Why Raimi will not do the Lizard

[Kevin Roegele]

The Lizard's story is told in Spider-Man 2. Raimi and co wrote the Lizard's story - and then gave it to Doctor Octopus. You can watch the film and see the parts of it that were supposed to be Connors and the Lizard, performed by Ock instead.

[Stripesy Strip]

Good point. Yea the idea with Lizard is that he's a good man, a scientist that has a sort of relationship with Peter Parker. There's an accident and there's this hate/love relationship that develop with Spidey when the scientist becomes a villain. In the comics, Doc Ock is never a respected, likable scientist. And there's no frienship with Spidey. Dock Ock is this fat, blow-hard nerdy scientist who lives in his little world.

[Dark Spidey]

The Lizard's story is told in Spider-Man 2. Raimi and co wrote the Lizard's story - and then gave it to Doctor Octopus. You can watch the film and see the parts of it that were supposed to be Connors and the Lizard, performed by Ock instead.

Yeah. Also, did you catch the line in Spidey 3 where Connors says that he's a physicist and not a biologist?

[The Lizard]

Thus we need a new director for future Spidey movies. :cmad:

[pjspider1C]

Um... even if that is true, it doesn't mean we won't see The Lizard. Doc Ock was just a more popular, classic villian. So even if Doc Ock "took the lizard's story," that doesn't mean there are no more stories to tell with the Lizard.

[Kevin Roegele]

Um... even if that is true, it doesn't mean we won't see The Lizard. Doc Ock was just a more popular, classic villian. So even if Doc Ock "took the lizard's story," that doesn't mean there are no more stories to tell with the Lizard.

There's no, 'even if that's true" - it is true, that is what happened.

[CaptainStacy]

The Lizard's story is told in Spider-Man 2. Raimi and co wrote the Lizard's story - and then gave it to Doctor Octopus. You can watch the film and see the parts of it that were supposed to be Connors and the Lizard, performed by Ock instead.

Except Ock and Rosie had no children.

The Conners have their son, Billy, who can easily be made the focal point of the story, as most of the Lizard appearances in the comic have Conners transforming and going after/kidnapping his own son...

Thinking they have to present the Conners family in the exact same way the Octavius family was portrayed is just one dimensional thinking, imo.

[Kevin Roegele]

Except Ock and Rosie had no children.

The Conners have their son, Billy, who can easily be made the focal point of the story, as most of the Lizard appearances in the comic have Conners transforming and going after/kidnapping his own son...

Thinking they have to present the Conners family in the exact same way the Octavius family was portrayed is just one dimensional thinking, imo.

I'm not suggesting there is only one way to tell Connor's story, but Raimi's way has already been done.

[CaptainStacy]

I'm not suggesting there is only one way to tell Connor's story, but Raimi's way has already been done.

Yes, because Raimi has displayed such a lack of imagination and creativity the past 20 years of his illustrious career, that there is no way he could present the Conners in any other way, other than to make them carbon copies of the way he presented the Octavius family, so yeah, you're right; let's just scrap this whole "Lizard" idea. What was i thinking? :whatever:

[superduperhero]

Except Ock and Rosie had no children.

The Conners have their son, Billy, who can easily be made the focal point of the story, as most of the Lizard appearances in the comic have Conners transforming and going after/kidnapping his own son...

Thinking they have to present the Conners family in the exact same way the Octavius family was portrayed is just one dimensional thinking, imo.

Sounds a bit like Sandman's current story.... And that didn't work too well....

[BobJM]

Sounds like Sandman's story in the book, not the film. In the film, the family was in one scene and there was little mention of them after that.

In SM2, after Rosie dies, Otto stops being the family man that he once was.

But, in Lizard's case, have the family be an main part of his story and have them present throughout the whole film. If done right, Lizard could separate himself from his villain predecessors.

[BobJM]

Yeah. Also, did you catch the line in Spidey 3 where Connors says that he's a physicist and not a biologist?

Catman said this in another thread and it made that line plausible.

After studying the symbiote and learning of its patterns of bonding with a host and attaching itself to other beings, Connor's interest in biology is risen. He begins to realize that this sample could help him unlock the secrets of limb regeneration and finally regrow him lost arm.

[Spiderine]

If they don't do the Lizard which I think would be a mistake, where do they go from here?

[DACrowe]

My suggestion is to play off of this fact. Peter can find out the Lizard-monster in the sewers is Conners via his family. He and MJ are engaged so he is worrying if they can make it (after SM3 and what May said) and he sees what a superpowered figure does to the Conners family. He also sees parallels to Norman, Otto and Harry, but this time he will not die, he WILL save Conners. And thus enter Kraven trying to kill the Lizard and Spider-Man is defending a villain trying to kill him from another villain who will kill Spidey to get to the Lizard (enter live burial).

It works.

[Kevin Roegele]

Yes, because Raimi has displayed such a lack of imagination and creativity the past 20 years of his illustrious career, that there is no way he could present the Conners in any other way, other than to make them carbon copies of the way he presented the Octavius family, so yeah, you're right; let's just scrap this whole "Lizard" idea. What was i thinking? :whatever:

Relax, dude. I'm not suggesting Raimi couldn't tell the story another way, but that as an artist, he has already expressed what he wanted to express thru Doc Ock.

[Mr. Socko]

Perfect reason why we'll get a new director sooner or later.

[Shockdingo]

My suggestion is to play off of this fact. Peter can find out the Lizard-monster in the sewers is Conners via his family. He and MJ are engaged so he is worrying if they can make it (after SM3 and what May said) and he sees what a superpowered figure does to the Conners family. He also sees parallels to Norman, Otto and Harry, but this time he will not die, he WILL save Conners. And thus enter Kraven trying to kill the Lizard and Spider-Man is defending a villain trying to kill him from another villain who will kill Spidey to get to the Lizard (enter live burial).

It works.

I couldn't have said it better. The bolded points would really sell this film. I want something like this to be in the movies. No Carnage, no Blackcat. Both would be redundant; Pete's love life went through the crapper big time in this film, he can't keep almost losing MJ due to temptation or whatever. A symbiote villain would be a rehash, I'm a broken record, I've said this numerous times Carange wouldn't work especially if they try to have a Spidey-Venom team up. It was (in my opinion, ok?) fine in the comics, but in the movies it wouldn't make a like of sense. Kraven would be great. And it wouldn't be hard to make him non-cheesey (I myself never thought of him as cheesey, but you get my idea)

[JackBauer]

My suggestion is to play off of this fact. Peter can find out the Lizard-monster in the sewers is Conners via his family. He and MJ are engaged so he is worrying if they can make it (after SM3 and what May said) and he sees what a superpowered figure does to the Conners family. He also sees parallels to Norman, Otto and Harry, but this time he will not die, he WILL save Conners. And thus enter Kraven trying to kill the Lizard and Spider-Man is defending a villain trying to kill him from another villain who will kill Spidey to get to the Lizard (enter live burial).

It works.

that's f***in great. never really thought of it from that POV. :up:

[Catman]

The Lizard will appear on the big screen but with Doc Ock's story. In Spidey 6, HE, will form the Sinister Six instead of Ock. You'll see!

[jrotaryb]

My suggestion is to play off of this fact. Peter can find out the Lizard-monster in the sewers is Conners via his family. He and MJ are engaged so he is worrying if they can make it (after SM3 and what May said) and he sees what a superpowered figure does to the Conners family. He also sees parallels to Norman, Otto and Harry, but this time he will not die, he WILL save Conners. And thus enter Kraven trying to kill the Lizard and Spider-Man is defending a villain trying to kill him from another villain who will kill Spidey to get to the Lizard (enter live burial).

It works.

Nice - solid story for Spider-man. We'll need more for Peter though as these movies are about Peter 1st, Spidey 2nd.

I see Peter and MJ engaged for a while with a wedding coming up soon. Peter is about to graduate from college and is an assistant for Doc Connors and his research on limb regeneration. As stated elsewhere, perhaps his interest in the symbiote sparked a study in biology and since Peter brought the sample he is the natural choice for an assistant...almost a thank-you for Peter to keep him involved.

Now that Peter has a wedding on the horizon he's thinking longterm about family and that is where we need to go for the 4th flick. Peter's involvement in this research with Connors could increase his chances in choosing a graduate program and help his career in science (remember those rough grades in #2).

While Peter has found a decent balance in his duties as a student/spidey, being a superhero does still get in the way now and again. Connor's transformation into the lizard has to be partly Peter's fault as a result of putting crime-fighting ahead of his studies.

After his first battle with the Lizard, Peter confides in MJ in that he's looking ahead in life and getting nervous. He can't put MJ first (as Aunt May instructed in #3) as spidey will always get in the way of a family. Moreover, he's guilt ridden in his role in Connors becoming the Lizard and what it's done to HIS family. MJ is true to her comic identity this time around and is Peter's rock. She accepts the fact that Peter can't always be there and reminds him of his importance to the city. Still, Peter struggles...

Then Aunt May falls ill...something that nobody could have prevented like a heart attack or stroke. It isn't sure if she'll live or die and while Peter should be with his family he still has this Lizard running around town that HE is partly responsible for. For the greater good, he has to leave his family to stop the Lizard and it's very hard for him. Afterall, he never knew his parents. His uncle is dead and he could have stopped it. Now the only mother he's ever known may die and while he can't even be there with her.

Kraven should be a part of it as well, though as a side-plot IMHO.

Any thoughts? I'd love to see MJ begin to thrive in a modeling career and it'd be cool to see Peter involved with the photo book of Spider-man (titled "Webs, ala the late 80's David Michelinie days). It could mean nice $ for Parker, but the photos are owned by the Bugle and Jameson. He takes the lion's share of the profits and Peter gets shafted on the back end...typical Parker luck :)

[jrotaryb]

My suggestion is to play off of this fact. Peter can find out the Lizard-monster in the sewers is Conners via his family. He and MJ are engaged so he is worrying if they can make it (after SM3 and what May said) and he sees what a superpowered figure does to the Conners family. He also sees parallels to Norman, Otto and Harry, but this time he will not die, he WILL save Conners. And thus enter Kraven trying to kill the Lizard and Spider-Man is defending a villain trying to kill him from another villain who will kill Spidey to get to the Lizard (enter live burial).

It works.

Nice - solid story for Spider-man. We'll need more for Peter though as these movies are about Peter 1st, Spidey 2nd.

I see Peter and MJ engaged for a while with a wedding coming up soon. Peter is about to graduate from college and is an assistant for Doc Connors and his research on limb regeneration. As stated elsewhere, perhaps his interest in the symbiote sparked a study in biology and since Peter brought the sample he is the natural choice for an assistant...almost a thank-you for Peter to keep him involved.

Now that Peter has a wedding on the horizon he's thinking longterm about family and that is where we need to go for the 4th flick. Peter's involvement in this research with Connors could increase his chances in choosing a graduate program and help his career in science (remember those rough grades in #2).

While Peter has found a decent balance in his duties as a student/spidey, being a superhero does still get in the way now and again. Connor's transformation into the lizard has to be partly Peter's fault as a result of putting crime-fighting ahead of his studies.

After his first battle with the Lizard, Peter confides in MJ in that he's looking ahead in life and getting nervous. He can't put MJ first (as Aunt May instructed in #3) as spidey will always get in the way of a family. Moreover, he's guilt ridden in his role in Connors becoming the Lizard and what it's done to HIS family. MJ is true to her comic identity this time around and is Peter's rock. She accepts the fact that Peter can't always be there and reminds him of his importance to the city. Still, Peter struggles...

Then Aunt May falls ill...something that nobody could have prevented like a heart attack or stroke. It isn't sure if she'll live or die and while Peter should be with his family he still has this Lizard running around town that HE is partly responsible for. For the greater good, he has to leave his family to stop the Lizard and it's very hard for him. Afterall, he never knew his parents. His uncle is dead and he could have stopped it. Now the only mother he's ever known may die and while he can't even be there with her.

Kraven should be a part of it as well, though as a side-plot IMHO.

Any thoughts? I'd love to see MJ begin to thrive in a modeling career and it'd be cool to see Peter involved with the photo book of Spider-man (titled "Webs", ala the late 80's David Michelinie days). It could mean nice $ for Parker, but the photos are owned by the Bugle and Jameson. He takes the lion's share of the profits and Peter gets shafted on the back end...typical Parker luck :)

[dodus]

That is an extremely sweet proposal for a Lizard-centric 4.

And I don't think the Lizard's complete potential has been tapped for Ock--the Lizard's sympathetic, yes, but completely unique in that he has the werewolf thing going on.

[jrotaryb]

There is definitely more there - remember, Spidey lore has been altered for every movie so there are tons of possibilities. Very little has been established for Doc Connors in the films other than the fact that he's a brilliant scientist, a fair Professor and he's missing his right arm.

[Maximum Carnage]

I dont even think raimi will direct the next spiderman movies. I think were possibly looking at a whole new lineup. i predict the lizard and carnage with spiderman 4. and i cant shake the feeling that venom isnt done. hes too big of a part to just end in one movie.

[jrotaryb]

Carnage is just a bad, BAD idea. He is such a weak character in the comics and so one dimensional. Eddie Brock was never a great characterization either, but there were some great elements there such as: Eddie/Venom's twisted view of morality and the way he'd stalk Peter.

Carnage is a completely flat character with no motivations other than the fact that he's a lunatic. While it made for some entertaining comics in the 90's, it's not right for a feature film.

Remember, the spidey movies should center around Peter. As soon as these scripts are written simply around cool fights the series will die.

I think the symbiote should be finished in the films, though I do agree with many people in that there was enough for Eddie/Venom to make a complete movie.

[Venom 1988]

Carnage is just a bad, BAD idea. He is such a weak character in the comics and so one dimensional. Eddie Brock was never a great characterization either, but there were some great elements there such as: Eddie/Venom's twisted view of morality and the way he'd stalk Peter.

Carnage is a completely flat character with no motivations other than the fact that he's a lunatic. While it made for some entertaining comics in the 90's, it's not right for a feature film.

Remember, the spidey movies should center around Peter. As soon as these scripts are written simply around cool fights the series will die.

I think the symbiote should be finished in the films, though I do agree with many people in that there was enough for Eddie/Venom to make a complete movie.

Agreed :up:

[Alex]

Because they couldn't change his story even a bit, right?

[bellepheron]

Raimi obviously would do the lizard story!! There have been links on this website to articles where the guy who play Connors had said that raimi has already been discussing the lizard with him..........

Close this thread it sucks, lets open up more spiderman 3 hate threads!!!

[Eddie Brock]

Close this thread it sucks, lets open up more spiderman 3 hate threads!!!
Oh, go play in traffic. Spider-Man 3 was great...let's see you make anything HALF as good.

[bellepheron]

Oh, go play in traffic. Spider-Man 3 was great...let's see you make anything HALF as good.

Give me 250 million dollars and im pretty sure i could and the point was why do we have a thread about something that has no basis in reality, raimi has already been discussing the lizard with his cast!! And seriously its not that gr8 i recommend u go watch hulk, daredevil or even elektra for sum more great marvel films.................

[Eddie Brock]

Give me 250 million dollars and im pretty sure i could and the point was why do we have a thread about something that has no basis in reality, raimi has already been discussing the lizard with his cast!! And seriously its not that gr8 i recommend u go watch hulk, daredevil or even elektra for sum more great marvel films.................
Hulk sucked...and I never saw Elektra.

You have a very twisted sense of "great films."

[Alex]

Give me 250 million dollars and im pretty sure i could and the point was why do we have a thread about something that has no basis in reality, raimi has already been discussing the lizard with his cast!! And seriously its not that gr8 i recommend u go watch hulk, daredevil or even elektra for sum more great marvel films.................
I'm pretty sure you couldn't, but your mind is set, so whatever.

Spiderman 3 is better than those three films. The Hulk is terrible, Daredevil is all right, but could be a lot better and Elektra, although probably better than the Hulk, still wasn't a great movie.

[Tempest19]

Does anyone have that interview with Dylan Baker that he said that Raimi kept dropping hints on him to prepare for becoming the Lizard in a future movie, possibly Spider-Man 4?

The lizard, in my mind, is more or less guaranteed- they had the story during the filming of Spider-Man 3. Avi said that SM4 already has a story in a recent interview, Raimi has been reportedly hinting to the Lizard and expanding Doctor Connors' role in the film- expect the Lizard. It's a CLASSIC villain.

[bellepheron]

Hulk sucked...and I never saw Elektra.

You have a very twisted sense of "great films."

It's called sarcasm.... obviously they arent good films!!

Neway heres the link for tempest19

http://www.ifmagazine.com/new.asp?article=4055

[Spidey-Quad]

No Carnage, too many other rogues to explore. Who needs a differant colored Venom?

[Eddie Brock]

No Carnage, too many other rogues to explore. Who needs a differant colored Venom?
I'm not defending Carnage, but who needs a different colored Goblin?

[spideyman101]

You have a point... but I think the only reason they decided to switch Lizard with Ock is clearly that in terms of a movie, you MUST have more time for the two characters (Peter and Connors) to bond and create a friendship.

Bringing Lizard in SM2 would have been a mistake, because in the comics Pete and Connors were good friends, and 5 minutes before a DNA-mutation accident would not achieve that on screen.

[L0ngsh0t]

I don't know if I agree with this

yeah sympathetic scientist has been done before, but the different take they can do with the Lizard, that they didn't do with Doc Ock, is how his familey, and relationship with Peter Parker affect the story

granted Parker, and octavious have had some connection, but they could really front end the movie, with the beginning of the movie being Parker and Stacy stay up real late working with Conners on an experiment, and he tells Parker how much he has improved, and how he is like a son to him now, and how Parker precieves him as kind of a father figure etc. And then emotionally this dissuades Parker from ultimatley killing the Lizard, when (hopefully) Kraven the Hunter, wants to kill the Lizard

Or like, Aunt May gets on her death Bed, and Conners saves her, so Spidey is like, he helped me once, now I have to help him

I dunno, there is more than one take they can do with the Lizard, I garuntee he is the next main villain

[DareDemon]

I don't know why people hate Raimi for Connors being a physicist and not a biologist. Perheps the reason he'll become a monster in the movies is BECAUSE he's not a biologist? It's not that big of a stretch to imagine someone who isn't in that field making a big mistake.

[Mr. Socko]

I believe Raimi wouldn't mind using Lizard if he's on the next project.

[FaT_tONle]

Raimi SHOULDn't be on the next project... he got exposed for what he was... I would have no problems with another director stepping in as well as new actors... Baker has got to be back as Conners... thats the only thing I worry about

[Alex]

Raimi SHOULDn't be on the next project... he got exposed for what he was... I would have no problems with another director stepping in as well as new actors... Baker has got to be back as Conners... thats the only thing I worry about
A good director?

[Eddie Brock]

A good director?
Exactly.

[Visionary]

My suggestion is to play off of this fact. Peter can find out the Lizard-monster in the sewers is Conners via his family. He and MJ are engaged so he is worrying if they can make it (after SM3 and what May said) and he sees what a superpowered figure does to the Conners family. He also sees parallels to Norman, Otto and Harry, but this time he will not die, he WILL save Conners. And thus enter Kraven trying to kill the Lizard and Spider-Man is defending a villain trying to kill him from another villain who will kill Spidey to get to the Lizard (enter live burial).

It works.
Great idea, sounds pretty solid. :cool: