvac/ultron/kang.
I'm not.

The point is even as part of a team Johnny has faced opponents ten times more powerful than gravity and lived to tell the tale. While he has sometimes been defeated by these opponents addmitedly, gravity is not in their league so these experiences will still put Johnny in a far better position.
Sometimes? Who is usually the first one of the FF to get his ass kicked? Johnny. It gives him more experience against more powerful opponents, but he only ever did that with a team anyway.

Maybe early on in his career but Johnny has matured over the years to a certain extent.
Which is what you're contradicting yourself on.

Never said that. Just said that he wasn't in Johnny's league, anyone can pose a threat. johnny will want to win more than he'll want to showboat, yes he may look cool for five minutes but ultimately the prize is the ULTIMATE ego-boost.
I say he'll want to showboat first. Heck, there's quite a bit of proof of that.

WINNER=GRAVITY

hippy fascist

12-19-2006, 12:49 PM

Some quick last thoughts that don't just repeat what I've been saying. I also want to thank you for a good match, Hippy. I doubt I'll be to get anything in after this before voting.

I'm bored and I've got five minutes so might as well get the last word! :cwink:

No, the fluke thing simply adds onto his chances of winning.
Not really since the probability of said fluke occuring is minimal, if he needs the fluke to win that means he has a low probability of winning in the first place, further reinforcing my point that his lack of experience will be his undoing.

It's a good point, but it could also lead into Gravity wanting to have to get this over as fast as possible. Another advantage.
Not really, mixed feelings about the match from the get go will cause gravity problems. Gravity is young and new to te heroing game, this can only be a negative for gravity as while punishing evil is easy, attacking someone you admire is always hard.

This I can conceed too.

Thank you (HUGSIES!):yay:

Except his competitive nature has shown otherwise. When faced with somebody such as Spidey, he shows his arrogance in giving the webhead a head start. Yes but being beaten by spidey would not be something Johnny would be excessively ashamed of, he's a tough opponent and at that point a seasoned veteran. If johnny lost it would be acceptable. To lose to an unknown would be completely unacceptable for Johnny. His fear of the shame of such a loss will far outweigh the ego boost of giving him a head start. The more I think about it, the more I think Johnny will do everything in his power to win this.

Meh, you'd be surprised at the resources we can pull from our asses these days (although I'm less impoverished than Gravity). Exactly, these days. The gravity mini was a couple of years ago and technology has moved along quite radiply during that time. Torrent sites( I assume that's what you're reffering to) were barely at the beta stages during this period meaning limited torrents to download, if he is even aware of the service and has the hardware to download it at all. Johnny has all the resources of the fantastic four. Another major plus point for Johnny

Something I severely doubt. He was more busy with questioning Reed and following him everywhere than to go about and explore the place, which I wouldn't see him doing anyway. There are many scenes in that arc where reed was alone or Johnny simply wasn't in "shot" (if you can call it that) he had to be doing something during that time. While he's no genius he is naturally curious and also it wouldn't surprise me if johnny (being the kind of guy that he is) went round defacing various bits and pieces of doom's property. If you suddenly found yourself in control of the lair of your arch nemesis, wouln't you take a look around. If nothing else it is just for te purpose of boosting his ego through the "ha ha, now all your stuff is mine so lets see what you've got" principle.

True, but there's also the idea that Doom would have changed his castle's layout by now. To a certain extent but that would be limited since changing the fundamental structure of the building would be tricky and would have been mentioned at some point due to the sheer scale of the construction project required. Also the main bonus for Johnny is being familiar with, if not the exact nature of them, the kind of traps to expectand how theytend to be triggered. Gravity will have no such information. This presents a MASSIVE advantage to Johnny. Traps designed to take care of sue rule out gravity's forcefields, traps designed to cage the thing rule out his strength, traps designed to take out johnny will impede gravity's flight. Johnny can be affected by one set out of four whereas gravity will suffer thanks to 3 kinds. Johnny will be aware of and able to evade those destined for him. Gravity on the other hand won't know what hit him.

Which would just make Johnny stupid, and I know you don't want to portray him as such. He's matured enough to take the time to look up info. He's got 24 hours for christ' sake.

I'll concede this point and use it instead to bolster my point that Johnny has matured through 40 years of fantastic four issues to the point where he is still reckless but knowhere near as much as he used to be.

Which is exactly why he'll try and knock out Johnny out as fast as possible, and he will.

Again, I think Johhny's just to fast and maneuverable for gravity to get this kind of opportunity, if you can provide any scans of gravity using his super strength in mid flight I'd love to see them as Johnny will not be setting one foot on the ground. That is not what the previously mentioned forty years worth of issues would suggest

I'm not.

Fair enough :up:

Sometimes? Who is usually the first one of the FF to get his ass kicked? Johnny. It gives him more experience against more powerful opponents, but he only ever did that with a team anyway.

This is where sheer weight of encounters comes in, if gravity had been around for as long as Johnny he'd have lost a fair few times too. With only five issues to go off of course he's barely lost any fights, origin stories are usually used to build a characters profile up before realeasing them into the marvel U. If you count the number of screw ups vs rousing victories I'm pretty sure Johnny's victory column far outweighs his defeats.

Which is what you're contradicting yourself on.

Fair enough, I'll admit he's become more experinenced and mature over the years and drop that point

I say he'll want to showboat first. Heck, there's quite a bit of proof of that.

See my earlier point in this post about the bitte taste of defeat at the hands of an unknown

Johnny has

More experience
More control over his powers
MUCH more knowledge of the location
MUCH more knowledge of the traps/defences.Much more of everything really :yay:

I love the character and gravity won't be an easy opponent but I think Johnny has the skills to win this, heck I don't think he'd be able to live with himself if he didn't

WINNER: HUMAN TORCH!

Harlekin

12-19-2006, 02:15 PM

REBUTTAL: Gravity vs Human Torch
I'm bored and I've got five minutes so might as well get the last word! :cwink:
In before voting starts!

Not really since the probability of said fluke occuring is minimal, if he needs the fluke to win that means he has a low probability of winning in the first place, further reinforcing my point that his lack of experience will be his undoing.
Let's break this down:
-The chance of a fluke: A good one, because he's inexperienced.
-The chance of winning: A good one, since he's got some awesome power.
-Combination of the two: Winnage.

Not really, mixed feelings about the match from the get go will cause gravity problems. Gravity is young and new to te heroing game, this can only be a negative for gravity as while punishing evil is easy, attacking someone you admire is always hard.
Although I'd concede Gravity having mixed feelings about this match, I think he has enough of a focus to try and get this match over as soon as possible.

Yes but being beaten by spidey would not be something Johnny would be excessively ashamed of, he's a tough opponent and at that point a seasoned veteran.
Johnny wouldn't be able to live it down if he lost to Spidey.

If johnny lost it would be acceptable. To lose to an unknown would be completely unacceptable for Johnny. His fear of the shame of such a loss will far outweigh the ego boost of giving him a head start. The more I think about it, the more I think Johnny will do everything in his power to win this.
This is really about what people think of Johnny's character. I myself believe that he'd sooner give a headstart than not. That's totally up to the voters though.

Exactly, these days. The gravity mini was a couple of years ago and technology has moved along quite radiply during that time. Torrent sites( I assume that's what you're reffering to) were barely at the beta stages during this period meaning limited torrents to download, if he is even aware of the service and has the hardware to download it at all. Johnny has all the resources of the fantastic four. Another major plus point for Johnny
Gravity came out in 2005. Torrents were not in the beta stage at that point. Johnny has the resources, but if I believe you, he wouldn't use them anyway. I say, he would, but he wouldn't get more than a single article over Gravity's first exploit as a hero.

There are many scenes in that arc where reed was alone or Johnny simply wasn't in "shot" (if you can call it that) he had to be doing something during that time. [...] If nothing else it is just for te purpose of boosting his ego through the "ha ha, now all your stuff is mine so lets see what you've got" principle.
But I doubt he had any strategic tactic in mind and would keep it all stored in his memory. It isn't like Johnny has photographic memory anyway.

To a certain extent but that would be limited since changing the fundamental structure of the building would be tricky and would have been mentioned at some point due to the sheer scale of the construction project required.
We've seen Doom only sparingly since he came back. And he could quite easily do so with his science and magic powers.

Johnny can be affected by one set out of four whereas gravity will suffer thanks to 3 kinds. Johnny will be aware of and able to evade those destined for him. Gravity on the other hand won't know what hit him.
Then again, if we include traps, we also include Doombots. Yes, by rules they do not attack, but I would assume that once provoked they would, and they'd sure as hell focus on Johnny. I didn't want to mention this before, but it's something that gives Gravity a definitive advantage. Johnny only needs to hit one Doombot by accident, and they're going to focus on taking him down. That makes Gravity's chances of winning around 100%.

Again, I think Johhny's just to fast and maneuverable for gravity to get this kind of opportunity, if you can provide any scans of gravity using his super strength in mid flight I'd love to see them as Johnny will not be setting one foot on the ground. That is not what the previously mentioned forty years worth of issues would suggest
He doesn't need to be on the ground to engage in combat. Johnny has always had the tendency to get in close, yes, while flying, but getting in close anyway. I sadly have no scans to provide because I can't scan my Gravity trade without messing it up, and the contest isn't worth that. He seems to be off the ground though when knocking out Black Death.

If you count the number of screw ups vs rousing victories I'm pretty sure Johnny's victory column far outweighs his defeats.
Inevitably, since the Fantastic Four and most heroes suffer from Rocky syndrome. Individual battles by the Torch though, I'm not so sure.

Great match again.

WINNER=GRAVITY

hippy fascist

12-19-2006, 02:27 PM

Then again, if we include traps, we also include Doombots. Yes, by rules they do not attack, but I would assume that once provoked they would, and they'd sure as hell focus on Johnny. I didn't want to mention this before, but it's something that gives Gravity a definitive advantage. Johnny only needs to hit one Doombot by accident, and they're going to focus on taking him down. That makes Gravity's chances of winning around 100%.

The only point I feel I need to rebutt.

Since johnny's in the air the chance of him hitting one is minimal, also they'd be powered down at this point and would need to be activated. Neither has the skills or desire to do this so they're really a non factor.

Finally johnny has way too much control over his abilities to allow that to happen, if anyone's likely to his them it's gravity and I'd imagine they'd be programmed to attack whoever attacked them.

WINNER: JOHNNY STORM!

hippy fascist

12-19-2006, 02:51 PM

summation (forgot to add this to my last post)

Johnny has better control over his powers
He knows the location and the pitfalls associated with it
At this stage at least, he's more powerful
He's faster and more agile
And has a lifetime's worth of combat experience compared to gravity's couple of weeks

WINNER: JOHNNY STORM!

Harlekin

12-19-2006, 03:16 PM

I'm not going to repeat myself.

WINNER=GRAVITY

Well, beyond this one anyway. ;)

Phaedrus45

12-19-2006, 04:15 PM

Voting May Begin!!!

(Remember, you must read through all of this weeks debates before voting. The debates should be the largest percentage of reason for the way you vote; but, they do not have to be the sole reason for your decision.)

hippy fascist

12-19-2006, 04:48 PM

Joseph( Overpowered, this is magneto x 10)
Harvest( The guy can bascially jack into computers with his mind meaning he'd be able to spot the failsafes)
Aries(you debate you win)
Human Torch( Close but I think he had the better debate :p)

kytrigger

12-19-2006, 05:02 PM

Ares
Joseph
Kid Omega (I don't think Harvest is good enough to hack into all of Doom's computers without some sort of bad effects)
Human Torch (really close, and I actually think that the location hurts Johnny more than helps him, but Gravity's inexperience lets Johnny take this one.)

wiegeabo

12-19-2006, 06:02 PM

Ares (should be a good match though)
Joseph (if hecan keep his distance)
Kid Omega
Gravity

Phaedrus45

12-19-2006, 06:14 PM

*Ares

*Kid Omega

*Human Torch - (Great debate! I almost went with Gravity. Anyway, I just want to say: a) I never said Johnny would know Castle Doom like the "back of his hand." I just said he'd be very familiar with it. Just want to clarify. b) I think Gravity would be star-struck. c) In the event I can go either way, I usually give it to experience....but, I almost voted for Gravity. Too bad he couldn't fight a less experienced fighter.)

*Fu Manchu - (I do remember reading the old Shang-Chi comics, and prep-time totally works to Fu's advantage. This is really one tough cookie to beat. Plus, he could use quite a few items in Castle Doom, as his old abodes are very similiar.)

hippy fascist

12-19-2006, 07:07 PM

Results so far:

Human torch is beating Gravity 3-1
Joseph is beating Fu Manchu 3-1
Kid Omega is beating Harvest 3-1
Ares is beating Ranark the ravager 4-0

DarkHellRider

12-20-2006, 12:44 AM

Joseph
Harvest
Aries
Human Torch

Harlekin

12-20-2006, 12:49 AM

Ares
Kid Omega - I also doubt Harvest would be able to so easily hack into Doom's computers.
Gravity
Fu Manchu - I think the hypnotise thing just works too much in his favor.

Ahura Mazda

12-20-2006, 08:14 AM

Ares - eventhough both Neptune and Pluto are more powerful then him ;)
Harvest - his array of powers would be too much I think
Torch - great debate and I think he would be willing to use the nova flame which he did against the Hulk
Fu Manchu - well I just think as Jospeh woul not go for mass destruction he would be vulnerable to a guy that just needs to look him in the eye to win

WOLVERINE25TH

12-20-2006, 10:02 AM

Gravity
Joseph
Omega
Ares

Darren Daring

12-20-2006, 12:26 PM

Human
Joseph
Kid Omega
Ares

Phaedrus45

12-20-2006, 12:48 PM

Results so far:

Human torch is currently beating Gravity 6-3
Joseph is currently beating Fu Manchu 6-3
Kid Omega is currently beating Harvest 6-3
Ares is currently beating Ranark The Ravager 9-0

Hellstormer

12-20-2006, 02:38 PM

Gravity
Joseph
Kid Omega
Ares

Iceman

12-20-2006, 06:25 PM

Human Torch - I don't actually think this would be as close as most seem to think. Torch is arrogant but he's so much more experienced and his powers are on a different level. Add to that his knowledge of the location and I can't see how he could lose.
Fu Manchu - despite Joseph's huge power levels, he wouldn't know of Fu Manchu's hypnotic powers and this could be his downfall.
Harvest - it comes down to whether Harvest can influence Doom's computers and I think he has a chance.
Ares - titanic battle but Ares is the God of War for a very good reason.

JewishHobbit

12-20-2006, 11:27 PM

Human torch
Joseph
Harvest
Ares

Phaedrus45

12-21-2006, 10:49 AM

Final Results:

Human torch beat Gravity 8-4
Joseph beat Fu Manchu 8-4
Kid Omega beat Harvest 7-5
Ares beat Ranark The Ravager 12-0

wiegeabo

12-21-2006, 10:51 AM

Final Results:

Human torch beat Gravity 8-4
Joseph beat Fu Manchu 8-4
Kid Omega beat Harvest 67-5
Ares beat Ranark The Ravager 12-0

67-5!?! :eek:

I call shenanigans! ;) :p

JewishHobbit

12-21-2006, 10:51 AM

Wow... Kid Omega just took a giant leap in votes! :p

wiegeabo

12-21-2006, 10:52 AM

Wow... Kid Omega just took a giant leap in votes! :p

Damn mind control. Making people vote for him. :mad:

hippy fascist

12-21-2006, 10:55 AM

excellent match harlekin, you were indeed a worthy opponent :up:

I have to admit that if I ws neutral I would have voted for gravity :o

JewishHobbit

12-21-2006, 11:06 AM

Damn mind control. Making people vote for him. :mad:

Breaking the third wall is obviously against the rules... Kid Omega is disqualified. Congradulations Harvest.

Phaedrus45

12-21-2006, 11:36 AM

ha ha, bloody ha :whatever:

what a bunch of comedians we have here.

Harlekin

12-21-2006, 11:42 AM

HARLEKIN SMASH! :mad:

Nah, great match Hippy. You did well, and the Torch deserved it. If it weren't for this little match, I wouldn't have given Gravity a snowball's chance in hell. :p

hippy fascist

12-21-2006, 11:46 AM

HARLEKIN SMASH! :mad:

Nah, great match Hippy. You did well, and the Torch deserved it. If it weren't for this little match, I wouldn't have given Gravity a snowball's chance in hell. :p

There was a way you could have taken him out easily and I just spent the whole debate praying you didn't work it out...

Torch needs oxygen for his powers to work. Wrap him in a forcefield bubble and suddenly his oxygen would burn out in seconds rendering him harmless. Whether he could pull it off is debatable but I'm just glad it never came up :ninja:

Harlekin

12-21-2006, 11:51 AM

Heh, I actually did think of that, but I figured I couldn't possibly be able to debate that convincingly. We've never seen him do anything like a forcefield bubble that localized, and although I haven't read Beyond yet, he's never made a forcefield bubble at all.

hippy fascist

12-21-2006, 11:57 AM

Harlekin

12-21-2006, 12:15 PM

League of Losers wouldn't count because of its alternate reality status. Sure, it showed a few things Gravity could be capable of, but certainly not yet at the end of his mini. Besides, I don't recall him doing anything beyond what he was shown capable of anyway. I might be wrong though.

Damn, maybe I should've broke that one out. Oh well.

hippy fascist

12-21-2006, 12:17 PM

Iceman

12-21-2006, 05:41 PM

Torch needs oxygen for his powers to work. Wrap him in a forcefield bubble and suddenly his oxygen would burn out in seconds rendering him harmless. Whether he could pull it off is debatable but I'm just glad it never came up :ninja:Whoever's facing Torch next take note :ninja:

Phaedrus45

12-29-2006, 11:19 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg

BRACKET 1,

Match 21:

Psylocke (TRIGGER) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/psylocke.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_psylocke2.jpg

vs.

Diamond Lil (MIDNIGHT ICE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Lil)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_d_lil2.jpg

Match 22:

Siena Blaze (WOLVERINE25TH) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/blaze.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_blaze.jpg

vs.

Charles Xavier (DARKHELLRIDER) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/profx.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_profx.jpg

Phaedrus45

12-29-2006, 12:24 PM

BRACKET 2,

Match 21:

Hellion - Julian (WOLVERINE25TH) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellion)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_HellionJulianKeller.jpg

vs.

Bloodaxe (PHAEDRUS45) bio (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Bloodaxe)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_bio-bloodaxe.jpg

Match 22:

Vector - U-Foes (DARKHELLRIDER) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_vector.gif

vs.

Darkhawk (HARLEKIN) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkhawk)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Darkhawk.jpg

Phaedrus45

12-29-2006, 12:39 PM

LOCATION:

Ego, the Living Planet:

Known Superhuman Powers: The living planet Ego has been called a "bioverse." Every part of its substance, including its atmosphere, is "alive" inasmuch as it is animated and controlled by the consciousness of Ego. The exact composition of Ego is unknown, but much of the planet's surface, at least, seems to be composed of organic molecules. The planet possesses various internal features which have analogues to parts of living Earth-based organisms. For example, its interior contains tunnels which have been compared to arteries, and the center of Ego's consciousness resides in a brain-like organ deep below its surface. Ego can absorb humanoid-sized living beings into itself and "digest" them in internal areas similar to an Earth beings stomach, using its own analogues to digestive fluids. Just as an Earth organism creates one-celled antibodies to attack foreign substances in its bloodstream, Ego creates humanoid sized anti-body like beings from itself to attack intruders on or beneath its surface. In its encounters with humanoids, Ego has caused the "antibodies" to take semi humanoid form.
Ego generates vast psionic energies which, at their peak, rival those of Galactus. If Ego depletes its energy below a level that it can replenish by itself, it can help renew its energy stories by tapping outside sources, like stars, or absorbing the life forces of large numbers of living beings. At full strength Ego can use its psionic energy to obliterate starships. Ego can also control its own substance psychically. Thus Ego can transform its own surface to resemble a gigantic face, to reach out into space with gigantic tendrils, or to become an idyllic world resembling the most beautiful areas of Earth. Ego can create humanoid beings with great powers out of its own surface and, it claims, command them across interstellar distances. Ego communicates with other beings telepathically.
Ego has used Its great psionic powers to command the immensely powerful sidereal propulsion unit installed at its south pole by Galactus. The unit can propel Ego in and out of hyperspace at vast speeds, and apparently has virtually inexhaustible power.
Limitations: For unknown reasons, Ego is apparently unable to remove the sidereal propulsion unit embedded in its south pole.
Ego's control over its own atmosphere is apparently no match for the power that the thunder god Thor can wield over it using the mystical powers of his enchanted hammer.

(There are lots of websites devoted to Ego. For this battle, Ego will not get involved UNLESS you do something to him to cause him pain. For example, if my character, Terrax, was in this battle, he would have tried to use the planet as a source for fighting War Machine. The problem would have been that Terrax would then be fighting War Machine AND Ego. So, take this into consideration of your character's actions.)

