The Amazing Spider-Man

[iloveclones]

And yet whatever you intended, those phrases utterly failed to show that people only care for Peter's welfare in all this, because you yourself admit that those are all things that husbands and wives should do.

Maybe you should have taken Debate?


Maybe you should take Following a Converstion 101. I never said such a thing. Stovokor did. Not that I don't believe that. But if you're going to get all snarky and defensive, maybe you can try to attribute the things people say, to the people who actually say them.

And the reason, in your opinion, that I "failed to show it" is because people on the internet don't debate. They stand there like little children insisting that they're right. So really, nothing you say will crack it. That's not debating. That's adolescence.

[J. J. Jameson]

Well, theoretically, they were married up until OMD, and after that, they don't remember that... what they do remember is that Peter and/or MJ walked away from the altar, yet they remained a couple afterwards... hence why the stories that we've read still happened as we've read them with the exception that Pete & MJ are "not" married.

In theory, the stories are not invalidated, but everybody's memories of them have been "tweaked".

Okay, that makes...sense, kinda. But I think it makes a lot more sense if they would have just said "Magic makes them not married anymore and they don't remember that they were once married" (Well, at least everyone but MJ doesn't remember...). As lame as that sounds, it just makes more sense...and requires no alteration of the Spidey-history. Which would make some people...less enraged.

[Kitsune]

Of course... just look at your avatar... :oldrazz: :oldrazz: :oldrazz:

:yay:

What are you, dense? Are you retarded or something? Its a Goddamn KITSUNE


:grin::oldrazz::oldrazz:

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I don't know... if the story is as described, then Peter had MJ at home to worry about, MJ did heal his bruises and bandaged him up, etc... those events still happened, just not as a married couple.

Thats a pretty big if.So far we really cant tell how long they stayed together after the day they were soposed to get married.

If they did indead have a simular relationship but just no marriage then many of the things I've been complaining about wont apply.

And then at least I could be a bit more conferable with the change in history.

But so far it seems like they werent together long so all the character growth he gained while married [or in a committed relationship] seems to be lost.


As clonesy put it, I'm aware that people want to put a bigger stamp on the [cue the music] sanctity of mawwiage between man and woman [/cue the music] (there's my "Life of Brian" impression), but that's not always the case... Peter is a selfless caring person, and there's no reason to think that he wouldn't be worried about MJ whenever he was in battle, akin to how he would worry about Gwen when he was in battle back in the day.

I can't figure out why peoplw just can't see that without getting all "holier-than-thou" about mawwiage.

:huh:

I know I've been useing the word "Marriage" in my debate a lot but to me its not really an issue of the marriage itself.

Its the fact that he was in a committed relationship which both Pete and MJ valued and seemed to think would go on forever.

When your in a committed relationship with someone you dont want to lose under any circumstances then every choice you make is effected by the very thought of them and how the choices will effect them.

They were married they just magically don't remember that they were married.

Its a hell of a lot more then just that.

If all it is was a forgetting spell then Pete would still have organic web shooters and the other weird powers and Harry would still be dead.

There was a change in history on top of the fogeting spell.

Well, theoretically, they were married up until OMD, and after that, they don't remember that... what they do remember is that Peter and/or MJ walked away from the altar, yet they remained a couple afterwards... hence why the stories that we've read still happened as we've read them with the exception that Pete & MJ are "not" married.

In theory, the stories are not invalidated, but everybody's memories of them have been "tweaked".

That theory is in fault.

As I said before..... if the only change is a "tweaking" of some memories then Pete would still have those additional powers and Harry would still have died.

History was changed you cant deny it.

[BlackLantern]

They way I figure it, and it seemed fairly common sense was that when Mephisto undid their marriage, he undid things (decisions and actions) that the marriage affected....if MJ wasn't Petes' wife....Harry, as the Goblin, wouldn't have kidnapped her....so on and so forth....

[Kitsune]

Harry would still be dead.
Harry is dead, he just forgot that he was dead.... he takes after his father that way.

[spideyboy_1111]

They way I figure it, and it seemed fairly common sense was that when Mephisto undid their marriage, he undid things (decisions and actions) that the marriage affected....if MJ wasn't Petes' wife....Harry, as the Goblin, wouldn't have kidnapped her....so on and so forth....

which to me, still doesn't make alot of sense, because the way the BND lovers seem to describe it is "they still dated, and the events still happened" well... married or not, harry would still be going after MJ, whether he was just his live in girlfriend, or wife... ud get the same outcome.

[BlackLantern]

From what I've gleaned....Pete and MJ did date, Pete did propose and someone got left at the altar and that was the end of it......so anything after that time period seems to have been affected....also the intangible is whatever MJ whispered to Mephisto (which Mephisto seemed to agree with)

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

They way I figure it, and it seemed fairly common sense was that when Mephisto undid their marriage, he undid things (decisions and actions) that the marriage affected....if MJ wasn't Petes' wife....Harry, as the Goblin, wouldn't have kidnapped her....so on and so forth....

And why would that happen????

If the story is as suggested and they were still a couple living together then Harry as the Goblin would have kidnapped MJ for the same reasons he did when they were married.....to hurt Pete.

And even if what your saying is the case [even thou it makes no sence at all] how many other things could have been changed just because they werent married????

The Venom sage,Kraven the Hunter,Maximum Clonage.....these were all stories that events and the choices Pete made were heavily influenced by his Relationship with MJ.

For the most part thats all changed now.

Harry is dead, he just forgot that he was dead.... he takes after his father that way.

That post was confusing.

[Kitsune]

That post was confusing.
What's confusing about "he forgot he was dead?"

[Omega Wizard]

When does the AQnti Venom arch start again?

[TheCorpulent1]

From what I've gleaned....Pete and MJ did date, Pete did propose and someone got left at the altar and that was the end of it......so anything after that time period seems to have been affected....also the intangible is whatever MJ whispered to Mephisto (which Mephisto seemed to agree with)
I thought they were still a couple for the entire time they were married, they just weren't actually married anymore. 'Cause, really, if MJ and Peter broke up at the altar, that changes a lot of their history since they would likely not want to be anywhere near each other for a good, long time after that, meaning all of the stuff from their marriage would now have happened to a single Peter, which makes no sense.

[DoomJester]

Well, something did happen at the alter, Joe Q said, more than once-- though I don't remember any specific interview-- that they failed to pull the trigger on the wedding day... so that means something happened at the altar, but it doesn't really mean that they'd never want to be with each other. They could've both realized that getting married would've been a bad idea. It's possible at least.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

What's confusing about "he forgot he was dead?"

Because you said he "IS" dead.

Harry is dead, he just forgot that he was dead.... he takes after his father that way.

How can he forget that he "WAS" dead if he "IS" dead.

"IS" is a verb used to describe the current nature of a person, place or thing.

As in Tommy is 12 years old.

"WAS" is a verb used to describe the past tense nature of a person ,place or thing.

As in Tommy was 12 years old.

In your sentence the IS cancels out the WAS.

So if Harry "IS" dead then theres nothing for him to be forgetting because he is dead.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, something did happen at the alter, Joe Q said, more than once-- though I don't remember any specific interview-- that they failed to pull the trigger on the wedding day... so that means something happened at the altar, but it doesn't really mean that they'd never want to be with each other. They could've both realized that getting married would've been a bad idea. It's possible at least.
That still doesn't make sense to me. How many couples stay together after they make it to the altar and then call it off? There's a long stretch of time post-wedding that Peter and MJ were together for pre-OMD. If the relationship took a step back at the altar, it seems pretty ridiculous that they'd just stick together after that in a monogamous relationship for years--essentially exactly what a marriage would've been in the first place--and then only recently break up for good.

[DoomJester]

Hey, I don't know. I'm just saying that to the best of my knowledge, this is what Joe Q said. Even if doesn't make sense Who would make a deal with someone who wants to be the devil (we don't know if he exists in the MU right?)? Doesn't make sense... chewbacca... wookies-- doesn't make sense but these things happen.

And lots of people do live together without being married. And again, Peter and MJ didn't do this. Remember that. They didn't do this. They were married and everything occured as we read it. None of that was changed. Mephisto changed what people thought happened. He lied even to MJ and Peter. And he brought Harry back, but everything you read happened just as you read it. The issue is the credibility of Mephisto's revisionist history.

[TheCorpulent1]

... and why none of the characters have the sense to question anything the way we do, I suppose.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

And lots of people do live together without being married..

Not normally after one leaves the other waiting at the alter.

Thats almost always a relationship killer.

Altho both parties do sometimes get back to gether after a good while.

But I have to admit thats my opinion from what I've seen happen to friends.

[DoomJester]

Why though? You thought it happened that way. I mean, from our perspective, it seems quite forced, but from an insider perspective there would be no reason to assume that the questions needed asking. Pete and MJ made some poor decisions is what Wolverine would say.

[Themanofbat]

That still doesn't make sense to me. How many couples stay together after they make it to the altar and then call it off? There's a long stretch of time post-wedding that Peter and MJ were together for pre-OMD. If the relationship took a step back at the altar, it seems pretty ridiculous that they'd just stick together after that in a monogamous relationship for years--essentially exactly what a marriage would've been in the first place--and then only recently break up for good.

And that is exactly what happened... someone walked away from the altar, yet continued to date up until OMD (that is what "their" memories of it are)... something made them break up at the end of OMD, and we know that about 4 months passed from OMD to the begining of BND (approx. 100 days as stated in ASM #546)...

There is going to be a One-Shot written by my third favorite ASM scribe EVER... Roger Stern, that will describe to the readers what happened on that fateful "wedding day" which will probably help explain why they stayed together after the fact.

:yay:

[J. J. Jameson]

There is going to be a One-Shot written by my third favorite ASM scribe EVER... Roger Stern, that will describe to the readers what happened on that fateful "wedding day" which will probably help explain why they stayed together after the fact.

:yay:

Honestly though, I don't know if I should be rejoicing about all this or laughing uncontrollably at the absolute ridiculousness of it.

One thing I respect about you TMOB, you always stay rock-solid on your opinions, regardless of the mob that sometimes disagrees with you.

[TheCorpulent1]

And that is exactly what happened... someone walked away from the altar, yet continued to date up until OMD (that is what "their" memories of it are)... something made them break up at the end of OMD, and we know that about 4 months passed from OMD to the begining of BND (approx. 100 days as stated in ASM #546)...

There is going to be a One-Shot written by my third favorite ASM scribe EVER... Roger Stern, that will describe to the readers what happened on that fateful "wedding day" which will probably help explain why they stayed together after the fact.

:yay:
Except that Joe Q still said there's a year between OMD and BND. Didn't the 100 days comment only apply to how long Spider-Man's been off the scene. That doesn't necessarily mean it covers the entire time between OMD and BND.

[DoomJester]

One year? Jeez... does that mean they are going to have to retcon some more? I mean, I like BND, but I'm really doubtful that anything that occurs will make OMD make sense. I mean, if they can just keep us looking forward they will succeed, but to have to look back and see the sting of OMD in the distance is a political error.

[TheCorpulent1]

I doubt anyone who's still reading ASM at this point is going to get bent out of shape if they refer back to OMD at all. The people still reading are the ones who are either dedicated enough to the character that they want to read about him regardless, or the people who jumped on with the injection of ridiculously awesome talent for BND and don't care about OMD, or the people who hate the comic but are dumb enough to keep buying so they can have ammo to lob at those who love the new direction. Either way, those people are probably all going to keep buying regardless of mentions of OMD.

[javi1024]

I doubt anyone who's still reading ASM at this point is going to get bent out of shape if they refer back to OMD at all. The people still reading are the ones who are either dedicated enough to the character that they want to read about him regardless, or the people who jumped on with the injection of ridiculously awesome talent for BND and don't care about OMD, or the people who hate the comic but are dumb enough to keep buying so they can have ammo to lob at those who love the new direction. Either way, those people are probably all going to keep buying regardless of mentions of OMD.
i didnt know there were so many different ASM readers. :oldrazz:

[TheCorpulent1]

Oh yeah, it attracts a very diverse audience. :)

[DoomJester]

Yeah, well, I'll be buying it, I'm enjoying ASM; I'm enjoying that I'm current with Spidey, but really, I'd rather they just keep quiet about OMD, at least as much as they can-- just my feeling. I mean, if Pete is doing his thing that's all good, but don't remind me that MJ made a deal with Mephisto, at least, don't pretend that it was at all an intelligent plot decision.

[TheCorpulent1]

You mean MJ and Peter made a deal with Mephisto. Not mentioning Peter doesn't absolve him of his part in that stupid plot decision. ;)

[DoomJester]

Yeah... I see what you're saying, but with Peter, there will always be that doubt-- what would he have done? I think it was very purposeful that MJ jumped the gun with mephisto. Cause while we can argue about it, it can't be stated 100% that Spidey made a deal with mephisto, even though he was certainly party to it.

[BlackLantern]

makes me wonder why MJ jumped the gun like that???

[Themanofbat]

Honestly though, I don't know if I should be rejoicing about all this or laughing uncontrollably at the absolute ridiculousness of it.

One thing I respect about you TMOB, you always stay rock-solid on your opinions, regardless of the mob that sometimes disagrees with you.

Thanks...

