Contest of Marvels II Thread 1 [Archive] - Page 6

Phaedrus45

06-06-2007, 02:27 PM

Location: AVALON

Avalon was a fictional space station (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_station) inhabited by the Acolytes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acolytes_%28comics%29), a cult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult) devoted to Magneto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magneto_%28comics%29) and his views on human-mutant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutant_%28Marvel_comics%29) relations. It first appeared in the Fatal Attractions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_Attractions) storyline in Marvel Comics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Comics)'s X-Men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men) books.
Avalon was originally named Greymalkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greymalkin), and was the property of Cable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_%28comics%29). An interesting part of Greymalkin's construction was its Professor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_%28comics%29), not to be confused with Professor X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professor_X). Greymalkin faked its destruction when S.H.I.E.L.D. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.H.I.E.L.D.) tried to take it over, dumping parts in the ocean and in X-force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-force)'s base, but the remaining parts, including its core remained, now using cloaking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisibility) to hide itself.
Magneto discovered the abandoned space-station, deactivated the Professor and used Shi'ar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27ar) technology to expand it, turning it into his new base and sending out his new servant Exodus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_%28comics%29) to bring worthy mutants to it. His first choice were several members of X-force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-force), who had been students of Magneto when they were part of the New Mutants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mutants). X-force leader, Cable, followed them and managed to disable Avalon's teleportation system and copy the Professor from the core of the station into his own techno-organic bodyparts. Cable and his team escaped, but former New Mutants Rusty Collins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusty_Collins) and Skids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skids_%28comics%29) remained on Avalon with Magneto.
Shortly afterwards, Magneto sent Exodus to bring his followers, the Acolytes, to Avalon as well. He declared that Avalon would be a safe heaven for all mutants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutant_%28Marvel_comics%29), away from humanity. The X-Men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men) battled Magneto and he was put into a coma. Exodus took over the leadership of the Acolytes and Avalon. The Acolyte Milan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan_%28comics%29) repaired the teleportation systems of Avalon.
Avalon was destroyed by a battle between Holocaust (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_%28comics%29) and Exodus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_%28comics%29). Exodus tried to gather the pieces of Avalon to rebuilt it shortly afterwards, but halted his plans when Joseph (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_%28comics%29) turned up, thinking that Joseph was Magneto. Pieces of Avalon and Greymalkin were later gathered by Cable to build the island of Providence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Providence_%28comics%29), his current base of operations.
Avalon is also shown and is a level on the SNES (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNES) Game X-Men: Mutant Apocalypse and on the Sega Genesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Genesis) game X-Men 2: Clone Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men_2:_Clone_Wars). In Magneto's ending in Marvel Super Heroes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Super_Heroes_%28arcade_game%29), he uses the Infinity Gauntlet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity_Gauntlet) to create a new Avalon, an entire moon to serve as a homeworld for Mutantkind.

Harlekin

06-06-2007, 02:44 PM

OPENING COMMENTS: Black Panther vs Savage Hulk

For this one, I'll also borrow a page from Black Panther's matches, because it's much easier to repost these things. What is the one thing that defines the Panther? Prep-time. So, first off, let's handle his powers and pointing you to some great respect threads.

Strength, speed and endurance
Marvel Directory.Com: The Black Panther is near the pinnicle of human physical perfection, his natural strength and abilities having been heightened by unidentified heart-shaped herb administered only to Wakandan kings during a sacred ascension ritual. The herb is also only in Wakanda. While not superhuman, he is nearly as strong as a human being can become. He can lift (press) a maximum of 750 pounds with supreme effort.
Other skills
Marvel Directory.Com: An accomplished gymnast and acrobat, T'Challa is also an expert tracker. In addition, he has mastered various African martial arts.
Standard equipment
Marvel Directory.Com: T'Challa's Vibranium micro-weave bodysuit not only stops bullets, but saps their momentum. His boots' Vibranium soles absorb sound and impact -- enabling him to leap from structures up to eight stories tall and land without injury, and literally run up the sides of buildings. The Panther's retractable claws contain a new composite of the experimental "anti-metal" Vibranium that can break down other alloys. T'Challa wields an energy dagger that can be fired, thrown or handled like a knife. At its highest setting, the weapon easily can cut through forged steel.
For more of an idea of what the Panther can do, I invite you to look at this respect thread (http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t405357.html), detailing some of the awesome feats he's pulled off. Let's recap a few things here: Black Panther originally tested himself against the Fantastic Four, he's stared down Iron Man, has held his own against guys like Captain America, Iron Fist, Ka-Zar and Wolverine. Heck, he recently one-punched Karnak. Now anyone who still doubts the awesomeness of the Panther, can take a look at this particular thread (http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=75726&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=77d912543202ea7a0b1bda33c302f639), which gives a play-by-play of the Panther's feats, by year!

You might notice that the Panther and Hulk have faced off before. First off in Avengers Annual #2, where the Black Panther is capable to keep standing. He's not fighting the Hulk as much as he's stalling for time. I want to note that before that, the Panther also took down the Thing back in his first appearance, and was later even capable of single-handidly taking down the New Warriors (including Nova, Speedball and Namorita).

Now, he faces Hulk again with in an issue of Defenders. Another important battle is in Priest's run, where he is capable of hanging with the Savage Hulk once again. He'll be able to survive close combat thanks to his vibranium. You can see a page from that fight here (http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prehulk2kj.jpg). Interesting to see as well is him robbing the momentum from a Hulk-thrown car, here (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hulkcar.jpg).

Of course, these are not Panther's greatest assets. He's a technological and scientific genius. Exempting for one moment the possibility that Panther is able to (temporarily) cure Banner, he's got numerous devices to aid him. He's got sonic blasters, vibranium cages, you name it. He's got the resources of the Von Doom/Richards caliber. Let's also not forget that the Panther is in his natural element here - the jungle. This is David and Goliath while David is holding a really really big gun.

So, beyond the fact that the Panther has been shown to able to take the Hulk's blows, as well as dodge them, he's got the scientific resources to take the Hulk down. It won't be easy, but he's got 24 hours, and we already know he has numerous plans for dealing with the Hulk, and Panther's plans have pretty much shown to work nine times out of ten. He can win it, and he will.

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9533/panther2tx4.jpg
WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Harlekin

06-06-2007, 02:53 PM

OPENING COMMENTS: Damien Hellstrom vs Banshee

I like Banshee. Nay, I love Banshee. Sadly, he doesn't stand a chance. Hellstrom is Lord of Hell. Neither of the two will know of the other, so both will be going in blind, an advantage for Hellstrom. He's ruthless, and will despose of his foe as fast as he can. Considering his powers, he can do that quite quickly. Anyone doubting his powers, check out this detailed profile (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/hellstormdaimon.htm) of him.

If Banshee somehow manages to surprise him, he still won't be fast enough to take care of Hellstrom. Not only will he not go for a finishing blow immediately, as he's more inclined to talk things out if possible, Damien has quite the experience with... screams. He should have adequate defenses against Banshee's powers, and he'll take care of this quickly.

http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/4182/hellstormog5.jpg
WINNER=DAMIEN HELLSTROM

Ahura Mazda

06-07-2007, 03:37 AM

NOT QUITE A REMATCH:

Black Panther (HARLEKIN) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Black-Panther.jpg

vs.

Savage Hulk (AHURA MAZDA) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulk_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_hulk1.gif

(This match is delayed from last week. It will still take place in the Savage Land to make things fair. It will be as if they are fighting for the first time, so not really a rematch.)

The Savage Hulk, referring to the current marvel handbook, starts at class 100 not at 80 tons.

Second with regard his intelligence the current Hulk is as follows and this is a direct quote from Marvel:

IH: EOD: There are always discussions on different Hulk incarnations, which version are you using?

GP: Peter David left us with a great version of the Hulk --he’s intelligent but dangerous, able to make his own choices and deal rationally with the world, but savage enough to make us always wonder just when he’ll lose control in the face of provocation and temptation.

GP is Greg Pak, the current writer of the Hulk comics, including WWH.

Third before I start, I wanted to refer to certain feats of the Hulk:

Hulk Feats (http://www.incrediblehulk.com/incrediblefeats.html)

Ok having gotten that out of the way, let me get to the battle:

This is a match between 2 that have faced each other before but whereas for one it was a battle for his survival, the other was distracted by other things.

The Hulk being intelligent now is going to know about the Black panther and his suit. So really he can go about his match two ways.

The Hulk will also be raving mad as he has just been shot off into space and his spaceship has just been sucked into a wormhole after breaking up (last panel before Planet Hulk).

His powers will be all hyped up as he will also soak up gamma radiation to the tilt during his prep time.

The Black panther is a peak Human with a vibranium suit.

The Hulk will seek out the Black panther and given he is faster (jumping and all) he will locate him. Now, one thing to note with this battle is that any physical battle will eventually leave the Black Panther defeated and down. The Hulk could rip him apart or throw him into space without breaking a sweat, based solely on strength. The other thing the Hulk could do is peel off the Blackpanther's costume which has shown signs of tear in the past. Even if he does not, the Hulk can build up enough strength to knock Black panther out, as he has been in the past.

Please note this current version of the Hulk is even more impervious plus his healing factor has been amped up. The Hulk has survived a nova blast by Johnny Storm with just a few hairs less.

The Black Panther is no challenge to the Hulk considering last time they met he was working hard just to survive the encounter when the Hulk did not have his full attention directed at him. And this was a child like not totally unhappy Hulk. Unlike the enraged intelligent Hulk the Black panther is fighting today.

Winner - Hulk

Ahura Mazda

06-07-2007, 04:06 AM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Savage Hulk

For this one, I'll also borrow a page from Black Panther's matches, because it's much easier to repost these things. What is the one thing that defines the Panther? Prep-time. So, first off, let's handle his powers and pointing you to some great respect threads.

Strength, speed and endurance

Other skills

Standard equipment

For more of an idea of what the Panther can do, I invite you to look at this respect thread (http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t405357.html), detailing some of the awesome feats he's pulled off. Let's recap a few things here: Black Panther originally tested himself against the Fantastic Four, he's stared down Iron Man, has held his own against guys like Captain America, Iron Fist, Ka-Zar and Wolverine. Heck, he recently one-punched Karnak. Now anyone who still doubts the awesomeness of the Panther, can take a look at this particular thread (http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=75726&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=77d912543202ea7a0b1bda33c302f639), which gives a play-by-play of the Panther's feats, by year!

You might notice that the Panther and Hulk have faced off before. First off in Avengers Annual #2, where the Black Panther is capable to keep standing. He's not fighting the Hulk as much as he's stalling for time. I want to note that before that, the Panther also took down the Thing back in his first appearance, and was later even capable of single-handidly taking down the New Warriors (including Nova, Speedball and Namorita).

Now, he faces Hulk again with in an issue of Defenders. Another important battle is in Priest's run, where he is capable of hanging with the Savage Hulk once again. He'll be able to survive close combat thanks to his vibranium. You can see a page from that fight here (http://img70.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prehulk2kj.jpg). Interesting to see as well is him robbing the momentum from a Hulk-thrown car, here (http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hulkcar.jpg).

I think survive is the key word and this was not an intelligent Hulk but a stupid one. the current hulk wil remeber his previous battle and know to strike Panther directly and to take off his suit. One thing to note that in close contact Black Panther was not capable of hurting the Hulk.

Of course, these are not Panther's greatest assets. He's a technological and scientific genius. Exempting for one moment the possibility that Panther is able to (temporarily) cure Banner, he's got numerous devices to aid him. He's got sonic blasters, vibranium cages, you name it. He's got the resources of the Von Doom/Richards caliber. Let's also not forget that the Panther is in his natural element here - the jungle. This is David and Goliath while David is holding a really really big gun.

The thing is that the Illumunati could find no other solution but to shoot him out to space. Therefore you are suggesting Black panther all by himself in 24 hours is going to design, develop and create a weapon capable of curing or severely weakenning the Hulk. It seems quite improbable. No weapon exists today to do so.

And also let us note that the Hulk also feels perfectly natural in a jungle. And regarding David vs Goliath, Goliath was never as big, as strong, as impervious and as angry as the Hulk. No simple Gun is going to do him harm. Unless you are saying the black panther has a gun that packs more of a punch then the Human Torch going nova or a nuclear blast (in the Hulk feats link).

So, beyond the fact that the Panther has been shown to able to take the Hulk's blows, as well as dodge them, he's got the scientific resources to take the Hulk down. It won't be easy, but he's got 24 hours, and we already know he has numerous plans for dealing with the Hulk, and Panther's plans have pretty much shown to work nine times out of ten. He can win it, and he will.

So does Spiderman, but somehow the combinned minds of the illumunati had to jet him off into space because they, the most brilliant minds could not figure out a way to get rid of him. Of course, they did set the spaceship to explode which the Hulk survived (not part of this battle as this was part of the planet Hulk arc). It just shows that no one has ever been able to cure the Hulk except for the Silver Surfer at one stage eventhough this was never repeated.

WINNER=The Hulk

Ahura Mazda

06-07-2007, 04:28 AM

Match 4:

Scarlet Witch (AHURA MAZDA) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlet_Witch)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_scarletwitch.jpg

vs.

Georgeous George (HARLEKIN) bio (http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/pov/showquestion.asp?faq=5&fldAuto=48)

(NO PICTURE AVAILABLE)

This is an interesting battle or could have been if the Scarlet Witch was not who she was.

First off let me get powers out of the way:

Initially, the Scarlet Witch had the ability to manipulate probability via her "hexes" (often manifesting physically as "hex spheres" or "hex bolts"). These hexes are relatively short range, and are limited to her line of sight. Casting a hex requires a gesture and concentration on her part, though the gestures are largely a focus for the concentration. Early in her career, her hexes were unconscious on her part, and would be automatically triggered whenever she made a particular gesture, regardless of her intent. These hexes would only manifest random "bad luck" effects: objects falling or breaking, people tripping, and so on. She later gained enough control over her powers that her powers only work when she wants them to, and they are not limited to negative effects. Despite this enhanced precision, her hexes are not necessarily guaranteed to work, particularly if she has been straining herself or using her powers excessively. If overextended, her hexes can backfire, causing probability to work against her wishes or to undo previous hexes.

Scarlet Witch in action, employing magic to augment her mutant hex, art by George Perez and Sam Grainger.Her hexes seem to have a wide, almost limitless variety of recorded and possible effects, though they often boil down to a kind of Deus Ex Machina superpower. They have been known to alter the molecular composition and physical state of physical objects, negate or distort physical laws, and to cause various forms of energy to spontaneously appear or disappear. She has an affinity with natural elements and phenomena, stemming largely from her magical training under Agatha Harkness, and has trained often at using her hexes to deflect projectiles or to cause enemies to stumble or otherwise suffer the effects of "bad luck". Writers often confuse her hex powers with psychokinesis, and have occasionally depicted them as able to generate energy blasts and to grant Wanda the power of flight[issue # needed]. Although her hexes can cause objects to suddenly move or change course, they do not have the ability to "hold on" to objects as a telekinetic might[citation needed]. Ultimately, the hexes are not under the Witch's direct control, although she can influence the nature of their effects with great concentration and effort. This makes her one of the few Avengers that Ultron fears; his adamantium shell cannot repel her magic. She has displayed the ability to cancel Longshot and Domino's powers of probability and has also once turned Longshot into a cat[issue # needed].

The first major reclassification of Wanda's fairly-indistinct hex powers came during Kurt Busiek's run on Avengers, where her power was claimed by Agatha Harkness to be an ability to manipulate chaos magic, given to her by the demon Chthon (imprisoned within Wundagore Mountain) when she was born. Her hexes were, by extension, simple, indirect manifestations of this magic, destabilising probabilities by inducing chaos. Across Busiek's run, Wanda's powers grew continuously, as she gained the ability to manipulate organic matter and summon Wonder Man back to life. While in the DC Universe (during the Jla/Avengers crossover, she displayed the ability to access that universe's chaos magic, but had great difficulty in doing so at first, since it was more powerful there and she had no previous experience in wielding it.

This is before Bendis and the reality warping, so it should all be valid.

Georgehas a physical structure is composed of tar-like ooze that he can stretch and expand at will, adhere to solid material, reduce to a formless puddle, and use to encase or constrict around solid objects.

Now Scarlet Witch could hex the hell out of George and he will have absolutely no defense against the chaos magic she wields.

But before I go there, prep time will be more advantageous for her as she will have complete knowledge on Avalon from the Avenger's database, and personal experience. Also, she may have knowledge of George given all her resources

The issue really is he has no defense to what she can do and as experienced as she is, he will find himself in severe difficulty. Plus she has the advantage of knowing Avalon very well and can use the resources there to entrap George.

Last but not least, let us not forget her chaos magic could just as well transform him into a statue made of tar.

There is no defense against the magic she wields and George is at best a 2nd to third tier mutant. The scarlet witch will take the not so gorgeous George down.

Winner - Scarlet Witch

Harlekin

06-08-2007, 07:53 AM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Hulk
Second with regard his intelligence the current Hulk is as follows and this is a direct quote from Marvel:

GP is Greg Pak, the current writer of the Hulk comics, including WWH.
That's all nice and dandy, and I know you have specified this in other matches as well, but this shouldn't apply. That is the Hulk. The character you have is the Savage Hulk. If it's the Hulk as he is currently (or just before the comp started anyway), he'd be labelled: Hulk. He's not. He's labelled Savage Hulk. That means we've got a dumb Hulk, otherwise it wouldn't have been needed to be labelled.

Now, I'll refrain on responding anything that is argumented on the notion the Hulk's intelligent, because by all rights he shouldn't be. That also means he's not übermad and having just survived an exploding spaceship.

The Hulk will seek out the Black panther and given he is faster (jumping and all) he will locate him. Now, one thing to note with this battle is that any physical battle will eventually leave the Black Panther defeated and down. The Hulk could rip him apart or throw him into space without breaking a sweat, based solely on strength. The other thing the Hulk could do is peel off the Blackpanther's costume which has shown signs of tear in the past. Even if he does not, the Hulk can build up enough strength to knock Black panther out, as he has been in the past.
- The Hulk's jumping ability is severely impaired in the jungle.
- The Black Panther can literally fight for days, so he won't be tired easily.
- Hulk's strength is negated by the vibranium.
- The Panther's suit would need tearing by say a special knife or something like that. It would logically not tear by Hulk's hands, as he would not be able to get a grip.
- The Panther is mostly going to play an evasion game, considering he wouldn't want to get hit by the Hulk, and he can avoid the Hulk. That's kinda his thing.

I think survive is the key word and this was not an intelligent Hulk but a stupid one. the current hulk wil remeber his previous battle and know to strike Panther directly and to take off his suit. One thing to note that in close contact Black Panther was not capable of hurting the Hulk.
Not hurting Hulk does not equal incapable of hurting him. He was not in the fight to hurt Hulk, but to simply minimalize damage and get him to revert to his human form. As I've already said, the Hulk wouldn't be intelligent.

The thing is that the Illumunati could find no other solution but to shoot him out to space. Therefore you are suggesting Black panther all by himself in 24 hours is going to design, develop and create a weapon capable of curing or severely weakenning the Hulk. It seems quite improbable. No weapon exists today to do so.
I'm not saying a permanent cure, but he should be able to cough up something to help him in this match. Using herbs, magic and science, he should be able to calm the Hulk down and revert him to human form. Even then, he's got access to the strongest metal around, vibranium. Wolverine almost killed the Hulk while he was under Apocalypse's thrall.

Since the Hulk is not intelligent, and has a child like manner of thinking, the Panther should be able to combine not only his own psychological tactics but also herbs, magics and science in order to take down the Hulk. The Panther's main strategy will be to talk the Hulk down and get him to become Banner. Once he becomes Banner, the match is pretty much over.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Harlekin

06-08-2007, 08:08 AM

FINAL COMMENTS: Gorgeous George vs Scarlet Witch

Scarlet Witch is a hottie.

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6333/sw2re3.jpg
WINNER=GORGEOUS GEORGE

Ahura Mazda

06-08-2007, 10:07 AM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Hulk - here I go again thanks to my computer freezing up :mad:

That's all nice and dandy, and I know you have specified this in other matches as well, but this shouldn't apply. That is the Hulk. The character you have is the Savage Hulk. If it's the Hulk as he is currently (or just before the comp started anyway), he'd be labelled: Hulk. He's not. He's labelled Savage Hulk. That means we've got a dumb Hulk, otherwise it wouldn't have been needed to be labelled.

Now, I'll refrain on responding anything that is argumented on the notion the Hulk's intelligent, because by all rights he shouldn't be. That also means he's not übermad and having just survived an exploding spaceship.

This is a heavy point of contention. When I asked Phaed, it was confirmed that I had the latest version of the Hulk just before the Planet hulk story line. If this has changed again I would like to know about it and I could then respond, but until then all I can say is I think you are basing everything you say on a false assumption.

Therefore, my version of the SAVAGE HULK is intelligent and uber mad from being launched into space. That was the latsest verion of the savage Hulk and is the one battling today.

- The Hulk's jumping ability is severely impaired in the jungle.

Why you think trees can stop him or even bother him. You do know the Hulk has spent some time in jungles and he can break wood.

- The Black Panther can literally fight for days, so he won't be tired easily.

The Hulk's endurance is greater then the Black panther's not even mentioning that we are talking about someone with arguably the best healing powers in Marvel.

-- Hulk's strength is negated by the vibranium.

It would not negate him throwing BP into orbit if he wanted to nor punching him far enough away where he is out of the battle field. Plus even when he took blows that did not stop him from being thrown away and feeling the impact. This was a weaker version of the Hulk he is facing. Vibranium does not protect the lack panther against everything or he would never have been knocked out in a comic with his costume torn up.

-- - The Panther's suit would need tearing by say a special knife or something like that. It would logically not tear by Hulk's hands, as he would not be able to get a grip.

Now it could just be peeled off of his body by someone who has unimaginable strength.

- The Panther is mostly going to play an evasion game, considering he wouldn't want to get hit by the Hulk, and he can avoid the Hulk. That's kinda his thing.

And the Hulk will be playing a smashing game which will onsist on the Black Panther getting ever stronger blows reining down on his head.

- Not hurting Hulk does not equal incapable of hurting him. He was not in the fight to hurt Hulk, but to simply minimalize damage and get him to revert to his human form. As I've already said, the Hulk wouldn't be intelligent.

The BP’s claws were not able top penetrate his skin. His punches would have no effect. And the Hulk would be intelligent. Just because you say something does not make that true.

- I'm not saying a permanent cure, but he should be able to cough up something to help him in this match. Using herbs, magic and science, he should be able to calm the Hulk down and revert him to human form. Even then, he's got access to the strongest metal around, vibranium. Wolverine almost killed the Hulk while he was under Apocalypse's thrall.

That battle ended with the Hulk smashing him into the ground and then jumping away because he knew it was Wolverine and he was not himself. And if you want to talk about Wolverine who has adamantium claws and a healing factor, in their last face off in a Punisher comic the Hulk hit him so hard that he flew out of the battle field.

[QUOTE=Harlekin;11822180Since the Hulk is not intelligent, and has a child like manner of thinking, the Panther should be able to combine not only his own psychological tactics but also herbs, magics and science in order to take down the Hulk. The Panther's main strategy will be to talk the Hulk down and get him to become Banner. Once he becomes Banner, the match is pretty much over. [/QUOTE]

Harlekin I am going to refrain from being rude but your whole basis of the Hulk is stupid every 10 lines is wrong. The Hulk has gone through many incarnations and the current Savage Hulk is intelligent.

And surprisingly, when the Black panther tried to fight the Hulk before he had no special magics and oter items that would allow him to change the Hulk into Banner.

By the way, you do know that they pretty much control the transformations now, right and that Banner has shown a small measure of super strength during the Bruce Jones run just before the Hulk smashed and killed Abomination (killed in the Marvel sense).

The Black Panther is not in his league and you know this. Here is just one thing else the Hulk can do against the Black Panther:

The Hulk blows down a forest. IH #273
http://files.photojerk.com/Jonathanos/STRENGTH/SuperBreath-IH273.jpg

Blow the Black panther away.

And just to add to how Black Panther could not hurt the Hulk, Karnak who has 1 ton strength cannot harm the Hulk by hitting him exactly in his weakest area.

http://www.incrediblehulk.com/karnakresistance.jpg

Black Panther does not even have 1 ton strength. The hulk is an unstoppable engine of destruction that the Avengers have trouble with and that Thor always had a hard time with. The Black panther is a great character but he is not in a league with the current enraged Hulk.

WINNER=The Hulk

Ahura Mazda

06-08-2007, 10:10 AM

FINAL COMMENTS: Gorgeous George vs Scarlet Witch

Scarlet Witch is a hottie.

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6333/sw2re3.jpg

Nice drawing, you do it?

Harlekin

06-08-2007, 12:35 PM

Nice drawing, you do it?
No, no. Pulled it off the 'net.

Harlekin

06-08-2007, 12:53 PM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Savage Hulk

I'm moving most of the discussion on the character's incarnation to the discussion thread.

Why you think trees can stop him or even bother him. You do know the Hulk has spent some time in jungles and he can break wood.
He'd continually have to smash through trees on his way up and down, really giving him little chance to properly see the area, and this would be quite a foolish method to locate the Panther with.

The Hulk's endurance is greater then the Black panther's not even mentioning that we are talking about someone with arguably the best healing powers in Marvel.
Of course his endurance and healing are better. The Hulk however can still be knocked out, and he can still be killed, and more importantly, he can be reverted back to Banner.

It would not negate him throwing BP into orbit if he wanted to nor punching him far enough away where he is out of the battle field. Plus even when he took blows that did not stop him from being thrown away and feeling the impact. This was a weaker version of the Hulk he is facing. Vibranium does not protect the lack panther against everything or he would never have been knocked out in a comic with his costume torn up.
True, although the Panther's agility and the locale will prevent from him being thrown very far. Besides, like I've said, the Panther isn't likely to engage Hulk in hand-to-hand combat for the entire match, while working psychology.

Now it could just be peeled off of his body by someone who has unimaginable strength.
It's unlikely the Hulk will go for this tactic, and it'll still be pretty hard.

The BP’s claws were not able top penetrate his skin. His punches would have no effect. And the Hulk would be intelligent. Just because you say something does not make that true.
He's gonna pack the meanest stuff he has. His standard issue claws wouldn't be able, but some vibranium, maybe even adamantium, it'll cut through his skin. And just because you say the Hulk will be intelligent doesn't make it true either. For Pete's sake, it's the savage Hulk! Savages aren't intelligent.

That battle ended with the Hulk smashing him into the ground and then jumping away because he knew it was Wolverine and he was not himself. And if you want to talk about Wolverine who has adamantium claws and a healing factor, in their last face off in a Punisher comic the Hulk hit him so hard that he flew out of the battle field.
- Only because Wolverine stopped his assault.
- Considering Ennis' "love" for superheroes, I wouldn't take anything from the Punisher comics as any type of gospel. Ennis has a tendency to make the other heroes into idiots.

Harlekin I am going to refrain from being rude but your whole basis of the Hulk is stupid every 10 lines is wrong. The Hulk has gone through many incarnations and the current Savage Hulk is intelligent.
- Like you constantly refer to the fact that he's intelligent?
- The whole point of the Savage Hulk is that he's not intelligent.

And surprisingly, when the Black panther tried to fight the Hulk before he had no special magics and oter items that would allow him to change the Hulk into Banner.
In his fights with Hulk, he was mostly surprised, or taken off his guard. He now has 24 hours of prep-time to take him on. Besides, Hulk into Banner would be a psych process, mostly.

By the way, you do know that they pretty much control the transformations now, right and that Banner has shown a small measure of super strength during the Bruce Jones run just before the Hulk smashed and killed Abomination (killed in the Marvel sense).
Yeah I know of that, but Bruce Banner isn't ever going to have a chance against the Panther.

The Black Panther is not in his league and you know this.
If I really thought he wasn't, I would not have given you this rematch.

And just to add to how Black Panther could not hurt the Hulk, Karnak who has 1 ton strength cannot harm the Hulk by hitting him exactly in his weakest area.
And yet Wolverine can. The Hulk is quite inconsistent.

Now, Black Panther can talk the Hulk down and that's really all that's needed. The Panther is one of the most intelligent (wo)men in the world, quite likely in the top five. He's got technology and skills that have helped him face foes that anyone would say he has no business fighting. The Panther will prevail.

Also, if you don't believe the Hulk can be talked down by anyone but Rick Jones or Betsy Ross: Matt Murdock has done it too. (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/2845464.html#cutid1)

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Phaedrus45

06-08-2007, 01:12 PM

Tana Nile vs. Psylocke:

Sadly, I felt I had to choose Tana Nile over Kid Omega; because, with Psylocke's defeat of Professor Xavier, I felt like Kid Omega not stand a good chance. This match up is much better for my character's chances.

Here are the bios.

Tana Nile:

Fighting Skills: Good hand-to-hand combatant, trained in Rigellian martial arts
Special Skills/Abilities: Highly skilled in infiltration of alien races and in terraforming planets
Superhuman physical powers: Ability to increase her own density at will, increasing her strength and resistance to physical injury
Superhuman Mental Powers: Psionic ability to control the mind of another humanoid or to override another humanoid's control of his or her voluntary muscles (through "mind thrust")
Personal Weaponry: "Stasis gun" that can project concussive energy or intense heat

Psylocke:

AbilitiesTelekinesis (stronger since her resurrection).
Psychic katana.
Immunity to telepathy and all forms of mental, magical and physical alteration.

Now, neither character will know about the other; but, Psylocke should have some basic information on the location. The problem for Psylocke is this location works to Tana Nile's advantage. The telepathic abilities won't help Tana; but, she is resistant to the effects of space, and will come prepared. Her statis gun will prove effective in taking out Psylocke, if the chance presents itself. Both are very skilled fighters, and Tana will realize she can do one thing to win this match...blow Psylocke out into space. Even if Tana gets blown, too, it won't matter. One will live, and one will die. The one who dies is Psylocke, and Tana will emerge victorious.

Winner = Tana Nile

Phaedrus45

06-08-2007, 01:17 PM

Frankie Raye vs. Cable:

First, Frankie's bio:

Frankie Raye:

Powers Nova could manipulate cosmic energy in the form of stellar fire, surrounding herself in a flaming aura. Her portion of the power cosmic allowed her to manipulate all forms of energy, fly at warp speed, and survive in outer space.

Also to note:

Strength Level: Nova can lift about 40 tons.

In addition:

*"Nova possesses the ability to manipulate cosmic energy in the form of stellar fire...These energies make her the humanoid equivalent of a miniature sun. Projecting from any point on her body by mental command, Nova's energies encompass the entire electromagnetic spectrum possessed by a star: heat, light, gravity, radio waves, and charged particles. The maximum amount of heat she can produce appears to be 900,000 degrees Fahrenheit....With a minor manifestation of her stellar powers, she can burn through any Earthly substance (with the exception of Adamantium.)....Nova can control the path of her cosmic fire to such an extent that she can project a sustained ring of flame at a fixed distance around any object."

*"As a consequence of her cosmic form and metabolism, Nova is far stronger and more durable than an ordinary human being. Although she still possesses a physical body, she is virtually impervious to most forms of physical harm. Her body automatically incinerates any projectile that comes within her fiery corona."

Location is the interesting factor in this match. Avalon is Cable's old home, and he'll use it to his advantage. The problem is obvious. Frankie Raye will not be confined within this space. She will take the battle outside and all she has to do is destroy the space station. Cable will have one option, and that is bodyslide out of the area. By bodysliding, he forfeits the contest. It's really his only option. He's not used to fighting Cosmic Beings, and there is nothing that indicates he'd know who Frankie Raye is.

Location screws Cable more than helps in the end.

Winner = Frankie Raye

Ahura Mazda

06-10-2007, 04:16 PM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Savage Hulk

He'd continually have to smash through trees on his way up and down, really giving him little chance to properly see the area, and this would be quite a foolish method to locate the Panther with.

He can also jump and avoid trees. The Savage Land is not the Amazon which is why you have dinosaurs that can roam there.

PLus he will locate BP readily enough.

Of course his endurance and healing are better. The Hulk however can still be knocked out, and he can still be killed, and more importantly, he can be reverted back to Banner.

Regarding your first point, no one has found out a way to kill Hulk. He has regenerated from a skeleton in less then 11 minutes. He has been knocked out in the past and recent pre-Planet Hulk comics we have not seen him being knocked out at all. Yes in the older comics it happenned but it has not in a very long while.

True, although the Panther's agility and the locale will prevent from him being thrown very far. Besides, like I've said, the Panther isn't likely to engage Hulk in hand-to-hand combat for the entire match, while working psychology.

If he gets thrown straight into the air by a creature who is considerably stronger then a typical class 100, no agility will stop him from being tossed outside of the battle field.

And psychology will not work given that the Hulk mis aware of Banner and his relationship with him and has been throughout the Bruce Jones run. Banner and the Hulk were changing into each other as they pleased.

It's unlikely the Hulk will go for this tactic, and it'll still be pretty hard.

It is not unlikely at all given who the Hulk has evolved to before Pak inherited him. And it is not that hard when you have his strength.

He's gonna pack the meanest stuff he has. His standard issue claws wouldn't be able, but some vibranium, maybe even adamantium, it'll cut through his skin. And just because you say the Hulk will be intelligent doesn't make it true either. For Pete's sake, it's the savage Hulk! Savages aren't intelligent.

First off the claws, vibranium claws is what he was wearing when he attacked Hulk and they were unable to penetrate his skin. Adamantium claws are a possibility but unlikely as only creatures who have had it fused to their body have been able to ciut him with it. Plus claws would not go deep enough to do any damage, especially the Hulk who heals very quicly even from Wolverine's very big claws. Also, the Black Panther has a ready supply of vibranium not adamantium. Plus he would have to create claws from adamantium in his prep time by himself. That is a tall order.

Second, I am not just saying this but if you have read any Hulk comic before Planet Hulk you could see it. I do not have a scanner to show it but it was the case. When he fought Abomination the Hulk was deliberate and mindful of what he was doing.

- Only because Wolverine stopped his assault.
- Considering Ennis' "love" for superheroes, I wouldn't take anything from the Punisher comics as any type of gospel. Ennis has a tendency to make the other heroes into idiots.

Well in continuity, the Hulk smashed him into the ground after a brief hesitation of Death (Wolverine hyped up by Apocolypse) in a Wolverine comic book. He also punched him miles awayin continuity yet again.

- Like you constantly refer to the fact that he's intelligent?
- The whole point of the Savage Hulk is that he's not intelligent.

I am referring to the Hulk that preceded the Planet Hulk run and he was not stupid. Phaed is now stating he is very similar in intelligence to Planet Hulk. Not as intelligent as he was in the end of the series I give you. This Hulk no longer says Hulk smash and looks for Banner his hated foe. He knows that Banner is inside him and they are almoost integrated. As you very well know, during Bruce Jones run, the Hulk could use Banner's intelligence and Banner could use a measure of Hulk's strength.

In his fights with Hulk, he was mostly surprised, or taken off his guard. He now has 24 hours of prep-time to take him on. Besides, Hulk into Banner would be a psych process, mostly.

Given they revert back and forth freely now (and this was during Bruce Jones) how is he going to do that. Even if he did banner could revert immediately back to the Hulk. This is again not the same Hulk which you may have read during Sal Buscema and Bill Mantlo times. This Hulk is intelligent; not like Banner but a battlelike intelligence.

Yeah I know of that, but Bruce Banner isn't ever going to have a chance against the Panther.

This is pretty moot as it would never happen. And banner could survive the 2 seconds it would take him to revert back. As I stated above Bruce Jones run (which was boring as hell) allowed Banner to change into Hulk at will and to be able to use a measure of his power even when he was in his Banner form.

If I really thought he wasn't, I would not have given you this rematch.

I appreciate that you did give me the rematch but you have Hulk, who was a foe of Thor, the Avengers, the U-foes, the Abomination, etc., etc. against someone who was the Black version of captain america with very similar powers and a body suit to replace a shield. He is a great character but he is not in the league of the Hulk.

And yet Wolverine can. The Hulk is quite inconsistent.

Yes well Wolverine is often written like the Batman of the Marvel universe. However, Wolverine more often then not gets his ass handed to him by the Hulk and he has a healing factor and claws Black Panther does not.

Now, Black Panther can talk the Hulk down and that's really all that's needed. The Panther is one of the most intelligent (wo)men in the world, quite likely in the top five. He's got technology and skills that have helped him face foes that anyone would say he has no business fighting. The Panther will prevail.

Also, if you don't believe the Hulk can be talked down by anyone but Rick Jones or Betsy Ross: http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/2845464.html#cutid1

If you look down that scan he is also on his knees with the Hulk ready to strike. Plus this was not a Hulk intent on Daredevil where this willl be a Hulk intent on the Black panther. In addition, this is an older versio of the hulk.

And the Hulk can take down the Black panther much more probably then the reverse. There is 1 chance out of a thousand using logic and possibly 1 out of a hundred using comic book logic the the Black Panther could prevail. Every other time the Hulk would win and this is a battle to decide who would be the likely victor.

WINNER=THE HULK

Ahura Mazda

06-12-2007, 05:29 AM

I am just going to add a conclusion and leave this debate at that.

This fight is simply whether you believe that the Black panther is going to come up with some deus ex machina device that allows him to win, given none has existed before.

By himself (and I mean without the deus ex machina), he cannot harm the Hulk no matter what incarnation it is and the Hulk can harm him.

Now regarding the intelligence level of the Hulk and the ability to transform, I would refer you to the discussion thread where there is a whole discussion on it as it required/requires a ruling which is being sorted out.

Harlekin

06-12-2007, 06:36 AM

FINAL COMMENTS: Black Panther vs Hulk

I'm going for last comments too because I've really become sick of this debate and wished I'd saved myself the trouble. Although my opponent would like you to believe otherwise, the Panther has more than an ample chance at beating the Hulk, which I've hopefully been able to make clear.

He's faced strong opponents before (including the Hulk), and the Panther has only become more adept as time has gone one. He's defeated the likes of the Thing and Mephisto, and has shown to be able to plan (and have plans) for almost anything and anyone.

His natural resources have allowed him, a mere mortal, to stand up to the Hulk on two occasions before without any preparation. With 24 hours of prep-time, this top 5 genius should be capable of defeating the Hulk. He's proficient in science and a little bit in magic as well.