Harlekin

12-29-2006, 01:13 PM

OPENING COMMENTS: Darkhawk vs Vector

Y'know, it's funny. Vector's real name is Simon Utrecht. I study in Utrecht (it's a city in the Netherlands). I know you all would've died without me noticing this little coincedink. However, I won't bore you with more, and just tell you all why Darkhawk should kick Vector's little "trying to rip off the Fantastic Four"-ass.

Let's get the first bit of the battle out of the way: Prep-time. Darkhawk has got the Avengers files, Vector's got his own resources. Considering he's a pretty powerful industrialist (or used to be anyway) he'll have resources enough to figure out the basics on Darkhawk, but his opponent has the advantage. Darkhawk has access to highly detailed files on what Vector can do, and Vector can't say the same about Darkhawk.

On to their powers:
Telekinetically propels matter away from himself, can fly by using his power against the ground or any other object of greater mass then himself
The Darkhawk body has enhanced physical abilities, including strength, agility and reflexes. The retractable glider wings under his arms allow him to glide on air currents, and he can also fly at speeds that let him fly from New York to California in only a matter of hours. Even major injuries to his Darkhawk body can be repaired by switching back to his human form; his Darkhawk body teleports back to its holding space on the Darkhawk ship in Null Space, where it can be repaired almost instantly.

Darkhawk can project energy from the amulet in his chest, either as concussive force blasts, or as a circular energy shield. (Chris referred to his force blasts as "darkforce blasts," until he encountered the actual Darkforce Dimension in New Warriors.) Darkhawk also has telescopic and infra-red vision, and a grappling hook on his right arm shaped like a claw.

Now, Tag (from the New X-Men) showed how dangerous a "repelling power" can be, but Vector's don't work in quite the same manner. Tag had the ability to instinctively make people repel, but with just the ability of attracting and repelling matter though, it's not quite the same. It's a potent power sure, but without the aid of his teammates, it's practically useless. To attract Darkhawk towards him would only serve to quicken his defeat, and it's only a matter of time before Darkhawk is capable of surprising Vector and getting around his power, or simply push through by sheer force of will.

Vector offers no other offensive manouvre that can help defeat Darkhawk. He could try and use Ego to his advantage, but that would only serve to anger Ego and that would surely do him no good. All he can do is wait for his inevitable defeat as Darkhawk either tires him out, just plain kicks his ass or uses the location to his advantage. We must also not forget that Darkhawk can heal all of his injuries by just switching between forms, a pretty quick transformation.

Vector's outmatched here.

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9662/442pxdarkhawkme9.jpg
WINNER=DARKHAWK

DarkHellRider

12-30-2006, 05:31 AM

Match 22:

Siena Blaze (WOLVERINE25TH) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/blaze.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_blaze.jpg

vs.

Charles Xavier (DARKHELLRIDER) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/profx.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_profx.jpg

This would be a tough match because of charles good nature so he wouldnt want to hurt siena blaze. But charles would not have to do much. charles os one of the most powerful phycics on the planet as soon as he got teleported to ego he would sense the mental presence of hte planet and contact it. Telllin it how he ment it no harm. so once senia used a showckwave ego would respond in sending out its antibodies to dispose of her not going after charles because of his mental abilities

DarkHellRider

12-30-2006, 05:34 AM

Phaedrus45

12-31-2006, 03:01 AM

Hellion vs. Bloodaxe:

First, Hellion's bio:

Hellion is a telekinetic. He is able to fly at subsonic speeds, create telekinetic force barriers and manipulate objects from a distance.

Now, let me point out that this is Hellion PRE-HoM. He has not had Emma Frost unlock his subconscious blocks on his power. Also, Hellion has had some experience in battle, but not a great extent. He's still a student with not much practical battle experience in the field.

Now, let's focus on Bloodaxe:

Bloodaxe was endowed with superhuman strength, reflexes, stamina and endurance. He was invulnerable to conventional firearms, incendiary or ballistic devices.

The Bloodaxe axe was mystically enchanted and virtually indestructible. It could be used to teleport to places the wielder has previously been, and project fire or ice energy. It could also manipulate magnetic fields, allowing the user to deflect incoming gunfire back at attackers. However, if the user was separated from the axe for more than 60 seconds, they would lose their enchanted form and revert to their original mortal identity, much like the enchantment once placed on Mjolnir by Odin.

Also:

Superhuman strength , endurance and durability on the same levels of a being as powerful as Thor.

Now, neither character will know about the other or the location. Also, while Hellion does have telekenetic power, he has always been someone to act irrationally in battle, jumping in before realizing the full extent of his opponent. He will not realize this is a person who is just as powerful as Thor, who invulnerable to many different kinds of attacks, and with a swing of his axe, will cleave Hellion in half.

I want to stress one important thing my opponent might try to use in his debate, but which would not be at all effective. He might claim he'd just get Bloodaxe's axe away from him for 60 seconds; but, Hellion will not know who Bloodaxe is. He won't know about this one possible weakness. Plus, it's highly unlikely that Bloodaxe could be stripped of his weapon.

Again, Hellion is very cocky. He leaps before he looks. He's also fairly inexperienced and won't know who he's facing.

Another battle strategy that Bloodaxe will use is covering a lot of ground before engaging Hellion in battle. For, as his biography states, "The Bloodaxe axe was mystically enchanted and ... could be used to teleport to places the wielder has previously been." If Hellion tries to attack Bloodaxe, Bloodaxe will be able to teleport to any location he's already been on Ego, the Living Planet...or even teleport directly above or behind Jullian, use his axe, and splice him in two.

Truly, there is only one winner.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/87387731330.451.gif (http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=87387731330%20451)

Winner = Bloodaxe

WOLVERINE25TH

01-01-2007, 02:24 PM

WOLVERINE25TH

01-01-2007, 02:26 PM

BLAZE vs. XAVIER

Thought vs. force of nature. Basically, it all comes down to if Xavier could mentally incapacitate her before she sends off her most powerful shot and wipe him out to win before Ego kicks her ass.

WINNER: BLAZE

Phaedrus45

01-01-2007, 06:41 PM

HELLION vs. BLOODAXE

Despite his inexperience, Hellion has been seen holding up against some of the X-Men's powerful foes. His force bubble has yet to be penetrated and even before his enhancements he could do some damange. His powers also give him another benefit: range.

Actually, since he's pre-HoM, any experience he's faced in battling past X-Men villians, like Nimrod, are unusable. This really is an inexperienced version, and voters do need to take that into consideration.

Plus, in regards to his "force bubble," it's never gone against anything as powerful as Bloodaxe's enchanted axe. This is a very powerful weapon, and, more than likely, would render Hellion unconscious. Remember, it's stated as being able to cut through almost anything. Even if the bubble did hold up, Hellion couldn't withstand the impact that it would deliver.

He can fly and strike from a distance. His hot-headed nature also means he'll strike out hard and fast to try and put this guy down to undoubtedly show off for his teammates back home.

It's been shown that Hellion's hot-headed nature is usually his downfall. And, wanting to "show off for his teammates back home" is going to get him killed. Bloodstrike has faced such enemies as Thor and Thunderstrike. Hellion just doesn't have that kind of experience.

That makes him even more dangerous as well as careless. Also, Axe isn't unstoppable as he has been beaten before.

The nature of being a villian is getting defeated in the end. But, Bloodaxe has also held his own against a very powerful Thor and Thunderstrike, and has even come out on top.

It couldn't also take much for Hellion to propel Axe so hard he aggrivates Ego and brings his wrath down upon him by chance.

But, Ego would be aware that it's Hellion causing him pain.

As I've pointed out, Bloodaxe is "invulnerable to conventional firearms, incendiary or ballistic devices." It's very likely that nothing Hellion would do could really hurt Bloodaxe. In fact, Bloodaxe could let Hellion think he's knocked him out, and once Hellion comes up to check on his supposed fallen foe, Bloodaxe would surprise his unexpected victim with a swipe of his axe.

Winner = Bloodaxe

WOLVERINE25TH

01-02-2007, 12:53 AM

Phaedrus45

01-02-2007, 10:19 AM

Ya know, that distinction is retarded as all hell. You wanna keep him at his original power levels, that's just fine...but HoM is a story that had absolutely NO EFFECT on Hellion whatsoever, so all you're doing is robbing him of valuable experience. Now ya wanna go pre-upgrade, that's all fine and dandy, but seriously creating a restriction in regards to stories that had NO CHANGES resulted in a character is rediculous. And that goes fer any character in this tournament with any player.

Post HoM Hellion is the same as pre-HoM Hellion just with a couple more adventures under his belt. It's the end of Nimrod where a real change comes into play. You wanna say pre-Nimrod, I'll go with that happily. But pre-HoM? Gonna hafta fight you on that one.

It won't work. This point was already debated in my match versus Mercury, and JH determined that all things that happen in the year-long, Child's Hood End storyline cannot be used in this tournament. He even made the decision, knowing that it would effect his character. All the upgrades and experience that Jullian received, therefore, cannot be used in this match. The last fight that Jullian would have been involved in is with the Hellions mini-series.

WOLVERINE25TH

01-02-2007, 10:54 AM

And that's retarded. You can't allow current stories fer some characters (which has happened in debates) and then deny them fer others, especially when those stories don't affect a character enough to alter them fer this shindig. And had I been able to follow all the pre-tournament stuff, I woulda fought this then too.

House of M didn't affect ANY OF THE CURRENT MUTANTS. The experiences IN HoM can logically be excluded, but to make that a cut-off point is dumb unless yer gonna do it fer every single character involved.

If you want characters at specific power levels, as I said, I'm all fer that. In which case, only the stories where those upgrades happen and thereafter get the boot. Everything else SHOULD remain fair game.

Phaedrus45

01-02-2007, 11:05 AM

Well, JH pointed out that the writer stated that Child's Hood End was a year-long storyline....and, when I wanted to use some instances from it against his character, Mercury, he showed how I couldn't. In the end, we both agreed it probably hurts his character more by not using it; but, the rules of "current storylines" not being included are there for a reason.

Phaedrus45

01-02-2007, 11:08 AM

edit

Phaedrus45

01-02-2007, 02:34 PM

Voting May Begin!

(Remember, you must read through all of this weeks debates before voting. The debates should be the largest percentage of reason for the way you vote; but, they do not have to be the sole reason for your decision.)

Harlekin

01-02-2007, 03:26 PM

Psylocke
Professor X
Bloodaxe
Darkhawk

Phaedrus45

01-02-2007, 03:40 PM

*Psylocke

*Charles Xavier

*Bloodaxe

*Darkhawk - (Although, Darkhawk wouldn't have access to Avenger's files as stated. He was with the West Coast Avengers, and it was only for a very short time.)

wiegeabo

01-02-2007, 04:01 PM

Psylocke
Xavier
Bloodaxe
Darkhawk (although a different bio on Vector almost got the vote from me, I think 'hawk could still eventually take it)

kytrigger

01-02-2007, 05:07 PM

Psylocke
Bloodaxe
Darkhawk
Xavier

Hellstormer

01-02-2007, 05:47 PM

Xavier
Darkhawk
Bloodaxe (Maybe if Hellion was a bit older and more expierienced)
Ummmm Psylocke

Wow all four threads without debates.

JewishHobbit

01-02-2007, 05:58 PM

Re: Childhood's End:

I did make an official call that all of Childhood's End would not be included due to it being one full story. I agree that it sucks because the students had a lot of growth in the story, but if we put a rule into play, it applies for all situations. Childhood's End is the story that was going when we started, thus, it's the story that is discluded. Sadly, it's a year long arc.

My Votes:

Psylocke
Xavier
Bloodaxe
Darkhawk

Phaedrus45

01-02-2007, 06:31 PM

Results So Far:

Psylocke currently beating Diamond Lil 6-0
Charles Xavier currently beating Siena Blaze 6-0
Bloodaxe currently beating Hellion 6-0
Darkhawk currently beating Vector 6-0

Ahura Mazda

01-03-2007, 04:57 AM

Psylocke
Bloodaxe
Darkhawk
Xavier

WOLVERINE25TH

01-03-2007, 08:23 AM

Psylocke
Blaze
Hellion
Darkhawk

Zoken

01-03-2007, 06:57 PM

Psylocke
Bloodaxe
Darkhawk
Xavier

Iceman

01-03-2007, 07:57 PM

Psylocke
Xavier
Bloodaxe
Darkhawk

Midnight Ice

01-04-2007, 05:07 AM

Psylocke
Xavier
Bloodaxe
Darkhawk

Phaedrus45

01-04-2007, 10:58 AM

Final Results:

Psylocke beat Diamond Lil 11-0
Charles Xavier beat Siena Blaze 10-1
Bloodaxe beat Hellion 10-1
Darkhawk beat Vector 11-0

Harlekin

01-04-2007, 11:05 AM

Wow, a blow-out. Awesome. Too bad you forfeited DHR.

Phaedrus45

01-04-2007, 02:42 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg

BRACKET 1,

Match 23:

Spider-Man - Classic (JEWISHHOBBIT) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_spiderman1.gif

vs.

Dragon Man (PHAEDRUS45) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Man)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_200px-DragonMan2.gif

Match 24:

Abomination (WOLVERINE25TH) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_(comics))

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_abomination.gif

vs.

Juggernaut - Villian (DARKHELLRIDER) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/juggernaut.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_juggernaut.gif

Phaedrus45

01-04-2007, 03:50 PM

Phaedrus45

01-04-2007, 03:57 PM

LOCATION: ASTEROID M

Asteroid M has been destroyed and reconstructed by the Master of Magnetism many times. All of them had several levels, including an observation deck, hangar bays and medical facilities. The various facilities had technology that kept it concealed from standard detection technology. They were all positioned in stationary orbit probably over Anya's grave (the deceased eldest child of Magneto).

Third version

It was during his brief association with the Hellfire Club (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club_%28comics%29), that Magneto rebuilt a fancier version of Asteroid M. Magneto wanted a contingency plan, if things didn't work out with the Hellfire Club. Therefore, he proceeded to rebuild his base of operations, to survey the Earth, from high above. From there, he heard of Scarlet Witch's troubles. He went down to Earth, to bring her back to his space station. This version was first seen in Avengers: West Coast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Avengers) #57 (April 1990).
When the West Coast Avengers attacked Asteroid M, we learn that Magneto has service robots on the station. The service robots were instrumental in alerting Magneto to the presence of Wasp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasp_%28comics%29), on his base. For obvious reasons, his entire asteroid isn't made out of metallic objects. Quicksilver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quicksilver_%28comics%29) demonstrated this when he ripped out plastic tubing out of one the consoles.
Afterwards events involving Zaladane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaladane), in the Savage Land (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savage_Land), Magneto returned to Asteroid M, to live in peace. His peace didn't last that long, when Acolytes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acolytes_%28comics%29), led originally by Fabian Cortez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Cortez), requested and were granted sanctuary by Magneto from American soldiers that were chasing them, on Asteroid M.
In X-Men (Second series) #1 (October 1991), it was stated that the asteroid was in synchronous orbit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_orbit) and 250 kilometers above the Earth (synchronous orbit is actually much farther from Earth than this; in all likelihood it was being magnetically levitated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_levitation) at that altitude). The asteroid also has selective inhibitor fields, that may keep mutants or superhumans from using their powers. This version of the asteroid has medical & science facilities, an observation deck, sleeping quarters, and a swimming pool.
Asteroid M was destroyed for the final time in X-Men (Second series) #3 (December 1991). From an escape pod, Cortez set off nuclear missiles that were around the asteroid. Although Magneto survived the re-entry of Asteroid M to Earth, the rest of the original Acolytes did not. The remains of the Asteroid M crashed into the Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East). Forge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forge_%28comics%29), Henry Peter Gyrich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Peter_Gyrich), and other government officials, inspected the wreckage in Uncanny X-Men #299 (April 1993).

Phaedrus45

01-04-2007, 05:53 PM

Spider-Man vs. Dragon Man:

First, a better biography on Dragon Man:

Strength level: Dragon possesses Class 100 strength, and is thus able to lift (press) somewhere over 100 tons.

Known Superhuman Powers: As a non-human synthetic creature, Dragon Man has a number of superhuman attributes. Dragon Man's body, made of high-density long-chain organic polymers, which were an attempt at manufacturing life-mimicking materials, has incredible durability and strength. His thick hide is capable of resisting without rupture ballistic impacts up to and including 155mm Howitzer shells, or 300 pounds of TNT. His body can withstand extremes in both temperature (from -200° to 1,000°+ Fahrenheit) and pressure (from 0.02 to 12.5 atmospheres). Not truly alive, Dragon Man does not need oxygen to sustain his pseudo-life. He is an omnivore, capable of consuming, diverse forms of matter and converting them to energy. (He has not yet tasted flesh). His tail, which is 7 feet long from base to tip, can be whipped at speeds of up to 130 feet per second (90 miles per hour), generating enough force to smash a 3-foot thick stone wall or topple a loaded 5,000 gallon tank truck.
Dragon Man can fly by means of an internal antigravity generator constructed out of synthetic materials. His bat-like wings, which span 35 feet from tip to tip, aid him in controlling his stability and direction. He can fly at a maximum speed of 30 miles per hour and reach a maximum height of 1,800 feet. Assuming he has a constant energy supply, Dragon Man is virtually tireless and can fly for an indefinite period of time.
Dragon Man exhales fire through his mouth by releasing a high-pressure stream of methane gas, a by-product of his unusual digestive system, through vents in the back of his throat. The gas mixes with air from his lungs and is ignited by specialized teeth, which can spark when struck together. This fire, which reaches a temperature of about 8,000° F, can be emitted for a maximum of 7 minutes before he needs to "refuel."

I'm not going to fully debate this match-up yet. (I'm not even includeing Spidey's powers. Heck, most of us know them, and I'll probably leave that up to my opponent to fully describe, if he wishes.) There are a few instances where Dragon Man and Spider-Man have appeared together: Web Of Spider-Man #61, 99 & 100...Spectacular Spider-Man #235 & 236. But, I want to make sure the readers have the better biography than what I originally provided. Plus, I'd like to point out one important part:

Although Dragon Man is slow-minded to the point that he is incapable of speech, he understands orders given by Diablo and is a determined foe of the Fantastic Four. Dragon Man is not especially malicious, although he is easily manipulated and provoked to violence.

One biography I read compared Dragon Man's brain to that of a dog. And, I figure my opponent will stress my character's lack of intelligence, which is an advantage for him. But, I want to stress that Dragon Man will realize that he is suppose to fight Spider-Man, has fought him in the past, and will be "provoked to violence" by orders from whoever is controlling this contest. (We've mentioned it would be someone, like the Beyonder; and, I believe since we want the best character to win, so would this Controller. His impulse would be enough, just like with Diablo.) Plus, he'll have his past experience to remember what not to do and what worked before. Even a dog can learn his lessons.

Spider-Man does have the advantage in regards to a few areas. He will be able to get a lot of research on Dragon Man, especially with access to Avenger's files. (Although, this version is before The Other transformation. He cannot use any of his new abilities or armor that Tony Stark has provided for him.) He'll be able to find out information on Asteroid M, but not as in-depth as X-Men files would have, I'm sure. (In fact, I'm not sure how in-depth Avenger's files on Asteroid M will be. I'm willing to hear what my opponent believes they'd have and see if I agree.)

This is probably going to be my most difficult match. Spider-Man got knocked out of Round 1 last season, and he's a popular favorite with all of us. It's hard to vote against him, and I know this will be an uphill battle. I even hate the thought of him getting eliminated again in the first round. But, I think this is one of the best matches so far of this season and it's up to JH and I to do it justice. Basically, when it all comes down to it, we both want the best man to win, whether that's going to be Spidey or Dragon Man.

Anyway, like I said, this isn't really my opening debate. It's giving my opponent an idea of where I'm coming from and pointing out a few of the things I see going into this match. I really respect both of these characters and can see this match going either way. Plus, the previous appearances will give me a clearer idea of what each character's previous experience has gained of the other.

Hellstormer

01-04-2007, 06:10 PM

BRACKET 2,

Match 23:

Spider-Girl (TRIGGER) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Girl)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_spider2.gif

vs.

Mimic - Exiles (HELLSTORMER) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/alternatex/exiles/mimic.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_250px-Exiles31.jpg

Damn guess I gotta go back to my original plan before Mimic, Morph, and Nocturne lost. He's always been my star character.

Ok Mimic has access to the Crystal Place so he'll be able to get info on Spider-Girl but she won't be able to get info for him. Spider-Girl IS a mutant, so he'll go into battle knowing this and immediately nab her powers in exchange for Beast's. Now he'll have:

Steel Skin
Super Strength
Super Speed
Optic Blast
Bone Claws
Healing Factor
Acute Senses
Spider Sense
Spider Agility
Spider Strength
Magnetism
Wall Sticking

Now the new spider powers will take a while to get use to but the enhanced agility he'll be able to use right away along with the Spider Sense.

