How can Superman become the icon again?

[The Batman]

What do you think this movie should do to put superman back at the forefront of the pop culture conciousness?

[Showtime]

I don't think this movie made Superman any less of an icon in regards to pop culture. Superman was everywhere, and because of Returns Superman is anywhere and everywhere. It's still cool to display the Superman logo on shirts or other areas, the movie didn't diminsh this, it only enhanced this. So despite the only solid performance of the movie, not great. Superman is still an icon.

[Eros]

yea hes an icon, peope may not think hes cool or a badass or anything, but hes still an icon.

[Showtime]

I see the \S/ everywhere.

[merced]

What do you think this movie should do to put superman back at the forefront of the pop culture conciousness?

Marvel is bringing back Thor and Iron Man and other old characters. It can be done to make Superman the top icon again. The 'S' is one of the most marketable symbols ever.

[Excel]

supermans everywhere; but returns kinda...didnt help or hurt the impact. It could of done either, but it was in da middle.
how to get supes back on top?

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=272696

[dude love]

Well, these days there's more kids with Superman T-shirts. I even see adults wearing them from time to time. So Returns helped present and introduce Superman to the younger audiences.

[The Kid]

Bruce timm's movie needs to come out. that's all.

[memphissuperman]

Superman will always be the "icon" period!Heck I'm proof of that because I have a (s) tat on my right arm!:)

But to stick with the topic most avg Superman fans only know what they have seen in the movies and nothing wrong with that at all but no one has really explored everything that is Superman and all his enemies etc..I'm hoping the next Superman movie starts going that way.

Sadly no one has seen the "badass" Superman yet because he hasn't had a challenge on screen but I think/hope that is about to change.

[Thespiralgoeson]

You need a Dolorian, a flux capacitor, and a bolt of lightening.

[Steelsheen]

You need a Dolorian, a flux capacitor, and a bolt of lightening.

aint that the truth? ;)


although i think what The Batman means to say is how to bring back that feeling that Superman "is the Main Man", the guy everyone looks up to, the guy everybody is proud of to say he's their hero, you know, Super Hero Numero Uno. because right now, when you say Superman, you'd probably get a snicker on the side saying "boyscout" or "boring" or "bastard father".

right now Batman is getting that recognition. i'm not saying he doesnt deserve it, but Batman has always shunned the spotlight, it feels kinda wierd that he's rallying the troops now while Superman wallows in the shadows.

[superbaby]

aint that the truth? ;)


although i think what The Batman means to say is how to bring back that feeling that Superman "is the Main Man", the guy everyone looks up to, the guy everybody is proud of to say he's their hero, you know, Super Hero Numero Uno. because right now, when you say Superman, you'd probably get a snicker on the side saying "boyscout" or "boring" or "bastard father".

right now Batman is getting that recognition. i'm not saying he doesnt deserve it, but Batman has always shunned the spotlight, it feels kinda wierd that he's rallying the troops now while Superman wallows in the shadows.
batman???
i thought spiderman is the one.
and i don't think BB2 will do very good.

back to the topic. it's easy. when WB can do the "right thing" for Superman, he will be back to his prime again.

[Steelsheen]

batman???
i thought spiderman is the one.
trying to keep the discussion within DC boundaries. ;)

[November Rain]

he needs to represent and fight the issues that people are thinking about now.

unfortunately he's become a charicature of himself instead.

[FlawlessVictory]

Well, these days there's more kids with Superman T-shirts. I even see adults wearing them from time to time. So Returns helped present and introduce Superman to the younger audiences.

I rarely see kids with a Superman shirt on. I always see them with Spider-Man shirts and bookbags. And not just this year, this has been the last few years at least.

And honestly, even though it doesn't really matter to me, and is by no means an indicator of quality of a movie, I wonder, how many kids, actually really liked Superman Returns.

[Showtime]

Younger kids are easier to please I would imagine, but as they get more opinionated I would imagine they disliked Returns more.

I think the \S/ and what the \S/ represents was already present before Returns came out, but the Year of Superman amped up the presence of Superman. It wasn't just Returns, it was many different incarnations of Superman. He was everywhere.

[darkseid26]

just the other day i saw a truck with a huge \s/ across its hood with red, yellow, and blue striking down to the end of the truck.

supes still an icon.

[Angeloz]

Vader could freeze him in carbonite.

Wrong film. Never mind. :oldrazz: ;) :)

Angeloz

[nintendo nerd]

What do you think this movie should do to put superman back at the forefront of the pop culture conciousness?

He is still the icon. IMO Superman Returns prove that by showing all his powers and good inside him. That even though he is from another planet, he would do everything to help the people of Earth, even if it cost him his own life. IMO.

[Matt]

I don't think this movie made Superman any less of an icon in regards to pop culture. Superman was everywhere, and because of Returns Superman is anywhere and everywhere. It's still cool to display the Superman logo on shirts or other areas, the movie didn't diminsh this, it only enhanced this. So despite the only solid performance of the movie, not great. Superman is still an icon.

Someone can be an icon with negative corrolation however (I mean, if you want to get technical, Osama Bin Laden is an icon), and I think that would be a more appropriate context for the question. How do you make Superman a "popular icon" again? I think this movie has proven that his popularity has floundered a bit and it is arguable that the movie hurt public perception of him.

[CConn]

I think this movie has proven that his popularity has floundered a bit and it is arguable that the movie hurt public perception of him.
Argued by retarded people, maybe.

Personally, I'm simply of the opinion Superman just isn't a hero of...well, this age. As...depressing as it may be, people aren't looking for someone to look up to, someone who highlights all the great things about humanity, no, they'd much rather prefer that flawed, ****ed up hero in a mask, than a beacon of light in Superman.

[Sun_Down]

Public opinion is such a variable thing. Superman is, was and always will be THE superhero, but right now, he's simply not AS popular.

[DrMylesOBoogie]

he would be the #1 icon if Smallville was written better and if he had a truly great movie in the last 10 years. sadly smallville never lived up to its potential and Superman Returns was one of the biggest turkies to ever be released.

[Showtime]

Someone can be an icon with negative corrolation however (I mean, if you want to get technical, Osama Bin Laden is an icon), and I think that would be a more appropriate context for the question. How do you make Superman a "popular icon" again? I think this movie has proven that his popularity has floundered a bit and it is arguable that the movie hurt public perception of him.

Very good point my friend. An Icon doesnt necessarily have to be a positive category. I think the version of Superman featured in Returns wasn't popular with the crowds, but I don't think it diminished the popularity of the symbol. I think the symbol is more popular than the character.

[merced]

Argued by retarded people, maybe.

Personally, I'm simply of the opinion Superman just isn't a hero of...well, this age. As...depressing as it may be, people aren't looking for someone to look up to, someone who highlights all the great things about humanity, no, they'd much rather prefer that flawed, ****ed up hero in a mask, than a beacon of light in Superman.

I don't like a flawed Superman. He can still be given an edge. Not black and white. Having fun with the powers and scaring the bad guys with a wink and nod. I think he can have an edge without being flawed.

[FlawlessVictory]

Argued by retarded people, maybe.

Personally, I'm simply of the opinion Superman just isn't a hero of...well, this age. As...depressing as it may be, people aren't looking for someone to look up to, someone who highlights all the great things about humanity, no, they'd much rather prefer that flawed, ****ed up hero in a mask, than a beacon of light in Superman.

