If there was no Williams Theme

[super-t]

jus wonderin wat kind of music yall would like to hear if all of a sudden they dropped the williams theme. Somthin kinda like spider-man would work to me as well.

for me personally "Tribute" by Armen Hambar has SUPERMAN all over it!

[Lighthouse]

Spider-Man theme wouldn't work for Superman, at least not for me. Superman's music needs to make your heart soar, and Elfman's score for that movie doesn't really feel epic.

[nintendo nerd]

jus wonderin wat kind of music yall would like to hear if all of a sudden they dropped the williams theme. Somthin kinda like spider-man would work to me as well.

for me personally "Tribute" by Armen Hambar has SUPERMAN all over it!

If Singer continues, the Williams Theme will stay. Besides, I can't imagine other Theme for Superman. Is just perfect.IMO

[Showtime]

Agreed.

[WhatsHisFace]

I think if they can't use the Williams Theme, they should have "Panic! At The Disco" write a song for them.











Just kidding. I'd use Klaus Badelt (Pirates of the Caribbean, The Time Machine, etc...) for a theme.

[Corben_Rulz]

If there were no Williams theme I would have nothing to hum in my head as I walk to work.

I seriously do this almost every day.

[Paste Pot Pete]

And yet if certain people got their way and this series was a restart, there would have been no Williams theme.

[batman44]

I'm actually quite fond of the Max Fleischer Superman theme.

[super-t]

i know its not goin anywhere ans i dont want it to, i jus wonderin wat yall would want in place of it

[buggs0268]

William's stuff wasnt the problem. It was the non Williams stuff that was.

[superbaby]

jus wonderin wat kind of music yall would like to hear if all of a sudden they dropped the williams theme. Somthin kinda like spider-man would work to me as well.

for me personally "Tribute" by Armen Hambar has SUPERMAN all over it!
i remember nothing about spiderman theme, although the 3 movies are very entertaining, especially spidey 2.

[Steelsheen]

If Singer continues, the Williams Theme will stay. Besides, I can't imagine other Theme for Superman. Is just perfect.IMO
agreed :up:


I'm actually quite fond of the Max Fleischer Superman theme.
uh no, not the way it is, unless they could rework that.

[Lightning54SC]

jus wonderin wat kind of music yall would like to hear if all of a sudden they dropped the williams theme. Somthin kinda like spider-man would work to me as well.

for me personally "Tribute" by Armen Hambar has SUPERMAN all over it!

ahhhh so someone like the music in my treaser :p as for Hambar id love for him to do a soundtrack, if i were the director id give him sample scenes and see what he came up with.... but a good choice indeed

[Max Shrek]

If the Williams theme is out, put in the Shirley Walker one.

[Jochimus]

IMO John Williams' Superman theme music IS Superman's theme music, much the way John Barry's Theme from Dr. No became James Bond's theme music, or the way Akira Ifkube's military theme from the first Godzilla movie became Godzilla's theme music over the years. There are artists at DC who've admitted to drawing the comics while listening to the movie soundtrack. At least one of the animated series made since Reeve's films ended has re-used the movie theme. And every time some other movie or TV shows makes any sort of reference to Superman with a musical cue attached to it, it's always John Williams' Superman theme that's playing.

You could DO a reboot and still re-use John Williams' theme music, because it's already identifiable to Superman for people who don't even read comics in the first place. Look at Casino Royale - it may have only popped up once, at the end, but Barry's Bond Theme is in there. And it doesn't diminish anything about the movie at all, IMO, because the theme music has become part of the iconic stature of the character.

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

then what would be the point of a Superman movie without it.

[Showtime]

You could DO a reboot and still re-use John Williams' theme music, because it's already identifiable to Superman for people who don't even read comics in the first place. Look at Casino Royale - it may have only popped up once, at the end, but Barry's Bond Theme is in there. And it doesn't diminish anything about the movie at all, IMO, because the theme music has become part of the iconic stature of the character.

http://www.espnstar.com/photo/1109227235986barry_bonds_240205.jpg
"I called this press conference to announce that I am suing the makers
of Casino Royale for using my theme song without the written consent
of Major League Baseball or me, Barry Bonds."

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

Barrys Bond theme?

Monty Norman my good fellow, not john Barry...barry jazzed up the theme.

[Showtime]

He said Barry Bonds, not me, and my joke was quite the funny.

[Dr. Fate]

Well, the Williams theme will have to go sooner or later. They got rid of the Danny Elfman Batman theme for "Batman Begins" so sooner or later a new theme will have to replace Williams'. I'm sure there are plenty of gifted musicians out there who can make a new Superman theme that will stand on its own and be inspiring to the audience.

[afan]

I'm actually quite fond of the Max Fleischer Superman theme.

There is a CD out there that presented this theme in a re-worked grandiose Williamsesque orchestration. It was quite good.
The CD included other classic Superman music (the 40's serials) similarly re-worked, but I'll be dipped if I can recall the title of the CD:(

The theme of the TV series The Adventures of Superman also fits the character very well, and lets not overlook the animated series intro. Each work being proof that Williams is not the be all and end all regarding the creator of suitably heroic themes for Superman.

[bosef982]

John Ottman's themes for Superman Returns were majestic and moving enough for me. I think he did an amazing integration of William's work and could more than create his own theme for Superman if neccessary.

[ROBOCOP CPU001]

He said Barry Bonds, not me, and my joke was quite the funny.

guess i must have missed the funny part..

:o

;)

[Steelsheen]

Well, the Williams theme will have to go sooner or later. They got rid of the Danny Elfman Batman theme for "Batman Begins" so sooner or later a new theme will have to replace Williams'. I'm sure there are plenty of gifted musicians out there who can make a new Superman theme that will stand on its own and be inspiring to the audience.

i know it may happen, but if they will they have to come up with something special or one different enough from the Williams theme, because however which way you cut it, the Williams theme is a instituion unto itself.

so was the Batman theme, and look at the debate that sparks whenever the Elfman theme is being discussed in the TDK forums.

[Mr. Socko]

I'm glad they did keep Williams' theme. Ottman is no where near as good, if he were to create a new Superman theme and replace the march, it would pale in comparison.

The Williams' theme cannot be done any better!

[Justice Bringer]

I like the theme on the video game.

[Jochimus]

Barrys Bond theme?

Monty Norman my good fellow, not john Barry...barry jazzed up the theme.

Well, O.K. then, Norman's Bond theme. My opinion's the same. :woot:

[bgshw44]

it would not be a superman movie w/ out the williaams theme

[gimmen64]

If there were no Williams them, I would have to go for Basil Polerdis.....his RoboCop Theme and Starship Troopers were awesome! I'm sad to say that he passed away last year and created many themes that I will always love. The composer I would have do a Superman Theme would be......going out on a limb and say Gustavo Santaolalla.

[TheBat812]

I think if they can't use the Williams Theme, they should have "Panic! At The Disco" write a song for them.











Just kidding. I'd use Klaus Badelt (Pirates of the Caribbean, The Time Machine, etc...) for a theme.
He's basically a lesser Hans Zimmer. No, I'd go with somebody like James Newton Howard or something. I think John Ottman's score is tremendous however, he did an amazing job following up such a classic score.

[mcflytrap]

Spider-Man theme wouldn't work for Superman, at least not for me. Superman's music needs to make your heart soar, and Elfman's score for that movie doesn't really feel epic.

That's because Elfman is a one-trick pony.

[Showtime]

I can't picture a Superman movie with out the Williams theme. It's blasphemy.

[Angeloz]

I can't picture a Superman movie with out the Williams theme. It's blasphemy.

I can. But I'd prefer it. Kind of like "Star Wars" or "Jaws" without their music (not a coincidence I chose them ;)). It shouldn't be done.

Angeloz

[Showtime]

Williams obsession.

[Angeloz]

I have got more than one of his CDs and have played them more than once. :oldrazz:

Angeloz

[Dr. Fate]

How about Howard Shore of Lord of the Rings?

[Angeloz]

Asking me or the thread? 'Cos I've got them too but not the double discs.

Angeloz

[GreenKToo]

A superman film without the williams theme would be like a cheeseburger without the cheese. you'd still eat it, but it wouldnt be as satisfying.

[The Kid]

I'd be fine with new music. Why not?

[griffolyon12]

I love William's theme.Just like the Bond theme,William's Superman theme it's iconic and is associated with the character forever.Personally I can't see any Superman film with any other theme,it just captures the spirit of the character perfectly.The only problem is if WB ever reboots Supes,like they did with BB,this could pose a problem.I just hope that when that time comes the filmmaker will make what he thinks is the right decision,use the William's theme or not.

[SuperZer0]

It would be tough imagining a Superman movie without the Williams theme.

If they're going for a new theme, it better be unique and iconic to Superman. They better not mess this up!

:supes:

[MonBeeb]

They should keep the Williams theme but do a new arrangement of it. Maybe a little more somber (depending on the tone of the movie, obviously).

Honestly, there's never any excuse to replace one of John Williams's themes, ever. Period. That's unacceptable. You can argue all you want that they got rid of Elfman's Batman theme, well, Elfman's not even on the same plane of existence.

[bunk]

He's basically a lesser Hans Zimmer.

Still, Black Pearl has a better score than Dead Man's Chest. But generally speaking, yes.

[BATZARRO WWD]

I'd be at ease if the Williams march didn't come back. I mean, seasons change, out with the old, in with the new, right? And besides, we don't know if the old theme really fits the rebooted franchise.

[MonBeeb]

"Out with the old, in with the new" applies to everything except Williams themes. The man is a genius and no current Hollywood composer is going to come up with anything better.

They should do a "newer" sounding arrangement of the old theme. But never replace it.

[ThePoisonPuppet]

They can change the actors, the costumes, they can even get rid of Lois Lane, but if they get rid of this music it simply won't be a Superman film. Its iconic. Its gotta be in the top 5 most famous movie themes of all time.

[X-Maniac]

I prefer the Superman Doomsday (animated movie) music, which was beautiful and very emotional.

They could use the original Williams score in the next movie somewhere (end credits?), but not as the predominant musical arrangement.

[NeoRanger]

I want the Williams theme out. If for nothing else, then just to kill the general disillusion that Superman is a movie instead of a comic book. It's high time he stopped being defined by the Donnerverse in its entirety.

Worst-case-scenario, I'd settle for either an arranged version or just a "cameo" appearance (for lack of a better term).

[COMPO]

I think they should use John Williams but kind of mold it into a different unique score kind of like Lois and Clark it sounded in the same way as Williams it made your heart soar but it was different in its own right.

[MonBeeb]

I want the Williams theme out. If for nothing else, then just to kill the general disillusion that Superman is a movie instead of a comic book.

The Superman movies ARE movies.

Getting rid of the Williams Superman theme would be just as appalling as getting rid of the Indiana Jones theme.

[BATZARRO WWD]

The Superman movies ARE movies.

Getting rid of the Williams Superman theme would be just as appalling as getting rid of the Indiana Jones theme.

Not a good example. The Indiana Jones theme and score were made forthe first incarnation of the franchise, a movie. However, the Superman the movie theme is but one of many themes that have graced the character in it's 70 year history. I think that, as good as Williams theme is, it is part of a movie series that is gone by. Further attachment would only "prove" how you "can't" go on without the theme. New theme.

[Venomfan]

Still, Black Pearl has a better score than Dead Man's Chest. But generally speaking, yes.
but Black Pearls soundtrack is all just reworkings of previous Zimmer soundtracks like Gladiator, the Rock, and Crimson Tide. It's almost identical.
actually, i remember listening to Gladiators soundtrack before Pirates came out, and my dad said "hey this would actually make a good theme for Pirates." imagine our suprise when we go see Pirates and its the same music lol

[DavidTyler]

I can't picture a Superman movie with out the Williams theme. It's blasphemy.

Then paint me red and cut off my ring finger because I think we need a complete and total clean break from the Donner film.

Something new and exciting. Maybe something less orchestral. Something pounding and vibrant.


When I was growing up, the 50's Superman theme was IT. I couldn't imagine a different peice of music to sonically illustrate the character. It spoke of speed and flying. It also spoke of strength.


Trust me, another theme will come along at some point and you'll adjust. In fact, you might come to love it more than the Williams theme .. or at least as much.


But we really REALLY need to break with the Donnerverse. It's done. It's over. We need the music to reflect the times. Superman is forever but his theme isn't.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I've said it before and I'll say it again I don't want to hear William's theme in a new Superman movie.

[batman44]

I'd prefer no Williams theme for the reboot.

[jmc]

New film, new score, all the shackles of the Donner-verse have to be removed, there's too much nostalgia attached to that series of movies, as iconic as the theme music is, it's time to let it go and embrace a new direction.

[El Payaso]

Same here.

New franchise, new vision, new approach, new actors, new theme.

[Asr]

Same here.

New franchise, new vision, new approach, new actors, new theme.

I would consider it nothing short of a miracle if WB actually pulled off a great Superman movie with new everything. I mean we got SR from them, how much faith can we realistically put into them for a great reboot? :csad:

[DavidTyler]

I would consider it nothing short of a miracle if WB actually pulled off a great Superman movie with new everything. I mean we got SR from them, how much faith can we realistically put into them for a great reboot? :csad:

You raise a very valid point.

The WB are basically suits.

They aren't fans. They don't even understand the properties.

The smartest thing they did was to get out of Nolan's way when he made Batman Begins - but now, again, they misunderstand. They're thinking that Batman is working now because he's dark. They're corporate moneyhandlers and it's not unlike them to think they need to make Superman dark to make it successful.

What they fail to grasp is that Batman is working now because Nolan brought in Goyer who was well versed in comics and in Batman. Nolan did not let it degenerate into 'Hey, this is a comic book movie.. we can dumb it down for the kids.' Nolan looked at Batman and gave us a Batman that could easily fit into one of the Bond films.

What Superman needs is a director who can look at the character can give us a feeling of reality without sacrificing the look and feel of the character.

Tall order, I know ... but the Spiderman films can do it. The Batman films are doing it.