This battle should be really easy for him. Mimic's not a mean guy but he's not a pushover (As seen in Exiles 14 and 15 where he single handedly took on an army robot and Namor.) And face it Namor could easily take SPider-Girl so as I see it.

Spider-Girl<Namor<Mimic

The battle will start with Mimic biding his time till he can copy the Spider-Girls power. He can very easily face her head on until he's got her powers then he can go for the kill shots very easily defeating her.

Winner=Mimic

Ahura Mazda

01-05-2007, 04:25 AM

Match 24:

Doc Samson (AHURA MAZDA) bio (http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/d/docsamson.htm)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_docsamson.gif

vs.

Cable - Telepath (HIPPY FASCIST) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/cable.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_cable.gif

Ok this is what I am going to assume for this battle:

Cable has telepathic abilities but he is no where near the X-Man range. Otherwise he has his normal skills and aptitude.

With regard to information, both will know of each other and Cable will have an added advantage of knowing the terrain better.

this battle will howvere be a head on battle. Doc Samson is Diet Hulk, like the Hulk but with less calories ;) He has all the Hulk abilities to a lesser degree. One of those abilities is mind resistance (not immunity). Therefore the level of Cable's powers will have their improtance here.

In a straight up fist fight, Doc sampson wins easily given his strength levels and fighting prowess so it will all depend on how this battle goes. Cable can be potentially be put out of play by Doc Sampson before he is able to have any effect. Most of Cable's weaponry will have little effect given Doc Sampson's degree of physical resistance.

Doc Sampson should pull a win even if it will be through difficulty.

Winner - Doc Sampson

JewishHobbit

01-05-2007, 01:39 PM

Spiderman (Classic) Vs Dragon Man

Okay, so this is an interesting match up. These two know one another, but they've only fought once really. They faught while Spidey was Cosmic so that really doesn't add much, and they fought once while it was Ben Reilly as Spidey. The only appearances that I know of where they truly fought was in Web of Spiderman 100, and spidey was facing Dragon Man along with about 4 or 5 other super characters (Vanisher, Plant Man, some others).

Dragon was unable to take out Spidey then when he was distracted by others... what chance will he have now? Just something to think on. So anyhow, here's some stuff to think about.

Neither character would be familiar with Asteroid M, though I'm sure Spidey can look up the info on the Avengers files, though I don't know how much he'd get from it. I'd say he'd probably get a minor amount of detail, but not much. Magneto being a semi-Avengers villain would give Asteroid M an entry, but I don't know how much, so take that as you will. Dragon Man will know nothing of the location.

Asteroid M grants spidey lots of moving room, but it's kinda tight for Dragon Man. There's areas where he can move, but mostly it'll be cramped. Not good flying room.

Dragon Man is also fairly dumb. He's basically like a big attack dog. My understanding of the character is that he isn't even very evil or agressive, but can be coaxed into it by others and he can follow the orders of others. For the sake of the match, I'll assume that he's aggressive to put him at maximum threat, but he's still dumb. He's basically a savage lack of thinking brute. Spidey's had a lot of experience with those types, and none's beat him yet.

Anyhow, I won't go into the detail as I see that Phaed did a decent job outlining Dragon Man's powers above, and we all know Spidey. So here's my thinking toward the battle.

Spidey will be aware of Dragon Man during preptime and will know how powerful Dragon Man is. He will then get ready by going through his things. He might bring the Spidey Armor if Phaed allows it, but it was destroyed in Web 100, so I'm up in the air about it. He kinda made it in a whip, so I bet he could do it again. He has also used Impact Webbing before (after Ben's death) so that'd be handy as well. Anyhow, they'd arrive on Asteroid M and it begins. It will begin and Spidey will be spidey, dodging and wisecracking. I can see him using Impact webbing to clog Dragon Man's mouth and to web him, but I doubt this would actually work. I basically added those in for measure.

This battle could be real hard, but I think the location is going to win it for Spidey. Asteroid M has some big areas, like the pool and such, but the majority of it is smaller, hallways and rooms and such. I figure it'd start in a larger area but Spidey would know to get out of his way. He'd fight Dragon Man for a while, but eventually he'd tuck away to think up his strategy. Dragon isn't very smart so he'd follow after and the fight would take place in more cramped quarters. It'd be normal size for Spidey, so he isn't restricted, but Dragon would have problems. I can see spidey webbing Dragon in place.

Now I figure the webbing would be torn easily, but by this time Dragon is growing wrathful. I can see him all out attacking and just going at it. Thing is, he doesn't have room for it and he isn't smart enough to know what to do otherwise. Long story short, his strength alone is enough to break the walls, and eventually he'll break hsi way out of the station and go floating away in space. He wouldn't die or anything, as he doesn't need to breath and he can withstand the pressure, but he can't fly in space or anything so he's just drifting off to defeat. He basically does it to himself. I'm sure Spidey would help coax him into something like that, knowing that he's an android and not technically alive.

I dont' have much time to detail stuff, but Peter's smart and Dragon's dumb. Brains always outwit strength (something Pete's not lacking on either), and the location make it difficult for Dragon to get any leverage to manauver like Spidey can.

Overall I can see Spidey winning this one.

Winner - Spidey

Phaedrus45

01-05-2007, 03:15 PM

JewishHobbit

01-05-2007, 06:31 PM

Partial Rebuttal of Spidey vs. Dragon Man:

I still need to research the comics in question; but, if you say the Spidey armor was destroyed in that issue, and this is Spidey at the beginning of forming the New Avengers, it would stand to reason it's not available. (But, you could argue whether he could make it again.)

Yeah, I wasn't sure whether he could make it in 24 hours either, so I'll just let the voters decide if he can. If he can, then he has the added amor, which doesn't slow him down any by the way... and if he can't then no big deal. It's just extra protection.

Now, as for the location, while it might initially hinder Dragon Man, it won't for long. I want to point out this portion of the biography on him:

His thick hide is capable of resisting without rupture ballistic impacts up to and including 155mm Howitzer shells, or 300 pounds of TNT. His body can withstand extremes in both temperature (from -200° to 1,000°+ Fahrenheit) and pressure (from 0.02 to 12.5 atmospheres). Not truly alive, Dragon Man does not need oxygen to sustain his pseudo-life. He is an omnivore, capable of consuming, diverse forms of matter and converting them to energy. (He has not yet tasted flesh). His tail, which is 7 feet long from base to tip, can be whipped at speeds of up to 130 feet per second (90 miles per hour), generating enough force to smash a 3-foot thick stone wall or topple a loaded 5,000 gallon tank truck.

Now, since Dragon Man does not need oxygen to sustain his life and he can survive in temperatures from -200 to 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, I'm going to suppose he could survive in space. It's possible that as soon as Dragon Man arrives and see he's enclosed in Asteroid M, he would start destroying everything around him. With halls and other such areas, he'd be blowing extremely hot gusts of fire down, killing anything in it's path. Plus, he'd have his tail smashing stuff, too.

At first, I thought the location was better for Spidey, but the more I looked into things, realized that Dragon Man could survive in space and Spidey wouldn't be able to, I came to the conclusion that Spidey might be royally screwed. Dragon Man, like any dog, won't like to be "caged up" in a confined space. He would break his way out, thus destroying Asteroid M possibly in his attempt to get out. If he didn't kill Spidey with letting in the lack of air in space, he would just start to destroy the whole Ateroid. It doesn't take brillance to make Dragon Man want to squash a bug...or spider.

We're talking the king of evasive manuevers here. Dragon Man couldn't tag Spidey in Web 100, I think it's safe to assume he can dodge here too. Between his agility and spidey sense, I think he's pretty safe.

As for space... the thing is, Spidey just needs to focus on not getting sucked out. He's not dumb... when Dragon Man starts going nuts, destroying everything, he'll probably try to salvage it, but seeing a lost cause, he's ducking for cover. Dragon Man's an android... he won't lose much sleep over him going out the 'hatch.' And Dragon Man can survive in space, but his bio says nothing about being able to navigate it. If he gets sucked out, and spidey remains inside... he's effectively removed from the battle and loses. Spidey wins. Dragon Man's a dangerous foe that could have gone far, but the tight quarters, his lack of intelligence, and his savagry is his undoing. Spidey's smart enough to stay out of his way. If a wall is about to blow, his spidey sense will warn him and he'll get the heck out of dodge and win this match.

Winner - Spiderman

Phaedrus45

01-05-2007, 06:59 PM

Yeah, I wasn't sure whether he could make it in 24 hours either, so I'll just let the voters decide if he can. If he can, then he has the added amor, which doesn't slow him down any by the way... and if he can't then no big deal. It's just extra protection.

We're talking the king of evasive manuevers here. Dragon Man couldn't tag Spidey in Web 100, I think it's safe to assume he can dodge here too. Between his agility and spidey sense, I think he's pretty safe.

As for space... the thing is, Spidey just needs to focus on not getting sucked out. He's not dumb... when Dragon Man starts going nuts, destroying everything, he'll probably try to salvage it, but seeing a lost cause, he's ducking for cover. Dragon Man's an android... he won't lose much sleep over him going out the 'hatch.' And Dragon Man can survive in space, but his bio says nothing about being able to navigate it. If he gets sucked out, and spidey remains inside... he's effectively removed from the battle and loses. Spidey wins. Dragon Man's a dangerous foe that could have gone far, but the tight quarters, his lack of intelligence, and his savagry is his undoing. Spidey's smart enough to stay out of his way. If a wall is about to blow, his spidey sense will warn him and he'll get the heck out of dodge and win this match.

For me, Dragon Man has wings and is an android. He should be able to navigate in space just fine. If Asteroid M has numerous holes made in it from Dragon Man's ability to lift 100 tons, I don't see how long Spidey can survive. Anyway, I'm going to do more research on my character this weekend. I'm still trying to figure out how Spider-Man is going to knock out Dragon Man.

Winner = Dragon Man

JewishHobbit

01-06-2007, 09:47 PM

For me, Dragon Man has wings and is an android. He should be able to navigate in space just fine. If Asteroid M has numerous holes made in it from Dragon Man's ability to lift 100 tons, I don't see how long Spidey can survive. Anyway, I'm going to do more research on my character this weekend. I'm still trying to figure out how Spider-Man is going to knock out Dragon Man.

Winner = Dragon Man

Just because Dragon Man has wings and is an android, that doesn't meen he has anything to do with space. Wings won't help where they're no environment to fluxuate or move him with. No gusts of air, nothing to glide on, just nothing. If a bird was in space (and no pressure killing it) it wouldn't be able to fly, same for Dragon Man. Dragon Man also doesn't have any sort of propulsion deal or whatever it is that makes things like a space shuttle fly. He'd just float and float until he's removed from the battle.

Spidey can just move to other rooms and get away before the hole even blows. He'll know it's coming due to his spidey sense, and he can get away. The hole will suck out Dragon Man imediately while Spidey is already gone from that room or place. Granted, it's a breach and would probably do a lot of damage to Asteroid M (though I could easily see Magneto making some type of procedure to make the place adjust to this, such as dumping a part of the station, or having something to repare it or something). Spidey would have a heck of a time getting away and such, but he can move quickly, he has adhesive abilities to help him move away from the suction, etc. It isn't hard to imagine him staying aboard long enough to be awarded a win.

How can Spidey knock out Dragon Man? It doesn't matter as it isnt' necessary. The location itself would win this match no matter who Dragon Man's facing. It's just a tight location with an animal like prisoner that would end the same every time. Dragon Man throws a fit and tries to become uncaged and ends up breaking out of the station and floating away in space. Dragon Man is a beast, but even Beak has a chance of beating him here, and add Spidey's experience, knowledge of Dragon Man, intelligence, spidey sense, and adhesive abilities... he's got this in the bag.

Winner - Spiderman

Phaedrus45

01-06-2007, 11:14 PM

My problem with the above argument is that Marvel (and DC for that matter) is constantly showing people who might not be able to do what they do in space as doing what they do. I can see a Marvel writer taking the above scenario and making Dragon Man be able to use his wings.

JewishHobbit

01-06-2007, 11:19 PM

hippy fascist

01-07-2007, 04:38 PM

Cable vs Doc Samson

http://www.sfgalleries.net/art/mvc2/series1/cable.jpg

(Sorry for the delay ahura, I've been on a 56k connection for the last two weeks so haven't been able to get on here.)

Woohoo! Cable is one of my all time favourite characters and the location (due to this particular version of cable) suits me right down to the ground! :D

Ok, so lets go over his powers first. While cable is not at his god-like power levels at this point he is still damn powerful telepath being more powerful than rachel but not quite as powerful as jean. The nature of the techno-organic virus is a complicated one but the best way to view it is this. Wolverine's adamantium takes a small portion of his healing factor away as it is constantly attacking his system requiring this small portion to keep it in check. Cable has the same problem with the techno-organic virus. When you consider that the base level for these powers is x-man however you realise that this is still one DAMN powerful telepath. He can throw up forcefields, emit telekenetic blasts, control or shut down minds, fly (to a limited extent) and of course there's also the time travel.(I believe this is the right timeframe I am thinking of, if not could jewhobs or phaed pm me to ammend my definition of powers)

As this is pre-cable & deadpool he should still be in posession of his bio-mechanical arm and eye (although I'm not too up on cable anddeadpool so he may still have those). The eye provides cable with heat vision which in a massive city such as this should prove highly usefull for both evading and tracking his opponent.

In terms of preptime cable has the definate advantage here. He will have full knowledge of Samson's powers and abilities and will have the resources to prepare accordingly. Samson on the other hand will know little of what cable is capable of, and from what little exposure he has had to him will assume he is just a big guy with a metal arm and lots of guns.

In terms of how the fight will go down, cable has access to tech 100's of years in advance of our own. As a result of this he is faced with two options:

1. He is a highly trained mercenary with access to some VERY BIG guns. The kind of firepower that could take out samson quickly and efficiently. He could gain information on the location early and scope out the best plays to lay and ambush for samson whereas samson again will have very little info on the location.

2. He uses his psychic abilities to take Samson down. He can do this in multiple ways by bringing a building down on him with his telekenesis, or bombarding him with wave after wave of telekentik blasts, or he could simply lock down his mind turning him (temporarily) into the equivalent of a lobotomised mental patient.

While Samson is very strong cable can wield firepower strong enough to take him out. He also has little or no psychic resistance that I have been able to find info on so the psychic assault route would probably be the best option here. Again (I feel like I'm always saying this, just getting luck with the draw I guess ;) ) Against any physically orientated opponent Samson would walk it but the lack of psychic defenses will be his undoing here.

WINNER: CABLE!

Hellstormer

01-07-2007, 04:43 PM

Wrong thread

hippy fascist

01-07-2007, 05:07 PM

Ok this is what I am going to assume for this battle:

Cable has telepathic abilities but he is no where near the X-Man range. Otherwise he has his normal skills and aptitude.

No where near is the wrong phrase, he's not that far off but I agree heis not at x-man range. However, he is still one of the most powerful telepath/telekenetics on the planet.

With regard to information, both will know of each other and Cable will have an added advantage of knowing the terrain better.

With regards the personal info we could debate that all day so I say we just let it drop. I agree with you about the terrain though! :woot:

this battle will however be a head on battle. Doc Samson is Diet Hulk, like the Hulk but with less calories ;) He has all the Hulk abilities to a lesser degree.

One of those abilities is mind resistance (not immunity). Therefore the level of Cable's powers will have their improtance here.

This is where we begin to disagree. To quote the marvel database's bio

Note: As is apparent by comparing the mutated forms of such gamma radiation subjects as the Hulk, the Abomination, Doc Samson, and the Leader, different frequencies of gamma radiation affect different human beings in different ways. The effect that intensive gamma radiation has on most people is cellular deterioration and eventual death, but there are others whose genetic constitution enables them to mutate so as to gain superhuman powers. The type and extent of mutation is determined by tour factors: the frequency and amount of the gamma rays, the subject's latent mutant potential, and the subject's psychological make-up. The subject's potential for mutation is dictated by certain mysterious "intersticial" segments of DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid), the molecules which carry a living organism's genetic code. Under the action of mutagenic influences, such as gamma rays, the segments can trigger many body wide restructuring events. As for the subject's psychological make-up, it has been theorized that the gamma radiation somehow acts to mold the subject's mutated form according to repressed desires within his subconscious. Hence, Doc Samson's mutated form is the physical embodiment of his own long-buried desire to become a super heroic figure.

He is often compared to the hulk as, I believe, he started out in hulks book and is an extremely physical character. However, every bio I have read says healing, strength, durability and genius intellect. Not one reference to psychic defenses. I am not overly familiar with the character so if you can provide references I'd be happy to concede this point but I'd require proof of psychic defenses. Due to the nature of cable's powers this would be the only thorn in my side. Just because a character is compared to another, it does not mean they have same powerset. Just look at northstar and quicksilver, similar and often compared but with significant differences.

With regards cable's power levels, as i said in my opening argument, he is still one of the most powerful telepaths on the planet, just not quite at jean and x-man's level. I would put him just shy of omega class as this is the period after he worked on his powers with his mother (again need a clarification on this refs)

In a straight up fist fight, Doc sampson wins easily given his strength levels and fighting prowess so it will all depend on how this battle goes. Cable can be potentially be put out of play by Doc Sampson before he is able to have any effect. Most of Cable's weaponry will have little effect given Doc Sampson's degree of physical resistance.

Debatable on the resistance (samson can stand much of what is available TODAY but remember that this cable is a time traveller, I'm sure he can find something to hurt Samson.

Secondly, cable would never allow this to come to a fist fight. This guy is the leader of a band of mercenaries and a military genius. He is also possesed of vast telekenetic and telepathic abilities. He would know where Samson is at all time's meaning he could always stay one step ahead of the game. This is a vast city, they are not going to be dropped in 10 paces from each other like high noon. This is guerilla warfare, something cable has vast experience with. He'll have worked out what traps to lay where and use subtle psychic suggestions to send samson where HE wants him to go and then lay him out.

Doc Sampson should pull a win even if it will be through difficulty.

Winner - Doc Sampson
I've tried not to take this stance in the tournament thus far but I have to say, I can't see how samson could win this. He is inferior in terms of training, experience, mental capabilites and resources. If this was a flat desert plain maybe he could find a way to win, but in a built up area against a hugely powerful telepath I can't see how he could win it.

WINNER: CABLE!

DarkHellRider

01-08-2007, 01:28 AM

[
Match 24:

Abomination (WOLVERINE25TH) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_(comics))

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_abomination.gif

vs.

Juggernaut - Villian (DARKHELLRIDER) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/juggernaut.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_juggernaut.gif

Tough match but a match Juggernaut could win. True aAbomination is strong but juggernaut is just about as strong. Prep time nether would have info on one another but its ok because juggernaut would not need it. Juggernaut have unending endurance and the abilty to not be hurt. Abomination true long lasting but not nearly as long as juggeraut he is able to be hurt but he can regenerate slowly all juggernaut would have to do is just lay into abomination if anything get him into space where juggernaut can still survive but abomination would go into a type of come letting juggy lay into him until they fall to earth. Tough match one I would love to see but juggy could take this.

Winner=the juggernat *^&)$es

Ahura Mazda

01-08-2007, 03:07 AM

Cable vs Doc Samson

(Sorry for the delay ahura, I've been on a 56k connection for the last two weeks so haven't been able to get on here.)

No problem, I actually had no internet connection this weekend due to cable issues in my neighbourhood.

Woohoo! Cable is one of my all time favourite characters and the location (due to this particular version of cable) suits me right down to the ground! :D

Glad you have him then........except I wish it was not against me ;)

Ok, so lets go over his powers first. While cable is not at his god-like power levels at this point he is still damn powerful telepath being more powerful than rachel but not quite as powerful as jean. The nature of the techno-organic virus is a complicated one but the best way to view it is this. Wolverine's adamantium takes a small portion of his healing factor away as it is constantly attacking his system requiring this small portion to keep it in check. Cable has the same problem with the techno-organic virus. When you consider that the base level for these powers is x-man however you realise that this is still one DAMN powerful telepath. He can throw up forcefields, emit telekenetic blasts, control or shut down minds, fly (to a limited extent) and of course there's also the time travel.(I believe this is the right timeframe I am thinking of, if not could jewhobs or phaed pm me to ammend my definition of powers)

This is where I was not clear and my posting was based on what I thought. First of all, however, even though Cable is more powerful then what I originally estimated he is not at X-Man's level and the techno-organic virus takes more out of Cable then what adamantium does out of Wolverine. This is evident by how he was when he was cured and how effective Wolverine's healing fctor was when he lost the adamantium. The difference was considerably greater with Cable.

But to be very honest I am not quite clear on Cable's level of power and that requires a clear definition.

