JMS off Amazing

[kainedamo]

For me to poop on.

I think you missed my point about JMS bringing MJ and Pete back together. Alot of writers didn't think it could or should be done. So you have JMS to thank for doing it and doing it well.

Did you not like issue #36?

I don't think any writers have written May as well as JMS since he's come aboard. If you think someone has done just as well if not better, feel free to point them out.

Anyway, my point is is that JMS is a good writer and has done good stories. Some people here (not all of you) are too quick to say JMS is the worst writer in history or that he's complete crap when that isn't the case. He's a talented writer and he has proved that during his time on AMZ. Two bad stories (arguably completely the fault of Joe Q) don't make him a bad writer.

[Doc Destruction]

4 bad stories AT LEAST.

Sins Past
Sins Remembered
The Other
Crappy Molten Man guy

[Kevin]

4 bad stories AT LEAST.

Sins Past
Sins Remembered
The Other
Crappy Molten Man guyHe didn't write Sins Remembered, and "the crappy molten man guy" story was called "Skin Deep," and yes, it was complete crap.

[The Joker]

ASM#36 was touching, but there were some parts that were just too stupid to overlook. The main one being the entire "Villians can feel sad too" part. Dr. Doom crying over something bad happening to America? Never gonna happen. Doc Ock....maybe, although he's tried to do worse to New York countless times in the past.


Doc Ock......NEVER!!!

We were only discussing this the other day in my Ock fan thread. Ock and Kingpin were completely out of place there. Likewise with Doom. Magneto I could see being there. But not the others.

Ock is a terrorist, who wouldn't bat an eye lid at the loss of a few hundred lives. He's tried to do much worse to New York, and the world.

JMS didn't have to put Marvel's nastiest villains there to illustrate just how tragic 9/11 was.

[kainedamo]

4 bad stories AT LEAST.

Sins Past
Sins Remembered
The Other
Crappy Molten Man guy


Jenkins wrote Sins Remembered.

And I'll give ya crappy Molten Man guy. There is noway that story should have been 6 issues long. It would have been alright as two issues. Overall, it bored the hell out of me and was unnecassery.

[kainedamo]

Doc Ock......NEVER!!!

We were only discussing this the other day in my Ock fan thread. Ock and Kingpin were completely out of place there. Likewise with Doom. Magneto I could see being there. But not the others.

Ock is a terrorist, who wouldn't bat an eye lid at the loss of a few hundred lives. He's tried to do much worse to New York, and the world.

JMS didn't have to put Marvel's nastiest villains there to illustrate just how tragic 9/11 was.


The way I saw it, their appearance wasn't to be taken completetly literally, if you know what I mean. An issue where people could let continuity slide considering what the story was about.

[Kevin]

Jenkins wrote Sins Remembered.

And I'll give ya crappy Molten Man guy. There is noway that story should have been 6 issues long. It would have been alright as two issues. Overall, it bored the hell out of me and was unnecassery.I thought is was only 4 issues:huh:

[kainedamo]

Was it?? I can't remember. I think it was 6 issues... I remember thinking it was too long anyway.

[Kevin]

Wait, let me check... "Skin deep" Issues 515 - 518. 516 was my first "Amazing" issue that I ever bought.

[OctoHaz]

The way I saw it, their appearance wasn't to be taken completetly literally, if you know what I mean. An issue where people could let continuity slide considering what the story was about.
The problem is that it was completely against character and utterly unnecessary. Someone like Kingpin would conceivably mourn the WTC. But the loss of human life would not bother Otto Octavius; the only way he'd be upset at 9/11 would be if one of the less than a handful of people he actually cared about (like May Parker) had been a victim.

So even if one takes the 9/11 comic purely metaphorically, it still doesn't really work to have those villains there.

[Marc]

I think you missed my point about JMS bringing MJ and Pete back together. Alot of writers didn't think it could or should be done. So you have JMS to thank for doing it and doing it well.

Did you not like issue #36?

I don't think any writers have written May as well as JMS since he's come aboard. If you think someone has done just as well if not better, feel free to point them out.

Anyway, my point is is that JMS is a good writer and has done good stories. Some people here (not all of you) are too quick to say JMS is the worst writer in history or that he's complete crap when that isn't the case. He's a talented writer and he has proved that during his time on AMZ. Two bad stories (arguably completely the fault of Joe Q) don't make him a bad writer.

JMS split them apart in the first place, he wanted Spidey on his own to 'focus' on. To thank him for that seems insane to say the least. Same as thanking him for not writing a poor Aunt May. Its not an accomplishment to avoid writing crap, its the standard expectation. I don't think he has advanced her character at all to deserve plaudits. Making her think she knows more about what Peter does than Peter, telling him what to do when he got along fine all this time on his own... well its dumb.

I never liked the Morlun story in the first place, I recall being battered for comments against the story. WIth insistance that the magic stuff is just implied and meant nothing etc..

As for 36, it was supposed to be literal. Again JMS at the time defended it spouting BS about how Doom cares about the people and has a line. Riiiight. And I didn't like it either, I thought it was total self-righteous pap. As if that event is the only horror story in the real world worth telling and validating. Its also shooting yourself in the foot to do contemporary things with timeless characters for obvious reasons.

Its an opinion in that regard as to how bad he was, I think he is the worst for many reasons. Active destruction of characters is more negative than the multiple mediocre writers in Spidey's history, and I simply cannot think of another writer to do as much damage to the core mythos. I think he can be a great writer, and I don't think he has come close to being good with Spidey, other titles yes, spidey no. Ignoring opinion though, there are so many factual faults throughout his run to point to as already done that to say he has been great just doesn't wash.

And please the Joe Q stuff is tiring, the guy is an idiot for unleashing JMS but he didn't put a gun to JMS' head about anything. JMS only had a problem and tried to pass it all on after he got the bad reactions. Couldn't simply hold up his hands and say he did wrong, even now he can't as he simply cannot admit he is wrong... ever.

[diespinne]

Jenkins wrote Sins Remembered.


Actually, Samm Barnes--JMS's protege--wrote Sins Remembered.

[kainedamo]

JMS split them apart in the first place, he wanted Spidey on his own to 'focus' on. To thank him for that seems insane to say the least. Same as thanking him for not writing a poor Aunt May. Its not an accomplishment to avoid writing crap, its the standard expectation. I don't think he has advanced her character at all to deserve plaudits. Making her think she knows more about what Peter does than Peter, telling him what to do when he got along fine all this time on his own... well its dumb.

I never liked the Morlun story in the first place, I recall being battered for comments against the story. WIth insistance that the magic stuff is just implied and meant nothing etc..

As for 36, it was supposed to be literal. Again JMS at the time defended it spouting BS about how Doom cares about the people and has a line. Riiiight. And I didn't like it either, I thought it was total self-righteous pap. As if that event is the only horror story in the real world worth telling and validating. Its also shooting yourself in the foot to do contemporary things with timeless characters for obvious reasons.

Its an opinion in that regard as to how bad he was, I think he is the worst for many reasons. Active destruction of characters is more negative than the multiple mediocre writers in Spidey's history, and I simply cannot think of another writer to do as much damage to the core mythos. I think he can be a great writer, and I don't think he has come close to being good with Spidey, other titles yes, spidey no. Ignoring opinion though, there are so many factual faults throughout his run to point to as already done that to say he has been great just doesn't wash.

And please the Joe Q stuff is tiring, the guy is an idiot for unleashing JMS but he didn't put a gun to JMS' head about anything. JMS only had a problem and tried to pass it all on after he got the bad reactions. Couldn't simply hold up his hands and say he did wrong, even now he can't as he simply cannot admit he is wrong... ever.


I was reading all that taking it in, and then I got to "I think he is the worst for many reasons." That is simply an opinion I cannot take seriously. It's a childish opinion.

To me, it's the equivalent of someone saying "Batman Begins is the worst movie I've ever seen". I can't take that kind of opinion seriously.

And JMS didn't split MJ and Peter up. They were seperated when he came onto the title.

Same as thanking him for not writing a poor Aunt May.

I think his Aunt May is exceptionally good. It's something to be applauded, yes. So many writers in the past had no idea how to handle her, simply repeating everything Stan Lee had done with her.

and I don't think he has come close to being good with Spidey, other titles yes, spidey no.

*shrugs* You don't think he has come close to being good? You sure hard to please. I can see where peoples complaints lie, and I have complaints about his time on Spidey too. But I mean... he's done some exceptional work. Are you a writer yourself? Even the most adamant JMS haters admit his writing is good its just his ideas they don't like. What is it you want from a Spidey title exactly?

[Doc Destruction]

Too hard to please?

NO, the fans have let them lower the freaking bar for excellence, and the writers are stepping all over them.

[kainedamo]

JMS has been called one of the best Spidey writers by several critics :huh:

When someone honestly says that JMS is "the worst" and that his stuff "comes nowhere close to being good", I have to question whether or not we're reading the same stuff.

[Marc]

I was reading all that taking it in, and then I got to "I think he is the worst for many reasons." That is simply an opinion I cannot take seriously. It's a childish opinion.

To me, it's the equivalent of someone saying "Batman Begins is the worst movie I've ever seen". I can't take that kind of opinion seriously.

And JMS didn't split MJ and Peter up. They were seperated when he came onto the title.

Childish because you disagree... yeaaah... double standards... heard of 'em? I can put forth a factual analysis of his run listing the 'amazing' amount of c0ck-up's he has made. Some of the worst I have read most certainly. The best you got for 'greatness' was MJ coming back after HE broke them up, and Aunt May not being written as badly as others in recent times... which REAALLLY isn't saying much.

As if I can take people trying to justify actual factual contradictions throughout his run. Then when he digs his hole by admitting it was all on him, pull him out using Joe Q as an excuse. Sorry, but glass houses and machine guns do not a good rebuttal make.

.... yes, at his request. He wanted to come in running was the expression at the time I recall, so it was setup for him.

I think his Aunt May is exceptionally good. It's something to be applauded, yes. So many writers in the past had no idea how to handle her, simply repeating everything Stan Lee had done with her.

Whats she done then...

*shrugs* You don't think he has come close to being good? You sure hard to please. I can see where peoples complaints lie, and I have complaints about his time on Spidey too. But I mean... he's done some exceptional work. Are you a writer yourself? Even the most adamant JMS haters admit his writing is good its just his ideas they don't like. What is it you want from a Spidey title exactly?

I don't like many mainstream titles, I give praise where due though. I think to just limit it to his idea's being bad is silly considering how much he has to change characters to fit into these bad story idea's. Characters define the writing, so no didn't like it. Spidey being some 24/7 dope, not what I consider interesting. And the cast of characters beyond Spidey are few and far between so not like I can look elsewhere within the title. What do I want, the characters to y'know... be in-character, for everything to make sense as in logical progression and for Spidey to be the star in his own title. Many other things but the basics I would consider... basic.

[kainedamo]

Childish because you disagree... yeaaah... double standards... heard of 'em? I can put forth a factual analysis of his run listing the 'amazing' amount of c0ck-up's he has made. Some of the worst I have read most certainly. The bets you got for 'greatness' was MJ coming back after HE broke them up, and Aunt May not being written as badly as others in recent times... which REAALLLY isn't saying much.

He didn't break them up, you lunatic!! And even if JMS requested that they be split up before he came on (I find that highly unlikely) he wrote the two characters beautifully. And it's quite a popular opinion that JMS' Aunt May is one of the best.

Whats she done then...

What's she done? A heck of alot, when you think about it. There was that issue where Peter and May had an entire issue of heart to heart talking. When was the last time we've ever had that? She's a stronger person now. She's nowhere near as feeble as she used to be. She's a rock for Peter, instead of a burden. There was that flashback she had where she was at the hospital with Ben. That was scary, but also a heard rending memory for May. Again, adding depth and strength we had never seen before to her character.


I don't like many mainstream titles, I give praise where due though. I think to just limit it to his idea's being bad is silly considering how much he has to change characters to fit into these bad story idea's. Characters define the writing, so no didn't like it. Spidey being some 24/7 dope, not what I consider interesting. And the cast of characters beyond Spidey are few and far between so not like I can look elsewhere within the title. What do I want, the characters to y'know... be in-character, for everything to make sense as in logical progression and for Spidey to be the star in his own title. Many other things but the basics I would consider... basic.

And that's pretty much what we've had the whole way through JMS' run.

Who made Peter a high school science teacher? JMS. Brilliant issue where he stops the kid with the gun, by the way.

Characters define the writing - absolutely correct. Who here can say JMS hasn't always centered his stories around the characters and how they play into Peter's life? Peter's relationships with MJ and May are solid the whole way throughout JMS' run.

The characters have always been in character. Peter has always questioned and refused to believe Ezekiel's theory on his powers.

You want Spidey to be the star of his own title? When JMS came aboard, the books were more centered around Peter than they were in a long time!

For the last 5 years or so, I've laughed out loud reading AMZ so many times I can't even keep count. There have been heart warming moments between the characters. The relationships have always been solid. And I've even been made to cry - something no other comic book has EVER made me do. JMS made me care about Spidey in a way no other writer had - and Spidey was already my favourite superhero!

I'm quite fearful of what the books will be like without him. Part of me wishes the Civil War didn't come about, because it's sort of got in the way of JMS. Joe Q too has got in the way of JMS. Meh, I'm rambiling.

[Doc Destruction]

And clearly delusional.

Sorry, but he just wasn't a good writer. Overhyped hack.

[kainedamo]

Well, we have very different tastes then.

Answer me this, Doc. What do you think of Joss Whedon's X-Men? And did you like Mark Millar's MK Spidey run?

[Doc Destruction]

Fair enough.

I enjoyed Whedon's first X-Men arc. The second one was horrid. It was a blatant rip-off of an old storyline that was told better back then. The third one was okay, but predictable.

Millar's run was very good for some time. I did NOT like Gargan Venom or Norman being behind everything AGAIN. The end was very anti-climactic. I'd give it a B-.

[SpideyInATree]

Based on what 'boss'? One of those two stories, the totem **** dominated his entire run... 'the rest' ain't much and it certainly wasn't all good.

I loved the classic 500 issue with adverts for some nothing miniseries, oh and Uncle Ben in a magic box... awesome. Oh and his buddy he beat up in school to look cool coming back to burn stuff, genius. Which of course reminds us of all the original characters he has given us, vampire dude, octopus dude, hulk dude, molten dude, goblin dude, the totally new and original guy with spider powers just like Pete's... I mean its a never ending list of originality and genius. I for one am enriched.

Lets not forget the touching moments either, Dr Doom crying over dead people. Spider-Man struggling, for 2 seconds, to come to terms with Gwen and MJ's utter betrayal. His death, heart wrenching. It was also quite the feat to keep ramping up spider-man's powers yet at the same time make him lose more and more to lesser foes. Ah, and those powers eh... talking to insects... thats been a huge influence on Spidey. I hear there will be a spin off movie franchise with Spidey traveling the world talking to Spiders and getting them to do all his thinking for him.

I was a major JMS fan, his start of the run was dodgey and got worse as it went on. Everything seemed to be either out of character, contradict past events or involve some magic or deus ex machina. But yeah, failing basic writing standards and pointing out the fact makes one an emo... :huh: Spider-Man has been a weak, whining, toe the line, idiot for what seems a lifetime at this point. He's been a dullard at the best of times. Even if you happen to like idiocy underlining the character, its is not the character, it is at fault and is therefore wrong. You may like him being retarded but the character's intelligence is already established and stated as intelligent, so any contradiction to that is wrong no matter how 'good'.

kainedamo - Utter BS, at the time JMS was defending that ***** to the hilt. He was pissing on people from above saying how he had done his homework and it was perfectly acceptable for Gwen to drop knickers for 'charisma'. Only once everyone had basically pointed out he was a hack did it amazingly all become Joe Q's idea, some homework. And what sodding homework do you need to do for Spidey in that instance, why is he on the title if he has no clue about the whole Gwen not being a **** for idiotic plot devices.

Sounds to me like you've got something stuck up your butt. And I hope it's not JMS.

I don't really recall anybody saying that JMS was super original. He was refreshing. He did something that nobody else has done before, he questioned whether Spider-Man's powers were by chance or predetermined. Just like things that happen to real life human beings. Is it all just luck and chance or is it all predetermined? It was interesting. Do you agree that it should have been drug on for as long as it was? You probably don't. You seem to not agree with anything unless it's someone around here bad mouthing something.

The fact of the matter is that JMS breathed fresh air into Spider-Man when he came on the book. He and Romita Jr. really did a great job, in my opinion. Yes, he stunk the place up with Sins Past. We GET the point. We got it when it was first released. And almost THREE YEARS LATER WE GET THE FREAKIN' POINT. It SUCKED. The Other. SUCKED. I get that TOO.