But this Superman was flawed! Granted, he wasn't as f'd up as some of the other heroes but he definitely still had his issues. In fact, this is why some posters and fans weren't that taken with the character in the film(because of the "baggage" and personal issues he had in the film). If anything, he was sort of less the character we usually look up to with no questions asked.

[Showtime]

I think Superman had to redeem himself to the world in Returns, it wasn't necessarily receied well, going that way. I do think that it was about Superman learning a lesson, realizing his place in the world. Again, that approach didn't resonate to a good amount of viewers.

[superbaby]

Very good point my friend. An Icon doesnt necessarily have to be a positive category. I think the version of Superman featured in Returns wasn't popular with the crowds, but I don't think it diminished the popularity of the symbol. I think the symbol is more popular than the character.
that's how the marketing of SR fail. they thought just showing the \S/ wouls sell the movie...

[Steelsheen]

he would be the #1 icon if Smallville was written better and if he had a truly great movie in the last 10 years. sadly smallville never lived up to its potential and Superman Returns was one of the biggest turkies to ever be released.

i've been thinking if the popularity of Smallville is affecting how Superman performs at the movies. i'm thinking if the general public as reached a saturation point with all things Superman related it would make sense that they would look for something new on the big screen since they already get a regular doze of it from TV.

its just a thought.

[Showtime]

I think alot of these theories, Smallville included, are all a piece of the pie.

[OzzMosiz]

Well, these days there's more kids with Superman T-shirts. I even see adults wearing them from time to time. So Returns helped present and introduce Superman to the younger audiences.

I asked my best mates step son (8) what he thought of Superman Returns.
He didn't like it (I guess he found the action boring). He did however like Batman Begins, X-Men, Spider-man and Fantastic Four.

Personally I thought it was great

[TheComicbookKid]

That's part of the problem.

Kids didn't like the movie, and adults did. I showed my adult sister it and she loved it, but Superman ,more than any other hero, is seen as a kid's hero.
It does worry me about the sequel whether people kids will come out in full force after SR set a tone that wasn't kiddy.

[El Payaso]

I know how Superman is traditionally perceived, but I thank God SR wasn't that kiddy, no matter the BO.

[COMPO]

You need a Dolorian, a flux capacitor, and a bolt of lightening.

Once we power this up to 88 mph. You're going to see some serious ****.

[COMPO]

I'd love it if we got a different version this time rather than just donners although i thought music was a good change and that but, i'd like to see a more assertive Clark Kent this time.

[BareKnucklez]

That's part of the problem.

Kids didn't like the movie, and adults did. I showed my adult sister it and she loved it, but Superman ,more than any other hero, is seen as a kid's hero.
It does worry me about the sequel whether people kids will come out in full force after SR set a tone that wasn't kiddy.

Your Adult Sister liked it because SR was a chick flick, and not a real Superman movie... She is in a short list because even chicks mostly didn't like SR.

One of the many many issues I have with the movie is that it's a F'IN Chick flick! :whatever:

[merced]

Your Adult Sister liked it because SR was a chick flick, and not a real Superman movie... She is in a short list because even chicks mostly didn't like SR.

One of the many many issues I have with the movie is that it's a F'IN Chick flick! :whatever:

He seems to have lost the guys. Its why I think he needs to get edgier and not be so boy scout.

[El Payaso]

Your Adult Sister liked it because SR was a chick flick, and not a real Superman movie... She is in a short list because even chicks mostly didn't like SR.

One of the many many issues I have with the movie is that it's a F'IN Chick flick! :whatever:

Casablanca is a chic flick for that matter and no one flies there so big meh.

[superbaby]

3 elements to make the movie a huge hit; exciting, touching and inspiring. unfortunately SR has none of these but just the superman name...

[Steelsheen]

3 elements to make the movie a huge hit; exciting, touching and inspiring. unfortunately SR has none of these but just the superman name...

to be fair SR does have some level of excitement and touching scenes, but there is hardly anything about it that would make you feel inspired.

which is why i think it didnt have any legs at the box office. this is Superman. despite being heckled as the Big Blue Boyscout, people still look to him for inspiration. they got none of that in this movie.

[CGHulk]

Brighten the look of the film, less orange. Bring back the classic suit and amazing aerial flight sequences, not like the left and right and up and down shots we got in SR. Get writers that know the mythology of Superman! Hire ILM to do the effects!!!

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

Great supervillians that can possibly kick Superman's ass.

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

Brighten the look of the film, less orange. Bring back the classic suit and amazing aerial flight sequences, not like the left and right and up and down shots we got in SR. Get writers that know the mythology of Superman! Hire ILM to do the effects!!!

I defenitely agree with the last part.

If we are going to get 2 supervillians for the next film I hope they hire ILM to do the effects.

[The Kid]

Bruce timm's movie needs to come out. that's all.

hmmm. I agree

[Matt]

But this Superman was flawed! Granted, he wasn't as f'd up as some of the other heroes but he definitely still had his issues. In fact, this is why some posters and fans weren't that taken with the character in the film(because of the "baggage" and personal issues he had in the film). If anything, he was sort of less the character we usually look up to with no questions asked.

While he was flawed, he wasn't the kind of flawed audiences like. Giving someone an illigitiment child and *****y ex doesn't make them flawed in a good way. It makes them flawed in a dead beat dad sort of way.

Look at Jack Bauer, he is a popular flawed hero. His flaw? He gave up everything, his wife, his friends, his relationship with his daughter for the good of his country. There is a sense of honor and nobility in that. Furthermore, the fact that he has to choose between a life and his country makes him all the more conflicted and heroic. Superman on the other hand, had his cake and ate it to. The movie implies he was in some form of relationship with Lois, people loved him, etc. But he gave up his girl and his son but not for a heroic reason...he did it out of pure selfishness. Because he wanted to see if a planet that was destroyed is still there? Sure, it ****ed up his life, but he brought it on himself. Why should we as an auidence care if he has to deal with the consequences of his selfish actions?

[Excel]

flawed heros are getting old; lok at spidey y3 and every othjer comic book film aside batman. what puts butts in the seats isnt flawed heros ists superhuman fights!

if the trailer showed matrix-sized fights between supey n some hoe and showed some romance instead of *****ing the film woulda done way more money. but they didnt so it didnt.

from a marketing and box office perspective; its a pity they didnt make j abrams script.

[mjbull23]

Excuse me while I touch this off, but.. is a "flawed" superman such a bad thing? Isn't this why he spends his formative years in the Fortress gleaming Wisdom from his father, and the counsel of the Kryptonian Elders? Because they knew that he would need guidance? Wasn't it established that Superman could and would make mistakes?

He made them in STM, when he chose to keep a promise to Miss Tessmacher instead of flying directly to California to intervene Lois' death..only to turn back time. Wasn't he specifically instructed not to interfere? Didn't he interfere regardless?

Howabout in Superman II? He gives up his powers to become mortal... yes, that is the first obvious mistake. Howabout his tactical miscalculation thinking that he could somehow outmaneuver and subdue three equally powered Kryptonians within Metropolis city limits... (shouldn't the correct strategic maneuver have been to fly off directly to a remote location and engage them there?)..

Superman 4..thinking he can impose his will and save the human race from itself?....

And yet now in Returns, when he returns to earth, and out of curiosity he chooses to drop in and see how the love of his life is doing with her new family...some of these "fans" bash him for being a *stalker**.... now all of a sudden he's flawed? He's somehow out of character? I think Superman has always made questionable decisions, and has always had character flaws. Its OK. I like him better that way. Makes him more interesting. Remember, he grew up as a human, he learned all about Jealousy. He learned about longing for acceptance as a child. He's not supposed to be perfect in every action and thought.

