The Official Mighty Avengers Thread

[TheCorpulent1]

Damn, I thought the same thing when I read it. I can't believe I've fallen so far. :(

[Franklin Richards]

Yeah. You guys are great.


Anywho... here's who Slott will prolly bring back.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/AuntPetunia/Fantastic%20Four/Comic%20Scans/Egghead.jpg

:thing: :doom: :thing:

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, Egghead was basically Hank Pym's only real nemesis. Ultron is vastly superior, but he could easily be viewed as more of an Avengers villain. If he wants to portray Hank as more than the one-note punchline he's become under Bendis and others, Egghead would be a good place to start.

[Dread]

Yea and Verily!





*Comment*
It is a good thing that you can point out NO ONE having an issue with Slott writing for individuals and groups,... And no matter what book they put him on,... nobody complains - or based on his previous work, People are willing to wait and see.


I am curious as to what he will be allowed to do with Mighty Avengers,...
(key word - "Allowed")

Having been blindsided with the realization that writers can have their ideas trashed or deconstructed by the plans of the senior who has a view of how he wants things to be, (Do I really have to list examples?) , I'm hoping that Dan is being put into place to reintergrate the three Avengers teams into one,..





And hopefully do a few GLA one shots when he gets bored.

V.

Or time allows; his "comfort zone" is about 2 monthly titles, give or take. Least with solo writing chores. I imagine the ASM schedule requires him to turn in 3 months of work within a short time frame when it is "his" arc.

Damn, I thought the same thing when I read it. I can't believe I've fallen so far. :(

Don't worry, I thought that too.

Yeah. You guys are great.


Anywho... here's who Slott will prolly bring back.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/AuntPetunia/Fantastic%20Four/Comic%20Scans/Egghead.jpg

:thing: :doom: :thing:

I mentioned in a previous post that MA would be a good place for Slott to do a "search for Henry Pym" story if he wanted.

As for Egghead, he was pretty stupid, and I don't miss him. Every time I would hear the name, I'd think of Vincent Price slugging it out with Adam West. :p

[moraldeficiency]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18386

When Marvel announced at last month’s Diamond Retailers Summit that Brian Michel Bendis would be leaving “Mighty Avengers,” speculation was rampant as to who would replace him. When it was announced at the Baltimore Comic-Con that Dan Slott would be the new writer starting in January, fans of the “Avengers: The Initiative” and “Amazing Spider-Man” scribe jumped for joy.

In a way few can match, Dan Slott is intimately familiar with nearly every corner of the Marvel Universe, and you’d be hard-pressed to find someone with more appreciation for Avengers legacy and lore. But while Slott can’t talk about the new team’s roster or the Marvel Universe’s status quo book following Secret Invasion he was happy to sit down with CBR News to talk about about his favorite Avengers stories, what the team means to him, and why this book just might be the one to smooth the ruffled feathers of those fans who have been unhappy with the departure from Avengers tradition seen since 2004’s “Avengers Disassembled.”

Story continues below

CBR: Is “Mighty Avengers” your dream job? Has Marvel given you the keys to the Ferrari?

With “Mighty Avengers” or “Amazing Spider-Man”? Who’s your favorite child? I’ve always gravitated more toward the Marvel heroes side of the Marvel Universe rather than say, the X-Men. So, yeah. I have such a fondness for all the classic Avengers lineups. My favorite characters are always going to be Spider-Man, The Thing, Doctor Doom, She-Hulk, Moon Knight. But I always liked getting the other superheroes together as a team. When I was a kid, I always liked reading The Avengers more than Captain America or Iron Man. I liked that you got everybody there.

"Mighty Avengers" Volume 1 on sale now

What Avengers team did you grow up with?

One of the first issues I ever bought with my own hard-earned dough was “Avengers” #141, with one of the first appearances of the Squadron Supreme. In the next issue, they were hanging out with the Two-Gun Kid. So it was [writer Steve] Engleheart and [artist] George Perez [on the title]. This is around “Serpent Crown” and I was there all the way through #200, where you had the stuff with Ms. Marvel and Immortus and you had guys like [artist] John Byrne and [writer Roger] Stern [on the title]. One of the first issues I ever bought was when Hellcat joined the team, the cover where she’s jumping at you.

Did you read the classic, earlier Avengers stories when you were growing up?

A lot of those stories I had to read in reprints but back then Marvel was really good about putting out reprint books with stuff like “Avengers Triple Action.” I remember when it was “Cap’s Kooky Quartet.” It took me a long time before I got to read some of the really original run, though. Cap doesn’t join until issue #4, so in my mind it was the classic guys: it was Thor, Cap and Iron Man. But there was also a history to the book; characters like The Vision and Scarlet Witch. They were the characters that stuff happened to. Because Cap, Thor and Iron Man have their own books and if something big was going to happen to them it would happen over there.

With the exception of that first shake-up in “Avengers” #16, where most of the original team left, the Avengers haven’t seen as many major roster changes in their whole history as they have since Brian Bendis took over the franchise.

But every now and then you would get these massive shake-ups. There would be a whole issue dedicated to the new roster, or as stories would go along, one or two characters would bleed out and a couple of new characters would move in. In some issues you’d have gradual changes, in some you’d have all out shake-ups. Which were great. Everyone remembers that issue with Gyrich at the table telling everybody, “Only seven of you get to remain.”

"Mighty Avengers" Volume 2 on sale now

Are The Avengers a team with whom anything can happen or is there something in your mind that’s at the core of what The Avengers should be?

After “Avengers Disassembled,” Brian Michael Bendis put together that great new team with all the heavy hitters. I felt it was a lot like what Grant Morrison did with “JLA.” Here are the brightest stars in the DC or Marvel Universes and they’re your Justice League, they’re your Avengers. Before that, for years you’d have scenes where Spider-Man would want to be an Avenger and the Avengers would go, “Oh, we wouldn’t take you.” Or issues where The Avengers would ask him and he’d say, “I’m a loner. I can’t do that.” And the same thing for Wolverine. There used to be a “no killers” clause.

So a lot of old-timey fans like me kind of bristled when Spider-Man and Wolverine became Avengers. It was one thing for years to have Spider-Man as a “reserve Avenger” and another thing to think of him as being one of the guys hanging around the mansion that Jarvis would bring tea and crumpets to.

That said, when you look at “New Avengers,” there’s no book that sets the tone for the Marvel Universe more than the amazing stuff Bendis is doing. It’s must-reading. You’ve got to see what Bendis is going to do next. And I don’t think that’s ever going to change. That’s what “New Avengers” is. If you want to follow the Marvel Universe, you better be reading this book.

What I’d like “Mighty Avengers” to be is the “Avenger-iest” Avengers book out there. If you’re someone like me and you’re about this old school legacy: Jarvis and the Quinn Jet being right and what costume Hank wears and what name he calls himself this week. If you’re one of those kind of guys, you’ll really dig this take on “Mighty Avengers.”

While you can’t yet tell us who is on the team, was there anyone you wanted for the new Mighty Avengers that you couldn’t get?

"Mighty Avengers" Volume 3 on sale in December

Oh, there’s always going to be guys you want and can’t get. When you’re a fan and you talk about this stuff like you’re talking about Fantasy Football Leagues, you pick your perfect Avengers team. When you’re a writer working in the Marvel Universe, you can’t just go through your handbook and pick who you want. It’s not like you’re in the candy store. People have plans. They’re doing things and you have to respect what this writer is doing in this killer run of his book.

I made some phone calls. I called up some guys. I did my audio version of the puppy dog eyes and said, “Can I have this guy to be in the Avengers? Please. I’ll be so good to him!” And they said, “No.” So, were there some denials? Yes. But at the end of the day I look at this lineup and I thin, “This is an Avenger-y Avengers lineup.”

I can’t tell you who I’m not getting because that would give away the roster. I can’t give away anyone else’s roster. I can’t give away my roster yet. Not until after “Secret Invasion” #8 comes out, and oh boy you better pick up “Secret Invasion” #8!

Have you found a backdoor to seeing some of the characters you want, perhaps in the form of guest stars?

Yeah. We’re going to have guest-stars. Anybody that we’re not getting in this team with a strong Avengers legacy is fair game. We’re going to try to have constant guest-stars in the book. I’ll tell you right now — I’m not getting Hank McCoy. He’s an Astonishing X-Man. That’s one guy I’ll tell you I’m not getting. In my heart of hearts, I’d love to have The Beast on the team. I’d kill for it. He’s such a lynchpin of the Marvel Universe with the X-Men and New Defenders and of course, the way I met him, as an Avenger.

Also by Dan Slott, "Avengers: The Initiative' Volume 1, on sale now

So many characters became parts of The Avengers legacy. There were characters that you almost felt like were being forced on The Avengers — and this is not saying they’re bad characters — but it felt like a relative dropping by to crash at your house and then they don’t leave. Like Silver-Claw or Gilgamesh or Triathlon, who I’ve been having a lot of fun with as the new 3-D Man. But a lot of these guys felt like tack-ons. Even The Falcon felt like a tack-on. The Government literally forced him onto the team, into Hawkeye’s old spot. So he did feel like an outsider. But nowadays we look at that and say, “Yeah, Falcon. Falcon’s an Avenger. Sure.”

You’re known as a writer deeply familiar with the history of the Marvel Universe. How much homework did you have to do for “Mighty Avengers?”

When I’m working on something, I constantly go back and re-read a lot of the old stuff. I’m at the point now where I’ve re-read so many of the Spider-Man stories over and over and over again and grew up reading them that I really don’t have to pick up another Spider-Man book when I’m scripting [“Amazing Spider-Man”]. It’s kind of like in my DNA now. It was that way with She-Hulk too. I can be a little weak on my Avengers lore from time to time. So I’m going back and I’m re-reading the run. Just last night I re-read “Avengers” #1-4 again. I jump around, but day-by-day I’m working my way through the whole history of The Avengers.

Besides the focus on the legacy of the team, how might your “Mighty Avengers” run be different from what Brian Michael Bendis has done with the title? Are you keeping thought-balloons, for instance?

I like the experiment that Bendis was doing with thought-balloons. To me, it’s like that episode of “Buffy” where she can read people’s minds. Whenever she was reading Cordelia’s mind, Cordelia said exactly what she was thinking. To me, a lot of what Brian was playing with was that. Sometimes it would juxtapose, but there was a certain flavor and experiment Bendis was trying with his thought balloons. Thought balloons are a very useful tool. I’m using them in “The Initiative” right now and I don’t think anyone’s noticing. When Bendis made that huge announcement that he was bringing back thought balloons, I was thinking, “Yeah, you know what? I’ve been doing it for years on ‘She-Hulk.’” We were doing little yellow boxes and thought balloons! It would just help if other people had read them. [laughs]

Also by Dan Slott, "Avengers: The Initiative' Volume 2, on sale now

How else might your “Mighty Avengers” stand out from what’s gone before? Some might expect a more light-hearted tone given your previous work.

I don’t want to say light-hearted. There will be an emphasis on adventure. There will be an emphasis on using Avengers villains. I think Brian uses the whole Marvel Universe tapestry and I think we’re going to focus on this being an Avengers book where you’ll maybe see guys like Graviton or Count Nefaria or Kang. Guys that are Avengers villains to the core.

What’s it been like working with series artist Khoi Pham?

It is awesome! There’s not going to be an issue of “Mighty Avengers” in December. There’s a skip month and we start up in January. But what you will have in December, when they declassify all those solicits, you’re going to get a special we can’t tell you about. But it will focus on one of the guys I have mentioned will be in the roster — Jocasta. As well as another character. I’d like people to check that out because it’s the first time you’ll see Khoi and I working together. So much fun.

[moraldeficiency]

So what we know:

Jocosta's on the team.
The Beast is not nor will he be used. (that sucks)
Jarvis and Original Hank Pym appear to be alive and seem to be probably to be on the team.
Hey actual avengers villians (other than transgendered ultron) are going to be in an avengers book (doesn't this contradict the all ninjas all the time, mandate).
This is about to become the best avengers book.

[TheCorpulent1]

That sounds pretty awesome. I could've done without all the "you better be reading Bendis 'cause all his crap is super-important!" stuff, since I follow the Marvel universe just fine without reading many of his comics, but the actual bits about Mighty Avengers sound interesting. An emphasis on old-school Avengers is exactly what I want from an Avengers comic, especially since I've been re-reading some older Avengers issues lately. Jocasta's kind of a weird pick, but she's about as steeped in Avengers lore as you can get, so I'm looking forward to what Slott does with her.

[moraldeficiency]

I get why he made the bendis comic, the man has been writing a large part of the current happening in the MU (whether we like them or not, the influence is definately there). Plus it's just bad buisness to insult a fellow writer.

Jocosta I'm getting more and more interested in. It seems an odd choice but if Slott can getting me into triathlon/3D Man then I'm sure we'll get something cool here. A female vision with more personality if you will, and written well that would be pretty kick ass.

Good to know Jarvis isn't dead.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm nt saying he should've insulted anyone, but I could do without the glowing endorsement of everything Bendis.

Jarvis' return will be welcome. Hopefully Slott brings the real Hank Pym back and makes him pretty much anything other than Yellowjacket, too.

[moraldeficiency]

I'm nt saying he should've insulted anyone, but I could do without the glowing endorsement of everything Bendis.

Jarvis' return will be welcome. Hopefully Slott brings the real Hank Pym back and makes him pretty much anything other than Yellowjacket, too.

eh, way I figure slott would have to be on bendis' good side if he want's more characters to play with.

It seems that way with Hank, I bet Slott rebuilds the character and might even make him a hero again. Him and Jocosta should make for interesting conversations right off the bat.

[UK_Stu]

Ok, I'm liking the sound of this. I think Slott likes the same era of Avengers as me, so I'll be picking this up

[Dread]

As usual, Dan Slott manages to say all the right things in an interview. Yeah, I could have done without all the Bendis gushing, but when do you expect? He's Marvel's #1 writer on their #1 book. Developing a healthy relationship with him and even liking his work is probably a good thing if you're going to be working at Marvel, especially in Slott's position where he's moving from that "cool little D-List book guy" into a guy on A-List books and attending creator summits. It's taboo to speak ill of fellow professionals, even sometimes after one leaves the company.

I did sort of snicker when Slott praises the NA roster as the heavy hitters of the MU. Spider-Man and Wolverine? Yes. When they had Iron Man, Ms. Marvel, and Cap on the team too? Sure. But Luke Cage? Spider-Woman? Echo? No way. Iron Man and Cap haven't been on the team for ages now. It's the book that drives the line, and sells well enough to probably cover for a few books that tank, but of course opinions will vary. Still, it is an important book; I consider it Marvel's Primer.

That said, Slott sounds like he wants to deliver the book that hasn't been around for a while now, a book that taps into that Avengers history as something to be embraced, rather than treated with obnoxious disdain. It sounds like Slott can't picture the Avengers without Hank or Jarvis, which means if he gets the chance to revive both from Skrull incubation tubes, he will. He also is honest about not being able to get some characters due to editors. It is kind of a shame he couldn't land Beast. So what that he's an X-Man? So is Wolverine and he's in 5 books a month. Colossus was in LAST DEFENDERS and UXM for a few months and the universe didn't implode. But, such is life.

One telling thing, though; he didn't mention Wasp. Team rosters can't be revealed until after SI #8. Missing a mention of Wasp with Hank mentioned is kind of like talking about Storm without a line about Black Panther, or about Rogue without mentioning Gambit. It is rare and usually deliberate. The Skrull Queen sees her as a "secret weapon". It may be possible that she is sacrificed to make the invasion count.

Jocasta has had a long history with the Avengers and may be a way to replace the dynamic the team lost with Vision. Plus, well, if Wasp is gone, and she has her brain patterns...things could get dramatic if Hank is around.

[CaptainCanada]

MyCup 'o Joe image (http://creative.myspace.com/groups/_mcb/mycupojoe/week027/img/SecretProject.jpg) and a link (http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=92159514&blogID=439965518) to the whole thing.


The image is labelled as a "secret project", but that art is clearly by Khoi Pham (the squinty eyes gives it away, even if I didn't recognize his Herc. Khoi Pham is the artist on Mighty Avengers. Jocasta is there, and she is the only confirmed member of the Mighty Avengers when Dan Slott takes over. Hence, this is probably from Dan Slott's upcoming run on Mighty Avengers.

Okay, left to right: Wanda, ?, Jocasta, Iron Man (I will reiterate my love the Granov armour design), ?, Hercules, Vision II, the Hulk, and Stature.

[TheCorpulent1]

That is pretty interesting, but I doubt that's the actual roster. Vision's appearance is a dead giveaway that it's probably not.

I'm actually more curious about who the dude on the bottom-left is. Possibly Hank Pym or Clint Barton in a new costume?

[CaptainCanada]

I agree it's not the lineup. Jocasta, Iron Man, and the two ? characters (one of whom has Cap's shield, now that I look at it) are possibilities, but the others are almost certainly just guests.

[TheCorpulent1]

Judging by the unfinished look of the pic, that could very well be Bucky before Cheung drew in the details of his costume. Actually, looking at it again, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a Young Avengers image, what with Cheung drawing and the heavy influence a certain badly costumed time traveler has on that series.

[CaptainCanada]

That's not Cheung, it's Khoi Pham.

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh, it is. His art looks really similar to Cheung's to me there, especially the faces.

[Vanguard07]

I hope Herc is stays on for a while. Marvel's Hercules makes any title better.

[TheCorpulent1]

The MA roster should include Hercules, Ares, and Thor. I want a theological trifecta.

[RockSP]

The MA roster should include Hercules, Ares, and Thor. I want a theological trifecta.

You also want a team that no one could beat :o.

[TheCorpulent1]

Or a team that would actually face threats worthy of the premiere superteam in the entire Marvel universe instead of ninjas.

[RockSP]

But...but...ninjas have those cool shoes that seperate the big toe from the rest!

[TheCorpulent1]

We call those pajama booties.

[Themanofbat]

Even back in the day, I was never a big fan of Jocasta, but if somebody can make her interesting to me, I have faith in Dan Slott.

:yay:

[xisaacx]

I have faith in Dan Slott.

:yay:

truth

[Vanguard07]

The MA roster should include Hercules, Ares, and Thor. I want a theological trifecta.


That would be damn awesome. Every issue you could have Herc and Ares break out fighting each other and have Thor break them up.

A team like that would
a) be badass
b) be very hard to control (and thus really interesting to read about)
and c) be believable as "the earth's mightiest heroes"

[Dread]

MyCup 'o Joe image (http://creative.myspace.com/groups/_mcb/mycupojoe/week027/img/SecretProject.jpg) and a link (http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=92159514&blogID=439965518) to the whole thing.


The image is labelled as a "secret project", but that art is clearly by Khoi Pham (the squinty eyes gives it away, even if I didn't recognize his Herc. Khoi Pham is the artist on Mighty Avengers. Jocasta is there, and she is the only confirmed member of the Mighty Avengers when Dan Slott takes over. Hence, this is probably from Dan Slott's upcoming run on Mighty Avengers.

Okay, left to right: Wanda, ?, Jocasta, Iron Man (I will reiterate my love the Granov armour design), ?, Hercules, Vision II, the Hulk, and Stature.

That is pretty interesting, but I doubt that's the actual roster. Vision's appearance is a dead giveaway that it's probably not.

I'm actually more curious about who the dude on the bottom-left is. Possibly Hank Pym or Clint Barton in a new costume?

http://creative.myspace.com/groups/_mcb/mycupojoe/week027/img/SecretProject.jpg

It is possible it could be a flashback, or a dream image, since I sincerely doubt that Scarlet Witch would not only be returning, but would be doing so as a heroine again. Jocasta, Iron Man, Hercules, Vision, Stature, and Hulk are also present, with two dudes I am unsure of.