But he wasn't horrible by any means. Your opinions on Peter being written a weak, whining idiot I completely disagree with. It's called story. Build up. Look at the situation that Peter Parker was in. Living at Stark Tower. A part of the Avengers. His family living happily ever after. Tony Stark giving him a job. A new costume, whether you like the look or not it was ten times better than wearing a piece of freakin' cloth. I never saw anything wrong with Peter Parker's character. The only character that's SERIOUSLY out of character has been Aunt May. I'm down with how JMS made her into a stronger woman and all...but we went from frail old, "I'm gonna have a heart attack and die at ANY moment" Aunt May to a "I can own The Chameleon and have a laugh about it" Aunt May.

As I said earlier in the thread. Some posters around here obviously are taking their comic book reading extremely seriously, much more seriously than I ever have or probably will. But even with the guy LEAVING the book now people are still talking like the guy pissed in their cornflakes and then banged their mom. All the guy is, really, is a mid aged, bald man who writes a comic book called The Amazing Spider-Man. And yet people spend precious minutes of their lives tearing the guy down because he doesn't write to their standards. Listen...I disliked things about his story but I'm the type of person to either move on and hope things get better or I just DROP THE BOOK and leave things at a standstill.

As Joe Quesada said in the latest Wizard. It doesn't matter whether people like you or dislike you...they are STILL talking about you. And that's much better than somebody not even mentioning you at all. And whether you like Quesada or not the guy is right when he says that.

How many people are still going to be talking about JMS' run around here after he's gone? Trust me...a lot of you are going to be. It's like the Howard Stern syndrome. You hate something so passionately yet all you do is TALK about that. Waste your hate on something, that quite honestly isn't that important.

JMS is leaving and many are happy that he is. But if you seriously think that things are going to drastically change, you're going to be in for a rude awakening.

[Cullen]

As Joe Quesada said in the latest Wizard. It doesn't matter whether people like you or dislike you...they are STILL talking about you. And that's much better than somebody not even mentioning you at all. And whether you like Quesada or not the guy is right when he says that.

How many people are still going to be talking about JMS' run around here after he's gone? Trust me...a lot of you are going to be. It's like the Howard Stern syndrome. You hate something so passionately yet all you do is TALK about that. Waste your hate on something, that quite honestly isn't that important.

I find the whole "It doesn't matter whether people like you or dislike you...they are STILL talking about you" line of thought to be wrong headed. It DOES matter.

I would rather have someone say of my work, "I hated the story, but it was well writen" than "I hated the story, it was a crappy job." Which is exactly what is being said about "Sins Past", about the Totem arc, about "The Other", and the vast majority of Marvel's current output.
JMS is leaving and many are happy that he is. But if you seriously think that things are going to drastically change, you're going to be in for a rude awakening.Here's where I break with tradition and agree with you completely. I see no reason to celibrate JMS leaving the title until we find out who is replacing him. For his faults, JMS was a capable author. The next writer may not be as good.

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Again JMS at the time defended it spouting BS about how Doom cares about the people and has a line. Riiiight.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'm fairly positive that Doom's rule in Latveria was a benevolent one. They were treated well.

Doom's not the kind of character to just treat people well because he feels like he has to. If he doesn't want to do it, he won't. So for him to treat his subjects as a benevolent ruler as opposed to a oppressive dictator....well, if you ask me, that shows that he at least cares a little bit for his subjects at the very least, no?

And damn you guys are turning a mountain into a molehill. Sins Past, if probably the worst idea of all time, was at least readable up until part 3 or 4 or so. The Other sucked, but we all know that.

The rest of his run wasn't so terrible though. Everyone else has already made the arguments so I won't repeat them here; I will, however, side with SIAT and say "stop *****ing." Sins Past happened years ago. Get over it.

Or maybe we should start flaming Mackie? I mean, it's not so long ago he was the one ****ing with Peter Parker...

[Doc Destruction]

Sounds to me like you've got something stuck up your butt. And I hope it's not JMS. [quote]

And yet, you get offended when someone slams you.

[quote]I don't really recall anybody saying that JMS was super original. He was refreshing. He did something that nobody else has done before,

Yes, but most of it was terrible.

The fact of the matter is that JMS breathed fresh air into Spider-Man when he came on the book. He and Romita Jr. really did a great job, in my opinion. Yes, he stunk the place up with Sins Past. We GET the point. We got it when it was first released. And almost THREE YEARS LATER WE GET THE FREAKIN' POINT. It SUCKED. The Other. SUCKED. I get that TOO.

Then what the hell are you complaining about? You GET WHY HE SUCKS. CASE CLOSED.

How many people are still going to be talking about JMS' run around here after he's gone? Trust me...a lot of you are going to be. It's like the Howard Stern syndrome. You hate something so passionately yet all you do is TALK about that. Waste your hate on something, that quite honestly isn't that important.

You're correct. Years from now, we'll be remembering how awful his run really was.

JMS is leaving and many are happy that he is. But if you seriously think that things are going to drastically change, you're going to be in for a rude awakening.

I'll take that bet.

[Dangerous]

Re- Kainedamo, I will finally get round to kicking your ass in here,
once I get a bit more time online at the weekend. :cwink:

[kainedamo]

Fair enough.

I enjoyed Whedon's first X-Men arc. The second one was horrid. It was a blatant rip-off of an old storyline that was told better back then. The third one was okay, but predictable.

Millar's run was very good for some time. I did NOT like Gargan Venom or Norman being behind everything AGAIN. The end was very anti-climactic. I'd give it a B-.


Sorry, forgot all about this. I asked because I find that alot of people think the sun shines out of Joss Whedons' ass and that Mark Millars' MK Spidey run is the best thing since sliced bread. I consider both to be highly overrated. Not just that - I hate Joss Whedons' X-Men run. And while Mark Millars' MK Spidey run had alot of entertaining action, the dialogue was absolutely awful. The story was highly unoriginal. In fact, I had written a fairly similar Spidey fan fic some four or five years ago when I was young and foolish enough to waste time on such things. And then I find a professional writer actually rips off my lame ideas!!

I just brought it up to see what kind of tastes you had.

[Kevin]

the best thing about mk spidey was the whole thing with black cat.

[kguillou]

If JMS does leave, all that is ask for him to do before leaves is please please please explain to us who the HELL IS Morlun? Its been like 4 years since he introduced this guy and we dont know jack about him. And yet, this is the guy that killed spider-man. If JMS could do one last story explaining who morlun is, his motives, his powers etc. i'd be satisfied and i would forgive him for his past stories.

[Kevin]

I should start buying amazing again...

[diespinne]

If JMS does leave, all that is ask for him to do before leaves is please please please explain to us who the HELL IS Morlun? Its been like 4 years since he introduced this guy and we dont know jack about him. And yet, this is the guy that killed spider-man. If JMS could do one last story explaining who morlun is, his motives, his powers etc. i'd be satisfied and i would forgive him for his past stories.

Yeah... and how did Morlun just reappear in The Other story arc when he was more-or-less destroyed at the end of his first arc? Also, why was he only seen by Spider-man and Mary Jane during The Other? And while we're at it... why are all of Spider-man's vampiric enemies named "Mor"-something?

Well, the easy answer: crappy writing.

[Kevin]

...because it begins with "mor" it's crappy writing...?...*sigh*

[diespinne]

Oh, come on, COMICBOY-- give me a little bit more credit than that. The "Mor-" bit was just tacked-on as a joke. But yeah, he could have had a cooler name... :oldrazz:

Seriously, though... considering Morlun played such a big role in JMS's run, it's odd that certain things like how he came back from the dead were totally ignored. I guess most ppl don't care since The Other is considered horrible all around.

[Kevin]

I do agreed with the "What the Hell is up with Morlun?" crowd.

[TwilightPro101]

Morlun mentioned some rebirth of some kind. I vaguely recall it, but for some reason the particular plot detail didn't stand out.

[kguillou]

Also, why was he only seen by Spider-man and Mary Jane during The Other?

They weren't the only ones. After Morlun beat the life outta spidey, there were a bunch of cops who shot at him and they were killed easily by morlun. So dont worry about him being a figment of peter's imagination. Besides why would spidey beat himself to death?

[Spade]

Morlun mentioned some rebirth of some kind. I vaguely recall it, but for some reason the particular plot detail didn't stand out.

That is, hopefully, one of the many things that will never be spoken of again after JMS is gone. Superman fighting Doomsday in Prey had no real impact. The bad idea to begin with was making Morlun Spidey's killer. They could only make it worse by bringing him back.

[diespinne]

They weren't the only ones. After Morlun beat the life outta spidey, there were a bunch of cops who shot at him and they were killed easily by morlun. So dont worry about him being a figment of peter's imagination. Besides why would spidey beat himself to death?

Oh yeah, that's right-- I forgot about the cops and the other bystanders seeing him. Funny how no other superheroes ever saw him or got to tussle with him though... or did I miss that too?

I kind of wish Morlun was just a figment of Spidey's imagination... that might have been interesting-- Spidey beating himself to death due to some spider-instinct that understood that his body was ready to molt and decided to expedite the process... heh...

[diespinne]

That is, hopefully, one of the many things that will never be spoken of again after JMS is gone. Superman fighting Doomsday in Prey had no real impact. The bad idea to begin with was making Morlun Spidey's killer. They could only make it worse by bringing him back.

Agreed! I hope Morlun and the whole Other storyline is either never brought up again or explained away in some way. So many unbelievable "what the?!" moments that ended-up amounting to nothing...

[AmaznSpider-Fan]

What pissed me off about JMS the most is that you can clearly see he's a quality writer and that he gets the gist of each character. Hell, I'd even go out on a limb and say that he's one of the few Spidey writers that really knew how to write the Pete/MJ relationship really well. For whatever reason though, he chose to go against the grain and try to change too many things that have been Spider-lore for way too long. I'm all about change, but not at the sake of stories and events that already took place. It's like taking what someone wrote 30 years ago and changing it into something completely different.

Unfortunately, I don't think that his memory will be overshadowed by Sins Past, and The Other.

[Venom Drool]

also.. you cannot retcon the issues brought up in an EVENT as big as his involvewment in the Civil War, his unmasking, his rebirth (although it might be forgotten). his kidnapped child is still in the MU somewhere, we havent forgotten, its just tht most dont care.. .like the spider stingers... ill always remember those.

[kainedamo]

The whole Morlun thing...

I'd prefer if there was some sort of explanation in the future. I would like to see Morlun be a recurring character... but only sparringly. If he's used, he should only be portrayed as nothing other than a huge threat. It would be cool to see him kill off some c list heroes or something, or travel to an alternate dimension (ala The Fury) and kill off a whole world of heroes. It would be nice to see other heroes have a stab at him, but his menace would be undermined if he's defeated by anyone other than Spidey.

[Dangerous]

It's these types of childish opinions that make it incredibly hard for me to take JMS haters seriously. It's like when you talk about movies, and someone says "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is the WORST movie I have ever saw!!!". You have guys like that in movie debates, and it's totally eye rolling.

Total eye rolling aside, I myself find CTHD to be a very tiresome movie, and since I am not of Japanese origin unintentionally humorous. No matter what anyone says, wire work is lame.
If I want to see a martial arts movie I will watch Bruce Lee or Tony Jaa.

My opinions are not childish, but it is childish of you to suggest they are. It’s just a fact that JMS is hack.
We have all been through this a million times but he basically wrote the two worst Spider-man arcs ever within two years.
First,- in Sins Past he delves into Spider-mans past to concoct an arc of absolute garbage to try and define his boring and essentially (up till this point) mediocre run. He attempts this by defiling the memory of one of the greatest and most important characters in the Spidey mythos.

He claimed to be able to do this in an arc that would make perfect sense continuity wise. In actuality to get this turd to float, he had to invent a 6 month holiday that never happened were Gwen took up residence in Paris for an extended holiday.

Now, I don’t know how long you have reading SM for, or how many back issues you have read, but here’s a hint- Gwen never went to Paris while she was w/ Peter.

No other writer ever invented things that never happened just for the sake of creating sensationalist arcs w/ key supporting cast members that have been dead for years. See where I’m going w/ this?
JMS is a hack, too bad if you can’t see that.

I really don't give a rats ass what percentage of board members agree or disagree. Say what you like about JMS, but he is still a talented writer.

Talented at writing boring SM stories, or arcs that lack any understanding of continuity, or correct characterizations of PP..
Il give you that.

Look at AMZ #36.

Vol2 #36 was good, but it was an emotional issue for everyone.
I don’t think he is especially talented for writing it, any writer back in 2001/02 would have turned out a similar effort.
Only they probably would not have made the mistake of depicting Dr Doom and co as giving a s-hit.

Look at the many great character moments.

Well he made MJ and May real people again, that was about it.

JMS was the one that saved the marriage.

More likely it was an editorial decision.


I don't read comics for character cameos, I read comics partly for heartfelt character moments, and JMS provides that in bucketloads.

Good for you.
I read Spider-man in the hope that the comic has a writer who has at least a simple understanding of how continuity works, and that he/she can grasp the basics. Y’know, like Spidey does not kill.


Again, say what you like about Sins Past. You may not like it, but it's an incredibly heart felt story.

Apart from it not making any sense continuity wise, and because of it we can clearly see it was garbage manufactured by Joe Q and JMS for the sole purpose of shock value and spiking the sales.
It also portrays PP out of character, plus turns out MJ betrayed him by lying to him for years, and you know what?,- for PP that’s fine too.
That sure is great writing.


Joe Q is responsible for many things that people blame JMS for. The new costume, his identity being public, Norman being the father of Gwens kids, The Other being a total mess.

No JMS is responsible for what he is responsible for.

Some of the arcs may have been crafted by the editorial, but if JMS had any integrity as the supposed Spidey comic fan he professes to be, or any respect for the characters, he would not have touched any of it w/ a barge pole. He would have just jumped to a different book.
If you like that stuff, that’s fine.
To me and most other Spidey fans its pure trash.

[dan1]

1. Peter becoming a teacher was one huge waste of storyline potential. Besides the 2 or 3 storylines that actually involved teaching and students, what exactly has his new job done for the character? NOTHING. There have been no supporting characters spun out of the storyline, there have been no memorable arcs spun out of the storyline. And the fact that he even still teaches after being unmasked is complete and utter BS!!!! Peter never should have been a teacher. If anything, he should have become a scientist. He's a genius with the potential to become ALMOST on par with Reed Richards... yet they wasted it by making him a teacher that is always late for class and now puts CHILDREN'S lives in danger. So much for responsibility.

2. Yeah, that was great, I did enjoy that. But I would have enjoyed it even more had May stayed dead back in #400.

Exactly, even the "good ideas" were cra p when JMS put them to paper.

If you think his run on Spider-Man was great, do yourself a favor and read lots of backissues from the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's and I assure you, you will change your mind.

As matter of fact, he will probably start to offend you.

[Kevin]

I have read those issues and MY opinion still stands that JMS' Spider-man was great/different (not good or bad different, but different nevertheless.) What else you got? And I'm not trying to be rude, I just saying everyone have different tastes

[dan1]

I just read about this earlier in the day in the latest Wizard. He's been on Spider-Man for six years, that's a freakin' long ass run. Too bad J.M. DeMatteis or Tom Defalco didn't get a six year run on Amazing. :csad:

But I think it's good for him to bow out. He's had a long run on the title and really got to say something with the character, albeit good and horribly bad. :oldrazz:

I really loved his early ASM work with Romita Jr.

Book of Ezekiel was a fabulous piece of work in the Spider-Man mythos but too bad The Other destroyed that. And Sins Past, of course, was the penultimate sucktastic blowhard piece of crap we all have come to know. Well, not really THAT bad of a story. It just didn't make ANY lick of sense.

But what I'm most excited to see, unlike the people having geekasms over his departure, is if Loeb/Campbell are taking over Amazing...because that would be AMAZING! Hahaha, I kill me! :wow:

But, yeah, too many people are taking this way too well. People seem to act like JMS has been pissing in their cornflakes for the past six years.

How many times have you defended JMS, and you admit that 2/3rds of his major stuff was crap and you know Loeb/Campbell would do well because they would respect past writers' efforts.

Believe it, that I am not trying to pick a fight.
Again, you're on your high horse that god forbid people are happy about this guy leaving ASM. ASM was the 1 Spider-Man comic that is suppossed to make sense from issue#1 to present, and you know he couldn't give a crud about the past. He manipulated it and sometimes pretended it didn't exist and you equate that to pissing on our cornflakes. I equate it to someone who didn't understand the essence of what made Spider-Man comics so endearing in the first place.

He thought he did, but he didn't, flat out.

Only quesiton now is, does the next writer sweep JMS' Totem, Sins' Past crap under the carpet, have Xavier wipe out everyone's memory about Civil War and find a way to break the news to Spider-Man that his metomorphosis and Gwens' ****iness were manipulations by a sick, twisted, super-villian (cough cough writer)? Or acknowledge what JMS has done and work with it?

That is the question to learn the answer from in a few months.