[Grinder]

Superhuman fights are a MUST! It's SUPERMAN dammit!

I still don't get why they rejected JJ Abrams ideas only for money reasons if other movies proved to show big aerial fights and great visuals with less or equal money!? :huh: :o

Also, going by their track record, WB are just the wrong studio to make a DC hero movie, period! No wonder the other DC heroes get no movies when Bats and Supes are still finding their right course on the big screen. Granted "Batman Begins" is a great movie, but did they really need 4 trials to get there? Superman already had 4 silly kiddy films, now another one was added. That's just embarrassing! There's so many talent out there that dreams to get their hands on such a project and WB goes with the one who has the least idea of the character? :whatever:

WB! YOU SUCK!

[The Overlord]

I know how Superman is traditionally perceived, but I thank God SR wasn't that kiddy, no matter the BO.

Wasn't that kiddie?! SR Lex was a slightly more threatening version of Super Friends Lex Luthor! They both were cartoony villains that created really stupid schemes that would have destroyed the world and had no personality beyond being evil.

[Showtime]

I think Spacey did very well with the character that was written for him. I thought Lex was miles ahead of Hackman.

[merced]

Superhuman fights are a MUST! It's SUPERMAN dammit!

I still don't get why they rejected JJ Abrams ideas only for money reasons if other movies proved to show big aerial fights and great visuals with less or equal money!? :huh: :o

Also, going by their track record, WB are just the wrong studio to make a DC hero movie, period! No wonder the other DC heroes get no movies when Bats and Supes are still finding their right course on the big screen. Granted "Batman Begins" is a great movie, but did they really need 4 trials to get there? Superman already had 4 silly kiddy films, now another one was added. That's just embarrassing! There's so many talent out there that dreams to get their hands on such a project and WB goes with the one who has the least idea of the character? :whatever:


WB! YOU SUCK!


The JJ script was ripped apart at first by Harry Knowles. The revision was said to bet a lot better. I don't know. It sounds like it might have been a more exciting movie but there was weird stuff in the original. I don't know about later drafts. WB will get the Singer script late in the year. They probably will go over it with a fine tooth comb and weigh the money they can spend on it. Harris and Dougherty need to make it great. WB probably won't commit money unless it blows them away.

[El Payaso]

Wasn't that kiddie?! SR Lex was a slightly more threatening version of Super Friends Lex Luthor! They both were cartoony villains that created really stupid schemes that would have destroyed the world and had no personality beyond being evil.

I agree woith Spacey's Lex. It was built after Gene Hackman's Lex and that worked for a 70's blockbuster. I didn't like it too much.

[Showtime]

I thought Spacey did the best he could with what he was given, I felt that his Lex was much more sadistic than Hackman's.

[Matt]

I thought Spacey did the best he could with what he was given, I felt that his Lex was much more sadistic than Hackman's.

I wouldn't say that. Consider the times. Spacey's Lex may have been more outwardly cruel, but in the 70s, killing a law enforcement agent, especially an FBI agent as Lex did was a big deal. For his time, Hackman's Lex was fairly evil. I think the problem with Spacey's Lex is...while he may be more outwardly evil, he is essentially the same character he was in the 70s...and that really doesn't work anymore. I mean, not even James Bond would fight a villian with such a goofy scheme anymore.

[The Overlord]

I agree woith Spacey's Lex. It was built after Gene Hackman's Lex and that worked for a 70's blockbuster. I didn't like it too much.


SM-I was made in 78, before Post crisis Lex existed, SR was made in 2006 20 years after Post crisis Lex was created, Hackman Lex was fine for his time, but has become completely dated now. If the movie makers were smart they would have used an updated version of Lex, not recyled the one from 78. A weak villain sucks the engry right out of a story and sR had a weak villain.

I think Spacey did very well with the character that was written for him. I thought Lex was miles ahead of Hackman.

And Clancy Brown blows both of those two out of the water. Hackman Lex was a good villain for his time, but he doesn't hold up in modern times. SR Lex a slightly more menacing version of the same villain and thus he appears outdated and lame. Hackman Lex was better because he fit in his time, unlike SR Lex.

[buggs0268]

Fire Singer and bring in someone like Donner who has respect for the character, and will bust his ass to bring the character faithfully to the screen.

[buggs0268]

I thought Spacey did the best he could with what he was given, I felt that his Lex was much more sadistic than Hackman's.
in the original draft for Superman 1, especially Puzo's, if you look for an interview with Donner, he says that Lex was viscious. It was on par with what was in the Godfather. this first thing Donner said is (paraphrasing) "We have to really tame Lex down. parents will be bringing their kids to this, and dropping their kids off on Saturday Matinees (Parent's could do that in the 70's and 80's) and we need to make him more kid friendly." That is why Lex and crew was written the way he was.

[buggs0268]

That's part of the problem.

Kids didn't like the movie, and adults did. I showed my adult sister it and she loved it, but Superman ,more than any other hero, is seen as a kid's hero.
It does worry me about the sequel whether people kids will come out in full force after SR set a tone that wasn't kiddy.
many adults hated it.

[buggs0268]

Casablanca is a chic flick for that matter and no one flies there so big meh.
It was a chick flick that did not connect with chicks.

[BareKnucklez]

in the original draft for Superman 1, especially Puzo's, if you look for an interview with Donner, he says that Lex was viscious. It was on par with what was in the Godfather. this first thing Donner said is (paraphrasing) "We have to really tame Lex down. parents will be bringing their kids to this, and dropping their kids off on Saturday Matinees (Parent's could do that in the 70's and 80's) and we need to make him more kid friendly." That is why Lex and crew was written the way he was.

That, and because the guys writing the script SUCK!

Giving him the worst Villain scheme EVER in a Super hero movie!!!!

[buggs0268]

That, and because the guys writing the script SUCK!

Giving him the worst Villain scheme EVER in a Super hero movie!!!!
Are you talking the writers of Superman the movie, or SR writers? SR write's sucked. Superman the moives writter's wanted to have a nuclear missle hitting and causing an earthquake in California. They wanted a huge ending. Sad that a 30 year old movie had such a huge final then a current one.

[Showtime]

in the original draft for Superman 1, especially Puzo's, if you look for an interview with Donner, he says that Lex was viscious. It was on par with what was in the Godfather. this first thing Donner said is (paraphrasing) "We have to really tame Lex down. parents will be bringing their kids to this, and dropping their kids off on Saturday Matinees (Parent's could do that in the 70's and 80's) and we need to make him more kid friendly." That is why Lex and crew was written the way he was.

I know the whole interview, but it doesn't matter. The Lex on screen in Returns was more sadisitc than the Lex in STM. Superman Returns was supposed to have Superman lifting a chain of train cars as a flood tears through Metropolis, that didn't happen, so we can't make fun of Superman for only lifting things.

[Angeloz]

That, and because the guys writing the script SUCK!

Giving him the worst Villain scheme EVER in a Super hero movie!!!!

Yes because in "Spider-Man" having the villain try to recruit Spidey just 'cos he had superpowers was a good idea. Then there's "Spider-Man 2" with I must recreate a failed experiment that could blow up the city scheme. In "Batman Begins" must use a weapon that can vaporise water near humans though it magically doesn't affect them when it should. I could go on but won't. By the way I like those films I mentioned though not as much as Superman nor "Superman Returns". I guess I have different standards to comic films in that I don't expect the villains to have mundane schemes that are completely logical or feasable in the real world. Because it's a comic book film.

Angeloz

[The Kid]

hmmm. I agree

Wow, thanks. Great minds think alike.

[Eros]

I know the whole interview, but it doesn't matter. The Lex on screen in Returns was more sadisitc than the Lex in STM. Superman Returns was supposed to have Superman lifting a chain of train cars as a flood tears through Metropolis, that didn't happen, so we can't make fun of Superman for only lifting things.


that was my problem with returns Lex, and Lex from the old movies, his purpose for being who he is never alluded to. He just came off as a generic evil villian most of the time, with to many campy moments. I would say returns Lex is the worst version of the character, the smallvile version of the chaarcter is vastly superior.

[superbaby]

Fire Singer and bring in someone like Donner who has respect for the character, and will bust his ass to bring the character faithfully to the screen.
yap. fire him. he just isn't right.

[Pickle-El]

Fire Singer and bring in someone like Donner who has respect for the character, and will bust his ass to bring the character faithfully to the screen.

If this isn't the most ironic thing ever posted on a Superman message board....

[dude love]

I asked my best mates step son (8) what he thought of Superman Returns.
He didn't like it (I guess he found the action boring). He did however like Batman Begins, X-Men, Spider-man and Fantastic Four.

Personally I thought it was great

My three year old cousin likes it, I guess. The pane scene and the NKI climax is one of the only ways I can get him to sit still. Shrek is the only other one I can think of right now.

[El Payaso]

It was a chick flick that did not connect with chicks.

Which movie are you talking about?
Casablanca? Big deal, it's still great.
SR? Big deal, it's never been a chic flick to start with.

Are you talking the writers of Superman the movie, or SR writers? SR write's sucked. Superman the moives writter's wanted to have a nuclear missle hitting and causing an earthquake in California. They wanted a huge ending. Sad that a 30 year old movie had such a huge final then a current one.

Didn't we have an earthquake in SR too? And the big finale in STM was an animation of Superman surrounding the Earth; not the biggest rollercoaster-like action sequence for a finale ever created. But then again, considering Lois was dead and Supes was trying to save her gives you the emotional side more than the expensive effects one. Just like in SR.

[Showtime]

that was my problem with returns Lex, and Lex from the old movies, his purpose for being who he is never alluded to. He just came off as a generic evil villian most of the time, with to many campy moments. I would say returns Lex is the worst version of the character, the smallvile version of the chaarcter is vastly superior.

Well the reason he is sadistic in Returns is because he blames Superman for his 5 year jail term and is attempting to enact revenge. In regards to the real estate scheme, money and land I guess, although that is played out.

[Angeloz]

He also has access to the most advanced technology on the planet as he explained to Kitty about the most powerful civilisations.

Angeloz

[Showtime]

I didn't think Lex was portrayed that badly through dialogue and mannerisms, I think his scheme should have been amped up of course.

[The Overlord]

He also has access to the most advanced technology on the planet as he explained to Kitty about the most powerful civilisations.

Angeloz


And that's the best scheme he could come with?! He could have sold the tech and become a billionaire or made a warship to take over the world and the best he could make up with a bad real estate scam. This version of Lex is retarded.

[Angeloz]

He could make weapons later? 'Cos he implied he would. I guess destroying North America is nothing nor the damage to the other 3 continents.

Angeloz

[Matt]

He could make weapons later? 'Cos he implied he would. I guess destroying North America is nothing nor the damage to the other 3 continents.

Angeloz

But the plan doesn't make sense. What good is having land if you wipe out your biggest market and in effect destroy the world's economy? He said at numerous points that he wanted to sell the land to the highest bidder, but with what? If he wipes out America he wipes out the economy. And isn't it a bit naive to think people will buy land on a rock that looks like it will be uninhabitable for the next 50 thousand years from the guy who destroyed America?

[Angeloz]

But the plan doesn't make sense. What good is having land if you wipe out your biggest market and in effect destroy the world's economy? He said at numerous points that he wanted to sell the land to the highest bidder, but with what? If he wipes out America he wipes out the economy. And isn't it a bit naive to think people will buy land on a rock that looks like it will be uninhabitable for the next 50 thousand years from the guy who destroyed America?

'Cos he's a villain and wanted revenge. It's a comic book film. The villains usually threaten the U.S. whether it makes sense in real life or not. Usually not.

Angeloz

[Matt]

'Cos he's a villain and wanted revenge. It's a comic book film. The villains usually threaten the U.S. whether it makes sense in real life or not. Usually not.

Angeloz

:whatever: That is pretty weak. It is a plot hole. Plain and simple. For it to work, we need to understand the villian's motives. We can assume its revenge but the film never said he wanted revenge (on anyone but Superman). Therefore we can only go based on what Lex said (He wanted to make money) and it isn't exactly an intelligent way to make cash.

[Angeloz]

:whatever: That is pretty weak. It is a plot hole. Plain and simple. For it to work, we need to understand the villian's motives. We can assume its revenge but the film never said he wanted revenge (on anyone but Superman). Therefore we can only go based on what Lex said (He wanted to make money) and it isn't exactly an intelligent way to make cash.

We do? Then explain to me the motives of the Green Goblin to recruit Spider-Man and how it made sense? As well as Dock Ock and redoing a failed experiment that could destroy New York? And how is destroying a large segment of the population a good idea in "X-Men 2"? I doubt it'd be helpful to the economy as there'd be less consumers not to mention tax payers to fund those secret world destroying schemes.

Angeloz

[Matt]

We do? Then explain to me the motives of the Green Goblin to recruit Spider-Man and how it made sense? As well as Dock Ock and redoing a failed experiment that could destroy New York? And how is destroying a large segment of the population a good idea in "X-Men 2"? I doubt it'd be helpful to the economy as there'd be less consumers not to mention tax payers to fund those secret world destroying schemes.

Angeloz

You're not considering the motivations of each character.

Norman Osborne - Aside from the fact that he was insane from the Goblin formula, it was made very clear throughout the movie that he saw Peter as the son he wanted Harry to be.

Doctor Octopus - His ego was well established early in the movie, he did not believe his experiment could have failed. Therefore he was doing it again to prove he was right

X-2 - Are you talking about Magneto's plot? He could care less about the economy. He cared about wiping out the human race and vice versa with Stryker.

Lex on the otherhand was established to be doing his plot to make money. That is why it falls through.

[buggs0268]

'Cos he's a villain and wanted revenge. It's a comic book film. The villains usually threaten the U.S. whether it makes sense in real life or not. Usually not.

Angeloz
He wanted revenge and then to sell land to the very people he wiped out. And get rich on destroyed currency. It was a stupid plan.

[The Overlord]

He could make weapons later? 'Cos he implied he would. I guess destroying North America is nothing nor the damage to the other 3 continents.

Angeloz

Why not make the weapons right away and take over the world? That makes way more sense than what we got. Lex's plan was crap, it was only plot induced stupidity that the US military didn't try to carpet bomb nK to try and stop it, while Lex was in a cave smoking a cigar.

[Metropolis_Man]

I didn't like the use of "land" again for Luthors plot to take over. It's time for something a little more fresh. Returns did have the potential to make Superman huge again, but certain aspects of the film possibly shut some viewers off. I noticed today in watching Returns that there are some true iconic images from the Superman mythos; Action Comics #1 reference, him catching the globe, hovering in space. I think most people wanted Superman to be in some sort of physical battle as opposed to lifting things and not even getting much dialouge with Luthor.

I still enjoy Returns very much though, and I just want them to improve on some of the things that missed the mark. A little more action with a villain he can truely have fist to fist combat with. Keep the story fresh as well, and don't rely TOO much on the action, a good story along with fantastic action is the key.

[MaskedManJRK]

I think we need both some action and "badass" moments from Supes in order for him to be "popular" and "cool" in todays market.

I mean, here we have Superman Returns, the first Superman movie in decades, during the age of CGI, where with enough money and time, one could create the most epic action sequences for the character. But what do we get? Superman versus a big f**king rock.

As for badass moments, they should show the audience that he isn't just an easy-going boy-scout. Superman, because of how he was raised, thinks and feels just like a human being. He can get angry, and when he does, he brings out the strength of a god. He should be a shining symbol of hope, but hope that can fight.

So, hopefully, we'll have Superman up against a huge enemy that he can get in a physical fight with, and not another big f**king rock from one of Luthor's retarded schemes.

[Steelsheen]

But the plan doesn't make sense. What good is having land if you wipe out your biggest market and in effect destroy the world's economy? He said at numerous points that he wanted to sell the land to the highest bidder, but with what? If he wipes out America he wipes out the economy. And isn't it a bit naive to think people will buy land on a rock that looks like it will be uninhabitable for the next 50 thousand years from the guy who destroyed America?

He wanted revenge and then to sell land to the very people he wiped out. And get rich on destroyed currency. It was a stupid plan.

the Chinese could buy into it. also them folks at the Middle East :o

you are aware that America isnt the only country in the world right? ;)

anyway, Lex wants to be king of the world, so he goes and makes his own continent (he's a megalomaniac, everybody knows that). although i think the script may be flawed, because of the consequences of his actions (if the news gets out that he's responsible for it). however if North America will sink underwater you would most definitely have survivors, they may have nothing to pay for it, but Lex would sure have free labor. also dont under estimate Human nature, greed is a powerful ally. even if all Lex has are those crystals he can play up to the imagination of TPTB about advanced ailen technology that only he can provide, and of course is willing to share-- at a price. in comes the big money part

[Super Kal]

don't make him so serious this time around... I think that would help out a lot.

[C. Lee]

the Chinese could buy into it. also them folks at the Middle East :o

you are aware that America isnt the only country in the world right? ;)

anyway, Lex wants to be king of the world, so he goes and makes his own continent (he's a megalomaniac, everybody knows that). although i think the script may be flawed, because of the consequences of his actions (if the news gets out that he's responsible for it). however if North America will sink underwater you would most definitely have survivors, they may have nothing to pay for it, but Lex would sure have free labor. also dont under estimate Human nature, greed is a powerful ally. even if all Lex has are those crystals he can play up to the imagination of TPTB about advanced ailen technology that only he can provide, and of course is willing to share-- at a price. in comes the big money part

Agreed.

What few survivors were left on North America would become slave labor on Lex's Continenant. Most of Eastern Europe would also be destroyed.....so the people with money would be from Asia and the Middle East. Lex planned on using the crystal to get Kryptonian technology too. His main mistake was in underestimating the amount of time it would take for the conversion to occurr.

Basicly you can say that Lex is insane in one way or the other. He has no regret or feeling of remorse for attempting to kill billions of people....he has a combination God Envy/God Complex going on simultaniously......that makes for a dangerous unstable person.

[The Overlord]

the Chinese could buy into it. also them folks at the Middle East :o

you are aware that America isnt the only country in the world right? ;)

anyway, Lex wants to be king of the world, so he goes and makes his own continent (he's a megalomaniac, everybody knows that). although i think the script may be flawed, because of the consequences of his actions (if the news gets out that he's responsible for it). however if North America will sink underwater you would most definitely have survivors, they may have nothing to pay for it, but Lex would sure have free labor. also dont under estimate Human nature, greed is a powerful ally. even if all Lex has are those crystals he can play up to the imagination of TPTB about advanced ailen technology that only he can provide, and of course is willing to share-- at a price. in comes the big money part

Lex killed millions of people for no good reason, you don't the Chinese wouldn't try to kill him and just take his land, rather than doing business with him, just in case he decides to destroy China or something? Also destorying the uS would have ruined the world economy, so no one would be in a position to buy anything.

Plus using the suviours as slave labour would have come back to haunt him, they would hate Lex with all their being, what is to stop them from killing Lex in his sleep? This plan was just stupid, plain and simple.

[C. Lee]

Lex killed millions of people for no good reason, you don't the C|hninese wouldn't try to kill him and just take his land, rather than doing business with him, just in case he decides to destroy China or something? Plus using the suviours as slave labour would have come back to haunt him, they would hate Lex with all their being, what is to stop them from killing Lex in his sleep?

Lex expected to get Kryptonian technology from the remaining crystals...thus, having alien weaponry to fight off anyone that came after him (he just took his own sweet time about accessing it)......cause, you know, he's nurtz...:hyper:

[Steelsheen]

Lex killed millions of people for no good reason, you don't the Chinese wouldn't try to kill him and just take his land, rather than doing business with him, just in case he decides to destroy China or something? Also destorying the uS would have ruined the world economy, so no one would be in a position to buy anything.

Plus using the suviours as slave labour would have come back to haunt him, they would hate Lex with all their being, what is to stop them from killing Lex in his sleep? This plan was just stupid, plain and simple.

yes the Chinese could kill him and steal the land, but they wouldnt have a clue what to do with it, since Lex has all the know how on Kryptonian stuff. it would be more profitable to have him live and do biz with him and make him an ally, at least long enough until their own scientists understand the Kryptonian technology well enough to do away with Lex. and what are the chances of Lex letting that happen?

there's always a possibility of an uprising from forced labour, but by the time that they could get organized enough to cause trouble, Lex would at least have some basic knowledge on how to weaponize Kryptonian tech, which at its most basic form is still lightyears ahead of any Human technology. he would be unbeatable.

Basicly you can say that Lex is insane in one way or the other. He has no regret or feeling of remorse for attempting to kill billions of people....he has a combination God Envy/God Complex going on simultaniously......that makes for a dangerous unstable person.
exactly, that i think is what makes Lex as dangerous, if not more so, than the Joker. he strives to make himself unto a God, the scary thing about him is that he has the intelligence and the resourcefulness to make it happen

[buggs0268]

the Chinese could buy into it. also them folks at the Middle East :o

you are aware that America isnt the only country in the world right? ;)

anyway, Lex wants to be king of the world, so he goes and makes his own continent (he's a megalomaniac, everybody knows that). although i think the script may be flawed, because of the consequences of his actions (if the news gets out that he's responsible for it). however if North America will sink underwater you would most definitely have survivors, they may have nothing to pay for it, but Lex would sure have free labor. also dont under estimate Human nature, greed is a powerful ally. even if all Lex has are those crystals he can play up to the imagination of TPTB about advanced ailen technology that only he can provide, and of course is willing to share-- at a price. in comes the big money part
And you do realize that he was expecting those very same people whose land he destoryed to buy into his grown land. That means Americans, Canadian's, Mexican's and part of the European's. Those are the currencies I was talking about would be devalued, and not just American's. If I had, I would have said "American money would not have been any good". Oh, also how was he supposed to defend all of those pissed off people who wants to kick his a$$ because he just destroyed their homes, lands and very ways of life.

