Donner Cut = Rubbish. Discuss.

[Upper_Krust]

Hey everyone! :)

I just got to see the Richard Donner cut of Superman II on Friday night and all I could think was thank heavens this was not the version released because it was rubbish.

Over the past few months the hype has been building up, and people have been singing its praises. But after having seen it, Richard Lester's version blows it out of the water. I was watching it with a group of friends and they were all disappointed.

Okay, so thats just my opinion, so lets get to the details of why.

1. Illogical

1a. Lois Shooting Clark with blanks and then he reveals his identity. Superman could see whether there was a bullet coming at him or not. When he saw there was not he should have just fainted.

1b. What was the point of Superman transforming into a human. He had already slept with Lois, so clearly it was safe to biologically 'love' her.

1c. The Rocky fight at the end. Given that Superman had went back in time. Superman basically beat up Rocky for something he didn't do.

2. Less Action/Excitement

2a. No Kryptonians versus the locals! That scene built up the menace nicely and got them noticed by the media in the first place. Here we just get them talking to the media with no reason for why a camera crew was there.

2b. No fight between Superman and the Kryptonians at the Fortress of Solitude. Okay, so Superman purists will roll their eyes at some of the powers and the plastic 'S', but it was a cool, interesting scene that was alot better than Superman just giving up (which he does in the Donner cut).

3. Less Fun

3a. The scene with the Sheriff and his Deputy encountering the Kryptonians for the first time was cut to ribbons.

3b. The 'bar room brawl' with the Kryptonians in the town was also cut.

4. Less Dramatic

4a. No "General Zod...would you care to step outside" line. Richard Donner cut the best line in the movie. The iconic Superman smack talk. Frankly I was sickened to the pit of my stomach that Donner cut this line.

4b. No replacing the flag on the Whitehouse. Now I am not an American, but even I felt the gravitas of that scene. Again cut by Donner.

5. Devils Advocate...was it all so bad...?

Okay, there were a few good scenes added, but nothing removed (with the possible exception of the Brando scene) was removed for the better.

5a. The Lois falling out the window scene was a nice scene.

5b. The Lois shooting Clark scene had one good line (the one about the price of roses).

5c. I think there were some extra moments at the Whitehouse that were good (such as Zod using the M16).

5d. Lex taking the coffee from Jimmy. Jimmy being mistaken for Superman.

All of the above could have been added to the Lester cut. Its not the additions I am criticising, it is the replacements and scenes from the original that were deleted.

Overall.

To think that Richard Donner will get paid for this is the biggest insult since Bryan Singer cashed a cheque for $50 million dollars for Superman Returns.

Speaking of which, going by the Donner Cut, Superman and Lois never slept together!

The true unsung hero of all this is Richard Lester.

[November Rain]

pwned...

[Kevin Roegele]

Hey everyone! :)

I just got to see the Richard Donner cut of Superman II on Friday night and all I could think was thank heavens this was not the version released because it was rubbish.

Over the past few months the hype has been building up, and people have been singing its praises. But after having seen it, Richard Lester's version blows it out of the water. I was watching it with a group of friends and they were all disappointed.

Okay, so thats just my opinion, so lets get to the details of why.

1. Illogical



1a. Lois Shooting Clark with blanks and then he reveals his identity. Superman could see whether there was a bullet coming at him or not. When he saw there was not he should have just fainted.

1b. What was the point of Superman transforming into a human. He had already slept with Lois, so clearly it was safe to biologically 'love' her.

1c. The Rocky fight at the end. Given that Superman had went back in time. Superman basically beat up Rocky for something he didn't do.

2. Less Action/Excitement

2a. No Kryptonians versus the locals! That scene built up the menace nicely and got them noticed by the media in the first place. Here we just get them talking to the media with no reason for why a camera crew was there.

2b. No fight between Superman and the Kryptonians at the Fortress of Solitude. Okay, so Superman purists will roll their eyes at some of the powers and the plastic 'S', but it was a cool, interesting scene that was alot better than Superman just giving up (which he does in the Donner cut).

3. Less Fun

3a. The scene with the Sheriff and his Deputy encountering the Kryptonians for the first time was cut to ribbons.

3b. The 'bar room brawl' with the Kryptonians in the town was also cut.

4. Less Dramatic

4a. No "General Zod...would you care to step outside" line. Richard Donner cut the best line in the movie. The iconic Superman smack talk. Frankly I was sickened to the pit of my stomach that Donner cut this line.

4b. No replacing the flag on the Whitehouse. Now I am not an American, but even I felt the gravitas of that scene. Again cut by Donner.

5. Devils Advocate...was it all so bad...?

Okay, there were a few good scenes added, but nothing removed (with the possible exception of the Brando scene) was removed for the better.

5a. The Lois falling out the window scene was a nice scene.

5b. The Lois shooting Clark scene had one good line (the one about the price of roses).

5c. I think there were some extra moments at the Whitehouse that were good (such as Zod using the M16).

5d. Lex taking the coffee from Jimmy. Jimmy being mistaken for Superman.

All of the above could have been added to the Lester cut. Its not the additions I am criticising, it is the replacements and scenes from the original that were deleted.

Overall.

To think that Richard Donner will get paid for this is the biggest insult since Bryan Singer cashed a cheque for $50 million dollars for Superman Returns.

Speaking of which, going by the Donner Cut, Superman and Lois never slept together!

The true unsung hero of all this is Richard Lester.

You act as if the DVD was 'The Best Elements of Donner and Lester Cut.' It's not. It's the 'Richard Donner Cut.'

1a. Superman does not have his x-ray vision on 24/7. Why would he assume Lois might have blanks? They are harder to come by than real bullets.

1b. The point of Superman giving up his powers is so he can become a human being and live a normal life with Lois. If he has his powers he'll always go and help people. If it was Superman giving up his powers for sex, as you assume, it would be awful and cheapen the character.

1c. No. He never beat up Rocky for revenge - that's not a Superman concept. He needed to teach that bully a lesson, and failed the first time. Rocky was waiting for him comepppance.

2a & b. Donner wanted to use the least Lester footage he could.

3a & b. Donner wanted to cut all the slapstick comedy.

4a. Again, "Care to step outside?" was a Lester line. The freedom of the press line was Donner. It's the Donner cut, hence the Donner line.

4b. Obviously the White House scene is gone because Supes has turned back time. If he went to the White House they would have no idea what he was talking about.

[Fried Gold]

1a. Lois Shooting Clark with blanks and then he reveals his identity. Superman could see whether there was a bullet coming at him or not. When he saw there was not he should have just fainted.

But it was better than falling into a little log fire...

1b. What was the point of Superman transforming into a human. He had already slept with Lois, so clearly it was safe to biologically 'love' her.Spanner. It's not about sleaping with Lois, it's about removing the burden of responsibilty so he lead a normal life with the woman he loves.

1c. The Rocky fight at the end. Given that Superman had went back in time. Superman basically beat up Rocky for something he didn't do.I felt the cut could've done without this scene, but it's still quite nice.

2a. No Kryptonians versus the locals! That scene built up the menace nicely and got them noticed by the media in the first place. Here we just get them talking to the media with no reason for why a camera crew was there.I wouldn't call Ursa having an arm wrestle with some hick 'menacing'.

2b. No fight between Superman and the Kryptonians at the Fortress of Solitude. Okay, so Superman purists will roll their eyes at some of the powers and the plastic 'S', but it was a cool, interesting scene that was alot better than Superman just giving up (which he does in the Donner cut).No, this new version was miles better than Made up powers-man.

3a. The scene with the Sheriff and his Deputy encountering the Kryptonians for the first time was cut to ribbons.Unnecessary humour, taking away the actual threat.

3b. The 'bar room brawl' with the Kryptonians in the town was also cut.Thank God.

4a. No "General Zod...would you care to step outside" line. Richard Donner cut the best line in the movie. The iconic Superman smack talk. Frankly I was sickened to the pit of my stomach that Donner cut this line.I really liked that line, but as stated above, it's the Donner cut.

4b. No replacing the flag on the Whitehouse. Now I am not an American, but even I felt the gravitas of that scene. Again cut by Donner.The scene could not have stayed, given the new ending...

Speaking of which, going by the Donner Cut, Superman and Lois never slept together!It's almost as though you think that the original Superman films are in strict continuity with Superman Returns...

[Captain Villa]

We're seeing the "vision" not the polished end product. He was never allowed to finish it to get it all done with the edges knocked off.

Thats why Lesters looks better.

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kevin! :)

You act as if the DVD was 'The Best Elements of Donner and Lester Cut.' It's not. It's the 'Richard Donner Cut.'

I can only comment on whats before me. Some of the additions were cool, but virtually every deletion was a bad decision in my opinion.

Donner's Cut was interesting, but ultimately makes for a much weaker movie.

Personally I would love to see an extended cut which keeps virtually all of the Lester material but adds the extra Donner material wherein possible.

1a. Superman does not have his x-ray vision on 24/7. Why would he assume Lois might have blanks? They are harder to come by than real bullets.

But he owns up after she fires the gun. He could easily see there was no bullet.

1b. The point of Superman giving up his powers is so he can become a human being and live a normal life with Lois. If he has his powers he'll always go and help people. If it was Superman giving up his powers for sex, as you assume, it would be awful and cheapen the character.

But thats idiotic (as represented by the fact that in the comics he doesn't need to surrender his power to live with Lois). It makes far more sense in the Lester version.

1c. No. He never beat up Rocky for revenge - that's not a Superman concept. He needed to teach that bully a lesson, and failed the first time. Rocky was waiting for him comepppance.

It didn't work in that context though. Superman beat a guy up for his past, and/or future actions, not for what he was currently doing. It was vigilante style retribution.

2a & b. Donner wanted to use the least Lester footage he could.

3a & b. Donner wanted to cut all the slapstick comedy.

I understand that, but in so doing he really nerfed a lot of the cool stuff.

The exception being the overtly goofy vignettes when the mob of people attack Zod in the street.

4a. Again, "Care to step outside?" was a Lester line. The freedom of the press line was Donner. It's the Donner cut, hence the Donner line.

I know that - and I am simply stating which one is better...FAR better.

4b. Obviously the White House scene is gone because Supes has turned back time. If he went to the White House they would have no idea what he was talking about.

Indeed. But I am talking within the context of closing a movie. The White House scene has much more gravitas than Lois wanting a pizza.

Next thing you'll be telling me a big finale from a hospital bed is the way to go. :whatever:

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fried Gold! :)

But it was better than falling into a little log fire...

I disagree. That was in keeping with the bungling persona of Clark Kent. Superman may have subconsciously wanted to tell Lois the truth (which he half admits after the fact) hence the trip.

Spanner. It's not about sleaping with Lois, it's about removing the burden of responsibilty so he lead a normal life with the woman he loves.

Its got Singerman written all over it.

I felt the cut could've done without this scene, but it's still quite nice.

It works in the original context of the Lester cut, not here.

I wouldn't call Ursa having an arm wrestle with some hick 'menacing'.

I think it was a great insight into their characters. Evil for its own sake.

No, this new version was miles better than Made up powers-man.

Yet they still kept the levitating shotgun trick in...go figure.

The fight scene in the Fortress was cool and original, if distancing itself slightly from the comics. In that capacity the new stuff was forgivable.

Unnecessary humour, taking away the actual threat.

Not at all, simply because Zod doesn't join in the fun and we gradually get to see his patience wearing thin, before he starts shouting at the American General.

Non is stupid, Ursa is wicked, while Zod is evil. We get to see that here in a microcosm.

Thank God.

...Zod. :oldrazz:

I really liked that line, but as stated above, it's the Donner cut.

I'm only stating which is better.

The scene could not have stayed, given the new ending...

See my previous reply to Kevin Roegele.

It's almost as though you think that the original Superman films are in strict continuity with Superman Returns...

I think the only thing we can be certain of is that Bryan Singer doesn't have a clue where hes following on from.

[FlawlessVictory]

1b. The point of Superman giving up his powers is so he can become a human being and live a normal life with Lois. If he has his powers he'll always go and help people. If it was Superman giving up his powers for sex, as you assume, it would be awful and cheapen the character.

Bingo!

[FlawlessVictory]

4. Less Dramatic

4a. No "General Zod...would you care to step outside" line. Richard Donner cut the best line in the movie. The iconic Superman smack talk. Frankly I was sickened to the pit of my stomach that Donner cut this line.

4b. No replacing the flag on the Whitehouse. Now I am not an American, but even I felt the gravitas of that scene. Again cut by Donner.

I thought the Donner Cut was much more dramatic because of the removal of the slapstick comedy and the addition of the Brando scenes. The entire scene where Jor-El is saying to Kal-El "Look at me!" is pretty intense and I would say much more dramatic than anything that is in the Lester cut.

I do prefer the "General Zod, would you care to step outside" line as well. I also agree that Donner should have used(even if he didn't film it) the placing of the flag on the Whitehouse. That scene with the transition of Superman flying over the earth ends the movie perfectly.

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Captain Villa! :)

We're seeing the "vision" not the polished end product. He was never allowed to finish it to get it all done with the edges knocked off.

Thats why Lesters looks better.

Thats not what I am talking about at all. I'm not talking about production quality.

All I am saying is that the story/scenes/dialogue in the Lester version work a hell of a lot better than what Richard Donner had planned.

In that respect I find the original Lester version far more satisfying in almost* every single way.

*The exceptions being the less goofy vignettes of the mob, and the added Brando footage.

The other additions are great, but the stuff that was cut from Lester's version doesn't make for a better movie. That is the point I am trying to make.

Donner's Cut was an interesting aside, but no more than that.