As this is pre-cable & deadpool he should still be in posession of his bio-mechanical arm and eye (although I'm not too up on cable anddeadpool so he may still have those). The eye provides cable with heat vision which in a massive city such as this should prove highly usefull for both evading and tracking his opponent.

I am fin with that.

In terms of preptime cable has the definate advantage here. He will have full knowledge of Samson's powers and abilities and will have the resources to prepare accordingly. Samson on the other hand will know little of what cable is capable of, and from what little exposure he has had to him will assume he is just a big guy with a metal arm and lots of guns.

This is where I disagree, I do admit that cable does have the advantage but I wish to put forward that Sampson will have good knowledge of Cable based on all his resources.

In terms of how the fight will go down, cable has access to tech 100's of years in advance of our own. As a result of this he is faced with two options:

1. He is a highly trained mercenary with access to some VERY BIG guns. The kind of firepower that could take out samson quickly and efficiently. He could gain information on the location early and scope out the best plays to lay and ambush for samson whereas samson again will have very little info on the location.

Sampson can withstand tank shells and cable does not have a hand held gun that will cause more damage unless I am missing something. The thing is this tactic actually gives Sampson an adavantage as he is a brilliant strategist himself and would be wary of any ambush. Plus physically he is clearly Cable's superiour.

2. He uses his psychic abilities to take Samson down. He can do this in multiple ways by bringing a building down on him with his telekenesis, or bombarding him with wave after wave of telekentik blasts, or he could simply lock down his mind turning him (temporarily) into the equivalent of a lobotomised mental patient.

This strategy is the main question in this debate. Based on Cable's level, he either takes this easy or he loses badly. Normally, one hit from Sampson would be enough to put Cable down. Then again a psychic blast of sufficient power would put Sampson down.

Samspn does have some degree of resisitance even though there is nothing I can show as evidence here. His level of resistance would be light though.

Ahura Mazda

01-08-2007, 03:19 AM

No where near is the wrong phrase, he's not that far off but I agree heis not at x-man range. However, he is still one of the most powerful telepath/telekenetics on the planet.

this point is debatable and can only be settled by the authorities. I leave it uop to them.

With regards the personal info we could debate that all day so I say we just let it drop. I agree with you about the terrain though! :woot:

Ok I know you have the advantage here but its only fair.

This is where we begin to disagree. To quote the marvel database's bio

He is often compared to the hulk as, I believe, he started out in hulks book and is an extremely physical character. However, every bio I have read says healing, strength, durability and genius intellect. Not one reference to psychic defenses. I am not overly familiar with the character so if you can provide references I'd be happy to concede this point but I'd require proof of psychic defenses. Due to the nature of cable's powers this would be the only thorn in my side. Just because a character is compared to another, it does not mean they have same powerset. Just look at northstar and quicksilver, similar and often compared but with significant differences.

The thing is he seems to be like the Hulk in almost everyway except being allot weaker. Now given, I am basing his psychic resistance on Hulk's level which is against a Selene level psychic so I was stating that Sampson has a light degree of resistance meaning any psychic attack would not be instantaneously effective but obviously it would not be able to resist a Jean level telepath to any significant degree.

With regards cable's power levels, as i said in my opening argument, he is still one of the most powerful telepaths on the planet, just not quite at jean and x-man's level. I would put him just shy of omega class as this is the period after he worked on his powers with his mother (again need a clarification on this refs)

I agree on that we need a clarification and leave it at that.

Debatable on the resistance (samson can stand much of what is available TODAY but remember that this cable is a time traveller, I'm sure he can find something to hurt Samson.

in 24 hours I am not so sure.....

Secondly, cable would never allow this to come to a fist fight. This guy is the leader of a band of mercenaries and a military genius. He is also possesed of vast telekenetic and telepathic abilities. He would know where Samson is at all time's meaning he could always stay one step ahead of the game. This is a vast city, they are not going to be dropped in 10 paces from each other like high noon. This is guerilla warfare, something cable has vast experience with. He'll have worked out what traps to lay where and use subtle psychic suggestions to send samson where HE wants him to go and then lay him out.

Sampson who has a brilliant mind will be trying to make this into a fist fight, now the issue is whether he willl be able to get the jump on Cable as it is assumed here that Cable gets the jump on Sampson.

The high noon image is quite humourous though :D

To sum up, depending on Cable's power level this match is either an easy win for cable or a loss. the more this battle is less of a psychic battle then the more likely a win by Samson becomes probable.

Phaedrus45

01-08-2007, 12:21 PM

I could too, but the fact remains... they haven't thus far... therefor, he can't. If voters think he can, then let them vote for that, but I don't think he can if not having been shown doing it by now (how long's he been around?)

Also, most poeple that can fly are cosmic characters to begin with and are made for it, or have powers that can propell them (such as Firestar). I'm sure there's exceptions to the rules, but that's just bad writing, not really character traits.

To me, he's an android with wings, and just hasn't had the opportunity to use this method. Heck, if he's going away from the battle and his small brain realizes his wings aren't working, he can use the fire from his mouth to blow him back to the Asteroid. Either way, Spidey is pretty much going to be playing "avoid-the-nasty-dragon," and even he cannot stop the destruction of Asteroid M from eventually getting to him. He won't know how to shut down certain areas of Asteroid M if the vacuum of space is blowing into the local. And, the extreme fires from Dragon Man can incinerate Spidey quite easily. (If we want to discuss the true nature of space and how it would effect various characters in real life, the vacuum of space blowing into Asteroid M would pretty much destroy all life in that particular area and areas around it. And, the fires blowing down the corridors, engulfing everything around them, would prove quite deadly, too.)

Basically, this is not an easy match for Spider-Man (or, Dragon Man, for that matter). He is facing a foe who really cannot be hurt too much by much of anything Spidey can do. Plus, Dragon Man can lift 100 tons and take over 300 lbs. of TNT and not have it damage him. Also, while Dragon Man isn't very smart at all, this location truly hurts Spider-Man. He can only run so far, and all Dragon Man needs is his desire to kill Spidey to fuel him on to victory.

Winner = Dragon Man

hippy fascist

01-08-2007, 12:50 PM

No problem, I actually had no internet connection this weekend due to cable issues in my neighbourhood.

As luck would have it... :)

Glad you have him then........except I wish it was not against me ;)

pfft :rolleyes:;)

This is where I was not clear and my posting was based on what I thought. First of all, however, even though Cable is more powerful then what I originally estimated he is not at X-Man's level and the techno-organic virus takes more out of Cable then what adamantium does out of Wolverine. This is evident by how he was when he was cured and how effective Wolverine's healing fctor was when he lost the adamantium. The difference was considerably greater with Cable.

The metaphor I'm willing to let slide but the power levels I am totally certain about. I've pm'd JH to give us an official ruling. Until we get that I can't see any point in debating cable's levels

I am fin with that.

:)

This is where I disagree, I do admit that cable does have the advantage but I wish to put forward that Sampson will have good knowledge of Cable based on all his resources. Could go either way but I'll let this one slide

Sampson can withstand tank shells and cable does not have a hand held gun that will cause more damage unless I am missing something. The thing is this tactic actually gives Sampson an adavantage as he is a brilliant strategist himself and would be wary of any ambush. Plus physically he is clearly Cable's superiour.

I don't doubt he's cable's physical superior but RE the weapons. You can't compare todays weapons to what cable has. Most of his arsenal will be (as I said) from hundreds of years in the future. You don't think weapon tech has developed to the point where personal anti-tank weapons are readily available :confused:

This strategy is the main question in this debate. Based on Cable's level, he either takes this easy or he loses badly. Normally, one hit from Sampson would be enough to put Cable down. Then again a psychic blast of sufficient power would put Sampson down.

Samspn does have some degree of resisitance even though there is nothing I can show as evidence here. His level of resistance would be light though.

Without evidence I'd need a ruling on that. I've not been able to find a single reference to it so I'm either gonna need to see some scans or a judges ruling. If it was something minor I'd let it slip but since this is kind of a key point I'm gonna have to hold my ground on this one. I can't find a single reference to it in all the bios I've read of him (7 incidentally :)) so unless you can bring some evidence to the table I think this point should be disregarded

WINNER: CABLE!

hippy fascist

01-08-2007, 01:00 PM

this point is debatable and can only be settled by the authorities. I leave it uop to them.

Agreed

Ok I know you have the advantage here but its only fair.

Thank you

The thing is he seems to be like the Hulk in almost everyway except being allot weaker. Now given, I am basing his psychic resistance on Hulk's level which is against a Selene level psychic so I was stating that Sampson has a light degree of resistance meaning any psychic attack would not be instantaneously effective but obviously it would not be able to resist a Jean level telepath to any significant degree.

This doesn't hold up. Saying a character seems to be like another does not make them the same. It's like comparing firelord and human torch. Just because they can both set their bodies on fire doesn't mean Johnny currently has access to the power cosmic. This is all supposition based on zero evidence and as a result I don't feel it should be counted when voters make their decisions.

I agree on that we need a clarification and leave it at that.

Fair play

in 24 hours I am not so sure.....

Time travel negates this ruling. He could spend three years in another time and come back 1 minute after he left.

Sampson who has a brilliant mind will be trying to make this into a fist fight, now the issue is whether he willl be able to get the jump on Cable as it is assumed here that Cable gets the jump on Sampson.

Samson has a brilliant mind but it's not a military mind. He is very clever but part of spotting traps is learning to see paterns in your surroundings. You can't work out where a trip wire will be placed through statistical analysis. This just doesn't hold up. He won't fall for stupid traps but cable will have enough experience to put a little bluff and double-bluff in when setting them up. Samson just lacks the experience in this field

Also with cable's telepathy Samson won't be able to get close enough to cable to launch a physcial attack. Cable with either sense his presence and fry his mind or move in order to prevent detection. It's like the world's best security system but without the human error.

The high noon image is quite humourous though :D

It would indeed be awesome :cool:

To sum up, depending on Cable's power level this match is either an easy win for cable or a loss. the more this battle is less of a psychic battle then the more likely a win by Samson becomes probable.

I'd agree with that although even without his powers I think cable would stand a good chance if he could keep the fight ranged. Either way, as you say it comes down to power levels. I put cable somewhere around non-phoenix jean. That is up to JewHobs to decide though

WINNER: CABLE!

JewishHobbit

01-08-2007, 02:17 PM

I know his power level but I've been thinking of the timeframe that it's from. I've said the TWELVE timeframe before, but that wasn't actually it because he was severely limited at that time. I'm thinking closer to the time period of ONSLAUGHT/Operation Zero Tolerance when he still had the T.O. virus to worry about, but had great telepathy and telekinesis. So officially, Cable is the version from Zero Tolerance. We'll just dubb him from that time frame as well and go with it. At that time he was a very strong telepath along the same lines as Jean Grey. So to give you some perspective, here's where I would put him in a list:

Nate Grey

Cable/Jean (non-phoenix)

Psylocke/Rachel

Xavier's powers fluxuate quite a bit so I didn't include him. I hope the above listing does clarify though. This Cable is very much a powerhouse in the telepathy and telekinesis department.

hippy fascist

01-08-2007, 02:44 PM

Ahura Mazda

01-09-2007, 03:34 AM

WOLVERINE25TH

01-09-2007, 08:35 AM

ABOMINATION vs. JUGGERNAUT

Battle of the Titans! Both have gone up against the Hulk, both are strong as hell and both can give/take a beating. Abomination is twice as strong as Hulk when he's CALM and can regenerate, so even though he takes damage won't be long until it's repaired. This battle basically comes down to how strong one thinks the asteroid is. Both of them would pummel each other through the corridors and floors and even the rock itself. Both would use environmental objects for ranged attacks and both would fight dirty. Both can also survive in a vacuum to some degree, so the real question is who would be able to knock the other so far into space they won't have a chance of getting back to the asteroid? It can go either way, but I say Abomination would club Juggie into next Tuesday. He doesn't have to knock him out, just send him so far off the rock he's forever at the mercy of space.

IN SPACE, NO ONE CAN HEAR JUGGIE SCREAM!

WINNER: ABOMINATION

hippy fascist

01-09-2007, 01:54 PM

Based on the above, Sampson having been turned into a vegetable by Cable has only one hope, falling on a self destruct mechanism that causes planet M to explode.......yes, yes I know He loses :(

Well done Hippy

You are as always, a true gentleman :up:

Phaedrus45

01-09-2007, 02:07 PM

hippy fascist

01-09-2007, 02:20 PM

Spiderman (going into this i couldn't see a way for spidey to win but jewhobs convinced me! I'm willing to bet every door on that place is an airlock)

Mimic (I love may, but she'd get pwned by mimic)

Cable

Juggernaut (Hard but in the end the abomination has some resistance to the vacuum of space, juggs doesn't need to breathe. Nine times out of ten Juggs is gonna win this one)

DarkHellRider

01-09-2007, 02:25 PM

Mimic- just has the advantage with all his powers
Doc-strength is the advantage so he could take it
Jugernaut_my character
spider-man-his intelligence overall would give him the edge and the win IMO

Phaedrus45

01-09-2007, 02:25 PM

*Dragon Man

*Juggernaut-Villian

*Mimic-Exiles

*Cable-telepath

Harlekin

01-09-2007, 02:37 PM

Spider-Man - Great debate, but I think the whole space thing works in Spidey's favour.
Juggernaut
Mimic (Exiles)
Cable

wiegeabo

01-09-2007, 02:52 PM

Spider-Man
Juggernaut
Mimic (eXiles) (He took out Spidey in the first round last season. Now he gets his daughter)
Cable

WOLVERINE25TH

01-09-2007, 03:10 PM

Spidey
Abomination
Spidey
Cable

kytrigger

01-09-2007, 03:21 PM

Dragon Man-great debate
Juggy
Mimic
Cable

Hellstormer

01-09-2007, 03:48 PM

Mimic
Cable (I think part of me is slightly biased but I'm positive he'd win)
Dragon Man
Juggernaut

Phaedrus45

01-09-2007, 03:59 PM

Results So Far:

Spider-Man currently beating Dragon Man 5-3
Juggernaut currently beating Abomination 7-1
Mimic currently beating Spider-Girl 7-1
Cable currently beating Doc Samson 7-1

Zoken

01-09-2007, 04:13 PM

Cable
Spider-Girl
Juggy
Spider-Man

Darren Daring

01-10-2007, 04:32 PM

Spider-Man
Juggernaut
Mimic
Cable

JewishHobbit

01-10-2007, 07:48 PM

Spider-Man
Juggernaut
Mimic
Cable

Ahura Mazda

01-11-2007, 03:23 AM

Spider-Man
Juggernaut
Mimic
Cable

primemover

01-11-2007, 03:30 AM

Dragon Man
Juggernaut
Mimic
Cable

Iceman

01-11-2007, 06:46 AM

Dragon Man - Spidey's got the brains but I don't know if it'll be enough. I think the whole space thing would be very hard to pull off.
Juggernaut - Wow I want to see this. Juggy's long term endurance would tell.
Mimic - easy victory.
Cable - awesome character who should do well depending on the draw.

Midnight Ice

01-11-2007, 07:05 AM

Spider-Man - I was going Dragon Man but the debates swayed me. Great job to both of you!
Juggernaut
Mimic
Cable

Phaedrus45

01-11-2007, 11:08 AM

Final Results:

Spider-Man beat Dragon Man 10-5
Juggernaut beat Abomination 14-1
Mimic beat Spider-Girl 13-2
Cable beat Doc Samson 14-1

Hellstormer

01-11-2007, 04:18 PM

Yea Mimic rules.

hippy fascist

01-11-2007, 04:20 PM

Yea Mimic rules.

gonna get owned by cable though! :D

Hellstormer

01-11-2007, 04:33 PM

gonna get owned by cable though! :D
O yea just like all those Broods owned him on their homeworld...o wait they didn't!:p

Phaedrus45

01-12-2007, 11:42 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg

BRACKET 1,

Match 25:

Super Sabre (JEWISHHOBBIT) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/supersabre.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Supersabre.jpg

vs.

Unus The Untouchable (WIEGEABO) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/unus.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_unus.gif

Match 26:

Ghost Rider - Johnny Blaze(DarkHellRider) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Rider)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_ghostrideri.jpg

vs.

Husk - AoA (ICEMAN/PSYLOCKE) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/alternatex/aoa/husk.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_180px-Xmen_AOApokalipse_FinalVersio.jpg

Phaedrus45

01-12-2007, 12:40 PM

BRACKET 2,

Match 25:

Shard - Hologram (JEWISHHOBBIT) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/shard.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_250px-X-factor147.jpg

vs.

Captain America (WOLVERINE25TH) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_America)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_captainamerica.gif

Match 26:

Guardian - Mac Hudson (POWDERMAN) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/guardian.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_guardian.jpg

vs.

Spider-Woman - Jessica Drew (MIDNIGHT ICE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Woman_%28Jessica_Drew%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_300px-Spider-Woman_28Jessica_Drew29.jpg

Phaedrus45

01-12-2007, 12:52 PM

LOCATION: Baxter Building

Located at 42nd Street (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42nd_Street) and Madison Avenue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madison_Avenue) in New York City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City), it had been built in 1949 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949) by the Leland Baxter Paper Company. Originally designed as a high-rise industrial site to accommodate pulp recycling machinery to serve the mid-Manhattan area, each floor height is 24 feet.
The building's steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel) frame construction utilized the first application of "K bracing" in the world and is one of the strongest structures of its kind. The Baxter Building is located a few city blocks from the United Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) Building. Reed Richards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Richards) has applied for many land-use zone variations to allow massive reconstruction of the top five floors for the installation of a heavily-silenced silo, with a muffled rocket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket).
The design of the headquarters of the Fantastic Four is along strictly utilitarian lines, except for apartments and public areas. All aspects of the design are constantly being improved, including security. For example, windows are 2 ft thick composites of various glasses and plastics which are mirrored on the outside. Solid, armored, exterior walls are also mirror-clad and are indistinguishable from transparent sections.
The top five sections of the Baxter Building are completely airtight; all doors are airlocks. Complete environmental support (including atmosphere) is provided by the area between elevators 2, 3, and 4 on all floors. The building's steel-alloy framework is rigid enough to be stood on one corner and not collapse (It was suggested that the Baxter Building did not collapse under its' own weight due to the use of tactile telekinesis by Gladiator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladiator_%28comics%29) of the Sh'iar Imperial Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sh%27iar_Imperial_Guard&action=edit). Reed himself stated that even with the reinforced structure, it should not be possible otherwise).
The buffer-zone is the interface between the top five floors and the lower levels. It provides a rapid-disconnect between upper and lower segments of building. It contains an array of large oil-rams to dampen any oscillations between the five upper levels and the base of the building. The buffer-zone contains some support equipment for the upper levels, but mostly it is the "mechanical floor," which provides heating, ventilation, air-conditioning and elevator support equipment for the lower 30 stories.

(The matches will take place in the Baxter Building. But, if your characters are hindered by the location due to size or anything, I will allow the battle to be around or on top of the Baxter Building. Just let JH or me know if you think the location doesn't suit your character, and JH or I will determine if you can take the battle outside. Also, some characters might be prone to destroying the building; so, this match may have to resume outside if the building is destroyed...and, the participant(s) aren't killed in the process.)

JewishHobbit

01-12-2007, 11:16 PM

Super Sabre Vs Unus the Untouchable

Okay, this is an interesting match. Here's what it breaks down to:

Super Sabre is a speedster and highly experienced. He was a World War II Hero turne vigilante. Before his death he worked for the government and with Mystique in Freedom Force (formerly the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants). So that would be his time frame. He would have next to no information about the Baxter Building.

Unus has a forcefield around him that can protect him. He's been a long time foe of the X-Men, though he vanished for a long while while thought dead (note, during Silver Sabre's time in what little spotlight he was in). He returned to Genosha after it's destruction and lived there until M-Day. This version would be Pre M-Day so he'd be good right up to it. He is also very brash acting and isn't one to always think things through. He's kind of a brute with a god complex. He also would have no information on the Baxter Building.

Now there's kind of a stale mate in terms of these characters in that neither would have any special way of finding one another. Unus isn't fast enough to tag Super Sabre and Super Sabre can't physically hurt Unus due to his shield. If Unus can somehow catch Sabre, he could physically fight him, but Sabre isn't bad in hand to hand himself, so it'd be a decent match. Sabre can fight Unus without touching him though with his special traits, such as punching air in front of Unus and letting the shockwaves knock him back, etc. These would throw Unus around, but they won't take him out. Therefor, since there's not much either can do, it's about creativity, preparation, and location.

Okay, Unus might be able to find info on Sabre, but it'll be tough. Remember, Sabre's time was while Unus was out of the picture, probably in some type of coma. Sabre's a War hero, but I don't think he was world renoun, so it'd be hard to get info there. Also, Unus is in Genosha. There's little to no technology there to work with, so he's limited to his own resources, which aren't many.