It is a weird image. Why would Hulk get back on the Avengers given all his hassles in HULK? Granted, I actually wouldn't be so opposed to Vision 2.0 and Stature being on the roster. Their "parents" were Avengers (Vision, Scott Lang) and it would make some forward progress since YA is still waiting on Heinberg. Hercules could make a fine sub if Slott isn't allowed Thor by JMS. Jocasta has already been confirmed.

The other two guys, and Wanda, are iffy. If that one guy with the googles is Doctor Pym, that would be cool, and a good way to get him back to a proper power level rather than rehashing Yellowjacket again. I certainly wouldn't mind Wanda returning to being a heroine, but I would be amazed if Marvel allowed anyone but Bendis to do stuff with her. And who is the bald guy with the dot on his nose?

[RockSP]

And who is the bald guy with the dot on his nose?

Heh. I don't think that's supposed to be an actual dot on his nose. A few of the others also have the same thing going on.

Pham's art looks good here. Better than his stint on Incredible Hercules.

[Dread]

Heh. I don't think that's supposed to be an actual dot on his nose. A few of the others also have the same thing going on.

Pham's art looks good here. Better than his stint on Incredible Hercules.

Yeah, the art looks good.

So who is that bald dude? It can't be Luke Cage. Maybe a 3-D Man who wasn't detailed yet?

[T'Jai]

Yeah, the art looks good.

So who is that bald dude? It can't be Luke Cage. Maybe a 3-D Man who wasn't detailed yet?That's a mask and if you look in front of Jocasta's belly it looks like he's holding Cap's shield aka Barnes...

[Dread]

That's a mask and if you look in front of Jocasta's belly it looks like he's holding Cap's shield aka Barnes...

Hmm...true.

It does seem odd that New Cap would be with the Mighty rather than New team, but I'd rather him not be with Bendis anyway. Besides, he and Iron Man have a working relationship, and Marvel is trying to back off from his "Fascist" portrayal from Civil War for the past year or so.

[moraldeficiency]

Sort of on topic, but the yellowjacket ultamatium pic thing, that was actually a pretty cool looking costume. I wouldn't mind pym in that for mighty.

[Colossal Spoons]

What would Stature and Vision's inclusion on this team mean for the YAs? :(

[RockSP]

Nothing, since Young Avengers is never coming back.

[Colossal Spoons]

Well that would suck

[TheCorpulent1]

Sort of on topic, but the yellowjacket ultamatium pic thing, that was actually a pretty cool looking costume. I wouldn't mind pym in that for mighty.
Link?

[Dread]

What would Stature and Vision's inclusion on this team mean for the YAs? :(

Nothing, since Young Avengers is never coming back.

That is presuming that those two actually become members.

They could double-dip and be on two teams at once. Plenty of characters do that. Wolverine is the shining example, but Storm has as well. I doubt when most of the FF were briefly Avengers they didn't also appear in their own book. Colossus this year was briefly on the UXM and Last Defenders without the universe imploding.

Granted, is also is likely that YA is not coming back in a permanent form, and Marvel is finally thinking long term about the once hot characters. Hey, it only took them, what, 3 years?

[moraldeficiency]

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18401

It kinda has the yellowjacket look mixed with the constrictor.

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh man, there's just no way to make those gigantic shoulder fins look good, is there? The rest of the costume is a major improvement over the 616 Yellowjacket costume, but those fins... oh, those fins... :dry:

And Dread, apparently not every character can double-dip. Slott mentions he was denied the use of Beast because he's in Astonishing X-Men.

[Dread]

Meh, I would still prefer a revision of the "Doctor Pym" design. Stop playin' with bugs and embrace the full arsenal again, Hank. It isn't like he has a secret identity anymore.

[RockSP]

Meh, I would still prefer a revision of the "Doctor Pym" design.

Looks like that's what you'll be getting if that Pham pic means anything...

[Franklin Richards]

What was that Bot, Pym had during his Dr. phase?


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[TheCorpulent1]

ROVER (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/roverpym.htm) :)
Meh, I would still prefer a revision of the "Doctor Pym" design. Stop playin' with bugs and embrace the full arsenal again, Hank. It isn't like he has a secret identity anymore.
He could get one again. Just have Hank show up later on in a new identity and have some token retard who passes for one of Marvel's civilians wonder, "If that Hank Pym fella was one o' dem Skrull alien-types, who's dis mook?!"

Speaking of Hank, I was just reading a column Keith Giffen wrote for CBR (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18399) and found this lovely little tidbit under characters he'd "like a solid shot at":
GIANT-MAN: My all time favorite superhero. I'm talking Tales to Astonish era Giant-man, not the wife beating moron currently in play.
The thought of Giffen on a Pym mini-series, even if it were a flashback to the Tales to Astonish era, is too wonderful to contemplate for the mind-numbing disappointment of inevitably having to come back to a reality where it'll probably never happen.

[Dread]

ROVER (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/roverpym.htm) :)

He could get one again. Just have Hank show up later on in a new identity and have some token retard who passes for one of Marvel's civilians wonder, "If that Hank Pym fella was one o' dem Skrull alien-types, who's dis mook?!"

Speaking of Hank, I was just reading a column Keith Giffen wrote for CBR (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=18399) and found this lovely little tidbit under characters he'd "like a solid shot at":

The thought of Giffen on a Pym mini-series, even if it were a flashback to the Tales to Astonish era, is too wonderful to contemplate for the mind-numbing disappointment of inevitably having to come back to a reality where it'll probably never happen.

I vaguely recall ROVER.

It is also unlikely to happen given that Giffen is exclusive to DC for a while.

True point about Hank, but has a secret identity really served him well for a while? His girlfriend/wife was his partner in heroism and later Avengers co-founder. Virtually everyone else that he dated was also a superheroine. Usually he only seemed to have one when it was expected for most heroes to have 'em.

[spiderwasp]

I stopped reading New Avengers about a year ago and was this close (Making gesture with fingers) to quiting Mighty as well. Then I heard that Slott was coming on board. For the first time in about 3 years I am looking forward to a main Avengers title without trepidation. I looked forward to MA #1 cautiously since it was Bendis. I hoped against all logic that he could deliver an old-fashioned good Avengers book if he really tried but knew the odds were slim. No more. With Slott, I am confidant that the Avengers I know and love are on their way back home again.

Of course, I'm a bit bummed that it may be without the Wasp (Though that's just a rumor at this point) but it will help if Hank Pym can finally get some much needed respect. Oh, and the return of Jocasta - Great idea!

[Franklin Richards]

I'm thinking that Wasp will be saved some way by being downloaded into Jocasta. Or the previous download helps save her. Anywho... I'm thinkin' Wasp will be the opening that Jocasta needs to get into this book.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[THANOSRULES]

The masked character could easily be...


US AGENT..ex-avenger and most "mis" and "under" used character in all marveldom.



remember this is DAN SLOTT...

but anyway its a KILLER looking sneak peek..very excited.

[TheCorpulent1]

He's up in Canada, eh.
I'm thinking that Wasp will be saved some way by being downloaded into Jocasta. Or the previous download helps save her. Anywho... I'm thinkin' Wasp will be the opening that Jocasta needs to get into this book.


:thing: :doom: :thing:
Why does Jocasta need an opening to get into the book? She's an ex-Avenger herself.

[moraldeficiency]

I'll bet the next issue of AtI will have us giving jocosta the respect she deserves. She's just been out of the spotlight too long for most.

[TheCorpulent1]

I thought she was busy in Marvel Zombies 3.

[moraldeficiency]

Both, she's killing zombies while killing skrulls aparently. AtI ended last issue with 3D Man, Jacosta and Devil Slayer teaming up to go after the rest of the super skrulls.

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Is it actually possible to "kill" zombies?

[moraldeficiency]

I think of zombies like viruses. They may or may not count as living organisms, but there's a definate way to kill or exterminate them.

[hippie_hunter]

MyCup 'o Joe image (http://creative.myspace.com/groups/_mcb/mycupojoe/week027/img/SecretProject.jpg) and a link (http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=92159514&blogID=439965518) to the whole thing.


The image is labelled as a "secret project", but that art is clearly by Khoi Pham (the squinty eyes gives it away, even if I didn't recognize his Herc. Khoi Pham is the artist on Mighty Avengers. Jocasta is there, and she is the only confirmed member of the Mighty Avengers when Dan Slott takes over. Hence, this is probably from Dan Slott's upcoming run on Mighty Avengers.

Okay, left to right: Wanda, ?, Jocasta, Iron Man (I will reiterate my love the Granov armour design), ?, Hercules, Vision II, the Hulk, and Stature.

I'm starting to think that this might be the roster because of Dan Slott's comments

Um... I'm just going to give the very patented "keep reading/stay tuned." But I think people are really going to freak out when they see our first few covers, when those come out.
Hmmm....

Our book will start after that, but they might reveal the first three covers, since they all link up and make a giant image together.
The image shown is obviously three covers making a giant image together.

If this is the roster, I'm very intrigued. It really makes this book feel like the successor to the original Avengers book. Although if Iron Man, Hulk, and Hercules on the team, I'm very disappointed that Ms. Marvel (who also has her own book) is not. But getting rid of the Sentry, Spider-Woman and Ares kinda makes up for it. And I'm really anxious to see why Wonder Man, Black Widow, and Wasp aren't there.

[Dread]

U.S. Agent was busy with Omega Flight in Canada as recently as MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS, which just wrapped a few months ago. Granted, he could always be "shipped home" if need be. It still is weird that Canada's "super-team" is made up of half Americans. Even after Collector's massacre, there should still be enough B and C list AF members for that roster. At least two of them are stuck in the Weapon X program circa some failed X-title from a few years ago.

Zombies can be killed via mystical means or weapons. They have varied in Marvel. There also used to be "zuembie's" or other spellings to get around strict CCOA rules that didn't allow the use of the word Zombie during the 70's.

I'm starting to think that this might be the roster because of Dan Slott's comments


Hmmm....


The image shown is obviously three covers making a giant image together.

If this is the roster, I'm very intrigued. It really makes this book feel like the successor to the original Avengers book. Although if Iron Man, Hulk, and Hercules on the team, I'm very disappointed that Ms. Marvel (who also has her own book) is not. But getting rid of the Sentry, Spider-Woman and Ares kinda makes up for it. And I'm really anxious to see why Wonder Man, Black Widow, and Wasp aren't there.

Thanks for posting those Slott comments, they help fill in some of the pieces of the puzzle.

Black Widow has been on and off the Avengers roster for many stretches due to her spy stuff. Wasp of course may or may not be on Bendis' hit list for SECRET INVASION.

As for Wonder Man, for all we know, he splits to join The Order in California, since he used to protect that state and thanks to Zeke Stane, they lost quite a few team members (about two).

It does seem weird to have Hulk on an Avengers team roster again, considering he only just tried to kill all the heroes and practically destroyed NYC during WWH which in Marvel time was "a few months ago". Granted, the issue with Banner/Hulk is that he has a variety of personalities and one never knows which one you get when he transforms. There's Joe Fixit, the Professor, Child Hulk, "Savage" Hulk, and all sorts of varieties in-between.

Hercules and Iron Man being on the same roster must REALLY mean that they're relaxing those SHRA rules, since the two were bitter enemies during CW. Isn't Herc still on the run in his own series with Cho?

There also would require an, ahem, "Herculean" labor to get Scarlet Witch back to a level where she could be a heroine again after 4 years of crap that Bendis has heaped upon her.

[Franklin Richards]

Mutant Zero is Wanda.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[Dread]

Mutant Zero is Wanda.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

Some people have claimed that. The problem is the powers don't link up.

[TheCorpulent1]

Read it again knowing what you know about nobody at Marvel giving a f***.

[moraldeficiency]

Slott does though.

[Franklin Richards]

Well, what are the powers that Zero has exhibited? Let's see how they link up to Wanda.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[TheCorpulent1]

Slott does though.
Maybe. He's in the big leagues now. He didn't give a f*** about Spider-Faust, after all.

[Dread]

Slott does try to adhere to continuity, whether it is legit or a ****ed up story he tries to make it all fit as a whole.

Mutant Zero's identity is a tricky thing. Botch it and it could be remembered like DC's whole Monarch thing, which isn't well.

I say, if Slott wants MZ to be Jean Grey or Maddie Pryor, he should go ahead. Frankly it'd be easier to just have Dr. Strange come in and say, "Wanda's back from therapy" and go from there if that is where we are going. It would have been cooler if the YA had found her, but as Heinberg is never returning, if Slott wants to take up the task to redeem her after almost a half decade of botching, hey, godspeed man.

[moraldeficiency]

Maybe. He's in the big leagues now. He didn't give a f*** about Spider-Faust, after all.

I've got to forgive him on that. It's got to be hard to say no to writing spider-man if your both a writer and spider-man fan. On the stuff that's his own, he's pretty consistant.

[TheCorpulent1]

I know, just saying, it's a possibility that he might go for the "zomg nonsense shock!" method of storytelling that dominates Marvel's bigger titles. Everyone loved Bendis when he was just writing Daredevil and Alias.

[moraldeficiency]

that's why I think it's copycat, he can make the reveal as jean or wanda only to have it twist again later.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, I like the Copycat idea. I think I already said that somewhere else.

[moraldeficiency]

you did, I was just reiterating the point. It's a long shot but if I'm right I expect the internets to kiss my ass on that one.

So far every bendis-like thing in AtI eventually turned out to be something cool, so I'm gonna say Slott ain't letting us down with this.

[TheCorpulent1]

I hope you're right.

[Dread]

Slott promised that MZ's reveal would be a major thing that mattered to even casual fans. Copycat barely matters to the most hardcore of X-Fans to recall an X-Force C-Lister (or was it X-Factor? In the 90's they all were a blur between crossovers).

I don't read ASM and thus I can't comment on that. I flipped through some issues early on and they didn't appear interesting enough for me to break my "No BND" vow. Naturally, Slott can't break certain editorial credo's. If Joe Q wants BND, then he has to work with it or around it and so on. Especially as ASM operates as a round Robin of writers every month.

Everyone also liked Bendis on DAREDEVIL and ALIAS because those books played to his genre strength and thus they were actually good. Most of the books and stories that Bendis does not do well and earn him the most venom are the ones that do not play to his strength and he is thus weak to. Not ever writer can write every genre with the same skill, something both comic companies and Hollywood have not learned. All of Bendis' works before has been crime noir types or political/organizational thrillers. He landed on USM and was fine there for a few years. But slap him on a team book and give him mastery of the MU and Bendis isn't nearly as strong. The fact that Bendis write Ultimate X-Men for a year and spent half of that basically doing an extended "Ultimate Marvel Team-Up" story should have been proof that he struggles greatly with team books.


Slott, at least from writing and personal impressions, has a lot of ideas but he works to make them fit into the history of work as a whole. That isn't to say all of his stories have been of equal quality and that he has never had an idea that didn't misfire. But his intents with stories are usually different from Bendis.

That said, there is always the concern of a writer being stretched thin by success. It happens in many offices; do well, and your reward is more work and more responsibility, which brings new hassles. Fraction's quality of work has slipped a bit as he has gained new titles. He's still good, but comparing THE ORDER to INVINCIBLE IRON MAN and you notice it. He went from like two books to about four or so with co-writers and it shows.

However, at the very least, I think the editors know that Slott's "comfort level" is usually about two ongoings (and maybe a 1 shot here and there between) without delays on his end, and so far Slott's worked with that, or with a co-writer like Gage on A:TI.

[TheCorpulent1]

Actually, Slott said that she was a cover character, and Copycat was on the cover of several Deadpool comics.

[Dread]

Actually, Slott said that she was a cover character, and Copycat was on the cover of several Deadpool comics.

Everyone and Eye-Scream has been on a cover. :o

Making Mutant Zero Copycat would be a mistake. It would be another Ronin; unmask the mystery character and who do you get? Someone barely anyone has heard of and hardly anyone cares about. Usually mysteries like that have to have some more recognition, more Ooomph.

Besides, then they'd have to retcon another death (I believe she was killed by Sabretooth last we saw her.)

[moraldeficiency]

Slott promised that MZ's reveal would be a major thing that mattered to even casual fans. Copycat barely matters to the most hardcore of X-Fans to recall an X-Force C-Lister (or was it X-Factor? In the 90's they all were a blur between crossovers).


Ah, but wouldn't it be fiendish to reveal jean grey or wanda and have people think that's what's up only to pull the rug out issues later with copycat? It sounds like a slott esque move to me, like the scarlet spider reveals.

I'm probably wrong, but I see a harmony in it. It's also the only powerset and fighting acumen that remotely fits.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, that's why they reveal her as Maddie Pryor or Jean Grey first, and then reveal later on that she's Copycat.

[Dread]

Ah, but wouldn't it be fiendish to reveal jean grey or wanda and have people think that's what's up only to pull the rug out issues later with copycat? It sounds like a slott esque move to me, like the scarlet spider reveals.

I'm probably wrong, but I see a harmony in it. It's also the only powerset and fighting acumen that remotely fits.

Mutant Zero has displayed combat skills, telekenesis, high speed, and acrobatics. Telekenesis can be used to induce flight so that could account for speed. She also is seemingly a Caucasian woman with red hair who fears her "dark side". Fooling Trauma would be quite a feat for a shapeshifter.

I didn't sense any "rug pulling" with the Scarlet Spiders. You never found out who they were for a bit, and then you learn they're clones of MVP. What, did someone seriously assume Jackal was on Gyrich's payroll somewhere? Slott made no such allusions. Really my only disappointment to the Spiders is that they're really interchanagble and I don't see them as characters, but more like details to MVP. But clones who complete each other's sentences always have that hassle. Just look at the Stepford Cuckoo's.

I did like that apparently MVP's Morality was passed on to them, and I wouldn't mind seeing how the new MVP "handles" his siblings somewhere.

Well, that's why they reveal her as Maddie Pryor or Jean Grey first, and then reveal later on that she's Copycat.

That would seem like a cop-out to me.

Maddie Pryor's essentially free. No one has done anything with her for 8 years. And while she is hardly a major X-figure, she's mattered more to the line than Copycat ever did. I always saw Copycat as "yet another shape-shifter" when it seemed Mystique had a few carbon copy characters. The 90's were full of "clones" of established X-ones. How many imitations of Wolverine are there?

Jean Grey frankly would be a lot harder to pull off, but you'd really have that gut-check and the feeling that A:TI matters and isn't just a fun B-List title.

Once the reveal is done, it is best to stick to it. Again, Bendis tried twice to make Ronin work, and twice he failed. Usually best to do it right the first time, or, if it stumbles, just work around it and continue onward. Fans can have short memories if your next big idea is a hit.

Granted the X-factor is "reality warping", so for all we know, MZ IS Wanda and then she departs for MA. But that isn't a given. It would also take lengthy explanations as to why Wanda is a gun toting warrior. Betty Brant went that route randomly once, and it sucked.

[moraldeficiency]

Mutant Zero has displayed combat skills, telekenesis, high speed, and acrobatics. Telekenesis can be used to induce flight so that could account for speed. She also is seemingly a Caucasian woman with red hair who fears her "dark side". Fooling Trauma would be quite a feat for a shapeshifter.


ah, ah, ah, copycat doesn't just copy powers she copies people right down to the genome but retains her mind as well. Hence any powers and her own training from Weapon X for fighting skills. So she can look like anyone she wants with everything they know and can do.

So maybe she was copying jean and that accounts for the dark side or maybe her own dark side (when she used to be a spy and assassin for Toliver or her time in Weapon X) was the issue. It works either way.

She also needs to rest after using her powers, just like copycat does.

The rug pulling was that they were different people as Slott indicated he would reveal "one" of the identities of the scarlet spiders in that issue, only to have all three be the same person. It was a clever trick that no one saw coming.

[Mr. Green]

There is no way Hulk or Herc will be on the MA roster. It's possible of course but I doubt it.

[hippie_hunter]

The masked character could easily be...


US AGENT..ex-avenger and most "mis" and "under" used character in all marveldom.



remember this is DAN SLOTT...

but anyway its a KILLER looking sneak peek..very excited.
I'm browsing through the CBR Boards and some people are putting up some rather good arguments that the masked character is Captain America.

1. Bendis has stated on his boards that the characters on the cover of New Avengers #48 (Spider-Man, Captain America, Echo, Ronin, Wolverine, Luke Cage) are NOT his roster for New Avengers in the post-Secret Invasion Marvel Universe.

2. Look closely at the image and you can see the V-shape chest design that Captain America has which USAgent lacks.

Also think about the characters and the storylines that the New and Mighty Avengers are in.

1. Even though he isn't registered and is not an agent of the US government that the SHRA requires, Captain America does have a working relationship with SHIELD and Tony Stark and they provide him with "unofficial" support. Does it really make sense for Bucky to bite the hand that essentially feeds him? No it doesn't.

Also if you take a look if that is the Mighty Avengers roster, Hercules is on the team and he isn't a part of the SHRA currently either. So one can make the assumption that the enforcement of the SHRA is going to be more lax in the post-Secret Invasion Marvel Universe or there will be some sort of mutual agreement between the pro and anti registration superheroes (autonomy like what Captain America has for registration, a simple cease-fire, who the hell knows).

2. From the way Captain America #42 ended, Brubaker is presenting Captain America as a hero in the eyes of the general public. Having Captain America join a team that has Spider-Man, someone who is currently accused of murder with the spider-tracer killings; Wolverine, someone who is not only a murderer but is a part of the X-Mens' assassination squad as well; Clint Barton, a former criminal; and Luke Cage, a former convict and de-facto leader of unauthorized vigilantism; kinda goes against that scene in Captain America #42.

[Dread]

ah, ah, ah, copycat doesn't just copy powers she copies people right down to the genome but retains her mind as well. Hence any powers and her own training from Weapon X for fighting skills. So she can look like anyone she wants with everything they know and can do.

So maybe she was copying jean and that accounts for the dark side or maybe her own dark side (when she used to be a spy and assassin for Toliver or her time in Weapon X) was the issue. It works either way.

She also needs to rest after using her powers, just like copycat does.

The rug pulling was that they were different people as Slott indicated he would reveal "one" of the identities of the scarlet spiders in that issue, only to have all three be the same person. It was a clever trick that no one saw coming.

Copycat sounds "cheap". That was the other problem with a lot of 90's characters; their power levels got ridiculous. Someone who can copy any ability and the mind to match should be effectively unbeatable. There is zero risk of being out of abilities or not knowing how to use them. I knew there was a reason why Copycat never made much impression on me. "The power to gain new powers" is probably the most boring power of all to me most times. Even Rogue has a weakness in that regard.

It was a clever trick but it isn't the same as revealing a mystery character to be one person, and then swapping it for a shape-shifter. If Mutant Zero is Copycat, best to just do it and get it over with rather than going for a fake out with Jean or Wanda.

WEAPON X...that was the name of the title. Yeah, that was about a year or two ago.

I see how it makes sense in some ways, but Copycat is a nothing, worthless character, and it would be a shame to waste the opportunity. A decent reveal could be one of those issues that has to be reprinted twice because it's so popular, that really gets A:TI a good bump in sales beyond crossovers, which would be great since it would be Slott's last issue as writer or co-writer. I can't imagine that sort of excitement for Copycat. You need to be a hardcore X-Fan to even know who she is, and an X-Fan God to know beyond, "oh, that random shapeshifting chick". It might make story sense but I see it as a lost opportunity from a grander perspective. An unmasking really doesn't have much dramatic weight if the revelation is just, "Oh, that random X-character who always bordered F-List and was killed off about two years ago, and wasn't missed."

Of course, on the other hand, characters like Copycat at least give a writer leeway. No one cares about them, so you can do whatever you want. That can't be said of Jean or even Wanda at this point.

There is no way Hulk or Herc will be on the MA roster. It's possible of course but I doubt it.

It does seem strange to have Hulk and Herc on the same team as Iron Man and other registered heroes, doesn't it?

[Dread]

I'm browsing through the CBR Boards and some people are putting up some rather good arguments that the masked character is Captain America.

1. Bendis has stated on his boards that the characters on the cover of New Avengers #48 (Spider-Man, Captain America, Echo, Ronin, Wolverine, Luke Cage) are NOT his roster for New Avengers in the post-Secret Invasion Marvel Universe.

2. Look closely at the image and you can see the V-shape chest design that Captain America has which USAgent lacks.

Also think about the characters and the storylines that the New and Mighty Avengers are in.

1. Even though he isn't registered and is not an agent of the US government that the SHRA requires, Captain America does have a working relationship with SHIELD and Tony Stark and they provide him with "unofficial" support. Does it really make sense for Bucky to bite the hand that essentially feeds him? No it doesn't.

Also if you take a look if that is the Mighty Avengers roster, Hercules is on the team and he isn't a part of the SHRA currently either. So one can make the assumption that the enforcement of the SHRA is going to be more lax in the post-Secret Invasion Marvel Universe or there will be some sort of mutual agreement between the pro and anti registration superheroes (autonomy like what Captain America has for registration, a simple cease-fire, who the hell knows).

2. From the way Captain America #42 ended, Brubaker is presenting Captain America as a hero in the eyes of the general public. Having Captain America join a team that has Spider-Man, someone who is currently accused of murder with the spider-tracer killings; Wolverine, someone who is not only a murderer but is a part of the X-Mens' assassination squad as well; Clint Barton, a former criminal; and Luke Cage, a former convict and de-facto leader of unauthorized vigilantism; kinda goes against that scene in Captain America #42.

I'd prefer for New Cap to be in Mighty Avengers with Slott.

And to be fair, Hawkeye was respected in the superhero and legal community for many years despite being a "former criminal". They even entrusted the Thunderbolts to him for a time because of that impressive rep. The fact that he overcame his roots was seen as being why Hawkeye was an inspirational hero to many. At least before he decided to be a Foot Ninja and abandon his primary combat advantage because a teenage girl is using them, too. Guess that means Wolverine should abandon his claws because X-23 has adamantuim claws, too. Silly Marvel.

But it does seem that the SHRA's enforcement has been lax for a while. The powers that be realized that CW was too polarizing and would squash story potential if played out to logical conclusions or with the same intensity. This started during WWH, when Iron Man hardly was trying to arrest the New Avengers who was aiding his own team. It makes sense to either suspend strict enforcement during "crisis" times or to have some leeway if said unregistered hero is not breaking any laws and/or is aiding registered heroes.

It would help if the SHRA's terms were strictly and simply summarized and supported line wide. But Marvel wants to keep it vague, trading writer freedom for a cohesive universe, and I doubt they will change their minds about it now. That's how the cookie crumbles. I mean, DC's been rewriting set-in-stone Green Lantern rules, right?

Still, if you are going to have a team with Cap and Iron Man on it, why not Thor too? JMS still doesn't want to share him? They're the Big Three. Hercules may have more of a sense of humor, but he's no Thor. And Hulk appears to be an odd addition.

I am glad that Slott wants to embrace the heart of the Avengers after so many years of Bendis telling us how broken it is, and how much better it will be after he is done with it. But hopefully it all makes sense besides a Who's Who of members.

[hippie_hunter]

I'd prefer for New Cap to be in Mighty Avengers with Slott.
Same.

And to be fair, Hawkeye was respected in the superhero and legal community for many years despite being a "former criminal". They even entrusted the Thunderbolts to him for a time because of that impressive rep. The fact that he overcame his roots was seen as being why Hawkeye was an inspirational hero to many. At least before he decided to be a Foot Ninja and abandon his primary combat advantage because a teenage girl is using them, too. Guess that means Wolverine should abandon his claws because X-23 has adamantuim claws, too. Silly Marvel.
I do agree with you there but when you try to portray Captain America as a hero in the eyes of the general public, it's still a bad idea to put him on a team with an accused murderer, an actual murderer, a former convict, and a former criminal despite their heroic credentials.

But it does seem that the SHRA's enforcement has been lax for a while. The powers that be realized that CW was too polarizing and would squash story potential if played out to logical conclusions or with the same intensity. This started during WWH, when Iron Man hardly was trying to arrest the New Avengers who was aiding his own team. It makes sense to either suspend strict enforcement during "crisis" times or to have some leeway if said unregistered hero is not breaking any laws and/or is aiding registered heroes.
To be fair though in World War Hulk, Iron Man and Dr. Strange did have a cease-fire agreement and Iron Man offered pardons for them to come together.

It would help if the SHRA's terms were strictly and simply summarized and supported line wide. But Marvel wants to keep it vague, trading writer freedom for a cohesive universe, and I doubt they will change their minds about it now. That's how the cookie crumbles. I mean, DC's been rewriting set-in-stone Green Lantern rules, right?
Agreed. It's getting annoying seeing the inconsistencies with the SHRA's portrayal.

Still, if you are going to have a team with Cap and Iron Man on it, why not Thor too? JMS still doesn't want to share him? They're the Big Three. Hercules may have more of a sense of humor, but he's no Thor. And Hulk appears to be an odd addition.
I'd rather see Thor more than Hercules and Hulk, despite an odd addition, was a founding Avenger after all, plus he will be in the Avengers movie.

I am glad that Slott wants to embrace the heart of the Avengers after so many years of Bendis telling us how broken it is, and how much better it will be after he is done with it. But hopefully it all makes sense besides a Who's Who of members.
What I really like is that it appears that Slott is embracing Marvel's idea that the Avengers should be treated in a Justice League like manner by having their biggest characters (Iron Man, Hulk, possibly Captain America and Hank Pym, hopefully Thor someday) while still treating it like the Avengers with Avengers caliber heroes like Scarlet Witch, Hercules, Jocasta instead of characters that just downright don't belong on the team like Luke Cage and Wolverine.

[Dread]

I do agree with you there but when you try to portray Captain America as a hero in the eyes of the general public, it's still a bad idea to put him on a team with an accused murderer, an actual murderer, a former convict, and a former criminal despite their heroic credentials.

Fair point, but if we're stretching with those guys, the SHRA side isn't all peaches and sugar. New Cap has allied with Black Widow, a former Soviet spy. Falcon is a former street gang member/leader, too. Iron Man of course has had years worth of legal hassles including being framed for murder, the Armor Wars stuff, things Wanda "made" him do, etc. He may be the head of SHIELD but not everyone trusts him. I agree that it makes more sense for New Cap to be on the "official" team, but they're hardly spotless, either. Especially if The Hulk is also a member. Again, he just tried taking over NYC and pummeled nearly every major hero across the coast. Hulk is the definition of anti-hero.

To be fair though in World War Hulk, Iron Man and Dr. Strange did have a cease-fire agreement and Iron Man offered pardons for them to come together.

Dr. Strange, due to his role as the Sorceror Supreme and usual first line of defense for mystical threats, was among the first beings who was considered "neutral" to the SHRA. They were entering agreements with him since the end of CW.

Agreed. It's getting annoying seeing the inconsistencies with the SHRA's portrayal.

Especially considering how vital it is.

I'd rather see Thor more than Hercules and Hulk, despite an odd addition, was a founding Avenger after all, plus he will be in the Avengers movie.

I am very much aware of the Hulk. It is rather funny since Cap was retroactively made a "founder" in place of Hulk and the Avengers spent a great deal of time sort of pretending Hulk's role as founder was a fluke because he kept trashing stuff. Hulk, for his part, always felt the Avengers hated him, and it was true. WWH of course put all this back in the spotlight, especially as Iron Man was key in sending Hulk off world to begin with. Even when Hulk was "The Professor", he didn't trust the Avengers enough to join them again. It seems really bizarre to stick him on the team roster now, aside for the movie stuff.

What I really like is that it appears that Slott is embracing Marvel's idea that the Avengers should be treated in a Justice League like manner by having their biggest characters (Iron Man, Hulk, possibly Captain America and Hank Pym, hopefully Thor someday) while still treating it like the Avengers with Avengers caliber heroes like Scarlet Witch, Hercules, Jocasta instead of characters that just downright don't belong on the team like Luke Cage and Wolverine.

Not to mention Stature, daughter of Scott Lang/Ant-Man II, and Vision 2.0, who is the "son" of the original Vision (or at least is running on his protocols) with a Young Kang's brain patterns (and Slott did mention Kang in interviews). Slott may want the two to step up and embrace their legacies, and that sounds cool.

I mean, Justice & Firestar were mostly just ex New Warriors until Busiek & Perez made them serious Avengers (especially as Justice once tried out for the team before founding the NW's, and his alternate future self was Vance Astro, who wore a Cap-themed costume and his old shield).

[hippie_hunter]

I'm kinda curious to see how Scarlet Witch will react to Vision 2.0

[Dread]

I'm kinda curious to see how Scarlet Witch will react to Vision 2.0

Hopefully not by freaking out and screaming, "NO MORE ROBOTS!" :o

Perhaps the knowledge that her children survived and are heroes will be why Wanda is able to pull herself together.

[TheCorpulent1]

Wanda and the Vision haven't been together in years. She'd probably just be glad the Vision lives on somehow and regret accidentally killing him while she was crazy.

Or she's still crazy, in which case she'll probably try to kill him again or hump him or both.

[CaptainStacy]

It does seem weird to have Hulk on an Avengers team roster again, considering he only just tried to kill all the heroes and practically destroyed NYC during WWH which in Marvel time was "a few months ago". Granted, the issue with Banner/Hulk is that he has a variety of personalities and one never knows which one you get when he transforms. There's Joe Fixit, the Professor, Child Hulk, "Savage" Hulk, and all sorts of varieties in-between.

Hercules and Iron Man being on the same roster must REALLY mean that they're relaxing those SHRA rules, since the two were bitter enemies during CW. Isn't Herc still on the run in his own series with Cho?

There also would require an, ahem, "Herculean" labor to get Scarlet Witch back to a level where she could be a heroine again after 4 years of crap that Bendis has heaped upon her.


He didnt try to kill them. If he wanted them dead, they'd be dead. He was just proving a point.

[Eros]

He didnt try to kill them. If he wanted them dead, they'd be dead. He was just proving a point.


So Hulk was sent to space becasue he was a monster, and to prove that isn't monster he comes back to earth and nearly kills many of its heroes:huh:

[Dread]

Wanda and the Vision haven't been together in years. She'd probably just be glad the Vision lives on somehow and regret accidentally killing him while she was crazy.

Or she's still crazy, in which case she'll probably try to kill him again or hump him or both.

I would like to think that if she was still crazy, she wouldn't be on the team. But then again, Iron Man is the same guy who thought sticking the equally insane Sentry onto the squad was a good idea.

He didnt try to kill them. If he wanted them dead, they'd be dead. He was just proving a point.

Hulk still pummeled practically every hero on Manhattan island and nearly shattered the island itself. Movie fame aside, it will be a stretch to justify why he is on the team if the "Mighty" team is supposed to be the official registered version.

[Franklin Richards]

Before he was shot into space he destroyed a half of Vegas. Or at least a suburb. Go Ben Grimm.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[Dread]

Exactly.

Like I said, in theory this roster seems interesting but it will take some damn fine writing to make it work considering the MU's recent past.

While I am 98.999% sure that armored fellow is indeed Iron Man, anyone out there wondering if it could be War Machine? Some artists do draw their armor virtually alike aside for color scheme.

[THANOSRULES]

Lets not forget old Vision also tried to take over the world.

As for cap..I can see a shield..but how many full blown shields are out there? 2? Vance Astro in GOTG..it should be the real deal, and the 1 bucky uses, caps shield..we also have a "near perfect" replica in the museum.

[moraldeficiency]

Of course, on the other hand, characters like Copycat at least give a writer leeway. No one cares about them, so you can do whatever you want. That can't be said of Jean or even Wanda at this point.




Well I'll disagree with you about copycat sucking, I liked the original X-Force quite a bit and she was a big part of that, also for deadpool.

The beauty of the character isn't that she's a throwaway (slott doesn't seem to do that) but that she allows slott to have any character (almost) in the MU "guest star" in the series without actually using them. You want spider-man for a mission? You got him, but without the baggage that his series brings. A good writer could really use a concept like this.

As far as power, you've already got trauma who's one of those characters capable of taking down anyone, she wouldn't be so bad. Plus she can only use the power once before needing to rest so not completely all powerful like you make her out to be.

[Dread]

Lets not forget old Vision also tried to take over the world.

As for cap..I can see a shield..but how many full blown shields are out there? 2? Vance Astro in GOTG..it should be the real deal, and the 1 bucky uses, caps shield..we also have a "near perfect" replica in the museum.

Vision's ISAAC inspired quest was a good 15-20 years ago in real time and likely at least 3-4 years ago in "Marvel time". That was also a prior Vision; Iron Man considers the original dead and the "new kid" to be a new breed entirely, at least according to one of the CW Handbooks. Iron Man does not presume that this Vision is the same as the one that was his longtime ally and in a way he is correct.

As for shields, Cap's is still an original. The one Vance Astro has is from an alternate future; supposedly a time paradox may open if the two ever touch. Cap's shield has proven to survive a number of harsh alternate futures.

By the logic of alternate futures, Chronok from the alternate reality in MTU would still have one.

Well I'll disagree with you about copycat sucking, I liked the original X-Force quite a bit and she was a big part of that, also for deadpool.

The beauty of the character isn't that she's a throwaway (slott doesn't seem to do that) but that she allows slott to have any character (almost) in the MU "guest star" in the series without actually using them. You want spider-man for a mission? You got him, but without the baggage that his series brings. A good writer could really use a concept like this.

As far as power, you've already got trauma who's one of those characters capable of taking down anyone, she wouldn't be so bad. Plus she can only use the power once before needing to rest so not completely all powerful like you make her out to be.

Having a character "guest star" and then turn out to have simply been a shape-shifter could be seen by many as a cop out or trick, even worse when old 90's covers would brag about Ghost Rider or Punisher guest starring and they'd be in for maybe 1-2 pages.

Trauma has a distinct weakness; a character without fear or self-doubt is immune to his effects. He also is not quite a skilled fighter.

I just don't see any real oomph in revealing the identity of an X-Force B-Lister who was killed off without a hiccup a good two years ago. I see it as a missed opportunity. No one is clamouring for her to return. Copycat next to Trauma would have two "moder" characters with immediately similar powers occupying the same space, and as HEROES is showing with Peter & Sylar, that can get boring real quickly.

Jean is possible but seems too obvious and thus unlikely, plus the baby in CABLE may be her. Maddie Pryor is probably more obscure than Copycat but has had more impact on the X-Men line as a whole (ex-wife of Cyclops, mother of Cable, focal point of INFERNO, an 80's crossover event). Wanda I would say was a long shot until seeing that sketch of Slott's potential Mighty roster, so it could be possible that she is revealed and leaves A:TI with him. Or it could be someone else entirely.

I know Slott's been good with some lessor known characters, but the reveal of Mutant Zero to me should be a big deal; Copycat wouldn't bring that. I mean, she was even BLUE SKINNED like Mystique for chrissakes. I never saw her as more than a dopple of her. But, apparently there are fans of X-FORCE somewhere. I just doubt they are great in numbers to make a potential Copycat return a big deal. A:TI could use a big bang reveal to end Slott's run on it on a bang. I don't want MZ to simply be another Echo.