Wolverine of all people is a rather regular challenge of the Hulk, and it was only because he resisted Poccy's programming that he didn't kill the Hulk. The Black Panther is, based on physique and intelligence quite a few leagues above Wolverine, and has more resources at his disposal as well.

Here's a man that, with the exception of a few people, has more info on the Hulk than anyone else (own files, Avengers files etc.). He's the king of the most technologically advanced nation of the world, and has shown the ability to adapt to almost any situation. He's a brilliant tactician and a great fighter. His stealth abilities are unparallelled.

Panther can beat the Hulk, and even if you only think it's 6/10 chance, vote for him. He can do it.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Phaedrus45

06-12-2007, 10:53 AM

Ahura Mazda

06-12-2007, 12:37 PM

Ok, from the research I've done, I would feel comfortable to say this is the Hulk after Peter David's last run, ending with Tempus Fugit. It seems to have the type of Hulk that JH and I were thinking of. Not intelligent, but not the complete moron who'd only say "Hulk Smash." So, you can go up to issue 82. So, once all the House of M stuff starts, consider it unable to use.

I believe this is the most fair. After all, we can't use House of M, since it's an alternate world kind of thing. And, in between House of M and Planet Hulk, you only have about 4 comics, including him being shot into space.

Ok so that includes Bruce Jones run, him able to control the transformations and adapt to an environment (like he did to breathe underwater).

It will however not include the part where I said he is angry because he was shot into space. I am not going to rewrite it but you can assume that he will still be very angry and the madder the Hulk gets the stronger he gets.

Phaedrus45

06-15-2007, 05:43 PM

Voting May Begin!!!

Phaedrus45

06-15-2007, 05:48 PM

Hey guys. I waited and waited for Hippy to debate the Cable match. At this point in the competition, I really want the best character to win. If you sincerly believe Cable can beat Frankie Raye, I would rather have you vote that way than win by default. I stand behind my argument; I just don't want anyone voting for me simply because Hippy didn't have a chance to debate.

Phaedrus45

06-15-2007, 05:59 PM

*Tana Nile

*Damien Hellstrom

*Frankie Raye

*Scarlet Witch

*Black Panther - (Simply a great match. Hulk would win this, if not for prep-time. Sadly, prep-time does little for Hulk and benefits Black Panther way too much.)

kytrigger

06-15-2007, 09:48 PM

Scarlet Witch

Frankie Raye

Hellstrom

Tana Nile

Black Panther- The prep does give him a huge advantage, and while I doubt he could kill the Hulk or anything, I do think he would be able to capture/subdue him for a long enough time to get the win.

wiegeabo

06-15-2007, 10:21 PM

Psylocke (immunity to telepathy helps her greatly giving her time to use her psychic knife. And her immunity to her body being changed may protect her from the stasis gun)
Damien Hellstrom (too much power)
Frankie Raye (Although I don't think she'd hurt Cable, Phead convinced me she could force him to flee the station. I just wish Hippy could have countered that argument)
Scarlet Witch (just a great character to have in the tourney)
Black Panther (being able to use all his prior fights and Wakandian tech, Panther can take this. Just barely)

Harlekin

06-16-2007, 04:12 AM

Tana Nile
Damien Hellstrom
Frankie Raye - Although I've got to note that Frankie is not ruthless and wouldn't destroy Avalon just like that with a still living person on it.
Gorgeous George
Black Panther

Ahura Mazda

06-16-2007, 06:40 AM

Tana Nile
Hellstrom
Frankie
Scarlet Witch
The Incredible Hulk

JewishHobbit

06-16-2007, 11:08 AM

Psylocke
Hellstrom
Scarlet Witch
Cable (I think he can easily pull it off myself)

I'm going back and forth on the Hulk/BP match. It's the BP with preptime that's getting me. If not for that I think Hulk would have it 100%. Then again, this is the Hulk, and a good version of him that can adapt quicker than the dumb behemouth steriotypical hulk.

my vote.... Hulk.

Trigger

06-19-2007, 10:42 AM

Psylocke
Hellstorm
Hulk- I'm genuinely surprised that this is still being debated.
Scarlet Witch
Frankie Raye

hippy fascist

06-19-2007, 03:42 PM

Black Panther (He's almost as good with prep-time as batman, rematch killed it for the hulk)
Damien Hellstrom (Too much power)
Tana Nile (flexibility in powerset takes this)
Scarlet Witch
Cable (Wish I'd had time to debate him :()

Phaedrus45

06-19-2007, 05:22 PM

Final Results:

Tana Nile defeats Psylocke 5-3
Damien Hellstrom defeats Banshee 8-0
Frankie Raye defeats Cable 6-2
Scarlet Witch defeats Georgeous George 7-1
Black Panther defeats Savage Hulk 5-3

Ahura Mazda

06-20-2007, 03:54 AM

Dammit Hippy, this was not a rematch!!!

Good one Harlekin, I think this is the only time ever that the Black panther gets to beat the Hulk. :up:

Harlekin

06-20-2007, 03:58 AM

Yeah, it was quite a debate, Ahura. :up:

Steve Holt! :D

That's an Arrested Development reference.

hippy fascist

06-20-2007, 04:02 AM

Dammit Hippy, this was not a rematch!!!

Good one Harlekin, I think this is the only time ever that the Black panther gets to beat the Hulk. :up:

http://www.ditmoetjezien.nl/images/155x0/f7e7j1q71tw99d895427r473.jpg

And you know what the worst part is? I NEVER LEARNED TO READ! :mad::(

Phaedrus45

06-20-2007, 10:37 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg

Bracket 1,

Match 1:

Iron Man (PHAEDRUS45) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Iron-man.jpg

vs.

Gravitron (HARLEKIN) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graviton_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Graviton.jpg

Match 2:

Tana Nile (PHAEDRUS45) bio (http://www.immortalthor.net/bio-tananile.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_bio-tananile.jpg

vs.

Damien Hellstrom (HARLEKIN) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimon_Hellstrom)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_b7_2.jpg

Phaedrus45

06-20-2007, 10:42 AM

Bracket 2,

Match 1:

Sunfire - Exiles (KYTRIGGER) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/alternatex/exiles/sunfire.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_sunfire.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/?action=view&current=sunfire.jpg&refPage=60&imgAnch=imgAnch62)

vs.

Black Panther (HARLEKIN) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Black-Panther.jpg

Match 2:

Frankie Raye (PHAEDRUS45) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankie_Raye)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_12v3.jpg

vs.

Scarlet Witch (AHURA MAZDA) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlet_Witch)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_scarletwitch.jpg

Ahura Mazda

06-20-2007, 11:05 AM

Match 2:

Frankie Raye (PHAEDRUS45) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankie_Raye)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_12v3.jpg

vs.

Scarlet Witch (AHURA MAZDA) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlet_Witch)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_scarletwitch.jpg

This is an interesting battle or could have been if the Scarlet Witch was not who she was.

First off let me get powers out of the way:

Initially, the Scarlet Witch had the ability to manipulate probability via her "hexes" (often manifesting physically as "hex spheres" or "hex bolts"). These hexes are relatively short range, and are limited to her line of sight. Casting a hex requires a gesture and concentration on her part, though the gestures are largely a focus for the concentration. Early in her career, her hexes were unconscious on her part, and would be automatically triggered whenever she made a particular gesture, regardless of her intent. These hexes would only manifest random "bad luck" effects: objects falling or breaking, people tripping, and so on. She later gained enough control over her powers that her powers only work when she wants them to, and they are not limited to negative effects. Despite this enhanced precision, her hexes are not necessarily guaranteed to work, particularly if she has been straining herself or using her powers excessively. If overextended, her hexes can backfire, causing probability to work against her wishes or to undo previous hexes.

Scarlet Witch in action, employing magic to augment her mutant hex, art by George Perez and Sam Grainger.Her hexes seem to have a wide, almost limitless variety of recorded and possible effects, though they often boil down to a kind of Deus Ex Machina superpower. They have been known to alter the molecular composition and physical state of physical objects, negate or distort physical laws, and to cause various forms of energy to spontaneously appear or disappear. She has an affinity with natural elements and phenomena, stemming largely from her magical training under Agatha Harkness, and has trained often at using her hexes to deflect projectiles or to cause enemies to stumble or otherwise suffer the effects of "bad luck". Writers often confuse her hex powers with psychokinesis, and have occasionally depicted them as able to generate energy blasts and to grant Wanda the power of flight[issue # needed]. Although her hexes can cause objects to suddenly move or change course, they do not have the ability to "hold on" to objects as a telekinetic might[citation needed]. Ultimately, the hexes are not under the Witch's direct control, although she can influence the nature of their effects with great concentration and effort. This makes her one of the few Avengers that Ultron fears; his adamantium shell cannot repel her magic. She has displayed the ability to cancel Longshot and Domino's powers of probability and has also once turned Longshot into a cat[issue # needed].

The first major reclassification of Wanda's fairly-indistinct hex powers came during Kurt Busiek's run on Avengers, where her power was claimed by Agatha Harkness to be an ability to manipulate chaos magic, given to her by the demon Chthon (imprisoned within Wundagore Mountain) when she was born. Her hexes were, by extension, simple, indirect manifestations of this magic, destabilising probabilities by inducing chaos.

Across Busiek's run, Wanda's powers grew continuously, as she gained the ability to manipulate organic matter and summon Wonder Man back to life.

This is before Bendis and the reality warping, so it should all be valid.

Nova is a female ex-herald who was killed by Morg. She is powerful in her own right but she has no protection against magic.

Now Scarlet Witch could hex the hell out of Frankie and she will have absolutely no defense against the chaos magic she wields.

But before I go there, prep time will be more advantageous for her as she will have complete knowledge on the location from the Avenger's database. Also, she will have knowledge of Nova given all her resources and the Avenger's database.

The issue really is she has no defense to magic and as experienced as she is, nova will find herself in severe difficulty.

Last but not least, let us not forget her chaos magic could just as well transform Nova back into a a human just as easily as it could cause her to shoot herself.

There is no defense against the magic she wields and Nova is at best a 2nd to third tier ex-herald.

Really the decision that the voter must make is whether Nova can withstand the Scarlet Witch's magic, something which not even Ultron could protect against.

Winner - Scarlet Witch

Phaedrus45

06-20-2007, 11:16 AM

LOCATION: Hell's Kitchen (Populated)

In the Marvel Comics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Comics) universe, Hell's Kitchen is the home base of the superheroes Daredevil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daredevil_%28Marvel_Comics%29) and The Punisher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher), and the birthplace of Nick Fury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Fury).

To read up on this location, you can look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%27...n%2C_Manhattan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell%27s_Kitchen%2C_Manhattan)

Harlekin

06-20-2007, 11:42 AM

OPENING COMMENTS: Graviton vs Iron Man

Now, I have a feeling my opponent will be referencing this from Wikipedia: "Graviton was last seen, apparently alive and well, escaping the Raft (a metahuman prison). he fought and bested the New Avengers, but was defeated and almost killed by Iron Man after Hall severely injured Spider-Man." What I want you guys to know though, is that not only did he best the New Avengers before that moment, Graviton was caught off guard, and he was drugged up on power inhibitors from the Raft. Although the fight is legit, it doesn't really change anything, since Graviton has still beaten Iron Man more times than the other way around.

It is here (http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1041/avengers1584yp0.jpg) where Graviton (in his first appearance, while holding up an island) deflects Iron Man's blast by simply throwing up the floor. He proceeds to knocking him out in this scan (http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/3925/avengers1585sg4.jpg). Not much later, Iron Man is up against a slab, unable to move a muscle, here (http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/5509/avengers1595bt6.jpg). Iron Man is freed by Black Panther, and engages Graviton again. Instead of defeating him however, both he and Thor are bested by Graviton once more (http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/2636/avengers1599le0.jpg).

Now, I know, this is before Iron Man received any significant upgrades, but the same goes for Graviton. Not only that, but even with his original power levels intact, Graviton is capable of besting Iron Man again, together with the West Coast Avengers. By this time, Iron Man has gotten a little more powerful than in his previous appearances (as he has a tendency to do). Graviton doesn't take the assault lightly (http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=westcoastavengers4of411sr1.jpg), and even while distracted continues (http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=westcoastavengers4of412bv1.jpg), and proceeds to deal with Hawkeye as well here (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=westcoastavengers4of413ui4.jpg). Of course even then, at maximum intensity Iron Man only dents his shield (http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=westcoastavengers4of414rc1.jpg). Heck, he's even capable of taking a punch from Wonder Man (http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=westcoastavengers4of415sj3.jpg).

Naturally, Iron Man tries something desperate (http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=westcoastavengers4of416dl9.jpg) and blasts Graviton (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=westcoastavengers4of417sf1.jpg) but it is to no avail (http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=westcoastavengers4of418mq3.jpg). It is only the surprise gas arrow by Hawkeye that almost defeats Graviton, but he deals with that as well, only knocked out because of the continuing exertion of his powers (http://img251.imageshack.us/my.php?image=westcoastavengers4of420ja5.jpg). He hadn't had any upgrades by this time, which I'll tell you about in a second, since I'll post this scan as well, where Graviton downs the Avengers in the WCA's own ongoing title. (http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wca01222is6.jpg) The only reason he was defeated was again because of lack of control and/or too much exertion, something that's only ever really been brought on by a whole group of Avengers.

As I noted though, Graviton's powers increased, a lot. When he returned in the pages of the Thunderbolts, he pulled off some amazing things. He's literally held most of the superheroes in the world up in the air, levitated dozens of cities across the globe AND fought the Thunderbolts. He has unlimited power over gravity. He was capable of hurling a pebble from China to Australia, killing one single person. That's the magnitude and refinement of his powers. And something I can't get enough of: Even in his first appearance he held up an island, immobilized the Avengers and fought Thor simultaneously.

There are two things that dramatically influence this match even more. Both characters know each other in and out, and Graviton will be ignoring Iron Man's attacks on his person, or in a worst case scenario, he's going to get pissed and kill Iron Man then and there. The second thing that really pulls things in Graviton's favour is the location. It's Hell's Kitchen, populated. Graviton hasn't given a crap about civilian/innocent lives since as long as we've known him, Iron Man on the other hand? He's a hero. Graviton can draw Iron Man out by preying on the innocent, he can simply left up the entirety of Hell's Kitchen and throw into space, or he can just watch as Iron Man tries to save dozens of innocent lives while Graviton slowly dismantles his armour.

Power, knowledge, location.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2464/gravitonpa6.jpg
WINNER=GRAVITON (credits to ExodusCloak for scans)

Harlekin

06-20-2007, 11:44 AM

OPENING COMMENTS: Damion Hellstrom vs Tana Nile

I really like the irony of the Son of Satan and ruler of Hell to be fighting in Hell's Kitchen. Heck, Damion will probably get a chuckle out of it just as much. As for the battle though, the logical victor here is Hellstrom. Prep-time is a wash. Neither will know of the other, not even faintly, so they won't exactly be able to prepare. In a comparison of powers, Tana falls short. Her stasis gun can't stand up to Hellstrom's shields or blasts of (hell)fire, and it's doubtful her psionic control would be able to affect Hellstrom.

To borrow a page from the Marvel website:
Powers
Hellstorm possesses vast magical power, enhanced by the number and faith of his worshippers. He can fly or transport himself and other beings and objects (even buildings) across the planet and to other realms via travel through Hell; he can even travel through time. He can project true fire; hellfire, able to cause spiritual pain; and destructive energies able to devastate a house or slay even beings of great magical power. He can form and shatter mystic shields, tear thoughts from minds, and heal injuries and ailments in himself or others. Though he is only slightly stronger than human, his powers can amplify his strength to higher levels. He can alter his garments and appearance at will, taking on a more demonic appearance, in some cases including hooves, fangs, and

wings. His powers, formerly dependent on the Darksoul within him, are greatest within his own realm of Hell.

Abilities
Hellstorm is highly intelligent and an expert in the occult, specifically in demonology and theology. He can perform complex and powerful magical rites.

Let's recap here: Daimon is the ruthless Lord of Hell, Tana Nile is a Rigellian alien that (not as a dig to the character, but a statement) hasn't really done anything all too impressive. He can withstand her physical powers, her concussive blasts are useless, and he can counter, if not just plain defend himself against any psionic attacks from her. Considering he also shows no sympathy towards anyone but a select few people, he'll probably have no problem with it if Hell's Kitchen is largely destroyed after this encounter.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/3039/damienhellstromwg8.jpg
WINNER=DAMION HELLSTROM

Harlekin

06-20-2007, 11:45 AM

OPENING COMMENTS: Black Panther vs Sunfire (Exiles)

Ah, my dear Black Panther, never leave me. Now, I'm sad to say I like Sunfire quite a bit, so it's too bad she got matched up against the Panther here. As the sovereign king of Wakanda and a superhero member of the Avengers, he has numerous advantages over Sunfire here. Firstly, his suit will protect him from what Sunfire can throw at him in this populated area, while he'll be able to prepare for her on the simple basis of A) her name and B) having visited this reality before.

Black Panther's stealth capabilities and agility will make sure that not only he'll be able to avoid Sunfire, but he'll be able to take her by surprise. Together with a window of 24 hours in order to prepare, the Panther can fashion some impressive stuff. He could, for example, take along something like this (http://img78.exs.cx/img78/7483/ff16.jpg), a device he used in his first appearance to defeat the Human Torch. Since Sunfire's powers are dependant on sunlight, he could similarly block the sunlight from reaching her, or have her expend her powers on traps he can fashion in Hell's Kitchen when he arrives.

He can also go for a more traditional approach. The Panther is also an expert marksman, so through a mixture of herbs or gases, he could develop a quick tranquilizer to sedate her. After all, beyond the flame manipulating powers, she is only human. It's here that I would like to repeat the fact that no matter what, in this battle, the Panther has the advantage of surprise. His technology will allow him to track her, and she has no way in which to find him. He can avoid detection quite easily, and could even go so far as to simply change into civilian gear.

Perhaps if Sunfire were more ruthless and not a hero, she would able to offer an approiate defense against Panther's assault. Sadly, T'Challa is too intelligent, resourceful and to stealthy for her to properly deal with. He's got the skills to take her down, and he will make sure that she goes down painlessly.

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3025/blackpanthernt3.jpg
WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Phaedrus45

06-20-2007, 12:28 PM

Iron Man vs. Gravitron:

Gravitron has an impressive record; but, the one thing you notice in his bio is that he is most impressive when his opponents do not know how to handle his powers. This is not the case with Iron Man; and, it really sucks that Gravitron got handed this battle, from a genius who can take prep-time to his fullest advantage.

I want to point out a couple very important quotes:

(Speaking about the Thunderbolts) They were freed by the Thunderbolt Jolt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolt_%28comics%29), who borrowed technology derived from X-51 (aka Machine Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Man)) whose flight capabilities were powered by "cancelling out the gravity equation." Now unaffected by Hall's power, the Thunderbolts escaped and continued to battle, ultimately cancelling Hall's access to his power. When Hall regained his power, gravitational force rushed inward, collapsing inward on himself. He was shunted to another dimension once again.

And:

Graviton was last seen, apparently alive and well, escaping the Raft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Raft_%28comics%29) (a metahuman prison). he fought and bested the New Avengers, but was defeated and almost killed by Iron Man after Hall severely injured Spider-Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man).

I want to point out that you are only as good as your last appearance, and it seems to me that once a group or hero understands Gravitron's powers that it makes defeating much, much easier. Clearly, Iron Man has an understanding of Gravitron. Since Gravitron was difficult for this New Avengers team to defeat, until Iron Man came along, it shows he was still very powerful. But, looking at the New Avengers, that first appearance, many of them aren't suited to take out Gravitron. Iron Man is. Tony Stark will know of the same information that the Thunderbolts discovered from Machine Man...Tony Stark will have all of his past encounters as information in defeating Gravitron....and, most importantly, Tony Stark has 24 hours to come up with the means to defeat his opponent, an opponent he's met and defeated before.

Remember, Gravitron's powers are actually very simplistic:

Hall is able to manipulate gravitons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graviton) for various uses, including the projection of concussive blasts, formation of force fields and levitation, and has also proven capable of generating gravitational fields in various objects, making them attract any nearby matter (or individuals) not heavy enough or physically strong enough to resist.

When you know how to handle those powers, as Iron Man clearly would, his defeat is inevitable.

Winner = Iron Man

Phaedrus45

06-20-2007, 12:36 PM

Harlekin

06-20-2007, 01:22 PM

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man
Gravitron has an impressive record; but, the one thing you notice in his bio is that he is most impressive when his opponents do not know how to handle his powers. This is not the case with Iron Man; and, it really sucks that Gravitron got handed this battle, from a genius who can take prep-time to his fullest advantage.
Most impressive when his opponents do not know how to handle his powers? Is that why he schooled the Avengers on more than three occasions? Iron Man has a definite prep-time advantage, but it'll be of no effect in this match.

I want to point out that you are only as good as your last appearance, and it seems to me that once a group or hero understands Gravitron's powers that it makes defeating much, much easier. Clearly, Iron Man has an understanding of Gravitron. Since Gravitron was difficult for this New Avengers team to defeat, until Iron Man came along, it shows he was still very powerful. But, looking at the New Avengers, that first appearance, many of them aren't suited to take out Gravitron. Iron Man is. Tony Stark will know of the same information that the Thunderbolts discovered from Machine Man...Tony Stark will have all of his past encounters as information in defeating Gravitron....and, most importantly, Tony Stark has 24 hours to come up with the means to defeat his opponent, an opponent he's met and defeated before.
His last appearance was a weakened drugged up Graviton. That shouldn't count towards the character at all, but even then, he's got a 24 hour prep-time to get rid of the weakening effects. Iron Man didn't really do much more than blast at him, getting a lucky shot and knocking him out. And the NA really aren't an appropriate gauge for power, since they're all street level with the exception of Iron Man (and Sentry, who he didn't fight).

As for that information, I doubt it. The Avengers and the Thunderbolts were hesitant to trust one another, especially in the later phases. All Iron Man will know are his own past encounters, where he was himself beaten every time. Even if he could try something similar to what Machine Man did, to arrange and build it in 24 hours? Doubtful.

Remember, Gravitron's powers are actually very simplistic
They may be simplistic, but very powerful and very versatile. The man has unlimited control of gravity. If he wants to, he can shunt Hell's Kitchen, with Iron Man along with it, into space.

Gravitron has met defeat recently WHEN his opponents understand his powers and how to counter them. Clearly, Iron Man, especially with 24 hours prep-time, will know this.
Again, really doubtful the Thunderbolts willingly share this info with the Avengers. They were never on good terms with each other, and I don't recall an instance where they willingly traded information. Even then, Iron Man would have to pull it off, even though Graviton can still affect everything around him anyway.

Gravitron wasn't so weak when Iron Man defeated him last time, for the other New Avengers weren't able to handle his powers. Iron Man did, because he understood how to defeat Gravitron.
Please, the New Avengers are far from impressive. And Iron Man got lucky. If Graviton hadn't been weakened (lest we forget, he's taken blows unhindered from Thor and Wonder Man), Iron Man and the others would've been screwed.

Plus, while the location is populated and it would seem that Tony might be preoccupied saving those individuals, Tony knows the only way to save the most people is to take out Gravitron. If there are casualities, it would be a lot more if he doesn't keep his focus on the task at hand.
Yeah, I'm not buying this. He's not going to ignore innocent people dying. He's always been a hero, and he's always been concerned with civilian lives. Marvel's recent tinkering with Iron Man might suggest that he'd do this, but no, I'm not buying it, and I hope the voters won't either.

History sides with Iron Man.
I think you've got that backwards. History sides with Graviton, multiple times.

Gravitron, while very powerful, is a one-trick pony, in that his powers only deal with manipulating gravitrons. With the information available to Tony Stark, that knowledge is available, and he clearly comes out the victor. For Gravitron, this is a bad-luck-of-the-draw. There are a couple people who have the brains to tackle him, which are geniuses like Tony Stark and Mr. Fantastic. Prep-time also clearly benefits Tony, too.
- "Only" manipulating individuals? Are you kidding me? Terms like "just" and "only" don't really apply when it comes to Graviton's powers. He's got unlimited control of gravity.
- Again, I'm not sure that information will be available to him. He'll have his past encounters (which haven't worked in his favour), and Graviton's psych profile, which is useless, because Graviton will make sure to ignore him.

WINNER=GRAVITON

Phaedrus45

06-20-2007, 03:15 PM

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

Most impressive when his opponents do not know how to handle his powers? Is that why he schooled the Avengers on more than three occasions? Iron Man has a definite prep-time advantage, but it'll be of no effect in this match.

There are various people in this contest where prep-time is the biggest of advantages, including Tony Stark, Reed Richards, and Black Panther (as noted last round). 24 hours is more than enough time to come up with a very adequate battle plan. Plus, Gravitron "schooling" the Avengers is past history...Iron Man schooling Gravitron (without 24 hours prep-time) is recent history. And, Gravitron's weakness being discovered by the Thunderbolts is also recent history.

His last appearance was a weakened drugged up Graviton. That shouldn't count towards the character at all, but even then, he's got a 24 hour prep-time to get rid of the weakening effects. Iron Man didn't really do much more than blast at him, getting a lucky shot and knocking him out. And the NA really aren't an appropriate gauge for power, since they're all street level with the exception of Iron Man (and Sentry, who he didn't fight).

First, I'm going to have to look at this issue to see if the representations are correct. Second, this issue does count, especially showing how someone of Tony Stark's abilities and knowledge took out Gravitron quite easily, and those without experience failed. But, I understand the need to discount this issue, as it shows Tony quite easily handing Gravitron his butt.

As for that information, I doubt it. The Avengers and the Thunderbolts were hesitant to trust one another, especially in the later phases. All Iron Man will know are his own past encounters, where he was himself beaten every time. Even if he could try something similar to what Machine Man did, to arrange and build it in 24 hours? Doubtful.

But, it wasn't just the Thunderbolts fighting Gravitron. You had Archangel of the X-Men and the Great Lakes Avengers. This was a major battle, and the Avengers would definitely have record of it, especially since it involved one of the major baddies. And, Tony has been shown to come up with stuff easily within a 24 hour time frame...but, more than likely he has something that will effectively take out Gravitron already around, just in case he posed a threat again.

This brings about the fact that Tony has the advantage of being able to surprise Gravitron. He can have ways to blend into the environment and the people around. This doesn't have to automatically be a fight. Tony could have the device on his person to disable Gravitron's abilities without Gravitron realizing he's near.

They may be simplistic, but very powerful and very versatile. The man has unlimited control of gravity. If he wants to, he can shunt Hell's Kitchen, with Iron Man along with it, into space.

Ok, let's take this waaaaay out theory. Tony can survive in space. If you move all of Hell's Kitchen into space, the location is still there...in space. How is Gravitron now that he's either in space or not in the location any longer? DOH!

Again, really doubtful the Thunderbolts willingly share this info with the Avengers. They were never on good terms with each other, and I don't recall an instance where they willingly traded information. Even then, Iron Man would have to pull it off, even though Graviton can still affect everything around him anyway.

This was a major battle that involved more than just the Thunderbolts, as explained above. Yep, he'd have that information, and I think he'd clearly be able to use the prep-time to his advantage.

Please, the New Avengers are far from impressive. And Iron Man got lucky. If Graviton hadn't been weakened (lest we forget, he's taken blows unhindered from Thor and Wonder Man), Iron Man and the others would've been screwed.

But, once a team, like the Thunderbolts, discovers his weakness, he's quickly taken out. That would happen. Again, bad luck of the draw for Gravitron.

Yeah, I'm not buying this. He's not going to ignore innocent people dying. He's always been a hero, and he's always been concerned with civilian lives. Marvel's recent tinkering with Iron Man might suggest that he'd do this, but no, I'm not buying it, and I hope the voters won't either.

Tony Stark is not your average super-hero, for one thing. He weighs the pros with the cons, and it will be obvious what he needs to do, especially when he's had sufficient time to think things over. He's concerned with civilian lives, yes....but, he'll be more concerned with his own and, borrowing a saying from Star Trek II, the good of the many outweighing the needs of the few.

I think you've got that backwards. History sides with Graviton, multiple times.

Hmmmm...how does history show Gravitron coming out in the end? Plus, again, the two most recent appearances show that once you know how to combat Gravitron, he's taken out quite easily.

Winner = Iron Man

Harlekin

06-20-2007, 03:39 PM

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man
There are various people in this contest where prep-time is the biggest of advantages, including Tony Stark, Reed Richards, and Black Panther (as noted last round). 24 hours is more than enough time to come up with a very adequate battle plan. Plus, Gravitron "schooling" the Avengers is past history...Iron Man schooling Gravitron (without 24 hours prep-time) is recent history. And, Gravitron's weakness being discovered by the Thunderbolts is also recent history.
Iron Man certainly gains some advantage from knowing who Graviton is, but it's countered by the fact that Graviton also knows who Iron Man is, and lest we forget, Frank Hall is also a brilliant scientist.

First, I'm going to have to look at this issue to see if the representations are correct. Second, this issue does count, especially showing how someone of Tony Stark's abilities and knowledge took out Gravitron quite easily, and those without experience failed. But, I understand the need to discount this issue, as it shows Tony quite easily handing Gravitron his butt.
We know for a fact that Graviton was weakened. Early on in the issue there's references to the villains being drugged, and there's no other logical explanation for Graviton's weakening. Besides that, you're ignoring the fact that he also now has 24 hours to rid himself of the drugs (if we should even allow that as they were a temporary alteration to his character, not a permanent one). It's not just about the Iron Man thing, it's about unfair representation of my character.

But, it wasn't just the Thunderbolts fighting Gravitron. You had Archangel of the X-Men and the Great Lakes Avengers. This was a major battle, and the Avengers would definitely have record of it, especially since it involved one of the major baddies. And, Tony has been shown to come up with stuff easily within a 24 hour time frame...but, more than likely he has something that will effectively take out Gravitron already around, just in case he posed a threat again.
Who ultimately beat Graviton? The Thunderbolts. They knew how to do it, and they're not going to share that info with the Avengers. They'll have a record of it, and a note of the fact that Graviton was beaten by the T-Bolts, but nothing more. We also can't assume he has something to take down Graviton, because we never saw this, and he obviously didn't use it the last three/four times he got schooled.

This brings about the fact that Tony has the advantage of being able to surprise Gravitron. He can have ways to blend into the environment and the people around. This doesn't have to automatically be a fight. Tony could have the device on his person to disable Gravitron's abilities without Gravitron realizing he's near.
Graviton isn't going to waste time. He's going to take people hostage, kill people etc. etc. Buildings will be going up into space. Graviton hates the Avengers, and won't hesitate to destroy everything in his path to get to Iron Man. Unless Iron Man doesn't want the population of Hell's Kitchen to be violently murdered, he needs to act pretty fast.

Ok, let's take this waaaaay out theory. Tony can survive in space. If you move all of Hell's Kitchen into space, the location is still there...in space. How is Gravitron now that he's either in space or not in the location any longer? DOH!
I know you're going for the humour here, but it's missing the point. Besides the fact that Hell's Kitchen is a designation for a general area, and not necessarily the buildings and people, the fact remains that Graviton's powers are sufficiently great to just lift up Hell's Kitchen and flip it around.

Tony Stark is not your average super-hero, for one thing. He weighs the pros with the cons, and it will be obvious what he needs to do, especially when he's had sufficient time to think things over. He's concerned with civilian lives, yes....but, he'll be more concerned with his own and, borrowing a saying from Star Trek II, the good of the many outweighing the needs of the few.
- I never said he was an average superhero, but his morals are very alike.
- Again, Tony doesn't stand by as innocent people are killed. I'd actually like to see an example of Tony showing such behaviour. He can be Machevellian, but not in such a manner.
- How about: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Hmmmm...how does history show Gravitron coming out in the end? Plus, again, the two most recent appearances show that once you know how to combat Gravitron, he's taken out quite easily.
History shows Graviton coming out in the end because he's schooled everyone he's met since his first appearance. In the end, Graviton is always beaten though, because he's the villain. That's kinda his function in a comic. In a competition like this, his power and ruthlessness allow for victory.

WINNER=GRAVITON

Harlekin

06-20-2007, 04:03 PM

EXTRA COMMENTS TO REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

From the Marvel Comics page:
However, Graviton was later seen among those villains incarcerated in the Raft and was attempting an escape during the mass breakout engineered by Electro. He was confronted by heroes who would become the new Avengers, but he easily put them all on the ropes until the arrival of Iron Man. Iron Man got the drop on Graviton by flying in at an extreme speed and fired a new heat beam from his chestplate at the villain, nearly killing him if not for Captain America’s order to stand down. During this battle, Graviton exhibited a new scar on his shaved head, and he behaved erratically and irrationally, often babbling. Perhaps there is more to his recent appearance that has yet to be revealed.
So not only did Iron Man take him by surprise, an advantage he won't have on a prepared Graviton, Graviton also behaved very uncharacteristically. Therefore, I personally say we mostly ignore this issue, since it's not an accurate presentation of Graviton. Lest we forget, around the same time, we had villains that should've been dead breaking Spidey's arms and Carnage as a sort of vampire (similar to his Ultimate version) rather than a symbiote killer. This is just one instant of out-of-character and out-of-depth writing as opposed to a long history of well... ownage.

WINNER=GRAVITON

Phaedrus45

06-20-2007, 04:06 PM

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

Iron Man certainly gains some advantage from knowing who Graviton is, but it's countered by the fact that Graviton also knows who Iron Man is, and lest we forget, Frank Hall is also a brilliant scientist.

Yes, Frank Hall is a scientist, but I wouldn't say "brilliant." Remember, the only reason he has his powers is because he screwed up an experiment. Plus, Moonstone had to school him in how to make himself more powerful. There is nothing in the comics that shows Gravitron making stuff to further his powers or anything else for that matter. Also, being a labeled a scientist does not compare in any way to Tony's genius. Finally, Frank doesn't have the resources that Tony does in gaining information about his opponents.

We know for a fact that Graviton was weakened. Early on in the issue there's references to the villains being drugged, and there's no other logical explanation for Graviton's weakening. Besides that, you're ignoring the fact that he also now has 24 hours to rid himself of the drugs (if we should even allow that as they were a temporary alteration to his character, not a permanent one). It's not just about the Iron Man thing, it's about unfair representation of my character.

I'm not ignoring anything. It just wouldn't cause Toney concern. 24 hour prep-time, the knowledge that Gravitron does have a weakness to his powers that is knowledge to those in the know, and the fact that Iron Man took Gravitron down so easily when the other New Avengers had trouble points to one conclusion.

Who ultimately beat Graviton? The Thunderbolts. They knew how to do it, and they're not going to share that info with the Avengers. They'll have a record of it, and a note of the fact that Graviton was beaten by the T-Bolts, but nothing more. We also can't assume he has something to take down Graviton, because we never saw this, and he obviously didn't use it the last three/four times he got schooled.

The Thunderbolts are associated with the government. The Avengers are associated with the government. Even with this being before Civil War, Tony had government access. There is no doubt in my mind Tony knows this information. (Even the prison in which Gravitron was being held would realize what his weakness is and how he was defeated.)

Graviton isn't going to waste time. He's going to take people hostage, kill people etc. etc. Buildings will be going up into space. Graviton hates the Avengers, and won't hesitate to destroy everything in his path to get to Iron Man. Unless Iron Man doesn't want the population of Hell's Kitchen to be violently murdered, he needs to act pretty fast.

Tony isn't one to act unrationally. He's not going to risk everything by acting foolish. He'd have a plan, and he's dealt with Gravitron and knows what to expect.

- I never said he was an average superhero, but his morals are very alike.
- Again, Tony doesn't stand by as innocent people are killed. I'd actually like to see an example of Tony showing such behaviour. He can be Machevellian, but not in such a manner.
- How about: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Again, Tony is not foolish. He will realize what Gravitron will do, and he will know to not focus his attention on Gravitron is to suffer possible defeat. The fact remains that Tony will know what to do, and he won't have a problem doing that.

History shows Graviton coming out in the end because he's schooled everyone he's met since his first appearance. In the end, Graviton is always beaten though, because he's the villain. That's kinda his function in a comic. In a competition like this, his power and ruthlessness allow for victory.

The last two defeats, as I've said, show what has happened to this character in today's comic world. Those who have battled him and knows his weaknesses can easily defeat him. Those qualities are what makes up Tony Stark.

Again, if there was a character that Gravitron could face that would really screw up his plans for future success in this contest, maybe Magneto would be #1...#2 is clearly Iron Man.

Winner = Iron Man

Phaedrus45

06-20-2007, 04:07 PM

(BTW, our other two battles in this thread will be done. I have my battle plan, but I really need to research the past appearances by Hellstrom and Wanda. There powers are such that I need to look at what they've done in the past to see how things truly work.)

JewishHobbit

06-20-2007, 08:59 PM

http://www.ditmoetjezien.nl/images/155x0/f7e7j1q71tw99d895427r473.jpg

And you know what the worst part is? I NEVER LEARNED TO READ! :mad::(

WAYNE'S WORLD!! YES! Belly Roles All Around

Harlekin

06-21-2007, 03:28 AM

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man
Yes, Frank Hall is a scientist, but I wouldn't say "brilliant." Remember, the only reason he has his powers is because he screwed up an experiment. Plus, Moonstone had to school him in how to make himself more powerful. There is nothing in the comics that shows Gravitron making stuff to further his powers or anything else for that matter. Also, being a labeled a scientist does not compare in any way to Tony's genius. Finally, Frank doesn't have the resources that Tony does in gaining information about his opponents.
Not brilliant? Even though pretty much every source refers to him as being one? Yes, Moonstone had to help him define some of the finer aspects of his powers, but that was because Graviton was looking at the big picture too much. Lack of imagination and all that.

And really, most brilliant scientists get their powers from failed experiments (Sasquatch for one). Heck, he was still able to built a beacon that transcended dimensions (which is what brought him back into the Earth dimension).

I'm not ignoring anything. It just wouldn't cause Toney concern. 24 hour prep-time, the knowledge that Gravitron does have a weakness to his powers that is knowledge to those in the know, and the fact that Iron Man took Gravitron down so easily when the other New Avengers had trouble points to one conclusion.
Of course Tony knows of a few of Graviton's weakness. Overexertion and his fragile psyche. Also, as I point out, the Graviton depicted during his battle with the NA was nothing like his previous appearances and in a rare moment for him, was taken by surprise.