I hope, yes truly hope, that JMS' changes are written out of Spider-Man in a way that makes chronological, comic book sense. And man, what a sweet day that would be. A lesson learned for JMS too, no? I mean, his cr ap would become completely, utterly irrelevant, and he would learn the correct way to move on into a completely different direction, a way that doesn't entail sweeping recent supporting characters and storyline away without at least acknowledging them and why you moved on, on the written page.

If you don't see the relevance in the damage JMS did by manipulating the timeline and usually forgetting it all together, then maybe you are the type of person who should read Spider-Man comics for instantly gratifying fun, and not get involved in an in depth debate on a message board thread that takes the comic book very seriously from ASM issue #1 in Mar. 1963 all the way until the time when chronology, character development and personality, and past writers work wasn't taken seriously anymore.

I believe JMS' "Spider-Man Reign" was the beginning of this blatant disregard.

When I hear "Clone Saga was" I cringe, because, yes, it dragged on too long and became contrived, BUT, they tried wholeheartely to make it work and at least they were writing original stuff based on something that happened in the past (Clone) and Spider-Man never read those test resuls from Curt (ASM#150)

So then the next timeline to try to bash in ASM comics is Mackies' run. The re-boot was a mistake they quickly realized and aborted, at least in storyline very quickly. Mackie was overworked on two books, that was a mistake. BUT again, they tried to make it work.

The blatant disregard didn't come until JMS came on board, didn't answer the Baby May questions that people thought he would have the guts to answer and had Ezekial fight side by side with Peter and have Peter think that was the 1st time he fought with someone so similar to him. ASM completely, utterly, jumped the shark at that moment and continued down the slippery slope of lazy, shock value writing....with witty banter. Right we know, he gets the witty banter. :thing:

[SpideyInATree]

I didn't say that 2/3 of his run sucked. I said there were two storylines that really stunk and tarnished his run a little bit. Other than that his run was pretty solid, and knowing he's been on the title for about 6 years, it's about that time for another team to step in.

And Jeph Loeb is one of my favorite comic book writers so, yeah, I expect him to do good with Spider-Man, considering his earlier Spidey work was great.

[DACrowe]

Looking back at JMS I think he had two runs.

HIs work with JRjr was quite good I thought. The first Morlun story was riveting and the most entertaining villain clash in the comics for over 5 years when it happened.

And it left great story oppurtunities like Aunt May finding out Peter Parker was Spider-Man. Something long overdue. He was also the first writer (though Michillinie dabbled in this) to write Aunt May as a real character with a strong personality and it was absolutely riveting stuff between Pete and his supporting cast.

Perhaps his greatest contribution was that what he did with Aunt May but also with Mary Jane. For the first time since....roughly around when they lost baby May, Mary Jane was written as a real person. She had hopes, dreams, motivations and a good personality. She was interesting to read again for the first time in a LONG TIME. You wanted to see them to get back together and when they did it was done in a very satisfying way.

During this time he made other great contributions such as making Peter Parker a school teacher. I think it was a great evolution of his character that if they would not let him evolve personally (have a kid) letting him get a real steady job that he enjoyed that had to do with science since he missed that boat due to being Spider-Man (that is being a scientist) was a stroke of brilliance.

And I don't think enough kind words can be said about his tribute to the real heroes of 9/11.

And of course his first run (as I look at it) was just a lot of fun. Sure the Doc Ock storyline was moot, the Digger, Shakra AND Morlun were throw away villains, but they were fu nand a few of them quite memorable.

Then eh forgot to write the character as fun. And for the record during his JRjr run he wrote Peter Parker as very funny and very smart and a tough opponent to beat. He nailed the character for the first 3 years I thought. And the Book of Ezekiel would have been a good ending point for him as it brought it ALL full circle while leaving the ambiguity there and fullfilling the purpose of hte first really good supporting cast member in a long time.

THEN came Sins Past. Which is where the "second run" starts IMO. That story was so uniformly bad it made me cancel my subscription to Amazing. In this lame story, JMS takes a **** on Gwen, MJ, Peter Parker and makes Norman Osborn the even more contrived answer more than ever. It was hugely disappointing, I thought anyway.

I hear the rumor is that JMS wanted to make them Pete's kids and he would have to own up to the responsibility, and that would not have been a bad thing but that was not the case. As it is, it is probably one of the worst Spider-Man stories ever written and the artist during this time period (I forget his name) was probably one of the worst to do Amazing ina long time.

The nerdy kid run was boring and forgettable, then came Peter joining the Avengers. A teribble move, made by Joey Q no less but JMS really dropped the ball writing here. He made Spider-Man the court jester. While Pete was always good for jokes, that wasn't his sole attribute and for him to only be cracking them while getting his ass kicked by everyone on the team was pathetically written.

And the less said about The Other the better. And while it was Joey Q's decision to unmask Spidey, JMS went along with it. I actually think the last issue or two JMS has been writing Peter decently again and the marriage has some freshness again, but overall Civil War has still been a pathetic joke on Peter Parker, ruining who he is supposed to be.

So in the end I see JMS as having two runs really. One of which I think is the most entertaining run on Amazing in a decade adn the other one of the worst (I still think Mackie's relaunch run is probably the worst run on the Amazing title....ever). Too bad for him that most fans will only remember him for the latter stuff.

Civil War would have happened with or without JMS but the rest of the mistakes fal lsoely on him. So I thoroughly enjoy his first 30 issues or so, but after that....well I cancelled my subscription to Amazing didn't I? Stil lI don't hate the guy I think he did a lot of good htings for Spidey and at least when he first joined it was for the better as he replaced the only Amazing writer I down right loathe.

Oh well.

[Donald Thomas]

If JMS does leave, all that is ask for him to do before leaves is please please please explain to us who the HELL IS Morlun? Its been like 4 years since he introduced this guy and we dont know jack about him. And yet, this is the guy that killed spider-man. If JMS could do one last story explaining who morlun is, his motives, his powers etc. i'd be satisfied and i would forgive him for his past stories.

Aloha,
For more details on Morlun, his family and their origin, you may want to check out this novel.
http://www.donaldspidermanthomas.com/html/comics/2_limited/Novels-Graphic%20Novels/Novels/The-darkest-hours.jpg
For the record-if you go back to these threads before Sins Past- most people did not think that JMS was horiible.People liked Ezekiel and even though the Totem origin was introduced-at no time has Peter himself, ever accepted this idea. I predict that Sins Past will go the way of the Clone Saga.It happened but it didin't. Looking forward to who will take over Amazing as well as other titles this coming year. 2007 will be the year of the Spidey and MArvel will always pull out all the stops during that time.
Spidey rules

[Kevin]

Dammit, DACrowe, well said.

[The Joker]

Anyone read this: http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/002865580.cfm

I reckon this is the end of the Spidey marriage.

[Kevin]

meh.

[Doc Destruction]

Nice, so one last F U from JMS. Go suck the pipe, you hack.

[Kevin]

lol

[stillanerd]

Anyone read this: http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/002865580.cfm

I reckon this is the end of the Spidey marriage.

Yup, but a couple of things I glean from it:

1. Definately the Spider-Marriage will be no more.
2. Considering how Joe Q has stated that making Peter an widower or a divorcee would age the character even more than him being married, you can bet those options are off the table, which leads to
3. He says Dr. Strange is "very important to the story." This can mean only one thing--MAGIC is somehow involved in disolving the Spider-Marriage.
4. If there's references to things that have happened early in JMS's run, that can only mean...you got it MORE NEW AGE MYSTICAL SPIDER-TOTEM CRAP!
5. Back when the unmasking first happened, I posted this bit of speculation on the Newsarama boards about how this could be undone: http://forum.newsarama.com/showpost.php?p=2081770&postcount=203
Maybe I'm not so far off. However, the other option is...

Time Travel Seriously, folks, considering the state Spidey is in, no thanks to Joe Q and JMS interestingly enough, this actually seems like one of the few options left to get rid of the unmasking (which quite a few people have a problem with), not to mention the marriage (which most people BTW have ZERO problem with).

BTW SIAT, weren't you the one on the boards several months back that you overheard this being a possible "solution" to Spider-Man at the Phily Comic Con?)

[DACrowe]

Given his stance on the marriage and he is gleefully drawing the four arc run....it seems pretty final they are somehow ending the Spider-Marriage.

Good job Marvel, you've officially killed Stan Lee's creation by doing this. Now he is just another static and boring title once this is complete. Woo-hoo.

[Kevin]

Going forward by moving backwards.

[Spade]

And the EIC says he owes it all to JMS. “Joe [Straczynski] is giving me a crash course in the Marvel Universe. ‘It’s sink or swim, kid,’ he likes to say. I’m just trying to keep up with him.”

If Straczynski comes on later saying "it was all Quesada's idea" it's going to be a bit hard to do after lines like this. That aside, this only reaffirms my belief this man should have been off the books long ago. Great writer, horrible storyteller- we all know where this is 'new life-changing twist' is going. Love how they call his run a "great Spider-Man era"...

[Kevin]

You know what? I've been thinking about this all night, and now i'm pissed.

Okay, they want to get rid of MJ? I accept that. If they wanted to kill her? I accept that. If they broke up? I accept that. If she killed someone and went to jail? I accept that too. But it would go too far, not saying that they will do this but, If they suddenly made Mj "Forget"...

You know how people felt during the clone saga when they found out that Ben was the real Peter Parker, and the Peter they'd been reading was the clone, therefore making the stories with the clone pointless because he wasn't the real spider-man? If they Made her forget, They'd make her whole history pointless, to me.

It'd make everything JMS had done with the character--hell, the WHOLE BOOK pointless. It'd make all of my spider-man comics with her in it pointless, I wouldn't even want them anymore. Sure, it's pretty easy to write a character to forget, but what about me? I'd still remember, and that'd be bulljack.

I would NEVER trust JMS as a writer again, and become one of the "JMS bashers." he'd be the writer "who Made 6 years of pointless spider-man stories."

I had more t say, but I'm tired and I forgot. Times like this I wish Ben really WAS the real spider-man. That way, they'd just leave **** be. No good talentless assed writing hacks.

[Ultimate Kaine]

You know how people felt during the clone saga when they found out that Ben was the real Peter Parker, and the Peter they'd been reading was the clone, therefore making the stories with the clone pointless because he wasn't the real spider-man?

I believe the point of that storyline was that Peter Parker lived a real life and saved others whether he was a clone or not - that it's not biology that makes the man but rather the soul, and the life moments an individual creates regardless of origin. But I don't want to pull this wonderful thread off topic, I understand the analogy you're trying to get across and agree. I also say wonderful thread because hagnammit, I've waited for this thread ever since coming back to Spider-Man long after the Reboot kicked me off my post, only to have JMS's storylines almost lose me forever. So he's going, that's great - so he'll probably make even more damage before he's outta there - that's not so great. But one day, after he's gone, eventually someone will clean up Spider-Man and it won't be JMS. Just on that alone... oh yes, I have faith.

[arachnid-guy]

Or maybe erase MJ's memory......so that she doesnt remember gettign married to Pete.

Pete tell Strange to wipe her memories b/c he's hurt her too much. Or even wipe her memories of even meeting Peter.

Now that would be retcon.

(Thank goodness I'm not on AMAZING, eh?):woot:

[arachnid-guy]

Having said that, I am actually looking forward to 'the end'.

Im excited. :o

[shinlyle]

Sorry I'm late....let me out in my two cents...

F*** YOU JOE Q!!! F*** YOU, JMS!!!

I HAVE NEVER seen the marriage as anything "controversial", and neither have more than half the fans polled on this board, Newsarama, and every other method of opinion taking in the freakin' free world. You sorry sacks of s*** just need an excuse to ruin one last f***ing thing before you send JMS packing from a book that he has managed to drag through nothing but mud and s*** for the past 3 f***ing years!!!

"Let's end the marriage"....yeah, seeing as how you and the increasingly s***ty writing staff you keep under your emply at Marvel seem incapable of working in the bounds of PROGRESSIVE storytelling, you're going to hit your freakin' "RESET" button so that the writers can go back and reinvent the wheel by writing more of the same "Bad-luck Bachelor" stories that were done by FAR greater writers such as Stan Lee, Gerry Conway, Roger Stern, and every other Spider-writer who actually enjoyed seeing a character move forward with his life.

Why don't you dipS****s just pull a "DC" and have a "Crisis" so you can go back and retell everything from their origin onward all over again until you mess things up so badly that you have to do it again in 20 freakin' years?! HUH?! WHY NOT?!?!

This is just further proof that Joe Q doesn't know what he's doing. Look how much better Daredevil got as soon as he walked away and ignored him to do a crap-tastic miniseries called "FATHER". Hell, I'd be more pissed about this news if it wasn't for the fact that we probably won't see this "event" completed until sometime around the release of Spider-Man 4.


This will be it for me. I will undoubtedly be off of Spider-Man after this. I've read stories featuring the single Peter, and I've read them featuring the married Peter. Personally, I though it always amplified Peter's sense of responsibility to hav ehim a married man trying to be a good husband and a superhero. It really made (or could have made) for some interesting reading, but NO, they have to re-emphasize that Peter will NEVER have anyone, thus making every relationship after this one seem moot, as we will all know that the powers that be will never allow any relationship after this to become anything more than a temporary commitment before they either kill off the girl, or send her packing.


Now, I've vented, and I feel a bit better. Now, I'll let the logic kick in.

There is a slight chance that this is all just misdirection and that we're all being played like a harp from hell. It's very possible that this could all deal with something else, and that perhaps what JMS and Joey Q are setting out to do is to simply "fix" the marriage, as opposed to destroying it or killing off Mary Jane. I hope that is the case, then again, we've seen what happens when they try to "fix" things.

Personally, I think this will all revolve around Mary Jane questioning whether or not Peter loves her as much as he once loved Gwen, and Peter begins to question it as well. So, perhaps Peter is given a chance to have "one more day" with Gwen, to really ascertain his feelings. It would make perfect sense, as JMS has rehashed and dug up Gwen's corpse numerous times during his run, and this would be a logical closing point for him.

Still, the outcome of such a story is questionable, as it would involve one of two outcomes: Peter realizes he wants MJ, and they continue to live and love each other as their wedding vows said, or, Peter realizes MJ isn't Gwen, and MJ decides she can't play second fiddle to Peter's feelings for his now long-dead first love.

Either way, the fact that Marvel even considers going backwards to be moving forward is totally stupid and preposterous. Nothign will be accomplished by ending the Peter Parker & Mary Jane union except for JMS to have one more "I f***ed the Spider-man fans" notch in his belt as he exits the scene.

Well, You won't be getting my money, you asses. No freakin' way.

[Doc Destruction]

Originally Posted by Wizard Entertainment
And the EIC says he owes it all to JMS. “Joe [Straczynski] is giving me a crash course in the Marvel Universe. ‘It’s sink or swim, kid,’ he likes to say. I’m just trying to keep up with him.”


Errrr, JMS was schooling fat ass on the MU??? HOW? The man doesn't know a FREAKING THING about the MU! He never got anything right, and he pulled explanations out of his ass for things that were already established DIFFERENTLY for YEARS!

Wow...Dumb ass and Dumber ass. Unreal. My ban on Spider-Man comics is now stronger than ever.

[kainedamo]

I'm in complete agreement that ending the marriage would be a complete mistake. I intend to drop all my Spidey books if and when it happens. I've been saying that for awhile. I feel that MJ is integral to the Spidey mythos. She must stay alive, and she must stay in love and married to Peter. There are many reasons for this - one of the reasons for this is MJ is one of the only things that keeps Peter sane and happy. Remember issue 500 when Uncle Ben asks Peter if he's happy and he says yes? It's only because of Aunt May and MJ. Without MJ, Peter would be completely lost. And a couple of years down the line... they'd have Peter dating again. I cannot accept that. I can't accept it because it does not make any sense. Like I said, if Peter lost MJ, he'd lose himself.

That said, it is all Joe Q's idea. With or without JMS, we would be seeing an end to the Spidey marriage.

I'll buy the issues of "One More Day", and if indeed the marriage is over, I won't buy anymore Spidey books.

[Doc Destruction]

Holy crap, we agree on something. Well, there's goes the neighborhood!

[Kevin]

But hey, we never know. This could be the "Bring back gwen for one more day." Hell, we might finally see Peter tell her he's spider-man and see how she'd react to that.

[kainedamo]

But hey, we never know. This could be the "Bring back gwen for one more day." Hell, we might finally see Peter tell her he's spider-man and see how she'd react to that.


Could be.

I'm thinking, its possible that Joey Q has been pulling our collective legs all of this time.

What if this story is not what it seems? "One more day" - with Gwen Stacy?

Or maybe Aunt May dies?

Maybe they do the completely unexpected and have MJ become pregnant? Sigh, we can only hope.

How likely is it that Joey Q is full of crap and the marriage isn't ending?

[Kevin]

Do you want an answer? I think you already know:(

[diespinne]

5. Back when the unmasking first happened, I posted this bit of speculation on the Newsarama boards about how this could be undone: http://forum.newsarama.com/showpost.php?p=2081770&postcount=203
Maybe I'm not so far off.

Yup, it looks like that is exactly how it will play-out. One More Day for Peter and MJ to share what they have before all that knowledge and history are wiped-out of her mind...

Doesn't Loki owe Spidey a favor or something as well?

[shinlyle]

So...this "Controversial Marriage" is liked by damn near everyone on this thread....including people who NEVER agree on ANYTHING.

It seems the only people who DON'T like it are about 10 readers and at least 3 working professionals. You'll have to excuse me if I am entertaining the idea of vomitting on Joe Q the next time I see him. It's the least I can do for all the vomit he's placed in my lap via these asanine ideas he seems so intent on publishing. Argh.


Also, of all the artists on all the earth, who though to themselves "Joey Q would be the best choice! Sure, he puts books out at a snail's pace, and he's forgotten everything about anatomy, but we should get him to draw Spider-Man! It'll be cool!"

Really, if he weren't EIC, he wouldn't be getting to draw this. Then again, crappy art should go with this all-too-lame story.

Okay, his art isn't that bad, but it's a long way from where it was when he was drawing "Guardian Devil".:o

[shinlyle]

Yup, it looks like that is exactly how it will play-out. One More Day for Peter and MJ to share what they have before all that knowledge and history are wiped-out of her mind...

Doesn't Loki owe Spidey a favor or something as well?

I'm half-expecting them to do a mind-wipe at this point as well. What a cop-out. I just wish that the pros would listen to the fans just one freakin' time. They tried getting rid of MJ once, and it failed miserably. They're trying to get her to lose her memory now, and have Peter and MJ be like they were never married. Really, who the hell thinks up this s***?! ARGH!!

Watch out Reed & Sue, T'Challa & Storm, and any other fictional character who dares to achieve any smidgen of happiness....because Joey Q will make it as if never happened.

As for Loki, he died with all the other Norse Gods during Ragnarok back in "Disassembled".

[DACrowe]

Oh ****.

It seems final. This arc will probably be Spidey and Doctor Strange going back in time to erase everyone knowing his identity....BUT by doing this for some reason (maybe Pete chooses to, so he can "protect" MJ) they decide to erase MJ finding out all those years ago. And by doing this they never meet and he never dated, wooed or married MJ and is instead a swinging bachelor probably still living with his aunt in Queens after this issue.

When that happens I lose all respect for the Spidey comics and I'll probably just quit reading them. Because it means Marvel is giving in and making him a static character no different than Lois Lane and Superman during the 1950s. When that happens the progressive and happy superhero created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko is no more.

Alas, alas indeed.

[USMC]

Goddammit, will Joe Q just have a ****ing heart attack and die already?!:cmad:

Biggest piece of **** in comics today. Seperating Pete and MJ will be the biggest mistake Marvel has ever made. Glad I stopped buying a long time ago.

Spider-Man isn't ****ing Batman and Daredevil. Guess they really want him to be, though.

Sonsa*****es, hope they ****in choke on their damn comics.

[kainedamo]

Romita JR should be able to draw the story.

Not only do I consider Romita JR the best Spidey artist, but JMS' best work was when Romita JR was on the title.

[Ultimate Kaine]

By repeatedly referring to the Spider-Marriage as "controversial", JQ/Marvel/Newsarama etc. are collaborating to retro-actively change a public perception's history.

[DACrowe]

Yeah it was "controversial" for all of five minutes before not only did the readers and fans accept it, but embrace it. Outside of a very small minority the fans are quite content it is just lazy writingg that is leading to this. And it will be the last straw at destroying what Stan Lee originally created thusly.

[SpideyInATree]

Time Travel Seriously, folks, considering the state Spidey is in, no thanks to Joe Q and JMS interestingly enough, this actually seems like one of the few options left to get rid of the unmasking (which quite a few people have a problem with), not to mention the marriage (which most people BTW have ZERO problem with).

BTW SIAT, weren't you the one on the boards several months back that you overheard this being a possible "solution" to Spider-Man at the Phily Comic Con?)

That may have been someone else who heard it at the Philly Comic Con. However, I did have a theory that somehow time gets displaced or, as many have already said before, that Dr. Strange steps in with his magic. Considering Vaughn is making Dr. Strange awesome again after JMS buried the poor character.

But I read that article in Wizard much earlier in the week and, to be honest, I'm actually looking forward to it. I'm interested to see how well Quesada will do on the artwork...and if he can get it out on a timely basis, heh. And knowing that JMS is sort of wrapping up everything in his arc makes it all the more interesting. I bet any money that this has to do with Loki owing Spider-Man one...also considering by that time Thor and all of that will be back in play. And, of course, seeing that this could spell the end for Peter and MJ I'm probably one of two people on here that's happy as hell about it.

Though the only thing I worry about is them mentioning Sins Past and The Other. If JMS and Quesada were smart they'd keep far away from those disasters. :o

[Cullen]

So...this "Controversial Marriage" is liked by damn near everyone on this thread....including people who NEVER agree on ANYTHING.

It seems the only people who DON'T like it are about 10 readers and at least 3 working professionals. You'll have to excuse me if I am entertaining the idea of vomitting on Joe Q the next time I see him. It's the least I can do for all the vomit he's placed in my lap via these asanine ideas he seems so intent on publishing. Argh.


Also, of all the artists on all the earth, who though to themselves "Joey Q would be the best choice! Sure, he puts books out at a snail's pace, and he's forgotten everything about anatomy, but we should get him to draw Spider-Man! It'll be cool!"

Really, if he weren't EIC, he wouldn't be getting to draw this. Then again, crappy art should go with this all-too-lame story.

Okay, his art isn't that bad, but it's a long way from where it was when he was drawing "Guardian Devil".:oFor the record, if I'm not being counted in with the "ten who don't like the M. J. Marriage" then I ought to be.

That said, this can't be good news.

[dan1]

If Straczynski comes on later saying "it was all Quesada's idea" it's going to be a bit hard to do after lines like this. That aside, this only reaffirms my belief this man should have been off the books long ago. Great writer, horrible storyteller- we all know where this is 'new life-changing twist' is going. Love how they call his run a "great Spider-Man era"...


And the EIC says he owes it all to JMS. “Joe [Straczynski] is giving me a crash course in the Marvel Universe. ‘It’s sink or swim, kid,’ he likes to say. I’m just trying to keep up with him.” "

The blind leading the blind has never been more fitting.

"Wah....it's so tough to keep track of Spider-Mans' back issues. wah...I'm a little lazy baby. BTW, come see me and my sh**ty band play at a hole in the wall in NYC. Its taking up a lot of my time, but Its so rewarding."
-JoeQ the lazy loser.

[Captivated]

I'm hardly motivated to even post here anymore... the Spider-Man titles - thanks to the senseless and contrived Civil War - have been BORING me to tears for a few months now. I've also discovered that Ultimate Spidey clones hold little interest for me either. I've even decided that after this blasted Civil War ends I'm not buying single issues anymore and will only purchase graphic novels, if the reviews don't stink too much...

But it sounds like I may be off Spidey altogether if they are eliminating his relationship with Mary Jane... destroying what has been the heart of the character for so many...

...crafting a new beginning for the Wall-crawler in a four-issue storyline known simply, and mysteriously, as “One More Day.”

...crafting a four-part crossover that redefines the hero and his status quo—both personally and as a costumed vigilante—in the Marvel Universe post-Civil War. Just don’t call it an “event.”

“It’s not an event,” insists Quesada of “One More Day.” “It’s a reinvigoration of the Spider-Man line.

Redefined and changed? Why? One possible reason could be that they recognize some of the intolerable changes that they themselves have made! Mystical totem nonsense... revealing his identity... screwing up core characters... And I did hear sometime ago that they were going to "fix" Sins Past, so who knows what this means.

The only one who has tried to spin the marriage as "controversal" is JQ. And even he admitted that death and divorce were not good alternatives. What confuses me is the statement that the marriage controversy will have resolution. The only way THAT can happen is for them to leave Peter and MJ happily married, or to kill her.

I tend to think (based on some of the irritating statements that JQ has periodically made on the subject) that they may get creative in undoing the marriage. As others have suggested, if they can erase the memory of it or change time somehow, they can disolve it with no messy divorce or death.

BUT THAT IS NO RESOLUTION. It leaves a door open. Most fans will just be looking for them to get back together. And all they have to do to string us all along is to keep implying that they may find each other again... Which I think they will HAVE to do if they don't want a HUGE chunk of their fan base DUMPING them on their collective fat asses. :mad:

But I think they may be misjudging the patience and desires of Spider-man fans ONCE AGAIN. :(

[shinlyle]

I'm hardly motivated to even post here anymore... the Spider-Man titles - thanks to the senseless and contrived Civil War - have been BORING me to tears for a few months now. I've also discovered that Ultimate Spidey clones hold little interest for me either. I've even decided that after this blasted Civil War ends I'm not buying single issues anymore and will only purchase graphic novels, if the reviews don't stink too much...

But it sounds like I may be off Spidey altogether if they are eliminating his relationship with Mary Jane... destroying what has been the heart of the character for so many...



[/SIZE]Redefined and changed? Why? One possible reason could be that they recognize some of the intolerable changes that they themselves have made! Mystical totem nonsense... revealing his identity... screwing up core characters... And I did hear sometime ago that they were going to "fix" Sins Past, so who knows what this means.

The only one who has tried to spin the marriage as "controversal" is JQ. And even he admitted that death and divorce were not good alternatives. What confuses me is the statement that the marriage controversy will have resolution. The only way THAT can happen is for them to leave Peter and MJ happily married, or to kill her.

I tend to think (based on some of the irritating statements that JQ has periodically made on the subject) that they may get creative in undoing the marriage. As others have suggested, if they can erase the memory of it or change time somehow, they can disolve it with no messy divorce or death.

BUT THAT IS NO RESOLUTION. It leaves a door open. Most fans will just be looking for them to get back together. And all they have to do to string us all along is to keep implying that they may find each other again... Which I think they will HAVE to do if they don't want a HUGE chunk of their fan base DUMPING them on their collective fat asses. :mad:

But I think they may be misjudging the patience and desires of Spider-man fans ONCE AGAIN. :(

Well said.

Also, how many "Do you like the Spider-Marriage" threads were there before Joe Q kept bringing it up in every interview? I don't remember any. It seems he's triyng to drum up some false controversy over a subject that hasn't been complained about too much in the past 20 years sice the two were married. Ugh.

So...we're getting an unmarried Spider-Man who is going back to wearing his Black & White costume? Wow....so freakin' original.
:whatever:

[Ultimate Kaine]

They so want to get back to that mid-80's era when Peter was unmarried and all clad in black. When all is said and done, what of the past 20 or so years will remain core to the character? From the past 20 MONTHS, sure - they'll cling onto that stuff like glad-wrap. But 20 years? Marriage. Baby. Clones. Etc. ZipBangCrashGONE.

[Dangerous]

Just read that newsarama about the JMS/JQ arc next summer.
If indeed they do dissolve the marriage it would not surprise me in the least.
My guess is they want to just completely destroy Spidey before JMS leaves ASM and the day Joe Q is no longer EIC.

Guess it's not gonna be until September next year till we see the new team on ASM... Sheesh, will there even be any Spider-man left by then?
I've got to wonder.

[SpideyInATree]

I'm supposing that whoever takes over Amazing after JMS is going to be a pretty big name. They're not just going to toss a nobody on the title and leave him with something crappy to work with. Though, with the way Marvel has made some decisions as of late I wouldn't be surprised. :wow:

[TheVileOne]

Watch. This revamp of Spider-man is going to fail miserably just like all the others and it will be retconned in no more than a year tops.

[dan1]

Problem is, and we all know this , that the success of the movie has given them carte blanche to mess with the comic book however they want. They don't care. They make so much more money off the movie and merchandise than the comic book. It's not even close.

This was always a worry of mine, even before the first movie petition for organic webs.

Because the comic book integrity was so much more important to me, than the movie.

But oh well, at least I have read all of those amazing issues from the eighties (when they came out on the newstand, ) when 3 writers actually took the time to collaborate with "Spider Lunches" once a month (so they can get the complete continuity right, and use the back issues correctly.

Those were the days, when comic books were king, and thus, people cared about thier content.

Now are comics dead? Joe Q has almost said so, stating that graphic n's are now the future, but I don't think they are dead yet. I want to see a team, starting with the e i c who actually cares about what used to be cared about in these comic books, and then judge if comics are dead, or if they are just in dire need of originality and care that only a true true fan of the mythos can give.

[Havok83]

Any plans on this title getting a new artist? Garney's not bad but he's not great. With this being one of Marvel's top titles, I would think they would put a more high profile artist on it.

[matt50]

well at least they won't be bringing back steve skroce as and artist .....garney is decent but i'd love to see mark bagley or romita jr come back ....

[farmernudie]

I too am getting a little tired of even posting about spider man comics anymore....as someone else mentioned in an earlier post....because they've totally changed and ruined the character so entirely the past years its not funny.

And the agenda seems to be to ruin him even more by taking away the marriage and/or MJ.

And we all know this too won't last, and once again they'll be basically taking us back in along circle of already done-it stories eventually to bring MJ back or have them get married again or have it retconned.

Joey Q basically has been taking us one step forward with Spidey shock-and-awe-"big changes" storylines all the time....(unmasking, etc...).....which only inevitably leads us back to having to take two steps back in order to "fix" it or "Forget it" to appease the long time fans who have always supported the book when the newbies leave the book after a shocking storyline.

Why take the time to ruin the marriage....and even go there....when we know...and Joey Q. MUST KNOW SOMEWHERE IN HIS HEAD....that it will end up getting retconned and having to read another Pete marries MJ story again.

They've alrready gotten married.

Lets move FORWARD.

WIth good stories from there.

NOw we are all waiting for them to fix the unmasking to get that back.

MEanwhile they'll ruin the marriage because (it is a problem??) and they don't put a writer on that can write good marriage stories.

Then we will wait for them to write the new story to fix and bring back MJ and the marriage.

Spidey will have to keep doing favors for Loki so that he can be written to come back and fix all the dumb mistakes Joey Q. keeps allowing.

[Kevin]

My biggest fear, That if and when MJ goes, sells will go up. That would prove to marvel that whatever they're doing is working. If JQ wants MJ gone, he will make it stick. I'll be the first to say this: If MJ goes, The titles will NOT fail as they have in the past.

[CConn]

I think they will (fail) eventually, no matter what. There'd probably be a spike in the sales when it first happens, though.

[ragingdemon155]

I still don't get how MJ is the problem. Like taking care of her will fix all the problems that have come out of the Spider titles in recent years.

[TheVileOne]

I thought Peter needed MJ?

[ragingdemon155]

I thought Peter needed MJ?

We all did.....

[Kevin]

No, no, no, you all are wrong. He needs to not be tied down. He needs to be set back in 1980. He needs to be a single 30 year old who dresses up in a custom to fight crime and date around (sleep around) with many women which would make him a character who doesn't deserve respect.

[Spade]

Sales will go back up because they're currently targeting young adolescent males who think the prospect of a Reign-style Peter (only younger) is awesome. It's only until the controversy goes away that everyone suddenly realizes they've been had and that Peter has taken yet another step backward.

I still don't understand how Quesada thinks this will open up other story venues, unless he's planning on getting Frank Miller and Pat Lee to start a collaborative on the books. :dry:

[farmernudie]

A FRANK MILLER AND PAT LEE SPIDEY!!???

LOL........that'd be about swell........

"I"M THE @$$%* SPIDER-MAN AND I"LL FLAUNT MY #%#% IDENTITY ANYTIME ANYWHERE. AUNY MAY AND MARY JANE ARE JUST A BUNCH OF @$Y%@#$ PANSYS ANYWAY!"

@#^%$#@ THWIP<

(as he swings away in heavy boots and a big bruised unmasked jaw)

[USMC]

My biggest fear, That if and when MJ goes, sells will go up. That would prove to marvel that whatever they're doing is working. If JQ wants MJ gone, he will make it stick. I'll be the first to say this: If MJ goes, The titles will NOT fail as they have in the past.


It won't happen. MJ was killed in a plane explosion years back, only to have a huge fan backlash that made them resurrect her (with a horrible storyline, btw) pretty damn quick.

[X Knight]

wait....they're trying to break up Pete and MJ??!!! Why??!!

Aren't Pete and MJ one of the premiere comic book couples, right up there with Clark and Lois, and Sue and Richard?

[ragingdemon155]

wait....they're trying to break up Pete and MJ??!!! Why??!!

Aren't Pete and MJ one of the premiere comic book couples, right up there with Clark and Lois, and Sue and Richard?

You could even argue that Peter and MJ are "the" premiere" couple over Clark and Lois or Sue and Reed..It's debatable.

This couple is head and shoulders above ever other comic book couple. I still don't understand why Joey Q is so fixated on MJ being the problem. I mean sure the books have had there fair share of problems but not once have I really heard fans associate MJ with the problem. MJ had nothing to do with "The Other" or "Sins Past" and so on. Those were just horribly thought up stories.

[kainedamo]

A character is only as good as the writing.

So if Joe Q's staff have a problem with writing her (which I'm not sure they do, could all be bull****), then maybe their quality of writing should be called into question rather than the quality of the character.

It's been shown before that MJ shines as a character when used properly.

[dan1]

I still don't understand why Joey Q is so fixated on MJ being the problem. I mean sure the books have had there fair share of problems but not once have I really heard fans associate MJ with the problem. MJ had nothing to do with "The Other" or "Sins Past" and so on. Those were just horribly thought up stories.

He's fixated on it, because she's the good ol' scapegoat for him.

JoeQ is not creative anymore. He's a politician in the businessworld.

He must find a reason for failure that lies far away from him.

[farmernudie]

There have been lots of complaints and lots of threads...all involving OTHER things wrong with Spidey...and not MJ.

Sure there have a been a few stray remarks here and there...but overall i think the majority of the readers like MJ and associate her with Spidey.

Joey Q. has no desire to "deal" with the real "problems"....he jsut wants to write big publicity stunt kinda stories that will make the headlines....."gwen was trampy"...."spidey reveals himself to the public"......"spider-man eats someones eyes out!"....."MJ run over by a semitruck/or the Rhino and KILLED"....

He goes for shock and awe......but, IGNORES continuity.....

His way of "fixing" so called problems is like a bull in a china shop.

I'm sorry, but it is true.

He is taking us in circles....storywise. We are not moving forward. We have to read this sorry state of spidey and then re-read eventual retconned storys that bring us back to the beginning basically before all the changes and amazingly exciting restructures of "fixing". (sarcasm)

Can't wait to read future storys bringing MJ or aunt may back AGAIN AND AGAIN. Reintroducing them to his life and giving us some dippy explanation why they REALLY were gone for awhile.

And...It's not like i've not already read the WEDDING ISSUE....and all the issues of them dating that led up to it. Let's not have to be forced to read it again when they suddenly realize MJ and pete should be remarried again. Oy.

[Doc Destruction]

Wow, Shin...you and I are suddenly not so alone in thought these days. :)

[shinlyle]

Wow, Shin...you and I are suddenly not so alone in thought these days. :)

I know, right?:woot:

[Doc Destruction]

Hell I remember when you and I would get kicked around for criticizing JMS' hack writing. Ah, to be right...so so right.

[Kevin]

*sigh*

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

There have been lots of complaints and lots of threads...all involving OTHER things wrong with Spidey...and not MJ.

Sure there have a been a few stray remarks here and there...but overall i think the majority of the readers like MJ and associate her with Spidey.

Joey Q. has no desire to "deal" with the real "problems"....he jsut wants to write big publicity stunt kinda stories that will make the headlines....."gwen was trampy"...."spidey reveals himself to the public"......"spider-man eats someones eyes out!"....."MJ run over by a semitruck/or the Rhino and KILLED"....

He goes for shock and awe......but, IGNORES continuity.....

His way of "fixing" so called problems is like a bull in a china shop.

I'm sorry, but it is true.

He is taking us in circles....storywise. We are not moving forward. We have to read this sorry state of spidey and then re-read eventual retconned storys that bring us back to the beginning basically before all the changes and amazingly exciting restructures of "fixing". (sarcasm)

Can't wait to read future storys bringing MJ or aunt may back AGAIN AND AGAIN. Reintroducing them to his life and giving us some dippy explanation why they REALLY were gone for awhile.

And...It's not like i've not already read the WEDDING ISSUE....and all the issues of them dating that led up to it. Let's not have to be forced to read it again when they suddenly realize MJ and pete should be remarried again. Oy.
That's it exactly.
I'd call for Joey Q's neutering... if I actually imagined there was anything to cut off.
:doom:

[Redwoods Wolf]

So, the real question is...can Spidey be fixed? Or is it better to mercy-kill?

I mean, I'm all in favor if we can restore (not restart, that's important) Spider-Man to a good state. But ever since the Clone Saga it seems like Spidey has just been on a flushing spiral of death. I mean, it's pretty sad when a knock-off of the original is more entertaining than the original (USM, that is).

What, besides the obvious firing of JQ and JMS, needs to be done to fix Spider-Man?

[Spade]

So, the real question is...can Spidey be fixed? Or is it better to mercy-kill?

I mean, I'm all in favor if we can restore (not restart, that's important) Spider-Man to a good state. But ever since the Clone Saga it seems like Spidey has just been on a flushing spiral of death. I mean, it's pretty sad when a knock-off of the original is more entertaining than the original (USM, that is).

What, besides the obvious firing of JQ and JMS, needs to be done to fix Spider-Man?

We don't need a restart. We just need a reaffirming of some basic principles:

1. The reinstatement of the supporting cast (with possible reinstatement of Peter's Bugle job; if this conflicts with character progress, introduction of supporting cast through Peter's current teaching position).

2. The reinstatement of Peter's secret identity.

3. The removal of all supernatural hobnobbery from the origin (including but not limited to the stupid powers ascertained by Peter during 'The Other: Evolve or Die').

4. A lack of acknowledgement to the controversial storylines succeeding The Book of Ezekiel storyline arc (not an actual retcon, just a lack of acknowledgement such as what has been done with the events of the Clone Saga).

5. The reinstatement of the classic uniform with no additional 'tweaks' or so-called 'improvements' in terms of gadgetry beyond the occasional Peter invention (nothing nearly as drastic and useless as the Iron Spidey getup).

6. An invigoration (without stagnation) and protection of the 'Spider-Marriage'.

7. The development of new storylines that involve the plethora of characters gone unused during JMS' run, as well as the introduction of new characters designs for more purpose than that of a gimmick endorsement.

8. The omission of Morlun as a possible recurring character or as a 'hive mind/ horde' from the rogue gallery entirely.

I only came up with eight, but there are many other things that can be done.

[dan1]

Hell I remember when you and I would get kicked around for criticizing JMS' hack writing. Ah, to be right...so so right.

Hey Doc, I've been criticizing JMS' hack writing for years now, Highlander rip etc.

Just as long as you guys have :D

Matter of fact, the purposful attempt at shunning the clone saga, example, the Ezekial teamup against Morlun, was my initial red-flag; and that was when he was being praised to death (I think his 3rd issue).

Ignore the Clone Saga if you want, but to re-write personalities to pretend it didn't happen showed me he was willing to take that attitude to the extreme. That is so Taboo for Spider-Man comics that it isn't funny.

anyway, he is definitely a Spider-Man hack. Didn't continue any sub plots or supporting characters once he came on board. And ripped off other writers and ripped UP past gems to suit his lame-a*s needs.

[shinlyle]

Hell I remember when you and I would get kicked around for criticizing JMS' hack writing. Ah, to be right...so so right.

I know....those times when you, I, Larry Legend, and the rest of the gang would get bombarded for DARING to criticize the man who had "reinvigorated" the title. Now, after crappy arc after crappy arc, it would seem that those vouces grow somewhat silent. Maybe it's because of the past 20-30 issues beign crappy, maybe it's because of his managing to ruin what Waid and 'Ringo accomplished on Fantastic Four, who knows?

Either way, this is one of those times when I would have liked to have been proven wrong....I would have preferred that JMS pulled one out of his sleeve and shown that these were all the mechinations of Mysterio, who faked his death in front of Daredevil as an elaborate plot to get back at his arch-nemesis before dying (for real, this time) of the cancer that has been eating him alive.

Ah...for a writer to be that creative on the Spider-Man books.....oh, wait, we do have SSM.

[kainedamo]

Hey Doc, I've been criticizing JMS' hack writing for years now, Highlander rip etc.

Just as long as you guys have :D

Matter of fact, the purposful attempt at shunning the clone saga, example, the Ezekial teamup against Morlun, was my initial red-flag; and that was when he was being praised to death (I think his 3rd issue).

Ignore the Clone Saga if you want, but to re-write personalities to pretend it didn't happen showed me he was willing to take that attitude to the extreme. That is so Taboo for Spider-Man comics that it isn't funny.

anyway, he is definitely a Spider-Man hack. Didn't continue any sub plots or supporting characters once he came on board. And ripped off other writers and ripped UP past gems to suit his lame-a*s needs.

Highlander rip? Why does that sound familiar? Maybe I've read something of yours before.

[shinlyle]

Speaking of Spider-Man sucking nowadays, I saw this on Mike Weiringo's blog the other day. Think of it what you will, but he alludes to his disdain over what has been done to the character of Spider-man during his brief run on Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man.

Check it out....it's a few entries down under his "Farewell 2006" entry.
http://www.mikewieringo.com/html/Blog.htm

[dan1]

Highlander rip? Why does that sound familiar? Maybe I've read something of yours before.

Hey bud, yea you have. I've always said that.

I also said the totem saga is a rip of some earlier Spec Spider-Man comics even. When the Black Crow had Spider-Man and the Puma battle. Totem battle.

But I don't think that was purposely done, because I don't think JMS ever read those back issues (:woot: ) ,because if he did, he could have actually added Puma and Black Crow to the whole stupid totem thing, to make it more accessible to continuity.

You tell me, Immortals travel the world to beat each other in battle and feed off their essence and then essentially kill them and become stronger because you beat them?

And they can sense each other too.

Ezekial was the Sean Connery Mentor character . :o

It's a joke man. I don't need my Spider-Man comics origin to copy a slightly above average movie and subsequent tv show. We're talking Spider-Man here. s*it.

Anyway, said my peace too many times already. I just hope some true SPider-Man COMIC BOOK fans become the next writers.

[dan1]

Speaking of Spider-Man sucking nowadays, I saw this on Mike Weiringo's blog the other day. Think of it what you will, but he alludes to his disdain over what has been done to the character of Spider-man during his brief run on Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man.

Check it out....it's a few entries down under his "Farewell 2006" entry.
http://www.mikewieringo.com/html/Blog.htm

Yes, that does sound to me that he was dissatisfied with this entire shock value run (magic origin, Gwen ****, and the Other bs). Civil war probably just made him want to puke at this point.

He's been drawing Spidey for long enough that I'm pretty sure he knows that JMS and JoeQ don't give two craps about the history. Unless their crapping on it.

[kainedamo]

Yes, that does sound to me that he was dissatisfied with this entire shock value run (magic origin, Gwen ****, and the Other bs). Civil war probably just made him want to puke at this point.

He's been drawing Spidey for long enough that I'm pretty sure he knows that JMS and JoeQ don't give two craps about the history. Unless their crapping on it.

:whatever:

Now hang on just a second. Talk about reading into it what you want to read into it. It sounds more like he was dissatisfied with working with Peter David.

While I was more than a bit dissatisfied with the creative aspects of working on the FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN title-- I certainly couldn't argue with the sales success of the book launching a major SPIDER-MAN crossover-- and the lucrative repercussions of that crossover. I really haven't spoken much about why I left the title in the past year-- but some times a creative team really clicks... and some times they don't.

It also sounds like he wasn't happy with the Other storyline.

just never felt comfortable with the kinds of stories that I was having to draw with the book-- even after the OTHER crossover ended-- and so I moved on.

Anything else you gather from that is entirely your own doing.

[dan1]

:whatever:

Now hang on just a second. Talk about reading into it what you want to read into it. It sounds more like he was dissatisfied with working with Peter David.



It also sounds like he wasn't happy with the Other storyline.



Anything else you gather from that is entirely your own doing.

Well it sounds like he was dissatisfied with the Other and then current goings on, ie, Civil War.

SO it's pretty easy to read into him being dissatified with the even bigger crappola that lead up to it.

But I agree, it's just reading into it. No facts.

I don't care what Ringo thinks on the subject anyway (unless he starts writing or stands up for his dissatisfaction), I care what I think and my fellow Comic Book fans here think, and that's that Spider-Man comics have been crap because of pure disrespect for the past.

[kainedamo]

Well it sounds like he was dissatisfied with the Other and then current goings on, ie, Civil War.

Where does he even mention Civil War?

SO it's pretty easy to read into him being dissatified with the even bigger crappola that lead up to it.

Did he say it? No. You're just assuming.

But I agree, it's just reading into it. No facts.

I don't care what Ringo thinks on the subject anyway (unless he starts writing or stands up for his dissatisfaction), I care what I think and my fellow Comic Book fans here think, and that's that Spider-Man comics have been crap because of pure disrespect for the past.

I'd say they're crap for reasons completely seperate from that. The continuity "issues" are blown entirely out of proportion, as always. The Other is just a bad story - as simple as that. Confused, pointless, and it ran on too long.

[shinlyle]

:whatever:

Now hang on just a second. Talk about reading into it what you want to read into it. It sounds more like he was dissatisfied with working with Peter David.



It also sounds like he wasn't happy with the Other storyline.



Anything else you gather from that is entirely your own doing.


Well, I was just referring to his obvious distaste for "The Other", the "Evil Uncle Ben", the Iron Spider, and the Unmasking. THese things he was forced to deal with during his tenure on FNSM.

[kainedamo]

Well, I was just referring to his obvious distaste for "The Other", the "Evil Uncle Ben", the Iron Spider, and the Unmasking. THese things he was forced to deal with during his tenure on FNSM.

The only story he refers to directly is The Other. He also mentions stuff about some creative teams not gelling, which probably means he didn't like working with Peter David.

[dan1]

Where does he even mention Civil War?



Did he say it? No. You're just assuming.



I'd say they're crap for reasons completely seperate from that. The continuity "issues" are blown entirely out of proportion, as always. The Other is just a bad story - as simple as that. Confused, pointless, and it ran on too long.

I said it was assumptions. You're right though, I was reading into it too much.

Again though, just like my last post, I don't give a crap what an artist says, especially if he isn't willing to step up and speak about his dissatisfaction, if it has to do with recent plots.

But here is where YOU are wrong, if you want to play the point out blame game; Continuity and consistancy of character is the Key to Spider-Man Comics. At least the long running "the Amazing Spider-Man."

The major issues truly stem from JMS and JoeQ's lack of care of it, once you completely peel the other gripes away.

Again, Kainedamo, read a bunch of back issues from the all important continuity rich years 1982-1989 before you write that continuity ignorance and manupulation is "blown out of proportion."

[kainedamo]

I said it was assumptions. You're right though, I was reading into it too much.

Again though, just like my last post, I don't give a crap what an artist says, especially if he isn't willing to step up and speak about his dissatisfaction, if it has to do with recent plots.

But here is where YOU are wrong, if you want to play the point out blame game; Continuity and consistancy of character is the Key to Spider-Man Comics. At least the long running "the Amazing Spider-Man."

The major issues truly stem from JMS and JoeQ's lack of care of it, once you completely peel the other gripes away.

Again, Kainedamo, read a bunch of back issues from the all important continuity rich years 1982-1989 before you write that continuity ignorance and manupulation is "blown out of proportion."


Every writer makes continuity mistakes. I'd say alot of writers have manipulated or tweaked coninuity. It's 40 plus years of history! Big ****ing deal if he says Gwen was away for months when she wasn't. It's a ****ing pathetic thing to point out and get angry over.

[USMC]

It's pathetic not to.

[kainedamo]

It's pathetic not to.


Its pathetic not to ***** and whine about the time period a character was away a couple of decades ago???

What???

[dan1]

Every writer makes continuity mistakes. I'd say alot of writers have manipulated or tweaked coninuity.

Because you've read so much Spider-Man back issue, right?! :whatever:

Big ****ing deal if he says Gwen was away for months when she wasn't. It's a ****ing pathetic thing to point out and get angry over.

Harsh words bub. :o You are the perfect Spider-Man Comic book fan for the 21st century. Lucky you.

Don't forget who spent all that time posting over and over again, defending Sins Past (you). So, wouldn't that be pathetic then too?

It was a waste of time for me and Dragon and whoever else to explain all of it to you then, and obviously it's a waste of time now.

You still didn't read the backissues, but you still think your judge and jury on a subject like continuity over those that have consistantly read AMazing Spider-Man for 25 years.

{scratches head}

[kainedamo]

Because you've read so much Spider-Man back issue, right?! :whatever:[/quite]

Oh, here we go. The whole "I'm a bigger Spidey fan than you" thing.


[quote]Harsh words bub. :o You are the perfect Spider-Man Comic book fan for the 21st century. Lucky you.

Don't forget who spent all that time posting over and over again, defending Sins Past (you). So, wouldn't that be pathetic then too?

It was a waste of time for me and Dragon and whoever else to explain all of it to you then, and obviously it's a waste of time now.