Sabre on the other hand will have Freedom Force's government files to work with. At his time, Unus had been a member of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (something that Feedom Force had once been, though not Sabre himself) and so it would be obvious that he has info on him, though he would think him dead, as many did. Either way, he's still have all the info he'd need to prepare. I don't think this will help win the match, but at least he'll go in better knowing.

Now location. Unus, if he can catch Sabre, can rough him around a bit, but this is an extremely difficult task, as he'd have to catch him. It's very hard to do that with a speedster when you have no additional speed yourself. Sabre can fight Unus using his impact tactics, but it will only go so far. But if I could easily thought of this, I know an experienced veteran like Sabre can. He can't physically take out Unus, so he'll have to think outside of the box. Now it's obvious that things such as sound, light, and smell get through the forcefield, so he'll have to figure out how to make that work.

He's familiar with weapons, so he'll probably bring things along, such as flash grenades, sonic type of granades and such, knock out gasses, etc. Basically the type of stuff he'd have access to through the military government. I think that will be how he fights this round. He'll be quick and using his force punches to get Unus where he wants him. He'll stay out of Unus' touch by staying way ahead of him, and he'll use things such as flash grenades and things to take hom out. I think the final victory would come when the other punches and weapons get him into a room, and he'll close the door, but just before he does he lights several smoke bombs or whatever gas it is that knocks people out. If Unus can breath, then the stuff can get through... and when it does, Unus is out and Suber Sabre wins.

Winner - Super Sabre

JewishHobbit

01-12-2007, 11:31 PM

Shard Vs Captain America

Okay, this could be a very interesting match. Captain America will most probably have little information on Shard, as she was kept fairly minimal while with X-Factor, and most of her time with them was while they were not with the government, so though he may be able to get something from her, I doubt it's much. Shard on the other hand woudl know all about Cap, as he's a hero and everyone knows Cap. She was a soldier from the future and since she worked for the government both there, and in current times, I'm sure she's read up all about Cap. It wouldn't be hard.

Okay, that said, everyone knows Cap, so I'll mention some about Shard. She's a living hologram matrix. She can faze like kitty pride (and remain in stated form), and she can appear and disappear, in essence, teleporting. She can also fire off light blasts that are pretty potent. She's also an expert hand to hand fighter and well trained in guns and such.

Now I don't see the guns being a major factor here as Cap eats them for lunch. She may be able to hold her own in physical combat, but that's up to debate. Her main powers that will help are that she can teleport and phase. I won't go into it long, as I'm tired and need to get to bed, but I think either way this will end up in a physical confrontation. Cap could take her if she was always solid (Sabretooth took her out while solid, but he surprised her and all of X-Factor so she had no time to prepare. She'll be ready for this). She will be intangable for the entire fight, as she doesn't need to come back up for breath, and she doesn't need to be physical to fire off her blasts. She will simply remain phased, knowing that Cap is the best hand to hand fighter there is. That takes away Cap's advantage of fighting and his shield. She can also teleport quickly, so she will appear and reappear, attacking with blasts and such. I'm sure he can take the attacks for a while, but eventually they'll run him down. Shard is smart and calculated and she's a trained soldier. She will know to keep on the offensive and keep Cap on the defensive and to utilize her powers to keep him off center. Honestly, I don't see how Cap can even hurt her or touch her. She's untouchable, being that she's going into this match suspecting and knowing what's coming and can prepare for it. Her blasts are fairly powerful, not enough to take him out easily I'd say, but enough to where they'll do the job after a short while. He's been warn out and beaten by less. In the end, Shard will take down Captain America, and he can't hide, run, or get away, as she can just appear before him or behind him or beside him or at a distance from him, and keep the attack coming strong. She'll hound him until he falls and he can't even take the offensive because none of his physical attacks will do squat.

Winner - Shard

DarkHellRider

01-14-2007, 12:55 AM

Ghost Rider - Johnny Blaze(DarkHellRider) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_Rider)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_ghostrideri.jpg

vs.

Husk - AoA (ICEMAN/PSYLOCKE) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/alternatex/aoa/husk.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_180px-Xmen_AOApokalipse_FinalVersio.jpg

ok finnaly I get to use ghost rider my fav character.

His powers are as followed:

Abilities Supernatural strength and physical resistance,
Ability to project both regular and ethereal flame,
Ability to travel between realms,
Wields magical chain
Flame motorcycle:
Ability to travel along any surface

Since we are in a building that does not mean that ghost rider will not use his motorycycle or his fire. Husk will not be able to hurt ghost rider as he can not be hurt by physical means. she can but she can remove the damaged part by peeling it off. So his fire would not be much help unless he used his hellfire which does not hurt the body but the sould and no matter how hard one tries you can not tear away the soul like a piece of skin.

Most people this is used against pass out from the pain and ghost rider would not want to kill her.

ghost rider just has this match won with his physical resistence.

wiegeabo

01-14-2007, 06:42 PM

JewishHobbit

01-14-2007, 07:59 PM

Unus the Untouchable vs Super Sabre

Prep-Time won't help either character here. I don't think they've ever been in the Baxter Building, or have heard of the other one. Maybe they could find some newspaper articles on their opponent or something. But at most it would tell Unus that Sabre is a speedster, and tell Sabre that Unus can make something like forcefields.

As I stated in my write up, Sabre has government information as well as whatever he can get from Freedom Force's files. Unus was a member of the Brotherhood, which is fairly high profile. Sabre should be able to get info on Unus and know how his powers have worked in the past.

Sabre can use his speed to attack directly, or create 'sonic booms', or probably just throw things at Unus at superspeed. But Unus can repel any attack with his field. So direct attacks and throwing things won't work. The sonic booms sound like a good tactic, except that Unus can protect himself from the mass of air striking him. And if he can protect himself from the air, he'll block the sound of the attack (sound is just air moving at certain frequencies). So Sabre can't even hurt Unus' ears.

Here's the thing... Unus won't know how Sabre will attack him, so though he may be able to block out things like sound, that severely hinders him as suddenly he's lost a common sense and can't hear what's going on around him. He can do it, but it'll hinder him as well.

This also means that any technology that Sabre finds, and can figure out how to use, won't work on Unus since his forcefield can even protect him from energy blasts. But, Sabre has no such protection from any tech that Unus finds and figures out how to use.

Honestly, I don't think Richards' tech is a factor of this match. Neither character are prone to use it, so I don't think it will be.

The lucky punch always seems to be a valid strategy against speedsters. Especially when they're over confident. All Unus has to do is pretend that Sabre is hurting him through his forcefield. This will provoke Sabre into pressing the advantage and stay in close to throw more punches. When the time is right, Unus stops pretending to be hurt and starts swinging back. With his field protecting his arms, and being a highly skilled fighter/wrestler, a solid punch by Unus will put Sabre down. At least long enough for Unus to finish the job.

A lucky punch could do Unus some good, but remember that Sabre is a highly experienced military combatant trained with the best that WWII had to offer. He's a strategic thinker also. He's not a cocky character and knows what he's doing. A punk from a wrestling ring won't be able to get a hand on the guy. Unus has experience, but nowhere near as much as Sabre does. The idea of Unus playing possom actually isn't half bad, but the thing is, Sabre has great connections and Unus is a fairly known face to things like the government. Sabre would know that his punches wont' work and I doubt he'd even try.

Or Unus can turn Sabre's speed against him. Again, it starts with deceit as Unus fakes being hurt, and allows himself to be pushed back against an outer wall, next to a window. When he gets in position, Unus just turns his field up all the way and when Sabre rushes back in, Unus deflects him right out the window, watching him fall down a couple of dozen stories to the street below.

Again, not a bad idea, but not something Sabre would do. He'd know that Unus is untouchable and has a massively strong forcefield. He isn't stupid enough to just run into a wall, so he won't run into Unus.

Another method is just to let Sabre tire himself out. It really doesn't take much effort for Unus to put up a super strong field (he shrugged off attacks from the X-Men in their first encounter as if they were nothing). He can just let Sabre exhaust himself. And when Sabre is finally tired out, Unus finishes the job.

This could work, I'll grant that one, but he'll have to keep himself conscious as well. You're thinking that Sabre can't do anything, but he's a military man and, as I said, would know Unus and will have 24 hours to think how to get around the force field. The knock out gas, flash grenades, sonic thingies, etc are what he'll come prepared with.

The point is that Sabre can't really do anything to hurt Unus, while, if nothing else, Unus only needs one shot to take Sabre out of the fight.

Unus the Untouchable wins

As stated above, and in my write up, Sabre can bring the fight to Unus and have it effective. He's got more experience, more resources, and an effective power (speed) to pull it all together. Unus is tough, and his forcefield is formitable, but we've seen time and again in the past, there's ways around it, and Sabre will get around it.

Winner - Super Sabre

Iceman

01-15-2007, 04:48 AM

HUSK (AoA) Vs GHOST RIDER

Powers
Husk was effectively an omni-morph, able to turn her body into almost any form of matter or energy. To effect the change she would rip off the outer layer of her skin, revealing a new form underneath, hence the codename "Husk."

Johnny Blaze - When transformed, Blaze's motorcycle would catch fire. He could later create a cycle from pure hellfire. Hellfire is a supernatural flame which burns the soul and not the body, typically punishing the victim with a cold fire. He could project hellfire as a weapon. In Ghost Rider form he seems to display supernatural strength and resilience. Blaze could perform supernatural stunts on his cycle, which would destroy a normal motorcycle, including extreme jumps. Later, Blaze developed Dan Ketch's powers in addition to his own, with control over the "Penance Stare" and ability to manipulate an enchanted chain. He also gained new abilities such as breathing hellfire and spewing out chains from either his throat or chest, and the ability to travel between the corporal and material planes.

Both characters are almost completely resistant to physical blows (in ghost rider / mutated form) so a physical fight will not get anywhere fast. GR has the advantage with some additional methods of attack - the use of his Hellfire and the penance stare.

Location
The Baxter building provides numerous hiding places for Paige. By converting her skin to resemble the walls of the building she can camouflage herself to avoid detection if GR is ever in the immediate area until he leaves. She will know that her best bet is to use stealth and avoid confrontation while looking for anything that can help her such as Reed's gadgets & weaponry (Ultimate Nullifier would come in handy :yay: ). Husk will not attempt any aggressive maneuvers until she is attacked so GR will be taken out or at least hampered severely by the security systems. The building is likely to have some king of defence against GR's Hellfire and a depowering facility somewhere within its security system when it detects the presence of an unknown demonic entity and this is likely to force GR to revert to human form at some point and become vulnerable. If these measures weren't included in the security systems, even the FF would be unable to defend their home from any similar demonic characters.

Prep time
Ghost Rider will be unable to find anything on Husk being from the AoA. However, information on Ghost Rider will be available for her to use. She will know that although she is resistant to most of his attacks (aside from Hellfire or penance stare) she has to either find a way to force him back to his human form where he is vulnerable or use special weapons on him.

CONCLUSION
Husk needs to use stealth to stay out the way of GR's Hellfire until she can find a way (or is helped out by the security systems) to finish him or get him into human form if she is to win this fight.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/8939/huskuxmss8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

WINNER = HUSK (AoA)

DarkHellRider

01-15-2007, 12:49 PM

[QUOTE=Iceman/Psylocke;10973397]HUSK (AoA) Vs GHOST RIDER

Powers

Both characters are almost completely resistant to physical blows (in ghost rider / mutated form) so a physical fight will not get anywhere fast. GR has the advantage with some additional methods of attack - the use of his Hellfire and the penance stare.

Location
The Baxter building provides numerous hiding places for Paige. By converting her skin to resemble the walls of the building she can camouflage herself to avoid detection if GR is ever in the immediate area until he leaves. She will know that her best bet is to use stealth and avoid confrontation while looking for anything that can help her such as Reed's gadgets & weaponry (Ultimate Nullifier would come in handy :yay: ). Husk will not attempt any aggressive maneuvers until she is attacked so GR will be taken out or at least hampered severely by the security systems. The building is likely to have some king of defence against GR's Hellfire and a depowering facility somewhere within its security system when it detects the presence of an unknown demonic entity and this is likely to force GR to revert to human form at some point and become vulnerable. If these measures weren't included in the security systems, even the FF would be unable to defend their home from any similar demonic characters.

Prep time
Ghost Rider will be unable to find anything on Husk being from the AoA. However, information on Ghost Rider will be available for her to use. She will know that although she is resistant to most of his attacks (aside from Hellfire or penance stare) she has to either find a way to force him back to his human form where he is vulnerable or use special weapons on him.

CONCLUSION
Husk needs to use stealth to stay out the way of GR's Hellfire until she can find a way (or is helped out by the security systems) to finish him or get him into human form if she is to win this fight.

HIding would not Really help her if ghost rider is near bye he has the ability to sense evil since she has killes people and had evil intent in the futur towards the x-men he could easily sense her then its all about wrapping her tight with the magical chain which can not be destroyed and sear her soul with the peneance stare.

Also when it comes to the security system even if in a amll hallway or room ghost rider can still use his bike to be fast enoguh to avoid being distracted byt the security system.

Iceman

01-15-2007, 01:52 PM

HIding would not Really help her if ghost rider is near bye he has the ability to sense evil since she has killes people and had evil intent in the futur towards the x-men he could easily sense her then its all about wrapping her tight with the magical chain which can not be destroyed and sear her soul with the peneance stare.

Also when it comes to the security system even if in a amll hallway or room ghost rider can still use his bike to be fast enoguh to avoid being distracted byt the security system.Good point on the close range hiding. I'll concede that. If Paige is to use stealth she needs to keep this in mind (which she should be aware of from the information she has obtained) and keep moving until she is ready to take him on.

As for use of the bike inside the building, it doesn't seem at all practical and more importantly the security systems aren't merely doors that close quickly (a bike might be useful if they were) but some of the most advanced defences against all kinds of creatures including aliens from the genius mind of Reed Richards. As long as Paige keeps moving she is a lot more likely to avoid being incapacitated by the security systems with her subtlety, than a demonic creature on a flaming motorbike.

DarkHellRider

01-16-2007, 12:32 PM

ok true the bike is a little inpractical. But any security system he would come up agaist he could esaily destroy it with hellfire or pretect himslf with his chains. unless like you said there is a poewr nullifier which is unlikey to work since ghost rider is neither a mutant or a superhuman. He is a a demon so unless reed has a demonic nullifier true he is smart but I can think that reed would realize that a demon of the ghost rider persona to be walking around in his building. so all in all ghost rider could take this,

Winner= Ghost rider

Iceman

01-16-2007, 12:49 PM

REBUTTAL: HUSK (AoA) Vs GHOST RIDER

ok true the bike is a little inpractical. But any security system he would come up agaist he could esaily destroy it with hellfire or pretect himslf with his chains. unless like you said there is a poewr nullifier which is unlikey to work since ghost rider is neither a mutant or a superhuman. He is a a demon so unless reed has a demonic nullifier true he is smart but I can think that reed would realize that a demon of the ghost rider persona to be walking around in his building. so all in all ghost rider could take this,

Winner= Ghost rider

The FF have faced demons such as Shuma-Gorath in the past and should therefore have some form of defence against demonic entities built into their security system (especially against those with a human host). If anyone has the resources and brains to come up with this it is Reed Richards. Paige just needs to evade GR for long enough for him to fall victim to it.

Any other location and Ghost Rider would take this.

WINNER = HUSK (AoA)

Phaedrus45

01-16-2007, 02:06 PM

Voting May Begin!!!

hippy fascist

01-16-2007, 02:19 PM

Unus (Can't be hurt)
Ghost Rider (Anti-demon defences are HIGHLY unlikely)
Shard (You debate you win)
Mac Hudson (Overpowered)

kytrigger

01-16-2007, 02:43 PM

Unus- tough match to call, but his forcefield is just too tough IMO
Ghost Rider- good debate, but GR is too powerful
Shard
Guardian

wiegeabo

01-16-2007, 02:45 PM

Unus
Ghost Rider
Shard (Darn shame if Cap can't make it passed the first round)
Guardian

Iceman

01-16-2007, 02:59 PM

Shard - Even though there was no debate for Cap I wasn't going to let him get voted out without a decent debate for Shard. Luckily there was one.
Unus
Guardian
Husk (AoA)

Phaedrus45

01-16-2007, 03:09 PM

*Unus - (This really is a match that should be a draw. But, we have to pick someone.)

*Ghost Rider

*Captain America - (Rare that I go against the "you debate, you win" theory...but, Cap has been to the Baxter Building so many times, has SHIELD clearance, and would know something about Shard, since she was here long enough, IMO. I really don't believe Shard would survive this.)

*Guardian - (Too bad...in this case, Midnight probably only had to put up a debate to win.)

Zoken

01-16-2007, 05:17 PM

Unus
Ghost Rider
Shard
Guardian.

Hellstormer

01-16-2007, 05:34 PM

Unus

Ghost Rider

Shard

Guardian

Phaedrus45

01-16-2007, 05:50 PM

Results So Far:

Unus the Untouchable currently beating Super Sabre 7-0
Ghost Rider-Johnny currently beating Husk-AoA 6-1
Shard currently beating Captain America 6-1
Guardian currently beating Spider-Woman 7-0

JewishHobbit

01-16-2007, 07:48 PM

Super Sabre (I'm really surprised by this :()
Ghost Rider (Johnny)
Shard
Guardian

DarkHellRider

01-16-2007, 11:25 PM

Supersabre
Captain America
Ghost Rider- tough debate this week one of the toughest
Guardian

primemover

01-17-2007, 12:43 AM

Unus
Ghost Rider
Shard
Guardian

Phaedrus45

01-17-2007, 10:19 AM

Results So Far:

Unus the Untouchable currently beating Super Sabre 8-2
Ghost Rider-Johnny currently beating Husk-AoA 9-1
Shard currently beating Captain America 8-2
Guardian currently beating Spider-Woman 10-0

Harlekin

01-17-2007, 10:34 AM

Super-Sabre
Ghost Rider
Shard
Guardian

Ahura Mazda

01-18-2007, 03:01 AM

Unus - impenetrable force field
Ghost Rider
Shard - against logic
Guardian

Phaedrus45

01-18-2007, 10:15 AM

Final Results:

Unus the Untouchable beat Super Sabre 9-3
Ghost Rider-Johnny beat Husk-AoA 11-1
Shard beat Captain America 10-2
Guardian beat Spider-Woman 12-0

Phaedrus45

01-18-2007, 05:07 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg

BRACKET 1,

Match 27:

Banshee (HIPPY FASCIST) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banshee_%28comics%29)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Banshee.jpg

vs.

Constrictor (WIEGEABO) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constrictor_%28comics%29)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Constrictor_Head.jpg

Match 28:

Hannibal King (HELLSTORMER) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_King)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_kinghannibal-1.gif

vs.

Thunderball (POWDERMAN) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderball_%28comics%29)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Thunderball.jpg

Phaedrus45

01-18-2007, 06:18 PM

Phaedrus45

01-18-2007, 06:23 PM

Location: Spartak (Inside the Microverse)

Here is a description of the area and a link to a website about it:

http://beyondheroes2.tripod.com/spartak.htm

In the dim past a race of farmers were driven from their homeworld, wandering as fugitives for hundreds of years as exiles among the stars. Finally they found the harsh forbidding sentient world of stone which invited them to settle. In time its harshness bred the fiercest warriors of the Microverse. Each generation the Worldmind, the very soul of the planet sends a herald comet to designate a new king of the Acroyears. The Worldmind willingly allowed itself to be sacrificed in Karza's defeat as it felt the Acroyears had become too harsh a race.

Orbit/Climate: Extremely erratic, retrograde, elliptical orbit, unpredictable, harsh and violent temperature changes.
Atmosphere: Standard glacial Oxygen/Nitrogen with minimal Carbon dioxide and high ozone.
Oceans: Solid land with no surface water/liquid.
Gravity: 100%
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/report.php?p=10999462) http://www.superherohype.com/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

Hellstormer

01-18-2007, 06:58 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg

Match 28:

Hannibal King (HELLSTORMER) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_King)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_kinghannibal-1.gif

vs.

Thunderball (POWDERMAN) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderball_%28comics%29)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Thunderball.jpgOk Powderman's not here so my debate won't be remarkable but I like Hannibal King and I won't loose him.

So information wise Hannibal King may be able to get scraps form his "sources", but Thunderball, even with the genius level intellect, won't be able to get anything because of Hannibal secretive nature.

Power wise Thunderball really has nothing that will devastate Hannibal. In fact they have the same powers but HK's got more. They both have superstrength and HK's pretty smart, Thunderball may have that over him, but HK can also regenerate, fly, turn into a werewolf, or mist. Face it Thunder's toast.

Winner=Hannibal King

Ahura Mazda

01-19-2007, 04:40 AM

BRACKET 2,

Match 27:

Scarlet Witch (AHURA MAZDA) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlet_Witch)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_scarletwitch.jpg

vs.

Karolina Dean (DARTHPHERE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karolina_Dean)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_250px-Karolina.png

The first thing to get out of the way is the Scarlet Witches' powers.

