After repeated viewings I prefer..

[Buttman]

..B89 to Begins.

I was too one of the those guys that when Begins first came out could barely contain my love of it, and how it had trumped Burton's Batman film hands down in quality. However, after 2 years of repeated viewings (maybe.. 200 viewings?) I've come to the conclusion that B89 is just a better film, with a spirit more true to Batman.

I think this is because, on the surface Begins is a somewhat shallow movie. The first 10 times you see it you think it's fantastic, then it begins to work on you. I've seen B89.. easily 500 times, and I still enjoy it start to finish. B89 has more depth, more lines that are left ambigious ("Are we going to try to love each other? "I'd like too.") while Begins is very straight to the point.



Let's get to the stats -

Keaton vs. Bale

Despite what the comics had been doing for a decade, the public perception of Batman was still Adam West in 1988/9. Keaton changed that. By performing the character in a serious and somber tone, he inspired a wave of Batfans and is still considered "The Definitive Batman" by many people today. Plus, when he was offered 7m for Forever, he rejected the offer refusing to be a sell-out. Go Keaton. Contiuning the tone set by Keaton, Bale changed his voice and his overall performance while portraying Batman to provide a realistic intrepretation of how Bruce Wayne would convince people he and Batman were not one and the same. However, many fans disliked his approach as too over-the-top animal-like, as a detective zen-like character.

Winner = Keaton.


Characterisation

While the characterisation in Batman was more restrained and held-back, like a full fledged psycho should be, it doesn't change the fact Batman was/is a killer in the picture whereas in Begins he does the same, only without all the murderings. Major plus points for Begin's portrayal of the Wayne murders and the impact of Thomas' Wayne's death, as well as the portrayal of Jim Gordon.

Winner = Batman Begins


Batsuit & Batmobile

I don't think there's anyone who prefers the Begins costume or Batmobile to Batman's, so I'm just gonna go ahead and throw this one right out there.

Winner = Batman


Production Design

Begins went with a more realistic approach to everything. Gotham felt like it could very much be a real city. The way his grapple gun worked seemed more practical and the cape gliding had science behind it, no matter how bizzare it was. Batman was the exact opposite, going for complete style. Gotham City felt and looked like hell.

Winner = Batman


Faithfullness to the source material -

This one's a toughie. Because automatically, I think Batman Begins has this one hands down. Batman doesn't kill, his parents are murdered by Joe Chill, he refuses to use guns and can kick ass. But then, I pause, and think about it seriously for a few minutes. I feel Batman's costume in the original is more faithful than Begin's is. I feel the same for the Batmobile. I feel the same for the Batcave. I feel the same for his "wonderful toys." I feel Batman is much scarier than he is in Begins. Vicky Vale. A comic portrayal of Alfred. Gotham City doesn't feel very Hell-like in Begins, it actually doesn't look like such a bad place to live in most of the pans. NOBODY would want to live in Batman's Gotham.

Winner = Draw.

[Rockbottom]

I agree with all those points, i love both of the films but the vibe Keaton sends out as Batman and score in B89 just swing it for me.

[Rockbottom]

Double post :@

[mjbull23]

Things I loved about B89. The Batmobile. I still drool whenever I see that car. Loved the look of Gotham. Keaton's portrayal of Batman was spot on. Nicholson as the Joker. Nearly 20 years later, and everytime I watch this movie it's still visually appealing and enthralling. Burton and Co. did a masterful job.

There are many things about it I preferred over Begins. I'm not quite certain if I am ready to annoint it the greatest Batman Film of all time, Begins was an excellent piece of work. Tough decision. You do make some nice points though.

[Catman]

..B89 to Begins.

Welcome to the other side. :) Begins is a great movie! Its flaw is that it lacks wonder...you know? Nolan just throws stuff at you! In B89 burton throws some "awe" factors in. Like when we see the batcave for the first time is a great example. You see some monitors and the camera starts to slowly pull back. Everyone in the audience is like, "ooo its the batcave. wow!" In Begins Nolan just throws it at you. "Hey, here's the batcave!"

Begins lacks the awe factor.

[The Joker]

Batman 89 is much more entertaining than Batman Begins, IMO.

[mjbull23]

I think you nailed it on the head Catman. I mean, take for example, the scene in B89, where Bruce is about to go bomb the hell out of Axis Chemicals... you see him open up his Costume Chamber,,,and you hear the slow build up...the crescendo of the musical score as he fastens the bat belt onto his costume...then we see that tight shot of his emblem, and finally the closeup of his face as he looks up into the Batcave and all we see is the light playing off of his eerie eyes... i mean that little 5 second sequence gave me a serious chill factor down my spine...

Begins equivalent is the part when Bruce is about to go eavesdrop on Rachel's visit to Dr. Crane at Arkham, and all we get there is just a quick clip of him opening up his Costume Casket ...which, was fine, but certainly did not convey the same impact that the aforementioned scene does.

Also, I think Danny Elfman's musical score really enhanced B89 incredibly. If you really pay attention to it during the movie, you begin to develop an appreciation for how effectively it helps lather up the mood in every scene of that movie.

[mjbull23]

double post.

[Kevin Roegele]

I love Burton's Batman, and you know what? I love Begins as well. Yes, it is possible to like both.

[Bat Attack]

Welcome to the other side. :) Begins is a great movie! Its flaw is that it lacks wonder...you know? Nolan just throws stuff at you! In B89 burton throws some "awe" factors in. Like when we see the batcave for the first time is a great example. You see some monitors and the camera starts to slowly pull back. Everyone in the audience is like, "ooo its the batcave. wow!" In Begins Nolan just throws it at you. "Hey, here's the batcave!"

Begins lacks the awe factor.
Well put :up:, now who wants something on the grill? :batman:

[Buttman]

I still think Begins is a very good movie and enjoy it very much. However I think B89 is an excellent movie in comparision. Begins doesn't seem to have the play-back factor that B89 has, however like I've said earlier I can still watch B89 all the damn time. I watched it yesterday for instance, I've not watched Begins in a fortnight at least.

[Voyeur]

Batman '89...more "depth"?

You can't see me laughing histerically.

[Catman]

I love Burton's Batman, and you know what? I love Begins as well. Yes, it is possible to like both.

Agreed. :up:

[The Batman]

After recently buying the Batman 89 SE, and watching it over and over...i have to say i prefer burtons movie, as much as i like Nolan.

And its simply because of the fact that burton took Batman to mythic levels...something nolan never really does in BB. From the first scene with the legendary "I'm Batman" line, from Batman's movements, to Jack Nicholson's Joker...I feel like I'm watching a movie on a pop culture icon, thats celebrating what he is. Nolan, however, demystifies Batman sadly. Burton's world is interesting and fits the gotham city of the kane/finger run. I honestly feel like i'm seeing a moving comic when i watch the movie. There's definately influences from the original run, as well as the marshall rogers batman.

[Catman]

Nolan, however, demystifies Batman sadly.

Yup. As much as I love BB i was always against that "realism" s--t. Its BATMAN, you know. But whatever.

[Herr Logan]

Running very low on cogency and comments myself at the moment, I just want to say that I agree particularly with the points made by Buttman, Catman, mjbull23 and The Batman. The "awe factor" vs. the "demystifying factor" is one of the fundamental differences in the styles of these movies, and it's a deal-breaker for me. Burton used a "noir-ish" style for the overall story and laid the fantasy over it, which is the very essence of the original Batman concept. 'Begins' had precious little "noir" to it, and it clumsily attempted to avoid the fantasy element (but clearly failed, since that movie was extremely unrealistic in matters of physics, criminology, etc. and even lacked internal consistency).

On a character level, I'll put it this way:
I can't take Bale's Batman seriously during dialogue. If you have to scream to get your point across while holding a man several stories above hard pavement, you're not up for the task. Michael Keaton's Batman (who was also holding a man several stories above hard pavement) merely whispered to get his point across in the most badass Batman scene ever filmed. I'll take the one who keeps his cool, thank you. As for the version we're stuck with, I can just imagining him saying "I'm the Goddamn Batman!" and actually pulling it off, since they've strayed far from the subtlety, coldness and dignity of the earlier incarnation.

:wolverine

[Agentsands77]

However, after 2 years of repeated viewings (maybe.. 200 viewings?) I've come to the conclusion that B89 is just a better film, with a spirit more true to Batman.
I don't agree, really. As far as quality goes, I'd say BATMAN '89 and BATMAN BEGINS are about equal. Equally flawed, equally good, just in different ways.

B89 has more depth, more lines that are left ambigious ("Are we going to try to love each other? "I'd like too.") while Begins is very straight to the point.
It's true that BEGINS is more straight to the point, but I don't think BATMAN '89 has a whole lot of depth on display. It leaves some ambiguity in a few moments, but ambiguity doesn't necessarily mean depth.

Batsuit & Batmobile

I don't think there's anyone who prefers the Begins costume or Batmobile to Batman's, so I'm just gonna go ahead and throw this one right out there.

Winner = Batman
Uh, I prefer the BEGINS costume to the B89 costume. By a mile. As far as Batmobile, I like B89 and BEGINS equally.

[mclay18]

Begins lacks the awe factor.

Not exactly. BB does have its fair share of awe-inspiring moments. The scene after Gordon and the police find Falcone strapped to the spotlight, where the camera pans skywards and you see Batman standing on the building like a gargoyle. That's one right there, and the scene after Bruce gets his present from Rachel and goes down to the Batcave, where the moment he opens his costume closet (that clearly echoes the scene from the B89 film). And there's also the final moment where Batman perches on the ledge, says "And you'll never have to" and jumps off, where Batman seems to flying towards the camera.

I think Nolan purposely muted the awe moments in BB and save them for moments that really earned their "awe" factor. Some of the awe moments in B89 were overdramatized by Burton, but that movie had its awe moments too.

[Catman]

It's true that BEGINS is more straight to the point, but I don't think BATMAN '89 has a whole lot of depth on display.

I agree that B89 isn't really that deep. Its Batman Returns thats REALLY DEEP! Its still the most artistic Batman movie.

Not exactly. BB does have its fair share of awe-inspiring moments.

Agreed, but B89 had more! BB had a couple here and there but not that many.

[Agentsands77]

I agree that B89 isn't really that deep. Its Batman Returns thats REALLY DEEP! Its still the most artistic Batman movie.
Yes and no. Is it the one with the most artistic intentions? Sure. It doesn't really entirely deliver on them, though, and "really deep" is still stretching it.

Agreed, but B89 had more! BB had a couple here and there but not that many.
I'd argue that statement. BEGINS had more than enough "awe" moments, especially for Batman, who's typically a more subdued character. I liked the fact that BEGINS was a little more restrained than your average full-throttle comic book flick.

And even if BEGINS had less, it more than made up for it in really great character moments.

[Leenie]

I love both films, but I think I like Batman Begins slightly more.

After seeing Begins for the first time, I didn't know whether I liked it more than Burton's Batman. It was after seeing both movies back-to-back on DVD when I decided which one I love the most.

There's one thing that surprised me, though: I thought that my father would absolutely ADORE Batman Begins, because he loves serious detective movies. I mean, my dad also enjoys comic book movies, but I don't see him watch those type of movies as often. So, I assumed that Batman Begins would be right up his alley. After watching Begins with my dad, I can tell that he liked it, but he said (and I quote), "The Batman with Jack Nicholson was so much better, because it felt like a superhero movie." I totally understand where he's coming from.

[Catman]

Yes and no. Is it the one with the most artistic intentions? Sure. It doesn't really entirely deliver on them, though, and "really deep" is still stretching it.

Kevin, Guard, and myself have explained Batman Returns a million times. I'm sure you can find our explanation in some of the those threads because right now I'm not in the mood to explain it to you.


I'd argue that statement. BEGINS had more than enough "awe" moments, especially for Batman, who's typically a more subdued character. I liked the fact that BEGINS was a little more restrained than your average full-throttle comic book flick.

And even if BEGINS had less, it more than made up for it in really great character moments.

I disagree. I felt Begins was a bit too dry. Or atleast thats how Kevin Roegle puts it. To me it has MAYBE 2 or 3 "awe" moments but thats about it. B89 had a bunch of scenes that were that left you speechless! The roof fight, axis chemical scene (especially when Joker's hand pops out), Joker in surgery, Batman rescues Vicki at the museum, Batman takes Vicki to the batcave, Bats and Vick at the batcave, Batman destroying Axis chemicals, every scene with the batwing, the stuff at the church, and OF COURSE this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tiGCeWaYuM

[Agentsands77]

Kevin, Guard, and myself have explained Batman Returns a million times. I'm sure you can find our explanation in some of the those threads because right now I'm not in the mood to explain it to you.
I've read them. And simply, I disagree, and have often posted as much in response. I think the critics underrate BATMAN RETURNS signficantly, and the lovers overrate it significantly. It's an interesting, but failed, experiment.

B89 had a bunch of scenes that were that left you speechless!
Well, I guess. I've never been that impressed by BATMAN '89, so you're talking to the wrong man. But being left speechless isn't particularly a big goal of mine with a Batman film. That's just the goal of typical popcorn film spectacle, and I think BEGINS had a different approach to spectacle other than just .

Some of the moments that I was personally impressed by in BEGINS, whether through awe-impact or otherwise: Bruce walking up the mountain to the League fo Shadows, the emotionally-burndened flashback sequence featuring the death of Joe Chill, the training montage with swordfight, the excellent fear-aided evaluation scene, Batman's confrontation with Falcone at the docks, Batman interrogating Flass, Batman sobbing in the backseat of Alfred's limo, Demon Batman interrogating Jonathan Crane, Batman calling in "backup," the Batmobile chase, Bruce Wayne having to harm the Wayne legacy to save people's lives, Wayne Manor burning to the ground, Batman mobbed by tons of frightened people in the narrows, and "And you'll never have to."

[The Joker]

I enjoyed both of Burton's Batman movies ALOT more than Batman Begins.

[Dark Spidey]

Begins was just too realistic for it's own good, imo.

Realism is the antithesis of the comic book movie.

[Agentsands77]

Begins was just too realistic for it's own good, imo.

Realism is the antithesis of the comic book movie.
Depends on the comic book. Realism is absolutely essential for some comic books, not so much for others. For Batman, you can have it either way - BEGINS still isn't anywhere near as realistic and down-to-earth as BATMAN: YEAR ONE was.

[Catman]

It's an interesting, but failed, experiment.

I've never been that impressed by BATMAN '89, so you're talking to the wrong man.

At the end of the day it comes down to taste. Its like James Bond. You prefer Licence to Kill and Casino Royale while others prefer Goldfinger and The Spy Who Loved Me. And, the same applies to Batman. Some prefer more fantasy-like movies like B89 while other prefer more realistic stuff like BB.

To each his own.

[Agentsands77]

It does come down to subjective taste, sure, but for me, it's not about fantasy vs. realism. I have plenty of love and respect for both approaches.

I would love a fantastical Batman film... heck, I even love Batman's journeys in the areas of the supernatural (ala his meeting with the spirits of his parents in DEATH AND THE MAIDENS). But just because I would want something like that doesn't mean I couldn't also like a more realistic take on the hero, just as I wouldn't have to dislike lobster because I liked fillet mignon.

Similarly, I do love CASINO ROYALE. It's my favorite Bond movie. But GOLDFINGER and THUNDERBALL still rock hard, and YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE, one of the most ludicrous Bond films, is probably my favorite Sean Connery entry. So it's not really a realistic/fantasy dichotomy there, either.

[Buttman]

At the end of the day it comes down to taste. Its like James Bond. You prefer Licence to Kill and Casino Royale while others prefer Goldfinger and The Spy Who Loved Me. And, the same applies to Batman. Some prefer more fantasy-like movies like B89 while other prefer more realistic stuff like BB.

To each his own.
Well of course, that's what it will always come down too, but it sure can be fun to debate.

I find it odd nobody has mentioned the second "It's not who I am underneath.." before diving off the roof, I thought that was probably Bale's best performance of a line, as Batman.

On a final note, I think the fact your dad described it as "Jack Nicholoson's Batman film" speaks volumes about the film. :woot:

[Furious Styles]

Both films have their strengths and weaknesses, however that doesn't stop me from enjoying them both immensely.

One could go as fas as to say that in 1995, Goldeneye reintroduced James Bond to the general public and in 2006, Casino Royale was used as a vehicle to reinvent the character.

It can be debated whether or not that same idea can be applied to B'89 and Begins. However, there are some similarities to both franchises. Batman's introduction to the bigscreen was handled much differently than what we saw in Begins, and rightfully so.

I think both films accomplished the goals they set out for themselves, and I think fans of Batman are better off for it.

[Michael Myers]

I can't say for sure which Batman film I truly prefer over the other, but I will say that Begins is a great origin movie that was never really told before to the general audiences, where 1989 got straight to the action and is overall, a much more fun film to watch ultimately. Both are nothing short of fantastic, IMHO. :up:

[Agentsands77]

As I've said before, on a quality level, I think both films are equal.

I think my like of BEGINS over the other comes down to the characterization of Batman. I vastly prefer the more heroic, noble, and less psychologically-troubled Batman of BEGINS. That's just who my Batman is, and it's largely why BATMAN BEGINS resonates a little more with me.

[Dark Spidey]

As I've said before, on a quality level, I think both films are equal.

I think my like of BEGINS over the other comes down to the characterization of Batman. I vastly prefer the more heroic, noble, and less psychologically-troubled Batman of BEGINS. That's just who my Batman is, and it's largely why BATMAN BEGINS resonates a little more with me.

Interesting. What makes you say that? I would argue that Bale's Batman was more psychologically-troubled than Keaton's.

[The Joker]

There's one scene in Begins that really bothers me. The one on the plane, where Bruce is saying to Alfred how he is going to change Gotham, and show the people it doesn't belong to the criminals and the corrupt etc.

Bale puts absolutely no energy into it at all. He acts like he's listing the issues that need to be addressed at a stockholder's meeting or something. He's dull, and almost sleepy in delivering these lines.

[DocLathropBrown]

There's one scene in Begins that really bothers me. The one on the plane, where Bruce is saying to Alfred how he is going to change Gotham, and show the people it doesn't belong to the criminals and the corrupt etc.

Bale puts absolutely no energy into it at all. He acts like he's listing the issues that need to be addressed at a stockholder's meeting or something. He's dull, and almost sleepy in delivering these lines.

I wouldn't say that, but the lines did feel stiff and scripted. It didn't feel right. But I blame that on Goyer. Bale did the best he could with such wooden dialogue. Almost made it liveable.

[El Payaso]

There's one scene in Begins that really bothers me. The one on the plane, where Bruce is saying to Alfred how he is going to change Gotham, and show the people it doesn't belong to the criminals and the corrupt etc.

Bale puts absolutely no energy into it at all. He acts like he's listing the issues that need to be addressed at a stockholder's meeting or something. He's dull, and almost sleepy in delivering these lines.

I agree with Lathrop. Bale did very good with Goyer's spoonfeeding lines. Any other actor with less talent than Bale would have sounded terrible.

[Catman]

Thats another thing that B89 does better. BB had whatever lines like, "its not who you are underneath but what you do that defines you."

How can you beat B89 lines like:
The Joker: Haven't you ever heard of the healing power of laughter?
The Joker: I've been dead once already; it's very liberating. You might think of it as... therapy.
The Joker: I'm givin' away free money, and where's the Batman? Home washing his tights?
[laughs]
The Joker: Jack is dead, my friend. You can call me Joker and as you can see I'm a lot happier.
The Joker: I have given a name to my pain, and it is Batman.
Alfred Pennyworth: I have little desire to spend my few remaining years grieving for the loss of old friends. Or their sons.
The Joker: Where does he get those wonderful toys?

Nic: Don't kill me! Don't kill me, man! Don't kill me! Don't kill me, man!
Batman: I'm not going to kill you. I want you to do me a favor. I want you to tell all your friends about me.
Nic: What are you?
Batman: I'm Batman.

Vicki Vale: Some people think you're as dangerous as the Joker.
Batman: He's psychotic.
Vicki Vale: Some people say the same about you.
Batman: What people?
Vicki Vale: Well, face it. You're not exactly normal, are you?
Batman: This isn't exactly a normal world, is it?

The Joker: Now comes the part where I relieve you, the little people, of the burden of your failed and useless lives. But remember, as my plastic surgeon always said: if you gotta go, go with a smile.

The Joker: [fuming] Batman... Batman... Can somebody tell me what kind of a world we live in, where a man dressed up as a *bat* gets all of my press? This town needs an enema!

Bruce Wayne: You want to get nuts? Come on! Lets get nuts! :D

[El Payaso]

There's one scene in Begins that really bothers me. The one on the plane, where Bruce is saying to Alfred how he is going to change Gotham, and show the people it doesn't belong to the criminals and the corrupt etc.

Bale puts absolutely no energy into it at all. He acts like he's listing the issues that need to be addressed at a stockholder's meeting or something. He's dull, and almost sleepy in delivering these lines.

I agree with Lathrop. Bale did very good with Goyer's spoonfeeding lines. Any other actor with less talent than Bale would have sounded terrible.

[Michael Myers]

Thats another thing that B89 does better. BB had whatever lines like, "its not who you are underneath but what you do that defines you."

How can you beat B89 lines like:
The Joker: Haven't you ever heard of the healing power of laughter?
The Joker: I've been dead once already; it's very liberating. You might think of it as... therapy.
The Joker: I'm givin' away free money, and where's the Batman? Home washing his tights?
[laughs]
The Joker: Jack is dead, my friend. You can call me Joker and as you can see I'm a lot happier.
The Joker: I have given a name to my pain, and it is Batman.
Alfred Pennyworth: I have little desire to spend my few remaining years grieving for the loss of old friends. Or their sons.
The Joker: Where does he get those wonderful toys?

Nic: Don't kill me! Don't kill me, man! Don't kill me! Don't kill me, man!
Batman: I'm not going to kill you. I want you to do me a favor. I want you to tell all your friends about me.
Nic: What are you?
Batman: I'm Batman.

Vicki Vale: Some people think you're as dangerous as the Joker.
Batman: He's psychotic.
Vicki Vale: Some people say the same about you.
Batman: What people?
Vicki Vale: Well, face it. You're not exactly normal, are you?
Batman: This isn't exactly a normal world, is it?

The Joker: Now comes the part where I relieve you, the little people, of the burden of your failed and useless lives. But remember, as my plastic surgeon always said: if you gotta go, go with a smile.

The Joker: [fuming] Batman... Batman... Can somebody tell me what kind of a world we live in, where a man dressed up as a *bat* gets all of my press? This town needs an enema!

Bruce Wayne: You want to get nuts? Come on! Lets get nuts! :D
Thats very, very true.

I definately agree that Batman 1989 had more memorable lines than Begins. Although there was quite a few great ones from Nolan's film, it just wasnt as abundant as Burton's film.

[Mee]

I don't think there's anyone who prefers the Begins costume or Batmobile to Batman's, so I'm just gonna go ahead and throw this one right out there.

I do. Suit and car.


I like Begins better in every way. Though I do still like Batman.

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I love both films equally which I have stated on these boards numerous times. Each one is a different view of the character that I enjoy, though I grew up on 89, Begins came out when I was an adult and the film itself fits well with my age. Its obvious that 89 was a film made for all audiences to enjoy, even families, though there were some somewhat disturbing parts included ( Obviously nowhere near anything in Returns) but Begins to me seems to be a more adult film. The 4 times I went to see Begins in the theaters, I saw mostly adults, not many children were present, I actually think children that have or will watch it will lose interest because the film dosent start right out with him in the suit straight to action ( which many people actually thought it was going to be like before seeing the film). Begins is definetly not to kids what Spiderman movies are these days, but I like it that way, I love Spiderman movies alot but I would never want to see a Batman film in this day in age marketed the way they do Spiderman ( 89 was the right time to blow up Batman the way they did), it would be too over the top for a serious comic book character. To stop blabbing and get to the point despites pros and cons of each film, I love them 100% equally!

[Bat Attack]

Anyone see Michelle Pheffier on Ellen yesterday? She looks better than ever! I was shocked to see her because she has been out of the spotlight for the past few years.

[DCW]

I do. Suit and car.


I like Begins better in every way. Though I do still like Batman.


^ You and Mee both, brother.

Gotta be honest, I love 89 and the sentimental value it has for me, growing up with it and all, but I'll take Begins over it anyday.

[The Chairman]

I have to agree with the B89 supporters. Batman Begins looks the wonder and nuances that I loved about B89. In BB, everything under the sun is thrown at you - how he became Batman, how he got his gadgets, and just about everything else you can think of.

In B89, very little is explained, thus leaving the mystery wide open and leaving the story open to interpretation, which I personally felt was the better approach. The mystery aura is, for me, the most important element of the character, and it Burton nailed it for me.

For me, Keaton's Batman and more importantly Bruce Wayne for me worked better on acting level than Bale. Yes, Bale may be a great actor, and he may be 6' tall and built like a tank, but his Batman was flawed. The one scene he came off as threatening or imposing for me was the dock scene. Other than that, I felt he was far too restrained, and when he was Bruce he felt a bit stiff. With Keaton, both in and out of the suit, I felt more connected to the characters persona, I got a better taste of the duality nature of both sides of the character, as well as the conflict it brought to all aspects in his life (though this worked more so in Batman Returns).

Similarly, with the exception of Neeson's Ra's, the villians in BB were completely uninteresting and never really came off as all that threatening. Nicholson's Joker oozed menace and fear. Many people say his Joker was corny, but I myself would be far more threatened by a guy with white skin, a permanent smile and the most terrifying voice and laugh you've ever heard than, a skinny, flamboyant doctor running around with a potato sack on his head.

I could go on with the reasons as to why I feel Burton's films are superior (superior dialogue, a better looking, creepier Gotham, more inventive direction, etc.), but it would be worthless at this point because the argument has already been done thousands of times.

In the end, as I've stated I prefer Burton's films. I love BB, but I doesn't work for me as much else than just as good as good origin story. TDK will hopefully be mindblowing, though.

[Agentsands77]

The mystery aura is, for me, the most important element of the character,
Really? I'm amazed that people rate this mystery so highly. After years in the comics, there's almost no mystery left in the character... everything's explained and explored. For me, it doesn't ruin the appeal of the character one bit, because what I find interesting is precisely how and why the character does things, not just leaving him as the great unexplained mystery man.

With Keaton, both in and out of the suit, I felt more connected to the characters persona, I got a better taste of the duality nature of both sides of the character, as well as the conflict it brought to all aspects in his life (though this worked more so in Batman Returns).
Batman is just starting out in BEGINS... duality isn't really going to be such an issue there, because the tension between the two aspects of his personality have only really started. Wayne hasn't started to really get lost in Batman yet. Similarly, the conflict it brings to "all aspects in his life" is just kicking into gear, and he only starts to realize that truth by the end of BEGINS.

My problem with Keaton is that I just don't buy his Bruce Wayne doing all that Batman does. I can't buy his Bruce Wayne as the kind of man who would be driven to fight crime year after year. In Bale's Wayne, there's a sort of residual darkness, a sort of intensity. Keaton's Wayne is just too much of a harmless oddball for me to reconcile it to the Batman persona. His Batman is undeniably magnificent, though.

Similarly, with the exception of Neeson's Ra's, the villians in BB were completely uninteresting and never really came off as all that threatening.
You don't find Murphy's Scarecrow (sure, he's a second-tier lackey, but I thought he was pretty fascinating) and Wilkinson's Falcone (another great character) at all interesting?

Furthermore, it's arguable that the only character who should be that threatening is Ra's himself. After all, Gotham City isn't yet full of costumed criminals. It's like saying, "None of the villains in BATMAN: YEAR ONE were anywhere near as threatening or memorable as the villains from later in Batman's career." Well, of course. Doesn't mean that YEAR ONE is flawed because of it, though.

Many people say his Joker was corny, but I myself would be far more threatened by a guy with white skin, a permanent smile and the most terrifying voice and laugh you've ever heard
than, a skinny, flamboyant doctor running around with a potato sack on his head.
Scratch that, and make that a guy with clearly painted-on and overly-makeupped white skin, a very fake-looking permanent smile, and a decent voice and a darn good laugh. :cwink:

Seriously, though, Nicholson's Joker was good, but let's not overstate things. He's not that scary, aside from a few moments (the "Boo!" is pretty good). If anything, I feel the Napier persona was far scarier than his Joker, if only for that extra bit of intensity. I wish Nicholson had carried more over from that. He's scary as hell when he's making his Joker introduction, with the whole "You set me up" bit, but as soon as he starts acting like a goofball, the intensity disappates and suddenly he's not as creepy. His Joker becomes a sort of pudgy buffoon, a prankster with a knack for killing people - not a really sinister murderer. Nothing wrong with that, but I wish he had been able to break it up with moments of a little more intensity and more stillness.

And has the Scarecrow ever been as intimidating and threatening as the Joker? The Scarecrow in the comics has essentially always been a dork who dresses up in a weird costume but is able to scare people through other means than himself. He's never been one of the top-tier villains, and it's not like BEGINS tries to make him one.

I love BB, but I doesn't work for me as much else than just as good as good origin story.
Isn't that all BATMAN BEGINS was supposed to be?

[pointman]

You know what? Imo B89 is the definitive comic book movie.....of all time.
1) It was made in freakin' '89 and still holds up to this day.
2) It took itself seriously as a movie but maintained the respect of the source material that its pure fantasy, meshing both elements together resulting in a glorious portrayal of Batmn's world.
3) Keaton as batman is the best and most solid comic book hero performance of all time imo....he just oozed it, he was a freakin' beast and sometimes still gives me a lil'fright. Just look at his face and listen to that voice, it's enough to make you crap your pants.
4) Great action, subtle character development
5) Billy D was in the movie...that alone rates it in the top 3 GOAL comic book movies
6) The film held together nicely and was never at any time boring
7) Has multiple viewing factor
8)No damn nipples

[Agentsands77]

You know what? Imo B89 is the definitive comic book movie.....of all time.
Suit yourself, but I would disagree. It's an iconic superhero entry, and certainly one of the ones worthy of recognition, but it's too flawed to ever be "definitive." As of now, I don't think we've seen a "definitive" comic book film. We've seen a few good ones, but they all have too many problems to be held up on any sort of pedestal.

1) It was made in freakin' '89 and still holds up to this day.
Uh, so did a lot of movies made in '89. It's not that remarkable. And BATMAN certainly looks older than '89, if you ask me (probably due to its low budget, moreso than anything).

[The Joker]

Agentsands77, you seem really insecure by the fact that other people like Batman 89 more than Begins.

Stop trying to ram your opinion down other people's throats.

[DieSmiling]

What I like about Batman (1989):

-The score. That theme is Batman.

-Gotham City. I love the way the city and architecture looks. I love the gothic Gotham over a more realistic modern city.

-The Batsuit and Batmobile; they just come off as the classic design, look awesome.

-Michael Keaton as Batman. He's iconic, I like his voice the most.

-It's classic Batman. Like Superman '78 and Spider-Man '02, it simply has the advantage of being the first big time movie on its star, so it has the iconic heritage you associate with it. John Williams' Superman score and Elfman's Batman and Spider-Man scores will always be most associated with their superheroes. It's classic Joker origin story, Batman vs. the Joker, the same way Superman '78 is Superman vs. Lex and Spider-Man is Spider-Man vs. the Goblin. It's the first definitive Batman movie, and that gives it standing.

-The mood is dark and gritty, and very Batman. I just love that Gothic Gotham with the classic mobster tone.


What I like about Begins:

-First and most importantly, the characterization of Batman, as well as the role Batman plays. This movie, as it's an origin story of course, understands what the Batman/Bruce Wayne character is all about, and displays that extremely well. Batman doesn't kill. I feel like Burton's Batman is so flat and hard to understand.

-The star of this movie is Batman -- it's his story. One thing that annoys me about all four previous movies is that the villains overshadow Batman. There is no doubt who the star of this movie is.

-Christain Bale is awesome as Bruce Wayne AND Batman -- I HATE Michael Keaton as Bruce Wayne. He comes off like such a weird neurotic doofus. Seriously, rewatch Batman '89 and tell me the love story between Bruce and Vicki isn't preposterously unbelievable and awkward.

-Overall I just think acting is Begins is much better than in Batman '89. This is certainly a debatable point, however.

-Begins has more substance, it has strong themes. It's true they beat you over the head with those themes, but I think the film has a much stronger emotional core, and it makes the characters seem more important.

-The care and focus given to Gordon and Alfred. Because of the way the story is written, they come off as very organic, deep, interesting characters who are important to the story. In Batman '89 they are simple one dimensional stock characters.

-It presents Batman as if it could actually happen, which I think is a very interesting take on the character.

Honestly, as a Batman fan I really like all five of the Batman movies (yes, even Batman and Robin in its own way) but at the end of the day I think Begins is just a better made overall film, and truer to the spirit of Batman. I still love Batman '89 though, it's certainly the classic and iconic take on the character, and it's also definitely better in a few ways of its own.

[DieSmiling]

Also, you'll never have a definitive comic book movie, as by definition all comic book characters have various interpretations. You'll never please everybody.

[Thespiralgoeson]

I think you nailed it on the head Catman. I mean, take for example, the scene in B89, where Bruce is about to go bomb the hell out of Axis Chemicals... you see him open up his Costume Chamber,,,and you hear the slow build up...the crescendo of the musical score as he fastens the bat belt onto his costume...then we see that tight shot of his emblem, and finally the closeup of his face as he looks up into the Batcave and all we see is the light playing off of his eerie eyes... i mean that little 5 second sequence gave me a serious chill factor down my spine...


Yes! Thank you! I LOVE that scene! I thought I was the only one who really appreciated it. All through Begins I found myself hoping for a scene like that.

What I like about Batman (1989):

-The score. That theme is Batman.

-Gotham City. I love the way the city and architecture looks. I love the gothic Gotham over a more realistic modern city.

-The Batsuit and Batmobile; they just come off as the classic design, look awesome.

-Michael Keaton as Batman. He's iconic, I like his voice the most.

-It's classic Batman. Like Superman '78 and Spider-Man '02, it simply has the advantage of being the first big time movie on its star, so it has the iconic heritage you associate with it. John Williams' Superman score and Elfman's Batman and Spider-Man scores will always be most associated with their superheroes. It's classic Joker origin story, Batman vs. the Joker, the same way Superman '78 is Superman vs. Lex and Spider-Man is Spider-Man vs. the Goblin. It's the first definitive Batman movie, and that gives it standing.

-The mood is dark and gritty, and very Batman. I just love that Gothic Gotham with the classic mobster tone.


What I like about Begins:

-First and most importantly, the characterization of Batman, as well as the role Batman plays. This movie, as it's an origin story of course, understands what the Batman/Bruce Wayne character is all about, and displays that extremely well. Batman doesn't kill. I feel like Burton's Batman is so flat and hard to understand.

-The star of this movie is Batman -- it's his story. One thing that annoys me about all four previous movies is that the villains overshadow Batman. There is no doubt who the star of this movie is.

-Christain Bale is awesome as Bruce Wayne AND Batman -- I HATE Michael Keaton as Bruce Wayne. He comes off like such a weird neurotic doofus. Seriously, rewatch Batman '89 and tell me the love story between Bruce and Vicki isn't preposterously unbelievable and awkward.

-Overall I just think acting is Begins is much better than in Batman '89. This is certainly a debatable point, however.

-Begins has more substance, it has strong themes. It's true they beat you over the head with those themes, but I think the film has a much stronger emotional core, and it makes the characters seem more important.

-The care and focus given to Gordon and Alfred. Because of the way the story is written, they come off as very organic, deep, interesting characters who are important to the story. In Batman '89 they are simple one dimensional stock characters.

-It presents Batman as if it could actually happen, which I think is a very interesting take on the character.

Honestly, as a Batman fan I really like all five of the Batman movies (yes, even Batman and Robin in its own way) but at the end of the day I think Begins is just a better made overall film, and truer to the spirit of Batman. I still love Batman '89 though, it's certainly the classic and iconic take on the character, and it's also definitely better in a few ways of its own.

This is pretty spot on. As for one film verses the other, I agree completely. The Zimmer/Howard score doesn't even compare to the Elfman score. Like you said, that score IS Batman. When I hear that score, I don't think "Tim Burton's Batman." I think "Batman." I really didn't care for the score in Begins at all. I also don't really like the batsuit in Begins. The black emblem on the black suit did nothing for me. I think the suit would've looked much better (and frankly, much more "Batman") if the suit itself was the classic dark grey, with the black emblem, cowl, boots, cape and gloves. It never really looked like the batsuit IMO. It just felt like it was missing something. With the exception of not being able to turn his head, I still think B89 is the definitive batsuit. It was basically just the Neal Adams Batman, only all black instead of blue and grey. Keaton also had the better Batman voice, hands down. Overall, I have to say I like the general look and atmosphere of Batman 89 more than Begins. But that's what Tim Burton's specialties are; look and atmosphere.

As for Begins, for me it is the definitive Batman origin story, no contest. I liked it WAY more than Year One. I just loved everything about Bruce's journey to ultimately becomming the Dark Knight. I loved how ALL the characters in the movie are given the respect they deserve in the Batman mythos, particularly Gordon, as well as the fact that for all the stuff that was going on (and there was a LOT going in Begins) Bruce/Batman himself was still the core of the film, and never overshadowed even for a second by the villains. Bale's performance was pitch perfect (corny sounding "Batman voice aside). I think he really was flawless as Bruce Wayne. And the rest of the ensemble cast never missed a beat either. The casting in Begins really was incredible. And lastly, what is perhaps Begins' greatest strength as a take on the character was the "realistic" aspect of the move. I know that word gets thrown around here so much, so I try to avoid using it. After all, Batman Begins really isn't anymore realistic than any other comic-based movie. But the film presents Batman in a way that seems realistic. Like you said, it really presents the story as if it could actually happen, and that's no small accomplishment, considering the characters and events really are quite preposterous. It's really quite an unconventional film. That's probably what I loved about it the most. It had to be, because Batman is a very, very unconventional comic hero. Nolan was the perfect choice to direct the film. I particular loved his non-linear story telling. He has a real gift for it, and uses it in all of his films. It's something you just don't see in other comic-based movies but it fit like a glove in Batman Begins.

I can't choose a favorite Batmobile. The 89 batmobile just looked really, really, really effing cool. But the tumbler blew me away as well. It just looked so powerful.

Both films really went the right direction in presenting the characters for their respective times. The Goldeneye/Casino Royale analogy is an apporpriate one. Batman 89 put Batman back in the limelight and introduced the dark, intimidating, serious Batman to the general public who were still largely only familiar with the 60's tv show. Begins re-invented the character again for us all and gave us Bat-fans the faithfull-to-the-comics film we'd been waiting for for so long.

I'll never be able to choose a favorite. As a life-long Batman devotee, they both gave me everything I wanted.

[The Joker]

The replay vaulue for B89 is much greater than Begins, for me.

[batbat_29640]

Batman '89...more "depth"?

You can't see me laughing histerically. I histerically join you in laughter. Man . . . are you and I the only ones that actually read Batman comics before B89 was released?

[Kevin Roegele]

I histerically join you in laughter. Man . . . are you and I the only ones that actually read Batman comics before B89 was released?

Well, I'm laughing too, but at your comment. The obvious flaw in your argument is that your'e NOT looking at the films themselves, you're looking at the comics.

[batbat_29640]

Well, I'm laughing too, but at your comment. The obvious flaw in your argument is that your'e NOT looking at the films themselves, you're looking at the comics. I cannot view a Batman movie without refering to the source material that came before. I do look at the films themselves. B89 just had too many boring moments. Keaton was no doubt great . . . as Batman. But it's the elements around Batman that help give substance to the movie. How can you have a good Batman movie without the necessary friendship of Jim Gordan and Batman?
The flaw in YOUR argument is obviously that I can't judge a Batman movie based on my love and lore of the character.

[TDK]

I love both movies.

[Kevin Roegele]

Batman Begins certainly has better action than Batman '89.

[Spider-Bat]

89 is the best. BB is dull.

[El Payaso]

Batman Begins certainly has better action than Batman '89.

Oh where... the extras maybe?

[Spoarz™]

I really like Batman Begins, it is an excellent movie. However, personally I much prefer Batman (1989) and Batman Returns. Tim Burton's movies seem to have captured an essence to Batman that Chris Nolan's film doesn't quite have, and in taking such a realistic approach to the character, Batman Begins often seems more like an action film with Batman in it, than a comic book brought to life, which is what Burton's films achieved in my opinion.

Also, as with Superman The Movie, I feel that Burton's movies (particularly Batman 1989) seemed to get so many aspects to the film just right, with Michael Keaton as Batman, Jack Nicholson as The Joker, Danny Elfman's mesmerising score, the set design, the Batmobile etc.

I don't think any other Batman film will ever quite top Tim Burton's films for me. :up:

[Dr. Fate]

I like both. I refuse to have a preference between the two.

[Bruce_Wayne29]

Great thread. Everybody in here is making great points for both movies and I agree with most of them. I love both movies but the first one (actually the first two for that matter) is very special to me. It's just so iconic, so fun, so epic ! Everything just clicks from sets to actors, to music, to story, to dialogues, ending. And most of all there's Keaton.
He made my hero came to life and I'll always be forever grateful to him for that. He was the special something that made all the rest work.

[batbat_29640]

http://www.vh1.com/movies/movie/239765/news/articles/1504042/story.jhtml
My sentiments exactly!!

[Damiean Dark]

I think because BB is still relatively new people will still praise it over B89/BR but give it 18/15 years and see if it still stands the test of time B89 has.

Micheal Keaton IS the Batman!.