You still didn't read the backissues, but you still think your judge and jury on a subject like continuity over those that have consistantly read AMazing Spider-Man for 25 years.

{scratches head}

Who says I haven't read the back issues? I've read most of Stan Lee's run and I've read the issues leading up to and including Gwen's death.

Fans like you make comic book fans look like Star Wars fanatics.

[dan1]

Oh, here we go. The whole "I'm a bigger Spidey fan than you" thing.




Who says I haven't read the back issues? I've read most of Stan Lee's run and I've read the issues leading up to and including Gwen's death.

Fans like you make comic book fans look like Star Wars fanatics.

Dude, I'm not blaming you for your ignorance. You are definitely a product of the time.

So was I, but my time was when comic books WERE KING (the 80's) , and writers took the time to get the story straight. It meant something. I have Comics Magizine Issues where the Spidey Writers speak about how import getting the continuity and consistancy is!

Were those Spider-Man writers "pathetic' from the eighties. Plebian.

I'm not a bigger fan than you. Again, another stupid statement. But when I've tasted the ripest fruit, and your claiming your fruit is just as good (even though it's rotten) , and you ridicule those that know hw easy it would be to grow that ripe fruit again, you do actually come off as not as big a fan.


All I hoped for on ASM was that they got a writer that cared about getting it right, not shock value and ignorance.

They can write 5 other titles of Spider-Man for the casual fan, like you, but for the people that invested 20+ years into a character that always had a consistant personality and pretty much consistant timeline during the time they read it, don'tcha think it would rub someone the wrong way to see that the last 5 years of ASM has been treated exactly opposite?

Also 'bud' , you give me examples of other writers screwing up continuity in a major way the way JMS has, before he came on board.

You said 'every writer makes continuity mistakes.' That's a JOKE dude, 'cause you're flat out wrong.

Serious statements from a newbie with still quite a bit to learn.

[USMC]

Its pathetic not to ***** and whine about the time period a character was away a couple of decades ago???

What???


It's pathetic to be a fan that's satisfied with mediocre writing that doesn't honor what came before it. Might as well make Peter wake up as a woman and just shrug your shoulders.

What would satisfy you, I guess, is if Spider-Man were written like Groundhog Day where every single issue is a brand new adventure that has absolutely nothing to do with the preceding or subsequesent issues following it. No mess, no fuss, no consequences. Hold no one accountable, ever. Buy comics because of the Spider-Man logo on the front, not for the content.

Whatever, kid.:whatever:

[Kevin]

Honestly, fans nit pick the hell out of everything. It doesn't make sense to me.

[USMC]

Honestly, fans nit pick the hell out of everything. It doesn't make sense to me.


That's what makes them fans.:heart:

[Kevin]

:):heart:

[dan1]

It's pathetic to be a fan that's satisfied with mediocre writing that doesn't honor what came before it. Might as well make Peter wake up as a woman and just shrug your shoulders.

What would satisfy you, I guess, is if Spider-Man were written like Groundhog Day where every single issue is a brand new adventure that has absolutely nothing to do with the preceding or subsequesent issues following it. No mess, no fuss, no consequences. Hold no one accountable, ever. Buy comics because of the Spider-Man logo on the front, not for the content.

Whatever, kid.:whatever:

Wow someone with a brain. :hyper:

Same sentiments, of course. The Cool Spider-Man costume and mask may have been the first thing that got almost everyone into SPider-Man, but their is so much more to making the comic book work. Everything you wrote sums that up.

[diespinne]

I think fans of Sins Past and The Other "make comic book fans look like Star Wars fanatics"-- the kind that love Episodes 1 - 3.

There's plenty to pick apart in those stories than just continuity. They're just awful. I'm shocked they saw the light of print... and in Spidey's flagship title no less.

[shinlyle]

I just figured I'd chime in.

First off, YES, it matters about how long Gwen was away, because if she wasn't away for the amount of time JMS said she was in Sins Past (and she wasn't), then his story loses all credibility within the bounds of continuity. If I said that I went to the mountains for a week when I was 8 years old, but then, later on, I talk about how I went away only to come back and find out that my mom, who wasn't pregnant when I left, had given borth to twins, would that sound a little bit stupid? Yeah....something would be wrong, and I should be called on it.

For JMS to use such an OBVIOUS incongruency as the basis of a storyarc shows total contempt and disregard for the creators who told those stories. Hating on people who appreciate the continuity is like telling Stan Lee and Gerry Conway that they shouldn't have bothered writing it.

Now, some retroactive continuity stuff is fine. I don't mind an occasional paraphrasing of dialogue or minor inconsistencies (Spider-Man: Blue), but a blatant dsregard is too much.

There, I've said my piece.

Alos, Star Wars geeks are people too. (polishes lightsaber)

[USMC]

(polishes lightsaber)


Is that what they're calling it these days?:huh: :wow:

[diespinne]

Alos, Star Wars geeks are people too. (polishes lightsaber)

Hey, I'm a Star Wars fan too, but I wouldn't be surprised if Episodes 1-3 were written by JMS. :oldrazz:

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

WHAT?
WWHHAAAAT???

You mean that reading the last 24 issues of Amazing and skimming through some of the old peoples' back issues while drinking coffee at the bookstore doesn't make someone as much of an expert on the subject as one who's read it every month for 30 years?

GREAT!! Next you people will actually expect a presentation of actual facts to back up vacuous opinions!

NOTE:The preceding was a work of sarcasm. The lack of independant thought frequently displayed here makes this annotation necessary.

[kainedamo]

Dude, I'm not blaming you for your ignorance. You are definitely a product of the time.

So was I, but my time was when comic books WERE KING (the 80's) , and writers took the time to get the story straight. It meant something. I have Comics Magizine Issues where the Spidey Writers speak about how import getting the continuity and consistancy is!

Were those Spider-Man writers "pathetic' from the eighties. Plebian.

I'm not a bigger fan than you. Again, another stupid statement. But when I've tasted the ripest fruit, and your claiming your fruit is just as good (even though it's rotten) , and you ridicule those that know hw easy it would be to grow that ripe fruit again, you do actually come off as not as big a fan.


All I hoped for on ASM was that they got a writer that cared about getting it right, not shock value and ignorance.

They can write 5 other titles of Spider-Man for the casual fan, like you, but for the people that invested 20+ years into a character that always had a consistant personality and pretty much consistant timeline during the time they read it, don'tcha think it would rub someone the wrong way to see that the last 5 years of ASM has been treated exactly opposite?

Also 'bud' , you give me examples of other writers screwing up continuity in a major way the way JMS has, before he came on board.

You said 'every writer makes continuity mistakes.' That's a JOKE dude, 'cause you're flat out wrong.

Serious statements from a newbie with still quite a bit to learn.


Your last sentence makes you a dick and I'm not taking part in this argument with you. I stand by what I said - fans like you make the rest of us look like obsessive nit picking freaks. I'd rather judge a story by its quality than by whether or not its 100% accurate continuity wise in a continuity thats 40 plus years old.

[Kevin]

I'm 50/50 on it.

[diespinne]

But didn't JMS come-out and specifically say that Sins Past fit-in perfectly to existing continuity? It's impossible to ignore continuity when a writer specifically mines the past and tries to weave his story into it.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Yes, diespinne, that is exactly correct. It also invalidates all of kainedamo's rather blind excuse-making over the past several pages.

After JMS STATES that he has done his homework and everything fits perfectly into continuity... it boggles my mind how when people make legitimate comments about how untrue that is, others will come along and shoot the messenger.

I mean, eveybody has a right to enjoy crap. Disco was huge and in these pages, so is JMS. If you like him...then like him- but DO NOT call people names for pointing out why they have legitimate reasons not to like him.

[kainedamo]

Yes, diespinne, that is exactly correct. It also invalidates all of kainedamo's rather blind excuse-making over the past several pages.

After JMS STATES that he has done his homework and everything fits perfectly into continuity... it boggles my mind how when people make legitimate comments about how untrue that is, others will come along and shoot the messenger.

I mean, eveybody has a right to enjoy crap. Disco was huge and in these pages, so is JMS. If you like him...then like him- but DO NOT call people names for pointing out why they have legitimate reasons not to like him.

I just have issues with that guy further up the thread calling me a newb, and saying crap "I was there in the 80s, you weren't", and "oh yeah like you read the back issues :rolleyes:". Incredibly condescending and snobby attitude.

I understand perfectly well why people don't like JMS. I haven't been too thrilled with him lately myself. But I do think people make too much out of continuity errors.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

I just have issues with that guy further up the thread calling me a newb, and saying crap "I was there in the 80s, you weren't", and "oh yeah like you read the back issues :rolleyes:". Incredibly condescending and snobby attitude.

I understand perfectly well why people don't like JMS. I haven't been too thrilled with him lately myself. But I do think people make too much out of continuity errors.
I get what you are saying there.

Also w/ the continuity errors. However, we're at a point in the MU where it's gotten to be too much. It's like a soap opera where the guy who was last written as a quadraplegic is brought back as a track star. Then someone points this out and they're accused of nitpicking rather than being congratulated for showing the eggregious and rather stupid mistake.

[farmernudie]

Exactly....VVDOOMX....i agree....

There is nothing wrong with pointing out utter disregard for continuity.

(for those of us fans that have been reading ALL along...)

And, if people find enjoyment out of storylines like the Gwen one with GG....more power to them. I am not out bashing anyone's tastes. Fluff can be fun sometimes...heck...i still love Knight Rider and A-team!!

However, there are certain stories that plainly SHOULDN"T be told within the confines of a continuity filled comic like Amazing or Spectacular, or what-have you.

JMS and Joey Q. could easily start their own Spidey comic that is just lite monthly fun outside of the "normal spidey world" and people could pick that up if they wished. Then they would be respectng everyone...and everyone would have choices.

Shoving crap down our throats, forcing us to read bad spidey stories or none at all...is kinda getting old and depressing. It is hard to just "ACCEPT" stuff that the Spidey character or his surrounding cast just wouldn't ever typically do for the sakes of a sales event. Or to basically flush the stories and ignore the great writers of old by rewriting them and totally disregarding them.

I havent' even written on this forum for months recently because I have been feeling too down about this character i've always loved. And no one seems to hear ya, because all I keep reading in Wizard and online is Joey Q. boasting about how he is "fixing Spidey" and how he is going to continue to "fix" Spidey. I feel out of the loop and like i am missing something whenever i read his quotes...it sure feels to me like he is RUINING spidey at a record pace.

[Kevin]

"There is nothing wrong with pointing out utter disregard for continuity." It would be Pointing out if he said this once and get it over it. A second time would be reaffirming ones opinion. Any more than three times would complaining.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

That's it exactly, farmernudie. heh.

If someone had told me a few years ago that I would stop buying Amazing every month after so long maintaining a run that begins in the late '60s... well, I'd have told them they were nuts. I'd have told them that I'd keep collecting no matter how bad the stories became. But I'd have been wrong.

I couldn't forsee the egotism and lack of respect for characters and fans alike which JQ and JMS represent. I certainly coudn't have forseen "Sins Past." I've been done paying for that tripe since then and I urge all long-term fans to follow suit or at least buy them as back issues. Don't give Marvel a cent for raping characters.

[dan1]

I just have issues with that guy further up the thread calling me a newb, and saying crap "I was there in the 80s, you weren't", and "oh yeah like you read the back issues :rolleyes:". Incredibly condescending and snobby attitude.

EXCUSE ME?! DUDE, you called me pathetic first. You have some nerve kid. I spent many minutes explaining Sins Past timeline to you when you asked, over a year ago, even though I knew you were still trying to find a way to back up JMS.

The reality is there is more truth to the line that "you are a young newbie to Spider-Man comics (comparitively speaking), than, that that I am pathetic!"

Then you called me a dick. Which I could care less about. That doesn't hurt me. What it does show me is that you are so defensive, your mind gets clouded on this board.

You haven't read 20+ years of Spider-Man comics. I have.

I'm not being a snob. I'm definitely not being condescending. Look up condescending; I've given you the benefit of the doubt so many times. It took us weeks of posts from Herr Logan, Dragon, and others to get you to admit that Sins Past timeline was wrong. Remember when you defended it before you even really truly read the back issues that emcompassed the whole issue?????!!!!

When I was new to Spider-Man comics I didn't have a problem with knowing that I didn't know a lot of the history and if I wanted to know it I would ASK SOMEONE and truly absorb it, or go read the issues before being judge and jury. You read Stan Lee and the issues surrounding the Sins Past timeline now. Great. There is still way over 1,000 issues besides that, that may, just may change your opinion a little.

I've read most of them, so my opinion is truly cemented in reality. Yours' is based on some kind of psychosis which I obviously don't understand. Probably the old darwinian logic that the Young thinks they have to muscle their way into something and tout the present time to show that they're in the know and/or that they have just as much right to their free speech.

I don't get paid to analyze you. I'm guessing you don't have an older brother though. Just a hunch. No disrespect to anyone here. Maybe an only child. Not close to your grandparents.


I understand perfectly well why people don't like JMS. I haven't been too thrilled with him lately myself. But I do think people make too much out of continuity errors.

Then you are a casual comic book fan, because NO major continuity errors were made before he came on board. Now major continuity errors are the consistant 'norm.'

If you really feel that way, you should have NO OPINION on continuity...since you don't care! If you don't care, then stop pretending to. Read Spider-Man all you want. Be his biggest fan. Seriously! But, don't throw your two cents into a subject that you don't care about.

There are titles for People that don't appreciate the 40+ year history of Spider-Man comic books. One is Ultimate Spider-Man, . It was originally designed for the young reader who only cares about today.

By all means read the Amazing Spider-Man, but your opinion on long running timeline related issues, is far down the "Totem" wink wink Pole. Nobody here respects it and nobody cares about what you think on Timeline issues, unless they're writing a paper on young kids disrespecting long standing fans.

So I'm pathetic (and my 80's brethren), I'm a dick, but you aren't a newbie to Spider-Man comics and your answers are the correct ones we should all appreciate and follow.

Man, again, you have a lot to learn. Newb.

[shinlyle]

Hey, I'm a Star Wars fan too, but I wouldn't be surprised if Episodes 1-3 were written by JMS. :oldrazz:

Um...I'm a fan of the REAL Star Wars....Episodes 4-6....the UNALTERED ones.

Episode 3 was okay, but dammit...Episodes 1 & 2 are better used as coasters than shown to the general public. In fact, I didn't even go see Episode 2 in the theater...which had alot to do with a certain Web-slinger having a much better movie out around the same time.

Is that what they're calling it these days?

Thank GOD that perv humor still lives on these boards. I caught that right after I typed it...and left it anyway.

[Doc Destruction]

There are titles for People that don't appreciate the 40+ year history of Spider-Man comic books. One is Ultimate Spider-Man, . It was originally designed for the young reader who only cares about today.

I would like to quote the HELL out of this. The reason for having Ultimate was to avoid crap like this. Unmask him, make Gwen a skeeze bag, kill Aunt May, hell...kill everyone. It doesn't matter, it's a different, fresh take on him.

THIS IS 616! STOP MESSING WITH IT.

[roni14]

[quote=dan1]Because you've read so much Spider-Man back issue, right?! :whatever:[/quite]
Fans like you make comic book fans look like Star Wars fanatics.
:huh: What? I take offense to that!

[Kevin]

[quote=kainedamo;10892019]
:huh: What? I take offense to that!
to what?:huh:

[kainedamo]

You haven't read 20+ years of Spider-Man comics. I have.

See, this is my point. That doesn't make you a bigger fan. I started reading comics when I was about 14, I am now 22. You've been alive longer. That's all it means. Doesn't make you a bigger fan.

I'm not being a snob.

You quite clearly are.

I'm definitely not being condescending. Look up condescending; I've given you the benefit of the doubt so many times. It took us weeks of posts from Herr Logan, Dragon, and others to get you to admit that Sins Past timeline was wrong. Remember when you defended it before you even really truly read the back issues that emcompassed the whole issue?????!!!!

The fact that I was wrong in those issues is irrelevant. Doesn't make you a bigger fan. Lets not forget what we are talking about, and were talking about back then - the matter of the length of time Gwen was out of the country. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, you are not. That is the only difference between us. I wish you could see it that way. But you have no respect for a difference in opinion. You just HAVE to be right, don't you?

When I was new to Spider-Man comics I didn't have a problem with knowing that I didn't know a lot of the history and if I wanted to know it I would ASK SOMEONE and truly absorb it, or go read the issues before being judge and jury. You read Stan Lee and the issues surrounding the Sins Past timeline now. Great. There is still way over 1,000 issues besides that, that may, just may change your opinion a little.

I've read most of Stan's run, Gwen's death, and Sins Past. What issues would suddenly make me think "that son of a ***** JMS had no right manipulating continuity!!"

I've read most of them, so my opinion is truly cemented in reality. Yours' is based on some kind of psychosis

LOL. Nice.

