The man who laughs: The Joker thread

[donk70]

Okay, I can understand that. How did you feel about the MOTP Joker? He was a bit darker in that. But I can see where you're coming from, I don't want my Joker to be just like the TAS Joker either, I actually hoping he's more like TKJ, because that's one of my personal favorite Joker stories.



I definatley agree with you on Oldman, I thought he was a perfect Gordon.
It's been so long since I've seen MOTP that I can't remember the way the Joker was portrayed.

[Klattimus_Darby]

Honestly, even though I'm super hyped- (ha ha ha I didn't even realize that pun until I wrote it...) -super hyped about this movie coming up, and do indeed think it will be great, I also have strong moments of longing for a verbatim interpretation of the Joker. I absolutely understand why so many fans are saying to themselves, "is it too much to ask to simply bring to life what is already there, what everyone already fell in love with without putting your own spin on the thing?!" Nice and easy, right? Well, I basically agree with the elseworlds perspective of things, and I do trust, even like, the direction that Nolan is going... but I do have my moments of remorse...

[Crook]

It's been so long since I've seen MOTP that I can't remember the way the Joker was portrayed.
Have you seen ROTJ? Joker was at his most evil there imo, in the flashback to his "last" confrontation with Batman and co.

[AndrewGilkison]

You might wanna read ahead before you post something.

See above, k thanks haveanicenight

I was typing that post just before you finished posting yours, so obviously I couldn't see it. It happens sometimes. :o

[Infinity9999x]

It's been so long since I've seen MOTP that I can't remember the way the Joker was portrayed.

I'd rent it again, you might be surprised, it's not too bad. I don't think it's quite as good as some think, but its worth renting.

Basically, the Joker is the way he is in the TAS but with more menace because he actually kills people this time around.

[Klattimus_Darby]

You know, it's been a long time since I've seen MOTP. I'm going to go out and buy it soon.

And Oldman is absolutely the one thing that NO ONE could b*#% about. Perfect.

[Infinity9999x]

Have you seen ROTJ? Joker was at his most evil there imo, in the flashback to his "last" confrontation with Batman and co.

Definatley, what he did to Robin in that was sick, but it was definatley something Joker would do.

[PretentiousMan]

The problem with the BTAS Joker is how poorly he was treated at times. Look at Beware the Creeper. NOBODY should out-Joker the Joker. Look at Make Em Laugh. Poor guy had his pants around his ankles. Look at Jokers Favor. The Joker should NEVER beg for Batman's help.

He was a great character, but I see some wasted potential here and there.

[Cowleen]

Wow, I feel really behind in the conversation. I'm terrible at anagrams. I know from context what BTAS stands for. Im assuming Return Of The Joker, but what about MOTP. Also, where in the world can I find the comics/graphic novels to catch up on? Yes, that far behind.

[Infinity9999x]

Wow, I feel really behind in the conversation. I'm terrible at anagrams. I know from context what BTAS stands for. Im assuming Return Of The Joker, but what about MOTP. Also, where in the world can I find the comics/graphic novels to catch up on? Yes, that far behind.

Mask of the Phantasm, don't worry I didn't know what MOTP stood for for a while either.

[Klattimus_Darby]

Mask of the Phantasm: MOTP

[Crook]

Wow, I feel really behind in the conversation. I'm terrible at anagrams. I know from context what BTAS stands for. Im assuming Return Of The Joker, but what about MOTP.
Mask of the Phantasm.

Also, where in the world can I find the comics/graphic novels to catch up on? Yes, that far behind.
If you mean Joker, look his profile up on Wikipedia. It chronicles most, if not all, the important story arcs.

[Klattimus_Darby]

Wow, I feel really behind in the conversation. I'm terrible at anagrams. I know from context what BTAS stands for. Im assuming Return Of The Joker, but what about MOTP. Also, where in the world can I find the comics/graphic novels to catch up on? Yes, that far behind.

What have you read?

[Bandyt]

I'd Rather read the Comics than read a Wikipedia Article on him.

[Cowleen]

Yeah. I'm always a little weary of how reliable Wiki is. I tried to find The Killing Joke at mt local bookstore and they said "out of print." Quite honestly, most of my expieience is with TAS and having an older brother that just answered my questions. I wasnt allowed to touch his comic books. Also, just recently discovered that my husband had a Dark Knight collection and recently sold it....

Short List for Him!

[Klattimus_Darby]

Wow, I feel really behind in the conversation. I'm terrible at anagrams. I know from context what BTAS stands for. Im assuming Return Of The Joker, but what about MOTP. Also, where in the world can I find the comics/graphic novels to catch up on? Yes, that far behind.

Look for:

Batman: Year One
Batman: The Long Halloween
Batman: Dark Victory
Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth (personal favorite)
Obviously Batman: The Killing Joke
Batman Hush: Vol. I and II (If anything for Jim Lee's artwork).

I consider the one's I listed except for Hush as great stand alone stories that really capture what Batman is all about. An added plus is that most of them take place in his early years and so there's no convuluted story arcs to catch up on.

[Cowleen]

The Killing Joke is $45 U.S.?!?!

It better be huge! and Gold-Leafed!
;)

[milarc]

I've been wanting to read Hush for some time now. I can't wait until I can afford it. (Damn rent and bills...)

[Doc Holliday]

I've been wanting to read Hush for some time now. I can't wait until I can afford it. (Damn rent and bills...)

Limewire it. I found The Killing Joke and some of the Year One comics in PDF in Limewire.

[SolidSnakeMGS]

Have you seen ROTJ? Joker was at his most evil there imo, in the flashback to his "last" confrontation with Batman and co.

I don't remember the Joker being in Return of the Jedi :huh::huh:

[LostSon88]

Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker

[Doc Holliday]

I don't remember the Joker being in Return of the Jedi :huh::huh:

http://media.npr.org/dvd/2004/nov/star_wars/jedi.jpg

http://www.mywasteofspace.com/ibelieveinharveydenttwo.jpg

You don't see the scarring resemblance?

[BatJew]

I just drew/sketched Heath Ledger as the Joker (im bored and on a night shift), ill colour it tomorrow and post it here. Its pretty detailed. Its him grinning with his slicked back hair (ala USA TODAY) and wearing his bank robbery outfit.

[BatJew]

The Killing Joke is $45 U.S.?!?!

It better be huge! and Gold-Leafed!
;)
I have a first printing edition from 1988, bagged and boarded since then and never ever read/touched in almost 20 years. If I had it graded by CGC it would be a 10, easily. I DID want to read it though, so I downloaded the book on PDF (hey, it may be illegal but at least I actually own the TPB :oldrazz: ). My favourite Batman stories are Joker: The Man Who Laughs, The Killing Joke, Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Arkham Asylum, The Dark Knight Returns and The Dark Knight Strikes Again...

[Keyser Soze]

Wow. I think we now officially have one person in the universe who hates The Joker from Batman: The Animated Series...

I look forward to seeing your drawing, BatJew!

[odiin]

Wow. I think we now officially have one person in the universe who hates The Joker from Batman: The Animated Series...

I look forward to seeing your drawing, BatJew!

I actually don't like the Joker from TAS either, no disrespect to the show, though. I actually haven't liked ANY adaption of the Joker be it live action or animated... except for ROTJ. That was the one interpretation of Mr. J I really dug. :up:

[Surge38]

Something to keep in mind.....

Arkham Asylum had the BEST explination for the joker, in my opinion. One of the doctors said the Joker is actually not actually INSANE. He litterally has no established personality...so every so often he "re-invents" himself. Thats why sometimes he's a relatively harmless bankrobber with a playfull clown gimmick, other times hes a homocidal (genocidal even) raving maniac.

It's not only an interesting interpritation, its also a great way to rationalize why almost every writer who uses the Joker writes him somewhat differently. If you think about it, all that is really set in stone about the joker is that he is a clown-themed villian. Yes there are paticulars that are almost always present, but the nature of his "insanity" is usually open to interpretation. Ceasar Romero...Mark Hamill....Jack Nicholson...all vastly different approaches. Did any of them do anything "wrong?" Not really....most times I hear people say "I perfer a cackling, cruel Joker to the playfull bank-robber..." The don't say the Joker ISN'T that way...just that they perfer a version of him that isn't.

Joker is the most interperitable character in all of comics. You can take the whole "insane clown" gimmick and play it out a million ways..and as long as you hit certain beats, it ends up reading as the Joker. So when I hear Nolan isn't intrerpriting the Joker faithfully to the comics, I scratch my head. Which comics? Which writer? Which version? Which time period?

Just something to think about when analizing THIS interpritation.





-Low post count does NOT always mean "Newby". Sometimes it means "really lazy guy who has been reading for ages but never felt like signing up"

[M!sterNorth]

Who do you think is most likely to get "Jokerized" in the Dark Knight?

[Keyser Soze]

Something to keep in mind.....

Arkham Asylum had the BEST explination for the joker, in my opinion. One of the doctors said the Joker is actually not actually INSANE. He litterally has no established personality...so every so often he "re-invents" himself. Thats why sometimes he's a relatively harmless bankrobber with a playfull clown gimmick, other times hes a homocidal (genocidal even) raving maniac.

It's not only an interesting interpritation, its also a great way to rationalize why almost every writer who uses the Joker writes him somewhat differently. If you think about it, all that is really set in stone about the joker is that he is a clown-themed villian. Yes there are paticulars that are almost always present, but the nature of his "insanity" is usually open to interpretation. Ceasar Romero...Mark Hamill....Jack Nicholson...all vastly different approaches. Did any of them do anything "wrong?" Not really....most times I hear people say "I perfer a cackling, cruel Joker to the playfull bank-robber..." The don't say the Joker ISN'T that way...just that they perfer a version of him that isn't.

Joker is the most interperitable character in all of comics. You can take the whole "insane clown" gimmick and play it out a million ways..and as long as you hit certain beats, it ends up reading as the Joker. So when I hear Nolan isn't intrerpriting the Joker faithfully to the comics, I scratch my head. Which comics? Which writer? Which version? Which time period?

Just something to think about when analizing THIS interpritation.





-Low post count does NOT always mean "Newby". Sometimes it means "really lazy guy who has been reading for ages but never felt like signing up"


Great first post! Welcome to The Hype!

[Vile]

Something to keep in mind.....

Arkham Asylum had the BEST explination for the joker, in my opinion. One of the doctors said the Joker is actually not actually INSANE. He litterally has no established personality...so every so often he "re-invents" himself. Thats why sometimes he's a relatively harmless bankrobber with a playfull clown gimmick, other times hes a homocidal (genocidal even) raving maniac.

It's not only an interesting interpritation, its also a great way to rationalize why almost every writer who uses the Joker writes him somewhat differently. If you think about it, all that is really set in stone about the joker is that he is a clown-themed villian. Yes there are paticulars that are almost always present, but the nature of his "insanity" is usually open to interpretation. Ceasar Romero...Mark Hamill....Jack Nicholson...all vastly different approaches. Did any of them do anything "wrong?" Not really....most times I hear people say "I perfer a cackling, cruel Joker to the playfull bank-robber..." The don't say the Joker ISN'T that way...just that they perfer a version of him that isn't.

Joker is the most interperitable character in all of comics. You can take the whole "insane clown" gimmick and play it out a million ways..and as long as you hit certain beats, it ends up reading as the Joker. So when I hear Nolan isn't intrerpriting the Joker faithfully to the comics, I scratch my head. Which comics? Which writer? Which version? Which time period?

Just something to think about when analizing THIS interpritation.





