"Unrealistic" Villians

[Spideyfan01]

I was just wondering how some of the more unrealistic would fit into the Nolanverse.

Some of my ideas are:
Mr. Freeze: He could be a scientist that Joker knocks into a vat of chemicals. The chemicals destroy mess up his brain, so he turns to crime. I would like to see him in some kind of suit, but it would have to be a realistic one.

Clay-Face: He could be a crime boss that was in an accident, so his face is all screwed up (It looks like his face is made of clay, hence the nickname "Clay-Face).

If you have any ideas, please share them.

[El Payaso]

What's with villiains creating other villiains?

[Eddie Dean]

This again? :whatever:

[Nepenthes]

Don't listen to him ^ there can never be enough of these ideas. Except I think there's already threads for it maybe, in DKR forum :cwink:. Here's what I think Spideyfan.

Some of my ideas are:
Mr. Freeze: He could be a scientist that Joker knocks into a vat of chemicals. The chemicals destroy mess up his brain, so he turns to crime. I would like to see him in some kind of suit, but it would have to be a realistic one.
This is not that different from the comics expect you'd added Joker and removed his wife and ice guns. Can you elaborate on how these changes help fit him into the 'Nolan style' because I don't really see how they do. And imo the wife is a great aspect to the character.

See my idea in the Freeze thread here for my take. Also the Ivy thread.


Clay-Face: He could be a crime boss that was in an accident, so his face is all screwed up (It looks like his face is made of clay, hence the nickname "Clay-Face).
Sounds like Two-Face face! But where Two-Face is about duality Clayface is about being a chameleon, not just looking weird. For instance maybe he can be a famous and accomplished actor who - for some reason - his face starts to droop and he's unrecognisable. He begins to lose his sense of identity that was never really that firm to begin with. Now he is no one. He goes nuts and perhaps takes revenge on the who or what behind his droopiness.

I was going to write about a plastic surgeon and perhaps different ways the actor could realistically assume different faces, but really I'm stuck. Nolan Clayface is just not a good idea; he has no unique way to pose a threat to Batman, no real motive I'm aware of other than revenge, and unless he has mob connections (ex Frank Sinatra) he's not much of a crime figure. He's in the comics because his power makes him quite dramatic. Take that away he's nothing.


Anyway I really enjoy thinking about new takes on villains and hearing others - and I'm open to whatever wacky or radical ideas but imo they must retain the core of the character and cover the following aspects...using Scarecrow as an example:

1. Credible Motive: i.e. study fear in patients; feel personal superiority by gaining control over others peoples mind; profit from Ra's 'Gotham ransom'.

2. Unique and Longlasting Pattern of Threat or Crime: release criminals from prison and trial into Arkam for Falconio; gas people who get in the way of Ra's plan.

3. Unique Dramatic Element: fear gas and hallucinations. Scary gas mask.

4. Reflection of Batman: Conquer fear. Control fear.

I'd be very interested if you can explain these in your Mr.Freeze and whoever else. :woot:

[NinjaTurtleFan]

If Freeze and Clayface are in a movie then they should follow the "BTAS" route with some comics thrown in. None of this "making up origins" crap. It only works for such villains as Poison Ivy and Mad Hatter, or Killer Croc, but others I say...

"Stick to the source or don't even attempt at making a good movie."

[Lots o lafs]

Freeze could only work if he has like military weapons. He could be a genius and crazy considering most people that are incredibly smart are insane.:wow: :batty: :batman: :bat: :p

[Riven]

Mr. Freeze: He could be a scientist that Joker knocks into a vat of chemicals. The chemicals destroy mess up his brain, so he turns to crime. I would like to see him in some kind of suit, but it would have to be a realistic one.However much I love the character of Mr. Freeze, I fear there isn't really any way that would satisfyingly place him within Nolan's "heightened realism"... Remember, Nolan stated recently that he even thinks a character like the Penguin is pushing it.

Of ALL the villains in the movie/animated continuum, Freeze is the only one who got a truly satisfying and complete story arc. From the TAS episodes "Heart of Ice" and "Deep Freeze", to the animated movie "Sub-Zero" and the later animated episodes "Cold Comfort" and "Meltdown" (Batman Beyond), his story was brought full-circle. So I really wouldn't mind much if we didn't see him in the films anymore. He's been done justice sufficiently (even wiping from memory Schwarzenegger's god-afwul portrayal in B&R)


Clay-Face: He could be a crime boss that was in an accident, so his face is all screwed up (It looks like his face is made of clay, hence the nickname "Clay-Face)
That sounds more like the villain Black Mask, actually...

[Infinity9999x]

Honestly, what's up with all the realism stuff latley? I mean, yeah, I'm all for making a movie more relatable for audiences, but who does Nolan think he's kidding? BB wasn't that realistic. He made a movie about a guy who dresses up in a Batsuit, and fought a guy who runs an orginzation that burns down cities, steals a machine that vaporizes water (but somehow not the water in humans...) and a crazy guy who likes to use fear gas to scare the hell out of people.

Now aside from that, a villian not being included in a batman movie for realisim is ridiculous to begin with! THIS IS A COMIC BOOK MOVIE! It's a movie about a vigilante that dresses like a bat, somehow is never caught by the police or the FBI, and everybody likes him. The movie isn't realistic to begin with, so why should we change villian's backrounds to make them more "real?"

[Robin91939]

Clayface-

In a Nolan movie, let’s face it, he won’t be the monstrous mound of mud from the animated series and some runs of the comics.

I suggest another angle. If we do in fact get three good movies from Nolan (Ra’s/Scarecrow, Two-face, & Joker) and they do so well that Nolan chooses to stay aboard I suggest he tackles Clayface.

The Clayface that is in my head is Basil Carlo, the first Clayface. Also, Matt Hagan, probably every TAS fan’s favorite version would be incorporated in.

Basil Carlo, a struggling actor. Very vain, so he goes under the knife. There is a subtle accident, that messes his features a little. He takes this as a HUGE discrepancy. He then thinks that he is losing auditions because of his face, instead of his complete lack of acting ability. Eventually his wife walks out on him taking his son. Months later his money problems become so bad that he is forced to rob a lady for her purse, she struggles, and he kills her.

Killing her didn’t feel like he thought it would, he wasn’t sad, he was proud. Proud that he finally had power, power to take something from the world that was worth something.

The following months there are reports of victims dying of suffocation. Choked and raped. All of his crimes have the same M.O. they’re all women and they were all choked to death by being forced to swallow a lump of “clay” like substance, like a sillyputty.

Carlo wears brown stage make-up covering his face, which looks melted. At first sight the women are horrified, he uses this initial fear to then strike, grabbing their throats, and shoving wads of the same stage makeup down their throats until their pupils shrink and their arms go limp.

He leaves a small trace of the makeup at each scene of the crime. As his calling card.

It is a detective story, and a mystery for Batman to find the serial killer that the tabloids and police call Clayface, after one survivor’s eye witness account.

To make him a physical match, the guy is going to be huge. Not a monster of Clayface’s past, but a realistic adaptation. It would have to be handled very seriously, and for this story, Batman would have had three movies, so one that focus’s a lot on the villain wouldn’t be a problem, especially to pull this villain off, he would need a lot of time, or tell his story in flash backs. I haven’t worked out a Batman story to coincide with the Clayface story, but I just wanted to share my idea for Clayface on screen. :up:

Tell me what you think

-R

[Tempest19]

/\ Wow. Never knew that about Clayface! Just viewed him as this cartoon-like character that is a huge glob of clay.

But, what you just described about the villain's past- WOW. Intense. Reminded me of a dark crime thriller, which is really the route to go with the future Batman films and one thing that stood out about BB.

And if there was a Batman TV show- I think it would be best possibly as a crime drama, because all of these villains- even clayface- are really dark and intriguing characters if given a chance to be portrayed in a realistic comic book type way.

[Eastwood]

i say have some unrealistic characters i mean not everything has to be realistic its a movie

[Nepenthes]

Eastwood and Infinity 9999x. You mongrels. This is a thread about fitting the comic books into Nolans style. It's quite simple to understand. If you don't like Nolans approach then why bother posting stuff *we've heard a thousand times before* and is lame, lazy and ignorant anyways. Don't bother responding.



Robin91939 (wtf is up with the numbers?) Nice idea there. Maybe the plastic surgery mistake could be - the surgeon remodeled Carlo's face with a new method (bone structure implants, plastic injections etc) which didnt quite take. It all begins to droop. So Carlo needs regular surgery or maintainence to keep his face from melting. Perhaps he can use this opputunity to adopt new faces (HUGE perhaps) which eventually stops working altogether.

Also, instead of a struggling actor maybe Carlo was a global celebrity who faked his death (murdered his wife? contracted by mob? this could be good) and that's why he needed a new face, to disapear.

Have to be carfeul though cos the disfigurment thing will be pretty worn out with Burtons Joker & Peguin and Nolans Joker & TwoFace. Batmans rogues are more than just a freakshow. Also a scar on a vain, failed actor sounds an awful lot like Joker and TwoFace just combined into one.

[TwilightPro101]

Where there is a will, there is a way.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Man-Bat. Though he and Clayface would be right at home in Burton's BR Gotham. Something I would've liked to see.

[TwilightPro101]

Defintely wanna see how their going to be play out the others.

[NolGoyHater]

For the Riddler, let's not have him in green spandex with question marks, but instead have him wearing green cyclist shorts. He could be a cyclist, hence the slim body style built for stamina. Let's say he's a Lance Armstrong type of guy who loses the Tour de Gotham curcuit because the Joker told everyone that Edward Nygma was buying drugs from him. He goes crazy because the drugs have a toxin and he starts seeing question marks 24/7. Then he uses questions to kill his victims. "Will I kill you now?" "How will you die?" "Do you find me sexy?"

Nah, forget it. The heightened realism is a load of uninspiring BS. I like idea to make Clayface was a rapist. That would make a kid-friendly movie, or another BR but worse.

Liberties are allowed to be taken with Nolan, yet despised by when Burton and Schumacher did them. Whatever.

[GL1]

The trick lies in the science... not in the origins... the origin stories themselves are fine, but it's the line you walk where you have to say that this person can shapeshift and control themselves on a molecular level and you lose the reality.

Dr. Fries having a cryo accident can be fine... wouldn't hold to the 'only survives in cold' thing too hard, cuz that doesn't really work, but having his chemistry change to make him want to be in the cold all the time and percieve room temperature as sweltering has real life precedent... and giving him a liquid nitrogen gun is... well... easy, and pretty frightening, honestly... instant death... none of this shine the sun on them foolishness...


Killer Croc flies as a man with a skin disorder that sharpens his teeth as a circus freak.

But Man-Bat? You can't explain anything even remotely like that with modern science... perhaps at a stretch as a Dr. Moreau type genetic experiement (we've got hybrid lions and tigers, the Bat and man hybrid isn't pure theory, right?) but not a transformation... even if one could change all the DNA in their body instantly (uber impossible), it wouldn't result in an overnight change.

Most of Batman's other major villains are 'realistic' imho. The only one that can't be suitably switched to realistic is Clayface, imho.

[vrempire]

How about the Man-Bat? I think he will get the most make-up.
Oh another one, the Killer-Croc. How about this time, Batman will fight two mutants at the same time. And at the end, Batman will team up with Man-Bat to get the cure for Man-Bat that was stole by Killer-Croc because Killer-Croc want to sell it in the Black Market and produce more Man-Bat as his own army. Fuuhhhh...whadda story..

[ChrisBaleBatman]

The thing about "unrealistic" villians......is that if you just give the ILLUSION of reality......it doesn't matter. Just giving the audience a reason some logic behind some of these things can be enough, and the costumes too being not quite as grand. Mr. Freeze is a character I think can be done rather "realistically" just by the type of costume you give him and what the freeze gun looks like. The other stuff can be bought pretty easily I think. Killer Croc too, can be done realistically.......and without making him a pimp either, lol.

Man-Bat is a really tough dude to give that "illusion of reality" to, just b/c him transforming into a giant Bat is such a fantasty that has existed for so long.

But, again......"unrealstic villians" is kinda funny to me, b/c if we had this convo before Batman Begins ever got made.....I doubt Ra's al Ghul would be considered realistic, ya know.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Or Freeze could be done ala Dark Victory, where he worked for Two-Face, who promised the money needed to help Nora. No origin there, just a freak offering his services to a crazed D.A.

[GL1]

But, again......"unrealstic villians" is kinda funny to me, b/c if we had this convo before Batman Begins ever got made.....I doubt Ra's al Ghul would be considered realistic, ya know.

And they elminated the fantastic aspects of Ra's, in fact, they changed Ra's dramatically (which is why I laugh at peopl ewho talk about comics accuracy and liked Begins). He wasn't immortal and there were no Lazarus pits (not to mention that he was fused with Henri Ducard).

If you could eliminate the transformation from Man-Bat, it becomes believable... if man bat is created with genetics like cloned Sheep (meaning starting as a baby) then we have something that actually seems possible (even though humans and bats have different numbers of chromosomes, and we aren't done mapping either set).

There's nothing like that for clayface... his POWERS are the thing that make him AND they are the thing that make him too fantastical...

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Who's to say there is no Lazarus Pit? I find it very smart that Nolan didn't outright say "no Lazarus Pit." If he ever sees fit to bring Ra's back, he can have Ra's give a short exposition on his return.

[Batman jr.]

And they elminated the fantastic aspects of Ra's, in fact, they changed Ra's dramatically (which is why I laugh at peopl ewho talk about comics accuracy and liked Begins). He wasn't immortal and there were no Lazarus pits (not to mention that he was fused with Henri Ducard).

If you could eliminate the transformation from Man-Bat, it becomes believable... if man bat is created with genetics like cloned Sheep (meaning starting as a baby) then we have something that actually seems possible (even though humans and bats have different numbers of chromosomes, and we aren't done mapping either set).

There's nothing like that for clayface... his POWERS are the thing that make him AND they are the thing that make him too fantastical...

And we all know that Burton's penguin was THE closest to the comics you'll ever get in a movie.

[The Last Meatbag]

I don't give a **** if they're faitful or not , I give a **** about if they're faithful to the comics or not

[GL1]

Who's to say there is no Lazarus Pit? I find it very smart that Nolan didn't outright say "no Lazarus Pit." If he ever sees fit to bring Ra's back, he can have Ra's give a short exposition on his return.

Touche. Smart indeed. Hadn't thought of that.

I don't give a **** if they're faitful or not , I give a **** about if they're faithful to the comics or not

Bargh???? What else would they be faithful to, praytell?

[Damiean Dark]

Honestly, what's up with all the realism stuff latley? I mean, yeah, I'm all for making a movie more relatable for audiences, but who does Nolan think he's kidding? BB wasn't that realistic. He made a movie about a guy who dresses up in a Batsuit, and fought a guy who runs an orginzation that burns down cities, steals a machine that vaporizes water (but somehow not the water in humans...) and a crazy guy who likes to use fear gas to scare the hell out of people.

Now aside from that, a villian not being included in a batman movie for realisim is ridiculous to begin with! THIS IS A COMIC BOOK MOVIE! It's a movie about a vigilante that dresses like a bat, somehow is never caught by the police or the FBI, and everybody likes him. The movie isn't realistic to begin with, so why should we change villian's backrounds to make them more "real?"

damn right i dont know about the rest of u but Nolans take will never be batman to me if he is adamant these villains wont appear.

[Nepenthes]

Touche. Smart indeed. Hadn't thought of that.

"Is Ra's Al Ghul immortal? Are is methods...supernatural?"

It's right there in the movie! :cwink:

I agree with your point about framing the science behind the villains in reality. That'll a huge part of any serious movie especially for characters like Freeze and Ivy.

Freeze could be done with a dry ice gun instead of a laser like ray that encases people in blocks of ice. In the comics Freeze actually shoots a liquid that freezes on contact, but point is it would LOOK too sci-fi on film...the points ChristianBaleBatman makes about the ILLUSION of reality are entirely correct. Dry ice is something we've all scene firsthand in real life.



And Clayface CAN be done imo! The powers are NOT what makes the character it's the motive and the gimmick. See mine and Robin91939's posts last page. Elements of his power can even be 'realistically' retained...a plastic surgery fuu*ck-up means he can easily adopt new faces, which ties into his actor past to produce themes of 'shifting identity' or 'lack of identity', meaning he can assume various guises but no longer be one true person.



Eastwood and Infinity 9999x. You mongrels. This is a thread about fitting the comic books into Nolans style. It's quite simple to understand. If you don't like Nolans approach then why bother posting stuff *we've heard a thousand times before* and is lame, lazy and ignorant anyways. Don't bother responding.

I'd like to redirect that post to this rat above me ^ and NolGoyHater of course.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I dunno......I've never heard, or read, that Nolan was so adament about the realism.

I think the realsim thing is something alot of fans have ran with.

Watch Batman Begins. PLEASE. Watch it. Lie to me. Tell it's a ****ing documentary.

It's got the illusion of realism. But, it's hardly real. The Batmobile flying on rooftops. Batman gliding. A man in a batsuit. Fear Toxin. Secret society of ninjas.

C'mon. If you thought Batman Begins was very realistic, then you were fooled. It did it's job, I suppose, by suspending your disbelief well enough.

But, c'mon.....I think the realism aspect is something too many fans have gone too far with.

[GL1]

I dunno......I've never heard, or read, that Nolan was so adament about the realism.

I think the realsim thing is something alot of fans have ran with.

Watch Batman Begins. PLEASE. Watch it. Lie to me. Tell it's a ****ing documentary.

It's got the illusion of realism. But, it's hardly real. The Batmobile flying on rooftops. Batman gliding. A man in a batsuit. Fear Toxin. Secret society of ninjas.

C'mon. If you thought Batman Begins was very realistic, then you were fooled. It did it's job, I suppose, by suspending your disbelief well enough.

But, c'mon.....I think the realism aspect is something too many fans have gone too far with.

Indeed... but that doesn't change the fact that the movie does provide an illusion of realism, while comics only offer the *suspension* of disbelief.

Look at your examples... a fear toxin? Perfectly possible... a secret society of ninjas? What other kind of society of ninjas are there? 45 mintues dedicated to how a man in a batsuit might come to be. And while I think memory fabric was a strech, as well as the concept of a bridge making car-tank, IF those things existed, then what was done with them is entirely possible, and both of them were explained in such a way as to make them seem real, AND these two were among the *few* things that were impossible in Batman Begins...

limited impossibilities, well explained extraordinariness...it all produces the Illusion of Reality. Batman Begins has it, Batman Returns doesn't. That's not fan imagination, that simply movie analysis and criticism. Nolan doesn't need to make a statement, he's made a movie with a great deal of illusion of reality. The suspension of disbelief required for Batman Begins is so small, especially compared with movies like Hulk, Daredevil, Elektra, Spider-Man and Superman Returns... that one can easily call it 'realistic' even if there are a couple things in the movie which are not...

Again, Batman Begins requires some suspension of disbelief. But not nearly as much as, say James Bond 18-20 or Daredevil.

[Superman Prime]

BB had the dryness of realism, though. That's what most disappointed fans point out.

[Two-Face]

I love to see Man-Bat as a villain in future movies but I don't know how could be done in Nolan's Bat-World.

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I kinda disagree though.

I think whatever dryness people claimed, isn't b/c of the realism.....but from the approach. It's strongly influenced by Batman The Long Halloween. That story is simply put, a somber and serious approach in tone to the character. Same as Year One, too. Those stories are dry in many ways b/c of the lack of "grandeur" or something.

I mean, really.....realsim isn't anything new. Daredevil didn't make any sense b/c it was as if they lived on Planet Matrix or something. They would just float in the air. It was off putting, namely in the playground fight scene....a scene that alone didn't make sense. But, something like Spider-Man has a sense of realism, for it's own world of course. It's why we got organic webbing, instead of the webshooters. It's why we got the micro-hairs on his fingers instead of "force of will". X-Men also go for realsim. Superman went for realism too.

I think the realsim is just more evident, and gets more heat, b/c Batman cannot lift a giant building.....or swing through Gotham.....or fly at blinding speeds. Since he's human, it's just easier for us to point out, I think. But, the realism thing is nothing new to the superhero film genre.

[batman7289]

manbat is real
:0

[Mr. Socko]

Neeson better come back by using the Pit!

[TimeSplitter]

My favorite Batman villian ever is the Riddler. The perfect casting choice for him would be...Steve Buscemi!

I've also always wanted a story with Riddler's origins being a newspaper reporter. Think like Bruce Almighty, he does all the silly stories nobody cares about. Then he gets a really good story and develops the interview question "Riddle me this...."

Perfect!

[The Joker]

I was just wondering how some of the more unrealistic would fit into the Nolanverse.

Some of my ideas are:
Mr. Freeze: He could be a scientist that Joker knocks into a vat of chemicals. The chemicals destroy mess up his brain, so he turns to crime. I would like to see him in some kind of suit, but it would have to be a realistic one.

Clay-Face: He could be a crime boss that was in an accident, so his face is all screwed up (It looks like his face is made of clay, hence the nickname "Clay-Face).

If you have any ideas, please share them.

they should just do Golden Age Clayface, actor turned criminal Basil Karlo :o

[Mr. Socko]

The way I see it, if a villian can't be introduced in a Batman movie some kind of way, then they're going about it the wrong way. If it can happen in the comics, it should be able to happen in the movies.

[Damiean Dark]

But Nolan seems to think penguin cant be brought to his franchise WTF is that about? i dont expect the crazy (but brilliant) batman returns pengy just make him a simple arms dealer who has a touch of snobbery about him and a fondness for birds its so simple.

[Mr. Socko]

Exactly. It could definitely be done.

[Jenksflash]

Honestly, what's up with all the realism stuff latley? I mean, yeah, I'm all for making a movie more relatable for audiences, but who does Nolan think he's kidding? BB wasn't that realistic. He made a movie about a guy who dresses up in a Batsuit, and fought a guy who runs an orginzation that burns down cities, steals a machine that vaporizes water (but somehow not the water in humans...) and a crazy guy who likes to use fear gas to scare the hell out of people.

Now aside from that, a villian not being included in a batman movie for realisim is ridiculous to begin with! THIS IS A COMIC BOOK MOVIE! It's a movie about a vigilante that dresses like a bat, somehow is never caught by the police or the FBI, and everybody likes him. The movie isn't realistic to begin with, so why should we change villian's backrounds to make them more "real?"

I wondered about that myself. My only justification is that the beam on the train was focused straight down at the water mains and any human would get vaporized(war of the worlds style).

[Jenksflash]

BB had the dryness of realism, though. That's what most disappointed fans point out.

How could anyone have been disappointed with BB? I almost ran my head through a wall because someone did a Batman movie so well. Didn't read any reviews on the movie and just joined this board. Mistakenly thought any comic fan would love it.

[Rockbottom]

BB had the dryness of realism, though. That's what most disappointed fans point out.

Actually thats what made the film for most critics.

[Nepenthes]

It's also why people went to see the movie in the first place

Honestly it's times like this when a part of me says Screw The Fans. We can read comic books. Movies are for everyone.

[killingyouguy]

My take on the villains that we don't know will be in a future movie:

Hugo Strange - Could be explained pretty easily, but his M.O. is pretty lame. There are much better villains. Only bring him in if running low.

Catwoman - Definately should be a big part of the series. You can't tell Bruce Wayne's story without Selina Kyle IMO. Catwoman is very easy to explain (similar to Batman, with the suit and whatnot). Would start of as a villain then toe the line like she did in the comics.

Clayface - Maybe, if done like the original Clayface, Basil Karlo. Pretty weak M.O. (IMO) and very similar to other (better) villains. Only use if running low.

Penguin - I disagree with Nolan, I think Penguin is pretty easy to put in these movies. British, called "the Penguin" and has weaponized umbrellas (and if he's a British gangster/arm's dealer that wouldn't be too hard to explain). That's it. As long as you have that, you can do whatever you want with him IMHO.

Riddler - I would rather not see him. Although he could be explained he would come of as a weak, more harmless version of the Joker. Maybe a minor/cameo role.

Mad-Hatter - No. Too silly. Running around trying to get hats on people, bleh.

Deadshot - Maybe, but not very well known. Doesn't really fit the "feel" of these movies, feels more like a Marvel character.