Personally I'd love to see the Lester version with the added Donner footage (in places where it doesn't conflict, like Lois falling out the window, Zod firing the M16, etc.)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi FlawlessVictory! :)

I thought the Donner Cut was much more dramatic because of the removal of the slapstick comedy and the addition of the Brando scenes. The entire scene where Jor-El is saying to Kal-El "Look at me!" is pretty intense and I would say much more dramatic than anything that is in the Lester cut.

It goes without saying the Brando scenes were awesome. Those were the one element I thought warranted the replacement.

The slapstick elements of the mob I also agree with, should have been deleted, because they were just far too over the top (although you'll note they kept in the guy on roller skates briefly).

But not the humor of the Sheriff/Deputy, Bar Room Brawl and basically the whole town scene. I thought that was fantastic.

I do prefer the "General Zod, would you care to step outside" line as well. I also agree that Donner should have used(even if he didn't film it) the placing of the flag on the Whitehouse. That scene with the transition of Superman flying over the earth ends the movie perfectly.

Those are the two most iconic moments in the movie. Just didn't feel like Superman II without them.

[Kevin Roegele]

UpperKrust, let's go back to the Rocky in the diner stuff.

The point of the scenes is to illustrate the Clark is supposed to be Superman. The guy is the diner is obviously a bully and always will be until he's taught a lesson. But Superman, the man who is there to do that stuff, has given up his powers, so when he should be teaching this guy a lesson, he gets his ass kicked.

(And then the sheer genius drama of having Zod appear on TV.....Clark got his ass handed to him by what should be small fry to him, and now General Zod is on earth. Sends shivers down my spine. I wrote about the brilliance of that scene for Media Studies and got an A. Anyway....)

When Clark returns to the diner at the end, of course it's not revenge or Donner & co would never have included it. It's Superman righting a wrong. It seems very much like a revenge attack I agree, but it isn't.

[bunk]

Do they still have the president of the United States saying the rest of the world has given him the right to speak for all of them in their behalf? If anything should be cut out of that movie, it's that scene. One of the most ridiculous things I've seen ever on film.

[Freddy_Krueger]

Nope, that was actually a Donner thing and left in.

[Kevin Roegele]

Do they still have the president of the United States saying the rest of the world has given him the right to speak for all of them in their behalf? If anything should be cut out of that movie, it's that scene. One of the most ridiculous things I've seen ever on film.

The President has to speak on behalf of the world, Zod and co are in the White House, not at the UN.

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kevin! :)

UpperKrust, let's go back to the Rocky in the diner stuff.

Okay.

The point of the scenes is to illustrate the Clark is supposed to be Superman. The guy is the diner is obviously a bully and always will be until he's taught a lesson. But Superman, the man who is there to do that stuff, has given up his powers, so when he should be teaching this guy a lesson, he gets his ass kicked.

You are missing the point I am making.

In the Donner Cut, Superman goes back in time to before his encounter with Rocky, THEN he goes and seeks out Rocky and beats him up for a 'crime he didn't commit' basically. In that time stream he had never encountered Rocky before. Its a a vigilante action - pure and simple.

(And then the sheer genius drama of having Zod appear on TV.....Clark got his ass handed to him by what should be small fry to him, and now General Zod is on earth. Sends shivers down my spine. I wrote about the brilliance of that scene for Media Studies and got an A. Anyway....)

Well done, but you'll find I am a tougher sell than your Media Studies teacher. ;)

When Clark returns to the diner at the end, of course it's not revenge or Donner & co would never have included it. It's Superman righting a wrong. It seems very much like a revenge attack I agree, but it isn't.

It doesn't make sense after Superman going back in time, it only makes sense in the Lester cut.

[bunk]

The President has to speak on behalf of the world, Zod and co are in the White House, not at the UN.

I understand why they wrote that in. It's just completely ubsurd, the idea of any country letting the US speak for it. Imagine China or North Korea just handing over control like that. There would be riots all across the globe just for that alone. It's just poor writing. But than again so is Superman turning back time, so I guess it doesn't matter.

[SweetTooth]

I loved seeing all the deleted/alternate scenes in the donner cut. But as a movie i thought the donner cut didn't work, it felt too incomplete. It only worked for me as a collection of deleted scenes. I, by far prefer the theatrical cut. It's much more fun and exciting and feels like a complete film.

[Marcus M.]

I never considered those made up powers in the Lester cut when they had that little fight in the fortress. I always thought of it as Superman using technology in the fortress.

[Kevin Roegele]

You are missing the point I am making.

In the Donner Cut, Superman goes back in time to before his encounter with Rocky, THEN he goes and seeks out Rocky and beats him up for a 'crime he didn't commit' basically. In that time stream he had never encountered Rocky before. Its a a vigilante action - pure and simple.



No, you're missing my point.

Forget Rocky beating up Clark.

Rocky is a bully. That's the point of the character. Clark, as Superman, is supposed to deal with bullies. He's there to give Rocky his comeuppance. He's not able to. When he gets his powers back, he shows that he finally is doing what he is supposed to do, take care of bullies like Rocky.

Revenge has nothing to do with it. The fact that Superman turned back time has nothing to do with it. It was a wrong that needed to be righted. Supes couldn't do it the first time. He does it the second time. That's why the staff and customers are so delighted when Clark does take care of Rocky. He did it for them, not himself.

[Kevin Roegele]

I understand why they wrote that in. It's just completely ubsurd, the idea of any country letting the US speak for it. Imagine China or North Korea just handing over control like that. There would be riots all across the globe just for that alone. It's just poor writing. But than again so is Superman turning back time, so I guess it doesn't matter.

This was 1980, the world was a different place. First of all, the US would assume Zod and co were Russian. Regardless, it's not bad writing.

[bunk]

This was 1980, the world was a different place. First of all, the US would assume Zod and co were Russian. Regardless, it's not bad writing.


No, it really is. Funny you even mention the Russians, they'd let themselves be wiped off the planet before they'd give the US contol of their lives. Half the planet would think it was some bulls*** the US made up. They could've made it clear in the story that Zod had plans to move on to the rest of the world. That would've been added drama knowing Zod and co were about to start wrecking a different country. Instead, the threat level had been decreased because the whole planet immedietely gave in.

[dude love]

Speaking of which, going by the Donner Cut, Superman and Lois never slept together!

The true unsung hero of all this is Richard Lester.

When Superman spins the world back in time, he starts to exist outside of time. Meaning, anything he did doesn't get reversed, because he's not physically there for things to be reversed. If Superman where to appear on Connan O'Brien, take a dump in his hair and then spin the world back in time, the turds would still be there, despite Connan forgetting Supes was on the show, likewise Supermans spooge was still in Lois while he was turning back time. Ever notice why you never saw two Supermans after he spun the world back in time?

[Morgoth]

Donner's cut is the only way to watch 2. Lester's crap is just that, crap. This one has no cheese at all. Richard did a great first film, and it is great to see his sequel to that first great film. Nuff said.

[the_narc_2000]

Do they still have the president of the United States saying the rest of the world has given him the right to speak for all of them in their behalf? If anything should be cut out of that movie, it's that scene. One of the most ridiculous things I've seen ever on film.

Well, in the original screenplay, the supervillains attack many other countries of the world and destroy their monuments. Lester decided it would be better for them to attack a small hick town. :whatever: So in the context of the original storyline, the President surrendering on behalf of the world makes sense.

[Kevin Roegele]

No, it really is. Funny you even mention the Russians, they'd let themselves be wiped off the planet before they'd give the US contol of their lives. Half the planet would think it was some bulls*** the US made up. They could've made it clear in the story that Zod had plans to move on to the rest of the world. That would've been added drama knowing Zod and co were about to start wrecking a different country. Instead, the threat level had been decreased because the whole planet immedietely gave in.

No, the threat level increased to the maximum right there. The entire earth gave up. Superman was the one hope of the entire planet - and he was watching helpless and bleeding. That's good writing.

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again Kevin! :)

No, you're missing my point.

Forget Rocky beating up Clark.

Rocky is a bully. That's the point of the character. Clark, as Superman, is supposed to deal with bullies. He's there to give Rocky his comeuppance. He's not able to. When he gets his powers back, he shows that he finally is doing what he is supposed to do, take care of bullies like Rocky.

Revenge has nothing to do with it. The fact that Superman turned back time has nothing to do with it. It was a wrong that needed to be righted. Supes couldn't do it the first time. He does it the second time. That's why the staff and customers are so delighted when Clark does take care of Rocky. He did it for them, not himself.

Rocky was not causing any trouble when Supes entered the diner at the end of the Donner Cut. Supes baited him with trash talk (I mean who wouldn't defend themselves after that) then beat him up. Its got vigilante written all over it.

[Upper_Krust]

Hello there! :)

When Superman spins the world back in time, he starts to exist outside of time. Meaning, anything he did doesn't get reversed, because he's not physically there for things to be reversed. If Superman where to appear on Connan O'Brien, take a dump in his hair and then spin the world back in time, the turds would still be there, despite Connan forgetting Supes was on the show, likewise Supermans spooge was still in Lois while he was turning back time. Ever notice why you never saw two Supermans after he spun the world back in time?

Given that you can't 'spin the world back' it had to be time travel.

As for why you didn't see two Supermen, obviously the other one was off stopping the initial nuclear missile.

But I don't want to debate the exact science of time travel with you because there isn't any.

The bottom line is that Rocky had never met Supes before in the Donner Cut ~ which made Supes actions akin to a vigilante.

[Fried Gold]

I never considered those made up powers in the Lester cut when they had that little fight in the fortress. I always thought of it as Superman using technology in the fortress.And what about Zod & Co. shooting blue lasers out of their fingers, and then performing vanishing tricks?

[Fried Gold]

Given that you can't 'spin the world back' it had to be time travel.

As for why you didn't see two Supermen, obviously the other one was off stopping the initial nuclear missile.No, Superman's time line is linear. There would be two Supermen if he went back in time, but he didn't go back in time at all. He just reversed what had been done. There is existing scientific theory suggesting that once the universe has expanded it's furthest, it will collapse back in on itself and time will run in reverse. Essentially, what Supes did is force the issue.

What you're suggesting is that a second Superman pops out of thin air whilst the other is spinning around the Earth, and then starts doing everything backwards. Which is silly.

[bunk]

No, the threat level increased to the maximum right there. The entire earth gave up. Superman was the one hope of the entire planet - and he was watching helpless and bleeding. That's good writing.


Yeah, the entire Earth gave up, so basically Zod and his crew had no reason to continue destroying the planet. The whole planet was suddenly safer than it was 5 minutes before, when it should've been the other way around. The writer basically blew his load too soon.

[Kevin Roegele]

Rocky was not causing any trouble when Supes entered the diner at the end of the Donner Cut.

No, but we all know he's a bully. The staff and customers are clearly scared of him.

Supes baited him with trash talk (I mean who wouldn't defend themselves after that) then beat him up. Its got vigilante written all over it.

Supes wanted to show him what it's like when someone stands up to him.

[captain_jimbo]

Why can't people just watch something and enjoy it without having to criticise? The reason that there are plot holes in Donner's cut is because he never got to finish it properly. How about all those who criticise it, go off and make their own movie, come back and show us, then we'll compare them?

[Kevin Roegele]

Why can't people just watch something and enjoy it without having to criticise?

Oh, Hollywood loves it people who say that, it means they can pump out crap like Scooby Doo 2 and Into the Blue.

[Marcus M.]

And what about Zod & Co. shooting blue lasers out of their fingers, and then performing vanishing tricks?

Uh...well...Ok.

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fried Gold! :)

No, Superman's time line is linear. There would be two Supermen if he went back in time, but he didn't go back in time at all. He just reversed what had been done. There is existing scientific theory suggesting that once the universe has expanded it's furthest, it will collapse back in on itself and time will run in reverse. Essentially, what Supes did is force the issue.

I don't like that idea.

Out of curiousity I haven't listed to directors commentaries on either S1 or Donner's S2 yet. Do they explain the time travel at all?

What you're suggesting is that a second Superman pops out of thin air whilst the other is spinning around the Earth, and then starts doing everything backwards. Which is silly.

No. What I am suggesting is that when he used Earths gravity to exceed light speed he was going back in time - thus creating a divergent time stream.

But like I said I don't really want to argue time travel because its far too subjective.

[Upper_Krust]

And what about Zod & Co. shooting blue lasers out of their fingers, and then performing vanishing tricks?

Very cool!

"Psyche him!"

Zod was a really cool villain. But you just know if Singer gets his hands on him the dials on the pinkometer will go up to 11.

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kev! :)

No, but we all know he's a bully. The staff and customers are clearly scared of him.

Supes wanted to show him what it's like when someone stands up to him.

We know that Saddam Hussein is a bully, but its still wrong to invade under a false pretense (that he might have/use nukes in the future) - which is exactly what we have here.

Superman beats up Rocky with the excuse that he might cause trouble in the future.

[Upper_Krust]

Hey c_j! :)

Why can't people just watch something and enjoy it without having to criticise?

Its called freedom of speech*.

*I almost snuck in "haven't you ever heard of freedom of the press?" - but its such a lame line. :oldrazz:

As Kevin (Roegele) already mentioned, once people stop having an opinion, Hollywood will just spoon feed them rubbish after rubbish.

The reason that there are plot holes in Donner's cut is because he never got to finish it properly.

Is there anywhere in the commentary where he states he was going to add in extra scenes?

Any new action scenes to cut out the ones deleted from the Lester cut? If not he was creating another snoozefest like Superman Returns.

How about all those who criticise it, go off and make their own movie, come back and show us, then we'll compare them?

I tell you what, I darn well could make a better Superman movie than Donner or Singer - in fact both together, for half the budget of SR.

[C. Lee]

I tell you what, I darn well could make a better Superman movie than Donner or Singer - in fact both together, for half the budget of SR.
Just when I thought you couldn't top the absurdity of your first post.....you massively succeed.
http://www.w3bdevil.com/forums/LOL-Doggie.jpg

[Super Kal]

Hey c_j! :)



Its called freedom of speech*.

*I almost snuck in "haven't you ever heard of freedom of the press?" - but its such a lame line. :oldrazz:

As Kevin (Roegele) already mentioned, once people stop having an opinion, Hollywood will just spoon feed them rubbish after rubbish.



Is there anywhere in the commentary where he states he was going to add in extra scenes?

Any new action scenes to cut out the ones deleted from the Lester cut? If not he was creating another snoozefest like Superman Returns.



I tell you what, I darn well could make a better Superman movie than Donner or Singer - in fact both together, for half the budget of SR.

I would LOVE to see you try...

[dude love]

Hi there buddy :yay:

Hello there! :)



Given that you can't 'spin the world back' it had to be time travel.

Given he did spin the world back. It was time travel. Remember he had to spin the Earth back the some way to stop time from going back any further than he wanted.

As for why you didn't see two Supermen, obviously the other one was off stopping the initial nuclear missile.

Except if that where the case Donner would've filmed two superman to establish that as fact.

But I don't want to debate the exact science of time travel with you because there isn't any.

I can't debate the exact science. But I'm going as close as I can.

The bottom line is that Rocky had never met Supes before in the Donner Cut ~ which made Supes actions akin to a vigilante.

No. He was a bully. He had to beat him up. For the sake of the owners and regular patrons who he always bullies.

[Fried Gold]

I don't like that idea.Dude, you can't just dismiss the most plausible and scientifically sound idea presented with 'I don't like that idea'.

IF he went back in time, and the visual of the world spinning was just time travel in easy to handle bit sized chunks, then yeah, there would be two of them, but in my opinion, I'd rather follow the science.

[Fried Gold]

Very cool!

"Psyche him!"I don't like that idea.

[Lead Cenobite]

I kindof agree. I liked the Donner cut for giving us the opportunity to see the old footage we've been waiting to see for years. But I still prefer Lester's cut. The Donner cut's just not edited that well, and could have used some of Lester's footage aswell. Ok, yeah, it's the DONNER cut, we get that. We understand why there's hardly any Lester footage in it, that doesn't mean we have to love it. Some of us want to see the best cut possible of Superman II, not just as much Donner footage as possible.

[AndrewGilkison]

1a. Lois Shooting Clark with blanks and then he reveals his identity. Superman could see whether there was a bullet coming at him or not. When he saw there was not he should have just fainted.

The whole "trip over a rug" crap from the Lester version was ten times more illogical then this scene. This scene makes Lois look smart by tricking Superman into revealing his secret ID, by catching him off guard. I can suspend my disbelief a whole lot better with that than with Superman tripping over a rug. :whatever:

1b. What was the point of Superman transforming into a human. He had already slept with Lois, so clearly it was safe to biologically 'love' her.

It never had anything to do with biology. As long as he had powers, Kal-El wouldn't be able to fully commit to Lois because he would have so many responsibilities as Superman. He picked one woman over the rest of the whole world. Sex had very little to do with it. Even in the Lester version, I got that from it. Only here, we get Brando instead of Susana York, and it all becomes so much better.

1c. The Rocky fight at the end. Given that Superman had went back in time. Superman basically beat up Rocky for something he didn't do.

Rocky seemed to me like he was a regular at that diner, and bullied everyone in there around freely, long before Clark and Lois showed up there. The point of the scene is that Superman is simply putting an obnoxious bully in his place.

2a. No Kryptonians versus the locals! That scene built up the menace nicely and got them noticed by the media in the first place. Here we just get them talking to the media with no reason for why a camera crew was there.

1. The scene on the moon with those three astronauts getting slaughtered built up their menace much better, as did them invading the white house and easily crushing the Secret Service and military defenses set up in there to get to the President.

2. The reason for the camera crew being there didn’t change. It was still because of the damage Zod and Co caused. Only difference is that a bunch of goofy campy nonsense was cut out of the film and we get to the aftermath of it, as well as the more effective slaughter of the U.S military. Zod telling the General that his superior now serves him made him and his two friends ten times scarier than the moronic scenes involving Ursha arm wrestling some hick through a table.

2b. No fight between Superman and the Kryptonians at the Fortress of Solitude. Okay, so Superman purists will roll their eyes at some of the powers and the plastic 'S', but it was a cool, interesting scene that was alot better than Superman just giving up (which he does in the Donner cut).

Given that he tricked them by switching the machine that made him human, and used it to turn them human, it sure as hell doesn’t come off to me like he “gave up”.

3. Less Fun

3a. The scene with the Sheriff and his Deputy encountering the Kryptonians for the first time was cut to ribbons.

3b. The 'bar room brawl' with the Kryptonians in the town was also cut.

Good. Those elements sucked anyway. They belonged in a goofy comedy, not in an Epic Superhero movie. The White House invasion did a much better job showcasing how powerful and destructive Zod and Co were, anyway.

4b. No replacing the flag on the Whitehouse. Now I am not an American, but even I felt the gravitas of that scene. Again cut by Donner.

Given that the ending was now different, that scene no longer had any place in the movie. Directors always cut good scenes from their movies when they don’t fit in with the final cut. And here, Donner is cutting out a scene that wasn’t even HIS to begin with. I’d say that because this is HIS cut of the film, he has every right to do that, just like Lester had every right to reshoot most of what Donner originally shot in order to get credit for directing the movie.

Okay, there were a few good scenes added, but nothing removed (with the possible exception of the Brando scene) was removed for the better.

The way Lois figures out Superman is Clark Kent is much better handled, as is that entire sub-plot of Lois suspecting Clark of being Supes. The way Lester handled that plot, and those scenes, really sucked. They were poorly scripted and shot.

The Small Town scenes with the Phantom Zone Villains were overly campy and served to make them less threatening. I am glad most of that crap is gone, because the movie is much better off without it.

The Plastic Candy Wrapper S stuff in the Fortress, as well as all the other “new” powers Lester gave Supes and the villains, were absolutely ridiculous. The finale with Lois’s life being threatened was ten times more intense without those bits in there as well.

5a. The Lois falling out the window scene was a nice scene.

5b. The Lois shooting Clark scene had one good line (the one about the price of roses).

5c. I think there were some extra moments at the Whitehouse that were good (such as Zod using the M16).

5d. Lex taking the coffee from Jimmy. Jimmy being mistaken for Superman.

All of the above could have been added to the Lester cut. Its not the additions I am criticising, it is the replacements and scenes from the original that were deleted.

The only good thing Lester added was the “Care to step outside Zod” line. Everything else about the movie that was “his” sucked, and I am glad most of it is gone in this new cut. Adding those Donner scenes to the Lester cut wouldn’t make it better, because most of the Lester crap would still be in there dragging it all down.

[Upper_Krust]

Hi C.Lee! :)

Just when I thought you couldn't top the absurdity of your first post.....you massively succeed.

What you fail to recognise is that I ain't joking.

[Upper_Krust]

Hey kakarot069! :)

I would LOVE to see you try...

The odds are obviously against it, but I'm confident I could do a better Superman movie than either. While I respct and admire both men, I don't see Superman Returns or Donner's Cut of Superman II as the finest hour of either.

While that may seem the ravings of a lunatic fanboy behind the obscurity that is the internet. In my defence I am a writer (albeit fledgeling) and I will eventually work in comics and hopefully movies at some point.

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there buddy :yay:

Hey dude love! :)

Given he did spin the world back. It was time travel. Remember he had to spin the Earth back the some way to stop time from going back any further than he wanted.

Obviously it was time travel of a fashion, but its the manner the time travel took that leads to confusion.

Except if that where the case Donner would've filmed two superman to establish that as fact.

Exactly, so how did he do it - in Donner's cut (at the start) we see him throw one of the missiles (in flight) up into space to shatter the Phantom Zone. Therefore we must assume both missiles were fired.

So if both missiles were in flight, and there was only one Superman, how did he stop both missiles?

I can't debate the exact science. But I'm going as close as I can.

Which doesn't cut it at all.

But then again, time travel can be a bit fishy, which is, as I said, why I don't want to debate the issue.

No. He was a bully. He had to beat him up. For the sake of the owners and regular patrons who he always bullies.

Superman had no proof he 'always bullied'. The Donner cut made Superman out to be the bully.

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Fried Gold! :)

Dude, you can't just dismiss the most plausible and scientifically sound idea presented with 'I don't like that idea'.

I can dismiss it because its not the most plausible explanation.

If Superman goes back in time and in so doing erases any temporal echo of himself because he is of linear time, then how does he stop both missiles, given that they were both fired simultaneously and Donner CLEARLY shows they were in flight when Supes threw one of the missiles into space to shatter the Phantom Zone.

Its possible (though not mentioned) that in the Donner Cut Lex only shoots off one missile (stupid - but in keeping with Lex's intelligence in Superman Returns), because otherwise Lois Lane would be dead.

IF he went back in time, and the visual of the world spinning was just time travel in easy to handle bit sized chunks, then yeah, there would be two of them, but in my opinion, I'd rather follow the science.

I'm happy to accept the linear jive, but it just doesn't gel with what we see either at the end of Sueprman I or the beginning of Superman II (Donners Cut).

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Andrew! :)

The whole "trip over a rug" crap from the Lester version was ten times more illogical then this scene. This scene makes Lois look smart by tricking Superman into revealing his secret ID, by catching him off guard. I can suspend my disbelief a whole lot better with that than with Superman tripping over a rug. :whatever:

Wrong - I already explain how the trip made much more sense.

Firstly Superman could see there was no bullet coming at him when Lois fired. Therefore he could have just fainted. There was no reason to reveal his identity at that point.

Whereas the trip was a subconscious manifestation of his will channelled through the bungling Kent persona. Deep down he wanted to tell Lois (which he more or less says after the fact).

It never had anything to do with biology. As long as he had powers, Kal-El wouldn't be able to fully commit to Lois because he would have so many responsibilities as Superman. He picked one woman over the rest of the whole world. Sex had very little to do with it. Even in the Lester version, I got that from it. Only here, we get Brando instead of Susana York, and it all becomes so much better.

So in the comics Superman hasn't yet fully committed to a relationship with Lois - is that what you are saying?

Rocky seemed to me like he was a regular at that diner, and bullied everyone in there around freely, long before Clark and Lois showed up there. The point of the scene is that Superman is simply putting an obnoxious bully in his place.

Superman had no proof that Rocky was a bully.

1. The scene on the moon with those three astronauts getting slaughtered built up their menace much better, as did them invading the white house and easily crushing the Secret Service and military defenses set up in there to get to the President.

Both of which were in the Lester cut so we lost nothing.

2. The reason for the camera crew being there didn’t change. It was still because of the damage Zod and Co caused.

But they didn't cause any damage (in the Donner Cut prior to the army showing up), so how did the camera crew know to be there!?

It was totally illogical in the Donner Cut.

Only difference is that a bunch of goofy campy nonsense was cut out of the film and we get to the aftermath of it, as well as the more effective slaughter of the U.S military. Zod telling the General that his superior now serves him made him and his two friends ten times scarier than the moronic scenes involving Ursha arm wrestling some hick through a table.

They slowly built up the menace by gradually escalating the violence.

Given that he tricked them by switching the machine that made him human, and used it to turn them human, it sure as hell doesn’t come off to me like he “gave up”.

Zod would not have fell for his capitulation so easily.

Good. Those elements sucked anyway. They belonged in a goofy comedy, not in an Epic Superhero movie. The White House invasion did a much better job showcasing how powerful and destructive Zod and Co were, anyway.

I disagree, those scenes, were fun AND menacing, thats the genius of them. I seem to recall when Zod throws the guy through a wall there is a change in the music that basically tells you that 'playtime is over'.

Given that the ending was now different, that scene no longer had any place in the movie. Directors always cut good scenes from their movies when they don’t fit in with the final cut. And here, Donner is cutting out a scene that wasn’t even HIS to begin with. I’d say that because this is HIS cut of the film, he has every right to do that, just like Lester had every right to reshoot most of what Donner originally shot in order to get credit for directing the movie.

I'm talking about in terms of the gravitas in closing out a movie. Not whether or not Donner has to use one scene or another.

Replacing the flag on the White House is a FAR, FAR more potent image than Lois Lane ordering a ******-******* pizza.

The way Lois figures out Superman is Clark Kent is much better handled, as is that entire sub-plot of Lois suspecting Clark of being Supes. The way Lester handled that plot, and those scenes, really sucked. They were poorly scripted and shot.

I already explain how you are wrong at the top of the post.

The Small Town scenes with the Phantom Zone Villains were overly campy and served to make them less threatening. I am glad most of that crap is gone, because the movie is much better off without it.

Totally disagree, they slowly built up the menace AND gave a plausible reason why a camera crew happened to be there - so wrong again on your part.

The Plastic Candy Wrapper S stuff in the Fortress, as well as all the other “new” powers Lester gave Supes and the villains, were absolutely ridiculous.

Yet Donner still kept in the force ray when Zod levitated the shotgun. :whatever:

The finale with Lois’s life being threatened was ten times more intense without those bits in there as well.

I disagree again. Without those bits it looked like Superman gave up without a fight.

In fact it paralleled the earlier line "No one who rules so many would kneel so quickly".

He needed the fights in the Fortress to make his ploy believable.

The only good thing Lester added was the “Care to step outside Zod” line. Everything else about the movie that was “his” sucked, and I am glad most of it is gone in this new cut. Adding those Donner scenes to the Lester cut wouldn’t make it better, because most of the Lester crap would still be in there dragging it all down.

Well thats your opinion which I have objectively shown to be wrong.

The bottom line is this. You can say you prefered the Donner cut - thats fair enough. What you can't say is that it was more entertaining, more fun, more action packed or more logical - because it was simply none of those things.

[Fried Gold]

Both of which were in the Lester cut so we lost nothing.False. There was no Zod gunning people down in the Lester cut.

[FreeRadical]

Donner cut...rubbish? The film is disjointed, but Donner did actually film 70% of SII during the filming of Superman. His version was darker, especially with Supes disagreeing with his father.

If you want rubbish, watch the deleted scenes from Superman IV....

[Upper_Krust]

False. There was no Zod gunning people down in the Lester cut.

I said the attack on the White House scene (in general) was still in the Lester version, not that it had every individual moment of shot footage included regarding the White House.

[Upper_Krust]

Hi FreeRadical! :)

Donner cut...rubbish? The film is disjointed, but Donner did actually film 70% of SII during the filming of Superman.

I find the Lester version to be a far superior entity.

I'm only criticising the changes Donner imposed, not the movie itself.

His version was darker, especially with Supes disagreeing with his father.

I agree Donner's version is 'darker', but its not more entertaining.

If you want rubbish, watch the deleted scenes from Superman IV....

If you offered me the choice I would rather watch Superman IV (simply because I haven't seen it in quite a while).

[AndrewGilkison]

Hi Andrew! :)

Wrong - I already explain how the trip made much more sense.

Firstly Superman could see there was no bullet coming at him when Lois fired. Therefore he could have just fainted. There was no reason to reveal his identity at that point.

Whereas the trip was a subconscious manifestation of his will channelled through the bungling Kent persona. Deep down he wanted to tell Lois (which he more or less says after the fact).

Whatever. The other scene is better because it makes Lois actually work at finding out his secret. If Clark wanted to tell Lois, he probably would have JUST TOLD HER instead of tripping over a rug. If Lester did it that way, it would've been a lot better replacement of what Donner originally planned than what he created.

So in the comics Superman hasn't yet fully committed to a relationship with Lois - is that what you are saying?

Ummm. This movie came out in the early 1980s. It was filmed in late 1970s. Back then, there is no way in hell Lois would've married Superman. This was still pre-chrisis Superman, long before John Bryne came in and rebooted him.

It is absolutely weak for you to use what happened in a 1990's comic (ten years or so after Supes II) to try and invalidate my point. Absolutely weak. Come on, you can do better than that.

Superman had no proof that Rocky was a bully.

Ummmm... if it was obvious to me, I am sure it was obvious to Superman.

Both of which were in the Lester cut so we lost nothing.

I don't think you understand how film editing works. Even good scenes get cut when they don't flow with the rest of the movie, and this was a stupid scene that deserved to be cut. It was a British director's take on what a small american town was. It didn't belong with the rest of the movie. It didn't fit the tone of what Donner wanted the movie to be, so he cut it.

But they didn't cause any damage (in the Donner Cut prior to the army showing up), so how did the camera crew know to be there!?

It was totally illogical in the Donner Cut.

They did cause damage there. You just didn't see it because it now happened off screen. That works a lot better then those stupid scenes anyway, so I am glad they went with that idea.


They slowly built up the menace by gradually escalating the violence.

We got that aspect of it on the moon, followed by the scene with the cops. That was enough. We didn't need those scenes in that bar at all.

Zod would not have fell for his capitulation so easily

He fell for it the same way in Lester's cut too. Only difference is now we don't have that stupid Plastic Wrap S being thrown at the villains or Superman suddenly gaining teleportation powers. No big loss to me.

I disagree, those scenes, were fun AND menacing, thats the genius of them. I seem to recall when Zod throws the guy through a wall there is a change in the music that basically tells you that 'playtime is over'.

They threw me right out of the movie when I saw them. Any value that scene had was already there in other places in the movie, and done much better in those scenes. An easy cut.

I'm talking about in terms of the gravitas in closing out a movie. Not whether or not Donner has to use one scene or another.

Replacing the flag on the White House is a FAR, FAR more potent image than Lois Lane ordering a ******-******* pizza.

Keeping Lester's ending would've meant keeping the Amnesia Kiss of Death. Turning back time itself so Lois never found out he was Superman is a hell of a lot better than making her forget it by kissing her to me. Of course, if Donner had been able to go back and finish II, the ending would've been different completely because he wound up using the Earth Spin to Reverse Time Flow ending in the first movie.

I already explain how you are wrong at the top of the post.

Not really.

Totally disagree, they slowly built up the menace AND gave a plausible reason why a camera crew happened to be there - so wrong again on your part.

They were there because of the strange sightings of superpowered beings in the area. The reporter said that when he opened his mouth in front of the camera. You really didn't pay much attention to the film did you?

Yet Donner still kept in the force ray when Zod levitated the shotgun. :whatever:

They had to keep SOME of Lester's crap to make the picture flow. Thankfully they eliminated as much of it as possible, aside from scenes like that. I am not sure Donner planned on having these villains destroy a small town anyway. I believe was planning of having them destroy an actual large city. He just never got to film it, so he had to use the small town stuff Lester created (but kept the best bits from it and removed the crap).

I disagree again. Without those bits it looked like Superman gave up without a fight.

He fought them all over Metropolis. When he realized that he couldn't beat ALL THREE OF THEM with his powers alone, AND that he was putting Metropolis in danger, he went back to the Fotress, knowing Zod and Co would find him there. That doesn't sound like giving up to me.

In fact it paralleled the earlier line "No one who rules so many would kneel so quickly".

He needed the fights in the Fortress to make his ploy believable.

Lester's idiotic Plastic S throwing crap didn't make Superman's ploy any more or less believable. It just lessened the whole scene and made it campier.

If Lester wanted a fight in the Fortress, he should've just had Supes use the powers he actually had on them. But it wouldn't have lived up to the Metropolis Brawl anyway.

Well thats your opinion which I have objectively shown to be wrong.

The bottom line is this. You can say you prefered the Donner cut - thats fair enough. What you can't say is that it was more entertaining, more fun, more action packed or more logical - because it was simply none of those things.

I can sure as hell say it's more logical. It sure flows better for me than Lester's cut. It fits the tone of the first film a lot better, which makes it a better sequel right off the bat.

The action that took place was enough to satisfy me. And it was sure as hell a lot more entertaining for me to watch.

I just wish Donner could've finished filming the whole movie, so Lester and his crap wouldn't have been an issue at all.

[C. Lee]

Hi C.Lee! :)What you fail to recognise is that I ain't joking.
And what you fail to realize is....I know you weren't joking....which is why I made my comment in the first place. If I had a dime for every post I read where someone on here stated that they could make a better movie than this or that established director, writer, actor, whatever.... then I wouldn't have to worry about how I was going to pay for my kids to go to college.

[Fried Gold]

I said the attack on the White House scene (in general) was still in the Lester version, not that it had every individual moment of shot footage included regarding the White House.You were talking about menace earlier on... in my (and everyone else's opinion back here on planet Earth), Zod gunning down a bunch of dudes in the WHITE HOUSE is infinitely more menacing than Ursa arm wrestling some guy in bar.

This is a fact, by the way.

[Upper_Krust]

Andrew - I'll reply to you a bit later. I appreciate the response dude. ;)

Hey C.Lee! :)

And what you fail to realize is....I know you weren't joking....which is why I made my comment in the first place. If I had a dime for every post I read where someone on here stated that they could make a better movie than this or that established director, writer, actor, whatever.... then I wouldn't have to worry about how I was going to pay for my kids to go to college.

The fact of the matter is that Singer made some schoolboy errors when he made Superman Returns. The very idea of a Superman "chick flick" (Singer's own words lets remember) is idiotic right from the start.

As for me doing a better job, as far as I can see that wouldn't be too difficult at all.

Personally I would have had:

#1: Lex and Metallo.

Premise: Lex uses the kryptonian tech (stolen from the Fortress of Solitude) to create Metallo (the first soldier of many). But of course, as with the crystals, Metallo starts to grow exponentially absorbing metal (in the first encounter he could be 6 feet tall, then 60 and finally 600 in the climax).

#2: Lex and Brainiac.

Premise: The kryptonian tech which Lex has been selling is (unknown to him) self-aware (Brainiac). So we get to see what would happen if technology turned against mankind.

#3: Lexiac and Doomsday.

Premise: Brainiac, thought destroyed in #2 had 'interfaced' with Lex, possessing him (Lex now resembles the classic 3-nodes alien Brainiac). We get to see a mental struggle between Lex and Brainiac akin to the Evil Superman vs. Clark Kent battle in Superman III. Brainiac has used Earths satellites to locate and summon the prison cubicle to Earth (for the purpose of defeating Superman). Doomsday lands in the mid west (similar to Supermans original crash landing). The military are the first to go up against the (boiler-suited) Doomsday. Superman goes toe to toe with the beast and we get the classic Death of Superman battle.

#4: Darkseid and Mongul (Apokalips)/Cyborg and Bizarro (Earth)

Premise: Superman's spirit wakes up in Apokalips (ie. Hell). While on Earth an evil 'Superman' (Cyborg) is running rampant (a sort of what if Superman was evil). Lex is called in to deal with Cyborg, he breaks out his Superman clone before its fully developed (resulting in Bizarro). Superman find's that he cannot escape Apokalips and is forced to fight in the arena, here his mentor could be Mongul. Who teaches him to be a better warrior. On Earth Bizarro fights Cyborg, but is ultimately defeated due to his kryptonite weakness.

#5: Cyborg (briefly) and Gog and Parasite.

When we begin the movie Cyborg is actually ruling the Earth. But his reign is ended when he is killed by Gog. In effect Gog becomes the new 'Superman' (saving the world from the evil Superman). The real Superman finally journeys back to Earth using the mother-box. But on the way has been latched onto by a small parasitic microbe.

#6: Darkseid (invades Earth) and Doomsday (released from stasis).

Darkseid invades Earth, after a Metropolis shattering battle he defeats Superman, but Lex releases Doomsday to deal with Darkseid. Doomsday appears to kill Darkseid just as Superman is recovering. He takes Doomsday out of the city to avoid anymore casualties, while there Lex (the president) orders a nuclear strike on them. But this only stuns the two, although it destroys a chunk of the midwest killing the parents of the boy who would become Gog. Superman is then forced to use the motherbox given to him in #4 to place Doomsday at the end of time.

The End.

[Upper_Krust]

Hey F G! :)

You were talking about menace earlier on... in my (and everyone else's opinion back here on planet Earth), Zod gunning down a bunch of dudes in the WHITE HOUSE is infinitely more menacing than Ursa arm wrestling some guy in bar.

This is a fact, by the way.

That was a great snippet, but I still say it is infinitely better to build the menace slowly (which the Donner cut simply doesn't do) than the illogical (and rather ham-fisted) approach of the Donner cut (where the camera crew are already there for no reason whatsoever).

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Andrew! :)

Whatever. The other scene is better because it makes Lois actually work at finding out his secret.

But its the illogical resolution of her 'gun ploy' that I have issues with, not that Lois was working at uncovering the secret (which she also attempts in the Lester version).

If Clark wanted to tell Lois, he probably would have JUST TOLD HER instead of tripping over a rug.

I said he subconsciously wanted to tell her.

If Lester did it that way, it would've been a lot better replacement of what Donner originally planned than what he created.

If you replace something you have to make it better, not illogical.

Ummm. This movie came out in the early 1980s. It was filmed in late 1970s. Back then, there is no way in hell Lois would've married Superman. This was still pre-chrisis Superman, long before John Bryne came in and rebooted him.

Irrelevant. What we are discussing is the feasibility of Superman living with and/or marrying Lois Lane.

I say it is feasible, you say it wasn't before the 90's. :huh:

It is absolutely weak for you to use what happened in a 1990's comic (ten years or so after Supes II) to try and invalidate my point. Absolutely weak. Come on, you can do better than that.

I fail to see what the chronology has to do with it? We are talking about marriage here, not whether Lois will have Superman's child out of wedlock.

Ummmm... if it was obvious to me, I am sure it was obvious to Superman.

He acted without proof.

I don't think you understand how film editing works. Even good scenes get cut when they don't flow with the rest of the movie, and this was a stupid scene that deserved to be cut. It was a British director's take on what a small american town was. It didn't belong with the rest of the movie. It didn't fit the tone of what Donner wanted the movie to be, so he cut it.

I do understand it, and I understand what Donner was trying to do in sidelining some elements. However, his vision in no way makes for a better movie...and thats the bottom line.

They did cause damage there. You just didn't see it because it now happened off screen.

Thus interupting the flow of the movie for the worse.

That works a lot better then those stupid scenes anyway, so I am glad they went with that idea.

I disagree.

We got that aspect of it on the moon, followed by the scene with the cops. That was enough. We didn't need those scenes in that bar at all.

Yes we did, we needed it to better establish the characters of the three krytonians, to slowly build the menace and to explain why a camera crew was there in the first place.

Thats three boxes ticked for the Lester version.

He fell for it the same way in Lester's cut too. Only difference is now we don't have that stupid Plastic Wrap S being thrown at the villains or Superman suddenly gaining teleportation powers. No big loss to me.

In the Lester version Superman puts up a fight so that when he plays the 'switcheroo' its more believable.

They threw me right out of the movie when I saw them. Any value that scene had was already there in other places in the movie, and done much better in those scenes. An easy cut.

Again I strongly disagree. The contrast between such scenes better highlights the menace.

Keeping Lester's ending would've meant keeping the Amnesia Kiss of Death. Turning back time itself so Lois never found out he was Superman is a hell of a lot better than making her forget it by kissing her to me. Of course, if Donner had been able to go back and finish II, the ending would've been different completely because he wound up using the Earth Spin to Reverse Time Flow ending in the first movie.

Well I admit I am not a fan of the 'Super-kiss' but they could have had Lois know Clark was Superman in the third movie. The only thing he had to give up was the notion of giving up his powers. He didn't need to give up Lois at all.

They were there because of the strange sightings of superpowered beings in the area. The reporter said that when he opened his mouth in front of the camera. You really didn't pay much attention to the film did you?

If I didn't pick up on it you can bet your boots the average cinema goer wouldn't have either.

You can also bet they would prefer the Lester version.

They had to keep SOME of Lester's crap to make the picture flow. Thankfully they eliminated as much of it as possible, aside from scenes like that. I am not sure Donner planned on having these villains destroy a small town anyway. I believe was planning of having them destroy an actual large city. He just never got to film it, so he had to use the small town stuff Lester created (but kept the best bits from it and removed the crap).

It made far more sense for them to destroy a town initially then have the fight with Superman in the city - see how you 'build' the menace and up the threat level.

So that would have been another lame idea from Donner.

He fought them all over Metropolis. When he realized that he couldn't beat ALL THREE OF THEM with his powers alone, AND that he was putting Metropolis in danger, he went back to the Fotress, knowing Zod and Co would find him there. That doesn't sound like giving up to me.

In the Donner cut he capitulates as soon as they arrive at the Fortress. There is no way Zod would have fell for that trick so easily.

Lester's idiotic Plastic S throwing crap didn't make Superman's ploy any more or less believable. It just lessened the whole scene and made it campier.

I thought it was cool. You would like to think Superman has some kryptonian defenses in the Fortress of solitude.

One alternative might have been Superman throwing his cape around Non.

If Lester wanted a fight in the Fortress, he should've just had Supes use the powers he actually had on them. But it wouldn't have lived up to the Metropolis Brawl anyway.

Well it was an enclosed space so there was less you could do. However I think the reason for that fight was to better lull Zod into a false sense of security (which Donner doesn't do).

I can sure as hell say it's more logical. It sure flows better for me than Lester's cut. It fits the tone of the first film a lot better, which makes it a better sequel right off the bat.

How the heck can you say it flows better!? :wow:

The action that took place was enough to satisfy me.

Let me guess - you loved Superman Returns...right? :whatever:

And it was sure as hell a lot more entertaining for me to watch.

I fail to see how.

I just wish Donner could've finished filming the whole movie, so Lester and his crap wouldn't have been an issue at all.

I'm glad now he didn't because the direction he took the movie was pants.

[Fried Gold]

You can also bet they would prefer the Lester version.LOL Except that you're the only one who prefers the Lester cut.

[Upper_Krust]

Hi F G! :)

LOL Except that you're the only one who prefers the Lester cut.

Have you even read this thread? There are many more than me who prefer the Lester version.

The Donner cut was an interesting 'What If' but markedly inferior in so much of the changes it makes.

I do like some of the missing scenes and snippets that were added to the Donner cut (Lois falling out the window, Zod with the gun). But with only two exceptions (The Brando material and the buffoonery of the mob vs Kryptonians) I think the elements removed/replaced were far superior.

[Kid_Kaos]

Funny thing is, I like neither cuts entirely.
Lester f'd up the end with the "Superkiss" and some weird scenes where Zod and his crew had like magic powers.
Donner did it right with the beginning and the unmasking of Clark. It's very funny and Kidder just nails Lois in that scene.
What I didn't like was that Donner's version had barely any brutality you would expect from 3 evil Kryptonians. Just think about what perverted things humans can do without any superpowers. I know it's a kid friendly movie, but Lester at least showed some cruelty against humans. That made them a thread. The Donner Cut is far too short in that department. They're suddenly there and they are EVIL. Boohuhoooo! EEEEEEEEVIL!!! :wow: :whatever:

Also, the whole Kal-El vs Jor-El debate is just stupid. Jor-El told him a dozen times that he can NEVER get his powers back, and Kal selfishly ignores it like "Yeah, Yeah, Yeah .... I know that! Now take my powers away, I want to be with that woman!" *stompsfeet*
Then, a few hours later with a car from nowhere, Clark and Lois run into a bar, Clark gets beaten up and sees Zod. So he WALKS back to the FoS and cries for his powers. --> :huh:

Sorry, but the Lester Cut had at least some sort of intelligence, even though it still is just stupid for Supes to give up his powers resp. BEGGING to get rid of them. Lara didn't say too much, she just warned him once that it was a one-way ticket and he accepted. Brief scene which gives not too much away. Later it turns out it was a dumb choice and Kal sees his error.

Jor-El nearly begged Kal not to give up his powers, even pointing out any kind of possible threat in the future, and Kal just ignored him like a little boy wanting his cookies. And then, few hours later, he goes back and cries for help like a 5 year old, realizing he made a dumb choice. Guess what, Jor-El made it crystal f'n clear that THAT could happen and there was NO way back! But of course it's Superman, a crystal appears and suddenly everything is good again. LAME

I know the whole Jor-El stuff makes sense with the whole bible crap in it, but I don't care for that, so Superman was suddenly acting out of character for me. The Donner Cut just was too smart for itself in a few scenes to have such a stupid resolution.

Sorry, but that Donner version of Superman is more a Superidiot to me. That, and the reduced villain scenes really bugged me watching it. Let's not start on that turning back time thing ... LAME

[Fried Gold]

The Donenr Cut just was too smart for itself in a few scenes to have such a stupid resolution.No no, it was too smart for you.

[Fried Gold]

The Donner cut was an interesting 'What If' but markedly inferior in so much of the changes it makes.That's fine. I don't really mind that you prefer a version that has Superman with made-up powers, ignores all that has gone before, cuts some fine dramatic acting from Brando and Reeve, negates the fine work by Geoffrey Unsworth and generally doesn't make a lick of sense thematically.

As for me, I believe that a movie is more than the sum of it's parts and doesn't necessarily need to be narratively cohesive in order to be a great movie. 2001 makes about as much sense as a custard pie in a thunderstorm, but that still does not stop it being a one of the most influential films of the 20th century.

Now, I'm sorry that you feel as though you need to have plot spoon fed to you by means of by-the-numbers direction, and that you can only focus on what is on screen at the time. The rest of us, meanwhile, have rather vivid imaginations, appreciate good direction/editing/lighting, and generally prefer films that makes us think and challenge our perceived notions of filmmaking and storytelling.

Is the Donner cut perfect? No. Absolutely not. Is it better than Made-Up-Powers Man? Yes. Totally, though not necessarily in story and narrative, but rather in filmmaking.

I think the difference between you and I is that you prefer to switch your brain off when you watch a movie, whereas I (and many others) can appreciate the fine art and craftsmanship of cinema.

That's pretty much all I have to say on the matter, because there comes a point where arguing on the internet becomes rather tragic. I'm not gonna budge, and neither are you.

[bunk]

I haven't seen Donner's cut and I don't really plan to. If you have to do something half assed, don't even bother.

[Fried Gold]

If you have to do something half assed, don't even bother.Then why did you post?

[bunk]

That was my message. This is a message board. And thanks to everyone else's messages, my suspicions about the DVD have been confirmed and I no longer have to buy it.

[Fried Gold]

That was my message. This is a message board. And thanks to everyone else's messages, my suspicions about the DVD have been confirmed and I no longer have to buy it.You're so cool.

[Kevin Roegele]

I think many of you miss the point of the Donner cut.

The clue is in the title. Donner. Donner footage. This is not trying to be the best version of Superman II, it's simply trying to show as much Donner footage as possible and the least Lester footage possible. Complete narrative logic and flow is willingly sacrificed for a glimpse at Donner's vision.

[Upper_Krust]

Hey F G! :)

That's fine. I don't really mind that you prefer a version that has Superman with made-up powers, ignores all that has gone before, cuts some fine dramatic acting from Brando and Reeve, negates the fine work by Geoffrey Unsworth and generally doesn't make a lick of sense thematically.

Are you talking about Superman Returns? :oldrazz:

As for me, I believe that a movie is more than the sum of it's parts and doesn't necessarily need to be narratively cohesive in order to be a great movie. 2001 makes about as much sense as a custard pie in a thunderstorm, but that still does not stop it being a one of the most influential films of the 20th century.

I thought it was pretty straightforward.

Now, I'm sorry that you feel as though you need to have plot spoon fed to you by means of by-the-numbers direction, and that you can only focus on what is on screen at the time.

Theres a marked difference between 'by the numbers' and ticking all the right boxes.

The rest of us, meanwhile, have rather vivid imaginations, appreciate good direction/editing/lighting, and generally prefer films that makes us think and challenge our perceived notions of filmmaking and storytelling.

But Donner's cut doesn't do that.

Is the Donner cut perfect? No. Absolutely not. Is it better than Made-Up-Powers Man? Yes. Totally, though not necessarily in story and narrative, but rather in filmmaking.

I'll take Made-Up-Powers-Man over Illogical-Man any day.

I think the difference between you and I is that you prefer to switch your brain off when you watch a movie, whereas I (and many others) can appreciate the fine art and craftsmanship of cinema.

Such 'craft' is fine when used intelligently.

Case in point, Singer's muted use of colour and the slightly softer lens was no doubt used to both establish the darker mood of the piece and evoke something of the Fleischer era Superman.

However, you have to question the logic behind making Superman dull and dreary. He made a Superman movie solely for adults, when it should be for kids and adults. He took the fun out of Superman. You may as well say he stole the life from the movie.

As far as I can see Donner did the same thing with his cut.

That's pretty much all I have to say on the matter, because there comes a point where arguing on the internet becomes rather tragic. I'm not gonna budge, and neither are you.

...and you know what, nothing wrong with that at all.

Just two people having a friendly discussion and sharing their points of view.

[bunk]

You're so cool.


Being broke and having to carefully choose the DVDs I buy makes me cool? AWESOME!! Dude, you just made my day...I thought there was a lot more involved in being cool. Awesome.

[Kevin Roegele]

...and you know what, nothing wrong with that at all.

Just two people having a friendly discussion and sharing their points of view.


HAPPY ENDING.

GROUP HUG, EVERYBODY, GROUP HUG!

Close thread.

[captain_jimbo]

Well I just f**king loved the Donner cut, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, I just wish everyone could have enjoyed it as much as I did. :super:

[Kevin Roegele]

Well I just f**king loved the Donner cut, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, I just wish everyone could have enjoyed it as much as I did. :super:

It's just too fast. That's my problem. The Lester version feels like you've watched an epic. The Donner version just zooms past.

[webs]

Curiosity made me buy the Donner cut.. and without not making a direct comparison to the Lester cut I was suprised at how much I enjoyed it..

[BH/HHH]

I have only 2 complaints:

I too missed the line "General, would you care to step outside" and a Lex Luthor line "you think they'd know how to use a door knob"

but I loved this movie.

[CGHulk]

The things I'd like to change in the Donner Cut are, add in the scene where Lex is arrested by mounties at the end of the film. Remove the scene at the end where a stand in that's supposed to be Margot at the type writer isn't isn't Margot. When Lois notices Clark looks like Superman at the Niagara Falls location shoot, she just shrugs it off, take out that little bit in the scene so it will make more sense, put in rest of the scene up to where it ends where Lois realizes that when Clark isn't around Superman is. If you make these few adjustments the Donner Cut will work perfectly!

[GreenKToo]

I prefer the donner cut.The only scene I miss from lester's is the "general, care to step outside'' scene...

[Eros]

remove the time reversing scene, becasue thats always gonna be stupid donner.

[Bester]

One thing I don't understand is Superman's motivation for turning back time in the second movie.

In the first movie he was driven by his emotions to save the woman he loves. This lead him to turn against his teachings ("You must not interfere with human history").

In the second movie it is driven by *logic* in order to do.....what exactly? Repair damage to a few buildings? Erase Lois's memory, even though he told her that he trusts her to keep his secret?

It makes no sense :huh:

[Bester]

Come to think of it, turning back time the way he did actually *creates* the problem of bringing the 3 evil Krypotians back to life (thereby resurrecting a potential threat that had already been disposed of). They escaped the PZ once, it could happen again...

[KrypJonian]

Donner's Cut was interesting,

I think that's all it was supposed to be

[bunk]

My brother brought it to watch yesterday, nothing better than Superman on Christmas! It was pretty good, I think I like it better than the original. It was weird hearing the same lines, but spoken differently. Like in Lester's: Towards the end Luthor is trying to pretend he helped, and Supes is like "Too late!" all pissed. Donner picked the version where Supes is chuckling about it. Stuff like that. I like how the silly bits where cut out, though it made for a darker movie overall. People complain about SR, but I found Donner's S2 to be much more depressing. The added scenes between Supes and Jor-el were excellent though.

[Lightning54SC]

ok if you guys what they way it should have been done send me both lesters and donners versions all peace it together in profection

[samsnee]

From the very first page...

3a & b. Donner wanted to cut all the slapstick comedy.

Just my opinion of course, but the toilet joke when Lex is in the FoS is more lame and groan inducing than anything in Lester's cut.

As for the "Rock was a bully" discussion, try imagine seeing the scene where Clark beats him up WITHOUT having scene the scene where he, sans powers, gets beat up. Yes, one can infer Rocky is kind of a d*ck, but without that earlier scene, it plays like "Why is Superman beating up on some random dude in a bar? Yeah, that dude seems like a d*ck and prob deserves it, but there are a lot d*cks in this world that I don't see Superman randomly beating the crap out of." The second scene doesn't work without the first, and I think it's difficult for any viewer not to associate payback as part of Superman's motives for going back. It's not just b/c "The guy's a d*ck and needs to be a taught a lesson." So Donner should have just cut that second scene, but I think he left it in because it does give the audience some more humor.

Anyway, I agree with the earlier post that said neither Lester or Donner's cuts are masterpieces. There are good and poor, illogical scenes in both.

[Furious Styles]

I'd rather not debate the finer points of Richard Donner's Superman II, I'm just glad to have had the opportunity to see his vision on screen, than to never have seen it at all.

[SFII]

i too actually liked the Lester version a bit better. but seeing the unseen footage from the Donner cut was quite a treat. i just wish he would've kept a little bit more of the Lester cut in the film.
and the ending when he spins the world backwards again was disappointing. and it doesn't make good sense.

[cryptic name]

like many others, the only thing i really preferred about Lester's Superman II was the "General, would you care to step outside?" line.

[Spider-Fan]

My brother brought it to watch yesterday, nothing better than Superman on Christmas! It was pretty good, I think I like it better than the original. It was weird hearing the same lines, but spoken differently. Like in Lester's: Towards the end Luthor is trying to pretend he helped, and Supes is like "Too late!" all pissed. Donner picked the version where Supes is chuckling about it. Stuff like that. I like how the silly bits where cut out, though it made for a darker movie overall. People complain about SR, but I found Donner's S2 to be much more depressing. The added scenes between Supes and Jor-el were excellent though.

I feel it was more depressing than SR because I actually cared about the characters. I don't mind Superman being depressing, as long as it is done well. The romance between Lois and Superman is done very well in the Donner Cut. That and the Jor-El scenes made this a great movie. In SR, I just didn't care about Superman and Lois was played by someone wrong for the part.

[Visceral]

Lester who?

[Frodo]

i too actually liked the Lester version a bit better. but seeing the unseen footage from the Donner cut was quite a treat. i just wish he would've kept a little bit more of the Lester cut in the film.
and the ending when he spins the world backwards again was disappointing. and it doesn't make good sense.

I gotta agree.

[captain_jimbo]

It's just too fast. That's my problem. The Lester version feels like you've watched an epic. The Donner version just zooms past.

That's so strange I feel the opposite. I feel like with Donner's I've seen an epic, where as with Lester's version I feel more like it's a slight rip off of Donner's material. Although I do love both versions, I love Donner's cut even more. :super:

[captain_jimbo]

i too actually liked the Lester version a bit better. but seeing the unseen footage from the Donner cut was quite a treat. i just wish he would've kept a little bit more of the Lester cut in the film.
and the ending when he spins the world backwards again was disappointing. and it doesn't make good sense.

What everyone has to remember is that the turning back the world wouldn't have been the ending to Superman II, it's only because he either had to use that or the memory kiss in Lester's version, and he wanted to show an alternate version, the great thing about Superman II is that now there are two great versions. :up:

[CGHulk]

Put in Lex being arrested at the end of the film back in the Donner Cut, and make Jor-El's footage with Lex to be fuzzy like in Superman the Movie and the end of the Dooner Cut. The rocket in outerspace shots to be done better, to look like the rocket in Superman the Movie, instead of a silver bullet. The scene at Niagara Falls, remove that moment where Lois shruggs off that she noticed Clark looks like Superman, and also at the end of the sequence where she realizes Clark is not around when Superman is, add that part of the scene back in too. Remove Lois at the typewriter at the end, it's not even Margot Kidder in the scene. Hire Terence Stamp to redubb his dialogue in the Oval Office, "The son of Jo-El?" The idea is to polish up the Donner Cut, so it will look great.

[Kevin Roegele]

What everyone has to remember is that the turning back the world wouldn't have been the ending to Superman II, it's only because he either had to use that or the memory kiss in Lester's version, and he wanted to show an alternate version, the great thing about Superman II is that now there are two great versions. :up:

No, it would have been the ending to Superman II, that's the point, that's why it was shot. That was the original plan. If it wasn't for the troubles whilst shooting the movies in the first place, production on the sequel wouldn't have stopped and the ending to II would not have been added to the first movie.

[dude love]

He should've just gone all out and re-edited both films into the two part version he had envisioned.

[cryptic name]

No, it would have been the ending to Superman II, that's the point, that's why it was shot. That was the original plan. If it wasn't for the troubles whilst shooting the movies in the first place, production on the sequel wouldn't have stopped and the ending to II would not have been added to the first movie.

yeah, but donner and menk say in the commentary that they were planning on coming up with a new ending for 2 after Superman was released. the spinning the world back works better in the first one, and i'm sure they would have come up with something different and cool for their actual Superman 2.

[Kevin Roegele]

yeah, but donner and menk say in the commentary that they were planning on coming up with a new ending for 2 after Superman was released. the spinning the world back works better in the first one, and i'm sure they would have come up with something different and cool for their actual Superman 2.

Sure, but the Donner Cut is Superman II as originally intended. As it should be.

[captain_jimbo]

yeah, but donner and menk say in the commentary that they were planning on coming up with a new ending for 2 after Superman was released. the spinning the world back works better in the first one, and i'm sure they would have come up with something different and cool for their actual Superman 2.

Thank you, that's what I was trying to say. That's why I said it wouldn't have been the ending to Superman II, if Donner had been able to finish it, because he was planning to come up with a new ending!

[Kevin Roegele]

Thank you, that's what I was trying to say. That's why I said it wouldn't have been the ending to Superman II, if Donner had been able to finish it, because he was planning to come up with a new ending!

But it would have been the ending had everything gone to plan. It was the ending planned fromt he start when the whole project was one huge script split into two.

The 'reverse-time' ending was originally planned for Superman II, not the first film.

It was only added to the first film when all the crap with the Salkinds started.

This is Superman II as originally, orginally conceived, as written.

[captain_jimbo]

^ Yeah, so we agree.

[Kevin Roegele]

^ Yeah, so we agree.

Well, let's see....

I'm saying that the proper ending for Superman II is the turning back time scene.

[buggs0268]

Had Donner been able to finish Supes 2, he and Mank would have re-writen the ending and gotten rid of the time reversal thing. They have said it on the DVD. When they moved the Time reversal thing to STM, it was the last thing they shot on the movie, and it was a second shoot, in which they went back to the location as the last thing they shot on the film. They had abandoned any work on S2 by that point. The reason they put the time turning back thing is because the only other option they had was the Kiss of forgetfullness, which Mank said that Clark should never kiss Lois, only Supes should. Since they only had two options, they went with the time turning back one. It wasn't like they could reshoot a new ending. They had a budget to deal with and their lead actor was dead, and if he wasn't, he would have been 30 years older and in a wheelchair. But had they been able to go and finish it after the release of STM, there would have been a different ending. Also, I hated that stupid kiss of forgetfulness. That is as bad as the beams that shoot out of their hands and levitate people, or the Cellophane S.

[Showtime]

I don't know, I wasn't a fan of the Donner Cut as I have said before. I think I was expecting to much, and as you said Buggs, they didn't have all the bullets in the gun to work with.

[buggs0268]

Yeah. They shot 70% of a film. Had to use a different directors footage and test footage, and I think they still would have shot more. Donner said he would have brought back Hackman and Brando for extra stuff, and I think they would have wrote and shot more. This is a patch job and is clearly stated as that is the fact. I mean for all of it's faults, I still think the Donner stuff is still light years ahead of Lester's stuff. I do take issue with the turning back time stuff, but they only had two options, and it was nice to see the other option, even if they would have done something completely different when they went back to work on it.

[griffolyon12]

I think the Donner Cut deceived some people,now hear me out.Rather than it be an alternate way to view Superman II it's more like what the film might of been like if Donner was left on as the director.Because as he has said in an interview(I don't know where so don't ask)that he only shot about 85% of the film and he had to fill some of it in with Lester footage to fill in a few gaps.But the point is Donner didn't film everything needed to make this film 100% so in my opinion it's just a nice what could have been.Although I do believe if Donner could go back and complete this film it would be five times better than Lester's version,but right not it's just a very choppy and clearly unfinished film .

[buggs0268]

Hey everyone! :)

I just got to see the Richard Donner cut of Superman II on Friday night and all I could think was thank heavens this was not the version released because it was rubbish.

Over the past few months the hype has been building up, and people have been singing its praises. But after having seen it, Richard Lester's version blows it out of the water. I was watching it with a group of friends and they were all disappointed.

Okay, so thats just my opinion, so lets get to the details of why.

1. Illogical

1a. Lois Shooting Clark with blanks and then he reveals his identity. Superman could see whether there was a bullet coming at him or not. When he saw there was not he should have just fainted.

1b. What was the point of Superman transforming into a human. He had already slept with Lois, so clearly it was safe to biologically 'love' her.

1c. The Rocky fight at the end. Given that Superman had went back in time. Superman basically beat up Rocky for something he didn't do.

2. Less Action/Excitement

2a. No Kryptonians versus the locals! That scene built up the menace nicely and got them noticed by the media in the first place. Here we just get them talking to the media with no reason for why a camera crew was there.

2b. No fight between Superman and the Kryptonians at the Fortress of Solitude. Okay, so Superman purists will roll their eyes at some of the powers and the plastic 'S', but it was a cool, interesting scene that was alot better than Superman just giving up (which he does in the Donner cut).

3. Less Fun

3a. The scene with the Sheriff and his Deputy encountering the Kryptonians for the first time was cut to ribbons.

3b. The 'bar room brawl' with the Kryptonians in the town was also cut.

4. Less Dramatic

4a. No "General Zod...would you care to step outside" line. Richard Donner cut the best line in the movie. The iconic Superman smack talk. Frankly I was sickened to the pit of my stomach that Donner cut this line.

4b. No replacing the flag on the Whitehouse. Now I am not an American, but even I felt the gravitas of that scene. Again cut by Donner.

5. Devils Advocate...was it all so bad...?

Okay, there were a few good scenes added, but nothing removed (with the possible exception of the Brando scene) was removed for the better.

5a. The Lois falling out the window scene was a nice scene.

5b. The Lois shooting Clark scene had one good line (the one about the price of roses).

5c. I think there were some extra moments at the Whitehouse that were good (such as Zod using the M16).

5d. Lex taking the coffee from Jimmy. Jimmy being mistaken for Superman.

All of the above could have been added to the Lester cut. Its not the additions I am criticising, it is the replacements and scenes from the original that were deleted.

Overall.

To think that Richard Donner will get paid for this is the biggest insult since Bryan Singer cashed a cheque for $50 million dollars for Superman Returns.

Speaking of which, going by the Donner Cut, Superman and Lois never slept together!

The true unsung hero of all this is Richard Lester.
Lester is a hack. A hack. He isn't a hero. Cellophane S's. Laser beams coming out of their fingers. Kiss of forgetfull-ness. Don't get me started on that stupid juicer hurting his hand. Lester is so good, jsut take a look at Superman 3. He didn't have to follow the Donner laid storyline, so that was his alone. He isn't the unsung hero. He is a hack. Mid-western kids that talk like a British kid. Come on. Lester is a hack. Donner's version is far superior. And he only filmed 70 percent of it. If Donner had been able to finish 2 back then, there would not have been a turning back time. But even with that, it is step far superior to Lester's piece of junk. Lester turned NON into an idiot kid. He also tamed Zod. Stupid. Lester didn't know the character, and his parts are just terrible.

And the scenes between Jor-El and Reeve are far superior to anything in Lester's version. Also, Hackman's extra scenes are far better, and Kidder is so much more livlier and enjoyable and you actually get that they love each other.

[Super Kal]

personally, I'd rather have Lester's RIC over Donner's Superman II...

[newmexneon]

Superman 4 was better than this piece of garbage. I'm actually glad Donner was fired. He would have killed the franchise right then and there. Turning time back AGAIN!!! Worst idea ever.

[cryptic name]

Superman 4 was better than this piece of garbage. I'm actually glad Donner was fired. He would have killed the franchise right then and there. Turning time back AGAIN!!! Worst idea ever.

have you been reading any of the other posts?

[El Payaso]

Superman 4 was better than this piece of garbage. I'm actually glad Donner was fired. He would have killed the franchise right then and there. Turning time back AGAIN!!! Worst idea ever.

Man, collect some information before showing us you don't know what you're talking about.

[Super Kal]

Superman 4 was better than this piece of garbage. I'm actually glad Donner was fired. He would have killed the franchise right then and there. Turning time back AGAIN!!! Worst idea ever.
originally, he wouldn't of used reversing time again... that was supposed to be the end of SII... the original ending of STM did not have Superman reversing time.

[El Payaso]

Btw, I was about to spend a lot of money buying the Donner Cut today and now I read all this.

[CGHulk]

Forget what they all said and buy the Donner Cut!

[Kevin Roegele]

Man, collect some information before showing us you don't know what you're talking about.

LOL

[Smegger56]

For me, the Donner cut is a more enjoyable experience than the Laster version, just because of the more dramatic elements that where lacking in Lesters.

I'll just say this, the film we saw was only about, what, 70% of Donner footage? So plot problems may arise. Donner himself has said that if he had the chance to finish Superman II, he would have reshot a lot of scenes, the ending being the main thing to redo.

I really wish we got to see the complete Donner film. In everyaspect, i would've been an amazing film.

[Kevin Roegele]

For me, the Donner cut is a more enjoyable experience than the Laster version, just because of the more dramatic elements that where lacking in Lesters.

I'll just say this, the film we saw was only about, what, 70% of Donner footage? So plot problems may arise. Donner himself has said that if he had the chance to finish Superman II, he would have reshot a lot of scenes, the ending being the main thing to redo.

I really wish we got to see the complete Donner film. In everyaspect, i would've been an amazing film.

Yeah, but we're not judging what Donner intended, we're judging the DVD, "Superman II - The Richard Donner Cut." We EXCEPT that many problems are caused by the fact he didn't shoot everything he wanted, but GIVEN THAT, what is your opinion on the actual film, not the intended one?

[Smegger56]

Yeah, but we're not judging what Donner intended, we're judging the DVD, "Superman II - The Richard Donner Cut." We EXCEPT that many problems are caused by the fact he didn't shoot everything he wanted, but GIVEN THAT, what is your opinion on the actual film, not the intended one?

I think i said it in my first paragraph. Read it.

But i'll say it again. I found it more enjouyable than the Lester version. It was more dramatic, and darker. It also had the right amounts of hunour in it.

[Dino Pollard]

There are problems in the Donner cut, because he wasn't able to film everything he wanted. This isn't a definitive director's cut, because as talented as Donner is, he can't make something out of nothing. He couldn't go back and reshoot a different ending, it's been almost thirty years since he originally filmed this movie.

But even given the problems, it's still far, far, far superior to the Lester version, which is only entertaining in a strictly B-movie, so-bad-it's-good camp way. Kind of like the Adam West Batman movie. I never got any sense of menace from the Phantom Zone villains in the Lester version. They were jokes. I had no sympathy for the people in that hick town they were terrorizing, because they were such obvious charicatures. It was pathetic.

Never have I understood why so many people praise Lester's version, even some going so far as to say it's better than Superman: The Movie. Lester's version was nothing but crap.

What we have here is the best Donner could compile. Yes, turning back time is not a satisfactory ending, and Donner himself admits that. But this is what we had to work with.

And Upper_Krust, it doesn't matter if Superman and Lois are married in the comics -- that's the comics. Nobody ever said it was outside the realm of possibility. But it's Donner's interpretation that Superman can't have his cake and eat it, too. Just like it's Donner's interpretation that Clark should never kiss Lois, which is why he didn't use that ending. To say that his interpretation is wrong just because hack comic writers did something different almost twenty years later is retarded.

Oh, and you could make a better Superman movie? Please. Those snippets you posted of your "epic masterpiece" earlier in this thread had me groaning. It was the typical fanboy approach to how comic book movies should be made. Once you've directed a film that's on par of the quality of The Omen or The Usual Suspects, then you can go around claiming that you're a more capable filmmaker than Donner and Singer. Because going by your ideas so far, I'd be surprised if you were up to Uwe Boll's quality.

[CGHulk]

Why is it that Superman can't be with Lois and still have his powers, why did Jor-El say he had to live as one of them?

[El Payaso]

He's Brando. He just have the wildest ideas and you just have to live with them.

[silentflute]

The definitive version of Superman II will never happen, because as a lot of folks have already pointed out-Donner was not ableto complete his vision for the film.

The next best thing to that is a combination of Lester and donner's version.Much as I'm not a fan of the "super kiss' at the end of Lester's version, it did hoild a certain emotional resonance, and should be left in.Same thing with Lois discovering Clark's identity.Lester's version is a lot more believable and better executed.Additionally,the flag scene at the whitehouse in the finale and "general, would you care to step outside?" and the "we used to play this game in high school, I never was very good at it" fight scene at the fortress.

My cut of Superman II would feature all the footage of the Donner cut, but also include those above Lester scenes.

Also,inexpicably, a real good deleted scene was left out of the Donner cut- the guy that bumps in to Clark and tells him to watch were he's going at the elevator.Weird.:huh:

[El Payaso]

I agree, the definitive SII will never happen.

the "we used to play this game in high school, I never was very good at it" fight scene at the fortress.

Just to know, what's exactly good about that?

[silentflute]

I agree, the definitive SII will never happen.



Just to know, what's exactly good about that?


I dunno, I thought it was very cool, especially his delivery of the line.The "game" was a nice added touch.

I could have done without the cellophane "S", but you can't win em all I guess.

[CGHulk]

He's Brando. He just have the wildest ideas and you just have to live with them.
No seriously!

[Superman]

I loved the Donner Cut. Was it perfect? No, But it was alot of fun which is what a movie should be. As I watched it I felt like I was 10 years old again watching a whole new Chris Reeve Superman movie. :up:

[Doctor Baywatch]

That "Donner cut" was awful. I expected better.

[M.O.Steel]

Superman 2 the original was my favorite comic book movie of all time. So when i heard about the donner's cut, I was excited beyond belief. Finally the ultimate movie....getting even better. I and one of those that liked donner's cut, but ultimately, i think i would take lester if i only had one choice (i have both).

--Destroying the fortress?? why?
--keeping zods and goons in jail with the cops coming to the fortress??
--i did like the shooting clark scene better than him tripping over the bear head and putting his hand in the fire. But i also liked lois jumping out of the window and lois jumping into the water. So keep all three
--the last fight scene from the original was awesome (minus the plastic s)
--"care to step outside"...should have stayed
--many of the interactions of zod with locals was cool too and should have stayed.

[Dragonyeuw]

I just purchased the bluray of this and watched it the other day.My feelings on it are mixed.Some pros:

1)Any scene with Marlon Brando owned.Thematically,it tied into Superman:The movie much better than having Superman interact with his mother in the Lester version.I understand the politics surrounding Brando not being in II,but looking at this Donner cut,there should be no debate that Brando's scenes are far more powerful and appropriate in line with the Jor-el-Ka-lel relationship established in the first movie.

2) Showing how Ka-lel got his powers back. Since it was never explained in the original II,it's nice to see here.

3) The opening scene of Lois jumping out the window.I don't mind the jumping into Niagara Falls scene,but this one thematically serves the same purpose.

4) Some completely unnecessary scenes were cut,mainly the 3 villians in the bar.Utterly pointless.

5)Superman sleeping with Lois BEFORE changing makes more sense continuity wise as far as him having a superhuman son in Returns.If you accept Lester's version that Supes and Lois have sex(and presumably impregnates her at that point) AFTER Supes has been depowered,then they should have produced a perfectly normal human child.

6) The redone opening credits scene,more in line with the original.I liked that John Williams' version of the main theme was reused,as opposed to the Lester cut opening main theme which sounded like it was played by an elementary school band.

Some cons:

1) The first,and most obvious,the time reversal scene completely duplicated from the first movie.Not only is reusing it cheap, but it creates too many loopholes.First,if you accept that Superman 3 and 4 don't exist and that Superman Returns continues from II,then Lois' pregnancy should have been undone,and there should be no child in Returns. Lester's version with the super kiss sucks too,but at least Lois technically would still become pregnant.Of course,that would also mean that she would have no memory of who impregnated her,which than means she shouldn't know that Supes is the father in Superman Returns,yet it seems that she does.Loopholes,loopholes.

And of course, the ass-kicking he received from Rocky technically never happened,yet he still goes back at the end to confront him.Yeah thematically,the bully always needs to get his in the end,but it is still a loophole,and it of course makes it look like Superman just wanted revenge,although that's always been there and it cheapens him.Superman is above silly things like vengeance.

2) The removal of 'General,would you care to step outside?' Loved that line,it is badass through and through.Some of Lester's footage was left in this cut,and that is something I would have left in.The 'freedom' of the press line' don't touch it.

3)The removal of the fight scene in the fortress. It greatly shortens the fight between Superman and the villains.I know people have issues with the atypical powers displayed(plastic S,multiple Supermans,etc),but I always accepted it as Superman,because of him being in the fortress,having access to powers and abilities he wouldn't have outside the fortress.Abilities that he would need to even the score a bit since he was obviously outmanned(and outwomaned) but 3 individuals with his powers.There's no way Superman,through force,would be able to win and by going to the fortress,it evened the odds a bit since he was able to do things that the 3 villains obviously weren't aware of.I always figured that was the point of Supes flying off from the city,as well as to stop any further damage and harm to the people.

4)In Lester's cut,Superman shows up 5 minutes into the movie to attend to the crisis in Paris.Now,I understand that the point of that scene was so that Superman accidently frees the villains by throwing the H bomb into space.In Donner's version,the villians are freed from the exploding rocket that Supes send into space from Superman:the movie.So the paris scene has no point in Donner's cut,but it also means that Superman doesn't show up till like 45 minutes into the movie when he saves the little boy at Niagara falls.Wayyyy too long for him to make his 'first' appreance as Supes.

5) I was personally distracted by the obviously cheap and fake looking effects,especially the outer space ones.Also,the scene in the hotel room where Lois discover's Clark's secret,Clark's hair changing was jarring.Yeah I know it was 2 screen tests woven together ,but nevertheless I found it distracting.It's also interesting to note that Margot Kidder looked different in the Lester scenes and Donner scenes.She was,of course, younger in the Donner scenes,and in my opinion a good deal cuter.Looking at the 4 movies,she didn't age particularly well.

[C. Lee]

And of course, the ass-kicking he received from Rocky technically never happened,yet he still goes back at the end to confront him.Yeah thematically,the bully always needs to get his in the end,but it is still a loophole,and it of course makes it look like Superman just wanted revenge,although that's always been there and it cheapens him.Superman is above silly things like vengeance.

I didn't take it as Supes wanting revenge....more as he knows there is amajor jerk and menace to society out there that needs a dressing down.

[Dragonyeuw]

I didn't take it as Supes wanting revenge....more as he knows there is amajor jerk and menace to society out there that needs a dressing down.

Perhaps,but there's lots of jerks running around society.Supes took it upon himself to personally deal with this particular jerk because this jerk kicked his ass when he was human.So,it's more retribution for the audience to see Supes get even,but it's abit out of character.That's scene's purpose is not for Supes to come up in the end and get his revenge,it's to show how weak and defenseless he had become as the world is facing a great threat(3 villians).I repeat again that Superman is beyond vengeance,especially at the expense of a regular human being,******* or not.He's supposed to be a being of pure good and honor,things like revenge,vengeance,jealousy,etc are human traits.Even though Superman was raised among humans he is supposed to be wholesome and good.

[C. Lee]

Perhaps,but there's lots of jerks running around society.Supes took it upon himself to personally deal with this particular jerk because this jerk kicked his ass when he was human.So,it's more retribution for the audience to see Supes get even,but it's abit out of character.That's scene's purpose is not for Supes to come up in the end and get his revenge,it's to show how weak and defenseless he had become as the world is facing a great threat(3 villians).I repeat again that Superman is beyond vengeance,especially at the expense of a regular human being,******* or not.He's supposed to be a being of pure good and honor,things like revenge,vengeance,jealousy,etc are human traits.Even though Superman was raised among humans he is supposed to be wholesome and good.

Yes...there are a lot of jerks out there in the world...but Supes can't do anything about them until he learns of them. Here was a guy who had been practicly terrorizing a bunch of people for lord knows how long, and thought nothing of attacking people he determined were weaker than himself. Superman wouldnever have crossed his path in his normal day...but he met him as Clark and found out that this jerk was a menace to the people around him.

[zerohour films]

I just purchased the bluray of this and watched it the other day.My feelings on it are mixed.Some pros:

1)Any scene with Marlon Brando owned.Thematically,it tied into Superman:The movie much better than having Superman interact with his mother in the Lester version.I understand the politics surrounding Brando not being in II,but looking at this Donner cut,there should be no debate that Brando's scenes are far more powerful and appropriate in line with the Jor-el-Ka-lel relationship established in the first movie.

Agreed, the Brando scenes were much more powerful and keeping with the first movie's spirit. I liked Clark interacting with his mother in Lester's version, but this with Brando is how it always should have been.


2) Showing how Ka-lel got his powers back. Since it was never explained in the original II,it's nice to see here.

Again liked much better and also the fact that when he became human the suit didn't just disappear in this version. He was already in his civies--oh man and Lois standing there in his Super shirt how hot was that!


3) The opening scene of Lois jumping out the window.I don't mind the jumping into Niagara Falls scene,but this one thematically serves the same purpose.

I enjoyed this scene much more than the NF scene. And we finally got to see CR use his superspeed.


4) Some completely unnecessary scenes were cut,mainly the 3 villians in the bar.Utterly pointless.

I for one am glad they cut as much campy stuff with the 3 villians as they did including the bar room scene.


5)Superman sleeping with Lois BEFORE changing makes more sense continuity wise as far as him having a superhuman son in Returns.If you accept Lester's version that Supes and Lois have sex(and presumably impregnates her at that point) AFTER Supes has been depowered,then they should have produced a perfectly normal human child.

I have given up on making sense of how SR fits into the older movies.


6) The redone opening credits scene,more in line with the original.I liked that John Williams' version of the main theme was reused,as opposed to the Lester cut opening main theme which sounded like it was played by an elementary school band.

Really liked the opening credits with the new SII design. Didn't care for how they edited the scenes from the original movie though to recap and explain Zod & co's escape. Something was just off about those cuts.


Some cons:

1) The first,and most obvious,the time reversal scene completely duplicated from the first movie.Not only is reusing it cheap, but it creates too many loopholes.First,if you accept that Superman 3 and 4 don't exist and that Superman Returns continues from II,then Lois' pregnancy should have been undone,and there should be no child in Returns. Lester's version with the super kiss sucks too,but at least Lois technically would still become pregnant.Of course,that would also mean that she would have no memory of who impregnated her,which than means she shouldn't know that Supes is the father in Superman Returns,yet it seems that she does.Loopholes,loopholes.

Again see above response regarding SR in this continuity, but do agree that reusing the time travel doesn't work for me and I think screws alot of things up story wise. But I believe that originally Donner said it was supposed to be in this movie and not the first, so if they could have redone both then it would work better. I will refrain from commenting on the "super-kiss"...*shivers*


And of course, the ass-kicking he received from Rocky technically never happened,yet he still goes back at the end to confront him.Yeah thematically,the bully always needs to get his in the end,but it is still a loophole,and it of course makes it look like Superman just wanted revenge,although that's always been there and it cheapens him.Superman is above silly things like vengeance.

Again makes no sense to go back and beat him up they way it's presented. Now if they had been able to reshoot and have Clark going by there and witnessing Rocky being a dick again to people and taking care of him that would have been better. But for a random stranger to come in and knock the guy around (especially when it's really Superman). But I chalk this up to the fact that we are merely watching an incomplete work..but the scene shouldn't have been included given the time travel resolution.


2) The removal of 'General,would you care to step outside?' Loved that line,it is badass through and through.Some of Lester's footage was left in this cut,and that is something I would have left in.The 'freedom' of the press line' don't touch it.

Yes the Lester line was much better and wish they had kept it in.