-Low post count does NOT always mean "Newby". Sometimes it means "really lazy guy who has been reading for ages but never felt like signing up"

:up: :up: :up: :up: :up:

[Akimych]

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/akimych/jokke.jpg

[FCEEVIPER]

How do you think they should make Joker's smile?

They could just have the actor pull as big a grin as he can or they could go with makeup like they did in B89:

http://www.dfi.dk/dfi/undervisning/fatomfilm/grafik/joker.jpg http://www.kirstenp.claranet.de/comicmovies/pictures/batman04.jpg

Or they could use computers to enlarge the smile like what was done to the character Phlox in the show Enterprise:

http://www.angelfire.com/trek/shipkeeper/brokenbow/62.jpg

I think they shoud cg it. Itcan really make Joker creepy, and it can not only be done on his smile but on other facial expressions such as frowns. But Nolan has stated that he wants his Batman movies to be as realistic as possible so he may just go with makeup. What do you think?
I really hope for Rachel Dawes. :cmad:

[Batman jr.]

Something to keep in mind.....

Arkham Asylum had the BEST explination for the joker, in my opinion. One of the doctors said the Joker is actually not actually INSANE. He litterally has no established personality...so every so often he "re-invents" himself. Thats why sometimes he's a relatively harmless bankrobber with a playfull clown gimmick, other times hes a homocidal (genocidal even) raving maniac.

It's not only an interesting interpritation, its also a great way to rationalize why almost every writer who uses the Joker writes him somewhat differently. If you think about it, all that is really set in stone about the joker is that he is a clown-themed villian. Yes there are paticulars that are almost always present, but the nature of his "insanity" is usually open to interpretation. Ceasar Romero...Mark Hamill....Jack Nicholson...all vastly different approaches. Did any of them do anything "wrong?" Not really....most times I hear people say "I perfer a cackling, cruel Joker to the playfull bank-robber..." The don't say the Joker ISN'T that way...just that they perfer a version of him that isn't.

Joker is the most interperitable character in all of comics. You can take the whole "insane clown" gimmick and play it out a million ways..and as long as you hit certain beats, it ends up reading as the Joker. So when I hear Nolan isn't intrerpriting the Joker faithfully to the comics, I scratch my head. Which comics? Which writer? Which version? Which time period?

Just something to think about when analizing THIS interpritation.





-Low post count does NOT always mean "Newby". Sometimes it means "really lazy guy who has been reading for ages but never felt like signing up"

So true, I really like the Joker pics so far, especially the last one!

[LostSon88]

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i5/akimych/jokke.jpg

What? I don't get it. :huh:

[ghost_x]

Apparently the Joker picture looks like Venom, but also he apparently looks like Anakin Skywalker...

[Doc Holliday]

What? I don't get it. :huh:

I'm guessing villains that weren't done justice?

[itsthebatman]

I really hope for Rachel Dawes. :cmad:
Holy first post resurrection Batman!

[itsthebatman]

I'm guessing villains that weren't done justice?
Venom has been and gone.
Joker, we've had two pictures, and some snippets of dialogue.
Hold your fire.

[jimmy]

http://www.angelfire.com/trek/shipkeeper/brokenbow/62.jpg

The elephant man.

[DieSmiling]

B:TAS Joker is perfect. Mark Hamil rules all.

[jimmy]

Okay.

[Doc Holliday]

Venom has been and gone.
Joker, we've had two pictures, and some snippets of dialogue.
Hold your fire.

I'm guessing at his opinion. I'm witholding judgement about the Joker being done justice until I see TDK. In the meanwhile, I will however, question what Nolan is doing because I don't like where he's going with it, but he could totally get it right, and that would be awesome.

[itsthebatman]

I'm guessing at his opinion. I'm witholding judgement about the Joker being done justice until I see TDK. In the meanwhile, I will however, question what Nolan is doing because I don't like where he's going with it, but he could totally get it right, and that would be awesome.
The price of Batman liberty is eternal Joker vigilance.

[The Redux 714]

Look guys, we really have no idea how TDK is gonna play out. We've got what...a handful on pics, and none of them really show much of anything. We know nothing about the Joker's character, Batman's suit/issues, AMH, anything. No one, not even the guys making the film, can pass judgement on what it will be like.

Venom, on the other hand, was shafted in SM3, because SM3 was on par with Plan 9 From Outer Space.

[Eros]

Plus venom sucks in the comics to Redux.

[The Redux 714]

Plus venom sucks in the comics to Redux.

What are you saying here? That it's your opinion that Venom sucks in the comics, and the comment was directed at moi, or are you saying that, to me, Venom sucks.

[Eros]

What are you saying here? That it's your opinion that Venom sucks in the comics, and the comment was directed at moi, or are you saying that, to me, Venom sucks.


Venom sucks.

[strikezone89]

i like the scar smile they gave him

[J. J. Jameson]

Venom sucks.

:wow:

[BatJew]

Behold, my craptacular masterpiece is finished:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h31/JeremyHope/jokersketchcolour.jpg

[ToddIsDead]

Once again, the drawing is fine, but the Joke design just doesn't work. Especially as a drawing.

[The Guard]

None of these manips are bad, but they don't make me like the design any more.

Apparentely, Bob Kane and Bill Finger also took their inspiration from the "cartoon".

Those aren't black circles around The Joker's eyes, though, in that drawing. Those are meant to be shaded "bags" under The Joker's eyes. The animated series "black circles" were made to imitate sunken features. Darkening the white around The Joker's eye sockets creates this effect. Making them outright black on film creates an entirely different one.

And Harley Quinn did originate in the animated series, but her comic book personality has far surpassed her animated one. While I don't want to see "full on Harley Quinn" in THE DARK KNIGHT, I wouldn't mind a cameo. She's earned her spot as a part of the Batman mythology.

So will it bother people if The Joker is Australian?

[SolidSnakeMGS]

So will it bother people if The Joker is Australian?

I imagine if people aren't bothered that Batman is Welsh and Gordon is British, I assume they won't mind an Aussie Joker.

[Keyser Soze]

Behold, my craptacular masterpiece is finished:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h31/JeremyHope/jokersketchcolour.jpg

Great drawing, BatJew!

I have to say, the more of these I see, the more I'm convinced that The Joker is going to look great. Yeah, there are some changes, but the basics of The Joker's look are very much still intact.

If anything, BatJew, I think you could have made The Joker's smile even bigger, with the cuts extending further up his cheek. But other than that, this is an excellent picture. Good work!

[Tyrinus]

Anyone else hoping to hear Joker refer to Batman as 'Batsy'?

ex.
"What's the matter, Batsy, can't take a joke?"

[ThorsRage]

I cannot wait to see the joker in a trailer. I find it crazy that so many people are jumping to conclusions on nolan's joker. We have seen two pictures of Nolan's Joker, and one was just face, no hair, no grin, nothing but a bad mug shot and the other was just a blurrred silhouette, but what you could see looked awesome!
Nolan can't make everyone happy, but when we see a trailer of the joker we'll all know how he's gonna move and smile and everything else. Until you see that how can anyone possibly say nolan is messing up the joker.
everyone's view of the joker is different, I'm just glad they are making another movie about him!

[BatJew]

Great drawing, BatJew!

I have to say, the more of these I see, the more I'm convinced that The Joker is going to look great. Yeah, there are some changes, but the basics of The Joker's look are very much still intact.

If anything, BatJew, I think you could have made The Joker's smile even bigger, with the cuts extending further up his cheek. But other than that, this is an excellent picture. Good work!
Thank you :oldrazz: I drew it last night at work, I was bored...

[Lunar_Wolf]

I love the Joker look. I just hope we get a great preformance which I think we will get.

[BatJew]

I love the Joker look. I just hope we get a great preformance which I think we will get.
Heath Ledger is a great actor. While Jack Nicholson is a good actor, I still believe Ledger is better. He will actually be playing the Joker, not Jack Nicholson as the Joker. Nolan really knows how to pick a cast. Bale, Ledger, Freeman, Oldman, Eckhart, Gyllenhaal...hot damn, I cant wait for this movie! :csad:

[ToddIsDead]

I ask anyone to watch the SmileX commercial scene from Batman and tell me that that isn't quintessential Joker on the screen.

[The Kid]

What's wrong with joker's lip? looks like it's melting

[JStorm]

I ask anyone to watch the SmileX commercial scene from Batman and tell me that that isn't quintessential Joker on the screen.

The BrandX commercial?

I watched Batman the other day, and it didn't jump out at me. But I didn't have your post to ponder either.

I'll pay strict attention next time I watch it.

[ToddIsDead]

The BrandX commercial?

I watched Batman the other day, and it didn't jump out at me. But I didn't have your post to ponder either.

I'll pay strict attention next time I watch it.

You better! *shakes fist*

[JStorm]

You better! *shakes fist*

"He's been usin' brandxxxxss."

[The Redux 714]

I still prefer the whole electrocution scene...

"Life's been good to me...heh heh heh..."

"I'm glad your dead!"

[lixdexia]

nah, the best is when he calms down really fast and shoots bob with his own gun.

[Shoemeister]

"He's been usin' brandxxxxss."

Haha, good stuff.

[The Redux 714]

nah, the best is when he calms down really fast and shoots bob with his own gun.

How could I forget...:whatever: ahhh memories...

[Bandyt]

So, Who else can see this happening?

http://a518.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/10/l_e17b7e5ce3ea308440f9726229f4a725.jpg

[Bandyt]

http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jokerchoker3mt4.jpg

Yeah, ok...can anyone link me to a good Image hosting site? Apparently SHH doesn't like Imageshack?

[itsthebatman]

So, Who else can see this happening?

http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jokerchoker3mt4.jpg
The more red x's there are, the happier I am.
Is that 'brand xssssssssss?'

[Bandyt]

Is the picture showing yet?

[itsthebatman]

Is the picture showing yet?
Nope.
*puts up feet, opens beer, waits patiently*

[Bandyt]

http://a518.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/10/l_e17b7e5ce3ea308440f9726229f4a725.jpg

[Bandyt]

I can see it...you can't?

[itsthebatman]

I can see it...you can't?
It's there now. Hopefully Bats will give him a good beating, and maybe Jim will have to talk him down. Or shoot one of his ears off.

[Bandyt]

In the comic is comes from, HUSH, Vol.2, Gordon does stop bats from killing Joker. I also love how the Joker screams out "Battyman!" he needs to do that in the Movie. Fark, I can't get over how perfect Gary Oldman is for Jim. I don't think I would have picked Gary Oldman as the Commish.

[itsthebatman]

In the comic is comes from, HUSH, Vol.2, Gordon does stop bats from killing Joker. I also love how the Joker screams out "Battyman!" he needs to do that in the Movie. Fark, I can't get over how perfect Gary Oldman is for Jim. I don't think I would have picked Gary Oldman as the Commish.
I read HUSH, I certainly wasn't claiming that as an original idea, I haven't the imagination.:woot: Joker definitely has to call him 'Bats' or 'Batsy' or 'Battyman', some kind of nickname is needed.
Oldman?:up: :up: :up:

[hannya]

http://a518.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/10/l_e17b7e5ce3ea308440f9726229f4a725.jpg
Fantastic picture, does anyone know who the artist is? I assume it's from a Hush cover.
I think it's a pretty safe bet that Batman will pull back from killing the Joker at the end of TDK. "You just didn't have the nerve..."

[Nepenthes]

Either Jim Lee or Andy Kubert

great drawing but I really don't like that freaky kind of demon Joker.

[hannya]

Either Jim Lee or Andy Kubert

great drawing but I really don't like that freaky kind of demon Joker.

Thanks.

I would have LOVED to see this kind of interpretation, a completely terrifying headcase. But I suppose that kind of Joker belongs in an alternate universe where TDK is being made by David Fincher, and Vincent Cassell is the main man (after years of coaching to sort out his accent).

[Keyser Soze]

I ask anyone to watch the SmileX commercial scene from Batman and tell me that that isn't quintessential Joker on the screen.

I've said this before, but its worth saying again. I don't feel the need to undercut one view to support another. Yes, I like the look of the new Joker, and yes, I'm confident Heath Ledger will nail the role. But as trendy as it is to hate Jack Nicholson's Joker around here these days, I have to say I thought he was fantastic in the role. That performance still stands as the ultimate comic book movie villain, and is the performance I measure all other comic book movie villains against.

To me, Heath Ledger's biggest obstacle isn't whether or not he has a cut-smile or black circles around his eyes. That's insignificant, small potatoes. The big hurdle he's going to have to overcome as The Joker is that - to the general Joe-average moviegoing public - Jack Nicholson IS The Joker. He's got a tough act to follow.

[itsthebatman]

Thanks.

I would have LOVED to see this kind of interpretation, a completely terrifying headcase. But I suppose that kind of Joker belongs in an alternate universe where TDK is being made by David Fincher, and Vincent Cassell is the main man (after years of coaching to sort out his accent).
Well, we don't know that he won't be a completely terrifying headcase.

[Paste Pot Pete]

Fark, I can't get over how perfect Gary Oldman is for Jim. I don't think I would have picked Gary Oldman as the Commish.

It was a stroke of brilliance, to say the least. I love that Nolan took an actor known mostly for his great villainous turns and made him into Gotham's honest cop. And as a fan of the actor, it was fun to see him play that type of role.

Ditto for Neeson, who on the surface was cast to type (the noble mentor/father figure), but this time with a great sinister edge.

[Keyser Soze]

It was a stroke of brilliance, to say the least. I love that Nolan took an actor known mostly for his great villainous turns and made him into Gotham's honest cop. And as a fan of the actor, it was fun to see him play that type of role.

Ditto for Neeson, who on the surface was cast to type (the noble mentor/father figure), but this time with a great sinister edge.

I think that Nolan's choice of casting is truly inspired, through all of his films. He loves to play with audience preconceptions of actors - as seen by casting Robin Williams as a dead-serious serial killer in "Insomnia" or indeed the examples you bring up from "Batman Begins", Pete.

I also like how Nolan continues his ongoing fascination with identity when it comes to casting. There is a good degree of overlap in his roles. Cillian Murphy plays Scarecrow, but he was originally on the final shortlist for Batman. And isn't it funny thinking that the actors who play Batman and Gordon could both have conceivably pulled off The Joker?

[Paste Pot Pete]

I think that Nolan's choice of casting is truly inspired, through all of his films. He loves to play with audience preconceptions of actors - as seen by casting Robin Williams as a dead-serious serial killer in "Insomnia" or indeed the examples you bring up from "Batman Begins", Pete.

I also like how Nolan continues his ongoing fascination with identity when it comes to casting. There is a good degree of overlap in his roles. Cillian Murphy plays Scarecrow, but he was originally on the final shortlist for Batman. And isn't it funny thinking that the actors who play Batman and Gordon could both have conceivably pulled off The Joker?

It's why I anticipate Ledger's Joker so much. He's another one of those actors that no one expected for the role and, like the others, I bet he nails it.

And that is funny, yeah. I know Oldman was definitely on a few shortlists to play Joker.

Which reminds me, wasn't there a report from before Begins of Nolan meeting with Ledger? I'd love to know if that was for a role in that movie (Batman, maybe) or possibly even an advanced meeting about the Joker.

[Bandyt]

HUSH, Written by Jeph Loeb, Pencilled by Jim Lee and Inked by Scott Williams. I have a few other good pics of the Joker from it that I need to scan in. Most notably the one where The Joker is squatting over a Body grinning with the "Bang" hand gun in his hand. "Now that's how you make an entrance"

Also funny is the Little blue batman box that says "There was something about the Opera - how they often ended in tragedy-that my father found appealing..." ...yeah, he just came out of the Opera.

[hannya]

Well, we don't know that he won't be a completely terrifying headcase.

I live in hope!
To be absolutely honest I was an early supporter of the gashed smile Ledger look as soon as that first spy report broke, the one about him having "grey skin and scarring".
And yet...
Pictures like that HUSH one have started me thinking again. So far I don't like the colour of the hair (puke yellow rather than the vibrant emerald it should be) and I don't like the panda eyes. I don't care if it's just a "transient" look in the film, why does the Joker's look need to "evolve"? I remember thinking about Paul Bettany in the role when his name was first mentioned, and imagining him chalk white, slicked back dark green hair, immaculately dressed in green and purple. That actor and that look were both options. We've ended up with neither.
I'm still excited about Ledger in the role and I'll think it'll be a heart-stopping performance.
But Bettany, Eccleston, Gosling.... I don't think I'll be able to stop myself from imagining them on screen instead come July next year...

[Bandyt]

For the poll thing, All the votes for Rachael getting Jokerized are just wishful thinking. We all know it'll be Boss Maroni that gets it square on the Jaw.

[hannya]

For the poll thing, All the votes for Rachael getting Jokerized are just wishful thinking. We all know it'll be Boss Maroni that gets it square on the Jaw.

Rachael's a good each-way bet. If the rumours are true and the Joker is locked up in Arkham at the end of TDK, the audience has got to feel relieved (to a point) that he's where he belongs. Whatever he does to other characters, nothing will have the same impact as him killing or hurting someone close to Bruce Wayne.
My money's on Rachael surviving (barely) a nasty bout of Jokerization...

[Nepenthes]

HUSH, Written by Jeph Loeb, Pencilled by Jim Lee and Inked by Scott Williams. I have a few other good pics of the Joker from it that I need to scan in. Most notably the one where The Joker is squatting over a Body grinning with the "Bang" hand gun in his hand. "Now that's how you make an entrance"

mate don't bother that pic's all over the net anyway

Also funny is the Little blue batman box that says "There was something about the Opera - how they often ended in tragedy-that my father found appealing..." ...yeah, he just came out of the Opera.

yep i thought so to

[Digital_Ashes]

He's charming. Unlike most villians, he actually is likeable to a point. In the fact that he's an amazing speaker, he's an intelligent person, and he's handsome behind the clown face or even with. People are comparing him to Gacy and that's just absurd.

He's Ted Bundy in clown make-up and never takes anything seriously. The only thing he does take seriously is his deep hate for Batman.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/17/Ted_Bundy_4.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/54/Ted_Bundy_3.jpg

That's Ted Bundy, confessed to 33 murders, ten of which are unidentified, he jumped out of a two story building escaping custody, afterwards he talked his way out of being shot by a vigilante citizen, he was caught later, and then escaped jail by sawing through a metal plate leading to the ventilation system.

Crime author Ann Rule states that Eleanor's younger sister recalls an incident with the young Ted Bundy. After laying down in the Cowell's home for a nap, his aunt Julia woke to find herself surrounded by knives from the Cowell kitchen. Three-year-old Ted was standing by the bed, smiling at her.

Despite the brutality of his crimes, Bundy was frequently described as educated and charming. His personal friends and acquaintances would remember him as a handsome and articulate young man.

When Florida detectives begged Bundy to tell them where he'd dumped Kimberly Leach, Bundy said "But I'm the most cold-hearted son of a ***** you'll ever meet."

"Ted Bundy was completely sane.....Just evil."

=========

These are just a few anecdotes about Ted Bundy, but I think they completely and accurately describe how Nolan's joker should act. Charming, intelligent, the ability to be sarcastic and mean and funny all to himself, and just so happen to look like a clown.

Batman then takes away his charm through the disfigurement and his sanity drops completely off.

[Fried Gold]

Weirdo.

[Digital_Ashes]

www.wikipedia.org

[batman11]

Digital_Ashes, I suggest that next time a thought such as this pops into your mind, take it to the official Joker threads instead of creating a new one. By making this thread you are now open to flaming. You'll have to live with it now.

[Digital_Ashes]

Well, I'm just presenting an idea you know, I was actually looking for the man who laughs last thread, but it was unstickied and I just didn't care enough to search for it. If someone wants to go out of their way to say something dumb and immature so be it.

The point is, well, a newer point is most people base the Joker off of one of America's many many serial killers. Hell, even www.movies.com, compared the new look to Gacy, and I've read many comic reviews that'll go out of their way to make references to serial killers.

[arachnid-guy]

I just wiki'ed him.

Fascinating man.

[BubbaGump]

Digital_Ashes, I suggest that next time a thought such as this pops into your mind, take it to the official Joker threads instead of creating a new one. By making this thread you are now open to flaming. You'll have to live with it now.

Not really. I never would've seen this if it was in the Joker thread (there's just too much discussion going on there--it's like a crowded room, I don't bother anymore).

This comparison to this Ted Bundy guy is pretty interesting. He reminds me of the Gotham Central Joker.

[batman11]

I understand your feelings. I also should have stated that this thread is likely to close in 5 minutes, meaning that if you would have posted it in a preexisting thread, the idea may live a lot longer. I'm just trying to help you out here. BTW, I did the searching for you.

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=263757

[JStorm]

Wikipedia lists the Joker's illness as Anti-social Personality Disorder.

I think the only one, of the sickos, listed with the same illness is Manson.

[batman11]

Not really. I never would've seen this if it was in the Joker thread (there's just too much discussion going on there--it's like a crowded room, I don't bother anymore).

This comparison to this Ted Bundy guy is pretty interesting. He reminds me of the Gotham Central Joker.

If he would've made the gigantic post post like he made here, with two images and the bold text, including the fact that the "Man Who Laughs Thread" hasn't been updated in a while, I highly doubt you would miss his idea.

[Infinity9999x]

You know, I just got done watching ROTJ (the uncensored version) and I have to say I think I liked that even more then MOTP, surprising, seeing as how I wasn't a big fan of Terry. But really, I just love how they do the Joker in that movie. I'm really hoping that in TDK we get to see a Joker similar to the one in ROTJ.

I was also wondering, if they do a movie after Nolan's trilogy featuring an aging Bruce training someone in the style of The Mask of Zorro and Batman Beyond, who would like to see a live action movie simmilar to ROTJ? I think it could be a very good live action movie. It's already extremely dark, and I think the flashback scene of the "final confrontation" is my favorite movie Joker moment. What he did to Robin was so twisted, yet so Joker. That moment really epitomized the character for me.

[Digital_Ashes]

This is more about serial killers with a similairity towards the joker than the joker himself, this is an entirely different discussion.

[The Guard]

I'll be honest, charm is not at all what makes The Joker interesting or different than other villains. Charm is something he can do. What is interesting is that he can be DAMN NEAR ANYTHING he pleases, and it still works in the context of the character. His incongruities and inconsistencies are what make him such a fantastic, and usually fresh, villain.

[Digital_Ashes]

But you have to admit, charm is consistantly part of whatever role he takes. I think it's his most unique aspect in terms of personality and characterization.

[Abaddon]

Joker....handsome?:huh:

The big diff here is that Ted Bundy was living a double life. Joker is always Joker, and he doesn't pretend to be anything else.

[Digital_Ashes]

Check out Brian Bolland's joker, in the world of drawn joker's, he draws his like he was in a boy band.