:yay:

[DoomJester]

I honestly believe it was solely so that we couldnt say spiderman made a deal with an arch-demon. It is strange way of washing his hands of it.

[Themanofbat]

Except that Joe Q still said there's a year between OMD and BND. Didn't the 100 days comment only apply to how long Spider-Man's been off the scene. That doesn't necessarily mean it covers the entire time between OMD and BND.

I still believe that JQ meant that all questions/answers would be revealed between 12 to 18 months time as opposed to having 12 to 18 months passed between OMD & BND...

The former makes much more sense, and when I read that interview, that's what I initially got out of it...

:huh: :huh: :huh:

:csad:

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, and I'm still totally mystified as to how you got that because it's not at all what he said...
Yeah... I see what you're saying, but with Peter, there will always be that doubt-- what would he have done? I think it was very purposeful that MJ jumped the gun with mephisto. Cause while we can argue about it, it can't be stated 100% that Spidey made a deal with mephisto, even though he was certainly party to it.
But... he did make the deal with Mephisto. We know he did because Mephisto didn't actually do anything until Peter agreed to it.

[BlackLantern]

MJ was forceful that he agree to it though....in any case, I prefer MJ with the curly red hair as opposed to the Romita look....which I find boring

[DoomJester]

Yeah, and I'm still totally mystified as to how you got that because it's not at all what he said...

But... he did make the deal with Mephisto. We know he did because Mephisto didn't actually do anything until Peter agreed to it.

Oh... well I missed that part. Thanks for the correction. Well, then, you know... I mean, you know. It's magic.

I bet it wasn't even MJ at all, it was Mephisto posing as MJ.

[Kitsune]

Oh... well I missed that part. Thanks for the correction. Well, then, you know... I mean, you know. It's magic.

I bet it wasn't even MJ at all, it was Mephisto posing as MJ.
It was a Skrull...

[Spider-Gamer]

It was a Skrull...

"I'm a Skrull." Maybe that's what she whispered to Mephisto. Haha, I kid I kid! I hope...

[kguillou]

Doesnt the fact that MJ still potentially remembers everything mean that technically OMD isn't over yet? I mean if MJ still remembers everything, then isn't it inevitable that she'll tell Peter one day? And then whats going to happen? Peter's gonna believe that he's been living a lie all this time, and then we're right back to the clone saga. ugh.

[TheCorpulent1]

Presumably Mephisto would've put something in place to prevent or counter that. I mean, if we're assuming he's not a total retard.

[fifthfiend]

There is going to be a One-Shot written by my third favorite ASM scribe EVER... Roger Stern, that will describe to the readers what happened on that fateful "wedding day" which will probably help explain why they stayed together after the fact.

:yay:

Don't you mean what didn't happen on their wedding day, because nothing actually happened any differently because OMD isn't a retcon?

[BlackLantern]

I'm just curious as to who left who and why.....

[Kitsune]

Presumably Mephisto would've put something in place to prevent or counter that. I mean, if we're assuming he's not a total retard.
He can only be as smart as the people writing him...

[Themanofbat]

Don't you mean what didn't happen on their wedding day, because nothing actually happened any differently because OMD isn't a retcon?

Well obviously we now know what "didn't happen", but something happened to make what once happened not happen.

At least, in the minds of those that were there when it once happened.

:yay:

:huh: :huh: :huh:

[TheCorpulent1]

Don't you mean what didn't happen on their wedding day, because nothing actually happened any differently because OMD isn't a retcon?
Well obviously we now know what "didn't happen", but something happened to make what once happened not happen.

At least, in the minds of those that were there when it once happened.

:yay:

:huh: :huh: :huh:
Even if OMD has utterly ruined Spider-Man for many people, I have to admit, it's a lot of fun to ridicule. :up:

[JackBauer]

Even if OMD has utterly ruined Spider-Man for many people, I have to admit, it's a lot of fun to ridicule. :up:

It'd be more fun if it wasn't so damn easy...

[venom892]

Presumably Mephisto would've put something in place to prevent or counter that. I mean, if we're assuming he's not a total retard.I still don't get why this guy who is a ruler of his own dimension would even take interest in the marriage of one couple.That in itself is retarded.

[TheCorpulent1]

Their love is a super-special love that can make God weep or something.

Yeah, it's retarded.

[Arach Knight]

He is a being that represents pure evil in the Marvel Universe. Much like his "son" Blackheart and other demons of their order, they have a lustful joy for other's misery. He doesn't need any motivation other than the fact that he gets to bring something to ruin. That isn't shallow or sloppy. That's just the existing nature of the character. We have to remember that he did not literally wipe the marriage from existence. He just wiped it from the minds of everyone. Part of the marriage lives on in Peter and MJ's heart, that ways Mephisto can feed upon the misery in their hearts that continues to thrive on an ignored love.

It isn't the greatest barter for Mephisto, but not all literary deals with the devil must be of an extreme Faustian nature. As for the marriage...I am not anti-marriage. But I never cared for it to any capacity. It's presence or absence has roughly the same weight in my perspective. I am however still bothered by the nature of the transgression in question. Having such an iconic character make deals with the devil still seems uncalled for and uncharacteristic. But otuside of that one qualm, I find that the book is just as enjoyable, if not more.

[DoomJester]

I think I get what you are saying, and I think there is a lot of truth to it. But while I could be out of line for speaking for Corp, and Venom, I think they may be coming at it from the angle of "why now?" And even if they aren't, I'll come from that angle. Why did Mephisto take interest in the marriage as opposed to any other time? Given all the time he had, why all of a sudden show up? I mean, Peter and MJ have been at the end of their ropes plenty of times, so why now? Why not the Fantastic Four's marriage?

I couldn't hold it against you if you don't answer it, since it is basically all speculation, but it does seem strange that here he comes and instead of fighting the bad guy, they make a deal with him. I mean, can Batman make a deal with his rogues? Can he make a deal with the Joker?

[fifthfiend]

Well obviously we now know what "didn't happen", but something happened to make what once happened not happen.

Except that it didn't not happen, because it all still happened.

At least, in the minds of those that were there when it once happened.

You mean when it still happened, because all of that happened.

Cause OMD's not a retcon.

[fifthfiend]

Can he make a deal with the Joker?

He could but it'd be like making a deal with Loki. Joker'd agree and sign on the dotted line and cross his heart swear to die and then five minutes later he'd try to carve your eye out with a broken beer bottle. And then when you point out that section 2 paragraph 4 of your agreement specifically states "no carving my eye out with a broken beer bottle" he'd say well yeah, that's the whole joke!

[Themanofbat]

I think I get what you are saying, and I think there is a lot of truth to it. But while I could be out of line for speaking for Corp, and Venom, I think they may be coming at it from the angle of "why now?" And even if they aren't, I'll come from that angle. Why did Mephisto take interest in the marriage as opposed to any other time? Given all the time he had, why all of a sudden show up? I mean, Peter and MJ have been at the end of their ropes plenty of times, so why now? Why not the Fantastic Four's marriage?

Why now?

Because Peter had been pushed to limits that he had never endured before, and he said in his mind that he would do "anything" to make it all go away... ding, ding, ding, that was the doorbell to Mephisto's house.

Peter and MJ had been in some tight spots before, but never one this huge that would make Peter want to make it all go away.

And I don't believe that Reed and Sue "love" each other as much as Peter and MJ did... my apologies to all FF fans.

:yay:

[Themanofbat]

Except that it didn't not happen, because it all still happened.

Of course it happened, but something happened to make everyone believe what once happened didn't happen, but we all know it happened at one point, and everyone is now made to think that it didn't happen, yet it still happened, in spite of what everyone now believes didn't happen.

:yay:

[Norman Osborn]

Of course it happened, but something happened to make everyone believe what once happened didn't happen, but we all know it happened at one point, and everyone is now made to think that it didn't happen, yet it still happened, in spite of what everyone now believes didn't happen.

:yay:

:huh:...so uhmm.....anyone reading Nova?? :up: :woot:

[Anubis]

Yup. :up: Waaaaaayyyy better than this s**t.

[Blader5489]

Guardians is better.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Except that it didn't not happen, because it all still happened.

And even if it all still happened theres no point since the characters involved dont remember it.

You mean when it still happened, because all of that happened.

Cause OMD's not a retcon.

Then what do you call it then????

The results were the same.History has been changed.

[Norman Osborn]

Guardians is better.

Guardians of the Galaxy?....better than Nova?.....don't get me wrong I liked the first two issues a lot but for me it's a little early on to compare it with Nova, a title that's been hitting homerun after homerun for 14 issues now!...

[BlackLantern]

I've never gotten into the space comics....Nova, Guardians....just never did anything for me...aren't we on like our twelfth Nova at this point.....

[Darthphere]

Um, no.

[BlackLantern]

I know there have been at least 2 or three and I thought the mantle shifted every so often

[Themanofbat]

:huh:...so uhmm.....anyone reading Nova?? :up: :woot:

That's ok... I was confused as well... :woot:

:csad:

[Norman Osborn]

I've never gotten into the space comics....Nova, Guardians....just never did anything for me...aren't we on like our twelfth Nova at this point.....

Don't really know, never bothered with Nova as a character at all till the original Annhilation series; now he's one of my current top 5 characters!!

[BlackLantern]

Nova has a funny helmet....

[Anubis]

I know there have been at least 2 or three and I thought the mantle shifted every so often


No, that's Green Lantern. Nova's been Richard Rider all this time. There was another character named Nova, who was johnny's andriod girlfriend and herald to Galactis, but that's a completely different character. Though I can see how you could make that mistake.

[BlackLantern]

wasn't there a Nova Corps at one time....each star system had a Nova

[Norman Osborn]

wasn't there a Nova Corps at one time....each star system had a Nova

The Nova Corps was destroyed during the original Annihilation series....Rider is the lone surviving Nova Corps Centurion......I don't think the Nova comics were ever based on any individual Corps member other than Rider but I could be mistaken

[Anubis]

Nope, but a few have appeared in his stories from time to time. There has never been, at least not for a significant amount of time, another nova that has been the center of any Marvel comic called "Nova" or "Man Called Nova" Or "Kid Nova". Once again, that's a GL thing. Which Nova is basically a rip of, but, what isn't a rip of something else? The whole, Nova Corps is destroyed things been done several times before, but never down to the last man like recently.

[fifthfiend]

Nova right now is like everything that was good about Kyle Rayner minus everything that kind of sucked about him plus a bunch of things that make Nova even more awesome.

[Anubis]

Pretty much.

[fifthfiend]

Case in point: When Nova decides to tap some green-skinned-girl ass, she's hotter, more interesting, and not totally annoying as ****.

...I mean she's still a huge ****, but she's pretty upfront about that, so you can't really fault here there.

[imdaly]

No, that's Green Lantern. Nova's been Richard Rider all this time. There was another character named Nova, who was johnny's andriod girlfriend and herald to Galactis, but that's a completely different character. Though I can see how you could make that mistake.

Waitwaitwait....

Nova's name is Richard Rider?!?!

As in Dick Rider??!!

:wow: Whoa. I never knew really anything about Nova...especially his real name! Wow...mean parents. :word:

[Anubis]

Yeah, his parents are jerks.

[javi1024]

ever since i saw Nova in his (i guess) relaunch with Annihilation hes caught my interest. his new look is just awesome:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e199/javi1024/Nova1adigranov.jpg
but i haven't been able to bring myself to pick up an issue cuz im not crazy about the space stuff. i always hated it whenever the X-Men went off planet. plus i always think of New Warriors when i see him and never liked/respected them.

[J. J. Jameson]

Um, no.

Dude, it seriously scares me how you just pop up and say crap like that and then you're gone.

:up:

[Anubis]

Well, he's supposed to be in Space, the X-Men aren't. So, it's not like he's all out of place like they were, he's in his element.

And the New Warriors are dead. You don't have to respect them.

[BrianWilly]

ever since i saw Nova in his (i guess) relaunch with Annihilation hes caught my interest. his new look is just awesome:
but i haven't been able to bring myself to pick up an issue cuz im not crazy about the space stuff. i always hated it whenever the X-Men went off planet. plus i always think of New Warriors when i see him and never liked/respected them.
You really should read Annihilation, if you haven't yet. I used to be weary of space stuff as well, but it's much harder complain about it when it is bar none the single best material that Marvel has printed in the last five years.

[TheCorpulent1]

Best event, certainly. :up:
No, that's Green Lantern. Nova's been Richard Rider all this time. There was another character named Nova, who was johnny's andriod girlfriend and herald to Galactis, but that's a completely different character. Though I can see how you could make that mistake.
Frankie Raye wasn't an android. She was a normal human girl before becoming a herald. I think you may be confusing her with Air-Walker, who was a herald, died, and was brought back in an android body. Coincidentally, Air-Walker was once a member of the Nova Corps, along with pre-herald Firelord.
wasn't there a Nova Corps at one time....each star system had a Nova
I don't think every star system had their own Nova Centurion, or that they divided the galaxy in sectors the same way the GL Corps does. They were initially just the military force for Xandar (hence their other name, the Xandarian StarCorps). But Xandar expanded them into a galaxy-wide police force, which isn't really as authoritarian as it sounds because, as we're seeing in Nova's series right now, other races actually respected and appreciated the assistance of the Nova Corps. Instead of sectors, I think they basically treated the entire Andromeda galaxy and bits of the Milky Way (including Earth) as part of one precinct. They'd just have all their Centurions patrol those areas, and if they needed more Centurions in one area, they'd send them there. It wasn't as rigidly jurisdictional as the GL Corps.

[Anubis]

Best event, certainly. :up:

Frankie Raye wasn't an android. She was a normal human girl before becoming a herald. I think you may be confusing her with Air-Walker, who was a herald, died, and was brought back in an android body. Coincidentally, Air-Walker was once a member of the Nova Corps, along with pre-herald Firelord.

Actually, there's more to it than that. She wasn't an android, but she had her powers before she became Galactus' herald. Her Step Father was Phinease Horton, creator of the original Human Torch, and she got doused with chemicals or something when she was a kid and gained fire powers, but this scared the s**t outta her so she created a mental block, which presented itself as a fear of fire. Eventually she got over it thanks to Johnny and was kinda an unofficial member of the FF until she volunteered to be Galactus' Herald. She already had powers, Big Purple just made em more powerful.

I don't think every star system had their own Nova Centurion, or that they divided the galaxy in sectors the same way the GL Corps does. They were initially just the military force for Xandar (hence their other name, the Xandarian StarCorps). But Xandar expanded them into a galaxy-wide police force, which isn't really as authoritarian as it sounds because, as we're seeing in Nova's series right now, other races actually respected and appreciated the assistance of the Nova Corps. Instead of sectors, I think they basically treated the entire Andromeda galaxy and bits of the Milky Way (including Earth) as part of one precinct. They'd just have all their Centurions patrol those areas, and if they needed more Centurions in one area, they'd send them there. It wasn't as rigidly jurisdictional as the GL Corps.

Yup they were just Galaxy wide, not universal.

[TheCorpulent1]

When did all that stuff about Frankie get revealed? Weird.

[spideyboy_1111]

When did all that stuff about Frankie get revealed? Weird.

like forever ago...

[Anubis]

Like, when she was first created way back during Byrne's run on FF.

[Arach Knight]

I'm basically doing Marvel's job (which they are not tending to), but here is a rundown of how OMD works. In order to understand this event, we have to hold a brief retrospective of similar Marvel events.

-Age of the Apocalypse: Here is an alternate timeline that only Bishop was aware of. Since he exists outside of time, he is able to have a greater observation of the universe in relation to temporal oddities. Even though to every other Marvel charcter, Age of Apocalypse nevere happened, in the mind of Lucas Bishop, Age of Apocalypse did occur, even though every other time line says that the continuity never happened.

-House of M: Now House of M took things a step further. Here is an alternate reality that was fabricated. While Age of Apocalypse was the result of Professor X's premature death (thus giving an offshoot timeline that was thought to be wiped away), House of M occured merely because Wanda willed it. She gave everyone their greatest desire. The difference, is that when it was resolved, evereyone still remembered it "happened" even though in a more general sense, it did not happen/was undone.

OMD functions the same way. Spider-Man was married to MJ. He had all of those fantastic adventures that you worry will invalidate your comic collections. The difference is that Mephisto has altered perception more than reality (other than resurrecting Harry. Most likely MJ's wish, so that Peter would have a friend again, since his only friend was basically MJ). Things happened still, they are just absent in mind, so that it seems as if things occured differently. Otherwise, how else could Mephisto have said that part of their old love would exist in their hearts, unknown to their minds? Now keep in mind that this is my explaination. Marvel could come and Eff things up (and we know they have and can). But this is what I have concluded based on general observations of the Marvel Universe and similar past events.

[BlackLantern]

I'm basically doing Marvel's job (which they are not tending to), but here is a rundown of how OMD works. In order to understand this event, we have to hold a brief retrospective of similar Marvel events.

-Age of the Apocalypse: Here is an alternate timeline that only Bishop was aware of. Since he exists outside of time, he is able to have a greater observation of the universe in relation to temporal oddities. Even though to every other Marvel charcter, Age of Apocalypse nevere happened, in the mind of Lucas Bishop, Age of Apocalypse did occur, even though every other time line says that the continuity never happened.

-House of M: Now House of M took things a step further. Here is an alternate reality that was fabricated. While Age of Apocalypse was the result of Professor X's premature death (thus giving an offshoot timeline that was thought to be wiped away), House of M occured merely because Wanda willed it. She gave everyone their greatest desire. The difference, is that when it was resolved, evereyone still remembered it "happened" even though in a more general sense, it did not happen/was undone.

OMD functions the same way. Spider-Man was married to MJ. He had all of those fantastic adventures that you worry will invalidate your comic collections. The difference is that Mephisto has altered perception more than reality (other than resurrecting Harry. Most likely MJ's wish, so that Peter would have a friend again, since his only friend was basically MJ). Things happened still, they are just absent in mind, so that it seems as if things occured differently. Otherwise, how else could Mephisto have said that part of their old love would exist in their hearts, unknown to their minds? Now keep in mind that this is my explaination. Marvel could come and Eff things up (and we know they have and can). But this is what I have concluded based on general observations of the Marvel Universe and similar past events.

I think you might be in some sort of creative writing denial....but I appreciate the effort:yay:

[fifthfiend]

I'm basically doing Marvel's job (which they are not tending to), but here is a rundown of how OMD works. In order to understand this event, we have to hold a brief retrospective of similar Marvel events.

-Age of the Apocalypse: Here is an alternate timeline that only Bishop was aware of. Since he exists outside of time, he is able to have a greater observation of the universe in relation to temporal oddities. Even though to every other Marvel charcter, Age of Apocalypse nevere happened, in the mind of Lucas Bishop, Age of Apocalypse did occur, even though every other time line says that the continuity never happened.

-House of M: Now House of M took things a step further. Here is an alternate reality that was fabricated. While Age of Apocalypse was the result of Professor X's premature death (thus giving an offshoot timeline that was thought to be wiped away), House of M occured merely because Wanda willed it. She gave everyone their greatest desire. The difference, is that when it was resolved, evereyone still remembered it "happened" even though in a more general sense, it did not happen/was undone.

OMD functions the same way. Spider-Man was married to MJ. He had all of those fantastic adventures that you worry will invalidate your comic collections. The difference is that Mephisto has altered perception more than reality (other than resurrecting Harry. Most likely MJ's wish, so that Peter would have a friend again, since his only friend was basically MJ). Things happened still, they are just absent in mind, so that it seems as if things occured differently. Otherwise, how else could Mephisto have said that part of their old love would exist in their hearts, unknown to their minds? Now keep in mind that this is my explaination. Marvel could come and Eff things up (and we know they have and can). But this is what I have concluded based on general observations of the Marvel Universe and similar past events.

OMD doesn't function at all the same way as those other things.

[venom892]

Beginning with the fact OMD/BND is more permanent then those stories.

[Arach Knight]

1)That's why I said it would be my reasoning behind the matter, based on observation. It doesn't necessarily reflect the route Marvel will take or has attempted to take. it is better than introducing some other variable that could further blow up in Marvel's face. I recently applied to be an editorial intern at Marvel, but i don't think i'm going to get the position. Had I been accepted, first on my to do list, would have been the creation of an improved archives department that actually categorizes events. That ways the Marvel U can actually have more cohesion and less randomness.

The way I see it, my reasoning at least links the causes to previous (and thus demonstrable) events. Sadly, I do not work for Marvel and unless they read this thread and rip off my idea and initiative, they will likely continue to have a problematic continuity. Yes my idea is "creative writing" but at least it is within the bounds of what has been shown and said and not as random as...oh I dunno, Superboy Prime retcon punches. Quite possibly the lamest thing to have been turned into printed and distributed script, in the history of modern comic books.

2)Actually, unless you have some other conflicting concept to introduce, I already clearly stated how the events are similar in structure. They are not similar in function and I would not make that allusion. This is an attempt to undo something specific, where as Age of Apocalypse and House of M were merely stories being told. But it still remains that there are several constants that exist in all three stories..

-Reality and/or time is altered from a previously existing timeline

-Someone or some thing continues to remain aware of the previous time line and/or reality.

-Said reality does not cease to exist when the status quo returns, as much as said reality is not remembered by the participants, when things return to the status quo.

Now I point you to Age of Apocalypse, when evereybody thought Bishop was crazy. He knew that all of the adventures he remembered, did happen with the X-Men. Just not in that current split of time/reality. Like wise, this is obviously the only way OMD could function as an occurence.

1)Mephisto specifically mentioned keeping the old love existent in Mary Jane and Peter's hearts, that ways they would cry out for one another, even though their minds would perceive their love to not have ever reached that full potential. This allows Peter and MJ to live suffering, even though they are not aware of it on any concious level. It also allows it to seem as though they were never married.

2)For said circumstance to be true, then it must logically be concluded that all instances prior to the retcon of OMD, had to be valid in order for the continued love to be valid. In a normal retcon, I would agree that the past no longer happened and that OMD over rides it. But in this case, their entire premise would be invalid if the conclusion I came to is also invalid. I am going based on two similarly structured Marvel events and the words of Mephisto in said story.

Now Marvel can go on some alternate tangent or screw the book up with sloppy connections. But based on logic, there is no short sightedness about my reasoning. It isn't air tight but it is sound rational, provided what has been given to us, the reader. Ultimately it comes down to this

-Mephisto wiped the marriage from the minds of everyone but kept it alive in Peter in MJ's hearts, thus creating a pocket of continual sufferage.

-If above statement is true, then logically the marriage would had to have happened in the 616 reality at some point, even if regression caused a time distortion to make it no longer occur from a given point in time and beyond.

-If the first statement is untrue, then Marvel gave us a lie (and thus far, Marvel has not contradicted their story as far as Mephisto's words were concerned about keeping the marriage alive in a small part of their hearts), which would invalidate the entire retro active continuity.

I'm not saying you will like the reasoning. It is just logical. That's all I am focused on. What is the most logical rational that could lead us to this point, without being convoluded.

[Arach Knight]

Beginning with the fact OMD/BND is more permanent then those stories.

I dare the risk of sounding like a total jerk by asking if you actually read Marvel comic books? Both of those events have been shown to be a permanent part of Marvel. Blink as a 616 character, originally wiped herself from existence with her own powers. They used AoA to bring her back. Since then, she continues to be a character in Exiles, which by the way has visited upon AoA (showing that it was not merely wiped away when things returned to how Bishop remembered them). Then you have House of M, which was responsible for M Day, which led to Messiah Complex, which is still being dealt with in X-Men.

So I do not know what you mean by OMD/BND is more permanent than Age of Apocalypse and House of M. It doesn't get more permanent than Peter Parker yelling at Dr. Strange "I SAID TAKE IT AWAY!" (referring to his desire for Dr. Strange to wipe Peter's mind of a reality where Gwen and Uncle Ben had lived). I'm not just pulling my reasoning out of thin air or my rear end. I'm actually taking the time to think about what has happened and what could happen. Between those two thoughts, I came up with a reasonable circumstance other than "it's magic, it doesn't have to be explained." Please don't jump on me for presenting a rational explaination. It's not my fault Marvel doesn't do this. But for now, it is enough to say "okay, the story does make some kind of sense, for now."

[venom892]

Ok here is what I meant by permanent.While the effects of HOM are still be felt we're not still in the HOM reality correct?The only way to compare Hom and OMD/BND would be if the HOM reality lasted more then a mini series.OMD/BND is until they change their minds a permanent thing.HOM you knew it was always going back to the mainstream reality.That was never a question.with BND it is.You can't Compare a mini with a full blown new status quo for a character.

[Blader5489]

Easy way to understand OMD:

It's like House of M, but on a much smaller scale (only a few changes in Spider-Man history, as opposed to major changes for the whole MU) and there was no changing back.

[Arach Knight]

Ok here is what I meant by permanent.While the effects of HOM are still be felt we're not still in the HOM reality correct?The only way to compare Hom and OMD/BND would be if the HOM reality lasted more then a mini series.OMD/BND is until they change their minds a permanent thing.HOM you knew it was always going back to the mainstream reality.That was never a question.with BND it is.You can't Compare a mini with a full blown new status quo for a character.

Okay I see where the mscommunication is coming from. And I apologize if I seemd arragont. I did not know how else to phrase my query. But this is perhaps a better juxtapsotion.

HOM still happened. It is just no longer the current reality. The same thing applies here for BND. Peter's marriage to MJ still happened...it is just no logner the current reality. These events are not wiped because of the return to status quo. They happened as instances, Basically we have a reality reversal. Peter's mamrriage to MJ is like the HOM reality. It did happen and we know it happened, but it is no longer the current slate of reality.

[spideyboy_1111]

In all honesty, they turned spidey's past into an alternate reality :(

[fifthfiend]

Easy way to understand OMD:

It's like House of M, but on a much smaller scale (only a few changes in Spider-Man history, as opposed to major changes for the whole MU) and there was no changing back.

But it's not like that, because nothing was changed.

I love that Arach-whatsisface is still pushing this line -

OMD functions the same way. Spider-Man was married to MJ. He had all of those fantastic adventures that you worry will invalidate your comic collections.

- when it's the pro-BND people who are the ones having so much trouble keeping their story straight.

[Blader5489]

But it's not like that, because nothing was changed.

Wtf?

The wedding was changed so that Pete and MJ didn't get married. Harry's death was changed into a near-death experience. Baby May wasn't even concieved.

That's more or less it, but to say that nothing has changed is flat out wrong.

[Arach Knight]

But it's not like that, because nothing was changed.

I love that Arach-whatsisface is still pushing this line -



- when it's the pro-BND people who are the ones having so much trouble keeping their story straight.


wow...that's mature. Arach what's his face. You know, the great thing about this site, is that when you make a post, you can scroll down the page and still see the most recent posts. My post was two spaces away when you posted. Is it that hard to read and get the name right, or do you think that it is some sort of insult to call me Arach what's his face? Apparently I must get some kind of story straight because I know that my name is in reference to Todd McFarlene's Spider-Man # 1, which had this monicker adorned on the cover. But, always nice to see that the internet keeps making jerks braver, one post at a time. you have a nice day fifthfiend.

[Vanguard07]

If you're gonna continue to post on internet forums i'd suggest developing a thicker skin friend. It was a insignificant comment. There was no need for you to even bother responding to the guy.

[Arach Knight]

This is true. But the sarcastic defensive side of me got the better.

[ragingdemon155]

In all honesty, they turned spidey's past into an alternate reality :(

That's been my main problem with the entire story since day one. :o

[TheCorpulent1]

A lot of people still seem to feel that way, despite Joe Q, Tom Brevoort, Dan Slott, and practically everyone else at Marvel saying otherwise 'til they're blue in the face.

[BlackLantern]

To me anyway...it doesn't seem that hard to understand...changes in history cause ripples...Pete and MJ not getting married affected lots of things around it.....as did their marriage...certain actions were taken and decisions were made either due to the marriage, or the marriage not happening.

[moraldeficiency]

To me anyway...it doesn't seem that hard to understand...changes in history cause ripples...Pete and MJ not getting married affected lots of things around it.....as did their marriage...certain actions were taken and decisions were made either due to the marriage, or the marriage not happening.

That would make sense if we didn't have the mystical memory wipe as the creamy filling of the whole deal with the devil thing.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, Joe Q and all of them have been saying that history did happen the same way, everyone just remembers it happening differently. If that's the case, Mephisto himself or some other external factor must have done the weird stuff like bring Harry back.

[BlackLantern]

That would make sense if we didn't have the mystical memory wipe as the creamy filling of the whole deal with the devil thing.

The way Mephisto described it "removing a thread from reality" leads me to think that any memories regarding the wedding and marriage are altered or gone....so they do remember dating and falling in love....

[moraldeficiency]

The way Mephisto described it "removing a thread from reality" leads me to think that any memories regarding the wedding and marriage are altered or gone....so they do remember dating and falling in love....

Sorry, I was vague, I meant the memory of who Spider-Man is. If you're taking the logical approach that the marriage was offset and that caused a ripple that works to an extent except when you acknowledge the "free bonus" mephisto threw in (he's just the nicest devil wannabe) by ****ing with the minds of everyone on the planet. Once you acknowledge that then logic goes out the window and you're left with: it's magic, we don't have to explain it.

[BlackLantern]

Yes Magic is the all ensaring MacGuffin.....I happen to like the change, I get stories about Spider-Man now....not Spider-Man, MJ, and decrepid Aunt May....

[TheCorpulent1]

You know, I was thinking... if they got Dan Slott to write a Ghost Rider/Spider-Man crossover about how much more unfair Blaze's life is now compared to Peter's, I might actually pick up a Spider-Man comic again. The sheer absurdity of it is so rife for comedic exploitation.

[BlackLantern]

are people still reading 'Ghost Rider'?....he tends to be one of those characters that people only care about for 2 or 3 months at a time....hence why the books have been cancelled 3 or 4 times over the years

[moraldeficiency]

You know, I was thinking... if they got Dan Slott to write a Ghost Rider/Spider-Man crossover about how much more unfair Blaze's life is now compared to Peter's, I might actually pick up a Spider-Man comic again. The sheer absurdity of it is so rife for comedic exploitation.

I would too. I'd also pick up an issue with sentry/freak as how ramdomly drinking strange chemicals can be good/bad.

[TheCorpulent1]

are people still reading 'Ghost Rider'?....he tends to be one of those characters that people only care about for 2 or 3 months at a time....hence why the books have been cancelled 3 or 4 times over the years
Um, not really. Jason Aaron's writing him very well right now, Garth Ennis' series was good before that, and he was, in fact, extremely popular for long stretches in both the '70s and the '90s.

[BlackLantern]

^^^yes and then was eventually cancelled.....so people DID stop reading and or caring at some point

[Norman Osborn]

I would too. I'd also pick up an issue with sentry/freak as how ramdomly drinking strange chemicals can be good/bad.

Didn't Freak shoot up the chemicals??....I'd still buy it...just sayin is all!!:csad:

[TheCorpulent1]

^^^yes and then was eventually cancelled.....so people DID stop reading and or caring at some point
No, cancelation doesn't mean people stopped caring or even reading. Comics are canceled for any number of reasons. Sales are usually a factor, but they're not necessarily the only factor. Thor, for example, was canceled after Disassembled even though it sold about as well as Captain America and Iron Man's comics, while those comics continued. Turns out editorial just wanted to let the character rest for a while before revamping him and bringing him back in a much higher profile capacity.

[Themanofbat]

lol... Thor got cancelled... :woot: :woot: :woot:

:cwink:

[ShaZam612]

So anyone else think that Anti-Venom will be Vin?

[Vanguard07]

That'd be a pretty good way to go i guess. I just assumed that Anti-venom was just gonna be Mr Negative with a symbiote or something.

[Guyverjay]

What the hell man, where have you been? How have you been?
Wow, I hope your still keeping up with One Piece and Naruto!!
Good to see you Guyverjay!!

My new job has kept me busy, I haven't even been reading comics anymore lol

I am still up to date with Naruto

Fell behind on One Piece though, hovering around ep 170

[J. J. Jameson]

I can't believe we're still talking about how screwed up Spider-Man is.







I thought for sure there would have been a retcon. Meh, I give it till December.

[TheCorpulent1]

I'm pretty sure it'll last beyond December. Sales are still high and Joe Q is still in charge.

[J. J. Jameson]

I'm pretty sure it'll last beyond December. Sales are still high and Joe Q is still in charge.

I love how you crush my optimistic spirits :csad:.

Anywho, on last issue...part one of "Kraven's First Hunt...it was okay. Not nearly so bad or cringe worthy that almost all the other stories have been. But, here again, there is nothing new about "Brand New Day". Haven't we seen this sort of thing before in both Amazing Spider-Man AND Ultimate Spider-Man? I'm thinking of the time Flash Thompson was mistaken for Spider-Man, and then Spidey had to rush in and save him. It didn't help that I saw the twist coming from the moment we saw the panel that showed this new Kraven looking at a computer screen. The screen said "Peter Parker." Obviously, it was a red herring...only, the secret wasn't so secret because of another little give away: Kraven never said Peter's name specifically.

And that thing in the comic shop? It felt waaaaay to forced. Why would Peter work in a comic shop?? Teaching, photography...that makes sense. But comics?


Of course, I'm just being overly critical...but in all seriousness, I'd give this one about a 6.5/10.

I'm still waiting for Zeb Wells to write another arc...

[BlackLantern]

I have always liked Kraven....I liked the concept of the big game hunter and the mindset of chasing the ultimate prey....had always hoped he would make it into the films

[Blader5489]

I love how you crush my optimistic spirits :csad:.

Anywho, on last issue...part one of "Kraven's First Hunt...it was okay. Not nearly so bad or cringe worthy that almost all the other stories have been. But, here again, there is nothing new about "Brand New Day". Haven't we seen this sort of thing before in both Amazing Spider-Man AND Ultimate Spider-Man? I'm thinking of the time Flash Thompson was mistaken for Spider-Man, and then Spidey had to rush in and save him. It didn't help that I saw the twist coming from the moment we saw the panel that showed this new Kraven looking at a computer screen. The screen said "Peter Parker." Obviously, it was a red herring...only, the secret wasn't so secret because of another little give away: Kraven never said Peter's name specifically.

Did you miss the part where she said she tracked Spider-Man to his apartment and found Pete's name on the lease?

And that thing in the comic shop? It felt waaaaay to forced. Why would Peter work in a comic shop?? Teaching, photography...that makes sense. But comics?

He needs money, and it has already been established that he can't get a job in either teaching or photography.

[Anubis]

WHy not?

[UK_Stu]

I love how you crush my optimistic spirits :csad:.

Anywho, on last issue...part one of "Kraven's First Hunt...it was okay. Not nearly so bad or cringe worthy that almost all the other stories have been. But, here again, there is nothing new about "Brand New Day". Haven't we seen this sort of thing before in both Amazing Spider-Man AND Ultimate Spider-Man? I'm thinking of the time Flash Thompson was mistaken for Spider-Man, and then Spidey had to rush in and save him. It didn't help that I saw the twist coming from the moment we saw the panel that showed this new Kraven looking at a computer screen. The screen said "Peter Parker." Obviously, it was a red herring...only, the secret wasn't so secret because of another little give away: Kraven never said Peter's name specifically.

And that thing in the comic shop? It felt waaaaay to forced. Why would Peter work in a comic shop?? Teaching, photography...that makes sense. But comics?


Of course, I'm just being overly critical...but in all seriousness, I'd give this one about a 6.5/10.

I'm still waiting for Zeb Wells to write another arc...

You are right, I've posted the same kind of things of the Spider-man boards. BND's plots and characters are just re-hashs of older stories and characters. I appreciate that for anyone just coming on board, or has only been reading the comics for the last few years its all good, but for me its just the same thing with some modern updates.

I really enjoy the old stories, but that doesn't mean I want to read them again with just some slight modern day differences.

[BlackLantern]

WHy not?

because Dexter Bennett, the owner of the DB, had him black-balled....on a job interview, the guy told Peter that Bennett had called him personally and threatened his publication if he hired Parker...

[Themanofbat]

<edit>

[Themanofbat]

Ok....

I posted this in the Spider-Man comics forums, but some of you don't go there, so I'm reposting it here...

In the Spider-Forums, there's been great discussions about the monthly lows that ASM has been getting since the beginning of BND, even though they "appear" to be stabalizing around 70k per issue (in my opinion)....

So here goes my number/figures calculations of all monthly Spider-Man titles sold since January of 2001 (3 months prior to JMS jumping on board ASM).

First of all, in JMS' 6 1/2 year run, he sold over 7 168 126 copies of ASM over 75 issues, making it an average pf 95 575 copies per issue. Of course, he had 3 movies helping him out, as well as ASM #500 and several big time events that made sales rise (Civil War, Back in Black, etc...) Nonetheless, his books sold well over that time ranging from a peak of 148 900 copies (ASM #500) and as low as 71 100 copies (ASM #524)...

In 2001, the main Spider-books on the rack were ASM, Peter Parker: Spider-Man, and Tangled Web. The total number of copies of Spider-Man books (33 issues in total (12 copies of ASM, 12 copies of PP:SM, and 9 copies of TW)) sold that year was 1 924 400 copies, averaging out to be 58 315 copies per issue.

In 2002, the main Spider-books on the rack were ASM, Peter Parker: Spider-Man, and Tangled Web. The total number of copies of Spider-Man books (36 issues in total (12 copies of ASM, 12 copies of PP:SM, and 12 copies of TW)) sold that year was 2 264 600 copies, averaging out to be 62 906 copies per issue.

In 2003, the main Spider-books on the rack were ASM, Spectacular Spider-Man, Peter Parker: Spider-Man, and Tangled Web. The total number of copies of Spider-Man books (31 issues in total (12 copies of ASM, 11 issues of Spectacular, 7 copies of PP:SM, and 1 copy of TW)) sold that year was 2 360 400 copies, averaging out to be 76 142 copies per issue.

In 2004, the main Spider-books on the rack were ASM, Spectacular Spider-Man, and Marvel Knights: Spider-Man. The total number of copies of Spider-Man books (33 issues in total (12 copies of ASM, 12 issues of Spectacular, and 9 copies of MK:SM)) sold that year was 2 379 700 copies, averaging out to be 72 112 copies per issue.

2004 would prove to be the most productive year this millenium, as no other year sold as many units, even though it did NOT have the best average per copy.

In 2005, the main Spider-books on the rack were ASM, Spectacular Spider-Man, Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, and Marvel Knights: Spider-Man. The total number of copies of Spider-Man books (31 issues in total (12 copies of ASM, 12 issues of MK:SM, 4 copies of Spectacular, and 3 copies of FSN)) sold that year was 2 039 300 copies, averaging out to be 65 784 copies per issue.

In 2006, the main Spider-books on the rack were ASM, Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, and Marvel Knights/Sensational Spider-Man. The total number of copies of Spider-Man books (33 issues in total (9 copies of ASM, 12 issues of MK/Sensational SM, and 12 copies of FSN)) sold that year was 2 218 500 copies, averaging out to be 67 227 copies per issue.

In 2007, the main Spider-books on the rack were ASM, Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, and Sensational Spider-Man. The total number of copies of Spider-Man books (26 issues in total (9 copies of ASM, 8 issues of Sensational SM, and 9 copies of FSN)) sold that year was 2 085 539 copies, averaging out to be 80 213 copies per issue.

2007 would prove to be the year with the best average per copy, even though it has sold the 3rd lowest amount of total books this millenium, but that would be a direct link to the total number of individual books sold in the year, which was a low of 26 copies (the lowest of all years).

In 2008, the beginning of BND, the ONLY main Spider-book on the rack is Amazing Spider-Man. Since the year is only half complete (the numbers available are up to June), we can only speculate on the remainder of the year, but the first half is raw data that still count. The total number of copies of Amazing Spider-Man books (18 issues in total) sold thus far is 1 542 223 copies, averaging out to be 85 679 copies per issue.

As mentioned above, the BEST year thus far as far as total number of Spider-Man comics sold was in 2004, which saw totals of 2 379 700 copies sold. In order for ASM to MATCH that amount for the remainder of 2008, it would have to sell 837 477 copies, or a monthly average 139 580 copies, which means a weekly average (going on 3 weeks per month) of 46 527 copies... which would be less than the 49k average that ASM had back in the beginning of 2001 prior to JMS jumping on board.

IF that were to happen, ASM would have to lose over 23 000 readers per month for the remainder of the year... something I do not see happening. And even if it does, all that means is that the total number of Spider-Man comics sold in 2008 would MATCH the totals of 2004... which had the BEST year this millenium of total copies sold.

In other words, as far as total Spider-Man comics sold in one year, 2008, the year of Brand New Day, will result in a complete success, even if the books drop dramatically, which doesn't appear to be the case as the monthly drops are becoming less than the previous months. 2008 will not have the same successful unit average like 2007 did, but I see the success of 2007 more as a result of the high number of copies sold due to Civil War, Back in Black, and One More Day...

My results were taken from this link...

http://www.cbgxtra.com/Default.aspx?tabid=695

So if anybody wants to check the figures, be my guest.... :yay:

Here's a cut'n paste of my excel sheet... if any body wants to see the raw data...


2001 # jan # feb # march # april # may # june # july # aug # sept # oct # nov # dec

ASM 468 49200 469 48600 470 48800 471 77300 472 73700 473 82300 474 89800 475 90500 476 90000 477 92800 478 93500 479 95300
PP:SM 125 46000 126 45500 127 46000 128 51600 129 52300 130 54900 131 58400 132 58900 133 56100 134 53800 135 53700 136 53100
TW 1 53200 2 46800 3 46600 4 41300 5 40200 6 36200 7 32900 8 32900 9 32200

total 95200 94100 94800 182100 172800 183800 189500 189600 182300 179500 180100 180600
average 47600 47050 47400 60700 57600 61266.66667 63166.66667 63200 60766.66667 59833.33333 60033.33333 60200

2002 # jan # feb # march # april # may # june # july # aug # sept # oct # nov # dec

ASM 480 97400 481 97300 482 99800 483 103500 484 106000 485 106800 486 105400 487 104800 488 102600 489 100700 490 97000 491 114400
PP:SM 137 51900 138 51300 139 51300 140 52400 141 52100 142 58200 143 57100 144 62100 145 66400 146 60500 147 60400 148 62200
TW 10 31200 11 29400 12 28800 13 29800 14 31000 15 29600 16 28800 17 28800 18 27600 19 27300 20 25600 21 25100

total 180500 178000 179900 185700 189100 194600 191300 195700 196600 188500 183000 201700
average 60166.66667 59333.33333 59966.66667 61900 63033.33333 64866.66667 63766.66667 65233.33333 65533.33333 62833.33333 61000 67233.33333

2003 # jan # feb # march # april # may # june # july # aug # sept # oct # nov # dec

ASM 492 95300 493 96900 494 95100 495 94800 496 95100 497 93500 498 94700 499 92800 500 148900 501 94400 502 90500 503 87400
SpecSM 264 118300 265 90000 266 79100 267 75000 268 71700 269 67500 270 65900 271 62700 272 58700 273 55700 274 54100
PP:SM 149 56800 150 53400 151 53600 152 48400 153 47700 154 50100 155 48800
TW 22 23500

total 175600 268600 238700 222300 217800 215300 211000 158700 211600 153100 146200 141500
average 58533.33333 89533.33333 79566.66667 74100 72600 71766.66667 70333.33333 79350 105800 76550 73100 70750

2004 # jan # feb # march # april # may # june # july # aug # sept # oct # nov # dec

ASM 504 84000 505 83600 506 83200 507 81900 508 82300 509 88300 510 84800 511 88100 512 87200 513 89500 514 87100 515 82800
SpecSM 275 53500 276 52800 277 51000 278 51000 279 50500 280 51300 281 52300 282 51900 283 51100 284 50600 285 47500 286 48800
SSM/MK 1 137300 2 99300 3 82700 4 75500 5 75600 6 71500 7 69900 8 68300 9 64500

total 137500 136400 134200 270200 232100 222300 212600 215600 209800 210000 202900 196100
average 68750 68200 67100 90066.66667 77366.66667 74100 70866.66667 71866.66667 69933.33333 70000 67633.33333 65366.66667

2005 # jan # feb # march # april # may # june # july # aug # sept # oct # nov # dec

ASM 516 79700 517 78600 518 76900 519 78500 520 76100 521 74100 522 73100 523 72000 524 71100 525 79500 526 79700 527 79300
SSM/MK 10 61700 11 60500 12 59800 13 60500 14 57300 15 54100 16 50900 17 48600 18 47600 19 66100 20 64700 21 68000
SpecSM 287 47700 288 47700 289 46900 290 45800
FSM 1 85700 2 74800 3 72300

total 189100 186800 183600 184800 133400 128200 124000 120600 118700 231300 219200 219600
average 63033.33333 62266.66667 61200 61600 66700 64100 62000 60300 59350 77100 73066.66667 73200

2006 # jan # feb # march # april # may # june # july # aug # sept # oct # nov # dec

ASM 528 95400 529 90400 530 89900 531 86900 532 95500 533 113000 534 113500 535 117000 536 118800
FSM 4 78600 5 59900 6 58800 7 55400 8 53900 9 50200 10 48900 11 50900 12 48100 13 46300 14 43500 15 42100
SSM/MK 22 74900 23 59000 24 53900 25 52000 26 52500 27 50700 28 58500 29 55300 30 54500 31 51600 32 50200 33 48400

total 248900 209300 202600 194300 201900 213900 220900 106200 219600 97900 212500 90500
average 82966.66667 69766.66667 67533.33333 64766.66667 67300 71300 73633.33333 53100 73200 48950 70833.33333 45250

2007 # jan # feb # march # april # may # june # july # aug # sept # oct # nov # dec

ASM 537 114800 538 142930 539 137723 540 119624 541 108217 542 105678 543 106478 544 146170 545 124406
FSM 16 41800 17 52785 18 50662 19 50255 20 49892 21 47885 22 46449 23 44658 24 110289
SSM 34 47000 35 59412 36 56135 37 57469 38 57055 39 55326 40 52177 41 100264

total 203600 255127 244520 107724 169516 213157 207453 203313 146170 110289 100264 124406
average 67866.66667 85042.33333 81506.66667 53862 84758 71052.33333 69151 67771 146170 110289 100264 124406

2008 # jan # feb # march # april # may # june # july # aug # sept # oct # nov # dec

ASM 546 127856 549 101048 552 89808 555 86885 558 76944 561 72345 564 567 570 573 576 579
ASM 547 101132 550 90817 553 82624 556 78442 559 74184 562 71382 565 568 571 574 577 580
ASM 548 97881 551 88029 554 81048 557 77041 560 73991 563 70766 566 569 572 575 578 581

total 326869 279894 253480 242368 225119 214493 0 0 0 0 0 0
average 108956.3333 93298 84493.33333 80789.33333 75039.66667 71497.66667 0 0 0 0 0 0

[Darthphere]

TMOB, no one is reading that.

[Themanofbat]

TMOB, no one is reading that.

All they have to read is this...

In 2008, the beginning of BND, the ONLY main Spider-book on the rack is Amazing Spider-Man. Since the year is only half complete (the numbers available are up to June), we can only speculate on the remainder of the year, but the first half is raw data that still count. The total number of copies of Amazing Spider-Man books (18 issues in total) sold thus far is 1 542 223 copies, averaging out to be 85 679 copies per issue.

As mentioned above, the BEST year thus far as far as total number of Spider-Man comics sold was in 2004, which saw totals of 2 379 700 copies sold. In order for ASM to MATCH that amount for the remainder of 2008, it would have to sell 837 477 copies, or a monthly average 139 580 copies, which means a weekly average (going on 3 weeks per month) of 46 527 copies... which would be less than the 49k average that ASM had back in the beginning of 2001 prior to JMS jumping on board.

]b
IF that were to happen, ASM would have to lose over 23 000 readers per month for the remainder of the year... something I do not see happening. And even if it does, all that means is that the total number of Spider-Man comics sold in 2008 would MATCH the totals of 2004... which had the BEST year this millenium of total copies sold.

In other words, as far as total Spider-Man comics sold in one year, 2008, the year of Brand New Day, will result in a complete success, even if the books drop dramatically, which doesn't appear to be the case as the monthly drops are becoming less than the previous months. 2008 will not have the same successful unit average like 2007 did, but I see the success of 2007 more as a result of the high number of copies sold due to Civil War, Back in Black, and One More Day...[/b]

:yay:

[spideyboy_1111]

having more issues sold could also simply be more produced as well.. that and the comic industry has risen above and beyond what it was 10 years ago... so this doesn't surprise me at all though. And still doesn't mean BND is good. *yawn*

[KangConquers]

Does anyone not look at those figures and see the rapid decline?

[Themanofbat]

having more issues sold could also simply be more produced as well.. that and the comic industry has risen above and beyond what it was 10 years ago... so this doesn't surprise me at all though. And still doesn't mean BND is good. *yawn*

Your first comment doesn't make any sense, and these figures show more comics sold during the "highly-acclaimed" JMS era where all the anti-BND people claim that that's how a well-written Peter and MJ should/could be like...

And whether it's good or not is irrelevant... people talk about these declining numbers as if they are so terrible, but the bottom line is that BND will be commercially successful for Marvel... again, whether or not YOU think it's good or bad...

:oldrazz:

Does anyone not look at those figures and see the rapid decline?

I see more Spider-books being sold in 2008 than any other year this millenium...

:huh: :huh: :huh:

[KangConquers]

Your first comment doesn't make any sense, and these figures show more comics sold during the "highly-acclaimed" JMS era where all the anti-BND people claim that that's how a well-written Peter and MJ should/could be like...

And whether it's good or not is irrelevant... people talk about these declining numbers as if they are so terrible, but the bottom line is that BND will be commercially successful for Marvel... again, whether or not YOU think it's good or bad...

:oldrazz:



I see more Spider-books being sold in 2008 than any other year this millenium...

:huh: :huh: :huh:

But you don't see that every subsequent BND issue has sold less? The Sales are steadily declining, with no sign of stopping it's descent.

[Kitsune]

Good sales simply mean it will be a longer time before I start reading ASM again, because it will take longer for Mavel to fix the col
colossal mistake that was OMD. I'm still hoping that we find that the Norman Osborn that came back from the grave is actually a Skrull

[Themanofbat]

But you don't see that every subsequent BND issue has sold less? The Sales are steadily declining, with no sign of stopping it's descent.

Yes, but as I mentioned..."the monthly drops are becoming less than the previous months"..

So I'm not that worried...

:yay:

[Darthphere]

TMOB is right, the fact is that the 3 ASM are still outselling ASM, Friendly and Sensational.

[JustABill]

But with a steady decline which surely has Quesada shaking in his little Anti-Mary Jane boots. The most popular Marvel character shouldn't see such a steady drop in sales of his only book on the market at the moment. :o

[Darthphere]

Even if the decline continues at this pace through the end of the year, they're still selling more Spider-Man comics.

[venom892]

Sad but true.As much as I hate to admit it i wouldn't be surprised to see numbers increase during the new ways to die arc.

[Themanofbat]

Even if the decline continues at this pace through the end of the year, they're still selling more Spider-Man comics.

This is true...

Even if the now averaging 70k per issue would drop to as low as 46k per issue for the remainder of the year, the total number of Spider-Man comics sold this year would MATCH the best year of this millenium, which was 2004 with 2.38 million copies sold....

And I somehow doubt that the book will lose 23k readers per week from hereonin...

[Themanofbat]

But with a steady decline which surely has Quesada shaking in his little Anti-Mary Jane boots. The most popular Marvel character shouldn't see such a steady drop in sales of his only book on the market at the moment. :o

But the declines are NOT steady... they were greater in the early months, and are a lot smaller in recent months, indicating that perhaps the numbers are stabalizing...

And this is a long-term effect here... Marvel has wanted a single Spider-Man for over 15 years, and they won't lose him now that they have him there.

[Kitsune]

But the declines are NOT steady... they were greater in the early months, and are a lot smaller in recent months, indicating that perhaps the numbers are stabalizing...

And this is a long-term effect here... Marvel has wanted a single Spider-Man for over 15 years, and they won't lose him now that they have him there.

Sad that people can be that short sighted.

[Themanofbat]

Sad that people can be that short sighted.

I don't think it's short sightedness, I think it's the basis of what made him such a great character in the first place.

While I didn't like the execution of OMD, it was Marvel's way of getting what they have wanted since the very early 90's... a single Spider-Man. (the proof is the Clone Saga).

So the bottom line is that a single Spider-Man works better in the long run, much like a loner Batman, or the last son of Krypton Superman, or a blind DareDevil, etc...

These are the things that make the heroes we like interesting, be it in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's or the books of today...

And while a married Spider-Man was fun early on, the dynamic of the book lacked something soon thereafter, and while some people would like to see a resolution to the Spider-Man saga, Marvel Comics Inc. would much rather that the character outlives us all... and despite the crappy execution of OMD, Marvel finally has it's flagship character right where they have always wanted him....

Single.

However, and these are merely MY two cents here, while I want to see Peter grow, my personal opinion of the essense of Peter Parker is a man who will always keep trying no matter how many times life kicks him in the nads...

We see this in the older stories... no matter how much he tries, no matter how much good he does as Spider-Man, his life as Peter Parker stinks... yet he keeps fighting the good fight... he never gives up, and always tries to do good even if he knows things will result badly for Peter Parker, because he puts the world in front of his own needs... and in Marvel's point of view, how can things be that terrible if he has a wife to go home to at the end of every story?

While we will see him date (and maybe develop serious relations) women, as unfortunate as it is for me to type this statement, Peter Parker is meant to be alone, because he is the ultimate bad luck guy... yet he keeps trying, and those are the kinds of lessons that taught me not to give up in my own life against my own personal demons, and it's those values that I want my kid(s) to learn as they grow older and read Spider-Man, and I would hope that it's these same lessons that everybody wants to take from reading Spider-Man.

No matter how many times life punches you in the face, always get up and face life, despite the fact that you know you're going to get punched again.

And that is why I believe that Marvel wants a single Spider-Man... it just works better.

Thanks for listening...

:yay:

[Kitsune]

I don't think it's short sightedness, I think it's the basis of what made him such a great character in the first place.

While I didn't like the execution of OMD, it was Marvel's way of getting what they have wanted since the very early 90's... a single Spider-Man. (the proof is the Clone Saga).



The biggest difference between Marvel and DC, is that Marvel's character change and evolve, while DC generally has a Crisis every 10 years and undoes their development. I've been reading Spider-Man since about 1982 and I've seen him single and married, and quite frankly the marriage did not make things worse or sacrifice storylines, and it's a damn shame that current Joe Q can't see that. Even if I did agree that the marrage was a problem OMD was the worst possible way they could have undone the marriage, bar none. They esentially sacrificed the integrity of the character so that they could rehash story lines that were already played out in 1985 when Peter got married. BND has yet to emerge from the crap that is OMD, I kept buying it for several months, but it just wasn't worth the money to buy stories that had already been done better elsewhere.

[Xofenroht]

A good writer can do anything with Spider-Man and make it gold, whether Pete were single or not.
I, currently, don't care about OMD anymore since it's SO FAR in the past and might still come back and bite Pete in the ass any way.
The point is that there is a load of story potential still left in Spider-Man. There's something that can be done with what happened in OMD and there's something that can be done if nothing else with OMD happens at all.
All it takes is patience and a little bit of foresight.

[arachnid-guy]

And that is why I believe that Marvel wants a single Spider-Man... it just works better.


No. It REALLY doesn't. At least not now, that we know how effective the union to MJ was to the whole mythos. We've HAD our share of single Peter Parker 20 or so years ago. Upto his marriage [not his ''moving in''] his relationships failed...mainly due to the readership and the general consentous that he should be together with one woman- Mary Jane. Okay well maybe some thought Gwen, but her death was the drama element the book needed...and not an illogical 'magic, we dont have to explain' b.s. The writing was the key and to RETRACT Pete so drastically is not fair on him or the readership.

He's single, but there will be NO-ONE as significant in his life as Mary Jane Watson. No woman will ever know him as she does [or did?]. Yeah it's tragic what the final issue documents and very 'Greek tradegy-esque' but...thats mainly due to JMS. The idea and the execution of Brand New Day denies the nature and the evolution that Peter underwent during the years. I'll use JMS as a main example.

The Peter we see now is a shadow of the relatively sure self we saw during the latter years. Peter is written as a bumbling oaf...instead of a SUPERHERO. JMS-era he had doubts, sure...but he was a regular guy you could still gather that.

He's a decent man and the writing in BND does not show this0 however this could all be changed with a better writer on hand. Yeah you coudl argue that he's 'hard luck Charlie' blah blah blah...but there's no denial that the Peter we read about now doesnt feel ''right''. Of course it doesn't. Because the slightly matured Peter we've all wanted to see from the get-go has been killed. And after all he's been through, all the grief he's been subjected to...he'd have to grow up eventually. Grr...I hope i'm proved wrong in the long run and they have Parker back with Mary jane. I hope...but thanks to Joe Q, i'll be hoping for a long time.

Bascially read an issue of Brand New Day and go back and read an issue of JMS-[or any other recent ] era Spider-Man. One of the Digger, Shade, Loki, Ezekiel [heck, even Sins Past and The Other] stories! There's a distinct lack of quality in Peter's personality. And, well, that's a pathetic thought...


To this....

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff265/DoopPhotobucket3/asm547/1.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/Doop/015.jpg




From this....


http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h238/BertoneBeatle/morestuff/osborn/abba23.jpg


And even after the tragedyof losing their *now non existent* baby child...

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h238/BertoneBeatle/morestuff/osborn/mj.jpg



Oh and...can you imagine a scene like this in BND world?

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7876/img00477yl.jpg



Although I just wish...this scene....pays off and everything is revealed in the end....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/Doop/15.jpg

[Themanofbat]

No. It REALLY doesn't. At least not now, that we know how effective the union to MJ was to the whole mythos. We've HAD our share of single Peter Parker 20 or so years ago. Upto his marriage [not his ''moving in''] his relationships failed...mainly due to the readership and the general consentous that he should be together with one woman- Mary Jane. Okay well maybe some thought Gwen, but her death was the drama element the book needed...and not an illogical 'magic, we dont have to explain' b.s. The writing was the key and to RETRACT Pete so drastically is not fair on him or the readership.

You could have posted a beautiful counter-argument up until you stated that readership and the general consentous was that he should be together with Mary Jane...


Bwahahahahahahahahahaha.... :huh:....hahahahahahahahaha

Did you even read Spider-Man comics in 1987? There was NO readership demand that he be together forever with Mary Jane, and the general consentous amongst many comic book creators was that Peter Parker should remain single.

The marriage was the result of a sales gimmick first promoted by Stan Lee to increase readership in his daily newspaper strips... nothing more, nothing less.

I'm not suggesting that OMD was great (it was very terrible AND poorly executed), but these things happen in comics and life goes on. The bottom line as a reader is to choose what he or she hould buy to read.

'Nuff said.

:yay:

[javi1024]

Although I just wish...this scene....pays off and everything is revealed in the end....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/Doop/15.jpg
i loved that issue. that was a heart-wrenching scene.

[BrianWilly]

Man, reading the latest issues, BND really sucks.

[arachnid-guy]

You could have posted a beautiful counter-argument up until you stated that readership and the general consentous was that he should be together with Mary Jane...


Bwahahahahahahahahahaha.... :huh:....hahahahahahahahaha

Did you even read Spider-Man comics in 1987? There was NO readership demand that he be together forever with Mary Jane, and the general consentous amongst many comic book creators was that Peter Parker should remain single.

The marriage was the result of a sales gimmick first promoted by Stan Lee to increase readership in his daily newspaper strips... nothing more, nothing less.

I'm not suggesting that OMD was great (it was very terrible AND poorly executed), but these things happen in comics and life goes on. The bottom line as a reader is to choose what he or she hould buy to read.

'Nuff said.

:yay:

I guess I had too much coffee.

[J. J. Jameson]

Man, reading the latest issues, BND really sucks.

Especially Gale's stuff. :csad:

[CaptainStacy]

I don't think it's short sightedness, I think it's the basis of what made him such a great character in the first place.

While I didn't like the execution of OMD, it was Marvel's way of getting what they have wanted since the very early 90's... a single Spider-Man. (the proof is the Clone Saga).

So the bottom line is that a single Spider-Man works better in the long run, much like a loner Batman, or the last son of Krypton Superman, or a blind DareDevil, etc...

These are the things that make the heroes we like interesting, be it in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's or the books of today...

And while a married Spider-Man was fun early on, the dynamic of the book lacked something soon thereafter, and while some people would like to see a resolution to the Spider-Man saga, Marvel Comics Inc. would much rather that the character outlives us all... and despite the crappy execution of OMD, Marvel finally has it's flagship character right where they have always wanted him....

Single.

However, and these are merely MY two cents here, while I want to see Peter grow, my personal opinion of the essense of Peter Parker is a man who will always keep trying no matter how many times life kicks him in the nads...

We see this in the older stories... no matter how much he tries, no matter how much good he does as Spider-Man, his life as Peter Parker stinks... yet he keeps fighting the good fight... he never gives up, and always tries to do good even if he knows things will result badly for Peter Parker, because he puts the world in front of his own needs... and in Marvel's point of view, how can things be that terrible if he has a wife to go home to at the end of every story?

While we will see him date (and maybe develop serious relations) women, as unfortunate as it is for me to type this statement, Peter Parker is meant to be alone, because he is the ultimate bad luck guy... yet he keeps trying, and those are the kinds of lessons that taught me not to give up in my own life against my own personal demons, and it's those values that I want my kid(s) to learn as they grow older and read Spider-Man, and I would hope that it's these same lessons that everybody wants to take from reading Spider-Man.

No matter how many times life punches you in the face, always get up and face life, despite the fact that you know you're going to get punched again.

And that is why I believe that Marvel wants a single Spider-Man... it just works better.

Thanks for listening...

:yay:

Im sorry, man. Im not seeing the new stories with single Peter "work better" than when he was married.

If sexual tension with Harry's girlfriend equates better stories ( and Harry being in the book at ALL is another debate onto itself) well, you could have that same tension with Peter being married to MJ...hell, that might even make it more interesting.

To me, this was just another one of Joe Q's "pissed off fans = sales" routines that he has been using for the past few years....

[Doc Destruction]

A good writer can do anything with Spider-Man and make it gold, whether Pete were single or not.

Correct. End of argument.

[venom892]

Pretty much.Anything can be done with a great writer.

[TheCorpulent1]

To me, this was just another one of Joe Q's "pissed off fans = sales" routines that he has been using for the past few years....
Can you blame him? It's been working extremely well for the past eight years.

[Anubis]

People are sheep.

[TheCorpulent1]

They are indeed. Although, to be honest, I find it harder to hate ASM now that Hulk exists. At least ASM still has some substance, even if it is 30-year-old substance...

[Anubis]

God, Hulk is just a horror right now. WTF Loeb. WTF.....

[moraldeficiency]

When the hulk starts making deals with the devil to bring back general ross and sacrifices betty while retroactively aborting his son, then come talk to me.

[Anubis]

I don't know.....Abortion by devil, or Beating up Thor.....God I hope PAD comes in and says this is all a dream as well.

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, that was the red Hulk, who's just a gimmick anyway. I'm sure he'll be forgotten in a few years.

[Doc Destruction]

Mercifully.

[Themanofbat]

Im sorry, man. Im not seeing the new stories with single Peter "work better" than when he was married.

If sexual tension with Harry's girlfriend equates better stories ( and Harry being in the book at ALL is another debate onto itself) well, you could have that same tension with Peter being married to MJ...hell, that might even make it more interesting.

To me, this was just another one of Joe Q's "pissed off fans = sales" routines that he has been using for the past few years....

I'm not saying the "current" stories are working better... just that Spider-Man stories in general work better when Peter Parker is single... like Batman working better as a loner than with teammates, like Superman being the sole survivor of Krypton, like DareDevil being blind... we've seen stories that dwelve into the opposite of those statements, and while they might be fun temporarily, they take away from what made the character great to begin with (these are just examples, I'm sure many of you can come up with even better ones)...

I think BND was the end result of what Marvel Comics has wanted for 15 years, and JQ had the nads to try and pull it off... and while he did so miserably, I can see them staying this course for the long haul...

[moraldeficiency]

I don't know.....Abortion by devil, or Beating up Thor.....God I hope PAD comes in and says this is all a dream as well.

Not just devil abortion, let's throw in liferape, a universal mindwipe, and a new peter parker that doesn't know what web fluid is and get's schooled by gymnasts.

The thor fight was bull I agree, but at least that didn't happen in the pages of thor, now go read OMD and try and tell me with a straight face the two are even in the same league of offense.

[moraldeficiency]

I'm not saying the "current" stories are working better... just that Spider-Man stories in general work better when Peter Parker is single... like Batman working better as a loner than with teammates, like Superman being the sole survivor of Krypton, like DareDevil being blind... we've seen stories that dwelve into the opposite of those statements, and while they might be fun temporarily, they take away from what made the character great to begin with (these are just examples, I'm sure many of you can come up with even better ones)...

I think BND was the end result of what Marvel Comics has wanted for 15 years, and JQ had the nads to try and pull it off... and while he did so miserably, I can see them staying this course for the long haul...

I'm going to have to call foul on those examples, they're too scattered to be prime motivational forces.

I agree with batman as a loner, although you do have to factor that even as a loner he has his own team of people that help out, Daredevil does need to be blind to work (though that's a factor of his powers and not personality or history, so quite a bit different. Supes is hardly the sole survivor though. Besides all the versions (yes, I know different dimensions, but still when you've got a bunch of kryptonians around it makes the sole survivor less in my mind) you've got the new krypton arc/event coming up which actually has me back into superman. If done right this could really change a lot of that aspect to superman, and quite possibly in a good way.

I agree they'll keep this going way past the point they should, just like with the clone saga, but like with the clone saga, it'll die off as most truely horrific stories tend to. I don't see pete's maritial state as a definitive point at all, his sense of responsibility and guilt over inaction is how I see it. In the same way I feel Batman's sense on uncomprimising justice and desire for vengence drives him. And for supes? I'd say it's his foundation and upbringing as the adopted son of earth rather than the current line of his species. You can add on all the other factors you want as long as you keep that core and the characters are just fine. It's when you forget about these factors and have a character go against them by saying shirking responsibility and moral judgement and make a deal with the devil to liferape his aunt and turn him into a tool that you get away from the stories that work. By focusing so much on the marriage, they forgot what makes Spider-Man good to begin with.

[TheCorpulent1]

Whoa, whoa, Batman was at his all-time best, as far as I'm concerned, in the late-'90s/early-'00s, due in large part to the family he'd built up around himself. Nightwing, Robin, Oracle, Batgirl, and even Azrael and Leslie Thompkins brought so much to the table in terms of opening the scope of Batman's world and enriching Batman's character by showing him to us through their eyes. "Knight Time," an episode of the cartoon, summed it up perfectly when Superman mentioned that for a guy who claims to be a loner, Batman sure knows how to pick his partners. :)

[Doc Destruction]

I'm not saying the "current" stories are working better... just that Spider-Man stories in general work better when Peter Parker is single... like Batman working better as a loner than with teammates.

I'm pretty sure I've never disagreed with a post more than this one right here.

Batman is BEST when working with a team. And Spidey is boring as hell now that he's single again.

[CaptainStacy]

Whoa, whoa, Batman was at his all-time best, as far as I'm concerned, in the late-'90s/early-'00s, due in large part to the family he'd built up around himself. Nightwing, Robin, Oracle, Batgirl, and even Azrael and Leslie Thompkins brought so much to the table in terms of opening the scope of Batman's world and enriching Batman's character by showing him to us through their eyes. "Knight Time," an episode of the cartoon, summed it up perfectly when Superman mentioned that for a guy who claims to be a loner, Batman sure knows how to pick his partners. :)

That, and the fact that the Bat-Family as a concept, began to take shape as far back as 1940, nearly 70 years ago....

[Themanofbat]

I'm pretty sure I've never disagreed with a post more than this one right here.

Batman is BEST when working with a team. And Spidey is boring as hell now that he's single again.

Different Strokes, different folks...

I've been reading Batman for 33 years, and I've always dug him a LOT more when he's by himself...

And the Spidey books have been exciting for the first time in years...

Different Strokes, different folks...

:yay:

[Themanofbat]

That, and the fact that the Bat-Family as a concept, began to take shape as far back as 1940, nearly 70 years ago....

Inasmuch as it will be blasphemy to say such a thing, Batman's stories in Detective Comics took a turn for the worse (in my opinion) after they introduced Robin... whithin a year, the campiness that plagued the Bat books for close to 20 years started to settle in...

And even nowadays, when Bats has his "family" around him... how many stories do we read where he keeps the secret workings of a plan to himself, counting on the behaviors of his "family" to kick in at that pivotal moment... or when he constantly argues with Dick about not letting Dick in with plans/emotions/feelings/ideas, etc... He is still a loner with his family, he just comes across as a prick at times because of it...

Just my two cents...

:yay:

[TheCorpulent1]

That, and the fact that the Bat-Family as a concept, began to take shape as far back as 1940, nearly 70 years ago....
True. Although I like the big family more than just Batman and Robin. They don't necessarily have to all go out and fight crime together, but the concept of a support network composed of those who've penetrated the facade of Batman and are close to Bruce Wayne the human being as well is a wonderful addition to the Batman mythos. He's an orphan, after all, and every orphan wants a family--Batman unknowingly built one for himself.

[CaptainStacy]

Inasmuch as it will be blasphemy to say such a thing, Batman's stories in Detective Comics took a turn for the worse (in my opinion) after they introduced Robin... whithin a year, the campiness that plagued the Bat books for close to 20 years started to settle in...

And even nowadays, when Bats has his "family" around him... how many stories do we read where he keeps the secret workings of a plan to himself, counting on the behaviors of his "family" to kick in at that pivotal moment... or when he constantly argues with Dick about not letting Dick in with plans/emotions/feelings/ideas, etc... He is still a loner with his family, he just comes across as a prick at times because of it...

Just my two cents...

:yay:


I think it's been revealed that his paranoia was a result of the spell cast on him by Zatanna in Identity Crisis...

regardless; the arguing with his "family" members makes for a much better dynamic imo...

[TheCorpulent1]

It was, but that hasn't really made him any different. He's kind of nicer to those he considers family now, sometimes.

[Anubis]

For about a week out of every month. Kinda reverse PMS.

[J. J. Jameson]

Different Strokes, different folks...

I've been reading Batman for 33 years, and I've always dug him a LOT more when he's by himself...

And the Spidey books have been exciting for the first time in years...

Different Strokes, different folks...

:yay:

You didn't dig any of JMS's early run? A lot of people have crap to say about the mystical mumbo jumbo...but a lot of folks will still agree it was well written and Spidey's "voice" was really there. Besides, compared to One More Day, early JMS spider-totem whatever is peanuts.

[Kitsune]

People are sheep.
BND is Baaahhhdd....

[Themanofbat]

You didn't dig any of JMS's early run? A lot of people have crap to say about the mystical mumbo jumbo...but a lot of folks will still agree it was well written and Spidey's "voice" was really there. Besides, compared to One More Day, early JMS spider-totem whatever is peanuts.


His early work on the book was ok... nothing Spectacular (barring a few exceptional issues here and there), but all we had to compare him with was 3 years of Mackie, so of course his writing seemed good.

I didn't like that he chose to ignore most if not all of Spidey's supporting cast... I think we saw JJJ all of 3 or 4 times in ASM during that near 7 year period...

The Morlun arc started out well, but limped with its final chapter... the "conversation" with May was brilliant... I "dug" his Digger arc a LOT... I even liked his Dr. Octopus storyline and I really liked the Loki 2 parter (which he co-wrote with someone)... his ASM #500 was blah... and the rest of his work was really "uneventful" and "bland"...

To be fair, some of the BND books have been bland as well, but I'm feeling some real excitement in ASM for the first time in years...

:huh: :huh: :huh:

[J. J. Jameson]

The only issues of BND that I've really felt excitement for were the 3-issue story Wells did. Although, I did enjoy the BND Extra that came out a week ago. Witty banter, supporting cast, classic Spidey, and best of all: NO GALE! Everything was good about it, but I still feel each of these stories could have been told just as well if Pete and MJ were still married.

[Themanofbat]

The only issues of BND that I've really felt excitement for were the 3-issue story Wells did. Although, I did enjoy the BND Extra that came out a week ago. Witty banter, supporting cast, classic Spidey, and best of all: NO GALE! Everything was good about it, but I still feel each of these stories could have been told just as well if Pete and MJ were still married.


Of course any of these stories could have been told with a married Pete... btu as previously discussed, that's not the dynamic that Marvel Comics Inc. wanted for its flagship character.

And years down the road, epsecially in 2011 when Spidey IV comes out, Mary Jane can be easily written out of the script, or they can play on the tensions developped in Spidey III between them, and memories of their marriage could be a thing of the past to the Spidey readers of the day...

I guess we'll just have to wait'n see...

:yay:

[Tron Bonne]

And years down the road, epsecially in 2011 when Spidey IV comes out, Mary Jane can be easily written out of the script, or they can play on the tensions developped in Spidey III between them, and memories of their marriage could be a thing of the past to the Spidey readers of the day...

I doubt OMD will just fade away into memory. No doubt it'll be discussed less and overall most of the haters will settle into the status quo, but I think this a similar situation to Hal Jordan turning evil or Superboy-Prime rectonning relaity by punching it. Even though it may not a heated controversy anymore I think most people will still remember it and some talk will still whimmer about of it.

With that said I am enjoying BND quite a lot, besides the terrible Freak arc it's all ranged from simply great (Slott's arcs) to at least pretty good even if somewhat out of nowhere (like the current arc). Plus I've liked most of the new villians, especially Screwball.

[arachnid-guy]

Anyone see this yet?

Romita's art...wow....

mustnotbuythisarc jesus, it's making me want it, if only [in my mind] a What If?

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/895/895914/amazing-spider-man-20080801041626274_640w.jpg





http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/895/895914/amazing-spider-man-20080801041647695_640w.jpg


http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/895/895914/amazing-spider-man-20080801041719693_640w.jpg

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/895/895914/amazing-spider-man-20080801041721771_640w.jpg

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/893/893031/amazing-spider-man-20080723102742713_640w.jpg

[imdaly]

JRjr is a legend. :) :up:

[Tron Bonne]

Anyone see this yet?

Romita's art...wow....

mustnotbuythisarc jesus, it's making me want it, if only [in my mind] a What If?

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/895/895914/amazing-spider-man-20080801041626274_640w.jpg





http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/895/895914/amazing-spider-man-20080801041647695_640w.jpg


http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/895/895914/amazing-spider-man-20080801041719693_640w.jpg

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/895/895914/amazing-spider-man-20080801041721771_640w.jpg

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/893/893031/amazing-spider-man-20080723102742713_640w.jpg

Looks to be good stuff. Wonder who this Anti-Venom is. Eddie Brock, perhaps?

[J. J. Jameson]

Looks to be good stuff. Wonder who this Anti-Venom is. Eddie Brock, perhaps?

EDIT: Nevermind.

Either way, JR JR's art is astounding. I really, really, really want this story to be good.

[Tron Bonne]

Either way, JR JR's art is astounding. I really, really, really want this story to be good.

Slott is writing this right? He's been the best parts of BND so far so I'm sure it'll at least be good

[YJ1]

JRjr is a legend. :) :up:

I haven't picked up one issue since I joined the "boycott the BND stupidity" but that JRjr artwork above may just pull me back in. DAMN, that's sweet. (This is the longest I've gone in my life without reading a Spider-Man book.)

Are any of the real haters of BND that dropped the book that have returned enjoying it anyway?

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by Themanofbat View Post
I'm not saying the "current" stories are working better... just that Spider-Man stories in general work better when Peter Parker is single... like Batman working better as a loner than with teammates.

Peters best and most standout stories have all been amplified and driven by the loved ones in peters life. Peter has had VERY VERY little single time in the marvel universe, most of the silver age was with gwen and a bit with MJ, then with felicia/black cat, then married...

hell even in high school he dated liz and betty, and deb. So how exactly can you say a single spidey is a better spidey? he's only been single less then 10% of his comic lifespan (if that).

[fifthfiend]

Because he's TMOB, that's how.

Maybe I'll give this a look. I mean it's only been 2/3 of 3 years' worth of a standard comics run, maybe now they'll finally start to introduce the idea of potentially filling some plotholes. Venom/Auntie Venom look retarded but Norman radiates menace and that cover is the hard **** for real.

[CaptainStacy]

Anyone see this yet?

Romita's art...wow....


It just feels so right somehow...doesnt it? :word:

[Kitsune]

To be fair, some of the BND books have been bland as well, but I'm feeling some real excitement in ASM for the first time in years...

:huh: :huh: :huh:

That makes one of us.

[Kitsune]

JRjr is a legend. :) :up:

Meh.... I'm not all that impressed with his art.... the square jaws make everyone look alike.

[spideyboy_1111]

Meh.... I'm not all that impressed with his art.... the square jaws make everyone look alike.

agrees... and all his women tend to look the same to me... he's far inferior to his father i think.

[J. J. Jameson]

It just feels so right somehow...doesnt it? :word:

Yeah...like, "Now that's a Spider-Man book!"

[iloveclones]

Peters best and most standout stories have all been amplified and driven by the loved ones in peters life. Peter has had VERY VERY little single time in the marvel universe, most of the silver age was with gwen and a bit with MJ, then with felicia/black cat, then married...

hell even in high school he dated liz and betty, and deb. So how exactly can you say a single spidey is a better spidey? he's only been single less then 10% of his comic lifespan (if that).


I know this is a very 20-something confusion, but if he's un-married, he's single. You either check Married or Single when you file taxes. There is no box for With a Girlfriend.

I know what you're saying, but you mean "not in a relationship", not "single."

[venom892]

Anyone see this yet?

Romita's art...wow....

mustnotbuythisarc jesus, it's making me want it, if only [in my mind] a What If?

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/895/895914/amazing-spider-man-20080801041626274_640w.jpg





http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/895/895914/amazing-spider-man-20080801041647695_640w.jpg


http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/895/895914/amazing-spider-man-20080801041719693_640w.jpg

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/895/895914/amazing-spider-man-20080801041721771_640w.jpg

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/893/893031/amazing-spider-man-20080723102742713_640w.jpg
The pairing Of Romita Jr.{In my top 5 fav artists of all time} and Slott has me really tempted.But I Know I can resist.

[arachnid-guy]

The pairing Of Romita Jr.{In my top 5 fav artists of all time} and Slott has me really tempted.But I Know I can resist.

I...am....being swayed. :csad:

It just feels so right somehow...doesnt it?

Yep. I read some of JMS/Romita early run last night and...well, he's the best modern Spidey artist ive decided. His Spider-Man is....epic.

[spideyboy_1111]

I know this is a very 20-something confusion, but if he's un-married, he's single. You either check Married or Single when you file taxes. There is no box for With a Girlfriend.

I know what you're saying, but you mean "not in a relationship", not "single."

i consider single no commitment. And if your dating someone and committed to them, i don't consider that single. I could careless what the government calls it, because all that is, is a legal document that can tie your taxes together. All in all if your seriously dating someone, and have been for a while.. the only thing separating you from marriage is a paper. If you can tell a story with peter having a girlfriend, you can tell the same damn story with a wife.

[TheCorpulent1]

JR Jr.'s art is excellent. His Spidey looks more energetic than he has in years, too. :up:

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

You either check Married or Single when you file taxes. There is no box for With a Girlfriend.

Thats not true in every state.

11 states and the District of Colombia recognize "Common Law" marriage as a filling status on your taxes.

[arachnid-guy]

JR Jr.'s art is excellent. His Spidey looks more energetic than he has in years, too. :up:

He does a VERY good energetic Spidey. Sometimes I think his faces were better on the work he did years ago- but hey. Definitely his "Superheroes" are his best work, imo.

I like how he can convey a mood by using the whole body- like Peter clutching his head with his whole body. An elongated sense of his anguish.
If that makes sense.

[spideyboy_1111]

im fine with his spidey, and sometimes his MJ, his close ups are always good... but as a character get's farther away the more they suffer from clone syndrome. look at the chick in the background during the symbiote fight... he draws nearly all his women like that.

[Themanofbat]

i consider single no commitment. And if your dating someone and committed to them, i don't consider that single. I could careless what the government calls it, because all that is, is a legal document that can tie your taxes together. All in all if your seriously dating someone, and have been for a while.. the only thing separating you from marriage is a paper. If you can tell a story with peter having a girlfriend, you can tell the same damn story with a wife.

If that's the case, then what's the difference with the new direction?

Pete & MJ have lived together these last 20 years...

:yay:

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

If that's the case, then what's the difference with the new direction?

Pete & MJ have lived together these last 20 years...

:yay:

Did they???

Has that been confirmed?????

I havent heard definitively that they lived together all those years in this "ALTERED" time line.

All I know for sure is that they continued dating after they didnt get married.

But I havent been following the books that tightly so I may have missed something.

[Tron Bonne]

Did they???

Has that been confirmed?????

I havent heard definitively that they lived together all those years in this "ALTERED" time line.

All I know for sure is that they continued dating after they didnt get married.

But I havent been following the books that tightly so I may have missed something.

I'm pretty sure it's not been confirmed in detail. If I remember correctly at the end of OMD at Harry's party Harry and Peter talk about Pete & MJ living together at some point before they broke up, but I don't think it's been talked about at all after that.

[spideyboy_1111]

If that's the case, then what's the difference with the new direction?

Pete & MJ have lived together these last 20 years...

:yay:

ugh, i duno the fact that there not together at all now? and peter is a pathetic guy who's acting 5-6 years younger then the age he is?

[spideyboy_1111]

I'm pretty sure it's not been confirmed in detail. If I remember correctly at the end of OMD at Harry's party Harry and Peter talk about Pete & MJ living together at some point before they broke up, but I don't think it's been talked about at all after that.

well one of them left the other at the alter too... by common sense one would assume that was the end of there relationship as well.

[imdaly]

Don't think that's ever been claimed as what happened. All we know (as far as I know) is that the wedding was supposed to happen and SOMETHING happened at one point that made it not happen....I think.

[Doc Destruction]

I love the vagueness. And the explanation that "all will be explained later". All that means is that they have no freaking idea how to pull this off, and they're waiting for someone to come up with a great idea.

[Themanofbat]

Did they???

Has that been confirmed?????

I havent heard definitively that they lived together all those years in this "ALTERED" time line.

All I know for sure is that they continued dating after they didnt get married.

But I havent been following the books that tightly so I may have missed something.

I love the vagueness. And the explanation that "all will be explained later". All that means is that they have no freaking idea how to pull this off, and they're waiting for someone to come up with a great idea.

In ASM #566 (came out a few weeks ago), Peter refers to his meeting up with Vermin (from the Death of Kraven storyline), and says to himself "This guy nearly killed me once right after Mary Jane and I moved in together", and since the Death of Kraven story happened a few issues after the "marriage" annual, then we can say for FACT that they moved in together as they did in the books.

Nothing "vague" about THAT statement.

:whatever: :whatever: :whatever:

:yay:

[TheCorpulent1]

If that's the case, then what's the difference with the new direction?

Pete & MJ have lived together these last 20 years...

:yay:
I never really cared either way about the marriage thing. I took issue with the fact that Peter made a faustian bargain to make May better against her wishes at the cost of a big piece of his adult life. That's the height of selfishness and immaturity.

[Doc Destruction]

And crappy writing.

[TheCorpulent1]

And crappy writing, thank you.

[Anubis]

Well, crappy editorial work mostly.

[TheCorpulent1]

No, dude, it was pretty bad writing. I guess on some level it was bad all around.

[Anubis]

Yeah, but this story wouldn't have even been written if it weren't for crap editorial mandates. So bad writing aside, this wouldn't even had happened had the EIC not gone and made him write it.

[Brainiac 8]

Pride in his writing should have motivated him to refuse to write it though.

[Anubis]

He did, but the need for a paycheck outways pride for smart people. Everybodys a whore except for the dead.

[Kitsune]

Yeah, but this story wouldn't have even been written if it weren't for crap editorial mandates. So bad writing aside, this wouldn't even had happened had the EIC not gone and made him write it.
Didn't Joe Q pretty much write that part?

[TheCorpulent1]

Joe Q had a lot of influence over the entire production of OMD. It was his baby. JMS just happened to be there.

[moraldeficiency]

Pride in his writing should have motivated him to refuse to write it though.

He did actually. That was a big point of contention, he asked his name to be taken off the thing entirely. Joey Q knew how bad that would look so he convinced JMS to keep his name on it (though now as a cowriter) so as to not sour things more. Since JMS wanted to work on Thor and the Twelve he didn't have much of a choice. Now knowing what attention whores writers are, you know he had to have had serious problems.

There are countless interviews about this and the level of involvent Joey Q forced into JMS' stories, including but probably not limited to: Sin's Past, the war at home, BiB and of course OMD.

[UK_Stu]

I always thought Sins past was JMS' idea, but JMS wanted the kids to be Peter's and it was the powers above that forced JMS to change the story to the debacle we know today.

[Anubis]

That's how it happened. The question becomes which do you prefer? The story ending up where the kids were Pete's.....or Norman banging Gwen? Personally, the kids being Peter's sounds a lot better to me.

[TheCorpulent1]

Yeah, that's how I've heard the story. To be honest, JMS' way would've been just as bad as what we got.

[Anubis]

Well, there would have definitely been some serious b***hing. particularly if nobody knew what could have been. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. In the end he probably shouldn't have even done it in the first place.

[Brainiac 8]

All in all, this is how it boils down:

JMS run was a nightmare
Joe Q is a hack EIC
JMS should have had more balls and stuck to his guns

[Anubis]

I wouldn't say JMS's run was a nightmare. I enjoyed it for the most part. Had me reading Spider-Man, and I don't even like Spider-Man. He had a few bumps in the road, but who knows how much better it could have been had the guy not had a hack EIC busting his balls with bad story ideas.

[Themanofbat]

Yeah, but this story wouldn't have even been written if it weren't for crap editorial mandates. So bad writing aside, this wouldn't even had happened had the EIC not gone and made him write it.

And the EIC only did what HIS bosses wanted... a non-married Spider-Man...

You people seem to think that this is all JQ's fault, when all he did was have enough stones as an EIC to do what Marvel Comics Inc. has wanted for the last 15 years...

You want to get mad at someone... blame Marvel Comics Inc... not just JQ.

:whatever: :whatever: :whatever:

[Brainiac 8]

I wouldn't say JMS's run was a nightmare. I enjoyed it for the most part. Had me reading Spider-Man, and I don't even like Spider-Man. He had a few bumps in the road, but who knows how much better it could have been had the guy not had a hack EIC busting his balls with bad story ideas.


This I agree with actually. Who knows how much of the horrible storytelling (Sins past, Morlun, The Other, etc etc) were at the mandate of Joe Q. If OMD is any indication, then probably alot of it.

JMS should have pushed back some though. :o

[UK_Stu]

I wouldn't say JMS's run was a nightmare. I enjoyed it for the most part. Had me reading Spider-Man, and I don't even like Spider-Man. He had a few bumps in the road, but who knows how much better it could have been had the guy not had a hack EIC busting his balls with bad story ideas.

well, the point of my post was to illustrate that while its true JMS had problems with editorial and the EIC, if they hadn't stepped in when they did, we'd have some different but equally awful JMS stories. People see his run with such rose-tinted glasses.

[Anubis]

Well, that depends on what you liked about his run. I liked all of it except for Sins Past, the Other, and OMD. If you had a problem with the Totem stuff and Morlun, then I guess you did. I liked it. (up until the Other that is) He gave us a lot of really good stories. Digger, Spidey in the Avengers (waaayyy better than what Bendis was doing with him at the time.), That awesome Loki story he did. Hell, I even dug that new Molten Man he made. All that with only three missteps that may or may not have even been entirely his fault? Good enough for me. Beats the hell outta Mackie and Byrne. Hell, beats the boring s**t going on now.

[TheCorpulent1]

I liked everything up to Sins Past. After that, I think the only arc I really enjoyed was the New Avengers one.

[Brainiac 8]

A monkey beating on a typewriter beats out Mackie, so that isn't a good comarison. :o

[Anubis]

A monkey beating on a typewriter beats out Mackie, so that isn't a good comarison. :o

No, but it's a cool "comparison." Google tool bar has spell check. It's a good thing.

[TheCorpulent1]

My brain has spellcheck. :)

[Anubis]

And Herpes as I recall.

[moraldeficiency]

I wouldn't say JMS's run was a nightmare. I enjoyed it for the most part. Had me reading Spider-Man, and I don't even like Spider-Man. He had a few bumps in the road, but who knows how much better it could have been had the guy not had a hack EIC busting his balls with bad story ideas.

I agree, but admit it you hate everything, hater.

For the good we have:
the 9/11 issue
the birthday issue
the loki thing (who was suppose to be the guy for OMD)
the silent issue
the issue where pete confesses to May
the NA arc (still the best NA story to date)

Mixed bag:
Morlun
the Other
BiB
the war at home

Terrible:
Sin's Past (changed by Joey Q)
OMD (written by Joey Q)


And it wasn't higher powers, Joey Q has written and demanded things that have happened (smoking bans for example). Higher ups tried to change things with the clone saga and that went swimmingly. They might have wanted a single pete but they didn't make it happen Joey Q did.

Also I think people are forgetting the horrific state Spider-Man was in before this.

[Anubis]

I agree, but admit it you hate everything, hater.



Dude, I either like, or am totally indifferent. The only thing I hate is Company Fanboys and Cats.

[Brainiac 8]

No, but it's a cool "comparison." Google tool bar has spell check. It's a good thing.


I just type too quickly sometimes, plus I was on my way out to lunch when I wrote that...so there. :cmad:

[moraldeficiency]

Dude, I either like, or am totally indifferent. The only thing I hate is Company Fanboys and Cats.

I only hate whitey.

[Anubis]

I like his women.

[TheCorpulent1]

You're such a stereotype. :(

[Anubis]

I like your women too.

[moraldeficiency]

filipino midget hookers, FTW!

[Anubis]

They are my Kryptonite

[Brainiac 8]

I like his women.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/03/magazine_a_century_of_westerns/img/7.jpg

"Where all the white women at?"

:hehe:

[TheCorpulent1]

Interview with Wacker and Brevoort about BND, six months in (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17686)

Basically more of the same that we've been hearing. "If you hate OMD, shut up and go away," "sales are awesome," etc. Interesting to know that ASM is apparently ginormous with subscribers, though. I hadn't thought of how subscriptions affect sales, since all we ever see are the direct market lists.

[Anubis]

I called and had my subscription switched to Thor.

[moraldeficiency]

I consider subscribers for the most part to be the diehards or collectors, and they'll buy regardless. So they don't really count in my eyes. Anyone who would get a story they don't like just to fit a hole (insert your favorite hole filling joke here) can't really be an opinion any artist cares about.

[arachnid-guy]

Why do so many people hate The Other, again? I thought it was ''decent'' enough. There were bad points, sure: Morlun's unexplained return, the death of Spider-Man. But I thought the whole totemistic element was quite ambiguous and you could read into it whichever way you wanted?

I don't think it is AS bad as people make it out to be. But cue response discrediting my opinion....annnny time now. :P

[Anubis]

Aunt May in an Iron Man suit. That's all you need right there.