Scarlet Witch in action, employing magic to augment her mutant hex, art by George Perez and Sam Grainger.Her hexes have a wide, almost limitless variety of recorded and possible effects, though they often boil down to a kind of Deus Ex Machina superpower.

They have been known to alter the molecular composition and physical state of physical objects, negate or distort physical laws, and to cause various forms of energy to spontaneously appear or disappear.
She has an affinity with natural elements and phenomena, stemming largely from her magical training under Agatha Harkness, and
has trained often at using her hexes to deflect projectiles or to cause
enemies to stumble or otherwise suffer the effects of "bad luck".

I am not quite clear on the extent of her powers for this match but before the retconn where she was gioven reality powers enough to change the earth she had been powerful enough to resurrect Wonder Man.

Karolina Dean is an alien lesbian who can manipulate solar energy creating shields and producing kinetic energy. This is all very good but will not serve her at all for she has no protection against the magic that the Scarlet Witch yields.

With regard to prep time, the Scarlet Witch could use her Avenger resources (this is pre-Bendis retconn and if it is not then I have a whole another strategy which involves deleting all of dean's powers ;) ) to find some information on on the battle grounds but she will have none on Dean.

In this situation, as soon as the Scarlet Witch sees Karolina, she can have her swatted out of the air, hit her head on the ground, change her organically (even though I doubt she would do that), cause one of her bolts to backfire knocking herself out....basically a million different things that Wanda can do from which Karolina has no defence.

Just to push the point further, Wanda is also a trainned fighter who has very strong hand to hand fighting skills and is used to doing battle on a cosmic scale.

Winner - Wanda the Scarlet Witch

Iceman

01-19-2007, 01:25 PM

OPENING COMMENTS: BARON KARZA Vs KING COBRA

Baron Karza (ICEMAN/PSYLOCKE) bio (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/baronkarzamv.htm)

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/53491064630.4.gif (http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=53491064630%204)

vs.

King Cobra (POWDERMAN) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_%28comics%29)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Kingcobra.jpg Powers
Baron Karza was initially a normal human from the Microverse. He was a cunning master strategist with tremendous long-term vision and an escape plan for defeat, including physical resurrection. He was able to influence others by appealing to their base and negative aspects, but was quite prepared to rescind any alliance to further his own ends. He was egotistical, arrogant and ruthless, and craved power and knowledge, as well as the acquisition of new and alien technologies that could augment his own powers.
He was aware of his malignant behavior and increasingly embraced his evil nature, becoming power mad and genocidal in his quest for domination over life. He had the ability to transfer his mind into a formidable suit of armor, effectively becoming something akin to a cyborg through the merging of man and machine. Ultimately, it was only his mental energy that remained, which required a host body in order to function in the physical world. Each 'resurrection' left him more malevolent with no conscience about the murder and mutilation of entire races. He had advanced knowledge of mutating people, subverting their will until they became his servants, with some being unrecognizable in their new form; he sacrificed millions to his bloody Body Banks that harvested limbs and bodies to extend people's lives (for a price) or create new minions. He briefly wielded the incredible Uni-power (which temporarily transformed his ebon armor to white), but he rejected the neutrality it came with in favor of his greedy human emotional desire for conquest; this left him mortal and totally reliant on his armor. He was an excellent hand-to-hand combatant, but relied on his armor for attack and defense, and displayed incredible will power and psi-powers.
His black armor was derived from alien races in the Microverse and included an extremely powerful force field that he could mentally activate instantly; this covered all his armor's capabilities. He had four cannons mounted across his chest that could atomize humans (but send Microverse natives on Earth back to the Microverse). His large red buckle mounted on his mid riff could fire similarly destructive blasts, as could his gloves. His eyes fired red fiercely concussive beams, as well as nervous shock blasts, although he could also extract knowledge from other people's minds. His gauntlets could be fired and controlled mentally (short range) which he used to pummel others or strangle victims to death. Notably, he was able to transform into a fast and powerful centaur form with engines/blasters mounted on his flanks, plus a metallic spiked tail. Karza had a personal teleportation facility, which was likely short-range. He had also used a power saber.King Cobra

Very flexible and slithery body,
Superhuman strength and reflexes,
Wall crawling,
Various poisonous gadgetsThis is a massive mismatch and Karza simply has to take his pick of hundreds of possible strategies to victory. King Cobra has no way of making an impact in this fight.

Location
Baron Karza rules this place. This HUUUUGE advantage is at least on a par with Mr Fantastic taking on opponents at the Baxter building (shame it's wasted in round 1 really :csad:)

Prep time
Karza would also dominate here.

Conclusion
100% Karza

WINNER = BARON KARZA

wiegeabo

01-21-2007, 01:42 AM

Constrictor vs Banshee

With regards to information, I don't think either character will find more than basic information about the other, if they can even find anything at all.

At first, I thought Constrictor had little chance against Banshee. Sure, if Constrictor could get hold of Sean with his adamantium tenticles, then the Irishman would be finished. Payne could crush, smash, electrify, or just rip Banshee apart.

The problem is, Sean could easily keep out of Payne's 30 foot range and bombard him with a variety of sonic attacks. What could Constrictor possibly do?

Well, interesting fact. Constrictor's tenticles are no longer made from adamantium. They're made from vibranium! And what does vibranium do? It absorbs virbration and sound! In fact, Constrictor's tenticles are designed with an aura that surpresses sound. And if he gets a tenticle around someone's throat, their voice cannot be heard.

This means, that through luck of the draw, Banshee is facing a character whose main weapon counteracts his main weapon. Any sonic attacks he throws at Constrictor, Payne will be able to block/absorb/surpress. If Payne gets a tenticle around Sean's neck, he'll cut off his voice, taking his power away completely (besides being able to manhandle Banshee into submission).

Banshee's only advantage is being able to keep his distance in the air. But there's not much he'll be able to do from up their besides dodge whatever Constrictor throws at him with his coils. Even in this situation, eventually Sean will tire, and Payne will be able to finish the fight.

Constrictor wins.

hippy fascist

01-21-2007, 04:27 PM

Banshee Vs Constrictor

http://xmen.altervista.org/images/banshee02.jpg

Ok, this was always going to be a tricky match for banshee. His powers are based around sound and constrictors whips cancel sound. Sounds like an uphill strugle but I think there is a way for banshee to win.

First let's go over his powers:

Banshee's superhumanly powerful lungs, throat and vocal cords could produce a sonic scream for various effects, in concert with limited, reflexive psionic powers which directed his sonic vibrations. He could hover or fly at the speed of sound, and could carry at least one passenger. He could overwhelm listeners with deafening noise, stun them with tight-focus low-frequency sonic blasts (effective even against shielded ears by penetrating the skull via bone conduction), plunge them into a hypnotic trance, disorient them,nauseate them, or simply render them unconscious. Using sonic waves, he could rapidly vibrate himself or other masses at will. He could generate sonic blasts which struck with tremendous concussive force, liquefying or outright disintegrating targets at his highest levels of power. By radiating sound waves outward and reading the feedback, he could locate and analyze unseen objects in a sonar-like fashion. By modulating his scream's harmonics, he could confuse most scanning equipment. He could instinctively analyze, replicate, and block sonic waves or vibrations from other sources.
Banshee generated a psionic field which protected him from the detrimental effects of his sonic vibrations, though his sonic powers could still injure him when pushed beyond safe limits. His physiology seemed fully vulnerable to conventional injury when his sonic powers were not engaged. Banshee had selective hearing, enabling him to focus upon, enhance, or totally block out any given sound in his environment; this shielded him from the deafening sound of his own screams, and made him a superhumanly acute eavesdropper in surveillance situations. Sean and his cousin Black Tom were immune to each other's natural mutant energy powers, though Sean's immunity did not extend to the new powers Tom later developed via artificial mutations.
A gifted detective, veteran undercover operative, and formidable unarmed combatant, Cassidy was an excellent marksman and a competent amateur machinesmith, well-versed in combat strategy & tactics and teamwork drills. An effective educator, organizer and lobbyist, he was also an avid American country music aficionado and skillful amateur piano player. As Cassidy, he wielded conventional firearms, sometimes loaded with explosive "micro-bombs." As Banshee, he wore synthetic costuming designed to resist air friction, usually including underarm wings that helped him glide on air currents and his own sonic waves.
As a way of compensating for his powers, Banshee had a high resistance to intense sound and highly enhanced hearing.
Banshee was also immune to his cousin Black Tom's energy blasts.
The "ribbons" on Banshee's costume (a visual trademark of the character) aid him in his flight.

The key to this fight will be his flight and concussive blasts.

Banshee is known for his sleuthing skills and, taking into account constrictors affiliations with the masters of evil, as a result finding info on constrictor shouldn't be too much of a problem. As a result of this banshee will be ready for this fight and fully aware of constrictors powers.

Now on to how he can win.

By flying outside of constrictors range (about 30 metres) banshee will be able to completely avoid constrictors coils. Knowing that constrictor cannot target him from this range banshee will be able to take his time with this fight. While the coils do cancel out sound in their imediate viscinity this is a fairly limited area of effect meaning banshee can use his concussive blasts on the surrounding terrain. With the craggy mountainous surface of the area providing plenty of ammo banshee can simply blow up large rock formations sending them constrictors way. Constrictor may be able to break up a few of these rocks before they hit him but since banshee can fight all day from up in the sky with little or no risk from constrictor it will simply be a case of waiting for constrictor to slip up as one rock getting through his defences would be enough to knock him out resulting in an end to the fight.Remember, constrictor is not super strong or durable so a single rock would be enough to incapacitate him. Also if banshee targets an area close to constrictor (but outside the vibranium's range) he could simply open a crack in the ground swallowing constrictor up and killing him, or at least taking him out of the match. Either way constrictor's toast.

At first this match seemed impossible for me to win but with a little lateral thinking (something banshee is famous for) and easy route to victory has arisen.

WINNER: BANSHEE!

hippy fascist

01-21-2007, 04:35 PM

Constrictor vs Banshee

With regards to information, I don't think either character will find more than basic information about the other, if they can even find anything at all.

I disagree, see my opening argument

At first, I thought Constrictor had little chance against Banshee. Sure, if Constrictor could get hold of Sean with his adamantium tenticles, then the Irishman would be finished. Payne could crush, smash, electrify, or just rip Banshee apart.

Banshee wouldn't be foolish enough to give constrictor this kind of opening. He's well known for being an excellent tactician and would have worked out every possible way for constrictor to harm him before the match even started

The problem is, Sean could easily keep out of Payne's 30 foot range and bombard him with a variety of sonic attacks.

Agreed, though he won't be directly attacking constrictor in this fight.

Well, interesting fact. Constrictor's tenticles are no longer made from adamantium. They're made from vibranium! And what does vibranium do? It absorbs virbration and sound! In fact, Constrictor's tenticles are designed with an aura that surpresses sound. And if he gets a tenticle around someone's throat, their voice cannot be heard.

This means, that through luck of the draw, Banshee is facing a character whose main weapon counteracts his main weapon. Any sonic attacks he throws at Constrictor, Payne will be able to block/absorb/surpress. If Payne gets a tenticle around Sean's neck, he'll cut off his voice, taking his power away completely (besides being able to manhandle Banshee into submission).

A good point but he's not going to be able to get those coils in range.

Banshee's only advantage is being able to keep his distance in the air. But there's not much he'll be able to do from up their besides dodge whatever Constrictor throws at him with his coils. Even in this situation, eventually Sean will tire, and Payne will be able to finish the fight.

Sean can fly at supersonic speeds meaning if he needs a rest he can simply fly a mile or two away from constrictor and wait for him. Constrictor is not a speedster and can't fly so keeping up with banshee is out of the question. The second constrictor gets within a hundred metres of sean he'll be back up in the air bombarding the area around him with concussive blasts. It may take a while but banshee will eventually take constrictor out of this match without suffering so much as a scratch in the process.

WINNER: BANSHEE!

wiegeabo

01-21-2007, 06:10 PM

Banshee Vs Constrictor

Ok, this was always going to be a tricky match for banshee. His powers are based around sound and constrictors whips cancel sound. Sounds like an uphill strugle but I think there is a way for banshee to win.

The key to this fight will be his flight and concussive blasts.

Banshee is known for his sleuthing skills and, taking into account constrictors affiliations with the masters of evil, as a result finding info on constrictor shouldn't be too much of a problem. As a result of this banshee will be ready for this fight and fully aware of constrictors powers.

Now on to how he can win.

By flying outside of constrictors range (about 30 metres) banshee will be able to completely avoid constrictors coils. Knowing that constrictor cannot target him from this range banshee will be able to take his time with this fight. While the coils do cancel out sound in their imediate viscinity this is a fairly limited area of effect meaning banshee can use his concussive blasts on the surrounding terrain. With the craggy mountainous surface of the area providing plenty of ammo banshee can simply blow up large rock formations sending them constrictors way. Constrictor may be able to break up a few of these rocks before they hit him but since banshee can fight all day from up in the sky with little or no risk from constrictor it will simply be a case of waiting for constrictor to slip up as one rock getting through his defences would be enough to knock him out resulting in an end to the fight.Remember, constrictor is not super strong or durable so a single rock would be enough to incapacitate him. Also if banshee targets an area close to constrictor (but outside the vibranium's range) he could simply open a crack in the ground swallowing constrictor up and killing him, or at least taking him out of the match. Either way constrictor's toast.

At first this match seemed impossible for me to win but with a little lateral thinking (something banshee is famous for) and easy route to victory has arisen.

WINNER: BANSHEE!

Even finding info on Constrictor won't be a great deal of use.

I agree that Banshee's direct attacks won't be effective against Constrictor. Even his concussive blasts are nothing more then vibrating compressed air, which the vibranium will cancel out.

Using the land as an indirect weapon isn't a bad idea. But it requires that Constrictor, who is a skilled fighter, leave himself vulnerable under an outcropping. And even if he was caught in sometype of rockslide, Payne can use his coils and armor to protect him, while throwing the debris back at Sean. Thus forcing Sean to waste his sonics on protective himself rather than attacking.

Opening up the ground with a giant crack will only work if Constrictor falls in. He can still use his coils to avoid such a situation. Or he can lay a trap for Sean by playing dead and falling into a large crack. Payne then uses his coils to keep himself in a safe position. When Banshee comes down to see Payne's status, a coil reaches up from from the darkness to grab Banshee, pretty much ending the fight.

Banshee will be more than able to retreat from the fight to a safe distance when he needs to rest. Then come back for more. The problem is, Banshee will be exerting himself quite a bit, while Constrictor lets his coils do most of the work. Since Payne will be able to conserve his energy more than Sean can, eventually Banshee will tire out first. If nothing else, dehydration will overcome Banshee before it takes Constrictor out. And with no water on the planet, there's nothing Banshee can do about it.

This fight could likely come down to a waiting game. If so, it's a game that Payne take.

Constrictor wins.

hippy fascist

01-21-2007, 06:47 PM

Even finding info on Constrictor won't be a great deal of use.

I agree that Banshee's direct attacks won't be effective against Constrictor. Even his concussive blasts are nothing more then vibrating compressed air, which the vibranium will cancel out.
Which I agree with but in actual fact, banshee's ability to move at supersonic speeds would mean he could get behind constrictor so unless his whips are spinning round him in a perfect circular motion constantly there will be an area that can be attacked, they suck up vibrations but their range is extremely limited.

Using the land as an indirect weapon isn't a bad idea. But it requires that Constrictor, who is a skilled fighter, leave himself vulnerable under an outcropping. And even if he was caught in sometype of rockslide, Payne can use his coils and armor to protect him, while throwing the debris back at Sean. Thus forcing Sean to waste his sonics on protective himself rather than attacking.

Not really, think of it like a snooker shot, by getting the angle right he can hit him with rock from anywhere, even the ground. With regards throwing back debris, banshee could easily dodge this.

Opening up the ground with a giant crack will only work if Constrictor falls in. He can still use his coils to avoid such a situation. Or he can lay a trap for Sean by playing dead and falling into a large crack. Payne then uses his coils to keep himself in a safe position. When Banshee comes down to see Payne's status, a coil reaches up from from the darkness to grab Banshee, pretty much ending the fight.

Not sure how he'd be able to do this, if you can explain this point further I'd be grateful. If he's using them to climb out, this would leave him vulnerable to banshee firing off rocks from the other side of the crack knocking him off balance. Also sean wouldn't be stupid enough to simply go in for a look. He'd open the crack, wait for constrictor to fall in,then bury him in further rocks.

Banshee will be more than able to retreat from the fight to a safe distance when he needs to rest. Then come back for more. The problem is, Banshee will be exerting himself quite a bit, while Constrictor lets his coils do most of the work. Since Payne will be able to conserve his energy more than Sean can, eventually Banshee will tire out first. If nothing else, dehydration will overcome Banshee before it takes Constrictor out. And with no water on the planet, there's nothing Banshee can do about it.

The dehydration could be avoided with a simple canteen

With regards energy expenditure, we're talking about a sprint then a 10 minute break, plenty of time to catch his breath. Also, lashing thosewhips around endlessly to protect himself, as would be necessary based on your argument, would tire out constrictor pretty quickly

This fight could likely come down to a waiting game. If so, it's a game that Payne take.

Constrictor wins.

I leave that up to the debators to decide.

WINNER: BANSHEE!

Phaedrus45

01-23-2007, 01:59 PM

Voting May Begin!!!

kytrigger

01-23-2007, 02:11 PM

Hannibal King- you debate, you win
Baron Karza
Scarlet Witch
Constrictor- I really liked the idea that his vibranium can negate sound, and he is smart enough to take advantage of it.

Phaedrus45

01-23-2007, 02:12 PM

With this first one, I want to just say it's a damn draw. You can really see them both playing a waiting game. Uggg...I don't want to have to decide...

*Banshee

*Hannibal King

*Scarlet Witch - (Darth has really disappeared.)

*Baron Karza

wiegeabo

01-23-2007, 02:27 PM

Hannibal King (I think it could go either way, and almost voted against King. But the debate and his secondary powers just edged out the vote).

Constrictor

Scarlet Witch (Even though this is pre-Disassembeld, her powers are a good edge in almost any fight)

Baron Karza (poor, poor King Cobra)

JewishHobbit

01-23-2007, 02:33 PM

Hannibal King
Baron Karza
Scarlet Witch
Banshee (close one, but I think Banshee has the experience to make his power work for him)

Zoken

01-23-2007, 02:35 PM

Hannibal King
Scarlett Witch
Constrictor
Baron Karza

Iceman

01-23-2007, 02:37 PM

Constrictor - this one is 100% even and would probably never end but we haves to make a choice :(
Hannibal King
Scarlet Witch
Baron Karza

Midnight Ice

01-23-2007, 02:39 PM

Hannibal King
Banshee (Like others have stated before, a tough one to decide!)
Baron Karza
Scarlet Witch

hippy fascist

01-23-2007, 03:56 PM

Banshee
Hannibal King (you debate you win)
Baron Karza (see above)
Scarlet Witch (see above)

Phaedrus45

01-23-2007, 04:36 PM

Results So Far:

Banshee currently tied with Constrictor 4-4
Hannibal King currently beating Thunderball 8-0
Scarlet Witch currently beating Karolina Dean 8-0
Baron Karza currently beating King Cobra 8-0

Hellstormer

01-23-2007, 05:04 PM

Hannibal King
Constrictor
Baron Karza
Scarlet Witch

Harlekin

01-24-2007, 11:39 AM

Banshee
Hannibal King
Scarlet Witch
Baron Karza

DarkHellRider

01-24-2007, 01:00 PM

Scarlet Witch
Hannibal King
Banshee
Baron Karza

Phaedrus45

01-24-2007, 02:49 PM

Results So Far:

Banshee currently beating Constrictor 6-5
Hannibal King currently beating Thunderball 11-0
Scarlet Witch currently beating Karolina Dean 11-0
Baron Karza currently beating King Cobra 11-0

Hellstormer

01-24-2007, 03:08 PM

Results So Far:

Banshee currently beating Constrictor 46-5
Hannibal King currently beating Thunderball 11-0
Scarlet Witch currently beating Karolina Dean 11-0
Baron Karza currently beating King Cobra 11-0
Damn Banshee got a quick lead.

Varient

01-24-2007, 04:34 PM

Chuckle - TWO GLA'ers WHOOPING REGULAR MARVEL HEROES!!!!!!

Open Laughter,.. Sumbody put Mr. Immortal against sumbody streetlevel w/o a healing factor to make three,....

Varient

01-24-2007, 04:42 PM

i hate double posts,...