Mr. Freeze - No. Too unrealistic.

Poison Ivy - With her "super powers" over plants, no. But maybe if she's just an insane biochemist who uses her knowledge of plants & chemicals in her crimes, that could work.

Man-Bat - No.

Killer Croc - Hell no.

Black Mask - Yes. Easy to explain. Rumoured he could be in the next movie, which I would like. Hopefully he'll be introduced in a minor role in the next one and become a larger villain in the 3rd (alongside Two-Face).

Ventriloquist - No. Well, maybe in a very small role (like Zsasz in BB) as an escaped inmate from Arkham or something. Who's quickly caught by Batman.

Harley Quinn - I can see her in a latter movie. I think Joker should go to Arkham at the end of TDK or the start of the 3rd movie and stay there 'til like the 5th or 6th (which I think should be the last) movie where he escapes. With minor scenes in the movies inbetween showing him in Arkham, maybe with Dr. Quinzel. But I think she would have to be a much darker character than in the comics/cartoon. Personally, if she's done well I'd like her in, but if she's not I wont be crying.

Bane - No. Stupid.

Hush - Yes. Easily explained and offers something different in that his conflict is personal with Bruce Wayne.

In summary:

Yes: Catwoman, Penguin, Black Mask, Hush
Maybe, if minor/cameo (like Zsasz): Riddler, Deadshot, Ventriloquist
Maybe, if done right: Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn
Only if you have no one else: Hugo Strange, Clayface
No: Mad-Hatter, Mr. Freeze, Man-Bat, Killer Croc, Bane


So that's about 8-10 main/secondary villains (including Ra's, Scarecrow, Falcone, Joker & Two-Face) plus a possible 4 minor villains (including Zsasz) over this new series. Which I think should be about 6 movies altogether. I think that's plenty, and covers the vast majority of the popular villains without breaking the feel of the movies (if done right).

KYG

[GL1]

Interesting take on things...

I would push Catwoman towards the no side, because Batman's suit really can't be applied to anyone else (Kyle industries has government contracts??). And Catwoman being able to keep up with Batman needs a really good explanation... she can't just be mentioned (Oh, and this other chick scales buildings too).

I would put Mr. Freeze more towards the yes because a liquid nitrogen gun and toning down his need for coldness puts him firmly in the realm of reality... and he's got a good story, honestly.

[killingyouguy]

I would push Catwoman towards the no side, because Batman's suit really can't be applied to anyone else (Kyle industries has government contracts??).

By "similar with the suit" and whatnot I mean in putting a suit together. Not the same one as Batman. She could rumage around in her wardrobe for gloves & boots. Maybe even the suit as well (she could have an old lycra bodysuit, maybe from excercising or gymnastics). The mask could even be an old Halloween mask. Or perhaps after nearly being caught (or seeing Batman) she decides she needs a mask and goes to a shop, choosing a cat mask (maybe out of remembering her cat-loving mother who committed suicide - from the comics). And after a tough fight with a guard (or even Batman) decides she needs some sort of weapon so she puts claws on the gloves, then finds the cat-o-ninetails during a robbery, forced into using it she decides she likes it and keeps it. Wouldn't need to explain that all in one movie maybe the costume & claws in her first appearance and cat-o-ninetails in her second. Just some ideas. :yay:

And Catwoman being able to keep up with Batman needs a really good explanation... she can't just be mentioned (Oh, and this other chick scales buildings too).

She could have been a very good gymnast when she was younger. And her fighting ability could be explained by many years of crime & living on the streets. What do you think? :word:

KYG

[Spideyfan01]

Bane - No. Stupid.




I don't think Bane's stupid. He could work in the Nolanverse if they just got rid of his venom and made him a bodybuilder.

[GL1]

By "similar with the suit" and whatnot I mean in putting a suit together. Not the same one as Batman. She could rumage around in her wardrobe for gloves & boots. Maybe even the suit as well (she could have an old lycra bodysuit, maybe from excercising or gymnastics). The mask could even be an old Halloween mask. Or perhaps after nearly being caught (or seeing Batman) she decides she needs a mask and goes to a shop, choosing a cat mask (maybe out of remembering her cat-loving mother who committed suicide - from the comics). And after a tough fight with a guard (or even Batman) decides she needs some sort of weapon so she puts claws on the gloves, then finds the cat-o-ninetails during a robbery, forced into using it she decides she likes it and keeps it. Wouldn't need to explain that all in one movie maybe the costume & claws in her first appearance and cat-o-ninetails in her second. Just some ideas. :yay:

She could have been a very good gymnast when she was younger. And her fighting ability could be explained by many years of crime & living on the streets. What do you think? :word:

In a word? I think it's forced. A very good child gymnast does not equate to leaping from building to building, and living on the streets increases prostitution skills, not fighting ability. Even though it's conceivable for her to put together a catwoman halloween costume, WHY would she do it? If she needs to hide her face she buys a ski mask, just like all cat burgulars. And we're not even going to go into learning to use a whip or stretching out her story over two movies.

I would adapt Catwoman as a high tech jewel thief and use the cat-reminicent goggles from recent comics as her favorite tech. She does things exactly as her father taught her and not necessarily able to travel like Batman she knows a few getaway tricks and of course, Selina and Bruce vibe completely... I would change the game so that Batman and Catwoman Do NOT click... at all. Bitter enemies. Makes the reveal so much cooler if there's no mirror to their in an out-of-costume lives.

As for pain, let "Venom" be some tweaked Adrenale and make him a muscular hitman. His muscles don't need to double in size for him to be stronger... and pumping adrenaline is something REAL people do. Being a hitman too. All better. Bane's a helluva lot more realistic than Joker, who survives getting his face bleached...

[killingyouguy]

In a word? I think it's forced. A very good child gymnast does not equate to leaping from building to building, and living on the streets increases prostitution skills, not fighting ability. Even though it's conceivable for her to put together a catwoman halloween costume, WHY would she do it? If she needs to hide her face she buys a ski mask, just like all cat burgulars. And we're not even going to go into learning to use a whip or stretching out her story over two movies.

I would adapt Catwoman as a high tech jewel thief and use the cat-reminicent goggles from recent comics as her favorite tech. She does things exactly as her father taught her and not necessarily able to travel like Batman she knows a few getaway tricks and of course, Selina and Bruce vibe completely... I would change the game so that Batman and Catwoman Do NOT click... at all. Bitter enemies. Makes the reveal so much cooler if there's no mirror to their in an out-of-costume lives.

Uh, no thanks. Selina Kyle's father was a drunken laybout who killed himself after his wife did. Whatever she learnt from him it certainly wasn't burglery. In most interpretations she was on the streets in her early life, often as a prostitute (although usually only for a short while after not turning a trick). She also seems to learn her skills in this period, working with numerous criminal elements. Like I said, maybe she goes for something a bit more theatrical after seeing Batman and a catlike disguise appeals to her on personal level. I certainly want a more traditional Catwoman outfit then the more modern day interpretation, but as long as they get her character right I don't care what she wears. EDIT: I agree with the Selina/Bruce clicking and Batman/Catwoman not (well at least not much).

But if you're looking for a comic book movie to be entirely based in reality, with realistic explanations for everything, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

[GL1]

I stated pretty clearly that I want the illusion of realism. If you don't understand the difference between giving something the illusion of reality and basing something in reality, then you'll have to either study up or listen up.

There needs to be a reason why Catwoman is so agile, talented with a whip and capable of stealing jewels. Using her father goes against comics, I understand that, but 'living on the streets' is not an origin for an olympic gymnast world class jewel thief who's nice with a cat-o-nine tails... it just isn't... you might as well make her be able to fly cuz she did good on her SATs...

Any motivation will do to put on a costume, but establishing her at a competitive skill level requires explanation... or wil she get Cat powers, like Pfeiffer??? Perhaps if she gets pimped by/to a world class theif he might take a shine to her and apprentice her or whatever, but that would mean making that guy a sizable supporting character, imho...

But if you're looking for a comic book movie to be entirely based in comics, with comic book explanations for everything, you're going to be sorely disappointed. :p

[killingyouguy]

There needs to be a reason why Catwoman is so agile, talented with a whip and capable of stealing jewels. Using her father goes against comics, I understand that, but 'living on the streets' is not an origin for an olympic gymnast world class jewel thief who's nice with a cat-o-nine tails... it just isn't... you might as well make her be able to fly cuz she did good on her SATs...

Gymnast at school when she was young (perhaps could have been world class if given the chance), sent to an orphanage after her parents died, left the orphanage and lived on the streets. Turned to prostitution and theft to stay alive. Taken in by gangs and honed her skills some more. If you want to explain her skills even better without introducing a new character you could have she was chosen by Ra's Al Ghul to join the League of Shadows (before he met Bruce). After spending time learning their ways, like Bruce, she doesn't accept their moral stance (killing people, destroying civilizations, etc.) and runs away. Turning back to her old ways of theft. Although her new skills give her confidence to tackle bigger 'jobs'. Her outfit could even be a modified LoS outfit (wihout the armour bits, etc.) with a cat-like mask. Explains her skills, gives her a link with Bruce/Batman (same teacher, different paths) and gives her some history & character. Could even explain her outfit if need be. :ninja:

[cujo66]

"Stick to the source or don't even attempt at making a good movie."

Carve that in stone and put it in front of every movie studio.

Hell, that's gonna be motto for life. "Stick to the Source"
I want it on my headstone.

[Crooklyn]

In a word? I think it's forced. A very good child gymnast does not equate to leaping from building to building
She doesn't really have to literally jump from building to building.

and living on the streets increases prostitution skills, not fighting ability.
Wow. :dry:

At least lie and tell me you just said this because she's a girl. I mean it'd still be a stupid comment, but lesser of two evils I guess.

Even though it's conceivable for her to put together a catwoman halloween costume, WHY would she do it? If she needs to hide her face she buys a ski mask, just like all cat burgulars. And we're not even going to go into learning to use a whip or stretching out her story over two movies.
Because she likes the cat persona, too cocky to not worry about covering her face fully, and the "whip" would serve the same purpose as a rope would, getting up and down between places. I mean none of this is really that much of a stretch.

I would change the game so that Batman and Catwoman Do NOT click... at all. Bitter enemies. Makes the reveal so much cooler if there's no mirror to their in an out-of-costume lives.
Batman Returns did this.

[GL1]

Gymnast at school when she was young (perhaps could have been world class if given the chance), sent to an orphanage after her parents died, left the orphanage and lived on the streets. Turned to prostitution and theft to stay alive. Taken in by gangs and honed her skills some more. If you want to explain her skills even better without introducing a new character you could have she was chosen by Ra's Al Ghul to join the League of Shadows (before he met Bruce). After spending time learning their ways, like Bruce, she doesn't accept their moral stance (killing people, destroying civilizations, etc.) and runs away. Turning back to her old ways of theft. Although her new skills give her confidence to tackle bigger 'jobs'. Her outfit could even be a modified LoS outfit (wihout the armour bits, etc.) with a cat-like mask. Explains her skills, gives her a link with Bruce/Batman (same teacher, different paths) and gives her some history & character. Could even explain her outfit if need be.

Hmm... that would be AN explanation, but it strays away a great deal from the comics, doncha think?

Carve that in stone and put it in front of every movie studio.

Hell, that's gonna be motto for life. "Stick to the Source"
I want it on my headstone.

Hmmm... a noble sentiment. Name a movie that sticks to the source. The well-loved and ludicrisly popular organic web shooting Spider-Man or the scared of bats white Ra's Al Ghul fighting Batman, also well loved and fortunate? Perhaps you can find a movie based on a true story that sticks to the source? I don't know of any.

She doesn't really have to literally jump from building to building.

True, but she has to be, basically, on Batman's level, physically and skill-wise in order to fight him, or perhaps just speedwise for there to be an adequate chase, and a scenario that is true to the comics and has the illusion of reality hasn't been stated yet... I'm still thinking though...

Wow. :dry:

At least lie and tell me you just said this because she's a girl. I mean it'd still be a stupid comment, but lesser of two evils I guess.

I'm basing it on documentaries I've seen about runaways and prostitutes. In comics, people of all genders who live on the streets become faster, stronger and often learn to fight, perhaps in an underground fighting ring or under the tutelage of a wise street teacher. In real life however, no such things happen. And, as a rule, prostitutes don't become jewel theives without something very signifcant intervening in their life.

Because she likes the cat persona, too cocky to not worry about covering her face fully, and the "whip" would serve the same purpose as a rope would, getting up and down between places. I mean none of this is really that much of a stretch.


Batman Returns did this.

There's reasons for her *wanting* these things, that's easy... but there's no explanation for her knowing how to use a whip all of a sudden, that IS a stretch (have you ever tried to use a whip!?). The statement you quoted from me specifically asks why is she so talented with a whip... I'm not sure you're actually reading my statements...

Again, it's not a question of whether her *motivation* makes sense...

[Crooklyn]

True, but she has to be, basically, on Batman's level, physically and skill-wise in order to fight him, or perhaps just speedwise for there to be an adequate chase, and a scenario that is true to the comics and has the illusion of reality hasn't been stated yet... I'm still thinking though...
Well yeah, you already said it...she really only needs to equal him in speed. Being smaller and in a tight-fitting suit would help out greatly in a chase scene.

I'm basing it on documentaries I've seen about runaways and prostitutes. In comics, people of all genders who live on the streets become faster, stronger and often learn to fight, perhaps in an underground fighting ring or under the tutelage of a wise street teacher. In real life however, no such things happen.
Gangs? I'd say that introduces you to the most violence.

And, as a rule, prostitutes don't become jewel theives without something very signifcant intervening in their life.
The prostitute thing really hasn't been accepted as Selina's origin, so they can exclude that. As for becoming a jewel thief, well...when your life's in the gutter, a skill in stealing would definitely encourage you to do it more. Money is the number one incentive.

There's reasons for her *wanting* these things, that's easy... but there's no explanation for her knowing how to use a whip all of a sudden, that IS a stretch (have you ever tried to use a whip!?). The statement you quoted from me specifically asks why is she so talented with a whip... I'm not sure you're actually reading my statements...
I don't see how such a small detail like that should be covered. Honestly, who cares? It's a whip. Judging from BB, we're most likely NOT going to go into Selina's origin very much, if at all, and are most likely introduced to her as already taking up the Catwoman persona. This is a Batman film after all.

[killingyouguy]

Hmm... that would be AN explanation, but it strays away a great deal from the comics, doncha think?

A lot better than 'daddy taught me to be a world-class jewel thief'. Which has no basis in the comics at all and sounds like a bad 80's movie. :o