I realize Bundy was living a double, wouldn't you think Joker would be doing that too, if he didn't look like a clown 24/7?

[batman11]

This is more about serial killers with a similairity towards the joker than the joker himself, this is an entirely different discussion.

Its still about the Joker though. :cwink:

Look I understand what you're trying to say, and you're right, its just if we want to be consistent I guess we have to start somewhere. Nothing against you personally at all. As a matter of fact, I like the thread idea, its quite interesting.

[StorminNorman]

The wonderful thing about Tigger, is that Tigger's the only one.

[Baba Ghanoush]

Do you know that Ted Bundy once had a collie named Lassie?

[Steelsheen]

good point about the Ted Bundy comparisson.

[Digital_Ashes]

When Florida detectives begged Bundy to tell them where he'd dumped Kimberly Leach, Bundy said "But I'm the most cold-hearted son of a ***** you'll ever meet."

I think this is probably the best idea of what Nolan's humor for the Joker should be.

When Batman asks Joker what he did with whatever, he starts acting like a baby and does the whole, "but I thought you said I was crazy and mean, why would a mean person tell you where the body is." type thing, just being a prick for prick's sake.

[odiin]

The only thing he does take seriously is his deep hate for Batman.

I wouldn't say "hate" but rather "obsession." Truth be told I think in his own distorted way he sort of idolizes batman and worships the very IDEA of him to the point where if he actually found out the Bruce Wayne was Batman he wouldn't care whatsover or even try to mess with Bruce because it's the symbol that he's obsessed with, not the man behind it... That's just the way I see it, at least. I know everyone has a different interpretation.

[batman11]

I wouldn't say "hate" but rather "obsession." Truth be told I think in his own distorted way he sort of idolizes batman and worships the very IDEA of him to the point where if he actually found out the Bruce Wayne was Batman he wouldn't care whatsover or even try to mess with Bruce because it's the symbol that he's obsessed with, not the man behind it... That's just the way I see it, at least. I know everyone has a different interpretation.

That's how I see it as well. The Joker would die if he found out Bruce was Batman. His game would be over.

[BubbaGump]

If he would've made the gigantic post post like he made here, with two images and the bold text, including the fact that the "Man Who Laughs Thread" hasn't been updated in a while, I highly doubt you would miss his idea.

The last time I went into the Man Who Laughs thread was 2 weeks ago.

[Abaddon]

Check out Brian Bolland's joker, in the world of drawn joker's, he draws his like he was in a boy band.

I realize Bundy was living a double, wouldn't you think Joker would be doing that too, if he didn't look like a clown 24/7?

hmmm, good question, but I don't really think so. I can't imagine him having a steady relationship with a woman, while he's doing all the kinds of things he's notorious for.

[Paste Pot Pete]

Do you know that Ted Bundy once had a collie named Lassie?

I like to dissect girls. Did you know I'm utterly insane?

[batman11]

The last time I went into the Man Who Laughs thread was 2 weeks ago.

Okay. So? I'm not trying to start up, but just because you don't go there anymore, doesn't mean its an invalid place to post interesting ideas and facts about the Joker.

I do understand though that it is easier to make a single thread, and I agree with that fact. But like I said, if these boards wanna stay consistent, then they should stay consistent.

[The Redux 714]

He's charming. Unlike most villians, he actually is likeable to a point. In the fact that he's an amazing speaker, he's an intelligent person, and he's handsome behind the clown face or even with. People are comparing him to Gacy and that's just absurd.

He's Ted Bundy in clown make-up and never takes anything seriously. The only thing he does take seriously is his deep hate for Batman.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/17/Ted_Bundy_4.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/54/Ted_Bundy_3.jpg

That's Ted Bundy, confessed to 33 murders, ten of which are unidentified, he jumped out of a two story building escaping custody, afterwards he talked his way out of being shot by a vigilante citizen, he was caught later, and then escaped jail by sawing through a metal plate leading to the ventilation system.

Crime author Ann Rule states that Eleanor's younger sister recalls an incident with the young Ted Bundy. After laying down in the Cowell's home for a nap, his aunt Julia woke to find herself surrounded by knives from the Cowell kitchen. Three-year-old Ted was standing by the bed, smiling at her.

Despite the brutality of his crimes, Bundy was frequently described as educated and charming. His personal friends and acquaintances would remember him as a handsome and articulate young man.

When Florida detectives begged Bundy to tell them where he'd dumped Kimberly Leach, Bundy said "But I'm the most cold-hearted son of a ***** you'll ever meet."

"Ted Bundy was completely sane.....Just evil."

=========

These are just a few anecdotes about Ted Bundy, but I think they completely and accurately describe how Nolan's joker should act. Charming, intelligent, the ability to be sarcastic and mean and funny all to himself, and just so happen to look like a clown.

Batman then takes away his charm through the disfigurement and his sanity drops completely off.

Good post.

[Nepenthes]

Charles Manson was arguably more charming than Ted Bundy. Manson only charmed among certain circles I know, but then so does the Joker, among the criminal. Thing is he can amass followers, which Bundy never did.


Wikipedia lists the Joker's illness as Anti-social Personality Disorder.I think the only one, of the sickos, listed with the same illness is Manson.

I wouldn't try to fit Joker into any pre-existing category or illness. He's far beyond ASPD, the Wiki entry shouldn't have that. If Joker were real they'd write an entirely new profile for him. Or not, because they wouldn't be able to figure out his problem most likely.

[BubbaGump]

Okay. So? I'm not trying to start up, but just because you don't go there anymore, doesn't mean its an invalid place to post interesting ideas and facts about the Joker.

I do understand though that it is easier to make a single thread, and I agree with that fact. But like I said, if these boards wanna stay consistent, then they should stay consistent.

I'm just saying that I don't go there anymore, and I wouldn't have noticed this since I don't visit that thread. I didn't say the Man Who Laughs thread is an invalid place to post interesting ideas. On the contrary, I happen to think it's a great thread (I finally took a look a couple of minutes ago) with a lot of useful info and discussion. Ideas just get bumped away and ignored too easily there. In the MWL thread this Ted Burns discussion wouldn't go as far as it has right now (two pages) due to the fact that the next interesting tidbit would bump it out of the discussion.

It's okay to post an interesting thread concerning Joker, but you have to use your own judgement on whether or not people will flame because you posted it. Digital_Ashes had something to say, and it was interesting. No one's flaming him for that.

[Digital_Ashes]

Wikipedia lists the Joker's illness as Anti-social Personality Disorder.

I think the only one, of the sickos, listed with the same illness is Manson.

I don't know, Manson is kind of...he completely insane. He thought the beatles were the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

He was a prolific songwriter though, which I find ironic in all sorts of ways. I don't think manson ever killed anyone though did he? He just constructed a cult to do his bidding.

[BubbaGump]

I cannot wait to see the joker in a trailer. I find it crazy that so many people are jumping to conclusions on nolan's joker. We have seen two pictures of Nolan's Joker, and one was just face, no hair, no grin, nothing but a bad mug shot and the other was just a blurrred silhouette, but what you could see looked awesome!
Nolan can't make everyone happy, but when we see a trailer of the joker we'll all know how he's gonna move and smile and everything else. Until you see that how can anyone possibly say nolan is messing up the joker.
everyone's view of the joker is different, I'm just glad they are making another movie about him!

A worthy first post. People are flaming each other based on a couple of pictures. I, too, am content that Nolan's tackling the Joker.

[Nepenthes]

He never killed anyone with his own hand but he's still directly responsible, no would've died if not if not for him.


It's pretty common for people to have delusions like Manson did- it doesn't make him unique or "completely insane''. Completely insane doesn't really exist. But I get what you mean, Bundy was capable of appearing "perfectly sane, but just evil". Maybe he was 100% rational just his emotions were shot to shiiit.

Joker really is an absurd example of insanity, you can only compare aspects of him to real life. He's a construct of Bundy, Manson, Gacy, Zodiac...going all the way down (or up?) to Satan himself, who has the most parallels with the Joker of all.

[Digital_Ashes]

Well there's plenty of types of insane, theres:

Downing your baby because you thought it was a demon insane.
Organizing a cult because you believe yourself a god insane.
Organizing a cult because you believe the end of the world is coming insane.

The Vampire Of Sacra Mento insane =
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vampire_of_Sacramento
(this person is probably the most insane and crazy person ever documented.)


Here's a quick excerpt:

Waiting to die, Chase became a feared presence in prison; the other inmates (including several gang members), aware of the graphic and bizarre nature of his crimes, feared him, and according to prison officials, they often tried to convince Chase to commit suicide, too fearful to get close enough to him to kill him themselves. Chase also granted a series of interviews with Robert Ressler, during which he spoke of his fears of Nazis and UFOs, claiming that although he had killed, it was not his fault; he had been forced to kill to keep himself alive, which he believed any person would do. He asked Ressler to give him access to a radar gun, with which he could apprehend the Nazi UFOs, so that the Nazis could stand trial for the murders. He also handed Ressler a large amount of macaroni and cheese which he had been hoarding in his pants pockets, believing that the prison officials were in league with the Nazis and attempting to kill him.

And Ted Bundy, which I would say he fits under the idea of super-sanity.

[DSET]

You know, I just got done watching ROTJ (the uncensored version) and I have to say I think I liked that even more then MOTP, surprising, seeing as how I wasn't a big fan of Terry. But really, I just love how they do the Joker in that movie. I'm really hoping that in TDK we get to see a Joker similar to the one in ROTJ.

I was also wondering, if they do a movie after Nolan's trilogy featuring an aging Bruce training someone in the style of The Mask of Zorro and Batman Beyond, who would like to see a live action movie simmilar to ROTJ? I think it could be a very good live action movie. It's already extremely dark, and I think the flashback scene of the "final confrontation" is my favorite movie Joker moment. What he did to Robin was so twisted, yet so Joker. That moment really epitomized the character for me.

I really loved both those animated films
ROTJ definitely had a better story and an amazing take on the joker. But as an overall movie MOTP was very well established and more believable (although it didn’t need to be it was an animated movie).

I’m sure they are borrowing a lot of story elements from all over the place like they did in BB. And they already used that water pump idea from BTAS in BB (which was also originally borrowed from a comic I think). So it’s quite possible they could already be incorporating ideas or characteristics from any of the BTAS or Batman Beyond and what not.

Man if they do a story on the aging Batman I pray the do something similar to the Dark Knight Returns. Even though it’s got allot of fantasy elements in it. If they could make it a little more grounded it would be Phenomenal.

[Nepenthes]

Well there's plenty of types of insane, theres:

Downing your baby because you thought it was a demon insane.
Organizing a cult because you believe yourself a god insane.
Organizing a cult because you believe the end of the world is coming insane.

The Vampire Of Sacra Mento insane

No they're actually all the same. 'Visionary' killers who kill because they have delusions. They usually have to prevent something bad from happening, or help bring about some fantasy event. Joker is not one of them.


And Ted Bundy, which I would say he fits under the idea of super-sanity.

Super-sanity does not exist, even 'the idea' of it is vague. It's just a term one-writer invented and used in two issues. It probably refers to how the Joker has no core personality and can invent new ones periodically, but again this is only one writers idea.

Bundy wasn't rational, even people with shot emotions can tell discern basic morality.

[Abaddon]

The Vampire Of Sacra Mento insane =
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vampire_of_Sacramento
(this person is probably the most insane and crazy person ever documented.)


Jesus ****ing Christ.:csad:

[The Question]

I really don't think comparing The Joker to Ted Bundy is particularly acurate at all. Bundy was legally sane, even though he was fairly emotionally disturbed and far from normal. The Joker is genuinely insane, both clinically and legally, and his insanity is much more complex than Bundy's. The Joker is a creature driven completly by the Id, by desire. To the point where he completely reinvents himself based on mere whims fairly regularly. That's why sometimes he's a harmless prankster, sometimes he's a serial killer, sometimes he's a mob boss, sometimes he's a theif, sometimes he's a con artist, sometimes he's simply a counter-culture trouble maker, sometimes he's a dadaist anti-hero, and sometimes he's even a comedic hero. He has no genuine personality. He started out as a nihilistic hedonist with sever anger issues, but his mental state degraded to the point where he's driven completely by impulse and barely in touch with reality. In his mind, he's an improvisational actor on a stage. That's where his overall connecting sense of theatrics comes from. Also, The Joker was driven insane by events in his life. Bundy was born screwed up.

He never killed anyone with his own hand but he's still directly responsible, no would've died if not if not for him.


It's pretty common for people to have delusions like Manson did- it doesn't make him unique or "completely insane''. Completely insane doesn't really exist. But I get what you mean, Bundy was capable of appearing "perfectly sane, but just evil". Maybe he was 100% rational just his emotions were shot to shiiit.

Joker really is an absurd example of insanity, you can only compare aspects of him to real life. He's a construct of Bundy, Manson, Gacy, Zodiac...going all the way down (or up?) to Satan himself, who has the most parallels with the Joker of all.

The Joker isn't a composite of any of those people, and there are very few paralels between him and Satan. The Joker is unique unto himself. If you're going to compare him to any mythological figure, the closest would probably be Loki. And even then, The Joker's crazier.

Well there's plenty of types of insane, theres:

Downing your baby because you thought it was a demon insane.
Organizing a cult because you believe yourself a god insane.
Organizing a cult because you believe the end of the world is coming insane.

The Vampire Of Sacra Mento insane =
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vampire_of_Sacramento
(this person is probably the most insane and crazy person ever documented.)


Here's a quick excerpt:

Waiting to die, Chase became a feared presence in prison; the other inmates (including several gang members), aware of the graphic and bizarre nature of his crimes, feared him, and according to prison officials, they often tried to convince Chase to commit suicide, too fearful to get close enough to him to kill him themselves. Chase also granted a series of interviews with Robert Ressler, during which he spoke of his fears of Nazis and UFOs, claiming that although he had killed, it was not his fault; he had been forced to kill to keep himself alive, which he believed any person would do. He asked Ressler to give him access to a radar gun, with which he could apprehend the Nazi UFOs, so that the Nazis could stand trial for the murders. He also handed Ressler a large amount of macaroni and cheese which he had been hoarding in his pants pockets, believing that the prison officials were in league with the Nazis and attempting to kill him.

And Ted Bundy, which I would say he fits under the idea of super-sanity.

Bundy was not "super sane." He was a mysoginistic sadist with severely stunted emotional health. The only reason Grant Morrison refers to The Joker as having "super sanity" is because he fits Morrison's idea of the next stage of sanity. That being people who accept multiple personality disorder and even relish in it. albiet within reason. However, The Joker doesn't relish in it within reason.

[kytrigger]

He's charming. Unlike most villians, he actually is likeable to a point. In the fact that he's an amazing speaker, he's an intelligent person, and he's handsome behind the clown face or even with. People are comparing him to Gacy and that's just absurd.

He's Ted Bundy in clown make-up and never takes anything seriously. The only thing he does take seriously is his deep hate for Batman.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/17/Ted_Bundy_4.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/54/Ted_Bundy_3.jpg

That's Ted Bundy, confessed to 33 murders, ten of which are unidentified, he jumped out of a two story building escaping custody, afterwards he talked his way out of being shot by a vigilante citizen, he was caught later, and then escaped jail by sawing through a metal plate leading to the ventilation system.

Crime author Ann Rule states that Eleanor's younger sister recalls an incident with the young Ted Bundy. After laying down in the Cowell's home for a nap, his aunt Julia woke to find herself surrounded by knives from the Cowell kitchen. Three-year-old Ted was standing by the bed, smiling at her.

Despite the brutality of his crimes, Bundy was frequently described as educated and charming. His personal friends and acquaintances would remember him as a handsome and articulate young man.

When Florida detectives begged Bundy to tell them where he'd dumped Kimberly Leach, Bundy said "But I'm the most cold-hearted son of a ***** you'll ever meet."

"Ted Bundy was completely sane.....Just evil."

=========

These are just a few anecdotes about Ted Bundy, but I think they completely and accurately describe how Nolan's joker should act. Charming, intelligent, the ability to be sarcastic and mean and funny all to himself, and just so happen to look like a clown.

Batman then takes away his charm through the disfigurement and his sanity drops completely off.
I wouldn't call Joker charming really. More just charismatic.

[Keyser Soze]

I just saw "The Brothers Grimm". A really entertaining performance from Heath Ledger.

[The Guard]

But you have to admit, charm is consistantly part of whatever role he takes. I think it's his most unique aspect in terms of personality and characterization.
I don't think that's ever been the case, unless the definition of charm has changed. An ATTEMPT at charm is part of The Joker's repertoire, actual charm, not so much. Intelligence is a personality trait he posesses, charm is not. In fact, a LACK of what we consider "charm" is part of what roles he tends to take. He doesn't tend to handle "social" situations well, preferring instead to let everything devolve into chaos. This is one of the things that makes The Joker endearing. In terms of social interaction, his approach is to often throws **** on a wall and hopes it will stick, and it almost never does. The incongruous fact that people FALL for his half-assed shtick (henchmen, the occasional woman or victim) despite a complete lack of charm is part of the irony surrounding the character.

He MAY be charistmatic, in his own twisted way. Not charming, though.

[The Question]

But you have to admit, charm is consistantly part of whatever role he takes. I think it's his most unique aspect in terms of personality and characterization.

I wouldn't say it's constant. He's certainly charming and charismatic some of the time, but other times he's not. Like with most aspects of The Joker, it depends on his mood.

[sasquatchs]

A hard part of TDK will be explaining how Joker maintains a group of henchman while still being unpredictable and dangerous. His schemes usually aren't that enticing to anyone but himself. Not that B89 did it particularly well but Joker immediately took over Grissom's empire, so there's some motivation to go along with his loopiness, at least for a while.

[nightwing07]

He Killed Jason Todd!
Tragic Very Tragic

[uchiha_itachi]

^ yeah, its a shame the film isn't all that lol

[itsthebatman]

I live in hope!
To be absolutely honest I was an early supporter of the gashed smile Ledger look as soon as that first spy report broke, the one about him having "grey skin and scarring".
And yet...
Pictures like that HUSH one have started me thinking again. So far I don't like the colour of the hair (puke yellow rather than the vibrant emerald it should be) and I don't like the panda eyes. I don't care if it's just a "transient" look in the film, why does the Joker's look need to "evolve"? I remember thinking about Paul Bettany in the role when his name was first mentioned, and imagining him chalk white, slicked back dark green hair, immaculately dressed in green and purple. That actor and that look were both options. We've ended up with neither.
I'm still excited about Ledger in the role and I'll think it'll be a heart-stopping performance.
But Bettany, Eccleston, Gosling.... I don't think I'll be able to stop myself from imagining them on screen instead come July next year...
The Joker has a wide variety of appearances, ranging from Michael larks muted version to Tim Sale's impossible dentistry version. Ripe for interpretation, you know.
I think it's hard to judge the hair colour because of the lighting conditons - my thought is that that short is the 'reveal shot' in the bank scene, lit from below, and won't really show us the yellow hair that seems to be evident in that pic.
I think, regardless of the actor, we would have our doubts about their ability to pull it off because how many actors get to play a role like the Joker in their career? He's pretty unique, and whoever got the gig would have to measure up to Jack anyway. I appreciate Ledger came out of left field, so didn't have the fan support other choices had, but he has the acting chops to pull it off, so I have faith he'll do a great job, and hopefully we'll all be enjoying TDK so much while watching ti we won't be thinking of alternative actors. Bad sign if we are!

[The Redux 714]

All you guys talking abotut Manson, I'm sorry, and I really don't want to start a fight here, but Manson is a *****. A total wimp. He never did anything, and is so scared of "real" sickos that he won't leave his cell. He like to pretend he's nuts.

Bundy was, and always will be, probably the most prolific killer, next to good ol' Saucy Jack. That and...honestly...Bundy just had issues with his ex-girl friend, who all his confirmed victims looked like. Plain features, nothing really outstanding about them, long dark hair, fair complection.

The Killer Clown (Gacy) had problems with .... well...young homosexual guys...which he was one, minus the young part.

BTK...I don't really know alot about him. So I can't say much. I'll have to add him to my library of serial killers.

I dunno...if ya'll have any questions about killers (famous ones), ask me. I'm not saying I'm better or anything...but I have an extensive knowledge on such matters.

I would classify the Joker, but the most inheirent flaw is the fact so many people have written him and played him to such varying degrees, I can't. Throw some stories at me, and I can draw some conclusions.

[nightwing07]

Bundy And Joker Haha
Bundy Is Way More Sadistic
Raping Women Does Joker Do This?

[The Guard]

The Joker "rapes" in his own way. Metaphorically speaking, that is.

Why would someone work for or with The Joker? Why does anyone do anything stupid or dangerous, or work with someone society deems dangerous or deviant? Money and thrills, the feeling of accomplishment or power, prestige...the usual reasons, I imagine.

I don't think you can technically "classify" The Joker, but if I had to guess off the cuff, I'd say he's completely and totally sane, a severe narcissist, a social retreatist, and a hardcore cynic. Obviously he's a mass murderer, but he's not a serial killer, per se...

[Keyser Soze]

Bundy And Joker Haha
Bundy Is Way More Sadistic
Raping Women Does Joker Do This?

No. He just cripples them strips them naked, takes photos of them, then forces the girl's dad to look at the pictures...

[nightwing07]

Guard Ur A Geek With Too Much Time
Get Out More
Ur View Is Freaky!

[donk70]

I live in hope!
To be absolutely honest I was an early supporter of the gashed smile Ledger look as soon as that first spy report broke, the one about him having "grey skin and scarring".
And yet...
Pictures like that HUSH one have started me thinking again. So far I don't like the colour of the hair (puke yellow rather than the vibrant emerald it should be) and I don't like the panda eyes. I don't care if it's just a "transient" look in the film, why does the Joker's look need to "evolve"? I remember thinking about Paul Bettany in the role when his name was first mentioned, and imagining him chalk white, slicked back dark green hair, immaculately dressed in green and purple. That actor and that look were both options. We've ended up with neither.
I'm still excited about Ledger in the role and I'll think it'll be a heart-stopping performance.
But Bettany, Eccleston, Gosling.... I don't think I'll be able to stop myself from imagining them on screen instead come July next year...
I'm with you 110%. My personal favorite for the role was Lachey Hulme as the Joker.

As for the hair, to be fair, the only thing we've seen of it is a blurry photo, so we can't really tell the true color. OTOH, the panda eyes, are a big reach, IMO. As I've said before, the Joker has had dark circles before, but these look like a Lone Ranger mask. Couple that with his Kool Aid mustache grin and the gaeshed smile and we got a rather weird interpretaion from Nolan. The Joker's look is something that does not need to be subject to different interpretations. What's next? Does he get to wear a red clown nose too?

[nightwing07]

Thanks For Telling Me Something I Already Know Lol

[Abaddon]

The Killer Clown (Gacy) had problems with .... well...young homosexual guys...which he was one, minus the young part.


Gacy's victims were straight.

[donk70]

I just saw "The Brothers Grimm". A really entertaining performance from Heath Ledger.
I saw that, but blocked everything outta my mind from it. It looked cool in the previews, though.

[Nepenthes]

The Joker isn't a composite of any of those people, and there are very few paralels between him and Satan. The Joker is unique unto himself. If you're going to compare him to any mythological figure, the closest would probably be Loki. And even then, The Joker's crazier.

I think he definitely is, if only on a very superficial level and that's what i was talking about. He's a composite of many examples of 'evil' or deviancy we can find in history or literature. Parallels just of the top of my head; Bundy, the ability to operate rationally without delusion; Manson, the ability to recruit followers; Gacy, use of clown theatrics; Zodiac, use of media and public image.

Satan is very similair. He's defined by opposition (to 'God' or Batman, chaos against order, despair/hope), was created in a 'fall from from grace', uses cunning and charm as easily as he is cruel and deceitful.

Loki on the other hand isn't so much of a malevolent creature as Satan. In Norse legend he was primarily a mischievous trickster, he didn't set out to hurt people so much as fool them or succeed in petty affairs, in fact he aided gods and men on occasion.

Complete agreement on the rest, super sanity and embracing multi-personality

I wouldn't call Joker charming really. More just charismatic.
Joker never has trouble recruiting goons. He must be able to charm to do that. He can act perfectly straight to convince goons of some reward in working with him.

[sasquatchs]

Why would someone work for or with The Joker? Why does anyone do anything stupid or dangerous, or work with someone society deems dangerous or deviant? Money and thrills, the feeling of accomplishment or power, prestige...the usual reasons, I imagine.

I can see it for the standard robbery stuff, but later he moves onto citywide terrorism, blowing up malls and mass panic. Although with the aim of undermining Batman and Dent alot of the underworld could be enticed I suppose. Not necessarily working for Joker, but by him causing a chain reaction of independent chaos.

[donk70]

This whole thread is disturbing. This is a Batman forum, not a forum for serial killer discussion.

[nightwing07]

People R Talkin Way Off This Topic
This Is Distrubing!
Joker Is Fictional Remember Bundy Aint

[The Guard]

I think he definitely is, if only on a very superficial level and that's what i was talking about. He's a composite of many examples of 'evil' or deviancy we can find in history or literature. Parallels just of the top of my head; Bundy, the ability to operate rationally without delusion; Manson, the ability to recruit followers; Gacy, use of clown theatrics; Zodiac, use of media and public image.

Thing is, the character of The Joker was around before all of those, and has had the same characteristics; if anything, he's a reflection of society's ills, period, not a composite of specific individuals.

Joker never has trouble recruiting goons. He must be able to charm to do that.

Or money. Or some other source of coercien, which he often uses. I think people here are underestimating the effect a big fat paycheck has on people's morality. Especially criminals.

[The Redux 714]

Gacy's victims were straight.

Who the hell am I thinking about then?....I coulda sword that Gacy that did that...

[nightwing07]

This Forum Is Just Plain Weird Wuts The Point Talkin Abt Rapists And There State Of Minds?

[Abaddon]

Who the hell am I thinking about then?....I coulda sword that Gacy that did that...

Dahmer maybe?:huh:

[sasquatchs]

Or money. Or some other source of coercien, which he often uses. I think people here are underestimating the effect a big fat paycheck has on people's morality. Especially criminals.

Not thinking in terms of criminal's morality, but their own skins. Working for the mob is understandable, in a way it's steady, reliable employment. What benefit is there to working with Joker except short-term gain? Depends on the characterisation but the robbers are probably freelance onetimers with little knowledge of the Joker. Or perhaps he's not even that dangerous yet, but its Batman that pushes him over the edge past merely standard crimes.

Maybe I'm thinking about it too much but for once it could be adequately dealt with

[Infinity9999x]

I saw that, but blocked everything outta my mind from it. It looked cool in the previews, though.

Hey Donk, in regards to the TAS joker we were talking about a while ago, you should watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNg5ZZfkmLM&mode=related&search=

watch episodes 4 and 5 of the Return of the Joker, it's the "last confrontation" of Batman and the Joker, and I thought it was very well done. The Joker is very dark in it, and what he does to Robin in it is very sick, yet perfect for the Joker at the same time.

edit: The flashback to the last confrontation starts more at the middle of episode 4, around the 4minute mark

[itsthebatman]

I'm with you 110%. My personal favorite for the role was Lachey Hulme as the Joker.

As for the hair, to be fair, the only thing we've seen of it is a blurry photo, so we can't really tell the true color. OTOH, the panda eyes, are a big reach, IMO. As I've said before, the Joker has had dark circles before, but these look like a Lone Ranger mask. Couple that with his Kool Aid mustache grin and the gaeshed smile and we got a rather weird interpretaion from Nolan. The Joker's look is something that does not need to be subject to different interpretations. What's next? Does he get to wear a red clown nose too?
Only on good days.

[Digital_Ashes]

Thing is, the character of The Joker was around before all of those, and has had the same characteristics; if anything, he's a reflection of society's ills, period, not a composite of specific individuals.



Or money. Or some other source of coercien, which he often uses. I think people here are underestimating the effect a big fat paycheck has on people's morality. Especially criminals.

To the people who are finding this disturbing:
It's not, we're discussing the mind of a serial killer, it's actually a major and still debated point in pyschology, because no one really knows what triggers the impulse to kill, and that is damn interesting to me, to not understand human complexes and we're at the beginning of the 21st century and we're still asking quesitons.

Anyway, The Joker is a reflection on the writers who write him. When he first debuted, he reflected the current state of culture, the idealistic murderer and crook.

Well guess what, when Nolan, Moore, Loeb are going write the most sadistic villian in Batman's rogue gallery, you can bet your bottom dollar they are going to go back into the many crimes and acts of America's most infamous killers to gather inspiration.

It's a game of one-ups manship. The idea of The Joker up until now, has been progressivly delving deeper into insanity and the crimes he commits become worse and worse, albiet (not worse than killing Jason Todd and the entire Killing Joke novel.)

My point is, as serial killers get worse and worse so will the Joker, and now, in 2007 I wonder what Nolan is going to grab his inspiration from, the old killers of the past or try to up them like Moore did on the killing joke.

[Nepenthes]

Thing is, the character of The Joker was around before all of those, and has had the same characteristics; if anything, he's a reflection of society's ills, period, not a composite of specific individuals.

True, but remember Joker really came into his own in the mid 70's around the time these types of killers first captured public imagination in a new way.

But more to the point, I don't think joker is based of these guys specifically, just that there are definite parallels. Because even if societies ills are age-old people will still use contemporary examples in reference. Think 'serial killer', or 'lunatic' or even just 'Evil'....who comes to mind for most people nowadays? (in an individual context, not as part of an ideology. Osama is a different thing there)


I don't think he's Satan, either. Even metaphorically. Because I don't see Batman as a "God" character. He's too inherently flawed to be that.

I was mainly refering to 'defined by opposition' which is an HUGE part of Joker and Satan. Joker is the mythic enemy and a complete anti-thesis to Batman, the central figure. They're all meaningless without the other. In the most simplistic terms it all comes down to Good VS Evil and you can't deny that in God/Devil and Batman/Joker. Heck, even in He-Man/Skeletor but it's remarkable how many other deep similarities there are in Devil&Joker than your usual villain nemesis.

[donk70]

To the people who are finding this disturbing:
It's not, we're discussing the mind of a serial killer, it's actually a major and still debated point in pyschology, because no one really knows what triggers the impulse to kill, and that is damn interesting to me, to not understand human complexes and we're at the beginning of the 21st century and we're still asking quesitons.

Anyway, The Joker is a reflection on the writers who write him. When he first debuted, he reflected the current state of culture, the idealistic murderer and crook.

Well guess what, when Nolan, Moore, Loeb are going write the most sadistic villian in Batman's rogue gallery, you can bet your bottom dollar they are going to go back into the many crimes and acts of America's most infamous killers to gather inspiration.

It's a game of one-ups manship. The idea of The Joker up until now, has been progressivly delving deeper into insanity and the crimes he commits become worse and worse, albiet (not worse than killing Jason Todd and the entire Killing Joke novel.)

My point is, as serial killers get worse and worse so will the Joker, and now, in 2007 I wonder what Nolan is going to grab his inspiration from, the old killers of the past or try to up them like Moore did on the killing joke.

This isn't a college campus. This is a comic book forum about fictional characters. If anything, the topic of serial killers belongs in the SHH! Community forum. Plus, this is a spoilers forum. Where's the spoiler info???

[Digital_Ashes]

Where's the spoiler information in the Dark Knight Sequel Artwork? Your point is moot, this forum is pretty much an open discussion to about The Dark Knight without having to post spoiler warnings.

And you're missing the point of the thread, It's about what inspirational is nolan getting for the joker, and we're mainly talking about serial killers and criminals of the 70's when this stuff was most prevelant.

If you're bothered by the thread, don't click on it.

[nightwing07]

Any Way Batman Begins Is Too Boring To Watch Now
Cant Wait Till Tdk

[The Question]

I think he definitely is, if only on a very superficial level and that's what i was talking about. He's a composite of many examples of 'evil' or deviancy we can find in history or literature. Parallels just of the top of my head; Bundy, the ability to operate rationally without delusion; Manson, the ability to recruit followers; Gacy, use of clown theatrics; Zodiac, use of media and public image.

I wouldn't say he's a composite of any of them. That implies that his creation was inspired by them, which it wasn't. There are some similarities, but that's as far as I'd go. Also, Gacy didn't use theatrics of any kind. He simply used the clown image to lul his victims into a false sense of security.

Satan is very similair. He's defined by opposition (to 'God' or Batman, chaos against order, despair/hope), was created in a 'fall from from grace', uses cunning and charm as easily as he is cruel and deceitful.

Satan isn't very similar at all.

1) Satan doesn't represent chaos or despair. He represents cynicism, hedonism, and selfishness. He is a reflection of humanity as seen through a mirror that hasn't been cleaned or polished in ages. He is the cynic in all of us. The romantic who's had his heart broken. While there's an element of that in The Joker, it's exicuted in a very different way.

2) The duality between The Joker and Batman and the duality between Satan and God are very different. The Joker obsesses over Batman in his own very deranged way, seeing Batman as his straight man. Satan is much more interested in distancing himself from God as much as possible.

3) The Joker is far more insane than Satan.

Loki on the other hand isn't so much of a malevolent creature as Satan. In Norse legend he was primarily a mischievous trickster, he didn't set out to hurt people so much as fool them or succeed in petty affairs, in fact he aided gods and men on occasion.

I'd say that Loki is far more malevolent than Satan. Loki murdered Balder and helped bring about the destruction of Asgard. Satan, while selfish, cruel, and manipulative, never really directly harms anyone. He simply messes with their heads, or gives them what they want, and allows them to self destruct all on their own in an ironic monkey's paw like fasion. Also, Loki's more like The Joker simply because, near the end of things, he'd gone quite mad.

[The Kid]

Who would you compare the joker vs batman to in a greek mythology sense?

[The Question]

Who would you compare the joker vs batman to in a greek mythology sense?

Nobody, really.

[The Redux 714]

Who would you compare the joker vs batman to in a greek mythology sense?
Compare them to what?

[Digital_Ashes]

The Joker is more like Satan as in Paradise Lost, which I assume you're basing your interpretation of Satan on, it depicts Satan (Lucifer, Morningstar, or any other pseudonym) as narcissistic, prideful, who defies his creator and wages war.

In the sense of personality the Joker resembles the characterization of Satan a lot, in terms of action not a lot. Satan's tempting of Adam and Eve is much a like to The Joker's attempt to cast the world down with him.

Loki on the other hand was just a trickster, in the stories he would usually go back on his tricks and help the god's out. Loki's killing of Balder is more through manipulation instead of hands-on, which is very un-joker like.

This is straying off topic though.

[Digital_Ashes]

this message was deleted at the request of the original poster.

[Keyser Soze]

In before teh ban~!

[The Redux 714]

Spammer...I see...

I guess it time that the Sons of Batman do they're thing...

[360sculptguy]

http://www.minimus.biz/images/C02-0253501-8100bg.jpg

[The Redux 714]

If I were talking about you as though you can't read, I'd say some much worse things, however the mods CAN READ, something that you need to learn.

BTW, if you're gonna wreak havoc, do it in a way that doesn't point right to you. An amature mistake...but I'd expect nothing less...

[Keyser Soze]

im not doin that sons of batman thing....and stop talkin about me like i cant read......i aint getin banned im a lone wolf

When it comes to message boards, "lone wolf" is a mild annoyance with delusions of grandeur.

Nice to see that "lone wolf" things going so well for you, though...:cwink:

[The Kid]

Nobody, really.

fine, I can think of a few but who cares.

Has anyone mentioned jack the ripper yet? I'm not reading through all these pages though it's probably interesting...

[The Redux 714]

yeah, I did. But, it is straying far off topic....

[donk70]

Where's the spoiler information in the Dark Knight Sequel Artwork? Your point is moot, this forum is pretty much an open discussion to about The Dark Knight without having to post spoiler warnings.

And you're missing the point of the thread, It's about what inspirational is nolan getting for the joker, and we're mainly talking about serial killers and criminals of the 70's when this stuff was most prevelant.

If you're bothered by the thread, don't click on it.
Ya know, I'll click whatever I want, Chief.

Notice that this section does say (spoiler)

Kk thankshaveaniceday

[Nepenthes]

I wouldn't say he's a composite of any of them. That implies that his creation was inspired by them, which it wasn't. There are some similarities, but that's as far as I'd go. Also, Gacy didn't use theatrics of any kind. He simply used the clown image to lul his victims into a false sense of security.

I explained what I meant here to Guard ^.

1) Satan doesn't represent chaos or despair. He represents cynicism, hedonism, and selfishness. He is a reflection of humanity as seen through a mirror that hasn't been cleaned or polished in ages. He is the cynic in all of us. The romantic who's had his heart broken. While there's an element of that in The Joker, it's exicuted in a very different way.

2) The duality between The Joker and Batman and the duality between Satan and God are very different. The Joker obsesses over Batman in his own very deranged way, seeing Batman as his straight man. Satan is much more interested in distancing himself from God as much as possible.

3) The Joker is far more insane than Satan.

1. I don't see a major difference, sure they're not carbon copies but Joker is still very similar to what you just described. I've always associated the Joker with cynicism, hedonism and a broken romantic since i read TKJ and in many aspects Satan DOES lead people to chaos and despair. He undermines Gods order and benevolence.

2. If Satan was interested in distancing himself from God then he wouldn't meddle in his creation. He'd just sit there and sulk but he doesn't, he acts out, as does the Joker who could've dealt with his fate alone but decides quite deliberately to bring others with him. Sometimes Satan acts simply because it pleases himself, sometimes it's to 'prove a point' to his foe or to humanity, depending on what you read. Joker shares both traits.

If we wanna be this specific have to acknowledge that Satan is a pretty damn broad concept. I'm just going of how I judge him as commonly perceived by most people determined by a lifetime of exposure to different things. It's gonna be different things to different people.

3. True, I guess. on the outward though. I like to think Joker isn't actually insane. He either comes across that way or it's a deliberate part of his act. The super-sanity revolving personalities thing I tie into Satans own ability as a changeling, appearing in different guises for whatever purpose he requires (or whatever treatment the concept requires for story).


I'd say that Loki is far more malevolent than Satan. Loki murdered Balder and helped bring about the destruction of Asgard. Satan, while selfish, cruel, and manipulative, never really directly harms anyone. He simply messes with their heads, or gives them what they want, and allows them to self destruct all on their own in an ironic monkey's paw like fasion. Also, Loki's more like The Joker simply because, near the end of things, he'd gone quite mad.Again like Satan Loki's treatment varies in different myths. and I'm sure many people will believe that Satan would also murder gods or angels if he could. True he rarely ever harms anyone directly though.


***
But really the thing is, most people don't think about Loki anymore. Both are very similair to Joker but Satan is by far the most readily accessible parallel. Too me that counts for alot. Even if it isn't blatantly recognized the connection is made on some deep symbolic or even subconscious level, the laughing grin, the ecstatic cruelty, heck even the bone structure are archetypal Satan imagery. Loki may share these things and many others, but he just doesn't contend with Satan in the popular mind, and to me what people perceive is what IS, what makes it true.

[Keyser Soze]

Wait...we have pages and pages of off-topic flaming and repetitive bickering over The Joker's lips, and people start complaining when discussion turns to interesting, in-depth analysis of The Joker's mindset, and possible real-life equivalents?

[Closerframe]

The Joker is the true Anti-Christ

[The Question]

1. I don't see a major difference. Sure they're not carbon copies but Joker is still very similar to what you just described. I've always associated the Joker with cynicism, hedonism and a broken romantic since i read TKJ, and in many aspects Satan DOES lead people to chaos and despair. He undermines Gods order and benevolence.

The Joker doesn't lead people to chaos and despair. He causes it sometimes, but that's not the same thing. While there are some similarities, they're exicuted very differently.

2. If Satan was interested in distancing himself from God then he wouldn't meddle in his creation. He'd just sit there and sulk but he doesn't, he acts out. As does the Joker who could've dealt with is fate alone but decides quite deliberately to work against. Sometimes Satan acts simply because it pleases himself, sometimes it's to 'prove a point' to his foe or to humanity, depends on what you read. Joker shares both traits.

I'm sorry, I just don't see it. They're motivations, p[ersonalities, and levels of sanity are completely different. There are some similarities between how The Joker sometimes behaives and how Satan sometimes behaives. But they're not very similar.

If we wanna be this specific have to acknowledge that Satan is a damn broad concept. I'm just going of how I judge him as commonly perceived by most people, determined by a lifetime of exposure to different things. It's gonna be different things to different people.

True.

3. True, I guess. on the outward though. I like to think Joker isn't actually insane. He either comes across that way or it's a deliberate part of his act. The super-sanity revolving personalities thing I tie into Satans own ability as a changeling, appearing in different guises for whatever purpose he requires (or whatever treatment the concept requires for story).

But the revolving personalities thing pretty clearly shows that he is neither clinically or legally sane. Honestly, I'm sure that Satan would see The Joker as beneath him. Simply a pathetic pawn to be used, or ignored.

Again like Satan Loki's treatment varies in different myths. and I'm sure many people will believe that Satan would also murder gods or angels if he could. True he rarely ever harms anyone directly though.

Honestly, I'd think that Satan would see casual murder as somewhat beneath him.

But really the thing is, most people don't think about Loki anymore. Both are very similair to Joker but Satan is by far the most readily accessible parallel. Too me that counts for alot. Even if it isn't recognized blatantly the connection is made on some deep symbolic or even subconscious level, the laughing grin, the ecstatic cruelty, heck even the bone structure are archetypal Satan imagery. Loki may share these things and many others, but he just doesn't contend with Satan in the popular mind, and to me what people perceive is what IS, what makes it true.

But Loki is more similar. So what if more people are aware of Satan? That doesn't make him more similar. And Loki is closer to The Joker with the laughing grin, lanky bone structure, and ecstatic cruelty.

[BubbaGump]

Nevermind. Forgot what I quoted was a lot of pages back. Move along now.

[Bandyt]

I disagree with earlier statings that Joker is like Ted Bundy. Bundy wasn't insane, just evil. Joker in himself is utterly insane to the most extreme levels that he could almost be seen as sane. Ted was just Evil. The Joker is Evil and Insane.

[jdsolno7]

This is my first post on the hype and I wanted to see what you all thought about this pic I photoshopped of ledger. Its my first attempt at using photoshop so it isn't the greatest, but it does seem to show some promise as to how he'll look in the movie.

http://server6.pictiger.com/img/229652/picture-hosting/jokermanip-3--.jpg

[Rezzo]

This is my first post on the hype and I wanted to see what you all thought about this pic I photoshopped of ledger. Its my first attempt at using photoshop so it isn't the greatest, but it does seem to show some promise as to how he'll look in the movie.

http://server6.pictiger.com/img/229652/picture-hosting/jokermanip-3--.jpg

Um that´s not Heath Ledger

[Bond]

This is my first post on the hype and I wanted to see what you all thought about this pic I photoshopped of ledger. Its my first attempt at using photoshop so it isn't the greatest, but it does seem to show some promise as to how he'll look in the movie.

http://server6.pictiger.com/img/229652/picture-hosting/jokermanip-3--.jpg
That's the perfect example of Ledger's "Joker Smile".

Good job on the manip, too.

And welcome to the Hype! (I always wanted to say that...)

[jdsolno7]

Um that´s not Heath Ledger

it is ledger. i googled wallpapers of him and this is one that i found.

http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/celebsm/heathledger/heath_ledger_7.jpg


i got rid of the hat and mirrored the left half of his face to see what the full thing could look like. i love the fact that its him, but you have to look closely to tell. its all in the eyes.

and thanks mr. bond. i appreciate it

[Bandyt]

Face is a bit more warped than his normal face, Not all faces are symmetrical.

[The Guard]

Not thinking in terms of criminal's morality, but their own skins. Working for the mob is understandable, in a way it's steady, reliable employment. What benefit is there to working with Joker except short-term gain?

Exactly. One major motivation of criminals is that they often believe that short-term gains outweight the long-term risks. Look at drug dealers for a perfect example of this.

Depends on the characterisation but the robbers are probably freelance onetimers with little knowledge of the Joker.

They are rarely portrayed that way in the comics. It'd be difficult not to know you were working for such a man. On film, maybe that could be the case.

True, but remember Joker really came into his own in the mid 70's around the time these types of killers first captured public imagination in a new way.

Elaborate. How did Joker "come into his own" during the 70's?

I was mainly refering to 'defined by opposition' which is an HUGE part of Joker and Satan.

Then aren't we talking about something far simpler, a good VS evil paralell. Is everyone we perceive evil to a good force a "satanic" metaphor?

1) Satan doesn't represent chaos or despair. He represents cynicism, hedonism, and selfishness. He is a reflection of humanity as seen through a mirror that hasn't been cleaned or polished in ages. He is the cynic in all of us. The romantic who's had his heart broken. While there's an element of that in The Joker, it's exicuted in a very different way.

2) The duality between The Joker and Batman and the duality between Satan and God are very different. The Joker obsesses over Batman in his own very deranged way, seeing Batman as his straight man. Satan is much more interested in distancing himself from God as much as possible.

3) The Joker is far more insane than Satan.

Agreed. Although, Satan seems to think he can overthrow God, that he is more powerful, etc, which might be defined as insane.

In the sense of personality the Joker resembles the characterization of Satan a lot, in terms of action not a lot. Satan's tempting of Adam and Eve is much a like to The Joker's attempt to cast the world down with him.

But The Joker doesn't tempt people. He gives them no choice in the matter at all.

[Jekyll Faygo]

[quote=jdsolno7;11788672]it is ledger. i googled wallpapers of him and this is one that i found.

http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/celebsm/heathledger/heath_ledger_7.jpg


It seems as though you stumbled across a Joseph Gordon-Levitt wallpaper.

[FatA$$]

sooo yeah the joker is gonna be pretty cool in the new movie sux that we have to wait a year

[Bandyt]

I wonder if they'll give him black fingernails...

[Untilteld]

eww^ ha ha

[Untilteld]

I just saw "The Brothers Grimm". A really entertaining performance from Heath Ledger.

Although the movie was terrible.:woot:

[Keyser Soze]

Although the movie was terrible.:woot:

Yeah, it was terrible. But Heath Ledger was good in it.

You could say the same thing about "Monster's Ball"....

[itsthebatman]

Yeah, it was terrible. But Heath Ledger was good in it.

You could say the same thing about "Monster's Ball"....
Monster's Ball wasn't bad. Enjoyed it when I saw it, though I wouldn't watch it again.

[Showtime]

Never saw it, never will.

[Keyser Soze]

Halle Berry was the worst thing in "Monster's Ball". Her cringe-worthy over-acting put me off the entire film. I have no idea how she won the Oscar for that performance.

[dark_b]

Never saw it, never will.why not?

[Showtime]

It looks like garbage. I think Halle Berry is a subpar actress, the only thing that would drag me to rent it, would be BB Thorton.

[itsthebatman]

Halle Berry was the worst thing in "Monster's Ball". Her cringe-worthy over-acting put me off the entire film. I have no idea how she won the Oscar for that performance.
Halle berry's chest was the best thing in it. Her b00bs should have won an Oscar.

[The Guard]

Halle Berry was the worst thing in "Monster's Ball". Her cringe-worthy over-acting put me off the entire film. I have no idea how she won the Oscar for that performance.

I thought Billy Bob Thornton was fantastic in the movie. The story concept is pretty good, and it was executed fairly well. I'm pretty sure Halle won the Oscar for her "brave portrayal of a black woman having sex with a white man who killed her husband". I never thought her scenes were that impressive, but she did have three, count them, three, sex scenes. Hmm...

[Vile]

She won the Oscar because Thornton filled her out like an application. =)

[itsthebatman]

Man, are we off-topic. Who here likes the Joker?

[Cowleen]

I definitly do. I would have to say he's my favorite villan. If there is a such thing. Sounds like an oxymoron...

[donk70]

It's hard to decide who who's a better villain: The Joker or Darth Vader

[itsthebatman]

Good one, donk70. Both truly are classic villains. Damnit, i can't make my mind up now.

[donk70]

Good one, donk70. Both truly are classic villains. Damnit, i can't make my mind up now.
My God, are you agreeing with me?

[itsthebatman]

AFI list of heroes and villains:
http://www.afi.com/tvevents/100years/handv.aspx
Vader no 3, Joker (B89) no 45.
Amon Goeth and Noah Cross dod it for me, because they are so human, so real, and so terrifying.

[itsthebatman]

My God, are you agreeing with me?
I know, I'm scared too.

[Crook]

Looking at that list, sounds about right. I love ol' Jack (coolest actor ever), but Vader did so much with actually doing so little. James Earl Jones made Vader his own. What is it about black people's voices that are so powerful and enthralling? :o

[Cowleen]

. What is it about black people's voices that are so powerful and enthralling? :o


I dont thinkits his race that changes his voice, its the sheer size of the man.

[Cowleen]

I prefered the Joker beacause he still had a personality. Darth is just intimdating. ( In his defence however, I was never a big SW fan.)

[Crook]

For chuckles I like to pop in Episode 1, just to see the future "Galactic Ruler" being reduced to this tiny and adorable 8 year old who has a crush on his nanny aka soon-to-be future wife. :o

[Cowleen]

Yeah, that kid was cute. However, lest we forget JARJAR?

[Keyser Soze]

I'll take The Joker over Darth Vader any day of the week. Unless we get a prequel trilogy called "Joker: The Whiny Emo Teen Biatch Saga". Then that might even the playing field a little...:woot:

[Cowleen]

I'll take The Joker over Darth Vader any day of the week. Unless we get a prequel trilogy called "Joker: The Whiny Emo Teen Biatch Saga". Then that might even the playing field a little...:woot:


I just snorted outloud at work I was laughing so hard. Thanks a lot! :cwink:

[Eros]

Darth Vader is still King!

[Keyser Soze]

I just snorted outloud at work I was laughing so hard. Thanks a lot! :cwink:

HAHA! You're welcome! :oldrazz:

This may make you snort some more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qJPyAztmas

[Crook]

AHAHAHA, I remember watching that a while back. Soooo glad they're making a series out of it. :up:

[Cowleen]

OMG. funniest. youtube. ever.

[The Last Meatbag]

So how do you guys want the Joker's voice to sound?

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

As long as he is creepy..and his laugh is spot on..i couldn't care less.

[AndrewGilkison]

Whatever he sounds like, it should reflect the take they are doing on the character, as well as his look. If they are trying to make him a scary monster of a theatical criminal, then his voice should be able to send shivers down the spine as well as sounding grand and operatic.

[Cowleen]

I agree^. Heath Ledger's voice is so malliable. Deep and drawly in Brokeback, High and whiney in 10 things. If he even uses his natural accent it could be fun. We dont know what kind of backstory they are using in this film yet do we?

[The Last Meatbag]

Well, I think Heath has a good voice. However, it would sound too goofy if he tries to pull off the shrill high pitched Joker from TAS and other depictions.

I'd like him to keep it how it normally sounds, and I'd like him to have a booming dramatic laugh..

[Cowleen]

Well, I think Heath has a good voice. However, it would sound too goofy if he tries to pull off the shrill high pitched Joker from TAS and other depictions.

I'd like him to keep it how it normally sounds, and I'd like him to have a booming dramatic laugh..


I must be tired, I thought that said decepticons.....:trans:

[The Last Meatbag]

I almost thought it did too :(

[Cowleen]

maybe we are rabid for more than one movie !

[breyfogle_rules]

Ok. Time to pick up this thread. Lets discuss Jett's report of...

* A big "evacuation" scene will be shot. People will filmed as if they are having to leave town and leave in a hurry.

I'm personally psyched about this. Mr. J is going to do something of MAJOR scope and I couldnt be more pleased. What worries me is whether or not they'll play it too close to the contaminated water crisis in BB. Weaponized gas AND liquid has already been used as a trademark by Scarecrow.

What do you guys think Jokers up to?

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

he's going to blow up the city,

[breyfogle_rules]

^^Aw hell naw!

[itsthebatman]

Ok. Time to pick up this thread. Lets discuss Jett's report of...

* A big "evacuation" scene will be shot. People will filmed as if they are having to leave town and leave in a hurry.

I'm personally psyched about this. Mr. J is going to do something of MAJOR scope and I couldnt be more pleased. What worries me is whether or not they'll play it too close to the contaminated water crisis in BB. Weaponized gas AND liquid has already been used as a trademark by Scarecrow.

What do you guys think Jokers up to?
A mix of Soft Targets and Laughing Fish. Public announcements that he is going to kill, broadcast over TV and radio, saying when he will kill, but not who or where. That would create citywide panic, wouldn't it?
It would be more interesting than just another water/gas crisis.

[dark_b]

just f... up the city J.

[C. Lee]

he's going to blow up the city,

Normally I would say that the Joker would be more apt to gas them....but that was done in BB....so the bombing thing is possible.

[dark_b]

A mix of Soft Targets and Laughing Fish. Public announcements that he is going to kill, broadcast over TV and radio, saying when he will kill, but not who or where. That would create citywide panic, wouldn't it?
It would be more interesting than just another water/gas crisis.but if he says that he will kill people he would have to do something big before so that people would take him serious right?

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

Normally I would say that the Joker would be more apt to gas them....but that was done in BB....so the bombing thing is possible.

It was the only thing i could think of of the top of my head, i mean as you said the gas thing has been done, and unless he decides to get giant balloons, A bomb (nuke) is the only answer.

[itsthebatman]

but if he says that he will kill people he would have to do something big before so that people would take him serious right?
He just has to kill someone, or blow up a bunch of people, when he says he will, and then go immediately on TV claiming it. people would take him pretty damn seriously then, wouldn't they?

[dark_b]

He just has to kill someone, or blow up a bunch of people, when he says he will, and then go immediately on TV claiming it. people would take him pretty damn seriously then, wouldn't they?
let me see if i understand you right. joker kills ONE guy and than everyone is scared that he will kill people in the city so tehy run away?

[itsthebatman]

It was the only thing i could think of of the top of my head, i mean as you said the gas thing has been done, and unless he decides to get giant balloons, A bomb (nuke) is the only answer.
If that's the case, then we need Jack Bauer. Get him on the phone now!
Which brings up that point... sometimes, smaller is better. Series 1 of 24, focussing on an asaassination attempt on a presidential candiadte, was so much more enthralling than series 6, with nukes, Russians, Chinese and Islamic terrorists all over the place.

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

If that's the case, then we need Jack Bauer. Get him on the phone now!
Which brings up that point... sometimes, smaller is better. Series 1 of 24, focussing on an asaassination attempt on a presidential candiadte, was so much more enthralling than series 6, with nukes, Russians, Chinese and Islamic terrorists all over the place.

I loved every day of 24..and this latest one has been maybe the best yet.

24 FOREVER!!!

[itsthebatman]

let me see if i understand you right. joker kills ONE guy and than everyone is scared that he will kill people in the city so tehy run away?
The Mayor. Or the Commish. Someone untouchable. And his entourage. And then, announces he will continue to kill someone every 6 hours (or whatever). To what end? I don't know.

[Motown Marvel]

i will be sorely annoyed if they go for ANOTHER destroy all of gotham sort of scheme. its been done in practically every batman movie.

[itsthebatman]

I loved every day of 24..and this latest one has been maybe the best yet.

24 FOREVER!!!
And this is where you and I diverge. I got bored halfway through this series, couldn't watch it anymore.
http://www.duffgardens.net/content/editorials/img/shark.gif

[breyfogle_rules]

^^ That would certainly be in keeping with the Batman #1 as source

[breyfogle_rules]

I thought a "Jack Bauer" was when you farted under the covers, then pulled them over your girlfriend's head.

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

And this is where you and I diverge. I got bored halfway through this series, couldn't watch it anymore.
http://www.duffgardens.net/content/editorials/img/shark.gif

then you missed out.

[itsthebatman]

^^ That would certainly be in keeping with the Batman #1 as source
That's the idea. I'm trying to think of what they can use from that story that would cause a citywide alert. What are your thoughts?

[dark_b]

The Mayor. Or the Commish. Someone untouchable. And his entourage. And then, announces he will continue to kill someone every 6 hours (or whatever). To what end? I don't know.i understand now.
it couuld work

[Nepenthes]

I thought a "Jack Bauer" was when you farted under the covers, then pulled them over your girlfriend's head.

lol wtf? I'd like to hear the logic behind that one.

[Cowleen]

I thought a "Jack Bauer" was when you farted under the covers, then pulled them over your girlfriend's head.


Thats a dutch oven.