Ahura Mazda

01-25-2007, 02:46 AM

Constrictor - the vibranium won it out for me
Hannibal King
Scarlet Witch
Baron Karza

Darren Daring

01-25-2007, 11:30 AM

Banshee
Hannibal King
Scarlet Witch
Baron Karza

Phaedrus45

01-25-2007, 01:25 PM

Final Results:

Banshee beat Constrictor 7-6
Hannibal King beat Thunderball 13-0
Scarlet Witch beat Karolina Dean 13-0
Baron Karza beast King Cobra 13-0

Phaedrus45

01-25-2007, 03:42 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg

BRACKET 1,

Match 29:

Songbird (DARTHPHERE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbird_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_songbird.jpg

vs.

Venom - Brock (WOLVERINE25TH) bio (http://www.spiderfan.org/characters/venom.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_venom.jpg

Match 30:

Adam X (JEWISHHOBBIT) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_X_the_X-Treme)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_adamxxtreme1.jpg

vs.

Bloodwraith (MIDNIGHT ICE) bio (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/bloodwraithaveng.htm)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_bloodwraith.jpg

Phaedrus45

01-25-2007, 04:45 PM

BRACKET 2,

Match 29:

Black Widow (HIPPY FASCIST) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Widow_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Black-Widow.jpg

vs.

Georgeous George (HARLEKIN) bio (http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/pov/showquestion.asp?faq=5&fldAuto=48)

(No picture available)

Match 30:

Lightmaster (DARKHELLRIDER) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightmaster)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_lightmaster.jpg

vs.

Debrii (MIDNIGHT ICE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debrii)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_200px-Debrii.jpg

Phaedrus45

01-25-2007, 04:58 PM

Location: Avengers Mansion

In the fictional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiction) Marvel Comics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Comics) universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Universe), Avengers Mansion has traditionally been the base of the Avengers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avengers_%28comics%29). The enormous, city block-sized building, currently abandoned, is located at 890 Fifth Avenue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Avenue_%28Manhattan%29), Manhattan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan), New York City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City).

It had three above-ground floors and three basement floors. The first three floors were open to the public and had twelve rooms to house Avengers who wished to reside in the mansion, as well as Jarvis's quarters. A portion of the mansion's third floor served as a hangar for the Avengers' quinjets, their primary mode of transportation.
The three floors below ground were restricted to the public and had modified rooms for the Avengers' needs. Such rooms below ground were: Tony Stark's arsenal chamber, the Avengers gym, Hawkeye's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawkeye_%28comics%29) test-shooting room, the training room (much like the X-Mansion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Mansion)'s Danger Room), The cryogenic storage area, and the ultra-secure assembly room.

The Mansion was surrounded by a wall twelve feet high and one foot thick, as well as an array of high-tech security defenses. Nonetheless, those defenses were often breached by the supervillains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervillain) faced by the Avengers.

(As per usual, the defenses are shut off. You can venture outside, if necessary; but, not off of Avenger's ground. The twelve foot high wall will be the farthest participants are allowed to reach.)

JewishHobbit

01-25-2007, 10:53 PM

Adam X Vs Bloodwraith

Okay, so this seems like a hard battle for Adam to win, and it is, but he has a lot better chance at it than I originally thought. I thought Adam was just a guy who was good at fighting, advanced strength and agility, and a great swordsman with throwing knives as well. I completely forgot about his powers, and after studying them I realize that he's got a good shot at winning this. His powers are that he can ignite oxydized blood. The cliffnotes is that if he can cut his oponant he can burn them from the inside out. He can use it mildly to simply warm something, or he can make it extreme. Here's some examples of what he's done....

Showing off his agility he bounces around the entire X-Force team and manages to cut them all at least once.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/AdamX03.jpg

He then ignites their blood on a whim and it takes them all out for a short while so that he can escape. That's pretty good.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/AdamX04.jpg

This is what impressed me though... here he is facing off against Eric the Red. Eric has one small cut on his shoulder, he says burn while clanging Marvel's cuffs together to teleport away (the cuffs did nothing to intensify his power)....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/AdamX02.jpg

... And he does it enough to LITERALLY BLOW HIM TO PIECES!!!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/AdamX01.jpg

So that makes me happy. Adam is one heck of a character if you ask me and I didn't even remember how good he was until now. So anyway, he's up against Bloodwraith. I don't understand the Bloodwraith that well but I've downloaded some stuff with him to read and I really think that Adam can win this. He seems to have aditional strength and he's an expert swordsman, and anyone he kills their souls get sucked into his blade and it's like a drug to him. Now I was reading Avengers 366 when he faced Deadpool and Black Knight and he was getting kicked and punched left and right, showing me that he can be physically harmed just fine. He has a physical body that can be cut and can bleed, which is all that Adam needs. I guess his recent appearnace was when he was huge due to all the souls he's collected (I don't know the details as I haven't read the issues) but as far as I'm concerned, it's just a bigger easier target. I'll play with both scenerios to show it working out.

The Battle: They're at the mansion, a place that neither are familiar with. It's indoors and Adam is just as comfortable at fighting indoors as he is outdoors. He's majorly agile as I showed above and he's a great swordsman (able to hold his own with Shatterstar, which is pretty good) so he should be able to stay away from the ebony blade. Not only that but he also has major skills at throwing blades. In every appearance of Adam his first move is to draw blood and to burn his foe. My guess is that the two will meet and after a short while Adam will get a blow in and draws blood (keep in mind, Adam has a sword, throwing blades, retractable claws like wolvie, etc. Dude can draw blood). From that point on it's done. He can fire up Bloodwraith and the man will be down, as has everyone that's been hit. If somehow Bloodwraith doesn't go down, Adam will know the level of threat he's facing. Keep in mind that the wound is still open so he can just fire him up again, amping it up to the "Eric The Red' levels and kill him (as we see in the scans he isn't afraid of killing). Bloodwraith is a mean player, but Adam has the ability to take him down.

And if Bloodwraith is still huge, then Adam still gets it. This simply means that he'll 'find' wraith immediately and be able to hide away and get close enough to go all out on the dude's toe or something. I know that he'd be more resiliant, but all it takes is a pinprick for Adam's powers to work, and once he gets him open Adam wins. He can fry all of the Wraith. In X-Force Annual two it's said that Adam's burning is infinite, no matter the size of the wound, so Wraith's size won't matter.

I think I've stated my case well enough. If someone like Deadpool can land punches and wind or wound Bloodwraith, then Adam shouldn't have any problems with it either, and as soon as a wound is made, the match is over and Adam wins.

Winner - Adam X

Harlekin

01-26-2007, 02:35 AM

OPENING COMMENTS: Gorgeous George vs the Black Widow

I'm going for a structured approach this time, and first off, some different biographies:
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgeous_George_(comics))
Mutant High (http://www.mutanthigh.com/gorgeousgeorge.html)
UncannyXMen (http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/characters/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=511)

Gorgeous George's powers:
Gorgeous George is a purple-skinned shapeshifter whose clay-like body can assume almost any shape, similar to Mr. Fantastic's ability. He cannot look like other people (like Mystique, for example) but he can grow his body parts to large sizes, entirely envelop a foe, or open holes in his body to let projectiles and energy through.

Black Widow's abilities:
The Black Widow possesses the normal human strength of a woman of her age, height, and build who engages in intensive regular exercise.
The Black Widow has received a variant of the Super-Soldier Serum which enabled her to remain in peak physical condition for the past several decades, as well as slowing her aging process to some degree.
The Black Widow is an Olympic class athlete.
Bracelets that contain both the “widow’s line” which fires her cable, and the “widow’s bite” which releases electric bolts to stun her adversaries with a charge of up to 30,000 volts. Her gloves and boots are equipped with miniature suction cups which enable her to cling to surfaces. Her belt contains plastic explosives.

Gorgeous George's resources:
None. However, he will know who the Black Widow is. After all, she was chairman of the Avengers for a while, a notable one at that, since she pissed of the United Nations back during the Bloodlines crossover.

Black Widow's resources:
Avengers files. Doubtful that they would cover Gorgeous George though, since the Avengers never came into contact with the Nasty Boys, and George has only three in continuity appearances to his name.

Gorgeous George's advantages over Black Widow:
He knows that she used to be an Avenger and they're fighting in the Avengers mansion. A quick clean take-out is necessary.
Black Widow has no info on him.
Black Widow can do very little to hurt him, because of his mallable and durable shape. Black Widow will need to use the full capacity of her widow stings to hurt him.

Black Widow's advantages over Gorgeous George:
Homefield advantage.

Ways for Gorgeous George to defeat Black Widow:
Envelop her.
Choke her by going inside her lungs.
Increase his mass to increase his strength and pummel her silly.

Since he knows that the Widow will be extremely dangerous in this environment, Gorgeous George won't hesitate to take her out right quick. He's a villain that hasn't had a problem trying to choke a person to death before (Strong Guy), so I don't see him having much of a moral problem with killing the Widow, although he'll probably fondle her while doing so.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/8537/gorgeousgeorgexfactoryk4.jpg
WINNER=GORGEOUS GEORGE

Midnight Ice

01-29-2007, 08:50 AM

Adam X (JEWISHHOBBIT) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_X_the_X-Treme)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_adamxxtreme1.jpg

vs.

Bloodwraith (MIDNIGHT ICE) bio (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/bloodwraithaveng.htm)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_bloodwraith.jpg

Ok, this is a very tough match for Bloodwraith to win, but not impossible. I will admit I didn't know too much about either of these characters adn had to do a little research. Adter checking everything out, I believe that BloodWraith can win this.

Both combatants are powerful and have fought groups of heroes. Adam X has fought X-Force as JH has showed us and Blodwraith has fought The Avengers. I don't believe that the battle ground will prove to be an advantage or disadvantage to either Bloodwraith or Adam X.

In essense, this is a battle to see who can draw first blood. Adam X can possible kill Bloodwraith after Bloodwraith if bleeding, and Bloodwraith's sword can cut through anything, which means there will be no trouble cutting through Adam X or his weapons, proving them to be useless.

I can see this battle ending quite quickly. Bloodwraith can teleport anywhere his sword is. If Bloodwraith wants to end this quickly, which he would have no trouble doing, while Adam X attacks him, Bloodwraith could easily toss his sword above or behind Adam X, teleporting to it and ending the fight with a fatal blow or impaling.

Winner: Bloodwraith

Midnight Ice

01-29-2007, 08:59 AM

Lightmaster (DARKHELLRIDER) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightmaster)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_lightmaster.jpg

vs.

Debrii (MIDNIGHT ICE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debrii)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_200px-Debrii.jpg

Here is a match where Debrii seemed like an underdog to me, but she could win this quite easily.

Debrii is a telekinetic and can use any objects around her to defend herself, fight with, or she has even used a bunch of scrap metal to encase around her body increasing her size and strength. She has done this to create a Metal Monster around her body.

The abandoned Avengers Mansion will be full of random objects and rubble that will aid Debrii in the fight. Lightmaster relies on a technological suit for his abilities. Debrii would first use her telekinisis to distrupt the suit by pulling wires, or damaging the ciruitry, making Lightmaster's abilities non-existent. Even if that does not work, Debrii would create a shield of surrounding objects and rubble and then can shoot them out in all directions that would take Lightmaster out or damage his suit that he heavily relies on for his powers. Then Debrii could make a monsterous shell to finish the fight is she wanted to do it in style.

Winner: Debrii

Darthphere

01-29-2007, 10:57 AM

BRACKET 1,

Match 29:

Songbird (DARTHPHERE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbird_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_songbird.jpg

vs.

Venom - Brock (WOLVERINE25TH) bio (http://www.spiderfan.org/characters/venom.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_venom.jpg

SO here I am guys, once again to begin some pwnage: Lets break it down:

Songbrid:Sound manipulation
Ability to create "solid sound" constructs

Venom: Brock's powers stem from his symbiotic relationship with the alien that serves as his costume. The symbiote can mimic any type of clothing whatsoever, as well as blending Venom in his surroundings, rendering him invisible. The symbiote has augmented all of Brock's physical abilities to superhuman levels equal to, and in some cases greater than, Spider-Man's.
Abilities: Venom also possesses the ability to adhere to most sufaces. Venom can animate any part of his costume and can fire a web-like substance from his hands. Because the symbiote was previously attached to Peter, it knows how to shield itself from Spider-Man's spider-sense.

I find this part of Venom's bio to be interesting here:

"The symbiote is extremely sensitive to sonic and thermal attacks."

I think its clear who takes the win here, possibly quite easily. So to keep it short and sweet:

Songbird wins.

Phaedrus45

01-30-2007, 12:09 PM

Voting May Begin!!!

Phaedrus45

01-30-2007, 12:25 PM

*Songbird - (Wow, bad luck of the draw for Venom.)

*Adam X - (Great opening debate, JH.)

*Georgeous George

*Debrii - (I like this character, and Avenger's Mansion is a great location for her to showcase her talents.)

hippy fascist

01-30-2007, 12:28 PM

A whole load of debate=win's this week

Songbird
Debris
Adam X
Gorgeous George

wiegeabo

01-30-2007, 01:05 PM

Gorgeous George
Bloodwraith
Lightmaster
Songbird

Midnight Ice

01-30-2007, 02:22 PM

Bloodwraith
Songbird
Debrii
Gorgeous George

Darthphere

01-30-2007, 02:26 PM

Songbird
Debris
Adam X
Gorgeous George

Zoken

01-30-2007, 06:58 PM

Debrii
Adam X
Songbird
Gorgeous George

JewishHobbit

01-30-2007, 07:14 PM

Adam X - Wow, great debate Hobbit :)
Debrii
Songbird - Poor Venom, definatly a bad draw for him
Georgous George

Phaedrus45

01-31-2007, 10:16 AM

Results So Far:

Songbird currently beating Venom-Brock 7-0
Adam X currently beating Bloodwraith 5-2
Georgeous George currently beating Black Widow 7-0
Debrii currently beating Lightmaster 6-1

kytrigger

01-31-2007, 10:25 AM

Songbird
Gorgeous George
Adam X
Debrii

DarkHellRider

01-31-2007, 11:07 AM

Venom
Lightmaster
Adam X
Gorgeous George

Harlekin

01-31-2007, 12:15 PM

Too bad Hippy wasn’t able to debate, but I’m glad I’m winning. :D

Songbird
Adam X
Gorgeous George
Debrii

Phaedrus45

01-31-2007, 12:28 PM

Too bad Hippy wasn’t able to debate, but I’m glad I’m winning. :D

Yeah. Sadly, Hippy forgot Black Widow was his character; and, since it looks like JH will win both his matches this week, it will guarantee him the winning prize. Hippy could easily have won the match if he debated, I think. After all, Black Widow has total Avenger's access to the location.

Darren Daring

01-31-2007, 12:51 PM

Songbird
Adam X
Georgeous George
Debrii

Iceman

01-31-2007, 03:48 PM

Songbird
Adam X
Gorgeous George
Debrii

Phaedrus45

01-31-2007, 05:03 PM

Results So Far:

Songbird currently beating Venom-Brock 11-1
Adam X currently beating Bloodwraith 10-2
Georgeous George currently beating Black Widow 12-0
Debrii currently beating Lightmaster 10-2

Hellstormer

01-31-2007, 07:58 PM

Songbird
Adam X
Georgeous George
Debrii

Ahura Mazda

02-01-2007, 03:21 AM

Bloodwraith
Songbird
Debrii
Gorgeous George

Phaedrus45

02-01-2007, 10:35 AM

Final Results:

Songbird beat Venom-Brock 13-1
Adam X beat Bloodwraith 11-3
Georgeous George beat Black Widow 14-0
Debrii beat Lightmaster 12-2

Phaedrus45

02-01-2007, 01:39 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg

BRACKET 1,

Match 31:

Ronan The Accuser (KYTRIGGER) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_the_Accuser)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Ronantheaccuser.jpg

vs.

Living Lightning (MIDNIGHT ICE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Lightning)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_179.jpg

Match 32:

Damien Hellstrom (HARLEKIN) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimon_Hellstrom)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_b7_2.jpg

vs.

Namor The Sub-mariner (DARTHPHERE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namor_the_Sub-Mariner)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Sub-Mariner.jpg

Phaedrus45

02-01-2007, 02:40 PM

BRACKET 2,

Match 31:

Doc Octopus (ICEMAN/PSYLOCKE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Octopus)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_DocOctMU3.gif

vs.

Brainchild (WIEGEABO) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/brainchild.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_brainchild.jpg

Match 32:

Iron Lad (KYTRIGGER) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Lad)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_94484-iron-lad_150.jpg

vs.

Monet St. Croix (ICEMAN/PSYLOCKE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_200px-Mcomics.png

Phaedrus45

02-01-2007, 03:24 PM

Location: Marvel 1602

Battle will be Marvel 1602, in the New World. There will be no technology, you'll be placed in the forest area (water from creeks and animals will be around, of course, but no humans), and it will be about a 2 mile radius to fight in.

Here is a website devoted to Marvel 1602; but, there really isn't much about the world they inhabit in there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_1602

kytrigger

02-01-2007, 04:57 PM

Ronan The Accuser (KYTRIGGER) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_the_Accuser)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Ronantheaccuser.jpg

vs.

Living Lightning (MIDNIGHT ICE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Lightning)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_179.jpg
LL is cool as hell, but he is outmatched here.

Both have fought each other before so both have an equal amount of prep time.

Here is a scan of when they fought before. Ronan simply used his hammer of awesomness to change LL back into a human with no powers:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l52/rbouras/ronanll.jpg

All Ronan would have to do is this again, and then he can easily destroy LL in a 100 different ways if he chooses. He has beaten him easily once, and will do so again.

Winner- Ronan

kytrigger

02-03-2007, 02:18 PM

Before I start, I want to let you know that once again, I will be unable to debate Monday evening and Tuesday. I'll try to get everything wrapped up before then, but if not, I'll just post my closing arguments on monday and hope for the best.
Iron Lad (KYTRIGGER) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Lad)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_94484-iron-lad_150.jpg

vs.

Monet St. Croix (ICEMAN/PSYLOCKE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_200px-Mcomics.png
Excellent match-up IMO between two pretty powerful super-heroes.

First let's get powers out of the way. M has quite a few powers. Superstrength, flight, super-durability, speed, and can percieve mutants' auras. Now I will oinbt out that Marvel directory has her strength level in teh 10 ton category. I will admit she has shwon more strength than this, but she isn't anywhere near Thor's strength level or anything. IMO I would say she's around the 25 ton range.

Now, whiel M has a number of powers, so does Iron Lad. His armor is basically a futuristic armor given to him by Kang. It has superstrength, speed, flight, can shoot magnetic beams (as well as a few other types of beams). and time travel. Now, the armor itself has shown other abilities as well. It can change density and change shape. Whiel these last two were technically the new Vision in Young Avengers, it is still the exact same armor that Iron Lad used.

Now that we know they both have a rather large set of powers, let's get into prep-time. M will most likely have no idea who Iron Lad is. He wasn't around very long at all. Now, on the other hand, Iron Lad downloaded the entire database of the original Vision which are most likely, the entire Avenger's database. From this he could easily see who Monet is and find out about her powers and know what to expect.

As for teh location, neither would really know about it, and it wouldn't really matter since it's just a forest.

Now on to the battle! Iron Lad might not have that much experience, but he has shown to be plenty smart both in a fight and out of one. He is the one that traveled back in time and formed the Young Avengers, and he was basically their leader for the short time he was around. Hell, as a rookie, he even killed Kang, knowing that he was killing himself essentially. Basically, the kid has balls.

He'll know that M is strong and her most deadly weapon is her strength. He'll test her. If he doesn't think he can hang with her in hand to hand combat, thenhe'll step back and start taking her on from farther away. He can use his energy beams and then slink off into the forest. M has super vision, but it can't see through the trees like X-Ray vision, and since Iron Lad's not a mutant, she can't sense his aura. Iron Lad has also shown no remorse in attacking an enemy from behind (like he did to Kang).

Now, if M does get in close, his suit is plenty capable of going toe-to-toe with her (although I will admit she is probably a better hand-to-hand fighter than him). A worst case scenario is that he could definately fight her in closer combat long enough to use his negative point beam (or whatver it's called) to trap her in place. Remember his armor is from the future. And not like a crappy 15 years in teh future, but the 31st century. That's a damn long time and technology is sure as hell a lot better then than in M's timeline.

This would be a long battle. Both are about even in their powers and neither give up easily. It might actually come down to whether or not the other is willing to kill to win. I'm not sure if Monet is willing to kill, but Iron Lad has killed his older self by stabbing him in the back. If it came down to it, he would kill M as well.

Winner- Iron Lad

wiegeabo

02-03-2007, 03:09 PM

Brainchild vs Doctor Octopus

I don't think either would get information on the other. Although it's slightly more likely for Brainchild to find something on the more publicly known Doc Ock, he'd probably only have access to his Savage Land resources. So finding something on Ock isn't probable.

But, because he can use his Savage Land resources, Brainchild can have access, or develop, a number of weapons to use against Ock as well as bring along forcefields to protect his body. And with his experience manipulating genetic codes, Branchild could just create a device that alters human/mutant DNA (while leaving his own intact). The effects of the manipulation aren't important as long as they take Ock out of the fight.