[moraldeficiency]

Having a character "guest star" and then turn out to have simply been a shape-shifter could be seen by many as a cop out or trick, even worse when old 90's covers would brag about Ghost Rider or Punisher guest starring and they'd be in for maybe 1-2 pages.

Trauma has a distinct weakness; a character without fear or self-doubt is immune to his effects. He also is not quite a skilled fighter.

I just don't see any real oomph in revealing the identity of an X-Force B-Lister who was killed off without a hiccup a good two years ago. I see it as a missed opportunity. No one is clamouring for her to return. Copycat next to Trauma would have two "moder" characters with immediately similar powers occupying the same space, and as HEROES is showing with Peter & Sylar, that can get boring real quickly.

Jean is possible but seems too obvious and thus unlikely, plus the baby in CABLE may be her. Maddie Pryor is probably more obscure than Copycat but has had more impact on the X-Men line as a whole (ex-wife of Cyclops, mother of Cable, focal point of INFERNO, an 80's crossover event). Wanda I would say was a long shot until seeing that sketch of Slott's potential Mighty roster, so it could be possible that she is revealed and leaves A:TI with him. Or it could be someone else entirely.

I know Slott's been good with some lessor known characters, but the reveal of Mutant Zero to me should be a big deal; Copycat wouldn't bring that. I mean, she was even BLUE SKINNED like Mystique for chrissakes. I never saw her as more than a dopple of her. But, apparently there are fans of X-FORCE somewhere. I just doubt they are great in numbers to make a potential Copycat return a big deal. A:TI could use a big bang reveal to end Slott's run on it on a bang. I don't want MZ to simply be another Echo.

I don't mean guest staring like that, I mean if the mission would be one where say deadpool, or spider-man or wolverine would be a great aid she could dupe them do some stuff but then have to retreat, you can get interplay and conflictions of emotions a plenty. It would become who's power will she use this issue and what will the consequences be? I think there's a lot of potential there.

Very few people have no fear, and while he might not be a fighter if someone's fear is a fighter then he becomes that on steriods. I don't see much of a difference here, in fact trauma's more powerful because his powers don't have so many limitations and don't require him to immediately shut down after use.

No one was clamoring for AtI at all. It was an odd concept comprised of all D-Z listers, but it turns out taking these characters and putting them in the hands of someone that's a good writer equals a damn fun and good title. Think of the cast, none have been extremely popular at all, but that's why it's genius. ****, I like the 3D man now, I never thought I'd say that. Copycat would fit in more with this team than any major name.

In a way trauma and copycat are kinda similar in that they change shape but the boundries and abilities are vastly different. It's not even close to the heroes people.

None of the characters you've listed fits what we know about Mutant Zero. Even with your telekinesis theory (which is a pretty big streach) there's the fighting ability and need to rest after using their power. Also I don't see why any would be so loyal to gygrich.

And I think the reveal will be one of those big characters, just like I said. But I think the actuality will be something different. The mystique comparison is only in terms of changing shape and that's where it ends. It's like saying cyclops and the silver surfer are the same cause both use energy manipulations. Mystique is always mystique though in different shape. Copycat can do the mystique thing but if she touches someone she can become that person down to the genome while keeping her mind as well. Also a big bang reveal to leave on sounds more bendis than slott to me, his reveals are more odd and cool.

This is a book about D listers, and I doubt anyone huge (especially Jean or Wanda) is gonna make their comeback here. It isn't what the book's about, and it's the exact type of thing Slott's gone against from the start, a "big" reveal would be all fluff and no substance.

[THANOSRULES]

I don't mean guest staring like that, I mean if the mission would be one where say deadpool, or spider-man or wolverine would be a great aid she could dupe them do some stuff but then have to retreat, you can get interplay and conflictions of emotions a plenty. It would become who's power will she use this issue and what will the consequences be? I think there's a lot of potential there.

Very few people have no fear, and while he might not be a fighter if someone's fear is a fighter then he becomes that on steriods. I don't see much of a difference here, in fact trauma's more powerful because his powers don't have so many limitations and don't require him to immediately shut down after use.

No one was clamoring for AtI at all. It was an odd concept comprised of all D-Z listers, but it turns out taking these characters and putting them in the hands of someone that's a good writer equals a damn fun and good title. Think of the cast, none have been extremely popular at all, but that's why it's genius. ****, I like the 3D man now, I never thought I'd say that. Copycat would fit in more with this team than any major name.

In a way trauma and copycat are kinda similar in that they change shape but the boundries and abilities are vastly different. It's not even close to the heroes people.

None of the characters you've listed fits what we know about Mutant Zero. Even with your telekinesis theory (which is a pretty big streach) there's the fighting ability and need to rest after using their power. Also I don't see why any would be so loyal to gygrich.

And I think the reveal will be one of those big characters, just like I said. But I think the actuality will be something different. The mystique comparison is only in terms of changing shape and that's where it ends. It's like saying cyclops and the silver surfer are the same cause both use energy manipulations. Mystique is always mystique though in different shape. Copycat can do the mystique thing but if she touches someone she can become that person down to the genome while keeping her mind as well. Also a big bang reveal to leave on sounds more bendis than slott to me, his reveals are more odd and cool.

This is a book about D listers, and I doubt anyone huge (especially Jean or Wanda) is gonna make their comeback here. It isn't what the book's about, and it's the exact type of thing Slott's gone against from the start, a "big" reveal would be all fluff and no substance.

The copycat idea is pretty lame.

I'd disagree that A:TI is about D listers. Its about a nice mixture of A,B,C,D listers..its the MIX that makes the book viable.

[moraldeficiency]

The copycat idea is pretty lame.

I'd disagree that A:TI is about D listers. Its about a nice mixture of A,B,C,D listers..its the MIX that makes the book viable.

Then what's your theory that fits what we know? I'm guessing you don't have one that doesn't involve magical ninja fighting skills being somehow jammed into wanda or jean along with extra powers and some unexplained reason why mutant zero has to rest after using her powers once. But hey, prove me wrong and give me anyone else who could fit the description.



Then you're reading a different book than the rest of us. The only mildly major player was skrull pym and he wasn't anywhere near the height of popularity. From the instructors to the students all the cast has been either cast aside characters, characters slott made up, or people once stuck in limbo. But prove me wrong on that also, tell me who these A list (A listers being people with their own book) that are on the team.

[Franklin Richards]

The Thing made a guest cameo. :D


:thing: :thing: :thing:

[moraldeficiency]

The Thing made a guest cameo. :D


:thing: :thing: :thing:

Cameo's don't count, cast does. I mean they've had Thing, spider-man, iron man in issues, but they weren't part of the team and slott couldn't just do whatever he wanted with them. If cameo's counted everyone with a failing book is an alister cause all failing books jam alisters in for cameos to pump up sales.

[Franklin Richards]

See :D


:thing: :thing: :thing:

[Brainiac 8]

A:TI wins for having an issue with the Sinister Syndicate...which was awesome. :up:

[moraldeficiency]

A:TI wins for having an issue with the Sinister Syndicate...which was awesome. :up:

half, but yes I agree. Hydroman needs more love.

That entire issue was awesome, then OMD happened, and I have no idea what actually happened now.

[RockSP]

That entire issue was awesome, then OMD happened, and I have no idea what actually happened now.

Heh.

[Brainiac 8]

half, but yes I agree. Hydroman needs more love.

That entire issue was awesome, then OMD happened, and I have no idea what actually happened now.


Peter had sex with Mephisto which made Mary Jane go lesbo. :down

[Dread]

I don't mean guest staring like that, I mean if the mission would be one where say deadpool, or spider-man or wolverine would be a great aid she could dupe them do some stuff but then have to retreat, you can get interplay and conflictions of emotions a plenty. It would become who's power will she use this issue and what will the consequences be? I think there's a lot of potential there.

It begs the question, though, why a shapeshifter needs a costume that hides her identity, when she can just shapeshift?

There are creative ways to do guest spots regardless. That is one of A:TI's strengths.

Very few people have no fear, and while he might not be a fighter if someone's fear is a fighter then he becomes that on steriods. I don't see much of a difference here, in fact trauma's more powerful because his powers don't have so many limitations and don't require him to immediately shut down after use.

Daredevil's the man without fear. And the only thing Wolverine likely is afraid of are paternity suits from Madripoor. ;)

Tramua's had a harder time in fights than Mutant Zero has thus far.

No one was clamoring for AtI at all.

Incorrect. THE INITIATIVE was a hot banner. Fans were clamouring to see how the 50 State Initiative was going to be brought about, and a title that showed the aftermath of the SHRA side winning Civil War. A:TI was that title and was advertised as such, and debuted in the Top 10 (and stayed in the Top 15 for a few issues). It was advertised as a "liked CW? See what happens NEXT!" title. Dan Slott getting to play with C and D list characters was a perk, and it also came with CW territory, which if anything dusted off a lot of lessor characters in both the tie-in's and the core mini.

It was an odd concept comprised of all D-Z listers, but it turns out taking these characters and putting them in the hands of someone that's a good writer equals a damn fun and good title. Think of the cast, none have been extremely popular at all, but that's why it's genius. ****, I like the 3D man now, I never thought I'd say that. Copycat would fit in more with this team than any major name.

That is not entirely true. Hank Pym was part of the regular cast until SI started and he was revealed as a Skrull after a good year's worth of issues. War Machine, who for a character who was "never popular" had his own series in the 90's for several years and was featured in a major motion picture (and has had an Oscar winning actor recast for him), was also part of the main cast for more than a year. Iron Man guest starred frequently. Justice is a character many 90's readers would recognize. The book has relied on original characters and D-Z listers in many areas, but it is only recently that some of their B-Listers have departed.

Plus, frankly, between the highs of THE INITIATIVE and WWH, A:TI has used crossovers to boost sales often. Without them, the core audience is about 55-50k, which is enough to remain in the Top 30-35. That's still great, but just putting things in perspective. During debut and crossovers, it almost scored double that last year.

In a way trauma and copycat are kinda similar in that they change shape but the boundries and abilities are vastly different. It's not even close to the heroes people.

Perhaps. You're more of an expert on Copycat than I.

None of the characters you've listed fits what we know about Mutant Zero. Even with your telekinesis theory (which is a pretty big streach) there's the fighting ability and need to rest after using their power. Also I don't see why any would be so loyal to gygrich.

Wanda's hex powers are always a wild card. She could alter the entire planet 4 years ago. Using "spurts" of that to make her Trinity (THE MATRIX) with swords is small figs. Between artificial powers and storytelling, anything can be explained. Besides, Wanda, Jean, and Maddie were the guesses most fans came up with; I'm just running with them. For all we know, Mutant Zero is MJ. :p

And I think the reveal will be one of those big characters, just like I said. But I think the actuality will be something different. The mystique comparison is only in terms of changing shape and that's where it ends. It's like saying cyclops and the silver surfer are the same cause both use energy manipulations. Mystique is always mystique though in different shape. Copycat can do the mystique thing but if she touches someone she can become that person down to the genome while keeping her mind as well. Also a big bang reveal to leave on sounds more bendis than slott to me, his reveals are more odd and cool.

Copycat and Mystique have far more similarities than Cyclops and Silver Surfer. Only I can offer an exaggeration and present it as a legitimate counterpoint around here. ;)

They're both blue female shape-shifting mutants who have been heavily involved with some X-Team or other. They both have emotional baggage and drawbacks to their powers. Both are combat experts.

You're right on that last note, only with a key addendum missing; Bendis assumes ALL of his reveals are Big Bang reveals. He thought the universe would buckle at Ronin as Echo. Instead it merely shrugged.

Mutant Zero has been a subplot longer than Ronin was, frankly. A big reveal was promised; it would be a shame to waste that capital.

This is a book about D listers, and I doubt anyone huge (especially Jean or Wanda) is gonna make their comeback here. It isn't what the book's about, and it's the exact type of thing Slott's gone against from the start, a "big" reveal would be all fluff and no substance.

On the other side, if no "big" characters or events ever happen here, the book could be seen as something where nothing major can happen. It did have a few major characters for it's first year and a half. Only recently has it started to move beyond that.

Plus, Jocasta is moving from this book to MIGHTY AVENGERS, which will have twice the readers despite Bendis leaving.

If Mutant Zero turned out to be a well known B-List character, it would reaffirm that even without crossovers, A:TI is a vital book to pay attention to for reasons beyond quality. Because, sadly, quality is not always enough. I have sometimes thought of A:TI as a MTU done right; offering lots of heroes teaming up but in a format and storyline that is vital instead of kitsch.

[moraldeficiency]

It begs the question, though, why a shapeshifter needs a costume that hides her identity, when she can just shapeshift?


Cause it looks cool? Cause she's supposed to be dead? Cause she's a secret gov. agent? To hide her real identity? To confuse opponents? Cause she doesn't want people like deadpool to know she's alive? Reason's unknown?

There are creative ways to do guest spots regardless. That is one of A:TI's strengths.


I'm not denying that, but this would be one more and without the hassle of actually dealing with that charcter's current writer.


Daredevil's the man without fear. And the only thing Wolverine likely is afraid of are paternity suits from Madripoor. ;)

That's not really true about daredevil, he's got some religious stuff and dead chick issues. And wolverine is afraid of legion/shadow king, being alone, soap and a haircut.

Tramua's had a harder time in fights than Mutant Zero has thus far.

Yes, but remember trauma didn’t/doesn’t want his powers and doesn’t like to use them. He originally wanted them gone and chose a job where he would only use them to help. So yeah a guy that doesn’t want to fight isn’t going to be a very good fighter. That said he did better against the hulk than most of the MU.

Incorrect. THE INITIATIVE was a hot banner. Fans were clamouring to see how the 50 State Initiative was going to be brought about, and a title that showed the aftermath of the SHRA side winning Civil War. A:TI was that title and was advertised as such, and debuted in the Top 10 (and stayed in the Top 15 for a few issues). It was advertised as a "liked CW? See what happens NEXT!" title. Dan Slott getting to play with C and D list characters was a perk, and it also came with CW territory, which if anything dusted off a lot of lessor characters in both the tie-in's and the core mini.

The idea was hot, but I remember when the implemention came about with all the no namers and it didn’t breed a want until people found out D listers could be cool. Advertisement isn’t an indicator of quality or want, it’s just want Marvel wants you to buy.

That is not entirely true. Hank Pym was part of the regular cast until SI started and he was revealed as a Skrull after a good year's worth of issues. War Machine, who for a character who was "never popular" had his own series in the 90's for several years and was featured in a major motion picture (and has had an Oscar winning actor recast for him), was also part of the main cast for more than a year. Iron Man guest starred frequently. Justice is a character many 90's readers would recognize. The book has relied on original characters and D-Z listers in many areas, but it is only recently that some of their B-Listers have departed.

Yes, but hank and jim were out of the spotlight for a while there. With hank getting bendisized into a standard wife beater and jim in seeming limbo. And really neither has had a series in a while. As for the New Warriors, they were just used as cannon fodder for Millar's Civil War because they could be. Iron Man has guest starred in just about every single marvel comic since civil war. And again guest stars don't count as cast.

Plus, frankly, between the highs of THE INITIATIVE and WWH, A:TI has used crossovers to boost sales often. Without them, the core audience is about 55-50k, which is enough to remain in the Top 30-35. That's still great, but just putting things in perspective. During debut and crossovers, it almost scored double that last year.

Actually they’ve used crossovers to further storylines (something rarely done). But I’m not denying the numbers, this is a book about D-listers after all.

Perhaps. You're more of an expert on Copycat than I.

Yeah, I liked the original X-Force and deadpool stories.

Wanda's hex powers are always a wild card. She could alter the entire planet 4 years ago. Using "spurts" of that to make her Trinity (THE MATRIX) with swords is small figs. Between artificial powers and storytelling, anything can be explained. Besides, Wanda, Jean, and Maddie were the guesses most fans came up with; I'm just running with them. For all we know, Mutant Zero is MJ. :p

Right wanda=god seems poor plot and something slott wouldn’t do. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but it “feels” wrong to me. I know everything can be explained I’m just thinking a good writer would want a good explaination. Look I'm probably wrong, but it's a big streach to say wanda or jean completely changed personalities, became ninjas, gained the power to have all the powers and for some strange reason need to rest after using any power. Could it be the case? Hell yes, christ spider-man just made a deal with the devil so it's fair game, it just doesn't seem like good writing.

Copycat and Mystique have far more similarities than Cyclops and Silver Surfer. Only I can offer an exaggeration and present it as a legitimate counterpoint around here. ;)

Well they’re both mutant chicks with shape changing abilities, but what they can do with them is worlds different. Their histories, experience and mentalities are complete opposites.

They're both blue female shape-shifting mutants who have been heavily involved with some X-Team or other. They both have emotional baggage and drawbacks to their powers. Both are combat experts.

yes in the same way everyone from Weapon X is the same. Wolverine, Deadpool, Agent Zero, Copycat, etc. But would you say wolverine and deadpool are the same?

You're right on that last note, only with a key addendum missing; Bendis assumes ALL of his reveals are Big Bang reveals. He thought the universe would buckle at Ronin as Echo. Instead it merely shrugged.

You’re still assuming bendis mentality in slott. He’s specifically said those shock tactics wouldn’t be used in AtI.

Mutant Zero has been a subplot longer than Ronin was, frankly. A big reveal was promised; it would be a shame to waste that capital.

It depends on what they do with it. Frankly if you break a lot of AtI’s storyline down to nuts and bolts without the how it doesn’t sound very interesting.

On the other side, if no "big" characters or events ever happen here, the book could be seen as something where nothing major can happen. It did have a few major characters for it's first year and a half. Only recently has it started to move beyond that.

Well that depends, the way I’m seeing it AtI is raising these D-listers into something credible. I might check out a book with 3D man and the skrull kill krew and I wouldn’t have before. There are plenty of “major” characters who I don’t care nearly as much about as the characters in this book. So as far as nothing major happening I guess it depends on who you ask.

Plus, Jocasta is moving from this book to MIGHTY AVENGERS, which will have twice the readers despite Bendis leaving.

Ok, and?

If Mutant Zero turned out to be a well known B-List character, it would reaffirm that even without crossovers, A:TI is a vital book to pay attention to for reasons beyond quality. Because, sadly, quality is not always enough. I have sometimes thought of A:TI as a MTU done right; offering lots of heroes teaming up but in a format and storyline that is vital instead of kitsch.

The reveal can’t be a well known B-list character based on his statements. He said even casual readers would know in the reveal.

I disagree, quality is enough. All A list characters started as unknowns, a lot of A list characters were just created in other books to be opponents and such (daredevil, punisher come to mind). You’re assuming that once a character is popular that’s it and they stay that way or that there’s a fixed amount of spots at the top. Truth is a good writer can make any character compelling and they can become important all by themselves.

[Dread]

Cause it looks cool? Cause she's supposed to be dead? Cause she's a secret gov. agent? To hide her real identity? To confuse opponents? Cause she doesn't want people like deadpool to know she's alive? Reason's unknown?

It would seem a little redundant to me. Like seeing Wolverine wear motorcycle helmets in cartoons when his skull is unbreakable and he regenerates. Go censorship boards!

That's not really true about daredevil, he's got some religious stuff and dead chick issues. And wolverine is afraid of legion/shadow king, being alone, soap and a haircut.

Shave and a hair-cut, TWWWOOOO BIIIITTSSS!

Yes, but remember trauma didn’t/doesn’t want his powers and doesn’t like to use them. He originally wanted them gone and chose a job where he would only use them to help. So yeah a guy that doesn’t want to fight isn’t going to be a very good fighter. That said he did better against the hulk than most of the MU.

I wouldn't go that far. I thought the ones who put up the most fight were Iron Man and Sentry, unless you count the collective X-Men teams.

The idea was hot, but I remember when the implemention came about with all the no namers and it didn’t breed a want until people found out D listers could be cool. Advertisement isn’t an indicator of quality or want, it’s just want Marvel wants you to buy.

The first issue sold 90-100k and was still selling above 85k by issue #5. Obviously the pitch combined with the demand and the talent involved worked.

(Sales numbers from Paul O'Brien's articles for THE BEAT website)

Yes, but hank and jim were out of the spotlight for a while there. With hank getting bendisized into a standard wife beater and jim in seeming limbo. And really neither has had a series in a while. As for the New Warriors, they were just used as cannon fodder for Millar's Civil War because they could be. Iron Man has guest starred in just about every single marvel comic since civil war. And again guest stars don't count as cast.

"Jim" had been involved in SENTINAL O*N*E* months before A:TI.

My point stands that the book did have solid B-list characters as cast or frequent guest stars and was advertised and written as being key to the MU.

Actually they’ve used crossovers to further storylines (something rarely done). But I’m not denying the numbers, this is a book about D-listers after all.

I agree that A:TI was able to use crossovers to further it's own stories. Of course, as a series that by nature has to be keyed into the MU, it sort of has to be involved in every event. But, yeah, Slott & Gage have done well in that regard.

Right wanda=god seems poor plot and something slott wouldn’t do. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but it “feels” wrong to me. I know everything can be explained I’m just thinking a good writer would want a good explaination. Look I'm probably wrong, but it's a big streach to say wanda or jean completely changed personalities, became ninjas, gained the power to have all the powers and for some strange reason need to rest after using any power. Could it be the case? Hell yes, christ spider-man just made a deal with the devil so it's fair game, it just doesn't seem like good writing.

It depends on how one plays it. For all we know, Mutant Zero is neither Wanda, Jean, Maddie, or Copycat and Slott is chuckling somewhere at the speculation. ;)

Well they’re both mutant chicks with shape changing abilities, but what they can do with them is worlds different. Their histories, experience and mentalities are complete opposites.

If you say so. I still say they are more similar than Cyclops & Silver Surfer.

yes in the same way everyone from Weapon X is the same. Wolverine, Deadpool, Agent Zero, Copycat, etc. But would you say wolverine and deadpool are the same?

Frankly, I have sometimes seen Deadpool as a result of one of Conan O'Brien's WHAT IF THEY MATED between Wolverine and Spider-Man. The Jackal strikes again!

I was never a big fan of Deadpool. He always just seemed to be one of those characters who tried too hard to be "cool". He has had his moments, though.

You’re still assuming bendis mentality in slott. He’s specifically said those shock tactics wouldn’t be used in AtI.

Slott was also willing to make Slapstick an attempted murderer with a dark side. He got a bit of criticism for that. I thought it was interesting, but some could consider it a shock tactic, especially after he lampooned that sort of subplot in GLA.

Well that depends, the way I’m seeing it AtI is raising these D-listers into something credible. I might check out a book with 3D man and the skrull kill krew and I wouldn’t have before. There are plenty of “major” characters who I don’t care nearly as much about as the characters in this book. So as far as nothing major happening I guess it depends on who you ask.

That's true. A:TI has done a good job of introducing new characters and dusting off some older ones from limbo and doing interesting things with them. Tarene better not be a Skrull, though.

Ok, and?

It could draw up interest in her A:TI issues when she moves to MA.

The reveal can’t be a well known B-list character based on his statements. He said even casual readers would know in the reveal.

Casual readers wouldn't know who Copycat is. Hardcore X-Readers barely know who Copycat is. And negating a "big" reveal with a "oh, it was only a shapeshifter" a few issues later (when Gage would be writing solo) would be seen as a cop-out.

I disagree, quality is enough. All A list characters started as unknowns, a lot of A list characters were just created in other books to be opponents and such (daredevil, punisher come to mind). You’re assuming that once a character is popular that’s it and they stay that way or that there’s a fixed amount of spots at the top. Truth is a good writer can make any character compelling and they can become important all by themselves.

Daredevil started out with his own comic book. You're right about Punisher. A better example would have been Hulk; his original series ended after 4 issues and he languished in guest stints and anthologies before getting his own book again. Of course, that was back when DC had more control over distribution, but I digress.

Naturally I agree about the good writer bits, and Slott is a good writer. I'm just not feelin' Copycat.

I read MIGHTY AVENGERS #19 today, and I sure hope Pham gets a better inker/colorist team once he starts drawin' for Slott's run. :o

[Mr. Green]

He didnt try to kill them. If he wanted them dead, they'd be dead. He was just proving a point.
Exactly. It pretty much spells that out completely at the end of WWH.

[Mr. Green]

I read MIGHTY AVENGERS #19 today, and I sure hope Pham gets a better inker/colorist team once he starts drawin' for Slott's run. :o
Yeah, I know! It was definitely worse than any other work I've seen Pham do but I agree -- I think it was the colorist more than anything that made it all look retarded.

[Eros]

Exactly. It pretty much spells that out completely at the end of WWH.

After he decimated half of New York, and beat numerous heroes half to death.

[Mr. Green]

What's your point?

[Eros]

What's your point?

That Hulk is a monster.

[TheCorpulent1]

Or at least a total dick. There are better ways to prove your non-lethal point than taking things to the very brink of lethality and then pulling back at the last second.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

yea but where would be the fun in that?

Also does anybody else think Samson is the Red Hulk:D

[kguillou]

I just wanna know how anything that's going on in Loeb's book has anything to do with WWH. Or did Marvel just choose to completely ignore that story? Can we at least have some closure?

[TheCorpulent1]

Banner was still in prison in Loeb's book. That's continuity of a sort, even though he broke out after like 5 seconds.

[moraldeficiency]

I wouldn't go that far. I thought the ones who put up the most fight were Iron Man and Sentry, unless you count the collective X-Men teams.

Sentry doesn't count everyone knows that. Iron Man did put out a better fight but then most of WWH was just ridiculous.


"Jim" had been involved in SENTINAL O*N*E* months before A:TI.

Yeah and that was blah at best.

My point stands that the book did have solid B-list characters as cast or frequent guest stars and was advertised and written as being key to the MU.

solid B listers? I guess, no real star power was used here, they even managed to keep wolverine out dispite the mandate.


It depends on how one plays it. For all we know, Mutant Zero is neither Wanda, Jean, Maddie, or Copycat and Slott is chuckling somewhere at the speculation. ;)

It's gotta be someone big on the reveal (or someone that appears to be someone big).


Frankly, I have sometimes seen Deadpool as a result of one of Conan O'Brien's WHAT IF THEY MATED between Wolverine and Spider-Man. The Jackal strikes again!

I was never a big fan of Deadpool. He always just seemed to be one of those characters who tried too hard to be "cool". He has had his moments, though.

Boo. (current deadpool has been excellent, you should try to enjoy fun)

Slott was also willing to make Slapstick an attempted murderer with a dark side. He got a bit of criticism for that. I thought it was interesting, but some could consider it a shock tactic, especially after he lampooned that sort of subplot in GLA.

Actually I went back and checked out some issues of Slapstick because I didn't remember him. He actually came very close to killing people on many occasions, including eating and spitting bullets in a crowded room. After seeing some of those issues, Slott had him right and we just don't remember him all that well.


It could draw up interest in her A:TI issues when she moves to MA.

Maybe, but I doubt it.

Casual readers wouldn't know who Copycat is. Hardcore X-Readers barely know who Copycat is. And negating a "big" reveal with a "oh, it was only a shapeshifter" a few issues later (when Gage would be writing solo) would be seen as a cop-out.

cop-out? ok, but if done right leading to better stories and plot....that I'd be fine with. Besides do you really want jean grey or wanda sucking all fun out of this book?

Daredevil started out with his own comic book. You're right about Punisher. A better example would have been Hulk; his original series ended after 4 issues and he languished in guest stints and anthologies before getting his own book again. Of course, that was back when DC had more control over distribution, but I digress.

My bad on daredevil.

[Dread]

Yeah, I know! It was definitely worse than any other work I've seen Pham do but I agree -- I think it was the colorist more than anything that made it all look retarded.

Yeah. I mean I would have presumed it was Pham, but that sketch looked better than this issue. Inks and Colors matter a great deal, especially in the digital age.

After he decimated half of New York, and beat numerous heroes half to death.

That Hulk is a monster.

Or at least a total dick. There are better ways to prove your non-lethal point than taking things to the very brink of lethality and then pulling back at the last second.

Exactly, and that is why placing Hulk on an official team right now seems very problematic. He caused a mass evacuation! Billions in damages! Emergency work to keep the island from collapsing! And of course, not to mention pummeling "official" teams like the Avengers and the Fantastic Four. Hell, zealot types could even try to link him to the brief return of the "demonic" vigilante, Ghost Rider, who tried to fight the Hulk. Even Iron Man may not be able to stand in front of a podium and go, "Uh, he's all better now", especially since folks like Hulk were supposedly the point of the SHRA (or at least part of the arguments).

On the other hand, Hulk did found the Avengers and left when he found out they all hated him. For all we know, Iron Man and some of the other founders (like Pym, if he indeed is on the roster) may feel responsible for Hulk, maybe wondering if he would have remained so unstable if he had found acceptance. Or at least that is one angle besides, "having the strongest one there is works for threats". And at least Hulk won't curl into a fetal position and cry like Sentry does at awkward moments.

Sentry doesn't count everyone knows that. Iron Man did put out a better fight but then most of WWH was just ridiculous.

It counts as a technical standpoint. Yeah, a lot of characters jobbed to Hulk and didn't fight him very smart. Why not just build a machine or armor that absorbs gamma? Titannus figured that out, and he was a brainwashed minion.

solid B listers? I guess, no real star power was used here, they even managed to keep wolverine out dispite the mandate.

But not Spider-Man. ;) I still wonder what Slott's ASM would have been like without BND.

It's gotta be someone big on the reveal (or someone that appears to be someone big).

I just would not be a fan of a bait-and-switch. If you're going to do a reveal, do it once and do it right. That's what usually works best.

Boo. (current deadpool has been excellent, you should try to enjoy fun)

I enjoy fun. Deadpool just usually wasn't my bag. Like I said, he's had his moments, though.

Actually I went back and checked out some issues of Slapstick because I didn't remember him. He actually came very close to killing people on many occasions, including eating and spitting bullets in a crowded room. After seeing some of those issues, Slott had him right and we just don't remember him all that well.

I know about that. But what Slapstick did to Gauntlet was premeditated and more chilling. Granted, he gave a decent reason for the shift later on (Steve Harmon has been in his Slapstick form too long and it is effecting his sanity), but like I said, some people were put off by the move. I wasn't.

cop-out? ok, but if done right leading to better stories and plot....that I'd be fine with. Besides do you really want jean grey or wanda sucking all fun out of this book?

Hey, it depends on how you write them, right? Jeff Parker is able to write Jean in X-MEN FIRST CLASS and she is a lot of fun.

Besides, Wanda appears to be a given for the MIGHTY roster, so Slott may get to write her regardless. :)

[moraldeficiency]

But not Spider-Man. ;) I still wonder what Slott's ASM would have been like without BND.



I know about that. But what Slapstick did to Gauntlet was premeditated and more chilling. Granted, he gave a decent reason for the shift later on (Steve Harmon has been in his Slapstick form too long and it is effecting his sanity), but like I said, some people were put off by the move. I wasn't.



Hey, it depends on how you write them, right? Jeff Parker is able to write Jean in X-MEN FIRST CLASS and she is a lot of fun.

Besides, Wanda appears to be a given for the MIGHTY roster, so Slott may get to write her regardless. :)

I wish I could have the current team and ideas minus the ridiculous OMD.

Actually after going back, what slapstick did really wasn't out of character.

X-Men haven't been fun for me in a long long time. Really long time. I dread having to pick up most X-Books whenever they have an important issue cause inevitably everyone whines, everyone frets over their all important decissions, people act very serious and kill someone in a shocking way and I feel cheated.

I don't think that art has anything to do with mighty, I think it's a herring.

[Mr. Green]

Or at least a total dick. There are better ways to prove your non-lethal point than taking things to the very brink of lethality and then pulling back at the last second.
He saved the Earth from a satellite designed by SHIELD and after doing so they tricked him into a spaceship that took him to a planet where he was made a slave and after he saved that world the ship exploded and destroyed everything he cared about including his wife and unborn child (or so he thought).

Even though it wasn't the Illuminati's intention to send him to Sakaar and even though it wasn't their fault, Hulk didn't know that and I think his reaction was pretty justified.

[Anubis]

Actually, the thing he saved the Earth from was the trick. So technically, he didn't save the Earth that time.

[TheCorpulent1]

He saved the Earth from a satellite designed by SHIELD and after doing so they tricked him into a spaceship that took him to a planet where he was made a slave and after he saved that world the ship exploded and destroyed everything he cared about including his wife and unborn child (or so he thought).

Even though it wasn't the Illuminati's intention to send him to Sakaar and even though it wasn't their fault, Hulk didn't know that and I think his reaction was pretty justified.
I think you're probably a crazy person, then. I hope nothing bad ever happens to you, for the sake of the people who live near you if nothing else. ;)

[Mr. Green]

Heh, fair enough.
Actually, the thing he saved the Earth from was the trick. So technically, he didn't save the Earth that time.
It was a trick but if you read the Illuminati special they say that the satellite was having problems that needed to be addressed. They were knocking out two birds with one stone.

[moraldeficiency]

He saved the Earth from a satellite designed by SHIELD and after doing so they tricked him into a spaceship that took him to a planet where he was made a slave and after he saved that world the ship exploded and destroyed everything he cared about including his wife and unborn child (or so he thought).

Even though it wasn't the Illuminati's intention to send him to Sakaar and even though it wasn't their fault, Hulk didn't know that and I think his reaction was pretty justified.

So you're justified if you just go off half cocked without any proof of intention, kick a city out of their houses, destroy their property and beat down the people that have devoted their lives to keeping innocents safe? You wouldn't think proof or evidence is needed? Would it now be fair for say Doctor Strange to make the hulk into say a butterfly cause he was attacked and hurt unjustifibly and the hulk broke his hands through a dishonest trick on a friend? You'd be cool with that?

[Brainiac 8]

he probably would. :p

[moraldeficiency]

I would buy fifty copies and just hand them out as people walked in saying, "Ok, now hulk's a tiny little butterfly, please shut the **** up."

[Brainiac 8]

I would buy fifty copies and just hand them out as people walked in saying, "Ok, now hulk's a tiny little butterfly, please shut the **** up."


HAHAHA! :up:

"Hulkifly Smash!"

:D

[Mr. Green]

Let me first say that I'm not going to try to get into a real-world debate of morals -- my points apply strictly to the MU and the context of Planet Hulk and WWH.
So you're justified if you just go off half cocked without any proof of intention, kick a city out of their houses, destroy their property and beat down the people that have devoted their lives to keeping innocents safe? You wouldn't think proof or evidence is needed?
Yeah, Hulk messed up. But don't forget all the times he's saved the world and then his "friends" stab him in the back by shooting him into space. They call him hero one second and monster the next. It's a part of the Hulk's character that makes him interesting and unique to other heroes. I don't really care if he does stuff that isn't completely "right" because it's what makes the character who he is.
Would it now be fair for say Doctor Strange to make the hulk into say a butterfly cause he was attacked and hurt unjustifibly and the hulk broke his hands through a dishonest trick on a friend? You'd be cool with that?
I'm not sure what you're asking. Would I be cool with Strange turning Hulk into a butterfly? No. But of course, that would be completely OOC and it would never happen anyway so I guess I don't have to worry.

[TheCorpulent1]

For every other heroic thing the Hulk's done, there's a rampage that resulted in tons of property damage and emotional turmoil. You say you like the give-and-take between monster and hero that's part of the Hulk's character; well, the consequences of his actions reflect that as well. Sometimes other heroes welcome him into the fold and accept that he wants to help, other times they're forced to fight him in order to stop him from damaging property and threatening people. Regardless of the good he's done, the bad weighs more heavily. Merrily going about their business while the Hulk is being all unpredictable and dangerous a lot of the time would be akin to a police department's Internal Affairs Division letting a cop who shoots one of every dozen people he helps off the hook 'cause, golly, he means well and he mostly does a good job.

[moraldeficiency]

Yeah, Hulk messed up. But don't forget all the times he's saved the world and then his "friends" stab him in the back by shooting him into space. They call him hero one second and monster the next. It's a part of the Hulk's character that makes him interesting and unique to other heroes. I don't really care if he does stuff that isn't completely "right" because it's what makes the character who he is.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Would I be cool with Strange turning Hulk into a butterfly? No. But of course, that would be completely OOC and it would never happen anyway so I guess I don't have to worry.

So saving the world makes mistakes ok. So all the times Doc Strange, Reed Richards, Tony Stark and Black Bolt have saved the world (and hulk) means what??? Hulk should get a pass but they shouldn't?

Maybe if the hulk stopped destroying everything and making people homeless all over the world he wouldn't be considered such a monster.

I'm saying could doc strange go off half cocked and just magic the hulk into something small and insignificant, since he's been wronged severely by the hulk. Would his overreaction be justified?

OOC? That's funny coming from the way the hulk acted. Mr I'm-sick-of-people-always-blaming-me-for-stuff gets smart and powerful and the first thing he does? Recklessly blaming others for something someone else did then running home to destroy new york and make a lot of people homeless while disabling most of the heroes and paving the way for the skrull invasion. Frankly after this I think anyone in the MU is justified doing whatever they want to the hulk. He's shown that he'll not only do the exact thing he blames others for, but that he doesn't even need to see a shred of evidence, he'll just randomly blame people for his mistakes. And he'll do it in a way that the whole planet will understand just what a dick he is. Frankly he's smarter when he's stupid.

The only thing the hulk could have done to redeem himself, kill the sentry, he didn't do so he's dead to me since Planet Hulk (the last good hulk story).

[Eros]

Sorry

[Dread]

I wish I could have the current team and ideas minus the ridiculous OMD.

Actually after going back, what slapstick did really wasn't out of character.

X-Men haven't been fun for me in a long long time. Really long time. I dread having to pick up most X-Books whenever they have an important issue cause inevitably everyone whines, everyone frets over their all important decissions, people act very serious and kill someone in a shocking way and I feel cheated.

I don't think that art has anything to do with mighty, I think it's a herring.

"You much chop down the MIGHTIEST tree in the forest with...A HERRING!"

Kidding.

It is funny you should mention the X-Books. I flipped through UXM and I have to only comment on the ridiculousness of trying to create a "mutant community" in San Fran considering there are only "a few hundred" mutants worldwide (and most are in the U.S.) and them acting like it is a bold new thing when Mutant Town was a plot point for several years, and even had it's own police district (before the residents were depowered, and the town blown up). Joe Q gives Bendis a lot of credit for dethroning the X-Men as Marvel's #1 franchise, but M-Day has proven to be a bitter poison pill for over 3 years now. It destroys more story opportunities than it creates, and makes the mutants next to meaningless compared to other superhumans because there are fewer of them than there are panda bears.

As for THE HULK DEBATE, let me get in some opinions. I agree with the idea (and fact in most stories) that often times Hulk is misunderstood or seemingly justified in some of his rampages; how many times has he begged the military to leave him alone? How many times have other forces provoked a fight with him? The superhero community has also been responsible for that to some degree; many times, regardless of Hulk's current personality, they are willing to throw him at a target as a last ditch effort, then seek to contain him or get rid of him afterward. The "just get Hulk angry and throw him at the threat" worked against Onslaught, didn't it? Not even Thor could take him down, but Hulk tore his wonky armor open. There are, of course, other examples.

On the other hand, of course, Hulk's rampages have destroyed property, endangered lives at the least, or, if you believe Bendis, ended some lives. World War Hulk in particular would not be an easy thing to shrug off. He invaded NYC with a cabal of aliens. He caused billions of damages, pummeled and attempted to kill a good dozen or so registered heroes (just because he "pulled back at the last minute" would not absolve him in the eyes of the law; if I pummel someone to the brink of death and then hold back the killing blow to "teach them a lesson", I could still be charged with attempted murder). He incited riots with a lot of the other people rooting for him. He kidnapped heroes. His damages resulted in last ditch repair efforts to literally keep Manhattan island from falling apart, which would have rendered some 8-9 million people homeless. Even such, they all had to be evacuated (unless you buy some of the tie-in's that claimed some of the poor folks were left to deliberately and intentionally die, because Bush/The Government is evil). Banner was kept in custody over this act, as a military prisoner.

The general public believes Hulk to be a monster at best. Sticking him on an official roster would be seen as reckless at best and outright criminal at worst in the eyes of the public and probably the law. After all, the average MU citizen doesn't know he had a movie out this year. :p

Hulk's not evil (at least not usually; he does have a "Devil Hulk" personality). But he has engaged in plenty of criminal acts over the years besides WWH. How about when he lost Banner's mind and literally took a hostage to gain an advantage over Thor?

Besides, look at things from Hulk's perspective. Why would he trust the superheroes? A lot of WWH was built on the fact that he didn't, and never did. They've hated him since Avengers #2, and Hulk knows it. Every time they have seemingly embraced him, they consider him a threat the next moment afterwards. Part of why Hulk easily assumed the tragedy at Sakaar was their fault was because of all the years of past mistrust. Miek played on that. I'd not only need a damn good reason for Hulk being allowed on the team, but for Hulk to even agree to it.

[TheCorpulent1]

So saving the world makes mistakes ok. So all the times Doc Strange, Reed Richards, Tony Stark and Black Bolt have saved the world (and hulk) means what??? Hulk should get a pass but they shouldn't?
Haha, they should've included this argument in World War Hulk.

Hulk: How dare you shoot me into space with a spaceship that is capable of blowing up even though you had absolutely nothing to do with the actual detonation of the ship in tragically close proximity to my super-awesome new family? I've saved the world, you know!
Iron Man: Yeah, big deal, we've all saved the world here, pal. The difference is, we actually meant to every time.

[Eros]

Haha, they should've included this argument in World War Hulk.

Hulk: How dare you shoot me into space with a spaceship that is capable of blowing up even though you had absolutely nothing to do with the actual detonation of the ship in tragically close proximity to my super-awesome new family? I've saved the world, you know!
Iron Man: Yeah, big deal, we've all saved the world here, pal. The difference is, we actually meant to every time.


Thats sounds like a whedonverse conversation between Angel and Spike.

[TheCorpulent1]

Being compared to Whedon after writing dialogue in like 2 minutes is pretty cool. :up:

[Dread]

Only it didn't take 4 months for those lines to see print, because you keep getting saddled by slow artists.

What? Someone had to say it. ;)

[fifthfiend]

Joe Q gives Bendis a lot of credit for dethroning the X-Men as Marvel's #1 franchise

Seriously?

I mean I just don't know what on earth he's supposed to be credited with there, when he did it by grabbing said franchise by the throat and drowning it in a bathtub.

[Dread]

Seriously?

I mean I just don't know what on earth he's supposed to be credited with there, when he did it by grabbing said franchise by the throat and drowning it in a bathtub.

It was all about "getting the genie back in the bottle" after all.

I mean getting Avengers as #1 has helped enhance the rest of the universe, but did the X-Men really need such a bitter pill?

It merely was another example is that the worst editorial decisions come when an EIC orders something not for any rational reason besides a personal dislike. M-Day, One More Day, DiDio's obsession with the Silver Age no one under 35 remembers or cares about, etc. Sometimes, some objectivity is in order to run good stories.

[fifthfiend]

The kicker of it is M-Day could have worked - or I mean, worked in the Civil War context of "the event itself was utterly craptacular, but at least it ended up somewhere that a good writer could conceivably work with" - if they'd picked some passably sane number of mutants to leave powered. A couple, maybe ten thousand, hell, any number of 'em big enough that you couldn't fit the entire mutant species inside a large college lecture hall would have allowed them at least a shred of dramatic viability.

[Dread]

I think if they had stuck with the ideas Morrison had introduced, or reintroduced, or modernized, during his run, when the X-Men was actually selling in the Top 10 monthly without the aid of crossovers, the X-Men would be better off. There was a way to present those ideas only in a way that wasn't as polarizing to long-term fans. Instead, Marvel pretty much spent several years tearing those ideas asunder. The X-Men can't be part of a mutant community when there are so few mutants, they virtually ARE the community. I mean, they may as well be the Inhumans. That squad compromises most of all the Inhumans on Earth, and the X-Men could claim a majority of the mutants now (especially if you count former members or part time members). It doesn't work, and it seems every creative team either struggles with it or spends a year in space to ignore it.

[Mr. Green]

So saving the world makes mistakes ok. So all the times Doc Strange, Reed Richards, Tony Stark and Black Bolt have saved the world (and hulk) means what??? Hulk should get a pass but they shouldn't?
Let me start buy saying that this is ironic as hell given your name.

Anyway, I'm not trying to justify what Hulk did to you. He doesn't do the right thing all the time, he isn't Superman -- THAT'S WHY I LIKE HIM. He isn't a hero. He's a badass who beats the crap out of people.
Maybe if the hulk stopped destroying everything and making people homeless all over the world he wouldn't be considered such a monster.
It's a comic book and I'm glad the comic book people are homeless. I want to read about Hulk destroying things on a massive scale.
I'm saying could doc strange go off half cocked and just magic the hulk into something small and insignificant, since he's been wronged severely by the hulk. Would his overreaction be justified?
Well so far he's banished Hulk into another dimension and shot him into space and, after all the times he's pleaded Hulk for help in the Defenders days, that's an ass**** move.
OOC? That's funny coming from the way the hulk acted. Mr I'm-sick-of-people-always-blaming-me-for-stuff gets smart and powerful and the first thing he does? Recklessly blaming others for something someone else did then running home to destroy new york and make a lot of people homeless while disabling most of the heroes and paving the way for the skrull invasion. Frankly after this I think anyone in the MU is justified doing whatever they want to the hulk. He's shown that he'll not only do the exact thing he blames others for, but that he doesn't even need to see a shred of evidence, he'll just randomly blame people for his mistakes. And he'll do it in a way that the whole planet will understand just what a dick he is. Frankly he's smarter when he's stupid.
There's a superhero relief fund and Damage Control repaired the city. So nobody was homeless. And why the hell are you so mad about this anyway? You obviously like heroes who are real good guys that always do the right thing. I don't. So when Hulk gets tricked and shot into space, I look forward to Hulk coming back and beating the crap out of the people responsible.
The only thing the hulk could have done to redeem himself, kill the sentry, he didn't do so he's dead to me since Planet Hulk (the last good hulk story).
You obviously didn't understand the character to begin with if you were surprised by the Hulk acting rashly, acting out of anger, beating up heroes, etc.

[moraldeficiency]

Let me start buy saying that this is ironic as hell given your name.

That's not ironic (robot devil reference, if you get it five cool points)

Anyway, I'm not trying to justify what Hulk did to you. He doesn't do the right thing all the time, he isn't Superman -- THAT'S WHY I LIKE HIM. He isn't a hero. He's a badass who beats the crap out of people.

Hulk hasn't done much too me except waste my money recently. Yeah I get it, he's the dick kid on the playground that makes others do as he says, he's nelson. You idolize nelson.

It's a comic book and I'm glad the comic book people are homeless. I want to read about Hulk destroying things on a massive scale.

Good, but as long as you recognize he goes around making people homeless cause he doesn't care, don't act indignant when people shoot him into space. He deserved it.

Well so far he's banished Hulk into another dimension and shot him into space and, after all the times he's pleaded Hulk for help in the Defenders days, that's an ass**** move.

oh heavens, you mean doc strange actually tried to give the hulk what he's always complaining about? That bastard! and to be fair most of the defenders missions were to save the earth which hulk was on, so he was "pleading" for the hulk to help save his own life.

There's a superhero relief fund and Damage Control repaired the city. So nobody was homeless. And why the hell are you so mad about this anyway? You obviously like heroes who are real good guys that always do the right thing. I don't. So when Hulk gets tricked and shot into space, I look forward to Hulk coming back and beating the crap out of the people responsible.

Really they instantly repair all houses perfectly? No dead family pets or ruined herilooms, no dust making people sick or lack of electricity causing old people to die from heat/cold? So they use magic, huh?

I'm not mad, I'm just saying the hulk's a dick who deserves to be shot into space cause he's exactly everything people think he is.

And now I look forward to these people the hulk wrongly accused turning him into a harmless little butterfly.

You obviously didn't understand the character to begin with if you were surprised by the Hulk acting rashly, acting out of anger, beating up heroes, etc.

Yeah, here I read planet hulk and actually believed what Pak said about this hulk being smart and competant and a leader. I should have realized he's always gonna just be a stupid dick in any situation.

[Doc Destruction]

OH NO YOU DIDN'T!

Do NOT start another Hulk pissing contest argument. PLEASE.

[moraldeficiency]

OH NO YOU DIDN'T!

Do NOT start another Hulk pissing contest argument. PLEASE.

we're already kinda there, I didn't start it though. If you want there are other topics you can talk about though such as:

how much the sentry sucks
your favorite food/tv show
poo

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

Or at least a total dick. There are better ways to prove your non-lethal point than taking things to the very brink of lethality and then pulling back at the last second.


Yes there are better ways to deal with things but the Hulk is very different than a normal human being. You act like he has the pschye of a normal human, you cat like Hulk's brain acts as a normal human being. Hulk is an aspect of Banners personality, the part that is always angry,mad, or enraged. The way I've always looked at it is, that Hulk in any form gray, green, red, or blue, he will always lean (more like fall) towards much more aggressive or violent solution.

And the only reason he took it to the brink was because he thought the Illuminati did it. Yes he should've thought differently, but he didn't, and at that point there was really no other reason to believe it was anybody else. Then he pulled out, and deep down just like Amadeus Cho and Rick Jones knew he really wasn't a killer, Hulk knew he wasn't either, and that is a Hulk in one of his most controlled states, the angriest he's ever been.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

So you're justified if you just go off half cocked without any proof of intention, kick a city out of their houses, destroy their property and beat down the people that have devoted their lives to keeping innocents safe? You wouldn't think proof or evidence is needed? Would it now be fair for say Doctor Strange to make the hulk into say a butterfly cause he was attacked and hurt unjustifibly and the hulk broke his hands through a dishonest trick on a friend? You'd be cool with that?

Doctor Strange getting beat up and getting his fingers broken is not the same as what the Hulk went through when he got sent to Sakaar. Hulk took a horrible situation, saved a planet, became a hero than had it all taken away from him. Banner has lost Betty, Hulk has lost his Queen, Doc lost a little bit of dexterity in his fingers, it's not the same.

[fifthfiend]

we're already kinda there, I didn't start it though. If you want there are other topics you can talk about though such as:

how much the sentry sucks
your favorite food/tv show
poo

I think they're talking Sentry in another thread and fecaphilia isn't my thing so I'm going to throw in that Pushing Daisies is an utterly delightful television program, especially to the extent that any given scene features Chi McBride.

[Anubis]

Yeah, Pushing Daisies is awesome.

[TheCorpulent1]

Emerson Cod makes me chuckle at least once in every scene he's in.

[moraldeficiency]

Doctor Strange getting beat up and getting his fingers broken is not the same as what the Hulk went through when he got sent to Sakaar. Hulk took a horrible situation, saved a planet, became a hero than had it all taken away from him. Banner has lost Betty, Hulk has lost his Queen, Doc lost a little bit of dexterity in his fingers, it's not the same.

If my friend buys me a house in tullum and gives me a first class plane ticket there because he knows that's my favorite place and I'm wanted for crimes that would lock me up forever and I go but along the way the plane crashes, it's not my friend's fault. If while I'm there I meet someone that kills my wife, it's not my friend's fault. I don't get to buy a gun, burn down my friend's entire town just to shoot his kneecaps out to teach him a lesson. This makes my friend a good person that tried to help me, and makes me a stupid dick unworthy of being friend's with someone like that.

Also doc strange confessed, apologized, tried to help his friend only to be betrayed. Hulk hasn't been anything resembling a man about any of his massive mistakes in WWH, everything happened to him, nothing's been his fault. For the strongest guy around he whines more than my sister while accepting less responsibility.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

If you got to choose the new Mighty Avengers line-up after SI who would it be?

8 Avengers

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

If my friend buys me a house in tullum and gives me a first class plane ticket there because he knows that's my favorite place and I'm wanted for crimes that would lock me up forever and I go but along the way the plane crashes, it's not my friend's fault. If while I'm there I meet someone that kills my wife, it's not my friend's fault. I don't get to buy a gun, burn down my friend's entire town just to shoot his kneecaps out to teach him a lesson. This makes my friend a good person that tried to help me, and makes me a stupid dick unworthy of being friend's with someone like that.

Also doc strange confessed, apologized, tried to help his friend only to be betrayed. Hulk hasn't been anything resembling a man about any of his massive mistakes in WWH, everything happened to him, nothing's been his fault. For the strongest guy around he whines more than my sister while accepting less responsibility.


You see it your way I'll see it my way.

If my friend sends me somewhere cause he thinks its best for me and doesnt even ask me, I would be pissed at my friend. No its not my friends fault my plane crashed in a hostile area, but it is my friends fault for putting me in that predicament. What if your friend made you get on one of the 9/11 planes, cause he thougt it was best for you to get home a couple hours earlier, it's not your friends fault that you got on the plane but it is bacause of him that you where in that prediciment, he didnt ask you when you wanted to leave he just made the decision for you. My point is that nobody should ever choose whats best for you without consulting you first. A friend isnt a friend if there gonna exile me from everybody I care about cause they think thats whats best for me.

Get hunted by the government your whole life, get everything taken from you that you care about and see if you dont whine more than one of those spoiled *****es on MTV's Sweet Sixteen. You act as if the things hulks gone through dont take a toll on the mind.

[TheCorpulent1]

The Hulk's always claimed he wanted to be left alone. His friends were sending him to an uninhabited, tranquil planet where he could be alone and at peace. They were doing exactly what he always claimed he wanted.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

If he wanted it so bad why didnt they ask him?

[moraldeficiency]

If my friend sends me somewhere cause he thinks its best for me and doesnt even ask me, I would be pissed at my friend. No its not my friends fault my plane crashed in a hostile area, but it is my friends fault for putting me in that predicament. What if your friend made you get on one of the 9/11 planes, cause he thougt it was best for you to get home a couple hours earlier, it's not your friends fault that you got on the plane but it is bacause of him that you where in that prediciment, he didnt ask you when you wanted to leave he just made the decision for you. My point is that nobody should ever choose whats best for you without consulting you first. A friend isnt a friend if there gonna exile me from everybody I care about cause they think thats whats best for me.

I see where you're going, but your analogy fails in many regards. First off the hulk was blasted into space because he had to be dealt with and it was that or killing him. So I'll rework your analogy to actually fit and then answer:

If my friend sends me somewhere cause I'm wanted for multiple murders and will go to the death penalty and doesnt even ask me, I would be pissed at my friend. No its not my friends fault my plane crashed in a hostile area, but it is my friends fault for putting me in that predicament. What if your friend made you get on one of the 9/11 planes, cause you were about to get shot by the police, it's not your friends fault that you got on the plane but it is bacause of him that you where in that prediciment, he didnt ask you when you wanted to leave he just made the decision for you.

^ I wouldn't be mad at my friend considering the reason, if I didn't want to get on that plane it would be because I was acting crazy and sometimes to be a good friend you do something that's good for the person but bad for the friendship. That's how you put others first.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

I kinda wanna sky dive, my friends know that, but would I want them to book me for skydiving without any chance of backing out, without asking me? No! Would I be pissed if my parachute didnt pull until in was to late and it left me paralyzed, yes I would be. I wouldn't care if there intentions where good cause they made decisions about my life without talking to me first, that ended up effeting my life in VERY negative ways. How do you not see what i'm saying?

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

[quote=moraldeficiency;15852703]I see where you're going, but your analogy fails in many regards. First off the hulk was blasted into space because he had to be dealt with and it was that or killing him.
[quote]

Dude, how many heroes/villians could be dealt with the same way. They let Dr. Doom just chill in Latveria, they let a de-powered Magneto walk the earth. These men are actual villians, whether there motives are good or not they have done downright villianous things. Why haven't the Illumiinati ever gone this far with actual villians, why do they go this far with someone they know is really a good person, all these men knew Banner and they just said " we're tired of dealing with you, we can deal with Dr. Doom being on earth but no you Banner." thats so ****ing stupid. That would be like my friends choosing to exile me cause I have some problems over O.J. Simpson.

[Anubis]

No it wouldn't. Your analogies are terrible.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, in short: Doom's not stupid like the Hulk is. They've done similar things to Doom. They tossed his ass back to the Heroes Reborn Earth and he wound up basically becoming king of North America there before coming back to the 616 Earth. Reed ultimately banished him to Hell in "Unthinkable" and he hitched a ride back to Earth with Mjolnir. Doom's never been shot off to some other world because Doom's not dumb enough to let himself be shot off to some other world.

[Franklin Richards]

Doom's Sakaar would have been a thing of beauty.


:doom: :doom: :doom:

[TheCorpulent1]

For real, he probably would've knocked off the Red King within the first ten minutes and established a utopia within another month.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

Banner is not stupid either.

[Anubis]

But the Hulk is....sometimes.

[TheCorpulent1]

No, but the Hulk is extremely stupid and Banner seems to spend most of his time as the Hulk.

[Anubis]

For real, he probably would've knocked off the Red King within the first ten minutes and established a utopia within another month.

Then came back with an armada and eventually get his ass kicked by the FF.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

Also this isn't about Doom, its about the point of what they've done so dont maitpulate what is being said. Also if they've done it with Doom and it hasn't worked why would it work for anybody else? It's a double-edged swored, they should've known better, but they didn't cause they where tio worried thing about whats best for somebody else.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

No, but the Hulk is extremely stupid and Banner seems to spend most of his time as the Hulk.

It's not Banner had a choice on Sakaar.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, clearly it would work for the Hulk. If not for the existing Shadow technology on Sakaar, he would've been stuck there forever. Doom could do all the stuff he did because he's f***ing Doom, he's the smartest man alive.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

No it wouldn't. Your analogies are terrible.


Yea I know, sorry I'm not as smart and witty as you, I'm so jealous that my analogies suck but they still get the point across.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

Well, clearly it would work for the Hulk. If not for the existing Shadow technology on Sakaar, he would've been stuck there forever. Doom could do all the stuff he did because he's f***ing Doom, he's the smartest man alive.

And Hulk Smashes things, big deal.

[Franklin Richards]

In a "not too distant" future,
Next Sunday A.D.
There was a guy named Hulk
Not too different from you or me,
He worked at the Gamma Institute,
Just another guy in a purple jumpsuit,
He did a good job "cleaning" up the place,
But the Illuminati didn't like him
so they shot him into space!

We'll kill his entire family,
every alien we can find!
And he'll have to sit and watch it all
and we'll monitor his mind.
Now keep in mind, Hulk can return
to the Earth in the end.
He'll fly right back and get real mad
and kill his former friends!

Iron-Man!
Black Bolt!
Reed Richards!
Straaaaaaaaaaange!!!

If you're wondering how he'll ever win
considering his dismal past.
Repeat to yourself, "It's just a comic."
"I should really just relax."

Oh Planet Hulk / World War Hulk 3000!




:thing: :doom: :thing:

[Anubis]

Heh.

[moraldeficiency]

Yea I know, sorry I'm not as smart and witty as you, I'm so jealous that my analogies suck but they still get the point across.

If your analogy is bad it doesn't get the point across, that's exactely what a bad analogy fails to do.

And you brought up doom (in another awful analogy) then got upset when people talked about YOUR point. That's like me shocking my balls with the car battery cause I don't like american idol.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

I didn't even get mad, like I said I see it my way and you see it your way.

No joke, I wish I could come up with a better analogy, but I can't so I'm not gonna try and make you understand so don't try and tell me I'm wrong for having my opinion.

[Mr. Green]

Hulk hasn't done much too me except waste my money recently. Yeah I get it, he's the dick kid on the playground that makes others do as he says, he's nelson. You idolize nelson.
No need to get condescending because my favorite superhero is a character you don't like. It's annoying.
Good, but as long as you recognize he goes around making people homeless cause he doesn't care, don't act indignant when people shoot him into space. He deserved it.
I realize there are two sides to this story and I think they were both represented pretty equally in WWH. Cho made the argument for Hulk and others like the Illuminati made the case against him. If you want to ignore this, fine. But it's ignoring the POINT of WWH. Remember when he had all those people "testifying" against the Illuminati? The lady who had her husband killed in theatre by the Inhumans? Goliath's nephew who had his uncle killed by Clor? The lady who said Strange "dances with the devil"?

Hulk said something along the lines of, "It's not fair is it? It's not the whole story. You have explanations. You're innocent. Now you know how it feels."
oh heavens, you mean doc strange actually tried to give the hulk what he's always complaining about? That bastard! and to be fair most of the defenders missions were to save the earth which hulk was on, so he was "pleading" for the hulk to help save his own life.
Please. What about Banner? Is that what Banner would want? Shot into space to some planet he's never heard of? No.
Really they instantly repair all houses perfectly? No dead family pets or ruined herilooms, no dust making people sick or lack of electricity causing old people to die from heat/cold? So they use magic, huh?
Why don't you read the Damage Control mini to find out? Or not. Either way I'm right.

And any humans hurt had it coming because Hulk said exactly what he was going to do and what was going to happen.
I'm not mad, I'm just saying the hulk's a dick who deserves to be shot into space cause he's exactly everything people think he is.
Way to oversimplify and totally miss the point of a character.
Yeah, here I read planet hulk and actually believed what Pak said about this hulk being smart and competant and a leader. I should have realized he's always gonna just be a stupid dick in any situation.
I hate you.

[fifthfiend]

And any humans hurt had it coming because Hulk said exactly what he was going to do and what was going to happen.

Wow.

So, how's sociopathy working out for you?

[fifthfiend]

For real, he probably would've knocked off the Red King within the first ten minutes and established a utopia within another month.

Yeah, by working out a way to plug slave-disks right into people's brains.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

You ever get angry and just wanna be left alone? Like fully alone, nobody trying to help you calm down, nobody messing with you, nobody making you do what they think will calm you down, just simply being left alone. I think most people can say they have been that angry, if you have siblings, or a girlfriend/boyfriend, I'm sure you have been so angry you just wanna be left alone on your own.

[Mr. Green]

Wow.

So, how's sociopathy working out for you?
They're fictional people. But even if they were real they would have to be real ****ing stupid to not evacuate if Hulk gave them a heads up and told them to leave.

[RockSP]

They're fictional people.

You just crushed the souls of half the board members.

[TheCorpulent1]

They're fictional people. But even if they were real they would have to be real ****ing stupid to not evacuate if Hulk gave them a heads up and told them to leave.
People don't run from hurricanes or tornadoes or all kinds of threats. Some find it admirable that they've got their home and they're not going to be intimidated away from it for anything. Saying "they had it coming" is effectively like saying a kid going about his own business "had it coming" when a bully decided he wanted his shoes and beat the living s*** out of him when he refused to give them up.

[moraldeficiency]

No need to get condescending because my favorite superhero is a character you don't like. It's annoying.

Wow, you're talking about people being annoying? That's just epically awesome. I happen to like the hulk, but he's been ruined after planet hulk and now he's a joke. Kinda like spider-man and OMD but not as bad. Sorry if I prefer a good version of your favorite superhero.

I realize there are two sides to this story and I think they were both represented pretty equally in WWH. Cho made the argument for Hulk and others like the Illuminati made the case against him. If you want to ignore this, fine. But it's ignoring the POINT of WWH. Remember when he had all those people "testifying" against the Illuminati? The lady who had her husband killed in theatre by the Inhumans? Goliath's nephew who had his uncle killed by Clor? The lady who said Strange "dances with the devil"?

There really wasn't a point to WWH. He was a battle king angry cause he assumed his friend's were messing with him although he had no proof and was doing the exact thing he complains happens to him. But really what happened? New York got smashed and the sorcerer supreme can't help against the skrulls now. Those people testifing against the illuminati are only alive cause the illuminati saved all of them countless times over. The Inhuman thing was a legit point, the nephew was just angry though people do sometimes die in fights (unless you fight the hulk cause he doesn't kill), the doc strange thing was just prejudiced.

Hulk said something along the lines of, "It's not fair is it? It's not the whole story. You have explanations. You're innocent. Now you know how it feels."

Yeah so the hulk does the same thing he hates. This is as stupid a motivation as magneto growing up in the holocaust only to become a mutant supremicist.

Please. What about Banner? Is that what Banner would want? Shot into space to some planet he's never heard of? No.

Better than death, plus I think banner would have loved it there. What ifs? aren't anything exact but it did paint a good picture of what would have happened if everything went right.

Why don't you read the Damage Control mini to find out? Or not. Either way I'm right.

I read it, New York was smashed and people were homeless, in fact the city was almost utterly destroyed. You've got one of those reverse dictionaries don't you?

And any humans hurt had it coming because Hulk said exactly what he was going to do and what was going to happen.

Ok, so if I get pissed at someone in your town do I get to tell everyone to get out cause I'm burning it all down and that's cool and appropriate. Hey some people refused to get bullied, good for them standing up to a tyrant. I guess you think everyone that died in katrina deserved it too.

Way to oversimplify and totally miss the point of a character.

Hulks been out of character since WWH began, if you don't see that you should adjust your blinders to compensate for your perspective.

I hate you.

Oh heavens, but the love of a fanatical hulk fanboy is the greatest love of all. Please reconsider, please.

[Mr. Green]

Wow, you're talking about people being annoying? That's just epically awesome. I happen to like the hulk, but he's been ruined after planet hulk and now he's a joke. Kinda like spider-man and OMD but not as bad. Sorry if I prefer a good version of your favorite superhero.
We have different opinions then because I liked Pak's run a hell of a lot. Hulk sucks now because of Loeb.
There really wasn't a point to WWH.
Except for the one I just spelled out for you.
Yeah so the hulk does the same thing he hates. This is as stupid a motivation as magneto growing up in the holocaust only to become a mutant supremicist.
Is Hulk a hero? No. So what the hell do you expect him to do?
Better than death, plus I think banner would have loved it there. What ifs? aren't anything exact but it did paint a good picture of what would have happened if everything went right.
No. It doesn't. Banner actually has a crappy time getting chased by alien animals and being f***ed with by Hulk. And guess what the first thing he tried to do was? Rebuild the ship so he could get back home. So once again your point is proved invalid by the comics themselves.
I read it, New York was smashed and people were homeless, in fact the city was almost utterly destroyed. You've got one of those reverse dictionaries don't you?
Well read it again because Damage Control rebuilt the city by the time the evacuated people returned to NY and it was payed for by the superhero relief fund (it was called something similar at least). You're wrong again.
Ok, so if I get pissed at someone in your town do I get to tell everyone to get out cause I'm burning it all down and that's cool and appropriate. Hey some people refused to get bullied, good for them standing up to a tyrant. I guess you think everyone that died in katrina deserved it too.
Quit relating a this situation to real life. Hulk smashing a city is different than a Hurricane. Hulk can actually save people -- something a Hurricane wouldn't do. Remember when Strange endangered those people's lives when he was all Zommed out? Hulk saved the people and Strange was all, "All this power is hard to control!"
Hulks been out of character since WWH began, if you don't see that you should adjust your blinders to compensate for your perspective.
Actually, Hulk's characterization has remained consistent from the beginning of PH until the end of WWH. In fact, anyone who knew anything about Hulk would know from the beginning of Planet Hulk that Hulk coming back to Earth to get even with the Illuminati was innevitable. Even Namor warned that Hulk would come back to Earth and kill them. The only thing he got wrong is he didn't actually try to kill them.
Oh heavens, but the love of a fanatical hulk fanboy is the greatest love of all. Please reconsider, please.
Yep. I hate you.

[moraldeficiency]

We have different opinions then because I liked Pak's run a hell of a lot. Hulk sucks now because of Loeb.

Not all of paks writing just post planet hulk. And yeah now hulk sucks even more, I agree.


No. It doesn't. Banner actually has a crappy time getting chased by alien animals and being f***ed with by Hulk. And guess what the first thing he tried to do was? Rebuild the ship so he could get back home. So once again your point is proved invalid by the comics themselves.

Uh, wasn't that until they had the time to actually come to a consensus with banner and the hulk learning to live with each other in harmony, thanks to being alone to deal with his problems and becoming something that would actually be called a hero. Banner only wanted out at first due to the shock of the moment. Hulk loved it from the start.

Well read it again because Damage Control rebuilt the city by the time the evacuated people returned to NY and it was payed for by the superhero relief fund (it was called something similar at least). You're wrong again.

Yeah, money wouldn't come from no where, and the people there were still homeless.

Quit relating a this situation to real life. Hulk smashing a city is different than a Hurricane. Hulk can actually save people -- something a Hurricane wouldn't do. Remember when Strange endangered those people's lives when he was all Zommed out? Hulk saved the people and Strange was all, "All this power is hard to control!"

Hurricane's can help. They refresh air supply and dispell toxins. Sorry it's still incidental at best. Hulk destroyed people's lives and forced them to evacuate cause he wanted to break stuff. For all that worldbreaker nonsense, hulk's never changed as a character. Collateral damage isn't even an afterthought for him.

Doc Strange did that to give the hulk a taste of his own medicine cause he didn't want to just outright kill him. When he realized he went too far he stopped. Hulk never even came to that realization point.

Actually, Hulk's characterization has remained consistent from the beginning of PH until the end of WWH. In fact, anyone who knew anything about Hulk would know from the beginning of Planet Hulk that Hulk coming back to Earth to get even with the Illuminati was innevitable. Even Namor warned that Hulk would come back to Earth and kill them. The only thing he got wrong is he didn't actually try to kill them.

Right he came back to just beat them up and stuff and terrorize a country to prove some point. WWH would have been much better if the hulk just tried to kill the illumaniti, that I could at least respect. Hulk was shown to be smart in planet hulk, the type of king that uses reason as well as force. WWH didn't show the slightest trace of that.

Yep. I hate you.

God, please no, your lack of reason is so polar opposite of me I think I must have you. You're like a real life version of a character from it's always sunny.

[moraldeficiency]

http://www.marvel.com/news/comicstories.5570.Tuesday_Q%26A~colon~_Alex_Ross

^the original human torch melting the sentry's eyes? So, so full of win.

[Mr. Green]

Uh, wasn't that until they had the time to actually come to a consensus with banner and the hulk learning to live with each other in harmony, thanks to being alone to deal with his problems and becoming something that would actually be called a hero. Banner only wanted out at first due to the shock of the moment. Hulk loved it from the start.
Yeah, he eventually came to love being chased by alien creatures and stuck on a crappy planet without anyone to talk to.

Oh wait. No. He didn't.
Yeah, money wouldn't come from no where, and the people there were still homeless.
How do you get that people were homeless when the city was rebuilt?
Hurricane's can help. They refresh air supply and dispell toxins.
So you're totally against the Hulk smashing a city in a fictional book but it's cool if a hurricane does it in real life because it dispels toxins. :huh:

Sorry it's still incidental at best. Hulk destroyed people's lives and forced them to evacuate cause he wanted to break stuff. For all that worldbreaker nonsense, hulk's never changed as a character. Collateral damage isn't even an afterthought for him.
Once again your point is invalid because there weren't any casualties in WWH and Damage Control repaired the entire city. Maybe if your points could be backed up by actual events in the comics I wouldn't be arguing with you.
Doc Strange did that to give the hulk a taste of his own medicine cause he didn't want to just outright kill him. When he realized he went too far he stopped. Hulk never even came to that realization point.
No he didn't. He did it to stop the Hulk and he nearly killed innocent bystanders. Something Hulk went out of his way to prevent on numerous occasions.
Right he came back to just beat them up and stuff and terrorize a country to prove some point. WWH would have been much better if the hulk just tried to kill the illumaniti, that I could at least respect. Hulk was shown to be smart in planet hulk, the type of king that uses reason as well as force. WWH didn't show the slightest trace of that.
So you're complaining about Hulk's characterization being off but you think it would be better if he came to kill. I think this pretty much proves that you really don't understand the character at all.

I truly don't care if you love or hate the Hulk. While I admit to being a Hulk fan-boy it's not like I'm saying "Hulk can beat everyone and everything he does is right!" But you keep making points that simply don't make sense when you consider what actually happened in the comic. And the fact that you have all these expectations for the Hulk to act heroically and justly when Hulk is clearly not a hero to begin with proves you don't understand his character.

[moraldeficiency]

So you're complaining about Hulk's characterization being off but you think it would be better if he came to kill. I think this pretty much proves that you really don't understand the character at all.


This was the only valid statement so I'll address it. During planet hulk, hulk transitioned into being a real warrior that kills stuff (probably one of the better depictions). If this hulk with his rage replacing his reasoning, thought the illumanit killed his people he'd go to kill them. Not teach some stupid lesson about how everyone can be a dick, just straight up go for blood. That would be a reasonable reaction of a warrior insane with bloodlust and take into account why he was so stupid as to blame people clearly not involved. Instead we got a hulk that was supposed to be the ruler (smart) version acting clearly retarded.

[Mr. Green]

Well in that case, let's all thank God you don't write the Hulk as you don't understand the character.

[fifthfiend]

They're fictional people. But even if they were real they would have to be real ****ing stupid to not evacuate if Hulk gave them a heads up and told them to leave.

It's like three entire years since we had an actual natural disaster demonstrate that it is in fact kind of *****ass hard to evacuate an entire American city on a couple of day's notice which led to the deaths of a whole lot of actually real human beings.

I suppose you'll say they had it coming too?

[Mr. Green]

Well that's the thing about comics -- THEY'RE NOT REAL.

And in the comics they did evacuate the city in time. Pretty much makes your point completely invalid doesn't it?

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

People don't run from hurricanes or tornadoes or all kinds of threats. Some find it admirable that they've got their home and they're not going to be intimidated away from it for anything. Saying "they had it coming" is effectively like saying a kid going about his own business "had it coming" when a bully decided he wanted his shoes and beat the living s*** out of him when he refused to give them up.


It's one thing to stand up to a bully it's not the same as standing up to an invading army.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

This was the only valid statement so I'll address it. During planet hulk, hulk transitioned into being a real warrior that kills stuff (probably one of the better depictions). If this hulk with his rage replacing his reasoning, thought the illumanit killed his people he'd go to kill them. Not teach some stupid lesson about how everyone can be a dick, just straight up go for blood. That would be a reasonable reaction of a warrior insane with bloodlust and take into account why he was so stupid as to blame people clearly not involved. Instead we got a hulk that was supposed to be the ruler (smart) version acting clearly retarded.


It wasn't crystal clear that the Illuminati didn't do it, not until we found out Meik just let it happen.

[moraldeficiency]

It wasn't crystal clear that the Illuminati didn't do it, not until we found out Meik just let it happen.

Sure it was, you know why? Cause if the illumaniti was trying to kill hulk they would have just up and killed him. Strange could do it easily, Mr. Fantastic could make a machine, BB could knock him into space, and Iron Man could have sucked the radiation right out of bruce ala titanius. They all used nonlethal (except Skrullbolt) attacks when they were defending against the hulk.

Hulk just wasn't using his head at all when he came to that conclusion.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

It wasn't cystal clear to me thats all I'm sayin. I remember before we all knew what actually happened, people actually believed that the illuminati did it, maybe you didn't but there where enough people who did. So good for you that you saw it so clear from the beggining, you should go be a detective.

[moraldeficiency]

It wasn't cystal clear to me thats all I'm sayin. I remember before we all knew what actually happened, people actually believed that the illuminati did it, maybe you didn't but there where enough people who did. So good for you that you saw it so clear from the beggining, you should go be a detective.

I'm not sure what peyote you were smoking (you should share) but all the debate I heard about was which member of the hulk's crew was really responsible, Meik was floated in issue one as the probable villian and not by me.

I mean, most of the illumaniti were the hulk's friends (doc strange) or at least allies in the past. They wanted to get the hulk away from earth without killing him (which shield wanted) and give him his own paradise like he's always wanted. Why would you think they would go through all that just to kill him later for no reason?

If I'm anything it's not a detective, but I could be Captian Obvious, that works.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

Hey whatever you wanna be go for it, Captain Obvious, a private Dick, go for it. All I'm saying is that it wasn't clear to me, again sorry I'm oh so stupid, I wish I was as smart as you.

[TheCorpulent1]

There was some speculation that the Illuminati actually did blow up the ship somehow, but I think it was largely due to residual feelings that the Illuminati were a bunch of fascist thugs left over from Civil War. They've since moved away from those portrayals.

[Franklin Richards]

So, Supermarvelman. Are you a returning poster or a noob?


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

There was some speculation that the Illuminati actually did blow up the ship somehow, but I think it was largely due to residual feelings that the Illuminati were a bunch of fascist thugs left over from Civil War. They've since moved away from those portrayals.

Yes they have since moved away from that portrayal, but up until we clearly seen that Meik let it happen, there was still room for speculation. You cannot say that everybody knew that the Illuminati didn't do it, wow on SHH.com most everybody knew the Illuminati didn't do it, big whoop it's not like we are the only ones who read comics and not everybody its so hardcore as we are. For some casual fans it wasn't out of character for maybe Black Bolt or Doc Strange to plant a bomb, how many casual fans actually know that much about Black Bolt or Strange, so again for some people it wasn't so clear. For me, yea in the end I knew they would never make any of the characters in the Illuminati do that, but until it was CRYSTAL CLEAR i wasn't gonna act like I knew for a fact that it wasn't one of them.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

So, Supermarvelman. Are you a returning poster or a noob?


:thing: :doom: :thing:

Returning poster, I think thats pretty obvious I choose to use almost the same exact screen name.

[TheCorpulent1]

I haven't been saying that it was obvious the Illuminati didn't do it. I was adding to your case, not MD's. :o

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

I didn't mean it that way, sorry dude. I sometimes say things in the wrong way, i was trying to add to what you where saying. The way it came across was I was talking to moraldeficiancy.

[moraldeficiency]

I haven't been saying that it was obvious the Illuminati didn't do it.

but you were thinking it, admit the truth damn you!

[Franklin Richards]

Are you nuts? Of course it was obvious the Illuminati didn't do it. Not even the worst of these men would setup a bomb to blowup the Hulk in the end. And if they did want the Hulk dead, why shoot him into space when you can just transport him to dimension 7639.2 where the desert winds will eventually make his molecules become sand?

Besides none of them would do it.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

does the casual fan know that Black Bolt wouldn't do that?

[fifthfiend]

Are you nuts? Of course it was obvious the Illuminati didn't do it. Not even the worst of these men would setup a bomb to blowup the Hulk in the end. And if they did want the Hulk dead, why shoot him into space when you can just transport him to dimension 7639.2 where the desert winds will eventually make his molecules become sand?

Besides none of them would do it.

The same way none of them would make a Thor clone and use it to throw their fellow superheroes into a gulag?

WWH happened on the heels of an event where everyone concerned acted in ways which were wildly out of character. Throwing in a Hulk-nuking bomb as a failsafe wouldn't have been beyond either Reed or Tony circa CW.

[TheCorpulent1]

but you were thinking it, admit the truth damn you!
I didn't think they did, but I wouldn't have put it past Tony at that point.

[Franklin Richards]

I strongly disagree. They might have made Clor but that in no way compares to blowing up Bruce Banner. Reed would never murder someone in cold blood. And that's what sending someone up in a rocket and blowing it up would be.

And I reiterate, there are easier ways to destroy the Hulk than a rocket / explosion.

They wouldn't murder the Hulk.

What everyone is going to have to face is the fact that sending him to space was a plot point to send him to Planet Hulk and return for a slugfest splash event. Planet Hulk was great, but then they blew it with WWH.

No way the Hulk could have defeated the Illuminati the way he did.


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[moraldeficiency]

The same way none of them would make a Thor clone and use it to throw their fellow superheroes into a gulag?


I'm not sure cloning someone to help in a fight is the same as murdering someone in cold blood with a weapon that could kill an entire planet.

You're right they were acting out of character, but we all knew they were going to end up as heroes and they couldn't do that with doctor dooming hulk like that.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

The same way none of them would make a Thor clone and use it to throw their fellow superheroes into a gulag?

WWH happened on the heels of an event where everyone concerned acted in ways which were wildly out of character. Throwing in a Hulk-nuking bomb as a failsafe wouldn't have been beyond either Reed or Tony circa CW.

exactly

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

I didn't think they did, but I wouldn't have put it past Tony at that point.

Thanks Corp, thats what I'm saying it wasn't crstal clear, until it became clear.

[TheCorpulent1]

Planet Hulk was great, but then they blew it with WWH.
On that, at least, we agree. :up:

[moraldeficiency]

Well franklin it looks like you and me were the only one's capable of figuring the enigma that was WWH (oh so fiendish in it's epic complexity of punching ramdom things). I guess we're just that much smarter than the rest of you (also better looking).

[moraldeficiency]

On that, at least, we agree. :up:

I'm down with that as well.

[Franklin Richards]

(also better looking).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/AuntPetunia/Self%20Portraits/Tessa/Thanksgiving1.jpg

:up:


:thing: :doom: :thing:

[moraldeficiency]

hehe.

back on topic for a moment: boobies! alright then enough of that.

You know seeing that pic of OG torch schooling sentry made me realize something that may or may not be very clever of ross. Rather than having the sentry run away crying as is his normal fight strategy this had him crying flames. Very cool dig if that was intended. Just wanted to throw that out there.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

Your just a regular Reed Richards aren't you MD.

[moraldeficiency]

Your just a regular Reed Richards aren't you MD.

Actually I'd say I'm minorly retarded on most things not to mention a drunk and a stoner but even I knew it was obvious the illuminiti didn't try and kill the hulk. Now since you didn't, where does that leave you?

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

A regular D-Man I guess. Thats my point I wish I was just like you.

[moraldeficiency]

A regular D-Man I guess. Thats my point I wish I was just like you.

send me your monies and I'll send you my patented "be like MD in fifty seven and a half easy steps" start up kit. You'll learn how to make extra money through my patented technique of robbing people. You'll impress the ladies by looking like less of a loser in public, and having no compunction about saying anything necessary to get laid (not responsible for any STDs gained because of proper implementation of techniques). You'll learn more about the human condition then you ever thought possible then you'll spend the rest of your time killing those brain cells with a healty dose of whiskey and crippie. Finally you'll wow your friends and coworkers through my desperately sought after secret of stating the obvious. All this and more can be yours SMM if you order now.

"Be like MD in fifty seven and a half easy steps" is not responsible for any death, fires, evil lepruchans, or liver damage incurred through the program.

[SUPER MARVELMAN]

:):):)

[Dread]

I agree with the idea that PLANET HULK was better than WORLD WAR HULK. That original story seemed to prove the theory that was hatched up after NOVA and some other characters in post ANNIHILATION books; space makes everything better. Here Hulk got to do something different from his status quo for a while, which often makes for his better stories. He got to a harsh new rule where he wasn't automatically "the strongest there is" and thus could be physically challenged (something that is difficult to do in normal 616 Earth, which is part of why I usually find Hulk boring; nothing can ever beat him beyond awkward Maguffins like "Hulk Killing Gun" or whatever baloney technology that never works anyway). He got a new supporting cast, romance, direction and cause. It reminded me of a run during the late 90's when Hulk gained control over an island (or was it a small community) and acted as it's ruler. It didn't last long. That was back during the X-Men's "the Twelve" storyline where Apocalypse had made Wolverine Death and replaced him on the X-Men with a Skrull. I thought that storyline for Hulk was interesting, but it ended too soon. PLANET HULK was a much better version of that tale. And it, too, ended too soon.

Would trying to blow up the Hulk with a nuke type weapon have been beyond the Illuminati? No, not all of them. Dr. Strange was willing to banish the Hulk to another dimension, but people forget that he also bound Hulk by mystical rules that allowed him to return to "Crossroads" the moment he was unhappy; Strange genuinely wanted Hulk to find happiness in one other dimension. I could imagine Namor killing the Hulk if he had to (or could) and not being terribly torn up about it; same with Black Bolt. Mr. Fantastic? Never. Iron Man? Well, that was back during his post-CW reign of terror, so one could say, "Maybe".

But the point is they didn't. They planned to send Hulk to a planet that was habitable but not filled with human-like life; basically, a scientific version of what Dr. Strange tried. They, apparently, didn't anticipate Hulk damaging the craft with his strength (which, frankly, is a bit naive) nor did they expect a random cosmic event throwing the ship off course (which, considering Mr. Fantastic's longtime experience with space, was negligent at best). The ship had and did have the potential to be a WMD under certain circumstances, but so can a car or Iron Man's armor under certain situations. The Illuminati didn't deliberately place Hulk on Sakaar or blow it up. Just because Hulk had good reason for believing so doesn't morally justify his quest for vengeance to the point where he nearly destroyed Manhattan Island and was pummeling heroes for no good reason; hell, he practically FORCED a fight against the X-Men, including minors, for little more then a mild curiosity against a figure who had NOTHING to do with sending Hulk to Sakaar or blowing it up. Nothing. And for that nothing, Hulk trashed the Mansion, broke Colossus' arms, and pummeled a good dozen figures, including children.

I understood the Hulk's motives, and his distrust for most heroes. But I can also understand why most heroes distrust him, or why they would seek to punt him off world (although I do NOT accept Bendis' theory that Hulk "has always" killed innocents in his rampages, and neither does Greg Pak). Miek was the one responsible for blowing up Sakaar, and eventually even Hulk realized that.

Speaking of Hulk, this week's issue of HULK offered a possible theory, at least to me, as to how Hulk can be in a sketch for a potential MIGHTY roster.

Banner wound up back in Vegas, and this reawakened his "Joe Fixit" Grey Hulk persona. The Hulk in Pham's sketch is not colored yet and for all we know, is Grey Hulk, who was sarcastic but more reasonable. There is a Red Hulk, "Rulk", tearing through the U.S. that SHIELD and Iron Man know is a distinct, seperate Hulk. Jennifer Walters, a lawyer, could prove it legally. Therefore, Iron Man COULD twist legalities a bit to claim that Grey Hulk is NOT the same Hulk and thus could be registered and placed on a team. It would be reckless, but then again, so was slapping Sentry or Wolverine on a team roster.

[Eros]

Yea Dread, but Banner transformations could be either green or god knows what. At any Given Battle, he could either fight wiht them or against them.

[Dread]

Yea Dread, but Banner transformations could be either green or god knows what. At any Given Battle, he could either fight wiht them or against them.

That's also true. Plus, why would be even trust the other heroes, especially Iron Man, again? It seems to be a challenge, to say the least, to make it work.

[fifthfiend]

Mr. Fantastic? Never. Iron Man? Well, that was back during his post-CW reign of terror, so one could say, "Maybe".

I disagree on Mr. Fantastic as again we're considering his CW depiction. And the thing in particular with him is that in Iron Man's case it's like well, Tony was kind of always a dick, so it's not too much of a reach to have him being that much more of a dick. But with Reed, the guy was just being pushed so far outside of his usual characterization that there's no use talking about what he'd never do, because "never" was where Reed was already hanging his hat.

Especially when you already have this --

They, apparently, didn't anticipate Hulk damaging the craft with his strength (which, frankly, is a bit naive) nor did they expect a random cosmic event throwing the ship off course (which, considering Mr. Fantastic's longtime experience with space, was negligent at best).

-- which is to say a situation where the best-case scenario is already more than a little out of character.

Also re:

Would trying to blow up the Hulk with a nuke type weapon have been beyond the Illuminati?

let's bear in mind that it didn't even necessarily had to be them blowing up the Hulk. They could just as easily have been, say, destroying the ship so that Banner couldn't plot a return voyage and just going way overboard on the explosive yield. We've already established that Reed and Tony's planning skills weren't at their finest in this whole escapade.

Minor correction:

Miek was the one responsible for blowing up Sakaar, and eventually even Hulk realized that.

Red King loyalists were responsible for Sakaar. Miek just didn't do anything to stop them.

[Mr. Green]

That's also true. Plus, why would be even trust the other heroes, especially Iron Man, again? It seems to be a challenge, to say the least, to make it work.
It would be a stretch to say the least. ESPECIALLY since Slot is writing.

[CaptainCanada]

Joey Q releases the script for page one of Dan Slott's first issue (http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=92159514&blogID=443492915).

The title is "The Smartest Man in the Room"; possibly a reference to Pym? Or Iron Man, potentially, since he's definitely on the threefold.

So this confirms that the three-part cover released is from this, since Vision II and Stature are in it.

[Dread]

Joey Q releases the script for page one of Dan Slott's first issue (http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=92159514&blogID=443492915).

The title is "The Smartest Man in the Room"; possibly a reference to Pym? Or Iron Man, potentially, since he's definitely on the threefold.

So this confirms that the three-part cover released is from this, since Vision II and Stature are in it.

Then is it possible that the "Hulk" in the picture is Hulkling? It seems to be a step backward in terms of design, but you're talking about a guy who dusted off Ms. Marvel's 70's costume for Ultra Girl, and 3-D Man's Golden Age outfit for Triathlon (as well as got Rage and Justice back into their 90's costumes). Teddy is pretty much the only YA without any sort of family to stay with, considering his parents are all dead.

[Mr. Green]

Not all covers are literal representations of what happens inside.

[hippie_hunter]

Personally I have this feeling that Stature and Vision won't be on the team for a very long time. They'll probably go back to the Young Avengers once Heinberg and Cheung's new Young Avengers project is up and running.

[Dread]

But who is to say when that will happen, or how long it will last?

Considering that the YA franchise has gone from selling 60k per mini issue to about 30k per mini issue, having some of the members be part of the Mighty team may help re-energize the brand.

[TheCorpulent1]

Who says they're even on the team? Everyone on those covers doesn't necessarily have to be a member of the team.

[Dread]

The script confirms that Cassie and Vision 2.0 appear in Slott's issue, and call the rest of their buddies in.

Honestly I think the roster is fine, so long as there is some believable way to explain Hulk. Maybe some implanted gizmo that either keeps him under control or maintains that a certain "personality" comes out every time?

[TheCorpulent1]

That still doesn't necessarily mean they're members of the team. Nova showed up for the first issue of Guardians of the Galaxy, yet he's not an actual member.

[Dread]

On the other hand, everyone on the cover of NEW AVENGERS #1 became a member eventually. It can go either way.

Like I said, the only member who presents a concern is Hulk. I'm down for Wanda and Pym returning to form. :p

[Colossal Spoons]

That still doesn't necessarily mean they're members of the team. Nova showed up for the first issue of Guardians of the Galaxy, yet he's not an actual member.

God, I'd love it of the GoG become the first set on Nova Corps members :heart:

[hippie_hunter]

But who is to say when that will happen, or how long it will last?

Considering that the YA franchise has gone from selling 60k per mini issue to about 30k per mini issue, having some of the members be part of the Mighty team may help re-energize the brand.

I think the biggest reason why Young Avengers Presents didn't sell as much as Young Avengers v1 was because it wasn't Heinberg's Young Avengers v2. We'll probably be hearing something about it in a couple of months since Quesada has confirmed that he and Cheung are indeed working on it now.

And when Young Avengers v2 does occur, does anyone actually expect Vision 2.0 and Stature to remain on the main Avengers team?

[fifthfiend]

Wally did double-duty on the JLA and the Titans, didn't he?

I mean okay he can actually more or less be in two places at once, but still.

[Anubis]

He actually was in two places at once during that JLA Elite stuff.

[hippie_hunter]

Wally did double-duty on the JLA and the Titans, didn't he?
Wally does double-duty on the JLA and Titans.

To be fair though, it is pretty much needed for Wally to be on both teams. Wally is a Titan first and foremost and the Justice League needs the Flash. The Titans just don't feel complete without Wally and the Justice League just kinda sucks without the Flash.

The Avengers on the other hand can move on without Stature and Vision 2.0 and they should for the most part remain on that. They aren't the kind of Avengers that need to be Avengers like Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Hawkeye, Ms. Marvel, and the Pyms. That said, until Heinberg's Young Avengers v2 comes out (which is still not going to be for a while), I completely welcome them to the roster and will most likely enjoy their presence.

I mean okay he can actually more or less be in two places at once, but still.|
|
\/


He actually was in two places at once during that JLA Elite stuff.

[THANOSRULES]

couldnt that just be hulk-ling?

[CaptainCanada]

Doesn't look like him, and I can't see them changing his by-now-distinctive look, especially since we've already got two hulks running around.

EDIT: Revisiting an earlier Slott interview where he talks about the cover:
NRAMA: Are those coming out when the solicits are revealed for post-Secret Invasion?

DS: Our book will start after that, but they might reveal the first three covers, since they all link up and make a giant image together.

NRAMA: And the covers are by whom?

DS: Koi Pham. And when you see all these characters, you might freak out, if you're an Avengers fan. There's a good freak-out character on every character that people will say, "WHAAAAA???" But everyone's got a lot of Avengers juice. These are major characters. Especially if you're like, an AVENGERS Avengers fan. Like one of the things that Brian has masterfully done is that New Avengers has the biggest guns. It's got Wolverine; it's got Spider-Man; it's got all these really big characters. And more than any book in the Marvel Universe, New Avengers really charts the course of the Marvel Universe, and it's this all-encompassing, big thing. And if you're a fan of AVENGERS Avengers, you're just going to fall in love with who we've got in the Mighty Avengers book.

[RockSP]

God, I'd love it of the GoG become the first set on Nova Corps members :heart:

:huh: I don't think DNA want to write the same book twice a month...

[Dread]

I think the biggest reason why Young Avengers Presents didn't sell as much as Young Avengers v1 was because it wasn't Heinberg's Young Avengers v2. We'll probably be hearing something about it in a couple of months since Quesada has confirmed that he and Cheung are indeed working on it now.

And when Young Avengers v2 does occur, does anyone actually expect Vision 2.0 and Stature to remain on the main Avengers team?

Does Heinberg really have much pull anymore? His WONDER WOMAN issues weren't exactly Top 10 sellers even before delays squandered it, and WW is a far more recognizable character. It has been several years since Heinberg wrote, co-wrote, edited, plotted, co-plotted, or even was a key grip in anything YA. Several writers have been able to write stories with them that sold almost as well, including Zeb Wells and Chris Yost.

Everyone was initially predicting that Millar & Hitch on FF would be automatic Top 10 seller gold for a few months, and it's struggled to even match some of McDuffie's sales highs. I frankly wouldn't expect Heinberg to be able to sell YA above 50-60k until it actually happened and I saw chart data.

Could Vision 2.0 and Stature be on two teams at once? Sure, why not? We could all list characters on several teams at once in the past. It just demands a little coordination between writers and editors. Slott is more than willing to share with people.

[THANOSRULES]

I thinksome where out there Quesada just respects Heinberg so much, that he told him or promised him to keep the characters "set aside" for him.

I didnt read YA presents much..when i see that "presents" I think stand alone, irrelevant stories. I have an uneasy commitment to such books, but i usually pick them up..just not every issue. I'm probably like a lot of readers that way.

[TheCorpulent1]

when i see that "presents" I think stand alone, irrelevant stories.
You were pretty much right on the money with YAP. Most of the issues weren't bad, but they didn't really count for anything. At all. Brubaker's was probably the best, and that's really only because of the Captain America lore involved (Isaiah, Bucky, etc.).

And, really, I think it's more because of that stand-alone factor that YAP didn't sell well rather than Heinberg's absence. The word "Avengers" carries a lot of weight right now. Whoever's writing Young Avengers, unless they're really, really terrible, would probably be able to make it sell well for a while, at least.

[Dread]

Plus, add in the fact that the Young Avengers sold much better when written by Zeb Wells or Chris Yost for event mini's. True, both were alongside the RUNAWAYS, but the "core" audience for that book has rarely been more than 25k historically, and I doubt all are interested in YA team up's.

The strategy of putting the franchise on hold for Heinberg, for over 2 years, has been a poor one. It has stopped dead any buzz or momentum the series had, and hasn't made any character stronger for it. During the writer's strike, Joss Whedon was able to get done 3 episodes of DR. HORRIBLE. Heinberg couldn't even co-plot an arc. Joe Q keeps telling us he will return for a second go, but he also kept promising that year-long arc on Ultimate X-Men from Bryan Singer for 2-4 years, right alongside Ultimate Wolverine vs. Hulk's 3rd issue.

Plus, why does Marvel even want Heinberg? On NO solo writing effort has he been timely. His last YA volume had to shave off issues from the last arc and it still ended late. Ditto his WONDER WOMAN. The only comic he got done on time was the JLA arc he co-wrote with Geoff Johns. That should tell Marvel something, but they always like bending over backwards and screwing over their fans to appease the ego of any hack from Hollywood.

I mean, thank you Heinberg for co-creating a bunch of cool young heroes with Cheung. But it is very obvious that a return from him is unlikely, and expecting regular, timely, even BI-MONTHLY issues from him would be nigh impossible.

As for what happens with Stature & Vision, they can easily be on two titles at once if need be. It only becomes a problem when Marvel's editors make hypocritical decrees onto who can and can't be shared across books (I say hypocritical because plenty of characters, such as Iron Man, Wolverine, Spider-Man, etc. can easily appear in several books at once and no one cries about it). It is only a problem if Marvel makes it one. Even with Slott on board, MIGHTY AVENGERS will sell double or triple YA did for a few issues and add to exposure. And Slott is always willing to share with another writer. It just takes coordination. Considering Marvel used to accomplish a "shared universe" back when phones had rotary dials reveals no excuse for why editors balk about it now.

[Colossal Spoons]

:huh: I don't think DNA want to write the same book twice a month...

Heh

[Franklin Richards]

DnA needs to take over the FF when Millar / Hitch take off. They need to head to the Negative Zone or the Microverse or Deep Space.


:ff: :ff: :ff:

[Colossal Spoons]

Yeah, that'd be swell. How's F4 been lately?

[Franklin Richards]

Started slow but it's coming to a nice ending. Totally self contained. No SI. But if Sue get's killed it will all be for naught.


:ff: :ff: :ff: