Superman VS Hulk in WWH

[David Rice]

Ok, I've been hearing alot of people say that the Hulk from World War Hulk could kick Superman's ass.

What do you think? Discuss.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I havent read any of WWH, but i hear he is more powerful than the normal incarnation. However, though i love both characters, i still think Supes' would win.

[Tron Bonne]

It'd be a good fight, War Hulk is pretty powerful and Superman is...well, Superman

[Omega Red]

Hulk cause the WWH is a lot wiser that any version

[Kevin Roegele]

Even if Hulk is a little bit stronger, Supes has all those other powers.

[Andy C.]

Smarter or not, Hulk still can't move nearly as fast as Superman, and considering they're arguably even in strength and durability, speed is the decisive factor.

Not saying Hulk would just go down like a chump; he's the friggin' Hulk, after all. But Big Blue still takes the win in my book.

[David Rice]

I agree! Superman would win, but some people I talk to don't think so.

[Andy C.]

Well, it's really up to who'd be writing the fight. If it's a Marvel fan, Hulk wins; if it's a DC fan, Superman wins. There's a billion and one ways to spin any vs. situation to the way you want it to go.

[PJBoy]

Superman of couse!!

[Omega Red]

Smarter or not, Hulk still can't move nearly as fast as Superman, and considering they're arguably even in strength and durability, speed is the decisive factor.

Not saying Hulk would just go down like a chump; he's the friggin' Hulk, after all. But Big Blue still takes the win in my book.

I dont know about that. Cause like anyone that would use speed there is a pattern. I think this Hulk would figure it out and hit Supes with a soup bone on his third pass

[David Rice]

I dont know about that. Cause like anyone that would use speed there is a pattern. I think this Hulk would figure it out and hit Supes with a soup bone on his third pass

There is one thing that most people are not taking into consideration. No matter how powerful or smart Hulk is he is still only human.

Superman is not human.

It's kinda like the time my friend tried to tell me Magneto could crush Superman with magnetic gravity. :whatever:

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Though i love both characters, Superman is just more powerful than Hulk IMO.

[KaptainKrypton]

I'm completely biased, but the question I have to ask:

Could the Hulk survive being thrown into the sun?

[nighthunter]

marvel has hulk's strength level listed as 100+ tons while DC never gave the exact measurement of Supe's strength level but they have shown him lifting fully-loaded jumbo jets, oceanliners, and they all weigh far beyond 100 tons.
so either superman will blind hulk with his heat vision then drag him into the earth's core or simply pull him into outer space and then punched him into the next galaxy.
but if you're a marvel writer, i'm sure there are ways for hulk to beat superman.

[Deadpool876]

speed is the decisive factor

Although I think Supes will win too, I chuckled at this 'coz I don't remember the boyscout used his super speed when he fought super-strong beings. Why is that? I can't recall him going super-fast punching or super-fast-dodging from strikes from a big fight with a super-strong villain. Maybe he's always holding back but that would be stupid, for not using super-speed. Maybe the writers want the fight to be dramatic or they want the villain to have a fighting chance.

I also don't recall Supes used super-speed in his epic battle against Doomsday. Maybe he did, someone refresh my memory.

Anyway, Supes vs. Hulk will be a damn great fight and I think in the end Supes will prevail! :yay:

[Andy C.]

Maybe the writers want the fight to be dramatic or they want the villain to have a fighting chance.

I think you hit the nail on the head right there. Going all-out and using the full potential of his powers, I can't think of anyone save cosmic-level folks who'd stand a chance against Superman.

[Matt]

But one could argue Clark does not want to go all out as he is fully aware of what his powers are capable of. Therefore, he takes it easy on his enemies, at risk to himself, in order to protect them. Seems like an attitude Supes would have.

As for this fight...it depends which book it is in. In The Incredible Hulk, Hulk would win. In Superman, Superman would win :cwink: But really, isn't this a bit of a biased place for the poll? Put it in misc comics if you want to get an accurate assessment.

[iron_spartan]

I think Hulk would get extremely angry and get so strong that he would rip Superman apart and destroy everything else in his path.

[larryfilmmaker]

Well, it's really up to who'd be writing the fight. If it's a Marvel fan, Hulk wins; if it's a DC fan, Superman wins. There's a billion and one ways to spin any vs. situation to the way you want it to go.

Very true... and here is a good example of that:


I dont know about that. Cause like anyone that would use speed there is a pattern. I think this Hulk would figure it out and hit Supes with a soup bone on his third pass.

[David Rice]

I think Hulk would get extremely angry and get so strong that he would rip Superman apart and destroy everything else in his path.

Do you know anything about Superman? I think not! :whatever:

[Infinity9999x]

Is Superman back at PreCrisis power levels again? Because if he is, then I'd have to say that Superman would pwn Hulk, simply because PreCrisis Supes could juggle planets as easy as a clown would tennis balls.

Now, if Supes isn't at that level, then I'd say it'd be a close match. I know Hulk is supposed to be much more powerful then he's ever been.

While I do think that, if it was a real fight with no prejudices, Superman would win because of his Super Speed which Hulk lacks. The problem with this is many writers overlook this power, most likely on purpose, because if Supes used his speed regularly he would beat pretty much everyone, and that would be just boring.

[Andy C.]

I don't know if Superman's quite at the level he was pre-Crisis, but he's strong enough to shove the moon around again. I don't recall ever seeing Hulk lift nearly that much (though I could be wrong) So even if you're talking about the thing Hulk does best, Superman's still got him outclassed.

Really, if you want someone who can be an even match for Superman, you'd have to use someone with strength and speed, like Sentry or Captain Marvel.

[SuperDaniel]

All Superman needs to do is throw Hulk in space.

Hulk is no match for the man of steel. Heat vision, flight, etc.

[ssj wolverine]

No matter what incarnation the Hulk is, he is a joke to Pre-Crisis Supes.

[David Rice]

All Superman needs to do is throw Hulk in space.

Hulk is no match for the man of steel. Heat vision, flight, etc.

I guess he is much stronger now and has new powers. Some people are saying he can take big blue, but I don't so.

No matter what incarnation the Hulk is, he is a joke to Pre-Crisis Supes.

You got that right, but some people would argue with ya. The biggest thing in the back of my mind is most times Superman holds back. Just look at Superboy Prime, he ripped people's arms off for god sakes!

[Deadpool876]

Superman would win because of his Super Speed which Hulk lacks. The problem with this is many writers overlook this power, most likely on purpose, because if Supes used his speed regularly he would beat pretty much everyone, and that would be just boring.

Damn right!

[Redwolf]

Although I think Supes will win too, I chuckled at this 'coz I don't remember the boyscout used his super speed when he fought super-strong beings. Why is that? I can't recall him going super-fast punching or super-fast-dodging from strikes from a big fight with a super-strong villain. Maybe he's always holding back but that would be stupid, for not using super-speed. Maybe the writers want the fight to be dramatic or they want the villain to have a fighting chance.

I also don't recall Supes used super-speed in his epic battle against Doomsday. Maybe he did, someone refresh my memory.

Anyway, Supes vs. Hulk will be a damn great fight and I think in the end Supes will prevail! :yay:

The entire battle with Doomsday back in the early 90's happened at superspeed. In the Doomsday Rex storyline Superman became intangable by vibrating his molecules so fast Doomsdays fist when through Superman not even harming Supes.

Also Read the Our Worlds at War trade paperbacks, Superman battles the Imperiex probes at superspeed punching, dodging etc. There are plenty of battles with Superman using his super speed.

[Redwolf]

Okay once and for all, Hulk even WWH cannot defeat Superman. Lets see what the Hulk is up against in battle with Superman....

Superman's speed..able to move at 99% the speed of light within earth's atmosphere. He's been shown faster in outer space.

Superman's heat vision is as hot as the core of a star!!

Superman's strength...under normal power levels he can push the moon. The greatest strength/lifting feat by Hulk was bracing part of a large mountain. What the Hulk braces was 150 tons of mass. The moon is far heavier than part of a large mountain.

Superman's strength is so powerful that..

(Superman and Kal-L hit each other once and destroyed Earth 2) or "shattering the boundaries of space and time" with strength alone (again, against Kal-L) -- hitting so hard that Elseworld versions of himself appear (Superman IC TPB).

Imperiex, at the conclusion of the Our Worlds at War story arc, had absorbed suffcient power to destroy the universe (and chain react the destruction of the multiverse). Imperiex, as Our Worlds at War Secret Files and Origins showed, was God's cosmic agent of universal creation and destruction -- Imperiex was the Big Bang, essentially.

(OT: Brainiac had this power trapped inside himself; Imperiex chose the sundipped Superman to break Imperiex out of Brainiac's cell. Later, Superman outmuscled the Imperiex-powered B-13. That should tell you just how powerful sundipped Superman was in that arc -- Superman was powerful enough to break a cell that a Big Bang level force could not; Superman was powerful enough to outmuscle B-13/Imperiex's "full counter thrusters!")

Imperiex's Probes were not as powerful as Imperiex himself. Nevertheless, an entire army of "solar converted" Daxamites could not put a single dent into a Probe. Only Superman, Doomsday and Zod managed to destroy Probes with their bare hands -- the rest had to use magical artifacts (Wonder Woman's shield and lasso, the Trident of Poseidon) or advanced tech (B-13 based nuclear tanks).

Initially, Superman needed intensive training and a power boost to so much as hang with a Probe in a fight -- a Probe who very casually threw Mongul across the galaxy.

Superman's invunerability is up there aswell.

Recent Superman in May's Action Comics, flies from Vega to Earth in seconds, or light years from a spaceship to the inside of a Sun Eater. He wades through Earth's assembled alien forces (J'onn, Powergirl, Kilowog, etc) in a matter of panels. One shots Despero with heat vision. And has his power depleted and is thrown through Earth and into its core and survives, as well as survives a 700 light year anti-matter explosion when power depleted.

What is World War Hulk going to do against recent Superman, when recent Superman is depicted as that powerful? In my opinion, nothing but lose.

On average, Superman simply operates on a much higher scale than Marvel characters, including Hulk -- especially recently.

Also, Superman's greatest asset over the Hulk, super intelligence. After Superman gets his powers back from being powerless for that one year after the Infinite Crisis, his intelligence has increased. Everything in his brain has been accelerated and amped up.

The greatest feat Hulk has done is destroying an asteroid twice the size of earth.

As a high end feat, this is very impressive for the Hulk. However, it does not compare to Superman's high end feats, such as:

1) Atomizing Earth 2 as the collateral damage of hitting, and being hit by, Kal-L; that is, the planet received no hit, but was simply destroyed as a collateral effect of a single punch on the two combatants' bodies. (Superman Infinite Crisis TPB)

2) Holding a black hole in one hand; then producing sufficient static electricity (via rubbing his hands) for Green Lantern to corral into a temporary containment force; then actually throwing the black hole into another black hole. (JLA 81 or 82)

(Incidentally black holes are the collapsed remains of super-massive stars that have, at minimum, the mass of at least 30 of our Sun, according to modern science.)

3) "Shattering the boundaries of space and time" by way of his fight against Kal-L; that is, hitting each other so hard that: 1) Superman and Kal-L actually switch into the past, present and future of each other's lives; 2) Elseworld versions of themselves actually manifested in time and space. (Superman Infinite Crisis TPB)

4) Superman reverses the vibratory pattern of an entire alternate Earth; does so from high orbit; that is, not even touching the planet. (Adventures of Superman Cannibal Planet issue)

5) Superman and Kal-L, who came up equal in their fight, manhandle Superboy Prime across galaxies and force him through Krypton's Sun. Superboy Prime, it was said and shown, was strong enough to move planets as easily as someone moves "chess pieces." (Infinite Crisis)

Superman splitting "a small Saturnian moon" in Lex 2000; or nearly knocking the Moon out of orbit merely by pounding on it (as one would pound on a table) while sick from Kryptonite poisoning (Til Death Do Us Part TPB).

When Superman and Flash last raced, Flash explained that, were Superman stopped dead in his tracks, it would destroy everything between the Flash's city and Moscow. That's a far larger tract of land than the Rockies -- it's an immense chunk of the planet.

Superman broke through a dome powerful enough to contain a nuclear blast with a stray backhand when he fought the Eradicator.

Superman also punched Bizarro through the planet, from Metropolis to China, in one hit.

[Metropolis_Man]

It'd be a helluva battle. I think Supes would come out on top though. Unless they blasted Hulk full of kyrptonite instead of gamma radiation, then Superman would be nothing but pulp.

[David Rice]

Okay once and for all, Hulk even WWH cannot defeat Superman. Lets see what the Hulk is up against in battle with Superman....

Superman's speed..able to move at 99% the speed of light within earth's atmosphere. He's been shown faster in outer space.

Superman's heat vision is as hot as the core of a star!!

Superman's strength...under normal power levels he can push the moon. The greatest strength/lifting feat by Hulk was bracing part of a large mountain. What the Hulk braces was 150 tons of mass. The moon is far heavier than part of a large mountain.

Superman's strength is so powerful that..

(Superman and Kal-L hit each other once and destroyed Earth 2) or "shattering the boundaries of space and time" with strength alone (again, against Kal-L) -- hitting so hard that Elseworld versions of himself appear (Superman IC TPB).

Imperiex, at the conclusion of the Our Worlds at War story arc, had absorbed suffcient power to destroy the universe (and chain react the destruction of the multiverse). Imperiex, as Our Worlds at War Secret Files and Origins showed, was God's cosmic agent of universal creation and destruction -- Imperiex was the Big Bang, essentially.

(OT: Brainiac had this power trapped inside himself; Imperiex chose the sundipped Superman to break Imperiex out of Brainiac's cell. Later, Superman outmuscled the Imperiex-powered B-13. That should tell you just how powerful sundipped Superman was in that arc -- Superman was powerful enough to break a cell that a Big Bang level force could not; Superman was powerful enough to outmuscle B-13/Imperiex's "full counter thrusters!")

Imperiex's Probes were not as powerful as Imperiex himself. Nevertheless, an entire army of "solar converted" Daxamites could not put a single dent into a Probe. Only Superman, Doomsday and Zod managed to destroy Probes with their bare hands -- the rest had to use magical artifacts (Wonder Woman's shield and lasso, the Trident of Poseidon) or advanced tech (B-13 based nuclear tanks).

Initially, Superman needed intensive training and a power boost to so much as hang with a Probe in a fight -- a Probe who very casually threw Mongul across the galaxy.

Superman's invunerability is up there aswell.

Recent Superman in May's Action Comics, flies from Vega to Earth in seconds, or light years from a spaceship to the inside of a Sun Eater. He wades through Earth's assembled alien forces (J'onn, Powergirl, Kilowog, etc) in a matter of panels. One shots Despero with heat vision. And has his power depleted and is thrown through Earth and into its core and survives, as well as survives a 700 light year anti-matter explosion when power depleted.

What is World War Hulk going to do against recent Superman, when recent Superman is depicted as that powerful? In my opinion, nothing but lose.

On average, Superman simply operates on a much higher scale than Marvel characters, including Hulk -- especially recently.

Also, Superman's greatest asset over the Hulk, super intelligence. After Superman gets his powers back from being powerless for that one year after the Infinite Crisis, his intelligence has increased. Everything in his brain has been accelerated and amped up.

The greatest feat Hulk has done is destroying an asteroid twice the size of earth.

As a high end feat, this is very impressive for the Hulk. However, it does not compare to Superman's high end feats, such as:

1) Atomizing Earth 2 as the collateral damage of hitting, and being hit by, Kal-L; that is, the planet received no hit, but was simply destroyed as a collateral effect of a single punch on the two combatants' bodies. (Superman Infinite Crisis TPB)

2) Holding a black hole in one hand; then producing sufficient static electricity (via rubbing his hands) for Green Lantern to corral into a temporary containment force; then actually throwing the black hole into another black hole. (JLA 81 or 82)

(Incidentally black holes are the collapsed remains of super-massive stars that have, at minimum, the mass of at least 30 of our Sun, according to modern science.)

3) "Shattering the boundaries of space and time" by way of his fight against Kal-L; that is, hitting each other so hard that: 1) Superman and Kal-L actually switch into the past, present and future of each other's lives; 2) Elseworld versions of themselves actually manifested in time and space. (Superman Infinite Crisis TPB)

4) Superman reverses the vibratory pattern of an entire alternate Earth; does so from high orbit; that is, not even touching the planet. (Adventures of Superman Cannibal Planet issue)

5) Superman and Kal-L, who came up equal in their fight, manhandle Superboy Prime across galaxies and force him through Krypton's Sun. Superboy Prime, it was said and shown, was strong enough to move planets as easily as someone moves "chess pieces." (Infinite Crisis)

Superman splitting "a small Saturnian moon" in Lex 2000; or nearly knocking the Moon out of orbit merely by pounding on it (as one would pound on a table) while sick from Kryptonite poisoning (Til Death Do Us Part TPB).

When Superman and Flash last raced, Flash explained that, were Superman stopped dead in his tracks, it would destroy everything between the Flash's city and Moscow. That's a far larger tract of land than the Rockies -- it's an immense chunk of the planet.

Superman broke through a dome powerful enough to contain a nuclear blast with a stray backhand when he fought the Eradicator.

Superman also punched Bizarro through the planet, from Metropolis to China, in one hit.

This debate is now over!

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

At a convention back in the late 80's I asked Stan "THE MAN" Lee this same question and he answered that if it was just a strength issue that it would be the Hulk.Because the way he wrote it....The Hulk had no limits to his strenght.The mader he got the stronger he got.....but since Superman had so many other powers most likely be Superman.

[David Rice]

At a convention back in the late 80's I asked Stan "THE MAN" Lee this same question and he answered that if it was just a strength issue that it would be the Hulk. Because the way he wrote it....The Hulk had no limits to his strenght.The mader he got the stronger he got.....but since Superman had so many other powers most likely be Superman.

Of course he would say the Hulk. Everyone seems to forget that Hulk is still only human.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Of course he would say the Hulk. Everyone seems to forget that Hulk is still only human.

Being human has nothing to do with it.I firmly beleave that given the right amount of planning and time that ether Batman of Lex could beet Superman.As long as they dont let their ego's get in the way.And as long as Superman isnt in the control of someone else.

[David Rice]

Being human has nothing to do with it.I firmly beleave that given the right amount of planning and time that ether Batman of Lex could beet Superman. As long as they dont let their ego's get in the way.And as long as Superman isnt in the control of someone else.

What are we talking about?

We are taling about the Hulk, not Batman or Lex Luthor... of course they could beat Superman, Batman has already done it.

I'm talking about strength, speed, ect. There is no way a human could beat Superman with strength or any other pure force without Kryptonite. It's like Spiderman trying to fight Thor.

[Andy C.]

What are we talking about?

We are taling about the Hulk, not Batman or Lex Luthor... of course they could beat Superman, Batman has already done it.

I'm talking about strength, speed, ect. There is no way a human could beat Superman with strength or any other pure force without Kryptonite. It's like Spiderman trying to fight Thor.

When exactly in continuity did Batman ever beat Superman? DKR is an Elseworld, the fight in Hush ended in a draw, and the one in Sacrifice ended with Batman half-dead.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

What are we talking about?

We are taling about the Hulk, not Batman or Lex Luthor... of course they could beat Superman, Batman has already done it.

I'm talking about strength, speed, ect. There is no way a human could beat Superman with strength or any other pure force without Kryptonite. It's like Spiderman trying to fight Thor.

What I'm sayin is that you keep sayin that no human gould beat him and I'm just pointing out that a human could indeed do it.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

When exactly in continuity did Batman ever beat Superman? DKR is an Elseworld, the fight in Hush ended in a draw, and the one in Sacrifice ended with Batman half-dead.

When it come to these kind of fights you cant be a slave to continuity.As it stands DC would not put Bat's in a fight with Sup's in a story that didnt take place outside of continuity or didnt at least have one or the other of these guys not in their right minds.

[David Rice]

What I'm sayin is that you keep sayin that no human gould beat him and I'm just pointing out that a human could indeed do it.

No, I didn't say that. Did you even read my post?

And by the way being human has everything to do with it. Do you want to see what he could and would do to someone if he was evil? Go read some of stories about Superboy Prime.

[David Rice]

When exactly in continuity did Batman ever beat Superman? DKR is an Elseworld, the fight in Hush ended in a draw, and the one in Sacrifice ended with Batman half-dead.

Hush ended in a draw? I think not Sir, go read it again. :cwink:

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

No, I didn't say that. Did you even read my post?

And by the way being human has everything to do with it. Do you want to see what he could and would do to someone if he was evil? Go read some of stories about Superboy Prime.

Your right I did miss read your post....when you said [Everyone seems to forget that Hulk is still only human] I thought you were trying to say that nobody human could beat him.
But I dont get your meaning about being human having every thing to do with it and Superboy Prime.Althou I'm sure that he could kill many.....I could think of a few agumented humans that would beat him.

[David Rice]

Your right I did miss read your post....when you said [Everyone seems to forget that Hulk is still only human] I thought you were trying to say that nobody human could beat him. But I dont get your meaning about being human having every thing to do with it and Superboy Prime. Althou I'm sure that he could kill many.....I could think of a few agumented humans that would beat him.

Not that post, this one:

I'm talking about strength, speed, ect. There is no way a human could beat Superman with strength or any other pure force without Kryptonite. It's like Spiderman trying to fight Thor.

How can a mortal beat a god? How can a human (without a plan or some Kryptonite) beat Superman?

Most of the time Superman is holding back when he fights enemies. He's being the "boy scout".

agumented humans? Such as?

Go read Infinite Crisis, then you'll get it. If you want to know just how powerful Superman is then you might even try reading post #28 in this thread.

[Andy C.]

When it come to these kind of fights you cant be a slave to continuity.As it stands DC would not put Bat's in a fight with Sup's in a story that didnt take place outside of continuity or didnt at least have one or the other of these guys not in their right minds.

Slave to continuity or not, you've got to have some sort of standard as to what counts and what doesn't; otherwise, you might as well throw in fan-fics.

Hush ended in a draw? I think not Sir, go read it again. :cwink:

I did read it. Several times. Batman gets in a few pot-shots with the K-ring, then spends pretty much the entire rest of the fight stalling for time so Catwoman could chuck Lois off of a building right before Supes would have crushed him. So yeah, Batman gets points for getting Clark to break Ivy's brainwashing and therefore ending the fight, but I'd hardly call that 'defeating' Superman.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Not that post, this one:

I'm talking about strength, speed, ect. There is no way a human could beat Superman with strength or any other pure force without Kryptonite. It's like Spiderman trying to fight Thor.

How can a mortal beat a god? How can a human (without a plan or some Kryptonite) beat Superman?

Most of the time Superman is holding back when he fights enemies. He's being the "boy scout".

agumented humans? Such as?

Go read Infinite Crisis, then you'll get it. If you want to know just how powerful Superman is then you might even try reading post #28 in this thread.

I've read Infinite Crisis and its not on point.And Superman is not a god, he is a mortal from a different planet.As for agumented human's....since we are talking about crossing universes in this topic...I could see a Captin Universe impowered Captain America could do the job.
And I could see a team of not so powerfull heros could gang up and get the job done as well.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Slave to continuity or not, you've got to have some sort of standard as to what counts and what doesn't; otherwise, you might as well throw in fan-fics.


My standard is wether or not it ever made it to print by DC comics.And the fact is that it has.In more then one story Batman has beaten Superman but I'll admit Superman was holding back a bit each time or was weekend by some other issue.

[Andy C.]

My standard is wether or not it ever made it to print by DC comics.And the fact is that it has.In more then one story Batman has beaten Superman but I'll admit Superman was holding back a bit each time or was weekend by some other issue.

By that standard, however, I could also say that Batman is a Green Lantern (In Darkest Knight) and a vampire (Batman and Dracula) and set in the early 1900s (Gotham by Gaslight). Or that Superman grew up in the Soviet Union (Red Son) and an Amish village (JLA: The Nail), and is immune to Kryptonite (Kingdom Come).

The Elseworld stories can't count because they intentionally tweak defining features of the characters. That's the whole point of them: telling how (x) might happen if (y) was different. And using them as a reference point for the mainline universe doesn't really make sense.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

By that standard, however, I could also say that Batman is a Green Lantern (In Darkest Knight) and a vampire (Batman and Dracula) and set in the early 1900s (Gotham by Gaslight). Or that Superman grew up in the Soviet Union (Red Son) and an Amish village (JLA: The Nail), and is immune to Kryptonite (Kingdom Come).

The Elseworld stories can't count because they intentionally tweak defining features of the characters. That's the whole point of them: telling how (x) might happen if (y) was different. And using them as a reference point for the mainline universe doesn't really make sense.

First of all to be 100% correct THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS when written was not a Elseworlds book but has been added to the line up as a way of appeasing the fan's..It was not even written to be a alternate version of Batman.It was written to be a posible future for the Batman but not the deffinitive one.It dosnt fit into the catogories you have listed with those other titals.But the point I was trying to make is that Batman has beat Superman in a other story that had no connection to any elseworls story....but I'm not sure if its in continuity any more.The DC cross over story was called Armageddon 2001 and to make a long story short Waverider traveled into the past looking for the hero that would become the bad guy Monarch of the future.He went to each Hero of the DCU and looked into their posible future's to see if it was he who became Monarch.When he got to Superman he saw a future in witch Superman had become very recless and apperied to had killed some U.S. Sailors
in a ship he sunk.Batman was then sent by the Presz to deal with Superman and Batman kills him.I know it was ment a a posible future and since that future didnt happen yet most of you guys will say that it dosnt count or its not in continuity but at the time it was in continuity and was ment to take place in a posible future.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

By that standard, however, I could also say that Batman is a Green Lantern (In Darkest Knight) and a vampire (Batman and Dracula) and set in the early 1900s (Gotham by Gaslight). Or that Superman grew up in the Soviet Union (Red Son) and an Amish village (JLA: The Nail), and is immune to Kryptonite (Kingdom Come).

The Elseworld stories can't count because they intentionally tweak defining features of the characters. That's the whole point of them: telling how (x) might happen if (y) was different. And using them as a reference point for the mainline universe doesn't really make sense.

Further more all these exsamples [save for Kingdom Come] were ment to take place Batman outside the norm.They were ment to be different takes on the story of Batman.Unlike KC and TDKR witch can easly fit into the mainstream univers as a possible future with out causing to much confusion to continuity issue's.

[David Rice]

I've read Infinite Crisis and its not on point.And Superman is not a god, he is a mortal from a different planet.As for agumented human's....since we are talking about crossing universes in this topic...I could see a Captin Universe impowered Captain America could do the job.
And I could see a team of not so powerfull heros could gang up and get the job done as well.

You've read Infinite Crisis and you believe that? OOOOOOOOK!:whatever:

We are not even on topic anymore.

[David Rice]

I did read it. Several times. Batman gets in a few pot-shots with the K-ring, then spends pretty much the entire rest of the fight stalling for time so Catwoman could chuck Lois off of a building right before Supes would have crushed him. So yeah, Batman gets points for getting Clark to break Ivy's brainwashing and therefore ending the fight, but I'd hardly call that 'defeating' Superman.


Alright, that's a pretty fair assessment. I guess a better word would be out-smarted. :cwink:

[Andy C.]

First of all to be 100% correct THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS when written was not a Elseworlds book but has been added to the line up as a way of appeasing the fan's..It was not even written to be a alternate version of Batman.It was written to be a posible future for the Batman but not the deffinitive one.It dosnt fit into the catogories you have listed with those other titals.But the point I was trying to make is that Batman has beat Superman in a other story that had no connection to any elseworls story....but I'm not sure if its in continuity any more.The DC cross over story was called Armageddon 2001 and to make a long story short Waverider traveled into the past looking for the hero that would become the bad guy Monarch of the future.He went to each Hero of the DCU and looked into their posible future's to see if it was he who became Monarch.When he got to Superman he saw a future in witch Superman had become very recless and apperied to had killed some U.S. Sailors
in a ship he sunk.Batman was then sent by the Presz to deal with Superman and Batman kills him.I know it was ment a a posible future and since that future didnt happen yet most of you guys will say that it dosnt count or its not in continuity but at the time it was in continuity and was ment to take place in a posible future.


I'm well aware that DKR was not originally meant to be an Elseworlds title, but even in its original 'possible future' status, it's still not consistent with the characterization of either Batman or Superman (mainly because Frank Miller can't write Superman worth a damn) And it was never meant to be in continuity.

And by its very definition, a 'possible future,' whether it's DKR or Armageddon 2001, can't count as a reference point; it'd be like if I defined X-Men all by 'Days of the Future Past.'

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

You've read Infinite Crisis and you believe that? OOOOOOOOK!:whatever:

We are not even on topic anymore.

Think about if Superman were to ever go evil he could do far more damage then Superboy Prime did.He was acting like a spoiled brat and was holding back.Superboy Prime is should be the equal [or pretty close] to Pre-1st CRISIS.With that kind of power he could have eaten this planet if he wanted.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I'm well aware that DKR was not originally meant to be an Elseworlds title, but even in its original 'possible future' status, it's still not consistent with the characterization of either Batman or Superman (mainly because Frank Miller can't write Superman worth a damn) And it was never meant to be in continuity.

And by its very definition, a 'possible future,' whether it's DKR or Armageddon 2001, can't count as a reference point; it'd be like if I defined X-Men all by 'Days of the Future Past.'

I dont see your connection to X-Mens days of futurs past. I.M.O. it isnt that hard to get a feel for the nature of the character's in that book......I beleave it was truer to the sourse then TDKR.Continuity in comic books and DC in particular is in its own definition a parodox.I have had this kind of debate before:::Had Batman ever killed????Has he ever used a gun?????how many children has he fathered????It all changes at the wim of the publisher.Even the characterization of their hero's has fallen victom to this delema over the years ,even in book that are considered to be in continuity.
And if the characterization of these two hero's is your major point,and the way these two are written in resent day's, then Batman would beat Superman threw much planning and most likely with the help of a few others.The fact is by character,Superman is most likely to be holding back and not truly be fighting at fuul power and he has more then one weekness that Batman can exploite.
Like I said DC will never put these two in a fight with each other that is in continuity while both hero's are in control of them selfs.

[David Rice]

Think about if Superman were to ever go evil he could do far more damage then Superboy Prime did. He was acting like a spoiled brat and was holding back. Superboy Prime is should be the equal [or pretty close] to Pre-1st CRISIS. With that kind of power he could have eaten this planet if he wanted.

Your post makes not sense. Why are you asking me to think about Superman going bad? I was the one who brought it up. I know he could far more damage then Prime, that was my point. What I don't get is how you think a few hyped-up humans could take Superman based on that very fact. :huh:

You think Prime was holding back? How many people did he kill? :whatever:

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Your post makes not sense. Why are you asking me to think about Superman going bad? I was the one who brought it up. I know he could far more damage then Prime, that was my point. What I don't get is how you think a few hyped-up humans could take Superman based on that very fact. :huh:

You think Prime was holding back? How many people did he kill? :whatever:


You must be getting my point confused.You said that if I want to see what a Evil Superman could do that I should look at what SBPrime did.And I was just stating that a truly evil SM could do far more damage then Prime did.And he was deffinatley holding back some.I dont know how long you've been reading DC comic's or Superman for that mater but Prime is from the time before the first crisis.He was soppose to be the equil of of pre crisis Superman.That SM juggled planets and moved the sun.I know it sounds silly but thats how it was.No mater how man people he killed he could have ripped this planel in half with out much effort.

[David Rice]

You must be getting my point confused.You said that if I want to see what a Evil Superman could do that I should look at what SBPrime did.And I was just stating that a truly evil SM could do far more damage then Prime did.And he was deffinatley holding back some.I dont know how long you've been reading DC comic's or Superman for that mater but Prime is from the time before the first crisis.He was soppose to be the equil of of pre crisis Superman.That SM juggled planets and moved the sun.I know it sounds silly but thats how it was.No mater how man people he killed he could have ripped this planel in half with out much effort.

No, I'm not getting your point confused, but I think you might be. You say that some hyped-up humans could take Superman, but then you agree that if he turned evil he would do far more damage than Prime. So if he could destory the planet then he must be holding back most of the time when he fights. That is the point I'm try to get across to you. I told you look at Prime because of what he did. That is only a small taste of his power. You keep contradicting youself on this issue.

We are going in a circle here. Let be put it in black and white for you:

1. Superman is Kryptonian and has alien DNA - because of this the normal laws of earth, gravity, physics, motion, ect. do not apply to him.

2. No matter what form Superman is in, he is always holding back. Thus, if he wanted to rip his enemies apart he could. Do you really think that if it meant the life of his wife or Jimmy he would not kill? If you think he wouldn't then you sir are wrong.

3. This started about the Hulk. No matter how powerful he has become in WWH, his is still human. Even if he is hyped-up, he is still human. The Hulk could and would not beat him with just strength or speed or pure force. It could not happen. His body has limits becuase he was born here on earth. Superman has limits too, but they are far beyond the Hulk's.

This is a list of Superman greatest feets put together by Redwolf:

1) Atomizing Earth 2 as the collateral damage of hitting, and being hit by, Kal-L; that is, the planet received no hit, but was simply destroyed as a collateral effect of a single punch on the two combatants' bodies. (Superman Infinite Crisis TPB)

2) Holding a black hole in one hand; then producing sufficient static electricity (via rubbing his hands) for Green Lantern to corral into a temporary containment force; then actually throwing the black hole into another black hole. (JLA 81 or 82)

(Incidentally black holes are the collapsed remains of super-massive stars that have, at minimum, the mass of at least 30 of our Sun, according to modern science.)

3) "Shattering the boundaries of space and time" by way of his fight against Kal-L; that is, hitting each other so hard that: 1) Superman and Kal-L actually switch into the past, present and future of each other's lives; 2) Elseworld versions of themselves actually manifested in time and space. (Superman Infinite Crisis TPB)

4) Superman reverses the vibratory pattern of an entire alternate Earth; does so from high orbit; that is, not even touching the planet. (Adventures of Superman Cannibal Planet issue)

5) Superman and Kal-L, who came up equal in their fight, manhandle Superboy Prime across galaxies and force him through Krypton's Sun. Superboy Prime, it was said and shown, was strong enough to move planets as easily as someone moves "chess pieces." (Infinite Crisis)

6) Superman flies from Vega to Earth in seconds, or light years from a spaceship to the inside of a Sun Eater. He wades through Earth's assembled alien forces (J'onn, Powergirl, Kilowog, etc) in a matter of panels. One shots Despero with heat vision. And has his power depleted and is thrown through Earth and into its core and survives, as well as survives a 700 light year anti-matter explosion when power depleted. (Action Comics)

I've been reading comics for a long time. I know all about Prime, I know how powerful he is. Some of the stuff in that list I already knew and I learned a couple of new things too. After reading that list, how anyone could think that a "hyped-up human" or a group of hyped-up humans could take him is beyond me. The only people in Marvel who could "get the job done" with just force is Thor or maybe Sentry.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

No, I'm not getting your point confused, but I think you might be. You say that some hyped-up humans could take Superman, but then you agree that if he turned evil he would do far more damage than Prime. So if he could destory the planet then he must be holding back most of the time when he fights. That is the point I'm try to get across to you. I told you look at Prime because of what he did. That is only a small taste of his power. You keep contradicting youself on this issue.

We are going in a circle here. Let be put it in black and white for you:

1. Superman is Kryptonian and has alien DNA - because of this the normal laws of earth, gravity, physics, motion, ect. do not apply to him.

2. No matter what form Superman is in, he is always holding back. Thus, if he wanted to rip his enemies apart he could. Do you really think that if it meant the life of his wife or Jimmy he would not kill? If you think he wouldn't then you sir are wrong.

3. This started about the Hulk. No matter how powerful he has become in WWH, his is still human. Even if he is hyped-up, he is still human. The Hulk could and would not beat him with just strength or speed or pure force. It could not happen. His body has limits becuase he was born here on earth. Superman has limits too, but they are far beyond the Hulk's.

This is a list of Superman greatest feets put together by Redwolf:

1) Atomizing Earth 2 as the collateral damage of hitting, and being hit by, Kal-L; that is, the planet received no hit, but was simply destroyed as a collateral effect of a single punch on the two combatants' bodies. (Superman Infinite Crisis TPB)

2) Holding a black hole in one hand; then producing sufficient static electricity (via rubbing his hands) for Green Lantern to corral into a temporary containment force; then actually throwing the black hole into another black hole. (JLA 81 or 82)

(Incidentally black holes are the collapsed remains of super-massive stars that have, at minimum, the mass of at least 30 of our Sun, according to modern science.)

3) "Shattering the boundaries of space and time" by way of his fight against Kal-L; that is, hitting each other so hard that: 1) Superman and Kal-L actually switch into the past, present and future of each other's lives; 2) Elseworld versions of themselves actually manifested in time and space. (Superman Infinite Crisis TPB)

4) Superman reverses the vibratory pattern of an entire alternate Earth; does so from high orbit; that is, not even touching the planet. (Adventures of Superman Cannibal Planet issue)

5) Superman and Kal-L, who came up equal in their fight, manhandle Superboy Prime across galaxies and force him through Krypton's Sun. Superboy Prime, it was said and shown, was strong enough to move planets as easily as someone moves "chess pieces." (Infinite Crisis)

6) Superman flies from Vega to Earth in seconds, or light years from a spaceship to the inside of a Sun Eater. He wades through Earth's assembled alien forces (J'onn, Powergirl, Kilowog, etc) in a matter of panels. One shots Despero with heat vision. And has his power depleted and is thrown through Earth and into its core and survives, as well as survives a 700 light year anti-matter explosion when power depleted. (Action Comics)

I've been reading comics for a long time. I know all about Prime, I know how powerful he is. Some of the stuff in that list I already knew and I learned a couple of new things too. After reading that list, how anyone could think that a "hyped-up human" or a group of hyped-up humans could take him is beyond me. The only people in Marvel who could "get the job done" with just force is Thor or maybe Sentry.

You are getting my point confused.And I'm not trying to argue with you at all.The question was never wether Superman had the power or abilitly to defeat WW Hulk or anybody else for that mater ,but wether we had the will.I'm fully aware that he's holding back in almost every fight he has ever had Doomsday and Darkside being the only time's I think he cut's loose.I agree with you that if Superman were ever to go evil that he would most likly be unstopable.......but the question in this topic was wether Superman could beat WWHulk not if a evil Superman could beat him.
And I never said that any hyped up human could beat Superman.....I said that a agumented human could and when you asked me like who I gave you my exsample......a Captin Universe empowered Captain America would most definatley be able to do the job.Captain Univeres's power's come from the Uni-Power witch emanates from the Enigma Force and if the need it is needed can sumon the sum total of the combined powers of all cosmic entities within the Marvel Univeres.
Now getting to the point of a group takeing Superman down.It would still have to be while Supe's was holding back some I'll admit.But we were never talking about a evil Superman.....just Superman the way he is potrayed in his regular book.Remember Supe's has more then one weekness.
As for Marvel charters alone......Thor is my altime fav Marvel charter but I dont think he would beat Superman evil or not but I'm shocked that you didnt add The Silver Surfer to your list.

[David Rice]

You are getting my point confused.And I'm not trying to argue with you at all.The question was never wether Superman had the power or abilitly to defeat WW Hulk or anybody else for that mater ,but wether we had the will.I'm fully aware that he's holding back in almost every fight he has ever had Doomsday and Darkside being the only time's I think he cut's loose.I agree with you that if Superman were ever to go evil that he would most likly be unstopable.......but the question in this topic was wether Superman could beat WWHulk not if a evil Superman could beat him.
And I never said that any hyped up human could beat Superman.....I said that a agumented human could and when you asked me like who I gave you my exsample......a Captin Universe empowered Captain America would most definatley be able to do the job. Captain Univeres's power's come from the Uni-Power witch emanates from the Enigma Force and if the need it is needed can sumon the sum total of the combined powers of all cosmic entities within the Marvel Univeres. Now getting to the point of a group takeing Superman down.It would still have to be while Supe's was holding back some I'll admit.But we were never talking about a evil Superman.....just Superman the way he is potrayed in his regular book.Remember Supe's has more then one weekness. As for Marvel charters alone......Thor is my altime fav Marvel charter but I dont think he would beat Superman evil or not but I'm shocked that you didnt add The Silver Surfer to your list.

Hyped up... agumented... same thing. As for this Captin Universe empowered Captain America thing... what are you talking about? You can't give Captain America powers he doesn't normally have. You can't give anyone powers that they don't currently have.

And I never said he would be evil. I was just giving a example of his power with the Superboy Prime thing and the other six examples. (which you ignored completely)

Thor is a god! I'm shocked you think he couldn't.

I have no idea where the Silver Surfer is in the Marvel Universe right now, that why I didin't put him in there.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Hyped up... agumented... same thing. As for this Captin Universe empowered Captain America thing... what are you talking about? You can't give Captain America powers he doesn't normally have. You can't give anyone powers that they don't currently have.



The nature of the Captain Univers power is different.In times of great need the power is bestowed opon some one.....and it could be anyone,Spiderman, Doctor Strange, Commander Arcturus Rann of the Micronauts,a baby ,a dog Mister Fantastic Captain Mar-vel and even a Doombot have all been granted the powers of Captain Universe at one time or universe.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Thor is a god! I'm shocked you think he couldn't.

I have no idea where the Silver Surfer is in the Marvel Universe right now, that why I didin't put him in there.

Dude Thor cant beat the Hulk.....He has been able to stand toe to toe for a long time frame but he never could beat him.The Hulk alway came out on top.And I have no idea where the Silver Surfer is these days ether.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

And I never said he would be evil. I was just giving a example of his power with the Superboy Prime thing and the other six examples. (which you ignored completely)

.

I didnt ignore it at all.It just wasnt need to prove my point [or your for that mater] Like I said I know that Superman has the strenth,speed and power to beat almost every body that we could think of putting him in a fight with it just that with his holding back all the time he just doednt have the will to really win the kind of fights were talking about here.
I think that some of you guys are so acustom to others tring to push their ideas on you that you think every body is like that.To me this is just a friendly debate.

[newmexneon]

Superman is my favorite hero but the Hulk is pretty much unstoppable right now. He tossed aside a full powered Juggernaut, broke Doctor Stranges hands and has pretty much smashed everyone that's stood in front of him so far. Superman may have the Speed and flight over Hulk but Hulk strength is vastly superior to Superman right now.

Hulk would win in his current state.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Superman is my favorite hero but the Hulk is pretty much unstoppable right now. He tossed aside a full powered Juggernaut, broke Doctor Stranges hands and has pretty much smashed everyone that's stood in front of him so far. Superman may have the Speed and flight over Hulk but Hulk strength is vastly superior to Superman right now.

Hulk would win in his current state.

Thats only if you count the current state of Supe's strenth.....and even then its debateble.Speed alone would make a hudge difference.Superman could move a such speeds that Hulk might not be able to even land a punch.
And if you think of Super's power level's in the past....most notebly Pre-Crisis Superman....Most likly the most powerful he has ever been.....jugguling planets,Moving the Sun,Displaceing a Black hole,speeds faster then the speed of light,Not having to breath in space at all,Moving fast enough to reverse time its self.No Hulk to date would have been able to stand against that Superman.
But the current Hulk vers the curent Superman would be a good fight but the Hulk wouldnt stand much of a chance the second that Supe's figures out that he doesnt have to hold back.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

.


3. This started about the Hulk. No matter how powerful he has become in WWH, his is still human. Even if he is hyped-up, he is still human. The Hulk could and would not beat him with just strength or speed or pure force. It could not happen. His body has limits becuase he was born here on earth. Superman has limits too, but they are far beyond the Hulk's..

The being born human factor doesnt have anything to do with it.....even you thing the Sentry might have a chance at beating Superman and he's only human.What it breaks down to is power level and the will to do what has to be done to win.

[David Rice]

I didnt ignore it at all.It just wasnt need to prove my point [or your for that mater] Like I said I know that Superman has the strenth,speed and power to beat almost every body that we could think of putting him in a fight with it just that with his holding back all the time he just doednt have the will to really win the kind of fights were talking about here.
I think that some of you guys are so acustom to others tring to push their ideas on you that you think every body is like that. To me this is just a friendly debate.

I think we are just misunderstanding each other.

You are right about that last line. If I came off as a dick, I didn't mean too.

[David Rice]

Superman is my favorite hero but the Hulk is pretty much unstoppable right now. He tossed aside a full powered Juggernaut, broke Doctor Stranges hands and has pretty much smashed everyone that's stood in front of him so far. Superman may have the Speed and flight over Hulk but Hulk strength is vastly superior to Superman right now.

Hulk would win in his current state.

Ummm, no.

[Omega Red]

Ok here is something I want to throw out there. Supes couldnt beat Doomsday!

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I didnt ignore it at all.It just wasnt need to prove my point [or your for that mater] Like I said I know that Superman has the strenth,speed and power to beat almost every body that we could think of putting him in a fight with it just that with his holding back all the time he just doednt have the will to really win the kind of fights were talking about here.
I think that some of you guys are so acustom to others tring to push their ideas on you that you think every body is like that. To me this is just a friendly debate.

I think we are just misunderstanding each other.

You are right about that last line. If I came off as a dick, I didn't mean too.

No prob man:woot:

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Ok here is something I want to throw out there. Supes couldnt beat Doomsday!


And...........whats your point????????? Doomsday was artificially created on Krypton in the past and was created to be the ultimate lifeform.Doomsday was forced to endure the agony of death, thousands of times only to be reborn over and over again untill he gained the ability to evolve against what killed him in his prior life.Doomsday can develop/evolve resistances to whatever injures or harms him and possesses extreme physical strength that even surpasses that of Superman under normal circumstances.He far out matches the Hulk.

[Omega Red]

And...........whats your point????????? Doomsday was artificially created on Krypton in the past and was created to be the ultimate lifeform.Doomsday was forced to endure the agony of death, thousands of times only to be reborn over and over again untill he gained the ability to evolve against what killed him in his prior life.Doomsday can develop/evolve resistances to whatever injures or harms him and possesses extreme physical strength that even surpasses that of Superman under normal circumstances.He far out matches the Hulk.

I know the story on Doomsday I have TPB on my shelf.

But that is my point he could not beat his greatest enemy. And you think he could go put against the strongest hero of all.

now not to sound rude. Everyone who say Supes will beat Hulk is say he would win because of his smarts but he was not smart enough to destroy Doomsday, Mother box has to do it for him.

And a big gripe I have here is most people was to put Hulk as the one word grey hulk. Sorry but he has been going for a very long time. And so has P.C superman.

So you have to weigh the fact you have for the CURRENT versions.

And with that in mind Hulk would win. HANDS DOWN

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I know the story on Doomsday I have TPB on my shelf.

But that is my point he could not beat his greatest enemy. And you think he could go put against the strongest hero of all.

now not to sound rude. Everyone who say Supes will beat Hulk is say he would win because of his smarts but he was not smart enough to destroy Doomsday, Mother box has to do it for him.

And a big gripe I have here is most people was to put Hulk as the one word grey hulk. Sorry but he has been going for a very long time. And so has P.C superman.

So you have to weigh the fact you have for the CURRENT versions.

And with that in mind Hulk would win. HANDS DOWN

I dont think smarts has anything to do with it.Super intellect my ass.And I am sppeking about the current versions when I say I think Supe's will beat Hulk.The point I'm trying to make is that I think that Doomsday would beat the Hulk too..And even if you want to say that the Hulk has reached Superman's strenth level [witch I dont think he has but I could be wrong] thats not the only thing that the Hulk would be going up against.On the ground and in the air Superman can reach speeds approaching the speed of light.At those speeds The Hulk wont be able to land a single punch on Superman.And I think that his heat vision is capable of cutting trew the Hulks skin.So think about Supes frying the Hulks brain with his heat vision.The real issue is wether or not Superman has the bal*'s to win a fight in this fashion.And the current Superman does not.
On the other hand I could but together a group of heros and villians that together could beat Superman.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

I know the story on Doomsday I have TPB on my shelf.

But that is my point he could not beat his greatest enemy. And you think he could go put against the strongest hero of all.

now not to sound rude. Everyone who say Supes will beat Hulk is say he would win because of his smarts but he was not smart enough to destroy Doomsday, Mother box has to do it for him.

And a big gripe I have here is most people was to put Hulk as the one word grey hulk. Sorry but he has been going for a very long time. And so has P.C superman.

So you have to weigh the fact you have for the CURRENT versions.

And with that in mind Hulk would win. HANDS DOWN

What do you mean by "the one word Grey Hulk"?

[David Rice]

Ok here is something I want to throw out there. Supes couldnt beat Doomsday!

Ummmmm, Yes he could. He beat him the first time. It just cost him his life.

[David Rice]

I dont think smarts has anything to do with it.Super intellect my ass.And I am sppeking about the current versions when I say I think Supe's will beat Hulk.The point I'm trying to make is that I think that Doomsday would beat the Hulk too..And even if you want to say that the Hulk has reached Superman's strenth level [witch I dont think he has but I could be wrong] thats not the only thing that the Hulk would be going up against.On the ground and in the air Superman can reach speeds approaching the speed of light.At those speeds The Hulk wont be able to land a single punch on Superman.And I think that his heat vision is capable of cutting trew the Hulks skin.So think about Supes frying the Hulks brain with his heat vision.The real issue is wether or not Superman has the bal*'s to win a fight in this fashion.And the current Superman does not.
On the other hand I could but together a group of heros and villians that together could beat Superman.

The World War Hulk is much stronger now, faster, has super intelligence and a healing factor better then Wolverines. But I still think Superman would take him... in the right mind set that is. :cwink:

[Omega Red]

What do you mean by "the one word Grey Hulk"?


You know what I mean. The "Hulk Smash" type of hulk. Thats the arguement I always see when this type of contest happens.

[Omega Red]

Ummmmm, Yes he could. He beat him the first time. It just cost him his life.

Nah that was a draw. Double KO

[Omega Red]

I dont think smarts has anything to do with it.Super intellect my ass.And I am sppeking about the current versions when I say I think Supe's will beat Hulk.The point I'm trying to make is that I think that Doomsday would beat the Hulk too..And even if you want to say that the Hulk has reached Superman's strenth level [witch I dont think he has but I could be wrong] thats not the only thing that the Hulk would be going up against.On the ground and in the air Superman can reach speeds approaching the speed of light.At those speeds The Hulk wont be able to land a single punch on Superman.And I think that his heat vision is capable of cutting trew the Hulks skin.So think about Supes frying the Hulks brain with his heat vision.The real issue is wether or not Superman has the bal*'s to win a fight in this fashion.And the current Superman does not.
On the other hand I could but together a group of heros and villians that together could beat Superman.

Yeah you may want to rea WW Hulk to see what supes is up against

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Yeah you may want to rea WW Hulk to see what supes is up against

I have been reading them...all of them in fact.I prefer the Hulk to Superman for the most part but that dosnt mean I'm going to diregaurd what evidence shows.Supermans is stronger then the Hulk under normal circumstances but as we all know the madder the Hulk get's the stronger he gets. But even if he were able to get mad enough to be stronger then Sup's his speed far out weighs the advanthges of that strenth.What good is all that strenth in a fight if you cant so much as land a punch because your oponent is moving to fast for you to hit him.

[David Rice]

You know what I mean. The "Hulk Smash" type of hulk. Thats the arguement I always see when this type of contest happens.

That't not what we are talking about here.

Nah that was a draw. Double KO

Double KO, yes. Draw, no.

[David Rice]

Yeah you may want to rea WW Hulk to see what supes is up against

Maybe you need to read some Superman books. :cwink:

[Czar Colossus]

Superman, no question.

[Uncle Sam]

When Hulk clashes with an equal, he causes destruction to his surrounding environment. When Superman clashes with an equal, he tears apart reality itself. I don't care how strong the Hulk gets. He will never be a match for Superman.

[David Rice]

When Hulk clashes with an equal, he causes destruction to his surrounding environment. When Superman clashes with an equal, he tears apart reality itself. I don't care how strong the Hulk gets. He will never be a match for Superman.

Thank you! :woot:

[roadrage]

What the Hulk braces was 150 tons of mass. The moon is far heavier than part of a large mountain.

Superman's strength is so powerful that..

it was actually 150 billion tons.

supporting an object on earth is different than pushing an object in space.

[roadrage]

the hulk has an ability to hit and see fast moving objects. i gather that from what i have read from various comics and fans of the hulk.
hulk is one of my favorite comic characters, but unfortunately it looks as if superman would win the fight. too many extra powers on superman's side.


the winner gets to face the silver surfer :yay:

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

When Hulk clashes with an equal, he causes destruction to his surrounding environment. When Superman clashes with an equal, he tears apart reality itself. I don't care how strong the Hulk gets. He will never be a match for Superman.

I agree with this, though i LOVE both characters equally, i have just seen SO much evidence of Superman doing things Hulk could only dream of, like pushing a planet in Our Worlds At War.

[Uncle Sam]

Someone had to post this.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t136/Hynad/supesvshulk18sq.jpg

[Ahura Mazda]

That picture is misleading if you read the rest of the comic book.

[Everything Man]

The World War Hulk is much stronger now, faster, has super intelligence and a healing factor better then Wolverines. But I still think Superman would take him... in the right mind set that is. :cwink:

Yeah...if Superman ever lost control, everyone would die. If Supes was angry enough to disregard his code of ethics and not care about Banner's life, Hulk would be obliterated.

[Redwolf]

There is a good debate going on over at the DC comics message board about Superman vs Hulk.

Concerning a sun-dipped Superman in the "Our Worlds at War" storyline...

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/...=0&tstart=0 (http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000118317&start=0&tstart=0)


quote: "In addition, it should be noted, I believe, that Imperiex, who possessed universe-level power, could not break out of Brainiac 13's containment field. Sundipped Superman could, however -- Imperiex selected and possessed Superman to do it and Brainiac 13 pleaded with Superman not to do it (and Superman chose not to), both confident that Superman, in that state, was powerful enough to do what Imperiex could not.

You are spot on with your original point. Superman didn't just move Warworld while sundipped, he moved Warworld against the "full counterthrusters" of the Imperiex Power. Prior to absoring the Imperiex Power, Warworld was powerful enough to travel across the universe, with the Imperiex Power, Warworld could destroy, recreate and control the universe.

_Richard



quote: On a related note, upon absorbing the Imperiex Power, Brainiac 13, who was Warworld, restrained both Earth and Apokolips via energy tendrils. When the tendril between Earth was severed by Steel's Entropy Aegis, Brainiac reconstituted the tendril, making it 100 times as powerful as the tendril was.

At the close of the story, we saw just how powerful the force that was Brainiac 13's "blood" actually was: The power is released adjacent to the Big Bang, creating a parallel universe that blended with the Big Bang's universe.

As great as that power was, it could not outmuscle the sundipped Superman, much less put down or destroy the augmented Man of Steel.

_Richard

In short a sun-dipped Superman was more powerful than a being that had the power of creating and destroying a Universe.

The Incredible Hulk isn't so "incredible" imo. Especially compared to current Superman.

[Redwolf]

Ok here is something I want to throw out there. Supes couldnt beat Doomsday!

Incorrect, the first battle between the two was a tie. Both ended up killing each other with their final blows. I should also throw this out there as well, the Superman in the 1993 Death of Superman storyline was much WEAKER than current 2007 Superman. Which is why you shouldn't use the Doomsday battle as a valid "Hulk can beat Superman because Doomsday beat Superman" argument.

If you compare 1993 Superman's power levels to current Superman you'd be comparing apples to oranges. 1993 Superman is essentially a wimp compared to current Supes.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

There is a good debate going on over at the DC comics message board about Superman vs Hulk.

Concerning a sun-dipped Superman in the "Our Worlds at War" storyline...

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/...=0&tstart=0 (http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000118317&start=0&tstart=0)


quote: "In addition, it should be noted, I believe, that Imperiex, who possessed universe-level power, could not break out of Brainiac 13's containment field. Sundipped Superman could, however -- Imperiex selected and possessed Superman to do it and Brainiac 13 pleaded with Superman not to do it (and Superman chose not to), both confident that Superman, in that state, was powerful enough to do what Imperiex could not.


You are spot on with your original point. Superman didn't just move Warworld while sundipped, he moved Warworld against the "full counterthrusters" of the Imperiex Power. Prior to absoring the Imperiex Power, Warworld was powerful enough to travel across the universe, with the Imperiex Power, Warworld could destroy, recreate and control the universe.


_Richard


quote: On a related note, upon absorbing the Imperiex Power, Brainiac 13, who was Warworld, restrained both Earth and Apokolips via energy tendrils. When the tendril between Earth was severed by Steel's Entropy Aegis, Brainiac reconstituted the tendril, making it 100 times as powerful as the tendril was.


At the close of the story, we saw just how powerful the force that was Brainiac 13's "blood" actually was: The power is released adjacent to the Big Bang, creating a parallel universe that blended with the Big Bang's universe.


As great as that power was, it could not outmuscle the sundipped Superman, much less put down or destroy the augmented Man of Steel.


_Richard
In short a sun-dipped Superman was more powerful than a being that had the power of creating and destroying a Universe.

The Incredible Hulk isn't so "incredible" imo. Especially compared to current Superman.



I'm confused about the power levels of current Superman but the Hulk couldnt beat him anyway.

[Redwolf]

I know the story on Doomsday I have TPB on my shelf.

But that is my point he could not beat his greatest enemy. And you think he could go put against the strongest hero of all.

now not to sound rude. Everyone who say Supes will beat Hulk is say he would win because of his smarts but he was not smart enough to destroy Doomsday, Mother box has to do it for him.

And a big gripe I have here is most people was to put Hulk as the one word grey hulk. Sorry but he has been going for a very long time. And so has P.C superman.

So you have to weigh the fact you have for the CURRENT versions.

And with that in mind Hulk would win. HANDS DOWN

Again you need to stop comparing a version of Superman that does not exist anymore. We are talking about CURRENT 2007 Superman. Not 1993/1994 Superman. Current 2007 Superman is far superior in power compared to 1993/1994 Superman who battled Doomsday.

When we claim Superman's greatest assest in battle is his super intelligence we are talking about current Superman. After Supes got his powers back after being powerless after the Infinite Crisis his intelligence got a boost. You can't say "Super Intelligence my ass" then give an example from a story that happend years BEFORE he got the recent intelligence boost. That doesn't make sense.

We are weighing the facts of the current versions of these two characters. Did you not read my previous posts in which I give examples of CURRENT 2007 Superman? The Hulk cannot compete, Superman works at a much higher level than Hulk. These recent feats prove that. Hands down it is clear The Incredible Hulk isn't so "incredible" compared to current 2007 Superman.

Here they are again....

Superman's speed..able to move at 99% the speed of light within earth's atmosphere. He's been shown faster in outer space.

Superman's heat vision is as hot as the core of a star!!

Superman's strength...under normal power levels he can push the moon. The greatest strength/lifting feat by Hulk was bracing part of a large mountain. What the Hulk braces was 150 tons of mass. The moon is far heavier than part of a large mountain.

Superman's strength is so powerful that..

(Superman and Kal-L hit each other once and destroyed Earth 2) or "shattering the boundaries of space and time" with strength alone (again, against Kal-L) -- hitting so hard that Elseworld versions of himself appear (Superman IC TPB).

Imperiex, at the conclusion of the Our Worlds at War story arc, had absorbed suffcient power to destroy the universe (and chain react the destruction of the multiverse). Imperiex, as Our Worlds at War Secret Files and Origins showed, was God's cosmic agent of universal creation and destruction -- Imperiex was the Big Bang, essentially.

(OT: Brainiac had this power trapped inside himself; Imperiex chose the sundipped Superman to break Imperiex out of Brainiac's cell. Later, Superman outmuscled the Imperiex-powered B-13. That should tell you just how powerful sundipped Superman was in that arc -- Superman was powerful enough to break a cell that a Big Bang level force could not; Superman was powerful enough to outmuscle B-13/Imperiex's "full counter thrusters!")

Imperiex's Probes were not as powerful as Imperiex himself. Nevertheless, an entire army of "solar converted" Daxamites could not put a single dent into a Probe. Only Superman, Doomsday and Zod managed to destroy Probes with their bare hands -- the rest had to use magical artifacts (Wonder Woman's shield and lasso, the Trident of Poseidon) or advanced tech (B-13 based nuclear tanks).

Initially, Superman needed intensive training and a power boost to so much as hang with a Probe in a fight -- a Probe who very casually threw Mongul across the galaxy.

Superman's invunerability is up there aswell.

Recent Superman in May's Action Comics, flies from Vega to Earth in seconds, or light years from a spaceship to the inside of a Sun Eater. He wades through Earth's assembled alien forces (J'onn, Powergirl, Kilowog, etc) in a matter of panels. One shots Despero with heat vision. And has his power depleted and is thrown through Earth and into its core and survives, as well as survives a 700 light year anti-matter explosion when power depleted.

What is World War Hulk going to do against recent Superman, when recent Superman is depicted as that powerful? In my opinion, nothing but lose.

On average, Superman simply operates on a much higher scale than Marvel characters, including Hulk -- especially recently.

Also, Superman's greatest asset over the Hulk, super intelligence. After Superman gets his powers back from being powerless for that one year after the Infinite Crisis, his intelligence has increased. Everything in his brain has been accelerated and amped up.

The greatest feat Hulk has done is destroying an asteroid twice the size of earth.

As a high end feat, this is very impressive for the Hulk. However, it does not compare to Superman's high end feats, such as:

1) Atomizing Earth 2 as the collateral damage of hitting, and being hit by, Kal-L; that is, the planet received no hit, but was simply destroyed as a collateral effect of a single punch on the two combatants' bodies. (Superman Infinite Crisis TPB)

2) Holding a black hole in one hand; then producing sufficient static electricity (via rubbing his hands) for Green Lantern to corral into a temporary containment force; then actually throwing the black hole into another black hole. (JLA 81 or 82)

(Incidentally black holes are the collapsed remains of super-massive stars that have, at minimum, the mass of at least 30 of our Sun, according to modern science.)

3) "Shattering the boundaries of space and time" by way of his fight against Kal-L; that is, hitting each other so hard that: 1) Superman and Kal-L actually switch into the past, present and future of each other's lives; 2) Elseworld versions of themselves actually manifested in time and space. (Superman Infinite Crisis TPB)

4) Superman reverses the vibratory pattern of an entire alternate Earth; does so from high orbit; that is, not even touching the planet. (Adventures of Superman Cannibal Planet issue)

5) Superman and Kal-L, who came up equal in their fight, manhandle Superboy Prime across galaxies and force him through Krypton's Sun. Superboy Prime, it was said and shown, was strong enough to move planets as easily as someone moves "chess pieces." (Infinite Crisis)

Superman splitting "a small Saturnian moon" in Lex 2000; or nearly knocking the Moon out of orbit merely by pounding on it (as one would pound on a table) while sick from Kryptonite poisoning (Til Death Do Us Part TPB).

When Superman and Flash last raced, Flash explained that, were Superman stopped dead in his tracks, it would destroy everything between the Flash's city and Moscow. That's a far larger tract of land than the Rockies -- it's an immense chunk of the planet.

Superman broke through a dome powerful enough to contain a nuclear blast with a stray backhand when he fought the Eradicator.

Superman also punched Bizarro through the planet, from Metropolis to China, in one hit.

[Uncle Sam]

To clarify Redwolf's post for those who are not familiar with Superman lore, Kal-L is the original Superman from Earth 2. The reason he was able to fight Superman to a standstill is because he is also Superman. Given all of the above, I am convinced that if either of these two Supermen wanted to kill The Hulk, he could do so in one hit.

[David Rice]

Yeah...if Superman ever lost control, everyone would die. If Supes was angry enough to disregard his code of ethics and not care about Banner's life, Hulk would be obliterated.

That is what I said.

There is a good debate going on over at the DC comics message board about Superman vs Hulk.

Concerning a sun-dipped Superman in the "Our Worlds at War" storyline...

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/...=0&tstart=0 (http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000118317&start=0&tstart=0)


quote: "In addition, it should be noted, I believe, that Imperiex, who possessed universe-level power, could not break out of Brainiac 13's containment field. Sundipped Superman could, however -- Imperiex selected and possessed Superman to do it and Brainiac 13 pleaded with Superman not to do it (and Superman chose not to), both confident that Superman, in that state, was powerful enough to do what Imperiex could not.
You are spot on with your original point. Superman didn't just move Warworld while sundipped, he moved Warworld against the "full counterthrusters" of the Imperiex Power. Prior to absoring the Imperiex Power, Warworld was powerful enough to travel across the universe, with the Imperiex Power, Warworld could destroy, recreate and control the universe.
_Richard
quote: On a related note, upon absorbing the Imperiex Power, Brainiac 13, who was Warworld, restrained both Earth and Apokolips via energy tendrils. When the tendril between Earth was severed by Steel's Entropy Aegis, Brainiac reconstituted the tendril, making it 100 times as powerful as the tendril was.
At the close of the story, we saw just how powerful the force that was Brainiac 13's "blood" actually was: The power is released adjacent to the Big Bang, creating a parallel universe that blended with the Big Bang's universe.
As great as that power was, it could not outmuscle the sundipped Superman, much less put down or destroy the augmented Man of Steel.
_Richard
In short a sun-dipped Superman was more powerful than a being that had the power of creating and destroying a Universe.

The Incredible Hulk isn't so "incredible" imo. Especially compared to current Superman.



This is good! Very good. Thank you Redwolf! :up: :up:

Incorrect, the first battle between the two was a tie. Both ended up killing each other with their final blows. I should also throw this out there as well, the Superman in the 1993 Death of Superman storyline was much WEAKER than current 2007 Superman. Which is why you shouldn't use the Doomsday battle as a valid "Hulk can beat Superman because Doomsday beat Superman" argument.

If you compare 1993 Superman's power levels to current Superman you'd be comparing apples to oranges. 1993 Superman is essentially a wimp compared to current Supes.

This is good too. Great point! Keep them coming Redwolf! :up: :up:

[dnno1]

Someone had to post this.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t136/Hynad/supesvshulk18sq.jpg

That picture is misleading if you read the rest of the comic book.

No it is not. I if you actually read the story you will find that Superman actually tired out the rampaging Hulk. The Hulk himself admitted to that. Here is that page:

http://www.supermantv.net/comics/hulksuperman/hulk8.jpg

[dnno1]

As far as how Hulk would fair against Doomsday battle. This is what would happen:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/HVD1.png
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/HVD2.png
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/HVD3.png
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/HVD4.png
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/HVD5.png
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/HVD3.png

To be continued....

[dnno1]

Hulk vs Doomsday Part 2:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/HVD7.png
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/HVD8.png
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/HVD9.png
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b188/dnno1/HVD10.png

The End.

[Omega Red]

No I am sorry. People like to use that Pre-Crisis Superman for everything but he is no more. I am sorry but the arguement is void for that fact. We are talking Superman now and WW Hulk. And with WW Hulk not being the slow, dumber version. Superman is in for a world of hurt

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

No I am sorry. People like to use that Pre-Crisis Superman for everything but he is no more. I am sorry but the arguement is void for that fact. We are talking Superman now and WW Hulk. And with WW Hulk not being the slow, dumber version. Superman is in for a world of hurt

Actually there's nothing in the topic title or the first post that suggest we can only consider the current Superman for this debate.

Here's the first post:
Ok, I've been hearing alot of people say that the Hulk from World War Hulk could kick Superman's ass.

What do you think? Discuss.

So I see no reason why anyone is barred from useing the Pre Crisis Superman if they want.

[Omega Red]

Actually there's nothing in the topic title or the first post that suggest we can only consider the current Superman for this debate.

Here's the first post:


So I see no reason why anyone is barred from useing the Pre Crisis Superman if they want.

Yeah but you have to remember Pre-Crisis Supes got smacked around by Spider-Man before they realized what was going on.

But from what I understoond seeing that we are using WWH (not the hulk someone used from an old comic). We have to take into fact that we are dealing with the Superman from now.

[dnno1]

COiMYVcT5mQ

[dnno1]

It doesn't matter. Post-Crisis Superman could take WWH as well.

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

Yeah but you have to remember Pre-Crisis Supes got smacked around by Spider-Man before they realized what was going on.

And whats that got to do with this debate.

Even Batman and Captain America took out the Hulk back then.

But from what I understoond seeing that we are using WWH (not the hulk someone used from an old comic). We have to take into fact that we are dealing with the Superman from now.

Again theres no bases for saying that only the modern Superman can be used in this debate.

No critra was set when the topic was started.

[dnno1]

Like I said before, Post Crisis Superman would still take him. There is nothing that WWH has done that Post Crisis Superman can do as far as strength and he certainly has the advantage with his other abilities.

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I am a big fan of both characters, been a Hulk fan longer though, and I have to say, Hulk and WWH have some impressive feats of strength behind, but NON of them, NOT ONE compares to some of the things I have seen Superman do in the comics.

Superman pushed a PLANET in Our Worlds At War something Brainiac deemed as impossible, he broke Wonder Womans wrist just by squeezing it, his heat vision Melted nearly everything around it in Sacrifice when he used it on Blackrock (both of which happened in Sacrifice) and he has survived Darkseid's Omega Beams numerous times. The likes of Darkseid and Doomsday would rip Hulk apart, yet Superman has come of several fights with both.

Non of what I have seen Hulk do compares to any of this I'm sorry to say.

[November Rain]

hulk fans are seriously in denial

marvel is in the little league, dc is where crap goes down

the average dc hero could take their marvel equivalent. and most dc villains would own marvel ones and their universe...

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^Hate to say it as a person who has been a Marvel fan longer but, its true, Superman would wast ANY Marvel hero with the exception of The Silver Surfer and The Sentry. But even with those 2 i'm not sure what the outcome would be.