[buggs0268]

Lex killed millions of people for no good reason, you don't the Chinese wouldn't try to kill him and just take his land, rather than doing business with him, just in case he decides to destroy China or something? Also destorying the uS would have ruined the world economy, so no one would be in a position to buy anything.

Plus using the suviours as slave labour would have come back to haunt him, they would hate Lex with all their being, what is to stop them from killing Lex in his sleep? This plan was just stupid, plain and simple.
I was just about to say this.

[mjbull23]

Speaking of weaponized Kryptonian Technology... does anyone else feel as I do, that Singer kind of missed the boat on this one. Wouldn't it have been nice to at least show us some of that technology after Luthor has acquired it.

[C. Lee]

Speaking of weaponized Kryptonian Technology... does anyone else feel as I do, that Singer kind of missed the boat on this one. Wouldn't it have been nice to at least show us some of that technology after Luthor has acquired it.

Like I said....Lex miscalculated....he should have tried to access the weaponry before the land making....but as I also said....Lex is NURTZ.

[The Overlord]

Lex expected to get Kryptonian technology from the remaining crystals...thus, having alien weaponry to fight off anyone that came after him (he just took his own sweet time about accessing it)......cause, you know, he's nurtz...:hyper:

No he is stupid, if he was nuts he would have made the weapons right away and blasted stuff at random, but since he is a moron instead, he sat around and just waited for a counter attack to happen. Seriously if profit was Lex's motive this the worst plan he could have come up with. Joker in the 89 flim seemed geniuely insane and seemed more interested in killing people than making a profit. You never get that sense with Lex, you feel he is stupid instead. Besides Lex is supposed to be a Lawful Evil villain, not a Choatic Evil character. He should have used this tech to corrupt society, not destroy it. The whole thing made him a lame villain.

yes the Chinese could kill him and steal the land, but they wouldnt have a clue what to do with it, since Lex has all the know how on Kryptonian stuff. it would be more profitable to have him live and do biz with him and make him an ally, at least long enough until their own scientists understand the Kryptonian technology well enough to do away with Lex. and what are the chances of Lex letting that happen?

there's always a possibility of an uprising from forced labour, but by the time that they could get organized enough to cause trouble, Lex would at least have some basic knowledge on how to weaponize Kryptonian tech, which at its most basic form is still lightyears ahead of any Human technology. he would be unbeatable.

How you do know that? We never see the tech in action, so how are supposed to judge its effectivness? Also if the Chinese didn't decide to do a direct attack? What if they sent assassins to NK, kidnap Lex in his sleep and torture the info they want out of him, then kill him? How do you this tech would have pervented the Chinese from doing that? You don't, because this tech was a vague, bad plot point. Besides how is anyone supposed to buy anything from lex after he ruined the world economy, after the destruction of the uS, every world currency would go into free fall. There are so many holes in this scheme.


exactly, that i think is what makes Lex as dangerous, if not more so, than the Joker. he strives to make himself unto a God, the scary thing about him is that he has the intelligence and the resourcefulness to make it happen

No, if Lex had actually made those weapons, he would have been a god, sitting around in cave, smoking a cigar, not making those weapons, would have made him a dead duck because a military counter attack, if Superman hadn't foiled him first.

[ThanosOfTitans]

The Lex in Superman Returns is supposed to have the intelligence and resourcefulness to achieve God like status, yet the best scheme he can muster to amass wealth is to marry an old bag of bones? Yeah, that's overwhelmingly more savvy and intelligent than establishing major professional and financial ties with corporate, scientific and political leaders to support a mega corporation that develops advanced defense technologies.

[El Payaso]

The Lex in Superman Returns is supposed to have the intelligence and resourcefulness to achieve God like status, yet the best scheme he can muster to amass wealth is to marry an old bag of bones? Yeah, that's overwhelmingly more savvy and intelligent than establishing major professional and financial ties with corporate, scientific and political leaders to support a mega corporation that develops advanced defense technologies.

I think if he's starting from scratch, the fastest way is the old lady. Faster than having to win the trust of so many wealthy people with his resumee.

[Showtime]

I didn't mind him swindling the old lady, it didn't play that much into the story except at the beginning.

[ThanosOfTitans]

I think if he's starting from scratch, the fastest way is the old lady. Faster than having to win the trust of so many wealthy people with his resumee.

I can see your point. But I'm going to have a serious gripe if the sequel features Lex, but doesn't include 1) Lex establishing influential relationships in the scientific, political and/or corporate community and 2) the smallest hint of Lexcorp (even a mention of the word would be satisfying)

[El Payaso]

Well, Corp Lex is so much better than campy Lex. Campy Lex had its time and worked in it. But Corp Lex... no question here. Where do I sign?

[Showtime]

With blood on parchment.

[Eros]

The Lex in Superman Returns is supposed to have the intelligence and resourcefulness to achieve God like status, yet the best scheme he can muster to amass wealth is to marry an old bag of bones? Yeah, that's overwhelmingly more savvy and intelligent than establishing major professional and financial ties with corporate, scientific and political leaders to support a mega corporation that develops advanced defense technologies.

well to be fair, Lex just spent years in prison for attempted Genocide, it would of been hard to start a billion dollar world wide corporation.

[Matt]

the Chinese could buy into it. also them folks at the Middle East :o

you are aware that America isnt the only country in the world right? ;)


The economies you speak of are still dependant on the dollar and the United States economy. If the US economy sinks, so does the world economy. China, most third world countries, Europe...they all lose their biggest source of exporting income. Millions lose their jobs as a result. Their economies crash in a way that makes the Great Depression look like a stock market boom. You can try to justify plot holes all you want, but you aren't succeeding.

[Armand Z Trip]

I don't think this movie made Superman any less of an icon in regards to pop culture. Superman was everywhere, and because of Returns Superman is anywhere and everywhere. It's still cool to display the Superman logo on shirts or other areas, the movie didn't diminsh this, it only enhanced this. So despite the only solid performance of the movie, not great. Superman is still an icon.

Is this logo on a shirt, or would you say other areas?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/49/137431627_f8ad74dc8c.jpg?v=0

Sorry. Totally agree with the above statement.

[Showtime]

Wowzers.

[The Overlord]

I think if he's starting from scratch, the fastest way is the old lady. Faster than having to win the trust of so many wealthy people with his resumee.

Yes, but it is so crass, it seems like something that should be beneath Luthor. Lex should have more self respect than that. Any common con man could swindle old ladies out of their money, but creating a corporation, that takes true intelligence. Lex should be anything but common.

well to be fair, Lex just spent years in prison for attempted Genocide, it would of been hard to start a billion dollar world wide corporation.

If he offer to provide the world with tech that could cure cancer, he may been forgiven for his past sins. That would have been more clever than the scheme we got in SR.

[ThanosOfTitans]

Yes, but it is so crass, it seems like something that should be beneath Luthor. Lex should have more self respect than that. Any common con man could swindle old ladies out of their money, but creating a corporation, that takes true intelligence. Lex should be anything but common.

yes, i can see your point as well. very good point too. lex is an arrogant and prideful man. such acts do seem beneath the traditional comic book lex, but movie-verse lex is campy and deviates a bit from comic-verse lex, so sleeping with old ladies is probably right on par with his goals, but now that he has the money...it's time for his standards to rise and establish the greatness that is lexcorp. the good thing about sr's lex is that he wasn't absurdly campy and his character can still be salvaged! oh yes, there is hope.

[Angeloz]

What has Lex got to do with Superman being an icon?

Angeloz

[ThanosOfTitans]

What has Lex got to do with Superman being an icon?

Angeloz

iconic superheroes usually have iconic villains. batman has the joker. the x-men have magneto. the fantastic four have doom. the savage dragon had overlord. spiderman had doctor octopus (though some fans would prefer carnage or venom). skywalker had vader. he-man has skeletor. the teenage mutant ninja turtles have shredder and crane (if you old school) i think you get the point. great heroes and great villains go hand and hand. especially considering lex tends to pop up in every superman movie....i think his character deserves a bit more attention. i could go on and on...


but aside from that, is this the first topic you've posted in where the topic has deviated a bit from the original? just a little curious

[Angeloz]

No I just thought I'd bring it up as a question. 'Cos I can like deviations. ;) Though I must admit I'm not that attatched to Lexcorp especially in a film. It's more for a serial storyline where he has to hide his evil side so as not get arrested all the time. I don't mind open and honest criminality in Lex. That said I don't object to Lexcorp in serial form either. I'm flexible on the issue and not one way or nothing about it. Oh well.

Angeloz

[ThanosOfTitans]

i can understand that. i just think comic-verse lex's corporate, political and scientific influence is the difference between common criminal and debonair elite villain. i mean, lex doesn't really have any superhuman powers....but there are other forms of power. < = ) and i think it's smart that lex can be behind all of these fiendishly evil plots...and the public still loves him and embraces him.

[Angeloz]

So more reasons to think the public stupid 'cos there's a pair of glasses (at least he's not well known though) and a villain that is thought of as good? Man people on that world. ;) :D

Angeloz

[ThanosOfTitans]

So more reasons to think the public stupid 'cos there's a pair of glasses (at least he's not well known though) and a villain that is thought of as good? Man people on that world. ;) :D

Angeloz

i've never thought people were stupid for not recognizing clark's disguise. it's just something most comicbook readers have accepted. a pair of glasses is enough to disguise his identity. the superman franchise has lasted quite sometime...i think it's a little late to gripe about the glasses.

and about the second part, that happens in real life everyday. there are many politicians and corporate leaders in good favor with the public who are behind fiendishly evil plots to serve their own self interest. are the people who get screwed stupid? no, because they trust that these "leaders" are looking out for their best interest, but that's what makes them evil. they take advantage of that trust and manipulate it to serve their own needs.

now if you want to talk about the people who voted bush into office a second term...that's something totally different. lol

[Angeloz]

Don't worry I was just teasing about the glasses. Are there really people that believe in politicians and businessmen? 'Cos that's a shocking thing in the modern world.

Angeloz

[ThanosOfTitans]

Don't worry I was just teasing about the glasses. Are there really people that believe in politicians and businessmen? 'Cos that's a shocking thing in the modern world.

Angeloz

well, a lot of people embraced bush when he was spreading his "terrorism" propaganda concerning this "war on terrorism". he played on the nation's fears and falsified information to make us feel like we needed to be protected from a threat that didn't exist. and the nation trusted bush and his administration to look out for our best interest...he even made proclamations insisting that we would be doing God's work.....and now years later...one has to wonder.... was it ever really about terrorism? or an attempt to get in and influence the control of the oil available there?

this is the stuff real villains are made of. :yay:

[Angeloz]

I'm not arguing there about that.

Angeloz

[The Overlord]

No I just thought I'd bring it up as a question. 'Cos I can like deviations. ;) Though I must admit I'm not that attatched to Lexcorp especially in a film. It's more for a serial storyline where he has to hide his evil side so as not get arrested all the time. I don't mind open and honest criminality in Lex. That said I don't object to Lexcorp in serial form either. I'm flexible on the issue and not one way or nothing about it. Oh well.

Angeloz

Pre Crisis Lex is just another mad scientist or in the case of the movies a common con man. There wasn't a whole lot that seperates him from every other mad scientist/con man. However Post crisis Lex is truely Superman's opposite, while Superman represents the best of America: bravery, compansion, kindness, etc, Lex represents the worst aspects of America: greed, arrogance, ruthlessness. What does pre crisis lex represent, anger over male pattern baldness and a obession with real estate?

Plus Post Crisis Lex is a Lawful Evil character a perfect counter to a lawful good Character like Superman. Unlike Pre crisis Lex, where Superman can smash his evil device and send him to prison, Superman has to fight Lex on a mental level, he can't fight him with his fists. Seriously since movie Lex can't create good schemes, what possible role could he play in any sequel?

[The Kid]

Is this logo on a shirt, or would you say other areas?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/49/137431627_f8ad74dc8c.jpg?v=0

Sorry. Totally agree with the above statement.

:yay: :yay: :yay: :yay: :yay:

[El Payaso]

Yes, but it is so crass, it seems like something that should be beneath Luthor. Lex should have more self respect than that. Any common con man could swindle old ladies out of their money, but creating a corporation, that takes true intelligence. Lex should be anything but common.

I think the problem of Lex wasn't self respect or intelligence (or the lack of those) but the fact he's quite famous for being a massive killer. No matter how 'intelligent' you could be, if your fame's based on how insane and dangerous you are, few business men would like to get their money involved with you. Let's not even mention to create a corporation when everybody knows you're an insane killer.

It was more about Lex's impossibility of making lots of money in short time, which he achieved with Gertrude. If for recovering his fortune, and maybe more in record time, Lex was pretty intelligent about getting involved with the old lady.

[Angeloz]

Pre Crisis Lex is just another mad scientist or in the case of the movies a common con man. There wasn't a whole lot that seperates him from every other mad scientist/con man. However Post crisis Lex is truely Superman's opposite, while Superman represents the best of America: bravery, compansion, kindness, etc, Lex represents the worst aspects of America: greed, arrogance, ruthlessness. What does pre crisis lex represent, anger over male pattern baldness and a obession with real estate?

Plus Post Crisis Lex is a Lawful Evil character a perfect counter to a lawful good Character like Superman. Unlike Pre crisis Lex, where Superman can smash his evil device and send him to prison, Superman has to fight Lex on a mental level, he can't fight him with his fists. Seriously since movie Lex can't create good schemes, what possible role could he play in any sequel?

The problem with Lex getting away with it constantly needs a serial for that to be effective. With films you might get 2 or 3 of them. That's my point - it's the wrong format. It's been awhile but I believe the animated series had both the business and later in the "JLU" criminal Lex. Either were good.

Angeloz

[Angeloz]

I think the problem of Lex wasn't self respect or intelligence (or the lack of those) but the fact he's quite famous for being a massive killer. No matter how 'intelligent' you could be, if your fame's based on how insane and dangerous you are, few business men would like to get their money involved with you. Let's not even mention to create a corporation when everybody knows you're an insane killer.

Maybe he could get support from bald men. And become the bald mans terrorist. ;) :D

Angeloz

[El Payaso]

Maybe he could get support from bald men. And become the bald mans terrorist. ;) :D

Angeloz

lol

International Bald Men Club will loan Lex money to stand for bald men's dignity in the Market.

"Yes,"! said the Chair man, "they call us killers or genocides because we have no hair. That's a mentality we're gonna change in this country."

[DrMylesOBoogie]

i've been thinking if the popularity of Smallville is affecting how Superman performs at the movies. i'm thinking if the general public as reached a saturation point with all things Superman related it would make sense that they would look for something new on the big screen since they already get a regular doze of it from TV.

its just a thought.Smallville's popularity wouldnt have mattered had Returns actually been really good. Fact is they got a movie with less action then some episodes of Smallville.

They fu**ed up every aspect that people love about Superman in the movie. The messed up the romance between Lois/Clark/Superman, it didnt offer anything new or groundbreaking and it wasnt very exciting.

[Dr. Fate]

Smallville's popularity wouldnt have mattered had Returns actually been really good. Fact is they got a movie with less action then some episodes of Smallville.

They fu**ed up every aspect that people love about Superman in the movie. The messed up the romance between Lois/Clark/Superman, it didnt offer anything new or groundbreaking and it wasnt very exciting.
Yup.

[Steelsheen]

boy, some of you guys have a real hang up on not seeing Corporate Lex arent you? ;)

as i've already mentioned, and what C.Lee has already covered, the script is flawed, the writers used Donner Lex as a backstory while maintaining the God Complex that Lex is noted for as a criminal scientist AND a corporate shark. with better writing they could still have Lex and his stolen Kryptonian technology come into play WITHOUT earning the hate of the world (at least not yet). the New Krypton land idea can still work, but not in the way that it was presented in the movie. the writers took too many shortcuts. now before you guys start ranting about how creating a new continent is stupid, remember that New Krypton NEEDED to be established for use in the sequel (if we're still gonna get it).


What has Lex got to do with Superman being an icon?
Angeloz

sorry, this place has the propensity for doing that.

Welcome to the Superman Boards :woot:

[C. Lee]

I think the problem of Lex wasn't self respect or intelligence (or the lack of those) but the fact he's quite famous for being a massive killer. No matter how 'intelligent' you could be, if your fame's based on how insane and dangerous you are, few business men would like to get their money involved with you. Let's not even mention to create a corporation when everybody knows you're an insane killer.

It was more about Lex's impossibility of making lots of money in short time, which he achieved with Gertrude. If for recovering his fortune, and maybe more in record time, Lex was pretty intelligent about getting involved with the old lady.

Well......if the storyline hadn't have relied so much on Donner's Superman movie......then they could have created a Lex backstory where he wasn't known for being a mass murderer. Then he could be the corporate scientific genius with plans to rule the world.

[Eros]

I don't get the point "New Krypton", theirs nothing their.

[C. Lee]

I don't get the point "New Krypton", theirs nothing their.

It wasn't finished transforming when it was thrown into space. Given more time, there's no telling what all could have appeared.

[Eros]

It wasn't finished transforming when it was thrown into space. Given more time, there's no telling what all could have appeared.

I suppose, but clearly nothing with a pulse will be their, Unless the crytsals can create life from nothing.

[C. Lee]

I suppose, but clearly nothing with a pulse will be their, Unless the crytsals can create life from nothing.

It seems to all depend on how you utilize them. If the one crystal managed to fuse Kryptonite into earth material (mud, dirt, rock, seawater) and start the formation of New Krypton.....then we don't know what can be formed by combining the other crystals with other materials.

[Eros]

It seems to all depend on how you utilize them. If the one crystal managed to fuse Kryptonite into earth material (mud, dirt, rock, seawater) and start the formation of New Krypton.....then we don't know what can be formed by combining the other crystals with other materials.


But its floating in deep space.

[C. Lee]

But its floating in deep space.

Yerp.....and there are meteors, asteroids, comets, planets, gases.....in space.....it could combine with something to make a space monster for Superman to fight. It could crash into the Phantom Zone with Zod and company in it abd the combination of crystals could break it open releasing them.....an alien could come into contact with it and be transformed.....there many possibilities.

[El Payaso]

Well......if the storyline hadn't have relied so much on Donner's Superman movie......then they could have created a Lex backstory where he wasn't known for being a mass murderer. Then he could be the corporate scientific genius with plans to rule the world.

But of course man. And I'm (and was) all for it.

Still I can see why Lex went with the old lady plan.

[Eros]

Yerp.....and there are meteors, asteroids, comets, planets, gases.....in space.....it could combine with something to make a space monster for Superman to fight. It could crash into the Phantom Zone with Zod and company in it abd the combination of crystals could break it open releasing them.....an alien could come into contact with it and be transformed.....there many possibilities.


1.How can it crash into the phantom zone, when the phantom zone is in another dimension? unless your talking about that stupid donnerverese phantom zone nonsense, and....... zod:o :whatever:

2. There very little proof, kryptoning crystals can ceate sentient life, because it sure didn't when it was on earth. also superman and lex touched the crystals, and they weren't transformed.

[C. Lee]

1.How can it crash into the phantom zone, when the phantom zone is in another dimension? unless your talking about that stupid donnerverese phantom zone nonsense, and....... zod:o :whatever:

2. There very little proof, kryptoning crystals can ceate sentient life, because it sure didn't when it was on earth. also superman and lex touched the crystals, and they weren't transformed.

(1) You answered it. It can crash into the Phantom Zone because SR was based on the Donner vision, and in that the PZ was the flying glass thing.

(2) So what? I am putting forth ideas for people to THINK about. Nothing is created by saying - it can't be done - .....things are created by saying - what if? Lex touched the crystals and nothing happened......but what if he had gotten some blood on it....what if he had held it close and breathed deeply upon it.....what if it was put inside a human or earth animals body....what if the crystals were dropped into the Brazilian rainforest......

[Showtime]

I don't get the point "New Krypton", theirs nothing their.

Don't you read comic books? Where is your imagination?

[regwec]

Superman can become an icon again by acting like a man, beating the crap out of dastardly cybernetic despots that one to enslave of destroy us, and then going home with humility and dignity.

I doubt anyone wants Superman to be humanised, and I doubt anyone really expects to relate to him. He should be more courageous, more noble and more honourable than us.

If he has all the same self pity and self regard as the rest of us, then he is nothing to look up to: he's just another crybaby with superpowers.

[C. Lee]

Don't you read comic books? Where is your imagination?

That's what I keep trying to express....so many here don't use their imagination.

[Showtime]

Fortunately I have to use my imagination, day and night.

[C. Lee]

Fortunately I have to use my imagination, day and night.

I've been reading science fiction novels and comics for over 40 years.....a lot of the ideas I throw out here are tame compared to a lot I've read....and yet most here think my stuff is over the top.

[CConn]

I don't like a flawed Superman. He can still be given an edge. Not black and white. Having fun with the powers and scaring the bad guys with a wink and nod. I think he can have an edge without being flawed.
I'm not saying Superman should be flawed. He shouldn't. That's not the character.

I was just saying, currently, people like flawed heroes...which isn't Superman.

[CConn]

But this Superman was flawed! Granted, he wasn't as f'd up as some of the other heroes but he definitely still had his issues. In fact, this is why some posters and fans weren't that taken with the character in the film(because of the "baggage" and personal issues he had in the film). If anything, he was sort of less the character we usually look up to with no questions asked.
But Superman's reputation as being too "perfect" started way before SR came out, and probably won't change due to SR. As I just said, Superman really ISN'T supposed to be flawed. At least, not in the same way Batman and Spider-Man are. Superman SHOULD be the guy we look up to, want to be, should bring us hope.

Unfortunately, people just aren't digging guys like that right now. Simple as that.

[Angeloz]

Except when they write the exceptional killings (about the lack of flaws). :oldrazz:

Angeloz

[MiddleSuperName]

need cool special effects action and hot women. superman will rule then, sounds like a joke but I am serious!