The Thunderbolts are associated with the government. The Avengers are associated with the government. Even with this being before Civil War, Tony had government access. There is no doubt in my mind Tony knows this information. (Even the prison in which Gravitron was being held would realize what his weakness is and how he was defeated.)
- The Thunderbolts were not associated with the government at that time. They started out that way, but by the time they first fought Graviton, they were fugitives, remember?
- It's doubtful they would've shared this info with anyone else, especially the government.
- The Avengers and Fantastic Four were out of town.
- The T-Bolts didn't even take him down that easily, seeing as he still held them off and resisted punches from them. Besides, do you really think Graviton is going to get punked by that trick again? He'll make sure to keep everything out of his way. He knows Iron Man is dangerous, and if he even came up with the idea, much like with the T-Bolts, the anti-gravity stuff will run out of power.

Tony isn't one to act unrationally. He's not going to risk everything by acting foolish. He'd have a plan, and he's dealt with Gravitron and knows what to expect. [...] Again, Tony is not foolish. He will realize what Gravitron will do, and he will know to not focus his attention on Gravitron is to suffer possible defeat. The fact remains that Tony will know what to do, and he won't have a problem doing that.
I never said he wouldn't have a plan. All I'm saying is that Iron Man isn't going to watch people die. Now I'm going to leave this point up to the voters to decide if Tony is such a hero or not. I personally believe he isn't, and you haven't shown anything to the contrary. And again, if Tony somehow magically gets this information, Graviton is smart enough to prepare for it.

The last two defeats, as I've said, show what has happened to this character in today's comic world. Those who have battled him and knows his weaknesses can easily defeat him. Those qualities are what makes up Tony Stark.
Never easily. His first battle with the T-Bolts was still hard fought, even after they had found out how to beat him. This is was still while he was "unexperienced". After that, he started doing stuff like shifting the tectonic plates of the moon. And a feat I'm particularly fond off: While on the moon, shooting a pebble from China into a woman's head in Australia. He violently murders the Redeemers, and keeps up the game by lifting up more than 20 cities into the air with nary a sweat. To make matters worse, he has every mainstream hero on the planet hanging upside down in the air, helpless. The only reason he's beaten is because Moonstone psychs him out, the woman he had come to fall in love with. And for the record, Moonstones states that if Graviton hadn't wanted it, he could've killed the Thunderbolts then and there, even with the gravity disrupters.

Again, Graviton is never beaten easily.

Again, if there was a character that Gravitron could face that would really screw up his plans for future success in this contest, maybe Magneto would be #1...#2 is clearly Iron Man.
If that were true, Iron Man wouldn't haven't gotten his ass beat all those times before.

I repeat: Power, knowledge, location.

WINNER=GRAVITON

Phaedrus45

06-21-2007, 11:42 PM

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

Not brilliant? Even though pretty much every source refers to him as being one? Yes, Moonstone had to help him define some of the finer aspects of his powers, but that was because Graviton was looking at the big picture too much. Lack of imagination and all that.

And really, most brilliant scientists get their powers from failed experiments (Sasquatch for one). Heck, he was still able to built a beacon that transcended dimensions (which is what brought him back into the Earth dimension).

I discovered some interesting information in my research. It would appear that Graviton has "evidently sustained a head injury," as stated in the most new Official Handbook, and this head injury is concurrent with his appearance in New Avengers. Plus, I just finished reading through New Avengers, and the only mention of drugs is in regards to Purple Man. None of the escape prisoners seemed to be effected by any drugs at all, and even Purple Man seemed uneffected by any drugs. The idea that Graviton is drugged is purely speculation; and, from what I read, false speculation.

What defeated Graviton wasn't "a lucky shot," but Tony Stark's Extremis enhanced Iron Man. Tony Stark had a means of defeating Graviton, and especially with his prep-time, he'll be further prepared. Also, this head injury makes Graviton "more megalomaniacal than ever during this ... escape, declaring himself capable of forgiving and punishing sins." Obviously, Graviton isn't in his right mind, and this greatly hinders his scientific and deductive abilities. Dude's loco, even more than before.

Of course Tony knows of a few of Graviton's weakness. Overexertion and his fragile psyche. Also, as I point out, the Graviton depicted during his battle with the NA was nothing like his previous appearances and in a rare moment for him, was taken by surprise.

As pointed out, it even goes beyond Graviton's normal weaknesses. Tony knew how to defeat Graviton by using his Extremis armor. He'll know how to defeat him again. Plus, he knows of Graviton's emotional weaknesses and will know how to use them to his advantage if needed. (Heck, he might even have some special hologram or something of the woman who tends to drive him crazy.)

The thing is I'm going to end up going in circles with this debate now. I think this final quote says it all.

I repeat: Power, knowledge, location.

Tony has more power at his disposal, a hell of a lot more knowledge (especially considering Mr. Brain Damage isn't working with a full deck), and he will know the location a whole lot better than Gravy.

Winner = Iron Man

Harlekin

06-22-2007, 02:45 AM

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man
I discovered some interesting information in my research. It would appear that Graviton has "evidently sustained a head injury," as stated in the most new Official Handbook, and this head injury is concurrent with his appearance in New Avengers. Plus, I just finished reading through New Avengers, and the only mention of drugs is in regards to Purple Man. None of the escape prisoners seemed to be effected by any drugs at all, and even Purple Man seemed uneffected by any drugs. The idea that Graviton is drugged is purely speculation; and, from what I read, false speculation.
Purple Man was unaffected by drugs? Did you even read New Avengers? It's how Luke Cage was able to beat his unholy ass. And most of the escaped prisoners were street level, and with the exception of Count Nefaria, none used their powers. It's perfectly reasonable that they drugged him to keep docile, because there was no other mention of power inhibiting.

What defeated Graviton wasn't "a lucky shot," but Tony Stark's Extremis enhanced Iron Man. Tony Stark had a means of defeating Graviton, and especially with his prep-time, he'll be further prepared. Also, this head injury makes Graviton "more megalomaniacal than ever during this ... escape, declaring himself capable of forgiving and punishing sins." Obviously, Graviton isn't in his right mind, and this greatly hinders his scientific and deductive abilities. Dude's loco, even more than before.
It was a lucky shot in the sense that Iron Man took him by surprise, something that had never happened to Graviton before, at least, not without him being prepared to deal with it. Logically, I also object against the use of this crazier Graviton, since his past history shows an A) saner version, B) steadily more powerful version and C) none of this forgiving and punishing bull****.

As pointed out, it even goes beyond Graviton's normal weaknesses. Tony knew how to defeat Graviton by using his Extremis armor. He'll know how to defeat him again. Plus, he knows of Graviton's emotional weaknesses and will know how to use them to his advantage if needed. (Heck, he might even have some special hologram or something of the woman who tends to drive him crazy.)
Considering Graviton is completely in tune with the gravitational forces, and has unlimited control over them, I doubt he'll be fooled by a hologram. He's also, of course, not an idiot. There's really no opportunity for Iron Man to prey on Graviton's psyche.

Tony has more power at his disposal, a hell of a lot more knowledge (especially considering Mr. Brain Damage isn't working with a full deck), and he will know the location a whole lot better than Gravy.
More power? Come back to me when Iron Man's lifted 20 cities up in the air and fought the Thunderbolts while doing so. Sorry, but in a test of pure power, Iron Man can't win. Lastly, Graviton keeps the location advantage (especially if he's crazy as you suggest), since he'll be murdering people left and right. Heck, odds are, knowing his defeat against Iron Man, he'll just go bat ****in' insane and throw the entirety of Hell's Kitchen into space or have it collapse on itself.

Now, I actually found some scans of the fight itself that you mention:
Page 1 (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=88381267sa2.jpg), page 2 (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=27519428ih2.jpg), page 3 (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=26150188gm1.jpg), page 4 (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=60856723np7.jpg). As you can see, not only does Graviton resist Iron Man's initial attack, "near-death" isn't accurate either, as he doesn't even seem to be knocked out on the final page. Heck, even resists Iron Man's repulsor blasts in his face. With a Graviton that knows of this defeat, there's no way Iron Man gets to pull that off again.

Iron Man is going down.

WINNER=GRAVITON

Phaedrus45

06-22-2007, 08:54 AM

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

Purple Man was unaffected by drugs? Did you even read New Avengers? It's how Luke Cage was able to beat his unholy ass. And most of the escaped prisoners were street level, and with the exception of Count Nefaria, none used their powers. It's perfectly reasonable that they drugged him to keep docile, because there was no other mention of power inhibiting.

Actually, I did read the book, especially focusing on the escape attempt. Remember, Purple Man did take over Luke Cage in that book for a while, and he was the only character who was refered to as being drugged. I looked through those issues, and the villians did not act drugged at all.

It was a lucky shot in the sense that Iron Man took him by surprise, something that had never happened to Graviton before, at least, not without him being prepared to deal with it. Logically, I also object against the use of this crazier Graviton, since his past history shows an A) saner version, B) steadily more powerful version and C) none of this forgiving and punishing bull****.

How is it that Graviton has faced more and better Avengers in the past, yet in this instance is taken down quite easily by Tony? Simple, and it's not drugs. It's the Extremis armor. Tony has a way of battling Graviton, and that makes sense. As you point out, they've fought numerous times, and a man of Tony's genius would have come up with a way to defeat him by now. He has, he did, and so did the Thunderbolts.

Considering Graviton is completely in tune with the gravitational forces, and has unlimited control over them, I doubt he'll be fooled by a hologram. He's also, of course, not an idiot. There's really no opportunity for Iron Man to prey on Graviton's psyche.

The truth is Tony won't even need to do this. He knows how to defeat Graviton. But, I point out that it's been shown, especially with his recent brain damage, that to try and hypothosis how Graviton would act in this situation isn't in the way a rational hero or villian would. Dude's got a screw loose.

More power? Come back to me when Iron Man's lifted 20 cities up in the air and fought the Thunderbolts while doing so. Sorry, but in a test of pure power, Iron Man can't win. Lastly, Graviton keeps the location advantage (especially if he's crazy as you suggest), since he'll be murdering people left and right. Heck, odds are, knowing his defeat against Iron Man, he'll just go bat ****in' insane and throw the entirety of Hell's Kitchen into space or have it collapse on itself.

Going up against Graviton has never been about a test of power, and this isn't the case with this match. This is genius vs. megalomaniacal scientist with a screw loose. If this was just a happenstance fight without prep-time, I'd almost admit that Graviton would have the upper hand. But, recent history has shown that Tony has the means and the know-how to come prepared.

Now, I actually found some scans of the fight itself that you mention:
Page 1 (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=88381267sa2.jpg), page 2 (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=27519428ih2.jpg), page 3 (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=26150188gm1.jpg), page 4 (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=60856723np7.jpg). As you can see, not only does Graviton resist Iron Man's initial attack, "near-death" isn't accurate either, as he doesn't even seem to be knocked out on the final page. Heck, even resists Iron Man's repulsor blasts in his face. With a Graviton that knows of this defeat, there's no way Iron Man gets to pull that off again.

What I see is an Iron Man with the right type of armor without even prep-time taking down Graviton. These were heroes not fully prepared for who they are fighting. Now, image what happens with 24 hours to prepare. The Gravi-train in getting knocked off its tracks!

Winner = Iron Man

(At this point, I'm positive I'll still be stating the same things over and over. Unless a new point gets brought up, I'm good at letting this debate end so I can focus on the other six.)

Harlekin

06-22-2007, 09:09 AM

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

I'm willing to close the debate as well, although I might put up a summary later, to finalize it. I'm responding to a selection of your debate, since I'd just be repeating myself otherwise.

Actually, I did read the book, especially focusing on the escape attempt. Remember, Purple Man did take over Luke Cage in that book for a while, and he was the only character who was refered to as being drugged. I looked through those issues, and the villians did not act drugged at all.
Then I suggest you read it again. Luke Cage faked being taken over and then pretty much immediately went all out on Purple Man's ass. Purple didn't even have Cage for a second.

How is it that Graviton has faced more and better Avengers in the past, yet in this instance is taken down quite easily by Tony? Simple, and it's not drugs. It's the Extremis armor. Tony has a way of battling Graviton, and that makes sense. As you point out, they've fought numerous times, and a man of Tony's genius would have come up with a way to defeat him by now. He has, he did, and so did the Thunderbolts.
I'd hardly chalk up to Extremis. Seeing as Tony's been able to Mach-3, since what, his first appearance? That's really what took Graviton out. The surprise hit on his head. Tony got off a lucky shot, that's really all there is to it. Graviton beats on the Avengers, Tony gets a distress call and then barges in, knocking Graviton on his ass with a lucky pound.

Tony's win record also speaks against him here, since he's always lost to Graviton before the recent Iron Man #8. The Thunderbolts were also only able to beat Graviton with tech once, and had to rely on Moonstone (with whom Graviton had fallen in love with) to win that battle.

WINNER=GRAVITON

Phaedrus45

06-22-2007, 10:53 AM

Scarlet Witch vs. Frankie Raye:

Interesting match-up, mainly for the fact that Scarlet Witch is one confusing character. I've tried to think of examples where she's been on one-on-one confrontations, and she's always with someone or some team. I know there was one miniseries; and if I have a chance to dig it out, I might get a look at it. But, the cool thing is that her actual powers are well described in the Official Handbook for Avengers 2004, before Bendis came along and screwed everything up. I'll reprint that information below:

Superhuman Powers: The Scarlet Witch is able to create "hex-spheres," finite pockets of reality-disrupting, quasi-psionic force that can cause molecular disturbances in a target's probability field, resulting in the occurence of unlikely events; examples include spontaneous combustion, rapid decay, deflection of objects in flight, and the disruption of energy transmissions. Her power has a special affinity for natural elements.

The Scarlet Witch is able to enhance her mutant power via the use of sorcery to manipulate chaos magic, but the full extent of her sorcerous skill is as yet unclear inasmuch as she has demonstrated widely varying power levels; it may be that her probability-altering power affects her sorcery and vice versa, occasionally making her far more powerful than she ordinarily would be.

Special Skills: Captain America has trained the Scarlet Witch in basic hand-to-hand combat.

Special Limitations: The Scarlet Witch's hex-casting ability has a 20% unreliability factor and is limited by her range of sight, although she has been able to overcome the latter limitationon occasion via extreme concentration and sorcerous enhancement. Her power's reliablity depends in part upon her physical condition.

Additionally, the reader notices she's not particularily fast, strong, or durable.

The main thing I want to stress is for the voter to remember Scarlet Witch appearances from the past. That 20& unreliability factor is actually a pretty big percentage, and I can remember numerous times where she doesn't get off what she needs to, especially under stressful circumstances.

Oh, I guess I should point out my character's abilities, too:

Powers Nova could manipulate cosmic energy in the form of stellar fire, surrounding herself in a flaming aura. Her portion of the power cosmic allowed her to manipulate all forms of energy, fly at warp speed, and survive in outer space.

Also to note:

Strength Level: Nova can lift about 40 tons.

In addition:

*"Nova possesses the ability to manipulate cosmic energy in the form of stellar fire...These energies make her the humanoid equivalent of a miniature sun. Projecting from any point on her body by mental command, Nova's energies encompass the entire electromagnetic spectrum possessed by a star: heat, light, gravity, radio waves, and charged particles. The maximum amount of heat she can produce appears to be 900,000 degrees Fahrenheit....With a minor manifestation of her stellar powers, she can burn through any Earthly substance (with the exception of Adamantium.)....Nova can control the path of her cosmic fire to such an extent that she can project a sustained ring of flame at a fixed distance around any object."

*"As a consequence of her cosmic form and metabolism, Nova is far stronger and more durable than an ordinary human being. Although she still possesses a physical body, she is virtually impervious to most forms of physical harm. Her body automatically incinerates any projectile that comes within her fiery corona."

Scarlet Witch is a cool character, but she's not one who is useful against a cosmic character, like Frankie Raye. Since Frankie is from Earth, she'll have known about Scarlet Witch. The same can't be said for Wanda, though. This is someone the Fantastic Four dealt with, not the Avengers. (Of course, Frankie Raye will only have personal memory of past events to work with; so, that isn't a whole lot, either.)

What makes this match beneficial for Frankie is her speed. Scarlet Witch needs to be able to see what she's using her powers on, as explained above. Frankie can go so fast as to easily knock Scarlet Witch unconscious. Plus, looking at Frankie's power levels, Scarlet Witch might be able to disrupt it a bit; but, Frankie will quickly learn a fast approach on someone who needs a bit of concentration will be what she needs.

Winner = Frankie Raye

Ahura Mazda

06-22-2007, 11:43 AM

Scarlet Witch vs. Frankie Raye: - Rebuttal

Interesting match-up, mainly for the fact that Scarlet Witch is one confusing character. I've tried to think of examples where she's been on one-on-one confrontations, and she's always with someone or some team. I know there was one miniseries; and if I have a chance to dig it out, I might get a look at it. But, the cool thing is that her actual powers are well described in the Official Handbook for Avengers 2004, before Bendis came along and screwed everything up. I'll reprint that information below:

Additionally, the reader notices she's not particularily fast, strong, or durable.

The main thing I want to stress is for the voter to remember Scarlet Witch appearances from the past. That 20& unreliability factor is actually a pretty big percentage, and I can remember numerous times where she doesn't get off what she needs to, especially under stressful circumstances.

I would like to point out that this versuion of the characater includes everything up to Bendis' upgrades which included the ability to manipulate organic matter, and she was doing chaos magic.

Scarlet Witch is a cool character, but she's not one who is useful against a cosmic character, like Frankie Raye. Since Frankie is from Earth, she'll have known about Scarlet Witch. The same can't be said for Wanda, though. This is someone the Fantastic Four dealt with, not the Avengers. (Of course, Frankie Raye will only have personal memory of past events to work with; so, that isn't a whole lot, either.)

Why would frankie know about the Scarlet Witch. As you say, she dealt with the FF4 plus at the time of her transformation the Scarlet Witch was not even part of the Avengers. However, you seem to omit that the Scarlet Witch has access to the Avengers' database which is very complete and has information on all the villains and all the heroes.

What makes this match beneficial for Frankie is her speed. Scarlet Witch needs to be able to see what she's using her powers on, as explained above. Frankie can go so fast as to easily knock Scarlet Witch unconscious. Plus, looking at Frankie's power levels, Scarlet Witch might be able to disrupt it a bit; but, Frankie will quickly learn a fast approach on someone who needs a bit of concentration will be what she needs.

One thing neither of us has mentionned is that this is a populated area. Nova is a hero type just as the Scarlet Witch is so either will try and avoid collateral damage. However, who is likely to cause more with the use of her powers. Nova is someone who shoots blasts and that is her main weapon. How will she do that in a populated area. The Scarlet Witch's powers however willl be very specific and will only affect Nova so can be used to a fuller extent.

Also the Scarlet Witch has faced people with even greater speed like count Nefaria or Ultron with no worse the wear. Nova has absolutely no defense against anything the Scarlet Witch can do to her. Absolutely none. Magic has always been a weakness for all the ex-heralds and here is a prime example against one of the weaker ones. PLus the fact it is a populated area is an enormous advantage for someone whose powers do not cause collateral damage against someone whose own abilities affect genrally big areas.

Winner = SCARLET WITCH

Phaedrus45

06-22-2007, 12:34 PM

Scarlet Witch vs. Frankie Raye: - Rebuttal

I would like to point out that this versuion of the characater includes everything up to Bendis' upgrades which included the ability to manipulate organic matter, and she was doing chaos magic.

I would like to point out that the information I provided is right before Bendis' upgrades, is directly from the Official Handbook, and as such probably gives the best source of information on this very confusing character, whose been transformed numerous times throughout her history.

Why would frankie know about the Scarlet Witch. As you say, she dealt with the FF4 plus at the time of her transformation the Scarlet Witch was not even part of the Avengers. However, you seem to omit that the Scarlet Witch has access to the Avengers' database which is very complete and has information on all the villains and all the heroes.

Scarlet Witch's association with the Avengers was very public and very well known. The fact remains that she was a prolific member due to her gossip-page style stories: She's a mutant joining the Avengers; she's a past villian, along with her brother, joining the Avengers; and, she's a human mating with an Android, The Vision. I would dare say that almost anyone in the U.S. knows about Scarlet Witch, just as we all know about Paris Hilton. Plus, I noted that Frankie Raye still wouldn't know a great deal; but, she would know about her.

As for Avenger's files, the Avengers never dealt with Frankie Raye, only the Fantastic Four (on Earth). Frankie Raye was just a girlfriend to Johnny Storm, if memory suits me correctly, and as such the Avengers never interacted on a cosmic scale with her time as a herald to Galactus.

One thing neither of us has mentionned is that this is a populated area. Nova is a hero type just as the Scarlet Witch is so either will try and avoid collateral damage. However, who is likely to cause more with the use of her powers. Nova is someone who shoots blasts and that is her main weapon. How will she do that in a populated area. The Scarlet Witch's powers however willl be very specific and will only affect Nova so can be used to a fuller extent.

First, Nova has been transformed into a Herald of Galactus, and usually that transformation is more than just physical. Second, Scarlet Witch should (in my opinion) be more worried. As noted, many times her hex-powers don't work as expected, and if she causes a stray shot to miss-fire, it's her powers that endangers other's lives. It's definite that Scarlet Witch would be more effected by the population than a transformed Herald of Galactus.

Also the Scarlet Witch has faced people with even greater speed like count Nefaria or Ultron with no worse the wear. Nova has absolutely no defense against anything the Scarlet Witch can do to her. Absolutely none. Magic has always been a weakness for all the ex-heralds and here is a prime example against one of the weaker ones. PLus the fact it is a populated area is an enormous advantage for someone whose powers do not cause collateral damage against someone whose own abilities affect genrally big areas.

Actually, Scarlet Witch has faced people of great speed (and, I wouldn't say greater) with the help of the Avengers at her side. Also, Scarlet Witch is not a magician in the normal Marvel sense. She's no Clea or Dr. Strange, I'd like to point out. Her powers are about probability. She's out of her league, she doesn't have a team to distract her opponent while she can do her "chaos magic," and her ability to concentrate will be greatly hampered.

Winner = Frankie Raye

Ahura Mazda

06-23-2007, 05:48 AM

I would like to point out that the information I provided is right before Bendis' upgrades, is directly from the Official Handbook, and as such probably gives the best source of information on this very confusing character, whose been transformed numerous times throughout her history.

This still includes her affecting organic matter which she did by bringing Wonder Man back to life during Busiek's run. The comics in continuity override what you have in the handbook.

Scarlet Witch's association with the Avengers was very public and very well known. The fact remains that she was a prolific member due to her gossip-page style stories: She's a mutant joining the Avengers; she's a past villian, along with her brother, joining the Avengers; and, she's a human mating with an Android, The Vision. I would dare say that almost anyone in the U.S. knows about Scarlet Witch, just as we all know about Paris Hilton. Plus, I noted that Frankie Raye still wouldn't know a great deal; but, she would know about her.

I do not agree as the dealings of the Avengers was never very public. The Scarlet Witch did not have a press agent or a reality show so that the public would know her. Even her dealings as a villain, which was known in the mutant community were not something known by the public at large. You are assuming much and the other thing the public has no knowledge of is her powers which at best would know it is magic related.

As for Avenger's files, the Avengers never dealt with Frankie Raye, only the Fantastic Four (on Earth). Frankie Raye was just a girlfriend to Johnny Storm, if memory suits me correctly, and as such the Avengers never interacted on a cosmic scale with her time as a herald to Galactus.

The Avengers' have a very complete database and have extended files on all the heralds. They are the prime team of the US and as such have access to everything. Just because they did not personally deal with her does not mean they did not have files on her.

First, Nova has been transformed into a Herald of Galactus, and usually that transformation is more than just physical. Second, Scarlet Witch should (in my opinion) be more worried. As noted, many times her hex-powers don't work as expected, and if she causes a stray shot to miss-fire, it's her powers that endangers other's lives. It's definite that Scarlet Witch would be more effected by the population than a transformed Herald of Galactus.

First of all, in your handbook it states there is a 20% chance they do not work meaning that 4 out of 5 times they do. Therefore stating that it is many times they do not work is very misleading because they almost always work and once in a while they do not. It would be like never betting on a pair of aces because once in a while you could lose whereas almost always you win. The Scarlet Witch knows how good her powers are and as such will not be worried on the off chance they could backfire. One out of five is a very low probability.

And lets not forget that this is Nova, the ex-Herald who recoverred her humanity when the Silver Surfer taught her a lesson. In other words, she is not as powerful as when she was a herald and she now feels the difference between right and wrong.

Actually, Scarlet Witch has faced people of great speed (and, I wouldn't say greater) with the help of the Avengers at her side. Also, Scarlet Witch is not a magician in the normal Marvel sense. She's no Clea or Dr. Strange, I'd like to point out. Her powers are about probability. She's out of her league, she doesn't have a team to distract her opponent while she can do her "chaos magic," and her ability to concentrate will be greatly hampered.

The thing is her magic is something that has no defense and given she has preparation she can affect a spell which can waylay Nova.

The thing to note is that there is (based on a handbook that is not always accurate - I base this on the section on the Hulk which has quite a few errors) a 1 out of 5 chance this could not work. this contest is supposed to be based on what would happen the majority of times and not once out of several times. The reality or the magic of it is that FOUR OUT OF FIVE times Nova will be taken down.

Winner = THE SCARLET WITCH

Phaedrus45

06-24-2007, 02:34 PM

Rebuttal of sorts in regards to Graviton vs. Iron Man:

I do stand corrected. I had looked at the end of New Avengers #2, where it shows Purple Man taking control of Luke Cage. Of course, in issue #3, they show this was a trick, and Purple Man couldn't use his powers at all.

BUT, this does prove a point I was making. As pointed out, the only character refered to as being drugged is Purple Man in New Avengers #1. It was my statement that none of the other characters were drugged. In Iron Man #8, we see the battle, and Harlekin even gives us a few of the pictures (but, not the best ones, where Graviton is handing the entire New Avengers their butts and using his powers to their fullest extent). I point this out because if Graviton was being drugged, he should have the same problem as Purple Man, which is no ability to use his powers. This isn't the case; thus, it must be assumed that he isn't drugged and weakened upon escape.

Winner = Iron Man

(That should end my debate. I just had to pull up New Avengers #2 again, then issue #3.)

Phaedrus45

06-24-2007, 02:49 PM

This still includes her affecting organic matter which she did by bringing Wonder Man back to life during Busiek's run. The comics in continuity override what you have in the handbook.

This handbook includes what you mention. As it says, "the Scarlet Witch, in attempting to summon other Avengers, inadvertently caused Wonder Man to partially cross over from the world of the dead; she was able to fully restore him to life not long afterward." Remember, much of Scarlet Witch's powers are random happenstance. As the bio points out, the was "inadvertent" in the first place. Plus, Wonder Man is a being of ionic energy, too. What powers she has over organic matter is already described in the bio I provided, which really is pretty accurate for the Scarlet Witch all of us would be facing.

I do not agree as the dealings of the Avengers was never very public. The Scarlet Witch did not have a press agent or a reality show so that the public would know her. Even her dealings as a villain, which was known in the mutant community were not something known by the public at large. You are assuming much and the other thing the public has no knowledge of is her powers which at best would know it is magic related.

When Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver joined, it created an uproar among civilians and U.S. government alike. Again, it's a strange thing to be arguing that Frankie Raye would be somewhat familiar with her, especially since I've pointed out twice that it would be just what she remembered from news and such.

The Avengers' have a very complete database and have extended files on all the heralds. They are the prime team of the US and as such have access to everything. Just because they did not personally deal with her does not mean they did not have files on her.

I would ask when any member of the Avengers ever came into contact with Frankie Raye. She was a Herald for a short time, after all. Silver Surfer and some other Heralds I would agree with. Nova was almost a blip on the Marvel 616 radar screen.

First of all, in your handbook it states there is a 20% chance they do not work meaning that 4 out of 5 times they do. Therefore stating that it is many times they do not work is very misleading because they almost always work and once in a while they do not. It would be like never betting on a pair of aces because once in a while you could lose whereas almost always you win. The Scarlet Witch knows how good her powers are and as such will not be worried on the off chance they could backfire. One out of five is a very low probability.

20% is terrible odds, in my opinion. In fact, it seems like Scarlet Witch will be trying to evade more than attack Nova's assault. That means, if Nova shoots cosmic bolts at her 5 times, one could very well hit her and knock her unconscious. Sounds like pretty good odds to me.

And lets not forget that this is Nova, the ex-Herald who recoverred her humanity when the Silver Surfer taught her a lesson. In other words, she is not as powerful as when she was a herald and she now feels the difference between right and wrong.

But, not as much as Scarlet Witch. If this is a question of who will be more effected by those nearby, I give the very human Scarlet Witch that problem.

The thing is her magic is something that has no defense and given she has preparation she can affect a spell which can waylay Nova.

To point out, this is "Chaos Magic." It's very different than the other magic users. Scarlet Witch needs preparation and the ability to do "chaos magic." She's not going to rattle off spells, like Dr. Strange. All the voters have to do is really remember the type of character Scarlet Witch was in Avengers. (My memory remembers her being captured a lot.)

The thing to note is that there is (based on a handbook that is not always accurate - I base this on the section on the Hulk which has quite a few errors) a 1 out of 5 chance this could not work. this contest is supposed to be based on what would happen the majority of times and not once out of several times. The reality or the magic of it is that FOUR OUT OF FIVE times Nova will be taken down.

This is not 1 out of 5 times that Scarlet Witch will fail in a contest between these two. This means there is a 20% chance in this battle that one of Scarlet Witch's chaos magic spells won't work as she desires. This is not going to be a "one hit and Scarlet Witch wins" type of match. Let's not confuse the voters by taking the probability out of context.

Winner = Frankie Raye

kytrigger

06-24-2007, 05:31 PM

Sunfire - Exiles (KYTRIGGER) bio (http://www.mutanthigh.com/alternatex/exiles/sunfire.html)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_sunfire.jpg (http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/?action=view&current=sunfire.jpg&refPage=60&imgAnch=imgAnch62)

vs.

Black Panther (HARLEKIN) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Black-Panther.jpg
Okay, so this looks like sort of a mismatch, but Sunfire can definately win this battle.

Powers:
Everyone knows Black panther

This Sunfire has the same powers as the 616 Sunfire basically. She can fly, shoot heat rays and heat up to somewhere near 1,000,000 degrees or something ridiculous like that.

Prep Time will go to Panther, but it is difficult to say how much he can really use. I'm not sure he knows this Sunfire, but he does know the other one. This will allow him to prepare, but he might be expecting some differences since this is really a different person which makes it hard to judge what he will really prepare.

as for the fight, Sunfire's main weapon is her heat. Now, most are saying that Black Panther has a suit with a vibranium weave and everything. yes. He does, and that suit would definately help him from the concusson of hte blasts, but not necessarily the heat of the blast.

Her is a pic of Cap's shield blocking the heat of a reactor, but Cap stating that the heat is still going to kill him:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l52/rbouras/capheat.jpg

What this shows is that the vibranium can definately block some of the heat, but not all of it, and I bet Sunfire can get a hell of a lot hotter than a freaking reactor.

Panther's vibranium suit is good, but it isn't perfect. if it can still be cut with a knife (which it can) then other things can get through it as well, including heat.

Sunfire would just have to rais ethe temp up high enough until he eventually passes out. Panther could stand it a while because of his endurance and overall ca-do attitude, but eventually he would drop. All the while Sunfire just flies overhead not being able to be touched by panther.

Also, I know Panther beat the Fantastic Four in oneof his first appearances, which includes Johnny Storm. Well, if you look at that battle, he never shrugged off a heat blast of johnny's. Instead he trapped him ina frakin gbox. Yes, it is a good feat to defeat the F4, but he fought them by getting the drop on them in a special roomed he designed to fight them. It's like Batman defeating someone in the batcave. it might still be a good feat, but it has ver ylittel relevance to this battle in any way.

Winner- Sunfire

Harlekin

06-25-2007, 04:59 AM

FINAL COMMENTS: Graviton vs Iron Man
BUT, this does prove a point I was making. As pointed out, the only character refered to as being drugged is Purple Man in New Avengers #1. It was my statement that none of the other characters were drugged.
But they had to be, otherwise it would be impossible to hold them. You don't just hold Count Nefaria or Graviton through a simple jail cell. Considering they only referenced the drugs as power inhibitors, they lead to the most logical conclusion.

Either way, In Iron Man #8, we see the battle, and Harlekin even gives us a few of the pictures (but, not the best ones, where Graviton is handing the entire New Avengers their butts and using his powers to their fullest extent).
Fullest extent? If you want, I really can post the scans to that battle, but I'll think they'll be more damning to you than to me. Anyone who has read this debate, or simply read up on Graviton knows that is far from Graviton's fullest capabilities. Handling a couple of street level characters is pretty beneath Graviton's power.

I point this out because if Graviton was being drugged, he should have the same problem as Purple Man, which is no ability to use his powers. This isn't the case; thus, it must be assumed that he isn't drugged and weakened upon escape.
If there is any conclusion to be made, it is either that Graviton purposefully did not use his full power, or he was weakened. I'm sorry, but as I've pointed out, there's so much more and better Graviton can do than slap around Spider-Man, Captain America, Luke Cage, Wolverine and Spider-Woman.

WINNER=GRAVITON

Harlekin

06-25-2007, 05:07 AM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Sunfire
Prep Time will go to Panther, but it is difficult to say how much he can really use. I'm not sure he knows this Sunfire, but he does know the other one. This will allow him to prepare, but he might be expecting some differences since this is really a different person which makes it hard to judge what he will really prepare.
Sunfire has visited this reality before, and there's quite the possibility Black Panther will know of that encounter. Otherwise, as you point out, he's familiar with the name, so he'll prepare for that at least.

as for the fight, Sunfire's main weapon is her heat. Now, most are saying that Black Panther has a suit with a vibranium weave and everything. yes. He does, and that suit would definately help him from the concusson of hte blasts, but not necessarily the heat of the blast.
Sunfire is severely hampered by the location though, here. Hell's Kitchen - populated. Hell's Kitchen is densely built area of New York, practically bustling with people. Beyond the fact that Black Panther has the element of surprise, she's not even really going to be able to use her powers in an effective way, in the fear that she'll kill people.

Sunfire would just have to rais ethe temp up high enough until he eventually passes out. Panther could stand it a while because of his endurance and overall ca-do attitude, but eventually he would drop. All the while Sunfire just flies overhead not being able to be touched by panther.
This strategy has a few weak points:
- Populated area, so she can't get too hot.
- She would have to find the Panther.
- She would have to hit the Panther.
- Panther is prepared for heat. He'll take something along to protect him from it.

Now, I've outlined my strategy in my opening post (http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=11927342&postcount=1290) (including a bit about the Johnny Storm) defeat. I'm sorry, but Sunfire just doesn't stand much of a chance against an opponent she can't go all-out against, and one she won't even be able to find.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Phaedrus45

06-25-2007, 08:57 AM

I'll just say it again. Purple Man was the only one referenced as being drugged. He didn't have any power over Power Man. Graviton used his powers very, very effectively. BUT, he has sustained some kind of brain damage, as mentioned earlier. We know that cells can be made to block out powers, that you just don't have to use drugs. I believe with the power out, it made those with powers able to use them. I believe that Graviton's brain damage is what causes his appearing "weak." BUT, Iron Man had no problem with him, and could have killed him, if not for having Captain America stop him. This was because of the Extremis Armor.

We'll have to let the voters decide in the end. That's my viewpoint, and I know you have an opposing view point. I believe the evidence of Purple Man speaks for itself, and the evidence that there is a way to defeat Graviton if you have a knowledge of his character.

I rest my case. Let the jury decide my characters fate.

Winner = Iron Man

Phaedrus45

06-25-2007, 01:59 PM

I've decided to concede Tana Nile vs. Damien Hellstrom. She'd know nothing about him, and this is a populated location, which helps Damien with his followers being nearby and him able to feed off of. I've thought it over, and I believe Hellstrom would win this. Bad draw for me!

Ahura Mazda

06-25-2007, 04:58 PM

This handbook includes what you mention. As it says, "the Scarlet Witch, in attempting to summon other Avengers, inadvertently caused Wonder Man to partially cross over from the world of the dead; she was able to fully restore him to life not long afterward." Remember, much of Scarlet Witch's powers are random happenstance. As the bio points out, the was "inadvertent" in the first place. Plus, Wonder Man is a being of ionic energy, too. What powers she has over organic matter is already described in the bio I provided, which really is pretty accurate for the Scarlet Witch all of us would be facing.

It includes orgainic matter, that is all I am saying.

When Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver joined, it created an uproar among civilians and U.S. government alike. Again, it's a strange thing to be arguing that Frankie Raye would be somewhat familiar with her, especially since I've pointed out twice that it would be just what she remembered from news and such.

And you are assuming this happened before she became a herald when this was in the 60s. Iam stating she was in space when the Scarlet witch joinned and in any case there was no profile on what powers she had. From that name it could just mean it is a witch who deals in blood.

I would ask when any member of the Avengers ever came into contact with Frankie Raye. She was a Herald for a short time, after all. Silver Surfer and some other Heralds I would agree with. Nova was almost a blip on the Marvel 616 radar screen.

Jack of Hearts and Quasar were both Avengers. So was Eros. Other space guys also were probably part of the roster at one time or another.

20% is terrible odds, in my opinion. In fact, it seems like Scarlet Witch will be trying to evade more than attack Nova's assault. That means, if Nova shoots cosmic bolts at her 5 times, one could very well hit her and knock her unconscious. Sounds like pretty good odds to me.

I apologise if this gets offensive but do you have an inkling of probabilities? If you are sure that 80% of the time you will succeed, you will use your powers and win. It is rare that you will lose. By the way, it also does not mean that if your powers work 4 times in a row, they will not work the 5th. It means that each time you use them the PROBABLE scenario is that they will work the way you intended. However, each time there is an off chance they will work differently. With a 4 out of 5 chance which is equivalent to a 80% probability, it will be rare that you will fail.

But, not as much as Scarlet Witch. If this is a question of who will be more effected by those nearby, I give the very human Scarlet Witch that problem.

Not if she is confident in her abilities which she is.

To point out, this is "Chaos Magic." It's very different than the other magic users. Scarlet Witch needs preparation and the ability to do "chaos magic." She's not going to rattle off spells, like Dr. Strange. All the voters have to do is really remember the type of character Scarlet Witch was in Avengers. (My memory remembers her being captured a lot.)

That is quite erroneus because many time you see her shootig hex bolts and such on the fly. Only her big spells take preperation which she has time for.

This is not 1 out of 5 times that Scarlet Witch will fail in a contest between these two. This means there is a 20% chance in this battle that one of Scarlet Witch's chaos magic spells won't work as she desires. This is not going to be a "one hit and Scarlet Witch wins" type of match. Let's not confuse the voters by taking the probability out of context.

First off, one hit can be enough give there is no recuperation from magic. Second, 4 hits is necessarily enough. Last, it is quite possible that no spell backfires giuven eahc time it is the same probability that 80% of her spells will work.

Winner = The Scarlet Witch

Phaedrus45

06-25-2007, 05:52 PM

And you are assuming this happened before she became a herald when this was in the 60s. Iam stating she was in space when the Scarlet witch joinned and in any case there was no profile on what powers she had. From that name it could just mean it is a witch who deals in blood.

Ah, I see the confusion, maybe. Nova became a Herald for Galactus in the early 80's, during Byrne's run on the Fantastic Four. She was around in human form long enough to go through all the things I mentioned.

I apologise if this gets offensive but do you have an inkling of probabilities? If you are sure that 80% of the time you will succeed, you will use your powers and win. It is rare that you will lose. By the way, it also does not mean that if your powers work 4 times in a row, they will not work the 5th. It means that each time you use them the PROBABLE scenario is that they will work the way you intended. However, each time there is an off chance they will work differently. With a 4 out of 5 chance which is equivalent to a 80% probability, it will be rare that you will fail.

Yep, I have an inkling about probabilities; after all, I took Logic in college. Many of the battles in this tournament, especially the later rounds, won't be won in a quick second. Frankie is extremely durable, especially when fighting someone less durable, like Scarlet Witch. If Frankie Raye was fighting one of the more classic sorcerors, like Dr. Strange, Clea, or Loki, it would be a different match; but, Scarlet Witch isn't your classic Marvel spell caster. It's more about screwing up other people's powers. So, just because you screw up a shot Nova takes at you doesn't mean it won't effect the battle. (Ooops, the shot went wacky to the right, causing the building to fall on top of Scarlet Witch!) Plus, Scarlet Witch is very good to have in a team environment; but, alone on her own against a Cosmic Being....I don't think so. But, that's my opinion. The only opinion that matters is the voters.

That is quite erroneus because many time you see her shootig hex bolts and such on the fly. Only her big spells take preperation which she has time for.

The power of a Cosmic Being will have her "on the fly," I think.

First off, one hit can be enough give there is no recuperation from magic. Second, 4 hits is necessarily enough. Last, it is quite possible that no spell backfires giuven eahc time it is the same probability that 80% of her spells will work.

I'm trying to think of a time when one of her spells took out someone with the powers of a cosmic being. Let's not forget Frankie Raye is extemely durable, and has a protective fire all around her body that incinerates anything that comes too close to her.

Winner = Scarlet Witch

Ahura Mazda

06-26-2007, 08:52 AM

Ah, I see the confusion, maybe. Nova became a Herald for Galactus in the early 80's, during Byrne's run on the Fantastic Four. She was around in human form long enough to go through all the things I mentioned.

Yep, I have an inkling about probabilities; after all, I took Logic in college. Many of the battles in this tournament, especially the later rounds, won't be won in a quick second. Frankie is extremely durable, especially when fighting someone less durable, like Scarlet Witch. If Frankie Raye was fighting one of the more classic sorcerors, like Dr. Strange, Clea, or Loki, it would be a different match; but, Scarlet Witch isn't your classic Marvel spell caster. It's more about screwing up other people's powers. So, just because you screw up a shot Nova takes at you doesn't mean it won't effect the battle. (Ooops, the shot went wacky to the right, causing the building to fall on top of Scarlet Witch!) Plus, Scarlet Witch is very good to have in a team environment; but, alone on her own against a Cosmic Being....I don't think so. But, that's my opinion. The only opinion that matters is the voters.

The power of a Cosmic Being will have her "on the fly," I think.

I'm trying to think of a time when one of her spells took out someone with the powers of a cosmic being. Let's not forget Frankie Raye is extemely durable, and has a protective fire all around her body that incinerates anything that comes too close to her.

Winner = Scarlet Witch

First off, I want to apologise for my tone last night given I was slightly inebriated having just come home after a business dinner which finished with some cognac.

I am just going to conclude that her powers were enough to severly affect Ultron who was far more durable then Nova. Also, keep in mind as an ex-herald she was not as powerful as before. And Nova's fire shield does not protect her from magical blasts. Plus with other people around she will be careful on how hot it gets.

(And oops the blast just blew up in Nova's face knocking her out. - Another possible scenarion and more probable then the one stated above.)

Anyways, I see you agree with me so we shall see how the voters decide to vote.

Phaedrus45

06-26-2007, 10:18 AM

I'm good with ending this debate, and your tone was just fine. It's a debate, and at this stage we can't help but get a bit heated. But, thankfully we've been doing this for months and know it's not personal or anything.

My only comment would be with regards to Ultron. Ultron is very susceptable(sp?) to Scarlet Witch's powers, as I've read from a couple websites. Something about the make-up of his character combined with Scarlet Witch's powers don't work to well for Ultron. Frankie Raye would be different, especially not being a mechanical being.

Good debate, either way.

Phaedrus45

06-27-2007, 10:42 AM

Debating Is Over!

Voting May Begin!!!

Phaedrus45

06-27-2007, 11:03 AM

*Iron Man

*Damien Hellstrom

*Black Panther

*Frankie Raye

Harlekin

06-27-2007, 11:03 AM

I'm so glad three of these matches were my own.

Graviton
Damion Hellstrom
Black Panther
Scarlet Witch - Great debate between you two. Considering the location (in which I feel Frankie Raye can't work too full capacity) and the fact that, at least to me, 80% are some incredibly good odds, gives the Scarlet Witch the win for me.

Trigger

06-27-2007, 11:25 AM

Scarlet Witch
Sunfire
Gravitron
Hellstrom- I thought his name was Hell storm?

Ahura Mazda

06-27-2007, 11:54 AM

Iron Man - If he can figure out the source of powers and disrupt them, then this is an easy win, I honestly am not sure but ended up flipping a coin, sorry :o
Damion Hellstrom
Black Panther - If he can beat the Hulk :rolleyes:, I do not see him losing to Sunfire
Scarlet Witch

Midnight Ice

06-27-2007, 01:33 PM

Graviton
Damion Hellstrom
Black Panther
Scarlet Witch

POWdER-man

06-27-2007, 02:04 PM

Iron Man (I can't remember who beat him last year, but he took out some heavy hitters...I think it was Dr. Strange....)
Scarlet Witch
Damien Hellstrom
Black Panther

wiegeabo

06-27-2007, 04:55 PM

Iron Man (although if Graviton can put the population in danger, he could keep Tony too busy to fight well)
Damien Hellstrom
Black Panther (bad location for Sunfire, and T'Challa has prep-time)
Scarlet Witch

primemover

06-28-2007, 02:56 AM

Gravitron - (too much raw power, though Tony might tech his way out, there really isn't an obvious achilles heel with Graviton, his powers are really fundemental but extremly far reaching and versitile)
Damien Hellstrom
Sunfire - (not really buying the stealth angle like Sunfire is helpless, and being hampered by innocents it's not like Hell's Kitchen is a street in China with wall to wall people)
Scarlet Witch - (damn witches, too many ways to get around pure power)

Harlekin

06-28-2007, 05:22 AM

Current standings:
Graviton and Iron Man tie at 4-4
Damion Hellstrom is beating Tana Nile with 8-0
Black Panther is beating Sunfire with 6-2
Scarlet Witch is beating Frankie Raye with 7-1

kytrigger

06-28-2007, 12:50 PM

Scarlet Witch
Sunfire
Hellstrom
Gravitron-really tough and good match, but I do think that the innocents pose a major obstacle for Iron Man here giving Gravitron the slight edge.

JewishHobbit

06-28-2007, 07:43 PM

Scarlet Witch
Black Panther
Damien Hellstrom
Iron Man

Phaedrus45

06-29-2007, 10:23 AM

Final Results:

Iron Man tied with Graviton 5-5
Damien Hellstrom defeats Tana Nile 10-0
Black Panther defeats Sunfire-Exiles 7-3
Scarlet Witch defeats Frankie Raye 9-1

Phaedrus45

06-29-2007, 10:28 AM

REMATCH:

Iron Man (PHAEDRUS45) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Iron-man.jpg

vs.

Gravitron (HARLEKIN) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graviton_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Graviton.jpg

Phaedrus45

06-29-2007, 10:32 AM

LOCATION: HYDRO-BASE

Hydro-Base is a fictional base in the Marvel Universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Universe). It first appeared in Sub-Mariner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Mariner) #61, created by Steve Gerber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Gerber), Bill Everett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Everett), and Win Mortimer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Win_Mortimer) (May 1973).
Hydro-Base is a floating seacraft disguised as a natural island floating off the coast of North America outside US territorial waters. Its first known user was the mad ecologist Dr. Herman Frayne, aka Doctor Hydro (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Doctor_Hydro&action=edit), who used it both as a laboratory and an airbase on which to land hijacked planes. Doctor Hydro planned to turn the planes’ passengers into amphibious people, using Terrigen Mist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrigen_Mist) he acquired from the renegade Inhuman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhuman), Maelstrom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maelstrom_%28comics%29). After Doctor Hydro died, his subjects (now known as the Hydro-Men) inhabited the pseudo-island, along with the marine scientist known as Stingray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stingray_%28comics%29) (Dr. Walter Newell). The Hydro-Men lived on the island until Mister Fantastic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_Fantastic) and Inhuman scientists found a way to cure them. Stingray continued to use the facility as an oceanographic laboratory, and a residence for himself and his wife, who would serve as caretakers. When the FAA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FAA) revoked the Avengers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avengers_%28comics%29)’s flight privileges from their mansion, Stingray invited them to create a private airfield on Hydro-Base. The Avengers later moved their headquarters to Hydro-Base when their mansion was destroyed by the Masters of Evil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masters_of_Evil), and Stingray became an unofficial member of the Avengers until they returned to their old base. Hydro-Base was destroyed however by Doctor Doom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Doom), although Walter and his wife were able to escape.

(THIS IS AN UNPOPULATED AREA.)

Phaedrus45

06-29-2007, 02:18 PM

REMATCH: GRAVITON vs. IRON MAN:

While the other rematch takes into consideration they will both know of each other, this one won't mean much in terms of both characters. They already were very familiar with each other. The only difference will be there is nobody around; so, the argument that Tony will be worried about the safety of others goes out the window.

I just looked longer at this next location, and discover it actually benefits Iron Man quite a bit, as it's an old Avenger's base of operations. I'm sure Tony will come quite prepared with armor that would need to be sea-worthy, as destruction might be a big possibility.

Of course, my opponent and I know we both will stick to our previous arguments concerning how well Iron Man can handle someone of Graviton's power level. I'll repeat my key points below:

I want to point out a couple very important quotes:

(Speaking about the Thunderbolts) They were freed by the Thunderbolt Jolt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolt_%28comics%29), who borrowed technology derived from X-51 (aka Machine Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Man)) whose flight capabilities were powered by "cancelling out the gravity equation." Now unaffected by Hall's power, the Thunderbolts escaped and continued to battle, ultimately cancelling Hall's access to his power. When Hall regained his power, gravitational force rushed inward, collapsing inward on himself. He was shunted to another dimension once again.

And:

Graviton was last seen, apparently alive and well, escaping the Raft (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Raft_%28comics%29) (a metahuman prison). he fought and bested the New Avengers, but was defeated and almost killed by Iron Man after Hall severely injured Spider-Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man).

I want to point out that you are only as good as your last appearance, and it seems to me that once a group or hero understands Gravitron's powers that it makes defeating much, much easier. Clearly, Iron Man has an understanding of Gravitron. Since Gravitron was difficult for this New Avengers team to defeat, until Iron Man came along, it shows he was still very powerful. But, looking at the New Avengers, that first appearance, many of them aren't suited to take out Gravitron. Iron Man is. Tony Stark will know of the same information that the Thunderbolts discovered from Machine Man...Tony Stark will have all of his past encounters as information in defeating Gravitron....and, most importantly, Tony Stark has 24 hours to come up with the means to defeat his opponent, an opponent he's met and defeated before.

Also:

I discovered some interesting information in my research. It would appear that Graviton has "evidently sustained a head injury," as stated in the most new Official Handbook, and this head injury is concurrent with his appearance in New Avengers. Plus, I just finished reading through New Avengers, and the only mention of drugs is in regards to Purple Man. None of the escape prisoners seemed to be effected by any drugs at all, and even Purple Man seemed uneffected by any drugs. The idea that Graviton is drugged is purely speculation; and, from what I read, false speculation.

What defeated Graviton wasn't "a lucky shot," but Tony Stark's Extremis enhanced Iron Man. Tony Stark had a means of defeating Graviton, and especially with his prep-time, he'll be further prepared. Also, this head injury makes Graviton "more megalomaniacal than ever during this ... escape, declaring himself capable of forgiving and punishing sins." Obviously, Graviton isn't in his right mind, and this greatly hinders his scientific and deductive abilities. Dude's loco, even more than before.

Of course, I was incorrect about Purple Man, as I was looking at the end of issue #2. Here is what I was able to deduce from my findings:

I do stand corrected. I had looked at the end of New Avengers #2, where it shows Purple Man taking control of Luke Cage. Of course, in issue #3, they show this was a trick, and Purple Man couldn't use his powers at all.

BUT, this does prove a point I was making. As pointed out, the only character refered to as being drugged is Purple Man in New Avengers #1. It was my statement that none of the other characters were drugged. In Iron Man #8, we see the battle, and Harlekin even gives us a few of the pictures (but, not the best ones, where Graviton is handing the entire New Avengers their butts and using his powers to their fullest extent). I point this out because if Graviton was being drugged, he should have the same problem as Purple Man, which is no ability to use his powers. This isn't the case; thus, it must be assumed that he isn't drugged and weakened upon escape.

Well, that's it. There is one clear difference in this match that I hope will sway the readers to determine that Iron Man holds an advantage now: Location. There is absolutely no civilians around, and this was also an old Avenger's base, in which Tony would have the most information about. Plus, Tony will be prepared for the water environment if it becomes necessary.

Winner = Iron Man

Harlekin

06-30-2007, 11:30 AM

OPENING COMMENTS: Graviton vs Iron Man

I know what you must be thinking: A location without innocents makes this an easier match for Iron Man than last time. There's where you would be, to put it bluntly, wrong. We need to factor in these characters' personalities at this point, and if there's one thing we know about Graviton, it's that he's arrogant and vengeful. Coupled with this is a tendency to immediately apply great force.

How does this affect the match? The Hydrobase is getting destroyed the moment Graviton enters the match. He can protect himself while completely and utterly laying waste to the complex, crushing Iron Man within it. There's not much Iron Man can do to stop this, and there's little he can do to stop himself from being crushed. Graviton has complete control over gravity. The location, a big base that he can crush easily and quickly, is perfect for his kind of power. Tony Stark drowning in the water is just an added bonus.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/2464/gravitonpa6.jpg
WINNER=GRAVITON

Phaedrus45

06-30-2007, 12:16 PM

OPENING COMMENTS: Graviton vs Iron Man

I know what you must be thinking: A location without innocents makes this an easier match for Iron Man than last time. There's where you would be, to put it bluntly, wrong. We need to factor in these characters' personalities at this point, and if there's one thing we know about Graviton, it's that he's arrogant and vengeful. Coupled with this is a tendency to immediately apply great force.

How does this affect the match? The Hydrobase is getting destroyed the moment Graviton enters the match. He can protect himself while completely and utterly laying waste to the complex, crushing Iron Man within it. There's not much Iron Man can do to stop this, and there's little he can do to stop himself from being crushed. Graviton has complete control over gravity. The location, a big base that he can crush easily and quickly, is perfect for his kind of power. Tony Stark drowning in the water is just an added bonus.

WINNER=GRAVITON

The problem with this lies in the fact that Tony Stark will realize this would be Graviton's first idea. Thus, he'll have both the knowledge and the armor ready to survive in water. With Tony's flight capability, he'll easily make himself airborne if needed. With the seabase destroyed, Graviton has just water around him, in which Tony has the upper hand. Tony knows he just needs to drown Graviton like a rat and he's won the match.

Winner = Iron Man

Harlekin

06-30-2007, 12:52 PM

Phaedrus45

06-30-2007, 07:24 PM

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

Airborne? So he's leaving the Hydrobase, aka the location? That's a ring out. I have no doubt Iron Man will have a seafaring armor, but can it withstand the pressures of the ocean together with the forces of gravity pounding down on it? History has shown that is not the case. Iron Man is going down with the Hydrobase or he flees, giving Graviton the win by default.

WINNER=GRAVITON

As JH has stated in the past, we're allowed to go about above the location up to a certain point. (I can't quite remember right now how far at or around. This was determined when we fought on one of the prisons that was surrounded by water.) Even Graviton must be outside and above the location if he's going to destroy it.

As for Iron Man surviving, I am pretty sure he can do better than Gravy. Graviton will emerge somewhere in the Hydro-base, unaware of exactly where to go right away. Iron Man won't have that problem.

Winner = Iron Man

Harlekin

07-01-2007, 03:29 AM

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

Considering the Hydrobase is quite a bit under water, I'd say above water is out of the game. Even with the Raft, flying characters were only able to stray away from the core location a mile at best. As for needing to be outside the location to destroy it: What makes you think that? He can just have everything around him be destroyed. Essentially, he's still in the Hydrobase.

Iron Man can't go top speed in the Hydrobase, so Graviton has at least a minute or two. He knows the way these matches work, and isn't going to waste time. While Iron Man is flying to meet Graviton, the walls suddenly crash into him as the life is crushed out of him.

WINNER=GRAVITON

Phaedrus45

07-01-2007, 12:33 PM

I'm just going from Wiki's description, but it does say "Hydro-Base is a floating seacraft disguised as a natural island floating off the coast of North America outside US territorial waters." If it looks like a natural island, then it is above water in some areas. Now, if it's underwater, Graviton would be even more at a disadvantage. If he destroys the base, he kills himself.

Winner = Iron Man

Harlekin

07-01-2007, 07:44 PM

REBUTTAL: Graviton vs Iron Man

I recalled the Hydrobase being underwater, but I checked it out and you're right. I could've sworn there was also something underwater, but oh well. Two things: It doesn't really change anything, since Graviton is destroying the place immediately, and if it IS underwater, Graviton wouldn't kill himself at all. Complete control of gravity bears repeating here. The water wouldn't even come close.

Now, if anyone doubts that Graviton would go for the killing blow immediately in a rematch, I point you to his first fight against the West Coast Avengers, where he didn't hesitate to kill Wonder Man (who turned out to be alive in the end, but Graviton certainly thought he was dead).

WINNER=GRAVITON

Phaedrus45

07-01-2007, 10:18 PM

I'm cool with ending the debate. The voters know everything we said before. Voting starts again tomorrow; then, we can hopefully get to new matches. If it's another tie, then the match will appear in Sparta's thread. We get one write-up and one rebuttal of the original person's write-up if that happens. (Whoever responds second with a rebuttal cannot rebutt the other person's rebuttal.)

Phaedrus45

07-02-2007, 11:48 AM

Voting May Begin!!!

Phaedrus45

07-02-2007, 11:49 AM

*Iron Man

Harlekin

07-02-2007, 11:58 AM

You should vote Graviton.

Phaedrus45

07-02-2007, 12:06 PM

Ah, Jedi mind tricks!

wiegeabo

07-02-2007, 12:35 PM

Iron Man (this time)

kytrigger

07-02-2007, 01:34 PM

Iron Man

Ahura Mazda

07-03-2007, 03:58 AM

I am still of two minds about this one. The prep time is a big advantage as long as Stark can disrupt the gravitons.

Iron Man.

POWdER-man

07-03-2007, 04:30 PM

Iron Man

JewishHobbit

07-03-2007, 07:06 PM

Iron Man

Phaedrus45

07-05-2007, 10:10 AM

Iron Man beats Graviton 6-1

Phaedrus45

07-05-2007, 10:14 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg

BRACKET 1:

Iron Man (PHAEDRUS45) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Iron-man.jpg

vs.

Damien Hellstrom (HARLEKIN) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimon_Hellstrom)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_b7_2.jpg

BRACKET 2:

Black Panther (HARLEKIN) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Black-Panther.jpg

VS.

Scarlet Witch (AHURA MAZDA) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlet_Witch)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_scarletwitch.jpg

Phaedrus45

07-05-2007, 10:30 AM

LOCATION: PROVIDENCE (Not Populated)

Providence is a fictional island featured in comic books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comic_books) published by Marvel Comics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Comics). Providence, located somewhere in the of the South Pacific Ocean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pacific_Ocean), is an artificial island comprised of parts from Cable’s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_%28comics%29) old space station Greymalkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greymalkin).

Since Providence is built out of a space station from the future, it has an abundance of advanced technology. Most of this technology Cable allows to be freely given out to the world.
Teleportation Matrix – Providence is equipped with a teleportation matrix that responds to the verbal commands of both Cable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_%28comics%29) and Deadpool (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadpool_%28comics%29). It allows them to be teleported anywhere on Earth, and was once modified to teleport between dimensions as well.
Skimmer Jets – Self-subsisting, solar-powered vehicles used by Cable when he no longer had the ability to fly of his own accord.
Fission Waste Processor – Used for processing waste, and presumably an energy supply, this device was shared with Tony Stark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man).

Ahura Mazda

07-05-2007, 10:32 AM

Winner - Scarlet Witch

Harlekin

07-09-2007, 05:05 AM

OPENING COMMENTS: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

This is a very interesting match. Black Panther is the last of the "normal" humans in this competition, and along the line he has taken out quite a few foes. I'm afraid he can add the Scarlet Witch to this line of victories. Black Panther's advantage in this match is after all not to be underestimated: the good old preperation time. A good 24 hours to deal with an opponent he already knows the ins and outs on.

And let's be real here, the Black Panther really will know everything there is to know about the Scarlet Witch. His entire purpose in joining the Avengers after all, was to spy on them. Stop and think about that for a second. The Scarlet Witch will know the Black Panther sure, but she comes nowhere near when it comes to the knowledge department. She is not one for preparing while that's pretty much what the Panther lives for.

To cop a quote from Sun Tzu: "If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."

Let's recap for just a moment. Black Panther has multiple resources that the Scarlet Witch doesn't, and the Scarlet Witch isn't exactly known for her preparation skills either. Then there's location, one that the Panther will know about (although he'll have no extensive knowledge of the place), and one the Scarlet Witch most likely wouldn't know. Besides that, Providence is built on technology and science, areas in which Panther greatly excells.

This will be a battle depending on skills and yes, also power:
- Black Panther is stronger, faster and a great deal more agile than the Witch.
- Black Panther is stealth personified. He has evaded foes for hours on end, and there can be no denying that the advantage of surprise is decidedly in the Panther's hands.
- The Scarlet Witch is ultimately susceptible to knock-out gas and similar tricks as anyone else. With 24 hours to prepare, and his own resources at his disposal, the Panther can keep the Witch busy long enough to leap in and end the battle with a quick blow. Similarly, he can just use any number of gases or potions to knock the Witch out and not really come close to her at all.
- The Black Panther has fought magical enemies before and knows the Scarlet Witch in and out, an advantage that she does not have.
- Heck, even in the case of the Witch being able to attack him, he's got vibranium suit to protect him from anything she can really throw at him. Lest we forget, this version of the Witch is ultimately dependant on her surroundings. She needs to affect them before they can affect the Panther. Panther has no such issues.

I'm gonna let you guys mull this over with a final Sun Tzu quote: "All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3025/blackpanthernt3.jpg
WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Harlekin

07-09-2007, 05:11 AM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch
Now what counter is there to magic? More magic but yet none is available to the Black Panther.
A) There is some magic available to him actually (think King Solomon's frogs).
B) Black Panther has met and succesfully fought magic opponents before.
C) One of the Panther's best allies (Brother Voodoo) outclasses the Witch in the magical department, and the two have shared knowledge and information between themselves.

Both characters will have perfect knowledge of each other and of the terrain.
And yet, the Panther will know so much more. The entire reason he joined the Avengers was to spy on them. He's going to know everything there is to know about the Witch, while she will only know the basics. The same goes for the location. She will know what the basic Avengers files tell her, while he will have done an investigation on the island.

Black Panther will attempt to take out the beautiful Scarlet Witch using range but the range can do nothing against her magic that can attack him from much farther.
She'll have to find him first. He knows faster and a lot more stealthier than her. She's going in blind, and since she's a hero first and foremost, she's not going to blast everything in sight to get to the Panther, which she'll have to do if she wants to find him.

He cannot avoid anything she does to him. And this match could end up with the Black Panther being transformed permanently into a black cat.
Not really. He has all of the advantages, while the Witch really has nothing.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Ahura Mazda

07-09-2007, 07:26 AM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

This is a very interesting match. Black Panther is the last of the "normal" humans in this competition, and along the line he has taken out quite a few foes. I'm afraid he can add the Scarlet Witch to this line of victories. Black Panther's advantage in this match is after all not to be underestimated: the good old preperation time. A good 24 hours to deal with an opponent he already knows the ins and outs on.

The thing is prep time will help her quite a bit as well. She can have spells prepared that can turn him into a cat if she so desires. She can also create a field whereabouts everything he does goes wrong.

And let's be real here, the Black Panther really will know everything there is to know about the Scarlet Witch. His entire purpose in joining the Avengers after all, was to spy on them. Stop and think about that for a second. The Scarlet Witch will know the Black Panther sure, but she comes nowhere near when it comes to the knowledge department. She is not one for preparing while that's pretty much what the Panther lives for.

First off, they will know each other very well and that means there is no more advantage to one or the other. Plus let us not forget that the Scarlet Witch's powers grew over time and while the Black Panther was part of the team they had not yet reached the stage where she was affecting organic matter. And when he rejoinned she was affecting reality which is not the Witch I have (unfortunately).

To cop a quote from Sun Tzu: "If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected."

Nice quote, one that I know quite well and studied when in school. In fact, lets take the first part because that is what is happening here. Against superiour forces, evade. Something the Black Panther is truly a master of given his defeat of the Hulk (:cmad:) in this event (but never in the comics :mad:), however, magic is something which can look for a target or may not even need one. It can affect areas rather then just people.

Let's recap for just a moment. Black Panther has multiple resources that the Scarlet Witch doesn't, and the Scarlet Witch isn't exactly known for her preparation skills either. Then there's location, one that the Panther will know about (although he'll have no extensive knowledge of the place), and one the Scarlet Witch most likely wouldn't know. Besides that, Providence is built on technology and science, areas in which Panther greatly excells.

Now the Witch has access to the Avenger's database which will have information on Providence as well. They will be on equal footing on that front. He will have no more information then she.

This will be a battle depending on skills and yes, also power:
- Black Panther is stronger, faster and a great deal more agile than the Witch.

Yes he is somewhat stronger but let us not forget he is just peak human meaning the difference is not as great as it was between him and the Hulk.

- Black Panther is stealth personified. He has evaded foes for hours on end, and there can be no denying that the advantage of surprise is decidedly in the Panther's hands.

As I stated before she does not need line of sight for her spells to take affect.

- The Scarlet Witch is ultimately susceptible to knock-out gas and similar tricks as anyone else. With 24 hours to prepare, and his own resources at his disposal, the Panther can keep the Witch busy long enough to leap in and end the battle with a quick blow. Similarly, he can just use any number of gases or potions to knock the Witch out and not really come close to her at all.

She can also deflect any projectile coming at her plus she can simply cause the sleeping gas to blow up in his face which will put him down as surely as anyone else.

I am just noticing the way he is being written here is like Batman with prep time and sounds just as ridiculous. I honestl do not think he should vene be in the contest at this stage. However, here we are and you are assuming that he can keep her busy until he surprises her. The thing is she could just do the same and her keeping him busy could result to a very quick battle.

-- The Black Panther has fought magical enemies before and knows the Scarlet Witch in and out, an advantage that she does not have.

I do not agreas they were on the same team. Plus she even lead the team for awhile. OPf course, she knows the balck panther in and out.

- Heck, even in the case of the Witch being able to attack him, he's got vibranium suit to protect him from anything she can really throw at him. Lest we forget, this version of the Witch is ultimately dependant on her surroundings. She needs to affect them before they can affect the Panther. Panther has no such issues.

First off, vibranium does not protect against magic. So really that armour does him no good whatsoever. Second, this witch can affect organic matter as this was done before Bendis came onto the comics and her reality altering powers which would make this match a foregone conclusion.

She can affect the Panther directly wîthout having to affect all the weaponry and otrher items he may be carrying. All things which are likely to hurt him more then will hurt her.

-I'm gonna let you guys mull this over with a final Sun Tzu quote: "All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

I like your use of the quotes which can be applied to busines life just as easily as to war.

But they are just as easily applied by the Witch as by T'Challa.

One thing I was looking at the Marvel website where they were rating the different heroes. The official ratings are in blue and T'Challa has the following ratings:

Intelligence - 5/7
Strength - 3/7
Speed - 2/7
Durability - 3/7
Energy Projection - 3/7
Fighting Skills - 5/7

The Witch's were as follows

Intelligence - 6/7
Strength - 2/7
Speed - 3/7
Durability - 2/7
Energy Projection - 7/7
Fighting Skills - 2/7

Apart from the fact there is not much difference between the physical ratings (Marvel offically assumes that the Witch is FASTER then the Panther), Marvel also states that the Witch is more intelligent then T'Challa.

WINNER=SCARLET WITCH

Ahura Mazda

07-09-2007, 07:43 AM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

A) There is some magic available to him actually (think King Solomon's frogs).
B) Black Panther has met and succesfully fought magic opponents before.
C) One of the Panther's best allies (Brother Voodoo) outclasses the Witch in the magical department, and the two have shared knowledge and information between themselves.

This is what Marvel states about Solomon's forge:

He also fought Kiber the Cruel during a quest for the mystic time-shifting artifacts known as King Solomon's Frogs; these produced an alternate version of T'Challa from a future ten years hence, a merry telepathic Panther with a terminal brain aneurysm.

The magic is no use to him, and also please describe once when he defeated a magic opponent on his own without dying in the process.

na T'Challa has no magic skill for himself nor will he be talking to Voodoo before this battle or I will then suggest That the Scarlet Witch will go see Agatha Harkness and get speed training using her chaos magic to devestating affect against T'Challa. The other thing is they have two very different types of magic given oodoo magic is nothing like Chaos magic. There is no help there.

And yet, the Panther will know so much more. The entire reason he joined the Avengers was to spy on them. He's going to know everything there is to know about the Witch, while she will only know the basics. The same goes for the location. She will know what the basic Avengers files tell her, while he will have done an investigation on the island.

Adn surprisingly I do not agree. He will not know so much more. How can he? Her powers were evolving all the time plus they are magic based. The Black Panther knows about science, but magic, please....he can bring nothing to the table.

She'll have to find him first. He knows faster and a lot more stealthier than her. She's going in blind, and since she's a hero first and foremost, she's not going to blast everything in sight to get to the Panther, which she'll have to do if she wants to find him.

As I stated before area of affect means she can affect an area without needing line of sight. And there is no reason for her not to blast everything in sight as this area is not populated.

Not really. He has all of the advantages, while the Witch really has nothing.

He has the one advantage of sleeping with Storm.....that is the only one I can think of and it really will not affect his defeat here.

WINNER=SCARLET WITCH

Harlekin

07-09-2007, 08:43 AM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch
The thing is prep time will help her quite a bit as well. She can have spells prepared that can turn him into a cat if she so desires. She can also create a field whereabouts everything he does goes wrong.
When has she ever shown this, exactly? She actually uses magic sparingly in battle, and although she can read up on a few spells, she's not going to be able to apply them without line of sight. She's simply not that good. I'll gladly take this statement back if you can disprove it, but I sorely doubt you can.

First off, they will know each other very well and that means there is no more advantage to one or the other. Plus let us not forget that the Scarlet Witch's powers grew over time and while the Black Panther was part of the team they had not yet reached the stage where she was affecting organic matter. And when he rejoinned she was affecting reality which is not the Witch I have (unfortunately).
The only organic matter she has affected is Wonder Man, who mostly came back through his own willpower. Black Panther returned to the team shortly in vol. 3, first during the Ultron battle and later during the Red Zone arc. By that latter arc, Scarlet Witch's powers had pretty much stopped their evolution in the sense that her next appearance suddenly has her with reality altering powers. And while the Scarlet Witch is smart, she's not in the Panther's league, especially not when it comes to planning.

Nice quote, one that I know quite well and studied when in school. In fact, lets take the first part because that is what is happening here. Against superiour forces, evade. Something the Black Panther is truly a master of given his defeat of the Hulk (:cmad:) in this event (but never in the comics :mad:), however, magic is something which can look for a target or may not even need one. It can affect areas rather then just people.
Scarlet Witch isn't going to just randomnly throw magic at things in the hopes of affecting the Panther. Area-wide spells take concentration, especially for someone like Wanda, who isn't on the level of a Dr. Strange, Brother Voodoo or even a Clea. She is still largely dependant on her probability altering powers, which she can hardly use when she can't find the Panther.

Yes he is somewhat stronger but let us not forget he is just peak human meaning the difference is not as great as it was between him and the Hulk.
Just peak human? Little difference? Scarlet Witch is not olympic level. She's a woman (they are naturally weaker physically than men) that's well trained, but is really just above your average human. The difference between an average person and an olympic level athlete (in all physical areas) is gigantic.

As I stated before she does not need line of sight for her spells to take affect.
She does if she wants to hit the Panther with them.

She can also deflect any projectile coming at her plus she can simply cause the sleeping gas to blow up in his face which will put him down as surely as anyone else.
- Not if she is taken by surprise or under barrage by them.
- Beyond the fact the Panther won't be close enough to have the gas blow back towards him, he'll make sure not to be affected by his own resources. After all, this woman alters probabilities, it'd be stupid for Panther not to prepare for his own works to fail.

I am just noticing the way he is being written here is like Batman with prep time and sounds just as ridiculous. I honestl do not think he should vene be in the contest at this stage. However, here we are and you are assuming that he can keep her busy until he surprises her. The thing is she could just do the same and her keeping him busy could result to a very quick battle.
- Essentially, the Panther is like Batman with prep-time, but with even greater resources (Wakanda) and also stronger, faster, more agile and smarter. Although I hate to call him that, he's essentially an über-Batman, Grant Morrison style.
- The Witch can't do the same. As I've pointed out, the advantage of surprise is with the Panther, simply because of the fact that he's A) a master of stealth, B) knows his opponent in and out and C) faster and more agile.

I do not agreas they were on the same team. Plus she even lead the team for awhile. OPf course, she knows the balck panther in and out.
Not really. Not only has the Witch never lead the team while Panther was on the team, she has never shown the dedication to preperation that he has. Also, he was on the team for the express purpose of spying on them, a thought that never even entered the Witch's mind. He's been planning to take out his teammates if need be since he joined this team. The Witch can't say the same.

First off, vibranium does not protect against magic. So really that armour does him no good whatsoever. Second, this witch can affect organic matter as this was done before Bendis came onto the comics and her reality altering powers which would make this match a foregone conclusion.
Again, the resurrection of Wonder Man does not equate with the ability to affect organic matter. Than there's the fact that vibranium will be able to protect him for simple magic blasts, and especially against the environment. After all, that's pretty much the reason for the suit even existing.

She can affect the Panther directly wîthout having to affect all the weaponry and otrher items he may be carrying. All things which are likely to hurt him more then will hurt her.
How, exactly? She hasn't shown the ability to do this at all, and it's certainly not her normal strategy. This is not a Sorceror Supreme, she's simply someone whose good at magic, but she has never actually realized that potential like she could've.

But they are just as easily applied by the Witch as by T'Challa.
Odd. I don't recall Wanda being a master tactician.

One thing I was looking at the Marvel website where they were rating the different heroes. The official ratings are in blue and T'Challa has the following ratings:

Intelligence - 5/7
Strength - 3/7
Speed - 2/7
Durability - 3/7
Energy Projection - 3/7
Fighting Skills - 5/7

The Witch's were as follows

Intelligence - 6/7
Strength - 2/7
Speed - 3/7
Durability - 2/7
Energy Projection - 7/7
Fighting Skills - 2/7

Apart from the fact there is not much difference between the physical ratings (Marvel offically assumes that the Witch is FASTER then the Panther), Marvel also states that the Witch is more intelligent then T'Challa.
Oh, c'mon. This is practically insulting my intelligence. Besides the fact that these "official" ratings have always been bull more or less, they do not accurately reflect the comics at all. I'm sorry, but the Scarlet Witch is nowhere near the level of a Black Panther or Iron Man. The Witch being faster than the Panther is also, quite simply, impossible. A rating of 3 would make her as fast as Spider-Man. All this while Captain America is rated as being faster than and as strong as Spidey (again, directly contradicting the comics). Take these "official" ratings with a grain of salt.

The magic is no use to him, and also please describe once when he defeated a magic opponent on his own without dying in the process.
- He pretty much beat Mephisto by himself.
- Achebe, an archnemesis of his.
- Lest we forget, the entire Panther cult is ultimately created around magic.

na T'Challa has no magic skill for himself nor will he be talking to Voodoo before this battle or I will then suggest That the Scarlet Witch will go see Agatha Harkness and get speed training using her chaos magic to devestating affect against T'Challa. The other thing is they have two very different types of magic given oodoo magic is nothing like Chaos magic. There is no help there.
I'm not saying he visits Brother Voodoo and they have a talk. Not at all. Heck, that's not even allowed. All I'm saying is that the Panther has a lot of experience with magic thanks to his alliance with Brother Voodoo, and he regularly faced magic in his series written by Priest.

Adn surprisingly I do not agree. He will not know so much more. How can he? Her powers were evolving all the time plus they are magic based. The Black Panther knows about science, but magic, please....he can bring nothing to the table.
- The Panther has loads of experience in dealing with magic.
- He was on the team right before her powers were Bendis/Austen-inized.
- He has been shown preparing for the eventuality of taking down numerous threats, including his friends and allies. I know you don't like this part of his character but it's there and you can't deny it. He monitors everybody he deems a potential threat.

As I stated before area of affect means she can affect an area without needing line of sight. And there is no reason for her not to blast everything in sight as this area is not populated.
- Blasting everything in sight is grossly out of character.
- If she wants to affect the Panther she needs to see him, which she can't.

Now for anyone still doubting the Panther's abilities I kindly point you to this thread (http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=75726&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0), outlining quite a number of feats that the Panther has pulled off. He can defeat the Scarlet Witch, and without too much trouble, I might add.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Ahura Mazda

07-09-2007, 10:23 AM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

When has she ever shown this, exactly? She actually uses magic sparingly in battle, and although she can read up on a few spells, she's not going to be able to apply them without line of sight. She's simply not that good. I'll gladly take this statement back if you can disprove it, but I sorely doubt you can.

I will try and give you a frame of reference from her run in the Busiek comics. I do not have a scanner but I will refer you to the comic as soon as I can.

The only organic matter she has affected is Wonder Man, who mostly came back through his own willpower. Black Panther returned to the team shortly in vol. 3, first during the Ultron battle and later during the Red Zone arc. By that latter arc, Scarlet Witch's powers had pretty much stopped their evolution in the sense that her next appearance suddenly has her with reality altering powers. And while the Scarlet Witch is smart, she's not in the Panther's league, especially not when it comes to planning.

After Wonder man she was causing diseases in others. But shortly thereafter, we get to the reality altering powers which are not allowed in this competition.

regarding intelligence, I would just like to refer everyone to marvel's official ratings which have her as SMARTER then the Black Panther. You can say what you want, but it is the writers at Marvel that give the characters powers and those writers have placed her as more intelligent in the OFFICIAL ratings.

Scarlet Witch isn't going to just randomnly throw magic at things in the hopes of affecting the Panther. Area-wide spells take concentration, especially for someone like Wanda, who isn't on the level of a Dr. Strange, Brother Voodoo or even a Clea. She is still largely dependant on her probability altering powers, which she can hardly use when she can't find the Panther.

24 hours prep time means she can land with an area of affect spell on the go. It does take concentration but the prep time affords her all the time she needs to prepare the spells. (And Clea is more powerful then Brother Voodoo)

Just peak human? Little difference? Scarlet Witch is not olympic level. She's a woman (they are naturally weaker physically than men) that's well trained, but is really just above your average human. The difference between an average person and an olympic level athlete (in all physical areas) is gigantic.

The Scarlet Witch is an active member of the Avengers who has had training by captain Amrica. She is only average maybe in your mind but she is about Olympic level where the comics are concernned. The Avengers are trainned extensively and have had people like Captain America to train them.

She does if she wants to hit the Panther with them.

Area of affect

- Not if she is taken by surprise or under barrage by them.
- Beyond the fact the Panther won't be close enough to have the gas blow back towards him, he'll make sure not to be affected by his own resources. After all, this woman alters probabilities, it'd be stupid for Panther not to prepare for his own works to fail.

Just for you to note he does not have time before the combat to come in and set up gas bombs hoping she will trip them. And essentially if they are around and given her powers there is more of a chance that he will trip himself up.

- Essentially, the Panther is like Batman with prep-time, but with even greater resources (Wakanda) and also stronger, faster, more agile and smarter. Although I hate to call him that, he's essentially an über-Batman, Grant Morrison style.
- The Witch can't do the same. As I've pointed out, the advantage of surprise is with the Panther, simply because of the fact that he's A) a master of stealth, B) knows his opponent in and out and C) faster and more agile.

The Black panther is not Batman which all these battles are being based on.

Not really. Not only has the Witch never lead the team while Panther was on the team, she has never shown the dedication to preperation that he has. Also, he was on the team for the express purpose of spying on them, a thought that never even entered the Witch's mind. He's been planning to take out his teammates if need be since he joined this team. The Witch can't say the same.

He was no longer on the team when she lead it but when he was she was still higher on the totem pole then he. Also, note that he quickly stopped spying on them when he became freinds with them. So really his spying was only at the start and not something he continued with.

Again, the resurrection of Wonder Man does not equate with the ability to affect organic matter. Than there's the fact that vibranium will be able to protect him for simple magic blasts, and especially against the environment. After all, that's pretty much the reason for the suit even existing.

Across Busiek's run, Wanda's powers grew continuously, as she gained the ability to manipulate organic matter and summon Wonder Man back to life.

Next regarding the suit:

This makes her one of the few Avengers that Ultron fears; his adamantium shell cannot repel her magic.

His vibranium is not going to do any better.

How, exactly? She hasn't shown the ability to do this at all, and it's certainly not her normal strategy. This is not a Sorceror Supreme, she's simply someone whose good at magic, but she has never actually realized that potential like she could've.

She did during Buseik's run. And no she is not at full potential but at full potential she can alter the whole Marvel universe so really even at her skill level the raw power at her disposal makes her one of the most powerful magic users of the Marvel universe.

PLus lets not forget he has no protection against her magic.

Odd. I don't recall Wanda being a master tactician.

And because you do not, that is the final word. She was a leader of the Avengers......whether you like it or not.

Oh, c'mon. This is practically insulting my intelligence. Besides the fact that these "official" ratings have always been bull more or less, they do not accurately reflect the comics at all. I'm sorry, but the Scarlet Witch is nowhere near the level of a Black Panther or Iron Man. The Witch being faster than the Panther is also, quite simply, impossible. A rating of 3 would make her as fast as Spider-Man. All this while Captain America is rated as being faster than and as strong as Spidey (again, directly contradicting the comics). Take these "official" ratings with a grain of salt.

Those wre Marvel's official ratings, not mine and not yours. They are what they are. (And I had to put up with them when people were throwing them in my face.) I let them speak for theselves. And Spiderman is not rated a three on the website.

- He pretty much beat Mephisto by himself.
- Achebe, an archnemesis of his.
- Lest we forget, the entire Panther cult is ultimately created around magic.

Actually the Black Panter was created from eating a heart shaped herb. And te "defeat" of Mephisto was Mephisto relinquishing his SOUL when he realised the woul was attached to the Black Panther "totem". The Black Panther trying a tactic like that would lose given he would no longer be in providence. And Achebe was very low level.

I'm not saying he visits Brother Voodoo and they have a talk. Not at all. Heck, that's not even allowed. All I'm saying is that the Panther has a lot of experience with magic thanks to his alliance with Brother Voodoo, and he regularly faced magic in his series written by Priest.

Lets put it this way, does having a conversation with a lawyer make you an expert on law. No it does not and a random converstaion which may have happenned over the years is not going to help T'Challa against the Scarlet Witch.

- The Panther has loads of experience in dealing with magic.
- He was on the team right before her powers were Bendis/Austen-inized.
- He has been shown preparing for the eventuality of taking down numerous threats, including his friends and allies. I know you don't like this part of his character but it's there and you can't deny it. He monitors everybody he deems a potential threat.

They are both going to know each other. I will admit to that. But I do not think he knows more about her then she knows about him. Especially, how the hell does he understand how her powers work when the writers themselves do not seem to understand.

- Blasting everything in sight is grossly out of character.
- If she wants to affect the Panther she needs to see him, which she can't.

The thing is she will blast at everything she deems a threat and that means he could get caught out at any moment.

He can defeat the Scarlet Witch, and without too much trouble, I might add.

Again, at the end of the day this is a battle of Science versus magic abetween 2 people who know each other perfectly and will know the place. The Black Panther has no defense against her magic but does have prep time. However, so does she and she was trained in magic by Agatha Harkness.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/5357/sw.jpg

PLus she is a babe, and Black panther is a man....:o

WINNER=Scarlet Witch

Harlekin

07-09-2007, 11:53 AM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch
I will try and give you a frame of reference from her run in the Busiek comics. I do not have a scanner but I will refer you to the comic as soon as I can.
Awesome. I've got the entire run.

regarding intelligence, I would just like to refer everyone to marvel's official ratings which have her as SMARTER then the Black Panther. You can say what you want, but it is the writers at Marvel that give the characters powers and those writers have placed her as more intelligent in the OFFICIAL ratings.
- Again, as any Marvel Comics fan should know, those ratings are mostly ridiculous.
- The Scarlet Witch has never shown intelligence on that level. The Black Panther is often compared with Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic. The Witch really can't say the same. She has also never actually shown any above average intelligence. The Black Panther has, being able to play an elaborate real-life chess game that only Iron Man could comprehend (see Enemy of The State II, Priest's run).
- You don't know who make the official ratings, and I seriously doubt it's "the writers", seeing as they often differ on opinion. One thing they've never shown to differ on though is Black Panther's level of intelligence, which is far greater.

24 hours prep time means she can land with an area of affect spell on the go. It does take concentration but the prep time affords her all the time she needs to prepare the spells. (And Clea is more powerful then Brother Voodoo)
She can prepare but she still needs to pull them off. As was shown in the Red Zone arc, area wide spells both take great concentration and cause quite a bit of fatigue. Besides that, I'll repeat: The Witch hardly ever uses area spells. It's not a normal strategy for her.

The Scarlet Witch is an active member of the Avengers who has had training by captain Amrica. She is only average maybe in your mind but she is about Olympic level where the comics are concernned. The Avengers are trainned extensively and have had people like Captain America to train them.
This is quite why simply untrue. She has never shown this kind of ability, and she is only capable of being olympic level in one area, whereas the Black Panther is olympic level in all areas. Even if she's as fast as him, he's stronger, more agile etc. Also, lastly, to become an olympic level athlete, one needs to train daily for years and years and for the express purpose of becoming that good. The Scarlet Witch has never been shown on that level.

Just for you to note he does not have time before the combat to come in and set up gas bombs hoping she will trip them. And essentially if they are around and given her powers there is more of a chance that he will trip himself up.
- I know he can't affect the area before the fight, but he'll have things ready. He's also smart enough to plant the traps once he is teleported in and direct her to those traps.
- It's also unlikely he'll trip himself up. Again, he's prepared for her powers.

The Black panther is not Batman which all these battles are being based on.
Of course he's not Batman. He's the Black Panther. I posted a link earlier to a feats thread. I suggest you read it, since you're sorely underestimating the Panther here. He has shown to be on the level of the vaunted prep-time Batman, and to even surpass it. That's kinda the Panther's schtick.

He was no longer on the team when she lead it but when he was she was still higher on the totem pole then he. Also, note that he quickly stopped spying on them when he became freinds with them. So really his spying was only at the start and not something he continued with.
Her "ranking on the totem pole" doesn't really factor into anything. He also never stopped spying at all. I don't know where you got that from, but it's quite untrue. It's exactly that spying and preparation that has allowed him to face such people as Iron Man.

His vibranium is not going to do any better.
That's only because Wanda directly affects Ultron's core. That's something that pertains to Ultron's make-up, not to anything concerning the Panther being able to withstand her magic blasts.

She did during Buseik's run. And no she is not at full potential but at full potential she can alter the whole Marvel universe so really even at her skill level the raw power at her disposal makes her one of the most powerful magic users of the Marvel universe.
Raw power only. She never did much with the magic, even during Busiek's run.

And because you do not, that is the final word. She was a leader of the Avengers......whether you like it or not.
Uhm, no. She was the second in command, for morale purposes. Captain America kept up the part of strategist and tactician, since that's what he was really really good at. The Witch has never shown to be a master tactician on the level of either Cap or the Panther. Again, at least back your arguments up by the comics.

Those wre Marvel's official ratings, not mine and not yours. They are what they are. (And I had to put up with them when people were throwing them in my face.) I let them speak for theselves. And Spiderman is not rated a three on the website.
Uhm, yes, he is. I could post a screenshot, but you can visit the site for yourself. He's rated a three. Also, as we've learned for years now, those ratings often contradict the comics, and the highest authority in this competition are the comics. If you can show me speed on the level of Spidey, feel free to do so, but you can't, so it's moot.

Actually the Black Panter was created from eating a heart shaped herb. And te "defeat" of Mephisto was Mephisto relinquishing his SOUL when he realised the woul was attached to the Black Panther "totem". The Black Panther trying a tactic like that would lose given he would no longer be in providence. And Achebe was very low level.
This is basic Black Panther history, my friend. Where do the herbs and rituals come from? The Black Panther tribe, which has dabbled extensively in magic, as has been shown time and time again. Also, Mephisto was beaten by the Panther thanks to a creative application of science. The encounter you're referring to was their second fight, which had a few external factors that you've left out. Achebe was actually quite powerful.

Lets put it this way, does having a conversation with a lawyer make you an expert on law. No it does not and a random converstaion which may have happenned over the years is not going to help T'Challa against the Scarlet Witch.
Except the Panther has fought alongside Voodoo many times, and has faced magic enemies both solo as well as with the Avengers.

They are both going to know each other. I will admit to that. But I do not think he knows more about her then she knows about him. Especially, how the hell does he understand how her powers work when the writers themselves do not seem to understand.
- You believe he won't know more about her, even though this essentially contradicts the comics? Y'know, the comics in which the Scarlet Witch never shows any interest in preparing for opponents outside of when it was necessary? The comics in which the Panther shows that he does do that? The man has a contigency for Galactus for crying out loud.
- The way her powers work are not that hard. She alters probabilities. If a certain event has a 40% chance of happening, she can alter that it has a 60 or 70% chance of happening. In really small things, she can up it to 100%, but that's rare.

The thing is she will blast at everything she deems a threat and that means he could get caught out at any moment.
Basically ignoring the Scarlet Witch's character?

Again, at the end of the day this is a battle of Science versus magic abetween 2 people who know each other perfectly and will know the place. The Black Panther has no defense against her magic but does have prep time. However, so does she and she was trained in magic by Agatha Harkness.
The Panther has defenses, and most importantly, he has the offensive capabilities to take her out. Things she has little to no defense against. If this is science vs magic, science wins.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Phaedrus45

07-09-2007, 10:44 PM

Hey Harlekin. I'll try and get a debate up in a couple days. Just to see if you notice the same thing, but I don't see really any times the two have actually been in the same comic. If you see different, let me know. I did read some appearances where Hellstrom did meet some of Marvels regular heroes, mainly Marvel Two-In-One with the Thing and Marvel Team-up with the Torch. Neither involved much fighting between the two. Thing did get possessed and was going to destroy Hellstrom, Hellstrom not wanting to hurt Thing also, but the idiot villian gave up his possession when he had a chance to kill Hellstrom. Basically, we have two different worlds.

Harlekin

07-10-2007, 03:43 AM

I'm going to try and get up a debate today, but I do concur with your findings. I haven't seen them in an issue together, and if they have been, it is most likely somewhere long before he became the ruler of Hell he is these days. So yeah, there's pretty much no history between them.

Ahura Mazda

07-10-2007, 04:01 AM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

Awesome. I've got the entire run.

Feel free to have a look yourself as well as that may go faster.

- Again, as any Marvel Comics fan should know, those ratings are mostly ridiculous.
- The Scarlet Witch has never shown intelligence on that level. The Black Panther is often compared with Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic. The Witch really can't say the same. She has also never actually shown any above average intelligence. The Black Panther has, being able to play an elaborate real-life chess game that only Iron Man could comprehend (see Enemy of The State II, Priest's run).
- You don't know who make the official ratings, and I seriously doubt it's "the writers", seeing as they often differ on opinion. One thing they've never shown to differ on though is Black Panther's level of intelligence, which is far greater.

I know those ratings are not the final saying but I am pointing them it because it is an indication of Marvel's intentions as to the character.

- She can prepare but she still needs to pull them off. As was shown in the Red Zone arc, area wide spells both take great concentration and cause quite a bit of fatigue. Besides that, I'll repeat: The Witch hardly ever uses area spells. It's not a normal strategy for her.

I never said that the AoE spells would be a matter of course just that she can do one devestating one that she has prepared beforehand just as she teleports in. This spell could render the Black Panther inoperable and may put an end to the combat right there. And the scarlet witch can recover from such a spell in a matter of minutes.

This is quite why simply untrue. She has never shown this kind of ability, and she is only capable of being olympic level in one area, whereas the Black Panther is olympic level in all areas. Even if she's as fast as him, he's stronger, more agile etc. Also, lastly, to become an olympic level athlete, one needs to train daily for years and years and for the express purpose of becoming that good. The Scarlet Witch has never been shown on that level.

Ok lets take this logically, you are part of a team that physically fights super-villains. You have Captain America to train you. Don't you think it is pssible that physically you will be quite fit?

- I know he can't affect the area before the fight, but he'll have things ready. He's also smart enough to plant the traps once he is teleported in and direct her to those traps.
- It's also unlikely he'll trip himself up. Again, he's prepared for her powers.

Setting up things takes time. He does not have super speed so do you really think he will have a couple hours in fight by himself to set up traps in which he will then have to lure the Scarlet Witch into. This is not to mention he has to carry all this into the combat area. He does not have a trunk with him.

Of course he's not Batman. He's the Black Panther. I posted a link earlier to a feats thread. I suggest you read it, since you're sorely underestimating the Panther here. He has shown to be on the level of the vaunted prep-time Batman, and to even surpass it. That's kinda the Panther's schtick.

I read those feats and it reminded me why I dislike this character as much as Batman. It is unrealistic within the reality of the comics (I know it sounds ridiculous as a statement but it does reflect my opinion of him. That said, prep time Batman generally had access to the terrain before the battle. And if not, was facing opponents that he could predict what they would do. The Black Panther cannot predict random probabilities not to mention random magic.

Her "ranking on the totem pole" doesn't really factor into anything. He also never stopped spying at all. I don't know where you got that from, but it's quite untrue. It's exactly that spying and preparation that has allowed him to face such people as Iron Man.

Show me in comic where he is still spying. I read on the mervel website that he stopped when the Avengers became his freinds.

And by the way, facing physical foes or foes who have powers based on science is nothing like facing an unpredictable foe whose powers are based on magic.

That's only because Wanda directly affects Ultron's core. That's something that pertains to Ultron's make-up, not to anything concerning the Panther being able to withstand her magic blasts.

My whole point is that power penetrates adamantium. it is likely it will penetrate Vibranium as well.

Raw power only. She never did much with the magic, even during Busiek's run.

She did cause sickness in people you know. And one thingh is there is a probability that the Black panther will get sick given his future self was. The scarlet Witch could cause that probability to become a certainty.

Uhm, no. She was the second in command, for morale purposes. Captain America kept up the part of strategist and tactician, since that's what he was really really good at. The Witch has never shown to be a master tactician on the level of either Cap or the Panther. Again, at least back your arguments up by the comics.

Read it again, for a short period of time she was the leader when CA was indisposed.

Wanda would eventually recover and become the leader of the West Coast Avengers, just as her estranged husband Vision arranged for the group's dissolution

When the West Coast branch of Avengers disbanded due to internal conflict in the overall team, several members formed a new team known as Force Works, and the Scarlet Witch was appointed leader.

With Iron Man severely injured, Thor preoccupied with his alter ego, and Captain America missing, the rest of the team appointed her as Deputy Leader, even though she had been considering leaving the Avengers. Wanda led the Avengers in the Captain's absence, focusing her energies on improving the morale and efficiency of the team. During this period, Wanda began using her powers in new ways, fighting diseases, healing wounds and even creating sickness in her enemies

The Scarlet WItch has been a leader of at least 3 teams.

Uhm, yes, he is. I could post a screenshot, but you can visit the site for yourself. He's rated a three. Also, as we've learned for years now, those ratings often contradict the comics, and the highest authority in this competition are the comics. If you can show me speed on the level of Spidey, feel free to do so, but you can't, so it's moot.

You are right he is. The ratings are what they are.

This is basic Black Panther history, my friend. Where do the herbs and rituals come from? The Black Panther tribe, which has dabbled extensively in magic, as has been shown time and time again. Also, Mephisto was beaten by the Panther thanks to a creative application of science. The encounter you're referring to was their second fight, which had a few external factors that you've left out. Achebe was actually quite powerful.

The Scarlet Witch is a master of the magic of chaos which is in itself unpredictable. You can not prepare for it using science.

And the tribe has but he has never done a spell or shown the proficiency to. And most of his fights against magic users were one because he was not completely alone and he was able to use all of his nations resources, meaning he did not have to carry them with him. It is not the case here.

Except the Panther has fought alongside Voodoo many times, and has faced magic enemies both solo as well as with the Avengers.

Solo.......that is a big word. most of the time he had allies or his nation backing him.

- You believe he won't know more about her, even though this essentially contradicts the comics? Y'know, the comics in which the Scarlet Witch never shows any interest in preparing for opponents outside of when it was necessary? The comics in which the Panther shows that he does do that? The man has a contigency for Galactus for crying out loud.
- The way her powers work are not that hard. She alters probabilities. If a certain event has a 40% chance of happening, she can alter that it has a 60 or 70% chance of happening. In really small things, she can up it to 100%, but that's rare.

Yes that is true he prepares for Galactus. Why the hell would he prepare for the Scralet Witch? It is not logical.

And exactly I know probabilities but their affect can be extremely random and therefore it is unpredictable. And if you cannot predict something you cannot prepare for it.

Basically ignoring the Scarlet Witch's character?

It does not ignore her character given she is in a fight for her life here.

The Panther has defenses, and most importantly, he has the offensive capabilities to take her out. Things she has little to no defense against. If this is science vs magic, science wins.

That is an overwhelming statement and no, science does not win againszt magic because it cannot inherently protect against it because it rarely follows any logical rules. Science is great when you know what the reaction to an action is. It is horrible when the same asction can cause a billion different reactions. A spell of hers can just as easily put him on fire, turn the vibranium to cotton, cause a brain anurism to burst, cause him to get stuck, or ven turn him into an animal (she turned longshot into one).

WINNER=SCARLET WITCH

Harlekin

07-11-2007, 04:57 AM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

I think we can close off some pieces of this debate by now, so I'll be short in my rebuttal in a few cases.

I never said that the AoE spells would be a matter of course just that she can do one devestating one that she has prepared beforehand just as she teleports in. This spell could render the Black Panther inoperable and may put an end to the combat right there. And the scarlet witch can recover from such a spell in a matter of minutes.
That's not really the Scarlet Witch's style and again I doubt its effectiveness.

Ok lets take this logically, you are part of a team that physically fights super-villains. You have Captain America to train you. Don't you think it is pssible that physically you will be quite fit?
Quite fit /= olympic level. The Avengers are definitely above average, but they don't approach olympic levels.

Setting up things takes time. He does not have super speed so do you really think he will have a couple hours in fight by himself to set up traps in which he will then have to lure the Scarlet Witch into. This is not to mention he has to carry all this into the combat area. He does not have a trunk with him.
- I do think he has quite a bit of time, since Providence is quite a large place, and SW won't be able to find him. The other way around does apply (Panther can track her quite easily with his Kimoyo card). Heck, he could use his Kimoyo card to tap into the Providence systems.
- It's not a lot he has to take with him. Sleeping gas etc. can easily be carried.

I read those feats and it reminded me why I dislike this character as much as Batman. It is unrealistic within the reality of the comics (I know it sounds ridiculous as a statement but it does reflect my opinion of him. That said, prep time Batman generally had access to the terrain before the battle. And if not, was facing opponents that he could predict what they would do. The Black Panther cannot predict random probabilities not to mention random magic.
- I'm sorry you hate BP, but those feats are canon, whether you like it or not, so you can't ignore them.
- And no, preperation time Bats doesn't always have access to the location, but he'll know the location in and out.
- But BP can predict SW's actions. He can't account for the probabilities, but he's smart enough to at least prepare for the fact that some parts of his plan won't work.

Show me in comic where he is still spying. I read on the mervel website that he stopped when the Avengers became his freinds.
It doesn't say that. It says: "He also joined the American-based Avengers to spy on them from within, but soon came to regard them as true friends and staunch allies." It doesn't say a word about not spying. Besides, if he didn't spy on them, he would've been unable to fight Iron Man the way he did in Enemy of the State II (and vice versa really, since Iron Man had an armour to deal with the Panther).

My whole point is that power penetrates adamantium. it is likely it will penetrate Vibranium as well.
It doesn't penetrate the adamantium. Ultron's core is practically visible, and her magic basically goes under the adamantium. That's how I recall it though. That's not every effective on vibranium. Then again, she still needs to be able to hit him, which she won't.

She did cause sickness in people you know. And one thingh is there is a probability that the Black panther will get sick given his future self was. The scarlet Witch could cause that probability to become a certainty.
Wow, didn't know the Witch was ruthless enough to give a dear friend a brain aneurysm. Besides that, he's shown the ability to go on even after suffering from that, and it hasn't been referenced in a good five years now or so.

Read it again, for a short period of time she was the leader when CA was indisposed.
In which she was focused on morale and efficiency. Not much of a tactics person.

The Scarlet WItch has been a leader of at least 3 teams.
All for a very short time, and during which she never really showed any tactical skills.

The Scarlet Witch is a master of the magic of chaos which is in itself unpredictable. You can not prepare for it using science.
You can't prepare for its effects, but you can prepare for the use of it. That means making sure she can't hit you.

And the tribe has but he has never done a spell or shown the proficiency to. And most of his fights against magic users were one because he was not completely alone and he was able to use all of his nations resources, meaning he did not have to carry them with him. It is not the case here.
"All of his nations' resources"? Not really. He did use his resources to beat Mephisto, but it's rarely that BP needs to take something extra into battle that he doesn't already have. Of course, if we really want to get into that, he can take along his magic armour and the ebony blade that he acquired in Hudlin's run.

Solo.......that is a big word. most of the time he had allies or his nation backing him.
Not really. Did you read Priest's run?

Yes that is true he prepares for Galactus. Why the hell would he prepare for the Scralet Witch? It is not logical.
The same reason he prepares for Iron Man. They could go rogue (as the Witch did). In that manner, he's really quite similar to Batman.

It does not ignore her character given she is in a fight for her life here.
It's not a fight for her life. They don't need to kill each other, so there's no need for this type of behaviour.

That is an overwhelming statement and no, science does not win againszt magic because it cannot inherently protect against it because it rarely follows any logical rules. Science is great when you know what the reaction to an action is. It is horrible when the same asction can cause a billion different reactions. A spell of hers can just as easily put him on fire, turn the vibranium to cotton, cause a brain anurism to burst, cause him to get stuck, or ven turn him into an animal (she turned longshot into one).
Magic is ultimately a form of science. It has precise rules and rituals. It has set effects 90% of the time. Now, her effects are not entirely unpredictable. When firing her hex bolts, she is aiming for a certain effect. She's going to affect one bit of probability, so really, there's not a billion different possibilities, since she does have some control over it.

I'm sorry, but the Scarlet Witch has simply met the end of the road here. She won't be able to prepare for BP like he will for her, and she won't able to deal with his physical and technological superiority. Although my opponent would gladly erase all BP feats that he doesn't like, they did happen. The Black Panther can and would beat the Scarlet Witch.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Ahura Mazda

07-11-2007, 09:14 AM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

I think we can close off some pieces of this debate by now, so I'll be short in my rebuttal in a few cases.

I appreciate that and will try to do the same thing.

That's not really the Scarlet Witch's style and again I doubt its effectiveness.

It is her style when faced with a tough opponent who can use stealth.

Quite fit /= olympic level. The Avengers are definitely above average, but they don't approach olympic levels.

That is true but exactly how fit she is really a unknown given what she has survived in the past.

- I do think he has quite a bit of time, since Providence is quite a large place, and SW won't be able to find him. The other way around does apply (Panther can track her quite easily with his Kimoyo card). Heck, he could use his Kimoyo card to tap into the Providence systems.
- It's not a lot he has to take with him. Sleeping gas etc. can easily be carried.

If he is in great pain because of one of her spells then really there is not much he will be able to do. Yes he can find her which means she can also find him. She has the Avenger's resources at hand.

- I'm sorry you hate BP, but those feats are canon, whether you like it or not, so you can't ignore them.
- And no, preperation time Bats doesn't always have access to the location, but he'll know the location in and out.
- But BP can predict SW's actions. He can't account for the probabilities, but he's smart enough to at least prepare for the fact that some parts of his plan won't work.

He cannot predict any of what the Scarlet Witch could do to him because her effects are as varied as transmutation, instant combustion, or even the ceiling falling on his head.

Though her powers resemble Telekinesis, her probability-altering powers are more than enough to allow her to transform energy around her into "energy bolts", or even to grant Wanda short flight capability.(Avengers #152) Although her hexes can cause objects to suddenly move or change course, they do not have the ability to "hold on" to objects as a telekinetic might. Ultimately, the hexes are not under the Witch's direct control, although she can influence the nature of their effects with great concentration and effort. This makes her one of the few Avengers that Ultron fears; his adamantium shell cannot repel her magic.

This is a small sample of her powers. She could cause equipment to fall down on him and imprison him, or a door to shut on his face. There is no way he can predict this for eveything surrounding him has the potential to cause him harm or hinder him.

It doesn't say that. It says: "He also joined the American-based Avengers to spy on them from within, but soon came to regard them as true friends and staunch allies." It doesn't say a word about not spying. Besides, if he didn't spy on them, he would've been unable to fight Iron Man the way he did in Enemy of the State II (and vice versa really, since Iron Man had an armour to deal with the Panther).

You are inferring that he continued to spy, I am inferring that he did not.

It doesn't penetrate the adamantium. Ultron's core is practically visible, and her magic basically goes under the adamantium. That's how I recall it though. That's not every effective on vibranium. Then again, she still needs to be able to hit him, which she won't.

I will repeat a sentence for you:

This makes her one of the few Avengers that Ultron fears; his adamantium shell cannot repel her magic.

Vibranium will not repel her magic either.

Wow, didn't know the Witch was ruthless enough to give a dear friend a brain aneurysm. Besides that, he's shown the ability to go on even after suffering from that, and it hasn't been referenced in a good five years now or so.

Since when was the Scarlet Witch a dear friend of the Black Panther? And you do realise that she could give him one which would make him unable to walk or even move his limbs given it has burst. And the aneurysm at first caused him illusions and bouts of insanity, which would throw his whole prep time out the window.

In which she was focused on morale and efficiency. Not much of a tactics person.

Being efficient is being effective without wasting time or effort or expense. Tactics are just one of the things it is necessary to implement for a team to be efficient.

All for a very short time, and during which she never really showed any tactical skills.

You are basing that on what? She is chosen to lead a team of the mightiest super heroes (not that I think they are the mightiest) but according to you she has no tactical skills so really what you are saying is the Avengers are a bunch of idots who choose someone who could not lead them in the field. It seems unlikely to me.

You can't prepare for its effects, but you can prepare for the use of it. That means making sure she can't hit you.

The thing is it can affect anything she aims it and there is no way he can outrun energy bolts.

"All of his nations' resources"? Not really. He did use his resources to beat Mephisto, but it's rarely that BP needs to take something extra into battle that he doesn't already have. Of course, if we really want to get into that, he can take along his magic armour and the ebony blade that he acquired in Hudlin's run.

You know he is not doing that. First off, I am not quite sure that he had the blade when the CoM started and second off he has used it I think once. The other items are not his ususal equipment and it would be strange that he used thim. And the magic armour would make him more vulnerable to every other type of attack which included equipment falling on him.

The same reason he prepares for Iron Man. They could go rogue (as the Witch did). In that manner, he's really quite similar to Batman.

Batman has a very dark mind whereas the Black Panther does not have the same psyche.

It's not a fight for her life. They don't need to kill each other, so there's no need for this type of behaviour.

For all she knows, it is.

Magic is ultimately a form of science. It has precise rules and rituals. It has set effects 90% of the time. Now, her effects are not entirely unpredictable. When firing her hex bolts, she is aiming for a certain effect. She's going to affect one bit of probability, so really, there's not a billion different possibilities, since she does have some control over it.

Yes she does aim for a certain affect but as he is not telepathic he has no idea what it could be. It could be to move a machine or to make it explode. How can he know? He is not in her mind.

I'm sorry, but the Scarlet Witch has simply met the end of the road here. She won't be able to prepare for BP like he will for her, and she won't able to deal with his physical and technological superiority. Although my opponent would gladly erase all BP feats that he doesn't like, they did happen. The Black Panther can and would beat the Scarlet Witch.

Yes they did using big resources and more then 24 hours prep time. The Scarlet Witch is a magic user with tremendous power and trainned by Agatha Harkness, the Black panther is an elite human with vibranium armour which offers no protection against magic. Not to mention, that you cannot prepare against random effects which could happen anywhere at anytime unless you can see in the future or read a persons mind, none of which the Black panther can do.

WINNER=Scarlet Witch

Phaedrus45

07-11-2007, 12:04 PM

Iron Man vs. Damien Hellstrom:

Great match-up, and even though I have my favorite, I have no idea how the voters will decide. Some points I want to make about this match, though:

One, knowledge of the other goes to Tony, in my opinion. Damien Hellstrom and Iron Man never fought, it would seem. The Defenders are broken up, so any access to information isn't available to Damien, especially considering he's ruling Hell right now. Meanwhile, The Defenders and Avengers met on a few occasions and members of the Defenders have been on the Avengers. Tony would have information on Damien Hellstrom in Avenger's database, especially considering Hellcat did have a brief appearance with the Avengers following her return from the dead.

Location has to side with Tony, too. Providence was around at the point this version of Iron Man is used, yet not around in Hellstrom's last appearance. (Obviously, we can't use Hellstrom's recent miniseries, which doesn't seem to coincide with his current state, anyway.) Even the bio of Providence shows that Tony would know about Providence and some of it's stuff, as shown here: "Used for processing waste, and presumably an energy supply, this device was shared with Tony Stark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man)." Tony will probably be able to access the security and any weapons that Providence has available.

So, from what I've shown above, Hellstrom's biggest two disadvantages in this match-up is knowledge, of which Tony will have quite a bit more than Damien.

Now, I want to point out two reasons I conceded the match of Damien vs. Tana Nile. I felt that Tana might be able to win the match; but, I knew two things went against her: knowledge and location. She didn't know who Damien was, and I thought because of this voters would already put her at a disadvantage. The location part is because it was populated. Damien would be more dangerous with his minions around him, and satanic worshippers would be around in Hell's Kitchen, in my opinion. This is not the case with either factor in this match. There is nobody around to help Damien in the least bit.

Now, it states Damien has magic powers; but, I haven't seen those much in the Essential Marvel Horror collection I panned through. Mostly, his powers came from his trident. I'm sure he's been upgraded, but I just can't think of him using strong magic, as Loki has, in the past. If he has, I would except my opponents examples.

Tony's flight helps him greatly. I'm not sure how much he'll use it, especially since he'll have access to Providence's defenses and capabilities. But, he can take flight if needed, and he has the power for an airborne assault if needed.

Mainly, Tony will come prepared. Damien Hellstrom will know of Iron Man, I'm sure. (I mean, who wouldn't, huh?) But, access to current information definitely lies in Tony's favor, especially with Damien in Hell currently.

Winner = Iron Man

Harlekin

07-11-2007, 07:29 PM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch
That is true but exactly how fit she is really a unknown given what she has survived in the past.w
Well, if one is to believe marveldirectory.com: "The Scarlet Witch possesses the normal human strength of a woman of her age, height, and build who engages in moderate regular exercise." That's a far cry from olympic level.

If he is in great pain because of one of her spells then really there is not much he will be able to do. Yes he can find her which means she can also find him. She has the Avenger's resources at hand.
Which Avengers resources are you talking about? Is she going to have a special Black Panther scanner? Besides the fact that BP can easily cloak himself from technological devices, he's the master of stealth. She's not going to be able to find him. This is an integral part of his character, I won't debate it further.

He cannot predict any of what the Scarlet Witch could do to him because her effects are as varied as transmutation, instant combustion, or even the ceiling falling on his head.
Varied but controlled. She's got control over what happens, and he'll know what types of attacks she'll be throwing at him (again, the in the odd scenario that she would even be able to see him).

There is no way he can predict this for eveything surrounding him has the potential to cause him harm or hinder him.
This is actually quite interesting, since it works the other way around. I don't know if you know about the Panther's Kimoyo card, but it has quite a few nifty attributes. One of those attributes is hacking into most known technologies. He'll need a few minutes, but then Providence is his.

You are inferring that he continued to spy, I am inferring that he did not.
Even though I've shown evidence to the contrary? If you still want to ignore this part of his character, feel free to do so, but it's really been the basis of his character since the beginning. Knowing the opponent (even allies) and preparing for them.

I will repeat a sentence for you:
Completely ignoring Ultron's special make-up. She worms her way into it, she doesn't blast through it. That's not the case with a fully clothed Panther. Even then, she won't get a chance to hit him.

Since when was the Scarlet Witch a dear friend of the Black Panther? And you do realise that she could give him one which would make him unable to walk or even move his limbs given it has burst. And the aneurysm at first caused him illusions and bouts of insanity, which would throw his whole prep time out the window.
- They're allies and friends. The "dear" was really to show that she has no reason to give him a brain aneurysm.
- I don't recall illusions, and although it made him act a little more reckless, Panther was struggling with all of this during Enemy of the State II, which hinged completely on the preparation part of his character. He was also quite succesful at that point in time.

Being efficient is being effective without wasting time or effort or expense. Tactics are just one of the things it is necessary to implement for a team to be efficient.
Has she shown or ever stated any tactical prowess? No. Good then. This has been stated for the Panther.

You are basing that on what? She is chosen to lead a team of the mightiest super heroes (not that I think they are the mightiest) but according to you she has no tactical skills so really what you are saying is the Avengers are a bunch of idots who choose someone who could not lead them in the field. It seems unlikely to me.
No, because again, the Witch was mostly a morale keeper. Great leaders are not necessarily the finest tactical minds (see: Storm of the X-Men). Or a simpler example is Superman. Traditionally, he leads the Justice League, but he's going to leave the planning to Batman or the Martian Manhunter.

The thing is it can affect anything she aims it and there is no way he can outrun energy bolts.
Why not, exactly? He's done it before.

You know he is not doing that. First off, I am not quite sure that he had the blade when the CoM started and second off he has used it I think once. The other items are not his ususal equipment and it would be strange that he used thim. And the magic armour would make him more vulnerable to every other type of attack which included equipment falling on him.
Why wouldn't he, exactly? He had the blade before he and Storm got hitched, and that's before/during Civil War. It's in his arsenal together with "a vast collection of magical artifacts" (wikipedia). And "not his usual equipment"? You'd be surprised by all the things the Panther takes with him into combat. He also showed the same manouverability in the magic armor, having to fight vampires.

Batman has a very dark mind whereas the Black Panther does not have the same psyche.
Correct. It's even darker. Seriously, read Priest's run on the book. You'd be surprised by how ****ed up in the head T'Challa really is. Preparation for any and everything is the Panther's schtick, no matter how much you would like to deny it.

For all she knows, it is.
Uhm, no. All she's told is that she has to defeat her opponent, the Black Panther. Characters are allowed to kill if that's in their nature, it's not in the Witch's nature, and she has no reason to use lethal moves.

Yes she does aim for a certain affect but as he is not telepathic he has no idea what it could be. It could be to move a machine or to make it explode. How can he know? He is not in her mind.
- Both things are easily defended against. Vibranium withstands a lot of impact.
- The Panther is a great intellect. He's usually already thinking twenty steps ahead. He knows the Witch and how she uses her powers. He knows she won't do anything too devastating.

Then again, this hinges all on the idea that she could even find the Panther, which I doubt. I've outlined T'Challa's mind enough here I think that by now people understand he's going to be prepared for this, and he'll make sure to be effective and quick. He can gain control of the location, and besides physical superiority, T'Challa is also quite a bit smarter than the Witch. She's outmatched here.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Ahura Mazda

07-12-2007, 04:13 AM

I am not going to even bother with a reply to the past statement because it is starting to get ridiculous so instead I am just going to conclude. One thing if he obtainned the blade during civil war it should not be allowed given that it was an ongoing story line when this competition started and it is not part of his ususal weaponry.

The Scarlet Witch was a leader of teams who has a power that is unpredictable in its nature.

The Black Panther is a peak human with a genius brain envoloped in vibranium.

He has no prediction powers and he cannot travel faster then the speed of light, therefore I would put forward he would not be able to outrun her blasts and the magical blasts would penetrate the vibranium as it penetrated Ultron's adamantium.

It is up to the voters to decide.

Winner - Scarlet Witch

Harlekin

07-12-2007, 06:13 AM

FINAL COMMENTS: Black Panther vs Scarlet Witch

He did not obtain the Ebony blade during the Civil War. As I noted, he got it before marrying Storm, and the wedding took place before and during Civil War. That might've been unclear though, I'll grant you that.

As to his ability to dodge her hex bolts: They aren't lightspeed. Otherwise, nobody would be able to evade them. Black Panther has shown great skill and speed in avoiding blasts from all kinds of opponents, and there's no reason to think that the Scarlet Witch's blasts are any faster.

I'd just like to point out that the Panther is superior both physically as well as mentally, that he has the advantages of preperation and location and that via both stealth and his normal defenses he should be able to deal with the Scarlet Witch without too much trouble.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Harlekin

07-13-2007, 05:08 AM

OPENING COMMENTS: Damion Hellstrom vs Iron Man

I've been dreading this debate since well... forever really. I'm at a crossroads, since I don't easily conceed (and I believe Hellstrom would defeat Iron Man anyway), but I feel kinda sucky with throwing up a debate on the last day. So I figure maybe we could do this without the rebuttals this time around, and just have our opening comments be enough for the voters. I certainly wouldn't mind a debating break (and knowing Phaed, I doubt he minds either). If he feels the need to rebuttle though, he is free to do so.

Let's outline the basics then. Iron Man will have some info on Damion, but not a lot, and certainly not about the scope of his powers. Beyond a using a simply scrying pool, it's highly doubtful that Hellstrom will be able to find any significant information. He's not really the type to prepare extensively as is, so I don't see preperation time affecting either of the two a lot.

Where Iron Man has an advantage is location, since he could arguably control some of its technology. Considering that's mostly defensive technology, I don't see it having much of an effect on the battle itself, although it does grant Iron Man some extra possibilities. This is why I feel it is necessary to recap Damien's powers:
Daimon possesses a Darksoul, the demonic counterpart to a human soul, which physically manifests itself in the inverted pentagram-shaped birthmark on his chest (inverted as a mark of Baphomet). He can project hellfire (a.k.a. soulfire), a fire-like mystic energy capable of causing excruciating pain within living beings through direct stimulation of a person's life force. Soulfire does not physically burn in the sense that true fire does, but it can be perceived by its target as heat if its wielder so wills it. In addition, Daimon can generate true fire. He can project soulfire or true fire through his fingertips. He can also use his powers to heal others from life-threatening injuries and ailments.
He can also teleport by passing through a portal to Hell and emerging back on Earth through another portal. He only utilized this power after his rebirth, and it initially seemed that he was required to use existing portals. Since becoming the Lord of Hell he has been seen to travel across the world to a number of spots, indicating that he may be able to open portals virtually anywhere.

Daimon has above normal intelligence and peak physical abilities (as the Son of Satan) to enhanced human physical abilities (as the Lord of Hell; presumably able to further enhanced by his magical powers).

In the past, Daimon was able to magically change into his demonic costume at will by extending the three middle fingers on each hand in the shape of a trident. He could, however, use his demonic powers without being in costume. Early on after discovering his powers, Daimon was transformed into the Son of Satan at nighttime, much like a werewolf, and his personality was markedly different as well. At that time he would have his wrists bound in a chain of ankhs to keep his Darksoul under control. This phase lasted only a very short time, after which Daimon merged with his Darksoul, and his transformations from that point on merely represented the change in costume.

Daimon once used his powers to travel through time to pre-Cataclysmic Atlantis. Since he did not travel through time more frequently, it was likely exceedingly difficult to accomplish.

Daimon is an expert in demonology, a highly experienced exorcist, and has extensive knowledge of the occult and various mystic rites.

He uses a trident composed of Netheranium, a "psychosensitive" metal found only in his father's realm of Hell, which allows him to focus his hellfire power, increase the magnitude of and the distance across which he can project it, and even fly via projecting a mystical jet of flame. This method of transportation requires great concentration, limiting his speed to 30 mph and his length of time of flight to 30 minutes.
It could also amplify and project other magical energies.
Since becoming the Lord of Hell, Daimon has proven able to create/summon/restore his trident at will.

He also uses a mystic chariot, drawn by a trio of demon-steeds, Amon, Hecate, and Set, for extended journeys. The horses are actually demons and are only kept in control by Daimon's command; left on their own, they will consume any human flesh that gets within their reach. The steeds remain in an extradimensional netherworld until summoned. Their maximum speed is unknown, but their magical powers would presumably allow them to cross any distance almost instantly. They can also travel to other dimensions.

As the Lord of Hell, Daimon's powers are exponentially amplified. He can form magical wards or shields, shatter many magical fields/shields, tear thoughts from the minds of others, slay most beings with a thought, and destroy even demons with a high-ranking in the infernal court. His powers are amplified by the number of people worshipping him, as well as the strength of their worship and presumably by the number of souls inhabiting his particular realm of Hell. One would also assume that his powers are greatest within his own realm of Hell.
Despite his great power, Hellstorm is not invulnerable. A bullet from the magically-empowered Breathing Gun left him lame in his left leg for a period of time. (Harl's note: suggesting that not much else can)

Hellstorm also possesses a number of magical artifacts, such as the Necromanteion (a magical scrying crystal) and the Grimorium Verum (an ancient arcane text).

The most important parts have been bolded. It's instrumental that you remember that this is not the Son of Satan from his days as a Defender. Since usurping his father's role, he's become incredibly powerful, to the point where only certain magical artifacts are capable of hurting him. I'd even suggest that maybe we should keep him out of the competition next time around.

Combined with all of this power is the utter ruthlessness with which he employs it. Iron Man is not a friend of his, and he'll have no problem going for the kill. Iron Man will surely put up a fight, but Hellstrom's amazing amount of power, combined with its versatility makes him a tough opponent to fight, especially someone like Iron Man. Damien's soulfire cuts directly to the soul, and especially someone like Tony Stark feels he has a lot to atone for. Beyond that, his shield will be able to withstand most of what Iron Man can throw of him, and he can protect himself not only via shields but also via portals that he's shown the ability to open wherever he wants.

Damion can match and exceed Iron Man's power. He's on par with the great sorcerers of the Marvel Universe, and if one thing has been shown consistently over the years of Iron Man's career is that he has a particularly hard time dealing with magic. Damion is pretty much demonic magic personified. The Lord of Hell... son of Satan.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/3039/damienhellstromwg8.jpg
WINNER=DAMION HELLSTROM

Phaedrus45

07-13-2007, 10:13 AM

Sure, I'm willing to let the opening debates suffice.

Phaedrus45

07-13-2007, 02:16 PM

Voting May Begin!!!

Phaedrus45

07-13-2007, 04:21 PM

*Black Panther - (After my round and looking at Scarlet Witch, I really think we tend to overrate her due to Bendis. Black Panther knows exactly what to expect, and he will know how to use the environment to his advantage.)

*Iron Man

Harlekin

07-13-2007, 04:55 PM

Damion Hellstrom
Black Panther

Darren Daring

07-15-2007, 04:12 AM

Black Panther
Iron Man.

POWdER-man

07-15-2007, 09:57 AM

Black Panther
Iron Man

Ahura Mazda

07-16-2007, 04:27 AM

The Scarlet Witch

Iron Man - if prep time works for others it will work for him.

kytrigger

07-16-2007, 10:44 AM

Panther

Iron Man

wiegeabo

07-16-2007, 01:28 PM

Black Panther
Iron Man (tough to decide. Damion has a ton of power, but Tony's fought powerhouses before. Good match, and I wish we could have had more debating on it)

Phaedrus45

07-16-2007, 06:25 PM

Results So Far:

Iron Man currently beating Damien Hellstrom 6-1

Black Panther currently beating Scarlet Witch 6-1

Midnight Ice

07-17-2007, 04:03 AM

Iron Man
Black Panther

JewishHobbit

07-17-2007, 05:12 PM

Iron Man
Black Panther

Phaedrus45

07-17-2007, 05:49 PM

Final Results:

Iron Man beat Damien Hellstrom 8-1

Black Panther beat Scarlet Witch 8-1

Phaedrus45

07-19-2007, 11:50 AM

BRACKET 1:

Iron Man (PHAEDRUS45) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Iron-man.jpg

VS.

BRACKET 2:

Black Panther (HARLEKIN) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Black-Panther.jpg

Phaedrus45

07-19-2007, 11:52 AM

LOCATION: STAMFORD (BEFORE CIVIL WAR)

Basically, any information you find about Stamford is fair to use. Remember, this location is populated; so, that might effect your battle somewhat.

Harlekin

07-19-2007, 11:52 AM

EDIT: In before debating could start...

Phaedrus45

07-19-2007, 11:55 AM

Debating May Begin!!!

Harlekin

07-19-2007, 11:57 AM

OPENING COMMENTS: Black Panther vs Iron Man

Interesting match. Very interesting match.

Gentle readers, you’re in for a long one.

I think the best thing to start off with is showing some scans from "Enemy of the State II", an arc that ran through Black Panther #41-45, written by Christopher Priest. It shows how the Panther and Iron Man are pretty much on an equal intellectual footing, although T'Challa does press his advantages here and there. In these scans, you'll find a Panther being able to handicap Iron Man not once but twice, all while taking control of Stark Enterprises and annexing an island near Canada.

- Strike one, Stark Enterprises’ security. (http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/523/blackpanther42p02de9.jpg)
- Secrets revealed. (http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/2245/blackpanther42p03xh6.jpg)
- Round one… (http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/1279/blackpanther42p20tq9.jpg)
- … with a Wolverine finisher. (http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/4493/blackpanther42p21fe0.jpg)
- “—that’s Panther’s superpower.” (http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/96/blackpanther43p03du6.jpg)
- Payback. (http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/8918/blackpanther43p04te1.jpg)
- Strike two, actually taking over Stark Enterprises. (http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/2921/blackpanther43p09gi9.jpg)
- “… with one phone call?” (http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/3287/blackpanther43p10vz3.jpg)
- “Congratulations T’Challa.” (http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5378/blackpanther43p11nl0.jpg)
- “—crap.” (http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3350/blackpanther43p12jb2.jpg)

Of course, it's all a ploy, and the Panther and Iron Man are not necessarily fighting. Thing is though, the Panther was still able to take control of Stark Enterprises and initiated all of it in the first place. As Iron Man himself admits, he was forced playing catch up all the while. These two men practically played a chess game with the world, but the advantage during that game was without a doubt the Panther's. As the White Wolf says: “He’s played you like a tune.”

- “In an hour, I will no longer have need of your company, Stark. Until that time, it is my company.” (http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8042/blackpanther44p06xv5.jpg)
- Recap. (http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/3091/blackpanther44p07kv5.jpg)
- More recap. (http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/7164/blackpanther44p08cr0.jpg)
- “For the first time since I’ve known you, I finally felt like I understood you.” (http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/4066/blackpanther44p09fy0.jpg)
- “—you are here because T’Challa wished it.” (http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8193/blackpanther44p10tu9.jpg)
- “You brought me down with gravel berries, for God’s sake!” (http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/7760/blackpanther44p13hm1.jpg)
- Mini-panthers beating on Iron Man. (http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/3233/blackpanther44p14lc6.jpg)
- “A message sent in the most secure way possible.” (http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/6963/blackpanther44p18ly1.jpg)

And even then, after all that, the Black Panther is still forced to fight Iron Man. Or at least, an Iron Man from 11 seconds into the future, intent on defeating the Panther. Thing is, even with an armour specifically suited to defeating the Panther, T’Challa again is shown to have the upper hand, both physically and intellectually. This is as much preparation time as it is thinking on the fly.

- Anti-Panther suit. (http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3849/blackpanther45p07jo4.jpg)
- Anti-Panther suit getting messed up. (http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1064/blackpanther45p08yi3.jpg)
- Bag of all transportable goodies. (http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8982/blackpanther45p09sk1.jpg)
- “…Balboa going to southpaw…” (http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/8846/blackpanther45p10sy2.jpg)
- Panther folds? (http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/1525/blackpanther45p11kr5.jpg)
- “Panther, buck naked, was still Panther—driven by his own demons—drilling peepholes in the fence between good and evil…” (http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/7341/blackpanther45p12zl3.jpg)

Of course, that’s when we find out it’s manipulation heaped onto manipulation. Who Iron Man is really fighting is a similar future version of the Panther, carrying out current day Panther’s plans, and T’Challa even shows enough cajones to do the one thing friends don’t do to friends. Making their heart stop.

- “Somewhere under all that cool is a mean streak. You’ve obviously been prepared to fight me for a long time.” (http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/9205/blackpanther45p14xq5.jpg)
- Battle over the White House. (http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/825/blackpanther45p15gw6.jpg)
- “—by doing something unforgivable.” (http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/825/blackpanther45p15gw6.jpg)

It all ends up pretty well in the end, but the Panther gets to tell Iron Man how it is. That its Iron Man’s arrogance that hinders him, that for every plan Iron Man had, the Panther had a better one and ultimately, although he doesn’t say it out loud, is that the Panther is superior to Iron Man.

- In which a broken friendship is mended. (http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/8391/blackpanther45p20yx0.jpg)

Now, we have spent a lot of time recapping a previous battle between Black Panther and Iron Man, a battle that is relevant to this one. As has been shown, the Black Panther knows just about everything about Iron Man, Iron Man knows just about everything on the Panther, and the Panther knows everything about what Iron Man knows about the Panther. I hope that sentence wasn’t too confusing.

I’m going to state some things in list format first:
- On a pure physical man to man basis, the Black Panther is superior to Iron Man.
- As has been shown: intellectually, the Panther also has an advantage.
- If the Panther doesn’t want to be seen, he won’t be seen, especially not in a populated area like Stamford. Lest we forget, the Panther is a veritable master of stealth, who has been trained in the jungles of Wakanda.
- Although Iron Man usually carries more technology with him, the Panther’s tech has shown to be superior. Beyond that, the Panther also has a bit more resources as well. While Iron Man has a company backing him up, the Panther’s got an entire country.
- The Panther has shown a much more ruthless side to himself than Iron Man. He’s stopped the man’s heart in order to beat him after all. Although both are without a doubt pragmatists, especially the Panther holds to the philosophy that the ends can justify the means. It’s not for nothing that he’s been compared to Magneto.
- Stamford is populated, hindering Iron Man a lot. He can’t go all out, giving the Panther a strategic advantage that should not be underestimated.

The Black Panther has the means, the skill and the advantage of location.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5460/blackpanthernt6.jpg
WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Phaedrus45

08-09-2007, 06:00 PM

Iron Man vs. Black Panther:

A great fight, because these two will know location and each other quite well, although I would venture that Tony can find out a bit more about Stamford than Black Panther. As of this battle, which both characters will be as current as you can get to pre-Civil War, Black Panther isn't exactly well-trusted; so, it's not necessarily true that these two share the same resources. Black Panther is very knowledgable; but, I doubt he knows about Tony's new Extremis armor.

There are a few factors that side this battle with Iron Man, IMO. They are 1) they have recently fought in the Black Panther series, although it wasn't very conclusive. What we did learn is that Tony is prepared an armor to battle certain aspects of Black Panther's vibranium technology:

Stealth Armor, Mk III
First Appearance: Black Panther vol. 3 #44
Similar to Stark's earlier Armor, the Mark III Stealth unit was also specifically designed to combat the Black Panther (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panther_%28comics%29)'s anti-metal vibranium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibranium#Antarctic_vibranium) claws -- it is composed entirely of advanced composite ceramics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic) and experimental bio-neural gel-pack circuitry, fused with a kevlar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevlar)-like polymer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer) and backed by optical fiber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_fiber) networks; all of which comes down to an armor which was invisible to electronic detection systems as well as the naked eye, even the Black Panther's. Although the development of Stark's new cloaking technology for the Mark 25 "S.K.I.N." armor probably rendered the Mark III unit's stealth technology obsolete, the Stealth armor is nevertheless an effective weapon against opponents such as the Black Panther and Magneto because of its plastic/ceramic design.

What helps is the previous encounter has alerted Stark as to changes in his armor design and use of it. One thing that Tony always does is make improvements where and when he needs to.

Now, even more important is that Tony has the new Extremis Armor. There is a more detailed explanation, but I'll give the lesser one for less reading:

After being critically injured during a battle with the Extremis-enhanced Mallen, Stark injects his nervous system with a modified techno-organic virus (the extremis process) that not only saves his life, but also fuses Stark's armor to his body. This allows him to store the inner layers of the Iron Man armor in the hollows of his bones as well as control it through direct brain impulses. Stark can control the layer of the armor underneath his skin and make it emerge from numerous exit points around his limbs as a gold-colored neural interface undersheath. While in this form, Stark can control the armor cyberpathically and suit up at any time, even if the armor is 100 miles away. Furthermore, the Extremis process has increased his body's recuperative and healing abilities. He is also able to remotely connect to external communications systems such as satellites, cellular phones, and computers throughout the world. Because the armor's operating system is now directly connected to Stark's nervous system, its response time has been significantly improved. Stark also has a 'spider-sense' which he gained by using information he garnered from the analysis of Spider-Man's neurophysiology by the 'Spider-Armor' Stark gave him and uses this to not only create his own 'spider-sense' but can also neutralise Spider-Man's and create 'false positives' in Spider-Man's spider-sense.

This is information that I do not see Black Panther being privy to. He won't know about Tony's "spider sense" or is ability to connect with external communications, enabling him to garner information as this fight goes on.

With the 24 hour prep, knowing his opponent extremely well, he'll make proper modifications as needed to Extremis and the Mach III armor. Plus, he'll have full detailed description of Stamford at a moments notice uploaded into it, making the location advantage on his side. Neither will hurt innocent lives, either.

Winner = Iron Man

Harlekin

08-09-2007, 11:33 PM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Iron Man
A great fight, because these two will know location and each other quite well, although I would venture that Tony can find out a bit more about Stamford than Black Panther. As of this battle, which both characters will be as current as you can get to pre-Civil War, Black Panther isn't exactly well-trusted; so, it's not necessarily true that these two share the same resources. Black Panther is very knowledgable; but, I doubt he knows about Tony's new Extremis armor.
- Considering the Panther's connections and his ability to hack into just about any info database on the planet at a moment's notice, I doubt Tony will find out more about Stamford than Panther will.
- Just before Civil War is one of the periods where T'Challa actually is trusted. Not only had he helped out the Avengers tremendously with the Red Zone plague, he was teaming up with heroes left and right, even helping in the New Orleans relief.

There are a few factors that side this battle with Iron Man, IMO. They are 1) they have recently fought in the Black Panther series, although it wasn't very conclusive. What we did learn is that Tony is prepared an armor to battle certain aspects of Black Panther's vibranium technology:
- "Recently" is, at least in real time, a few years ago.
- "Wasn't very conclusive"? Black Panther defeated Iron Man, as can be seen in my scans.
- What we also learned is that not only did T'Challa know of Tony's developments in this area, he was also able to counter them quite successfully. This is far from an advantage for Tony.

What helps is the previous encounter has alerted Stark as to changes in his armor design and use of it. One thing that Tony always does is make improvements where and when he needs to.
Just like T'Challa. I really hate to use the "preperation time beats all" argument, but it's been shown that the Panther is just that bit more prepared for Iron Man than the other way around. He'll find a way around these supposed improvements.

This is information that I do not see Black Panther being privy to. He won't know about Tony's "spider sense" or is ability to connect with external communications, enabling him to garner information as this fight goes on.
I'll agree that he won't know the finer things about Extremis, but he'll know Tony has undergone some kind of upgrade. Besides that, the spider-sense doesn't count, as that was implemented into his armour during Civil War.

With the 24 hour prep, knowing his opponent extremely well, he'll make proper modifications as needed to Extremis and the Mach III armor. Plus, he'll have full detailed description of Stamford at a moments notice uploaded into it, making the location advantage on his side. Neither will hurt innocent lives, either.
- The Panther knows Tony extremely well, if not better than the other way around.
- Panther will have the same description waiting for him in his Kimiyo card.
- While neither will hurt innocent lives, the location favours Panther's type of stealth operations, and he has been shown to be decidedly more ruthless than Iron Man. He will go the edge to defeat him.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Varient

08-09-2007, 11:43 PM

whoa.

too bad we don't do this in teams,....

Varient

08-10-2007, 12:36 AM

(Catching up on 6 months of matches while waiting for cold medicine to kick in.) Man - that Dragonman/Spiderman fight would've went the otherway if they were on the ground,.. Spidey would've just webbed him up in a big cocoon,.. not having to worry about the guy breathing,.. and I'm pretty sure the stuff was fireproof.

Harlekin

08-10-2007, 03:00 AM

Please post in the discussion thread and not in the actual match threads, Varient.

Phaedrus45

08-13-2007, 02:32 PM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Iron Man

- Considering the Panther's connections and his ability to hack into just about any info database on the planet at a moment's notice, I doubt Tony will find out more about Stamford than Panther will.
- Just before Civil War is one of the periods where T'Challa actually is trusted. Not only had he helped out the Avengers tremendously with the Red Zone plague, he was teaming up with heroes left and right, even helping in the New Orleans relief.

Except, the U.S. Government surely doesn't trust T'Challa. He might have connections, but when it comes to the U.S., Tony's connections are quite a bit higher.

- "Recently" is, at least in real time, a few years ago.
- "Wasn't very conclusive"? Black Panther defeated Iron Man, as can be seen in my scans.
- What we also learned is that not only did T'Challa know of Tony's developments in this area, he was also able to counter them quite successfully. This is far from an advantage for Tony.

Yes, I would say not conclusive for a few reasons. First, the comic was The Black Panther. If I knew Tony vs. T'Challa would happen in a Black Panther comic, you can bet your butt I would take my whole paycheck and say Tony was going to lose. Second, looking at your description and details of events, you see Wolverine helping T'Challa, you see a "future Black Panther" helping the current Black Panther. Third, Tony just finds out that Black Panther knows everything about his armor for the first battle, having an advantage at that time. Fourth, the battle won't be indoors, to boost Black Panther's advantage. And, finally, you see Tony not taking the defeating blow. He has Black Panther possibly beaten when in his stealth armor; yet, he stops to try and get T'Challa to listen to reason.

Just like T'Challa. I really hate to use the "preperation time beats all" argument, but it's been shown that the Panther is just that bit more prepared for Iron Man than the other way around. He'll find a way around these supposed improvements.

Well, "preparation time beats all" is just as bad as "hero's comic shows hero beating a villian or other hero more times than not" argument. We take what we get in this contest. T'Challa is at a disadvantage. He won't know about Tony's improvements, and Tony will take that last battle and learn from it. (And, he won't have to go close quarters, as both of those battles show, like Tony's a complete idiot. This is not a "time for talk," as the Black Panther comic showed. This is a time for battle, and Tony will be up for it.)

I'll agree that he won't know the finer things about Extremis, but he'll know Tony has undergone some kind of upgrade. Besides that, the spider-sense doesn't count, as that was implemented into his armour during Civil War.

I don't have the comics at hand, but The Other came before Civil War. And, Tony working on the armor and giving Spidey his armor was before that time, too. Tony had learned about Spidey and his new armor before the events of Civil War. It was my understanding that he had that already.

[quote]- The Panther knows Tony extremely well, if not better than the other way around.
- Panther will have the same description waiting for him in his Kimiyo card.
- While neither will hurt innocent lives, the location favours Panther's type of stealth operations, and he has been shown to be decidedly more ruthless than Iron Man. He will go the edge to defeat him.

Yes, but Tony knows stealth just as well. He can get into the various computers and electronic devices within Stamford. He won't make this a close quarter's battle, unless it seems like he can get the beat on T'Challa.

Winner = TOny Stark

Harlekin

08-13-2007, 03:02 PM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Iron Man
Except, the U.S. Government surely doesn't trust T'Challa. He might have connections, but when it comes to the U.S., Tony's connections are quite a bit higher.
Doesn't matter. Wakanda's resources not only outnumber those of the U.S.A.'s, the Panther has his own personal connection within the U.S. government, being a foreign diplomat. He's also shown that he can hack into just about anything, including U.S. files.

Yes, I would say not conclusive for a few reasons. First, the comic was The Black Panther. If I knew Tony vs. T'Challa would happen in a Black Panther comic, you can bet your butt I would take my whole paycheck and say Tony was going to lose.
- What's canon is canon. We always have to rely on accounts that are seemingly biased. That's the inevitable risk. Dismissing this defeat because it took place in BP's comic is ridiculous.

Second, looking at your description and details of events, you see Wolverine helping T'Challa, you see a "future Black Panther" helping the current Black Panther.
- And anyone reading the scans and my description will see that Wolverine's presence in the actual fight was irrelevant. He was useful for BP's greater plan, but when it came down to the fighting part, he didn't matter as much.
- The future Black Panther employed the exact same tactics Panther would've since oh yeah, he was following the Panther's plan. Then there's the final fight, which was all present day T'Challa.

Third, Tony just finds out that Black Panther knows everything about his armor for the first battle, having an advantage at that time. Fourth, the battle won't be indoors, to boost Black Panther's advantage. And, finally, you see Tony not taking the defeating blow. He has Black Panther possibly beaten when in his stealth armor; yet, he stops to try and get T'Challa to listen to reason.
- Exactly, showing just how unpredictable T'Challa can be.
- The battle doesn't need to be indoors. Let's make this simple: If Black Panther doesn't want Iron Man to find him, Iron Man isn't going to find him. Now, especially in a town where Iron Man will be forced to hold back, Panther has a serious advantage.
- I'm not sure we're reading the same fight here. He doesn't stop. He keeps beating on T'Challa while talking. Eventually, he stops when T'Challa plays possum. Of course, that's when T'Challa pulls out his trump card and makes Iron Man's heart stop.

Well, "preparation time beats all" is just as bad as "hero's comic shows hero beating a villian or other hero more times than not" argument. We take what we get in this contest.
Exactly, and pretty much all we have is the previously mentioned fight, in which, ultimately, T'Challa dominated Tony.

T'Challa is at a disadvantage. He won't know about Tony's improvements, and Tony will take that last battle and learn from it. (And, he won't have to go close quarters, as both of those battles show, like Tony's a complete idiot. This is not a "time for talk," as the Black Panther comic showed. This is a time for battle, and Tony will be up for it.)
- You've given nothing to show T'Challa is at a disadvantage here. As I mentioned in my open argument, T'Challa is more ruthless, stealthier and the populated area leaves Iron Man at a severe disadvantage.
- You've not shown why T'Challa would be in the dark about Tony's improvements. Everything before this has shown that T'Challa knows everything there is to know about Tony. Their last fight didn't change anything about that.
- Tony's not an idiot, and I never said that either. It's been shown though that T'Challa's been able to outsmart Tony on numerous occasions. As the White Wolf tells Tony: he's been played like a tune.

I don't have the comics at hand, but The Other came before Civil War. And, Tony working on the armor and giving Spidey his armor was before that time, too. Tony had learned about Spidey and his new armor before the events of Civil War. It was my understanding that he had that already.
- Spidey receives the armour shortly after the Other as I recall.
- Tony having a "spider-sense" is a direct result of what he learned from that armour, not before he actually gave him the armour.
- Besides that, the revelation that Tony has "spider-sense" is made during Civil War, thereby making it not usable, whether he actually had that ability before or not. Hey, they aren't my rules.

Yes, but Tony knows stealth just as well. He can get into the various computers and electronic devices within Stamford. He won't make this a close quarter's battle, unless it seems like he can get the beat on T'Challa.
The various computers and electronic devices constitute of simple library computers and the like. It's not going to be anything fancy that Tony can actually use to his advantage. Besides that, T'Challa isn't stupid, and he's also, as I've noted quite a bit more ruthless. If needed, he'll EMP Stamford, making sure Tony can't use anything.

Also, nobody knows stealth better than the Panther.

The Black Panther has every advantage in this match, as I've pointed out perhaps more clearly in my opening argument. He's got the knowledge, the skills and the location's an incredible advantage to him.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Phaedrus45

08-13-2007, 03:37 PM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Iron Man

Doesn't matter. Wakanda's resources not only outnumber those of the U.S.A.'s, the Panther has his own personal connection within the U.S. government, being a foreign diplomat. He's also shown that he can hack into just about anything, including U.S. files.

Being a foreign diplomat doesn't mean his personal connections are so strong as to gain him information. (Plus, personal connections won't help him when he cannot speak with anyone during prep time.) With what Tony learned about his previous trust in T'Challa being dashed, I would venture a guess that him and the government has at least taken some precautions to T'Challa's Nixon style tactics of the past.

what's canon is canon. We always have to rely on accounts that are seemingly biased. That's the inevitable risk. Dismissing this defeat because it took place in BP's comic is ridiculous.

I'm not dismissing it, because it is advantageous to me as it is to you. But, the outcome is pretty easy to figure, is what I'm saying. This outcome is decided by the voters, which is what I'm more concerned with.

- And anyone reading the scans and my description will see that Wolverine's presence in the actual fight was irrelevant. He was useful for BP's greater plan, but when it came down to the fighting part, he didn't matter as much.
- The future Black Panther employed the exact same tactics Panther would've since oh yeah, he was following the Panther's plan. Then there's the final fight, which was all present day T'Challa.

It's still not a one on one battle, as my point was. This is current Black Panther vs. current Iron Man, and whatever upgrades since this last battle and whatever information can be gained in the 24 hour preptime.

- Exactly, showing just how unpredictable T'Challa can be.
- The battle doesn't need to be indoors. Let's make this simple: If Black Panther doesn't want Iron Man to find him, Iron Man isn't going to find him. Now, especially in a town where Iron Man will be forced to hold back, Panther has a serious advantage.
- I'm not sure we're reading the same fight here. He doesn't stop. He keeps beating on T'Challa while talking. Eventually, he stops when T'Challa plays possum. Of course, that's when T'Challa pulls out his trump card and makes Iron Man's heart stop.

T'Challa won't be so unpredictable the second time. And, Black Panther can be found. I'm sure Tony will have technology in his armor to help him find a nail in a haystack, namely T'Challa in Stamford. And, T'Challa will be unaware that Tony has access to all things electronic in Stamford, due to Extremis upgrades.

Finally, he stop beating on T'Challa when he had the coil around "future T'Challa"'s throat. I see Tony doing quite a bit of talk. The time for talking is over. This is a straight battle, not about talk.

- You've given nothing to show T'Challa is at a disadvantage here. As I mentioned in my open argument, T'Challa is more ruthless, stealthier and the populated area leaves Iron Man at a severe disadvantage.
- You've not shown why T'Challa would be in the dark about Tony's improvements. Everything before this has shown that T'Challa knows everything there is to know about Tony. Their last fight didn't change anything about that.
- Tony's not an idiot, and I never said that either. It's been shown though that T'Challa's been able to outsmart Tony on numerous occasions. As the White Wolf tells Tony: he's been played like a tune.

I would say you've not shown how T'Challa would be aware of Tony's Extremis armor. At this time in Black Panther history, T'Challa is more concerned with find a wife than taking care of his own country's problems. Plus, as you've noted, T'Challa knew about previous Tony because he bugged Avenger's mansion, pulling a Nixon on the Avengers and U.S. government. Tony and the U.S. government might have an understanding of Black Panther and get along, but they will definitely adopt the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." Plus, you've just shown in one Black Panther storyarc that Tony was "played like a tune." It doesn't seem to be "numerous occasions."

- Spidey receives the armour shortly after the Other as I recall.
- Tony having a "spider-sense" is a direct result of what he learned from that armour, not before he actually gave him the armour.
- Besides that, the revelation that Tony has "spider-sense" is made during Civil War, thereby making it not usable, whether he actually had that ability before or not. Hey, they aren't my rules.

Well, he got the armor before Civil War, so he knows about Spidey's armor and everything it can do, that stands to reason. If the spider-sense came during Civil War, then it is unusable. But, everything Tony put in the Spidey armor is stuff he'd know about and be able to use if needed.

The various computers and electronic devices constitute of simple library computers and the like. It's not going to be anything fancy that Tony can actually use to his advantage. Besides that, T'Challa isn't stupid, and he's also, as I've noted quite a bit more ruthless. If needed, he'll EMP Stamford, making sure Tony can't use anything.

First, many things in Stamford are useful. Imagine having access to all the cameras around Stamford to detect someone. (Even in each of our towns, we have cameras on stoplights and buildings, easily accessable to Tony.) Plus, this is the Marvel Universe, and you never know what secrets a town in the Marvel Universe holds. (Plus, Tony's been ruthless and cold-hearted before, too. This isn't limited to T'Challa. These two are more alike than maybe many realize. Let's not forget the disagreements between Cap and Tony isn't anything new to those who've seen the events of Civil War play out. Directly, I think of Galactic Storm, where Tony even resorted to killing for an outcome he thought best.)

Also, nobody knows stealth better than the Panther.

Except, Tony Stark. (This more to point out that is strictly opinion and not based in fact at all.) Tony has used stealth many, many times in the past, just as often as the Black Panther.

The Black Panther has every advantage in this match, as I've pointed out perhaps more clearly in my opening argument. He's got the knowledge, the skills and the location's an incredible advantage to him.

That's a quote where I could exchange Iron Man with Black Panther's name. One example from a Black Panther comic does not prove anything. The proof will come from the voters. We both believe our character might win; and, I know if I had Black Panther and you had Iron Man, we'd both be on the other side of the fence. This is a great battle where the past is just as important as the current state of these two people.

Winner = Iron Man

Harlekin

08-13-2007, 04:43 PM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Iron Man
Being a foreign diplomat doesn't mean his personal connections are so strong as to gain him information. (Plus, personal connections won't help him when he cannot speak with anyone during prep time.) With what Tony learned about his previous trust in T'Challa being dashed, I would venture a guess that him and the government has at least taken some precautions to T'Challa's Nixon style tactics of the past.
Precautions, I have no doubt about that. Precautions that have proved ineffective in the past. It's not the first time the U.S. government has figured T'Challa too unpredictable. Heck, a rogue faction of government tried to take over Wakanda. The Panther has beaten their plans every time. If he wants information about Stamford he'll get it.

I'm not dismissing it, because it is advantageous to me as it is to you. But, the outcome is pretty easy to figure, is what I'm saying. This outcome is decided by the voters, which is what I'm more concerned with.
It's casting aspersions on a perfectly valid tool to discuss this match. Although I understand, I believe even the positioning of "it was in BP's own comic, so naturally he won" is irrelevant. The fight happened the way it did.

It's still not a one on one battle, as my point was. This is current Black Panther vs. current Iron Man, and whatever upgrades since this last battle and whatever information can be gained in the 24 hour preptime.
Not only is the majority of the battle with T'Challa himself, it also shows just how good he is at manipulating people, including Iron Man. Now, both BP and IM went through some changes since their last battle, but it's their last battle that forms the basis for not only their feats but their current strategy as well.

T'Challa won't be so unpredictable the second time. And, Black Panther can be found. I'm sure Tony will have technology in his armor to help him find a nail in a haystack, namely T'Challa in Stamford. And, T'Challa will be unaware that Tony has access to all things electronic in Stamford, due to Extremis upgrades.
If there's one thing to learn from Priest's run on the Black Panther title is that T'Challa, even to the people that know him best, is always unpredictable. Even the White Wolf, his adopted brother could not properly predict what T'Challa would do. It's been shown in the past that T'Challa can counteract just about any technology since Wakanda is #1 in the technology department. They're so far advanced that Panther can hack into satellites with the push of a button on a little card for crying out loud. Beyond this, the Panther has shown the ability to counteract the technologies of people like Reed Richards and Tony Stark before. I'd wager he has a good chance of staying undetected if he so wishes.

Finally, he stop beating on T'Challa when he had the coil around "future T'Challa"'s throat. I see Tony doing quite a bit of talk. The time for talking is over. This is a straight battle, not about talk.
Ah, you mean just at the start. Quite right on that. Even then, it changes little. T'Challa knows Tony. He knows he won't stop to talk. He's prepared for that. If anyone is about ending a fight as soon as possible, it's the Black Panther.

I would say you've not shown how T'Challa would be aware of Tony's Extremis armor. At this time in Black Panther history, T'Challa is more concerned with find a wife than taking care of his own country's problems.
As has been shown multiple times in the past, even when T'Challa seems to be preoccupied with other things, he's always busy with the collection of information. Heck, he's got numerous people working on tracking just about the entire globe. The people aren't a resource, but the info they've gathered is.

Plus, as you've noted, T'Challa knew about previous Tony because he bugged Avenger's mansion, pulling a Nixon on the Avengers and U.S. government. Tony and the U.S. government might have an understanding of Black Panther and get along, but they will definitely adopt the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." Plus, you've just shown in one Black Panther storyarc that Tony was "played like a tune." It doesn't seem to be "numerous occasions."
He outsmarted Tony numerous times during that arc, thus playing him like a tune. As for knowing about Tony's armours and such, that's not because of the Avengers mansion bugging. As Tony points out, his office wasn't bugged at all. T'Challa had found out in an entirely different manner. One still unknown to him. Like he says: "You've been prepared for this for a very long time." Likewise, he'll be prepared for this.

Well, he got the armor before Civil War, so he knows about Spidey's armor and everything it can do, that stands to reason. If the spider-sense came during Civil War, then it is unusable. But, everything Tony put in the Spidey armor is stuff he'd know about and be able to use if needed.
This is really irrelevant to our debate. Iron Man has no use of the spider-sense and what he knows of Spider-Man doesn't factor into this battle at all.

First, many things in Stamford are useful. Imagine having access to all the cameras around Stamford to detect someone. (Even in each of our towns, we have cameras on stoplights and buildings, easily accessable to Tony.)
- We don't know how many cameras there are in Stamford. It's a relatively small wholesome town. There's no hint of any extra security than what a normal town has. That relates to a few cameras pointed to important sights such as town hall, but nothing beyond that. Even then, Panther can cloak himself from cameras, and the area is still populated as well.

Plus, this is the Marvel Universe, and you never know what secrets a town in the Marvel Universe holds.
Irrelevant if you can't back this up with anything.

(Plus, Tony's been ruthless and cold-hearted before, too. This isn't limited to T'Challa. These two are more alike than maybe many realize. Let's not forget the disagreements between Cap and Tony isn't anything new to those who've seen the events of Civil War play out. Directly, I think of Galactic Storm, where Tony even resorted to killing for an outcome he thought best.)
That's not necessarily ruthless or cold-hearted. It's calculating. Just because you're capable of killing someone with intent does not make you ruthless. Especially not when it concerns an enemy. T'Challa on the other hand has shown that he is willing to sacrifice dear friends if need be for the greater good. He's also shown that more often than not, to him the ends justify the means. There's a reason Storm compared him to Magneto. T'Challa is ruthless in a manner entirely unlike Tony. I can't stress this one enough; he made Tony's heart stop.

Except, Tony Stark. (This more to point out that is strictly opinion and not based in fact at all.) Tony has used stealth many, many times in the past, just as often as the Black Panther.
No, never as often as the Black Panther. One of the Panther's primary traits is his stealth abilities. Iron Man is ultimately, a powerhouse. Someone who acts in the spotlight. Iron Man can be sneaky, and he can even be a little stealthy, but not on the level of the Panther. That's not just opinion, these are essential traits to both characters.

That's a quote where I could exchange Iron Man with Black Panther's name. One example from a Black Panther comic does not prove anything. The proof will come from the voters. We both believe our character might win; and, I know if I had Black Panther and you had Iron Man, we'd both be on the other side of the fence. This is a great battle where the past is just as important as the current state of these two people.
"One example"? It's pretty much an entire arc devoted to the dynamic between the Panther and Iron Man, one that Geoff Johns would later reference in his arc "Red Zone". If you've got scans, feats or issue numbers to back up your arguments, then I'm sorry but yes, this fight from the BP comic proves a lot, and it's the only proof the voters have.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Phaedrus45

08-13-2007, 05:55 PM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Iron Man

Precautions, I have no doubt about that. Precautions that have proved ineffective in the past. It's not the first time the U.S. government has figured T'Challa too unpredictable. Heck, a rogue faction of government tried to take over Wakanda. The Panther has beaten their plans every time. If he wants information about Stamford he'll get it.

Yes, he will have information about Stamford, that's never been in doubt. But, as I said before, Tony will have a bit more than him. (After all, as shown with Extremis, he can access the electronics and camera to gain further information.)

It's casting aspersions on a perfectly valid tool to discuss this match. Although I understand, I believe even the positioning of "it was in BP's own comic, so naturally he won" is irrelevant. The fight happened the way it did.

It's not casting aspersions, it's stating a pretty well-known fact that if Tony appeared in Black Panther or Black Panther appeared in Iron Man, that the person who is the star of the particular comic will come out on top. This battle will decide who has the upperhand in a very specific type of battle. Mainly, one on one who's best and strongest (or stealthest, or whatever). There isn't a big plot trying to be done. It's one on one, winner takes all....and, the Black Panther appearance was not one on one. Many players on all sides were playing for political reasons.

Not only is the majority of the battle with T'Challa himself, it also shows just how good he is at manipulating people, including Iron Man. Now, both BP and IM went through some changes since their last battle, but it's their last battle that forms the basis for not only their feats but their current strategy as well.

While stealth and knowing the other opponent is important, this battle isn't about manipulating people so much as throwing two contestants into a battle to decide who's the best of the best, in which the voters decide.

If there's one thing to learn from Priest's run on the Black Panther title is that T'Challa, even to the people that know him best, is always unpredictable. Even the White Wolf, his adopted brother could not properly predict what T'Challa would do. It's been shown in the past that T'Challa can counteract just about any technology since Wakanda is #1 in the technology department. They're so far advanced that Panther can hack into satellites with the push of a button on a little card for crying out loud. Beyond this, the Panther has shown the ability to counteract the technologies of people like Reed Richards and Tony Stark before. I'd wager he has a good chance of staying undetected if he so wishes.

Again, now Tony knows about Black Panther's stealing the knowledge of his previous armor. Times have changed, (as has Black Panther's current writer), and he's not going to be duped a second time. And, as noted, this is a different Tony Stark, especially with Extremis.

Ah, you mean just at the start. Quite right on that. Even then, it changes little. T'Challa knows Tony. He knows he won't stop to talk. He's prepared for that. If anyone is about ending a fight as soon as possible, it's the Black Panther.

That's my point. This battle is very different from what's happened previously. Priest's great run was all about politics and subterfuge and all that sneaky stuff. This is Hero vs. Hero, and who voters think would win.

As has been shown multiple times in the past, even when T'Challa seems to be preoccupied with other things, he's always busy with the collection of information. Heck, he's got numerous people working on tracking just about the entire globe. The people aren't a resource, but the info they've gathered is.

Yes, he does have people gathering intel. But, Tony Stark has been burned in the past. Now, he knows not to totally trust the Black Panther. (And, unlike T'Challa, Tony's gathering of data is done by himself, as noted he's created armors he believes can effectively take out heroes and villians alike. These two are very much alike in this regard.)

He outsmarted Tony numerous times during that arc, thus playing him like a tune. As for knowing about Tony's armours and such, that's not because of the Avengers mansion bugging. As Tony points out, his office wasn't bugged at all. T'Challa had found out in an entirely different manner. One still unknown to him. Like he says: "You've been prepared for this for a very long time." Likewise, he'll be prepared for this.

And, visa versa. By saying, "He's outsmarted Tony numerous times" is deceptive in the language; but, much more clear when it's pointed out to be in one story arc.

This is really irrelevant to our debate. Iron Man has no use of the spider-sense and what he knows of Spider-Man doesn't factor into this battle at all.

Where it's relevant is the fact that Tony also keeps track and gathers information in all that he does. He does it by himself, too. He takes new information and upgrades his files; thus, the Black Panther battle would have been upgraded further, and it's obvious that he won't be fooled a second time.

- We don't know how many cameras there are in Stamford. It's a relatively small wholesome town. There's no hint of any extra security than what a normal town has. That relates to a few cameras pointed to important sights such as town hall, but nothing beyond that. Even then, Panther can cloak himself from cameras, and the area is still populated as well.

To my knowledge, Stamford is at least as big as my town, and probably quite a bit bigger. I've know there is tons of survaliance available around me, from cameras on traffic light poles to outside businesses. Plus, Tony has studied the various heroes and villians. He'd have ways of probably detecting them if needed. (This is supposition, I'll point out, not fact.)

No, never as often as the Black Panther. One of the Panther's primary traits is his stealth abilities. Iron Man is ultimately, a powerhouse. Someone who acts in the spotlight. Iron Man can be sneaky, and he can even be a little stealthy, but not on the level of the Panther. That's not just opinion, these are essential traits to both characters.

I've read many, many Iron Man stories over the years, and a lot of them deal with his stealth. He's had whole storyarcs devoted to various stealth armor.

"One example"? It's pretty much an entire arc devoted to the dynamic between the Panther and Iron Man, one that Geoff Johns would later reference in his arc "Red Zone". If you've got scans, feats or issue numbers to back up your arguments, then I'm sorry but yes, this fight from the BP comic proves a lot, and it's the only proof the voters have.

It's one story arc, written in a Black Panther comic. It shows that Tony now knows he cannot fully trust T'Challa, that he would have learned that to keep his secrets that much more secret when it concerns which companies and such install wiring or anything else in his places of business. The comic proves much more than "T'Challa will beat Iron Man every time." It proves that both characters knowledge of the other, especially in terms of Tony Stark, would have greatly changed after that. It shows that the government would and should be a lot more warry of trust T'Challa and his government, and Tony would have, too.

Winner = Iron Man

Phaedrus45

08-13-2007, 05:56 PM

At this point, we'll probably go round and round; so, I more than likely won't have a rebuttal for the rebuttal. Good luck.

Harlekin

08-14-2007, 04:07 AM

REBUTTAL: Black Panther vs Iron Man
At this point, we'll probably go round and round; so, I more than likely won't have a rebuttal for the rebuttal. Good luck.
Good luck as well. And in spirit of this, I'll close off some areas of debate.

This battle will decide who has the upperhand in a very specific type of battle. Mainly, one on one who's best and strongest (or stealthest, or whatever). There isn't a big plot trying to be done. It's one on one, winner takes all....and, the Black Panther appearance was not one on one. Many players on all sides were playing for political reasons.
The final leg of their battle in the Black Panther title was one on one and Iron Man found himself losing. I'm not saying that guaranties he loses this time as well, but it's important to note that T'Challa's outsmarted Tony before.

Again, now Tony knows about Black Panther's stealing the knowledge of his previous armor. Times have changed, (as has Black Panther's current writer), and he's not going to be duped a second time. And, as noted, this is a different Tony Stark, especially with Extremis.
Except the fact that the Panther was able to dupe Iron Man multiple times (yes, during one arc) shows just that he somehow, you can't stop yourself from getting duped. The Panther is an incredibly unpredictable opponent, as such the whole defeating of Tony's armour with Dr. Clean.

Yes, he does have people gathering intel. But, Tony Stark has been burned in the past. Now, he knows not to totally trust the Black Panther. (And, unlike T'Challa, Tony's gathering of data is done by himself, as noted he's created armors he believes can effectively take out heroes and villians alike. These two are very much alike in this regard.)
It's not about trusting the Black Panther. It's about technological superiority. Black Panther has the technological advantage. Also, when I said that T'Challa has people gathering the info for him, that was not meant to imply he does not do it on its own either. After all, he spied on the Avengers for years. The use of extra people is a distinct advantage though. Tony Stark is just one man. T'Challa has all of Wakanda to back him up and to note again: Wakanda is far more advanced than the rest of the civilized world. The Avengers, including Iron Man, didn't trust the Panther ever since his admission that he spied on them but he was still able to hack their systems.

Where it's relevant is the fact that Tony also keeps track and gathers information in all that he does. He does it by himself, too. He takes new information and upgrades his files; thus, the Black Panther battle would have been upgraded further, and it's obvious that he won't be fooled a second time.
- Black Panther does it himself too. He just has people doing it for him as well. That comes in quite handy when you say... need to sleep. Iron Man doesn't have that advantage.
- Black Panther upgrades his files as well, including the data about Tony's armours and their previous battle. Given the precedent of that latest battle, where T'Challa was continuously one step ahead of Tony, it's fair to assume he's going to have a leg up here as well.

Plus, Tony has studied the various heroes and villians. He'd have ways of probably detecting them if needed. (This is supposition, I'll point out, not fact.)
And see, this is the fun part. Black Panther has done that too and has also figured ways to avoid them when needed. Who do you think triumphs in this area? The jungle king of a incredibly technologically advanced country or the CEO of a large corporation? It surprised Tony just how prepared T'Challa has been for everything.

I've read many, many Iron Man stories over the years, and a lot of them deal with his stealth. He's had whole storyarcs devoted to various stealth armor.
I certainly can't recall any, while just about every story arc with the Black Panther I've read has been devoted to his intellect, unpredictability and stealth.

The comic proves much more than "T'Challa will beat Iron Man every time."
I never said that. What it does prove is that T'Challa has numerous advantages over Tony, to very few disadvantages, giving him the natural edge for this battle.

WINNER=BLACK PANTHER

Phaedrus45

08-14-2007, 11:16 AM

Voting May Begin!!!

Harlekin

08-14-2007, 11:17 AM

Black Panther

Ahura Mazda

08-15-2007, 03:36 AM

This is a tough one. Iron man with his recent upgrades is very different then the Iron Man that faced BP in his own comic. I am to say the least a bit undecided, even after reading the debates. The one thing I wonder is whether the Black Panther could obtain the codes to shut down the armour but who am I kidding. Sorry guys the coin gives my vote to:

Iron Man

kytrigger

08-15-2007, 10:12 AM

Iron Man- Extremis is really the only thing that put it in his favor IMO. Both are utter badasses in practically the same fields, butthe mere fact that Panther IMO won their last confusing battle to me means that Tony woudl have worked night and day since then figuring a way to beat Panther, whereas Panther would have actually done more important thigns like rule his country and get it on with Storm.

Couple this with the fact that Tony now has teh Extremis crap in him, and I think it gives him the edge, if only slightly.

POWdER-man

08-15-2007, 12:33 PM

Iron Man

JewishHobbit

08-15-2007, 02:06 PM

Hmm, I'm gonna have to give my vote to Black Panther on this one. Close call though.

*edited to put the 'v' in give :)

wiegeabo

08-16-2007, 10:04 AM

Very tough call. But I'm going to give the slimmest of victories to...

The Blank Pather

Phaedrus45

08-16-2007, 06:36 PM

Iron Man

Phaedrus45

08-17-2007, 03:50 PM

Final Results:

Iron Man defeats Black Panther 4-3

Phaedrus45

08-20-2007, 11:43 AM

Phaedrus45

08-20-2007, 11:46 AM

LOCATION: STARK TOWER

Built over a period of four years, it is an example of modern architecture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_architecture). The top three floors were to be Stark's new home, but when the new Avengers were founded, he gave it to the team as a gift, to be their home when they needed it, and to be a meeting place and base of operations. Just like the Avengers Mansion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avengers_Mansion) Stark Tower is suited with state-of-the-art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-of-the-art) technology and an extravagant interior, including hanging portraits from former Avengers cover art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover_art).
When the team came together in this place, Edwin Jarvis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Jarvis) was welcomed back to his longtime position as caretaker for the team. In the wake of the passing of the Superhuman Registration Act, Stark Tower acted as the base of operations for the government task force led by Iron Man and charged with enforcing the Act.
At the conclusion of "World War Hulk" issue #1, a violent battle between The Hulk and Iron Man causes the destruction and collapse of Stark Tower.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stark_Tower#_note-0)

Watchtower

The place where it stands now was the former site of The Sentry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentry_%28Robert_Reynolds%29)'s Watchtower before he erased all the world's memory of him. When the Sentry recovered from his "mental virus", the Watchtower installed itself atop Stark Tower, convincing Tony Stark that it was fate that really brought them together.

Ahura Mazda

08-27-2007, 05:19 AM

FINAL FOUR,

Match 1:

Iron Man (PHAEDRUS45) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Iron-man.jpg

VS.

Pluto (AHURA MAZDA) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto_%28comics%29)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Pluto.jpg

Again Phaed and I face each other.

This time however there are a few differences. One is that the location will favor Iron man. The other is what type of information each will have on the other. Iron Man has never faced Pluto in the past. Any type of knowledge he would obtain would be third hand. Pluto faced the Avengers but Iron man was not on the team.

Pluto is a Death God who sits in a council made up of the other Death Gods (which surprisingly includes Mephisto). Pluto will know he is facing a robot type person and Stark will know he is facing the Olympian God of Death.

Now onto the powers:

Pluto possesses all of the conventional superhuman attributes of an Olympian. Pluto is superhumanly strong, considerably more so than the majority of the Olympians. Among his race, his strength is equaled only by Neptune and Ares and is exceeded only by Zeus and Hercules. Pluto's body is also virtually tireless, granting him almost limitless superhuman stamina equaled only by his nephews Ares and Hercules and by his brothers Neptune and Zeus. Pluto's body is highly resistant to all forms of physical injury.He has proven capable of withstanding powerful impact forces, temperature extremes, and powerful energy blasts all without sustaining injury.

However, it is possible to cause him injury, but he is capable of completely recovering with superhuman levels of speed. The speed and extent of his healing powers far exceeds that of most other Olympians. Like all other members of his race, Pluto is immortal in the sense that he is immune to the effects of aging. He hasn't aged since reaching adulthood and is also immune to all known diseases.

Pluto controls vast magical powers which he can use for numerous effects including generating powerful energy blasts, temporarily increasing his physical attributes, granting superhuman powers to other beings or objects, creating highly durable force fields, interdimensional teleportation, etc. As a Death God, Pluto has a pact with Death that allows him to claim the souls of any worshipper of the Greek Gods and take them to his Underworld as his servants. He is capable of draining the energy and lifeforce from those that he touches, skin to skin, with his hand, even other gods. The various Death Gods have their own alliance, though there is some internal competition as well, as seen when both Hela and Plu.to tried to claim the soul of Odin after his death.

Pluto also is in possession of a helmet that renders him invisible and undetectable, even to his fellow gods. He also owns several adamantine axes. These axes are nearly indestructible and Pluto can use these axes to channel his magical energies.

Although he typically prefers to use minions, Pluto is a formidable hand to hand combatant. He is particularly skilled in employing his energy manipulating capabilities during combat situations.

Here are a few of the things he had done in the comics:

Notably, in his second Thor appearance, he fought Thor in an alternate future on earth which is not in Hades, and he fought both him and Sif. Thor was able to survive but not defeat Pluto. Again they battled in Asgard when Pluto came to get Odin's body and he was in the process of defeating him (having used his touch to greatly weaken Thor making him unconscious) when the Norns shattered his axe using a spell from behind their well. Pluto still had the better of him until Odin awakenned, Hela having restored him and Pluto left.

In his first appearance, having tricked Hercules, Pluto was able to sheathe himself in mystic flame which made him impervious to harm. Thor was only able to save himself by controlling the weather and using Mjollnir to drain the mystic energies. he however was not able to defeat Pluto in hand to hand combat.

In both appearances Pluto had full access to his armies and was teleporting back and forth.

There is one bad appearance which I can only say was bad writing given it happenned in Hades and Ulik was bullying Pluto. Pluto did not do anything....I have no explanation for it except for very bad writing. Please note especially this appearance happenned in Hades where Pluto is supreme.

I am sure nobody really needs to hear what Iron Man's powers are.

Having got that out of the way I will move on to the battle proper. This will be a very interesting and tough one. Under normal circumstances I would say Iron Man would not stand a chance given he has no counter to Pluto's mystical powers and Pluto is a match for him physically. However, here is a match in the home of Tony Stark and that is an advantage for him but not as much as some may think. I say that because even when the battle of the Hulk and Iron Man went into his home, he had nothing to prevent Hulk from destroying it. Tony Stark is all science and does not have much of a counter against magical opponents.

Pluto does have an advantage that he can render himself invisible and undetectable.

Tony Stark will take this battle to Pluto and attempt to engage him physically. However he cannot detect Pluto (even Zeus cannot when he is wearing his helmet) and he cannot penetrate Pluto's mystical shield made of flames. Ton's armour is not impervious to Adamantium which is what Pluto's axe is made up of and he wil not be able to detect from which direction a blow or mystical blast may be coming from.

This will be a good battle and one where both combattants will be tested and the Stark Tower will suffer but Pluto will inexorably come out on top given Tony cannot summon Zeus to help him out.

Winner - Pluto

Phaedrus45

08-28-2007, 01:50 PM

IRON MAN vs. PLUTO:

Great battle, and one where Iron Man has a good chance of coming out victorious, especially considering he'll know a good amount of information about his foe...something Pluto's many other battle opponents haven't had. Plus, location totally favors Tony Stark.

Pluto:

Quote:
AbilitiesManipulation of magical energies,
Superhuman strength, stamina and durability,
Immortality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortality),
Regenerative healing factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healing_factor),
Energy-draining touch,
Ability to manipulate the spirits of the dead under his control,
Helmet grants Invisibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisibility).

Iron Man:

Most of us know about Tony, but here is something Pluto won't know about: Tony's Extremis Armor

Quote:
After being critically injured during a battle with the Extremis-enhanced Mallen, Stark injects his nervous system with a modified techno-organic virus (the extremis process) that not only saves his life, but also fuses Stark's armor to his body. This allows him to store the inner layers of the Iron Man armor in the hollows of his bones as well as control it through direct brain impulses. Stark can control the layer of the armor underneath his skin and make it emerge from numerous exit points around his limbs as a gold-colored neural interface undersheath. While in this form, Stark can control the armor cyberpathically and suit up at any time, even if the armor is 100 miles away. Furthermore, the Extremis process has increased his body's recuperative and healing abilities. He is also able to remotely connect to external communications systems such as satellites, cellular phones, and computers throughout the world. Because the armor's operating system is now directly connected to Stark's nervous system, its response time has been significantly improved.

Now, let's examine Pluto's history:

In Thor 127-130, we learn that Pluto is desperately trying to get out of his banishment in Hades by making Hercules sign a contract that will switch out rulers; thus, freeing Pluto from his own contract. A couple important quotes from those appearances:

"Fear not his strength -- he is forbidden to employ it."

This comes from his contract with Zeus and how he is forbidden from using his vast power outside of Hades.

"By signing the Olympian contract, your own strength has been all but sapped away."

Hercules looses his power upon signing the contract. His power is gone, because he, like Pluto, is probably bound to Hades.

In Thor 163-164, we learn that a mystical barrier is place upon Earth, and as Thor enters, he finds Pluto with many new minnions. Some interesting quotes:

"My first act was to return to Earth to rid myself of anything that may aid 20th century mankind to resist me."

This shows something which a reader will notice about Pluto's many appearances...he doesn't really fight someone of scientific means. And, it shows that Pluto obvious fears that as a way to combat him. Plus, in most all of Pluto's appearances, he uses his minions to fight for him. In this two issue story, Thor and Sif aren't so much battling Pluto as battling the mutants from the future that Pluto has taken over as his minnions.

Why was Pluto powerful on this future Earth? As the following quote says, "He who lies within those walls must now be Pluto's victim," he has brought a future Earth where all technology that could effect him away, along with all these minnions. Once the barrier was finally smashed, Pluto minnions were defeated by Thor, Sif, Balder, and the U.S. army.

Also, let's look at Pluto's spell raising abilities. He stands before Thor extremely powerful at one moment in his Stygian Flame...but, a quick thunderstorm of water dashes the flame with ease, and he isn't as powerful at that moment.

Now, we have the very funny appearance of Pluto in Thor 221-223. More proof that maybe Pluto isn't so powerful on Earth, as he falls off a building after fighting Thor, hits electricity and disappears. Hmmm...not so powerful sounding in that appearance, and the thoughts that there is something about Earth and technology that Pluto truly fears.

Fastforwarding to Thor 279, Pluto has another mad scheme, but this time he flees from Ulik, as he screams, "The Troll is insane with anger." He claims "There is naught to do but flee to the deepest recesses of my dark domain." Again, like with most of Pluto's appearances, he flees in defeat.

The infamous appearance in Avengers 282-283 has one of the most damning lines to show why Pluto isn't so powerful outside his Godly realm when he's away on Earth:

"There is no more he can do, once we were on the upper pathway! His power above is limited by a millennia-old covenent with Zeus."

In fact, that covenent still stands, for Zeus has said in more recent appearances that he will kill Pluto if he sets foot outside Hades again.

So, why else would Pluto not be as powerful on Earth as he is in the Godly realms he traverses? Looking at Thor Annual #10, we might have an idea. The Gods of the various underworlds are uniting for one Underworld where there powers will finally be stronger, for they say:

"None of us may long lay claim to the spirit of any person who did not, in their lifetime, believe in us."

Of course, there are no people really on Earth, let along New York where our location is, who really believes in the Greek Gods anymore. It would stand to reason that without someone believing in you, your Godly powers will be much less powerful.

So, three factors make Pluto less powerful and a lot more warry about fighting a battle on Earth: The Covenent by Zeus, the technology of Earth, and the extreme lack of believers in Greek Mythology.

In Thor Annual #19, we get some interesting quotes from Pluto:

"No God or mortal can harm Pluto in Hades -- to which I led you."

From the above quote, even Pluto says how he is much more powerful in Hades than elsewhere, giving further proof that his power diminishes when he leaves Hades.

"Mortals believe we Gods can see everything that occurs in the cosmos ... but tis not so."

Shows how perception is not reality in how powerful the Gods are made to be thought of. Pluto was trying to find Loki, but even he has limits to his powers.

Now, I want to point out that in the many battles between Thor and Pluto, there are many occurances that happen almost every time. Pluto uses his horde of minnions to do his bidding, which he will not have in this upcoming battle. Thor and Pluto go head to head many times, and Thor rarely ever gets beaten down by Pluto. (Once, in Thor 199-201, he got knocked unconscious...but, that's the only time I saw that happen. There were times that even the mighty Pluto got slapped down by Thor, too.) Finally, the one constant with Pluto is he's always running from the fight, although he does have people like Zeus or Odin interfer...but, he's never being dominate at those times. Thor stands up to him without much problem. It is in no way a one-sided battle.

Another interesting note is never in one of these appearances does Pluto use a helmet of invisibility. There is no way to really tell how it works, as we don't get to see it in any of the appearances noted that I have.

The battle is really beneficial to Iron Man. He will have complete access to all the technology in Stark Tower. He'll have all the information that Thor and the Avengers gave about Pluto, and that information should be pretty vast; after all, every member of the Avengers would let the database know about their most deadly enemies and what weaknesses they would have. Sadly, Pluto just won't have this information. With Tony's new armor, he will have access to all areas and technology in Stark Tower at all time. He can remain hidden if needed. He can use the Tower's defenses against a weakened Pluto.

This is just a bad luck-of-the-draw for Pluto in many regards. Most importantly, he finally faces an opponent who knows about him. He faces an opponent not only on an Earth of great technology, but one whose home base he is in and who has all means of using that technology to beat him. The location is free from anyone else...Pluto has not a single follower to help with the power of belief.

Winner = Iron Man

Phaedrus45

08-28-2007, 02:08 PM

Rebuttal: Iron Man vs. Pluto

Pluto is a Death God who sits in a council made up of the other Death Gods (which surprisingly includes Mephisto). Pluto will know he is facing a robot type person and Stark will know he is facing the Olympian God of Death.

I do not think Pluto will be able to garner information from the other Death Gods. He cannot talk to others, and talking to the Death God would be going beyond his boundries. It's most likely that Pluto won't know about Iron Man...although, the term, Iron Man, and the picture will be about the only clue.

Notably, in his second Thor appearance, he fought Thor in an alternate future on earth which is not in Hades, and he fought both him and Sif. Thor was able to survive but not defeat Pluto. Again they battled in Asgard when Pluto came to get Odin's body and he was in the process of defeating him (having used his touch to greatly weaken Thor making him unconscious) when the Norns shattered his axe using a spell from behind their well. Pluto still had the better of him until Odin awakenned, Hela having restored him and Pluto left.

As noted in my opening debate, Pluto created a "time funnel" which made Thor go to a future version of Earth, where Pluto not only controlled the various mutants, but he made sure "to rid (him)self of anything that may aid 20th Century mankind to resist" him. That won't happen this time. Plus, while Thor might not have defeated Pluto, neither did Pluto defeat Thor. They went head to head just fine. (Plus, the appearance by the Norns is in Pluto's third appearance, not this one. He wasn't in the process of defeating Thor on his Earthly appearance.

In his first appearance, having tricked Hercules, Pluto was able to sheathe himself in mystic flame which made him impervious to harm. Thor was only able to save himself by controlling the weather and using Mjollnir to drain the mystic energies. he however was not able to defeat Pluto in hand to hand combat.

This is a humorous appearance, because in one panel Pluto is proclaiming how invincible he is in his Stygian Flame, and the next panel he's all wet, not able to do a thing. This really hurts Pluto in how powerful he is suppose to be. If he came against Iron Man in his Stygian Flame, the Earthly technology would just turn on the sprinklers to defeat him. A very lame trick on Pluto's behalf.

In both appearances Pluto had full access to his armies and was teleporting back and forth.

And, that's a major factor. Pluto cannot teleport back and forth without forfeiting the contest, and he won't have his minnions.

There is one bad appearance which I can only say was bad writing given it happenned in Hades and Ulik was bullying Pluto. Pluto did not do anything....I have no explanation for it except for very bad writing. Please note especially this appearance happenned in Hades where Pluto is supreme.

Ah, but it's cannon. And, the many appearances where Thor is standing toe-to-toe against Pluto also is. Pluto has never really shown that he's vastly superior to Thor, as he claims. Thor is always willing to fight Pluto.

Having got that out of the way I will move on to the battle proper. This will be a very interesting and tough one. Under normal circumstances I would say Iron Man would not stand a chance given he has no counter to Pluto's mystical powers and Pluto is a match for him physically. However, here is a match in the home of Tony Stark and that is an advantage for him but not as much as some may think. I say that because even when the battle of the Hulk and Iron Man went into his home, he had nothing to prevent Hulk from destroying it. Tony Stark is all science and does not have much of a counter against magical opponents.

Actually, Tony Stark has faced being of mystical might many, many times, The Mandrin and Dr. Doom to name two. He has faced better, who aren't limited by being on Earth, too.

Pluto does have an advantage that he can render himself invisible and undetectable.

Again, I would love to see when he does this...I just never saw it. Plus, Stark Tower with it's "20th Century technology" would easily be able to notice him...it's probably why he doesn't like technology, where things like heat sensors and sprinklers can mean your downfall.

Tony Stark will take this battle to Pluto and attempt to engage him physically. However he cannot detect Pluto (even Zeus cannot when he is wearing his helmet) and he cannot penetrate Pluto's mystical shield made of flames. Ton's armour is not impervious to Adamantium which is what Pluto's axe is made up of and he wil not be able to detect from which direction a blow or mystical blast may be coming from.

Tony Stark is one who does not take a battle to someone without having to. Plus, Pluto doesn't like technology...Zeus doesn't have access to technology, so there is no proof as to what Pluto's supposed invisibility can do. Plus, proof would help as to what it can do.

The research has been done, there are quotes that back-up the claims about Pluto fearing technology. There are quotes that show Pluto isn't at his most powerful when on Earth, especially without his many minnions.

EDIT: Later this evening, I finally realized I left out one very important factor in this match-up: Iron Man doesn't even have to physically defeat Pluto. He just has to make it so for an extended period of time, Pluto will not be able to compete. Iron Man might very well have a possible trap figured out that will take Pluto out of the contest. For this reason, to engage Pluto in physical combat directly as soon as the battle horn sounds is ridiculous. The 24 hour prep time will have Tony Stark knowing the boundries of this contest and finding the best way in which to win. A nice trap would truly be the best solution to begin with.

Winner = Iron Man

Ahura Mazda

08-29-2007, 04:07 AM

IRON MAN vs. PLUTO: - Rebuttal

Great battle, and one where Iron Man has a good chance of coming out victorious, especially considering he'll know a good amount of information about his foe...something Pluto's many other battle opponents haven't had. Plus, location totally favors Tony Stark.

Pluto:

Quote:
AbilitiesManipulation of magical energies,
Superhuman strength, stamina and durability,
Immortality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immortality),
Regenerative healing factor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healing_factor),
Energy-draining touch,
Ability to manipulate the spirits of the dead under his control,
Helmet grants Invisibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisibility).

Iron Man:

Most of us know about Tony, but here is something Pluto won't know about: Tony's Extremis Armor

Quote:
After being critically injured during a battle with the Extremis-enhanced Mallen, Stark injects his nervous system with a modified techno-organic virus (the extremis process) that not only saves his life, but also fuses Stark's armor to his body. This allows him to store the inner layers of the Iron Man armor in the hollows of his bones as well as control it through direct brain impulses. Stark can control the layer of the armor underneath his skin and make it emerge from numerous exit points around his limbs as a gold-colored neural interface undersheath. While in this form, Stark can control the armor cyberpathically and suit up at any time, even if the armor is 100 miles away. Furthermore, the Extremis process has increased his body's recuperative and healing abilities. He is also able to remotely connect to external communications systems such as satellites, cellular phones, and computers throughout the world. Because the armor's operating system is now directly connected to Stark's nervous system, its response time has been significantly improved.

Now, let's examine Pluto's history:

In Thor 127-130, we learn that Pluto is desperately trying to get out of his banishment in Hades by making Hercules sign a contract that will switch out rulers; thus, freeing Pluto from his own contract. A couple important quotes from those appearances:

"Fear not his strength -- he is forbidden to employ it."

This comes from his contract with Zeus and how he is forbidden from using his vast power outside of Hades.

"By signing the Olympian contract, your own strength has been all but sapped away."

Hercules looses his power upon signing the contract. His power is gone, because he, like Pluto, is probably bound to Hades.

I have read this book and if you notice Pluto changes the sudio by what was magical means. He then tricks Hercules. The rest of the comic is in Hades.

In Thor 163-164, we learn that a mystical barrier is place upon Earth, and as Thor enters, he finds Pluto with many new minnions. Some interesting quotes:

"My first act was to return to Earth to rid myself of anything that may aid 20th century mankind to resist me."

This shows something which a reader will notice about Pluto's many appearances...he doesn't really fight someone of scientific means. And, it shows that Pluto obvious fears that as a way to combat him. Plus, in most all of Pluto's appearances, he uses his minions to fight for him. In this two issue story, Thor and Sif aren't so much battling Pluto as battling the mutants from the future that Pluto has taken over as his minnions.

Why was Pluto powerful on this future Earth? As the following quote says, "He who lies within those walls must now be Pluto's victim," he has brought a future Earth where all technology that could effect him away, along with all these minnions. Once the barrier was finally smashed, Pluto minnions were defeated by Thor, Sif, Balder, and the U.S. army.

Also, let's look at Pluto's spell raising abilities. He stands before Thor extremely powerful at one moment in his Stygian Flame...but, a quick thunderstorm of water dashes the flame with ease, and he isn't as powerful at that moment.

Now, we have the very funny appearance of Pluto in Thor 221-223. More proof that maybe Pluto isn't so powerful on Earth, as he falls off a building after fighting Thor, hits electricity and disappears. Hmmm...not so powerful sounding in that appearance, and the thoughts that there is something about Earth and technology that Pluto truly fears.

I have to say you have manipulated what actually happenned in the comic very well.

You seemed to have ignored the comic showing Thor lying at Pluto's feet with Pluto holding an axe above him. If the Norns had not destroyed the axe beyond the well Thor would have died which is what the said.

And it was not a mere shower that doused the flame but Thor using his full weather powers plus mjollnir's magical energy absorbing abilities.

And to go from that quote to stating Pluto fears 20th century technology is an enourmous leap. He was bringing an army to bear not fighting an individual battle. And the final defeat of Pluto came when Zeus was contacted.

Fastforwarding to Thor 279, Pluto has another mad scheme, but this time he flees from Ulik, as he screams, "The Troll is insane with anger." He claims "There is naught to do but flee to the deepest recesses of my dark domain." Again, like with most of Pluto's appearances, he flees in defeat.

This happenned in Hades and therefore can only be deemed to be bad writing given Pluto has proved a difficult opponent for Thor on Earth and Asgard.

The infamous appearance in Avengers 282-283 has one of the most damning lines to show why Pluto isn't so powerful outside his Godly realm when he's away on Earth:

"There is no more he can do, once we were on the upper pathway! His power above is limited by a millennia-old covenent with Zeus."

In fact, that covenent still stands, for Zeus has said in more recent appearances that he will kill Pluto if he sets foot outside Hades again.

That is all good but Zeus will not be making an appearance and as I have shown Pluto has had enough power to pose great difficulty to Thor up to the point where Thor was almost defeated.

So, why else would Pluto not be as powerful on Earth as he is in the Godly realms he traverses? Looking at Thor Annual #10, we might have an idea. The Gods of the various underworlds are uniting for one Underworld where there powers will finally be stronger, for they say:

"None of us may long lay claim to the spirit of any person who did not, in their lifetime, believe in us."

Of course, there are no people really on Earth, let along New York where our location is, who really believes in the Greek Gods anymore. It would stand to reason that without someone believing in you, your Godly powers will be much less powerful.

What does claiming a soul have to do with the power he has. By your logic all the gods are less powerfull then because there are less to worship them but surprisingly in the comics they are not. And Pluto is not the only God who is linked to worshippers whereas all the others are not. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have heard.

So, three factors make Pluto less powerful and a lot more warry about fighting a battle on Earth: The Covenent by Zeus, the technology of Earth, and the extreme lack of believers in Greek Mythology.

First off Zeus is still as apowerful as before and Ares has become even more powerful. Hercules is also just as powerful. So that third statement is completely wrong. The technology on earth does not reduce his power and nothing has shown that it has because the fights with Thor happenned with technology not affecting anyone's powers.

The convenant with Zeus is the only thing I would consider. There is one thing about that convenant and that is Zeus needs to enforce it and Pluto has attempted to go around Zeus and always at first he succeeds. But others go and make Zeus aware, however, here Zeus cannot make an appearance and Pluto will know that.

In Thor Annual #19, we get some interesting quotes from Pluto:

"No God or mortal can harm Pluto in Hades -- to which I led you."

From the above quote, even Pluto says how he is much more powerful in Hades than elsewhere, giving further proof that his power diminishes when he leaves Hades.

"Mortals believe we Gods can see everything that occurs in the cosmos ... but tis not so."

Shows how perception is not reality in how powerful the Gods are made to be thought of. Pluto was trying to find Loki, but even he has limits to his powers.