3)The removal of the fight scene in the fortress. It greatly shortens the fight between Superman and the villains.I know people have issues with the atypical powers displayed(plastic S,multiple Supermans,etc),but I always accepted it as Superman,because of him being in the fortress,having access to powers and abilities he wouldn't have outside the fortress.Abilities that he would need to even the score a bit since he was obviously outmanned(and outwomaned) but 3 individuals with his powers.There's no way Superman,through force,would be able to win and by going to the fortress,it evened the odds a bit since he was able to do things that the 3 villains obviously weren't aware of.I always figured that was the point of Supes flying off from the city,as well as to stop any further damage and harm to the people.

It is a fun scene, but wish it was explained as more a fortress thing and not a unknown Superman power thing...In the Lester version he did mention that he played that game as a kid so I guess that does kind of explain that it is fortress related--since on Krypton he would have been powerless.


4)In Lester's cut,Superman shows up 5 minutes into the movie to attend to the crisis in Paris.Now,I understand that the point of that scene was so that Superman accidently frees the villains by throwing the H bomb into space.In Donner's version,the villians are freed from the exploding rocket that Supes send into space from Superman:the movie.So the paris scene has no point in Donner's cut,but it also means that Superman doesn't show up till like 45 minutes into the movie when he saves the little boy at Niagara falls.Wayyyy too long for him to make his 'first' appreance as Supes.

Naturally with a sequel you want to see the hero as early as possible (since you already have sat through a long origin film to build him up). But this actually didn't bother me in the Donner cut.


5) I was personally distracted by the obviously cheap and fake looking effects,especially the outer space ones.Also,the scene in the hotel room where Lois discover's Clark's secret,Clark's hair changing was jarring.Yeah I know it was 2 screen tests woven together ,but nevertheless I found it distracting.It's also interesting to note that Margot Kidder looked different in the Lester scenes and Donner scenes.She was,of course, younger in the Donner scenes,and in my opinion a good deal cuter.Looking at the 4 movies,she didn't age particularly well.


I felt the new effects added blended with the original effects of the period very well. (even liked that remark in the documentary by Donner about the effects and he was told they did have a budget and were trying to make it match).

The screen tests are a little distracting, but I guess you just have to keep in my mind that this is technically just a work in progress or a look at what could have been and let it go. Didn't take away from my overall enjoyment of the film.

And yes in the Donner scenes Margot Kidder was so much better looking. That is one thing that has always bothered me about the sequels. In the first film I thought she was very attractive but the rest she looked and even talked so different. I guess it's kinda like Uma Thurman, she is always so hot in Tarantino's movies, but in a lot of her others she doesn't look quite the same. Donner just knew how to shoot her I guess.


One thing I will add that I didn't see you mention that is one of my biggest gripes of this cut---THE D-MN TOILET FLUSH!!??!! I mean WTF was that garbage?! I know it's probably nit pickey and ridiculous for me to say, but come on there are some things you just don't want to think about. I am sure Supes has a bathroom in there but do we want to discuss or make jokes of it. Really wish that had been left out.

Also the destruction of the FOS at the end. I wish that could have been explained a little better and what happened to Luthor and the Kryptonians (maybe include the Arctic Police scene no matter how cheesy)..but again this is an incomplete version.

[Kevin Roegele]

Might I suggest to all of you who haven't seen it that the best version of Superman II is the Restored Intrenational Cut? It combines the best of both versions, plus some great stuff that is in neither.

[Superman2007]

How does the RIC end?

memory kiss?

[zerohour films]

Below is a link to a really good review breaking down the RIC. Definitely worth reading if you are interested in this version.

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/movies/movies.php?topic=sup2-RIC-review


To answer your question, neither the turning back time or memory wipe kiss were used. It was left with the balcony scene between Lois and Superman talking about how they cannot be together.

[Superman2007]

Below is a link to a really good review breaking down the RIC. Definitely worth reading if you are interested in this version.

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/movies/movies.php?topic=sup2-RIC-review


To answer your question, neither the turning back time or memory wipe kiss were used. It was left with the balcony scene between Lois and Superman talking about how they cannot be together.
According to that review, it says that the memory wipe kiss was used like in the theatrical.

[zerohour films]

According to that review, it says that the memory wipe kiss was used like in the theatrical.


Thanks, went back and saw the section I had missed. Oh well I guess there is just no way of escaping the "kiss".

My mistake, that's what I get for skimming the page too fast.:yay:

[Superman2007]

Thanks, went back and saw the section I had missed. Oh well I guess there is just no way of escaping the "kiss".

My mistake, that's what I get for skimming the page too fast.:yay:

That's no problem.... I do, however, think Superman 2 should end without the mind-rape kiss or turning back time again. I think the best way to go would be Superman and Lois just realizing they can't be together and making some sort of peace with that. It worked for the 1st Spider-man film.

[zerohour films]

That's no problem.... I do, however, think Superman 2 should end without the mind-rape kiss or turning back time again. I think the best way to go would be Superman and Lois just realizing they can't be together and making some sort of peace with that. It worked for the 1st Spider-man film.


Yeah, it really gives the goodbye on the balcony scene alot of impact when you know Superman is giving up on his own needs for the worlds.

BTW-- "mind-rape kiss" that is priceless.:applaud

[SuperDaniel]

I though the Donner Cut was a poor excuse of a movie. I hated the new scenes with Marlon Brandon and Chris Reeve. I thought they were lame and badly acted. Lois with a Superman shirt? C`mon. Plus it had a very bad amateurish editing and the Turning back time ending ruined what was already a ****ty movie.

Lester`s was better film, IMO.

[newmexneon]

This movie was garbage and should never have been done. The ending was ridiculous.

[Kevin Roegele]

Superman II cuts from worst to best

4. Lester version
3. Donner version
2. RIC cut
1. The idealised version in my head that I always imagined Donner's original cut was going to be

[zerohour films]

I though the Donner Cut was a poor excuse of a movie. I hated the new scenes with Marlon Brandon and Chris Reeve. I thought they were lame and badly acted. Lois with a Superman shirt? C`mon. Plus it had a very bad amateurish editing and the Turning back time ending ruined what was already a ****ty movie.

Lester`s was better film, IMO.


I admit the Donner cut wasn't as polished and put together as I would've liked, but come on I think the below speaks for itself :woot::

Wy-vRuK2KzY

[Angeloz]

Does the video have Superman punching someone? 'Cos I thought people would like it for that at least. ;) :D

I'm glad I got to see the "new" footage. Although I wish they'd release a RIC type version (with the concorde and the other footage that was on TV in the eighties).

Angeloz

[M.O.Steel]

I just purchased the bluray of this and watched it the other day.My feelings on it are mixed.Some pros:

1)Any scene with Marlon Brando owned.Thematically,it tied into Superman:The movie much better than having Superman interact with his mother in the Lester version.I understand the politics surrounding Brando not being in II,but looking at this Donner cut,there should be no debate that Brando's scenes are far more powerful and appropriate in line with the Jor-el-Ka-lel relationship established in the first movie.

100% agreed.

2) Showing how Ka-lel got his powers back. Since it was never explained in the original II,it's nice to see here.

while i loved the explanation they gave, i kinda liked the fact that we didn't know what really happened, kinda gives it a mysterious feel.

3) The opening scene of Lois jumping out the window.I don't mind the jumping into Niagara Falls scene,but this one thematically serves the same purpose.

you could have kept both. i liked him using his powers to do everyday stuff. but either one worked.

4) Some completely unnecessary scenes were cut,mainly the 3 villians in the bar.Utterly pointless.

i liked those scenes cause it showed them learning how to use their powers. it's like getting a new toy for christmas when you were five.

5)Superman sleeping with Lois BEFORE changing makes more sense continuity wise as far as him having a superhuman son in Returns.If you accept Lester's version that Supes and Lois have sex(and presumably impregnates her at that point) AFTER Supes has been depowered,then they should have produced a perfectly normal human child.

This kinda bothered me because if he could sleep with her when he had the power, why the need to get depowered? sleeping with her after getting depowered was so much more dramatic, because he gave up being the most powerful being in the world for love. and i thought that was the point of him giving up his power.

6) The redone opening credits scene,more in line with the original.I liked that John Williams' version of the main theme was reused,as opposed to the Lester cut opening main theme which sounded like it was played by an elementary school band.

agreed.

Some cons:

1) The first,and most obvious,the time reversal scene completely duplicated from the first movie.Not only is reusing it cheap, but it creates too many loopholes.First,if you accept that Superman 3 and 4 don't exist and that Superman Returns continues from II,then Lois' pregnancy should have been undone,and there should be no child in Returns. Lester's version with the super kiss sucks too,but at least Lois technically would still become pregnant.Of course,that would also mean that she would have no memory of who impregnated her,which than means she shouldn't know that Supes is the father in Superman Returns,yet it seems that she does.Loopholes,loopholes.

And of course, the ass-kicking he received from Rocky technically never happened,yet he still goes back at the end to confront him.Yeah thematically,the bully always needs to get his in the end,but it is still a loophole,and it of course makes it look like Superman just wanted revenge,although that's always been there and it cheapens him.Superman is above silly things like vengeance.

from what i knew, Supes I and II was supposed to be one big movie, and the ending of both movies would be him going back in time. so it was not supposed to be used twice, only once at the end of part 2. yea none of that stuff you said would make sense, because each he reveresed the world, he would have to recatch the missles. it's not as good of a solution as he might think. i liked the payback scene. he has to have fun sometimes. can't be this good tooshoo all the time.

2) The removal of 'General,would you care to step outside?' Loved that line,it is badass through and through.Some of Lester's footage was left in this cut,and that is something I would have left in.The 'freedom' of the press line' don't touch it.

agreed. i loved that line, and wish it stayed.

3)The removal of the fight scene in the fortress. It greatly shortens the fight between Superman and the villains.I know people have issues with the atypical powers displayed(plastic S,multiple Supermans,etc),but I always accepted it as Superman,because of him being in the fortress,having access to powers and abilities he wouldn't have outside the fortress.Abilities that he would need to even the score a bit since he was obviously outmanned(and outwomaned) but 3 individuals with his powers.There's no way Superman,through force,would be able to win and by going to the fortress,it evened the odds a bit since he was able to do things that the 3 villains obviously weren't aware of.I always figured that was the point of Supes flying off from the city,as well as to stop any further damage and harm to the people.

one of the few that completely agrees with you here. the suit can be a special one the fortress created. and many supermans could be a tricked played by the fortress again.

4)In Lester's cut,Superman shows up 5 minutes into the movie to attend to the crisis in Paris.Now,I understand that the point of that scene was so that Superman accidently frees the villains by throwing the H bomb into space.In Donner's version,the villians are freed from the exploding rocket that Supes send into space from Superman:the movie.So the paris scene has no point in Donner's cut,but it also means that Superman doesn't show up till like 45 minutes into the movie when he saves the little boy at Niagara falls.Wayyyy too long for him to make his 'first' appreance as Supes.

i liked this better also. the paris scene was awesome.

5) I was personally distracted by the obviously cheap and fake looking effects,especially the outer space ones.Also,the scene in the hotel room where Lois discover's Clark's secret,Clark's hair changing was jarring.Yeah I know it was 2 screen tests woven together ,but nevertheless I found it distracting.It's also interesting to note that Margot Kidder looked different in the Lester scenes and Donner scenes.She was,of course, younger in the Donner scenes,and in my opinion a good deal cuter.Looking at the 4 movies,she didn't age particularly well.

yeah true, but i wrote this off since i knew what they had to do to make the movie work coherently in the first place, so i can understand there being a lot of mistakes.

nice review btw. welcome to the hype.

[turtlefocker]

http://fanedit.org/wpTF/?p=22

http://www.fanedit.org/true_fanedits/adm_superman2_hybrid/3D_ADM_S2.jpg

Cuts removed/added/extended:

* Some of the specifics of this edit:

1. Alternate version of “Planet Krypton” cue by John Williams opens the film.
2. Non kills the guard, Zod Breaks the crystal and the rings come down. Cut to:
3. Brando asking the council to pronounce judgment.
4. As Phantom Zone speeds away, Krypton Explodes and Alexander Salkind credit speeds out of this. Credits are from Donner Cut.
5. Zoom into earth cuts to the tail-fire of the XK-101 Rocket with Supes chasing it.
6. Lots of bad CGI removed. Rocket Explodes, shattering Phantom Zone from Lester Cut but with “FREE!” mixed in. Fade out as Villains fly to the moon.
7. Fade in on Metropolis Street vendor, then cut to Perry reading the paper.
8. Lois Jumps. Bad eye-beam shots removed. Awning was always open.
9. Extended Prison sequence
10. Moon, with “curl” discussion back at Mission Control. Hairdryer line cut.
11. Donner’s getaway.
12. Tour of the honeymoon suite.
13. Heading North
14. Falls rescue is a hybrid of the two cuts, with Lois noticing Clark’s absence reinstated.
15. Donner’s version of Lex in the fortress
16. Pink Bear scene, trimmed down.
17. Heading South
18. Non picks up the snake, but only ponders it.
19. Superman takes Lois to the fortress, picks up flowers and dinner.
20. Ursa arm wrestles.
21. Dinner. No sex with Lois while super-powered. No Kryptonite condoms in this story.
22. Brando depowers Superman. Nookie afterward.
23. Donner cut for a long long time, until …
24. “Care to step outside?”
25. Donner cut Metropolis battle and Fortress
26. Arctic Police, Smallville line removed (with a fantastic musical edit behind this whole scene)
27. Fortress NOT destroyed. Cut straight to the kiss.
28. Tearful farewell on terrace
29. Memory Kiss
30. Elevator Bully
31. Diner Bully
32. Flag Flying High, end credits.


As far as I’m concerned, this is the definitive version of Superman II. I think all fans should at least give it a look.