[BATZARRO WWD]

I would consider it nothing short of a miracle if WB actually pulled off a great Superman movie with new everything. I mean we got SR from them, how much faith can we realistically put into them for a great reboot? :csad:

Hey, there are no guaranties when it comes to WB. As far as I know, they're thinking of ways to include both Calendarman AND Killermoth as well as the Bat-dance in the next Batman film:hehe: But as for a new Superman movie, they got their work cut out for them. But they already tried the continuation/emulation concept with the previous movie.

[Ishmayl]

I could definitely hear something along the lines of the Battlestar Galactica reimagined series - lots of heavy percussion with pulsing rhythms.

[Hole Shot]

I could go either way on this but the Williams score can definitely survive a reboot. The score is more associated with the character himself than a movie franchise.

You hear the 60's Batman theme, Burton's theme, Schumacher's theme and Nolan's theme - you associate the sound with the show or films.

Even if it's rooted in the movies, Superman has had one consistent theme for 30 years.

You hear Superman's theme or James Bond's theme and you associate them with the character.

[NotFadeAway]

A theme along the lines of Gladiator/Count of Monte Cristo/Batman Begins!

[MonBeeb]

I think that, as good as Williams theme is, it is part of a movie series that is gone by. Further attachment would only "prove" how you "can't" go on without the theme. New theme.

But that's ridiculous. It's not that they should keep the Williams theme because it "belongs" to Superman. It's that they should keep it because no other composer will come up with anything better.

You "can't" go on without it because there's not going to be anything better. It has nothing to do with the "Donnerverse." It's as simple as the fact that John Williams wrote the theme, and he's the best composer in Hollywood. There's not really an excuse to replace his work. It will inevitably be worse.

[dark_b]

this is just wrong.
williams theme can not fit in every superman movie. and hte part where you said it would b just worse. why does it always have to be worse? why not just ''different''?

people are IMO obssesed with teh Williams theme. this is an obsession and a reason why we didnt get an original superman movie in 2006.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I agree dark b. What if the William's theme doesn't fit with the new Superman movie? Hell, I didn't think that it really worked in SR.

[DavidTyler]

William's theme wasn't the only Superman theme and it's time to let in 'the new'.

John William's theme is VERY MUCH identified with the Donner films. It's not something that will survive a reboot.

The General Audience needs to have COMPLETE separation from any interpretation that's gone before. Otherwise they're going to see connections where there shouldn't be any.

The majority of the problem is that many of you grew up with that theme and have sentimental attachments to it.

You may think that it's impossible to come up with something as good but remember this, the theme from the George Reeves series was considered to be the quintessential Superman theme for a long time until William's came along. Whoever follows will be THE composer for the next generation of Superman fans.

It's OK.... you still have the music for those of you nostalgic for it. Just throw in your DVD or your soundtrack CD. For the rest of us, we really want a complete overhaul with no connections to Donner or Singer.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

^Well said.

[Bad Superman]

I think the Williams march theme should be kept. As for the rest, I wouldn't mind if Williams is used with brand new music or another composer is brought to the project.

Bottom line: Keep the Williams Superman march.

It worked for the Bond franchise reboot, why not Superman?

[I SEE SPIDEY]

If the Willaim's theme is used it will never truely be able to distance itself from the Donner films. I for one would be extremely disappointed if another Donner connected Superman movie came out.

Superman isn't Bond. He's in desperate need of an overhaul, right now he's on the verge of becoming irrelevant. That march might not/probably wont fit with a non-Donner/Donner wannabe version of the character. I don't see it the same as Bond at all because the Donner version has been run into the ground. We need to run not walk away from it. If SR hadn't come out and f**ked everything up I probably would have been up for using the march.

Imagine people setting in the theater and the Superman title pops up on screen and a whole new theme comes on, they will know that this is a different Superman right away, kinda like Batman Begins is different from Batman.

Now Imagine the Superman title pops up on the screen and the Williams theme plays. Oh the audience member is thinking, this must be a sequel to Superman Returns and then it's not. I'm confused they think, where is the kid? Blah, Blah Blah. A whole new theme gets it across as well as tons of advertizing that this is a whole new Superman movie, a new vision of the character, a freakin redo.

[Hole Shot]

William's theme wasn't the only Superman theme and it's time to let in 'the new'.

John William's theme is VERY MUCH identified with the Donner films. It's not something that will survive a reboot. .


Yes it could. You just don't want it to, and I don't care either way.



The General Audience needs to have COMPLETE separation from any interpretation that's gone before. Otherwise they're going to see connections where there shouldn't be any.

They don't. Most people aren't retarded.




The majority of the problem is that many of you grew up with that theme and have sentimental attachments to it.

Not as bad a problem as you thinking for us.


You may think that it's impossible to come up with something as good

No I don't, I said I could go either way.


It's OK.... you still have the music for those of you nostalgic for it. Just throw in your DVD or your soundtrack CD. For the rest of us, we really want a complete overhaul with no connections to Donner or Singer.

You need to stop talking down to people and assuming their thoughts, it's really obnoxious.

[dark_b]

so because you like the music every superman version needs to have the same type of music?

TDK is one of hte best comicbook movies IMO. should they stop makign comicbook movies now? the same with the music IMO.

[Hole Shot]

so because you like the music every superman version needs to have the same type of music?

Why is this so hard to grasp? I never said they have to keep the Williams theme. For conversation's sake I only gave a reasoning as to why it could continue even in a reboot, not why it should or has to. My point being that the theme has reached a point where it identifies the character more than the actual movie. That's not me saying "SAVE THE WILLIAMS SCORE?!?!"

But I'm totally fine with them moving on and coming up with something new. I'm not demanding one or the other. Just want to present both sides of the argument. We know why the score is likely going to change and not only do I expect it to but I also agree why it should for the most part. Not too mention that when the first news of the reboot came I do remember telling people to accept that the score would die with the old series.

[DavidTyler]

Yes it could. You just don't want it to, and I don't care either way.




They don't. Most people aren't retarded.





Not as bad a problem as you thinking for us.



No I don't, I said I could go either way.



You need to stop talking down to people and assuming their thoughts, it's really obnoxious.

Obnoxious? Assumptions?

I'm looking at someone trying to pick a fight over what they THINK I was saying.

Please debate in a civil manner.


There is nothing in my post that isn't defendable. There ARE people who have a sentimental attachment to that Williams score who can't envision any other theme or don't want to. The General Audiences aren't close enough to the character to get that it's a restart until half way through the film. I never said they were stupid or - to use your remark 'retarded'. The general public didn't get that Begins was a reboot at first.

It's not that I don't WANT the Williams theme or don't LIKE it. It's that the general audiences are not close or involved enough to get that it's a reboot if strong severances are not excersized.

And I really think it's time to see what someone else can do for a Superman theme. Look at the animated series. It's not the Williams theme and it's not bad. I wouldn't want it for a feature film but it's well done and evokes sonic images of Superman.

Hell, I've even written a Superman theme myself ... and I wouldn't want to use that for a major motion picture. I was writing a rock opera. Still monkey with it from time to time.

And I resent the remark about 'talking down to people'. If anything, I try to elevate the conversation.

And you obviously do care.

[solidsnake86]

I'm gonna have to agree with you DavidTyler. Really just look at batman and you have you're answer. The Elfman theme was great, they didn't use it. The williams theme needs to be put to rest with the old franchise.

How can we get a new series if people are constantly thinking about what they should use from the old series. In the end it doesn't matter to me, but where does it end, first the williams theme, than something else, thats why we got returns. I liked the film but a lot of people didn't.

[MonBeeb]

Really just look at batman and you have you're answer. The Elfman theme was great, they didn't use it.

Elfman's not quite on the same level as Williams. That's not much of a comparison.

Besides, if people had heard the Elfman theme in Batman Begins, I sincerely doubt anyone would have gone, "OH NO. THE ELFMAN THEME. THIS IS GOING TO BE ANOTHER TIM BURTON MOVIE."

A different, more contemporary arrangement of a familiar theme can be nostalgic and something entirely new at the same time. I really don't see the problem with that route.

[Hole Shot]

Obnoxious? Assumptions?

I'm looking at someone trying to pick a fight over what they THINK I was saying.

Please debate in a civil manner.


There is nothing in my post that isn't defendable. There ARE people who have a sentimental attachment to that Williams score who can't envision any other theme or don't want to. The General Audiences aren't close enough to the character to get that it's a restart until half way through the film. I never said they were stupid or - to use your remark 'retarded'. The general public didn't get that Begins was a reboot at first.

It's not that I don't WANT the Williams theme or don't LIKE it. It's that the general audiences are not close or involved enough to get that it's a reboot if strong severances are not excersized.

And I really think it's time to see what someone else can do for a Superman theme. Look at the animated series. It's not the Williams theme and it's not bad. I wouldn't want it for a feature film but it's well done and evokes sonic images of Superman.

Hell, I've even written a Superman theme myself ... and I wouldn't want to use that for a major motion picture. I was writing a rock opera. Still monkey with it from time to time.

And I resent the remark about 'talking down to people'. If anything, I try to elevate the conversation.

And you obviously do care.


Look, I'm sick and I'm in a bad mood today, so maybe I did come off a little more hostile than I should have. But then you used my words in your post and then when on to make generalizations that I saw directed at me that I didn't agree with.

And yes I care but what you think I care about versus what I actually do care about is different.

Where we disagree and what I'm trying to say is that I don't believe that when the general audience hear's the theme, they don't think "Donner." That's what we do because we're fanatics. When they hear that tune, they just think Superman. And that's the ONLY reason why I could see them keeping the theme.

At the same time I don't think it's enough reason to not give a new Superman and new them.

[NeoRanger]

That's what we do because we're fanatics. When they hear that tune, the just think Superman

I think here's where the basic disagreement lies. You're right; they certainly don't think "Donner" when they hear the theme. They think "Superman". But I believe the problem is that the only "Superman" they know, for the most part, is the one that came from a crystal planet, was Marlon Brando's son and flew with the William's theme in the background. If SR wasn't so recent and if Smallville wasn't loosely based off the same world, using the theme wouldn't be an issue at all.

I could do with an arrangement though, so long as it kept things clear that this isn't the same series of movies.

[dark_b]

the williams theme was recorded for S:TM and for donners vision in the 70's.

how can the theme fit in a new vision,reboot 30 years later? sorry there are no reasons to keep the old theme.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

I agree it sounds like 70's music, it's too old school. It's good but it's old, I want Something new.

[solidsnake86]

Elfman's not quite on the same level as Williams. That's not much of a comparison.

Besides, if people had heard the Elfman theme in Batman Begins, I sincerely doubt anyone would have gone, "OH NO. THE ELFMAN THEME. THIS IS GOING TO BE ANOTHER TIM BURTON MOVIE."

A different, more contemporary arrangement of a familiar theme can be nostalgic and something entirely new at the same time. I really don't see the problem with that route.


Thats what you think, but personally I like Elfmans theme a heck of a lot better than Williams theme. The STM is dated and sounds like 70's music, not to mention it sounds like it could be another theme from star wars. It's funny because the animated series didn't use williams theme but they used Elfman's for Batman.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Thats what you think, but personally I like Elfmans theme a heck of a lot better than Williams theme. The STM is dated and sounds like 70's music, not to mention it sounds like it could be another theme from star wars. It's funny because the animated series didn't use williams theme but they used Elfman's for Batman.Exactly!!:up: It's like you dug into my mind and pulled out my exact opinion.

[solidsnake86]

Personally (even though I'll be attacked by the diehards) most of Williams theme sound like they are from the same movie, try thinking of the star wars theme, than superman, than indiana jones, its pretty hard to switch from song to song without having some sort of overlap. I just hope if WB reads here or bluetights that they don't actually listen to the fans who want to keep it.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Personally (even though I'll be attacked by the diehards) most of Williams theme sound like they are from the same movie, try thinking of the star wars theme, than superman, than indiana jones, its pretty hard to switch from song to song without having some sort of overlap. I just hope if WB reads here or bluetights that they don't actually listen to the fans who want to keep it.I damn sure hope so.

[hatebox]

If it's a new vision, get a new theme. No score is so good it can't be topped.

[Hole Shot]

Maybe I'm not reading all the posts, but is there someone in thread claiming that the Williams score has to stay? And I'm just assuming everyone is making ^ claims in response to my statement?

Because I'm still trying to figure out where in this thread I lobbied to keep the original score. I know I offered a perspective that could argue for keeping the score but not in the least opposed to something new.


Personally (even though I'll be attacked by the diehards) most of Williams theme sound like they are from the same movie, try thinking of the star wars theme, than superman, than indiana jones,

It's not just your ears. Superman and Star Wars are very close and the story is that Williams kinda half assed it there because he figured like many others that Star Wars was going to be a forgettable flop.

[daywalker2007]

the williams theme was recorded for S:TM and for donners vision in the 70's.

how can the theme fit in a new vision,reboot 30 years later? sorry there are no reasons to keep the old theme.

any of the john williams score for superman the movie can be reused effectively without a single problem.

the fact that it is one of the greatest pieces of music scores ever composed still to this is enough of a reason. it is timeless music which will never date.

Same with Danny Elfman's batman score, it is timeless and will never sound dated.

Whereas if you look at Hans Zimmer's Batman Begins/Dark Knight Score, he uses a lot of synths WHICH WILL sound dated in a few years time, let alone decades later.

Same thing with many so called "composers" these days.
With their obligatory synth percussion and crappy non existent themes, its no wonder people are used to so much crap these days and accept it.

Sorry, but William's theme is forever going to be Superman's theme and nothing can change that.

NOT even a Zimmer or Jablonsky cheesy synth composition excuse for a "score".

Leave the epic score to the experts like Williams.

The only men even capable of providing a brand new score and possibly matching John Williams are James Horner or Vangelis. Go have a listen to Horner's Star Trek 2 score or Vangelis's "Alexander" score and then understand how a real score is made.

Not some crappy Steve Jablonsky score composed on a PC and then layered with multiple synthesizers which will "DATE" the score badly.

[daywalker2007]

Thats what you think, but personally I like Elfmans theme a heck of a lot better than Williams theme. The STM is dated and sounds like 70's music, not to mention it sounds like it could be another theme from star wars. It's funny because the animated series didn't use williams theme but they used Elfman's for Batman.

What a ridiculous view you have, calling Star wars and superman "70s".
You don't have a clue about what a movie score is supposed to sound like.

Well, who can blame you lot, growing up on crappy Han Zimmer scores and the same media venture scores which are regurgitated by his clones such as Ramin Djwadi, Klaus Badel, Steve Jablonsky, etc

Williams wipes the floor with all the lot.

Bring on James Horner please or Vangelis please.
No need for amateurs, its time for the professionals who can at least match Williams.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Somebody is Williams fanatic. So says you is the only response I have to both of your posts.

[daywalker2007]

I agree it sounds like 70's music, it's too old school. It's good but it's old, I want Something new.

if you think superman sounds 70s,
you need help.

[daywalker2007]

ill even take a John Ottman reject score over a Hans Zimmer score.
At least he knows when to reuse themes and integrate them into a new one.

[dark_b]

Somebody is Williams fanatic. So says you is the only response I have to both of your posts.i think i am over with him. like you said like a williams fanatic.


and solid: i listened on youtube the williams scores(indiana jones,star wars and superman) and you are right. they sound very similar.
i still like them. and i think they are very good. but they use the same instruments so they are very similar.

i think williams music is not timeless. the music is connected to the movie. and hte movie is not timeless so IMO the music is not timeless.

if the Williams music is so good and timeless then why are not other composers using williams and ellfmans music as reference for themselfs? like in the new movies?

sorry but in 2008 they make different type of music then they made in the 70's and 80's. nothing wrong with that. different themes and different stories. its all ok.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

if you think superman sounds 70s,
you need help.No, you just need to pull your head out of Willaims and Donner butt and let somebody have a crack at making Superman relevent again.

"This and that can never be topped or replaced." It's people like you that got us a modern Superman movie thats really just a mopey remake of the first movie despite being a psudeo sequel to the first and second movies from the 1970's/80's.

You may like watching the exact same movie and hearing the exact same 70's music but I'm fed up with it. I'm tired of hearing Williams music even when it doesn't fit the movie. (like it didn't fit in the drabby remake) Most of all I think that his theme and Donner's Superman movies are totally overrated.

Regarding your synthesizer rant: I don't think that T2's score sounds dated but the same can't be said for Williams old ass Superman theme.

I think that it is you that needs help, let Donner, and Willaims but extension, go.

Edit: John Ottman has never made anything resembling a special of even good score. He is a lightweight.

[Hole Shot]

Somebody is Williams fanatic. So says you is the only response I have to both of your posts.

See those guys are Williams fanatics, I was just trying to make small talk.:woot:

[Lead Cenobite]

I like how people look down on anything not made in the 90s or 2000s. "It sounds so 70s" in other words, GOOD. Half the modern stuff is forgettable. I'm not a Williams fanatic, I don't like every single one of his scores, but his Superman score is the best and I have a reasonable doubt that any other new theme would be forgettable, if all the recent superhero movies are an indication.

[NeoRanger]

I think the "sounds so '70s" comment has nothing to do with either with arrogance and/or ignorance, or the theme's quality. It has to do with the fact that the '70s where thirty years ago and sound has changed a lot since. And refers to a different crowd.

It's a little bit hypocritical being sarcastic with people for looking down on things from a past era that don't concern them, when you more or less do the same.

[Chris B]

I think they should probably go with something new, but I do think that any new Superman theme should follow the trend that all of the past scores, including Williams, followed where the song's melody is arranged in a way where is sounds as though it keeps saying the word "Superman" over and over again.

Howard Shore and James Horner would be some names who I think could come up with something good.

[solidsnake86]

Just to make it clear hole shot I understand that you were just looking at it from another perspective, I'm refering to the fanatics that showed up and talk about it's timeless feel. They're the reason SR was made and then they even complain about that. Let me guess, they grew up with STM, no kidding their biased toward it. The theme sounded very out of place in SR to be honest because it belongs to a different time period. I think a theme should represent the type of movie its being played for, Elfman's theme worked perfectly for Burton, it wouldnt work so much for Nolan's. SR failed to resonate with people because it tried to hard to connect with the 40 and 50 year old STM fans who think that the general population would actually rank that as the best superhero movie ever, or even have watched it for that matter. News flash, spider-man, batman and iron man really make superman look like a joke now.

People say Batman Begins is overrated but I'm really tired of hearing that STM can't be top'd. Thats why I firmly believe in rebooting the thing from the origin now because its about time. This is why superman is stuck in development hell half the time because no one can actually come out and say "we appreciate STM, but lets do it better."

[Lead Cenobite]

I think the "sounds so '70s" comment has nothing to do with either with arrogance and/or ignorance, or the theme's quality. It has to do with the fact that the '70s where thirty years ago and sound has changed a lot since. And refers to a different crowd.

It's a little bit hypocritical being sarcastic with people for looking down on things from a past era that don't concern them, when you more or less do the same.

I'm not sure how I'm doing the same.

[Hole Shot]

Just to make it clear hole shot I understand that you were just looking at it from another perspective, I'm refering to the fanatics that showed up and talk about it's timeless feel.

Thanks bro! Yeah, I kinda overlooked and thought all the opposition was being directed towards me and acted a little too butt hurt about it. I apologize to anyone that I came off as too hostile.

[solidsnake86]

No problem, I was worried that my comment might have seemed like it was directed at you, I just generally refer to what I read everywhere on the net when I talk about superman. In the end I could care less about the music, I'm more concerned about the story, its just it starts with the music, than moves to the costume and before you know it STM is on screen again because some people even want the exact same Reeve costume. Its time to move.

[jmc]

Just to make it clear hole shot I understand that you were just looking at it from another perspective, I'm refering to the fanatics that showed up and talk about it's timeless feel. They're the reason SR was made and then they even complain about that. Let me guess, they grew up with STM, no kidding their biased toward it. The theme sounded very out of place in SR to be honest because it belongs to a different time period. I think a theme should represent the type of movie its being played for, Elfman's theme worked perfectly for Burton, it wouldnt work so much for Nolan's. SR failed to resonate with people because it tried to hard to connect with the 40 and 50 year old STM fans who think that the general population would actually rank that as the best superhero movie ever, or even have watched it for that matter. News flash, spider-man, batman and iron man really make superman look like a joke now.

People say Batman Begins is overrated but I'm really tired of hearing that STM can't be top'd. Thats why I firmly believe in rebooting the thing from the origin now because its about time. This is why superman is stuck in development hell half the time because no one can actually come out and say "we appreciate STM, but lets do it better."

So true, there's too much looking at the past and holding what's come before on a pedestal and not enough looking forward and embracing something new and potentially exciting, the Donner films will always be there, but it's not the be all and end all for the character, it's a new generation and a new direction is needed in all areas, much like how the Batman franchise was in serious need of a kick in the arse, Superman needs fresh eyes and fresh ideas. The time is right for it.

[markaudette]

Sorry. But I can't deal with a Superman movie not having the John Williams theme in it.

Just can't deal with it.

[DavidTyler]

Thanks bro! Yeah, I kinda overlooked and thought all the opposition was being directed towards me and acted a little too butt hurt about it. I apologize to anyone that I came off as too hostile.

I'm sorry if my post sounded as if it was directed at you. I was just using your post as a jumping off point to start a dialogue and voice some my opinion on some general observations. Not my intention to raise hostilities...

I hope you're feeling better.

[romeogbs19]

New franchise, new vision, new approach, new actors, new theme.

:up: 100% agree.

[X-Maniac]

Sorry. But I can't deal with a Superman movie not having the John Williams theme in it.

Just can't deal with it.

You will have to deal with it. The comicbook doesn't come with theme music. The Williams theme belongs to a set of Superman movies, not to Superman. Get a grip.

[MonBeeb]

I still don't see what's so hard about doing a more contemporary arrangement of the older theme. The Batman theme sounded distinctly 80s when Elfman did it but when the animated series came around they managed to make that same theme sound like it was from a completely different period.

I really get the vibe that everybody says "GET RID OF THE THEME" just because Batman did it. Not every superhero movie has to be Batman. I'd really prefer if most of them weren't.

[NeoRanger]

I really get the vibe that everybody says "GET RID OF THE THEME" just because Batman did it.
Where exactly do you get this vibe from? Batman doing it isn't exactly the leading argument for ditching the William's theme.

Like I said earlier, if Smallville and especially SR haven't been so clear about borrowing from the Donner films and placing themselves vaguely in the same universe, complete with William's music, it probably would've been fine to use the theme. That's no longer the case.

[dark_b]

I still don't see what's so hard about doing a more contemporary arrangement of the older theme. The Batman theme sounded distinctly 80s when Elfman did it but when the animated series came around they managed to make that same theme sound like it was from a completely different period.

I really get the vibe that everybody says "GET RID OF THE THEME" just because Batman did it. Not every superhero movie has to be Batman. I'd really prefer if most of them weren't.elfman was doing the theme for batman TAS. and correct me if i am worong but wasnt the TAS a semi sequel to the movies? the buildings looked very similar.

so yeah... not the same IMO.

[GoblinWhirlwind]

Sorry. But I can't deal with a Superman movie not having the John Williams theme in it.

Just can't deal with it.

I hear that. I think a some changes might be acceptable, to signify to the ignorant masses that it is indeed new, but overall the core should remain the same. It IS Superman's theme, as iconic and important to him on the bigscreen as the Star Wars theme, Indy or the 007 theme is to Bond.

[DavidTyler]

How about if they just use the William's theme for the end credits?

I'm just looking for a compromise here - I could really do without that theme ever again.

[mclay18]

elfman was doing the theme for batman TAS. and correct me if i am worong but wasnt the TAS a semi sequel to the movies? the buildings looked very similar.

so yeah... not the same IMO.

Yeah, but...

Elfman's original BAS theme was used until Batman: Mask of the Phantasm came out (scored by Shirley Walker). And the final BAS season had a shortened version of the Walker theme for the opening credits... it was that good.

Mind you, Walker's theme was different, but was in the same style essentially. Even more so than Goldenthal's Batman theme, since Walker did orchestrate and conduct quite a few of Elfman's earlier scores.

[jmc]

How about if they just use the William's theme for the end credits?

I'm just looking for a compromise here - I could really do without that theme ever again.

Here in lies the problem, it shouldn't be a matter of having to compromise, the original theme will always be a part of the live action Superman folklore, but it's not the only theme that can represent Superman. I really feel sorry for those who are reluctant to embrace change.

[Hole Shot]

You know what I realized. I just really like the beginning of the theme especially how it was used at the opening of Superman returns when the text was up that said

"A wise scientist blah blah blah"

and you faintly here the: duh-nuh-nuh-nuh duh duh duh and it builds duh-nuh-nuh-nuh duh duh duh

you know you can hear just by reading that ^:cwink:

[Microchip]

I don't think that kids were humming that song to themselves when they were reading the comic books back in the 1930s. Sure it's powerful, but there is a plethora of talented composers out there who can give Superman another take on the theme.

It can be done differently, it can be done better, and Superman will be better for it.

[GoblinWhirlwind]

Superman wasn't the same person in the 30's as he is today.

Like I said, it could be changed.. a "remix" of sorts, but the core of it should remain recognizeable.

[DavidTyler]

I know I don't really want the Donner theme in any new film but there are so many here that are adamant about it. I was just trying to find a way to keep peace.

Myself... I would love in the deepest sense of that word to hear where someone else will take that theme.

Like I said before - when I was growing up, the theme from the George Reeves show was IT. There could be no other theme. It had excitement and speed. It made you think of racing thru the air at incredible speed with the wind whistling in your ears. It also had a marching beat to it that felt strong and patriotic.

Then came the Williams theme and that was IT. It was majestic and epic.

Believe me when I say change can be exciting. We aren't losing anything by allowing change. The William's theme is still out there and any of us can listen to it anytime we want. We don't need to have it follow us into every franchise. Batman has a new theme, why not Superman.

[BATZARRO WWD]

I dunno. I feel if you're not gonna get the actual John Williams, using his theme won't really be all that good.

[GoblinWhirlwind]

People over on the other board want his suit completely redesigned... one idiot even asked if it was necessary to have the :super: on his chest. People here want to get rid of his theme.. makes me wonder how many are actual fans.

[NeoRanger]

I don't want the Williams theme. I'm not really a Superman fan. I only keep my pile of comic books, because I like to waste space.

The.Williams.Theme.is.not.Superman's.theme. It's.the."Superman:The.Movie".theme. Can people finally get that and be done with it?

[daywalker2007]

the only person on Planet earth who can come up with a unique theme for Superman which is totally different to William's is Vangelis.

The guy is a genius and if allowed, he would make superman's music into an epic, unique sound.

New Superman reboot with new cast, new serious darker type story = Vangelis for music score.

Accept no substitutes!

For anyone who wants a taste of what real music is about,just listen to these Vangelis movie scores! Truly epic scores. And if you watch the video on youtube, the man goes into every session, not knowing what he is going to come up with! He sees the movie and then makes the music on the spot! Incredible!

Blade Runner
Alexander
1492

[darthlaney]

I'd be happy for the Williams theme to be used at the most action packed point of the movie- the most SUPER part or SUPER act. They can design a whole new score apart from this point.

In a perfect world I'd like to see it during the titles, with the flying in and out text, but don't expect it at this point.

[Union Jack]

the williams theme is integeral to superman...its like star wars without it theme..its not right.
who would like to see star wars 7 with a new different theme..no you want it to be right and that means the proper theme and proper costume and a decent kick ass storyline that doesnt have superman having a love child in it!!

[Brian Braddock]

If the Williams theme isn't there, it'd be just plain weird. I mean - it's iconic.

But, if we are getting a total re-boot, I can see the logic in it's being thrown out. They will want toshow the new movie as not having any ties to the Donner/Singer Superman and Williams' theme is, unfortunately, synonomus with that. :csad:

I can only hope that it gets a worthy replacement (highly unlikely, I know); something akin to James Horner's 'Genesis Countdown' for Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan. One of my all-times faves:-

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/V5yM9FSFfjk&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/V5yM9FSFfjk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I think of Supes battling against giant spaceships everytime I hear it.

[Union Jack]

nah,the williams theme is as good as it gets...it's not synonomus with donner etc its is just superman...ottmans version was great it was rousing and booming and the planet krypton take was brilliant.
the music will be the cherry on the icing of the cake if the movie is great..everyone will walk out of the cinema and think "now that was a superman movie"..cos it'll be all we want it to be...we want the theme we want the costume and with that a superman film to be worthy of the worlds greatest superhero!!!

[jmc]

Why can't new music be the icing on the cake?

[I SEE SPIDEY]

As far as I'm concerned new music would be.

[GoblinWhirlwind]

I don't want the Williams theme. I'm not really a Superman fan. I only keep my pile of comic books, because I like to waste space.

The.Williams.Theme.is.not.Superman's.theme. It's.the."Superman:The.Movie".theme. Can people finally get that and be done with it?

If you really don't care for Superman, you shouldn't really get a say in anything then, should you?

nah,the williams theme is as good as it gets...it's not synonomus with donner etc its is just superman...ottmans version was great it was rousing and booming and the planet krypton take was brilliant.

I hear that. Ottman managed to take Williams theme an enhance it. Anytime I hear it, Superman in all his forms flashes through my head. Which is what I said to begin with.. they don't have the use the original theme straight from 1978.. it can be enhanced further, remixed, but the core march should always exist. THAT equals Superman.

[NeoRanger]

If you really don't care for Superman, you shouldn't really get a say in anything then, should you?

True. Then why do you have a say in anything, again?

[GoblinWhirlwind]

True. Then why do you have a say in anything, again?

I'm not sure what you're getting it. You're not suggesting I'm not a fan now.. are you?

[NeoRanger]

Of course not. You are the key-holder to the Superman fandom, after all.

[solidsnake86]

This argument over the theme song is exactly why a new series has such a hard time of being developed. Its a theme song and people can't get over it, superman is a property that has existed for 70 years, that song does not define him, contrary to what some might say. Every time bringing in something new is suggested it always goes back to what can we save from superman the movie and force into the new one.

[jmc]

^ So true, if we keep making concessions as to what stays and what goes, you run the risk of history repeating itself.

[Hole Shot]

I don't think that kids were humming that song to themselves when they were reading the comic books back in the 1930s. Sure it's powerful, but there is a plethora of talented composers out there who can give Superman another take on the theme.

It can be done differently, it can be done better, and Superman will be better for it.


I guess what I was trying to say is that the more I listen to theme I'm not so much married to it as I just love the first few notes. The main part of theme actually makes me think of Shaquil O'Neill more than Superman.

[Union Jack]

i don't get why the theme needs to be changed..the theme is one of the best things...if you actually listen to so redo's of the theme like in superman 4 it was awful..

the theme fdrom returns and 1 and 2 is fantatsic..if we can keep the old greatness from the films but crfeate a great film surely thats what we want..the folk who want rid of the theme cannot like the theme too much.
the superman theme is as much important to superman as the star wars theme is to star wars..

[darthlaney]

hey Union Jack - I love the Superman theme and would love to have it back, but I'll play devils advocate here - comparisions to Star Wars don't assist the argument. Star Wars was never rebooted. So a new theme was not needed. My way of looking at it is that a reboot means out with the old and a fresh look, clean start up. Star Wars was built onto - expanded - like SR was meant to do to the original Superman movies.

[Brian Braddock]

I think that's a pretty fair description, Darth.

As I stated myself; I love the Williams theme, it's one of the truly iconic cinematic themes of all time but I cant see a place for it in a franchise that will, most likely, be trying to do everything it can to differenciate itself from it's previous incarnation.

[CLARKY]

jus wonderin wat kind of music you all would like to hear if all of a sudden they dropped the williams theme. Somthin kinda like spider-man would work to me as well.
I think the Spiderman theme is far too weak for Superman, IMO.
For me the John Williams theme is part of te identity of the character now, and since almost 30 years and I think it should be kept. I can't imagine nor want another theme. In my opinion, whatever they decide to do, I think changing the theme is the worse mistake to make. I think I could anyhow survived Superman dressed in pink, but not this.

Nevertheless, there is always room for personnal interpretation ; and I think it could be used like the james bond theme ; Use the same theme but just adapt it to the kind of movie you make even if it is slightly shown or heard.
I think it's a clever way to unify most people. And I think that, compared to the "basic" J.Williams theme, all the differences of another personal interpretation would be even more visible.Maybe it could help find something more suitable to the era, I don't know, I just think they should not get rid of it.
:super:

[GreenKToo]

hey Union Jack - I love the Superman theme and would love to have it back, but I'll play devils advocate here - comparisions to Star Wars don't assist the argument. Star Wars was never rebooted. So a new theme was not needed. My way of looking at it is that a reboot means out with the old and a fresh look, clean start up. Star Wars was built onto - expanded - like SR was meant to do to the original Superman movies.
One franchise that comes to mind that has always used it's main theme is James Bond.
Personally, I wouldnt really mind a new theme if it can make me think ''Superman'' when I hear it.

[dark_b]

james bond is also again different IMO.
it never had direct sequels.

[Brian Braddock]

This much is true.

[dark_b]

the movies are always like superman returns to S:TM
this new james bond movie is a 100% sequel to casino royale. this is the first time right?

[I SEE SPIDEY]

This argument over the theme song is exactly why a new series has such a hard time of being developed. Its a theme song and people can't get over it, superman is a property that has existed for 70 years, that song does not define him, contrary to what some might say. Every time bringing in something new is suggested it always goes back to what can we save from superman the movie and force into the new one.Thankyou! You are completely dead on.

[jmc]

the movies are always like superman returns to S:TM
this new james bond movie is a 100% sequel to casino royale. this is the first time right?

Yep, Quantum of Solace is the first direct sequel. The Bond franchise has always loosely been in the same continuity, regardless of the actor playing him, hence why the theme has remained to this day.

[GoblinWhirlwind]

Casino Royale was a reboot, yet a newer and better version theme was there at the end, perfectly used.

[Superark]

This is an AWESOME modernized version of the Williams theme!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJScOC4s9-k

[dark_b]

This is an AWESOME modernized version of the Williams theme!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJScOC4s9-kthis is a joke right?
a guitar is a modern instrument for epic movie scores?

i bet tha tpeople on the street would think that this is fro mthe 80's and the beginning of the 90's

[Iceburgeruk]

The only reason to go for a new theme is if you can do a better one. There`s a chance you could do one better but what are the chances. The fact is people don`t associate the theme with 70s superman they associate it with superman full stop. You stand at a bus stop and do a couple of notes of that song and the guy standing next to you will know exactly what theme you are doing.

It`s like the bond theme. You could redo it but the chances of getting a song as iconic and catchy is a million to one.

They didn`t keep the batman theme because lets face it it was kinda supes theme rip-off anyway. Don`t most superhero movies rip-off the williams superman theme if they want an epic hero moment?

Yes change is good. We want a fresh franchise. But we don`t want to throw the baby out with the bath water. If you change everything then what are you left with? "Right the first superman film had...an iconic theme, an admiarble hero, a villain, a fairly good script and a good actor. So for a reboot we need to get rid of everything from the donnarverse. So we`d best have.. no iconic theme, a dispicable hero, no villain, a script so bad it burns the ozone layer and the worst actor in history as supes."

It`s all beside the point as will WB, a bunch of execs who are out to make money, get rid of a theme which is instantly recognizable and adored by many? Of course not they will want little toys doing the theme and they will stick the theme in the trailers so as to immediatly catch people`s attention. Which the williams theme would. If you were sitting in a theatre waiting for the new wolverine flick to start and some random new supes theme started you wouldn`t react much. Hearing the first few notes of the williams theme even without any images would ctach most people`s attention instantly.

I mean superman returns prob wouldn`t have made as much money as it did if it wasn`t for people being lured in by the age-old theme. Why would WB when they are desperatly trying to save their franchise throw out the one element audiences have always loved?

[Iceburgeruk]

Yep, Quantum of Solace is the first direct sequel. The Bond franchise has always loosely been in the same continuity, regardless of the actor playing him, hence why the theme has remained to this day.

Except for one film which had what seemed to be the son of a character from dr no.

And from russia with love`s entire plot was driven by the bond killing dr no in the last film.

On her Majesty`s secret service featured bond`s office which had bond riffling through a couple of nik naks each being a memento from one of the previous films.

And one fo the films had bond visiting the grave side of his wife who was killed in On Her Majesty`s secret service. And her death was mentioned in licence to kill.

And they had the redneck cop from Live And Let Die in Man With The Golden Gun.

And the russian gangster type from goldeneye appeared again in the world is not enough.

The main KGB guy appears in a load of the films, and spectre appears in nearly all the early ones.

Basically they are sequels, they have far too many blatant return appearances, connected plot points and recurring characters to be considered loosely connected random films.

Its just like with that new bond book. "The first orginal bond book in about thirty years!!!" Except for all those bond books which came out as official continuations of the Bond franchise after fleming died. The way they blatantly lie to promote their new stuff is kinda annoying.

Besides either way is a loose-loose situation for the Quantum Of Solace publicers. If it isn`t the first direct sequel then it is just another sequel in a long line of sequels. If it is the first sequel, then all the other bond films were stand alone reboots and as such it lessens the impact of Casino Royale, turning it from the first bond reboot into the 20th reboot. Either way damages their arguement.

[MonBeeb]

I still don't see what's so hard about doing a contemporary arrangement of the old theme. A piece of music can be nostalgic and fresh at the same time.

[SatEL]

If we want iconic then the Williams theme is the way to go, then again there is the problem of not letting go of a dead era. I would be up for hearing an advancement on the Donner theme as well as bringing someone new to do some themes e.g. Hans Zimmer.

[RachelDawes]

If we want iconic then the Williams theme is the way to go, then again there is the problem of not letting go of a dead era. I would be up for hearing an advancement on the Donner theme as well as bringing someone new to do some themes e.g. Hans Zimmer.

That's the problem. If you're serious about rebooting Superman you have to shed every aspect of the Donner series, including the theme. Just hire someone new, explain that Superman's theme ought to sound light, inspiring, and heroic, and let him do his own thing.

[DavidTyler]

That's the problem. If you're serious about rebooting Superman you have to shed every aspect of the Donner series, including the theme. Just hire someone new, explain that Superman's theme ought to sound light, inspiring, and heroic, and let him do his own thing.


Light? I don't think so.

Heroic and inspiring definitely.

I'd like a theme that sounds full of energy, speed, and excitement.

[Iceburgeruk]

That's the problem. If you're serious about rebooting Superman you have to shed every aspect of the Donner series, including the theme. Just hire someone new, explain that Superman's theme ought to sound light, inspiring, and heroic, and let him do his own thing.

But it seems pointless. The williams` theme is already firmly attached to superman you would be fighting an uphill struggle to get people to accept a new theme even if it was as good as williams` theme.

Also it seems beside the point as people will always remember the donner films anyway. No matter what you do with the next film people will compare it to the first christopher reeves film. So why bother destroying the theme?

The marketing value alone seems to make the deletion of the theme unlikely. I mean it is so attached to superman (not just the donner films) that it can survive without them. I mean look at the new star trek film, they have pretty much changed everything but one element which seems to strike a chord with many is the use of the classic theme and sound effects in the trailer.

[RachelDawes]

Light? I don't think so.

Heroic and inspiring definitely.

I'd like a theme that sounds full of energy, speed, and excitement.

Light as in the opposite of dark, grim, and brooding. Think of the Batman scores; I want the opposite of those. I'm ITA about the energy, speed, and excitement.

[RachelDawes]

But it seems pointless. The williams` theme is already firmly attached to superman you would be fighting an uphill struggle to get people to accept a new theme even if it was as good as williams` theme.

Also it seems beside the point as people will always remember the donner films anyway. No matter what you do with the next film people will compare it to the first christopher reeves film. So why bother destroying the theme?

The marketing value alone seems to make the deletion of the theme unlikely. I mean it is so attached to superman (not just the donner films) that it can survive without them. I mean look at the new star trek film, they have pretty much changed everything but one element which seems to strike a chord with many is the use of the classic theme and sound effects in the trailer.

I'm not sure that the GA worries too much about scores. If the next Supes movie has a different score, I think they'll only slightly notice. OTOH, changing the score would be a sign to Superman fans and cinemaphiles that this really is a fresh start. Perhaps you're right and the studio would require some form of the Williams theme for marketing purposes, but that wouldn't be my preference.

If I were the director of the next film, I would try to forget that the Donner films existed and start over. I'd rely heavily on the more recent comics and TAS for a storyline. I'd hire the best actors possible and would tell them to interpret the characters however they saw fit and not imitate their Donner forebears. Likewise, I'd hire the best composers, costumers, etc. and have them do what they think is best without reference to what Donner did before. In other words, I would allow my composer freedom to write the best Superman theme he was capable of, one that he felt fit the story. I wouldn't hamstring him by requiring him to redo Williams' score anymore than I would require the new Supes actor to imitate Reeve.

[dark_b]

Light? I don't think so.

Heroic and inspiring definitely.

I'd like a theme that sounds full of energy, speed, and excitement.it depends on the movie. the tone and the story IMO.

i dont think a composer can just throw inside a fast energetic theme.

[JamalYIgle]

Not a good example. The Indiana Jones theme and score were made forthe first incarnation of the franchise, a movie. However, the Superman the movie theme is but one of many themes that have graced the character in it's 70 year history. I think that, as good as Williams theme is, it is part of a movie series that is gone by. Further attachment would only "prove" how you "can't" go on without the theme. New theme.
That is the biggest load of crap I've ever hears. There have been 27 bond movies all using the same theme including Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace. The Indiana jones theme has beeen used for every movie, The Jason theme from Friday the thirteeth, Nightmare on Elm Street, Holloween and all of it's restarts and remakes.Every Star trek property at one point or another uses the Alexander Courage them from the first series. Like those The Superman theme is more a movie score, It's a cutural Icon. not using it, or some version of it for a Superman property just doesn't work.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

That is the biggest load of crap I've ever hears. There have been 27 bond movies all using the same theme including Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace. The Indiana jones theme has beeen used for every movie, The Jason theme from Friday the thirteeth, Nightmare on Elm Street, Holloween and all of it's restarts and remakes.Every Star trek property at one point or another uses the Alexander Courage them from the first series. Like those The Superman theme is more a movie score, It's a cutural Icon. not using it, or some version of it for a Superman property just doesn't work.People said the same thing about the entire Superman movie and look where we are now.

Last time I checked keeping all of the "classic" Donner elements didn't yeld great boxoffice, audience reception or a sequel.

It's a slipperly slope. Lets keep the iconic crystal planet, the bumbling goofball Clark, the underground campy Lex, hell lets keep the old timey special effects because it's so damn timeless and classic and beautiful and will never ever be topped. Lets not throw and damn thing out. Lets just keep hiring Chris Reeve lookalikes and making the same f**king movie over and over again!

[Superark]

People said the same thing about the entire Superman movie and look where we are now.

Last time I checked keeping all of the "classic" Donner elements didn't yeld great boxoffice audience reception or a sequel.

It's a slipperly slope. Lets keep the iconic crystal planet, the bumbling goofball Clark, the underground campy Lex, hell lets keep the old timey special effects because it's so damn timeless and classic and beautiful and will never ever be topped. Lets not throw and damn thing out. Lets just keep hiring Chris Reeve lookalikes and making the same f**king movie over and over again!


Being a tad over-dramatic aren't we Spidey :yay:

The score isn't going to make or break this movie or its BO success, but it is very important(to me) that Superman have a worthy theme.

The Williams score for Superman is a culture/pop icon. That's the reason you hear it at Baseball, football games and all other sporting events. Heck Seinfeld used it in a couple of episodes.

I still remember when John Smoltz threw his 3000 strikeout and they started blaring the Williams Superman theme at Turner Field. That was such a moment, and Smoltzy really seemed like Superman that night!

[solidsnake86]

Its a theme for a series of movies in which 2 were horrible, people need to get over it and move on. They did it with batman (and yes, elfmans theme has been used in far more other media outlets and is still used today) they can do it with superman.

[Mostpowerful]

That is the biggest load of crap I've ever hears. There have been 27 bond movies all using the same theme including Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace. The Indiana jones theme has beeen used for every movie, The Jason theme from Friday the thirteeth, Nightmare on Elm Street, Holloween and all of it's restarts and remakes.Every Star trek property at one point or another uses the Alexander Courage them from the first series. Like those The Superman theme is more a movie score, It's a cutural Icon. not using it, or some version of it for a Superman property just doesn't work.

Perfectly said. :applaud




Being a tad over-dramatic aren't we Spidey :yay:

The score isn't going to make or break this movie or its BO success, but it is very important(to me) that Superman have a worthy theme.

The Williams score for Superman is a culture/pop icon. That's the reason you hear it at Baseball, football games and all other sporting events. Heck Seinfeld used it in a couple of episodes.

I still remember when John Smoltz threw his 3000 strikeout and they started blaring the Williams Superman theme at Turner Field. That was such a moment, and Smoltzy really seemed like Superman that night!

And at slam dunks. Well said, Superark!




People said the same thing about the entire Superman movie and look where we are now.

Last time I checked keeping all of the "classic" Donner elements didn't yeld great boxoffice audience reception or a sequel.

It's a slipperly slope. Lets keep the iconic crystal planet, the bumbling goofball Clark, the underground campy Lex, hell lets keep the old timey special effects because it's so damn timeless and classic and beautiful and will never ever be topped. Lets not throw and damn thing out. Lets just keep hiring Chris Reeve lookalikes and making the same f**king movie over and over again!

That was not the problem, imo. As far as I know, audiences just really wanted to see Superman throw some punches to some baddies and just more action in general; it is only some of the fanboys/girls online who complain that Lexcorp wasn't present, or that wanted Clark to be more like the Dean Cain version, etc. General audiences aren't even aware of those things, and they don't really care. Transformers was really dumb, oh but it had lots of fights and action, and look how it did.



Its a theme for a series of movies in which 2 were horrible, people need to get over it and move on. They did it with batman (and yes, elfmans theme has been used in far more other media outlets and is still used today) they can do it with superman.

And imo, the new Batman scores are forgettable and generic.

[RachelDawes]

Its a theme for a series of movies in which 2 were horrible, people need to get over it and move on. They did it with batman (and yes, elfmans theme has been used in far more other media outlets and is still used today) they can do it with superman.

BFT (Bolded for Truth)

And imo, the new Batman scores are forgettable and generic.

Well I love them. I'll take a new "forgettable and generic" score that fits a film perfectly than a retread any day.

[TheBatman1979]

And imo, the new Batman scores are forgettable and generic.

Well thank you Mozart.

I have a different opinion. I think they suit the scenes and the complexity of the story well without taking away from what is going on in front of you. I also think there's more of an emotional quality to the music, in that it portrays the emotions of the characters depending on the scene. Unlike Elfman's theme which was more uniform to the characters instead of what was actually happening.
:hoboj:

I also think that if you're going to restart Superman that a new score is needed. It's time to change things, start fresh and have a clean slate for the Man of Steel. That means everything from the Donner films goes and we start from scratch.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Being a tad over-dramatic aren't we Spidey :yay:

The score isn't going to make or break this movie or its BO success, but it is very important(to me) that Superman have a worthy theme.

The Williams score for Superman is a culture/pop icon. That's the reason you hear it at Baseball, football games and all other sporting events. Heck Seinfeld used it in a couple of episodes.

I still remember when John Smoltz threw his 3000 strikeout and they started blaring the Williams Superman theme at Turner Field. That was such a moment, and Smoltzy really seemed like Superman that night!

Its a theme for a series of movies in which 2 were horrible, people need to get over it and move on. They did it with batman (and yes, elfmans theme has been used in far more other media outlets and is still used today) they can do it with superman.Snake's response is my response to your post Superark.

Dramatic is how I felt at the time so I went with it.


That was not the problem, imo. As far as I know, audiences just really wanted to see Superman throw some punches to some baddies and just more action in general; it is only some of the fanboys/girls online who complain that Lexcorp wasn't present, or that wanted Clark to be more like the Dean Cain version, etc. General audiences aren't even aware of those things, and they don't really care. Transformers was really dumb, oh but it had lots of fights and action, and look how it did. .Stop bringing up other films, Transformers being bad has no baring on Superman or Superman's boxoffice numbers. Why would a huge company that has been around since before most fanboys were born start giving fanboys/girls 100% control of there bussiness? I'm sure they care somewhat about what the fans want but there main priority is going to be getting the non fan, which makes up 95% of the audience, to the theaters.

Fanboys are not the reason that Bryan Singer looks to be out as director and why Superman looks to be mostly starting over from scratch. It's utterly ridiculous to believe otherwise. Your friends and family worshiping the film doesn't mean that everybody else did. I've said time and time again that I don't think that most people disliked the film as much as myself but I damn sure don't think that the film is as loved as you say it is. The Truth is somewhere in the middle and Supes can't thrive there, which is why WB looks to be starting over.

I don't care that you love the film but you should stop living in a world of make-believe. WB's actions, or inactions if you were, prove that more than nitpicky fanboys had a problem with Superman's Return.


And imo, the new Batman scores are forgettable and generic.

BFT (Bolded for Truth)



Well I love them. I'll take a new "forgettable and generic" score that fits a film perfectly than a retread any day.And RD's response is pretty much my response to the last line in your post MP.

[SatEL]

Snake's response is my response to your post Superark.

Dramatic is how I felt at the time so I went with it.

Stop bringing up other films, Transformers being bad has no baring on Superman or Superman's boxoffice numbers. Why would a huge company that has been around since before most fanboys were born start giving fanboys/girls 100% control of there bussiness? I'm sure they care somewhat about what the fans want but there main priority is going to be getting the non fan, which makes up 95% of the audience, to the theaters.

Fanboys are not the reason that Bryan Singer looks to be out as director and why Superman looks to be mostly starting over from scratch. It's utterly ridiculous to believe otherwise. Your friends and family worshiping the film doesn't mean that everybody else did. I've said time and time again that I don't think that most people disliked the film as much as myself but I damn sure don't think that the film is as loved as you say it is. The Truth is somewhere in the middle and Supes can't thrive there, which is why WB looks to be starting over.

I don't care that you love the film but you should stop living in a world of make-believe. WB's actions, or inactions if you were, prove that more than nitpicky fanboys had a problem with Superman's Return.




And RD's response is pretty much my response to the last line in your post MP.

:applaud:applaud:applaud And on the subject of the General movie viewer, my entire family and friends hated the film using mostpowerful logic what can we deduct from that.

[Mostpowerful]

Snake's response is my response to your post Superark.

Dramatic is how I felt at the time so I went with it.

Stop bringing up other films, Transformers being bad has no baring on Superman or Superman's boxoffice numbers. Why would a huge company that has been around since before most fanboys were born start giving fanboys/girls 100% control of there bussiness? I'm sure they care somewhat about what the fans want but there main priority is going to be getting the non fan, which makes up 95% of the audience, to the theaters.

Fanboys are not the reason that Bryan Singer looks to be out as director and why Superman looks to be mostly starting over from scratch. It's utterly ridiculous to believe otherwise. Your friends and family worshiping the film doesn't mean that everybody else did. I've said time and time again that I don't think that most people disliked the film as much as myself but I damn sure don't think that the film is as loved as you say it is. The Truth is somewhere in the middle and Supes can't thrive there, which is why WB looks to be starting over.

I don't care that you love the film but you should stop living in a world of make-believe. WB's actions, or inactions if you were, prove that more than nitpicky fanboys had a problem with Superman's Return.


.

And I never said otherwise in my post. I did mention 'general audiences'. And yes, most of them just want to be entertained. And it seems that they liked SR but not enough to do go watch it over and over, at least not most of them. And I never said that my family and friends "worship" the movie, now you are being very dramatic, again. :cwink: Oh, and the fact that it took so long for WB to realize they didn't want to make a sequel to the film is proof that the answer wasn't as clean cut as some say.

[Superark]

Superman doesn't deserve "generic and forgettable"


I believe the fact that the Williams score is as popular and well recieved as it is today 30 years later, is a testament to how great and classic it is

[Mostpowerful]

Superman doesn't deserve "generic and forgettable"


I believe the fact that the Williams score is as popular and well recieved as it is today 30 years later, is a testament to how great and classic it is

EXACTLY!

The theme is so iconic and classic that they even play it in churches,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS-WpABq7HA

:word:

[JamalYIgle]

People said the same thing about the entire Superman movie and look where we are now.

Last time I checked keeping all of the "classic" Donner elements didn't yeld great boxoffice, audience reception or a sequel.

It's a slipperly slope. Lets keep the iconic crystal planet, the bumbling goofball Clark, the underground campy Lex, hell lets keep the old timey special effects because it's so damn timeless and classic and beautiful and will never ever be topped. Lets not throw and damn thing out. Lets just keep hiring Chris Reeve lookalikes and making the same f**king movie over and over again!


You do know that we at DC and the Superman books have been embracing it all and incorporating it into the Superman universe. These things are iconic, they aren't going away anytime soon.
We're doing it because of What Donner created and made it so recognizable.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

And I never said otherwise in my post. I did mention 'general audiences'. And yes, most of them just want to be entertained. And it seems that they liked SR but not enough to do go watch it again and again. And I never said that my family and friends "worship" the movie, now you are being very dramatic, again. :cwink: Oh, and the fact that it took so long for WB to realize they didn't want to make a sequel to the film is proof that the answer wasn't as clean cut as some say.I'm sure it wasn't as clean cut as I would like it be. I wasn't being dramatic I was being a b**ch.:cwink:

Superman doesn't deserve "generic and forgettable"


I believe the fact that the Williams score is as popular and well recieved as it is today 30 years later, is a testament to how great and classic it isElfman's was/is pretty huge too. Changing the score didn't seem to hurt Batman Begins or The Dark Knight. I don't see why Superman is any different? You will still have Williams score and people well still listen to it and love it and probably like it more than the new movies score, based on nostalga alone, but that doesn't mean a new awesome score, that signals that this is a new Superman, aint a good idea.

[Mostpowerful]

you do know that we at dc and the superman books have been embracing it all and incorporating it into the superman universe. These things are iconic, they aren't going away anytime soon.
We're doing it because of what donner created and made it so recognizable.

perfectly said! :up::up:

The Donner/Singer Superman universe is the most popular version of Superman around the world, by far.

[Mostpowerful]

I'm sure it wasn't as clean cut as I would like it be. I wasn't being dramatic I was being a b**ch.:cwink:

.

Ah, ok, but I'd never refer to you, or others, that way, it's not my style and it just isn't necessary or nice. :yay:

[solidsnake86]

Superman doesn't deserve "generic and forgettable"


I believe the fact that the Williams score is as popular and well recieved as it is today 30 years later, is a testament to how great and classic it is

Its the only movie theme used so until there is another one it will be associated with it.

Once again, its funny that the beloved williams theme never made it to the animated series or practically any other forms of media unlike elfmans theme. It can be changed, and whats with this mentality that another theme can't be better.

Thank God they probably don't read these boards because sometimes fans have absolutely no imagination. But than again if it was up to most of you, the special effects from STM would still be used today.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

You do know that we at DC and the Superman books have been embracing it all and incorporating it into the Superman universe. These things are iconic, they aren't going away anytime soon.
We're doing it because of What Donner created and made it so recognizable.Whocares that they were iconic??? Alot of people thought that Burton's Batman movies were iconic and now we have new Batman movies that are worlds apart from his. Seriously, whocares?

It's shocking to me how averse some Superman fans are to change. I'm utterly speechless right now.

[JamalYIgle]

Whocares that they were iconic??? Alot of people thought that Burton's Batman movies were iconic and now we have new Batman movies that are worlds apart from his. Seriously, whocares?

It's shocking to me how averse some Superman fans are to change. I'm utterly speechless right now.

There's a difference. The Batman films were driven so far into the ground they reached a level of suck that hadn't been seen since Plan 9 from Outer space. They needed to be rebooted . Superman the Movie and Superman 2 are considered great movies. Although you may not like it there are alot of people who liked SR, myself included.

[JamalYIgle]

Its the only movie theme used so until there is another one it will be associated with it.

Once again, its funny that the beloved williams theme never made it to the animated series or practically any other forms of media unlike elfmans theme.
Untrue, it was used for the Ruby Spears animated series and Smallville. Warner animation at the time couldn't get the rights from the Salkinds for S:TAM or Lois and Clark. That changed whenn nthey started rereleasing the movies.

[Mostpowerful]

I think that change is good a lot of times, but you just don't change what works and what people love. In my perfect world, I wouldn't reboot the franchise since it was a modest hit, imo. I'd do a sequel and just expand this universe by adding new elements from the comics, more action, bring a new and very powerful supervillain to challenge Supes in more ways, including physically and psychologically, etc. This franchise aint broken, it only needed a few tweeks. But it isn't I who makes the calls. If I were a billionaire, I'd make the most awesome sequel ever! :woot: :csad:

[solidsnake86]

There's a difference. The Batman films were driven so far into the ground they reached a level of suck that hadn't been seen since Plan 9 from Outer space. They needed to be rebooted . Superman the Movie and Superman 2 are considered great movies. Although you may not like it there are alot of people who liked SR, myself included.

Okay maybe I'm just delusional here, but the superman 2 that was actually released was nothing to be bragging about. At the end of the day I will say that I'm not going to argue over STM and the Superman 2 that never made it to theatres which people are actually talking about. Its obvious the nostalgia for those movies is through the roof. But don't tell me superman 3 and 4 didnt drive that series into the ground like batmans did. Those movies were awful, and stared reeve. Why do fans go around like those movies never existed.

Jamal is it used for smallville? because i don't actually remember hearing it, unless it was the earlier episodes which I havent seen.

[SatEL]

I think that change is good a lot of times, but you just don't change what works and what people love. In my perfect world, I wouldn't reboot the franchise since it was a modest hit, imo. I'd do a sequel and just expand this universe by adding new elements from the comics, more action, bring a new and very powerful supervillain to challenge Supes in more ways, including physically and psychologically, etc. This franchise aint broken, it only needed a few tweeks. But it isn't I who makes the calls. If I were a billionaire, I'd make the most awesome sequel ever! :woot: :csad:

Well judging from the fact you would invest in a sequel to Returns the chances of you been a billionaire are very slim. A good investor would know that's a no no.:yay:

[JamalYIgle]

Okay maybe I'm just delusional here, but the superman 2 that was actually released was nothing to be bragging about. At the end of the day I will say that I'm not going to argue over STM and the Superman 2 that never made it to theatres which people are actually talking about. Its obvious the nostalgia for those movies is through the roof. But don't tell me superman 3 and 4 didnt drive that series into the ground like batmans did. Those movies were awful, and stared reeve. Why do fans go around like those movies never existed.

Superman 3 is considered a financial hit. However Superman 2 was a monster hit ($108,185,706) in 1981. it was # 1 four weeks in a row and took two months to drop out of the top 10. It was actually # 3 of the top ten grossing movies that year.

[Mostpowerful]

Untrue, it was used for the Ruby Spears animated series and Smallville. Warner animation at the time couldn't get the rights from the Salkinds for S:TAM or Lois and Clark. That changed whenn nthey started rereleasing the movies.

The theme was also used, a little bit, in the episodes of The Batman last year where Supes was a guest star. It was great!



Okay maybe I'm just delusional here, but the superman 2 that was actually released was nothing to be bragging about. At the end of the day I will say that I'm not going to argue over STM and the Superman 2 that never made it to theatres which people are actually talking about. Its obvious the nostalgia for those movies is through the roof. But don't tell me superman 3 and 4 didnt drive that series into the ground like batmans did. Those movies were awful, and stared reeve. Why do fans go around like those movies never existed.

Jamal is it used for smallville? because i don't actually remember hearing it, unless it was the earlier episodes which I havent seen.

I think that the difference is that as far as I know, the first two Supes movies, especially STM is considered a near perfect Superman movie and a real classic by a lot of people, while Batman made some radical changes to the character like the Joker killing Bruce's parents, for instance. It is not considered as faithful to the source material I think.

[JamalYIgle]

Jamal is it used for smallville? because i don't actually remember hearing it, unless it was the earlier episodes which I havent seen.

the Doctor Swan episodes particularly, with Christopher Reeve.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

Okay maybe I'm just delusional here, but the superman 2 that was actually released was nothing to be bragging about. At the end of the day I will say that I'm not going to argue over STM and the Superman 2 that never made it to theatres which people are actually talking about. Its obvious the nostalgia for those movies is through the roof. But don't tell me superman 3 and 4 didnt drive that series into the ground like batmans did. Those movies were awful, and stared reeve. Why do fans go around like those movies never existed.:up: Superman 4 was just as much of a disaster as B&R.

Well judging from the fact you would invest in a sequel to Returns the chances of you been a billionaire are very slim. A good investor would know that's a no no.:yay::funny: You are a grade A jerk and I say that with love.

[solidsnake86]

Oh okay, but the series still doesnt use the STM theme, it has a different one at the end, which I think suits it.



I think that the difference is that as far as I know, the first two Supes movies, especially STM is considered a near perfect Superman movie and a real classic by a lot of people, while Batman made some radical changes to the character like the Joker killing Bruce's parents, for instance. It is not considered as faithful to the source material I think.

By this mentality than, the original batman movie with adam west would be near perfect because it didnt make any radical changes. STM was also in 78 and frankly there have been new things introduced in the comics that I would love to see in an origin film that can be improved upon from STM. Thats what some of us are trying to get at. Donner himself would improve upon given the chance, and he did with zod in the comics. Personally I'm interested in Geoff Johns' take because he is excellent and taking the better elements.

The score is the score, if you changed it the only ones who would notice are us, especially given that were discussing it, lol. I just think some of you overstate its importance.

[TheBatman1979]

Okay maybe I'm just delusional here, but the superman 2 that was actually released was nothing to be bragging about. At the end of the day I will say that I'm not going to argue over STM and the Superman 2 that never made it to theatres which people are actually talking about. Its obvious the nostalgia for those movies is through the roof. But don't tell me superman 3 and 4 didnt drive that series into the ground like batmans did. Those movies were awful, and stared reeve. Why do fans go around like those movies never existed.

Jamal is it used for smallville? because i don't actually remember hearing it, unless it was the earlier episodes which I havent seen.

Two can play that game....

I do not know of this Batman Forever and Batman and Robin that you speak of. Surely if these atrocities had been comitted the man responsible would be dragged into the open street and flogged for all to see. There are only 4 modern Batman Films Batman, Batman Returns, Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. A pox upon those who speak the blasphemy that is this Joel Schumacher.:woot:

[SatEL]

:funny: You are a grade A jerk and I say that with love.

*Note to self* New years resolution: Must stop been a "grade A Jerk".:yay:

[solidsnake86]

Two can play that game....

I do not know of this Batman Forever and Batman and Robin that you speak of. Surely if these atrocities had been comitted the man responsible would be dragged into the open street and flogged for all to see. There are only 4 modern Batman Films Batman, Batman Returns, Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. A pox upon those who speak the blasphemy that is this Joel Schumacher.:woot:

You know what the funny part about Batman forever and batman and robin is. They helped create this new series and you almost have to be greatful they existed. I really hope superman finds there nolan because you have to admit, the guy had the balls to re-use the joker which people thought was definitively portrayed by nicholson.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

*Note to self* New years resolution: Must stop been a "grade A Jerk".:yay:lol I should have said sometimes. Hell, I'm a jerk to sometimes and most of the time I don't apoligize for it.

[Mostpowerful]

Oh okay, but the series still doesnt use the STM theme, it has a different one at the end, which I think suits it.



By this mentality than, the original batman movie with adam west would be near perfect because it didnt make any radical changes. STM was also in 78 and frankly there have been new things introduced in the comics that I would love to see in an origin film that can be improved upon from STM. Thats what some of us are trying to get at. Donner himself would improve upon given the chance, and he did with zod in the comics. Personally I'm interested in Geoff Johns' take because he is excellent and taking the better elements.

The score is the score, if you changed it the only ones who would notice are us, especially given that were discussing it, lol. I just think some of you overstate its importance.

I absolutely disagree. I think that LOTS of people in the mainstream would notice the absence of the William's theme in a Superman movie, including critics, who I'm 100% sure would mention it in their reviews everywhere. Look, I'm not saying that the W. theme has to be the only music used in the entire film, but it should be there in some capacity. It is that iconic to Supes, like the James Bond theme is to him.

And on the new Secret Origin by Johns, yes, I'm looking forward to it. Hope it's really good and that they don't do another origin story in a looong time, please.

[solidsnake86]

Is it necessary to bring critics up in every one of your posts, who cares what they say, they're people and its an opinion. Your allowed to just give yours without reinforcing it with critics, this isn't an essay, its a message board.

Difference with james bond, 22 films, not 5

[TheBatman1979]

Superman 3 is considered a financial hit. However Superman 2 was a monster hit ($108,185,706) in 1981. it was # 1 four weeks in a row and took two months to drop out of the top 10. It was actually # 3 of the top ten grossing movies that year.

Well let's see which franchise tanked worse in the sequel department shall we.

Superman II - Budget 54 mil./ US Gross 108 mil.
Batman Returns - Budget 80 mil./ US Gross 162 mil.

Superman III - Budget N/A/ US Gross 60 Mil.
Batman Forever - Budget 100mil./ US Gross 184 mil.

Superman IV - Budget 17 mil./ US Gross 15 mil.
Batman and Robin - Budget 125 mil./ US Gross 107 mil.

Hmmm.... Seems like they both sucked wind over the last two films.

[Superark]

Its the only movie theme used so until there is another one it will be associated with it.

Once again, its funny that the beloved williams theme never made it to the animated series or practically any other forms of media unlike elfmans theme. It can be changed, and whats with this mentality that another theme can't be better.

Thank God they probably don't read these boards because sometimes fans have absolutely no imagination. But than again if it was up to most of you, the special effects from STM would still be used today.

I love how when someone thinks that certain aspects of the Superman universe should be kept they lack imagination.

Whocares that they were iconic??? Alot of people thought that Burton's Batman movies were iconic and now we have new Batman movies that are worlds apart from his. Seriously, whocares?

It's shocking to me how averse some Superman fans are to change. I'm utterly speechless right now.


The Elfman theme was dropped after Batman Returns and we had a completely new theme in the last two movies. The Elfman theme, which I love, did not have longevity. So its not like the change came first with Nolan's movies. People were already use to the changing theme which makes it harder for people to identify it as that character's theme.

The Williams theme remained in all of the films, even after Donner left, Unlike the first series of Batman films. It was easiers to accept Hans Zimmer's theme(which I do really like) b/c they were changed long before. Like it or not, b/c there wasn't another Superman movie for 20 years, that theme became even more identifiable with Supes. SR only cemented that fact when Singer chose to use it in 2006.
Plus, as much as I love Elfman's score, I dont think it would have worked in Nolan's films. Elfman's theme had this fantastical element to it, which would not have felt right since Nolan's Batman was so grounded in reality.

Personally I can't ever see a Superman film being made that the Williams Main March cannot work or seem out of place.

Also one final note, I am not totally opposed to change. I don't feel like everything has to stay the same. By that same line of thought, I don't feel everything needs to neccessarily be thrown away. I welcome any change that stays true to the character. Whatever works for Superman should be used in the next film, be it aspects from the comics, animated series, Chris Reeve films, television shows, Fleischer, or anything else. The Williams theme is as much a part of the mythos as anything else.

It's cliché, but if it aint broke don't fix it.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

No offense, but I think that what you say is a load of crap.

I have seen very little proof that you or any of the other Donner obsessed fans are open to changes. Whenever somebody suggests changes all I ever read is "Well Donner's movie is a classic and the best comicbook movie ever, why change that? it is perfect as issss"

Seriously, if you feel that no changes are needed it, just say so. You are intitled to your opinion. Hell, I openly and often say that I want Superman to lose the undies and I get heat for it but I going to continue to say it because it's my opinon and I feel passionate about that issue. As passionate as you should and can feel about such a silly thing. lol

I'm firmly on the side of chucking everything Donner and letting somebody Batman Begins this B**ch and you seem to just want a bigger /S/ shield so we aint ever going to agree on this matter...I honestly don't know why I keep discussing it.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

There's a difference. The Batman films were driven so far into the ground they reached a level of suck that hadn't been seen since Plan 9 from Outer space. They needed to be rebooted . Superman the Movie and Superman 2 are considered great movies. Although you may not like it there are alot of people who liked SR, myself included.

Couldnt have said it better myself :up:

Although I will say, IF they do re-boot, I now hope they go the origin route. But I would MUCH prefer an SR sequel.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

No offense, but I think that what you say is a load of crap.

I have seen very little proof that you or any of the other Donner obsessed fans are open to changes. Whenever somebody suggests changes all I ever read is "Well Donner's movie is a classic and the best comicbook movie ever, why change that? it is perfect as issss"

Seriously, if you feel that no changes are needed it, just say so. You are intitled to your opinion. Hell, I openly and often say that I want Superman to lose the undies and I get heat for it but I going to continue to say it because it's my opinon and I feel passionate about that issue. As passionate as you should and can feel about such a silly thing. lol

I'm firmly on the side of chucking everything Donner and letting somebody Batman Begins this B**ch and you seem to just want a bigger /S/ shield so we aint ever going to agree on this matter...I honestly don't know why I keep talking discussing it.

To be fair ISS, I am not the biggest fan of the Donner movie either, in fact I find it over-rated and pretty average. BUT, it they do 'Batman Begins' it, as you suggest, a lot of stuff from the Donner movie would inevitably remain.

[I SEE SPIDEY]

To be fair ISS, I am not the biggest fan of the Donner movie either, in fact I find it over-rated and pretty average. BUT, it they do 'Batman Begins' it, as you suggest, a lot of stuff from the Donner movie would inevitably remain.I don't remember even thinking about Batman during Batman Begins. I disagree with your assessment.

I'm also confused how somebody can love Superman Returns and not atleast have a extreme fondness for Superman.:huh:

[Superark]

No offense, but I think that what you say is a load of crap.

I have seen very little proof that you or any of the other Donner obsessed fans are open to changes. Whenever somebody suggests changes all I ever read is "Well Donner's movie is a classic and the best comicbook movie ever, why change that? it is perfect as issss"

Seriously, if you feel that no changes are needed it, just say so. You are intitled to your opinion. Hell, I openly and often say that I want Superman to lose the undies and I get heat for it but I going to continue to say it because it's my opinon and I feel passionate about that issue. As passionate as you should and can feel about such a silly thing. lol

I'm firmly on the side of chucking everything Donner and letting somebody Batman Begins this B**ch and you seem to just want a bigger /S/ shield so we aint ever going to agree on this matter...I honestly don't know why I keep discussing it.


No offense taken.

Yes you're right, I do think Donner's movie is a classic. Thanks for pointing that out! :yay:

Yes I loved SR and am disappointed that there isn't going to be a sequel, since I was interested in what Singer was going to do going forward. But that doesn't mean I don't wanna see anything new brought to the table.

But things are what they are right now. There isn't going to be a sequel and we are either going to get a complete reboot complete with origin or some kind of movie where Superman already exists.

And I'm fine with that. I accept that is the direction WB wants to go in. As long they make a good Superman film, than I'm a happy camper. I'm very interested to see what they do with the project.

I'm not going to constantly complain and moan if they don't use certain elements I wanna see. By no means do I think they need to keep everything the same if they are "reintroducing" the character. If they are going to make everything the same, then they might as well make a sequel.

I'm simply stating that I feel the Williams score is something that could be kept and in my POV isn't something that is limited to the Donner films. If it isn't kept, oh well. I hope the new theme is something special and I will keep an open mind.

Like I've said before, I think any good elements from the Superman mythos can and should be used in the next film, no matter where the came from.

I'm a Superman fan. I hope the new film is a great one, no matter what direction they take.

With all due respect, I'm not going to refuse to see it because WB decided to go in a direction I wasn't hoping for. I will buy a ticket and watch it before I make my final judgement.

[RachelDawes]

Superman doesn't deserve "generic and forgettable"

I used the phrase "generic and forgettable" sarcastically. I don't think the Batman scores have been either. Like I said, I love them and TheBatman1979's post on the previous page explains why.

Anyway, like the Nolan Batman movies, I want a score that's been tailor-made for the new film. I don't want a Superman theme that was inspired by Reeve; I want one that is inspired by Brandon Routh, or whoever next plays Supes. Basically what I'm saying is, when the next director hires a composer, let the guy freaking compose. We'll always have the old Superman theme. No one can take that away from us. I just want something new, too.

[RachelDawes]

I absolutely disagree. I think that LOTS of people in the mainstream would notice the absence of the William's theme in a Superman movie, including critics, who I'm 100% sure would mention it in their reviews everywhere. Look, I'm not saying that the W. theme has to be the only music used in the entire film, but it should be there in some capacity. It is that iconic to Supes, like the James Bond theme is to him.

People would notice and comment on it, but they'd swiftly get over it unless the new score were a total disaster. BTW, the next theme will likely sound a bit like Williams' score just because Superman is an uplifting, inspiring, heroic character who will always get an uplifting, inspiring, heroic theme.

Difference with james bond, 22 films, not 5

Plus, I don't think James Bond has ever had another theme song. It's become a tradition. Superman existed long before STM and continues to exist so he has had many different theme songs throughout his career onscreen.

[solidsnake86]

There are some thing that really you could keep from donners movies that I wouldnt care for. The fortress being crystals, thats fine, doesnt mean you have to make the whole planet out of crystals, it could be a mix. The crystals will most likely remain given thats how its being presented across the board now in comics and other media. What do you actually keep from donners films that almost doesnt have to be updated in some way shape or form?

The bumbling clark to the extent they did it was annoying and draws attention to clark, its like he was trying to show that he's not superman. One thing that lois and clark, stas, and smallville (as far as im concerned smallville is more or less superman now) do better.

Keeping the essence of STM the movie is fine, but things like lex luthor need to be changed. You can take a different approach to how things play out, heck you dont even have to kill pa kent off in the first one. At the end we are arguing about a theme.

I refuse to believe the elfman theme doesnt have longevity superark because if it didnt it wouldnt be in video games to this day. The changing of the theme after returns was to set a new tone because they felt the series was too dark and parents were pissed after Batman returns. Thats what I believe me and ISS are arguing about. Its not so much the williams theme as it is to show a different direction in a series which once again has basically 2.5 movie that people feel were good.

[JamalYIgle]

Well let's see which franchise tanked worse in the sequel department shall we.

Superman II - Budget 54 mil./ US Gross 108 mil.
Batman Returns - Budget 80 mil./ US Gross 162 mil.

Superman III - Budget N/A/ US Gross 60 Mil.
Batman Forever - Budget 100mil./ US Gross 184 mil.

Superman IV - Budget 17 mil./ US Gross 15 mil.
Batman and Robin - Budget 125 mil./ US Gross 107 mil.

Hmmm.... Seems like they both sucked wind over the last two films.

Actually Superman 3 had a very inexpensive budget and made enough on the video sales market to warrant a sequel, so yeah it made money. the difference is that there are people out there who liked Superman #. Nobody liked Batman and Robin

[NeoRanger]

^^ The toy stores did. They loved it.

[SatEL]

Nolan is such an idiot someone should have told him Batman already has his own iconic theme. FXMB5KNYgMw

[TheBatman1979]

Actually Superman 3 had a very inexpensive budget and made enough on the video sales market to warrant a sequel, so yeah it made money. the difference is that there are people out there who liked Superman #. Nobody liked Batman and Robin

You're comparing Superman 3 to the fourth Batman film. You should be comparing it to Batman Forever, which still has it's supporters and was Financially a sound movie for the studio. If you want to compare then compare Superman IV to Batman and Robin since both are the fourth and final movie and also out of both atrocities neither made over the budget for the film.

See how that works, I even outlined it for you and you still tried to twist the numbers.

Almost politician like.:oldrazz:

[I SEE SPIDEY]

You're comparing Superman 3 to the fourth Batman film. You should be comparing it to Batman Forever, which still has it's supporters and was Financially a sound movie for the studio. If you want to compare then compare Superman IV to Batman and Robin since both are the fourth and final movie and also out of both atrocities neither made over the budget for the film.

See how that works, I even outlined it for you and you still tried to twist the numbers.

Almost politician like.:oldrazz:Exactly. Compare one fourth film to the other, it's not rocket science.:whatever:

[solidsnake86]

you know this thread is going downhill when people start saying superman 3 and 4 are better than Batman forever and Batman and Robin.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I don't remember even thinking about Batman during Batman Begins. I disagree with your assessment.

Well thats funny, I remember thinking about Batman a lot during BB :yay:. And i'm not jking.

I'm also confused how somebody can love Superman Returns and not atleast have a extreme fondness for Superman.:huh:

Superman:The Movie, was good for its time, but I can barely take it seriously anymore, I only just bought it on DVD the other day because it was extremely cheap. I just find that SR works just as well as a stand-alone story as it does a semi-sequel to STM, I simply filled in most of the blanks myself. But even now, watching them back to back, I find I enjoy SR SO much more, for me it updates STM and betters almost everything it did.

[Mostpowerful]

you know this thread is going downhill when people start saying superman 3 and 4 are better than Batman forever and Batman and Robin.

Love is blind. :woot:

Having just watched B and R a last weekend for the first time ever, I think Supes 4 and B and R are on par overall; yeah, B and R is that bad, imo. But to be fair, B and R has great production values, though, that's all.

I haven't seen BF so I can't say. And Supes 3 has some very decent scenes, the flying is pretty good, and Reeve looks his best.





Superman:The Movie, was good for its time, but I can barely take it seriously anymore, I only just bought it on DVD the other day because it was extremely cheap. I just find that SR works just as well as a stand-alone story as it does a semi-sequel to STM, I simply filled in most of the blanks myself. But even now, watching them back to back, I find I enjoy SR SO much more, for me it updates STM and betters almost everything it did.

Agreed.

But I still think STM is a great movie, there is a lot in it that I enjoy so much. But it's overrated by a lot of people, imo. The film is really good but is not perfect. I honestly think that the nostalgia and their love for Reeve, who I also love and respect, blinds them. It is understandable in a way. He was their hero growing up. He became this untouchable god.

All in all, STM is still the best superhero origin movie to me.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Agreed.

But I still think STM is a great movie, there is a lot in it that I enjoy so much. But it's overrated by a lot of people, imo. The film is really good but is not perfect. I honestly think that the nostalgia and their love for Reeve, who I also love and respect, blinds them. It is understandable in a way. He was their hero growing up. He became this untouchable god.

All in all, STM is still the best superhero origin movie to me.

Reeve is brilliant in the movie, and Kidder and Hackman are good with what they are given, but IMO the movie is just so slow and plodding.

NO weat near the best origin movie for, I could name at least 5 that I consider much better.

[Brian Braddock]

There are some thing that really you could keep from donners movies that I wouldnt care for. The fortress being crystals, thats fine, doesnt mean you have to make the whole planet out of crystals, it could be a mix. The crystals will most likely remain given thats how its being presented across the board now in comics and other media. What do you actually keep from donners films that almost doesnt have to be updated in some way shape or form?

The bumbling clark to the extent they did it was annoying and draws attention to clark, its like he was trying to show that he's not superman. One thing that lois and clark, stas, and smallville (as far as im concerned smallville is more or less superman now) do better.

Keeping the essence of STM the movie is fine, but things like lex luthor need to be changed. You can take a different approach to how things play out, heck you dont even have to kill pa kent off in the first one. At the end we are arguing about a theme.

I refuse to believe the elfman theme doesnt have longevity superark because if it didnt it wouldnt be in video games to this day. The changing of the theme after returns was to set a new tone because they felt the series was too dark and parents were pissed after Batman returns. Thats what I believe me and ISS are arguing about. Its not so much the williams theme as it is to show a different direction in a series which once again has basically 2.5 movie that people feel were good.

To be honest - he's clearly trying to show he's not Superman.

Let's not forget that we have the benefit of knowing that Superman and Clark Kent are one is the same; the majority of folk in the movies and comics probably dont even think Supes has a secret identity - given that he doesnt hide his face.

If anything, it's a 'reverse disguise' - and one that isnt that great tbh.

It's like he knows that wearing the glasses as well as the change of hair and posture arent really going to fool anyone therfore he acts like a dork so that a person would look at him and think 'well, he looks like Superman but there's no way Superman would trip over his own shoelace like that'.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

To be honest - he's clearly trying to show he's not Superman.

Let's not forget that we have the benefit of knowing that Superman and Clark Kent are one is the same; the majority of folk in the movies and comics probably dont even think Supes has a secret identity - given that he doesnt hide his face.

If anything, it's a 'reverse disguise' - and one that isnt that great tbh.

It's like he knows that wearing the glasses as well as the change of hair and posture arent really going to fool anyone therfore he acts like a dork so that a person would look at him and think 'well, he looks like Superman but there's no way Superman would trip over his own shoelace like that'.


:up: Although I preferred Routh's Clark as he wasnt so obvious with it and could fade into the background more easily.

[VenomsMom]

You're comparing Superman 3 to the fourth Batman film. You should be comparing it to Batman Forever, which still has it's supporters and was Financially a sound movie for the studio. If you want to compare then compare Superman IV to Batman and Robin since both are the fourth and final movie and also out of both atrocities neither made over the budget for the film.

See how that works, I even outlined it for you and you still tried to twist the numbers.

Almost politician like.:oldrazz:
Richard Pryor deserved an oscar for his brilliant portrayal of Gus Gorman. The man got top billing over Reeves for cryin out loud. Thankyou Salkinds for the classic that was Superman3.

[JamalYIgle]

Exactly. Compare one fourth film to the other, it's not rocket science.:whatever:

really, You want to go there with me on this because you'd lose the argument.

[DavidTyler]

really, You want to go there with me on this because you'd lose the argument.

what argument? Which film should be compared to which film?

It's all opinion, Jamal.

You can have a disagreement over it but one person's opinion doesn't outweigh anothers... Right, wrong, or otherwise.. everyone's entitled to an opinon.

Myself, I would compare B&R to S4 just on the principle that they're both pretty bad and 4th movies but I can see where some would compare it to the Gus Gorman (S3) tragedy because both are intended to be campy. S4 was campy by accident - poor writing - but S3 was intentionally designed to be a Richard Prior vehicle.

BTW, aren't you supposed to be working?(Me - I'm using up some use or lose. ) Are you logging in from the DC offices? Just curious

[solidsnake86]

To be honest - he's clearly trying to show he's not Superman.

Let's not forget that we have the benefit of knowing that Superman and Clark Kent are one is the same; the majority of folk in the movies and comics probably dont even think Supes has a secret identity - given that he doesnt hide his face.

If anything, it's a 'reverse disguise' - and one that isnt that great tbh.

It's like he knows that wearing the glasses as well as the change of hair and posture arent really going to fool anyone therfore he acts like a dork so that a person would look at him and think 'well, he looks like Superman but there's no way Superman would trip over his own shoelace like that'.

The thing is, nobody acts like that. In SR I think they played it off as more clumsy which I like. In STM they just made him dumb and naive. Once again, maybe in the 70's you could go with that but it needs some updating. The way I see it, nobody would think superman is clark because frankly why would a guy with those powers dress up as a human. So by clark blending in he doesnt have to worry about being discovered. When you do it to the extent that STM it becomes a bit to much. I also, IMO of course, don't think many people actually want to see clark like that anymore.

[Superark]

The thing is, nobody acts like that. In SR I think they played it off as more clumsy which I like. In STM they just made him dumb and naive. Once again, maybe in the 70's you could go with that but it needs some updating. The way I see it, nobody would think superman is clark because frankly why would a guy with those powers dress up as a human. So by clark blending in he doesnt have to worry about being discovered. When you do it to the extent that STM it becomes a bit to much. I also, IMO of course, don't think many people actually want to see clark like that anymore.


Good point Snake! I also think that in the 70's Clark's character worked better as a total goof, but not in today's society. But obviously Clark cannot be totally straight laced either like he was in Lois and Clark.

I still believe Christopher Reeve's concept behind Clark Kent is genius. You need to do something to seperate the two characters. But it cannot be done in the over-the-top manner that Reeve did anymore.

What Routh did is, IMO, the best way to go. He had a good balance. As you said Snake, clumsy, but not tripping over himself. Keep himself in the background a lot more.

[RachelDawes]

Good point Snake! I also think that in the 70's Clark's character worked better as a total goof, but not in today's society. But obviously Clark cannot be totally straight laced either like he was in Lois and Clark.

I still believe Christopher Reeve's concept behind Clark Kent is genius. You need to do something to seperate the two characters. But it cannot be done in the over-the-top manner that Reeve did anymore.

What Routh did is, IMO, the best way to go. He had a good balance. As you said Snake, clumsy, but not tripping over himself. Keep himself in the background a lot more.

I wonder if future directors are going to have Clark come into the foreground a bit more. You know, have him break a big story. In that case, will the clumsiness have to make a comeback to throw people off the trail? Then again, a clumsy dope wouldn't make a very good reporter...

[AnorexicBatman]

Now I have a lot of respect for John Williams but his Superman score today feels as tired and old as the Donner films themselves. If people really wanted a modern Superman with modern look then the Williams theme must go

I think that "Kryptonite" by 3 Doors Down would be a wonderful way to introduce a modern and "bad ass" Superman. However, considering the beat of the song the movie itself should also be action packed and have a good pace

I may be wrong about the song itself but how many people agree with that the reboot will definitely need a new score, something that's a bit fast and strong. Just like the man himself...

SR made Superman seem too boring in my opinion. We need something that makes us feel like he is a vengeful god amongst mortals not Jesus Christ reborn

[Mostpowerful]

Now I have a lot of respect for John Williams but his Superman score today feels as tired and old as the Donner films themselves. If people really wanted a modern Superman with modern look then the Williams theme must go

I think that "Kryptonite" by 3 Doors Down would be a wonderful way to introduce a modern and "bad ass" Superman. However, considering the beat of the song the movie itself should also be action packed and have a good pace

I may be wrong about the song itself but how many people agree with that the reboot will definitely need a new score, something that's a bit fast and strong. Just like the man himself...

SR made Superman seem too boring in my opinion. We need something that makes us feel like he is a vengeful god amongst mortals not Jesus Christ reborn

:huh:

This is what a wrote in the other thread in my reply to your post:

I think you really DON'T get the character at all. And yes, Superman is very much like Jesus. He is a saviour figure. It's all over the comics as well. Oh, and the scores for TDK and IM aren't that good, IMO. They may fit those movies, but they are as generic as it gets. But that's me. The William's Superman theme is ICONIC, classic and simply amazing. I REALLY doubt anything could top it or do more justice to this character.

[Jochimus]

Now I have a lot of respect for John Williams but his Superman score today feels as tired and old as the Donner films themselves. If people really wanted a modern Superman with modern look then the Williams theme must go

I think that "Kryptonite" by 3 Doors Down would be a wonderful way to introduce a modern and "bad ass" Superman. However, considering the beat of the song the movie itself should also be action packed and have a good pace

I may be wrong about the song itself but how many people agree with that the reboot will definitely need a new score, something that's a bit fast and strong. Just like the man himself...

SR made Superman seem too boring in my opinion. We need something that makes us feel like he is a vengeful god amongst mortals not Jesus Christ reborn

You may as well make him pasty and depowered in a black suit with a dagger S-shield, while you're at it...:whatever:

Failing Williams' iconic score, I say hand it over to James Horner. If he can get the music into a vibe somewhere between Star Trek II and The Rocketeer, that should suffice, IMO.

[StorminNorman]

Actually Superman 3 had a very inexpensive budget and made enough on the video sales market to warrant a sequel, so yeah it made money. the difference is that there are people out there who liked Superman #. Nobody liked Batman and Robin

I like Batman and Robin.

[NeoRanger]

And yes, Superman is very much like Jesus.
No, he's not. And it's not all over the comics.

But he's not a vengeful god either. Not until someone *really* pisses him off anyway and I have no desire to go there for a new film.

[Mostpowerful]

I like Batman and Robin.

But you don't like STM?? :huh: ok

[StorminNorman]

But you don't like STM?? :huh: ok

Superman The Movie has a major identity problem. Its straight face except for its villain.

Batman and Robin is a ridiculous and stupid camp fest throughout - its consistent.

Don't get me wrong, its still a bad bad movie - but it has entertainment value.

[AnorexicBatman]

Posted By Mostpowerful

This is what a wrote in the other thread in my reply to your post:

I think you really DON'T get the character at all. And yes, Superman is very much like Jesus. He is a saviour figure. It's all over the comics as well. Oh, and the scores for TDK and IM aren't that good, IMO. They may fit those movies, but they are as generic as it gets. But that's me. The William's Superman theme is ICONIC, classic and simply amazing. I REALLY doubt anything could top it or do more justice to this character.

That thread is now closed. I get the character and he is literally that in the comics. The Clark Kent persona was created for the sole purpose of hiding his true identity while Superman has always been described and written as a god amongst mortals.

Also, how can you say the scores for TDK and IM are generic.
TDK especially has a rather rousing theme and the tone reminds be of both the Batman TAS theme and the Tim Burton's Batman one (Danny Elfman?)

I was also particularly surprised how well the Iron Man instrumental worked, it had a techno feel to it and felt appropriate.

Posted By Jochimus

You may as well make him pasty and depowered in a black suit with a dagger S-shield, while you're at it...

Failing Williams' iconic score, I say hand it over to James Horner. If he can get the music into a vibe somewhere between Star Trek II and The Rocketeer, that should suffice, IMO.

hahaha! EMO Superman... I get it....
But c'mon! How does that song sound emo or anything like it?
Hell they don't even have to use it! I just think the song suits the character!
Not every Superman theme has to sound mournful or patriotic

Posted By Neo Ranger

Quote:
And yes, Superman is very much like Jesus.
No, he's not. And it's not all over the comics.

But he's not a vengeful god either. Not until someone *really* pisses him off anyway and I have no desire to go there for a new film.

Exactly. The Donner verse has done more damage than people like to admit

[Mostpowerful]

Superman The Movie has a major identity problem. Its straight face except for its villain.

Batman and Robin is a ridiculous and stupid camp fest throughout - its consistent.

Don't get me wrong, its still a bad bad movie - but it has entertainment value.

I see. I guess I was not entertained by B&R in any way the one and only time I've watched it (a week ago). It was more like a very painful experience. I felt bad that they did that to Batman. The only thing I 'liked' was the production values, set designs...yeah, it looked cool.

And I agree that STM is not perfect (it is a product of its time, but it doesn't quite work the same way nowdays); the campy villains and some plot holes ruin part of the film for me, however, there is a lot in it that is so good that make me love it. Donner definitely got the character and his essense right, imo. STM is far superior to B&R in any way shape or form, to me. So, let's agree to disagree. :yay:

[El Payaso]

Superman The Movie has a major identity problem. Its straight face except for its villain.

Batman and Robin is a ridiculous and stupid camp fest throughout - its consistent.

I can't believe you stripped the concept "consistency" of all possible value. :csad:

Don't get me wrong, its still a bad bad movie - but it has entertainment value.

And now you did the same with the concept "entertainment." :csad::csad::csad:

[BH/HHH]

If Singer continues, the Williams Theme will stay. Besides, I can't imagine other Theme for Superman. Is just perfect.IMO

:up:

I think its the one theme you cant get rid of. Batmans wasnt as iconic as this, people just hear the music and straight away they think Superman. I hope the Williams Theme lives on.

[Jochimus]

Batmans wasnt as iconic as this

At least not from the movies, anyway...I can't begin to count how many times I've heard someone break into a "Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na" everytime Batman is brought up, and that ain't even on the same playing field as Williams' score.

[BH/HHH]

At least not from the movies, anyway...I can't begin to count how many times I've heard someone break into a "Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na" everytime Batman is brought up, and that ain't even on the same playing field as Williams' score.

Didnt think of that, good point :up:

[DavidTyler]

Bottom line is this: by refusing to accept the possibility of someone writing a new score, you rob yourself of the opportunity to have a new favourite theme.

Horror of horrors... you might even like it better than the Williams theme.

[dude love]

If there was no Williams Theme...

If this happens, I will fly to Hollywood in my steel toe work boots and repeatedly kick whoever is involved with that decision in the nuts until they are no longer technically male.

Gonna be a lot harder if the decision was made by a female though.

[jak123]

Jerry Goldsmith would have been my ideal choice, but sadly he's not with us anymore. My second choice is James Newton Howard.

[Webhead2006]

well if the next film is routh film then yea continue to use the williams score for the film. But if we get a new take on the man of steel then we should get a new theme that fits what ever the new take on superman will be.

[\S/JcDc\S/]

Superman The Movie has a major identity problem. Its straight face except for its villain.

Batman and Robin is a ridiculous and stupid camp fest throughout - its consistent.

Don't get me wrong, its still a bad bad movie - but it has entertainment value.

I think STM was better than to be expected for a SH movie in its time. However now that we've seen continued modernization in this genre, clearly STM is just outdated. This is not just special effects as they were GREAT for the time. More so it is the pacing of the story, and level of humor/camp that is acceptable. These days you can't have a box office smash for a SH movie unless it completes the balancing act very well (ie: IM&TDK)

[RachelDawes]

well if the next film is routh film then yea continue to use the williams score for the film. But if we get a new take on the man of steel then we should get a new theme that fits what ever the new take on superman will be.

That's how I see it.

[El Payaso]

well if the next film is routh film then yea continue to use the williams score for the film. But if we get a new take on the man of steel then we should get a new theme that fits what ever the new take on superman will be.

Oh, absolutely.

I think STM was better than to be expected for a SH movie in its time. However now that we've seen continued modernization in this genre, clearly STM is just outdated. This is not just special effects as they were GREAT for the time. More so it is the pacing of the story, and level of humor/camp that is acceptable. These days you can't have a box office smash for a SH movie unless it completes the balancing act very well (ie: IM&TDK)

I have to disagree. Special effects are now more complex but far from being perfect. In many modern superhero movies you still can see the hero loooking like an animated plastic figure. The pace of Batman Begins before Batman comes to the screen is even more dragged than in STM and the crappy humour swarms about movies like Spiderman 1, 2 and 3, Fantastic Four, The Incredible Hulk and even Batman begins.

[Mostpowerful]

Good luck for the composer doing a new theme for Superman on film.

[Webhead2006]

YEa i agree mostpowerful trying to live up to williams classic score. But i bet there is tons of composers out there who could make something just as great.

[smooth3006]

i love the superman theme, can't imagine it not being in a movie. honestly i fully expect to hear it when we first see tom welling in the suit on the last smallville show too. :applaud

[daywalker2007]

I've said it before and i'll say it again, if you want a composer to come up with a new theme that will blow your socks off, then they have to get Vangelis.

That guy actually watches each scene over and over again and then creates the music as it comes to him in his head. The guy is a living genius.

Just listen to his 1492 score or more recently his Alexander score, quite stunning work!

[Nightwing1977]

As I said before in the past, they should always keep Williams's theme. Even if they try something new with a different composer, it just won't feel like how a Superman theme should sound compare to Williams. It too iconic to change it.

[Webhead2006]

yea it would be nice to be kept but if they want to make the next film totally different they should have a new sound to supes.

[dark_b]

fans are making williams superman music to big. its not like general public would be angry or sad.

[Webhead2006]

yea its a classic no doubt but times are different and any new superman film not assoicated with the donnor setting should be a different sound.

[solidsnake86]

fans are making williams superman music to big. its not like general public would be angry or sad.

I'm glad someone said it. I'm also glad Davidtyler made his comment too, you might actually like it better. Its a movie score and I can't believe people are this die hard about it.

[Daredevil_2003]

I say bring in a new theme. As a hardcore Batman fan (I love Supes, too, which is why I come here) I thought the Elfman score and it's BTAS derivative were the end all of Batman themes...till I saw Begins and TDK.

It's infinitely better. It fits the character (particularly the tone of the modern comics and films) much better and by it's lonesome is just more Batman-ish. The two-note brass alone is more iconic, IMO, then anything done before. It's Batman.

Now, I love the William's theme to death, much more than the Elfman Batman stuff, and I'm as weary as some that if they do something new it will pale in comparison, but after TDK I'm up for a change because the new composer(s) have the potential to really nail it.

This strong resistance to any kind of change has really damaged the character. Anything, even if it's a good idea like ditching the undies, gets such a poor reception from most people. The general public does care a lot more than you people might think, a friend of mine is just as adamant about the character as anyone here, just because she's not schooled till the cows come home in the mythos doesn't make her or anyone else less of a fan or irrevelant. The care and love for these characters goes far beyond the bitter nerds that seem to comprise 75% of internet forums.

But anyway, change to Superman illicits a bad response from most and downright viscious backlash from the hardcore fans. Moreso than I've seen with any other property.

To steal a quote from Morpheus, "Free your mind." people...Superman needs to be made badass and relevant again. As he is now, even in the comics to an extent, he comes off as old-fashioned and nostalgic in a very bad way. Superman needs a revamp.

A big one.

And the score is no exception.

If it ain't broke don't fix it is a great line but, and I'm sorry to break it to some of you, it is broke. And it needs a lot of work.

[Webhead2006]

very good points man.

[JamalYIgle]

Sorry but the Bond Film anaolgy stands. they revamped the character, kept the theme.

The Williams Score should be the same. in fat if it were up to me I'd pay John Williams whatever he wanted to come back and score the new movie.