I don't get paid to analyze you. I'm guessing you don't have an older brother though. Just a hunch. No disrespect to anyone here. Maybe an only child. Not close to your grandparents.

What the heck has this got to do with anything? I do have an older brother. I also have three sisters. I only have one surviving grandparent. I'm not close to her.

Then you are a casual comic book fan, because NO major continuity errors were made before he came on board. Now major continuity errors are the consistant 'norm.'

What do you consider a casual fan? Do you consider a 22 year old man that has been buying comics almost weekly ever since he was 14 to be casual? Maybe you just consider someone a casual fan when you don't agree with them.

Something that you have to consider is that comic books are very different these days. It's a different era. Look at the Punisher. Garth Ennis almost completely ignores what went before - and it works. I'm not saying this is the way it should be with other characters, but for the Punisher, it works. Today's writers want to appeal to a more broad and mature audience. I'm not saying in the 80s it wasn't like that. I'm just saying, guys like Bendis do for todays audience what Stan did for people in the 60s.

You can't expect writers to come up with new, exciting storylines that explore the depth of our favourite characters and for them not to touch whats happened in the past. I'm something of an aspiring writer, and I'd hate to work in the land of Marvel if I thought fans expected me to be creative in a rigid box where I can't touch on the past. I'm not saying the past should be ignored. I'm just saying, tweaking, and manipulation of the past can be forgiven if it is done well.

If you really feel that way, you should have NO OPINION on continuity...since you don't care! If you don't care, then stop pretending to. Read Spider-Man all you want. Be his biggest fan. Seriously! But, don't throw your two cents into a subject that you don't care about.

There you go, ladies and gentleman! I'm not entitled to an opinion :eyeroll:

here are titles for People that don't appreciate the 40+ year history of Spider-Man comic books. One is Ultimate Spider-Man, . It was originally designed for the young reader who only cares about today.

By all means read the Amazing Spider-Man, but your opinion on long running timeline related issues, is far down the "Totem" wink wink Pole. Nobody here respects it and nobody cares about what you think on Timeline issues, unless they're writing a paper on young kids disrespecting long standing fans.

And you say you're not a snob and that you're not condescending.

I never said you weren't entitled to an opinion. I may have called you pathetic, but I never said you can't have an opinion. Thats what you have done to me. Its precisely, in my eyes, what makes you pathetic.

[USMC]

I'm just saying, tweaking, and manipulation of the past can be forgiven if it is done well.


http://www.frontiernet.net/~joe14580/captain%20obvious.jpg

[farmernudie]

^LOL


Ok......i see both sides....and Dan1 said a few things about family and anaylzing you that may be a little over the top...

But overall, as a long time fan i see his point completely and "hear him" entirely, it is prolly how a bunch of us "old timers" feel (haha...only 32!)....but just didn't agree with everything in HOW he said it all to you.

We are all fans...tho....and don't need to compare who is bigger than the other.

Regardless, Spdiey of late has not been treated like the Spidey we've read our entire lives since we've been able to read.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

See, this is my point. That doesn't make you a bigger fan. I started reading comics when I was about 14, I am now 22. You've been alive longer. That's all it means. Doesn't make you a bigger fan.


Look man, you are absolutely correct about the above. However anyone who loves a story based on continuity errors (and in my personal opinion, a complete lack of understanding of who the character is) and states that said continuity errors (enormous ones... in NO way small ones) are no big deal simply is not as big a fan as someone who is unaccepting of these errors. period.

That's like saying that someone who doesn't really care when the Dallas Cowboys lose is as big a fan as the guy who paints themselves in blue and silver each Sunday and weeps when the Dallas Cowboys loose simply because they've both been watching the games for awhile.

With all due respect, kanedamo, who are absolutely wrong on this point. Dan is a significantly bigger fan than you. This is obvious.

[kainedamo]

Look man, you are absolutly correct about the above. However anyone who loves a story based on continuity errors (and in my personal opinion, a complete lack of understanding of who the character is) and states that said continuity errors (enormous ones... in NO way small ones) are no big deal simply is not as big a fan as someone who is unaccepting of these errors. period.

That's like saying that someone who doesn't really care when the Dallas Cowboys lose is as big a fan as the guy who paints themselves in blue and silver each Sunday and weeps when the Dallas Cowboys loose simply because they've both been watching the games for awhile.

With all due respect, kanedamo, who are absolutely wrong on this point. Dan is a significantly bigger fan than you. This is obvious.


You're both fanboys. You can't accept that someone has a different opinion. Spider-Man is the character that got me into comic books. Its arguable that Spider-Man is what got me into wider literature. First, I watched the cartoons in the 90s. I was blown away. I fell in love with the character right there and then and couldn't wait to watch the next episode. Then I saw the comic book, sitting there in the newsagents, I had to buy it. Then I bought it monthly. I became interested in other superheroes, and picked up their books too. Then I started reading Frank Millar, and Alan Moore, Robert Crumb, and others.

I'm a different breed of fan from yourself and dan. I'm of a different generation. You and dan are completists. I buy comics for the sheer joy of reading them, not to complete a set like some Pokemon nerd. If something is a blatent disregard of continuity, I won't like it. For example, whats happening with Wolverine at the moment. There is no way his healing ability should be that good, both for the sake of story and because it flies in the face of previous storytelling. As for Gwen Stacy - was she away weeks, months? It happened so long ago, that it is the difference between my left hand and right hand. A writer should be able to tweak the past a little bit.

Could the story have been planned better? Yes. I would have loved to see the story as it was originally intended - with Peter being the Father. Should JMS have dropped the story when he couldn't have Pete as the Father? Maybe. But you have to consider, its likely JMS had already had things mostly scripted and planned out. Another thing you have to consider, these writers work on a very tight schedule. They don't have the luxery of taking a year long break to work on a big story, and work out all the kinks.

When taking these things into account, and the fact that all we are talking about is a period of time a character was out of the country in a story that was told DECADES ago, its not just forgiveable. Its practically almost unnoticable. Except, of course, to fanboys. Who are kind of like fundamentalist Christians who take every word of the bible literally. Hmm, another reason you're both like fundamentalist Christians... "You're not a real Christian!! I am a real Christian! I am a better Christian than you!!". Sound familiar?

There are worse continuity flaws in the Civil War series, and all of that has only been written over the last year.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Ah... now I see the problem: You're simply childish. I was respectful in my reply to you but you begin your post with name calling.
Also, I'm not a completeist. I believe in good stories and haven't bought an issue of Amazing since Sins Past.
Further, the continuity errors I'm referring to concern the PERSONALITIES of Gwen, Pete & Norman, not simply who went where when.

Please continue to agrue and whine and demonstrate your lack of maturity. I'll really enjoy it.

[kainedamo]

I found your post insulting.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Good. It was meant to be.


Of course you didn't mean to be insulting when calling me a fanboy or comparing me to a Pokemon nerd. heh. Poor little thing.

[kainedamo]

Good. It was meant to be.

But you said, and I quote...

I was respectful in my reply

So you're full of ****. Don't call me childish for insulting you, if you had meant to be insulting yourself.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

Wow. You really are ignorant.

Let me explain it to you since SO MUCH obviously MUST be explained to you.

In post #406, I was respectful. In post #407 you began name calling and being condescending because you are such a better type of fan. In post # 408 I meant to be insulting. Get it?

Does it actually hurt to think? Is that why you avoid it so strenuously? Or is it just that you are too superior to actually attend to what's going on around you? Moron.

[kainedamo]

Wow. You really are ignorant.

Let me explain it to you since SO MUCH obviously MUST be explained to you.

In post #406, I was respectful. In post #407 you began name calling and being condescending because you are such a better type of fan. In post # 408 I meant to be insulting. Get it?

Does it actually hurt to think? Is that why you avoid it so strenuously? Or is it just that you are too superior to actually attend to what's going on around you? Moron.

Well obviously, when I said I found your post insulting, I was refering to #406. Only in bizarro land was that post respectul.

Really, you getting so angry and all. It's all indictive of the fact that you have issues with people that don't agree with you. Get some sleep or something, man.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

You simply have issues with reality, since in #406, I'm only pointing out the obvious in a very neutral way. Get over it or continue to cry about it. Either way, it doesn't matter to me.

And mad? Please. As I said; I'm enjoying your whining.

[Mephisto]

OUCH!

Pwnd by DoomX!

[kainedamo]

OUCH!

Pwnd by DoomX!

Stupid phrase. Always used when its not true, too. Doomx is just trying to get the last word in, like a big child, while I laughed and went to bed.

We really should stop insulting each other.

Doomx never even addressed the points in my argument up above. Y'know, where I was being all reasonable and saying Sins Past could have been planned better.

[farmernudie]

To try to put it nicely and neutrally...

I think he was trying to say that besides the continuity errors of the timeline she was gone....they also totally messed with Gwens character and personality...having her do something that was outside the realm of believability for fans who read about gwen at the time day in and out. She wouldn't have ever slept with harry's father...PERIOD.

It is highly annoying for a writer to write someone SO FAR out of character that it is just plain obvious it was written to drum up some drama and controversy only. Let alone, "tweaking" the continuity "a little" as you would say.

MArvel shouldn't throw core convictions of a character or core traits and flush them and just say..."well, people do weird things and can change""...that is a lame marvel excuse, and one i've also heard many "fans" fall back on too.

With that theory....Wolverine may have well had a fling with Norman Osborn too....it's JUST as believable.

[kainedamo]

Sweet and innocent girls can do surprisingly bad things. Its more than believable. It happens every single day in the real world. Heck, when I was 18 I slept with a 16 year old Christian girl who was hardcore Christian, went to Church every sunday, all that jazz. She wasn't just Christian, she was one of those born again nut cases. It just shows you. Another girl I know through a friend, you wouldn't think it to talk to her, she appears so sweet, but shes a coke head.

Were comic book fans always this whiney? The death of Gwen Stacy drummed up alot of contraversy at the time it came out, so I guess so!

[farmernudie]

Cocky and nasty bad to the bone tough guys (wolverine) do surprisingly bad things too. It's totally believeable. That too happens every single day in the real world.

Who is whiney????? I wrote a very non confrontational post without a single name calling of any sort and again you include name calling of sorts. That is so sad. I don't get it.

......oy.....................i tried...........

I'm not going to bother explaining Gwen to you, or Pete and his gang back then, and all the interpersonal relationship dynamics, even with May and Mr. Osborn and etc relating to the younger set with the older set back then...., nor in general the overall innocence of the characters compared to 2007 and the amount of sex and shock and awe pumped into everything from (let-alone) comic books to tv and movies compared to then either. There are too many points to be made, and it seems pointless...because poiting out the facts i guess will require us on here to be called WHINEY or other names it appears.

[arachnid-guy]

(On a side note....I like your comic book Kainedamo).

It's fun!

[farmernudie]

Ok.......and since I replied....your post is now different.

Now i also see you are insulting BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS and relating them to NUTCASES.

Very generalizing and degrading.

I am not going even comment anymore with you personally, whether other people want to it is up to them, (nor will i call names like you do or insult a majority section of americans who happen to be "born again christian nutcases"...)

If other people want to give yout he time of day so you can insult them on here..that is their choice.

This should be a light hearted forum to discuss (SPIDEY) COMICS....which its okay to get a bit heated TALKING ABOUT THE FACTS...OR YOUR VIEW OF THEM...but not to call names, or label people and get mean.

[kainedamo]

Cocky and nasty bad to the bone tough guys (wolverine) do surprisingly bad things too. It's totally believeable. That too happens every single day in the real world.

Who is whiney????? I wrote a very non confrontational post without a single name calling of any sort and again you include name calling of sorts. That is so sad. I don't get it.

......oy.....................i tried...........

I'm not going to bother explaining Gwen to you, or Pete and his gang back then, and all the interpersonal relationship dynamics, even with May and Mr. Osborn and etc relating to the younger set with the older set back then...., nor in general the overall innocence of the characters compared to 2007 and the amount of sex and shock and awe pumped into everything from (let-alone) comic books to tv and movies compared to then either. There are too many points to be made, and it seems pointless...because poiting out the facts i guess will require us on here to be called WHINEY or other names it appears.

Apologies. I wasn't calling you whiney, I was talking about comic book fans in general. I wasn't referring to you. I should have made that clearer.

As for the born again Christians, I was also being general about that. Not talking about all of them, but some of them. I wouldn't think I'd have to point that out. So you can relax.

[kainedamo]

(On a side note....I like your comic book Kainedamo).

It's fun!

Thanks :D

[farmernudie]

kainedamo: I slept with a 16 year old Christian girl who was hardcore Christian, went to Church every sunday, all that jazz. She wasn't just Christian, she was one of those born again nut cases.



And not to get into a theological debate, but just to point out something to you, so you won't sound uninformed again...."CHRISTIANS" by definition are ones who are "born again" through their belief in Jesus Christ.

So stating.....

She wasn't just Christian, she was one of those born again nut cases.

....is redudant at best, and even extra insulting to Christians, the majority of americans and the founding American faith specifically evenmore.

Maybe you can re-edit that post again and add (incorrectly) some extra talk about Muslims or Jews and insult them with names too??

Thanks so much for the thoughtful, nice, non-comic book descriptions you've shared with us today on this forum there, kainedamo.

[kainedamo]

Again, I wasn't talking about all Christians. I really don't want to live in a world that is so PC I have to had in a whole extra sentence every single time I wanna talk about stuff... "Not talking about all Christians, just some, the ones that are nut cases, no offense meant to Christians, sorry!!".

[kainedamo]

I'm gonna post my argument again. It's went pretty much ignored. I don't want things being sidetracked because of Doomx's ranting. And sorry to farmernudie for any offense, it wasn't my intention as I have stated. You've taken me too literally. I could have been clearer when I said comic book fans were whiney though.
You're both fanboys. You can't accept that someone has a different opinion. Spider-Man is the character that got me into comic books. Its arguable that Spider-Man is what got me into wider literature. First, I watched the cartoons in the 90s. I was blown away. I fell in love with the character right there and then and couldn't wait to watch the next episode. Then I saw the comic book, sitting there in the newsagents, I had to buy it. Then I bought it monthly. I became interested in other superheroes, and picked up their books too. Then I started reading Frank Millar, and Alan Moore, Robert Crumb, and others.

I'm a different breed of fan from yourself and dan. I'm of a different generation. You and dan are completists. I buy comics for the sheer joy of reading them, not to complete a set like some Pokemon nerd. If something is a blatent disregard of continuity, I won't like it. For example, whats happening with Wolverine at the moment. There is no way his healing ability should be that good, both for the sake of story and because it flies in the face of previous storytelling. As for Gwen Stacy - was she away weeks, months? It happened so long ago, that it is the difference between my left hand and right hand. A writer should be able to tweak the past a little bit.

Could the story have been planned better? Yes. I would have loved to see the story as it was originally intended - with Peter being the Father. Should JMS have dropped the story when he couldn't have Pete as the Father? Maybe. But you have to consider, its likely JMS had already had things mostly scripted and planned out. Another thing you have to consider, these writers work on a very tight schedule. They don't have the luxery of taking a year long break to work on a big story, and work out all the kinks.

When taking these things into account, and the fact that all we are talking about is a period of time a character was out of the country in a story that was told DECADES ago, its not just forgiveable. Its practically almost unnoticable. Except, of course, to fanboys. Who are kind of like fundamentalist Christians who take every word of the bible literally. Hmm, another reason you're both like fundamentalist Christians... "You're not a real Christian!! I am a real Christian! I am a better Christian than you!!". Sound familiar?

There are worse continuity flaws in the Civil War series, and all of that has only been written over the last year.

[SpideyInATree]

Look man, you are absolutely correct about the above. However anyone who loves a story based on continuity errors (and in my personal opinion, a complete lack of understanding of who the character is) and states that said continuity errors (enormous ones... in NO way small ones) are no big deal simply is not as big a fan as someone who is unaccepting of these errors. period.

That's like saying that someone who doesn't really care when the Dallas Cowboys lose is as big a fan as the guy who paints themselves in blue and silver each Sunday and weeps when the Dallas Cowboys loose simply because they've both been watching the games for awhile.

With all due respect, kanedamo, who are absolutely wrong on this point. Dan is a significantly bigger fan than you. This is obvious.

All it means is that kainedamo is not a traditional fan of Spider-Man. Dan1 is a traditional fan of Spider-Man. It doesn't mean that one is a better or bigger fan of Spider-Man. If you really want to gauge who is the "better" or the "bigger" fan the two gentleman should have a battle in Spider-Man trivia. From 1962 to present day and see who comes out on top. Then they can bicker about who is the better Spider-Man fan.

Besides it always gives me a chuckle when posters on here go around accusing other posters of not being "fans" because they enjoy something that the majority around here doesn't enjoy. It's like the schoolyard bully beating you up everyday because you said that Sins Past was an all right story. Heh.

[farmernudie]

kainedamo: Apologies. I wasn't calling you whiney, I was talking about comic book fans in general. I wasn't referring to you. I should have made that clearer.


Accepted. Thanks.



kainedamo... Who are kind of like fundamentalist Christians who take every word of the bible literally. Hmm, another reason you're both like fundamentalist Christians... "You're not a real Christian!! I am a real Christian! I am a better Christian than you!!". Sound familiar?


However, you're really coming out hitting hard towards Christians in your posts aren't you?? (a theme of yours...) Maybe lighten up a bit?? Sheesh...I don't see anything wrong with fundementalist christians...bad analogy and not needed to bring religion into your debates in such a negative light.

kainedamo: When taking these things into account, and the fact that all we are talking about is a period of time a character was out of the country in a story that was told DECADES ago, its not just forgiveable. Its practically almost unnoticable.

I dunno.....it seems VERY noticable, to me i guess. That's alli can speak for. The fact that i read it in my life when it happened (published) and it is just feels like "yesterday" to me. Just like I remember the details of my own life, "just like yesterday", i guess. It'd be like if someone was talking about my mother (substituted for Gwen here) and said she was gone for a vacation for two weeks for example when i know it was a weekend. Or someone accusing my mom was acting one way or did something, when i just know as a fact she didn't, and that the accusation would be so silly and absurd.

That's just me and my example of how it seems so wrong to "me" personally, in my opinion. Just a simple example.

However, it doesn't bother me in the slightest that anyone else liked that storyline or didn't. You can have your feelings and that is totally ok with me personally. To me it was junky and innacurate, to others it was fun maybe. And the fact is, we ARE all fans, and we all have our own times in life that vary when we became hooked on Spidey, which would and does account for different perspectives.

And, It can be fun to debate this when everyone keeps it clean without putting down others too! It's not about being PC or not, but about being considerate and not making it personal and keeping to the point of the forum i think.

[kainedamo]

Accepted. Thanks.



However, you're really coming out hitting hard towards Christians in your posts aren't you?? (a theme of yours...) Maybe lighten up a bit?? Sheesh...I don't see anything wrong with fundementalist christians...bad analogy and not needed to bring religion into your debates in such a negative light.



I dunno.....it seems VERY noticable, to me i guess. That's alli can speak for. The fact that i read it in my life when it happened (published) and it is just feels like "yesterday" to me. Just like I remember the details of my own life, "just like yesterday", i guess. It'd be like if someone was talking about my mother (substituted for Gwen here) and said she was gone for a vacation for two weeks for example when i know it was a weekend. Or someone accusing my mom was acting one way or did something, when i just know as a fact she didn't, and that the accusation would be so silly and absurd.

That's just me and my example of how it seems so wrong to "me" personally, in my opinion. Just a simple example.

However, it doesn't bother me in the slightest that anyone else liked that storyline or didn't. You can have your feelings and that is totally ok with me personally. To me it was junky and innacurate, to others it was fun maybe. And the fact is, we ARE all fans, and we all have our own times in life that vary when we became hooked on Spidey, which would and does account for different perspectives.

And, It can be fun to debate this when everyone keeps it clean without putting down others too! It's not about being PC or not, but about being considerate and not making it personal and keeping to the point of the forum i think.

Thanks. Thats all fine, I have no problems with any of that at all.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

I'm gonna post my argument again. It's went pretty much ignored. I don't want things being sidetracked because of Doomx's ranting. And sorry to farmernudie for any offense, it wasn't my intention as I have stated. You've taken me too literally. I could have been clearer when I said comic book fans were whiney though.

Your "argument" has been ignored because there isn't one.
You are still blindly focused on the time descrepancy of Gwen's trip and not on the fact that she never would have slept with Norman.

Now you feel free to talk in glittering generalities about how some people do this or that and toss in a few of your gratuitous insults of others that later you never seem to mean.... Your mouth getting away from you is a regular theme.

But in your generalizing about others... you've never seen inside those people's heads the way people do in comic character's thought balloons. We can see their inner person through that process and can therefore better gauge who they really are. So stop whining.

[kainedamo]

Your "argument" has been ignored because there isn't one.
You are still blindly focused on the time descrepancy of Gwen's trip and not on the fact that she never would have slept with Norman.

Now you feel free to talk in glittering generalities about how some people do this or that and toss in a few of your gratuitous insults of others that later you never seem to mean.... Your mouth getting away from you is a regular theme.

But in your generalizing about others... you've never seen inside those people's heads the way people do in comic character's thought balloons. We can see their inner person through that process and can therefore better gauge who they really are. So stop whining.

Gwen sleeping with Norman can't really be a continuity mistake. The time descrepancy is a continuity mistake. I wonder if you've even read my argument.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

You're both fanboys. You can't accept that someone has a different opinion. (AND I'M A MIND READER!) Spider-Man is the character that got me into comic books. Its arguable that Spider-Man is what got me into wider literature. First, I watched the cartoons in the 90s. I was blown away. I fell in love with the character right there and then and couldn't wait to watch the next episode. Then I saw the comic book, sitting there in the newsagents, I had to buy it. Then I bought it monthly. I became interested in other superheroes, and picked up their books too. Then I started reading Frank Millar, and Alan Moore, Robert Crumb, and others.

I'm a different breed of fan from yourself and dan. I'm of a different generation. You and dan are completists.(MORE MIND READING!) I buy comics for the sheer joy of reading them, not to complete a set like some Pokemon nerd. If something is a blatent disregard of continuity, I won't like it. For example, whats happening with Wolverine at the moment. There is no way his healing ability should be that good, both for the sake of story and because it flies in the face of previous storytelling. As for Gwen Stacy - was she away weeks, months? It happened so long ago, that it is the difference between my left hand and right hand. A writer should be able to tweak the past a little bit.

Could the story have been planned better? Yes. I would have loved to see the story as it was originally intended - with Peter being the Father. Should JMS have dropped the story when he couldn't have Pete as the Father? Maybe. But you have to consider, its likely JMS had already had things mostly scripted and planned out. Another thing you have to consider, these writers work on a very tight schedule. They don't have the luxery of taking a year long break to work on a big story, and work out all the kinks.

When taking these things into account, and the fact that all we are talking about is a period of time a character was out of the country in a story that was told DECADES ago, its not just forgiveable. Its practically almost unnoticable. Except, of course, to fanboys. Who are kind of like fundamentalist Christians who take every word of the bible literally. Hmm, another reason you're both like fundamentalist Christians... "You're not a real Christian!! I am a real Christian! I am a better Christian than you!!". Sound familiar?

There are worse continuity flaws in the Civil War series, and all of that has only been written over the last year.
Yeah I read your little rant. There's just nothing like an "argument" in it. It's simply your attempt to make yourself feel superior by insulting others. Keep it up. It's kind of funny to watch people talk in circles.

[kainedamo]

"I'm a different breed of fan from yourself and dan" isn't offensive!

Anyway, there is pretty much no point in talking to you. Enjoy taking life too seriously.

[VICTORVONDOOMX]

It implies you know something about either one of us. You do not.

But you are so liberal with your offensiveness, you obviously have no idea what's actually coming out of your (metaphorical) mouth.

You are correct about one thing: There is no point in your talking to me. You words aren't intelligent or powerful enough to actually annoy me... simply amuse... and at this point it's fairly obvious that you do not think before talking, so learning and growing through discussion is withheld from you. But I will continue to point out your obvious flaws... so it is best you discontinue speaking with (really about) me.

Enjoy being inadaquate. You've got a lifetime of it ahead of you.

[kainedamo]

I. Am. Doomx. And. I. Must. Have. The. Last. Wooooooooooooooooord!!!

[arachnid-guy]

So.....JMS off Amazing, eh?

Trying to get back on topic.

[matt50]

So.....JMS off Amazing, eh?





yea musta missed that in this thread

[Spade]

Don't you see? This is the plan of Darth Quesada and Darth JMS- to tear SHH asunder with this news. And we're playing right into it! In fact, here's an exclusive video of the two of them dancing!

http://darthvaderno.ytmnd.com/

[Doc Destruction]

Anyway, there is pretty much no point in talking to you. Enjoy taking life too seriously.

Painful irony.

[dan1]

Again, for the third time, I never said I was a bigger fan than you Kaindamo. Matter of 'Opinion,' you are probably a bigger Spider-Man fan then me right now. Because of all the continuity and character mistreatment the last 5 years, I have had little heart for current Spider-Man.

But to hear your response say that since you read Stan Lee Spider-Man and some Gwen issues and Sins Past, that your opinion couldn't possibly change on JMS' take on the characters and continuity, just seems completely stubborn to me. God forbid you may possibly change your opinion after reading 1,000 more comic books. For you to laugh at that and essentially guarantee otherwise just seems arguementative. You'll stand by your ground come hell or high water. That's pretty closed minded.

And for you Kaindamo to try to bury me as some fanboy who is trying to beat you in some pissing contest is preposterous. You complain about people not reading your posts. Seems to me you are reacting to my posts instead of reading them. How rigid and defensive can one person get.

Your response to my last post seemed like a politician taking out what he needed to SPIN the issue at least enough to get some illusioned credibility.

You are defensive. Quick to name call. You have not read a lot of backissues. But you continue to have an opinion on backissue continuity and character representation. You say you have the right to your opinion, but that doesn't mean you have any credentials. Besides your "well i have just as much a right as you" rant, how is your opinion worthwhile to a bunch of people talking seriously about how the lack of continuity and character during JMS' reign has actually done more bad than good overall, for the ASM comic book specifically? As far as I can see, again in overall "Amazing Spider-Man comic book talk" your opinion is important to me, to show what lack of continuity is enabling the new fan to become.

Lazy and uncaring about the past. Man did I enjoy going back 20 years to catch up when I was a kid.
Why don't you have an urge to do that? Because you don't truly care about continuity. We know this already. We're going in circles here.

We know you have a right to your opinion. We know, we know, we know. But it's an opinion based on an appreciation of a current writer\editor and what you envision as the Spider-Man personality based on the handful of issues you read. In my opinion for you to make blanket statements of what is important for the comic book called "The Amazing Spider-Man," you have to bring more than opinion and passion. You have to bring fact, and accept fact when you learn it.

JMS has spoken about how he didn't disrespect/fracture continuity or character during his run. You agree with him. Most people disagree. Because most people disagree, and most of those people have been reading Spider-Man during his obvious hey-day (the 80's) when comic books were king, No internet then, red flags get raised all over the place about JMS' run and his lack of accountability, and the dismal state of something that can be very special if treated special.

Again, enjoy Amazing Spider-Man all you want, but Ultimate Spider-Man was suppossed to be created so these arguements would never happen. JMS could have written all of these last 6 years there, and you would have enjoyed most of it, and I would have enjoyed the continuous saga, supporting characters, etc. without missing a beat in the 616 universe.

But because Joe Quesada has carte' blanche since the movie's success (and little need for the comics monetary success anymore), we have lived through what Joe Quesada believes is important, because he is in charge.

Marvel used to give us way more than our money deserved. Since the reader WAS their bread and butter. Now they string out lethargic, anti climatic comics with visions of Trade Paper Backs dancing in their heads. I guess everything evens out. Now we get less for our money. I never thought Spider-Man would "jump the shark."

We all lose I believe, even if the kids don't know, I know what they could have had if the creators actually cared about keeping it real the last 5 years. It's just a shame.

And I do believe that if a new editor came along and wiped out the last five years using continuity of plot and character, and really took writing the Amazing Spider-Man seriously, we would all be in for a treat and maybe comic books could become king again. It would have to mean a whole lot to that new editor. What's wrong with an editor having "fanboy" appreciation instead of wanting to rub elbows with movie stars and be a rock star. I'll take the first type of editor everyday of the week. Again, if you work for Marvel Comics as a writer or editor you should be prepared to know as much about the characer you are representing as the average "fanboy" devotee. If you don't, then maybe you're in the wrong line of work. I'm sure there are very talented people who would line up to treat 616 Spider-Man comic books better.

I'm done with this. You have your opinion, and as far as Joe Quesada is concerned, your opinion is obviously more valid than mine.

-Dan

[farmernudie]

All sad but true. Marvel did use to give us more for our money. The fan back in those days meant everything to Marvel.


I'm done with this. You have your opinion, and as far as Joe Quesada is concerned, your opinion is obviously more valid than mine.


^again, very well put. The guy buying/supporting Spidey comics from the beginning, helping make him a success, like some of us have, isn't seen as the "Fan to make happy" by Marvel these days it seems...

[shinlyle]

All sad but true. Marvel did use to give us more for our money. The fan back in those days meant everything to Marvel.



^again, very well put. The guy buying/supporting Spidey comics from the beginning, helping make him a success, like some of us have, isn't seen as the "Fan to make happy" by Marvel these days it seems...


Well, Marvel is hellbent on bringing in "new fans" and creating a "younger fanbase". Both are neccesary to keep the medium alive, no doubt, but that also means that they are trying to constantly makes things "new" and "hip" to draw in the younger crowd. This is a disastrous way to think. When you constantly change things and alienate the older fans, you do far more damage than you do good.

How many of us have given a kid comics or taken a cousin or a brother to the comic book shop and gottent hem started on a collection of their own? I know I've done it for 5 or 6 that I know of. Now, if the books continue on this downward slide, how can I possibly justify passing this crap off to anyone with a large enough brain to read?

Ugh. I just wish Marvel would concentrate on making good books as opposed to getting a comic in the news every year. Don't get me wrong, events like CW, The Death of Superman, Batman being Broken, and all the like can generate alot of attention...but look at the recession that came after the death of the big "S"....

[ragingdemon155]

All it means is that kainedamo is not a traditional fan of Spider-Man. Dan1 is a traditional fan of Spider-Man. It doesn't mean that one is a better or bigger fan of Spider-Man. If you really want to gauge who is the "better" or the "bigger" fan the two gentleman should have a battle in Spider-Man trivia. From 1962 to present day and see who comes out on top. Then they can bicker about who is the better Spider-Man fan.

Besides it always gives me a chuckle when posters on here go around accusing other posters of not being "fans" because they enjoy something that the majority around here doesn't enjoy. It's like the schoolyard bully beating you up everyday because you said that Sins Past was an all right story. Heh.

I agree completely with this.

I never understood the term "real" or "true" fan. A fan is a fan and thats that.

[JayTee]

JMS off Amazing:

This is long overdue, but DEAR GOD YES.

[Captivated]

Well, Marvel is hellbent on bringing in "new fans" and creating a "younger fanbase". Both are neccesary to keep the medium alive, no doubt, but that also means that they are trying to constantly makes things "new" and "hip" to draw in the younger crowd. This is a disastrous way to think. When you constantly change things and alienate the older fans, you do far more damage than you do good.

How many of us have given a kid comics or taken a cousin or a brother to the comic book shop and gottent hem started on a collection of their own? I know I've done it for 5 or 6 that I know of. Now, if the books continue on this downward slide, how can I possibly justify passing this crap off to anyone with a large enough brain to read?

Ugh. I just wish Marvel would concentrate on making good books as opposed to getting a comic in the news every year. Don't get me wrong, events like CW, The Death of Superman, Batman being Broken, and all the like can generate alot of attention...but look at the recession that came after the death of the big "S"....
The original - and BEST - Spider-Man comics were pretty much ageless. When something is good... with quality and depth, it has mass appeal.

But, if they were interested in GOOD stories they would have done more with writers like Sean McKeever... (I'm going to be bitter about HIS loss for awhile...)

[Ultimate Kaine]

Fans turning on fans? This is pathetic - we should focus on our common likes/dislikes (there have to be some!) and build from there. I hate the internet... never any of this crap in comic shops/conventions (previously the only places for fans to commune, and it never lead to fistfights).

[SpideyInATree]

Fans turning on fans? This is pathetic - we should focus on our common likes/dislikes (there have to be some!) and build from there. I hate the internet... never any of this crap in comic shops/conventions (previously the only places for fans to commune, and it never lead to fistfights).

I remember being much younger and going into my local shop and the guys there would always be in a huge heated discussion. I wouldn't have called it fighting but it is basically along the lines of what goes on here. Maybe a little more tame at the shop than here. But here on the Internet we're all basically faceless people to one another and it's easy to act like a hard ass when you're typing on the Internet.

[matt50]

I remember being much younger and going into my local shop and the guys there would always be in a huge heated discussion. I wouldn't have called it fighting but it is basically along the lines of what goes on here. Maybe a little more tame at the shop than here. But here on the Internet we're all basically faceless people to one another and it's easy to act like a hard ass when you're typing on the Internet.


lol an "internet tough guy"

[SpideyInATree]

Yeah, you gotta watch your back around the Internet tough guys. They'll call your mom and ***** and then slap their monitor! :wow:

[matt50]

Yeah, you gotta watch your back around the Internet tough guys. They'll call your mom and ***** and then slap their monitor! :wow:


:wow: :wow: :wow: