Official 2008 MLB thread

[Dark Donnie]

Another team wil probably jump in eventually

[Spidey-Bat]

Not likely. The Mets, Red Sox, and Yankees have been in it for a long time. Another team would have jumped in awhile ago. No teams that have prospects are willing to pay the money (ie Mariners, Dodgers).

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I still think the Twins are just teasing everyone in trying to build up for a trade during the year when teams are in pendant races are might be willing to give they're son up for a decent player, much less a star like Santana.

[Spidey-Bat]

They're not trading Santana during the year. He won't waive his no-trade clause after Spring Training and the Twins don't want it as a distraction for other teams. They will also get more for him in the off-season.

[Nightmare]

Not likely. The Mets, Red Sox, and Yankees have been in it for a long time. Another team would have jumped in awhile ago. No teams that have prospects are willing to pay the money (ie Mariners, Dodgers).

I dont blame my dodgers. Id love to have santana, but not at the price of loney, kershaw and kemp. Plus we'd have to turn around and give santana 20 million perseason. Ridiculous.

[Spidey-Bat]

The problem with the Dodgers is they are rebuilding and they overpay in salary more than years. Except with Juan Pierre. In his case they did both.

[Showtime]

Not likely. The Mets, Red Sox, and Yankees have been in it for a long time. Another team would have jumped in awhile ago. No teams that have prospects are willing to pay the money (ie Mariners, Dodgers).

You were right man, this is dragging and dragging. :cwink:

[Spidey-Bat]

I wonder what page that post is on.

[fu manchu]

The problem with the Dodgers is they are rebuilding and they overpay in salary more than years. Except with Juan Pierre. In his case they did both.

:huh: how did overpaying Pierre helped in rebuilding?

[Showtime]

I wonder what page that post is on.

Not sure, but I can vouch for you.

[Spidey-Bat]

:huh: how did overpaying Pierre helped in rebuilding?

They weren't rebuilding after 2006. They just won the NL WC and had the same team intact.

[Spidey-Bat]

Not sure, but I can vouch for you.

Found it :)

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=13426651&postcount=1385

[fu manchu]

They weren't rebuilding after 2006. They just won the NL WC and had the same team intact.

wait, now, i remember they signed Pierre because they thought he was a younger version of Kenny Lofton. I'm not sure if thats considered as "rebuilding", though.

[E. Nygma]

wait, now, i remember they signed Pierre because they thought he was a younger version of Kenny Lofton. I'm not sure if thats considered as "rebuilding", though.

He was coming off one of his best seasons of his career with the Cubs. I think the Pierre move was more of a decision of CONTENDING rather than rebuilding.

[fu manchu]

^ i agree its more in line to be more competitive than rebuilding. Although, Pierre didn't help much last year.

[Spidey-Bat]

wait, now, i remember they signed Pierre because they thought he was a younger version of Kenny Lofton. I'm not sure if thats considered as "rebuilding", though.

They are rebuilding this off-season. Last off-season they thought they could compete again.

[fu manchu]

they signed Joe Torre, Andruw Jones, and Kuroda during the off-season. that doesn't sound like they're in rebuilding mode. they are just bringing some of their prospects to fill in some holes in their roster. IMO Loney, Kemp, and Martin had already established themselves as major league players last season.

[Showtime]

Found it :)

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=13426651&postcount=1385

I should just edit the post. Heh Heh.

[Spidey-Bat]

They are rebuilding but not in a way that a team like the Giants would. They're good enough that they just need to plug up some holes (power bat, CF, middle-rotation starter). They want to keep their young players like Kemp and Kershaw and don't want to pay Santana the money or years.

I should just edit the post. Heh Heh.
Don't be like Clemens and deny the truth.

[NewYorkSpider]

The Dodgers are rebuilding. They finished 8 games behind the D-Backs and 7 games behind the Rockies. They had to rebuild their offense because they are in a divison with great pitching. Jeff Kent lead the team with 20HR. You're not going to win the divison or make the playoffs when you have no one to drive in runs.

[fu manchu]

"rebuilding" doesn't mean adding a player or two.

[Spidey-Bat]

Does it make a difference what it's called?

[fu manchu]

to avoid confusion, then yes.

[NewYorkSpider]

Alright, lets put it this way. The Dodgers are "restructuring" their team. They've moved in the right direction so far. They've got the power bat they needed(Andruw Jones) and a very good coaching staff. They filled their roatation with Kuroda. If their roatation can stay healthy, then this will be a team to watch out for next season. I think the next step is to move LaRoche in at 3rd base and take Garciaparra out. Nomar was horrible last season.

[Dodger]

Alright, lets put it this way. The Dodgers are "restructuring" their team. They've moved in the right direction so far. They've got the power bat they needed(Andruw Jones) and a very good coaching staff. They filled their roatation with Kuroda. If their roatation can stay healthy, then this will be a team to watch out for next season. I think the next step is to move LaRoche in at 3rd base and take Garciaparra out. Nomar was horrible last season.

Yeah I agree with this.

I hope Nomar can come to normal form. But see, the cool thing about Nomar is that he does not mind being a super-utility guy. He just wants to help the team. Class guy. :up:

[Showtime]

Don't be like Clemens and deny the truth.

I won't, only because I like you.

[Spidey-Bat]

I won't, only because I like you.
Thank you :)



Here's some new stuff:
Braves are close to getting Mark Kotsay from the A's. I think it will cost Atlanta a young, middle-back rotation right-handed starter.
Omar Minaya is back from a good-will trip to Israel so there will be more progress with the Twins and Santana in the coming days. If I had to guess, I think this will be wrapped up Friday at the earliest.

[souloffire]

Finally, they're electing guys who deserve to get in. Rice, Dawson, and Blyleven should be next.I would put Mattingly in there as well.

[Captain Planet!]

What do all you guys think about the Orioles? I think they'll suck. Again.

[Dark Donnie]

FOXSports.com's Ken Rosenthal says the Dodgers, Brewers and Phillies are showing interest in free agent Pedro Feliz.

Just like last year, there isn't a team out there especially interested in Feliz. We're guessing the Phillies would sign him at the right price, but the Giants would likely give him a better one-year deal if he stopped asking for multiple years. Feliz would only make sense for Milwaukee if Bill Hall made a stink about returning to the infield. As for the Dodgers, Andy LaRoche is a better player than Feliz, and the team already has safety nets in Nomar Garciaparra, Tony Abreu and Chin-Lung Hu.
Source: FOXSports.com
Related: Dodgers, Brewers, Phillies
Would be a nice signing for The Phillies

[Spidey-Bat]

Phillies should get him. They could use the defense and his offensive numbers would go up a lot. Brewers should just move Bill Hall to 3rd. If he was willing to move to CF, I don't see why he'd make a big stink about moving to 3B when he's a natural SS. Dodgers wanting him makes no sense to me.


UPDATE: Cardinals and Blue Jays are close to a Scott Rolen-Troy Glaus swap.

[E. Nygma]

Phillies should get him. They could use the defense and his offensive numbers would go up a lot. Brewers should just move Bill Hall to 3rd. If he was willing to move to CF, I don't see why he'd make a big stink about moving to 3B when he's a natural SS. Dodgers wanting him makes no sense to me.


UPDATE: Cardinals and Blue Jays are close to a Scott Rolen-Troy Glaus swap.

His offense has been very mediocre over the last several seasons (Feliz). But certainly in CBP his offensive production would go up a lot, especially since he hit 20 HR's last year, an easy feat at CBP.

Certainly it's better to have an established 3B over Greg Dobbs who's a good utility guy and Wes Helms who just plain sucks.

[Dark Donnie]

Phillies should get him. They could use the defense and his offensive numbers would go up a lot. Brewers should just move Bill Hall to 3rd. If he was willing to move to CF, I don't see why he'd make a big stink about moving to 3B when he's a natural SS. Dodgers wanting him makes no sense to me.


UPDATE: Cardinals and Blue Jays are close to a Scott Rolen-Troy Glaus swap.

Report: Cards set to trade Rolen for Glaus

The Cardinals and Blue Jays will swap Scott Rolen and Troy Glaus if the third basemen will waive their no-trade clauses, FOXSports.com's Ken Rosenthal reports.

Glaus, who is believed to prefer the West Coast, may want some financial incentive for waiving his no-trade clause. Rolen figures to be less picky, as he just wants away from Tony La Russa. The two players would also have to pass physicals for the deal to be completed. Rolen has the more significant health concerns because of his chronic shoulder troubles, but Glaus is coming off foot surgery. Jan. 12 - 1:01 pm et
Source: FOXSports.com

I agree btw Feliz is a definate upgrade over what we have...and he has a good glove.

[Spidey-Bat]

Rolen for Glaus is pretty much a done deal. The Rolen-La Russa soap opera finally ends. The Blue Jays get rid of Glaus' steroid baggage. La Russa welcomes and defends steroid users so it's a match made in heaven. Blue Jays finally have another good glove in the IF besides Aaron Hill.

[Spidey-Bat]

Here's some new stuff:
Braves are close to getting Mark Kotsay from the A's. I think it will cost Atlanta a young, middle-back rotation right-handed starter.

Joey Devine for Mark Kotsay
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3193556

(it's from Buster Olney, but this sounds plausible enough to be true)

I should send this to ESPN. Perhaps I could take Olney's job.

[Dark Donnie]

Yeah the Kotsay trades been confirmed

[strikezone89]

did santana get traded?

[Spidey-Bat]

Nope. Don't expect it until Friday at the earliest.

[strikezone89]

Nope. Don't expect it until Friday at the earliest.

ight...
any word where he must likely will be headed?

[NewYorkSpider]

ight...
any word where he must likely will be headed?

Mets are the frontrunner. Red Sox and Yankees were in on a deal, but they're believed to have backed off.

[Spidey-Bat]

Yep. The Mets will likely get him.

[BlackLantern]

as a Mets fan.....I would hope that they dont give up too much to get santana

[E. Nygma]

Santana will either stay in Minnesota, or go to the Mets at this point.

[Spidey-Bat]

as a Mets fan.....I would hope that they dont give up too much to get santana
They have to pay the price. No teams are letting their aces walk and they can't blow this chance for a pennant.

[E. Nygma]

They have to pay the price. No teams are letting their aces walk and they can't blow this chance for a pennant.

Yeah, the NL is really up for grabs for the Mets. They need this piece.

[NewYorkSpider]

Last three games for the Yankees this year are against Boston. Should be exciting.

Hopefully :csad:

[sinewave]

here's rob neyer's take on the cameron deal from espn.com. there's some interesting info in it.

Adding Cameron a plus for Brewers
posted: Monday, January 14, 2008 | Feedback | Print Entry

According to skyking162 (http://skyking162.com/2008/01/mike-cameron-savior/), the Brewers' signing of Mike Cameron might be the best signing of this offseason. Why? Because that move alone makes them 40 runs better, defensively, than they were before they signed Cameron. How? Cameron replaces Bill Hall in center field (20-run improvement), Hall replaces Ryan Braun at third base (30-run improvement), and Braun replaces Gabe Gross in left field (10-run dropoff).

Cameron's a pretty good hitter, too. Bottom line?

Including both offense and defense, the Brewers are between 4.0 and 5.5 wins better with Mike Cameron than without him. At $4 million per win, that's worth between $16 and $22 million on the free agent market, all for only $7 million. We can't give all that credit to Cameron (the Brewers technically could have moved Hall and Braun without signing Cameron), but acquiring a good center fielder forces the issue. It's a great signing and the Brewers are now back to competing with the Cubs for first place in the NL Central.

One thing Sky doesn't mention: Cameron has tested positive for a banned stimulant, and for the second time. He'll be suspended for the first 25 games of the 2008 season. Still, I think the basic conclusion is correct: With Cameron, there's no reason the Brewers can't win 85 games and stick with the Cubs in the Central. Not bad for $7 million.

[Showtime]

Has this been a slower off-season then usual or is it just me?

[cyborg ninja 14]

You might be right actually.

[Dark Donnie]

Report: Yankees pull offer for Santana

ESPN is reporting that the Yankees have again pulled their offer for Johan Santana off the table.

The Yankees will not restart trade talks with the Twins unless Hank Steinbrenner has another change of heart, a baseball official with knowledge of the talks told 1050 ESPN Radio's Andrew Marchand. The Yankees' offer for Santana was believed to include Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera and one or two prospects. Jan. 14 - 1:02 pm et
Source: ESPN.com

Yanks have heard voice of reason, will Mets, Red Sox hear it, too?
Sunday, Jan 13, 2008 9:07 am EST


Bill Madden, baseball columnist for the New York Daily News, believes the New York Yankees, by indicating they're out of contention, have sounded the call of sanity that, to the Minnesota Twins' dismay, may well be echoed by the Boston Red Sox and New York Mets.

Wrote Madden: "Think of it: The Twins are looking to get four legitimate prospects back for their free agent-to-be lefthanded ace, after which the acquiring team will then have to reach a long-term contract agreement with Santana, who is said to be looking for six years at $25 mil per. Even if sanity prevails and the acquiring team holds the line at five years and $20 million (which would still make Santana the highest-paid pitcher in baseball), that still would amount to four top prospects plus $100 million — for one player!

"As much as Santana's presence at the top of the rotation would seemingly solidify any team as a World Series contender, the money plus the prospects is an astronomical risk.''

Source: New York Daily News

:brucebat:

[Spidey-Bat]

All those teams can afford to pay him. They may not want to, but they'll be able to. The contract Madden thinks Santana wants is insane. The deal will likely be 7 years average $18-$20M a year. It's the same as Barry Zito's but his was back loaded a lot.

[Dark Donnie]

That does sound like alot for one player.

[sinewave]

That does sound like alot for one player.

especially one who plays once every five days.

[Spidey-Bat]

especially one who plays once every five days.

He pitches over 200 innings and can put a sub-3 ERA. When he pitches, it automatically takes pressure off the bullpen to eat innings and takes pressure off your position players because they know they can still win scoring only 2 or 3 runs.

[sinewave]

He pitches over 200 innings and can put a sub-3 ERA. When he pitches, it automatically takes pressure off the bullpen to eat innings and takes pressure off your position players because they know they can still win scoring only 2 or 3 runs.

and how is that worth $20 million a year?

[Spidey-Bat]

Because it makes your team better. Also consider the marketing. Wouldn't you want a Santana shirt or jersey? Wouldn't you want to go to a game to see him pitch? I sure as hell would.

[NewYorkSpider]

and how is that worth $20 million a year?

Santana won 15 games last year. He would've won more if he had better run support in Minnesota. Over 200 strikeouts and a 3.33ERA. I'd say that's worth every penny.

[Jerry!]

Depends on who the Mets have to give up, I've been out of the loop with everything baseball for the last few weeks.

[Dark Donnie]

20 Million a year and 4 potential major leaguers seems like to much IMO

[Spidey-Bat]

Depends on who the Mets have to give up, I've been out of the loop with everything baseball for the last few weeks.

They'd have to give up:
Carlos Gomez (AAA CF, would likely start opening day. He needs some more time to grow but he can be very good)
Philip Humber (AAA RHSP, used to be highly touted, not so much. Still has middle/back of ration potential)
Kevin Mulvey (AA RHSP, has a lot of pitches, can throw all for strikes, also middle/back of rotation potential)
Deolis Guerra (A+ RHSP, he's 18, 6'5, and can already throw 96mph consistently. Tons of potential but he's so young you can't really gauge him)
*Fernando Martinez (AA OF, was in AA at 18 this year, did very well, he's the Mets uber-prospect)

*The report from the Minnesota Tribune said it'd be a done-deal if the Mets included Fernando Martinez. However it's most likely the Mets will hold out until the Twins give in. The Yankees have backed out and the Red Sox were never really interested leaving only the Mets now.

20 Million a year and 4 potential major leaguers seems like to much IMO
The money is a non-issue for the Mets. As for the prospects, they are losing a good part of their farm system but the chance to get a 29 year old pitcher in his prime is rare and is something you cannot pass on especially when you need a legitimate ace. The star prospects the Mets would be giving up are OFs which are easier to come across than a stud like Santana.

[Jerry!]

I can see why Red Sox fans would see it as a bad move. The Mets are in different situation though. Again, me being a White Sox fan, I wouldn't give another thought about trading prospects since we have basically developed jack ****. Mets are a little different, they got Reyes and Wright, who I am assuming came up through the Mets farm system and were drafted by them. Depends on how much you trust your scouts I guess. If you do, it would take longer, but in the long run it could be worth not trading them and waiting it out. Or take a chance and it should put them in the World Series next season, after all, it's the NL.

[Spidey-Bat]

The Mets did develop Wright and Reyes on their own. However, the organization has begun to think they are the norm and have rushed everyone else. IMO, they need to get Santana. A legit, durable ace is their #1 need and no teams are letting their aces walk (Peavy got re-signed, Lackey and Sabathia probably will during the season, too). This is their only chance for several years. Also consider their finish to last year. Fans are pissed and disappointed and this is a good way to wipe away that memory.

[Dark Donnie]

They'd have to give up:
Carlos Gomez (AAA CF, would likely start opening day. He needs some more time to grow but he can be very good)
Philip Humber (AAA RHSP, used to be highly touted, not so much. Still has middle/back of ration potential)
Kevin Mulvey (AA RHSP, has a lot of pitches, can throw all for strikes, also middle/back of rotation potential)
Deolis Guerra (A+ RHSP, he's 18, 6'5, and can already throw 96mph consistently. Tons of potential but he's so young you can't really gauge him)
*Fernando Martinez (AA OF, was in AA at 18 this year, did very well, he's the Mets uber-prospect)

*The report from the Minnesota Tribune said it'd be a done-deal if the Mets included Fernando Martinez. However it's most likely the Mets will hold out until the Twins give in. The Yankees have backed out and the Red Sox were never really interested leaving only the Mets now.


The money is a non-issue for the Mets. As for the prospects, they are losing a good part of their farm system but the chance to get a 29 year old pitcher in his prime is rare and is something you cannot pass on especially when you need a legitimate ace. The star prospects the Mets would be giving up are OFs which are easier to come across than a stud like Santana.


I was going to say that I read Martinez was the holdup....do you think they'll pull the trigger?

[Spidey-Bat]

I was going to say that I read Martinez was the holdup....do you think they'll pull the trigger?
Yes. I've read the Mets will do whatever it takes to get Santana and I think that's true. I expect them to hold out on Martinez as long as they can.

[NewYorkSpider]

NewYorkSpider's Historical Fact:

Since 2001, the team the has gone on to win the World Series has either failed to make the playoffs or is eliminated in the first round the next year.

2001 - D-Backs 2002 - Lost 3 games to 0 in NLDS against St.Louis

2002 - Angels 2003 - Failed to make playoffs

2003 - Marlins 2004 - Failed to make playoffs

2004 - Red Sox 2005 - Lost 3 games to 0 in ALDS against Chicago WS

2005 - White S 2006 Failed to make playoffs

2006 - St.Louis 2007 - Failed to make playoffs

2007 - Red Sox 2008 - ?

This makes me feel a little better. http://forums.superherohype.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Spidey-Bat]

08 Red Sox are almost the exact same as the 07 Red Sox. The Cards lost their post-season heroes and shouldnt have been in the WS to begin with. White Sox got a career year out of their pitching, and the 05 Red Sox were without Pedro and Lowe.

[NewYorkSpider]

Had to ruin this for me didn't you. http://forums.superherohype.com/images/icons/icon8.gif :oldrazz:

[Spidey-Bat]

Of course I did.

[Kingfish]

mistake fixed. im happy. :woot:

[NewYorkSpider]

um, just to point out the giants didn't win the world series in 02. not that it changes the point of the chart or anything, but still....

My mistake. The Angels missed the postseason in '03.

[Fran]

The Tigers are caravaning around the state... I'm so psyched.

[sinewave]

Because it makes your team better. Also consider the marketing. Wouldn't you want a Santana shirt or jersey? Wouldn't you want to go to a game to see him pitch? I sure as hell would.

don't get me wrong, i'm a huge santana fan, but i just don't think any pitcher is worth $20. I don't even think any are worth over $15 per year. no matter how good they are, it's tough to justify paying someone that kind of money when they only get to play in a maximum of 35 games per regular season. yeah, he's gonna give them a great chance to win by limiting runs allowed, but he's not going to be on his game every time he takes the mound. he had some sub-par games towards the end of the season and his division rivals obviously figured him out enough to beat him several times, so he's not going to be lights out every game. he might pitch like an all-star 20-25 starts and then pitch like chuck james for the other 10-15 starts. that's not worthy of 20$ mill. in my book. i don't buy jerseys, and the mets aren't hurting for paraphernalia sales without santana. the only way i could see justifying paying him that kind of money is if directly won them a WS ring at least half the time he's with them. they'd make great money on ticket sales and advertising during the playoffs and WS. granted, these big-market clubs are money trees, but pitchers are completely different animals than everyday players, so i don't think their pay should be equal.

Santana won 15 games last year. He would've won more if he had better run support in Minnesota. Over 200 strikeouts and a 3.33ERA. I'd say that's worth every penny.

sure be great for the mets. he could easily win 20+ games with a sub-3.00 era and 300k's, but that's no guarantee they'll make the playoffs or win the WS. if he wins them a few WS he's worth it, maybe just two. i know the mets fans are starved for a ring, so yeah, maybe this is a great deal for them. i just can't wrap my brain around dishing out that kind of casheesh for a pitcher.

[Jerry!]

http://usuarios.lycos.es/faed/FOTOS/army-US-Hummer_Special_Forces.jpg

Hopefully the Tigers have a few of these.

[Fran]

Yes, we'll need them to stop the White Sox.

Kidding aside, yeah, we're a marked team. Without a doubt.

[Spidey-Bat]

don't get me wrong, i'm a huge santana fan, but i just don't think any pitcher is worth $20. I don't even think any are worth over $15 per year. no matter how good they are, it's tough to justify paying someone that kind of money when they only get to play in a maximum of 35 games per regular season. yeah, he's gonna give them a great chance to win by limiting runs allowed, but he's not going to be on his game every time he takes the mound. he had some sub-par games towards the end of the season and his division rivals obviously figured him out enough to beat him several times, so he's not going to be lights out every game. he might pitch like an all-star 20-25 starts and then pitch like chuck james for the other 10-15 starts. that's not worthy of 20$ mill. in my book. i don't buy jerseys, and the mets aren't hurting for paraphernalia sales without santana. the only way i could see justifying paying him that kind of money is if directly won them a WS ring at least half the time he's with them. they'd make great money on ticket sales and advertising during the playoffs and WS. granted, these big-market clubs are money trees, but pitchers are completely different animals than everyday players, so i don't think their pay should be equal.


The market is so ****ed up that $20M per year for Santana will eventually be a bargain. I'm not in love with having to pay him that much either, but today you need to pay the price.

[sinewave]

The market is so ****ed up that $20M per year for Santana will eventually be a bargain. I'm not in love with having to pay him that much either, but today you need to pay the price.

that could very well be true. he may be a bargain at $20 in three years. he could also be an overpaid, injury-prone disappointment. there's nothing in his history that says that will happen, but it could. out of the three teams in the bidding for him, the mets probably need him the most, so they're probably in the best position to overpay for him. they've invested a ton of money into their current team without the benefit of a good pitching staff to back them up. if he gets them a ring, great, maybe he was worth it to them and their fans. the sox don't need him as much, so trading away several top prospects and dropping $20+ mill a year for him would seem less justifiable, in my eyes.

[Spidey-Bat]

that could very well be true. he may be a bargain at $20 in three years. he could also be an overpaid, injury-prone disappointment. there's nothing in his history that says that will happen, but it could. out of the three teams in the bidding for him, the mets probably need him the most, so they're probably in the best position to overpay for him. they've invested a ton of money into their current team without the benefit of a good pitching staff to back them up. if he gets them a ring, great, maybe he was worth it to them and their fans. the sox don't need him as much, so trading away several top prospects and dropping $20+ mill a year for him would seem less justifiable, in my eyes.

The Mets only have to overpay the Twins in prospects. Out of all 3 teams, they will pay the least for Santana because in addition to being committed to winning and playing in a big market city, they are in the NL and play in a stadium that is tough on right-handers. Their new stadium will be the same.

[Jerry!]

I seriously cannot imagine Santana being injury prone or a disappointment, especially in the NL. That is grasping for straws.

[Spidey-Bat]

It is. He's only 29, he's never had arm/elbow/shoulder problems, his mechanics are fine, his fastball is only 93, his only breaking pitch is a slider, and his out-pitch is his change-up.

[sinewave]

The Mets only have to overpay the Twins in prospects. Out of all 3 teams, they will pay the least for Santana because in addition to being committed to winning and playing in a big market city, they are in the NL and play in a stadium that is tough on right-handers. Their new stadium will be the same.

if they have to throw in martinez, it sounds like they're giving up a lot more than the sox or yanks would have.

[NewYorkSpider]

sure be great for the mets. he could easily win 20+ games with a sub-3.00 era and 300k's, but that's no guarantee they'll make the playoffs or win the WS. if he wins them a few WS he's worth it, maybe just two. i know the mets fans are starved for a ring, so yeah, maybe this is a great deal for them. i just can't wrap my brain around dishing out that kind of casheesh for a pitcher.

Now is the time for the Mets to get an ace. The NL was so mediocre last season. Getting Santana probably makes them the best team in the National League. You're right that it doesn't guarantee them a World Series, but it gives them the best chance to win in a mediocre league.

[Spidey-Bat]

if they have to throw in martinez, it sounds like they're giving up a lot more than the sox or yanks would have.

That's because most of the prospects aren't major league ready. And the Yankees and Red Sox offers weren't blowing the Twins away. The Yankees never had Hughes in a deal and the Red Sox offers were a complete joke (seriously, Coco Crisp?).

[sinewave]

I seriously cannot imagine Santana being injury prone or a disappointment, especially in the NL. That is grasping for straws.

It is. He's never had arm problems, his mechanics are fine, his fastball is only 93, and his out-pitch is his change-up.

if you're throwing around that kind of money, you have to think of the wort-case scenario. chances are he'll be able to make 30+ starts per year over the course of his next contract, but every pitcher is susceptible to injury.

[Dark Donnie]

That's because most of the prospects aren't major league ready. And the Yankees and Red Sox offers weren't blowing the Twins away. The Yankees never had Hughes in a deal and the Red Sox offers were a complete joke (seriously, Coco Crisp?).

Every offer Ive read had Hughes in it...even ones not from ESPN.

[sinewave]

Now is the time for the Mets to get an ace. The NL was so mediocre last season. Getting Santana probably makes them the best team in the National League. You're right that it doesn't guarantee them a World Series, but it gives them the best chance to win in a mediocre league.

yeah, they need an ace more than any playoff contender in the NL. i haven't been keeping track, what's the rest of their rotation look like?

That's because most of the prospects aren't major league ready. And the Yankees and Red Sox offers weren't blowing the Twins away. The Yankees never had Hughes in a deal and the Red Sox offers were a complete joke (seriously, Coco Crisp?).

i could have sworn they agreed to throw in hughes for a while there. wasn't one of the yankees' deals for hughes, melky, another pitching prospect and then they balked at including kennedy? crisp wasn't the centerpiece of the sox's deal. i think that one was for lester, crisp, lowrie and either masterson or bowden. the other was ellsbury, lowrie, masterson and another lower prospect.

[Jerry!]

if you're throwing around that kind of money, you have to think of the wort-case scenario. chances are he'll be able to make 30+ starts per year over the course of his next contract, but every pitcher is susceptible to injury.

When you are talking about pitchers like Prior or Kerry Wood or Zito, yes you have to factor that in. Santana? If anything the biggest thing you have to worry about is him going up to bat.

[NewYorkSpider]

yeah, they need an ace more than any playoff contender in the NL. i haven't been keeping track, what's the rest of their rotation look like?


Their roatation will probably be this if they get Santana.

#1. Santana
#2. Perez
#3. Hernandez
#4. Maine
#5. Martinez


That's a pretty good roatation if their is no injuries.

[sinewave]

When you are talking about pitchers like Prior or Kerry Wood or Zito, yes you have to factor that in. Santana? If anything the biggest thing you have to worry about is him going up to bat.

zito wasn't injury prone, but yeah, throwing that kind of money at zito would require getting your head checked. what makes santana exempt from possible injuries? he could catch a line drive in his face or pitching hand and never be the same. he could slip on the mound during the pitch and tweak his shoulder or elbow. remember that pitcher for the devil rays who snapped his upper-arm bone (femur? humor?) on a pitch? pitchers are historically more injury prone than position players. that's why that kind of money is crazy to me.

[sinewave]

Their roatation will probably be this if they get Santana.

#1. Santana
#2. Perez
#3. Hernandez
#4. Maine
#5. Martinez


That's a pretty good roatation if their is no injuries.

that's a big "if" with pedro, but yeah, that's not a bad rotation.

[E. Nygma]

Their roatation will probably be this if they get Santana.

#1. Santana
#2. Perez
#3. Hernandez
#4. Maine
#5. Martinez


That's a pretty good roatation if their is no injuries.

Martinez the 5th starter!?

No way.....

Oliver Perez is inconsistent at best.

They would need it to be:

- Santana
- Martinez
- Maine
- Perez
- Hernandez

Perhaps switching Maine and Martinez. Pedro's ego is too large for him to be a number three.

[Jerry!]

zito wasn't injury prone, but yeah, throwing that kind of money at zito would require getting your head checked. what makes santana exempt from possible injuries? he could catch a line drive in his face or pitching hand and never be the same. he could slip on the mound during the pitch and tweak his shoulder or elbow. remember that pitcher for the devil rays who snapped his upper-arm bone (femur? humor?) on a pitch? pitchers are historically more injury prone than position players. that's why that kind of money is crazy to me.

That sounds like pussy excuses to me. Stuff like that shouldn't stop a deal from happening.

"OK well if Santana can't guarantee that no line drives will be hit up the middle towards him, I'm afraid we can't go along with the trade. Yeah, well sorry then."

Like it was said before, that is just the way the market is. Yes, he would be the highest paid pitcher, he is also the best. And that was in the AL.

[NewYorkSpider]

Martinez the 5th starter!?

No way.....

Oliver Perez is inconsistent at best.

They would need it to be:

- Santana
- Martinez
- Maine
- Perez
- Hernandez

Perhaps switching Maine and Martinez. Pedro's ego is too large for him to be a number three.

Martinez was injuried the most part of last season. If he gets injured again then that screws up your roatation.

Perez and Maine both won 15 games each last season. Could have been more if the bullpen didn't lose games down the stretch. They may even put Maine as the #2 starter to have a Lefty Righty Lefty top 3 roatation to confuse teams in a 3 game series.

[E. Nygma]

Martinez was injuried the most part of last season. If he gets injured again then that screws up your roatation.

Perez and Maine both won 15 games each last season. Could have been more if the bullpen didn't lose games down the stretch. They may even put Maine as the #2 starter to have a Lefty Righty Lefty top 3 roatation to confuse teams in a 3 game series.

Well then it will be 2. Maine and 3. Martinez like i said it could be. But no way is Pedro a 5.

[Spidey-Bat]

if you're throwing around that kind of money, you have to think of the wort-case scenario. chances are he'll be able to make 30+ starts per year over the course of his next contract, but every pitcher is susceptible to injury.
Every pitcher is but each is to a different degree. Depending upon Santana's medical records, they'll determine if he's worth the risk which, IMO, he is. The risk is likely nothing great either.

You shouldn't not make a trade because a guy could get injured. You shouldn't make a deal if he's been injury prone.

Every offer Ive read had Hughes in it...even ones not from ESPN.

i could have sworn they agreed to throw in hughes for a while there. wasn't one of the yankees' deals for hughes, melky, another pitching prospect and then they balked at including kennedy? crisp wasn't the centerpiece of the sox's deal. i think that one was for lester, crisp, lowrie and either masterson or bowden. the other was ellsbury, lowrie, masterson and another lower prospect.
The fact that Boston would only have to give up one of Lester and Ellsbury and keep Buchholz was laughable. The deal was still weak and showed they weren't serious. If they were, it would have been Lester and Ellsbury and others or Buchholz and Crisp and others.

My friend with sources told me the Yankees never wanted to trade Hughes and the Twins really wanted him in the deal. I believe him because he was right on a lot of things (Mets were interested in Bedard and he was spot on with their offer, Castillo would be re-signed, they weren't serious about Bartolo Colon, and some other things). If this isn't true, then the Twins likely wanted Hughes, Kennedy, Melky, and another prospect or Hughes, Melky, and 2 other prospects which the Yankees didn't want to give. The Yankees are really better off keeping what they have.

zito wasn't injury prone, but yeah, throwing that kind of money at zito would require getting your head checked. what makes santana exempt from possible injuries? he could catch a line drive in his face or pitching hand and never be the same. he could slip on the mound during the pitch and tweak his shoulder or elbow. remember that pitcher for the devil rays who snapped his upper-arm bone (femur? humor?) on a pitch? pitchers are historically more injury prone than position players. that's why that kind of money is crazy to me.
Zito is injury prone because he has poor mechanics and relies heavily on a curveball (most damaging pitch on the arm. See: Koufax, Sandy). Also look at his stats since 2002. His K's have been drastically decreasing, his BB/9 have been increasing, his K/BB decreasing, his WHIP has fluctuated and his ERA hasnt been lower than 3.80 since 2003. His signing was awful and it didn't even take the Giants a few years to regret it.

What makes Santana not injury prone? As I've said, mechanics and he relies mostly on a change up and doesn't have a flaming fastball.

Martinez the 5th starter!?

No way.....

Oliver Perez is inconsistent at best.

They would need it to be:

- Santana
- Martinez
- Maine
- Perez
- Hernandez

Perhaps switching Maine and Martinez. Pedro's ego is too large for him to be a number three.

Perez needs to cut down his blow up games. But he made tremendous strides this year considering how awful he was in 2006. He can be a #2 in the near future but definitely a #3 next year.

This will be the rotation with Santana:
Santana
Martinez
Perez
Maine
*Free Agent

El Duque will likely be in the bullpen since he can't stay healthy a full season. They may acquire either Kyle Lohse or more likely Livan Hernandez (he'd take a lesser deal) to be the 5th starter.

[NewYorkSpider]

Well then it will be 2. Maine and 3. Martinez like i said it could be. But no way is Pedro a 5.

I still think Pedro should be the #4 starter, maybe #3. I wouldn't put him at #2. Don't ask me why I would do that.

[Spidey-Bat]

Pedro will definitely be the #2. He pitched well after coming back from surgery. It doesn't really where you put the rest of them in the rotation so long as you have the best match ups in a series.

[NewYorkSpider]

He was like 3-1 when he came back right?

[Spidey-Bat]

Yeah. He pitched well enough to win every game he started.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=martipe02&t=p&year=2007

[sinewave]

That sounds like pussy excuses to me. Stuff like that shouldn't stop a deal from happening.

"OK well if Santana can't guarantee that no line drives will be hit up the middle towards him, I'm afraid we can't go along with the trade. Yeah, well sorry then."

Like it was said before, that is just the way the market is. Yes, he would be the highest paid pitcher, he is also the best. And that was in the AL.

i didn't say anything about not making the trade because of injury concerns, i said i wouldn't pay a pitcher, even the consensus best in baseball, $20 mill. a year. if they could make the deal without going over $15 mill. a year, sure, that'd be great. pitchers are just too overpaid for their sheer lack of playing time and level of risk of injury. throwing a ball 90+ is the most unorthodox movement in professional sports. you're wrenching your arm back and slamming it towards the ground at an insane speed. any pitcher, i don't care how good your mechanics are or how good your medical or coaching staff are, is going to get injured at some point in their career. tired arm, sprained elbow, torn labrum, stretched tendons, whatever. there's no way to avoid them. chances are there's gonna be a little tweak or a big tear or something else and it all relies on luck.

Every pitcher is but each is to a different degree. Depending upon Santana's medical records, they'll determine if he's worth the risk which, IMO, he is. The risk is likely nothing great either.

You shouldn't not make a trade because a guy could get injured. You shouldn't make a deal if he's been injury prone.

i didn't say he was injury prone. i said he was susceptible to injury, like every other pitcher.


The fact that Boston would only have to give up one of Lester and Ellsbury and keep Buchholz was laughable. The deal was still weak and showed they weren't serious. If they were, it would have been Lester and Ellsbury and others or Buchholz and Crisp and others.

why is it laughable? giving up three major-league ready starting players and a good prospect for one guy? it's not as many players as the mets are dangling, but you could do worse.

My friend with sources told me the Yankees never wanted to trade Hughes and the Twins really wanted him in the deal. I believe him because he was right on a lot of things (Mets were interested in Bedard and he was spot on with their offer, Castillo would be re-signed, they weren't serious about Bartolo Colon, and some other things). If this isn't true, then the Twins likely wanted Hughes, Kennedy, Melky, and another prospect or Hughes, Melky, and 2 other prospects which the Yankees didn't want to give. The Yankees are really better off keeping what they have.

inside source, eh? cool.

Zito is injury prone because he has poor mechanics and relies heavily on a curveball (most damaging pitch on the arm. See: Koufax, Sandy). Also look at his stats since 2002. His K's have been drastically decreasing, his BB/9 have been increasing, his K/BB decreasing, his WHIP has fluctuated and his ERA hasnt been lower than 3.80 since 2003. His signing was awful and it didn't even take the Giants a few years to regret it.

i was thinking about his injury history, which has been pretty good. he doesn't throw very hard, so he's a little bit less of a risk than a fireballer like beckett or verlander.

[Jerry!]

i didn't say anything about not making the trade because of injury concerns, i said i wouldn't pay a pitcher, even the consensus best in baseball, $20 mill. a year. if they could make the deal without going over $15 mill. a year, sure, that'd be great. pitchers are just too overpaid for their sheer lack of playing time and level of risk of injury. throwing a ball 90+ is the most unorthodox movement in professional sports. you're wrenching your arm back and slamming it towards the ground at an insane speed. any pitcher, i don't care how good your mechanics are or how good your medical or coaching staff are, is going to get injured at some point in their career. tired arm, sprained elbow, torn labrum, stretched tendons, whatever. there's no way to avoid them. chances are there's gonna be a little tweak or a big tear or something else and it all relies on luck.

giving up three major-league ready starting players and a good prospect for one guy? it's not as many players as the mets are dangling, but you could do worse.



So to you 15 million is a great deal, but 5 million more= forget about it? And you are putting way too much into how good you think Lester is. I understand hometown bias and everything and he is a great story, but come on. Some of those reported deals with Boston (which seem like BS) were a steal.

[Spidey-Bat]

i didn't say he was injury prone. i said he was susceptible to injury, like every other pitcher.
Everyone is susceptible to injury. The fact that he hasn't had any major injuries is significant.

why is it laughable? giving up three major-league ready starting players and a good prospect for one guy? it's not as many players as the mets are dangling, but you could do worse.
It's laughable because Crisp is really a 4th OF and the Twins could get more from them. It's not awful and more of a guarantee in what you're getting but there's really not a whole lot of upside.

inside source, eh? cool.
He knows someone who works in pitching development for a ML team. You can probably guess which team.

i was thinking about his injury history, which has been pretty good. he doesn't throw very hard, so he's a little bit less of a risk than a fireballer like beckett or verlander.
Zito makes an Inverted L (upper arm horizontal, forearm is vertical and bends down towards ground) with his left arm when he brings it back which can cause injury. BJ Ryan and Chris Carpenter do that, anything significant about them regarding injuries?