Brainchild also has the ability to possess others. No doubt Doctor Octopus would be able to develop a device to protect his mind, but he has no reason too. It's not something he normally has, and without knowing anything about Brainchild, he wouldn't protect himself that way. So Brainchild can stop the fight by just preventing Doc Ock from fighting.

This is a battle between two geniuses. But Brainchild is far smarter than Ock, and has access to superior technology. This battle shouldn't be too difficult for one so intelligent.

Brainchild wins

Midnight Ice

02-04-2007, 11:23 AM

Ronan The Accuser (KYTRIGGER) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronan_the_Accuser)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Ronantheaccuser.jpg

vs.

Living Lightning (MIDNIGHT ICE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Lightning)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_179.jpg

Ok, I originally had no idea that Ronan could change Living Lightning from his energy form back to his human form. That will obviously make this fight very hard or darn near impossible for him to win. I would say that his best chance against Ronan is for Living Lightning to lure him to a nearby stream and once Ronan gets wet or in it, Living Lightning could electricute him, at least knocking him out.

Winner:Living Lightning

Harlekin

02-04-2007, 12:35 PM

OPENING COMMENTS: Damien Hellstrom, the Son of Satan vs Namor, the Avenging Son

We've got ourselves one hell of an interesting match-up here. On the one hand, we've got Namor, the incredibly powerful Atlantean capable of taking on the Hulk and stalemating him (and he even used to be capable of beating the jade giant). On the other hand though, we've got Damien Hellstrom, the also incredibly powerful son of Satan who has become so radioactive these days, they're hesitant to have him show up in the normal Marvel titles. Thing is, and considering they were both part of the awesome Defenders team, Namor doesn't stand much of a chance against his former teammate.

Why, you ask? The man is the son of Satan, and Lord of Hell. Besides his soulfire, which can burn if he so wills it, he can also project real fire. Damien has also shown to be one of the most amoral characters around, so I doubt he'd have much of a problem with setting Namor on fire. In case anyone forgot, Namor gets weaker the more he's dried out. If it's up to Hellstrom, he'll be gasping for air a few seconds into the match. Assuming Namor's still got a fight left in him, Hellstrom can just dodge him until he's down and out. Beyond just having more than peak physical powers, Hellstrom also has the ability to teleport. For a really good idea of what Hellstrom can do, read up here (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/hellstormdaimon.htm).

So, for the things Hellstrom can do to Namor:
- Use the soulfire to let Namor go through excruciating pain, weaken his lifeforce and as to weaken him even more, it dries him out.
- Use normal fire to set Namor on fire and let him wear himself out in rage.
- Use his magic to teleport Namor away from the battlefield, giving him an automatic win.
- Summon his trio of demon-steeds, Amon, Hecate and Set to set upon Namor.

The things that Hellstrom can do to protect himself from Namor:
- Magical wards and shields to keep Namor away.
- Teleport in order to keep away from Namor.

In contrast, Namor can do little to harm Hellstrom, and is really just subject to Hellstrom's mercy. Water can douse a small flame, but big fires are capable of evaporating the water. It's a corny sounding metaphore, but the water's Namor and the big fire's Hellstrom.

I like Namor a lot, but this match is for the Lord of Hell.

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/4182/hellstormog5.jpg
WINNER=DAMIEN HELLSTROM

kytrigger

02-05-2007, 04:50 PM

Ok, I originally had no idea that Ronan could change Living Lightning from his energy form back to his human form. That will obviously make this fight very hard or darn near impossible for him to win. I would say that his best chance against Ronan is for Living Lightning to lure him to a nearby stream and once Ronan gets wet or in it, Living Lightning could electricute him, at least knocking him out.

Winner:Living LightningI'll just point out that Ronan is one of the best tactical minds in the MU. He has outsmarted Reed richards and even beaten Blackbolt on his smarts alone so unlike most strong physical characters (I'm looking at you Hulk and almost every Thor villain) he isn't stupid enough to wander into a stream.

Winner- Ronan

kytrigger

02-05-2007, 05:04 PM

Before I start, I want to let you know that once again, I will be unable to debate Monday evening and Tuesday. I'll try to get everything wrapped up before then, but if not, I'll just post my closing arguments on monday and hope for the best.
Excellent match-up IMO between two pretty powerful super-heroes.

First let's get powers out of the way. M has quite a few powers. Superstrength, flight, super-durability, speed, and can percieve mutants' auras. Now I will oinbt out that Marvel directory has her strength level in teh 10 ton category. I will admit she has shwon more strength than this, but she isn't anywhere near Thor's strength level or anything. IMO I would say she's around the 25 ton range.

Now, whiel M has a number of powers, so does Iron Lad. His armor is basically a futuristic armor given to him by Kang. It has superstrength, speed, flight, can shoot magnetic beams (as well as a few other types of beams). and time travel. Now, the armor itself has shown other abilities as well. It can change density and change shape. Whiel these last two were technically the new Vision in Young Avengers, it is still the exact same armor that Iron Lad used.

Now that we know they both have a rather large set of powers, let's get into prep-time. M will most likely have no idea who Iron Lad is. He wasn't around very long at all. Now, on the other hand, Iron Lad downloaded the entire database of the original Vision which are most likely, the entire Avenger's database. From this he could easily see who Monet is and find out about her powers and know what to expect.

As for teh location, neither would really know about it, and it wouldn't really matter since it's just a forest.

Now on to the battle! Iron Lad might not have that much experience, but he has shown to be plenty smart both in a fight and out of one. He is the one that traveled back in time and formed the Young Avengers, and he was basically their leader for the short time he was around. Hell, as a rookie, he even killed Kang, knowing that he was killing himself essentially. Basically, the kid has balls.

He'll know that M is strong and her most deadly weapon is her strength. He'll test her. If he doesn't think he can hang with her in hand to hand combat, thenhe'll step back and start taking her on from farther away. He can use his energy beams and then slink off into the forest. M has super vision, but it can't see through the trees like X-Ray vision, and since Iron Lad's not a mutant, she can't sense his aura. Iron Lad has also shown no remorse in attacking an enemy from behind (like he did to Kang).

Now, if M does get in close, his suit is plenty capable of going toe-to-toe with her (although I will admit she is probably a better hand-to-hand fighter than him). A worst case scenario is that he could definately fight her in closer combat long enough to use his negative point beam (or whatver it's called) to trap her in place. Remember his armor is from the future. And not like a crappy 15 years in teh future, but the 31st century. That's a damn long time and technology is sure as hell a lot better then than in M's timeline.

This would be a long battle. Both are about even in their powers and neither give up easily. It might actually come down to whether or not the other is willing to kill to win. I'm not sure if Monet is willing to kill, but Iron Lad has killed his older self by stabbing him in the back. If it came down to it, he would kill M as well.

Winner- Iron Lad
Whiel I hate quoteing myself, I figured this was easier than retyping it into a closing argument.

I'd also like to add that even though M is said to have some telepathic abilities, she rarely ever uses them offensively and is unlikely to do so in this battle.

Also, during extreme moments of stress, Monet has shown to mentally revert to an autistic child. While this doesn't happen too often, if she is under too much stress (form the badass battle she is fighting) this could happen. While it woudl be rare, if it does, she is basically scewed.

So basically this battle comes down to Iron Lad who is a mixture of Krang and Iron Man vs. M

Think about it...

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l52/rbouras/Marvel/ironman.jpg + http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l52/rbouras/kang.jpg

VS

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l52/rbouras/Judi_Dench.jpg

I think it's obvious who would win in a fight :woot:

Winner- Iron Lad

Iceman

02-06-2007, 06:11 AM

DR OCTOPUS Vs BRAINCHILD

BRACKET 2,

Match 31:

Doc Octopus (ICEMAN/PSYLOCKE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Octopus)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_DocOctMU3.gif

vs.

Brainchild (WIEGEABO) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/brainchild.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_brainchild.jpg

Powers
Brainchild is extremely smart and is the brains behind any Savage Land (http://www.mutanthigh.com/geography/savageland.html) operation. His head is disproportionately large to accomodate the extra gray matter, and his body is disproportionately small and weak. Crafty and clever, he should never be underestimated. He has a penchant for genetic tweaking, which he may also used on himself, possibly giving him some telepathic/possession powers.Doctor Octopus has been hinted as being a low-level technopathic mutant, but no superpowers have been outrightly revealed. He is a bona fide genius in the fields of atomic physics, in which he holds a Ph. D in robotics.
His harness is attached to four mentally controlled, prehensile metallic appendages. These arms are capable of lifting several tons, provided that at least one arm is used to support his body. The reaction time and agility of his mechanical appendages is enhanced far beyond the range attainable for normal human musculature. The arms allow Octavius to move rapidly over any terrain and to scale vertical surfaces and ceilings. He has developed his concentration and control to the point that he can engage a single opponent, like Spider-Man, or multiple opponents with the arms while performing a completely separate, more delicate task, such as holding a cigarette or constructing a machine.
While wearing the harness, the arms are powerful enough to allow him to walk up sheer concrete walls and move quickly about. They are also used to grab items, both small and large, and as literal weapons in terms of being swung at objects and people like clubs.Prep Time
The Savage Land is very remote so I doubt Ock would get useful info on Brainchild. On the other hand Savage Land resources are generally disinterested in the rest of the world at large so there is unlikely to be info on the Doc either. Going on names, I would suggest that Brainchild could guess he'd be facing something with eight arms of some kind while Ock would guess that he's facing a cerebral opponent possibly capable of telepathy (not that this is much of a factor here).

Both are geniuses with significant resources at hand and will be able to make good use of prep time. Brainchild needs to completely outdo Ock in this area as without prep time, he has no method of offence while Ock can crush his fragile body in seconds.

Location
Ock's arms will allow him to navigate the forest terrain with ease ripping out trees that get in his way. He will be able to move at great speed while Brainchild will be slower than the average human.

The Battle
Two geniuses are fighting it out here. Unfortunately, one has the advantage of eight deadly and intelligent metal tentacles allowing him to perform multiple attacks and tasks simultaneously and traverse the inconvenient terrain with absolutely no problems. Prep time will be a factor for Brainchild but Ock is also a master of prep time making it unlikely that Brainchild will be able to close the gap sufficiently to give him a chance of victory.

Conclusion
Ock 8 - 0 Brainchild

WINNER = DR OCTOPUS

Iceman

02-06-2007, 06:32 AM

REBUTTAL: BRAINCHILD Vs DR OCTOPUS

I don't think either would get information on the other. Although it's slightly more likely for Brainchild to find something on the more publicly known Doc Ock, he'd probably only have access to his Savage Land resources. So finding something on Ock isn't probable.Agreed on both counts. Ock will find it difficult to find info on Brainchild while residents of the Savage Land have no need or interest in keeping info on Spidey villains.

But, because he can use his Savage Land resources, Brainchild can have access, or develop, a number of weapons to use against Ock as well as bring along forcefields to protect his body. And with his experience manipulating genetic codes, Branchild could just create a device that alters human/mutant DNA (while leaving his own intact). The effects of the manipulation aren't important as long as they take Ock out of the fight.This seems like a very vague strategy. I'm not sure how he plans to alter Doc's DNA and how this will harm him but I'll give it a shot anyway. Ock will expect someone called Brainchild to be dependant on using brains in the fight. With his huge speed advantage he will be the one to choose when the close range fight begins (he will be protected by cover of the tress until this point) and will expect that the brain creature will bring some toys to the fight. Whatever machine he builds, Brainchild himself ( with his slow reflexes) needs to be quick enough to nail the fast moving and super agile Doc with it before he reaches him.

I know Brainchild is interested in genetics but other malevolent geniuses in this field like Dark Beast and Sinister don't tend to have DNA altering weapons that they can just wheel into battle. DNA changes are normally time consuming and requiring huge amounts of resources and lab-filling machinery etc. I doubt Brainchild will be able to bring anything of this magnitude into the battle. Also, it is unlikely that his own feeble body would be immune to any such device so he would be vulnerable to having it used against him.

Also he'd need to know whether Doc Ock was human/mutant or something else to focus his efforts. The octopus part of the name might even suggest some kind of alien or intelligent animal. :yay:

Most importantly, if he is using a forcefield, is his "DNA altering weapon" (his only means of attack) inside or outside the forcefield? :yay:

Inside = :csad:
Outside = :(

Brainchild also has the ability to possess others. No doubt Doctor Octopus would be able to develop a device to protect his mind, but he has no reason too. It's not something he normally has, and without knowing anything about Brainchild, he wouldn't protect himself that way. So Brainchild can stop the fight by just preventing Doc Ock from fighting.Protecting his mind will be the first thing that Ock prepares for when he reads the name "Brainchild".

This is a battle between two geniuses. But Brainchild is far smarter than Ock, and has access to superior technology. This battle shouldn't be too difficult for one so intelligent.He doesn't take on opponents in one on one fights unlike Ock (who would be very difficult to defeat even without the benefit of prep time). Unfortunately Ock is also a genius and this counteracts Brainchild's only advantage.

WINNER = DR OCTOPUS

Iceman

02-06-2007, 07:00 AM

M Vs IRON LAD
Match 32:

Iron Lad (KYTRIGGER) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Lad)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_94484-iron-lad_150.jpg

vs.

Monet St. Croix (ICEMAN/PSYLOCKE) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_200px-Mcomics.png

Powers
Nathaniel's Iron Lad armor is composed of neuro-kinetic bio-metal, and he could alter its appearance and shape with his thoughts. The armor enabled Iron Lad to have superhuman strength and allows him to fly. It also enabled him to fire blasts of various kinds of energy, and even time-travel. Nathaniel's psychic link with his armor enabled him to mentally remote-control the Iron Lad armor from a distance.Known Powers: M is superhuman in essentially all aspects.
Superhuman Strength (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superhuman_Strength): Able to lift up to 50 tons.
Superhuman Intellect: M's intelligence is beyond genius level
Invulnerability: Highly resistant to injuries.
Healing Factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healing_Factor): M possesses a regenerative quality allowing her to heal and recover from wounds. The effect also has the added benefit of making her more resistant to toxins and disease, and possibly the aging process.
Enhanced Senses: M possesses telescopic and night vision and more acute hearing. It is possible her other senses are enhanced also.
Enhanced Agility: her agility is greatly enhanced, far more than peak human.
Superhuman Speed and Reflexes: her speed and reflexes are greatly enhanced, far more than a peak human.
Flight: ability to psionically levitate and move herself in the air by force of will.
Telepathy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telepathy): ability to read minds, project her thoughts into the minds of others, and defensively mask her mind against telepathic intrusion. Limited offensive capabilities, e.g. mind control, memory wipe, etc.Known Abilities: formidable hand-to-hand combat knowledge.

Prep time
Not sure how much she'd find through her X-Factor links. If I was betting I'd say Iron Lad is likely to come away with better quality info from prep time although M would at least know the basics on his more obvious assets such as flight and armour.

Location
As both characters can fly the trees will not prove a major obstacle but if not, they will be equally impeded.

The Battle
This will be a high octane clash between two young heavy hitters. They are a good match, will do a fair amount of damage to each other and I can see the fight lasting a fair while. In the end M enjoys too many significant advantages (superior strength, intellect, senses, agility, speed, reflexes and hand to hand combat expertise). Her healing factor means she will eventually outlast the brave Iron Lad and her telepathy gives her a weapon that he doesn't possess.

Conclusion
I see the first few hours of the fight being very even with each character's level of resistance being sufficient to take the blows and strikes from thier opponent. As time wears on, M's numerous advantages will lead to victory.

WINNER = MONET

I would have loved to debate this match properly with ky like some of our very enjoyable previous efforts, especially as the characters are not too far apart in abilities :csad:

Damn life getting in the way.

Iceman

02-06-2007, 07:54 AM

M Vs IRON LAD

Before I start, I want to let you know that once again, I will be unable to debate Monday evening and Tuesday. I'll try to get everything wrapped up before then, but if not, I'll just post my closing arguments on monday and hope for the best.
Excellent match-up IMO between two pretty powerful super-heroes.Yeah, shame we couldn't debate this one. I'll contest a couple of points I disagree with, otherwise I agree on most of what you've said. :up:

First let's get powers out of the way. M has quite a few powers. Superstrength, flight, super-durability, speed, and can percieve mutants' auras. Now I will oinbt out that Marvel directory has her strength level in teh 10 ton category. I will admit she has shwon more strength than this, but she isn't anywhere near Thor's strength level or anything. IMO I would say she's around the 25 ton range.I've been checking different sites and it varies quite a bit between 10 and 50. If anyone knows the correct figure feel free to chime in.

Now, whiel M has a number of powers, so does Iron Lad. His armor is basically a futuristic armor given to him by Kang. It has superstrength, speed, flight, can shoot magnetic beams (as well as a few other types of beams). and time travel. Now, the armor itself has shown other abilities as well. It can change density and change shape. Whiel these last two were technically the new Vision in Young Avengers, it is still the exact same armor that Iron Lad used.His armour is very useful. :up: I don't think time travel is allowed though (I would have highlighted it in my powers section otherwise).

Now that we know they both have a rather large set of powers, let's get into prep-time. M will most likely have no idea who Iron Lad is. He wasn't around very long at all. Now, on the other hand, Iron Lad downloaded the entire database of the original Vision which are most likely, the entire Avenger's database. From this he could easily see who Monet is and find out about her powers and know what to expect.Possible strategy. I'm not sure whether Vision would have the entire database downloaded but it's possible. M should be able to find out Iron Lad's basic powers (if she doesn't already know) from X-Factor connections or general media although no techinical info.

As for teh location, neither would really know about it, and it wouldn't really matter since it's just a forest.Yeah.

Now on to the battle! Iron Lad might not have that much experience, but he has shown to be plenty smart both in a fight and out of one. He is the one that traveled back in time and formed the Young Avengers, and he was basically their leader for the short time he was around. Hell, as a rookie, he even killed Kang, knowing that he was killing himself essentially. Basically, the kid has balls. Balls he has.

M also has balls and still manages to remain attractive.

She also has a wealth of useful battle experience and superior training.

He'll know that M is strong and her most deadly weapon is her strength. He'll test her. If he doesn't think he can hang with her in hand to hand combat, thenhe'll step back and start taking her on from farther away. He can use his energy beams and then slink off into the forest. M has super vision, but it can't see through the trees like X-Ray vision, and since Iron Lad's not a mutant, she can't sense his aura. Iron Lad has also shown no remorse in attacking an enemy from behind (like he did to Kang). M is a very well rounded character with a hell of a lot more going for her than strength. Telepathy means she'll know where he is at all times as he'll leave a psychic footprint. I doubt he'd be able to stay hidden effectively from a flying opponent anyway as his bright red armour doesn't exactly double as useful camo gear.

Now, if M does get in close, his suit is plenty capable of going toe-to-toe with her (although I will admit she is probably a better hand-to-hand fighter than him). A worst case scenario is that he could definately fight her in closer combat long enough to use his negative point beam (or whatver it's called) to trap her in place. Remember his armor is from the future. And not like a crappy 15 years in teh future, but the 31st century. That's a damn long time and technology is sure as hell a lot better then than in M's timeline. M is actually very useful in close combat and has had intensive training in this particular form of fighting. I don't think this would be an advisable strategy for Iron Lad. This would be a long battle. Both are about even in their powers and neither give up easily. It might actually come down to whether or not the other is willing to kill to win. I'm not sure if Monet is willing to kill, but Iron Lad has killed his older self by stabbing him in the back. If it came down to it, he would kill M as well.Killing his older self is not really the same as killing someone he doesn't know. I don't personally think this fight needs to end in the death of either character. Incapacitation is more likely given their levels of resistance.

Whiel I hate quoteing myself, I figured this was easier than retyping it into a closing argument.

I'd also like to add that even though M is said to have some telepathic abilities, she rarely ever uses them offensively and is unlikely to do so in this battle.Not at first but as the battle wears on (pretty much evenly) she will look to different means to gain an advantage.

Also, during extreme moments of stress, Monet has shown to mentally revert to an autistic child. While this doesn't happen too often, if she is under too much stress (form the badass battle she is fighting) this could happen. While it woudl be rare, if it does, she is basically scewed.http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/7037/stretching1ux4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

So basically this battle comes down to Iron Lad who is a mixture of Krang and Iron Man vs. M

Think about it...

X + X

VS

M

I think it's obvious who would win in a fight :woot:The dirty tricks begin! :woot:

OK My turn...

Alias: M
Purpose: To pleasure COM II voters
Fan quote: This ***** kicks ass! She should have gone straight to the X-men team and skipped training. Think of her as genius Rogue with a mix of Emma Frost.http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/190/42186409mu9.jpg (http://imageshack.us) http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7818/m3lp3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Alias: Iron Lad
Purpose: To pleasure Iron Man
Fan quote: He's like Iron Man, 'cept he's not really a man

WINNER = M