First off he is invulnerable in Hades per that statement, but he retains power enough to fight Thor when not in Hades. And second off, Pluto is not omniscient which is what he is saying. None of the Greek Gods are. Hmmm...maybe he is just saying that he is not the God or the Living Tribunal. I never claimed he was.

Now, I want to point out that in the many battles between Thor and Pluto, there are many occurances that happen almost every time. Pluto uses his horde of minnions to do his bidding, which he will not have in this upcoming battle. Thor and Pluto go head to head many times, and Thor rarely ever gets beaten down by Pluto. (Once, in Thor 199-201, he got knocked unconscious...but, that's the only time I saw that happen. There were times that even the mighty Pluto got slapped down by Thor, too.) Finally, the one constant with Pluto is he's always running from the fight, although he does have people like Zeus or Odin interfer...but, he's never being dominate at those times. Thor stands up to him without much problem. It is in no way a one-sided battle.

In a battle in Asgard, Pluto knocked Hades down and it was only when Odin was awakenned by Hela that Pluto left because there was no longer a sould to recuperate.

Another interesting note is never in one of these appearances does Pluto use a helmet of invisibility. There is no way to really tell how it works, as we don't get to see it in any of the appearances noted that I have.

Actually, he does use it up to the point where he creates a portal which hides himself from Zeus in his fight with the Defenders. Up to then he was completely undetectable to all.

The battle is really beneficial to Iron Man. He will have complete access to all the technology in Stark Tower. He'll have all the information that Thor and the Avengers gave about Pluto, and that information should be pretty vast; after all, every member of the Avengers would let the database know about their most deadly enemies and what weaknesses they would have. Sadly, Pluto just won't have this information. With Tony's new armor, he will have access to all areas and technology in Stark Tower at all time. He can remain hidden if needed. He can use the Tower's defenses against a weakened Pluto.

This is just a bad luck-of-the-draw for Pluto in many regards. Most importantly, he finally faces an opponent who knows about him. He faces an opponent not only on an Earth of great technology, but one whose home base he is in and who has all means of using that technology to beat him. The location is free from anyone else...Pluto has not a single follower to help with the power of belief.

Stark is incredibly lucky that the battle in the final four is on his home terrain but that does not give him an automatic win. Pluto is on par with Thor regarding power levels and when I state Thor I mean the one that appears in his own comics not the one that appeared in the Avengers. Iron Man is not at the same power level.

His information will tell him most off that the only way to defeat Pluto is to alert Zeus. That is the only way the Defenders (the top team of A listers) was able to defeat him. And the Avengers also only were allowed to escape when Zeus was told about Pluto's treachery.

I would like an example of a battle where pluto was defeated outside of Hades without Zeus or Odin making an appearance.

Winner = Pluto

Ahura Mazda

08-29-2007, 05:30 AM

Rebuttal: Iron Man vs. Pluto

I do not think Pluto will be able to garner information from the other Death Gods. He cannot talk to others, and talking to the Death God would be going beyond his boundries. It's most likely that Pluto won't know about Iron Man...although, the term, Iron Man, and the picture will be about the only clue.

I apologise because I put that statement to put his standing in the world not from where he could obtain information. The statement was misleading given i followed it up with what type of information he could obtain.

As noted in my opening debate, Pluto created a "time funnel" which made Thor go to a future version of Earth, where Pluto not only controlled the various mutants, but he made sure "to rid (him)self of anything that may aid 20th Century mankind to resist" him. That won't happen this time. Plus, while Thor might not have defeated Pluto, neither did Pluto defeat Thor. They went head to head just fine. (Plus, the appearance by the Norns is in Pluto's third appearance, not this one. He wasn't in the process of defeating Thor on his Earthly appearance.

It was more so he could control the mutants of future earth and avoid Zeus at the same time. And resisting does not mean defeating nor that your opponent greatly fears you. This was not Pluto personally invading; it was üPluto at teh head of an army that was not the most technologically advanced. Also when the barrier was done away with was Pluto hurt by 20th century technology. No he was not. That is a big hole in your argument.

This is a humorous appearance, because in one panel Pluto is proclaiming how invincible he is in his Stygian Flame, and the next panel he's all wet, not able to do a thing. This really hurts Pluto in how powerful he is suppose to be. If he came against Iron Man in his Stygian Flame, the Earthly technology would just turn on the sprinklers to defeat him. A very lame trick on Pluto's behalf.

Thor's powers are a bit above what a sprinkler system can do plus Thor also used Mjollnir's magical energy absorbing powers to defeat the shield of Pluto.

And, that's a major factor. Pluto cannot teleport back and forth without forfeiting the contest, and he won't have his minnions.

No but his power levels are quite high if he was able to.

Ah, but it's cannon. And, the many appearances where Thor is standing toe-to-toe against Pluto also is. Pluto has never really shown that he's vastly superior to Thor, as he claims. Thor is always willing to fight Pluto.

So is Hulk being strangled by a snake, the Black Panther holding the Silver Surfer in an arm lock, Thor forgetting he has weather powers, etc., etc.. Just note that that apearance happenned in Hades.

Actually, Tony Stark has faced being of mystical might many, many times, The Mandrin and Dr. Doom to name two. He has faced better, who aren't limited by being on Earth, too.

The Mandirin has no mystical powers. He had access to a very advanced technology which he was able to use create his rings which gives him his powers.

Iron Man faced Doom as part of a team not one on one.

Again, I would love to see when he does this...I just never saw it. Plus, Stark Tower with it's "20th Century technology" would easily be able to notice him...it's probably why he doesn't like technology, where things like heat sensors and sprinklers can mean your downfall.

And his hilmet renders him undetectable to sensors as well. It magically eliminates all sign of him which why for example he all of a sudden appeared against the Defenders. the reason why do not see him wear it in the comics often is because there would not be much of a comic if he was. His invisibility includes undetectability.

Tony Stark is one who does not take a battle to someone without having to. Plus, Pluto doesn't like technology...Zeus doesn't have access to technology, so there is no proof as to what Pluto's supposed invisibility can do. Plus, proof would help as to what it can do.

The research has been done, there are quotes that back-up the claims about Pluto fearing technology. There are quotes that show Pluto isn't at his most powerful when on Earth, especially without his many minnions.

Your quotes seem to take quite a bit out of context and manipulate the truth quite well. He does not fear 20th century technology as you claim.

I would not mind if the scans of the comics were posted here.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/18/Hades2.png

EDIT: Later this evening, I finally realized I left out one very important factor in this match-up: Iron Man doesn't even have to physically defeat Pluto. He just has to make it so for an extended period of time, Pluto will not be able to compete. Iron Man might very well have a possible trap figured out that will take Pluto out of the contest. For this reason, to engage Pluto in physical combat directly as soon as the battle horn sounds is ridiculous. The 24 hour prep time will have Tony Stark knowing the boundries of this contest and finding the best way in which to win. A nice trap would truly be the best solution to begin with.

This is what I expected. First off, Pluto will be magically undetectable to Iron Man and the Stark Tower and second he can teleport from anywhere within the Stark Tower so really imprisonment is not an option.

Winner = Pluto

Phaedrus45

08-29-2007, 10:35 AM

IRON MAN vs. PLUTO: - Rebuttal

I have to say you have manipulated what actually happenned in the comic very well.

You seemed to have ignored the comic showing Thor lying at Pluto's feet with Pluto holding an axe above him. If the Norns had not destroyed the axe beyond the well Thor would have died which is what the said.

Actually, I haven't manipulated those events. What you are talking about is from Thor 199-201. The thing with Thor is that in his many fights with Pluto, it's the one time he's really on his back about to be defeated. But, Thor is different from Iron Man, especially when you look at all of his battles with Pluto. It's all hand to hand combat, something that Pluto will not be getting with Iron Man. Plus, there are several instances where Pluto is laying on his back, too, when fighting Thor.

And it was not a mere shower that doused the flame but Thor using his full weather powers plus mjollnir's magical energy absorbing abilities.

It was water that doused his flames. There wasn't anything magical about the water...it was just water from a storm, and the waters from a sprinkler system would have the same effect.

And to go from that quote to stating Pluto fears 20th century technology is an enourmous leap. He was bringing an army to bear not fighting an individual battle. And the final defeat of Pluto came when Zeus was contacted.

Pluto does fear 20th Century technology...it's in his own words. This time I'm not quoting Thor or another source...that quote is directly from the man himself. And, when the barrier gets broken down and the mutates attack, the U.S. military and the Asgardians seem to be holding their own very nicely. Pluto is not totally dominating anything in that battle.

This happenned in Hades and therefore can only be deemed to be bad writing given Pluto has proved a difficult opponent for Thor on Earth and Asgard.

But, it happened. It's cannon, as we've heard before.

That is all good but Zeus will not be making an appearance and as I have shown Pluto has had enough power to pose great difficulty to Thor up to the point where Thor was almost defeated.

You will notice that in all of Pluto's battles, he hasn't fought a foe like Iron Man. Pluto generally handles people who are hand-to-hand combat. Tony Stark will be coming at Pluto with skills and technology he's never faced before.

What does claiming a soul have to do with the power he has. By your logic all the gods are less powerfull then because there are less to worship them but surprisingly in the comics they are not. And Pluto is not the only God who is linked to worshippers whereas all the others are not. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have heard.

Many of the Hellish characters in Marvel comics are not served well by appearing outside there realm. It's why "the gig was up" for me last round with Belasco...my secret had been learned, which is he really shouldn't be outside his realm. (You might have noticed I didn't really debate that match, as I knew he didn't stand a chance.) Pluto, as has been shown, is going to be more powerful in a realm that believes in him and inwhich he is shown to have vast power. He even states that in Hades, he's invincible, meaning outside of it he wouldn't be. This just links the two together for a greater understanding of why he might not be so powerful outside his realm. After all, if a God isn't believed in anymore, is he really a God?

First off Zeus is still as apowerful as before and Ares has become even more powerful. Hercules is also just as powerful. So that third statement is completely wrong. The technology on earth does not reduce his power and nothing has shown that it has because the fights with Thor happenned with technology not affecting anyone's powers.

I stand by it. Technology does reduce his power, as is shown when he fell off the roof, hitting into electrical technology, making him disappear. Iron Man has a ton of electricity to work with, and will probably be using it on him. Nobody forced Pluto to flee in that comic. Plus, while Hercules and Thor might be just as powerful, we are talking about a character whose admitted in his own words that he's more powerful in Hades than elsewhere. Plus, we have the additional quote by Thor. Something about being in the underworld being linked with their kingdoms are different from the likes of Hercules or Thor.

Stark is incredibly lucky that the battle in the final four is on his home terrain but that does not give him an automatic win. Pluto is on par with Thor regarding power levels and when I state Thor I mean the one that appears in his own comics not the one that appeared in the Avengers. Iron Man is not at the same power level.

Actually, that's debatable. Thor's power levels are much different from Tony Starks. And, fighting style is quite a bit different, too. If this was Thor vs. Pluto, you'd very likely have a one on one fight in close quarters. But, this is Iron Man, who has direct access to everything within Stark Tower at his disposal. He will know he doesn't have to beat Pluto down, just trap him for a certain amount of time or incapacitate him. As I've said, Pluto is not used to dealing with a person relying on technology...but, Tony is used to dealing with Gods and people of mystical means. We know that Tony prepares for battles ahead of time. I'm sure he even has a plan to take out Thor if need be. He'll be prepared for someone like Pluto.

His information will tell him most off that the only way to defeat Pluto is to alert Zeus. That is the only way the Defenders (the top team of A listers) was able to defeat him. And the Avengers also only were allowed to escape when Zeus was told about Pluto's treachery.

I would like an example of a battle where pluto was defeated outside of Hades without Zeus or Odin making an appearance.

Falling off the roof, hitting into electricity, and then disappearing right away. Running from Ulik, too, would be an example.

The fact remains that Pluto hasn't fought anyone with the technological means of Tony Stark. The opposite cannot be said about Iron Man; he has faced both supposed Gods and magical users. If there is one person who would have the means to defeat Pluto, I'd place my money on Stark.

Winner = Iron Man

Phaedrus45

08-29-2007, 11:08 AM

It was more so he could control the mutants of future earth and avoid Zeus at the same time. And resisting does not mean defeating nor that your opponent greatly fears you. This was not Pluto personally invading; it was üPluto at teh head of an army that was not the most technologically advanced. Also when the barrier was done away with was Pluto hurt by 20th century technology. No he was not. That is a big hole in your argument.

Yet, Pluto and his vast minnions aren't advancing their power position in that battle anymore than the U.S. Army and the three Asgardians. If you read the issue (and, many of the Thor/Pluto battles) they seem much more like stalemates than Pluto winning. Even Thor knocks down Pluto a few times (and, like an idiot, he decides to talk instead of taking any kind of advantage...Thor is one verbose MFer!)

Thor's powers are a bit above what a sprinkler system can do plus Thor also used Mjollnir's magical energy absorbing powers to defeat the shield of Pluto.

Again, the water is not portrayed as being mystical in nature in any way or form. He's doused by simple water from a storm, which is probably the crappiest defeat of a magical power I've ever seen. I admit it's crappy writing...but, it's cannon. I'm going to use it to my advantage. Also, all the mentions of Pluto's power isn't like going up against Tony Stark, the master of technology.

The Mandirin has no mystical powers. He had access to a very advanced technology which he was able to use create his rings which gives him his powers.

Iron Man faced Doom as part of a team not one on one.

When I did a magic search on Mandarin, I got "magic rings." Doing further research, it seemed that site deeming Mandarin's rings as magic is incorrect. However, Iron Man has faced Doom one on one on more than one occasion. In fact, they even made a special trade paperback a year ago reprinting their many battles:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/42949297858.1.gif (http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=42949297858%201)

I also want to point out that Iron Man's knowledge of mystical powers are so good that he took a mystical Asgardian crystal that Thor have him and used it in making his ThorBuster Armor.

Plus, Iron Man has been fighting side by side with magic users, like Dr. Strange and Scarlet Witch. We know he's made armor against the likes of Hulk, Black Panther, and Thor...it stands to reason he's delved into the thoughts of magic users, too.

And his hilmet renders him undetectable to sensors as well. It magically eliminates all sign of him which why for example he all of a sudden appeared against the Defenders. the reason why do not see him wear it in the comics often is because there would not be much of a comic if he was. His invisibility includes undetectability.

But, technology is where Pluto is susceptable. A foot on the floor of Stark Tower is going to be noticed. Pluto's magic is not designed to go against technology that Stark would have, and it's evident in Pluto's own words, realizing that "20th Century Technology" can make others immune to his powers.

I would not mind if the scans of the comics were posted here.

I don't have the means to scan comics, otherwise I gladly would. Again, I quote my sources, and Pluto's own words damn him.

This is what I expected. First off, Pluto will be magically undetectable to Iron Man and the Stark Tower and second he can teleport from anywhere within the Stark Tower so really imprisonment is not an option.

Again, we know that Pluto doesn't like Earthly technology, because Mythical Lore does not account for Scientific Reasoning. The Gods of yesterday didn't make these mystical weapons having to think about future technology which would make them ineffective. Remember, Pluto's weapons were made in a day long, long ago, a time more effective against the likes of Conan than Iron Man.

Winner = Iron Man

Ahura Mazda

08-30-2007, 05:18 AM

Actually, I haven't manipulated those events. What you are talking about is from Thor 199-201. The thing with Thor is that in his many fights with Pluto, it's the one time he's really on his back about to be defeated. But, Thor is different from Iron Man, especially when you look at all of his battles with Pluto. It's all hand to hand combat, something that Pluto will not be getting with Iron Man. Plus, there are several instances where Pluto is laying on his back, too, when fighting Thor.

The reason why I say you manipulated is that if you look at the comic again the mutates are defeating the army who were incapable of hurting them. Balder and Sif were however helping and able to do some damage.

The fight then became a fight between Pluto and Thor. In the final page of that sequence, they are battling hand to hand when Pluto states with one stygian spell that he can put an end to Thor. Just before he does Zeus appears and states that he will first have to answer him.

Now, I have no idea where from where you thought Pluto was afraid of 20th century technology whereas the technology he brought over was far superiour.

It was water that doused his flames. There wasn't anything magical about the water...it was just water from a storm, and the waters from a sprinkler system would have the same effect.

All I am saying it was a downpour that Thor caused and it was pretty crappy writing.

Pluto does fear 20th Century technology...it's in his own words. This time I'm not quoting Thor or another source...that quote is directly from the man himself. And, when the barrier gets broken down and the mutates attack, the U.S. military and the Asgardians seem to be holding their own very nicely. Pluto is not totally dominating anything in that battle.

This is where I completely disagree with you. I feel we did not read the same comic. I read the comic last night and the mutates were winning the battle with technology beyond what the army had including ray guns that were melting buildings. Plus the bullets of the army were not harming the mutates. The only ones really doing damage were Sif and Balder.

You will notice that in all of Pluto's battles, he hasn't fought a foe like Iron Man. Pluto generally handles people who are hand-to-hand combat. Tony Stark will be coming at Pluto with skills and technology he's never faced before.

That is why he tricked Hercules using a disguise, appeared in the Thunderbolts as a behind the picture mastermind and is a KING in his realm. Not to mention he was able to defeat the Defenders A team which includes both the Silver Surfer and Dr. Strange until Zeus was made aware. He can fight from a distance as well as up close.

Many of the Hellish characters in Marvel comics are not served well by appearing outside there realm. It's why "the gig was up" for me last round with Belasco...my secret had been learned, which is he really shouldn't be outside his realm. (You might have noticed I didn't really debate that match, as I knew he didn't stand a chance.) Pluto, as has been shown, is going to be more powerful in a realm that believes in him and inwhich he is shown to have vast power. He even states that in Hades, he's invincible, meaning outside of it he wouldn't be. This just links the two together for a greater understanding of why he might not be so powerful outside his realm. After all, if a God isn't believed in anymore, is he really a God?

The Olympians have powers which are innate. And think there is enough information out there that outside of his realm, Pluto is AT LEAST on par with Thor. The only instance where he looks weak is when Ulik threatens him and that was in Hades. The Pluto here is not weak.

I stand by it. Technology does reduce his power, as is shown when he fell off the roof, hitting into electrical technology, making him disappear. Iron Man has a ton of electricity to work with, and will probably be using it on him. Nobody forced Pluto to flee in that comic. Plus, while Hercules and Thor might be just as powerful, we are talking about a character whose admitted in his own words that he's more powerful in Hades than elsewhere. Plus, we have the additional quote by Thor. Something about being in the underworld being linked with their kingdoms are different from the likes of Hercules or Thor.

This is the same Pluto that we see at the head of an army who is using technology which is melting or mutating buildings and standing on a tank against the Avengers. And I am not going to repeat everytime that given he poses a challenge to Thor outside of Hades, his power is at least on par with him.

Actually, that's debatable. Thor's power levels are much different from Tony Starks. And, fighting style is quite a bit different, too. If this was Thor vs. Pluto, you'd very likely have a one on one fight in close quarters. But, this is Iron Man, who has direct access to everything within Stark Tower at his disposal. He will know he doesn't have to beat Pluto down, just trap him for a certain amount of time or incapacitate him. As I've said, Pluto is not used to dealing with a person relying on technology...but, Tony is used to dealing with Gods and people of mystical means. We know that Tony prepares for battles ahead of time. I'm sure he even has a plan to take out Thor if need be. He'll be prepared for someone like Pluto.

And pluto can teleport himself so how will he entrap him. Electricity is not going to harm him that much. And this is the God of Death who has a nephew named Hepheastus who guess waht is the God of forging and who has great knowledge of technology. How do you think Pluto has tanks.

The fact remains that Pluto hasn't fought anyone with the technological means of Tony Stark. The opposite cannot be said about Iron Man; he has faced both supposed Gods and magical users. If there is one person who would have the means to defeat Pluto, I'd place my money on Stark.

The thing about Iron Man is that most of the Gods and magical opponents he faced was as part of a team. He has barely faced any on his own.

Yet, Pluto and his vast minnions aren't advancing their power position in that battle anymore than the U.S. Army and the three Asgardians. If you read the issue (and, many of the Thor/Pluto battles) they seem much more like stalemates than Pluto winning. Even Thor knocks down Pluto a few times (and, like an idiot, he decides to talk instead of taking any kind of advantage...Thor is one verbose MFer!)

Pluto also hurts Thor. And the Battle ended with Pluto claiming he could end the battle with one spell from his fingers when Zeus all of a sudden appeared to end the combat. And the US army was losing given the battle lasted less then an hour. Please go read the comic again.

Again, the water is not portrayed as being mystical in nature in any way or form. He's doused by simple water from a storm, which is probably the crappiest defeat of a magical power I've ever seen. I admit it's crappy writing...but, it's cannon. I'm going to use it to my advantage. Also, all the mentions of Pluto's power isn't like going up against Tony Stark, the master of technology.

All I can say it was terrible downpour that was caused by Thor.

[QUOTE=Phaedrus45;12612965]When I did a magic search on Mandarin, I got "magic rings." Doing further research, it seemed that site deeming Mandarin's rings as magic is incorrect. However, Iron Man has faced Doom one on one on more than one occasion. In fact, they even made a special trade paperback a year ago reprinting their many battles:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/42949297858.1.gif (http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=42949297858%201)

Yes but you will notice in their face offs Doom barely uses any magic and it seems more a fight between the 2 armours.

I also want to point out that Iron Man's knowledge of mystical powers are so good that he took a mystical Asgardian crystal that Thor have him and used it in making his ThorBuster Armor.

I hope you are not stating that since Iron man was able to use the crystal which feeding energy to part of the country to feed energy into his own armour he can prevent spells and other such things. That is not going to happen. And for the record, Thor tore up the Thorbuster armour.

Plus, Iron Man has been fighting side by side with magic users, like Dr. Strange and Scarlet Witch. We know he's made armor against the likes of Hulk, Black Panther, and Thor...it stands to reason he's delved into the thoughts of magic users, too.

Hulk demolished his armour recnetly and he had allot more knowledge of these characters then he has of Pluto who he has never met. And he tends to rely on other magic users to deal with the magic aspects. He wasn't exactly effective against the Scarlet Witch during disassembled; now was he. Dr. Strange had to come to help and retconn the hell out of the Scarlet Witch.

But, technology is where Pluto is susceptable. A foot on the floor of Stark Tower is going to be noticed. Pluto's magic is not designed to go against technology that Stark would have, and it's evident in Pluto's own words, realizing that "20th Century Technology" can make others immune to his powers.

Pluto on tank (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix4/plutohades.htm)

If you scroll down you will see a picture of Pluto on his tank when fighting the Avengers. And the tank is more sophisticated then the ones that were created by Stark or during the 20th or even the 21st century. And you are using that one quote which says that he got rid of 20th century tech which could resist him and his armies to meaning he is afraid of it when he has battled the defenders on Earth. 20th century tech does not scare him. Lert me put it to you another way, in a war, the first step is to do away with any point of resistance even if that resistance is mild. It is the step to complete victory.

Pluto is an Olympian with Olympian Durability who also wears full body armour and can surround himself with shielding and can magically rnder himself invisible and more importantly undetectable.

I don't have the means to scan comics, otherwise I gladly would. Again, I quote my sources, and Pluto's own words damn him.

No actually what you are doing is taking a quote out of context and then interpreting it to fit what you want. I read the same comic as you and all I could tell is when the barier went down the mutates were winning until Zeus showed up with his face in the sky.

Again, we know that Pluto doesn't like Earthly technology, because Mythical Lore does not account for Scientific Reasoning. The Gods of yesterday didn't make these mystical weapons having to think about future technology which would make them ineffective. Remember, Pluto's weapons were made in a day long, long ago, a time more effective against the likes of Conan than Iron Man.

Actually, WE KNOW NOTHING of the sort. His axe is made of Adamantium which is still the most effective metal. His tanks were more advanced then those you see today. Hepheastus is a master of technology. And his helmet is just as effective against people with tech as it magically makes him UNDETECTABLE and by the way, Pluto did not create it, it was the Cyclops.

Iron man does not have technology to defeat elder Greek Gods and that is what Pluto is.

Winner = Pluto

Phaedrus45

08-30-2007, 10:32 AM

Ahura Mazda

08-31-2007, 03:54 AM

Well, I read your rebuttal, and was about to rebutt it...but, realized all that we'd be doing now is going back and forth between our arguments about who's right and who's better. So, my rebuttal is that I pretty much believe my side of things, you believe your side of things, and we'll let the voters decide now. (Plus, I really believe there is a point the voters get tired of reading the same arguments over and over.)

Good luck!

This is hilarious because when I saw you posted I thought I would be writing just what you did above. Godd luck to you.

I will say in conclusion that Pluto can teleport and is wearing a helmet which renders him undetectable and invisible.

Phaedrus45

08-31-2007, 10:33 AM

debating Is Over!

voting May Begin!!!

Phaedrus45

08-31-2007, 10:37 AM

Iron Man, of course

POWdER-man

08-31-2007, 07:19 PM

Iron Man

JewishHobbit

09-02-2007, 10:27 AM

I'm actually going back and forth on this one. I'm going to vote Iron Man, but I think they'd both win 5 out of 10.

Ahura Mazda

09-04-2007, 04:56 AM

Pluto - as expected

wiegeabo

09-04-2007, 10:32 AM

I'm really thinking Pluto can take this. But the advantage of Stark Towers and all the experience the Avengers had dealing with mystical beings (Tony would have access to those files, even if he wasn't on the team at the time) is huge.

Iron Man

Phaedrus45

09-07-2007, 12:44 PM

Iron Man defeats Pluto 4-1

Phaedrus45

09-07-2007, 12:48 PM

Phaedrus45

09-07-2007, 12:53 PM

LOCATION: The Hostel (Runaway's Base)

Not much information I find online. The location isn't occupied, and it would be before events that led to its destruction. Here is just a brief sentence explaining the location: "The runaways retreat to an underground hideout they call "the Hostel;" it is a mansion that was buried during an earthquake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthquake). The police eventually discover the Hostel, and Nico destroys it to facilitate escape."

Ahura Mazda

09-19-2007, 07:02 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/JewishHobbit/CoM.jpg

Iron Man (PHAEDRUS45) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_Iron-man.jpg

VS.

Maestro (KYTRIGGER) bio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maestro_%28comics%29#The_Maestro)

http://s11.photobucket.com/albums/a169/Phaedrus45/th_maestroa.gif

This is the final and that is something.

First off, I think both Iron Man and Maestro have a great knowledge of each other, but wait actually Iron man really only knows the Hulk and not Maestro and he will be in for a great surprise.

For those who want to look at past Iron Man / Hulk battles, please go the link and scroll down:

Hulk Battles (http://www.leaderslair.com/gammapeople/hulksmashes/hulksmashes.html)

You will notice in most of the battles Hulk trashes Iron Man's armour. The only battle where Iron Man knocked out the Hulk, was where he had to use every iota of energy his armour had, and he then shut down and Stark almost died.

Iron Man has even had not much success with his Hulk Buster armour against the normal Hulk. Now Maestro, is basiclly the Hulk to the power of 2. He is twice as strong, has a stronger healing factor, is faster and to top that he is a genius who is criminally insane. Maestro has no qualms about killing someone.

Iron Man who has lost repeatedly against the Hulk does not stand much of a chance against the Maestro.

Maestro Smashes

Phaedrus45

09-24-2007, 01:21 PM

Maestro vs. Iron Man:

So, we have a future, alternate Earth Hulk versus the current Tony Stark (or, at least current before Civil War). First, a chance to reintroduce voters to Maestro:

After a nuclear war kills almost all of Earth's superhumans and brings the world to the brink of extinction, the Maestro seizes control.
Gray haired and balding, the Maestro is clearly older than the Hulk, but is also significantly stronger due to the radiation he has absorbed since the war. He rules the city of Dystopia, built to his own designs and protected by radiation shielding. Brutal soldiers with hi-tech equipment keep the "peace" and impose the Maestro's iron will. The Maestro himself dwells in a grand palace, where a Bacchanalian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacchanalia) atmosphere reigns. Other gamma-irradiated beings, She-Hulk (now calling herself "Shulk") and the Abomination, survived the war and seem to have conquered other areas of the world.

After the Hulk's recovery, the two clash once more; but despite the Hulk's best efforts, the Maestro is still far too powerful for him. At the last minute, the Maestro is defeated by the use of Doom's time machine, and sent back to the time and place that the Hulk was created: ground zero during the testing of the atomic Gamma Bomb, the only bomb that the Hulk knew the ground zero location of. Appearing next to the bomb itself, Maestro is seemingly killed in the same moment that creates the Hulk,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternate_versions_of_Hulk#_note-futim2) but some part of his consciousness still remains, tied to the skeletal fragments at the Gamma Bomb site.

The question remains if Professor Hulk would have shared any information about Maestro to those people who might need to know about what the future possibly held? For me, I think it might be a good possibility that Tony Stark would have some information on Maestro. (He'd at least know he's a future version of The Hulk by seeing his picture, that's for sure.)

Now, from what I read, Maestro didn't defeat Earth's heroes, but kind of fell into a lucky situation from the nuclear war. Maestro is an alternate future, which means many of the situations that Tony Stark has gone through wouldn't be known to him, like the Extremis Armor. Also, Tony has the Hulk Buster Armor, and while we recently saw it fail in World War Hulk, that comic isn't usuable in this situation, and that version of the Hulk is much, much more deadly than the Maestro.

Tony does have 24 hours to try and come up with a plan on taking out The Hulk. If he knows about how Professor Hulk used a gamma bomb to eliminate him, he might try to come up with some power that he can use to attack him with the same weapon that changed him in the first place. Luckily, the location is unpopulated (and, more than likely, that mansion isn't going to hold up very well. I have a feeling the action will quickly go outside, because the mansion will be in ruins.)

Thus, I think Tony Stark has a good advantage if you look at his new armor, his old Hulkbuster Armor, 24 hour prep time, and knowledge of the Hulk and how gamma radiation might benefit him in this match-up.

Winner = Tony Stark(Iron Man)

Ahura Mazda

09-25-2007, 04:10 AM

Maestro vs. Iron Man:

So, we have a future, alternate Earth Hulk versus the current Tony Stark (or, at least current before Civil War). First, a chance to reintroduce voters to Maestro:

The question remains if Professor Hulk would have shared any information about Maestro to those people who might need to know about what the future possibly held? For me, I think it might be a good possibility that Tony Stark would have some information on Maestro. (He'd at least know he's a future version of The Hulk by seeing his picture, that's for sure.)

I doubt he has because the Professor was part of the Pantheon which was not on great speaking terms with the Avengers. And we know the Hulk certianly did not have any conversation of the sort with Tony.

Now, from what I read, Maestro didn't defeat Earth's heroes, but kind of fell into a lucky situation from the nuclear war. Maestro is an alternate future, which means many of the situations that Tony Stark has gone through wouldn't be known to him, like the Extremis Armor. Also, Tony has the Hulk Buster Armor, and while we recently saw it fail in World War Hulk, that comic isn't usuable in this situation, and that version of the Hulk is much, much more deadly than the Maestro.

Actually it is uncertain it seems some may have been defeated by Maestro eventhough I would state that most died because of the nuclear war. However, regarding the armour, Tony's armour is fallible and the Hulk almost always has overcome it. This armour would not have a fate any different from the other ones. And the Maestro remains twice as strong (base strength) as the normal Hulk. Plus he is an insane genuis and as such will be able to plan for Iron Man.

Tony does have 24 hours to try and come up with a plan on taking out The Hulk. If he knows about how Professor Hulk used a gamma bomb to eliminate him, he might try to come up with some power that he can use to attack him with the same weapon that changed him in the first place. Luckily, the location is unpopulated (and, more than likely, that mansion isn't going to hold up very well. I have a feeling the action will quickly go outside, because the mansion will be in ruins.)

First off, getting a gamma bomb to go off next to Maestro is not a simple task especially as we are in a base where there is not much room to fit one and transporting it would be difficult, as well as Iron Man would be destroyed in the blast as well. So I think you can stop that line of thought.

And Tony Stark has yet to come up with a gamma weapon against the Hulk. He never was able to before.

Thus, I think Tony Stark has a good advantage if you look at his new armor, his old Hulkbuster Armor, 24 hour prep time, and knowledge of the Hulk and how gamma radiation might benefit him in this match-up.

I actually think Iron man is heavily handicapped against the Maestro who is stronger, has a very powerful healing factor (he came back from nothing), is fast and virtually invulnerable.

Winner = The Maestro

Phaedrus45

09-25-2007, 12:02 PM

Maestro vs. Iron Man:

I doubt he has because the Professor was part of the Pantheon which was not on great speaking terms with the Avengers. And we know the Hulk certianly did not have any conversation of the sort with Tony.

There are a few clues that provide that the Avengers might have information about the Pantheon. First, Agamemnon is a half-human and half-Asgardian god. Since Agamemnon is half-Asgardian, Thor would know about him, and the Avengers frequently fought against Asgardians or have been afflilated with them; thus, they would likely have information about various Asgardians, especially with information gathered from Thor. Second, Hulk is a person who the Avengers always have kept information on; after all, he is a past Avenger. Thirdly, the Pantheon were ultimately recruited by the United States government. The Avengers would likely have information then. Finally, even the Avengers has made an appearance within the issues relating to the Pantheon.

Actually it is uncertain it seems some may have been defeated by Maestro eventhough I would state that most died because of the nuclear war. However, regarding the armour, Tony's armour is fallible and the Hulk almost always has overcome it. This armour would not have a fate any different from the other ones. And the Maestro remains twice as strong (base strength) as the normal Hulk. Plus he is an insane genuis and as such will be able to plan for Iron Man.

Here is my thoughts on this. It's not always backed up really by the comics; but, I've always found a problem in how many characters have fought the Hulk. We've seen in the "Search for the She-Hulk" storyline from Avengers that Jack of Hearts used his powers to revert knock out and help contain both Hulk and She-Hulk. It would seem to me that Tony Stark and other geniuses could find a way to use radiation to defeat Hulk (and Maestro). In my thoughts, Tony Stark would take the information in the Search for the She-Hulk" storyline and use the same methods with his armor. A man of Tony Stark's genius would have a means to replicate this. (Sadly, Marvel Comics wouldn't like to show that Hulk can be defeated so easily. Thus, we always have fist-a-cuffs.)

First off, getting a gamma bomb to go off next to Maestro is not a simple task especially as we are in a base where there is not much room to fit one and transporting it would be difficult, as well as Iron Man would be destroyed in the blast as well. So I think you can stop that line of thought.

It wouldn't be a bomb...but, Tony could take the information of how Hulk and possibly Maestro has been defeated in the past and use it with his armor. Radiation effects the Hulk, and there would be ways with the proper armor that Tony can take the battle to Maestro.

I actually think Iron man is heavily handicapped against the Maestro who is stronger, has a very powerful healing factor (he came back from nothing), is fast and virtually invulnerable.

At first, Iron Man does seem handicapped. But, remember that now Tony has access to all electronics around him. So, anything usable in this Mansion of the Runaways is his to use. Any security defenses can be controled by Tony Stark. Also, even though Maestro might be stronger and all, he's also quite a bit older. When we get older, we lose some of our previous strengths. Tony is still a young man, and quicker of mind, in my opinion.

Winner = Iron Man

Ahura Mazda

09-26-2007, 03:49 AM

There are a few clues that provide that the Avengers might have information about the Pantheon. First, Agamemnon is a half-human and half-Asgardian god. Since Agamemnon is half-Asgardian, Thor would know about him, and the Avengers frequently fought against Asgardians or have been afflilated with them; thus, they would likely have information about various Asgardians, especially with information gathered from Thor. Second, Hulk is a person who the Avengers always have kept information on; after all, he is a past Avenger. Thirdly, the Pantheon were ultimately recruited by the United States government. The Avengers would likely have information then. Finally, even the Avengers has made an appearance within the issues relating to the Pantheon.

The Hulk never reported of his encounter with Maestro. It would have been stupid of the Professor to do this. How do you think the story would have come across that he becomes twice as powerful but criminally insane in the future and that he will try and rule most of the world. I am not sure that is a story he really wants people to hear. Plus he was a founding member of the Avengers but then ended up battling them in issue #3. He does not share information with them.

Here is my thoughts on this. It's not always backed up really by the comics; but, I've always found a problem in how many characters have fought the Hulk. We've seen in the "Search for the She-Hulk" storyline from Avengers that Jack of Hearts used his powers to revert knock out and help contain both Hulk and She-Hulk. It would seem to me that Tony Stark and other geniuses could find a way to use radiation to defeat Hulk (and Maestro). In my thoughts, Tony Stark would take the information in the Search for the She-Hulk" storyline and use the same methods with his armor. A man of Tony Stark's genius would have a means to replicate this. (Sadly, Marvel Comics wouldn't like to show that Hulk can be defeated so easily. Thus, we always have fist-a-cuffs.)

It is acnon that with all of his Hulk buster armours he has never been able to siphon off the power of the Hulk. To say that here he would all of a suden find a way is hard to imagine. Plus all he knows is he is facing a Hulk like creature, not that he is facing a future version of the Hulk. And one thing to note is that not all Hulk like creatures are the same nor have exactly the same strengths. That is a big hole in your argument as there is no certainty to EXACTLY who Iron Man is facing.

It wouldn't be a bomb...but, Tony could take the information of how Hulk and possibly Maestro has been defeated in the past and use it with his armor. Radiation effects the Hulk, and there would be ways with the proper armor that Tony can take the battle to Maestro.

First off I seriously doubt he has that type of information to the point I would be willing to bet he does not. And radiotion often strengthens the Hulk unless you are going to suggest Iron man will develp Silver Surfer powers. Don't forget that Tony Stark is no gamma specilist and he is not on the same level as Reed Richards. Plus Maestro has all the genius of Banner. He is however criminally insane so he does not hold back.

At first, Iron Man does seem handicapped. But, remember that now Tony has access to all electronics around him. So, anything usable in this Mansion of the Runaways is his to use. Any security defenses can be controled by Tony Stark. Also, even though Maestro might be stronger and all, he's also quite a bit older. When we get older, we lose some of our previous strengths. Tony is still a young man, and quicker of mind, in my opinion.

I thought the Runaways base had very little tech and relied mostly on mystical weaponry. Tony is not going to find much stuff here as this is not Stark Tower ;). And Old for the Hulk does not change much given his healing factor.

Winner = Maestro