[NewYorkSpider]

Yankees are still talking to Twins about Santana.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3195926

[Spidey-Bat]

Hankenstein is the guy behind you who says "Hey, you have two kings!" when you're playing poker.

He actually contradicts himself. He said the Yankees' offer during the meetings would be taken off the table after that Wed. Now he says there never was an offer? He's just saying this for 2 reasons: a) he wants Yankee fans to think they were in on Santana until the end. b) he loves the publicity (since no one is saying anything on Santana, as they shouldn't be, anything he says gets printed).

People say don't believe him when he says the Yankees are out of it. I don't see why we should believe him when he says they are in it. Everything he's said on Santana hasn't been true.

[NewYorkSpider]

I really don't know what to believe at this point. I kept hearing that Hughes was in a deal, then I hear he wasn't in a deal at all. I keep hearing that the Yankees want to trade Hughes, then I hear they don't want to trade him. Steinbrenner said we would give Posada and Rivera 2 years, we give them 3 years and 4 years. We won't sign A-Rod if he opts out. We signed him. Hank Steinbrenner is a retard.

[Spidey-Bat]

I'm not believing anything Hank is saying. He's been wrong ever since he took over. He didn't want anyone who didn't want to be a Yankee, then A-Rod is back. He gave the Twins an ultimatum, then it disappeared. He said a deal is on the table and he thinks it's the best, now a deal never was on the table.

[sinewave]

So to you 15 million is a great deal, but 5 million more= forget about it? And you are putting way too much into how good you think Lester is. I understand hometown bias and everything and he is a great story, but come on. Some of those reported deals with Boston (which seem like BS) were a steal.

nobody knows how good lester is. he's pitched parts of two seasons interrupted by cancer, yet he dominated in his start in the world series, at colorado. he's young, he's got a ton of talent, he's proven he can succeed at the major league level and he's cancer-free. what's not to like about that?

Everyone is susceptible to injury. The fact that he hasn't had any major injuries is significant.

i'm playing devi's advocate. there's a very good chance he'll stay healthy and produce up to his usual standards or higher in a great pitcher's ballpark in the NL.

It's laughable because Crisp is really a 4th OF and the Twins could get more from them. It's not awful and more of a guarantee in what you're getting but there's really not a whole lot of upside.

could be, but i bet if you trade crisp to a team like milwaukee or pittsburgh he'd put up really good numbers. i don't think he can hack it in boston. but a gold-glove caliber CF with a little pop, decent speed and a vague idea of the strike zone ain't all bad, y'know?

I really don't know what to believe at this point. I kept hearing that Hughes was in a deal, then I hear he wasn't in a deal at all. I keep hearing that the Yankees want to trade Hughes, then I hear they don't want to trade him. Steinbrenner said we would give Posada and Rivera 2 years, we give them 3 years and 4 years. We won't sign A-Rod if he opts out. We signed him. Hank Steinbrenner is a retard.

look who he learned from.

[strikezone89]

Yankees are still talking to Twins about Santana.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3195926

hells ya.
they need him

[Spidey-Bat]

nobody knows how good lester is. he's pitched parts of two seasons interrupted by cancer, yet he dominated in his start in the world series, at colorado. he's young, he's got a ton of talent, he's proven he can succeed at the major league level and he's cancer-free. what's not to like about that?
He hasn't put up anything lower than a 4 ERA at the majors. Dominating in Colorado is nothing amazing now with the humidor. Also the Rockies were completely overmatched.

i'm playing devi's advocate. there's a very good chance he'll stay healthy and produce up to his usual standards or higher in a great pitcher's ballpark in the NL.
Agreed. Passing on him because he could be injured is foolish though. If he had a history of injuries like Rich Harden, it's a different situation.

could be, but i bet if you trade crisp to a team like milwaukee or pittsburgh he'd put up really good numbers. i don't think he can hack it in boston. but a gold-glove caliber CF with a little pop, decent speed and a vague idea of the strike zone ain't all bad, y'know?
Yeah, but those teams aren't interested in him. If the Red Sox did pull off Santana for him, it'd be such a steal.

hells ya.
they need him

It's likely not true since Hankenstein has been wrong on everything. They also don't need him. Hank just wants him because he thinks the Yankees are entitled to him.

[Jerry!]

Coco Crisp is **** to the Red Sox. What the hell would they be losing if they had given him up in a trade for Santana? A babysitter for Ellsbury's spot?

[sinewave]

He hasn't put up anything lower than a 4 ERA at the majors. Dominating in Colorado is nothing amazing now with the humidor. Also the Rockies were completely overmatched.

he's had a limited amount of experience in the bigs, less than 150 innings pitched. he just turned 24 and he's proven he can handle the pressure of a big game situation against an excellent hitting ballclub like colorado. have you seen him pitch? yeah, he gets himself into jams by walking guys, but he's also amazing at pitching out of those jams. i'd take a somewhat proven commodity like lester over an unknown like hughes any day of the week.

Agreed. Passing on him because he could be injured is foolish though. If he had a history of injuries like Rich Harden, it's a different situation.

again, i wouldn't pass on him because of a chance of injury. just throwing the idea out there and trying to show why i think pitchers are more overpaid than hitters these days.

Yeah, but those teams aren't interested in him. If the Red Sox did pull off Santana for him, it'd be such a steal.

i know they're not. i think he's still a good player with some upside. he just can't handle the boston atmosphere for some reason. minnesota might be a great place for him to play. he thrived in the al central with the indians and the baggy dome is a decent hitter's park.

Coco Crisp is **** to the Red Sox. What the hell would they be losing if they had given him up in a trade for Santana? A babysitter for Ellsbury's spot?

he's not as bad as you're making him out to be. he's no carlos beltran, but he's got some value on the right team. look what he did with cleveland.

[Dark Donnie]

It's likely not true since Hankenstein has been wrong on everything. They also don't need him. Hank just wants him because he thinks the Yankees are entitled to him.

Going by last year's stats The Yankees are in more of a need of hmi them The Mets....Based off ERA and such

[sinewave]

Going by last year's stats The Yankees are in more of a need of hmi them The Mets....Based off ERA and such

on paper it looks like the yankees have a stronger, deeper rotation. with guys like wang, pettitte, hughes, chamberlain, mussina and kennedy, they should be able to put together a fairly effective, if not dominating rotation. the mets look kind of weak with just pedro, perez, maine and hernandez. pedro's good when he's healthy, which isn't often enough; perez is way too inconsistent; maine seems to be getting better every year; and hernandez is old and injury prone (there's that term again), but effective when healthy. they could definitely benefit more from a proven ace. i think the yankees can get by with wang as their ace a good mix of veterans and polished rookies backing him up.

[Dark Donnie]

Is Chamberlain defiantely going to the rotation?

[sinewave]

from what i've heard, yeah.

[Dark Donnie]

I just checked it seems he is....actually looking back now, The Yankees staff doesn't look bad at all.

[Superman79]

Is Chamberlain defiantely going to the rotation?


HAHAHAHA!!!

He's gonna get rocked!
Look back at his experience as a starter with Nebraska...he's good for about 2-3 innings, then the moment one bad thing happens, he sieziures up and starts to pitch like he's playing beer league softball...this is great news!! :D

[Spidey-Bat]

sinewave, I'll respond to your reply later. I have a headache now.

Going by last year's stats The Yankees are in more of a need of hmi them The Mets....Based off ERA and such

The Mets need him more. Take into account half of their rotation is over 35 and likely to go on the DL and the other half is under 30 and can't be counted to step up and be an ace. They also suffered the biggest September collapse in history and have more motivation because of that.

[sinewave]

sinewave, I'll respond to your reply later. I have a headache now.

am i that long-winded? :woot:

[Jerry!]

he's not as bad as you're making him out to be. he's no carlos beltran, but he's got some value on the right team. look what he did with cleveland.


He is worthless to the RED SOX. The RED SOX. That is why it would be such a steal, the Red Sox wouldn't really be losing a player that would be with them for much longer anyway.

[Spidey-Bat]

he's had a limited amount of experience in the bigs, less than 150 innings pitched. he just turned 24 and he's proven he can handle the pressure of a big game situation against an excellent hitting ballclub like colorado. have you seen him pitch? yeah, he gets himself into jams by walking guys, but he's also amazing at pitching out of those jams. i'd take a somewhat proven commodity like lester over an unknown like hughes any day of the week.
Livan Hernandez also gets in and out of jams. Lester will be a #3, maybe flashes of a #2. He's definitely not an ace.


again, i wouldn't pass on him because of a chance of injury. just throwing the idea out there and trying to show why i think pitchers are more overpaid than hitters these days.
I agree. But when you have a guy with a resume and durability Santana has, there really isn't such a thing as overpaying him.

i know they're not. i think he's still a good player with some upside. he just can't handle the boston atmosphere for some reason. minnesota might be a great place for him to play. he thrived in the al central with the indians and the baggy dome is a decent hitter's park.
His good years with Cleveland were 3 years ago. He's all glove, little bat. He'd be better for Philly or Houston. He's not a guy the Twins should be asking for.

[sinewave]

He is worthless to the RED SOX. The RED SOX. That is why it would be such a steal, the Red Sox wouldn't really be losing a player that would be with them for much longer anyway.

true, he's the one they're most willing to part with.

Livan Hernandez also gets in and out of jams. Lester will be a #3, maybe flashes of a #2. He's definitely not an ace.

he projects higher than a #3, but he may end up being one. hopefully a solid #2.

I agree. But when you have a guy with a resume and durability Santana has, there really isn't such a thing as overpaying him.

depends on the team, i guess. there's no way the royals are gonna pay $20+ mill. for him. if he was asking $30 mill. nobody would bite because that'd be overpaying, so i think there is such a thing as overpaying for him.

His good years with Cleveland were 3 years ago. He's all glove, little bat. He'd be better for Philly or Houston. He's not a guy the Twins should be asking for.

3 years ago isn't a long time when you consider he's still only 28. he's had some injury problems with boston that affected his power and bat speed. he's improved his base stealing and defense since his time with cleveland and he's got a decent eye at the plate and doesn't strike out that much. at the very least his bat is comparable to gary matthews jr., david dejesus and johnny damon in CF, with better defense than all three, at a fraction of the cost of matthews and damon. he'd be fine in minnesota.

[Spidey-Bat]

he projects higher than a #3, but he may end up being one. hopefully a solid #2.
He projected as an ace years ago. His minor league number aren't very impressive either.

depends on the team, i guess. there's no way the royals are gonna pay $20+ mill. for him. if he was asking $30 mill. nobody would bite because that'd be overpaying, so i think there is such a thing as overpaying for him.
He's not asking for $30M a year. The most he will make is $20M and some believe that's higher than what he'll get.

3 years ago isn't a long time when you consider he's still only 28. he's had some injury problems with boston that affected his power and bat speed. he's improved his base stealing and defense since his time with cleveland and he's got a decent eye at the plate and doesn't strike out that much. at the very least his bat is comparable to gary matthews jr., david dejesus and johnny damon in CF, with better defense than all three, at a fraction of the cost of matthews and damon. he'd be fine in minnesota.
He's 28. Not a lot of room for improvement. The Twins are stupid to get him. He's a fine complementary player, but the Twins want a young player with upside (something Crisp isn't) to build their team around in addition to guys like Morneau, Mauer, and Young.

[Dark Donnie]

Why hasn't big Livan signed yet? I read he wanted to pitch with The Marlins, but they don't have the cash.

[Spidey-Bat]

No teams aren't desperate enough yet.

[Jerry!]

White Sox White Sox Go Go White Sox.

[Spidey-Bat]

I hope you're prepared as to how awful they will be this year.

[Kingfish]

honestly, i wouldnt be at all surprised if the sox finished in 5th.

[sinewave]

He projected as an ace years ago. His minor league number aren't very impressive either.

:huh: so you know more about him than the countless talent evaluators who are still high on him? he just turned 24 last week. he missed a year due to cancer and still came back and pitched well enough to make a good WS start. and what's this nonsense about his stats in the minors not being impressive? in '05 at the age of 21 he pitched 148.1 innings while giving up 114 hits, walked 57 and struck out 163 with a 2.61 ERA at double-A. he was young for that league and still dominated. what more do you want from a pitching prospect?

He's not asking for $30M a year. The most he will make is $20M and some believe that's higher than what he'll get.

you said there's no such thing as overpaying for a pitcher of his caliber and i argued that that's not true. $20 mill. is like $30 mill. to a team like the royals or pittsburgh, so obviously that'd be overpaying to them. he may end up being worth whatever he gets, but there's a good chance that he, or any other pitcher, won't.

He's 28. Not a lot of room for improvement. The Twins are stupid to get him. He's a fine complementary player, but the Twins want a young player with upside (something Crisp isn't) to build their team around in addition to guys like Morneau, Mauer, and Young.

he's already shown he can hit for a higher average and more power in the right situation. he's had injuries that have sapped his power and put him back a notch or two in terms of bat speed. if he can get healthy and get his swing and timing back to normal, i see no reason why he can't get back to his pre-boston numbers with another team, which would make him one of the better CFs in the AL, maybe around the 6th or 7th best in the league, offensively speaking. maybe i'm being biased or overly optimistic, but that's how i see it.

on a side note, i think you and i have debated crisp's abilities more than anything else on these boards over the last couple of years.

[Jerry!]

I hope you're prepared as to how awful they will be this year.

I don't think it will be as bad as last year, hopefully we finish ahead of the Royals. There were some things that happened last year I've never seen before, ever. The entire team hit like around .200 for like the first couple of months of the season. It was unbelievable. As for that post, I was responding that it would be a team like the White Sox who would pick up Livan, touting it as a big move or something.

[Spidey-Bat]

:huh: so you know more about him than the countless talent evaluators who are still high on him? he just turned 24 last week. he missed a year due to cancer and still came back and pitched well enough to make a good WS start. and what's this nonsense about his stats in the minors not being impressive? in '05 at the age of 21 he pitched 148.1 innings while giving up 114 hits, walked 57 and struck out 163 with a 2.61 ERA at double-A. he was young for that league and still dominated. what more do you want from a pitching prospect?
A sub 4 ERA in the majors if he's so highly touted.

you said there's no such thing as overpaying for a pitcher of his caliber and i argued that that's not true. $20 mill. is like $30 mill. to a team like the royals or pittsburgh, so obviously that'd be overpaying to them. he may end up being worth whatever he gets, but there's a good chance that he, or any other pitcher, won't.
The Royals and Pirates aren't in on him. The Mets/Yanks/Sox can afford to give him the money so giving him $20M a year isnt overpaying him.

he's already shown he can hit for a higher average and more power in the right situation. he's had injuries that have sapped his power and put him back a notch or two in terms of bat speed. if he can get healthy and get his swing and timing back to normal, i see no reason why he can't get back to his pre-boston numbers with another team, which would make him one of the better CFs in the AL, maybe around the 6th or 7th best in the league, offensively speaking. maybe i'm being biased or overly optimistic, but that's how i see it.

on a side note, i think you and i have debated crisp's abilities more than anything else on these boards over the last couple of years.

Yeah ok, he has some talent that if he's in the right situation he can be productive. The truth is on the Red Sox, he's a 4th OF with a glove. Doesn't matter what he did 3 years ago, the point is he sucks now. He's neither a guy worth keeping nor a guy worth trading for. If teams thought he was any good, why has no one persued him? He'd certainly be a better option than Mark Kotsay for the Braves

[cyborg ninja 14]

Why hasn't big Livan signed yet? I read he wanted to pitch with The Marlins, but they don't have the cash.

Is it,

A. Livan sucks that much

or

B. The Marlins are that cheap

:huh:

[E. Nygma]

Is it,

A. Livan sucks that much

or

B. The Marlins are that cheap

:huh:

Survey says, B

[sinewave]

A sub 4 ERA in the majors if he's so highly touted.

give the kid a full season, a healthy one, and see what he can do.

The Royals and Pirates aren't in on him. The Mets/Yanks/Sox can afford to give him the money so giving him $20M a year isnt overpaying him.

to me it is, but whatevs. we're getting nowhere.

Yeah ok, he has some talent that if he's in the right situation he can be productive. The truth is on the Red Sox, he's a 4th OF with a glove. Doesn't matter what he did 3 years ago, the point is he sucks now. He's neither a guy worth keeping nor a guy worth trading for. If teams thought he was any good, why has no one persued him? He'd certainly be a better option than Mark Kotsay for the Braves

true. no idea why teams aren't asking for crisp. probably because they're still dangling him for santana, if they're even serious about that. he'll be dealt... eventually.

[NewYorkSpider]

Going by last year's stats The Yankees are in more of a need of hmi them The Mets....Based off ERA and such

The Mets need him more. The Yankees offense can produce enough runs for us to win high scoring games. You don't need a pitcher of that calibur if that's the case.

Is Chamberlain defiantely going to the rotation?

Yes, and it's a stupid move if you ask me. He should be are set-up pitcher untill Rivera is gone. Then move him into the closer role.

[Jerry!]

Yup, they will be paying for that decision dearly. For their sake, they better realize that mistake, but I doubt it. Steinbrenner amazes me each and every day.

[Spidey-Bat]

If Chamberlain can start, he should. 200 innings is more than 80.

[Jerry!]

Gotta have a strong bullpen. What would you take 80 great innings in crucial times or 200 innings of "not sure what the hell we are going to get".

[Spidey-Bat]

You don't know what you're going to get from him in 80 innings. He only pitched one-fourth of that last year.

[Jerry!]

I'd go on that impression of him in the Majors rather than his starting in the Minors. If he was just average in his relief role, I'd say go for it. Move him to the rotation. But what he has done in that role was amazing. You know Rivera won't be lasting more than another few years maybe. You can't measure the impact he had on the dynasty years with the Yankees. They are going to need Chamberlain in that spot if he is as good as he looks so far.

[LuiECuomo]

I hope you're prepared as to how awful they will be this year.

Yep, acquiring a Golden Glover shortstop, a strong, seasoned relief pitcher, a handful of new outfielders and a dangerous utility man in Nick Swisher will REALLY hurt us.

[Jerry!]

...who the hell are you?


But anyway, we're still light years away from Cleveland and Detroit. I'd still put the Twins over the White Sox right now. They should be better than last season, it'd be hard not to, but don't be hoping for the playoffs. 3rd place finish at best.

[NewYorkSpider]

If the Twins trade Santana, then Chicago has a shot at 3rd place. But who knows, there is always a surprise team to come out of nowhere.

[Fran]

Yep, acquiring a Golden Glover shortstop, a strong, seasoned relief pitcher, a handful of new outfielders and a dangerous utility man in Nick Swisher will REALLY hurt us.

Compared to Detroit acquiring a former All-Star pitcher, who has the chance to be one again, and a current All-Star who is one of the most dangerous hitters in the league?

Say hello to fourth place.

[Dark Donnie]

Jon Lieber-S-Phillies Jan. 16 - 12:04 pm et

Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com reports that the Cubs have signed Jon Lieber to a one-year contract.

Lieber is the last Cubs pitcher to win 20 games and pitched for the team from 1999-2002, but missed much of last season with a foot injury and will soon be 38 years old. He's reportedly been assured that he'll have a spot in the Cubs' rotation, which Rosenthal speculates could lead to a Jason Marquis trade or Ryan Dempster returning to the bullpen.
Source: FOXSports.com
Related: Cubs

[Jerry!]

I remember when Lieber pitched for the Cubs. The radio talk show hosts would always warn listeners to pay extra attention if you attended a game Lieber pitched in, because he arm could be flying off his body towards you in the stands.

[Spidey-Bat]

If the Twins trade Santana, then Chicago has a shot at 3rd place. But who knows, there is always a surprise team to come out of nowhere.

More likely the surprise will be the Twins. They're really not that bad.

[steintym]

If the Twins trade Santana, then Chicago has a shot at 3rd place. But who knows, there is always a surprise team to come out of nowhere.

I'm a huge Chi Sox fan and I'm totally preparing myself for a rough season. There's always that team that surprises you, but I just don't see it being the Sox.

Cleveland isn't going anywhere and the loaded Tigers did nothing but help themselves. The moves the Sox made would be good if they were coming off of a championship, not the mess from last year. :whatever:

[E. Nygma]

Jon Lieber-S-Phillies Jan. 16 - 12:04 pm et

Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com reports that the Cubs have signed Jon Lieber to a one-year contract.

Lieber is the last Cubs pitcher to win 20 games and pitched for the team from 1999-2002, but missed much of last season with a foot injury and will soon be 38 years old. He's reportedly been assured that he'll have a spot in the Cubs' rotation, which Rosenthal speculates could lead to a Jason Marquis trade or Ryan Dempster returning to the bullpen.
Source: FOXSports.com
Related: Cubs

Lieber is fat and out of shape and wont be effective until September, but hey that may be what matters for the Cubs.

[Jerry!]

Where the hell have all these White Sox fans been?

[NewYorkSpider]

More likely the surprise will be the Twins. They're really not that bad.

If they keep Santana then they'll be very good. If Lirano stays healthy they should be one of the best 1-2 pitching combos of the year.

I'm a huge Chi Sox fan and I'm totally preparing myself for a rough season. There's always that team that surprises you, but I just don't see it being the Sox.

Cleveland isn't going anywhere and the loaded Tigers did nothing but help themselves. The moves the Sox made would be good if they were coming off of a championship, not the mess from last year. :whatever:

You're right, the Chicago White Sox won't be the surprise next year. The Twins will be good if they keep their star lefty. It's always hard to figure out the surprise team. Who the hell thought the Rockies would be in the World Series?

I'd also watch out for the Cincinnati Reds next season. They won't make the playoffs this season, but will be a contender down the stretch.

[Jerry!]

I'd say any team in the NL Central has a chance to get to the playoffs. It's just bad all around.

[NewYorkSpider]

Whoever wins 85-90 games will win the division. The Brewers and Cubs should be good again this season.

[Jerry!]

I guess by NL Central's standards that could be called good.

[NewYorkSpider]

Pretty much.

I wish baseball would get here faster. http://forums.superherohype.com/images/icons/icon9.gif I'm ****ing bored out of my mind.

[Spidey-Bat]

Same here. I miss watching a baseball game. At this point I'd take a Pirates/Royals game with an awful announcer.

[NewYorkSpider]

I taped the last 5 World Series. My dad also has game 7 of the '86 World Series on tape. Might have to get that out and watch it.

[Spidey-Bat]

Do you have the 2003 WS? That is the only one of the last 5 that wouldn't put me to sleep.

[NewYorkSpider]

Yes. :csad:

I believe every series after that went only 4 or 5 games. I'm hoping for a game 7 World Series this season.

[Spidey-Bat]

Yes. :csad:

I believe every series after that went only 4 or 5 games. I'm hoping for a game 7 World Series this season.

2004, 2005, and 2007 were 4 games. 2006 was 5. At least one Championship series has been more exciting than the WS in the past 4 years. 2007 was good with the Indians/Red Sox, 2006 the Mets/Cards, 2005 Cards/Astros, 2004 both CS were good but the Yankees/Red Sox was the best. 2003 had two very good CS games as well. 2003 had such a great post-season.

This year, I'd like to see the Mets and Dodgers in the NLCS and Tigers and Indians in the ALCS.

[NewYorkSpider]

2004, 2005, and 2007 were 4 games. 2006 was 5. At least one Championship series has been more exciting than the WS in the past 4 years. 2007 was good with the Indians/Red Sox, 2006 the Mets/Cards, 2005 Cards/Astros, 2004 both CS were good but the Yankees/Red Sox was the best. 2003 had two very good CS games as well. 2003 had such a great post-season.

This year, I'd like to see the Mets and Dodgers in the NLCS and Tigers and Indians in the ALCS.


Yeah, 2003 had a great postseason and was very memorable. My friends and I always talk about it since all our teams were in it (Yankees, Braves, Red Sox and Cubs). Will never forget Boone's walk off HR and the Steve Bartman foul ball. Just an all around great postseason. Another one of my favorite games was game 4 of the 2004 NLDS between the Braves/Astros. Game went 18 innings.

I'd like to see a Dodgers/Yankees, Mets/Yankees, Mets/Red Sox World Series this year. I'd also like to see the Cubs win the World Series cuase it's been 100 years since they last won it.

[Spidey-Bat]

I'd hate a Mets/Yankees WS. I hate how anti-NY a lot of other fans are. A WS with those 2 would make things worse. Also Randolph would let the Yankees win since he's a Yankee.

[NewYorkSpider]

I want to see it because if the Yankees win, then my team wins. If the Mets win then I'll be gald cause they deserve it. There's a lot of other WS I want to see, but those are the one's that I'd probably watch all the way through.

[Showtime]

I taped the last 5 World Series. My dad also has game 7 of the '86 World Series on tape. Might have to get that out and watch it.

Featuring Tony Armas?!

[Robin91939]

Anyone think that we should have a thread....around February (after pitchers and catchers report and rosters are....for the most part set) where we make playoff tree predictions based on the moves and acquisitions of the off season so that when October rolls around we can all say "I told ya so" and "I didn't see that coming" etc. I think it would be interesting to have a little friendly competition to see who can come the closest to predicting the 8 playoff teams in February. Sports Illustrated does it, why not us?

National League
East:Philadelphia Phillies
Central:Milwaukee Brewers
West:Colorado Rockies
WildCard:Arizona Diamondbacks

American League:
East:Boston Redsox
Central: Detroit Tigers
West: Los Angeles Angels
Wildcard:Cleavland Indians

This will be the first season in a while to not see a New York team in the post season. I think regardless of who makes the World Series in the National League (My money is on either the Phillies or Rockies) neither or any of the National League teams are match for the dominance of those four American League teams. Cleavland will have over 90 wins as a wildcard. Boston will have Beckett, Schilling, and possibly Santana. Their offense and experienced pitching make them a favorite going into 2008.

But it was the moves that the Detroit Tigers made this offseason, signing Dontrelle Willis and Miguel Cabrera that is making them my pick for the World Series champion. They have the best lineup in baseball, perhaps of all-time. It boasts Ivan Rodriguez, Miguel Cabrera, Gary Sheffield, Magglio Ordonez, Jacque Jones, Edgar Renteria, Placido Polanco, Carlos Guillen, Brandon Inge, and Curtis Granderson. They have the right mix of young talent, experience and raw power to overthrow Boston as the new champs. And with the pitching of Verlander, Rogers, Willis and Bonderman....there's not much else you can say.

Anyone else have any predictions for 2008? Any dark horses? Any upsets?

-R

[Spidey-Bat]

Phillies win the division? That's a good one. They took a big loss with Rowand and their pitching still sucks. Rotation is slightly better with Myers but the bullpen still blows. Lidge isn't going to cut it in Philly.

Report from the Minny Tribune said the Twins know what they will get for Santana will not make fans happy. They are currently "intrigued" by the Mets offer of the 3 pitchers and 2 OFs (maybe only one of them, still unknown). It's looking like the Mets will get Santana if he's traded.

[Dark Donnie]

I just read that The Twins are holding out for that Martinez(I think thats who it was) Phillies have a good shot at winning the division still without Rowand.

[Spidey-Bat]

I just read that The Twins are holding out for that Martinez(I think thats who it was)
Probably is Martinez. Mets really want to hold onto him. One of them will have to give in (my money is on the Twins doing so) if they want a trade done. Hopefully it ends soon.

Phillies have a good shot at winning the division still without Rowand.
Their pitching still blows. And that's putting it lightly.

[Dark Donnie]

Probably is Martinez. Mets really want to hold onto him. One of them will have to give in (my money is on the Twins doing so) if they want a trade done. Hopefully it ends soon.


Their pitching still blows. And that's putting it lightly.

Myers going back to the rotation helps alot though, if Lidge can reclaim any of his oldself then well be ok.

[cyborg ninja 14]

Myers going back to the rotation helps alot though, if Lidge can reclaim any of his oldself then well be ok.

I hope this isn't going in the direction of "Ever since the Pujols homer in the '05 NLCS, Lidge has never been the same ect."

[E. Nygma]

Phillies win the division? That's a good one. They took a big loss with Rowand and their pitching still sucks. Rotation is slightly better with Myers but the bullpen still blows. Lidge isn't going to cut it in Philly.

Report from the Minny Tribune said the Twins know what they will get for Santana will not make fans happy. They are currently "intrigued" by the Mets offer of the 3 pitchers and 2 OFs (maybe only one of them, still unknown). It's looking like the Mets will get Santana if he's traded.

Aaron Rowand is a career 280 hitter.....

Do you have factual evidence that Lidge wont cut it? Or is that just an assumption.

The Phillies bullpen will be strides better than last year, as will their entire rotation. J.C Romero and Kyle Kendrick greatly improved our rotation for the second half of last year, now we have them a full year.

The only reason the Phillies even trailed the Mets for the division come Septmember was because Utley, Myers, Hamels, Howard, Victorino, Tom Gordon all missed SIGNIFICANT time to injury.

The Phillies may not be better than they were last year, but neither is anyone else in the east. Phils stay healthy, they win the east.

[Dark Donnie]

I hope this isn't going in the direction of "Ever since the Pujols homer in the '05 NLCS, Lidge has never been the same ect."

I think he pitched better at certain points last year, but he has been a stinker since. He was lights out before that.

[sinewave]

Phillies win the division? That's a good one. They took a big loss with Rowand and their pitching still sucks. Rotation is slightly better with Myers but the bullpen still blows. Lidge isn't going to cut it in Philly.

is the difference in production between rowand and a platoon of geoff jenkins and jayson werth that much? is there even a drop-off? rowand hit a bit above his career norms last year, but that was most likely due playing half his games in a great hitter's park and actually staying healthy for once. if you look at jenkins' numbers against righties and werth's against lefties, they make a pretty decent platoon pair. looking at their numbers over the last three years, jenkins hit .292 with a .365 obp and slugged .504 against righties, while werth hit .316 with a .413 obp and slugged .471 against lefties. sure, jenkins is getting up there in age, but he's still productive enough to play part-time. they might experience a bit of a drop-off in defense by moving victorino over to CF, but probably not enough to cost them the division. their pitching isn't spectacular, but it's no worse than any other team's in their division, barring the mets trading for santana. on paper it looks like they've got a legitimate shot at that division.

[E. Nygma]

is the difference in production between rowand and a platoon of geoff jenkins and jayson werth that much? is there even a drop-off? rowand hit a bit above his career norms last year, but that was most likely due playing half his games in a great hitter's park and actually staying healthy for once. if you look at jenkins' numbers against righties and werth's against lefties, they make a pretty decent platoon pair. looking at their numbers over the last three years, jenkins hit .292 with a .365 obp and slugged .504 against righties, while werth hit .316 with a .413 obp and slugged .471 against lefties. sure, jenkins is getting up there in age, but he's still productive enough to play part-time. they might experience a bit of a drop-off in defense by moving victorino over to CF, but probably not enough to cost them the division. their pitching isn't spectacular, but it's no worse than any other team's in their division, barring the mets trading for santana. on paper it looks like they've got a legitimate shot at that division.

exactly, and i'd be willing to bet that with this year not being a contract year for Rowand, the fact that he's playing in a much worse offensive lineup, and the fact that he isn't playing 81 games at CBP, that he probably wont hit 300. this year. And if he does, it certainly wont be 312 with almost 30 HR's and 100 RBI's.

[cyborg ninja 14]

I think he pitched better at certain points last year, but he has been a stinker since. He was lights out before that.

True, but if wouldn't groove those thigh high fastballs like he has been doing the last couple of years, yes he would be better. But Citizens Bank isn't a good park factor if Lidge continues his propensity to give up homers and XB hits.

[Spidey-Bat]

Aaron Rowand is a career 280 hitter.....
Thanks to Citizen's Bank Park, his stats were inflated. He's better than Victorino and the RF platoon. He was also a good influence off the field.

Do you have factual evidence that Lidge wont cut it? Or is that just an assumption.
He couldn't cut it in Houston. You think he's going to fare any better in a worse ballpark with a vicious fanbase?

The Phillies bullpen will be strides better than last year, as will their entire rotation. J.C Romero and Kyle Kendrick greatly improved our rotation for the second half of last year, now we have them a full year.
Kendrick? Yes. Romero? His stats with Philly were a fluke. He's this year's Scott Schoeneweis. Lefty reliever, sucked first half, pitched lights out 2nd half, then gets 3 year deal. He'll put up a 4 ERA at best. The rest of the pen still sucks. Can't expect Gordon, Lidge, and Romero to carry them.

The only reason the Phillies even trailed the Mets for the division come Septmember was because Utley, Myers, Hamels, Howard, Victorino, Tom Gordon all missed SIGNIFICANT time to injury.
Mets' had injuries to Perez, Jorge Sosa (when he was pitching well), Valentin, Alou, Easley, Green, Beltran, Wagner (had back spasms), and Delgado. The Phillies weren't a good team. They just rode the Mets futility to the playoffs.

The Phillies may not be better than they were last year, but neither is anyone else in the east. Phils stay healthy, they win the east.
If the Mets or Braves stay healthy, they'll have a chance at the division as well.

[E. Nygma]

True, but if wouldn't groove those thigh high fastballs like he has been doing the last couple of years, yes he would be better. But Citizens Bank isn't a good park factor if Lidge continues his propensity to give up homers and XB hits.

I think Lidge is going to have a solid year in Philadelphia. I know all signs point the other way, but what i think Brad needs is a change of scenery, a chance to leave his demons (ALBERT PUJOLS!) behind him, which he will in a new division for a new team, a competitive playoff caliber team. With a lineup that should able to produce enough offense that he wont be over used, and might not even have more than 40-45 save opportunities with anyway. I think he's capable of converting 35+ of those?

[Spidey-Bat]

I think Lidge is going to have a solid year in Philadelphia. I know all signs point the other way, but what i think Brad needs is a change of scenery, a chance to leave his demons (ALBERT PUJOLS!) behind him, which he will in a new division for a new team, a competitive playoff caliber team. With a lineup that should able to produce enough offense that he wont be over used, and might not even have more than 40-45 save opportunities with anyway. I think he's capable of converting 35+ of those?

He needs a change of scenery to somewhere like San Diego or San Francisco. Calm fan base and a big stadium. He's going to be awful in Philly.

Joe Borowski led the AL in saves (45) but had a 5.07 ERA. Expect that from Lidge.

[cyborg ninja 14]

I think Lidge is going to have a solid year in Philadelphia. I know all signs point the other way, but what i think Brad needs is a change of scenery, a chance to leave his demons (ALBERT PUJOLS!) behind him, which he will in a new division for a new team, a competitive playoff caliber team. With a lineup that should able to produce enough offense that he wont be over used, and might not even have more than 40-45 save opportunities with anyway. I think he's capable of converting 35+ of those?

First, enough with the Pujols thing. I doubt everytime Lidge goes out there and thinks to himself, "man, I hope I don't blow it like that Pujols homer 3 years ago." instead of focusing on the task at and of whatever team he's facing. Closers blow saves, sometimes in the playoffs. It happens. He does have a better offense in Philly, which should give him more closing opportunites which I think we should all agree with. Pitching in parks like Shea, Florida, and Atlanta will also help his numbers I believe. As opposed to Minute Maid, Wrigley, and Great American Ballpark.

[cyborg ninja 14]

He needs a change of scenery to somewhere like San Diego or San Francisco. Calm fan base and a big stadium. He's going to be awful in Philly.

Joe Borowski led the AL in saves (45) but had a 5.07 ERA. Expect that from Lidge.

Borowski faced tougher lineups, and doesn't have the "stuff" that Lidge currently does.

[Spidey-Bat]

Borowski faced tougher lineups, and doesn't have the "stuff" that Lidge currently does.

I used him more as an example of how good save numbers are in judging closers. Lidge had a 5.28 ERA in 2006 so it's not impossible.

Let's not forget the Phillies still have no 3B.

[sinewave]

Thanks to Citizen's Bank Park, his stats were inflated. He's better than Victorino and the RF platoon. He was also a good influence off the field.

he's moving from an extreme hitter's park to an extreme pitcher's park and he's only played more than 140 games in a season twice. not only that, but the lineup around him will be lousy. i really have a hard time believing he's going to put up anything close to what he did last year, even if he stays healthy the whole year. i'll make a bet with you right now; both victorino and the platoon in RF will outperform rowand.

[Dark Donnie]

I used him more as an example of how good save numbers are in judging closers. Lidge had a 5.28 ERA in 2006 so it's not impossible.

Let's not forget the Phillies still have no 3B.

They have to get someone:csad:

[sinewave]

First, enough with the Pujols thing. I doubt everytime Lidge goes out there and thinks to himself, "man, I hope I don't blow it like that Pujols homer 3 years ago." instead of focusing on the task at and of whatever team he's facing. Closers blow saves, sometimes in the playoffs. It happens. He does have a better offense in Philly, which should give him more closing opportunites which I think we should all agree with. Pitching in parks like Shea, Florida, and Atlanta will also help his numbers I believe. As opposed to Minute Maid, Wrigley, and Great American Ballpark.

that's a great point.

[sinewave]

Let's not forget the Phillies still have no 3B.

yeah, but they've got a decent rightie-leftie platoon with dobbs and helms. their defense will probably be pretty lousy, but the offense should be around league average at the position. with great hitters at defensive positions like SS and 2B they can get by with average production at 3B. that lineup will still probably challenge the Mets' for the best in the division.

[Jerry!]

edit.

[Spidey-Bat]

he's moving from an extreme hitter's park to an extreme pitcher's park and he's only played more than 140 games in a season twice. not only that, but the lineup around him will be lousy. i really have a hard time believing he's going to put up anything close to what he did last year, even if he stays healthy the whole year. i'll make a bet with you right now; both victorino and the platoon in RF will outperform rowand.
I'll take that bet.

that's a great point.
He's still going to play a bulk of his games in Philly. And he's still going to play in other hitters parks.

yeah, but they've got a decent rightie-leftie platoon with dobbs and helms. their defense will probably be pretty lousy, but the offense should be around league average at the position. with great hitters at defensive positions like SS and 2B they can get by with average production at 3B. that lineup will still probably challenge the Mets' for the best in the division.

Decent? You give a lot more credit than they deserve. Wes Helms sucks and Dobbs is a PH at best. If they're willing to take what little those 2 produce offensively, they should just get a guy like Feliz.

[Jerry!]

As much as I like Rowand, he has only played in hitter's ball parks. White Sox and Phillies. It's not a stretch to say as far as stats go, Victorino's will be better.

[Spidey-Bat]

Victorino is a Judy.


Looks like my prediction that Santana won't be moved before Friday is going to be true. If my friend was correct in that he has to be traded before Jan 25, that leaves 6 days for something to get done. Hopefully it does. I'm tired of reading rehashed rumors.

[sinewave]

I'll take that bet.

cool. the loser changes his avatar and sig to whatever the winner chooses for a month, keeping within the rules of the hype, of course.


He's still going to play a bulk of his games in Philly. And he's still going to play in other hitters parks.

yep, but his road games will be played more often in pitcher's parks. might come out even, might not.

Decent? You give a lot more credit than they deserve. Wes Helms sucks and Dobbs is a PH at best. If they're willing to take what little those 2 produce offensively, they should just get a guy like Feliz.

the way i see it, they should combine to put up numbers similar to what kouzmanoff did in SD last year, .275 avg, 15-20 hrs, 70+ rbi, 60+ runs, .750-.800 ops. dobbs put up an .808 ops against righties last year and helms put up a .790 ops against lefties. if they can repeat those numbers this year, that's not too bad. i'd even call it decent. :oldrazz: if not, there's always the free agent market. they could probably swing a deal for crede if they wanted, but he might not be much better than the platoon, if at all (.751 career ops).

[Spidey-Bat]

If you're going to bring in career OPS into this, Dobbs' is only .724, Helms' is .761.

[sinewave]

Victorino is a Judy.

eh, he's not bad. he's not great, but he's got some value. he doesn't strike out much, gets on base at a decent clip, has good speed, tons of hustle and he's starting to develop some power. at 27, he's got more upside than rowand.

[sinewave]

If you're going to bring in career OPS into this, Dobbs' is only .724, Helms' is .761.

1) that doesn't address their splits against lefties and righties
2) they play in an extreme hitters park, so that should be a factor this year

[Spidey-Bat]

1) that doesn't address their splits against lefties and righties
2) they play in an extreme hitters park, so that should be a factor this year
1) Helms has a 835 OPS vs lefties. Dobbs has a 732 OPS vs righties (only 6 pts higher than Helms').

2) Playing in a hitter's park certainly helped Helms last year. Just take a look at that amazing .246 BA.

[sinewave]

1) Helms has a 835 OPS vs lefties. Dobbs has a 732 OPS vs righties (only 6 pts higher than Helms').

are those career stats? looking at the last three years, they look like this; dobbs: .761 ops against righties; helms: .861 ops against lefties. so that would still be around the numbers i projected earlier.

2) Playing in a hitter's park certainly helped Helms last year. Just take a look at that amazing .246 BA.

actually, i show helms hit .197 at home last year. yikes! and, strangely enough, he hit .291 on the road. could be a fluke, i don't know. does CPB favor lefties or righties? still if he only plays against lefties his numbers should be much, much better.

there's much worse platoons out there than this one. they'll be alright.

[Spidey-Bat]

are those career stats? looking at the last three years, they look like this; dobbs: .761 ops against righties; helms: .861 ops against lefties. so that would still be around the numbers i projected earlier.
Those were career numbers.


actually, i show helms hit .197 at home last year. yikes! and, strangely enough, he hit .291 on the road. could be a fluke, i don't know. does CPB favor lefties or righties? still if he only plays against lefties his numbers should be much, much better.

there's much worse platoons out there than this one. they'll be alright.

CPB favors anyone who hits flyballs.

The Phillies won't win or lose the division because of the 3B platoon. The pitching is a different story.

[E. Nygma]

Helms only had about 65 starts at 3B last year. He was terrible, but had he not platooned with Dobbs and Nunez i'd have to assume his average would be better, especially at home.

The team has a losing record in those 65 starts by the way (30-35)

They were only 500. in games that he appeared in (56-56)

And while Dobbs was fairly serviceable, both he and Helms are not very reliable defensive options. Which is why i would like to see the Phils bring in Pedro Feliz. A platoon of Feliz, Dobbs and Helms would be ok, not great, but certainly better than what it is now. 3B is a weakness on this team. Thats for sure.

I'm fairly confident again that with Myers and Hamels healthy the whole year, Kyle Kendrick pitching in the majors the whole year and J.C Romero as the setup guy with a healthy Tom Gordon around in the bullpen too. The Phillies pitching will be much better than last year. The problem will be, Adam Eaton.....What a surprise.

[Spidey-Bat]

Hamels won't be healthy all year. He's been injury prone his whole career.

[Robin91939]

eh, he's not bad. he's not great, but he's got some value. he doesn't strike out much, gets on base at a decent clip, has good speed, tons of hustle and he's starting to develop some power. at 27, he's got more upside than rowand.
You forgot that he has a cannon for an arm.

I loved Aaron Roawand. He epitomized the Philadelphia spirit of hustle everyday not only with "the catch" but every time he was between the lines. He had great character, leadership, and was a clutch performer, especially last season. His numbers with runners on base/in scoring position were among the best on the team. But he wasn't terribly talented in the outfield. I've watched him play a lot. He was not great at reading balls....he'd get a lot of bad jumps. As a natural outfielder, Victorino is better, defensively. I'm more than comfortable with Shane in centerfield, though I do wish we could have retained Rowand for the intangibles and solid play he brings to the table.

As far as the bullpen goes. It's no longer that bad. It's going to need to stay healthy but the back end especially (with Romero, Gordon and Lidge) looks promising. People are forgetting that the biggest part of a good bullpen....ISN'T the bullpen. It's the starting pitching. The less innings the bullpen needs to pitch, the more effective they usually are. The move to acquire Lidge, in a sense, was the Phillies making a trade for a starting pitcher. Putting Lidge in their bullpen freed up Brett Myers a legitimate number two pitcher into their rotation.

Hammels, Myers, Moyer, Kendrick, and Durbin....I'll take that as a starting five.

And with Geoff Jenkins and So Taguchi platooning in right field that will shore it up defensively and offensively seal the hole left by Rowand. Gillick made some good moves this off-season with so little available. And with role players like Werth and Coste and studs like Rollins, Howard, and Utley...they have what it takes.

It's going to rest on staying healthy, Burrell's offensive production (it's a contract year, so I'm not that worried), and the production of the platoons.

They are my pick from the East, I expect them to do well in the playoffs this year. But again...I don't think any team can survive the sheer firepower of the American League.

-R

[Spidey-Bat]

The move to acquire Lidge, in a sense, was the Phillies making a trade for a starting pitcher. Putting Lidge in their bullpen freed up Brett Myers a legitimate number two pitcher into their rotation.
I've seen this point brought up, and it's always stupid. The Phillies could have moved Brett Myers to the rotation by...moving him to the rotation. No one was forcing them to keep him the closer until they got someone new. He didn't even pitch well enough as a closer to keep him there.

Hammels, Myers, Moyer, Kendrick, and Durbin....I'll take that as a starting five.
First, How do you misspell your team's ace's name? I can spell Schoeneweis and Mientkiewicz and they're bums.
Second, Durbin sucks. He gave up a home run every 5 innings (21 HR in 127.2 IP) and the Tigers play in a very pitcher friendly stadium. More specifically, he gave up 13 HR in 54 IP at Comerica. Just imagine Philly... He also has poor mechanics and is injury prone.

And with Geoff Jenkins and So Taguchi platooning in right field that will shore it up defensively and offensively seal the hole left by Rowand. Gillick made some good moves this off-season with so little available. And with role players like Werth and Coste and studs like Rollins, Howard, and Utley...they have what it takes.
You can't count on the offense to win you games every day. What if they run into good pitching like Jake Peavy or Dan Haren or possibly Johan Santana?

It's going to rest on staying healthy, Burrell's offensive production (it's a contract year, so I'm not that worried), and the production of the platoons.
Contract years don't translate to career years. See: Jones, Andruw. He's a lot similar (lower BA, swings for fences) to Burrell except better.

[NewYorkSpider]

National League
East:Philadelphia Phillies
Central:Milwaukee Brewers
West:Colorado Rockies
WildCard:Arizona Diamondbacks

American League:
East:Boston Redsox
Central: Detroit Tigers
West: Los Angeles Angels
Wildcard:Cleavland Indians

-R

I don't think the Rockies will win the divison. Arizona or Los Angeles should win that with the loser winning the Wild Card. Phillies shouldn't have won the divison last year, the Mets should have. No way they collapse again.

Your American League predictions look fine.

[Spidey-Bat]

Mets definitely won't collapse, even if they don't acquire Santana. They'll have a better rotation and bullpen from the start. Duaner Sanchez is back to form. He's throwing up to 96 and still has his slider. Also a lot of their relievers they drafted in the past few years are on the fast track and could be Septembe call ups.

[NewYorkSpider]

I'd say it will be the Braves or Mets winning the NL East.

[Spidey-Bat]

Eh, Braves offense is weaker this year. The SP might be better if Jurrjens has a good ST. The bullpen is still an Achilles heel. Some things never change.

[NewYorkSpider]

Yeah, the Braves offense should be weaker this season. Hudson and Smoltz should win them close to 15 games this season. Not sure how Glavine will hold up. The rest of the roatation is a toss up.

Also, does anyone have MLB2k7 for the PS3? If so, are the graphics any different from the PS2 version? I picked up Madden 08 for PS3 and thought it was the worse football game I've ever played. I hope that isn't the case for baseball.

[Spidey-Bat]

The graphics in 2k7 on the PS3 are a LOT better than PS2. Hold off on 2k7 though, 2k8 is coming out in a couple months.

[NewYorkSpider]

Good. I didn't want to pick up 2k8 if the graphics were different.

Edit: did a quick search on 2k8 and saw that Jose Reyes was on the cover. I honestly was getting sick of Jeter on it.

[Jerry!]

I'd say wait until the reviews to decide to pick it up or not. **** the graphics, if the game play isn't improved I'm not buying it. Since MVP went down it's been **** on a platter as far as baseball video games are concerned. If only EA could get the rights to the MLB back and 2K would get the rights to the NFL back, it would be perfect. Right now it's backwards. Neither installment of last year's baseball or football games were any good.

[NewYorkSpider]

I've enjoyed playing the 2K games. They have a few bugs, but all in all it's a good game. I never played one of the 2K NFL games. I heard it was a lot better.

[Dark Donnie]

Whitesox signed Dotel

[sinewave]

National League
East:Philadelphia Phillies
Central:Milwaukee Brewers
West:Colorado Rockies
WildCard:Arizona Diamondbacks

American League:
East:Boston Redsox
Central: Detroit Tigers
West: Los Angeles Angels
Wildcard:Cleavland Indians

at this point, my picks are:

AL
east: red sox
central: indians
west: angels
wild card: yankees

NL
east: phillies
central: brewers
west: dodgers
wild card: mets

[Dark Donnie]

I love how everyone discounts the Phillies to win the East, they still had to win those games last year. The Mets sucked at the end of last year and hopefully that continues again into next.

[sinewave]

:huh: i picked them to win the division.

[Dark Donnie]

I didn't see your post....everyone else :)

[sinewave]

too late. i'm taking it back. :oldrazz:

[Dark Donnie]

haha....please don't

I just can't see them being leapfrogged by not one but two teams. The Mets with the current team are certainly not better then last, obviously Santana changes them, but until then The Phillies are the best in the east.

[sinewave]

that's how i see it.

[Spidey-Bat]

haha....please don't

I just can't see them being leapfrogged by not one but two teams. The Mets with the current team are certainly not better then last, obviously Santana changes them, but until then The Phillies are the best in the east.

The Mets are better than last year. They are starting with a better rotation and bullpen. They have Pedro from the start and more improvements from Perez and Maine. Their bullpen is better with Duaner Sanchez and more importantly, no Guillermo Mota.


Scott Kazmir has salary arbitration today. It's possible the Rays won't be able to keep him (they signed Carlos Pena to hefty contract), making him a free agent.

[Dark Donnie]

The Mets are better than last year. They are starting with a better rotation and bullpen. They have Pedro from the start and more improvements from Perez and Maine. Their bullpen is better with Duaner Sanchez and more importantly, no Guillermo Mota.


Scott Kazmir has salary arbitration today. It's possible the Rays won't be able to keep him (they signed Carlos Pena to hefty contract), making him a free agent.

Isn't that Scott Kazmir trade regarded as one of the worst trades

[Spidey-Bat]

In Mets history? Yes. In Major League history? There are much worse.

[Dark Donnie]

In Mets history? Yes. In Major League history? There are much worse.

No in Mets...

[Spidey-Bat]

It's 3rd behind Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan.

My friend just said Kazmir was signed to a 1-year deal.

[Dark Donnie]

It's 3rd behind Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan.

My friend just said Kazmir was signed to a 1-year deal.

$3,785,000, one-year contract

[Spidey-Bat]

Whitesox signed Dotel

Must have been a false report b/c he's still a free agent.

[Jerry!]

Yeah the "Kenny" alarm also hasn't gone off at my house either.

[Robin91939]

I love how everyone discounts the Phillies to win the East, they still had to win those games last year. The Mets sucked at the end of last year and hopefully that continues again into next.
Yup.

People forget that the Phillies also had a collapse....theirs happened at the beginning of the season. They started off the year 3 and 10. That's GOD AWFUL!

People really need to stop with the whole "Phillies only won the East cause the Mets dropped the ball". Cause it's really bull. The Phillies opened the season 3 and 10 and went 11 and 14 for the month of April (not to mention a 15 and 13 month of May to follow).

The Phillies started their season terribly. 26-27...it took until the middle of JUNE for them to break across .500. The Phillies GAVE the division to the Mets, in my eyes. They gave it to them by playing no where near their ability for the first half of the season.

The Mets September was supposed to be this "huge collapse". They only went 14 and 14 (.500) in the month of September. No where near as bad as the 11 and 14 start the Phillies had. And guess what? 3 of those losses came at the hands of the Phillies.

The Phillies won 11, ELEVEN, of 15 games against the Mets.

The better team won the East. They both had breakdowns, they both had 162 games to have a better record than the other...the Phillies finished with the better record.

Both teams had injuries, both teams had problems, the Phillies overcame their adversity, the Mets didn't. It's the bottom line.

I'm sick of people saying that the Phillies were given the division...they fought for it, and they took it from the Mets. They beat them EIGHT times in a row down the stretch.

-R

[E. Nygma]

The Mets are better than last year. They are starting with a better rotation and bullpen. They have Pedro from the start and more improvements from Perez and Maine. Their bullpen is better with Duaner Sanchez and more importantly, no Guillermo Mota.


Scott Kazmir has salary arbitration today. It's possible the Rays won't be able to keep him (they signed Carlos Pena to hefty contract), making him a free agent.

Have Perez and Maine really shown you anything over their career to say they'll improve? I mean i like Maine, i think he's a solid pitcher. But if the Mets are counting on much out of Oliver Perez they are foolish, he's one of the most over rated pitchers i've ever seen. Especially if you get a few hits off him early in the game, he absolutely implodes.

I find it hard to say the Mets are better than they were last year, but ok.

[Spidey-Bat]

Have Perez and Maine really shown you anything over their career to say they'll improve? I mean i like Maine, i think he's a solid pitcher. But if the Mets are counting on much out of Oliver Perez they are foolish, he's one of the most over rated pitchers i've ever seen. Especially if you get a few hits off him early in the game, he absolutely implodes.

They have shown improvement. Just look at their stats over the past few years.

As for Perez, I don't know who overrates him. He has some blow up games but he has the games where he whiffs 9 or 10 and gives up only a handful of hits. He's returning back to his 2004 form. The guy went from a 6+ ERA to leading to leading the team in ERA this year. The Mets are counting on him to be a #3 and he's more than capable of being that.

I find it hard to say the Mets are better than they were last year, but ok.
Their bullpen is already better, their rotation top to bottom is better than it was last year. The lineup is more or less the same. Church is a bit better than Shawn Green, they have Castillo a full year, Wright broke out, Beltran finally had knee surgery, Alou can still hit. They need Delgado to be better and catching will be a platoon for the most part.

[Jerry!]

I think it might be enough for the NL, provided Philly doesn't start getting good pitching performances. If they do, I think they have a pretty good shot at winning the division.

[cyborg ninja 14]

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2008/01/listen_buster_r.php

Some of the best Buster-bashing you'll see. Spidey-Bat especially will love this.:woot:

[sinewave]

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2008/01/listen_buster_r.php

Some of the best Buster-bashing you'll see. Spidey-Bat especially will love this.:woot:

i read the follow up to that today, here (http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2008/01/_rich_lederer_s.php). good stuff.

[Spidey-Bat]

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2008/01/listen_buster_r.php

Some of the best Buster-bashing you'll see. Spidey-Bat especially will love this.:woot:

I'm more into bashing his ridiculous "rumors". I actually agree with Olney that Rice belongs in the HoF.

[Dark Donnie]

Must have been a false report b/c he's still a free agent.

Octavio Dotel-R- Braves Jan. 18 - 3:29 pm et


Agent Dan Horwits said Octavio Dotel has not agreed to terms with White Sox.

A report out of the Dominican Republic indicated that the two sides had reached terms on a two-year, $11 million deal. "Are they one of the teams we are talking to? Yes," Horwits said. "All the rest of the stuff is inaccurate." Horwits said the White Sox are one of six teams in the mix for Dotel. The Orioles are likely another.
Source: WhiteSox.mlb.com
Related: Orioles, White Sox

[steintym]

Octavio Dotel-R- Braves Jan. 18 - 3:29 pm et


Agent Dan Horwits said Octavio Dotel has not agreed to terms with White Sox.

A report out of the Dominican Republic indicated that the two sides had reached terms on a two-year, $11 million deal. "Are they one of the teams we are talking to? Yes," Horwits said. "All the rest of the stuff is inaccurate." Horwits said the White Sox are one of six teams in the mix for Dotel. The Orioles are likely another.
Source: WhiteSox.mlb.com
Related: Orioles, White Sox

Just listening to sports radio a little while ago and they're still saying that the signing has not taken place.

[cyborg ninja 14]

I'm more into bashing his ridiculous "rumors". I actually agree with Olney that Rice belongs in the HoF.

Regardless, he should make it in next year.

[Jerry!]

He will. Every player who has gotten over I think 66 percent of the vote in any year eventually gets in.

[Robin91939]

This got locked on the bottom of the last page...so I'm gonna post it again, because I am sick of the Phillies bashing that's taken place since they won the East.

I love how everyone discounts the Phillies to win the East, they still had to win those games last year. The Mets sucked at the end of last year and hopefully that continues again into next.
Yup.

People forget that the Phillies also had a collapse....theirs happened at the beginning of the season. They started off the year 3 and 10. That's GOD AWFUL!

People really need to stop with the whole "Phillies only won the East cause the Mets dropped the ball". Cause it's really bull. The Phillies opened the season 3 and 10 and went 11 and 14 for the month of April (not to mention a 15 and 13 month of May to follow).

The Phillies started their season terribly. 26-27...it took until the middle of JUNE for them to break across .500. The Phillies GAVE the division to the Mets, in my eyes. They gave it to them by playing no where near their ability for the first half of the season.

The Mets September was supposed to be this "huge collapse". They only went 14 and 14 (.500) in the month of September. No where near as bad as the 11 and 14 start the Phillies had. And guess what? 3 of those losses came at the hands of the Phillies.

The Phillies won 11, ELEVEN, of 15 games against the Mets.

The better team won the East. They both had breakdowns, they both had 162 games to have a better record than the other...the Phillies finished with the better record.

Both teams had injuries, both teams had problems, the Phillies overcame their adversity, the Mets didn't. It's the bottom line.

I'm sick of people saying that the Phillies were given the division...they fought for it, and they took it from the Mets. They beat them EIGHT times in a row down the stretch.

-R

[Spidey-Bat]

We don't need any more Phillies debating. No matter what way you spin it, they were eventually raped by the Rockies.

[Dark Donnie]

We don't need any more Phillies debating. No matter what way you spin it, they were eventually raped by the Rockies.

wow, they lost to the team that won the NL pennant. No matter anyway you spin the Mets got raped by the Phillies down the stretch, and were clearly the better team last year.:lips:

[Spidey-Bat]

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

I forgot to mention. Pretty much everyone was raping the Mets at the end of the season. Marlins, Nationals, Cardinals. It's not something the Phillies should be proud of if those teams could do it.

[Spidey-Bat]

Interesting article on Santana. It looks at it economically.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=ApGw4.8ITCIJZAHbCJ3D2QQRvLYF?slug=ys-gennarosantanafinal011808&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[Robin91939]

wow, they lost to the team that won the NL pennant. No matter anyway you spin the Mets got raped by the Phillies down the stretch, and were clearly the better team last year.:lips:

Amen.

-R

[Captain Planet!]

My predictions for next year

AL East: Yankees
AL Central: Tigers
AL West: Angels
AL Wild Card: Red Sox

NL East: Mets
NL Central: Cubs
NL West: Padres
NL Wild Card: Phillies

[E. Nygma]

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

I forgot to mention. Pretty much everyone was raping the Mets at the end of the season. Marlins, Nationals, Cardinals. It's not something the Phillies should be proud of if those teams could do it.

Either way, the Phillies were still a better team, and still are on paper, healthy, right now.

[Spidey-Bat]

Either way, the Phillies were still a better team, and still are on paper, healthy, right now.

The Mets were at this point last year. Don't get so high on your Phillies. They are notorious for disappointment.

[Dark Donnie]

The Mets were at this point last year. Don't get so high on your Phillies. They are notorious for disappointment.

You should do the same since The Mets had one of the most disappointing finishes of all-time.

[Spidey-Bat]

You should do the same since The Mets had one of the most disappointing finishes of all-time.

I'm not high on them. I think they're better on Opening Day this year than last year. I still don't expect them to make much noise unless they acquire Santana. I also am rational and know that the Phillies (and Braves) aren't as good as people hype them out to be. Right now, it's more that the Mets are bad enough to let the Braves and Phillies have a chance than the Phillies and Braves being good enough to compete with them.

[Dark Donnie]

Erik Bedard-S-Orioles Jan. 19 - 1:32 pm et

A Cubs source told the Sun-Times that Orioles owner Peter Angelos killed a proposed seven-for-two trade that would have sent both Erik Bedard and Brian Roberts to Chicago.

Other sources have indicated that this was never on the table to be killed, though it's likely that the possibility of adding both Bedard and Roberts in the same deal is something the two sides have discussed. The Cubs would almost certainly have to part with Felix Pie in a deal for both. Their discussions for Roberts alone have center around players like Sean Marshall and Sean Gallagher.
Source: Chicago Sun-Times
Related: Brian Roberts, Cubs

[sinewave]

Interesting article on Santana. It looks at it economically.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=ApGw4.8ITCIJZAHbCJ3D2QQRvLYF?slug=ys-gennarosantanafinal011808&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

good article. i made the same basic points weeks ago without the numbers and graphs and was called crazy and arrogant. :hyper:

[Robin91939]

I'm not high on them. I think they're better on Opening Day this year than last year. I still don't expect them to make much noise unless they acquire Santana. I also am rational and know that the Phillies (and Braves) aren't as good as people hype them out to be. Right now, it's more that the Mets are bad enough to let the Braves and Phillies have a chance than the Phillies and Braves being good enough to compete with them.
I don't understand this.....

The Mets were what? Good for two of the last 10 years? Now it's suddenly like it is the Mets division to win each year and if they don't it's because they didn't play to their ability...not because the other team is better?

The Phillies and Braves, I don't know if you remember, have dominated the Eastern division for the last decade. The Marlins squeezed a Wildcard in there in that time, 2003,(winning the World Series to boot) but the Braves and Phillies have finished first and second almost every year of the new century. It's been the Phillies who have had disappointing meltdowns in the last month for the last few years.

The Astros passed the Phillies for the wildcard by one game in the last week of the 2005 season. Or the following year when they missed the playoffs by three games, again- edged out in the final frames of the season.

They've been a solid team for the last 8 years. The Braves have been the team to beat for the last 15 years. The Mets simply weren't anything. There were two or three years in the last 15 years that they did well. Two of them being this and last year and the other being their World Series defeat in I believe '99.

When the Phillies fizzled in the final stages...the fans didn't say, "Oh well their still better than Houston...we just didn't play as well as we should have".

They may not have played to their ability- but that doesn't rule out the fact that the other team played better. Playing to your ability, not making errors, staying healthy, pitching well, hitting with runner in scoring position, clutch performance......it's all what makes a good team. Each team has 162 games to prove that they are better than the others. Baseball is a game that is VERY fair in its playoff choices, there is PLENTY (more than enough) time to separate the weaker and stronger teams, more than in any other sport.

I'm sick of people saying that it was the fact that the Mets simply didn't play well that gave the Phillies the crown. Good teams play well. If you play badly that many times.....you're probably not a good team.

Think about it.

-R

[Spidey-Bat]

I don't understand this.....

The Mets were what? Good for two of the last 10 years? Now it's suddenly like it is the Mets division to win each year and if they don't it's because they didn't play to their ability...not because the other team is better?
In this case, no. The Mets choked. The Phillies merely took advantage of a choking team that had come apart from within due to various internal problems.

The Phillies and Braves, I don't know if you remember, have dominated the Eastern division for the last decade. The Marlins squeezed a Wildcard in there in that time, 2003,(winning the World Series to boot) but the Braves and Phillies have finished first and second almost every year of the new century. It's been the Phillies who have had disappointing meltdowns in the last month for the last few years.
I could care less about those years. I don't care when Schuerholz was running the Braves, Ed Wade was running the Phillies, and Phillips/Duquette ran the Mets. This is today. You now have three totally different front offices, plus an eventual contender in Washington with a darn good manager and a pitching coach who has all the skills but none of the hype of Rick Peterson. I care about Frank Wren, Pat Gillick, and Omar Minaya, the current representatives of the teams. And they don't figure at all into your argument.

The Astros passed the Phillies for the wildcard by one game in the last week of the 2005 season. Or the following year when they missed the playoffs by three games, again- edged out in the final frames of the season.
Again, do I care? The Phillies deserved the WC that year, anyway.

They've been a solid team for the last 8 years. The Braves have been the team to beat for the last 15 years. The Mets simply weren't anything. There were two or three years in the last 15 years that they did well. Two of them being this and last year and the other being their World Series defeat in I believe '99.
Again, you totally and completely fail to realize that teams don't run themselves. They are run by individuals. And those individuals have all changed since 2004.

When the Phillies fizzled in the final stages...the fans didn't say, "Oh well their still better than Houston...we just didn't play as well as we should have".
I'm sure there were Phillies fans, many Phillies fans, who thought they were better than the Astros. In baseball is the better teams don't always win whether its more games, a playoff berth, a pennant, or a championship. (Eg. The 1962 Dodgers, 1969 Cubs, 1973 Reds, 1988 Mets, 1990 Oakland A's, and 2006 Detroit Tigers.)

I'm sick of people saying that it was the fact that the Mets simply didn't play well that gave the Phillies the crown. Good teams play well. If you play badly that many times.....you're probably not a good team.

Think about it.

-R
That's the problem. I've thought about it. You don't seem to have any concept of the teams' front offices or players changing or internal problems or really any given intangible that affects a how a baseball team functions. No, I want YOU to think about it.

BTW, do you plan on responding to my comments earlier?
http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=13839954&postcount=2449